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First one
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=10191.0


2nd one
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=10272.0

Third one
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=10298.0


4th thread
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=10581.0

[Songanddance]

I'll start it.  Today is 6 yrs anniversary of BD and I'm sure you dying to know how I feel??? 

My answer is "meh!".

I still remember vividly the days leading upto BD. H's mum had died 6 weeks earlier - we had had the funeral and H just flipped. He became very unpleasant, difficult, kept telling me "we were wrong" and eventually wrote me the BD letter in which he sat  crying like a little naughty boy in the corner and watched me read it. I remember too vividly going near to him and him shrieking "don't touch me"
I remember the disbelief, shock and anger that welled up inside me. 
I also remember thinking he had gone mad and it was his problem and perhaps I should just leave him to it.  He was the one who was wrong and needed to apologise were my second thoughts.  If only I had maintained that approach from the start!!

So 6 yrs on with very slow reconnection and no sense of moving forward in our R where am I now?   
Looking to sell the house - H knows and has now accepted. 
Working as a consultant for my business and yet enjoying retirement because I can choose when to do either
My children - all doing their own thing and enjoying life at the moment
Spending time with my gorgeous grand-daughter
Just being me and enjoying being me.

I have no major triggers anymore - I still have mindful moments where I process if something reminds me but they do not trigger me.

RE our R - I have no idea where we are.  I do feel that it is time for me to push slightly. Not quite sure how but I do feel it's time.  H has, in the last few weeks, been overtly demonstrating his love language (acts of service) where even my D was shocked. He's even volunteered to do paperwork (which he has always hated) and cook meals (first time in 30 years).
He sleeps a lot when coming back from work - he is exceptionally tired and not in the peak of health so I do have medical concerns too.  But he is slowly coming back to being more of the older H I first knew. 
However that doesn't mean we are moving towards any form of reconciliation and at best we are still very good housemates. 

So 6 yrs on - I continue to be proof of life after BD and ironically BD and MLC has done me a favour.  I think I would be a very different and quite possibly screwed up anxious person had none of this happened. 

Look for the good where you can - look for the opportunities rather than the negatives. 6yrs on - I'm where I told my T I wanted to be  - out of 10- I am an 11!

[Treasur]

What a lovely and encouraging update, Song. You sound both at peace and with a sense of control over the joys in your life. Lovely...you put in a lot of grit and effort to get here, and it is nice to hear that you have. 

[Believer]

Song,

So good to hear your update. It sounds as though you are feeling good about the different aspects of your life - family, work and you.

I’m sorry the reconnection isn’t as perhaps hoped at this point, however you are in a good place to determine how best to nudge your H. Glad he’s doing some positive things.

Hugs, Believer

[Anjae]

Hi Believer, nice to read you. I notice you posted on another thread you're ten years into this. Nice to know that there are more LBS with MLCers that have been in crisis for a very long time. 

[Believer]

Hi Anjae,

Yes, I’ve been at this a long time, as have you.

My exH is getting married to the OW this summer. We have chatted periodically throughout but for all intents he’s a vanisher.  We actually had dinner recently to “catch up” but he didn’t want to discuss anything about himself ( aka don’t ask me anything emotional...)
We had a nice dinner, he even told me to order whatever I wanted... gotta love guilt. 

He still never mentioned a word to me about getting married. He knows I know as our D25 let him have it about not having the guts to tell me himself. I was so tempted to ask him if his fiancé knew we were at dinner. 
It was a nice dinner, however I was a little saddened to see just how little he’s grown emotionally.  He’s stuck and I really wonder if he’ll ever have the courage to get out his MLC .
We did chat about a few emotional things and all went well with it. I did tell him that I didn’t  believe we’d chat once he’s married. I said it wouldn’t be appropriate :

I then received a text just the other day whereby he wanted me to know “ for the record he cares very much about me and what happens to me, he knows he’s hurt me and our D and lives with the consequences everyday even though he knows his actions show otherwise, he thinks I’m a wonderful person and the world is a better place with me in it. He also shared that my level of understanding and commitment are far more than he could ever imagine from himself but I can’t teach him that I can only show him of which I have.” He finally closed the text off with “he can’t ever imagine us not talking so he was having trouble accepting that” ( this from a vanisher remember....) and asked me to “not ever turn my phone off incase he called to say hi. “

They were kind words but in the end nothing more than words, still focused on himself and still getting married.
Clearly, he’s still cooking in the MLC oven ....hmm might have to check with Ready if he’s got any MLCer grill recipes because the cooking isn’t hot enough for exH. 

Hugs, Believer

[Anjae]

Hi Believer,

At least your xh is nicer than Mr J and has some awareness of the hurt and problems he caused. Mr J can still monster big time. By e-mail, we never see each other and haven't in over a decade. Aside by chance, in a social settting, early last year. I was with a friend, went over to Mr J that was djing, he gave a step back terrified. When he left he put an hand on my left shoulder and said "so, good night".

The e-mails are very rare and short. And end with a professional "Kind regards". 
 
Late last years Mr J and OW2, that, by then had been together for 10 years, seemed to have broken. Now they seem to be together again. Who knows what is going on with him. He is still deep in MLC lifestyle.

MLCers are funny. Yours is getting married to OW and has troubles accepting you may not want to chat with him once he marries.   

Yes, just words, still focussed on himself, and still getting married. Phew.

Some of them take forever to get through their crisis. And the heat is not enough to have them cooked. Maybe Ready does have some cooking recipes that can speed our MLCers cooking. 
Hugs,

A

[Believer]

Anjae,

Yes, I’m grateful my exH is pleasant enough. He wasn’t always this although never monster like Mr. J

If he had been I’d be like you backing away from the monster and letting him sour in his own MLC muck!

[Mortesbride]

Just attaching to see all the great advice you guys will have.

[Believer]

Hi Morte’s,

Lol aren’t you sweet!

I’m not sure how great my advice is as I was certainly a slower learner in all of this.
I honestly believed for the longest time I could help my H through this. I did everything an LBS shouldn’t have I begged, pleaded, wrapped myself into a pretzel. I blamed myself for the failure you name it I did it ... except ever speak to or acknowledge the OW. Whew proud of myself for that the other stuff not so much...
My H is a very stubborn, silent man. I was reading Barbie’s article about stonewalling - that’s my H as well.
It wasn’t until he finally divorced me in 2017 that I started to deeply and truly figure out me. Sure I had great periods of feeling pulled together but inside I was still struggling to “get it”. Once he had divorced me, lost my job just a few years from full pension retirement, and lost my home.... I hit my own kind of rock bottom - tired and exhausted of trying to talk logic into an illogical man. I was a complete mess.
Lots of therapy, quiet and self reflection time later I’m better. I still have tears, miss my H dearly and yep even hope the karma bus shows up. However I know that I’m certainly stronger than I was, and can even say I’m content on my own.
My H doesn’t appear to have grown much atleast on the outside. He’s still running and perhaps always will who knows.
I’m sad for him, myself and our D25 because we once had a wonderful family and life.

However,  if I can share anything it’s the following :

Yes, this is a script - Listen to those who have gone through it before you. You can’t speed it up, but I feel you can slow their progress. An LBS doesn’t have any influence over them regardless of how long you were married or how wonderful it was before.

It’s not about you - this is 100% about them and their issues. Sure there are your own opportunities for self improvement but they didn’t cause this or your marriage to disintegrate.

Get out of the way - they wreck havoc !! My H is the complete opposite now. He’s done things I never could have imagined .

Protect yourself financially and emotionally
Don’t let your guard down on this. My H was very good supporting us but heck did his entitlement ever surface at the time of the divorce...a time that I was pretty low and he adamantly expressed he “was going to get the best deal possible for him”

It’s a long ride !!!
....and it’s okay to change your mind perhaps even many times about what you want along the way.

Treat yourself with much kindness and love
I can’t stress this enough. I was too worried about helping, worrying and thinking about H that I caused my own “rock bottom”. Build your own life and love what you allow in it!

You will lose family and friends. However the ones that remain are “keepers ♥️“
Some of my friends feel I’m crazy to even think kindly of my H. His family although don’t agree with what he’s done, they also don’t have the courage to hold him accountable. Heck his brother still lets him live at his home and it’s been 10 years...but you can bet his brother grumbles about the fact that he’s there....family issues are a significant contributor to my h not really feeling the consequences. H’s mother is not at all pleased with what he’s done but to this day has never said anything to him for fear he’d stop talking to her. Clearly FOO issues here.

Anyhow Morte none of this is new advice. This has been the advice of many here and it’s very good advice. I was just slow to grasp it. So if I can offer anything it would be to pay attention to the advice here as soon as you step on board HS ♥️

Hugs,
Believer

[Anjae]

Believer,  early on, during the very confusing right after BD times, Mr J would be his normal self, monster, nice, in tears and all over again. It was crazy.

Then, monster in several ways, at times nice. Then it seemed monster took over. He got in contact by e-mail early-2016. He was civil. Most of the few e-mails (about two or three a year) are civil, but monster still shows.

I don't know how he manages to still be monster and angry.  We have lived over 300km from each other since May 2007 have seen each other in person four times since, twice by chance in social events, once in family court, and August 2007 he come here to the house.

[HeartTattoo]

However,  if I can share anything it’s the following :

Yes, this is a script

It’s not about you

Get out of the way

Protect yourself financially and emotionally

It’s a long ride !!!

Treat yourself with much kindness and love

You will lose family and friends. However the ones that remain are “keepers ♥️“
And perhaps you'll make wonderful new ones.

Believer,
I wrote a response to one of your other recent posts, but lost it messing around with it. The gist of it was that our MLCers sound much alike. And when we start thinking the OW is making our H's so happy (because they were "so unhappy in our M") remember a pointer from RCR--MLCers don't look for someone better than us; they come across & become attached to someone worse than themselves.

Anyhow, your summary is spot on. Any newbies following along, take notice. It's there in a nutshell.

Hugs,
HT

[Believer]

Anjae,

Ah yes the endless energy consumed in being angry. If only they would convert that energy into something good !!

Heartattoo,

Good point about the OW being worse than the MLCer ! It’s my understanding that my exh’s OW fits this suggestion perfectly....

The whole MLC is a sad and destructive process to experience.

[Anjae]

Ah yes the endless energy consumed in being angry. If only they would convert that energy into something good !!

If only. 

Externally, MrJ's OWs do not look worst than him. They look more together than him and took much better care of themselves than he did of himself. Of course there must be something not visible since they got together with a MLCer.

OW1 didn't last long in the open. He refused to leave his MLC life and she wanted to settle down, etc. OW2 is a knightess in shinning armour that decided to rescue the poor heartbroken MLCer. He and OW1 had broke, OW2 become is close friend and confident.

[in it]

I think anger gets a really bad negative rap.

I took all the anger energy I had and used it to detach, get a life and the most positive thing it gave me was determination. I mean white hot laser focused determination.


The determination to not give up, just realize I had enough. Enough lies, BS, games and abuse. Enough, enough, enough.

Not mad, not upset - just done.

[Treasur]

However,  if I can share anything it’s the following :

Yes, this is a script

It’s not about you

Get out of the way

Protect yourself financially and emotionally

It’s a long ride !!!

Treat yourself with much kindness and love

You will lose family and friends. However the ones that remain are “keepers ♥️“
And perhaps you'll make wonderful new ones.

Believer,
I wrote a response to one of your other recent posts, but lost it messing around with it. The gist of it was that our MLCers sound much alike. And when we start thinking the OW is making our H's so happy (because they were "so unhappy in our M") remember a pointer from RCR--MLCers don't look for someone better than us; they come across & become attached to someone worse than themselves.

Anyhow, your summary is spot on. Any newbies following along, take notice. It's there in a nutshell.

Hugs,
HT

This was a really, really good reminder for me today. Especially the first two points.
Kind of LBS 101.
Takes a while to really truly get it in your bones, but as HT says, just spot on.

[Anjae]

In It, anger can be used in a constructive and in a destructive way. MLCers use it in a destructive way.

[LearningIamOk]

From HT:

And when we start thinking the OW is making our H's so happy (because they were "so unhappy in our M") remember a pointer from RCR--MLCers don't look for someone better than us; they come across & become attached to someone worse than themselves.

HT, I have, within the last day, decided to stop calling xH's OW "Spin Wh*re", and replace it with "Saint OW". If it wasn't for her, I would still be married, walking on eggshells and mostly unhappy. If she IS truly worse than him, and she is despicable, what in heaven's name was I married to? He had to dig really deep to dredge her up.

I now have a drama free relationship with a man who actually talks to me and uses my name.

I can finally embrace the fact that MLC isn't about the LBS at all.

[in it]

I hear you Learning.  I'd like to give the exow a great big thank you also.

I no more have to deal with the sullen, dark, negative,  abusive, brooding boor of whatever that was. No more eggshells or what ever I did not being good enough.
Whatever I said either being not the thing to say or, when I wasn't talking something was wrong with me being so quiet.
No more being lied to by him and be played for some fool in his game. No more abuse.

 No more accounting for where I went, who I talked to, and what was said.  I was released from prison.

If it weren't for the pain I watched my children go through due to her utter stupidity and selfishness I might be able to to do just that.

[Shining Star]

In:  Your words helped me tonight.  Although he wasn't like that throughout the marriage, he was in the end.  Mean and nasty and full of lies.  I try to be grateful that I no longer am around all that negative energy and I no longer walk on eggshells.  Thanks for reminding me

[readytofixmyselffirst]

I think anger gets a really bad negative rap.

Absolutely. I used my anger to motivate me to move forward. The other alternative was to roll over and die. I exercised and focused on my work. During the divorce, I was always angry. I was a doormat before and suddenly I was raging bull. I gave up what I had to legally, but I wasn't going to give up the farm.

During the conference with her attorney, I played my best hand of poker ever. In fact, he left the call saying that this was his easiest conference ever and I was easy to work with. Why? Because I already knew what I was going to get and not get. I knew the laws and was ready to negotiate a fair deal.

Nice voice, but inside I was raging. Fighting. Yes, I was fighting for me and my family.

After the divorce, I wallowed for a bit. Dated online, met some interesting people. That was how I got introduced to Shaun T. His exercise program is intense but not hard on the knees. I took my anger and put in into my exercising. I began to transform my life. I passed my second part of my dissertation and began to collect data. Then I met my new love and we started dating.

I still was angry every time I sent the check, but the time passed. I started paying off bills. Got my daughter the daughter through college. Got engaged, bought a new home. Finished my doctoral. Rejoined the forum and got married.

Wow, what a journey and it all began and was fueled at first by anger, then determination and finished with love.

Yes, anger can be a useful emotion when it is focused towards getting you ass off the floor.

Ready

[in it]

Thank you so much for validating that Ready
Anger can be a motivator..that leads to determination.

Shining you are welcome, write it all down, everything you dealt with and read it as a reminder.

[LearningIamOk]

In It and Ready, I wasn't really angry until the divorce started and xH tried to get more than his fair share. Then I was raging too. I kept it civil when we were together and negotiating, but I wouldn't budge and did quite well.

I am in a lovely R with a great guy who never puts me down and has a genuine interest in my interests. What a breath of fresh air.

[lawprofessor]

Well just a bit of an update on my MLCer:

Tonight I received a tweet.  It was Genius's OW. 

Hmmm.  Ok.

She announced her engagement....

To her Other Man!!!

LMAO!

It seems she no longer could see Genius as her hero, her knight in shining armour.  She began seeing this guy as a friend in 2014.  2016 began an affair with him when Genius had spent through the $$$.  And she found out he was a bear to live with and impotent.  She said she had always heard it was me that was sexually disfunctional but now knows differently.  She said he began screaming at her for things like folding his clothes incorrectly and blaming her for his unhappiness and impotence. (Sound familiar to anyone?) This got so bad she began staying at the library late to study and going out with friends.  He became meaner, then more controlling.  He refused to let her go out or go out with her and her 20 something year old friends.  (Imagine that?) She began crying all the time and this guy, also 20 something, began to comfort her, and so began the affair. 

Genius tried to get happy again in his usual fashion, and bought a townhouse.  (Did the same, bought a house when we were splitting up to get happy).  It worked for a short time but she said he still wasn't happy for long. (Again, imagine that?) He began saying my name in his sleep, so she resumed her affair with the age appropriate guy.  She decided she wanted to get married and have kids and time was ticking.  Genius agreed but wouldn't buy a ring or help with plans.  And of course the impotence was a problem as to having children. When she passed her exams, he didn't congratulate her, just noted he had done better on his exams 30 years before and his exams were harder than hers.  He then began screaming at her about the weight he gained, his grey hair, and his assorted aches and pains, saying he'd given up everything for her and it wasn't worth it because she was just a spoiled ugly little brat that did nothing but take advantage of him when he was confused and not thinking right.  He got violent then throwing things and she ran from the house and to her OM's home.  She came back a couple days later and took the cat and her things, cleaning out the house.  And is now deliriously happy with her fiance.

Meanwhile Genius is a depressed wreck, telling everyone how he's abused and was taken advantage of by her.  Only this time he's getting no support because "their" friends are really her friends, a bunch of 20 something year olds. And she's posting all over social media about how great it is to have "a real man", one that can keep up with her and who is not ready for bed at 10:00 pm every night.

Well, that explains why he has been contacting me for the last several years wanting to come home. The magic of these two "old souls" had fizzled out.  "Old souls" is a reference to her one time saying she wasn't too young for him, that age didn't matter since she was sooo very mature because she had an old soul that was an exact duplicate of his.

And that my friends is the true meaning of a visit by the karma bus and poetic justice. 

What he did to me, was done to him, without me expending one bit of effort, or waiting for him to come home, or enabling his trip around the moon yet again, or cushioning his fall or enabling him.

Of course, this changes nothing.  I'm still done with him. 

My BD was 8 years ago this month.  Another amusing and ironic coincidence.  8 years to the month.  For some reason that strikes me as the end if a life cycle of some sort.  I know some of you say 7 year cycles, but for me it seems like 8 is the magic number as I spend the final year of the 8 gearing up for the new cycle.   But absolutely 7 years for him as they split up a year ago this month. 

Ok, I shouldn't laugh.  It might be mean in some people's eyes.  But it seems like poetic justice to me.  And that's good enough for tonight. 

Best to you all,
Lp

[lawprofessor]

Correction: it's 7 years for me.  I think so little about this that I forgot what year my BD occurred! 

So 7 year cycles it is!  2012-2019 April.  6 for him. That donkey always was an over achiever. 

Funny how time changes things.  That's a date I thought at one time I would never forget. 

I'm a big supporter of the valuable use of anger as a resource.  I fought from day 1 using anger to focus on myself and propel myself forward.  I find too many are uncomfortable with the natural human emotion of anger and fail to use it as a resource, more similar to MLC Wallowers in my eyes.  That's why I thank God I was given a high energy MLCer, one who vanished for several years and who had no problem expressing anger.  He just used anger incorrectly whereas I used it to create a new and better life for myself.   We each get the things we need in this.  It's our challenge to use those tools to the best of our abilities. 

Lp

[Treasur]

1. Wow...that must have been a long tweet/text
2. How weird that she would contact you...and share such personal info.....ow obviously continue to be weird even when they stop being the ow
3. Sounds like their perfect happy lasted, what, about 4-5 years...as you say, imagine that. My L said to me that in her experience, xh's speedy marriage was what her trade call repeat business, that she'd give it 5 years max but by then I wouldn't care but she had seen it over and over again with cases like mine.
4. Not mean at all...simply admiring the elegant creativity of the karma bus...hope he likes his townhouse though
5. Only bad point is I imagine he will try to contact you again/more but sure you will deal with that just fine

Lovely update, LP, if spookily textbook
As you say, fine poetic justice that you can enjoy from afar as it makes no difference to your life now at all.

[Ausgatorgirl]

Fabulous, amusing update LP.

Unlike you, I have not been through anger (18 months since BD). I went straight into acceptance. Maybe that’s because I have a vanisher and 6 months after BD I travelled solo for 8 months. I think the time alone allowed me to accept and focus on moving on. Who knows, we are all different. My therapist (only went once) asked if I’d been through anger. I said “no, just disappointment in the man I knew”. Still how I feel.

Thanks again,

Aus

[Songanddance]

Firstly LP - what an amazing and totally unsurprising conclusion (of sorts) to your MLCer and his time with OW.

It is really important that all newbies read this story to understand that the crisis is not about them but about the MLCer and the OW will and does frequently fizzle out.

I am not surprised either that she contacted you. Mine did several times at the start of the crisis especially in a letter telling me how she and H were perfectly matched and how I had held him back yadda yadda. This is the problem with OWs generally - they have few boundaries.  The fact that she is posting all over media about her new fiance is no surprise either - wonder how long that is going to last.......

It is also abundantly clear that your XH is still in deep crisis and even though I totally agree with the 7 year cycle (happens in education and, as I chart my own life, there are 7 yr cycles there too) - maybe your XH will never come out of his crisis and is still riddled with guilt. His problem!

I fought from day 1 using anger to focus on myself and propel myself forward.  I find too many are uncomfortable with the natural human emotion of anger and fail to use it as a resource

This!   
There are several LBSers on here who do exactly what you suggest and fail to use anger as a natural forward healthy propelling emotion.  Many people use anger as a "comfort zone" because it helps keep them stuck. Many hold onto their anger for too long and become bitter (which is just anger a few shades lighter) or they constantly seek reasons why they should stay angry or worse continue to provoke anger in others to perpetuate their own anger - the anger of justification.

Anger has to be expressed of course - venting must happen and angry throughts need to be processed and then let go.

Anger can a force for good because it can motivate people into action but that action must always be of  healthy and positive benefit to self and others and not create/instill /provoke negative action.

[Treasur]

Interesting article on anger here https://lifesupportscounselling.com.au/10-types-anger-whats-anger-style/. Like Aus, in my situation with other life events, I found anger a bit out of reach for a long time and my feelings about anger are complicated. Different strokes etc. I can see how anger can be motivational; it just doesn't work that way for me or I couldn't access it. Pride? Yup. Distaste? Yup. FFS Exasperation? Yup. Or that 'this is just too stupid for me to care about or engage in?' Yup. All of those work pretty well. Ironically, the gift of PTSD was that by the time I felt angry, I no longer cared much about what happened or was happening to my xh.

[Trustandlove]

Interesting update, lp, thank you.

And that is a good article on anger; I'm one who also took a long time to feel any anger, the fact that I didn't puzzled me for a long time as well.   But that also meant that I didn't use it destructively, at least I hope so.  I likely internalised it for longer than necessary, though. 

Learning to articulate anger constructively, which I started to call "speaking my truth", has been and continues to be one of the great lessons of this mess for me; I hope I've been teaching my children that as well.  I have found it invaluable in dealing with many life situations aside from my MLCer as well. 

It's an ongoing process, I find...

[Gettingbackup]

Oh LP what an update. I adore it, I want to compile an edition of Soothing Bedtime Stories for the LBS and that would be the first chapter. Absolutely delicious to witness, even from afar.

[in it]

I'm going to hell anyway..so LMAO!!
Yes some of what you wrote LP sounds totally familiar.
And that you didn't have to do a thing and all this happened just proves that eventually it will catch up to them.
All anybody needs to do is get right out of the way.

[Treasur]

How is your friend J doing, LP?

[Mortesbride]

Wow...it is funny reading the story. 

I don't know how many times I have said to Beast, and written in my forums...that I just know something similar like that is going to be his ending.

I think he is going to run off and try to be ''free'' getting a redo with his 20 year old GF...and when she starts to pressure him for things all women want at that age (kids, marriage, a house) he is going to freak out and run. That or she will finally see the Jekyll AND the HIDE, then she is going to bolt. Either way I see him entering an even worse depression than he has ever faced before, and if I am honest I worry he would commit suicide before trying to fix anything. I guess deep down I know he is an... emotionally??.. weak guy, that will have an extremely tough time coming back out. I am 90% sure that he will try to come back if he doesn't take the shortcut out, but I am not sure I will still be here. I am not known for my patience.

Anyway, I am super surprised at how much detail she offered up! Imagine contacting your current partner's ex to dish all the dirt. Although it is helpful to you to know, it really does show her true colours as a person. I can't imagine her current relationship is going to go much better to be fair, she just traded in the old knight for the young page...

[Airmid]

Congratulations to the Karma Fairy - she finally found her way to Genius.
For Newbie readers - you may think the take away from this is that the MLCer finally got just deserts.
While that may be true - the real take away is to look at LP's path.

LP took care of herself legally - and got a divorce. 
This enabled her to secure her finances - and be assured of her income/savings etc.
Good thing of course because her MLCer was predictable and burned though all his money.

LP focused on getting her own life in order - moving forward with her career - her social life - her interests.
Rarely if al all did she look over her shoulder to see where her MLCer was - because what was important was her own life - not the life of her Genius.

So the Karma bus arrived - and LP is the "winner".
She didn't sit still - waiting for the MLCer.
She took up the reins and steered her life into a happy and successful place.
Her choice is to not allow this broken MLCer back - and if anyone reads her history of how Genius behaved at BD - you will see she is 100% right in her decision.
He was violent and abusive.

I love this moment for you LP - because you know I love "justice".
And for me - this is a story of justice.
Genius blew up his whole life for this little girl - and now he got a dose of his own medicine.

Newbies - don't fixate on your MLCer - fixate on making your own lives the best they can be.
Then no matter what happens - you win.

[in it]

Airmid great post!
You focus on yourself your own life and don't look back. Especially after dealing with an abusive violent relationship.

However it's really much the same advice in a relationship where it's been devastated  by infidelity. Focus on you and heal. Don't be a doormat or an enabler.

I like this phrase:

The reason the windshield is bigger than the rear view mirror is because it's more important to see where you are are going than where you have been.

[Anjae]

What an update, LP. Thank you.

I recalled your MLCers had been trying to come back home for several years. 

Using the LBS anger, for those who have it since not all do, in a moving forward/doing constructive things is positive. Using our anger the way MLCers do, not so much.

However, at a point, anger has to go and give way to other emotions.

Another who wants to know how is J doing.

[lawprofessor]

Why thank you ladies for following along and commenting!

Yes, it was quite the evening last night.  The (OW) Little Girl as I always referred to her as, sent a short tweet announcing her engagement.  She followed up with a long couple of emails dishing the dirt once she had confirmation I had read the tweet. 

In past history, I was never angry with the Little Girl. 
-She owed me no loyalty
-She took no vows with me
-I was never jealous of her.  She really and truly was a child in appearance and emotional maturity, right down to her pig tails and Hello Kitty backpack.  She was about 22 if I recall correctly when they got together. 
-She was no threat to me in any way.  She tried hard to emulate me in many ways down to my likes and Pinterest boards which was a bit creepy.  Career-wise she was a clerk at Forever 16.  Physically-no curves, no hips, no figure, definitely not a gym rat like me.  She is dark Italian and I'm light Russian although for a period she did go blonde and get blue contacts, both of which were awful on her, like clown makeup.  Money-no contest.  Sports-no contest.  I outweighed her, muscle, curves and height to her skin and bones waif look. She spent about 5 years of her life and $25,000 going to school to learn to speak Russian at intermediate proficiency whereas I already spoke it naturally.  On and on.
-She was always a drama queen threatening suicide dozens of times when she didn't get her way, where as I told her after the divorce that that wasn't necessary as Id taken everything in the divorce except his Fruit of the Looms and here those were-handing a laundry basket to her, that he had nothing left I wanted, that someday she'd find out she got a booby prize and did me a favor.
-Simply they had nothing in common and yet everything in common.  The same weaknesses, insecurities, fears, depression, mental weakness, Foo issues, and immaturity. They became one broken mess of a person until she changed some and grew up some.

He craved sameness.  He got it.  In spades.

It was him I was angry with. 
-He chose to betray me.
-He broke his vows
-He chose to treat me poorly.
No one held a gun to his head.  He was not insane.  He made choices.

Yes, Little Girl contacted me in the beginning, and once even threatened to "beat me up" for being mean to Genius.  That was a one off because she finally saw a picture of me and I gave her my address to come see how that worked out for her.  She declined.

Prior to this, the last comment I made to her was, "I don't want the Midlife Crisis Old Trainwreck and wouldn't take him back if he came to my home sporting a solid gold Pen!$ so quit bothering me with your teenage drama. 

I didn't hear more until last night, when she said everything i forecast had come true. She said she contacted me to sort of begin her new marriage with a clean karmic slate.  I said, thanks for the update.  I didn't wish her well or wish her poorly.  As always she is just an immature and irrelevant little girl.

So no I wasn't surprised in the wide sense that she contacted me or that she plastered this all around social media.  And yet I was surprised in a sense when I got the tweet.  But, surprised at the outcome? Not at all.  Like much of the rest of this, it's just stereotypical, prosaic even.  But I still find it humorous...👿

Lp

[lawprofessor]

As to J,

Well, karma just keeps slapping the crap out of the big old Galapagos turtle.  He is progressing nicely as always but slowly.  He says karma just keeps smacking him because he has a lot to make up for.  He's likely correct.

Last July at the ripe old age of 52 he had a hip replaced.  Years of hard living, hard partying, and hard drinking combined with a physically demanding job and osteoarthritis made his hip on the left collapse.  He fought back and was doing great in rehab and paying off those bills.  His ex offered to let him stay with her so she could nurse him but he declined saying he would never walk again if he did that because she would smother him in care and enable him to just sit and rot. 

Then he got on his feet and back to work but karma hadn't forgotten his address.  He was being a bit cocky and arrogant, prideful about his recovery, and bam! Lady Karma zapped his other hip.  This summer he will have that one replaced. 

We still spend some evenings talking about MLC when the mood strikes him.  A few weeks ago, we had a great discussion.  I asked him if there was any way any person could have said or did anything that would have stopped him in his tracks.  Quickly and firmly he said No, no one, no way.  It had to happen.  I asked did he think it was necessary-absolutely.  That he had learned although almost too late, that family was more important than money, that he had no idea what it meant to be a man correctly before this, that he wished he had my father for a roll model earlier, that he was sorry but ex and he would never be together again.

He admitted to having thought of his ex and the kids a lot, maybe even daily while he was in Replay but he just ran from those thoughts with more activity.  That he knew Ex would take care of them.  He just knew. 

He said he ran from the guilt of not being there.  Until one day when he felt driven like a migrating bird to return home.  He said he had been scared to return but never felt like he had another choice but to return.  And so he did within 2 days of deciding, just as quickly as he left when he ran.

I asked him why it was necessary to just burn it all down, his life and all he accomplished.  He said it was absolutely necessary at the time, to begin again, to start over.  Yet he couldn't do that with ex clinging to his coattails, holding him back.  The more she clung, the more she assured him she would be there for him, that he could return home, the more necessary it became to cut all ties and burn down entirely his old life.  Why?  Because he could never go back to being that man that he was while married to ex.  He wanted to make sure of that, that there was no way back to being that man.  Which is different than going back to ex.  He held that possibility open for years until he was sure she was still the same, no growth or changes, and still wanted the old him back.  Then he gave up and walked away from that idea.

However, he now is worried about being off work again because Ex counts on the back child support he gives her weekly, that he wants to make sure she's taken care of as this is her only cash income.  He said this is the only way he can help take care of her, short of going back to her which he will never do. 

After this hip surgery and recovery he plans to make some career changes and life changes as he's sure that job will kill him, and it likely will as it's toxic and dangerous.  The last guy before him died a terrible death riddled with odd unusual cancers.  J has decided enough is enough as to punishing himself.  He's paid his penance. 

He still lives with me in the West wing of my house, he and his cats.  Some days he is very happy and some days he is simply content to appreciate the simple things.  He would say he is at peace.

Lp

[lawprofessor]

Hey there Anjae,

Yes, my ex has wanted to come home for some time now.  And now I know why.  He knew things were going badly and wanted a safe plan b to run to. I would never accept being plan b for anyone.  He wouldn't have chosen me for me, but because he had failed at all else and had no where safe to run to.  I won't be an enabler, much less a toxic enabler that settles for a trainwreck.

No way.

Even if I wanted him back, he wasn't done and would have just run again after he got reassured he was welcome and loved.

_-------_-------------------------

I'd hope anyone who reads this would take their eyes off their MLCer, forget all the mental masturbations as to the whys and how's, focus squarely and only on themselves and their children, and make their lives beautiful and however they define successful. Once one has a basic understanding of MLC, just look forward and move forward. The rest will take care of itself.  Stop playing kids games.  Stop wallowing.  Stop wasting time.  Stop wasting energy.  Face your demons and move forward.  Grow up and find your calling in life. 

--------------------------------

Anger-those that use anger incorrectly have some growing up to do, nearly as much as their MLCer.  Just as those that are conflict avoidant have some maturing and growth opportunities as well.  2 sides of the same coin.  We can treat this MLC experience as a growth opportunity or the worst thing to ever happen to us.  High energy or wallow.  Our choice in how to respond.  At least we get a choice in that aspect. Focus on ourselves or focus on the MLCer.  Achieve or wallow. 

The pain lessens with each step forward. Our choice. 

Lp

[in it]

Now Lp

If you take him back you know what will happen. There may be a slight honeymoon lovey dovey period and then his abuse would start all over again and this time the end of that may not be a very good conclusion for you.

Each time they are given another chance the abuse gets worse. Could you really emotionally and spiritually afford to deal with him again?

This kind of man is never baked, done, healed, cured whatever his problem is. He will carry the abusive behavior over into every relationship he ever has.
They are cowards at their core.

[Anjae]

Thank you for the update on J. Hope he manages to change job.

Being someone's plan b is not a good thing. Some MLCers return/want to return for the right reasons, others not so.

Chosing us not for us, but because their MLC life turned into a mess? No, thank you.

Agree, even if we may want the MLCer back, if they are not ready to return, they will run again.

Lets see if, at some point, a double decker karma bus finds its way to Mr J. Not because I want to reconcile, more for him.

[lawprofessor]

Now Lp

If you take him back you know what will happen. There may be a slight honeymoon lovey dovey period and then his abuse would start all over again and this time the end of that may not be a very good conclusion for you.

Each time they are given another chance the abuse gets worse. Could you really emotionally and spiritually afford to deal with him again?

This kind of man is never baked, done, healed, cured whatever his problem is. He will carry the abusive behavior over into every relationship he ever has.
They are cowards at their core.

What?
Did I type something wrong and suggest I'd take him back?

I know the screen is screwy with a glitch, and I'm typing on my phone without my glasses on but I don't think I even suggested I'd take him back anywhere. 

Lp

[in it]

No you didn't.
But if your thinking if you did he would just run again.
I don't think that's what might happen..
Yes there are some glitch's on the site.
I know you are a very smart strong woman who wouldn't ever let a coward abuse her again.

[Treasur]

Sorry to hear about J's hip surgeries but perhaps it is good if it pushes him to find a different job. And glad to hear too that he has found some peace. I hope his wife and kids have found some too.

[Mortesbride]

In past history, I was never angry with the Little Girl.
-She owed me no loyalty
-She took no vows with me
-I was never jealous of her.  She really and truly was a child in appearance and emotional maturity, right down to her pig tails and Hello Kitty backpack.  She was about 22 if I recall correctly when they got together.   -same mine is very similar. 22...obsessed with Disney Princesses 
-She was no threat to me in any way. 
-She was always a drama queen .. that someday she'd find out she got a booby prize and did me a favor. Oh yes I politely said something similar in the 1 conversation on the phone I had with her.
-Simply they had nothing in common and yet everything in common.  The same weaknesses, insecurities, fears, depression, mental weakness, Foo issues, and immaturity. They became one broken mess of a person until she changed some and grew up some. I think some of the appeal is they are weaker more maliable women too...easier to control and feel superior to. Or so mine has said in not so many words.

He craved sameness.  He got it.  In spades.

Yes, Little Girl contacted me in the beginning, and once even threatened to "beat me up" for being mean to Genius.  That was a one off because she finally saw a picture of me and I gave her my address to come see how that worked out for her.  She declined. Oh my god you are my soul sister! This is literally something I would do. I never went after her (though I wanted to at the start) but I know..even now...if she showed up to my house looking for trouble I would mop the floor with her.

Prior to this, the last comment I made to her was, "I don't want the Midlife Crisis Old Trainwreck and wouldn't take him back if he came to my home sporting a solid gold Pen!$ so quit bothering me with your teenage drama. -Brilliant 

I didn't hear more until last night, when she said everything i forecast had come true. She said she contacted me to sort of begin her new marriage with a clean karmic slate.  I said, thanks for the update.  I didn't wish her well or wish her poorly.  As always she is just an immature and irrelevant little girl. -Guilt still eating her. Good.

Well, karma just keeps slapping the crap out of the big old Galapagos turtle.  He is progressing nicely as always but slowly.  He says karma just keeps smacking him because he has a lot to make up for.  He's likely correct. -Almost makes you feel sorry for them. Almost but not quiet.


- That he had learned although almost too late, that family was more important than money, that he had no idea what it meant to be a man correctly before this. -I think this is the riddle for a lot of them. Learning how to grow up, and what is really important in life. So many places I have seen this play out, not just in MLC. I count myself grateful that I can see that family is everything. I am glad he at least realises this now.

He admitted to having thought of his ex and the kids a lot, maybe even daily while he was in Replay but he just ran from those thoughts with more activity.  That he knew Ex would take care of them.  He just knew.  -They all emulate a good gingerbread man don't they lol.

He said he ran from the guilt of not being there.  Until one day when he felt driven like a migrating bird to return home.  He said he had been scared to return but never felt like he had another choice but to return.  And so he did within 2 days of deciding, just as quickly as he left when he ran. I asked him why it was necessary to just burn it all down, his life and all he accomplished.  He said it was absolutely necessary at the time, to begin again, to start over.  Yet he couldn't do that with ex clinging to his coattails, holding him back.  The more she clung, the more she assured him she would be there for him, that he could return home, the more necessary it became to cut all ties and burn down entirely his old life.  Why?  Because he could never go back to being that man that he was while married to ex.  He wanted to make sure of that, that there was no way back to being that man.  Which is different than going back to ex.  He held that possibility open for years until he was sure she was still the same, no growth or changes, and still wanted the old him back.  Then he gave up and walked away from that idea. I wonder if things would have played out differently if his LBS had done the work and sorted herself out.

Even if I wanted him back, he wasn't done and would have just run again after he got reassured he was welcome and loved. -Mentally noted. I think this may be part of why I was freaking out a bit at the thought of Beast constantly moving closer...Thanks.

We can treat this MLC experience as a growth opportunity or the worst thing to ever happen to us.  High energy or wallow.  Our choice in how to respond.  At least we get a choice in that aspect. Focus on ourselves or focus on the MLCer.  Achieve or wallow. -I agree with this 100 percent. Not just with MLC but every pile of poo flung at us through life. The principle is always applicable.

Great posts!

[Trustandlove]

Lp, I'm curious -- What was it about the man he was whilst married that he didn't like?  I hear that he wanted to make sure he was never that man again, what did he want to be?   What does he mean by "the guilt of not being there"?

Do you know his ex and children?  Do you agree with his assessment?  Does he want to be a father?

I ask, as ever, partly just out of curiosity and of course partly thinking about my own situation; my H definitely didn't want to be who he was whilst with me, but has never said who or what he DOES want to be, I do of course understand that this is immaterial to my self, but it does make a difference to our children. 

In my own case I tried to ask how he wanted to be a parent, what he wanted from me in that regard, I never got an answer, I did finally understand about not even asking the question.  I've done my best to be the best person I can be for my self and our children, regardless of what he is or isn't doing. 

And I recognise that my own situation is different, these were just a few things that jumped out at me. 

[UrsaMajor]

Well well well...

If THAT isn't a case of  the karma bus showing up for a FULL stop......

And as Mort noted, LG has a BIG heaping plate of guilt steaming on the table in front of her... Clean off her karmic slate? Yeah, good luck with that one toots.....

Focus on the prize and that is the person in the mirror, not some deranged Mid-Lifer doing stupid stuff..... By doing one's own work, living life like they are not coming back, and getting one's own doo-doo into one sock, the LBS is the one that takes back their own power and uses it for their own benefit....

Why is the rear view mirror in the car smaller than the windshield? Because you are NOT DRIVING BACKWARDS!

[Bewildered survivor]

Thanks LP fr sharing the karma bus sighting.  It came at the right time for me when I was despairing about the fact that there is currently no sighting of any karma bus and MLCer and OW seem to just keep landing on their feet. 

Just found out H is now paying for her house to be extended.  They have the drawings and are planning to start the work this summer and was quite happy to share this with the girls (knowing it would get back to me).  Just before BD we had been planning an extension (H’s idea) with builders booked and drawings done.  I had been planning it for quite some time.  From what I hear all MY ideas are now being incorporated into THEIR extension. OW is very excited.   

I know its early days and hopefully one day I can share a similar up date....probably when he’s spent all his money on OW with extension done and she is done with him 

I'd hope anyone who reads this would take their eyes off their MLCer, forget all the mental masturbations as to the whys and how's, focus squarely and only on themselves and their children, and make their lives beautiful and however they define successful. Once one has a basic understanding of MLC, just look forward and move forward. The rest will take care of itself.  Stop playing kids games.  Stop wallowing.  Stop wasting time.  Stop wasting energy.  Face your demons and move forward.  Grow up and find your calling in life. 

I do need to take this advice and keep looking forward. Ive started packing the house up and this weekend without the kids I came across some old cards from H- declaring his undying love for me.  Had a good healthy cry.  But today after hearing all this from girls I just feel silly reading old cards and wasting my tears all while H is happy and excited planning new extension and future with OW.  Cant wait for a sighting of that karma bus. 

[Mortesbride]

Bewildered I can hear their argument already..

''Why did you have to give me an extension that your ex wife wanted! It isn't good enough! You should have asked what I wanted!''

Mlcer confused and...bewildered  .... standing there mouth agape as his pockets are dusty....

[LearningIamOk]

Quite the update,LP, but I am confused. I thought he tried to kill you, or threatened to kill you. How is he even able to contact you?

[Treasur]

Bewildered I can hear their argument already..

''Why did you have to give me an extension that your ex wife wanted! It isn't good enough! You should have asked what I wanted!''

Mlcer confused and...bewildered  .... standing there mouth agape as his pockets are dusty....

Or more likely....lots of stress and mess, angry MLCer argues with builders, plans go way over budget....ff a few years, ow refuses to repay the money he spent on HER house when R hits the buffers,(no legal paperwork bc y'know 'their love is real' etc)  cue more L's and lots of mr sadz.....
Meanwhile BS is now in charge of her own life, no crazy in it, enjoying a peaceful time with her kids and too busy with good humans to care much while xh bleats about poverty.....but BS comes back to update about the karma bus 

[stillbaffled]

LP - thanks for dropping by and posting an update. 

Airmid - so good to see you also drop by.   

[limitless]

This is the third place that I have added this post....sorry for the many duplications.

Anjae asked that I add this to the Old Timer's thread...and yes...I am an old timer.

I will share with you portions of a very long email that I recently received from my Ex recently....almost 9 years post BD.

To briefly explain how this email came about - it stemmed from another email (from Ex to me) - where he contacted me to tell me how well our adult kids were doing and how it all was due to me.  He went on to tell me was a great Mother I was and how I had been the positive role model they needed.  He ended the email by thanking me "for being there."

I found myself more than bit annoyed at receiving this email.  It seemed to me (now that my Ex is now firmly involved with the OW1 (back from 2009 - after OW2, OW3....)) and now, it seemed to me, he was ready for us to be on more friendly terms.  This bothered me...as I in no way wish to give my Ex the slightest idea that I think what he had done was "ok" in any sense or that we could now be friends. 

So, after much thought, I responded.  I thanked him for the email and his compliments on my parenting, I went on to say that I truly needed something else from him.  I reminded him of the devastation that he had caused to me and our family back at BD.  I told him that I needed him to own what he had done and apologize.

I sent this email with zero expectations. 

The response that I received was beyond my expectations. 

"Limitless - …... it was my responsibility to make sure you had the truth from me. Yes I do owe you that. I have learned a lot about myself over the past years. Where I went wrong, where parts of me got lost, my recovery, my choices and my lack of being total honest and up front. One thing first and foremost, as much as you were and still are, a great mother to the kids, you were also just as great as a wife.

But looking back over the years, I never gave you enough space to be that. I felt I cut you short of being who you wanted to be with me. ... There is a lot of things in a relationship to know, learn and grow within. Truthfully, I had no clue.

How and what I did, the chain of events, and my choices, were not in the best interest for you. I am truly sorry. I apologize.

...To put that on a level to understand, I basically was frazzled, burnt, lost. I basically lost myself,   Being who I become at that point, I could only implode. To come out and talk how I felt, thought or explain where I was, I only felt I had myself. I left you in the dark, I’m sorry. 

In 2009 I tried sort out what I was going through. I tried to figure what I needed to do to sort us out, figure out how to be better at being a husband. Truly and honestly help us. I took my focus on us, be more at what you wanted from me and our marriage. Also at the same time figure out how to put me back with some normalcy.

You acknowledged my changes, and felt it made a difference. What hurt me was you felt I needed to change, and the problems were everything I brought on. You never acknowledged you could use some help/change. You were okay, and I was the problem.

... I was falling apart, and I was at fault, so I was on my own. I’m sorry I didn’t sit you down and tell you I was heading to a dead end. I felt, it wouldn’t matter, I was always wrong and you were always right. I’m not here to blame you, or say you were the base of my problems, I am the base of my problems and habits. I put you through decades of hell, I gave you every reason to lack trust in me, and baffle you with BS to cover my inner self. In the end, I didn’t learn from my mistakes. I still have my problems within, my demons and comfort zone.

...I love our kids and I understand I lost a lot of respect from them. I can only truly be open and honest with them, I learned it doesn’t work any other way.

...I was lost and someone heard me  cry, and offered to help. Yes we (OW) kept in touch my emails for years. I’m sorry and apologize for my actions after I left. For what ever reason, I just wanted to have people like me. I had no friends anymore, they all left. What friends I did have, were all yours, mostly work. It seems I could only have friends you would approve of.

What I did on our 30th anniversary (BD), was another one of my $h!tety ways of treating you. Revenge for not taking me seriously, or what ever, I felt I didn’t matter. I was always wrong. I apologize big time.  It was all wrong, very wrong. I’m sorry!

I tried to find some peace within myself. That took years to find, and see my ways of wrong doing.

One thing, I truly loved you, through and through,

I have no regrets in meeting you, getting married and having 3 great kids.

I do regret my selfishness, I regret the lies and hiding. I regret I didn't allow you to be Limitless. 

The lack of respect to our marriage after I left wasn’t right, I apologize, self centered, selfishness and stupid. I have always wanted to write you and explain, I just never did, but I do keep the thoughts I had, the feeling I went through forever, I can’t forget, and I don’t forgive myself for what I did to you and the family. I will never blame or draw excuses that you were the problem. I can’t put my problems out there and blame you. I own up to my faults and that’s what I live with. I still bury feelings, I am still unable to share at times, and do my best, not to lie to myself.

I never had intentions to go part way and leave, I wanted the long haul for us. I loved you and in ways I always will.

I only wanted the best to you  and I could not do that. I failed as a husband for many years and left you with a bitter taste. I want you to be happy and allow yourself to be Limitless, be that person who I met many years ago, with a bright smile and a great heart. You still have it, be happy, you deserve it more than you know"

[Songanddance]

This is interesting Limitless.

How did you feel once you had read that? 

My gut feeling is that whilst he is saying all the right words how authentic is the emotion behind it?  Call me suspicious or jaded or cynical.
I read that whilst he knows he can't blame you for his actions he still feels as though "fate made him do it" or " it was all beyond his control" and whilst he knows that what he did was wrong he still buries his feelings and is possibly still running.  OW is still the sticking plaster.

I find his comments about having no regrets about marrying you and being in it for the long haul a little annoying or even patronising.   

[Anjae]

My gut feeling is that whilst he is saying all the right words how authentic is the emotion behind it?  Call me suspicious or jaded or cynical.

I am worst than you.  This was my reply on the other thread: "I'm thinking what I would do if Mr J would sent me a similar e-mail. Probably: yeah, mate, whatever, thanks. Are you ready to sign me a large check? No? Sorry, your words mean nothing. When you're ready to truly make ameds, let me know.

Why would my reply be so meh? Because I no longer need a a heartfelt response. I need/want actions/amends, not words."

For me, it is literally, show me the money. Words? Lovely, but they don't mean a thing unless solid, consistent words and the amends each LBS needs exist.

I find his comments about having no regrets about marrying you and being in it for the long haul a little annoying or even patronising.

I saw those more like him saying when we married Limitless he thought it was for the long haul, I think he meant it and was not being patronising. When we married our MLCer both we and the MLCer thought it was for the long haul. Having no regrets marrying the LBS is relevant because at BD they are "it is your fault. I have not loved you for X years. I regret marrying you/marry you was the biggest mistake of my life". I think he was being genuine there.

[serenity]

Hi Limitless

I found that quite hard to read and rather emotional. Some of it was identical to things my H has said to me!

It does sound like he’s still running away though and still avoiding looking at himself! So has a different life so he can pretend to be that new person!

Thank you for sharing

X

[Songanddance]

I saw those more like him saying when we married Limitless he thought it was for the long haul, I think he meant it and was not being patronising. When we married our MLCer both we and the MLCer thought it was for the long haul. Having no regrets marrying the LBS is relevant because at BD they are "it is your fault. I have not loved you for X years. I regret marrying you/marry you was the biggest mistake of my life". I think he was being genuine there.

Anjae - I have no doubt that he didn't regret marrying her and that he was in it for the long haul. But why say it now? It's empty and it's pre-supposition on his part that that is what Limitless needed to hear as if it would make it "easier" for her - so still assuaging his guilt.

It's a bit like saying to somebody whose car you have just crashed into "Sorry that this has happened - When I set off today I had no intention of crashing into your car and, had I known that I was going to crash into you, I would have tried to avoid it but I couldn't it just happened. I hope that you understand why I did though"

[in it]

Anjae
Love the part about the check

[Treasur]

To be fair to limitless' h, she did ask him to own what he did and apologise.
And it's important that we don't apply our own filters too sharply bc it isn't our situation.
I saw plenty of apologies. I saw him owning some things at least in the sense of no longer blaming limitless. I saw him being a bit third party 'this happened' as opposed to 'I did' in other bits. I saw him trying no matter how clumsily to understand some of how limitless might have felt and to reassure her that she was loved, that he did not mean some of the things he has probably said and that - although he felt differently in the past - he wants her to know it was not her fault. Are some bits slightly patronising like the 'I want you to be happy' and 'I stopped you being you' bits? Maybe. A few me-me bits? Maybe. But I don't get the sense he is trying to rug sweep much or manipulate her into forgiveness. Only limitless knows how true or valuable it all feels to hear.

Overall, does he feel entirely cooked? Maybe not. Or reconcile? Maybe not...I suspect writing this was hard though and probably made him a bit thinky so who knows what will unfold. Does he want to make amends? Maybe not or maybe he just thinks it is impossible to do. And let's face it, some of this stuff is pretty hard to make amends for after so long isn't it?

Imho, limitless is the best judge of how honest or useful the email is bc she knows her h and her situation best. And she will hopefully take her time and decide what she wants to take from it.

[Thunder]

After reading his response, I have to agree with treasur on this.

I found the letter from her H to be pretty telling, as to where he found himself at that time, and regrets it.  I don't see much negative in the letter.  He explained a lot of how he was feeling then and how he sees the err of his ways, that hurt her and the family.  He apologized for it all.  There was no sweeping it under the rug.  First step?

Limitless, how did you honestly feel after reading that?  Did it help you at all?
Of course there are no actions from him to make up for what he did, it just shows he FEELS remorse.
Do you feel that way too?

It doesn't sound like he wants to reconcile...and maybe it is to ease his conscience, but maybe right now that's all he can give you, an explanation and an apology.  Own what he did.

In my own personal opinion, of it were my H writing this, it would make me feel good he took the time to explain things, even the part about truly loving you (at least you know you were right he did), but also sad that it doesn't seem he wants to reconcile.  At least not yet.

Is that how you feel, Limitless?

Does that mean you have to be friends with him?  Of course not.

[Airmid]

I told him that I needed him to own what he had done and apologize.

Limitless - I am glad you got that letter. 
Do I think the letter is sincere?  Yes.

Some have commented that this letter would not be enough for them - or doubted the sincerity.
Is it everything anyone could ever hope for - probably not if what is hoped for is reparations or reconciliation.
It is complete in terms of what Limitless asked for - he owned what he has done and he apologized.

I personally have often wished for and thought about what I would want in an apology letter.
In the beginning  years, I would have wanted an apology and a return to our marriage.
Then I would have wanted an apology and an opportunity to tell my xH how much he hurt me.
An opportunity I didn't get because he became a practical vanisher.

I think had I gotten an apology somewhere in the first few years - it would have helped me heal better.
But now - at this point - I am not sure it would do anything.
I have done my healing on my own - without contact from my xH.
And a couple of years ago I realized - there was nothing that my xH could say that would take away the pain I experienced right after BD. 
I am pretty much healed from the trauma and pain of BD, and my marriage suddenly dissolving.
I have examined myself and changed since BD, becoming a stronger and more independent person.
I am no longer grieving - no salve is needed at this time.
So for me (and I am only talking about my own personal reaction) at this point in time an apology might be "nice"  but not necessary. 

Limitless wanted the apology and to know her xH accepted his responsibility in the breakup of the marriage.
And I do understand needing that.  Fortunately she got a reply that exceeded her expectations.
I hope this letter she received will bring some healing and closure to a painful period in her life.

[limitless]

Hi Limitless

I found that quite hard to read and rather emotional. Some of it was identical to things my H has said to me!

It does sound like he’s still running away though and still avoiding looking at himself! So has a different life so he can pretend to be that new person!

Thank you for sharing

X

When I first came to this site, I was a few months post BD and not sleeping very much....I think we all can remember those days.  I spent hours reading the posts and others stories.  It gave me a glimpse of what I was facing, although, at the time, I didn't want to believe that my situation could last for years.  (I say that with a touch of a smile - as I had absolutely no idea at all how long this type of crisis could possibly last). 

I always thought that, regardless of how my story went, I would come here and post it....maybe it would help others here that are just at the beginning of this crap to see that they really need to move forward and live their lives - as their spouses (or ex-spouses) are lost and will be that way for a very, very long time. 

Do I think he is still running?  Sure - probably.  I do think that he's looked at himself more than he has ever....I think he is a broken, old man.  And, I think it is very sad.  Sad for our family, sad for me, and ultimately sad for him.

Hugs,

L

[serenity]

Limitless

I agree with what you said about them being sad, broken old men and in my H’s case in very poor health.

I do think it’s very important that you come back and tell us where you are and what’s happening in your world.

In the early days when my pain was raw, I would always read your posts and take comfort from them and admired your strength

Hugs

X

[limitless]

Limitless, how did you honestly feel after reading that?  Did it help you at all?
Of course there are no actions from him to make up for what he did, it just shows he FEELS remorse.
Do you feel that way too?

I am going through quite a bit of emotion.  Most of it is sadness, for the loss of what once was. 
I don't need any "actions" from him.  Nor do I want any.  After all these years - he is a stranger to me. 
I just saw that he was writing me these superficial words (in his first email) - like all was well and he just wanted to send me some nice words....and I wanted none of that.
I asked for an apology and he sent me one. 
I do believe that he regrets and feels remorse.
I believe that none of it panned out the way he had wanted.
And I believe that some (or much) of the email was him attempting to release himself of the guilt that he feels...that this email was as much as for him, as he thought it was for me.

It doesn't sound like he wants to reconcile...and maybe it is to ease his conscience, but maybe right now that's all he can give you, an explanation and an apology.  Own what he did.

In my own personal opinion, of it were my H writing this, it would make me feel good he took the time to explain things, even the part about truly loving you (at least you know you were right he did), but also sad that it doesn't seem he wants to reconcile.  At least not yet.

Is that how you feel, Limitless?

Does that mean you have to be friends with him?  Of course not.

Reconcile?  No.  Nothing like that at all.  Just an old man, full of regret.  For himself?  Absolutely!  For his family?  Yes...and regret for me, as well...

I'm guessing that he spends quite a bit of time thinking about what happened....I should say - what he did.  It didn't just happen, like an accident happens. 

Friends?  I could never see him as a friend of mine...ever. 

We do have 3 kids together.  And that will never change. 

I am not sure how I feel exactly.  A bit empty, I guess.  Sad, absolutely! 

And very glad not to be him.

L

[Treasur]

Thank you for sharing it and your feelings and thoughts about it.
I'm sure that Air is quite right...that our need for these things and our reaction to them changes over time.
It is sad. For everyone affected in different ways.
I wonder actually, reading your response, if it is one of these reasons why even years later some LBS would welcome reconciliation bc it feels like a way to make something good from a sad, tragic waste of good things. Otherwise I suppose, like it sounds you do, we just have to accept how sad it is, how little we could do, how grateful we are to no longer be battered by it and count the blessings we have. But still feel sad now and then about it all.

[Thunder]

Limitless, I can understand your feelings.

Yes it may be to alleviate some guilt, but it would still, in my heart, make me feel better to get an apology and at least SOME explanation.
Many do not get even close to that.

The sad thing is, regardless of any thing he said, he still broke up a family unit.  No words can ever replace that.  No amount of remorse can fix that.
So I understand the empty feeling too.

Hugs

[Mitzpah]

Limitless,

I wrote on your thread too.

I don't need any "actions" from him.  Nor do I want any.  After all these years - he is a stranger to me. 
I just saw that he was writing me these superficial words (in his first email) - like all was well and he just wanted to send me some nice words....and I wanted none of that.
I asked for an apology and he sent me one. 
I do believe that he regrets and feels remorse.
I believe that none of it panned out the way he had wanted.
And I believe that some (or much) of the email was him attempting to release himself of the guilt that he feels...that this email was as much as for him, as he thought it was for me.

>snip<


Reconcile?  No.  Nothing like that at all.  Just an old man, full of regret.  For himself?  Absolutely!  For his family?  Yes...and regret for me, as well...

I'm guessing that he spends quite a bit of time thinking about what happened....I should say - what he did.  It didn't just happen, like an accident happens. 

Friends?  I could never see him as a friend of mine...ever. 

We do have 3 kids together.  And that will never change. 

I am not sure how I feel exactly.  A bit empty, I guess.  Sad, absolutely! 

And very glad not to be him.

L

I agree with that L, it probably worked out comforting him more than anything else.

Yes, like you, we have three kids together and that won't change. I attempt to keep on friendly terms with him for that reason alone. I am his friend, however, he is not currently my friend even if he thinks he is.

Just saw this

I wonder actually, reading your response, if it is one of these reasons why even years later some LBS would welcome reconciliation bc it feels like a way to make something good from a sad, tragic waste of good things. Otherwise I suppose, like it sounds you do, we just have to accept how sad it is, how little we could do, how grateful we are to no longer be battered by it and count the blessings we have. But still feel sad now and then about it all.

Yes, that does explain the way I feel

[limitless]

Treasur,

I think that what you have said is the kicker to me of all of this.

"how little we could do"

Exactly!

While I was a "great mother and wife"....yet he betrayed and abandoned me!  No pity party here.  Just putting those words together to see how totally illogical they are!

Sure...we could have been different,  I could have been better to him, nicer to him, more supportive of him, more understanding....Except for maybe releasing the guilt that I carry - it wouldn't have made any difference.

There was very little we could do....if anything at all.

L

[xyzcf]

Thank you for sharing his letter to you. I found myself nodding as he explained some of his feelings regarding his crisis, a sense that he couldn't stop what happened and the acknowledgement that you were a wonderful wife and mother, that he loved you.

Yes, there is some "I couldn't help what happened" to his apology...but I have long learned that sometimes this is the best they are able to give..because they truly are sad and broken people.

These two quotes struck me the most:

maybe it would help others here that are just at the beginning of this crap to see that they really need to move forward and live their lives - as their spouses (or ex-spouses) are lost and will be that way for a very, very long time. 

Do I think he is still running?  Sure - probably.  I do think that he's looked at himself more than he has ever....I think he is a broken, old man.  And, I think it is very sad.  Sad for our family, sad for me, and ultimately sad for him.

I remember all the hours/days/weeks spent looking at every  nuance of every action or inaction, every word said.....I don't know how I could have broken that, for it was not healthy to focus so much on things I had no control over and the guessing whether something meant anything consumed me, as you all know.

I think DGU had the best approach, whenever Trusting or I would bring up something that was said or done he'd look at us, shrug and say, he's still in crisis.

What we had no clue of is how long crisis can last...also, I guess I believed that there was some reassurance that eventually the crisis would end...certainly some of their behaviors will calm down and I guess you can say they are "out of their crisis" but have been irrevocably changed, as we have been irrevocably changed.

I cannot really judge my husband's life..it doesn't look very satisfying to me ...I know that in the long run, I am grateful to be who I am in this mess, grateful that I have not done any of the things he did to destroy our family.

Good to hear from you!

[Mortesbride]

You acknowledged my changes, and felt it made a difference. What hurt me was you felt I needed to change, and the problems were everything I brought on. You never acknowledged you could use some help/change. You were okay, and I was the problem.

... I was falling apart, and I was at fault, so I was on my own. I’m sorry I didn’t sit you down and tell you I was heading to a dead end. I felt, it wouldn’t matter, I was always wrong and you were always right.  I put you through decades of hell, I gave you every reason to lack trust in me, and baffle you with BS to cover my inner self. I still have my problems within, my demons and comfort zone.

...I was lost and someone heard me  cry, and offered to help. For what ever reason, I just wanted to have people like me. I had no friends anymore, they all left. It seems I could only have friends you would approve of.

The whole letter was very nice to read. It would be good for every LBS to get something similar if not the reconciliation they hope for. At least some measure of peace, acknowledgement, or apology...for whatever it is worth at the time.

But the bits I cropped above really struck me deep. As if my own MLCer was talking to me. Making me reflect on what may have made him feel the way he did I guess.

[Anjae]

Song, Limitless said she asked her husband for what she needed, and it include an apologie.


What do I see in the letter? Many apologies, I see him saying where he is now, I see him say he messed up, I see him saying it was not Limitless fault, I see his regret, etc.


I do not doubt the sincerity of the letter. I think it is genuine and heartfelt. It is what Limitless wanted.

I understand your feelings, Limitless. It is a lot to process.

Agree it is what he did, not what happened. It just didn't happen. Precise actions were necessary.

His he still running? He is still with OW, I would say, he is still running. A bit, at least, maybe he still needs the comfort of escaping and OW. He also has awareness and is no longer blaming his LBS.

Regardless of what they say, or evew do - in the case of those who take actions, they still broke a family/marriage, caused much hurt and damage. That is always the sad reality of MLC, even if there is reconnection/reconciliation.

Yep, DGU would be right, he is still in crisis. Going by the letter, a little less dark crisis than before.

Personally, it would not be enough for me, because it wouldn't make a difference to me. I don't want an apology letter, I want restorative actions. I do not mind a "I'm sorry, I messed up", but alone it has no meaning to me. I heard a few of those over the years, nothing practical changed.

I have tons of e-mails with Mr J's feelings, etc. I have his letters to OW1 and OW2. I know his pre-MLC self loved me, I know I was a good wife and his best friend for 20 years. I have heard and read plenty MLCers saying similar things to Limitless' husband, in real life and HS. It is another script, not the BD one, the awakening one, so to speak.

To me, the only thing that makes a real difference is a very big fat check. Apologies are just words.

Mr J is not happy. He remains angry, sad, at times monsters. He looks terrible. Like we say around here, not my circus, not my monkeys. He has the life he choose.

As for the MLCers feeling, respectfully, I don't care. The MLCer had the chance to sort his/herself out long ago. The MLCer's feelings are the consequence of their actions and their problem. Not mine.

I know, I know, I can be quite hard. However, like Thunder pointed, nothing changes the MLCer broke everything. Not their feelings, not their apologies. For most, not even their actions.

Each LBS should have what they think they need, be it an apology, a big fat check or any other thing. Hope we all get it.

[in it]

 Me too Anjae  ...Yep I agree.

Not a damn thing that could be said to me that would make one bit of difference, just a big fat check. One the size of the original divorce settlement (which was 50 grand short of what I wanted).

Seems to be all this is about in the end anyway is money.

They suffered nor suffer loss without us in their life. We were the problem, it was all our fault. Best be rid of us then they can be happy. Do whatever they want to do.

In my case he just lost his favorite thing to abuse- that's all. And I do know abusers are lazy, so he probably wouldn't spend the energy to groom someone all over again to take his crap.

So money works for me.

The ex once said the only way you can hurt a man is in his wallet. So I guess it was really easy for him to cause all this destruction. Didn't bother him one bit.

Turns out it was the best thing that could have happened to me..but for the money I got?  Uhh nope.

[Mortesbride]

Perhaps I am the odd one...but I do not think any amount of money Beast could give me...would make up for what was done/is lost.

There are much more important things that could be done..than write a check. 

[in it]

Well you'd think so Morte.
And the best apology is a changed behavior and it's all what you are willing to accept at this age.
Money can't make my loss any easier..but it gives me some more freedom.
That doesn't mean in any sense there would be any reconcilation..

[Anjae]

It is not always about the money in the end, In It. Some LBS divorced or had a legal separation and suffered no, or little, financial loss. Also, most LBS do not have a physically abusive MLCer.

I agree Mr J suffered no loss without me in his life. He suffered no quality of life loss, the opposite. He has more money, a bigger flat, etc. He also didn't lost a social circle, etc. I can't see anything that he had lost.

Not that I wanted to live in the big fancy flat with a drunk MLCer.

Mr J did not groom me. He was only physically abusive while having psychotic episodes after BD. I don't anyone to have the wrong idea, Mr J is not a serial abuser that grooms women to abuse them. His abuse come with MLC.

Perhaps I am the odd one...but I do not think any amount of money Beast could give me...would make up for what was done/is lost.

You're not the odd one. Most LBS want an apology and/or reconciliation. At least early on. Mr J left mid October 2006, Morte, not a couple of years ago.

No amount of money will ever make up for what the MLCer did, but money is a practical thing than can help a LBS. What exactly would I, or In It, do with an apology from our MLCer? Nothing.

Personally, nothing is more important than a big fat check. There is nothing else Mr J can do that would even start to make amends for all the horrendous things he did. You and I have totally different situations/MLCers, Morte.

There are much more important things that could be done..than write a check. 

Like what? Financial restoration is the only legal restoration for things which damages can never be fully repaired: war, loss of life, rape, malpractice, slader, divorce, adultery (in my country the Supreme Court decided that adultery is painful and impacts a person's life and, therefore, the cheater must pay a certain amount). The law cannot quantify feelings or pain.

[in it]

I'm curious too, like what Morte?

[Mitzpah]

Perhaps I am the odd one...but I do not think any amount of money Beast could give me...would make up for what was done/is lost.

There are much more important things that could be done..than write a check. 

I agree with you Morte.

Of course, if I had more money, life would be easier, however, it would not be any kind of compensation for what I feel we have lost.

Money is not very important to me at all. The lack of it makes life more difficult, the fact I have to fend for myself is hard. On the other hand, money is no real comfort, is it?

[Anjae]

Mitz, can you explain to me and In It what other thing, aside from money, could compensate for what Mr J and Mr In It have done? Money is a huge comfort. It buys comfort, security, freedom, etc. It does not bring happiness, but it is a practical help.

I am not aware of any other way of compensate for MLC  damages aside from money, unless people want to reconcile and even so ... What exactly is Mr J to do as amends? Write a "I am sorry" note? That has no value and no practical use.

[xyzcf]

There is absolutely no amount of money that could "compensate" for the heart break and the permanent damage that he has done to me and to our family.

Money would not heal the wounds. It doesn't even make life "easier" as much as it might appear to....

[Mitzpah]

Mitz, can you explain to me and In It what other thing, aside from money, could compensate for what Mr J and Mr In It have done? Money is a huge comfort. It buys comfort, security, freedom, etc. It does not bring happiness, but it is a practical help.

I am not aware of any other way of compensate for MLC  damages aside from money, unless people want to reconcile and even so ... What exactly is Mr J to do as amends? Write a "I am sorry" note? That has no value and no practical use.

I agree Anjae, that for you and In It, money may be a valid compensation. You have both worked through very traumatic circumstances and have come out as survivors of DV.

In my case, and I speak for myself only, I lost a precious relationship, I see the pain in my children, my mother, my brothers and sisters, our friends. It is difficult to quantify the pain and rupture this has caused in our lives. Money would never be an adequate compensation. I am able to support myself, I have been able to help my children and even my h. through all of the financial devastation this has caused. I do not have a rosy future as a retired single woman, so I face working well beyond what I expected. In this country, couples are better off...

Yet money does not hug me, money does not comfort my children, money is a cold bed fellow, money wants to be a master and I do not want a master.

God is good to me and has been my comfort when no comfort is found. God has provided when I couldn't see a way out. God has healed when I couldn't afford medical treatment or medical treatment was at a loss...

So, money is NOT important to me, however, I can see that it is and should be important to those who have been offended beyond forgiveness.

I support your efforts in requesting financial compensation, I am sure it is well deserved.

[Anjae]

I agree Anjae, that for you and In It, money may be a valid compensation. You have both worked through very traumatic circumstances and have come out as survivors of DV.

Thank you, Mitz. For In It, I and a few others on the same circunstances, money is the only thing left. We are not saying it compensates for all it was done, nothing will, but some compensation is necessary.

We have all lost a precious relationship. At least I also did. Pre-MLC Mr J was not MLC Mr J. Pre-MLC no longer exists and MLC Mr J did monstrous things.

My mum says Mr J was the best son-in-law she had. It is true. She said that the other day and I told her, yes, but none of your other sons-in-lay was abusive towards your daugthers. Mum, my sisters and at least one of my brothers miss Mr J (the real one, of course). I don't. Which I found strange, but I really don't.

So, money is NOT important to me, however, I can see that is is and should be important to those who have been offended beyond forgiveness.

For me it is not so much about forgiveness, Mr J is forgived, but justice.

I support your efforts in requesting financial compensation, I am sure it is well deserved.

Thank you, Mitz. It is. And I am legally entitled to it. Having the MLCer agreeing to pay is another matter. Which is why out of Replay, normal Mr J would be very important to be. He would understand and pay. OK, he would probably try to come back as well.

[in it]

 Yes Mitz thank you. That's exactly what it's about Anjae..justice.

I have also forgiven and forgiven myself first.

I lost the relationship I thought I had with my own children due to the ex and his lies and his games and brainwashing..not to even tell you about the physical damage, triggers etc I still deal with as an after effect. I am getting better.

On the plus side .I lost a lot of that woman who would put up with that kind of crap again. Again no one deserves abuse.

[Nas]

Mitzpah, thank you very much for your post. It is much appreciated.
For those of us who were financially deceived/bankrupted/left penniless by an MLCer, money is of huge importance and would make a massive difference.
Not only to our lives and the comfort of our day to day existence, but having an MLCer offer some form of financial recompense would show that the MLCer is treating us with some semblance of respect.
Mort, I don’t know if your H is financially providing for you and your children, but I can say from experience that when they not only don’t provide financial support but also leave us in dire financial circumstances, money matters a hell of a lot more than anything else.

[Treasur]

I suspect when we lose things or are profoundly damaged by others behaviours, the sense of what would be a good enough recompense for it is very personal. And perhaps some things cannot be made good or repaired with either words or actions. What happened, happened. At different times, different things might have helped us but they didn't happen so we pressed on without them. Finding peace with that, with the sense of injustice maybe, is probably part of our own process through this experience and we may reach quite different conclusions both at different times and one from another.

[Bewildered survivor]

I’m at the point where I don’t want anything from MLCer. Everything is currently used by him as a form of power or control. Currently he is trying to use money as a way to hurt me. So my thinking is now that I want to be at a position where I don’t need his money and I can support myself and my girls without it. No idea if I’ll be able to provide them with the financial security they had when we were together but I know I will be able to provide a roof over their heads, food on the table and the ability to recognise the value of money and work ethic. I don’t want to ever be reliant on him for anything and plan to put his child maintenance (when I get it) away in care he ever withdraws it. I do understand why people would say money is compensation and if it’s your entitlement and was taken from you by MLCer- yes that would be compensation. That’s why I plan to fight for what is mine and my kids in court but after that I will never rely on a man for anything again. Just where I’m at.

Limitless I’m not sure how I would feel if I got an apology letter like that as I’m still so early on in this and feel like I need it for closure. I have a feeling I may feel that way about it years to come to. Although not needed it would be welcomed.

[Songanddance]

So my thinking is now that I want to be at a position where I don’t need his money and I can support myself and my girls without it. No idea if I’ll be able to provide them with the financial security they had when we were together but I know I will be able to provide a roof over their heads, food on the table and the ability to recognise the value of money and work ethic. I don’t want to ever be reliant on him for anything and plan to put his child maintenance (when I get it) away in care he ever withdraws i

Good thinking Bewildered.  Moving forward and living as if he isn't coming back.  Very healthy mindset there.

[readytofixmyselffirst]

Most LBS want an apology and/or reconciliation. At least early on. Mr J left mid October 2006,

Gosh, I am getting old. I was thinking to myself, that wasn't too long ago. Then it dawned on my. That was 13 years ago!

(in my country the Supreme Court decided that adultery is painful and impacts a person's life and, therefore, the cheater must pay a certain amount).

I wish that ruling was in the US! I paid my fair share of both alimony and child support. My ex and I agreed on an amount where I paid her the max in alimony for 5 years and then I was done. So I had to pay someone who cheated on me. I also paid child support which I didn't mind.

I did mind that the court did not take into account my oldest. She was over 18 and stayed with me full time through college. I covered her expenses and college as well. I was so poor! I remember just having a few dollars left in the bank account and counting the days to my next paycheck.

For me it is not so much about forgiveness, Mr J is forgived, but justice.

I haven't forgiven her yet, and I won't get justice. Forgiveness is hard. I want to be honest. I could easily write and tell people that I have forgiven her and get away with looking noble. However, I have found that being honest with your true feelings is the best way of getting to the point where I can forgive.

I have also accepted that I will never receive an apology either. My ex was never wrong pre MLC, MLC, or whatever stage she is in now.

However, I am in a much better place now. I am happily married, living in a home filled with love. To share good times, laughter, and enjoy the presence of their lives with mine.

My mum says Mr J was the best son-in-law she had.

I bet that was due to the fact Mr J had the best wife he will ever have. Some people have a way of bringing out the best in others!

((((Hugs))))

Ready

[forthetrees]

There is a concept of restorative justice. While it applies to instances of crime, a lot of the theory could apply to what MLCers have done to their families. I´m not sure that in the case of wild MLC behavior that both parties meeting face to face is healthy for the LBS, at least not until the MLCer has made some progress on the journey. What resonates with me is the part about taking responsibility and making amends. Some of this happens in a divorce that includes mediation, but in most of our cases, the path of mediation is not a doable option and I suppose that is why it feels more like a crime has been committed and that the LBS is the victim of the bomb drop and betrayal. You can find more at restorativejustice.org

This was taken from their website:
If restorative justice were a building, it would have four cornerposts:

    Inclusion of all parties
    Encountering the other side
    Making amends for the harm
    Reintegration of the parties into their communities

To review: restorative justice...

    is a different way of thinking about crime and our response to crime
    focuses on repairing the harm caused by crime and reducing future harm through crime prevention
    requires offenders to take responsibility for their actions and for the harm they have caused
    seeks redress for victims, recompense by offenders and reintegration of both within the community
    requires a cooperative effort by communities and the government



   

[Mortesbride]

I guess I will have to agree it is a ''different types of MLCers'' ''different time lines'' and ''different LBS'' type of discussion.

All I know is..if Beast shows up 10 years from now...and offers to write me a pay check to ''make it all better''... I would probably be so insulted I might just end him and get a pay check anyway. 

But again, I am not very money orientated. When my father passed away it took me 6 months to even consider taking my inheritance because it felt like blood money. ''Your father died...here's a check!'' It wasn't until I thought about it as him looking after me even after he was gone before I was able to go down and take it. By then all my siblings had blown theirs!

At the end of the day I will make my own money, and it will likely be more than Beast will ever make. Unless he ends up becoming a famous Buddhist romance novelist after all....assuming the sheep doesn't eat it. 

I can see why it might be a comfort to you. To help ease your life at this stage. But for me...a check would be an insult. I would rather a letter like that, or a conversation, or a consistent act and change in behaviour.

But to each their very own.

[Nas]

Well I may have felt like you once, Mort.
But when a middle aged woman has spent the last 15-30 years working hard and building a life and the MLCer goes off the rails and loses everything the lbs has spent so long working for, it’s different.
There is quite a bit less time to rebuild and much fewer opportunities.
I respect many of your comments and I fully believe you have gone through the same pain as the rest of us, but please remember that you’re quite a bit younger than almost everyone here.
When you are 45, 55 or 60 years old, you would feel quite differently about recouping massive losses caused by someone else.
I know I can say I am not “money-oriented” and I suspect the others here aren’t either.
We are just women who worked very hard and are now left financially hurting in a world that doesn’t really hold as much opportunity for women our age as we might have had when we were 30. Yes, we can rebuild, but the doors aren’t opening for us. We have to kick them down.

[in it]

Nope money didn't mean much to me either years ago.
However after you have spent years of your life working to have a nice family and for the most part many blessings (minus the abuse) There was a lot that family had to be grateful for.

To have someone as self centered and already had just about anything anybody could want materially and financially he still was neither grateful, satisfied or happy.

Nothing was nor will it ever be enough for him.

This is the person who levels my life , makes these decisions while I for a (second time) pick up the pieces because I'm stupidly thinking he's having a MLC and oh poor him. He'll want his family back as I did..nope wrong again.

I've suffered enough as have my  D's in regards to his stupidity, lack of judgement, and his total lack of control of himself, the sick kick he gets out of hurting others,  his depraved indifference for their suffering, not to mention his need for control.and outragous lies.

[Ready2Transform]

Financially I was doing a ton better than my xH when he left, but never in a million years did I think the courts wouldn't equitably split the joint debt that was in my name - that he could stretch it out to the point I'd have to file bankruptcy. I'm a small business owner - I needed my good credit. I had one credit card for 19 years! I remember trying to discuss options with them on the phone and they counted up my late payments for all of those years (could count them on one hand, and it was very early on when I was still remitting payments by mail and they didn't make it by due dates). The woman was sadder than I was!

I did it because I too was not a money person. His happiness and anything I could do to try to facilitate that was more important to me.

He ran up crazy bills for restaurants and gas to visit OW and general billpay from not working, and he was allowed to. There were debts for his failed businesses because he bullied me into adding him as a secondary on my good accounts (I KNOW - believe me, no one madder at myself than me), and I was left holding the bag while he started his "new life" with a clean slate.

I have made peace with the financial devastation and am still rebuilding, slowly but surely. I can't do everything I want to right now, but it doesn't stop me from doing all I can. If I were younger I wouldn't be as concerned about retirement planning and my day to day security, but that's not the case now. It's not something that's a choice. Some of us are having to start our lives from scratch financially and it's scary as hell! If divorce is inevitable, or even a longterm separation and your MLCer is showing any signs of dropping the ball, you HAVE to protect yourself. Your health and wellbeing (and your kids' if you have them) depend on it.

[Anjae]

I suspect when we lose things or are profoundly damaged by others behaviours, the sense of what would be a good enough recompense for it is very personal. And perhaps some things cannot be made good or repaired with either words or actions.

This.

Morte, indeed it has to do with our own personalitty, situation, etc. I would like the check. As FTT pointed, it related to restorative justice. I quite like the idea/concept of restorative justice and agree with FTT, it is something that could be applied to MLC cases.

Mediation with a MLCer tends to fail. Even court and lawyers. The deep in crisis MLCer often ignores all legal duties. How many here have a MLCer who does not even pay child support? Many.

I am not crazy money oriented, but I do not know any other way for justice/restorative justice to be done. Nor does the law.

I was 37 when Mr J left, I am now 50 and will be 51 by the end of the year. Like Nas said, age makes a difference. Even if, in my case, maybe because I have a bit of a legal oriented mind, money for restoration never upseted me. Money/compensation is also used in cases like war, loss of life, etc. That is, in every case where words alone aren't enough/do not fit.

Even if I were to become a billionaire I would still want compensation. I would give all the money to those who need it. I am not good with letting the MLCer getting away with murder.

It was a long time ago, Ready, in another decade. I have forgive Mr J, but I always say that I do not know how it would be if he would come back/was around. It is easier to forgive, even if the crazy in on-going as with Mr J, if we do not have to live with the MLCer.

Our Supreme Court thing related to adultery is recent here. By law, now, adultery is no longer cause for divorce. However, adultery still causes many problems and our Supreme Court aknowledged it.

I bet that was due to the fact Mr J had the best wife he will ever have. Some people have a way of bringing out the best in others!

Could be, but he the real Mr J was a good husband, friend, son-in-law, etc. The MLC version? Run.

I have no idea if Mr J will ever pay what he legally has to. However, for me, an apology is not enough. And, at some point, the legal matters will have to be solved.

[hawk]

Hi to one and all , been awhile for me and although l can't say it's nice to be back , l can say it's nice to see everyone.  And to be among the only people l know that have gone through this .
Funny your talking about some form of comp or a way to feel better or of making it up to us , or whatever you wanna call it. l'm talking about closure myself right now and l'm still feeling , dreaming maybe more like it , of a better closure.
So that would be a nice compensation for me right now. But going back  in time and giving my daughter her family back for this last 6 yrs would be a much better one.

No use even thinking about money in our sitch , we could've stopped working mostly, def' w could've completely, a few years after bd. But the timing of bd , blew the whole lot and everything we'd worked for, to hell and back and now we'll both be working for god knows how long , probably well past retirement.
W hasn't had a penny in years and she's working harder than ever before. She was exhausted at bd , and with all kinds of health stuff but l hate to think how she's coping now. l think she's still paying of the debts she racked up , they must be dozy's , or om's house, or both , or something.
l actually feel bad for her but anyway , so there sure is no hope in hell of anything good financially , not even for her.

But yeah, so for me l would choose the impossible and this made up to my daughter. Or closure , something.!

[Treasur]

Unfortunately none of us can go back in time can we? All we can do is accept where we are now and do the best we can with the cards we have.

And closure? I think Nah said on your thread that we can't look to them for closure. If that had been possible, they probably wouldn't have behaved the way they did. I honestly believe that we have to find or make our own. Not easy but time and good things in our lives help. Tbh there are some who pop up years later with the apologies or explanations we desparately wanted initially but from what I can see for most LBS, they have already made their own closure and it doesn't add much useful.

[hawk]

Yeah , l suppose so.
l'm luckier than most l suppose , because l know pretty well everything , l probably already have more closure than most, but not quite, and ex was one of the better ones too.
How lucky am l then eh.
l'd probably even be about 200% sure that if not for om , w probably would've popped up long ago and apologized .

lt ain't gonna happen but l really hope we all get something, one day.

[LearningIamOk]

I am going to be 60 this year. I have no college degree or real marketable skills. I got lucky when I left banking and found a job in a law office. I am making more money, but no 401k here and the health insurance isn't as good. But I have my weekends off, I don't have to hit 40 hours a week to keep my health insurance, and most importantly, I am not volunTOLD to go places on Sunday mornings to spread the bank's "culture".

But returning to the topic at hand, money is the only thing I need in order to not be a burden to my kids as I age. I don't need verbal closure from a crazy person. At one point I did ask my xH to explain himself so I could have closure. He asked me to send my questions to him in an email. I never did. I realized that he was not capable of saying anything that would help me. I didn't need his BS and fabricated responses to my earnest request for closure.

[hawk]

We're doing up this house l bought to resell, and then hope to buy the next one with the profit, making my own compensation financially for this mess so it's either that and yet another move because of all this, or work until l'm 110 now.
Ex sent me this really long text a few wks back , haven't heard from her in months, and at the bottom she needed $40 for my daughters school uniform, which of course l happily pay for anyway, but l just couldn't believe she was that broke.

[xyzcf]

Their cycles......I wish I knew what the "rules" are...after so many years I don't have a clue.

I saw him in April, he was here on business and we had lunch, hit some golf balls, he brought me gifts. Mother's Day, sweet messages.

The day after, when I sent him a message informing him of a death in the family I received a very curt and cold 3 word response. A couple of days later, he send me a TED talk about happiness...I respond with a few comments, no response.

I shared this with my therapist and she said to me "would you ever consider talking with Mr. xyzcf and asking him if it is possible that he could show you just a little bit of respect?" Well, of course talking to him is useless but as usual, she nailed it.

He has not shown me any respect in 10 years, not even the minimal that one would show to a stranger.


RESPECT...I want to scream... I had never looked at it from that perspective...but it creates some really strong feelings in me...respect, RESPECTRespectReSpEcT Thinking about Aretha Franklin:

"I ain't gonna do you wrong while you're gone
Ain't gonna do you wrong 'cause I don't wanna
All I'm askin'
Is for a little respect when you come home (just a little bit)
Baby (just a little bit) when you get home (just a little bit)
Yeah (just a little bit)"

I have long been sensitive to the "silent treatment"..when my dad would do that to my mom, it would cause me great distress. In our marriage, when Mr. xyzcf would not talk to me, I would automatically think he was mad at me for something and didn't know what it was I had done.....it's my own pattern I guess.

Is this it? The divorce was final almost a year ago..he withdrew after that for a while and then started contacting again..Is he finally done with me now?

Who knows. It is truly the most bizzare situation that anyone could have to live through.

[in it]

I have to agree xy
It's all about respect.
It's not good to let others get comfortable disrespecting us.
You cannot demand respect but you can refused to be disrespected.
And it might be better for you if you do not send him anything. That way he cannot be dismissive of how you might be feeling or going through.

If he makes an attempt at contact , you can decide what you want to do then.

[Anjae]

The lack of respect Mr J start to show towards me even before he left, and has been showing since, is one of the most off putting things for me. If not the most.

If you think your husband does not shows you respect, why do you still allow him to spend time with you? Shouldn't respect start with you?

I don't see sending three words after being told someone died as a silent treatment or lack of respect. Maybe because all I would say would be "I am so sorry for your loss" or something equally short.

[Thunder]

I am truly, truly sorry xyzcf.

Sweetie, why would you worry if HE is done with YOU?
You maybe should be done with him.

After he divorced you, after 9 years, you sounded strong and said no more contact like you were having before, the gifts and spending time together..yet you allowed it once again.

Xyzcf, you know how much I care about you.  This is not a crashing down 2x4, it is just a gentle, loving reality check.
He just slides right back into cake eating once again.

That has been his MO for a long time.  I think your D saw it a long time ago.  He is giving you crumbs. Stop accepting them.  Just stop.

If you need to talk I'm here for you.  Believe me I KNOW how hard this is. 

{{{Big Hug}}}

[xyzcf]

His response of three words are not the cause of what led to the discussion of the lack of respect with my therapist..but a cascade of years of stuff that my therapist and I have uncovered...like peeling an onion, there are layers and layers.

Another thing that helped me a great deal, that took pressure off me was when my therapist made the comment that "I can choose to see him or not. That is my choice and it can change from one time to another".

I am feeling vulnerable right now. 5 people I am close to have died in less than one year. I am experiencing health problems and I am overwhelmed sometimes by trying to take care of my house, especially this time of year. My dog is getting old and is also not doing so well.

I know why I continue to see him. It is complicated and has a multiple of reasons, none of which I need to justify to any one on HS. 

I didn't write here today for "advice"...I thought maybe others might also see this lack of respect as an interesting observation...it might apply to someone else ( in it seems to get it). Those of us who have spent years, have a different set of circumstances to deal with.

Those who have their MLCer living with them or who have returned to live with them....I do not see people asking them why they continue to "see" their husbands...even when their relationships are less than ideal.

The one main factor is and always will be what Christ told us ...to love one another as I have loved you, including those who are your enemy, especially those who hurt you......I try to live that way with everyone, including the man I still love and probably always will.

[Trustandlove]

I get it about the lack of respect.  I also get it about choosing to see him, I did so with mine for many years, and very likely still would do so if he were to contact me.   I also get it about loving him.

I remember years ago saying to my H that I couldn't make him do anything, but that I could take myself out of a situation where I wasn't respected.

The one thing I don't do right now is contact him, about anything -- including anything to do with our now technically adult children, even things that parents "should" be in touch about.   The times we have had contact before the last few years I did find myself enforcing boundaries, for lack of a better word -- not the kind we first think of, where we'd say we won't do a while they are doing b, but correcting things that are untrue with the basic words of "you know that's not true", that kind of thing.  More specifically, saying no, you aren't, when he tried to say that he was always there as a father. 

My reasons for not contacting are basically about respect; I wasn't being shown any, not even courtesy, so I realised that if there was anything he wanted from me about the children or anything else, it really was up to him.  It was a pattern that had been repeated many times over the years; there was one specific incident where not even common courtesy was observed that made me sadly come to the conclusion that I would no longer be sending him anything to do with the children. 

My children don't initiate contact with him; they respond with something very basic if he contacts them. 

Were he to contact me I am sure I would be polite even in the face of monster, and if my past experience is any guide I would also be compassionate if he were to say something was wrong.  I have no idea what might make him be in touch, however, so I will have to trust that I will know how to respond if that happens. 

[Songanddance]

The day after, when I sent him a message informing him of a death in the family I received a very curt and cold 3 word response. A couple of days later, he send me a TED talk about happiness...I respond with a few comments, no response.

This shows a complete lack of empathy on his behalf.  It also shows avoidance and possibly not through the tunnel even yet.  If he avoids showing empathy but then sends something about happiness it is definitely something about him.

Yes your T nailed it and I am going to ask another question - "what are your values?"

If one of your values is to "be respected" then you ask for it.  If he can't at least acknowledge that in a true sense then you will know.

Thunder is correct though - it is a question of you being done with him rather than wondering if he is done with you.

[Treasur]

I am so sorry, xyz, that a series of recent life events have left you feeling a bit low.
And of course you don't have to justify yourself to anyone at all including us.
You will continue to work on your own healing and rebuilding as you have done and your choices will evolve as part of your own path.

Respect is a funny incredibly important thing isn't it? Often one we take for granted until being disrespected repeatedly starts to really bite. For me, in many ways I think it is a cornerstone of many other good things...kindness, patience, love, grace, empathy. Unless we can see someone as a human worthy of respect just as a human first, people just become objects or commodities or servants to our needs.

In a way which is quite hard to explain, there is a kind of disrespect which almost denies someone else's existence I think. Certainly it felt like that to me sometimes on the receiving end. I can't make someone see me as a person not an object, let alone as a person worth valuing....and if they don't they are unlikely to treat me with respect and I can't change that either.

In my own case, there seemed to be a point when my h simply decided that my thoughts, feelings and even my life were simply irrelevant to him. Which is rather awful and says much more about him than me....but my feeling was that it was futile to interact at all with someone who acted that way. How can you possibly have a conversation or make an agreement if someone else sees your part as worth nothing at all? For me, NC was accepting that this was probably how he felt bc it was consistently how he behaved and it damaged me to experience being treated with not even basic respect or hoping it would change. But it was a very peculiar kind of realisation, rather horrible to accept, and took me quite a long time to swallow. I guess one of my values is that showing and being treated with basic respect as a human being is actually very important to me.

[Nerissa]

I have long been sensitive to the "silent treatment"..when my dad would do that to my mom, it would cause me great distress. In our marriage, when Mr. xyzcf would not talk to me, I would automatically think he was mad at me for something and didn't know what it was I had done.....it's my own pattern I g

I think quite a few of us do this - look for the cause in ourselves.  I think it originates in a certain lack of self esteem.  Our spouses allow and encourage it.  Some of us are in caring professions - you are a nurse and trained to know what patients will need before they know it themselves sometimes, and they may not always be behaving at their best.  It all leads to a tendency to put ourselves last and not demand the respect we deserve.

your discussions with your T sound helpful.  I don’t think spouses always realise quite how disrespectful they are.  I remember texting mine to say that another man had said H ‘should see me doing (x activity) because if he saw how competent I was he might ‘learn some respect’.  H was horrified (year I travelled right through the text 😆 and thereafter often mentioned respect and was more self aware.  So maybe a short conversation might raise awareness.  After all, you have nothing to lose as you are always polite.

[OldPilot]

In my own case, there seemed to be a point when my h simply decided that my thoughts, feelings and even my life were simply irrelevant to him. Which is rather awful and says much more about him than me....but my feeling was that it was futile to interact at all with someone who acted that way. How can you possibly have a conversation or make an agreement if someone else sees your part as worth nothing at all? For me, NC was accepting that this was probably how he felt bc it was consistently how he behaved and it damaged me to experience being treated with not even basic respect or hoping it would change. But it was a very peculiar kind of realisation, rather horrible to accept, and took me quite a long time to swallow. I guess one of my values is that showing and being treated with basic respect as a human being is actually very important to me.

I think that you need to get to a point that it does not matter and that more or less you feel the same way about them.
Having just spent a few hours with my ex at my grand daughters birthday this weekend, we are like two ships passing in the night.

We have common children and grandchildren, memories of things gone by, but their is literally no connection.
I refuse to pursue at all, even to the point of giving a hug, let her initiate that if she chooses.

I guess having history is hard to ignore but complete detachment still seems like the best course of strategy.

I have one more major event to get through with my daughter getting married in September.
And all the associated events.

Of course, it helps that my ex lives 1200 miles away, and is only here on various special events.
Its her loss - not mine.

[LearningIamOk]

Respect is SO important. Not just in a marriage, but every day life. Friends, family, jobs, etc. My xH had no respect for me, ever. After the D, my friends finally started telling me how disrespectful xH was to me. I don't know why he didn't respect me, but I will never tolerate that again.

My boyfriend is so kind, thoughtful, helpful, considerate, everything xH was not. I now know what a normal relationship feels like. I haven't had any contact for nearly a year and haven't seen xH for nearly 3 years. Of course, it's the annual get-the-declaration-page so I know the life insurance he is supposed to carry with me as the beneficiary is there. He will wait for me to contact him, just like every year, even tho' it says in the divorce decree he needs to send it. I think it's his final act of control making me ask for it.

I have no desire to interact with him. I no longer care why he walked out. It's the best thing that could have happened to me.

[Anjae]

Lack of respect is the number one thing with MLCers. Everything they do lacks respect for LBS, children and even themselves. I don't find it interesting, I find it sad that MLCers have no respect for the LBS.

For me, a person who does not respect me is not worthy of my love. Let alone of being in my life.

RCR used to have somewhere that women want love and men want respect. Love, for me, has no value unless it includes respect. I rather be respected than loved.

The real Mr J was  kind, thoughtful, helpful, considerate, generous. As well as smart and funny and we were both on the same page. The MLC person? Nasty, selfish, unkind, disrespectful, a ball of never ending anger without a sense of humour. I also have no desire to interact with MLC Mr J. There is nothing there but a dark, deep, black hole of rage.

The funny thing, or maybe not, is that he deslikes I am not a raging ball. How dare I to smile and be happy go lucky? 

[HeartTattoo]

Lack of respect is the number one thing with MLCers. Everything they do lacks respect for LBS, children and even themselves. I don't find it interesting, I find it sad that MLCers have no respect for the LBS.

XYZ,

I am sorry your recent contact with your H has once again hurt you. I think you always expect him to behave better than he is capable of (or chooses to be). You reset your boundaries to once again allow these contacts, but he ends up disappointing.

I know there is a book out there about Love Languages. Never read it, but absorbed some of it I guess from articles about it. You've always mentioned the lovely gifts he brings on these occasions. I wonder, if in your Love Language you see these gifts as signs of love & respect, & then are hurt & confused when his behavior isn't congruent.

But, in his Love Language the gifts carry a different meaning. Not consciously, of course. Maybe as peace offerings, maybe just to have the hit of endorphins when you are delighted, maybe out of some sense of guilt. IDK But I would bet they don't carry the same meaning for both of you.

Hugs,
HT

[readytofixmyselffirst]

Dear Xyzcf,

I am so sorry for you situation. Your ex is off because he lost his moral compass. I don't know him and have never met him. However, his actions show contempt towards you.

I can't say for sure, but I bet top dollar you push the shopping cart to the return cart or to the front of the store.

If you have a basket of items, you don't go to the express lane to get ahead. You don't just go to church, your actions are those of a Christian.

Does your h follow the rules? Does he care? From what I gather, he just accumulates wealth and that is his measurement of success. Succeed at all costs and get ahead by making as much as you can.

John Gardner wrote a book titled, "Grendel" and the book is written from the monster's point of view. In the book, Grendel searches out the dragon to discovery the meaning of life. The dragon tells him his purpose is to gather as much gold as he can and sit on it. Burn anyone that tries to get his gold. He tells Grendel that he would be happy if he just went and started getting gold and sitting on it too.

My opinion is that your H is the dragon.

Somewhere along the line, he lost his values while you retained yours. When he rejected his values, he rejected you as well.

Now, he sees you as failure because you still have your values while he has none. From his view, he is success because he has the gold and you are the failure because you don't.

That's why he holds you in contempt.

Just my opinion,

((((Hugs))) and more ((((Hugs)))

Ready

[xyzcf]

Thanks all. As we grown and learn from one another, our experiences, always cognizant that each one of us is different in our interactions with our spouses.

I do want to clarify something. I do not pursue him. I respond when he contacts. We continue to contact one another on holidays and special days of remembrance such as each of our parent's anniversaries of their deaths. That has been constant.

I know that some of you think I am wrong, that I need to cut him off completely. I disagree with that, for me in my situation. I feel that healing has occurred when I am able to see him or have contact with him without it causing me to fall completely apart as it once did.....I have come a long way in that regard. Not acknowledging his existence is to me denying something that is real..he is real, I prefer (and again that is my choice) that if at all possible, that we can have some kind of relationship with one another. I believe he is in crisis and he has all the freedom he could possibly have, I ask nothing from him.....to understand that he is a mess, and accept that is important to me. I will not turn my back on him.

He doesn't want to be married to me. But he has shown over and over again, that he also is not able to cut me out of his life.

I brought up the "respect" topic, because I had honestly never seen it this way and it helps me to understand even more, the complete change in who he once was....the better I understand, the easier it is for me.

Ready, you made me laugh:

I can't say for sure, but I bet top dollar you push the shopping cart to the return cart or to the front of the store.

I follow the rules, that is for sure...

he just accumulates wealth and that is his measurement of success.

I think it is also very much about being in charge, powerful, a big shot.

Somewhere along the line, he lost his values while you retained yours. When he rejected his values, he rejected you as well.

In the process of all this, my values and my faith have become deeper and more important to me.

Heart tattoo,

His love language is Gift giving. Mine are Acts of Service and Physical Affection. He has always given me thoughtful and beautiful gifts..I am smiling as I remember, a fringed suede jacket a la Crosby Stills Nash and Young for my 50th birthday (if you knew me you'd get it), having a kick ass stereo installed in my little Honda Civic and when I got into my car, a cassette tape with he and our daughter singing "Happy Birthday" to me......cloths which each time I wear something he has given me people comment, that is suits so much.....

My life is really good now and like I said, I am not looking for advice...this concept of respect was for me such a big thing and the cascade effect was that I could look back over the last 10 years and see that this was something that had changed greatly and I had not thought about it in those terms before.

They don't show us respect...I should have known that all along but somehow I didn't.

Off to golf on a beautiful day. God bless each of you and thank you for your kind words from all over the world.

[OldPilot]

I feel that healing has occurred when I am able to see him or have contact with him without it causing me to fall completely apart as it once did.....I have come a long way in that regard.

I agree that there is nothing wrong with this and I do think it is where we all need to get to - this point.

[hawk]

Personally these days l think l will never recover in some ways but l certainly have in others, but l still get relapses .
l think for us that had an om or ow involved, it's a whole nother scenario, especially if they stay together or worse, bloody go marry them. Even if we have someone else now , that was legit , and after we were thrown away and fired and went through the hell we did , it's a whole nother animal entirely .

l'm amazed though these days that l might pick up my d or drop her off, often ex meets us up the corner , she;ll be in her car me mine , do you know l often forget to acknowledge her or even look over.
l'm usually seeing my d get out the other side and we're sayin goodbye and then l'm off. Sometimes l'll realize half way home later l didn't even look up or wave to ex,
And then l get thinking at how just incredible all this is and that l just drove off from the woman l spent 19yrs of my life with, without even bothering to look up.

But whenever l do remember and think oh , shyt, spose l better wave to ex, she's always watching and has a big smile and wave for me . Suppose that's better than a hating ex right.
But when l do think about it l often wonder what she's thinking, l know she def' notices when l forget and just drive off. And l wonder does our life together flash before her liike it often does with me, does it even exist did it even happen am l anyone at all these days to her, don't you ever think about stuff like that.

[Treasur]

Don't think it will ever entirely stop being surreal, hawk.
We're no longer reeling in shock but let's face it, we're here bc something very weird happened in our lives and to our spouses. There is no closure entirely on the WTF happened feeling...even if we do a fine job of moving forward from it.

[hawk]

Don't think it will ever entirely stop being surreal, hawk.
We're no longer reeling in shock but let's face it, we're here bc something very weird happened in our lives and to our spouses. There is no closure entirely on the WTF happened feeling...even if we do a fine job of moving forward from it.

Yeah with ya on that one treas. l mean really , l'm one of the lucky ones in  that way l pretty well got most of my answers and l can message ex any time or vice verse , wave to each other, she even looks happy to see me, we'll still chat sometimes. But l can only do that totally blocking what happened, yaknow, whatever gets ya through right. Well that gets me through , even now after all this time, l still need to sometimes or l brush off thinking about it when it does pop into my head.
We need to keep something civil for my daughter, but at the same time it's still to this day really effg weird to be like that with ex.
l don't hate her or anything, l was a big part in us breaking up, she went through a lotta crap with me, but it was the giving up on our fAmily and me willing to fix my crap, and the om , none of it had to be like this, we could've worked it out, It's all that stuff that still there if l let it be. And the way she changed and things she did.
She still insists she didn't quit on us , on our family , but l've said yes you did, you just quit on it all and our vows. She almost goes into tears when l still stand firm on that to this day, but that's the way l see it.