[Treasur]

Raining here AGAIN, so me and the cat are feeling rather jaundiced lol…so today I will be a woman of few words 

Perhaps think reconnection rather than reconciliation….
Liars tend to lie some more before they don’t.
Ow tend to be surprisingly sticky.
Trust your gut more than his words or intentions.
Don’t stand anything important on a rug that someone else can pull out from under you.
STDs…and if sex helps you to be as detached as you want to be, or not. Or if it’s bait.
Don’t be scared about chipping the paintwork on a pretty totaled car.
Resist the temptation to audition again for the role of wife and mother that you said yes to years ago.
Do less to get more

[Reinventing]

Agree with everything that Treasur said.

[Nas]

If he runs away again, ie says he can't live here with us and needs to go away for a few weeks to see his parents again (and flee responsibility etc) and he is not with the AP (it would be hard to see her now without anyone noticing bc she lives in a diff country and we call with cameras on) do they ever just escape and avoid without cheating on you? I am trying to prepare myself that he will come and then he will try hard, and then start to pull away after a few weeks, and then eventually tell me i can't do this and tell me he has to leave /escape the drudgery of our lives again. And it will hurt like a biyatch. This idea of back and forth is horrendous, but I am keenly aware that his 'crisis' ls pretty much for sure, not over.

I will just say this word of caution: never assume that they "can't" do something even if it looks hard-to-impossible from the outside. Affairs such as these don't need the two people to be in the same place for long periods of time. Many an LBS has felt a whole new wave of BD-level shock to find out that the MLCer has been in contact with the AP all along. They seem to acquire CIA level skills when it comes to stealthy secrecy.

I don't say that to dash your hopes.  What I would say, rather than basing any decisions on whether he appears to have severed ties with the AP, base them on the consistency of his words and actions, and on yourself, because our bodies will often try really hard to tell us the things we need to know. His words mean nothing alone.

My advice on sex is combined with your comments on how much it'll hurt if he pulls away again or leaves again. Only you can say how much expectation you might put on it, but the more expectation, the more potential for feeling crushed. So if you can take a very honest look at your own needs and expectations, you can go from there. My humble been there sample of one opinion is it would be emotionally safer if you were at a point where you felt that if he left again, it wouldn't be crushing and wouldn't leave you feeling like you compromised yourself.
Speaking of safety, STDs, as others have said, are a real consideration. I will never forget the moment of having to ask my doctor to test for everything, or the face she made, a silent mix of sympathy and recognition.

[amazinglove]

Hi all -I feel a bit bruised this evening - mainly because I feel completely bamboozled by my H. I suspect that's a fairly common sentiment on here.

When my H left his lover Behind in Barcelona, (sounds like a song) he told me he'd ended it and was not going to see her again. He returned to his family (overseas) and made plans to come back to our family in California. He was attentive, kind, affectionate (on text and on camera calls), checked in every day etc .He said he wanted to come back and rebuild and restore our family. He realised he couldn't live without me or the kids etc etc. And I knew he was still in his MLC and at the same time, I was cautiously optimistic that this might lead to a slow but steady journey towards reconciliation. He arrives back here April 14th and he says he will stay with us until we ALL go on summer vacation back to his country in July. That is a lot of time for him - I realised he's only been here 6 weeks in the past 6 months.

For the past 4 days, I'd noted that he was less responsive, stopped writing 'i love you' after good night, didn't call for a day, then stopped saying good night all together. When I typed, " I love you " he wrote "I love you all." It felt off. So today I asked him on a call - he called my daughter's phone not mine - what was going on? I asked him if he was still totally committed to coming back here and rebuilding. He paused. It felt like a long pause. He said, well my feelings have changed. I have changed. I am not the same man I was when i was there. I was living for you, every decision I made was with you in mind (bear in mind he did not mention our two children 7 and 10 at any stage in this conversation) and now I am going to live for myself. I like my freedom. I am coming back on the 14th but i will return here again when I need to and it will be my decision to do so."

When i asked him directly did you in fact, end it with your AP, his reply 'pretty much yes, I did.' Are you in contact with your AP? "not so much, no."

When i said, well that's not a very reassuring reply he said, well i haven't forgotten it. i am thinking about it now, i haven't forgotten it.
When I asked him what his feelings were for me, he said, "I love you as my wife, 100 percent. I love and I always will." I think this is a new variation on ILYBINILWY! I mean, does he love someone else like a mistress? I think so.

All that to say, my hopes are in tatters. I feared this might be a touch and go - and now it looks like it's not even a 'touch!"
I know you wll say he is cycling, and that, given I am not quite even a year into this - it is to be expected - but it is still so painful to look at the face of the man I loved so well for so long and see those dead, shark eyes back today. It was clear he had disassociated again. I feel like I am back to square one. And he was monstering a little bit too. (ie 'you are stresesd about everything,' etc)
He is staying here April 14th. He can sleep in the kids' room. I can possibly go away for some of it and he will def need to leave before July - i doubt he will be willing to stay that long anyway. He just runs and runs.
You know, when he was talking to me, he was sitting at his kitchen table from his childhood home and his mom was cooking dinner for him, behind him (she doesnt speak English so she couldn't understand the convo) and he said "i feel comfortable here. I like my freedom." and I thougth, well no wonder, you pathetic, smarmy man-child. Meanwhile I am surrounded by the beautiful chaos, noise, tears and laughter of this family we created together, that one that he apparently finds so simple to relinquish.
I don't want to say I'm crushed, but today was a dark day for me. Is it bad that I want to extricate myself from this 'partnership' as soon as possible? I know that divorce won't change how hard this is in many ways, but I think this limbo state of being tied to him, expectations that he would act like a loving and faithful husband and near constant disappointment must be worse than that brutal clarity.

My heart is so hurt. It was the hope that hurt.

[Treasur]

I’m so sorry and we know that it hurts. Hope can be a double-edged sword sometimes. You doubtless know from reading other stories here that this is a common situation for LBS to find themselves in, particularly in the first couple of years. You did nothing wrong. He’s just in pretty much the same place he was before. Nothing really has changed except you expected something better. But that can feel rather crushing and disheartening or as if you made some kind of mistake. You didn’t. Nothing substantial has changed. And it is as it is even if that sucks like a big sucky Dr McSuckface of Suckland  It’s a humbling thing to realise that, no matter how smart and grown up we are, sometimes we humans learn much the same way toddlers do lol…by falling over, by eating something yucky, by getting our fingers caught in the door. 

What I find myself seeing in what you wrote - and wondering about - is why you are allowing him to define when he comes and goes to your home and in a way that evidently suits him? You don’t control his travel plans, of course, but you do have some control over the door to your own home. And I’m assuming you are no longer the airport taxi service either. You have options, particularly tbh as you are the main income earner and are not dependent on him to keep a roof over your family’s heads.

Why would it not be ok to tell him to make arrangements to stay elsewhere for his visit and just come over to pick up the kids for his visitation time with them? Bc right now that’s a lot of cake he’s eating - and doubtless his mother is feeding him lol - and it sounds as if that is giving him quite a lot of power and control over your life and your home.

I’m not suggesting he would like it much if you say No…or indeed that it might not come with some practical disadvantages….but I am saying that you have other choices beyond just fitting around what he wants and waiting for his next departure…..whether to Basic in Barcelona or the Moscow Mule or Louche in London or elsewhere  After all, you already have data from his track record of past ‘plans’ and promises to the kids that he comes and goes seemingly as he pleases, and that having him back in the home is not a easy delightful walk in the park. And of course if you want to use the time he is there to look after the kids for your own travel plans, you could always arrange for him to take them to his airbandb while you are away or move in for a few days temporarily while you are away (assuming you are confident that he would move out again lol) it does seem to me to be a rather basic conclusion that if you leave your family to run off in search of a magic happy elsewhere, you are not entitled to free bed and board in the family home just bc it suits you  If he honestly wants to see his kids or is concerned about them, even if he honestly wants to do some basic repair with you beyond word salad, he can figure it out and if you ever want a healthy adult husband, you should let him do just that imho. Time to let him clean up his own mess in his own aisle perhaps?

Is there some bit of your head perhaps…or a picture you have painted for your kids…that he has not actually left but is on a kind of well earned temporary vacation from family life, a hall pass from his adult responsibilities or urgently needed elsewhere bc of family reasons beyond his wishes? Bc that’s not the truth of things really or how healthy adult life works, is it?

Is there a bit of avoidance going on for you of calling a quacking duck a duck bc perhaps you really don’t want to see a duck or call it a duck to your kids? Bc the duck is awful to have to see and naming things out loud can make them more real? And thats normal and understandable if so, but it does rather leave you and the kids in a kind of metaphorical waiting room or as a part-time gig job that fits around other things…it gives him quite a lot of power and centrality doesn’t it?…..very me me….is it almost inadvertently a kind of self-gaslighting that the duck is not really a duck whilst it toddles around preening its’ feathers and quacking very loudly? Sometimes we need to call a duck a duck to develop a decent duck management strategy imho. Or plan on eating duck an l’orange for Easter 

Is that acceptable to you for the next few months of you and your kids’ precious life? What do you think your kids think is going on with this pop up and down father who lives in another country? How do they make sense of it or feel about it? Bc it is evidently acceptable enough to him to do it bc he’s done it before and is planning on doing it again…so it’s a fair operating assumption from your pov. Is there a line in the sand on this for you or are you ok doing this until your youngest is 18 say? Or until/unless you are legally divorced? Or until/unless you have another man/spouse? Or live in a different house or a different place?

I don’t know where that line sits for you or what you get from going along with his current plans. And I’m not telling you where it ‘should’ be or judging you for the reality of wherever it is right now.  But if it isn’t acceptable to you, or the price is too high for the return on investment right now, you don’t have to and it’s ok to say No, Not Now or Not Like This. You have options and you have the legitimate and reasonable right to choose options at the moment that serve you best and prioritise you and your kids. And to change your mind. And to say I don’t know or I’ll need to think about it before saying Yes or No. That’s all.

And if he throws a tantrum? Oh well, what’s he going to do….say you’re horrible, leave you, run off to another country or to his mummy’s kitchen table and have an affair? 

[amazinglove]

I've just read my last post - and altho I felt it was time for an update, I'm still pretty much there in terms of his behavior.

Where I have moved tho, is in my own mind.

I took kids to Bentonville, Arkansas (not sure the state abbreviation for Arkansas is it ARK?I think it's AR,  I don't feel like looking it up and would rather type all of these words). Anyway, highly recommend. Charming and even kind of small town USA bouji if that is possible. They have all these cute restaurants, coffee shops, a stylish hotel, ice cream truck and a fabulous outdoor museum called Crystal Bridges (American art with an AMAZING animal exhibition right now) and outdoor sculptures. I loved it. We had a lot of outdoor fun - playgrounds, fishing, lawnmower tractor riding, etc. it was the first time I've flown alone with kids and taken them on a family vaca without my H. And we had a blast. I found it super hard going at points bc my 7 year old is rambunctious and never stops and my friend has no kids and a beautiful new home - but she was a great sport ab it all and he didn't actually break anything in the end. She is really the best and most supportive friend a person could ask for. I did get tired of being the one parent in charge all the time, but tbh i loved being with them. It was insightful for me to experience that and know that I can do this and make it great.

Secondly, H was attentive while we there, texting or calling every day but since back has been cold again, retreating and I guess in another cycle. What changed for me was this: I have started to see, through small,l I guess you could call them 'micro-aggressions" (altho i dislike the term) clear, unavoidable evidence that he is not willing to do the work that will be necessary to try and fix 'us'. Moreover I don't believe he is capable of it, even if he had the desire to. He is here in just 6 days and I am going to talk to him about next steps for us. This limbo is so hard.

I know lots of you will tell me to slow down and pause before taking action, but I have always been and will always be kind of a mover.  I want off this train and I want no promises left between us. I am going to seek legal advice ab overseas marriages and suggest to him that we divorce in Turkey when I come and bring kids this summer. I want it over with. I know divorce won't heal any of my pain, but I don't want to be constantly let down and asked to leave space in my heart open for him in case he 'comes around'. I need to keep my sanity and health - and the way things are now, it's just not possible if I keep going as I've been. Once we have this chat I suspect he won't stick around and will flee again and that is v much for the best I think. His selfishness is absolutely staggering to me. I find it hard to believe honestly.

I do not know what's next but I am trying to think about the things/people I DO still have hope in, and also allow myself to feel the full force of pulling away. Today there was such awkwardness and formality in his text ab the kids and I normally would have called him and chatted and eased it, but I thought you know what? I can't always fix things, I need to get used to this wall between us, I need to make friends with it, because for a long while now, we both need it to be there as we detach and disentangle our lives.

I have been reading the shut out wife btw and I really do like her (v practical) advice.

all thoughts welcome as ever.

[MadLuv]

I think you have to just make sure you are in a  good enough place to make the decision with no regrets. Divorce and the ending of a marriage and family is just has hard if not harder than the throws of MLC.  Now, with that said, I divorced quickly, but only due to the settlement he was agreeing on and I knew than that He wasn’t thinking clearly and some one had to protect what we could and I was right. Just make sure you have already spoke with an attorney. That you have figured out what you need to get by, but most important that you know you can’t stay int he place you are now and this is the step you need to make. Ask yourself the difficult questions on why you want to force the divorce now. If there is any part that is hoping he will beg you against it then don’t gamble on that. He may, but only to quickly agree the next time or he may jump on it.  Just make sure  you have clearly thought it through.

[xyzcf]

I have started to see, through small,l I guess you could call them 'micro-aggressions" (altho i dislike the term) clear, unavoidable evidence that he is not willing to do the work that will be necessary to try and fix 'us'. Moreover I don't believe he is capable of it, even if he had the desire to

If he is in MLC, then it's not about you, not about your marriage or kids and thus there is no "fixing "us". He is not capable, maybe for a very long time, maybe not ever.

Having said that, you need to do what you must do. His inability to be a husband, the husband you want isn't going to happen right now. Not until his own crisis is well into being resolved which might or might not ever happen.

[Ready2Transform]

FWIW, as painful as divorce was, I felt like it at least put an endpoint to where he could further damage the relationship we'd had before all of this (no matter what the outcome was to be). Taking your power back and making decisions that accept the situation and create as much stability for you and your kids as possible is commendable.

[Treasur]

Taking legal advice should be your first step bc with divorce or legal separation the devil can lie in the detail. And I would be asking about the pros and cons from your PoV about doing so in your own country vs doing so in another country, particularly if you do not speak the language fluently or live there. There can be some significant differences in the law between one country and another.

I would make no commitments at all about visiting his country with the kids this summer as you ‘normally’ do until you have taken legal advice. Please don’t feel bad about changes that have to be made, or that his parents will be upset about not seeing the kids in the same way…your h created this change in all of your circumstances and it isn’t your job to run behind him with a broom tidying up all of the pretty predictable consequences for everyone else, is it? Or to make him care about the damage to anyone else. You can only be responsible for looking after your own life and your kids’ well-being the best you can and let everyone else, including him, deal with their own bit of the fallout the best they can. I am not saying your kids should not see their grandparents; I am saying that, through no fault of yours or theirs, the situation is in flux and this year may not play out in the same shape as previous years.

But you need legal advice pronto to plot a course that does not increase the financial risk further or place primary custody of your children at risk. I suspect that you will find that your home country is more favourable to your interests than your h’s country.