[Storm Rider]

I thought I would start a topic on what we see as our H's start to approach Liminality. RCR describes liminality during the MLC journey as the Depression and Withdrawn stages combined, the turning point of the MLC journey, where they have exhausted running during Replay, and get to the place where they have no option but to finally start looking within themselves. As with all places along this journey, the MLCer may approach luminosity, and back away many times before residing there as their main action. RCR has written quite a bit about how she sees this:

http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/liminality.html

After thinking about a question Voyager mentioned to me a few days ago, I think I am seeing my H approach luminosity, he also still seems to be bouncing in and out of it, but I thought I would describe how I have seen changes in my H's depression over the last six months and see if others have noticed anything like what I have seen.

Mt H has had depression through out this crisis. He had a deep noticeable bout that lasted a few months during the Denial phase, about six months before bomb drop. During this period, a usually very active person, he lay in bed all day, withdraw completely, and had classic symptoms. As he came out of this period, he moved into full on Anger and Replay (I think this gave him the energy to move out of depression), towards BD, and away he went. During the first 18 months of replay, I would see small periods of depression, several months apart, but he would recover from these with replay actions.

For the last six months (about 18 months post BD), has has moved more and more into a permanent state of depression. The first couple of months were as replay activities started to catch up with him, in particular, he ran out of money and started to get calls from creditors. His view during this period was mostly blaming other people "why does all this bad luck happen to me?". He thought he had a great childhood and divorce did not affect him at all. He started to get very depressed, this was the first period he talked about taking his own life. His method of dealing with creditors during this phrase was to tell them he would pay them in a few weeks with no real plans or ability to do so. During this period which lasted a few months, he would pull himself out of depression through replay activities, parties, and with OW who he was still getting a high with. His treatment of me during this period was good, we continued to interact in more positive manner than previous, he hid most of his depression from me and all in his life although I could see it. He would be very down for a couple of weeks, then ok for a couple of weeks. He said he was just having the odd down day, but was not depressed.

The next change in his depression came when he realised he had better start to deal with the mess he had made financially (and in other areas in his life to some extent, but financial was his biggest problem at that stage). He started to actually come up with solutions for his creditors, but these were unrealistic. His main solution was to get a large bank loan, he was completely blind sided when the banks did not come to the party as GFC had changed what they would lend compared to pre GFC when he last got a loan. I think he had always thought another loan would be his get out of jail card, and he was shocked when it did not happen. At this stage, his depression again kicked in, but this time he acknowledged that he was to blame for where his life had got. He did not have a clue how to move forward, seemed very stuck, and would be very down for a couple of weeks, then pull himself up, but perhaps towards OW, although did not come back from spending time with her as happy as previous,, with other replay actions dropping off. His depression started to impact on his work, and they gave him a formal warning. It pervaded all areas of his life, he again spoke about taking his life and was in dispair. During this period, he continued to hide his depression from his family and friends, although they picked it up from the tone of his voice. He admitted to me he was depressed, even spoke about going to see someone, but was not in a place to do this. He moved towards me during this period, he would turn up down and after spending several hours with me, would leave in a better place. He continued to be considerate in his actions towards me, as much as he was able to during this period. At the end of this period, he lost his job, and came extremely close to being killed by a random Act of God.

For the last month, I have seen a different depression kick in. H has taken active and realistic steps to sort of his problems with creditors. For the first time, he has shown his family his depression and appears to be letting them help him with it and practical solutions. For the first time in over six months, I have seen low energy anger return, defiance and a short fuse, as well as much shorter mood swings. He may have broken up with OW at the start of this phase of anger, in which case there could be OW withdrawal. He quit his new job, although has another lined up. I also see this anger as him gathering energy to try to move out of the place he is in.  He is also withdrawing from me, and for the last couple of weeks has made no attempts to hang with me in order to feel better, he is niggling away to pick fights and shows little consideration in areas such as smooth toddler hand overs.

I am not sure where he is at in his journey. He cycles a lot, I would continue to expect him to do so. Perhaps he has started to hit liminality, although is bouncing back up out of it, although not as far.  He can clearly see his faults, the impact his childhood on who he has become, his shadow self, but currently does not believe he is able to move out of Shadow, he fears that is who he is permanently. That has always been one of his biggest fears, that he is all his worst features.  He wants to BE a good role model for his children, not just tell them the right thing to do.  He sees most parts of who he is much clearer (on a good day!), he perhaps sees the skin of his Self, and knows what parts he would like to shed, and who he would like to be, but not how to get there.

I am interested to see what other who are around a similar place have seen in their sitchs compared to me!

[Shantilly Lace]

I don't know it may be simply the holiday season but I have noticed H cycling faster. He has been steadily getting closer moving from months to weeks and the last week or so even daily. Sunday night withdrawn, Monday morning ok, Monday evening ok, Monday night withdrawn, tuesday morning withdrawn, tuesday evening ok. What will night bring.
Not rude just withdrawn.
This afternoon though full of plans for the house, playing with the dogs doing stuff for his birds.

3 weeks ago he was anxious to move this week i found out he hasn't even bothered looking. Lease is up in the new year.

His job is ok, he hates his job. The depression is hard to watch isn't it. But for me as ow is still around he is still in replay running hard.

[justasking]

My H almost mirrors Storms H.

H has run with depression on and off throughout. My H was depressed and withdrawn in denial and anger.

As he went into replay big time his depression was also evident, spending many hours on his own away from the family. H finally left home in Sept 09. He had lots of touch and goes from when he left our home until May 10. Before May he kept in constant contact with me via telephone or text. He wanted to help with the house etc. At this time he got very very close despite OW being in the background.

In May he withdrew from me although maintained contact with the children although it was less intense. They had days when they didn't hear from him. He never text me or kept in contact. He continued to visit weekly to see the children. My eldest D22 who is at Uni didn't hear from him for 10 weeks after she threw truth darts at him. His depression increased and that was evident to me. He would sit and stare at the television but see nothing. He spent no time with me when he visited but stayed away from me. The relationship did change with OW at this time. He left his flat and moved into her house and bought her an engagement ring in March/April. I believe her demands increased for a committment.

His awakening started in Sept. I started to see my H reappear. Although there was no contact between visits he started to spend time with me when he was home. His connection with the kids increased again. His depression was still evident but it came across as 'what have I done'.

His business had been slipping for months but he had a nonchalant approach to it and kept spending. As his awakening began he acknowledged that money was very tight and the business 'not good'. His replay behaviours started to disappear and his spending less. Creditors started chasing him.

In Nov his mood became better. I now Know he was cake eating. He had found a way to keep me and OW happy and he felt life was good. I know this had to stop and this is when I told him her or me NOT both. H admitted at this stage he wasn't sleeping, not eating and his world was caving in around him. He verbalised wanting to disappear. This ultimatum shot him back into the fog like a bullet. No contact with me between visits again and little contact when he visited, although he continued to talk about 'us' when he did intiate conversation. The business continue to slide and his money problems increase significantly. At this stage he can barely pay the staff and he reduces the money coming into our house.

His depression is lightened by taking OW to NY for a weekend, despite no money in the bank to run the business or for me to run the home where his children live. He had one more attempt to stave off his total unhappiness. I was angry about this and I gave him more truth darts about his spending and the impending bankrutcy he maybe facing.

In the last two weeks another H is emerging. After my reassurance initiated by him that I didn't despise him he has again moved forward. He is spending less and less time with OW by visiting home and taking the kids out. This week he has text me and telephoned me between visits, something that hasn't happened since May. There is a twinkle in his eye and we actually laughed the other day. H still uses some justification to get what he wants i.e he isn't coming Chrismas day because I don't want him too. I challenged that comment as he told the kids that.

I think H is struggling to move into the next stage because of OW. She has her claws into him and at the moment he doesn't have the strength to dump her, though I pray that he does. His depression seems lighter but I think Christmas day will have a significant impact on him. I think the guilt for not seeing the kids will be enormous. I hope it will again clear the fog for movement forward and dumping of OW.

Storm thank you for starting this discussion. It has been really cathartic and allowed me to reflect on H and his depression which I have never done before.

xx

[watching and waiting]

My H also follows Storms H in all this.
Her account could very well fit my H's journey.
My H is at the stage of talking suicide at times.
 He is showing his depression and the creditors are banging on the door.
What he is doing about this I have no idea.
He seems to be looking for answers but trying out quick fixes at the moment,
which as we know will not work.

Thankyou storm for your insight into your sitch and where your H is on the journey.
It is good to know that what we are seeing, others are witnessing too.

HUGS

[Storm Rider]

Shantilly,

Thanks for that. It seems within the bigger picture of what is happening, holiday events, birthdays and the like cause overprints, which may lead to further progress in their journey if they are in that place, or can be compared to how the cope with the next such event if they are still running hard.

JA,

I also started this discussion as I have only seen liminality as discussed in RCR's work mentioned in theory, not in current sitchs. It seems to be mentioned as general depression by those who have completed their journeys. Do you have any thoughts for where your H is at as far as recognising his issues, seeing his Shadow etc? It seems to me that your H recognised his issues, I am not sure if he sees Shadow, he seems to know where he wants to go and is building up the energy to get there.

W&W,

I know your H has been talking for about the same time my has of taking his life, although at times I can clearly see it is a poor me call, other times I have been very concerned, and rightly so from what I have read about depression. I have a brother who in the last two years had very bad depression, ended up in emergency wards, and Committed into institutions through serious suicide attempts on countless times, and the similarities between H in his darkest period have scary. Do keep an eye on this in your H. That he is now looking for answers is showing that at least he is not stuck, even if they are not the right ones yet.

[Shantilly Lace]

Oh yeah I forgot the comments he's made recently of just wanting to hide from everything and everyone

[justkeepmoving]

I now believe my H has been in MLC for several years.  He has had a lot of disappointments in the employment area and it all came to a head when he broke his ankle at work.  He spent 5 months at home alone and I think it all became too much and felt he needed to run away.
His new life is not working the way he thought it would.  His R with his Ds is in the crapper.  And he is off of work yet again because of his ankle that hasn't mended properly.  I think he thought if he got a fresh start things would go better for him, but it hasn't.
I think he thinks that with time all his problems will just go away.  They won't until he faces what he's done to his life.  My hope is with this time off of work and away from me he will see that I was not actually to blame.  Not too sure if this will happen but I am hopeful.
This crisis has ripped the family apart, not just our immediate family but the extented family as well.
I have no contact with my H and he has very little with his own family unless his mom intiates it.  Not sure if he is liminality or is just plain withdrawn.  So very frustrating not knowing what's going on with him.  I am worried about his safety but nothing I can do but pray for him.

[Storm Rider]

JKM,

I too saw clear signs H was in MLC for a long time before BD. As I saw very strong replay actions starting 12 months before BD, I found it hard to work out where H was along his journey. But I think RCR has it pegged when she says even when we see MLC before BD, we can expect replay to pretty much last 2 years after BD, BD is when the clock starts. We see depression and withdrawal during this two year period, and it can at time be very dominant, but it seems the running away of replay takes on average two years before they exhaust themselves and replay stops being the major way they cope.

[Storm Rider]

I am still trying to get my head around liminality, the awakening at the end of replay, and how the decisions of what to do with their life are made after depression and withdrawal according to the six stages, so just thinking out loud here.

Perhaps the awakening at the end of replay is the first time they bounce in liminality. Liminality has to be a long process, but the self awareness that begins at the end of replay is a significant change. They then have many issues to work through, perhaps, some bounce into liminality for one issue at a time, and deal with that, the easiest ones first. Maybe they start with the easiest issues to peal away the layer so they can see what is left underneath that is still important in there lives. That is why we are left until last.

But some MLCers seem to decide to return without having pealed off the baggage, in particular the OW, so perhaps for them, deciding to return was the easy issue, letting go of the "freedom" of their new life is harder. But then, for those who do not consider their marriage until well into this process like my H who has not started looking at this yet, the "freedom" of the new life is also obviously very important.

Hmm, now I am more confused, have lost my train of thought, but it might come back later!

[Buggy31]

My H exhibited depression throughout..and even throughout replay (which he is still)....During the denial and anger stage his depression was expressed through angry tantrums, yelling, victimization (very unlike him)....then he really started to withdraw as he as slipping into replay at the end of 2008.  Sleeping on couch, distancing from me, just a real sense of slipping away...I watched him slip away right in front of my eyes...I wanted to help and fix and reached out.  So, as far as I know, the affair started in Jan 2009.

From Jan 2009-June 2010 he lived at home cylcing between me and being totally emotionally distant.  There was an occasional I love you and hug but it got worse and worse although sexual contact continued up until April 2010...mostly initiated at night in bed when the stakes were low.  His depression got really bad winter 2009-2010.  He would sit and stare at the tv...he was becoming a shell...no joy...no laughter. ...at this time I believe the affair which got more serious.  After he left in June.. I saw him cycyle between normalcy happiness..yet it could change on a dime....and anger/irritability would be revealed, I also saw teary, choked up H as well.  This really had no regularity to it but it reminded me of my H as a teengaer (been together a long time)....high voice cracking and him being really loud and silly or quiet and withdrawn on the verge of tears.  During this DEEP replay I saw a lot of children.  I would say 6-8 yr old, teenager, two-three year old, baby and perhaps 20ish.  Some encouters were very strange.  I really distanced myself in June to protect myself emotionally  but would respond normally, politely and friendly to him when here or when he called.  This sort of just p***** him off. 

At this point he is TOTALLy withdrawn from everyone.  He is living with the pregnant alienator and her three children.  He rarely calls to ask about the children or talk to daughter.  He is moving farther and farther away from us.  I'm currently in NC only communicating about the children over text.  He is currently in MONSTER and projecting blame onto me concerning the kids.  While I've tried to remove myself from his projections as best I could the sitch is complicated with the children and so I am firm with him.  His current involvement with the children appears to be a way to remove guilt, appease OW/assure her and to hurt me.  Otherwise I believe he would be gone.  The few occasions that I have spoken to him I am friendly but to the point getting off quickly for he tries to engage fast. 

I believe I have an MLCer whose shown cases of over depression throughout the process.  I don't believe we are near liminality but I feel like I often see him get to the cusp only to pull himself up with anger or replay.  Normally he suffers depression in the winter so I expect that this will affect MLC...April is always the worst part.  The dead look in my H's eyes has been significant since Jan 2009