[Biscuit]

And one of my W's best friends has recently told me how W has told her she is racked with guilt

[WHY]

Why,

Shocks sis described having guilt with her throughout her whole MLC but running from it as far as she could.

I know that after the fact the MLCer says they felt very guilty throughout.  I get this.  But that's after that fact, looking back.  Like saying I was a rebellious teenager and I made mistakes as a kid, vs that kid in the moment saying they feel truly guilty and understand what they did. 

Just because you feel guilt a few years later, does not mean you experienced guilt back then.   

There's hardly any guilt.  I feel guilty that I hurt this person, so Im going to hurt them again and again???  Im just not buying it.  If anything they feel justified in their actions.

[zartheit]

I believe there are a number of named emotions that all exist within a tightly overlapping space. I'm thinking of guilt, remorse, and regret, at least. I won't attempt to define them but I can imagine someone actively experiencing "guilt" even as they behave in ways that would add to it. Once they have obtained a certain level of emotional maturity their "guilt" might transmute into something more productive which may result in contrition and atonement, or even just ensuring they don't end up in similar situations again.

Maybe the MLC'er does not experience guilt, maybe they do but are unable to recognize it, maybe they do but don't want to and suppress it, maybe something completely different. I don't know. Regardless of the particulars, the external behavior is just as off-putting.

[xyzcf]

I believe that while in crisis, the MLCer compartmentalizes anything that doesn't work for their present life. They believe that they are on the right path to "happiness" and "freedom" and don't experience what a normal person would if they hurt someone they loved, not "feeling" much of anything = Anhedonia: refers to the reduced ability to experience pleasure, and has been studied in different neuropsychiatrie disorders.

"Although it is difficult to disentangle the specific role of anhedonia in major depressive disorder, imaging studies have clearly shown that the severity of anhedonia is correlated, in depressed patients, with a deficit of activity of the ventral striatum (reflecting decreased function of the nucleus accumbens, probably as a primary event) and an excess of activity of ventral region of the prefrontal cortex (concerning an increased function of the VMPFC and the orbitofrontal cortex, probably as a secondary phenomenon)."

If this is of interest, there is more indepth at https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3181880/.

There is something "wrong" with the MLCer's capacity to "feel" anything and the causation has been debated many times...without any clear answer to why. Mermaid did great research into this several years ago on HS.

Like saying I was a rebellious teenager and I made mistakes as a kid, vs that kid in the moment saying they feel truly guilty and understand what they did.

Teenagers do not admit to "wrong doing". What changes a child from a sweet enjoyable boy or girl to a teen that seems to have no boundaries or concern about their families...and then back again as they reach young adulthood and leave much of their risk taking behaviour behind them, is part of their developmental stage of life as per Erik Erickson "Identity vs Confusion."

Not all do and some continue with substance abuse, sexual promiscuity, high risk taking behaviours etc . into adulthood.

We do not know what is going on in the MLCer's head. It is interesting when MLCers come back and give us some insight into their personal journey as well as LBS posters who continue to have a relationship years later with their spouse...the observations are all subjective and as Acorn has coined the phrase "a sample of one" should always be kept in mind.

My question, for I am curious is: what does it matter if they feel guilt or not? Doesn't change much for the LBSer.


I also suggest reflecting on Why's comment and perhaps looking at it differently:

I feel guilty that I hurt this person, so Im going to hurt them again and again???  Im just not buying it. 

So can we detach enough so that their actions don't hurt us? Do we allow ourselves to be hurt by "expecting" that they are going to act in a normal human way...or like the person they once were? For they are not that person anymore.

A technique my therapist taught me was to freeze frame the situation that is causing me distress. Make it smaller, make it less bright, dim the lights, decrease the volume until it becomes something I can manage without being set off kilter. It helped me a lot when I was unable to comprehend...why the heck is he doing what he is doing?

And of course MLC 101...this is not about us and not about our marriage.

[MadLuv]

I believe that while in crisis, the MLCer compartmentalizes anything that doesn't work for their present life. They believe that they are on the right path to "happiness" and "freedom" and don't experience what a normal person would if they hurt someone they loved, not "feeling" much of anything = Anhedonia: refers to the reduced ability to experience pleasure, and has been studied in different neuropsychiatrie disorders

I agree. I do think some depending on how long they have been in the MLC and what type they are clinging vs vanisher shows just how much they are avoiding. My XH was a clinging boomerang as long as I contacted him, but vanishes if I don’t. The last convo we had 8 mths ago when I said I could not be in contact with him anymore he said, I’m sorry. I don’t know what happened to me.  I believe that ! I also know in 2018 when I said he had to open up, get some help or leave, he said, I can’t talk about it!!  I do think  for some their pain is just to immense to address, but I do think at least in my XH case that he knows something is terrible wrong. And a fresh face and family allows him to be who he chooses to be now where thats how they know him, because those from the past can see he isn’t him self

[Biscuit]

Wow.....

I got an apology from my MLCer today - I'm really sorry to have caused you so much upset.

It felt sincere, let's see what happens in the coming months - it's definitely felt like she was trying very hard to make up for the past recently but this is the first time it has been vocalised.

[WHY]

Wow.....

I got an apology from my MLCer today - I'm really sorry to have caused you so much upset.

It felt sincere, let's see what happens in the coming months - it's definitely felt like she was trying very hard to make up for the past recently but this is the first time it has been vocalised.

That's quite the change.  BUT, remember, you're a pro LBS at this point.  You need to see signs of consistent behavior over a long period of time before making any conclusions.  They will continue to run back into the tunnel and go through all the stages again...  So brace yourself.  I think it took Shocksis another 18 months?

But hey, it's something, if not for your own internal closure/peace.  Keep doing what you're doing Biscuit. 

[Biscuit]

You're correct Why - draw zero conclusions - but it was very refreshing and felt heartfelt on her part....

But yeah we all know - rinse and repeat!

[Helpnewc]

Is it about two years Biscuit?

How does it feel? Better or worse.

[Biscuit]

help,

It's 2 years next month. The general trajectory for me has been upwards. The first year was really really tough, but I could see I was making progress even when I was at my lowest ebb.
In the last year it has got a lot easier. I've progressed hugely with my personal growth and healing in this time. But, it's really only possible to see how much in hindsight, as the steps are generally small ones when you're taking them. A bit like trudging through sticky mud for a year - without once looking back. It feels like a right slog, but then when you turn back and look where you were - you've actually walked many many miles.
I'm not sure I would have ever voluntarily stopped drinking and partying whilst I was living with W - so it's good that I've taken a good long hard look at myself and got myself in check.

Do I wish it hadn't happened - yes, definitely.
Am I making the most of what I've currently got - without doubt!

Thanks, B x