[Helpnewc]

A new thread. Who would have thought it.
A long time from May 2022 and how my life has changed. From thinking I had a great relationship to discovering it was a fiction.

After all this time, I don’t regret hanging in for my family. I do regret getting cranky at times and expressing my frustration.

Christmas has exploded as I expected. We will just get through it. The monster is strong.

I feel relief at the financial settlement. I may have paid a little too much but it lets me know I have somewhere to live and start moving forward.

I think I will get there on the kids too. I am just sad for them. But this is not my choice.

Previous Thread is here: https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=12108 - UM

[Helpnewc]

I had the girls last night. I was told be home by 4 so she could go out. I was and then she did not go out till 6. I left work drinks early to do the right thing but I don’t matter at all.

She wants to tell the kids after Christmas. I am ok with that. She then wants to total the 6 and 8 night split with me leaving the house. I can live with that too I guess.

The hatred of me is hard to accept. It is extraordinary.

One foot in front of the other

[Biscuit]

Help,

I was bamboozleed by w and a therapy session to agree to saying to the kids that mum and dad have fallen out of love etc. i wish I hadn’t agreed to that. The therapist had insisted we show an united front for the kids but it prevented W from owning her $h!te. The truth was that  their mum wanted to leave us behind and thought she was entitled to do so and share the blame with me. I wish id known more about MLC at that time. Let the mkcer take responsibility for their $h!te, they are the one leaving and they should take the flak

[Helpnewc]

Biscuit,

I won’t agree to that. I still love her.

Just got to get through it

[Treasur]

She then wants to total the 6 and 8 night split with me leaving the house. I can live with that too I guess.

What does that mean? Sorry, but not sure I understand.

[Helpnewc]

Hi Treasure,

Just custody of the kids.

I have got it up from me having the 4 nights a fortnight to 6 nights.

It will be very tough on them. They are bonded to their mother.

[lost88]

Yeah - when we told our kids that we were “having problems” my W wanted to use those words. I didn’t agree and said why not tell them the truth? That your having problems and you want to sleep in other room and eventually separate. She said you just want me to be the bad guy … I said no - I just don’t want to lie to our kids!  They escape and avoid at all costs!

[Treasur]

Hi Treasure,

Just custody of the kids.

I have got it up from me having the 4 nights a fortnight to 6 nights.

It will be very tough on them. They are bonded to their mother.

Ok, I get it. Sorry, can’t remember what stage all the legal stuff is at and if you are living separately now? Where do things stand with all the practical and legal stuff of old life vs new one for you? And what are you doing to take as good and gentle care of yourself as you can? Bc this s$it is hard, right?

There’s a tone in your messages that sometimes sounds as if loving her to you equates to just sucking up whatever she wants? A bit?  Or perhaps as if you feel like you have got no more stuffing left in you? I hope you know that no amount of stoic sucking up will nice her back, right? And that your girls may have a close bond with her but daddys matter a great deal in how daughters evolve into young women too. It’s not an either/or even if your wife is trying to make it so. So, glad you pushed back on the days…but you are at the hardest bit of this right now bc you’re grieving and your losses are big. It will get easier, you will find a different way to keep some of what you treasure but this time is hard. But this time too shall pass, my friend, it’s how life works….sometimes our job is to just keep going until we get to the other side of the storm. And that’s good enough.

On the ‘what to tell the kids’ thing from the PoV of a non parent? I think some high level age appropriate version of the truth matters. Not to punish her, but to respect your kids normal need to know what is real, to avoid gaslighting them essentially bc even small humans know when something big is going on. Accept that you can’t control what/if your wife says. Tell your little ones some simple version of ‘sometimes people decide that they want a different kind of life and when we care about them, we have to try to respect that even if it isn’t what we want….mummy has decided that she doesn’t want to be married to daddy anymore and that means some things are going to change in how we live. But what will never change is that I’m your dad and I love you and I will do everything I can to make sure you are both ok and that I will be ok too’. Then listen if they have questions, in the moment or later, and try to answer them as simply and honestly as you can without commenting on your wife’s thoughts or feelings at all. It is ok to say I don’t know, that might be something you’ll have to ask mummy. Give examples from their own life if you have them to hand….perhaps friends of theirs from school whose parents are divorced but are ok, or how you make new friends when you change school even though you can be afraid that you won’t, examples basically of how life can still be ok even when things change. And above all that they did nothing wrong and that it’s ok for them to carry on loving both mummy and daddy just as they always have.

Your wife will have to find her own way of doing the same….thats sadly a practical consequence of her choices and how real life works, and you can’t protect her or them from that. I’m so sorry though - it’s a particularly bitter LBS pill to want to sweeten something that was never your choice and knowing that it is going to change your kid’s lives.

[Trustandlove]

my kids were small, just a little bit older than yours, when all this happened, and I like how treasur phrases it --  something along those lines was what I was also advised.  I never did the "mummy and daddy don't want to be together any more" thing, they always knew, age-appropriately, that it was his decision. 

The way treasur phrases it is good, IMO, as it states the truth without "pointing the finger". 

[Helpnewc]

Thank you all.

I am no longer trying to love her back as that does not work. I M just trying to make good decisions for the girls and me.

I think we agreed on a basic mum does not want to be married to dad anymore, it is NOT your fault and we love you.

I am working hard on letting go of the past and on he to build a new life. It will take time but I will.

Green is my edit - just to clarify/correct what I expect was a typo. - UM

[FaithWalker]

Thinking of you on this day after Christmas.  It's hard being in the trenches. 

[Helpnewc]

Thank you.
It was very hard.
I still can’t quite get my head around where my wife went.
But she is gone.

[Evermore]

Thank you.
It was very hard.
I still can’t quite get my head around where my wife went.
But she is gone.

It is very hard. I’m not sure that WTF WTF WTAF?! feeling ever goes away completely (it still hasn’t for me). It does seem to recede as the years go by though (thank goodness). I think you will also have had a very-weird-weather-wise Christmas over there on the east coast as we did here in SA. It made it a very odd Christmas all round. But I still managed to enjoy the day. You will get through. It will get easier.

[Helpnewc]

Thank you Evermore,

It is the strangest experience of my life. Sure I made mistakes but no one deserves this.

[Helpnewc]

Today I had the girls. She is meant to give me space to build my skills with them for when she leaves. But she can’t stay away. I get about 2 hours then she comes back. I just do my best.

Sometimes you do wonder if you were that bad and think maybe your partner is right to do this. But then you think of the damage that is being done and that you could have worked through to.

I asked for another chance as I have done my work. But apparently I had been given so many that now I can’t have one. The petulance of it is astounding. The rage that always simmers.

The lack of rationality is astounding. I just accept the decision but she finds it so hard to face the consequences. That is not my doing.

I just continue to exist. And live a little from time to time.

I only make good decisions for the girls and myself,

[Treasur]

Today I had the girls. She is meant to give me space to build my skills with them for when she leaves. But she can’t stay away. I get about 2 hours then she comes back. I just do my best.

I think your wife is trying to con you here, my friend, please don’t buy what she is selling. Custody of your own children (unless you have a history of harming them, and I’m assuming this isn’t so) is not based on a test with her as the judge of your ‘skills’. Bc of course it suits her if you believe that. And she will continue to act that way regardless of any legal agreement if you give her an inch on it so time with your children will become some endless job interview.
So don’t.
Not an inch.
You have rights as well as obligations as a parent. Please talk to your lawyer about this. I would encourage you to be more assertive about this now bc it won’t get easier to change it when you are living separately. Being a decent parent is also about doing what you can to fight for being an equal coparent imho.

When will you actually be living in two separate homes? What are your plans for where you will be living?
Why, out of interest, are you not pushing for 50/50 custody?
What is the legal status of the divorce agreements currently?
What ‘skills’ do you think you need, if any? And where might you go to learn them from someone other than your wife lol?

I can see that being under the same roof makes ‘custody’ time messy. She should be elsewhere bc it isn’t her time with them but yours, not bc of your skill as a parent, but I can see that it could be messy in practice. My only suggestion in the short term is that you take the kids out more when it is ‘your’ time with them or go to a family members house if possible. And be clear eyed about how much childcare you are actually doing when your wife is out gallivanting.

[Helpnewc]

Thanks Treasur,

I fell into the trap of working too hard and making a lot of dough so my wife could be there for the kids. They were fed early in the evening and they were often in bed when I got home. They are very close to their mum because of this.

I have been rebuilding with my eldest as she and it roughest. I was not around and she is very angry. Some of that fed by mum.

The reality is that I have a big job and I need to keep it to recover for the financial calamity of the rupture. I also know that 50/50 will be too hard for the girls which is why I have compromised with 60/40.

I am doing a lot better as a parent. I have done a couple of parenting courses and worked really hard with the girls. I understand them better now. They are just a tightly knit group due to my absence.

We have done the financial settlement and once I pay her the money she will buy a house. It will be harder initially for the girls but then it will be easier. They are just incredibly close due to the decisions we made as a couple.

Thanks for your thoughts. They are valuable,

[Treasur]

Ok, that helps us understand where you are at.

It isn’t a ‘trap’ of course when you are a family team, is it? Just a division of contributions. But perhaps your wife set up the story early on that it somehow made her the ‘real’ parent and over time perhaps you believed it too.

Big life-altering changes force all of us to look again at old assumptions, my friend. The change in the shape of your family gives you the chance to figure out what your new working assumptions will be about being a parent. What matters most is that they are your assumptions, not your stbxw’s assumptions. And kids can be bonded to two parents in different ways sumultaneously even when parents are together….i loved both of mine but I did different things in time with my mum than time with my dad bc they were different kinds of people and that was a good thing.

I wondered if there were work constraints behind the 60/40. How is the pattern of 6 days out of 14 going to work? Will you need back up childcare?
And are you staying in the current house or moving too?
Is your stbxw already looking at houses to buy or, as buying can take a while, is there some merit in her moving to a short-term rental bc I imagine getting divorced while living under the same roof is far from easy?

[Helpnewc]

Hi Treasur,

The 60 40 fits with my work too. I will work 4 days per week and do more 4 days over 5 to pick the girls up from school on two days. I am fortunate that I am well established and well remunerated.

You are right in what you say. We did divide contributions differently and the future will be different.

I think that is what my MLC wife struggles with. She wants to run away. Have the same financial support and not lose time with the kids. Pesky consequences.

I am thinking of maybe getting a au pair but that’s for down the road.

[Helpnewc]

They are so irrational.

Somehow I am meant to magic up refinancing the house with an offer conveyed a couple of weeks before Christmas over Christmas.

And her lawyer has overcharged her so she won’t speak to them to explain it. I was just courteous and said I am going as fast as I can.

[Helpnewc]

The reality is we were never going to get through Christmas without a blow up. Sadly, New Year’s Eve was it. I feel sad that we could not have one last New Year’s Eve together.

But she has agreed to go to her parents on 12 January. Apparently we never had a marriage or a partnership. I must have missed something.

It will be hard without the girls but it is progress. I have done my best. I am sorry I did tell her get f&@ked but that is the worst I have done.

[Reinventing]

H, it is tough. It will get better, but it is so painful until it's better. Hang in there.

[Helpnewc]

Thanks Reinventing,

It has been the longest 19 months of my life. I am hopeful things will improve when she goes although it will be hard with my daughters for a while.

You do start to believe the story they tell when they are here. The level of anger is hard to take.

[Reinventing]

Helpnewc, you might find it helpful to have things you say in your mind each time, repeating it when she rewrites history, blames you, or projects on to you. Just some simple ones that you say as mantras to yourself.

That's not my reality.
I don't own that.
I know that isn't true.

Or if you find the flip side of saying the same things more helpful:

My reality is different.
I am a good, decent person.
My truth is different.

[Helpnewc]

Thanks Reinventing, I do do that.

You just wish that somehow some truth would be seen by the MLCer.

It is such a difficult way to live.

[Reinventing]

One of the most important lessons I learned through this is that you can only control yourself. Second most important lesson is that thoughts and emotions are linked. So talk to yourself in ways that help your emotions, just like you're doing reps in the gym. I was actually relieved to learn this second lesson because I could DO something to lessen the pain, the feelings of worthlessness, etc.  It was my Thor hammer against the garbage I was mistakenly ingesting.

[Helpnewc]

Thanks Reinventing,
Positive self talk is key.
I get it.

[Reinventing]

Yes, and positive includes deflecting with a shield (best), and/or not ingesting garbage. Or, if garbage has been ingested, processing and digesting and passing it where it belongs (trash or sewer). Lol.

[Helpnewc]

It is just very odd. I have done my self work. I have fixed my fixing yet she has this compulsion to run from me at all costs.

It is quite amazing.

[Reinventing]

Even if you turned from a person with purple and pink dots to one that is green with yellow triangles, they will run. And compulsion is a good word.

They are attempting to run from their former selves, in their minds. Their former selves include you, so it's a package deal. To run/change themselves, they are rejecting who they were and that includes you. An innocent bystander. Doesn't make it any easier to live through, but it is actually not about you. It would have happened no matter who they married.

[Baxter1]

Re-

Thank you for the reminder. I struggle at times with the escape avoid concept. It took a while to realize that this is not a marriage problem. On the surface it definitely seems so. We had a good marriage but maybe I wasn’t good enough so she went to the alienator because he was ‘better’.
Thank God for sites like this, and Kenda and Hearts Blessings, it gives some comfort to know that this isn’t something I did/didn’t do that caused this. I wouldn’t have want to carry around the feeling that I caused the downfall in my marriage and destroyed the family, that would be a heavy burden to bear.

[Helpnewc]

Baxter,

It is all so mad. There is no doubt mistakes were made as in all marriage. Resentment is a big part of our story.

I wonder if there ever was a hope. Humans make mistakes. My wife has accrued every wrong that I have done and added them into a mountain.
It does not matter how sorry I am. Or that I have listened.

What I find fascinating is how she is blameless. It is 100 percent me.

It is such a strange experience. I admit I was stupid. But when I listened I took immediate action.

Keep your head down.

Help

[lost88]

I love your statement “it’s all mad.” I feel the same way everytime I wake up and have to process why I’m sleeping alone. I keep trying to show grace knowing it’s hard on everyone even the MLC’er.
I’ve told more friends recently and some are familiar with this lunacy, while others find it hard to believe. For those I tell them, it’s even hard to believe when you’re living it each day.

You mentioned you wondered if there was ever any hope - My W has told me several times she doesn’t want to give me any hope in Reconciliation. It seems from day 1 she’s been set on S and D. I’ve begun to make decisions that assume it’s going that way. I recently informed her of some boundaries that I put in place and kinda went on the offensive. I know some will say that will just push her away, but if that does then so be it. This toxic home life isn’t good for anyone esp me and the kids.

I’m sorry you’re going thru this and it just SUCKS! my situation is a little different where she tells
Me I’ve done nothing wrong and been a good husband and father. She has said she’s put me in the friend zone but her problems are hers and she needs to be selfish and live for herself. The inner voice is too strong to ignore. In a twisted way I almost wish I was getting blamed for things. Of course I would have had to have done them too.

The saddest part is no one wins in this. Most the midlife crisis BS out there (podcasts, articles) is positive with life coaches saying it’s a wonderful time for women to leave their mark and grow. Our MLC’s will find this info and believe what they are doing is right regardless of the collateral damage.
I wish they would all visit here but they are just promoting their business. It’s so sad and until this ever gets a formal diagnosis it won’t change! That’s what I’m most annoyed about lately. I’d love to start a movement so it becomes a recognizable condition and professionals are informed and trained on it. Not saying it would change a lot but there still would be change for the better!

Be well my friend and focus on what we can control.

[WHY]

Re-

Thank you for the reminder. I struggle at times with the escape avoid concept. It took a while to realize that this is not a marriage problem. On the surface it definitely seems so. We had a good marriage but maybe I wasn’t good enough so she went to the alienator because he was ‘better’.
Thank God for sites like this, and Kenda and Hearts Blessings, it gives some comfort to know that this isn’t something I did/didn’t do that caused this. I wouldn’t have want to carry around the feeling that I caused the downfall in my marriage and destroyed the family, that would be a heavy burden to bear.

Think about how many people never find this site or come to understand what happened.  They go through the rest of their lives carrying that blame….  I’m so grateful for finding this community. 

And this isn’t just an echo chamber where we make ourselves feel better. MLC is real.  I met a woman out of the blue one night that went through MLC and she was blown away, I mean absolutely blown away, at how I entered her soul when she told me about it.  She said not even her closest friends understood what I did.

She told me there was no infidelity and I fired back and said yeah right!, let me tell you about limerance….  You should have seen her face.  Her advice was “you just have to let your W go”.  She eventually returned after 3 years after she moved out (not sure how long she was at home), and is happily remarried to her old H. 

She said her awakening occurred when her H met someone else and he started to move on.  He’d been dating and she didn’t care.  But when he met someone real, and I assume enough time had passed for her fog to lift, she snapped and went back home.  I don’t know if her fog lifted because of this other R, or if it was because 3 years had passed.  I’m guessing it was more a function of time (6 months into replay she probably would not have cared). All interesting observations. 

This stuff is very real folks.  I wish more people understood it.  Even with all this knowledge, when I talk about it, friends and family still don’t really get it.  After two years…..   Besides HS, I’m really alone in this thing. 

Thank you HS. 

[HeavenlyFocus]

What I find fascinating is how she is blameless. It is 100 percent me.

It is such a strange experience. I admit I was stupid. But when I listened I took immediate action.

Hi Help,

Haven't posted in a awhile but your post still reasonates with me today as I am 3.5 years since BD.   As I have progressed, the blaming from my XW has stopped.    I think she inherently knows the issues are with her but I try to just let her be with the occasional reinforcement about the consequences being due to her decisions.   I'm just trying to move forward with life while still being supportive from afar.

This stuff is very real folks.  I wish more people understood it.  Even with all this knowledge, when I talk about it, friends and family still don’t really get it.  After two years…..   Besides HS, I’m really alone in this thing. 

Thank you HS. 

Hi Why,   Appreciate the anecdotal story of a former MLCer, and I also too feel alone in this after 3 years.    Only my brother understands as his W went through a MLC but came out of it after 3 years.  It's tough to explain to people what happened so I just have learned to keep it to myself.   The HS community remains my outlet to support me through this craziness.

HF

[mcm64d]

Baxter,

It is all so mad. There is no doubt mistakes were made as in all marriage. Resentment is a big part of our story.

I wonder if there ever was a hope. Humans make mistakes. My wife has accrued every wrong that I have done and added them into a mountain.
It does not matter how sorry I am. Or that I have listened.

What I find fascinating is how she is blameless. It is 100 percent me.

It is such a strange experience. I admit I was stupid. But when I listened I took immediate action.

Keep your head down.

Help

YESSSSSSSS!!!!!!! I went through the accrual and 100% blame also. And I also got that there were no good moments in our marriage.


It hurts at the time and for some time thereafter. But please try to remember those good times. Please try to remind yourself that nothing can be 100% your fault in your marriage. Please try to remember that you are the easiest scapegoat. Please remember you are never going to be perfect.

Please remember time heals all wounds....or as John Lennon said time wounds all heels.......

[Helpnewc]

A tough weekend.

My wife wanted to tell the girls. I asked if we could wait a little as the approval for the refinancing of the house will come through this week and then there will be more certainty.

She is angry that people have sympathy for me. That people say poor Help , he has listened and learned and she won’t forgive me. That is the truth but it does not agree with the it is all your fault narrative.

Her sister is coming up from Melbourne. She has done the same thing to her husband. Cosmetic surgery. All his fault. Exactly the same but with a physical affair and drugs. She wants to tell the kids as their separation will come up. I just that is our story not ours.

While it is hard, I am doing better. I was drinking too much for me, which is not a lot as it helps me sleep. I have laid it off.


She knows I have changed. She just says she does not want to be married. I say ok but I don’t lose my kids just you. Her expectations around parenting arrangements are odd.

I just have to have faith in the legal system. There are no risk factors and it should be 50/50ish. The problem is they get in your head.


And if I did not love her. I am going to try and go back to being a bit emotionally stunted for a while. I think I will need to.


And sometimes I wonder am I mad. Was I that bad? Why won’t she try? Or at least give me a chance? There is nothing rational going on.

[Evermore]

I’m so sorry to hear you had such a tough weekend Help. Well done for recognising that drinking too much isn’t the answer. You are definitely not mad and you sound sad and frustrated but stable.

I’m reluctant to ask you this. You say your W’s sister has done the same to her husband ‘Exactly the same but with a physical affair’. Why are you so certain (ARE you?) that your wife is not having an affair? I’m sorry to bring up this painful possibility. It might help explain some of her behaviours and attitude towards you that’s all.

[Helpnewc]

Hi Evermore,

She had an emotional affair at the beginning of the mess.

She now is generally home all the time and really only goes out with friends I know. The phone is not hidden like it was. I may be wrong but I don’t think there is anyone else.
She is very angry at me. I did let her down. I was not very emotionally connected and I have had to do a lot of work on emotion with my psych.

My wife is not good with forgiveness. She is just so angry that I did not listen before. She is right about that. I just worked and laud my priorities wrong.

I don’t think there is time for an affair. She is either with the girls or at home. Mainly her sister and her spend their time encouraging each other to run.

Anyway, she just equates marriage with male control and basically say because if we stay married I get away with treating her badly in the past. Which I did get wrong at times but not all the time.

Anyway, pretty sure there is no one else. Could be wrong.

Help

[Helpnewc]

I also suspect the other aspect is that as we are somewhat well off she is able to leave, live independently and have no debt.

All I know is she won’t give me another chance as she says she warned me and I did not listen. That is probably true but as soon as I had insight I took action. I was never abusive, not a drinker but just too absent with work.

Basically I had priorities wrong.

[KayDee]

And if I did not love her. I am going to try and go back to being a bit emotionally stunted for a while. I think I will need to.

In my experience, it's better to feel what you feel when you are feeling it (lotta feels in that sentence, huh  ) - It does really hurt, but a necessary part of repairing IMO. You say you were not 'emotionally connected' before and bottling up maybe your defense go-to. Worth considering. Be emotionally connected for you first. Then it will ripple out towards others.

And sometimes I wonder am I mad. Was I that bad? Why won’t she try? Or at least give me a chance? There is nothing rational going on.

I expect every single one of us thinks that Help. If she is having an identity/ML crisis, then this is her journey to take alone. Trying with you will be relevant if this is marriage issue. You want a chance to fix things non? But remember, there's a lot of us fixers here If you believe she is in crisis, ergo this is not about your marriage, then you need to accept that you cannot fix.  Make the changes you want for you, the rest will follow.

[FrenchHusband]

Hi Helpnewc,

Well done regarding the alcohol ! You managing to cut it without help means that you are strong, in good way on the healing path.

A tough weekend.

My wife wanted to tell the girls. I asked if we could wait a little as the approval for the refinancing of the house will come through this week and then there will be more certainty.

what exactly wants she tell the girls ? about the separation and parenting arrangements, the OM or the house arrangements ? Anyway, it is good that you can delay the announcement so that it fits your view.

She is angry that people have sympathy for me. That people say poor Help , he has listened and learned and she won’t forgive me. That is the truth but it does not agree with the it is all your fault narrative.

[...] She knows I have changed. She just says she does not want to be married. I say ok but I don’t lose my kids just you. Her expectations around parenting arrangements are odd.
[...]
And sometimes I wonder am I mad. Was I that bad? Why won’t she try? Or at least give me a chance? There is nothing rational going on.

Yes, your actions not fitting with her narrative makes her angry. I have the same here. But as you say, rational gets out of the house when MLC enters. Your actions are not for her, it's totally for you and all the people that you live with will benefit from them, kids first.

My wife is not good with forgiveness. She is just so angry that I did not listen before. She is right about that.

Same here, I don't know one person that W has forgiven. She never forgave her mother who abandoned her at 12, same goes for many people. And she blames me for having waited 20 years of marriage to change... 

[Helpnewc]

Thanks all,

My wife put everyone first for years. It built to a point of explosion. Everyone but me has been forgiven and reconnected with but I am the one who let her down the most.

I am at peace. I have done my best. I realise there is nothing else I could have done. Yes, I made mistakes before bomb drop and after it but I am human. I have forgiven myself.


Life will be different but ok. You can’t repair with someone who does not want to. And there is also an element that I need to be punished. A constant refrain is that if I came back you have gotten away with it.


The sad thing is that i won’t have another relationship. My two girls will be enough and my friends. It will be a good life but different.


We will tell the girls that she wants to end the marriage in a week or so. I have just said it is up to her as it is her decision. Acceptance and love. That is who I am.

[forthetrees]

You nailed it with your statements that you cannot repair it with someone who does not also want repair and that it will be ok but different. It takes a long time to accept that you may want with all your heart and soul to be at the table to work it out, even waiting or pleading for the other person to come to the table, but that the other party may opt to never come to the table or may drop by and then leave. May it bring you some level of solace knowing that the future will be different but in a way that you have a modicum of control over how it plays out. It is so weird to shift from a "we" perspective to an "I" perspective after so many years of marriage. You will have a new array of choices as well as the responsibility of shouldering the consequences of those choices. I like to think that the hurt that the LBS absorbs becomes transformed into empathy/compassion for others as one goes through the healing process. Maybe that´s just my rationalization for why I had to experience so much pain. You are coming off the lowest of lows and bit by bit you will find yourself in a better place with a knowing that you won´t have to revisit that low of lows.

[readytofixmyselffirst]

Hello,

Life will be different but ok. You can’t repair with someone who does not want to. And there is also an element that I need to be punished. A constant refrain is that if I came back you have gotten away with it.

I know I have posted this in the past, but in the beginning of my journey, I went through the same process of self-blame and going over every aspect of the marriage where I could have done better, all for naught. It only drained me emotionally and I ignored the glaring fact that all of this really had little to do with me or our marriage. Just like you, I felt if I fixed me, she would come around.
Didn't happen and she filed for divorce three years later.

I don't know your Soon-to-be-ex-w (Stbxw), but I see some glaring red flags all speak of MLC not terrible husband.

I also suspect the other aspect is that as we are somewhat well off she is able to leave, live independently and have no debt.

All I know is she won’t give me another chance as she says she warned me and I did not listen. That is probably true but as soon as I had insight I took action. I was never abusive, not a drinker but just too absent with work.

Basically I had priorities wrong.

I don't know your schedule and I don't know your life. However, it seems to me that throughout the years, you have been a very good provider for the family. I did the same for my family and I worked hard so that my ex could stay home and take care of the girls. As a young teacher, I worked in the classroom, had a side job where I worked on Saturdays, and during my off-track time, I substitute taught. I then went back to school, I got my MA in administration and became a vice principal, and then a principal.

A lot of work and it gave her the opportunity to stay and be with the children. Did I have some bad moments? Sure, but I wasn't an ogre either. My efforts helped create a warm and loving home for my family.  Then during the crisis, my ex tells me that I wouldn't let her work. Really??? My wife's viewpoint was that I went and put in eleven and twelve hour days because it was a lot of fun. When she left me and got a job, she was all happiness. Tens years later, work isn't fun, it's a grind.

Don't let her rewrite history to justify her decisions. Her crisis and her journey are all on her own. The big difference I see between you and I is how fast your STBXW has moved compared to mine. In fact my ex was content to let me stay in purgatory forever and was not going to change at all. It was tough, but she then managed to squeeze out all positive feelings I had for her by the time she filed. When she filed, I was emotionally detached and saw the divorce as what a divorce is- separation of assets. It is all business and you have to take your feelings for her out of this completely. Don't let your feelings of being responsible for the end of the marriage make you want to overcompensate by being the nice guy during the proceedings. Get legal advice and stick to your guns.  This is going to be very hard for you to do, but it will mean a lot for you and your life in the future. Remember, I can't fix this.

The sad thing is that i won’t have another relationship. My two girls will be enough and my friends. It will be a good life but different.

Before I start, you are in no place to be in any relationship with anybody. You need to take time to heal and recover from the past few months. Take the time to be good to yourself and make your girls the priority.

However, I don't want you to limit your outcomes. Apathy is when you don't care about any outcome; detachment is when you are open to any outcome. Now, I could be wrong, but right now, you are taking a lot of your STBXW's statements to heart and some of your thinking is not "I don't want another relationship" but "I don't deserve another relationship."  Don't punish yourself over the comments made by an MLCer. 

Be good to yourself and have a great day,

(((Ready)))

[Helpnewc]

Thank you both.

You are both right. I am aware that the only way is up which does help.

The irony that I will have more time with my girls when we divorce is a sad one but that is not my doing.

Thank you

[Helpnewc]

I knew this would be a tough week and it was.

The hard part is the lies. My daughter’s cousins were up from Melbourne so I knew I would not see much of them. I was promised Wednesday and Thursday night but they stayed at my former in laws.

It was the bait and switch that hurts. I am trying to frame it as preparing for being apart from them.

The lack of empathy is extraordinary. It is the bit I struggle with most. Where did it go.

[lost88]

Yeah, I’ve experienced the complete personality changes as well. Empathy was something my wife always had for everyone and now she has absolutely zero. It truly is hard to imagine someone can change so quickly especially at the person they’re closest width. There is no fighting it, rationalization doesn’t work, They’re completely out of their minds. Chasing things they don’t even know they want and running from things that eventually they’re going to miss. Your earlier point the biggest issue is the continuing lying about everything. They lie about things that aren’t even important. For a while, I wanted to believe her … but now I just believe it’s a lie ! Lol

The support you will find here will help but the pain train is going to run for quite some time. We all have to decide whether we get off it or not.

[Helpnewc]

I am on day 3 of a holiday away with my daughters.

It is going ok but they miss their mum. So do I. It was better when we were all together but there is nothing I can do.

My wife is indicated she will move out to her mums when we return. It will be hard but it will be forward movement.

It is just so difficult. I nearly 2 years and I still can’t quite believe it.

[xyzcf]

The loss is a great one Helpnewc. This is not what we want, for us or for our families. I could not wrap my head around how long this hurt...every day. Yet we can look back and see that we are "better" than last week, last month, last year.

A holiday with your daughters but without your wife is a very different experience than when the family was intact. Good for you to have the courage to go away with them. Because sometimes, we have to deal with the hurt anyway...so enjoying time with them is the bright side.

You already know...you cannot change what is. Our spouses have made their decision and they cannot see any other way..and so, we are left to pick up the
 pieces of our lives..and we do but it's a hard thing to measure how we are doing until a long time later.

Working through this grief is essential in the long run.

I am sorry..but as you know..there is nothing that we can do to change any of this other than our own actions.

[Helpnewc]

Thanks Xy,

It is just hard. You can’t change someone’s view of you. You can’t make them remember the good when their brain desperately only wants to remember the bad to justify running.

20 months. 3 mistakes when I was stressed and swore at her. That is all that is remembered. Acres of space but no space. It really is a situation where there is absolutely nothing you can do.

But yet I love her. How I wish I did not.

[Helpnewc]

Evermore may be right.

Someone saw her out drinking with a bloke. I have not snooped but it fits.

I am pleased I have not gone pain shopping although it was tempting.

[Imgood]

But yet I love her. How I wish I did not.

You know you really love someone when you can’t hate them for breaking your heart.

^^^This popped up on my social media feed this evening. So true!

[UrsaMajor]

But yet I love her. How I wish I did not.

You know you really love someone when you can’t hate them for breaking your heart.

^^^This popped up on my social media feed this evening. So true!

The opposite of love is NOT hate.... the opposite of love is total indifference....

[FrenchHusband]

The opposite of love is NOT hate.... the opposite of love is total indifference....

Totally agree with that statement. And I will add that detachment is not indifference. I will not speak about W but about my children, especially the oldest ones D16 (soon D17) and D14 (soon D15). I love them, I care for them, I support them. I try to be a "good enough father" (reference to Winnicott).
Thanks to W's MLC, I have worked on myself and detached also from my daughters. When they are in teenage crisis (light monstering), I keep my balance and
I continue to answer with calm and assertivity. I see they are down sometimes and they want time and space (in their room, no greetings) -> I give them time and space and I do my activities. When they are up and we spend time together, we can have very good moments.
Before BD I was more affected when they monstered, and I over reacted. I could not face D16 and D14 when they were together united against me (other parents may understand what I mean  ). Now I can handle very well this kind of situation.

I know they will leave our home, D16 will do that in September and it is very fine for me. The more and more they take their own decisions : D16 could participate to African championships next month in her sport and could be qualified to the Olympic Games ; on the other hand she is preparing the high school final exam and very selective examination for a famous university and she is training very hard in her sport and doing regional competitions and stages. I let her decide alone, told her that I will support her choice whatever it is. And she chose not to participate to the African Championship (wise decision from my POV). I want them to be responsible with their choices, they are becoming adults.

I feel detached, proud and loving. Not indifferent.

[Helpnewc]

Yes French, calm is what I have learned. I used to be very tense and anxious.

I like the better me.

[Evermore]

Evermore may be right.

Someone saw her out drinking with a bloke. I have not snooped but it fits.

I am pleased I have not gone pain shopping although it was tempting.

I’m really sorry Help if it is the case that there is an OM. It does fit though and explains a lot of her irrational behaviour. Well… it doesn’t explain explain it, because it’s still a crazy thing to blame someone else when you are the one f’ing up. But it is often what people having affairs do. 

[AlvinTheMaker]

Hi helpnewc,

The beginning of change is always hard, but life will get easier and better.

Some wise person taught me what you have is present moment, you can use it to shape a better tomorrow. It is all about daily small changes, adding them one after another.  It is a slow and long process, but you are doing good.

Keep going.

But yet I love her. How I wish I did not.

Human heart is funny in a way, that it fits so many things. You can love/hate a person without reciprocation. And you can love/hate many at same time. Sometimes it hurts, sometimes it heals.

I would be far more worried if you did not feel love, but hate or even indifference. Don't run away the feeling, just let it find it's own way to become part of future you.

Alvin.

[Helpnewc]

I confronted her about the OM. To her credit she admitted she is spending time with “someone” and he is a good man and a devoted father.

I explained this was one of my boundaries and how hurt I was that I found out through local gossip. She said everyone knows we are separated and she had done nothing wrong. I said she agreed to tell me.

She has agreed to move to her parents on Saturday. I have gone to an Airbnb for a week as I just cannot be in the house with her knowing I was caring for our kids when she was dating someone.

I am deeply hurt that her parents knew and did not tell me. But I do get they have to support her.

It is so hard that some random gets a go but i don’t. Nothing I can do.

I do regret staying as long as I have but I hope this is a path to healing.

[Reinventing]

Helpnewc,

This is one of the hardest parts of what the LBS faces. Knowing that is a possibility is one thing, but knowing that it is actually happening is another thing.

As far as the OM being a good man and devoted father, please remember that a good man and devoted father doesn't have a relationship with a woman who is married. Also know that this was likely going on for awhile. She will try and portray it as more recent.

Nothing we can say can take away your pain, unfortunately. Try and find things that give your mind a momentary break and do more of those.

Just know that you are not alone in feeling this crushing pain and that you will survive.

[UrsaMajor]

I confronted her about the OM. To her credit she admitted she is spending time with “someone” and he is a good man and a devoted father.

She didn't have a lot of options did she considering that she got caught with her hand in the cookie jar? Reinvented has it spot on correct though... a "good man and devoted father" isn't about to go around dating a married woman.

I explained this was one of my boundaries and how hurt I was that I found out through local gossip. She said everyone knows we are separated and she had done nothing wrong. I said she agreed to tell me.

This is just her own way of justifying the affair which, as Reinventing also noted, has likely been going on for a while now.... Just now she got caught so the cards are on the table.

She has agreed to move to her parents on Saturday. I have gone to an Airbnb for a week as I just cannot be in the house with her knowing I was caring for our kids when she was dating someone.

Here is something that I have to say I disagree with you on. She wants out, SHE should have gone to the Airbnb NOT you.....

I am deeply hurt that her parents knew and did not tell me. But I do get they have to support her.

No, they do not HAVE to. No one is putting a gun to their head and telling them they have to enable her behaviour. This is also their choice. They may feel as if they have no choice though in order to not be put with you into the camp of the "enemy." Unfortunately, it seems that they don't have sufficient moral fortitude to call a spade a spade..... or they have been so thoroughly convinced by her lies that they believe her.... or they have their heads init eh sand and choose not to see reality.

It is so hard that some random gets a go but i don’t. Nothing I can do.

Sorry to be so brutally blunt here but he's not some random schmuck - he is a predator that has found some vulnerable woman that he can get some off of for a while. Once the novelty wears off and she becomes more interested in an LTR/pressing for a commitment of some sort, he'll likely move on.  This is also a pattern we've seen here.... Bottom line though, he is a bottom-feeder picking off the low-hanging fruit.... We don't call them an "Affair Down" for nothing.

I do regret staying as long as I have but I hope this is a path to healing.

This is one step on the path to healing.....

[Helpnewc]

Thanks all. I agree, bottom feeder.
And I also agree about her parents. They supported me until they got monstered out of it and she wore them out.
I don’t believe anything she says about timeline. She lies and lies but there is no point challenging the narrative.
I am enjoying my week alone. I just cannot be in the house with her right now.

And I don’t regret the snoop that discovered no pjs in her over night bag. It has moved me forward.

[Helpnewc]

The lies, the selfishness and the unkindness is so strange. There is nothing logical going on. There is just emotion and craziness.

I let myself down a bit with a bit of text bombardment yesterday. It may have been closure in a way making it clear that this was her choice and not my fault. In the beginning, I too all the blame but I know that was wrong.

Anyway, we tell the kids on Friday. She is being difficult about parenting orders but I will stick to my proposal. It is just so tiring.

[Helpnewc]

So it is done. I asked to pause the divorce and try but she refused.

We told the girls. She did not stick to what we agreed so I was forced to correct her so they knew mum did not want to be married to dad.

The girls are obviously upset but will be ok. I do wish I had not laboured for 20 months when the ending was inevitable from when she refused to work on the marriage.

Just so sad to see the chaos of her leaving with garbage bags to go to her parents. I tried my best.

At this stage, I get the girls 5 nights a fortnight but hopefully I can get that to 6. She has no money. I have no idea why because I paid for everything. Not my problem.


She took the cat. I pick up a new one tomorrow. The girls will meet her on Wednesday.


I will be lonely but it will be better than living with someone who treats you badly.

[marvin4242]

I am so sorry to read your update. I don’t think anything anyone says can change or capture how you feel. I remember when similar moment came for me a wise person on another forum simply said “all this time you were falling, now you have arrived. Be kind to yourself and find your footing.”

[JohnnyBravo]

The girls are obviously upset but will be ok. I do wish I had not laboured for 20 months when the ending was inevitable from when she refused to work on the marriage.

Sorry to hear about this, Helpnewc, but don't beat yourself up over fighting for what you believe in. We all do the best we can, and you can move forward knowing you did everything you could.

JB

[Standing Strong]

Very sorry to hear this update HNC.......

I hope you are very gentle with yourself for a good long while.

-SS

[Helpnewc]

Thanks all. I fought the fight. You can’t bring the truth back with enablers and poor counselling.

Just going to be the best dad I can be.

[Helpnewc]

It is hard. She does not have my daughters contact me.

It just firms my resolve about access. It is all I can do.

[Helpnewc]

Girls are good.
That is as much contact as I get with my daughters when she has them. It is not easy.

But I had them for two nights this week and it went well. I was upset at school drop off and my oldest daughter said don’t be sad dad we will see you soon.

But 6 days is a long time. I am keeping myself busy. I am also realising that I will have to push for equal custody.


She denies she is angry at me. But everyone observes she is full of rage. There can be no healing without insight into yourself so I just push on.

I did replace the cat and that was wise. Cocoa is very popular with my daughters.

There is just so much pain. The most interesting part is how you get used to it.

[UrsaMajor]

There is just so much pain. The most interesting part is how you get used to it.

It isn't so much "getting used to it" as it is "learning how to deal with it."

[Helpnewc]

I have the girls for four days. It’s going great.

I suspect my wife is dating. It does my head in. I just have to disconnect.

You feel so worthless. And you wish you did not love them. But you do.

Who knew life could be so painful.

But things are great with my kids. Better than I thought.


I will lean into that. But the loneliness. Awful.

[Helpnewc]

So I am getting into the swing of it. I am doing really well as a dad and the girls love coming to my place.

I find the 5 days fortnigbt intolerable. Going from seeing your kids each day to this is tough.

But it has helped me gather strength for the custody fight. I know I need equal time.

I have little contact with my wife. It is much better. She is a robot and unaccountable for her actions. I cannot have someone who treats me so poorly in my life.

[Helpnewc]

Things are going well with my daughters.

I just struggle with the hurt. That she would abandon me and not try at all knocks me around. That she does not remember anything good about our marriage.

I am unable to be in a room with her at present. I feel awful that will impact on my girls but I just can’t do it.

I have heard nothing about the property settlement that settled in December or about the mediation. It is just very odd.

I find only 5 days with my daughters a fortnight very hard. I guess I will also find 7 days hard when I prevail. There is just so much pain.

[Helpnewc]

A couple of days with no contact has helped.

I know I will have to see her again but hopefully I can make sure it is not for a while. I continue to gather strength.

Loneliness is an odd things for me. I have always been self sufficient but but now I feel lonely.

But I miss my kids. Each day. I am seeing that as growth.

But I will never understand what happened. But I simply need to accept it.

[Happylight]

Loneliness is an odd things for me. I have always been self sufficient but but now I feel lonely.

This is something I struggle with as well.  I wonder if it isn’t truly that you need another person, but more that you have to go through this on your own.  Nobody can walk the path for you and few truly understand. 

On another hand, are you doing  anything to connect with some new people?  This is a hard thing for me-in still trying to figure it out. 

[Helpnewc]

Thanks Happy,
I think it is complex. I am lonely for my wife and I am slowly seeing others.

I think I also just have to push through it a bit.

[Helpnewc]

So I continue to struggle. Just the pain of loss. Missing my kids and the person I loved. The idea that she is still in there is gone, I think I held that for so long but a new creature inhabits her.

Letting go of hope has been hard but is useful. It is time to rebuild a life from the reunions and understand this how it is.

Yet is perverse. I have asked for no contact but I miss hearing from her. Sniping at each other makes you think there is something there when there is not.

But mostly there is just pain and lonlieness. For now.

[Nas]

 Sniping at each other makes you think there is something there when there is not.

This is a really good bit of insight for yourself. The urge to hold onto any sense of connection, even if it’s a negative one, is strong, so good for you for choosing to remove yourself from that.

[Reinventing]

For now.

Yes, it won't always feel this way and it will get better.

[Helpnewc]

I continue to struggle on. Less contact with her helps but from time to time there is unnecessary contact. I am trying to redraw boundaries and be consistent.

Yet a little part of you likes the contact even when it is bad for you. I am trying to manage those feelings and make good decisions.

My little one had the runs and I emailed to let her know that she may be off school. She did not get the message because her parents were away and she goes to the boyfriends when they are away so they don’t know.

I got a bit of a serve and a suggestion of an app that would notify her. I said hang in you just said you don’t look at your phone so how would that help. I will ring if there is an emergency.


It is just so crap. How do two people loved each other get to this place. And while the bf is around there is no hope.

So I will just try and make good decisions for me. Get my wisdom teeth out Monday and then get the mediation about the kids done.


How I wish I did not miss her. But I do.


I amazed by those who stand for years, reconnect and survive. It is the worst experience of my life 22 months in.

[Treasur]

got a bit of a serve and a suggestion of an app that would notify her. I said hang in you just said you don’t look at your phone so how would that help. I will ring if there is an emergency.

Good clear boundary on your part. You have an obligation to inform her about certain things, but you’re not obliged to ensure she organises her life so she is in a position to see those notifications. Tells you something though about what kind of parent she is now, regardless of how she was before….most mums I know would feel a bit anxious about not being contactable if their kids weren’t with them. I hope that might also remind you not to buy her BS about how great a mum she is and how lacking you are as a parent, and encourage you to go for every bit of custody the law will allow and you can work with regardless of her opinion.

Having said that, you may want to look at the app and see if using it would have any benefit to you. There are other LBS here with kids who have done so and found that it formalises or limits contact in a way that works for them, and that it can be useful as a quasi legal record while they are going through legal processes that affect things like custody or visitation. Maybe ask your lawyer’s advice on it?

I’m so sorry. It feels surreal and awful for quite a while, I think, even as we press forward. With time, bc we humans are pretty good at adapting as a species, it will feel less so as your ‘new normal’ starts to grow. For some of us, limiting contact helps with that - it certainly did for me. But yes, you are in the weird trenches right now and it’s not a nice place to be.

And a PS…I’d forgotten that you had only recently found out about OM. Do be kind to yourself that this alone creates a bit of a swirl of emotions….both the reality of it and realising that perhaps we were lied to before or chose to believe things that turned out not to be true. Most of us find that stage adds to the suckiness quite a lot….and it’s easy for a while to tell ourselves that we are less than or that our spouse is happy as a lamb, that we are losers and they have won in some way perhaps. Normal to feel that way if you do. But I will also share the pov that someone shared with me about the LBS tortoise and the MLC hare. It takes a couple of years after separation/divorce for both to start really reaping what they have sown….the LBS starts to feel better about their new different life having put a huge effort in to make good choices for themselves and their kids and the MLCer tends to run out of fizz, cash or fantasy as real life (entirely predictable usually) consequences of their own choices start to show up. It’s not always so, but it seems to be how it is more often than not imho….you're just not there yet.

[KayDee]

And to add the obvious - she is blaming you for her own failings (again). My summary of most people in this type of crisis is that they will not take any responsibility. Sometimes, they were like this before, but the non-crisis spouse didn't really 'see' it, often because we are a Merry Band of Fixers (sorry to generalize, other options are available  ). We often did most of the arranging and structural support. I have to sit on my hands to not fall back into that dynamic with my absent H - but I suppose there does come a time where we have to weigh things up in terms of what is best for us - so if the App works for you, why not? As Treasur says.

Yes, it probably is the hardest time of all of our lives. It is truly life altering. But I hope you are starting to see some new lights shining through the gloom. Hope your littl'n is doing well now.

[Helpnewc]

Thank you both.

The app does not work for me at this stage. Email allows me control and  I see messages when I choose to and I am.

Treasur, you are bang on about the feelings about the new person. The knock to your self worth ins extraordinary. I just keep trying to make good decisions.

[Helpnewc]

It is so strange. She does nothing to formalise the divorce.

It is is bizarre.

[Helpnewc]

It is just hard. I am tired. But I am thinking more rationally and less emotionally. It is difficult to understand that someone who once loved you is treating you so poorly. But I am going to try to stop seeking to understand and to just accept.

Things are going well with the girls. We have yet to have our parenting mediation and I need to get that done. We will not settle and I need to get into the queue for proceedings.
I am mentally a lot better. It is hard to realise your wife would rather build a new relationship than repair with you but I am starting to accept it.

I just need to get it done. And then hopefully have very little to do with her.

[MadLuv]

It is just hard. I am tired. But I am thinking more rationally and less emotionally. It is difficult to understand that someone who once loved you is treating you so poorly. But I am going to try to stop seeking to understand and to just accept

 
You will most likely find this to be the case for years to come.  I once described it to feeling like a bug that had been stepped on who’s life didn’t matter. What helped me the most was just accepting that this isn’t who I was married to at all. So, first I would not be happy with who they were now, but that they weren’t fully capable of understanding what they were doing or how they were affecting those who loved them. They are in their own self savior state and for whatever reason we were detrimental to it, because they are unhappy in their current life and we are a part of it, so we became part of the problem.

I am sure you have heard this many times in different ways, but it’s true. There is really nothing you can do, but like you said, accept this is where you are, but you don’t have to accept that who you were married to if in their right mind would be doing this to you.

[Atari25]

How I wish I did not miss her. But I do.

I literally say this about my wife every single day. I sympathize completely.

[Helpnewc]

I feel like I had breakthrough today.
I finally accepted my old life is over and is not coming back. It is hard because I loved it. But now I rebuild a new life.
My lawyer rang me today. He is very good and he just said we have heard nothing about parenting. He said it might be time for the hard way and I said yes. It was how I was feeling and it felt  serendipitous.

I have also realised I am a fool to think she will do anything sensible and I need to get cracking. It will take a year or so to get a hearing so I want to get in the queue.


She continues to manipulate my girls. Getting them to tell her they want less time with me. But that is not how it works.


I have realised I need equal time and will just stick my guns. She has no power over me now.

[Helpnewc]

I am away with my daughters.

The whole thing is off. I am just meant to be happy with her decision and not be sad at what she has chosen for us. It is strange how if any truth is simply ignored.

There is no logic. I am the revisionist. Not her. The consensus of independent observers is that I have been treated terribly but somehow it is my who has treated her terribly.

I am just hopeful that continued minimal contact will assist. I have decided to not go to my daughter’s birthday party and I will call in sick. Violet will be ok and I just can’t pretend.

As a veteran, I can certainly say that all the things on here true. You can’t love them back. It does take a long time and all you can do is make good decisions for yourself.

I wish I had done that sooner but I am a slow learner.

I focus on the good and that is the growth of my relationship with my daughters.

[Helpnewc]

My daughters are seven and 10. My exwife is insisting on a child inclusive mediation despite their young age and how hard they are doing it. She knows they will say they want more time with her and has been chipping away at them.

And then she insists I pay for the whole mediation when it is obviously 50/50. But I am trying to see the positive.

Her ridiculous demands mean that I can simply file in court and get on with it. Given the prospects of settlement at mediation were low given her attitude I am just seeing this as positive.


An incomplent solicitor and a mad client is a bad mix.

[UrsaMajor]

An incompetent solicitor and a mad client is a bad mix.

At least for her.....

As for the custody - 50/50 or no deal.... Same as mediation. She wants the D, she has to pony up her part of it... It's called "consequences."

[FrenchHusband]

My daughters are seven and 10. My exwife is insisting on a child inclusive mediation despite their young age and how hard they are doing it. She knows they will say they want more time with her and has been chipping away at them.

Is she already your XW ? Did I miss something ? Regarding the children, it is funny how our spouses withdraw from their life, fly from them or are not emotionnaly present during the "scheduled common time" AND at the same time they claim they WANT them.
When W is at home with the children, she is almost always phoning or in the room with door closed. Even in the kitchen she closes the door. At the public park after S6's school, she is withdrawn from what other moms tell me. And she wants full custody of S6, she says !

Last week, the girls said to their mom that she is never talking to them and to anybody. She said it is true, and she will make efforts. But after 2 weeks, she continues to do the same !
I am glad I kept my mouth closed.

You know what, Helpnewc ? The best thing you can do at this time (aside from legal topics) is focus on yourself, be healthy and be a stable and balanced parent for your daughters. I am sure your daughters understand more this situation than you imagine. Their words during mediation might be different from what your W (or XW) expects ?

[Helpnewc]

Hi French and Ursa,

We are still married but mentally I have accepted she is no longer my wife. Thinking of her as my ex wife helps with that.

The girls are an anchor for her. She is still a great mum but just considers me the source of all unhappiness. It is classic MLC. Even when I have been deleted from her life, I am still the cause of unhappiness.


I have been having a great week with my girls. My eldest opened up to me and it is plain she blames me. She simply said you are why she left. I can only say to her that she left because she chose to and I am sorry your mum cannot see I have changed as you do.

But I only make good decisions for myself and the girls.

It is plain my ex is crazy. I know men through that around but it is all odd.

[Helpnewc]

I had my daughters for nine days and we had a holiday together. It was great but my eldest had a bad cold and spent a bit of time in bed.

She also started to open up to me and told me how hard it has been on her as she is older and she remembers being a family. She was also angry and told me “she left because of you.” It was hard to hear but I am glad she could tell me. I told her that I loved her and her mum but her mum had chosen to leave. I said it would be ok and that it was not her fault. I said I was glad she could tell me how she was feeling.


The girls ask me if I am ok. They know I am sad but I just tell them I am ok. I am glad I can feel emotions but it is dreadful when the go. Sometimes I wish I could go back to being the bulldozer that I was but it is richer to feel things. I have done the work. One of my staff came back from maternity leave and said you are you but you are different.

I am not who I was. I am a better man and father. I would be a better husband if I was allowed to be but my wife remains determined to see me as an evil controlling monster. I was never that but I was fallible like all humans.

I saw her for the first time in 6 weeks when I returned the girls. She waved at me with her dead eyes. She does not look great. But all I can do is care for myself and my girls.

And how I wish I did not love her.

[Treasur]

What does child inclusive mediation mean? That the kids are in the room with you? Or the mediator meets with them separately and speaks on their behalf like a guardian ad litem?

Your girls are very young and I could see why you might feel concerned about it. On the one hand I suppose it gives them some agency; on the other hand it could leave them with a sense of responsibility for things that they really can’t control or exposed to discussions (and emotions) about things that are well beyond their pay grade as kids.

If your instinct is that it might be a bad thing for your kids, particularly your eldest, can you say no? Or insist on them being evaluated independently by a child therapist beforehand to see if it would be a good idea or not? Bc, as we all know here, MLC folks tend to want what they want bc they want it, but getting divorced means that this is no longer a good enough reason for you to do certain things just bc of that. What does your lawyer say about it?

[Helpnewc]

Hi Treasure,

The girls meet with the practitioner in a neutral location like a park and provide a report at the beginning of the mediation. The reality is my ex has already put them in the middle so I have to trust the practitioner who I am told is very good and fair.

It will be interesting whether it happens. My wife wanted me to pay for the whole thing but it is meant to be split 50/50. I suspect when she realise it will be a $7,000 day with her lawyer included she may chance her mind.

I am well aware that she has been poisoning the well with the girls and that is why she has pushed it. But I am well advised and I just have to trust those who advise me.


It really is just a case if I want this so you do it and her legal case is weak. There is no history of violence or drugs. I work part time and less hours than her. There is no risk factor that should mean it is less than equal time.

But she wants what she wants. She misapprehends that I am happy to go the distance to have time with my girls. And it not about anger, I just love my children.

[Treasur]

Ah, I see, thank you for clarifying that. Yes, I can see why you have decided to trust the practitioner. Ha ha, at least she is going to be more informed, focused on your kids’ feelings and rational than your stbxw. Like you, I wouldn’t be surprised at all if she changes her mind bc of the cost when she realises that you are holding your legal ground on what you are obliged to pay for and what you are not. It’s rather surreal how self-centred these folks become, isn’t it? Even to the point of foolishness.

[forthetrees]

Might be worth looking into "parental alienation."

[Helpnewc]

Hi forthetrees,

I am across that but there is little you can do.

[Helpnewc]

It is so odd.

We spoke for the first time in months. Our dog passed away last night and I wanted to discuss how to speak with the kids. Initially, the would not talk to me as I confess I had told her to f%#k off in a text. I know I should not have but it felt good.

Anyway, when she realised what had happened she kept ringing. And I asked if she could ask her lawyer to cut me some slack. She said it was just paper work and professed to ignorance to some of the behaviour. I asked if the lawyer was not acting in accordance with instructions. It was all a bit cray cray.

I was struck by the fact it seem revelatory that her behaviour was impacting on my well being. She literally did not seem to understand that. She really is completely self absorbed.

Anyway, hopefully I will not have contact for a while.

[Evermore]

I was struck by the fact it seem revelatory that her behaviour was impacting on my well being. She literally did not seem to understand that. She really is completely self absorbed.

I’d guess that because what we do and how we act doesn’t impact them in any way, they assume the same goes for us. Of course I don’t think they actively think about that. As you say they are completely self absorbed. I don’t think they think much about us at all most of the time. And yes, it is very weird.

[Helpnewc]

Yes. I think that is correct evermore

[Helpnewc]

It is so strange to think of your wife having a boyfriend. And to hear from them that you did not love them or care for them when they are alone in that view. It is as though 13 years of love from you did not exist.

And yes, I understand there is blame projection and it is easier to blame someone else for your unhappiness. But all those happy photos and moments were not a lie.

The death of our dog was a rare moment where something pierced through and she seemed genuinely sad. But not sad enough to leave her secret boyfriends home.

I have made the hard decision to not go to my daughter’s 10th birthday. I know I am not strong enough. I decided not to lie to her and explained I just can’t be that close to mum at the moment. They said it is because you love her and want to hug her. I said yes, and they my eldest said have you told her? I said she knows.

But the total destruction of a person and remaking of a story is something to behold. It is interesting how you regain your footing and do realise that while you were not perfect, this explosion is not about you. But there is nothing you can do.


Nearly 2 years in and I still can’t quite believe it. It is just so odd.

[Atari25]

It is so strange to think of your wife having a boyfriend. And to hear from them that you did not love them or care for them when they are alone in that view. It is as though 13 years of love from you did not exist.

And yes, I understand there is blame projection and it is easier to blame someone else for your unhappiness. But all those happy photos and moments were not a lie.

The death of our dog was a rare moment where something pierced through and she seemed genuinely sad. But not sad enough to leave her secret boyfriends home.

I have made the hard decision to not go to my daughter’s 10th birthday. I know I am not strong enough. I decided not to lie to her and explained I just can’t be that close to mum at the moment. They said it is because you love her and want to hug her. I said yes, and they my eldest said have you told her? I said she knows.

But the total destruction of a person and remaking of a story is something to behold. It is interesting how you regain your footing and do realise that while you were not perfect, this explosion is not about you. But there is nothing you can do.


Nearly 2 years in and I still can’t quite believe it. It is just so odd.

I'm only 4 months in since my wife left - I have many many more months of misery and confusion ahead I can see.

My wife has no boyfriend yet but I'm sure she will at some point or she will hook up with one of the dudes at the golf club she works at. She is all about herself and her own satisfaction. I feel for you and fear for myself.

Everything feels like a lie, even when you know it's her re-writing history. It's hurts a lot.

[FrenchHusband]

I was struck by the fact it seem revelatory that her behaviour was impacting on my well being. She literally did not seem to understand that. She really is completely self absorbed.

I’d guess that because what we do and how we act doesn’t impact them in any way, they assume the same goes for us. Of course I don’t think they actively think about that. As you say they are completely self absorbed. I don’t think they think much about us at all most of the time. And yes, it is very weird.

What you write could be written by parents speaking about their teenage children, IMHO. It is so true for our spouses under MLC, yes.