Author Topic: Discussion Guilt vs Remorse #2  (Read 53604 times)

Offline stayedTopic starter

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Discussion Guilt vs Remorse #2
« on: August 12, 2013, 08:24:38 AM »
New Quilt (ooops) Guilt vs Remorse, by popular demand...  ;D

Old thread...
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2730.new;topicseen#new


I found this very helpful, 100% my H, it explains much:

1. Real remorse means seeing the pain you caused someone, and reaching out to make it better. Feeling bad for the person in pain.
A person who feels guilt rather than remorse sees the pain of others (that they inflicted) as judgment, condemnation, and feels bad for themselves. What they feel for the person in pain is anger - anger for showing them what they don't want to see (the consequences of their actions).
2. Someone who feels remorse for doing a bad thing will always consider the thing they did to be bad.
Bad feelings associated with guilt are situational, and change with circumstances.
3. Someone really remorseful doesn't want to repeat a harmful action - they aren't even tempted to. Real remorse means never doing it again, self accountability.
Someone who feels guilty can still repeat the actions causing the guilt, precisely to escape the guilt. The only way to end feelings of guilt is self accountability - guilt happens when someone runs from it.
4. Remorse says "I'm sorry I hurt you".
Guilt says "stop making me feel bad for what I did".
5. Remorse cares more about the one wounded. They don't care about others holding them accountable because they already hold themselves accountable.
Guilt worries more about how the wounded one makes them appear in the eyes of others. They feel their self image is being attacked. They do worry about others holding them accountable because they shirk self accountability.
6. Remorse means learning from one's harmful actions.
Guilt means not even facing what one has done, so learning from it isn't likely.
7. Remorse means leaving the harmful actions one did in the past, but not forgetting them.
Guilt carries harmful actions around, keeping them ever present, by attempting to avoid dealing with them. They will always be ever present, a thorn in ones side, looming large and affecting one's life until faced and dealt with. This is self inflicted torture - although a person struggling with guilt will blame others.
8. Remorse leads to the ability to forgive the self.
Guilt leads to self hatred.
9. Remorse is action, actively doing something about the harm one caused.
Guilt is feeling self pity and doing nothing about the harm one caused.
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« Last Edit: August 12, 2013, 02:14:10 PM by stayed »
Married 39yrs.
Reconciled July 5, 2006

"Don't be so open minded your brains fall out".  by Stephen A. Kallis, Jr.
"We believe marriage is sacred, but it is not our job to save marriages; it is our goal to empower each of you to save your own marriage."

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Offline fidelle

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2013, 01:28:08 PM »
Great post, Stayed!! Thank you. Sadly, I think it's more often the LBS that feels remorse for the dead M and the things we could have done differently . Guilt is such a toxic emotion, isn't it? At least  as  the article says, there is growth through remorse. Let's hope our MLCers get there one day, if only for their sakes
"Never expect. Never assume. Never ask. And never demand. Just let it be. If it's meant to be, it will happen."

"Love is not love Which alters when it alteration finds" Shakespeare, Sonnet 116

Offline stayedTopic starter

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2013, 01:36:55 PM »
I actually think that "guilt" holds our MLCer back.  They feel guilt, then they figure, in for a penny, in for a pound.  So they compound it.  Then they get angry, because we are MAKING them feel guilty. 

Yep, USELESS, TOXIC emotion!  Does more damage then good.

Hugs Stayed
Married 39yrs.
Reconciled July 5, 2006

"Don't be so open minded your brains fall out".  by Stephen A. Kallis, Jr.
"We believe marriage is sacred, but it is not our job to save marriages; it is our goal to empower each of you to save your own marriage."

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Offline fidelle

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2013, 01:58:37 PM »
"They feel guilt, then they figure, in for a penny, in for a pound.  So they compound it.  Then they get angry, because we are MAKING them feel guilty."
That's SO true!! My H gave the reason for being unable to come back to the marriage that he was too guilty and would lose all self-respect if he came back. Better have another affair..that certainly improves your self-worth  ::) ::)
"Never expect. Never assume. Never ask. And never demand. Just let it be. If it's meant to be, it will happen."

"Love is not love Which alters when it alteration finds" Shakespeare, Sonnet 116

Offline kikki

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2013, 02:00:46 PM »
Quote
New Quilt vs Remorse, by popular demand

The typo had me chuckling stayed - we could all do with a new quilt  :)

Offline fidelle

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2013, 02:03:32 PM »
Hahahaha , Kikki, I hadn't even noticed! New quilts for all those whose MLCers are behaving like little sheets  ;D ;D ;D
"Never expect. Never assume. Never ask. And never demand. Just let it be. If it's meant to be, it will happen."

"Love is not love Which alters when it alteration finds" Shakespeare, Sonnet 116

Offline kikki

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2013, 02:04:13 PM »
 ;D ;D ;D 

Offline stayedTopic starter

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2013, 02:17:32 PM »
Lol, Freudian slip!  It was my guilt about this great big quilt I have laying over the couch, waiting for me to finish quilting, hehehe.  Quilting in the summer at least the lap quilting I do (my big frame is back home in storage)... just too hot, to have it laying on my lap.

Lol Stayed
Married 39yrs.
Reconciled July 5, 2006

"Don't be so open minded your brains fall out".  by Stephen A. Kallis, Jr.
"We believe marriage is sacred, but it is not our job to save marriages; it is our goal to empower each of you to save your own marriage."

Stayed Husband Letter
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Offline kikki

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2013, 02:20:00 PM »
Ah, it's speaking to you stayed  ;)

Offline riverbirch

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2013, 03:08:36 PM »
 I don't know if my H will feel remorse. The man has never said I'm sorry for anything to me any way. If he does  feel remorse ever and admits it,I will be floored.
Me 52
H (whatever he is) 53
D for financial reasons March 2012
Started seeing massive change over the summer 2012
Left end of October 2012
Started coming home thanksgiving 2013
Home now. March 2014
Believe ow is gone
Probably going through this for years
OW discovered Oct.23,2013,old GF from before we met at the age of 16!
Left again Oct. 20 2015
Came back two weeks later
Still here 01/17 not done yet

Offline Phoenix67

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2013, 04:55:27 PM »
Fantastic post, thank you for sharing.  My H frequently says he knows he's put me in a painful situation and with the kids stated he's just 'not happy' (poor baby - waa) and nothing is my fault.  But in reading this post I remembered that what got H into this place and what contributes to his alcoholism is his inability to show anger.  His anger looks more like a victim that feels guilty but 'just couldn't help' himself.  Remorse is definitely NOT what he is displaying.
Me 46, H 45, M 15, T16, S21, D19
Bomb drop: 7-4-13 EA, just not happy
He moved to the basement apartment of our house.

Offline Stillpraying

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2013, 06:09:34 PM »
I confess!
I too am guilty of being lazy with my quilting... :( :(
BD 18th Oct 2009
exH Left home 9th April 2011
Split with OW3 (fiance) Jan 2016. (no break between OWs).

Offline stayedTopic starter

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2013, 11:46:47 PM »
I confess!
I too am guilty of being lazy with my quilting... :( :(

I love quilting Stillpraying.  If I had my old floor frame, I could stand at it, or even pull up a chair and sit at the frame stitching away, but I didn't bring it with me and having a big, hot, quilted blanket on my lap in 25-30C temps, is simply not an option.  So a bit of lazy, yes... but mostly, a legitimate excuse hehehe. 

Riverbirch, did you EVER believe your h would do what he is doing to you and the kids now?  Did you ever think he would cheat, lie and be outright nasty to you.  Somehow, I don't think so.  SO, do not rule out TRUE REMORSE.... this is a pretty severe episode in these ppls. lives.  I know from discussing this with my h, his CRUELTY AND NASTINESS, still shocks him to his core.  He knows he did all of these things, he KNEW he was doing them at the time.  He admits, he DIDN'T EVEN TRY TO STOP doing them!

This is one very weird affliction.  Very, very nasty and disgusting.   I honestly believe, anybody with a HEART looks back on this event at some point with... sincere remorse. 

Keep the faith.  Believe in yourself.  You will come out of this ahead, if you focus on yourself.  It is their REMORSE, if they don't find it within themselves, then they really are not worth having. 

Hugs Stayed
Married 39yrs.
Reconciled July 5, 2006

"Don't be so open minded your brains fall out".  by Stephen A. Kallis, Jr.
"We believe marriage is sacred, but it is not our job to save marriages; it is our goal to empower each of you to save your own marriage."

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Offline riverbirch

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2013, 07:05:20 AM »
[quotedid you EVER believe your h would do what he is doing to you and the kids now?  Did you ever think he would cheat, lie and be outright nasty to you][/quote]

Never thought he would walk out on us the way he did or put us through any of this. He hated lying, cheating and all that. He was very straight and narrow. He NEVER lied EVER. He's also retired military. One of the guys that did not approve of the actions of others in the service with him.

 I had been through my own crisis in 2004, including depression and a brief affair. Once the fog lifted and the obsession of the OM, went away, I was devastated by my own actions and what it did to my H.I understand a lot of the description of true remorse. I made a vow to NEVER do anything like that again. It can't ever put someone through that mess again.

I pray he isn't going to be someone who never comes out of this and will return to his family. I pray he doesn't end up being someone who cannot show true remorse. I pray he comes out of this soon and doesn't cause more damage and it's too late for a reconciliation.


I am working on a quick ,panel, baby quilt for my niece at the moment. I would love to do a regular quilt. :)
Me 52
H (whatever he is) 53
D for financial reasons March 2012
Started seeing massive change over the summer 2012
Left end of October 2012
Started coming home thanksgiving 2013
Home now. March 2014
Believe ow is gone
Probably going through this for years
OW discovered Oct.23,2013,old GF from before we met at the age of 16!
Left again Oct. 20 2015
Came back two weeks later
Still here 01/17 not done yet

Offline stayedTopic starter

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2013, 07:23:19 AM »
You have a better understanding of this riverbirch then we do then.  It can be done, you did it, lets just stay positive and trust that he will get through it.  In the meantime... focus on yourself.  You know how strong you will need to be to get through this.

A quick panel baby quilt... is there any such thing, hehehe.  I have 11 grandchildren... so have completed one for each of them.  Plus have made a few others for friends or kids friends etc.  I am working on a crazy quilt, for a friend of ours.  She had a bit 50th. b-day party over a year ago... and I am not about 2/3rds. quilted.  It has turned out to be much bigger then I had originally planned... so it has taken a while to quilt.  Just for the record, I hand quilt... no machine quilting for Stayed old girl, hehehe. 

Just go ahead and get started.  A regular quilt is no different then a baby quilt, only BIGGER hehehe. 

Hugs Stayed
Married 39yrs.
Reconciled July 5, 2006

"Don't be so open minded your brains fall out".  by Stephen A. Kallis, Jr.
"We believe marriage is sacred, but it is not our job to save marriages; it is our goal to empower each of you to save your own marriage."

Stayed Husband Letter
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The Mentor Program
LBS SCRIPT

Offline Songanddance

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2013, 09:27:34 AM »
Never thought he would walk out on us the way he did or put us through any of this. He hated lying, cheating and all that. He was very straight and narrow.
I had been through my own crisis in 2004, including depression and a brief affair. Once the fog lifted and the obsession of the OM, went away, I was devastated by my own actions and what it did to my H.I understand a lot of the description of true remorse. I made a vow to NEVER do anything like that again. It can't ever put someone through that mess again.
I pray he isn't going to be someone who never comes out of this and will return to his family. I pray he doesn't end up being someone who cannot show true remorse. I pray he comes out of this soon and doesn't cause more damage and it's too late for a reconciliation


Riverbirch - I understand too. I had PND and had a 10 day stupid fling in 1998 but H took me back and swept it under the carpet and never discussed it so we never really shared my remorse and it manifested as modified behaviour on my part to show H for the mext 15 years how sorry I was. As his MLC started before BD he used that bitter memory as his guiding force and apparently started checking up on me, following me etc... he was so convinced that I was still carrying on with someone. The guilt I have carried is huge and will never truly go away.
However now H has OW he blames this one incident in his past as his feeble attempt to justify his adultery for the last 6 months before and since BD.
He knows it's wrong "but it feels right" (all signs of addiction) and at BD chose to tell me how hurt he was and how much he cried and the pain he felt. I am so sorry that I did that to him but I fear that he too may never really feel the remorse because he believes he was the victim all along and he seems to have no conscience in insisting he stay at home but see OW and take her on holiday.
If he does feel remorse I don't know that I will have the strength to help him because he really will be a broken man and pride will stop him from ever revealing his true feelings. I want to be able to help him but I know  what he will have to go through and know that he is a weak man with many demons.

Offline riverbirch

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2013, 04:56:49 PM »
I don't know Stayed. I am different than he is. I always believed I loved him more than he loved me. I am also more forgiving than he as well. When he first left he blamed all this on my A, back in 2004. I knew it wasn't all my fault, but he had to bring it up. Maybe I did too much damage to him.

Songanddance

I got the same thing from my H. He also brought up my A when I asked him if he was going to find another woman. He said well you found such and such, meaning he was justified to do as he pleases. Well Mr. Camper King had a revenge A and was very mean during it. So wasn't she. So to me there is no justification.
Me 52
H (whatever he is) 53
D for financial reasons March 2012
Started seeing massive change over the summer 2012
Left end of October 2012
Started coming home thanksgiving 2013
Home now. March 2014
Believe ow is gone
Probably going through this for years
OW discovered Oct.23,2013,old GF from before we met at the age of 16!
Left again Oct. 20 2015
Came back two weeks later
Still here 01/17 not done yet

Offline CallanG

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #17 on: August 14, 2013, 07:37:03 AM »

Thanks for posting that again Stayed . My H is saying sorry a lot at the moment but I would say it is still how this has made him feel rather than how it makes me feel .

I have seen a couple of small glimpses of remorse but that is all .
xx

Offline stayedTopic starter

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2013, 08:21:07 AM »
Sadly that is very common CallanG.  In time, he should get to true remorse.  If he doesn't, you may have to re-examine what you want...

hugs Stayed
Married 39yrs.
Reconciled July 5, 2006

"Don't be so open minded your brains fall out".  by Stephen A. Kallis, Jr.
"We believe marriage is sacred, but it is not our job to save marriages; it is our goal to empower each of you to save your own marriage."

Stayed Husband Letter
The Hero's Spouse Mission Statement
Survival Instructions for Newbies
The Mentor Program
LBS SCRIPT

Offline Duthla

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2013, 10:50:12 AM »
"They feel guilt, then they figure, in for a penny, in for a pound.  So they compound it.  Then they get angry, because we are MAKING them feel guilty."
That's SO true!! My H gave the reason for being unable to come back to the marriage that he was too guilty and would lose all self-respect if he came back. Better have another affair..that certainly improves your self-worth


Couldn't agree more! In my situation my H followed this:
Step One: Start accusing me of having an affair whenever I talk with/visit with a member of the opposite gender
Step Two: Get drunk one night, verbally abuse me, be sexually aggressive and then choke me. (our S7 witnessed the physical violence)
Step Three: Blame the booze. Say he doesn't remember. Wonders if I attacked him first.  :o
Step Four: Promise me, his parents and the Child Protection worker that he will go for counselling.
Step Five: Have an affair with 24 year old employee. Invite her Holiday functions at our home. Be miserable towards all family members throughout the holidays.
Step Six: Make the decision to leave the marriage and family home. No turning back...done deal.

I think, perhaps, the immense guilt happened after the physical attack (which he blamed me for) and then did what Stayed said. Compounded it. "I messed up to a place I never thought I'd go, so I may as well justify it with ???? and just keep on going."

H still blames. Still believes all things are happening TO him and he has NO ROLE in his current demise. Still with OW and her son and "happy". Good grief....the blinders he wears are mighty LARGE!  8)


Online Thunder

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2013, 09:49:11 AM »
My x only said he was sorry twice.  Once (back in February) when he told me he was joining a dating service (didn't want to lie to me when I asked where he was going)  ::)  I got quiet and he said...you seem mad or hurt (dah).  I said...no, I'm not mad.
After a few minutes he said...I'm sorry if I hurt you, I didn't mean to.  I swear he seriously did not think this would phase me.

Then another time about a year ago I made a comment on how these last 2 years have been the worst years of my life.  Again he was shocked and asked why.  I said...because I'm losing my H of many years who I still care about.
Very quietly he said...I'm sorry.

Both times I realized how screwed up in the head he really is.  How they can become so clueless is beyond me.

With her permission, a quote from a recovered MLCer: 
From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did.

Offline I believe in angels

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #21 on: August 19, 2013, 10:39:38 AM »
Hi s2364.  It is because they have no feelings for others or themselves, other than making themselves feel temporarily 'happy'.  THey dont want to know that we hurt, but i believe deep down they know we hurt, but they dont want to acknowledge it. it hurts a lot, but we must detach. x

Online Searching4Answers

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #22 on: August 19, 2013, 10:54:57 AM »
It is amazing isn't it. My H has said he is sorry more in the last year than through the whole relationship; unfortuantely, I don't see any remorse in it.

How they can become so clueless is beyond me.

Agreed, it is so obvious that we would be hurt by their actions but they can't see it.
We all do damage. Character is determined by how we repair it.


BD - December 2012
OW1 confirmed - December 2012 on-and-off for 34 months and counting (still refers to her as just a 'friend')
Wants to live like roommates - November 2013
I moved out - April 2015
H is still checking the anchor

Offline 31andcounting

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2013, 01:13:03 PM »
I believe I may be seeing remorse now instead of so much guilt.  Funny you would think you would know for sure ???
My H has become softer, more caring, more concerned for my thoughts, my day and even my aches and pains??  It is nice don't get me wrong and I truly hope it continues, its been a long time coming :)  But to be honest I am absolutely sure he is not whole yet, but I do see more remorseful actions and words, more in his actions than his words, he does not say he is sorry.  He has said it.  The guilt was so obvious to me, the remorse is a little harder to figure out at times.  There is a definite difference between the two.
31andcounting
Hurting people hurt people :(

Offline stayedTopic starter

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2013, 01:21:17 PM »
Sounds promising 31andcounting.  I think we are afraid that we might be trying to read more into what we are seeing, then is actually there.  WE are so "gun shy".  I think we had been back together for a good 3 years when I went, ooooooooooooo I think he is here to stay.  Oh my goodness.  I had spent all that time waiting for him to bolt out the door OR return to his mood swings. 

Keep the faith!   ;D

hugs Stayed
Married 39yrs.
Reconciled July 5, 2006

"Don't be so open minded your brains fall out".  by Stephen A. Kallis, Jr.
"We believe marriage is sacred, but it is not our job to save marriages; it is our goal to empower each of you to save your own marriage."

Stayed Husband Letter
The Hero's Spouse Mission Statement
Survival Instructions for Newbies
The Mentor Program
LBS SCRIPT

Offline 31andcounting

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #25 on: August 23, 2013, 06:51:52 AM »
Thanks Stayed, I think it sounds promissing also.  Slow, Slow process for sure, but better that way!  Too fast and I would be spinning and unsure I think! I am definitely "gun shy" and I would rather just let go and live it, still working on that but maybe better that way too, who else besides me is going to make sure I'm alright??!!  I have the faith!
31 :)
Hurting people hurt people :(

Offline stayedTopic starter

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #26 on: August 23, 2013, 11:53:43 AM »
Oh yea 31, I didn't even realize I was holding my breath.  Can't believe I wasn't 6ft. under hehehe.  I simply decided to live my life, if he was still there with me, THEN all right!  Been 7 years now... lol  can you believe that?  hehehe... I can't... I honestly thought our marriage was over...I was wrong... heeeeeeeee hawwwwwwwwwww!

hugs Stayed 
Married 39yrs.
Reconciled July 5, 2006

"Don't be so open minded your brains fall out".  by Stephen A. Kallis, Jr.
"We believe marriage is sacred, but it is not our job to save marriages; it is our goal to empower each of you to save your own marriage."

Stayed Husband Letter
The Hero's Spouse Mission Statement
Survival Instructions for Newbies
The Mentor Program
LBS SCRIPT

Offline riverbirch

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #27 on: August 23, 2013, 03:45:47 PM »
7 years. That is so awesome. :)
Me 52
H (whatever he is) 53
D for financial reasons March 2012
Started seeing massive change over the summer 2012
Left end of October 2012
Started coming home thanksgiving 2013
Home now. March 2014
Believe ow is gone
Probably going through this for years
OW discovered Oct.23,2013,old GF from before we met at the age of 16!
Left again Oct. 20 2015
Came back two weeks later
Still here 01/17 not done yet

Offline 31andcounting

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #28 on: August 24, 2013, 07:43:15 AM »
Stayed it seems like H wants to make me happy. Always planning something fun or somewhere to go?? He always was a planner(except when he was deep in the tunnel for a year+) but this seems different. Not sure what to make of it?? When I said what happens when we just have "real life" and he answered "this is real life. We are only 54 so why not?" I'm not complaining but I do find myself "thinking" about why way too much! ! My issue.....maybe its part of his processing. Doesn't feel like avoidance like before. He seems more content with whatever the activity is. I feel sometimes it is remorse by action.
31
Hurting people hurt people :(

Offline Trustandlove

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #29 on: August 27, 2013, 11:47:35 PM »
I've read that basic guilt vs remorse piece many times during this extremely long mess, and the one thing that continues to  jump out at me is

Quote
They feel guilt, then they figure, in for a penny, in for a pound.  So they compound it.  Then they get angry, because we are MAKING them feel guilty.

My H has articulated feeling guilty; unfortunately he hasn't moved beyond that.  I do see him continuing to be angry; actually much more so now than in the earlier years.    And now that anger is being directed towards our children as well. 

The other thing he has articulated is point 4 of that list:

Quote
"stop making me feel bad for what I did" 

This basic list really does say it all about so much. 

And yes, I continue to wish that there was something someone could do to move him out of guilt and to remorse.  We all do. 

Offline Anjae

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #30 on: August 28, 2013, 12:00:53 AM »
Quote
They feel guilt, then they figure, in for a penny, in for a pound.  So they compound it.  Then they get angry, because we are MAKING them feel guilty.

But at a point we no longer make them feel guilty. Several of us have divorce them or barely contact them. Yet some don't seem to manage to pass from anger to remorse.

The other thing he has articulated is point 4 of that list:

Quote
"stop making me feel bad for what I did" 

The version Mr J gave me was "I don't want to have to pay for this for the rest of my life". I'm afraid if he does not end his crisis he will. He has been paying for it, even if not paying me alimony, for years. Light does not seem to get into his brain.

He did apologise after BD and after OW1 was not more. He said he knew what he had done was wrong and that he had dealt with the situation the wrong way, that OW was not the wrong approach. He said it was all his fault. Somehow he quick forgot that and carry on. 
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline Trustandlove

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #31 on: August 28, 2013, 12:04:13 AM »
Yes, I've got that as well -- in moments of clarity my H has apologised, but then either got scared or something else happened , and he went right back to the anger.   

When I wrote the bit about us "making" them feel bad, I didn't mean that we were doing so, it's them that is saying that, in order to avoid looking at their own behaviour. 

That's what I meant about keeping on compounding it.    My H has also said he doesn't want to be the villain in this and all sorts of things like that.  He keeps on wanting to make it a joint decision and is angry that I refuse to do so. 

And no, my H hasn't passed from guilt to remorse, not remotely.  Seemed close at a few points, but now is far away again. 

Offline panda

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #32 on: August 28, 2013, 03:43:01 AM »
Yes, I've got that as well -- in moments of clarity my H has apologised, but then either got scared or something else happened , and he went right back to the anger.   


Right back after I found out about OW, H said how sorry he was and he did not know why he did it but he was infatuated and she made him feel good.  Said he realised it was a mistake and would prove it to me - promised not to go out drinking, or see OW.  He explained he had ended it and OW was very upset it was over - 3 days later, he was out again with OW and then deep in tunnel after that, no light in sight.  Not a sorry or any kind of clarity really, since.
BD Dec 11
BD Feb 13 - OW discovered
Moved out Nov 13 to live with OW

Online Searching4Answers

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #33 on: August 28, 2013, 08:43:52 AM »
Right back after I found out about OW, H said how sorry he was and he did not know why he did it but he was infatuated and she made him feel good.  Said he realised it was a mistake and would prove it to me - promised not to go out drinking, or see OW.  He explained he had ended it and OW was very upset it was over - 3 days later, he was out again with OW and then deep in tunnel after that, no light in sight.  Not a sorry or any kind of clarity really, since.

It seems like they have a moment of clarity and say 'i'm sorry' because they know that is what is expected but don't truly mean it; then they figure 'i said i'm sorry now i can go back and do what i want'. They think that the orginal 'i'm sorry' covers all past, present and future instances so they just carry on.
We all do damage. Character is determined by how we repair it.


BD - December 2012
OW1 confirmed - December 2012 on-and-off for 34 months and counting (still refers to her as just a 'friend')
Wants to live like roommates - November 2013
I moved out - April 2015
H is still checking the anchor

Offline Anjae

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #34 on: August 28, 2013, 02:23:22 PM »
Thanks for the clarification, Trustandlove. I think they meant it when they have a moment of clarity and say I'm sorry. It is not the I'm sorry of repent/remorse but they are really sorry.

Then the fog comes over again, or something takes them deeper again and it is back to anger and blame us.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2013, 01:46:42 PM by Anjae »
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline panda

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #35 on: August 29, 2013, 02:27:39 AM »
Tnahks for the clarification, Trusandlove. I think they meant it when they have a moment of clarity and say I'm sorry. It is not the I'm sorry of repent/remorse but they are really sorry.

Then the fog comes over again, or something takes them deeper again and it is back to anger and blame us.

So, how does the fog come on again ?  In my case it literally happened within hours!!!  Was it OW using her charm and manipulation?  Or is it something that the MLCer brings on themselves due to the infatuation a new relationship brings?

I have mentioned to H some time later about the fact he originally knew he was doing something wrong - he kind of remembers it, but then said 'Yeah, you don't want to worry about that, forget it!!' - nice, only in MLC eh?
BD Dec 11
BD Feb 13 - OW discovered
Moved out Nov 13 to live with OW

Offline Anjae

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #36 on: August 29, 2013, 01:55:15 PM »
From what he know it has to do with the depression. Early on Mr J would be in and out of fog in minutes when around me. And early last here he told me first that he still had my books, a few seconds latter that, not he did not had them. We were talking on the phone, he was at his work. The fog coming and going has nothing to do with OW.
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #37 on: September 01, 2013, 09:59:54 AM »
This seems to be a reoccuring theme with H; at BD he said that he was going to brutally selfish, not having consideration for anyone but himself. He warned at the time that this would be difficult for me and maybe I should leave. Obviously, I didn't leave and because I didn't leave he has taken this as 'it is my choice to go through the pain'. H has brought this up numerous times when I express my pain to him saying that 'i warned you'. Do you think that his 'warning me' was a way to side step responsibility for what he is doing?   
We all do damage. Character is determined by how we repair it.


BD - December 2012
OW1 confirmed - December 2012 on-and-off for 34 months and counting (still refers to her as just a 'friend')
Wants to live like roommates - November 2013
I moved out - April 2015
H is still checking the anchor

Offline Ready2Transform

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #38 on: September 01, 2013, 10:16:49 AM »
Quote
Do you think that his 'warning me' was a way to side step responsibility for what he is doing? 

Absolutely, but it comes from the perspective of someone whose brain is not functioning properly.  When taken out of the context of MLC, it makes no sense.
"Unconditional love is the highest of high standards, and while we are letting go of our need to control the process of anyone else, we are taking within our lives complete accountability for our own experience."

http://seriousvanity.com/how-to-cultivate-unconditional-love-and-change-the-world/

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #39 on: September 01, 2013, 10:23:21 AM »
Quote
Do you think that his 'warning me' was a way to side step responsibility for what he is doing? 

Absolutely, but it comes from the perspective of someone whose brain is not functioning properly.  When taken out of the context of MLC, it makes no sense.

Granted, I am responsible for my own actions; so staying is on me but every time he brings this up I think to myself "how could anyone possible fathom what that warning meant". So yes I stayed but the decision was not an informed one!

H says that he doesn't want me to leave but if I need to leave that he fully supports my decision and will always help me however he can. Another side step??
We all do damage. Character is determined by how we repair it.


BD - December 2012
OW1 confirmed - December 2012 on-and-off for 34 months and counting (still refers to her as just a 'friend')
Wants to live like roommates - November 2013
I moved out - April 2015
H is still checking the anchor

Offline Ready2Transform

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #40 on: September 01, 2013, 12:02:19 PM »
H says that he doesn't want me to leave but if I need to leave that he fully supports my decision and will always help me however he can. Another side step??

Absolutely.  :)  Makes him seem like a nice guy!  Do what works best for you, always - it will not hinder their crisis.
"Unconditional love is the highest of high standards, and while we are letting go of our need to control the process of anyone else, we are taking within our lives complete accountability for our own experience."

http://seriousvanity.com/how-to-cultivate-unconditional-love-and-change-the-world/

Offline stayedTopic starter

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #41 on: September 22, 2013, 01:27:24 AM »
Stayed it seems like H wants to make me happy. Always planning something fun or somewhere to go?? He always was a planner(except when he was deep in the tunnel for a year+) but this seems different. Not sure what to make of it?? When I said what happens when we just have "real life" and he answered "this is real life. We are only 54 so why not?" I'm not complaining but I do find myself "thinking" about why way too much! ! My issue.....maybe its part of his processing. Doesn't feel like avoidance like before. He seems more content with whatever the activity is. I feel sometimes it is remorse by action.
31
Great discussion my friends.  Remorse is a very tricky thing to be sure you are "seeing", plus, it is impossible not to afraid.  Afraid of reading too much into it.  Afraid of those EXPECTATIONS that we have all been told to "ditch"!  So, whens the time right to have "EXPECTATIONS"? 

I highlighted your comments 31andcounting, because that is the sort of thing my h does.  He is a planner.  He plans wonderful surprises, with a lot of detail too.  Now, I don't want to give you FALSE EXPECTATIONS just because our spouses APPEAR to handle their remorse and regret similarly, but just wanted to comment, that my h does that as well.  It took my h a good year after returning for him to FINALLY realize and "begin" to own what he had done, to me and the kids.  I emphasize "begin" because it was a good year after that, before he actually seemed to SEE just how badly he had behaved throughout those long years. 

The year after return is when our marriage FINALLY began to look like it JUST MIGHT MAKE IT!   I believe he did have "regrets" but I truly believe, if I had just let it all go, had decided that I can't keep on and on about this, that I was "rubbing" in his bad behaviour, I truly feel we would not be where we are today.  That being said, I do realize and understand that everybody is different.  I think in our "hearts" we know what we "need" to be able to remain married and continue to rebuild. 

Some people really don't care, all they want is their MARRIAGE back... good, bad, indifferent, they just want things/their lives, to be as near to how they were as possible.  End of story.  For me, simply returning was not enough.  To each's own... they say.

Hugs Stayed
« Last Edit: September 23, 2013, 02:22:12 AM by stayed »
Married 39yrs.
Reconciled July 5, 2006

"Don't be so open minded your brains fall out".  by Stephen A. Kallis, Jr.
"We believe marriage is sacred, but it is not our job to save marriages; it is our goal to empower each of you to save your own marriage."

Stayed Husband Letter
The Hero's Spouse Mission Statement
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Offline OceanLady

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #42 on: September 22, 2013, 01:20:30 PM »
Searching...I believe that they do warn us in their own way.  My H, now xh, told me that he had to go because he could feel the anger building and I believe that he did not want me or our son around when the Monster arrived.  Neither one of us actually knew what was about to happen.  He has been gone for 39 months now and still has the same OW; they have never lived together though so this will take longer than if they did.  The anger has subsided greatly but still nowhere in sight and very little communication from him.  The divorce,  final after 32 months, only seems to have ended Monster but nothing else.  The journey continues out of guilt, I believe.  :P
OceanLady
Me 59
H   57
S15, now S20, came home end of 6/15.
M   6/1994 (only marriage)
BD1 12/08 He told me to leave the house for no reason.  I did not leave my house or family.
BD2 3/10 he asked for a D
BD3 4/10 H filed for the D
BD4 5/10 H flew 1400 miles to see OW
BD5 6/10 he walked out w/OW in  tow
Divorce final Feb. 2013

Offline kikki

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #43 on: September 22, 2013, 03:47:27 PM »
Oceanlady - my H did the same thing I think.
Admitted recently that he was so angry in the early days, he had to leave because he thought he might hit me.  (I don't think he has ever hit anyone in his life, apart from one schoolground bully).

I believe he also left to protect us all from monster.  He too shows little sign of monster these days, although still shows irritability at times, and has admitted that things with the OW are tumultuous and he is often awful to her verbally.

Offline 31andcounting

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #44 on: September 22, 2013, 05:49:03 PM »
Thanks Stayed for your comments. I understand no expectations ....I do see it as remorseful and understand I want and expect a new relationship with my H. I will not settle for just being "back"  together. It has to be better. Time will tell:)
31andcounting
Hurting people hurt people :(

Offline FindingJoJo

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #45 on: September 26, 2013, 04:25:11 AM »
Quote
Some people really don't care, all they want is their MARRIAGE back... good, bad, indifferent, they just want things/their lives, to be as near to how they were as possible.  End of story.  For me, simply returning was not enough.  To each's own... they say.

Oh man, the one thing this entire journey has taught me is that I do not want my old marriage back.  It wasn't a bad marriage but my H's actions have pointed out and yes even awakened me.  Now I don't want him to simply return, maybe the early days I probably did but now simply returning is not enough. 

My H recently admitted that for the last year he f'd up his life and mine too.  I think it was the first time he has ever acknowledged how badly his choices have hurt my life too.  Anyway one thing I told H was as he was trying to forgive himself which he must do to remember that we are also both more awake and it was in part due to his actions, we won't ever take our marriage and our love for granted any more.  I need time to process as does he.
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=6740.0

Time is on our side, use it to thrive not just survive.
:)
Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind...  Romans 12:2
M 44
H 36
M 13
T 15
BD #1 October 10, 2011 ILBNILWY speech
BD #2 May 2, 2012

Offline stayedTopic starter

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #46 on: September 26, 2013, 06:17:12 AM »
Without a doubt FindingJoJo, this is a process.  Trust it and I think your/our lives will be just fine, with or without our spouses.  I think we have to be prepared to lose them completely and they US before we are able to REBUILD a better life together... or even apart, strangely enough. 

I guess letting go means, letting grow!  Letting ourselves GROW and not only accept the outcome but embrace it.  Grow!  Live!  Love!  Life! 

Married 39yrs.
Reconciled July 5, 2006

"Don't be so open minded your brains fall out".  by Stephen A. Kallis, Jr.
"We believe marriage is sacred, but it is not our job to save marriages; it is our goal to empower each of you to save your own marriage."

Stayed Husband Letter
The Hero's Spouse Mission Statement
Survival Instructions for Newbies
The Mentor Program
LBS SCRIPT

Offline FindingJoJo

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #47 on: September 26, 2013, 06:26:22 AM »
Without a doubt FindingJoJo, this is a process.  Trust it and I think your/our lives will be just fine, with or without our spouses.  I think we have to be prepared to lose them completely and they US before we are able to REBUILD a better life together... or even apart, strangely enough. 

I guess letting go means, letting grow!  Letting ourselves GROW and not only accept the outcome but embrace it.  Grow!  Live!  Love!  Life!

I agree and yesterday I did tell him I am quite done with him, I have had it and I don't want any part of this.  It was my choice to take this break and one that I feel is going to be huge for me.
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=6740.0

Time is on our side, use it to thrive not just survive.
:)
Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind...  Romans 12:2
M 44
H 36
M 13
T 15
BD #1 October 10, 2011 ILBNILWY speech
BD #2 May 2, 2012

Offline Trustandlove

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #48 on: September 26, 2013, 07:12:24 AM »
This is an excellent thread; on the previous one there were a number of good posts on forgiveness -- it's of course tied in to guilt and remorse, but I'm wondering if those don't merit their own thread?  I was looking, and found them from around post 141 on the old thread -- Bewildered had put a number of good things there. 

Would that be possible?

Offline LaughLoveLive

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #49 on: September 28, 2013, 12:28:59 AM »
Oh man, the one thing this entire journey has taught me is that I do not want my old marriage back.  It wasn't a bad marriage but my H's actions have pointed out and yes even awakened me.  Now I don't want him to simply return, maybe the early days I probably did but now simply returning is not enough. 

This is totally true for me too. I don't want my old marriage back now either but a new and better relationship between two healed and whole people with a whole new perspective. Who knows weep heather that will ever happen! My H has said once "I am sorry for all the pain I'm causing" and I know feels guilty, guilty, guilty. Getting past guilt seems to be very hard.

Just one thing is like to add to this discussion is that my H will need to show his remorse to our children too. Both girls, aged 18 & 11, have said to me quite recently things like "dad has never even apologised to me or acknowledged that this has been difficult and upsetting for me" theft are hurting too and he will hopefully eventually see that.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2013, 04:14:42 AM by OldPilot »
BD Dec 26 2011
M April 1990, D October 2014
D21, D15

I choose to BE FABULOUS!

Offline riverbirch

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #50 on: October 02, 2013, 06:51:52 PM »
GUILT = Sitting in the parking lot across the street from your house for an hour, because you can't face the spouse. Coming in as fast as you can saying' I'm not staying'. Not looking someone in the face or wanting to speak to them. ;)
Me 52
H (whatever he is) 53
D for financial reasons March 2012
Started seeing massive change over the summer 2012
Left end of October 2012
Started coming home thanksgiving 2013
Home now. March 2014
Believe ow is gone
Probably going through this for years
OW discovered Oct.23,2013,old GF from before we met at the age of 16!
Left again Oct. 20 2015
Came back two weeks later
Still here 01/17 not done yet

Offline stayedTopic starter

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #51 on: October 03, 2013, 12:24:29 AM »
Sadly, guilt without remorse... JUST HOLDS A PERSON BACK!  :(

hugs Stayed
Married 39yrs.
Reconciled July 5, 2006

"Don't be so open minded your brains fall out".  by Stephen A. Kallis, Jr.
"We believe marriage is sacred, but it is not our job to save marriages; it is our goal to empower each of you to save your own marriage."

Stayed Husband Letter
The Hero's Spouse Mission Statement
Survival Instructions for Newbies
The Mentor Program
LBS SCRIPT

Offline riverbirch

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #52 on: October 03, 2013, 03:01:34 PM »
Yes it does.
Me 52
H (whatever he is) 53
D for financial reasons March 2012
Started seeing massive change over the summer 2012
Left end of October 2012
Started coming home thanksgiving 2013
Home now. March 2014
Believe ow is gone
Probably going through this for years
OW discovered Oct.23,2013,old GF from before we met at the age of 16!
Left again Oct. 20 2015
Came back two weeks later
Still here 01/17 not done yet

Offline StillHaveHope

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #53 on: October 25, 2013, 07:26:17 AM »
I'm learning a lot from this discussion. I have two comments:

Quote
I think they meant it when they have a moment of clarity and say I'm sorry. It is not the I'm sorry of repent/remorse but they are really sorry. Then the fog comes over again, or something takes them deeper again and it is back to anger and blame us.

I remember the moments of clarity in the earlier days with my H. His eyes would clear, he would hold me and say that he can't believe he's done this, he's sorry, he loves me so much. And I remember one time I looked at him and said, "you're going to go away again aren't you?" and he replied yes. We both knew that the fog would come rolling back in and the stranger would reappear. So very very sad. In his moments of clarity our love and connection would fill the room but the fog would suck the life right out of the room. So bizarre but always validated to me that this was an illness and out of my control.

On another note re: remorse - I have become so sick of the words and no action from H. Don't tell me, show me. In the last few months I have seen the biggest change in him regarding our two young children. It's the most consistent he has ever been in their lives. He's on every detail, sometimes emailing me to remind me of what's going on at school, such and such needs this, etc. He's really learning to be a father. I would love to see that consistency in our marriage however at least he's showing what I believe to be true remorse for being an absent father for the better part of their lives. I'm hearing less and less about "poor me, I've really screwed up as a father" and much more action. Maybe someday that may just carry over to our relationship. Who knows.

Offline 31andcounting

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #54 on: October 25, 2013, 07:57:47 AM »
StillhaveHope~ that is how it begins I believe.  Whether or not they can maintain that forward action is one thing, but just a thought....  treat your h as if he is moving forward, don't give him an option of not moving ahead. No expectations, enjoy that he is and you  ust be happy, for yourself and for your kids :)
(((hug)))
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Hurting people hurt people :(

Offline StillHaveHope

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #55 on: October 25, 2013, 09:57:46 AM »
Thanks 31andcounting.

Our relationship has been progressing a lot over the last month and he's been asking me to do things as a family however he still has a relationship with the alienator so I've set that boundary that we can't work on us until he is good and done with that life. And until then I'm going to continue to move on with my life. I was a little cold to him for a couple of days this week (not responding to emails and being very business like) because I had a moment where I just got ticked off. I didn't say anything to him but I was just mad about all of this so I pulled away. I started overthinking everything, how I need to stop being nice because he's cake eating, etc.

But then someone responded to one of my posts where I was struggling with how to deal with him when I see him (we see each other several times a week with kids activities) and their advice and comments brought a lot of clarity. I realised that by being pleasant with him and by being "myself" I'm not being a pushover. I'm treating him like I would anyone. I'm not going to let him take advantage of me but I'm not going to change who I am (a relatively happy and kind person) because of him. I'm very content and happy being me.

The other insight was in regards to my kids. By being kind to my H in their presence I'm providing them with an environment where they can love us both freely. I don't ever want them to feel that they have to choose. So at the end of the day I walk away feeling good about me and how I acted. I'm strong enough to do that now and will continue to be a model for my children. In the face of conflict I will continue to handle myself with poise and grace.

Offline 31andcounting

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #56 on: October 25, 2013, 12:47:11 PM »
StillHaveHope~ it is fine thin line....we must walk :)  You sound good I would agree with the advice.   If your busy they can wait for you to reply, but  the courteous thing to do to anyone is reply.  It is ok to get mad and it is ok let them know, but I feel it must be done in a loving way...hard as it is.  I always try to remember It makes me a better person to handle H and everyone that way.  i am trying very hard to treat people the way I would like to be treated.
Good for you :)
(((hugs)))
31
Hurting people hurt people :(

Offline jasmine snow

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #57 on: November 21, 2013, 08:01:28 PM »
after H left OW and lives in a flat alone , he sent me an email "Sorry we haven't talked, Things haven't been good recently . I'm sorry for all the pain I've caused you"
Is this guilt or remorse ?   ???
H 35
Me 34
Son 5
Together 11 years
married 7
MLC symptoms 2-3 years ago but didn't know what it was at the time
First BD, but i didn't recognized ; March 2013
OW confirmed, through his emails ; 1st Aug. 2013
Moved in with OW and took our son with him ; 5th or 6th August
H and OW split up and he left her house ; 12th Oct. 2013
Now H living alone near where he works
"Everything happened at the same time and I feel like my head is going to explode. Since my dad died i feel like life is too short.I don't know what I want in life anymore. What makes me happy. I can't give you answer for anything right now. I just want to be happy. I don't know if i still love you. But i want you to be honest with yourself of what you want "....and so on

Offline kikki

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #58 on: November 21, 2013, 08:04:05 PM »
JasmineS - I just had a look at your BD. I wish I could say otherwise, but it is most likely that this is guilt. 

Offline stayedTopic starter

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #59 on: November 26, 2013, 03:53:57 AM »
JasmineS - I just had a look at your BD. I wish I could say otherwise, but it is most likely that this is guilt. 

Worse then that JasmineS, he is actually looking for sympathy from you.  He wants YOU to reassure him, that it will all be ok.  Guilt, remorse is a long, slow process.    :(

hugs Stayed
Married 39yrs.
Reconciled July 5, 2006

"Don't be so open minded your brains fall out".  by Stephen A. Kallis, Jr.
"We believe marriage is sacred, but it is not our job to save marriages; it is our goal to empower each of you to save your own marriage."

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Offline jasmine snow

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #60 on: November 26, 2013, 08:45:40 PM »
JasmineS - I just had a look at your BD. I wish I could say otherwise, but it is most likely that this is guilt. 

Worse then that JasmineS, he is actually looking for sympathy from you.  He wants YOU to reassure him, that it will all be ok.  Guilt, remorse is a long, slow process.    :(

hugs Stayed

So how should I do ? I mean, should I act/ be nice to him, or just acting polite as co-parents ?

I want to give him time but I also don't want him to think that he will get what he wants whenever he wants and that I will wait for him forever (if you know what i mean) . When I go to UK and stay with my son, I don't want my son to see that something between me and H is not the same,I want to create nice/friendly atmosphere around our 5 year-old son.

I will see H on saturday and sunday when he comes to see the wee man and then we will sleep in the same bed. How should i act around him ?

Thanks

I responded on your thread:

http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=4218.msg271108
« Last Edit: November 26, 2013, 08:57:30 PM by limitless »
H 35
Me 34
Son 5
Together 11 years
married 7
MLC symptoms 2-3 years ago but didn't know what it was at the time
First BD, but i didn't recognized ; March 2013
OW confirmed, through his emails ; 1st Aug. 2013
Moved in with OW and took our son with him ; 5th or 6th August
H and OW split up and he left her house ; 12th Oct. 2013
Now H living alone near where he works
"Everything happened at the same time and I feel like my head is going to explode. Since my dad died i feel like life is too short.I don't know what I want in life anymore. What makes me happy. I can't give you answer for anything right now. I just want to be happy. I don't know if i still love you. But i want you to be honest with yourself of what you want "....and so on

Offline horsegal

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #61 on: December 16, 2013, 01:10:58 PM »
Thanks...stayed for this post and everyone who added to it! I'm new here and still have more questions then answers HOWEVER this post rings very true. I heard 'I'm sorry didn't mean to, can't change it, don't try and make me feel guilty...until I'm so sick of hearing that. I believe ANYBODY, ANYWHERE can say ANYTHING but our actions mean the most. I believe this post 100% because this is my H to the tee and I found myself more remorseful for what I did to him and have never repeated it, then anything he has said or done for me the past 7 months. He has said a lot but has done nothing about it. I love coming to this site it has really opened up my eyes and has really helped.
Thanks, Horsegal

Offline 31andcounting

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #62 on: December 30, 2013, 10:29:15 AM »
I believe I am closer to full remorse than I am to guilt?  Not complete remorse? Could that be possible?  I think it takes "them" a long long time, I have been and am giving my H time and patience.  It gets to be " a little to much" once in a while and my H now will address it, in his own way.  I can see it is very hard for him just as it is for me. I wish I could allow myself to be less guarded, but I am allowing myself time to learn and grow still.   I want it all to "just be done" but that is not how it works......
I watched my H with our grandchildren, and adult children over the holiday,  He is not the same man he was prior to BD, not at all the same man he was during replay.......he is his "new" self.  I love him more and more BUT still find myself "wondering" ......maybe its better to have taken my rose colored glasses off :)  does make me kind of sad though.....:( 
I hope everyone remains strong and healthy.  Enjoys "something"( a child, a flower, a workout, a book)  everyday, even during this mess we are all in :) My biggest hope for everyone as 2014 approaches is that you truly see remorse from you're spouse, it is bittersweet but nice :)
(((hugs))) to all
31andcounting
Hurting people hurt people :(

Offline always hopeful

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #63 on: February 28, 2014, 07:30:15 AM »
I'm learning a lot from this discussion. I have two comments:

Quote
I think they meant it when they have a moment of clarity and say I'm sorry. It is not the I'm sorry of repent/remorse but they are really sorry. Then the fog comes over again, or something takes them deeper again and it is back to anger and blame us.

I remember the moments of clarity in the earlier days with my H. His eyes would clear, he would hold me and say that he can't believe he's done this, he's sorry, he loves me so much. And I remember one time I looked at him and said, "you're going to go away again aren't you?" and he replied yes. We both knew that the fog would come rolling back in and the stranger would reappear. So very very sad. In his moments of clarity our love and connection would fill the room but the fog would suck the life right out of the room. So bizarre but always validated to me that this was an illness and out of my control.

On another note re: remorse - I have become so sick of the words and no action from H. Don't tell me, show me. In the last few months I have seen the biggest change in him regarding our two young children. It's the most consistent he has ever been in their lives. He's on every detail, sometimes emailing me to remind me of what's going on at school, such and such needs this, etc. He's really learning to be a father. I would love to see that consistency in our marriage however at least he's showing what I believe to be true remorse for being an absent father for the better part of their lives. I'm hearing less and less about "poor me, I've really screwed up as a father" and much more action. Maybe someday that may just carry over to our relationship. Who knows.



I am fairly new at this.  BD was late Oct. 2013  W had made several touch n goes.  Interesting note.  My W took the OM to Jamaica in Jan. 2014  we were married in Jamaica 8 years ago.  Not even 1 week after being home she contacts me saying she's sorry for hurting me and wants to know if I would take her back.  Of course being new at this, I did knowing there was a long road ahead and way to early.  My wife when she came home was crying and said she knew she hurt us all  but I wasn't sure if that was it or if she missed the OM.  Within 3days she started to distance hr rself again and she even told me not to have any expectations and that she didn't want to hurt me.  I guess the fog came back.  Now she sleeps in the spare bedroom and won't even get dressed in the same room.  I'm curious if revisiting the place we were married brought her out of the fog and temporarily home?  She is moving into a rental house next week.

Offline FindingJoJo

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #64 on: February 28, 2014, 08:42:44 AM »
For me I think that the guilt is the words and they want us to comfort them to soothe that guilt - remorse in a way is when the actions match up to the words.  It is how I view it, our sons see that my H is a walking ball of shame and guilt - but he isn't truly remorseful because his actions have him continually doing the actions he feels guilty about.
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=6740.0

Time is on our side, use it to thrive not just survive.
:)
Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind...  Romans 12:2
M 44
H 36
M 13
T 15
BD #1 October 10, 2011 ILBNILWY speech
BD #2 May 2, 2012

Online Searching4Answers

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #65 on: February 28, 2014, 02:38:45 PM »
For me I think that the guilt is the words and they want us to comfort them to soothe that guilt - remorse in a way is when the actions match up to the words.  It is how I view it, our sons see that my H is a walking ball of shame and guilt - but he isn't truly remorseful because his actions have him continually doing the actions he feels guilty about.

I would agree with that FindingJoJo. Remorse is definitely about the actions. Until the words and actions match up there is no remorse.
We all do damage. Character is determined by how we repair it.


BD - December 2012
OW1 confirmed - December 2012 on-and-off for 34 months and counting (still refers to her as just a 'friend')
Wants to live like roommates - November 2013
I moved out - April 2015
H is still checking the anchor

Offline stayedTopic starter

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #66 on: March 01, 2014, 02:42:42 AM »
True 'dat!  Sadly, guilt seems to hold them back.  Feeling guilty sucks.  Sometimes and this seems to be especially true of MLCer's, feeling guilty angers them because they also see themselves as ENTITLED to freedom, happiness, fun.  It takes them a long time to realize that having those entitlements at the expense of their entire family, is not as ENJOYABLE as they expected it be.  Which makes them feel GUILTY, which makes them feel ANGRY, which then makes them RESENTFUL. 

Vicious circle!

Hugs Stayed
« Last Edit: March 01, 2014, 02:44:12 AM by stayed »
Married 39yrs.
Reconciled July 5, 2006

"Don't be so open minded your brains fall out".  by Stephen A. Kallis, Jr.
"We believe marriage is sacred, but it is not our job to save marriages; it is our goal to empower each of you to save your own marriage."

Stayed Husband Letter
The Hero's Spouse Mission Statement
Survival Instructions for Newbies
The Mentor Program
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Offline Duthla

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #67 on: March 03, 2014, 09:58:25 AM »
 Feeling guilty sucks.  Sometimes and this seems to be especially true of MLCer's, feeling guilty angers them because they also see themselves as ENTITLED to freedom, happiness, fun.  It takes them a long time to realize that having those entitlements at the expense of their entire family, is not as ENJOYABLE as they expected it be.  Which makes them feel GUILTY, which makes them feel ANGRY, which then makes them RESENTFUL. 

Vicious circle!


Oh my gosh, wiser and truer words were never written. I wish I could have sent this to my H months ago. My intent would have been for him to return. I wish I could send this to him now....but more of a rub-it-in-your-face gesture now.  ;D

Offline Serendipity

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #68 on: March 03, 2014, 12:53:10 PM »
True 'dat!  Sadly, guilt seems to hold them back.  Feeling guilty sucks.  Sometimes and this seems to be especially true of MLCer's, feeling guilty angers them because they also see themselves as ENTITLED to freedom, happiness, fun.  It takes them a long time to realize that having those entitlements at the expense of their entire family, is not as ENJOYABLE as they expected it be.  Which makes them feel GUILTY, which makes them feel ANGRY, which then makes them RESENTFUL. 

Vicious circle!

Hugs Stayed

Beautiful Stayed!!!  that sums it up perfectly!  thank you for that!  Now, when I feel like texting H or doubting the process, I will think of this.  Thank you wise one!! :)
Mrs. DO

Offline PolarBear

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #69 on: March 09, 2014, 12:59:38 PM »
Wow, such a true post. I had not thought about it like that before, but it is spot on and my MLC W has definitely not reached remorse but only guilt.
“The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.”
(Mahatma Gandhi)
We can not solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
 (Albert Einstein)

M2000, T1996
D15, D11, S9

BD 2 Nov 13
W moved out 31 Jan 14
TnG Aug-Nov'14
Confirmed OM1 & OM2

Offline jasmine snow

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #70 on: March 11, 2014, 01:14:11 PM »
My H now is acting more kind and caring towards me, it's been 3-4 weeks like this now...
example
- i was not well, and one night he walked down to the garage to buy me some medicines
- he offered me drinks, made me sandwiches , invited me to watch TV programs with him (i sat in different room doing my own thing)
-he bought me b'day card and said "Love....his name"
- smiles at me every time i walk pass him or into the same room (living room, kitchen,etc)
-offer to help out more
- get off TV to help me with little things right away
- when i was not well, he offered to help finishing all the work in the kitchen (clean up,etc) and told me to have early night
etc...

what is this ?
I'm still keeping my distance as when i was too friendly, he backed off...
H 35
Me 34
Son 5
Together 11 years
married 7
MLC symptoms 2-3 years ago but didn't know what it was at the time
First BD, but i didn't recognized ; March 2013
OW confirmed, through his emails ; 1st Aug. 2013
Moved in with OW and took our son with him ; 5th or 6th August
H and OW split up and he left her house ; 12th Oct. 2013
Now H living alone near where he works
"Everything happened at the same time and I feel like my head is going to explode. Since my dad died i feel like life is too short.I don't know what I want in life anymore. What makes me happy. I can't give you answer for anything right now. I just want to be happy. I don't know if i still love you. But i want you to be honest with yourself of what you want "....and so on

Offline Upwards

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #71 on: April 28, 2014, 03:13:12 AM »
My H cycles between real remorse & guilt - he seemed to be doing a lot of "facing up to things" and facing his demons, he begun putting himself in my position and genuinely seemed very remorseful and like he was moving forwards but he's run for cover again and gone back into guilt mode.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2014, 03:14:49 AM by Upwards »
Me: 29, H:29
M: 6 years
T: 11 years
Kids: D6 & S3
MLC Begun: Mid 2010?
Bomb Drop #1: Sept 2012
Separated: 16/08/13 (my choice, H went into rehab)
Bomb Drop #2: 16/01/14

Offline CallanG

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #72 on: April 28, 2014, 03:18:21 AM »

Hi Upwards

Mine did the exact same thing , but like yours got scared and ran back . I think they really do try and avoid rock bottom and the pain .

Callan

Offline Medusa

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #73 on: April 30, 2014, 05:37:33 AM »

Mine did the exact same thing , but like yours got scared and ran back . I think they really do try and avoid rock bottom and the pain .

I haven't seen any remorse (but lots of guilt).

Regardless, I agree that they try to avoid their bottom. Or they bounce. I can understand it having hit my own bottom through this process. I went through the depression, for awhile I drank too much, and then I realized what I was doing to myself and straightened up and am still working on myself. The difference between us is that we are not in the same kind of fog as them: we are more self-aware and are brave enough to address whatever our problems happen to be.
_____________________

Married 29 years. Divorced 12/7/16.
BD March 2013
D24, S22, Canine
Moved out November 2013
Bought townhouse for him and OW December, 2014
Mediation began April, 2014, completed June, 2015; round of mediation completed August 24.
My status: done and indifferent
____________________

That's was some f*cked up sh!t! I don't ever have to do that again!

Why are you holding on to that? How is it serving you?

One does not make the trip to he!! And back without acquiring transferable skills!

Offline Darth Obo

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #74 on: May 06, 2014, 12:09:30 PM »
1. Real remorse means seeing the pain you caused someone, and reaching out to make it better. Feeling bad for the person in pain.

Yep...When she realizes she has been causing pain or being "mean", she reaches out to make up / T & G; although could be guilt too. Hard to say! She will try to "comfort" me though!

4. Remorse says "I'm sorry I hurt you".
Guilt says "stop making me feel bad for what I did".

I got both of these. Actual phrase was "Sorry I keep hurting you". However, asked that I not hold her EA(s) over her head and make her pay forever!

5. Remorse cares more about the one wounded. They don't care about others holding them accountable because they already hold themselves accountable.
Guilt worries more about how the wounded one makes them appear in the eyes of others. They feel their self image is being attacked. They do worry about others holding them accountable because they shirk self accountability.

Again, I sense both of these in her! She beats herself up about things she has done and how she has acted but also worries about self-image and how we look as a couple!

8. Remorse leads to the ability to forgive the self.
Guilt leads to self hatred.

Definitely self-hatred right now; or at least sense she doesn't like the person in the mirror!


Quote from: Searching4Answers
This seems to be a reoccuring theme with H; at BD he said that he was going to brutally selfish, not having consideration for anyone but himself. He warned at the time that this would be difficult for me and maybe I should leave. Obviously, I didn't leave and because I didn't leave he has taken this as 'it is my choice to go through the pain'. H has brought this up numerous times when I express my pain to him saying that 'i warned you'. Do you think that his 'warning me' was a way to side step responsibility for what he is doing?

Ok, I got something similar to this. Early on, she did the usual script and "it's my time now" etc. When I exposed / busted EA#2, she said she was hoping I would get fed up and hate her enough to leave. She didn't want to do the dirty work. Said I should "hurry up and leave before she did something that would really hurt me".  :o I didn't give it much thought at the time but now...It's like she knows she is behaving badly and although doesn't want to she can't stop it! Goes in line with something Albatross posted a while back; they must follow their emotions.


OBO
M: 5/30/1992
BD: 7/24/2013
Alienator: 2; in hindsight; left for me to discover as an exit strategy.
D: 12/16/2014

End State: I'm glad it is over, for several reasons....too many to list here. I am so much better off and, aside from the great kids we have, regret ever marrying her.

Offline SSG

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #75 on: May 09, 2014, 11:04:29 PM »
Ok, I got something similar to this. Early on, she did the usual script and "it's my time now" etc. When I exposed / busted EA#2, she said she was hoping I would get fed up and hate her enough to leave. She didn't want to do the dirty work. Said I should "hurry up and leave before she did something that would really hurt me".  :o I didn't give it much thought at the time but now...It's like she knows she is behaving badly and although doesn't want to she can't stop it! Goes in line with something Albatross posted a while back; they must follow their emotions.


OBO

OBO, while readying my H secret messages on FB to the OW...he wrote "I am trying to make 'wife' so mad she will leave me.
The date of this message coincided with the monstering he was doing at the time...this was months before BD. 

After BD, when we could still talk...I asked him were you acting so hateful towards me hoping I would leave?  He looked me right in the face and said 'no'.    :o

SG
« Last Edit: May 09, 2014, 11:06:06 PM by StandingGermany »
Even if you are the minority of one, the truth is the truth.   Mahatma Ghandi

Together-17 years
M- 15 Yrs
BD- June 24, 2013
Affair began May 2012
moved in with OW August 2013
Aug 2014, H diagosed with terminal cancer
H filed for divorce Sept 2014
H Died 3 March, 2015

Offline Upwards

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #76 on: May 12, 2014, 10:19:52 AM »
My H told me that he was mean to me because he wanted me to walk away from him because he felt so much guilt & couldn't handle it however he said that he didn't really want me to walk away he just didn't know how else to handle the extreme guilt that he felt.

Monster is a projection of their own feelings, absolutely not personal!
Me: 29, H:29
M: 6 years
T: 11 years
Kids: D6 & S3
MLC Begun: Mid 2010?
Bomb Drop #1: Sept 2012
Separated: 16/08/13 (my choice, H went into rehab)
Bomb Drop #2: 16/01/14

Offline Medusa

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #77 on: May 12, 2014, 01:35:35 PM »
I asked mine if he was doing all these hateful things because he wanted me to be the one to file for divorce. He had to think about it before he told me no.

Liar.
_____________________

Married 29 years. Divorced 12/7/16.
BD March 2013
D24, S22, Canine
Moved out November 2013
Bought townhouse for him and OW December, 2014
Mediation began April, 2014, completed June, 2015; round of mediation completed August 24.
My status: done and indifferent
____________________

That's was some f*cked up sh!t! I don't ever have to do that again!

Why are you holding on to that? How is it serving you?

One does not make the trip to he!! And back without acquiring transferable skills!

Offline riverbirch

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #78 on: May 13, 2014, 05:23:28 PM »
What is hiding your face in a pillow? Guilt or remorse? :o

Oh wait that could be thinking of all the good times he's had too and needs to hide his face.
Me 52
H (whatever he is) 53
D for financial reasons March 2012
Started seeing massive change over the summer 2012
Left end of October 2012
Started coming home thanksgiving 2013
Home now. March 2014
Believe ow is gone
Probably going through this for years
OW discovered Oct.23,2013,old GF from before we met at the age of 16!
Left again Oct. 20 2015
Came back two weeks later
Still here 01/17 not done yet

Online Searching4Answers

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #79 on: May 14, 2014, 07:07:16 AM »
My H cycles between real remorse & guilt - he seemed to be doing a lot of "facing up to things" and facing his demons, he begun putting himself in my position and genuinely seemed very remorseful and like he was moving forwards but he's run for cover again and gone back into guilt mode.

The lack of empathy drives me crazy - I guess they have to shut that down in order move forward.
We all do damage. Character is determined by how we repair it.


BD - December 2012
OW1 confirmed - December 2012 on-and-off for 34 months and counting (still refers to her as just a 'friend')
Wants to live like roommates - November 2013
I moved out - April 2015
H is still checking the anchor

Offline i can and will cope

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #80 on: May 14, 2014, 07:59:54 AM »
My H cycles between real remorse & guilt - he seemed to be doing a lot of "facing up to things" and facing his demons, he begun putting himself in my position and genuinely seemed very remorseful and like he was moving forwards but he's run for cover again and gone back into guilt mode.


The lack of empathy drives me crazy - I guess they have to shut that down in order move forward
.

i think I just have to remind myself this is what they do ?



Offline jkh

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #81 on: June 24, 2014, 11:17:00 AM »
So,

I suppose I've felt genuine remorse for my wrongs. I'm 6 weeks into the physical separation and the D was filed by her 4 weeks ago. I've been trying to detach with little success and I've gone dark for the most part. I don't think talking about the relationship right now would be helpful or reminding of her of my bad behavior(jealousy, neediness.) What should I see from her before I should feel comfortable reaching out to apologize and show remorse. In our initial discussion I took almost all of the blame for the state of the relationship because I'd been told for so long that I was the problem. And, frankly, I did have problems and acting very childish and hurtful at times because of my own insecurities. But it takes two to tango. I'm not sure she really heard me during that conversation because I cried and probably came across as desperate and it probably seemed like I was making a plea. I don't know, maybe I was. But when the time is right, after she is in a better place, and after I've had sufficient time to truly analyze the situation, I'd like to give a sincere acknowledgment and apology for my mistakes. My overall goal is to preserve my marriage, so I don't want to do harm or set myself back right now. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Offline Dagolark

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #82 on: June 24, 2014, 02:56:57 PM »
GUILT = Sitting in the parking lot across the street from your house for an hour, because you can't face the spouse. Coming in as fast as you can saying' I'm not staying'. Not looking someone in the face or wanting to speak to them. ;)

Now I get it...
Me: 26, Bf: 33, R: 9 years

BD 17 April 2014
OW confirmed 28 April 2014
Phone call: it's over, 3 June 2014
NC and doubt I'll ever hear from him again.

Offline Slow Fade

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #83 on: July 03, 2014, 03:23:47 PM »
I think right now, in the budding stages of H saying he wants to make our marriage work, all he feels is guilt. He says the past is the past and I want to just not talk about it because it is too painful.....too painful for whom? Yourself because your dream girl dumped you and you had to settle for your wife?

He said "everyone" wants us back together so he didn't think they would hold a grudge against us. Wait, us? What the heck did I do? Oh yes, I paid the mortgage, kept the lights on and raised our S11 while you were out banging girls your oldest sons age!  >:( I guess I can see why people would have a grudge against me! ::)

He hasn't said I'm sorry, I miss you or I love you. All he has said is both of us have to compromise. Gee H, you are really winning me back with all of your sweet talk!

I see the guilt. I will wait for the remorse and repentance before I will agree to much more. The hatching of the MLC'r is a slow and painful process!
Married 18
BD April 2012
Left home Nov 2012
Home May 2016

Offline i can and will cope

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #84 on: July 03, 2014, 03:31:43 PM »
reading wit interest slow fade , i am going to post conversation i had with my h (via text) i see some remorse in him but guilt also the im sorry has been there i am meeting hi on saturday this will be the third time now in 5 weeks after nothing for a few months apart from emails and texts , touch and goes or something else i dot know but am beinf=g very cautious , he could nt look me in the eye becuase he was embarrassed buy everything he has done and put me through , he has just gone with the flow coz its easier than mending our broken hearts ?
i just dont know hugs sf x

Offline stayedTopic starter

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #85 on: July 03, 2014, 09:19:41 PM »
That sounds familiar Slow Fade!  Good for you, no remorse...no reconciliation!  Why put yourself through the agony?

hugs Stayed
Married 39yrs.
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Offline Songanddance

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #86 on: July 04, 2014, 09:38:22 AM »
Absolutely - I am nowhere near where you are SF but know that until he expresses remorse and is prepared to be accountable as well as being sincere in any loving words - that achieving the reconciliation will never happen.

I don't mean that I wouldn't be open to listening and allowing H in but I will believe nothing until ....

Offline toomanytearss

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #87 on: July 04, 2014, 06:11:32 PM »
Yes, that is it.  Remorse.  I see none.  Only guilt.  I didn't really understand the difference.  It hit me a few days ago.

Guilt is taking a Hershey's kiss when you weren't supposed to - you feel guilty about it but no remorse because you are still glad you took it and ate it.  Even though you feel guilty you did.

Remorse is when you take the candy and eat it even though you knew you shouldn't but now you wish you hadn't done it.  You wish you could put it back.  You want to make it right so you go and replace the kiss you took and apologize for your weakness. 

Guilt is just a reaction to an action.
Remorse is more like a response - it's thought out and consequences are considered. 
BD Feb 2014
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Offline Dagolark

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #88 on: July 04, 2014, 06:21:22 PM »
Ah. That is a good explanation. I still struggle with understanding since in my language we don't really have a marked difference between the two terms. Any other examples would be welcome!
Me: 26, Bf: 33, R: 9 years

BD 17 April 2014
OW confirmed 28 April 2014
Phone call: it's over, 3 June 2014
NC and doubt I'll ever hear from him again.

Offline LaughLoveLive

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #89 on: July 04, 2014, 08:57:04 PM »
I agree that is a really good explanation.

I have another, a situation that came up the other day and gave me an opportunity to talk about the difference with my D12. After all, it is a life lesson for everyone not just MLC or LBS.

D12 was having trouble with a friend telling secrets about her, you know the whispering campaigns that girls can get up to. When it was all exposed, The friends biggest concern was for D12 to please please not say anything to me coz I might tell her mum and then she would get into trouble. Guilt but not remorse. She knew she had done the wrong thing but her concerns were for herself. She never understood that she had hurt D12 or tried to make amends - that would involve remorse.

Guilt is self centred "how does this make me feel?"
Remorse is focused in the other person "how did that make you feel?" And "what can I do to atone?"

The big problem with guilt is that it makes you feel bad. That then leads to either minimising or denying things, or projecting those bad feelings.  Monster.

Remorse makes you work through those bad feelings rather than ignore or deny them so it is difficult and confronting and a challenge but in the end you feel better if you make amends.

Since MLC hit our family, I have tried very hard to foster an open honest atmosphere where it is ok to admit fault rather than cover things up. i was just so hurt by the level of deceit. I have learnt to be very careful to be calm and reliable in my response  so now my kids (hopefully) are willing to acknowledge when they do something, they dont need to feel guilty, they know they will still be loved and forgiven but they also know they must make amends. it might be to clean up a mess or try to fix what was broken or to offer help to someone who was hurt.
BD Dec 26 2011
M April 1990, D October 2014
D21, D15

I choose to BE FABULOUS!

Offline riverbirch

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #90 on: July 05, 2014, 03:36:55 AM »
Remorse is feeling horrible about what you did. Then doing something about it,to make sure it doesn't happen again. Digging deep to figure out what caused you to feel bad enough to do the wrong things.

When I went through my own crisis it took me a while to realize what I did and why I did it. Then I made sure to find a way to change so I wouldn't feel the way I did. I was in such a bad place and did things I normally wouldn't do. I vowed to never make my family go through that pain again. You can see and feel another person's pain when you feel remorse. You have to deal with your issues, go see a counselor,go on meds.for depression,read,do research. Do what it takes to make things right.
Me 52
H (whatever he is) 53
D for financial reasons March 2012
Started seeing massive change over the summer 2012
Left end of October 2012
Started coming home thanksgiving 2013
Home now. March 2014
Believe ow is gone
Probably going through this for years
OW discovered Oct.23,2013,old GF from before we met at the age of 16!
Left again Oct. 20 2015
Came back two weeks later
Still here 01/17 not done yet

Offline Back_to_me_plus_2

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #91 on: July 21, 2014, 02:51:10 AM »
I am brand new into this - BD April 29th.

But I think my H was depressed off and on throughout our marriage and then BIG TIME depressed over the past year.

In a very short time, he's gone from having no regard for any of us... for example he told me he didn't want to go to my D5's daycare graduation (although not overly significant) which was very important to her.... he told me "if there's no 'ceremony', I'm not going to subject myself to spending the day around a bunch of kids"..

That's just one example of monstering....

Just recently, in the past couple of weeks, he's really seemed genuine about his "remorse" surrounding the kids and now the dogs (lol). He's always resented the dogs because I spent time with them. What's a girl to do with a depressed husband moping around.

Anyway, I could be wrong... he did send me a text saying he really felt terrible for missing the graduation, as we got the photo album and she was in a gown with her teacher. There was no ceremony, but he believes now that there was. And I think he does feel horrible...

Too early for remorse, or is it just cycling?
He says what he doesn't mean and what he means he does not say.

Offline Songanddance

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #92 on: July 21, 2014, 03:16:50 AM »
This is guilt.
Remorse is acknowledging very sincerely that they have done something wrong and really wanting to make amends and putting those amends into sincere and healing actions.

Guilt is just saying I'm sorry and having a pity party. That's what your H is doing.  All about him if you notice. Remorse is when it is no longer about him and his feelings but about sincerely acknowledging, recognising and acting to help other peoples feelings

Offline tigrlily12000

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #93 on: August 21, 2014, 03:37:15 PM »
True 'dat!  Sadly, guilt seems to hold them back.  Feeling guilty sucks.  Sometimes and this seems to be especially true of MLCer's, feeling guilty angers them because they also see themselves as ENTITLED to freedom, happiness, fun.  It takes them a long time to realize that having those entitlements at the expense of their entire family, is not as ENJOYABLE as they expected it be.  Which makes them feel GUILTY, which makes them feel ANGRY, which then makes them RESENTFUL. 

Vicious circle!

Hugs Stayed

How do we break this circle? Not meaning trying to break it with them but I know I have days where I feel this circle within me. I hate it! Hate the blame of our failure he has put mostly (not all) on me, which makes me feel guilty, then anger and lastly resentful. Resentful that he can do as he pleases while I stand and take care of everything...

Offline MIMIx

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #94 on: November 26, 2014, 04:21:55 PM »
So, does guilt eventually move forward into remorse?  Do most eventually see things from a different perspective?  Can the two happen together?  Does true remorse always include an admission of responsibility for the wrongdoing?

I have seen this in his actions but not with his words.  Although he is not EVER good with words!  He always prefers to apologize with actions.  A woman has to be good and intuitive to see the apology.

Will we know remorse if or when it happens?

Offline stayedTopic starter

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #95 on: November 27, 2014, 12:59:30 AM »
Guilt does not automatically move on to true REMORSE.  Remorse takes time, effort, genuine acknowledgement of all that you did wrong.  Owning it.  Making true retribution.  Acknowledgment of past wrongs and a determination to put them right, or at least as right as is possible.  Let's be honest, this cannot be undone, but it can certainly be acknowledged and truly regretted.

We can't do diddly squat about helping our spouse or anybody, own their bad behaviour.  The only person we can lead to ownership of their actions, is ourselves.  It comes completely and wholly from within OURSELVES!  All we can do, is lead by example.  Hopefully, they will follow suit.

The point is, if you want a truly loving relationship with your MLCer/spouse, true remorse and repenting has to be accomplished.  People will run and rationalize bad behaviour for a long, long time, before committing themselves to repent and remorse.  People do not like to feel badly about themselves and for some bazaar reason, they find it impossible to believe that admitting to their sins, repenting for them and being truly REMORSEFUL, will actually MAKE THEM FEEL BETTER about themselves, their life and the people around them.

We live in a crazy old world.  We all learn this stuff in Sunday school, from the age of 4, yet somehow most of us seem to have MISSED, Sunday School Remorse and Redemption 101. :(

Hugs Stayed
« Last Edit: November 27, 2014, 01:01:55 AM by stayed »
Married 39yrs.
Reconciled July 5, 2006

"Don't be so open minded your brains fall out".  by Stephen A. Kallis, Jr.
"We believe marriage is sacred, but it is not our job to save marriages; it is our goal to empower each of you to save your own marriage."

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Offline MIMIx

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #96 on: November 27, 2014, 03:20:11 AM »
So, remorse sounds like a necessary component to the breaking down of ego.  And perhaps a necessary step in one's  pathway to finding themselves and rediscovering their partner in the process.

So, I guess in my case, I am mostly seeing guilt and perhaps some remorse woven in. He's tricking me with his little surprises...like mowing the lawn and leaving before I get home from work.   Or dropping off a nice dinner for me but leaving before I get home.  He tells me how sorry he is.  But I think he is doing that more for himself rather than for me.

Hmmm....


Offline MIMIx

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #97 on: November 27, 2014, 03:30:51 AM »
Btw Stayed,

Hello from your old area in Canada.  Snow came early this year.  As usual, the winter complaining has begun too.  We women had to dig out those car seat warmers early this year.

M

Offline stayedTopic starter

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #98 on: November 27, 2014, 09:39:11 AM »
Hi MiMix, I wonder which Old area of Canada you are talking about?  I have lived in Alberta, Manitoba, Ontario and Quebec, hehehe.. I know there a lot more out there, but that was the best I could do in the 25 years I was part of my h's military career... of course that is not mentioning, several different cities in many of these provinces, plus the European tours. 

Actually, I keep up on the weather in the Ottawa region because we have a cottage less then an hour outside, Ottawa.  Don't want our pipes to freeze.  We have kids that use the place all year round, but they are not always the MOST reliable informers... hehehe. 

Hugs and sorry you have a need to be here.  We must try and hook up, if you are where I think you are.

Hugs Stayed
Married 39yrs.
Reconciled July 5, 2006

"Don't be so open minded your brains fall out".  by Stephen A. Kallis, Jr.
"We believe marriage is sacred, but it is not our job to save marriages; it is our goal to empower each of you to save your own marriage."

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Offline Magnite38

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #99 on: November 27, 2014, 10:39:19 AM »
I think of my ex and how he hasn't even givin me the guilt sorry yet after almost 2 years past BD.  I am not sure he is capable of ever getting to true remorse. It is crazy because he should feel like Sh!t after what he did to our young family. If he can't even feel guilt and admit some wrong, there is something wrong with him. There may be guilt there in his nasty behaviour but no apology. I would hope that somewhere in him he has a conscience and he will break free of this mask. I don't have much hope for him and one day soon it won't matter to me at all. :-\

I too am in the Canadian cold, a balmy -24c.  8)

Online Searching4Answers

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #100 on: November 27, 2014, 10:46:00 AM »
I think of my ex and how he hasn't even givin me the guilt sorry yet after almost 2 years past BD.  I am not sure he is capable of ever getting to true remorse. It is crazy because he should feel like Sh!t after what he did to our young family. If he can't even feel guilt and admit some wrong, there is something wrong with him. There may be guilt there in his nasty behaviour but no apology. I would hope that somewhere in him he has a conscience and he will break free of this mask. I don't have much hope for him and one day soon it won't matter to me at all. :-\

We are on the same timeline - BD was December 2012. My H is exactly the same. I got some guilt early on but it didn't last long. If he doesn't show guilt how is he going to show remorse :o
We all do damage. Character is determined by how we repair it.


BD - December 2012
OW1 confirmed - December 2012 on-and-off for 34 months and counting (still refers to her as just a 'friend')
Wants to live like roommates - November 2013
I moved out - April 2015
H is still checking the anchor

Offline stayedTopic starter

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #101 on: November 27, 2014, 11:36:41 AM »
Oh they show GUILT S4A's, they just don't ADMIT to guilt.  Big difference.  I think it really eats at those ones the most.

Hugs Stayed
Married 39yrs.
Reconciled July 5, 2006

"Don't be so open minded your brains fall out".  by Stephen A. Kallis, Jr.
"We believe marriage is sacred, but it is not our job to save marriages; it is our goal to empower each of you to save your own marriage."

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Offline Songanddance

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #102 on: November 27, 2014, 11:50:05 PM »
Quote
I think it really eats at those ones the most.

Well I hope it's eating my H up one big bite at a time!!

Offline stayedTopic starter

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #103 on: November 27, 2014, 11:55:47 PM »
 ;D ;D ;D ;D hehehe, thanks for the laugh, S&G.  I can't imagine that EVERY LBSer doesn't wish for that!  CHOMP! CHOMP!  CHOMP! hehehe...

Hugs Stayed
Married 39yrs.
Reconciled July 5, 2006

"Don't be so open minded your brains fall out".  by Stephen A. Kallis, Jr.
"We believe marriage is sacred, but it is not our job to save marriages; it is our goal to empower each of you to save your own marriage."

Stayed Husband Letter
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Offline PolarBear

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #104 on: December 06, 2014, 01:38:38 PM »
Do we need to have genuine remorse before rebuilding can commence, or can the remorse develop during rebuilding?

and some words to share from my last MC session (w/o W) : The shame your wife feels will destroy her from the inside until she address's it. It is the most destructive of all human emotions and she will not be able to commit to your R, till she has dealt with her shame and guilt.

Thus I think remorse is required for a reconnection to be successful, but is it required to start it?
“The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.”
(Mahatma Gandhi)
We can not solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
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M2000, T1996
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Offline stayedTopic starter

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #105 on: December 06, 2014, 02:44:12 PM »
I think rebuilding and remorse sort of happen simultaneously, at least it did for us.  Husband resisted for the longest time.  He really didn't want to admit to his shame, he wanted to pretend that it was all normal, sort of "part of life sort of thing".  At least he wanted to try and convince me that. 

I agree with your counselor.  As much as my h wanted me to let it all just be swept aside, I think in his heart of hearts, he knew that in order for himself as well as us to have the best chance of healing and rebuilding, he had to own what he had done.  He didn't want to face it, he truly didn't.  We have to help them though to realize it has to be faced.  Neither of us can get past it, if the whole situation is not faced, admitted, owned and then FORGIVEN by both parties.  The betrayer as much, perhaps even more then the betrayed.

It's not nearly as "gratifying" for the betrayed as you might think.  It is painful watching someone you love have to look at the horrible person they were during that time.  Yes, we all would love to have our MLCer apologize and confess to "regret", but if that partner were to return years later and they are obviously a mess, had a couple more relationships which have also failed, it does not give you the "satisfaction" you might now think it would. 

In the end, everybody just wants to "feel" normal again.  I have my doubts that an unrepentant mid life crisis every feels normal.  My heart really goes out to them.

Hugs Stayed
Married 39yrs.
Reconciled July 5, 2006

"Don't be so open minded your brains fall out".  by Stephen A. Kallis, Jr.
"We believe marriage is sacred, but it is not our job to save marriages; it is our goal to empower each of you to save your own marriage."

Stayed Husband Letter
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Offline dbpb

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #106 on: December 07, 2014, 01:58:14 AM »
I have to agree with Stayed.
In my case, I have been divorced long time and ex has never shown remorse, or even said I'm sorry. However, I do think he has guilt, but he will not talk about what happened. I have even asked him specific questions explaining that it was the answers that would help me heal and to put my mind at rest, but I get nothing. He wants to sweep it all aside and thinks if we can be friends, then everything is ok.

Offline stayedTopic starter

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #107 on: December 07, 2014, 07:16:48 AM »
You know dbpb, maybe you should just tell him outright.  I am not your friend.  My friends don't betray me, run away from all their parental responsibilities and then pretend it never happened.

Seriously my friend, what do you have to lose?

Hugs Stayed
Married 39yrs.
Reconciled July 5, 2006

"Don't be so open minded your brains fall out".  by Stephen A. Kallis, Jr.
"We believe marriage is sacred, but it is not our job to save marriages; it is our goal to empower each of you to save your own marriage."

Stayed Husband Letter
The Hero's Spouse Mission Statement
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The Mentor Program
LBS SCRIPT

Offline MIMIx

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #108 on: December 07, 2014, 03:07:09 PM »
If we need to help them along in facing themselves, I would like to know how a person does this?  Leading by example? 

Offline Trusting in Goodness and God

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #109 on: December 07, 2014, 04:54:41 PM »
I have to agree with Stayed.
In my case, I have been divorced long time and ex has never shown remorse, or even said I'm sorry. However, I do think he has guilt, but he will not talk about what happened. I have even asked him specific questions explaining that it was the answers that would help me heal and to put my mind at rest, but I get nothing. He wants to sweep it all aside and thinks if we can be friends, then everything is ok.

My husband came out with the nonsense of wanting to end up friends in the early days of our separation.  I told him that no one who behaved the way that he did qualified to be my friend;  that was the end of that, lol.

Offline stayedTopic starter

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #110 on: December 07, 2014, 11:23:23 PM »
Yes MiMix... the only way you can give any sort of assistance is strictly through example. You can't tell anybody how to do anything.  You can't force anybody to look within.  You can leave them to sort it our on their own and continue to get strong and healthy.  When they look at you, then and hopefully then, they will THINK, what's she doing that I'm not doing. 

Mine came home half cooked.  I spent the first 6 months doing what I always had done... TRYING TO FIX HIM!  I was so FRUSTRATED!  Angry.  Anxiety attacks set in.  My friends from another forum explained that I was having anxiety attacks.  That I was trying to control this outcome and my subconscious was taking over now and "forcing" me to back away.  Leave him to his nonsense.  Get healthy Stayed... and let him SEE how it's done. 

We can not fix them.  If they want to be fixed, get well, then they will figure out.  I don't know what the statistics are on "recovery" from MLC, but unless they do it on their own... it is not going to get done!  Sadly! :(

Hugs Stayed
Married 39yrs.
Reconciled July 5, 2006

"Don't be so open minded your brains fall out".  by Stephen A. Kallis, Jr.
"We believe marriage is sacred, but it is not our job to save marriages; it is our goal to empower each of you to save your own marriage."

Stayed Husband Letter
The Hero's Spouse Mission Statement
Survival Instructions for Newbies
The Mentor Program
LBS SCRIPT

Offline Maelstrom999

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #111 on: December 08, 2014, 01:22:43 AM »
My situation is a bit different. BD was 25th November. He said he didn;'t love me any more crying whilst he said it. He said he was so unhappy. When he saw what this did to me (a usually extremely strong and together woman) he showed genuine remorse - within 24 hours of telling me. He said he thought about looking for an OW but would not do this as he respects me too much. He talked about letting me stay in the house with the kids, he'd be happy to live in a tent and realised he would have no money as we were financially joined together. In other words he had been planning all of this for a while. Day 3 we had another long conversation where he cried again and said he was sorry for causing me all this pain - he just didn;'t realise how much I loved him. I asked for a few weeks NC to get my head straight which he agreed to. (no need to move out for this as we have staggered shifts and he is going a way in the middle of it) It is now 6 days until we have agreed to reconvene. He said there was no emotion there on the day he told me, he then said a few days later that  he believes there is some emotion due to how he feels since he told me. He was relieved for about half an hour then seemed to be as devastated as I was.
My question is if he showed genuine remorse so early on, is this likely to be MLC or is it just that he thought he had fallen out of love (it happens)

Offline stayedTopic starter

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #112 on: December 08, 2014, 02:08:02 AM »
Read the articles Maelstrom, they all feel TERRIBLE in the very beginning.  They appear to be genuinely remorseful.  Come back and report how he is on your next DISCUSSION! 

If this actually ends this crisis, I would say, your h is having a "transition"... not a full out crisis.  Often though, transitions, forecast a future full blown mid life crisis later down the road.

I will be interested to see how your next discussion goes.

Hugs Stayed
Married 39yrs.
Reconciled July 5, 2006

"Don't be so open minded your brains fall out".  by Stephen A. Kallis, Jr.
"We believe marriage is sacred, but it is not our job to save marriages; it is our goal to empower each of you to save your own marriage."

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Offline MIMIx

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #113 on: December 08, 2014, 04:21:57 AM »
Maelstrom,

It sounds like your h is much the same as mine.

 Mine has now been gone 19 months.  He got worse and worse as time went by.  His life became more difficult.  He eventually began with all the Script stuff trying to justify what he had done.  He told me these things like he was standing in front of an audience reading a speech.  His latest tactic > trying to put it all out of his mind, hoping it will just go away with time and we will all just forget about it.  What he doesn't realize, is that it is getting worse for us  as time goes by.  We felt bad for him at first and now we are all just fed up and mad at him. 

H has told me that he is suffering mentally and physically.  His answer > run away again and try to get it all off his mind.

I hope your h does not follow this pattern.  Mine is in such a terrible state right now and it is causing me great distress as I cannot help him.

Offline MIMIx

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #114 on: December 08, 2014, 04:30:57 AM »
Stayed,

How do you feel about a few little truth darts?  Some little truth darts might shake him up a bit.   I don't know what they would be at this point, but I'm so mad and fed up that I'm ready to deliver a few.  Nothing disrespectful or terribly unkind.  Just something to think about.  Like...its time you make your own Christmas traditions in your own way.  I will carry on with mine, without you.

He needs to feel the LOSS OF ME. 

Offline stayedTopic starter

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #115 on: December 08, 2014, 08:58:32 AM »
MiMiX, Ready2Transform said exactly how I feel.  Once we begin to heal we know we are getting there when this happens"

Quote
The consistencies I've noticed across the board for reconnections, no matter what the contact type or energy level of the MLCer are:

The LBS becomes confident in themselves
The LBS sheds any codependent tendencies
The LBS finds strength in their intuition
The LBS finds the strength to speak freely in their own power to the MLCer, unaffected by any potential outcome


There is no technique, tactic, or formula more potent than strength and honesty.  It's unrealistic to say we do not affect them at all - we are the most important relationship of their adult life, no matter what the outcome.  But underlying everything, I have seen from all of your examples that if I know who I am, if I know what I believe, and if I let that be my voice - not my husband, an expert, or even family and friends, as well meaning as they are - what others refer to as miracles will happen in my life.  I believe that is the magic of our community, and if anything is to be stressed to newbies, that is it. 

Her most important comment was her 4th.  About speaking to your MLCer without worrying about the consequences.  I truly believe that we have no need to beat them up, or verbally abuse them, but HOLDING our tongue so we don't hurt their feelings, or out of "fear" of PUSHING THEM INTO THE ARMS of somebody else, or at least completely out of ours...

Speak away.  They will IGNOR anything they don't want to embrace now anyway... so don't worry about it.  I do know that they remember this, much more so, then some seem to think they do.  My h definitely remembers it all.  He knew he was being a $hit, but he just kept on being it, because he WANTED TO... some crazy idea that he was standing up for himself.  I give up. 

Speak your mind MiMiX... just don't stoop to levels you will regret.

Hugs Stayed
Married 39yrs.
Reconciled July 5, 2006

"Don't be so open minded your brains fall out".  by Stephen A. Kallis, Jr.
"We believe marriage is sacred, but it is not our job to save marriages; it is our goal to empower each of you to save your own marriage."

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Offline MIMIx

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #116 on: December 08, 2014, 05:47:56 PM »
Yeah, my h remembers some things and does not remember others.  Honestly, he can say some mean stuff. .. calls it being honest.  And, he is another one who keeps doing crazy $h!te because he wants us to think he is standing up for himself...being a strong man.  I can tell it's all a farce by his sheepishness.

I think I am finally ready to say what I feel regardless of the outcome.   I'm ready to take the consequences.  I have figured out how to be single once again.  My kids are behind me 100%. 

Offline stayedTopic starter

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #117 on: December 09, 2014, 05:44:45 AM »
I can honestly say, I am not surprised that you have figured it out MiMiX... everything about this $hit stinks!  It is just over the top bull$hit.  As you said, you have FIGURED out the SINGLE life thing again, your children support you.  I think as long as we do anything within the framework of our personal moral standards, we will be just fine.  None of us want to see our MLCer suffer, wish I could say the same about them in regards to us, but there you have it.

Do what you know in your heart is right.  That really is all any of us can do.  Be true to ourselves. 

Hugs Stayed
Married 39yrs.
Reconciled July 5, 2006

"Don't be so open minded your brains fall out".  by Stephen A. Kallis, Jr.
"We believe marriage is sacred, but it is not our job to save marriages; it is our goal to empower each of you to save your own marriage."

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Offline alwayshope

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #118 on: December 09, 2014, 06:02:56 AM »
Was inspired today, thought this an appropriate place to post:

I was reminded today of 'heart', and what it means to have it.  Not the fact that I have one, we all do, but the driving force of what keeps you going through all circumstances.  How hard will you fight for what you believe in?  At what point does your drive kick in?  When all odds are against you, when people disagree and judge you, but you know - you just KNOW you have to keep going... That's heart.  Sometimes you just need to believe in yourself, and in some unexplainable way, you find the strength to do it.  Bravo.  Win or lose, when you go after it with all your heart?  You are stronger, better, wiser.  There comes a sense of freedom when you accomplish this.  Free from what everyone may or may not think or feel.  Free from everybody else's black and white ways of viewing how you need to live your life.  Sometimes you just want to fly the bird at the world, heart changes that to giving yourself a big thumbs up instead.

Offline 31andcounting

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #119 on: December 09, 2014, 07:01:56 AM »
alwayshope~   I agree with your post, thumbs up to you!
31
Hurting people hurt people :(

Offline dbpb

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #120 on: December 10, 2014, 06:06:56 AM »
This is in response to a question Stayed asked me back on 12/7. I had to really think about "what did I have to lose" if I spoke to ex.about our so called" friendship". I do try to be" friends" for our 4 children's sake , as I think it is much easier on them.

There was an additional post that mentioned the 4 consistencies of reconnection--I obviously  have to work on #4. I think this is where I am stuck. Why--because I am afraid.

Short version of why I am afraid.  Our oldest son has always been a "problem child" that caused some issues in the marriage--we got a long very well, except for this area. Fast forward to time of divorce-ex mentioned this was one of the main reasons he wanted divorce. He sent this son back to his parents town, so they could help him as needed, as I was so devastated by divorce that I just couldn't handle him and his problems at the time.
  Approx 8 yrs ago, this son was diagnosed with a mental illness after my ex in-laws called ex and told them something was wrong with our son and he needed to come get him. Bottom line, is son was pretty much left at my house to deal with him and get him mental help. After a time of several months dealing with this, I was desperate for some help as it was getting to be too much to work full time and then take care of mentally ill son. I met with a psychologist who agreed that ex needed to step up to the plate and give me some much needed help.
I had to call my ex and literally beg him to help  me with our son. He agreed to meet the psychologist, who spoke with him. Ex agreed to help and a plan was sset up by him and the psychologist on howto give me one evening a week break.

Ex has kept his end of the bargain with this and has pitched in a little more with additional help over the years. However, this son and his illness can still cause problems and one time in anger ex, commented that if son doesn't follow the rules, he is "done." That is what really scares me. I cannot deal with this son by myself and there is no family close by.

So that is why I don't speak up and clarify the "friend" thing.  I haven't developed enough confidence in myself.
 Sorry aabout the long response.

Offline stayedTopic starter

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #121 on: December 10, 2014, 06:29:29 AM »
((((((((((((hugs dbpb)))))))))))))))))))) that took a lot of courage to be that honest.  This is so wrong, on so many levels, my friend.  You didn't make son on your own, yet your h who ran off, found himself a prosperous partner and lives an enchanted life, leaving you to deal with a mentally, handicapped son.  This child is just as much as his as he is yours. 

Your h is basically holding you HOSTAGE, dbpb!  He has basically told you, treat me right lady, or I will abandon you again, and not return this time, if you do not play by my rules.  Do you really need his help that much now db?  There are SUPPORT groups for people in your situation.  I would rather ask a total stranger to take my son ONE NIGHT a week, then have to place nice, with such a DESPICABLE person, as your h. 

You are much tougher then me db.

Hugs Stayed
Married 39yrs.
Reconciled July 5, 2006

"Don't be so open minded your brains fall out".  by Stephen A. Kallis, Jr.
"We believe marriage is sacred, but it is not our job to save marriages; it is our goal to empower each of you to save your own marriage."

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Online Mitzpah

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #122 on: December 10, 2014, 09:23:33 AM »
Dbpb,

You are my heroine! :)

It is always hard to deal with mental illness in family members, let alone, your own son. I can only imagine how hard that must be :(

I can understand Stayed's way of thinking, maybe if your h. 'threatens' to drop the ball again, you can  say that you will find a carer for his night of the week? After all you seem to bear the most part of the burden. I know that for you to continue caring for him, you need that free night a week.

I can understand the lack of confidence, these things knock us sideways and we find it very, very hard to stand up straight again.


((((Hugs))))
M 56
H 56
S 26
S 24
D 23
BD 13 Dec 2010
Divorced 27 Feb 2015 (30 years marriage)

"For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future" Jeremiah 29:11

Offline stayedTopic starter

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #123 on: December 10, 2014, 10:05:17 AM »
Exactly Mitzpah.  Rather then be SILENCED because you fear he will "withdraw" his one night a week obligation, it would be wonderful if you could find a support group that would help you to find somebody to do that night for you.  You might even find people that you can TALK about this with, which would probably be a wonderful relief for you, as I suspect your h doesn't want to talk about his son's condition, in any great detail.  Men can be so odd, about such things, I guess they must think that it is their fault or something.  Mental health is not always hereditary.  Still men can't bare even a hint that it could have come from him!  Silly...

Ready2Transform wrote the most amazing observation.  This is how she see's the recovery of the LBS evolving.  I you have reached the first 3 Dbpb.. ... now if you could reach #4.  I think you would find that goal of peace and contentment that all LBS's seek.

Quote
   
1.  The LBS becomes confident in themselves
2.  The LBS sheds any codependent tendencies
3.  The LBS finds strength in their intuition
4.  The LBS finds the strength to speak freely in their own power to the MLCer, unaffected by any potential outcome

We can get there.  We have to work at it, for sure.  Sadly, it doesn't just happen, but each year, does get easier and better.  I think if you got some willing "help" one night a week for your son, then you could be up front and honest with your h.  You could then say to him, I really wanted to try to be your friend, for the sake of our children and our oldest son, but seriously, you are not the type of person I would be friends with.  Friends that I have, don't lie, cheat, betray and abandon, their spouse and 4 children.  You did.  Making matters even worse, you have tried to give my place in the family to your new partner. 

No h, I don't have FRIENDS that treat me like that.  Sorry.  If you ever want to be a REAL friend... come and talk to me.  As things are, you have never asked for my forgiveness, you have never shown one once of remorse and you seem to think you can walk in and out of my HOME freely. 

Not sure why, but I think you would feel really good to actually SPEAK honestly about what you think of this situation.

Hugs Stayed

Married 39yrs.
Reconciled July 5, 2006

"Don't be so open minded your brains fall out".  by Stephen A. Kallis, Jr.
"We believe marriage is sacred, but it is not our job to save marriages; it is our goal to empower each of you to save your own marriage."

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Offline Magnite38

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #124 on: December 10, 2014, 11:29:57 AM »
I agree don't give you h so much power over you.  I think it is better for your mental health to just keep away from him.  I have 3 little kids and if I need a night out I have back up if my unreliable ex backs out.  They love the control and trying to make you miserable...don't let him.  Seek support in the community maybe you can find more respite out there for you. (((Hugs)))

Offline Songanddance

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #125 on: December 10, 2014, 03:05:43 PM »
Agree with Stayed here.

Might I ask what the nature of the mental illness is? It may be possible to get support groups.

I have a friend whose youngest son is severely autistic. His autism created such problems that divorce happened as neither she nor H could cope with the strain. H did step up though even though S lived with my friend.  When the S was 13 though my friend had to make the heartbreaking decision to sign him into a home for teenagers and young adults with severe behavioural difficulties. She said she cried every day for about a year but began to see a transformation in herself and her S. The H still in the scene and still supporting financially but not pro-active.
Four years on - my friend has her S with her every weekend and the ex H contributes to that. He has since remarried. My friend is in a sort of R.
She doesn't regret seeking help or making that incredibly hard decision because she regained her life back and has learned so much about the condition that she is now on the national advisory panel. She is still a great mum, just watching her with S is inspiring and she is a good person.

Now of course I'm not suggesting you do the same - I'm just simply saying that there is help out there including respite care and third party care (someone comes in and looks after S so that you can have a little pamper time or even just sleep)

Your H should step up and see if there are mechanisms that can enforce this.

Don't be held to ransom and see what wriggle room you can start to negotiate.

Offline Maelstrom999

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #126 on: December 10, 2014, 04:29:27 PM »
H has come back from his trip.
I sent him a text (during no contact doh!) saying:
'I have made a decision. I can't go through hearing those words again (i.e I don't love you anymore) so if you decide that this is the end can you go straight to your friends house and not come home to talk on Saturday. I am telling you this now so that you have time to consider what you really want and that if you do decide you want to try to rebuild your love for me it will be for the right reasons'

Yes I know I am weak but I was in such a state all weekend I just needed to ensure that he was using this time to sort his head out if possible)

This is what I got back:
'I will  be there on Saturday. i feel I have to try. After 30 years I can't throw it all away if there may be a chance. I still care and respect you if that is in place then maybe we can turn this around x' (he only ever ends his texts with a full stop!)

The I get a call from my 24 year old son (who does not realise that we have done this no contact (well semi) saying that when H got home from his trip he wrote a really nasty note saying 'thanks for leaving so many towels on the floor, they are all in the bath for you boys to sort out. There are no bowls in the cupboard, get them down from your rooms. I am not being a parent to you anymore you are old enough to sort yourselves out. WELCOME HOME DAD, or rather not welcome home.  Obviously my son was upset about this and decided to throw it away so his younger brothers didnt have to see it. This seems like monster behaviour to me.

So one minute I think this can;t be MLC as he is straight away willing to try, (or are these just words so that he can pretend he's done his best) then he demonstrates outrageous anger to his sons!

I feel relieved that we are not splitting yet but this feeling of doom that I have to walk on egg shells and try to win him back when I have a smashed heart. Not sure how I am going to do this!!

Offline stayedTopic starter

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #127 on: December 10, 2014, 10:28:25 PM »
Maelstrom, you have it all wrong.  You DON'T HAVE TO PROVE anything to your h.  You need to grow a backbone and I think you will be astounded at how much he will respond to that.  A strong, attractive, smart, independent partner is much more appealing then you might think.  TRYING to WIN HIM BACK, will backfire... we can all assure you of that... WE ALL HAVWE TRIED.... it was not until I was strong and indifferent to what my h THOUGHT he wanted from me, that we began to really CLICK again.

Back away from him Maelstrom.  don't try to win him... you can't win that battle as he will see it TOO MUCH... TOO LATE... or why wasn't she like this before... or she is pathetic and weak and just trying to TRICK me back to her... YOU CAN NOT WIN THIS, if you try to force yourself to change.  He doesn't know what a person should or shouldn't be like. 

Hugs Stayed

Merry Christmas everybody... hugs Stayed
Married 39yrs.
Reconciled July 5, 2006

"Don't be so open minded your brains fall out".  by Stephen A. Kallis, Jr.
"We believe marriage is sacred, but it is not our job to save marriages; it is our goal to empower each of you to save your own marriage."

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Offline dbpb

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #128 on: December 11, 2014, 03:22:11 AM »
Additional info on my situation:

My son was diagnosed with schizophreniz several years ago and it has been a real rollarcoaster. WE do have a mental health facility here and they have been of great help. I have belonged to a support group for families with a mentally ill member-however it is very small and although we help each other with advice, etc, it is not the type of group that would physically help with your ill family member. It is mainly a group to help new members learn how the mental health system works, etc.

This son lives in his own apt now, at the advice of mental health people.,but needs much supervision, to make sure it is somewhat clean. He doesn't clean on his own, so you have to help him. He spends his days drinking coffee and smoking. I take him to all his dr appointments, etc as he cannot drive.. Its very sad, but he has actually improved. He will never be able to hold down a "normal job, because of the illness. He also has no friends and calls his dad and me each 3-4 times a day. I could write pages on having a mentally ill child, but will spare all of you.

As for my ex, he always seemed to think this son was just a behavior problem and for a long time he and his parents thought it was the way I was taking care of him. Once son was diagnosed with a true mental illness, he has slowly become more involved, mainly financially. Thanks to the psychologist, He does take son out to eat once a week and they go grocery shopping. Ex's OW has not wanted anything to do with this son and is not at all interested in learning about his illness. So, son is not welcome at their house. I know he has used her as an excuse to avoid his son at times.

Ex husband is not all bad-like I said he has come a long way since son's diagnosis. He also joined the support group and I think it helped him to be around a few other men who have mentally ill child. It is hard for me to be there at same time as I feel it is difficult for either of us to speak freely, since we are divorced.  I just think it is easier for him to give financially. He and his OW are quite active socially and that still  seems to take priority, but he has recently said I can call anytime if there is a problem. He really does expect me to be the main caretaker with him-I sometimes feel like I'm the unpaid help.

His primary world continues to be life with OW and his original family comes in second. However, he is showing more interest in his other kids in the last couple of years. My daughter has even noticed.

I hope that clarifies things a little better.

Offline toomanytearss

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #129 on: December 11, 2014, 05:52:18 AM »
Maelstrom - please listen to stayed.  She could have written those words to me - and probably has several times.  :P  Read my thread if you get time cause I think you will see that my h has said pretty much the same words yours is saying and, well, lets just say I'm on my own way now. 

HUGS.
BD Feb 2014
DONE

Offline Slow Fade

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #130 on: December 11, 2014, 08:18:15 AM »
Maelstrom I agree with Stayed and TMT. Detach, work on yourself. You cannot "win" him back. What will you have "won"? A broken man that you have to tiptoe around every moment? What kind of marriage is that? Stand up and be strong. I know its hard and it seems counter intuitive, but its the only way to get yourself into a healthy place and move through this situation.

You have to get to the place where you are not afraid to speak your truth regardless of what he may think. You have to get to the place where you are not afraid to let him go. You have to get to the place where you are important and strong and decisive. If you operate out of fear, you will lose yourself. No one else is worth losing yourself over.

((hugs))
Married 18
BD April 2012
Left home Nov 2012
Home May 2016

Offline maomina

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #131 on: March 31, 2015, 03:47:35 AM »
Ex did actually say I'm sorry I know I hurt you a lot (never looking in my eyes while h said so) he even admitted to be 75 percent at fault but he's done nothing to make it better only made it worse !
Put a knife  through your heart and twist it and hundred times, does it hurt, this what my kids feel. Put a second knife through your heart and twist them both a hundred times and this is what I feel for I carry the pain of my children in my heart as well as mine!!!

Offline Songanddance

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #132 on: April 03, 2015, 06:28:53 AM »
Quote
Ex did actually say I'm sorry I know I hurt you a lot (never looking in my eyes while h said so)

In which case - that was just guilt. True remorse takes much more than an apology. My H said he was so sorry and was in tears 6 months after BD. He looked straight at me and then spent the weekend with OW. 

Whilst the monster has hold - there can never be true remorse but lots and lots of guilt.

Offline maomina

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #133 on: April 03, 2015, 11:04:46 AM »
Guilt = alienation!! They alienate themselves as much as possible and ow surely knows how to help with the alienation!!
 My ex was a drug addict and he blames me for his addiction!! He now says that he's clean! Ow trapped him and got pregnant and managed to convince him to leave the country with her! New country = alienation, new family = alienation, new job =alienation!!
He said that he misses the kids but he barely calls, he said that he was holding back from the baby cause he was not giving attention to d and s and still he does not call regularly! Words that speak of guilt but no action done!!
Put a knife  through your heart and twist it and hundred times, does it hurt, this what my kids feel. Put a second knife through your heart and twist them both a hundred times and this is what I feel for I carry the pain of my children in my heart as well as mine!!!

Offline Difrent

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #134 on: September 23, 2015, 01:09:25 PM »
This is great. My WW is racked with guilt, but there is no remorse. So helpful to see it all spelled out like this.
Me: 46 Her: 41
M: 5.5 yrs / S: 20, 18
3/26 W and I meet OW
BD: 5/2/2015, she takes off ring
W all but moves out 6/26
NC: 9/5

Offline Sahmom

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #135 on: November 25, 2015, 04:18:58 PM »
Sorry seems to be the hardest word.

My H does not say sorry easily. Not unless he accidentally hurt me physically, like drop something on my toe. Something like that.

If he does emerge from the fog, I don't expect to hear a sorry.

This post helped me to understand the difference in guilt and remorse. LIKE Stayed! Thanks.

Sahmom

Offline GrowingStrong

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #136 on: January 22, 2016, 10:26:18 PM »
I love it! Makes so much sense and gives me hope for my personal growth. I want to be accountable for my past regrets so I can really heal and leave them behind me. Thank you so much for sharing!
"Growth is the only evidence of life." John Henry Newman

Offline toomanytearss

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #137 on: January 23, 2016, 03:29:40 PM »
Two very important things I've learned from this.  And these are just my beliefs, I don't know if they are right or wrong. 

1.  You must be strong - strong in the sense of taking care of you and your children, finances, etc.  Strong about your boundaries.  I don't know how exactly to explain it, but it is very important.  Most especially for you but also the mlc'r sees any emotional distress or struggle as a weakness to be taken advantage of.  I know this.  I've been down this road. 

2.  Words without actions are meaningless.  Very important!!!  If the actions don't CONSISTENTLY match the words then the words mean nothing.  This can be applied to all people in your life.  Pay close attention to this. 
BD Feb 2014
DONE

Online Searching4Answers

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #138 on: January 24, 2016, 07:54:50 AM »
Two very important things I've learned from this.  And these are just my beliefs, I don't know if they are right or wrong. 

1.  You must be strong - strong in the sense of taking care of you and your children, finances, etc.  Strong about your boundaries.  I don't know how exactly to explain it, but it is very important.  Most especially for you but also the mlc'r sees any emotional distress or struggle as a weakness to be taken advantage of.  I know this.  I've been down this road. 

2.  Words without actions are meaningless.  Very important!!!  If the actions don't CONSISTENTLY match the words then the words mean nothing.  This can be applied to all people in your life.  Pay close attention to this.

I completely agree tmt ;)

The 'words without actions are meaningless' is a big one for me. My ex thinks that his words are more important than his actions - his words are basically empty but his actions speak volumes. In the early days of our relationship they somewhat matched but once he realized that I "believed" his words the actions started to disconnect. It is hard to fake action, in my opinion, where as words can be said with no meaning behind them. I am getting better at observing the actions.
We all do damage. Character is determined by how we repair it.


BD - December 2012
OW1 confirmed - December 2012 on-and-off for 34 months and counting (still refers to her as just a 'friend')
Wants to live like roommates - November 2013
I moved out - April 2015
H is still checking the anchor

Offline GrowingStrong

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #139 on: January 25, 2016, 10:21:14 PM »
I want to thank you for posting this again....I have thought of it so many times since I read it last week and want to print it and keep it. GREAT insight!
"Growth is the only evidence of life." John Henry Newman

Offline Beacon Of Hope

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #140 on: February 25, 2016, 05:58:54 AM »
I think that in moments of clarity they say sorry and they do mean it but when the fog comes back over them that makes remorse impossible. My W has had a few moments of clarity when she has broke down sobbing saying "I'm so sorry, Ive F'd Up" and just holds me tight. I believe that she truly is sorry but hours later when the fog comes creeping back in that makes any signs of remorse impossible. Plus for my wife actually saying the words I'm sorry is very difficult for her and when she finally does say it she has reached down to the depths to pull those words out. it's very tricky and like many people have said you will know the difference when you see it.

Offline MIMIx

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #141 on: February 25, 2016, 11:18:52 AM »
I actually think that "guilt" holds our MLCer back.  They feel guilt, then they figure, in for a penny, in for a pound.  So they compound it.  Then they get angry, because we are MAKING them feel guilty. 

Yep, USELESS, TOXIC emotion!  Does more damage then good.

Hugs Stayed

Omg, so true.  I'm sure this applies to many, many who do not return or are a long time in returning.  Great post!

Offline Reallytrying

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Re: Guilt vs Remorse #2
« Reply #142 on: February 26, 2016, 05:28:24 AM »
I read that one of the reasons guilt holds them back is because it convinces them they are good people - prevents them from hitting bottom. "At least I feel guilty about all this". The guilt keeps them stuck essentially.

 

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