[OldPilot]

new thread


Previous threads

First one
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=10191.0


2nd one
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=10272.0

Third one
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=10298.0

4th thread
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=10581.0

5th thread
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=10761.0

[OldPilot]

I am going to ask that we try to keep this thread to the spirit of previous threads from
Old Timers and not a personal discussion thread.

Lets let the last thread be put away and not continue it or take it to your own personal threads.

If personal discussion posts continue on this thread I will move them to your own personal threads.

Thank you for your cooperation.

[Treasur]

My take on why the Old Timer thread is so useful is bc of the very diversity that perhaps also feeds some of the more heated discussions. It helps to see that there are different ways through this and different ways to measure success and a good life....a different take on hope perhaps.

I'm not sure I understand all of the underlying soft spots, but I agree that the stresses/challenges of individual situations make for different stories. No pain olympics needed and no LBS medals given lol. But a chance to learn from people who may be tackling different things in a different way in a different situation from our own...so a different perspective that sometimes can give us fresh eyes on our own.

Empathy and kindness does not require us all to be the same. We can still learn from each other and support each other even if our stories are very different.

[nah]

If we can’t discuss our personal situations... why are we here?

I also was reading the last thread with great interest but didn’t have time to post.

We all have similar but unique situations.

I was “lucky” that I had experience with MLC as my father MLC’d my mother and financially abused the crap out of her when I was in my late-twenties. At the time, The Leaver was disgusted with my father and we both agreed to sell our house and move in with my mother so we could pool our resources. Watching my mother go from a financially secure, strong, confident woman to a helpless wreck overnight scared me enough to make choices to protect myself long before I thought that my husband would follow my father’s footsteps.

I often talk about how I filed within days of BD, partly to “shake him up” but also, which I’m not sure if I ever posted this but, from watching what my mother went through, my very first thought was, “I’m going to lose everything”

I immediately went into financial survival mode. Before The Leaver knew what hit him, even though he plotted and planned behind my back. I was protected.

As old timers we know. We see newbies on here every day, most of them don’t care about finances yet, they are worried about losing their love/family. A very real fear but they have no control over that now. They do, however, have control over getting a lawyer ASAP and protecting their assets.

As old timers, isn’t that what we should emphasize day one?

That sucks, Nas, what happened to you, and I very easily could have been in the same situation if I hadn’t had a front row seat to what happened to my mother 30 years ago.

Some conversations aren’t easy, but I’m grateful to all the courageous LBSers out there willing to share their stories.  We’re here to support in rough times and cheer each other in good times.

I’m grateful to all of you.

[Anjae]

My take on why the Old Timer thread is so useful is bc of the very diversity that perhaps also feeds some of the more heated discussions. It helps to see that there are different ways through this and different ways to measure success and a good life....a different take on hope perhaps.

All that. I don't mind heated discussions. Aren't LBS often told they are comflic avoidants and that their MLCer are comflict avoidants and that conflict avoidance is not a good thing? I see no problem with heated discussion on a discussion thread.

No pain olympics needed and no LBS medals given lol. But a chance to learn from people who may be tackling different things in a different way in a different situation from our own...so a different perspective that sometimes can give us fresh eyes on our own.

Indeed.

Empathy and kindness does not require us all to be the same. We can still learn from each other and support each other even if our stories are very different.

Again, indeed. The idea that empathy and kindness means all of us and all our stories are equal is peculiar. Being aware of each LBS problems, individual situation, etc. in my view allows for better support because we are aware of each person's story, issues, needs.

It is another way of saying, one size does not fit all.


I'm sorry your dad left your mum in such difficult situation, Nah.

If we can’t discuss our personal situations... why are we here?

Go question. Isn' t the Old Timers thread for Old Timers to debate their issues? This is a discussion thread, people discuss.

I often talk about how I filed within days of BD, partly to “shake him up” but also, which I’m not sure if I ever posted this but, from watching what my mother went through, my very first thought was, “I’m going to lose everything”

I don't recall you mentioning it was also connected with what happened to your mum. Thanks for sharing. Makes sense that, after seen what happened to her, you took immediate action. You had a reference and seen first hand how things could be.

Many of us do not have such reference at BD.

As old timers, isn’t that what we should emphasize day one?

But we do, don't we? Or we used to. We always used to tell newbies to financial protect themselves. We advice seeing a lawyer and stressed it did not have to be for divorce, but to know how to protect finances and what to do if divorce come.

One thing I think we tend to forget is that male LBS usually lose half of everything and are paying child support and alimony to their MLCer. Some male LBS end up in a very hard place.

Some conversations aren’t easy, but I’m grateful to all the courageous LBSers out there willing to share their stories.  We’re here to support in rough times and cheer each other in good times.

No they aren't. They are incredible hard. MCL is hard, the awful reality that comes with it is not nice. Hidding it is a disservice to others.
If sharing the less rosy sides of MLC helps one person, it was already worthy.

I’m grateful to all of you.

Thank you. I am grateful for you. We don't always agree, but I like people that speak their mind and aren't afraid of saying things that may be uncomfortable.

I also like people that are far softer than I am and with whom I can learn a number of things. For me, diversity and different ideas/opinions is important.

[Tyks]

I am very grateful to the old timers for telling me right from the get go to protect finances. I got a very good SA while he felt guilty and he walked away with pretty much nothing.  Then he came back to me 8 months after and wanted me to give him more money to buy a condo. Nope. I later found out he was planning to buy with ow. Good thing I said nope!

Thank you to old timers for that. That was the best piece of advice ever !!

[Thunder]

I guess I have to say I respectably disagree with what you said Anjae, and some of what Nah said.
I'm not sure at this point if this should even be a discussion thread.

I don't feel this should a thread to debate issues, but to catch up on people who have not been here for a long.  See how they are doing.

Maybe what we need a new Icon for Debate Issues and this should just be a Story thread for Old Timers .

To me this thread was for Old Timers to come back and update us on what has gone on with them over the years and to tell their stories.  I kind of agree with OP.  Maybe debating issues don't belong here but on your own threat or on a Debate Issues thread.

I was kind of saddened this thread took the turn it did.  Maybe that's just me, I loved hearing from long time LBS's and how their lives was going.

What do you think OP/RCR...maybe a Debate Issues icon?  Where any issue can be debated.

[Anjae]

Thunder, this thread has a discussion icon.

We have a general discussion thread. No one uses it.

Using our personal threads does not allow for this type of discussion flow.

We are also updating on our situation. Nas did it, I did it, etc. We were very clear what our current situation is. Nah shared some very useful info for her past. People read this thread(s). I am not sure they will be reading another discussion thread and, as said above, in our threads it will not have the same impact.

I dare say that there are far more serious issues going on than Old Timers debating issues that are relevant to them. The thread remains open to all of us Old Timers that want to update on their situation.

[Thunder]

That's what I was getting at.  Maybe this should not be a discussion thread.  That is where you discuss topics.  What is the topic here?

Old Timers are coming back to tell us their stories.
What is to debate?

Maybe find information on what worked with them, and what didn't.  It's more informational.
None are asking whether what they did was right or wrong.

[xyzcf]

Many Old Timer's do not have their own thread.

I didn't realize this was a "discussion" thread..I thought it was a place to update from time to time if someone wished..never saw it previously as a place to debate issues nor does that seem appropriate.

There were some questions directed at me on the Pave the Way thread and I brought them here to answer because I don't have a thread of my own and did not feel they should continue to be discussed on the Paving the Way thread because they were not relevant with the topic of that thread.

I am not at all happy with what ensued after I brought those questions over and gave them my response.

Lesson learned. Will not comment again.

It was not what I intended when I wanted to respond to Treasur, Nerissa and Anjae to start yet another blow up and create such distress and hurt feelings.

[lawprofessor]

I dare say that there are far more serious issues going on than Old Timers debating issues that are relevant to them.

That's quite an understatement. 

Old timers sharing their stories and views looking back is exactly what begins the discussions.  One says she regrets x or would have done y differently and so begins the conversation.  That's not asking right or wrong.  That's a discussion.  Sharing thoughts and feelings with other old timers for a short period since most of us don't want to have our own threads because we aren't here day in and day out anymore.

It's only when people become reactive and defensive, rather than open minded that things get out of hand. 

Why does this require analysis I wonder.  It may not be some people's cup of tea but I don't recall there being a rule against discussion here is there?

Lp

[Anjae]

I have my own thread. Don't update much, just enough to not get archived. However, even if I do not mind discussion on my own thread, I prefer to debate and discuss on a discussion thread.

The symbol discussion says it all, doesn't it? It is called discussion for a reason, right? 

It may not be some people's cup of tea but I don't recall there being a rule against discussion here is there?

Indeed. I also don't think there is a rule against discussion. Let alone on a discussion thread. Why would a discussion thread exist if not for discussion?

[Thunder]

You're right, LP.  A discussion thread should be for discussing topics.

So should this have been a Discussion thread to start with?  IDK

[Thunder]

Anjae, I agree with you.

[Anjae]

So should this have been a Discussion thread to start with?  IDK

I think it always was. It was also always used for Old Timers to report about themselves, share their stories and debate.

I think it was I that started the first one because someone mentioned in a thread it may be a good idea to have a thread for Old Timers.

Think it is fine the way it is. 

[Nerissa]

On the university course I’m studying we have a weekly ‘group process for 1.5 hours.  12 students and a psychoanalytically trained group facilitator  who can interpret and guide where she feels it might be helpful.  meet and just talk about things that come up for them. Anything and everything came up over time and we have had previously untold stories of rape and abuse; death and loss, alcoholism, thoughts about studies; discussions about family issues ...just anything, big or trivial   and it became hugely meaningful.  One member with a psychiatric doctor for a spouse said she felt we knew more about her than he does.

I wasn’t quite sure I really understood its deeper  purpose and so I asked my own therapist who told me to watch what feelings and reactions arose in me in response to what was said by others and to think about why those feelings were there and why I reacted in the ways I did and what this all meant.  She also told me to try to see the responses I got from others so that I could think about how I am perceived.  It was illuminating.  It was especially illuminating when peers were open about these things with each other.  It could be tricky but we came to trust and support each other in incredibly intimate ways which included challenge.  We are social Creatures and we come to know ourselves In relation to others and we grow and heal in relationship with others

This forum provides a similar experience in some ways.  We learn a great deal of intimate things about each other and everyone in here is doing the best they can  for themselves and for others, I think and our honest and forthright opinions can be a valuable part of Mirror work if we use it that way.  We should be able to stand some challenge and to challenge others and when things trigger us, we know we probably have some thinking and learning to do. 

I usually rather like the more robust stuff because it is where I learn.

[Anjae]

What an interesting point of view, Nerissa. Thank you for sharing.

[Not Applicable]

I am going to make this brief because I said everything I wanted to say in the last thread but several people interpreted my post incorrectly and I want to clear it up. I never said or implied that every LBS's situation is equal (although I also think it is also subjective to argue over who has it worse or better). My point simply was it doesn't really matter one way or another. it shouldn't matter to us as individuals whether we have it better or worse than the next person or it is all equal even, because at the end of the day, when we leave the forum, each of us has to live with the hand we are dealt and nothing else.

Indeed, Anjae is correct in saying these are just facts, but when someone feels compelled to compare their facts with what they think they know about someone else's facts and draw subjective conclusions about their relative situations, it ceases to be about just facts and instead can become a competition in my opinion.

[Nas]

Indeed, Anjae is correct in saying these are just facts, but when someone feels compelled to compare their facts with what they think they know about someone else's facts and draw subjective conclusions about their relative situations, it ceases to be about just facts and instead can become a competition in my opinion.

I didn't see anyone comparing any situation to any other situation.  That's literally all I want to say. 

[forthetrees]

Caught up on the theme. It makes me think of the ACE (adverse childhood event) survey. It´s a checklist of stressors and depending on how many one checks off, it gives an indication of how likely emotional/mental health is affected. Even with that information, it is not a black and white diagnosis scenario because we all come with different levels of resilience, grit and coping strategies. Luckily there are now teachable strategies for increasing resilience- resilience training. Seems that you don´t know you need that until life throws you a curve ball that smacks you in the head.

In regards to the money, I would think that if a 1%er lost 90% of their money, the change in lifestyle would be similarly devastating to as to someone who lives pay check to pay check. It´s more that it is what we are adjusted to and what our expectations are than the actual wealth percentile- assuming that basic food and shelter needs are met. (I look at the situation of the refugees with nothing housed in substandard housing and see that I have it good from many angles.)

But... grief is grief, pain is pain and each person has a different ability in regards to being able to absorb and adapt to new crappy situations. That for me is why it´s not worth comparing. If you don´t know someone´s life trajectory and all of the mini and mega traumas they´ve experienced along the way, then you have no idea if what they are dealing with now is the "last straw" or no biggie. In the end, we´ve all experienced betrayal and the breaking of what was supposed to be a lifelong trust with thee one who had our backs. The consequences of broken trust reverberate for a long, long time.

[Anjae]

It´s a checklist of stressors and depending on how many one checks off, it gives an indication of how likely emotional/mental health is affected.

Stressors affect far more than emotional/mental health, they affect physical one. My physical health suffered, and still suffers. Emotional one is fine so is psychological one.


If the 1% lost 90% of their money they would still be fine, thank you very much. 10% of seveal billions is still a lot of money.

I get the it is proporcional, but there is a huge difference between having to let go of the gigantic mansion and super yatch for a mansion and a smaller boat and have nothing.

Also the health and support resources money can get people in the US and other countries without Universal Health Care/National is very different than if people don't have money.

I take dealing with this mess with a ton of money, great house, nice holidays, etc. any day. You guys can send those my way. 

I think some you don't get it and never will. Unless one day you'll find yourself moneyless, homeless, etc. a thing I would not wish upon my worst enemy if I had one. It does not seem possible to explain. It seems it can only be felt.

Like I once read a well-off musician say, "I had depression, but I had it in £3.5 million home." The implication being he had a level of comfort and care most do not. At least he had enough self-awareness to know there is a difference.

[Airmid]

My post is a non-sequitur,
but I am posting it here because I don't have my own thread, and yet I want to share this.

Today an old friend of mine called me to tell me that her H died.
That in itself was a surprise as the man was simply not that old - late 60s.
But it was also tragically sad.
20 years ago my friend - I will call her Mary - and her H (let's call him Jim) had a severe break in their marriage.
I didn't understand it at the time - nor did she - but now looking back with hindsight - her H had a severe MLC.

At the time (20 years ago) Jim started to become irritable. 
He was questioning his life, seemed unsatisfied with everything. 
He was a college professor teaching computer science. 
He was very talented in his career. 
But he started to become unglued.  He wasn't acting like himself.
Mary didn't understand it, Jim didn't understand it but was very angry and defensive. 
Mary tried to get them into marriage counseling - it was futile.
She brought him to their family doctor, thinking there might be some medical cause, nothing was found.

Jim ended up quitting his job suddenly and without warning.
Mary and Jim had 4 kids, only one was grown and out of the house.
They had a mortgage, responsibilities, etc.
Not only did Jim quit his job - he quit all his responsibilities as a  husband and a father.
He briefly moved to a friend's house - and then all of a sudden he disappeared entirely.
Mary was out of her mind with worry - not to mention the kids.
Months later they found out Jim had moved to Mexico.
Jim had no ties to mexico - no ability to speak spanish - no relatives there.
He spent years there being a beach bum. 
And truly living like a bum - no home - sleeping in the back of a restaurant/bar located on a Mexican beach, off the beaten track.

Mary tried to make contact - and when she did she realized what most LBSer realize - that Jim had his own version of their shared history. 
For the most part it was futile to interact with Jim, and at times almost impossible as he had no home, no phone, etc.

Meanwhile Mary had to pick up the pieces of the bomb blast.
She was also a college professor - but she now took up odd second jobs as well.
She struggled to close joint bank accounts - and credit cards (made very difficult by his disappearance to another country).
She struggled to get the kids though it - get them college educations.
After about 5 years or so - Jim was in sporadic contact with his kids and Mary.
He even came back briefly to Mary for a summer - before disappearing again into Mexico.
After that Mary was able to get a divorce in absentia.

Following the divorce Mary, Jim and the kids stayed in whatever spontaneous and infrequent contact Jim would allow.  It was not much.
Needless to say - there was zero financial help from Jim once he left the first time.
If he was employed in Mexico - it was probably minimal pay to just get by.
Once when one of the kids got older, he went down to see his father.  He reported back to his mother that although physically he was recognizable, there was very little left of the man he remembered as his father.

I now know that what happened to Jim was a MLC.
I now understand why Mary was left speechless and had no understanding of what could have gone so terribly wrong with a marriage that from all angles always appeared to be healthy and happy.
I remember my own reaction at the time - that there was something missing from the puzzle - that people just don't get up and leave like that.

But Jim did.  And many of the spouses on here go into their own weird decent - unexplainably.
Last month Jim died in Mexico.
Mary wasn't even aware until weeks later.
Last week she and her kids held a memorial ceremony for her xH.
The ceremony was filled with friends and people from Jim's past as well as people who are connected to Mary and the kids.
They had a joyous ceremony of his life - up until his MLC break.
It was as if everyone acknowledged his life from birth till the BD - and then the rest of his life was barely referred to.

Mary didn't call me to let me know of the ceremony, because we now live several states apart.
But when we talked on the phone - we both reminisced about the happy times we had all spent together - all of us.
Mary and the kids still clearly loved Jim, or their memories of who Jim was.
But Jim had divorced himself from his old self - and really never looked back.
Twenty years later, Jim died as he wanted - away from his family - in his new life in Mexico - however that worked out for him.

I guess this whole issue has brought up how much I will never truly understand what happens to these MLCers. 
How they can give up so much, and descend into what I would perceive as a hellish existence - yet they seem content to stay there. 
In this case - 20 years - right up until Jim's death.

[Treasur]

Good grief, Air...what a sad story.
As you say the kind of story we nod along with here while most people in RL just go WTF 
It sounds as if Mary and her kids are made of good tough stuff so I hope they made a good post MLC life regardless?

As you say, he divorced himself from his old self and old life....got what he wanted presumably but you're right, even when we are detached enough from our own situation, it still is hard to understand. I'm not sure I have ever heard a story here of an MLCer who creates a dramatically better life for themselves in the end, let alone does something big or amazing after it. Have you? The best they seem to get is a smaller less successful version of their old life with quite a lot of ongoing cost in money and family relationships.

[Anjae]

What a sad story, Air.

Jim was a MLCer that 20 years later was still in MLC. Very, very sad.

Mr J and other MLCer have a bigger, more successful version of their former life, if for more successful we mean money, work and type of lifestyle.

If successful means inner peace, grace,  true love, then MLCers have it far less successful.

[Airmid]

Yes Anjae - it was very sad in that Jim remained in MLC for the rest of his life.
20 years in fact. 
And there was no indication that had he lived longer that anything would have changed.
I don't think his new life was "better". 
His kids described his post BD personna as a "shell of the person we knew".

[Whyus]

Poor Mary, what a Story! I too hope that Mary and her children had a full life after Jim left.
I didnt know the guy but I dont think that Jim was in a crisis for 20 years, thats hard to believe somehow. He most probably just got into some Kind of Routine and got used to it, settled for it. "This is my life now, I have no other Options so I will make the best of it" Kind of thinking.

[Airmid]

Here is Mary's post BD story Whys...

The first 5 years after BD was very confusing for Mary.
The kids were completely baffled and upset - Mary herself had no real answers as to what happened.
One of her kids started acting out because of it.
Financially she was very very stressed.

In the 5th year post BD - her eldest son -  went down to Mexico to find his father to tell him of his impending marriage and ask him to attend the ceremony.
(At his point in time they had a rough idea of where Jim was - and there was sporadic contact)
Jim agreed and did in fact come back to the US for his son's wedding.

Everyone was very happy that Jim had come, including Mary.
The awkward part was they now lived in a rather rural part of Ohio, and Mary's son asked her if "Dad" could stay at her house for the wedding.  With some trepidation, Mary agreed.
It was a country wedding - one of those multi-day affairs where friends and family gathered for a weekend celebration.
And Jim slipped back quietly into his role of "father".  Everyone was polite, no one asked him much about his whereabouts etc.

When the wedding weekend was over, Jim made no move to leave.
Mary asked Jim when his plans were to return to Mexico.
Jim responded that he enjoyed seeing the kids, as it had been so long, and he thought he would stay a bit longer.
Mary was baffled but didn't push it.  I know from our conversations at the time she had no idea how to deal with Jim.
And so it was that Jim spent a summer (the 5th year after BD) with Mary.
But in that time, Jim simply wandered about.  Jim had no plans to get a job or anything like that.
It seemed like he saw this as an extended vacation.
He sometimes did a few chores around the house, mowed the lawn or fixed things.
Mary never asked him to do anything, but was pleased when he did.
And then in the middle of September, Mary came home from work and Jim was gone.
No note, nothing mentioned to any of the kids, he just took his leave like a migrating bird.

I know it hurt Mary and the kids once again.  But by this time they realized that Jim was simply no longer the person they remembered.  He had changed.

Mary went to a lawyer and proceeded to get a divorce.
Jim went completely off the grid and no-one knew his whereabouts - so the divorce process was in absentia.  It took two years to do that.

Eventually Jim showed up in some other remote town in Mexico.
And as I said - he contacted the family when and if he felt like.
There was never another physical visit.

Mary concentrated on her career and getting her kids through college.
She dated here and there, but nothing very serious.
I don't really think she wanted another committed relationship.
Her focus was on her kids.
Today Mary is retired.  She moved from the big rural house in Ohio to another location closer to her grown kids.
All her children are married now and she has 7 grandchildren.

Jim never attended any of the other weddings. 
He never saw any of his grandchildren in person. 

Did Mary do ok?
Yes.  She rebuilt her life in a way.
She got back on her feet financially, but certainly it was at a diminished financial level than had Jim stayed in the marriage.

I know Mary suffered emotionally after Jim left.
The worry of "if he was dead", "where was he?" loomed large in the first few years.
Mary went to therapy and at some point realized she had to let go emotionally - and she did.
She had to accept that although she might not understand it - this was the way Jim wanted to live his life.

Her life now is busy with her grown children and her grandchildren.
She is retired from teaching.
She is not interested in dating at this point.
I think she is happy - but I think she will always regret how her marriage fell apart.

[stillbaffled]

But by this time they realized that Jim was simply no longer the person they remembered.  He had changed.

Thank you, Airmid, for sharing all this. 

It would seem that Mary is living the best life she can. 

Unlike Whyus, I do believe that people can, and do, remain in some form of a crisis.  They change and the "old" them never returns.  They just stay stuck as a person that we don't even know. 

I do enjoy seeing posts from you here, Airmid!  I hope the rentals are doing well. 

[Airmid]

Hi SB -

Yes the rentals are doing very well. 
I finally got both units at the beach house habitable and rented.
One unit I rented seasonally, the other on a short term basis via Airbnb. 
The short term rentals make a lot more money but they are also a lot more work. 
The seasonal tenant helps with the Airbnb turnovers - so it all worked out.
 
I am finally on my feet financially and am planning for retirement.
I probably will retire next year.

When all this MLC/BD happened - I could see no way that I would ever get my life back up on track.
To my surprise, I will have more money in retirement than I make now.
Who could have guessed that?

I am happy, my life is full of wonderful things. 
Once again - I could have never imagined happiness after BD - but here I am - happy as a clam.
I am grateful to be surprised.

[OldPilot]

Hi SB -

Yes the rentals are doing very well. 
I finally got both units at the beach house habitable and rented.
One unit I rented seasonally, the other on a short term basis via Airbnb. 
The short term rentals make a lot more money but they are also a lot more work. 
The seasonal tenant helps with the Airbnb turnovers - so it all worked out.
 
I am finally on my feet financially and am planning for retirement.
I probably will retire next year.

When all this MLC/BD happened - I could see no way that I would ever get my life back up on track.
To my surprise, I will have more money in retirement than I make now.
Who could have guessed that?

I am happy, my life is full of wonderful things. 
Once again - I could have never imagined happiness after BD - but here I am - happy as a clam.
I am grateful to be surprised.

Good to hear - a success story! 

[Strongcurrent]

Hi Air

Nice to hear an update - always knew you would make the most of your life!  Hope the plans go well for next year - often think of you even on the other side of the world !!  Big shout out to the LBS with married ex’s - SB /treasur/1t

SCx

[Anjae]

Thank for updating your story, Air. Glad to know things are going well for you.

Another who believes some people remain in MLC.

[Milly]

Thanks for updating us, Air. I remember following as you did up the beach rentals. Seems like years ago. So happy to hear you're doing well from it and will be retiring well next year.

[Albatross]

Hello OldTimers Just to show that I am alive and kicking !

About money. I spend 10000 € to make my home as I want it, and guess what I have same amount of money as I has before that ?! You have to question self, how that is possible ? We has 2 salaries and 4 people. Then we have one salary, alimony and 3 people. Daughter went to live with boyfriend and now we have one salary and one alimony and two of us.

Go figure ! I said that to wife and she remain silent. Where the hell all of that money goes before she left ?

 

[Airmid]

Albatross  -

That is the big question.  I ask that myself.
I did turn the rental properties around and they now make money -
but they were all making some money before. 
The real estate bleed was not that severe with xH and me together.

My lifestyle has not really changed that drastically since H left.
(and xH left suddenly - with no financial help - his salary was $100K+)

What I now think is that xH was spending lots of money on OW and I didn't know it.
I also know xH indulged himself a lot.
Weekly trips to the barber for haircuts or shaves.
Weekly massage appointments.
He had to send all his shirts out to the dry cleaners as he didn't think I or our maid ironed them properly.
He went to a very expensive gym.
He ate out at restaurants every day for lunch at work (no expense account).
We often ate out for dinners because he felt like it.
His spending was always excessive.
He bought at the designer stores for men - spending $50 - $100 for a business shirt was nothing.
He bought very expensive shoes - and he had more shoes than Imelda Marcos.
When he was clearing out his stuff he took out 4 large suitcases of shoes alone.
He thought nothing of going into Home Depot and spending tons of money on tools - he always had to have the best of the best. I
t was not uncommon for his to have a $400 impulse buy at Home Depot.
In summary - he was a spender.

I bet if you examine your situation - you might see something similar.

[Thunder]

I agree with this, Albatross.

You'll probably never hear the truth, but at least the bleeding has stopped now.

[Treasur]

Hmmm, Air...don't recall that his Affair Down new life sounded quite so schmancy 
And if it is, then how lovely that ow got an aging liability with poor returns lol.

[Mortesbride]

Wow just replace 4 suitcases of shoes with video games and that sums up Beast.

No money because he constantly haemorrhaged it on 'lunches' 'coffees' and video games he never had time to play. 

Now he has his full pay check, living with MIL..yet still only has ''£20 a week for food''....

How is that possible when I have a mortgage, bills, three kids to feed, yet still manage to spend £60-100 a week to feed them! 

Oh wait it probably has something to do with the new PS4, giant TV, laptop, Tablet, and all the concert tickets... 

[Airmid]

I have to tell you Morte -
it boggles my mind how on earth my xH seems to be broke - when he should be rolling in dough.

I do know that in the first 6 months when Ostrich left, he racked up 18K in credit card debt.
This was so out of character for him - a man who always paid his credit cards in full at the end of every month.

I recently came across a bit of info regarding xH - he is selling his rental property. 
It is in a college town and it is a 4 unit rental.

Something about this makes no sense.
I talked to LP about it this morning.
I asked,
"Why would you sell a rental unit with no mortgage on it,
that makes a minimum of 2K each month after expenses (24K a year),
when it runs like a machine, always rents easily to students,
you live 5 minutes away from the house - so easy to check up on it?"

One might say - well xH wants to buy a new home for him and the ruminant.
But think about this - the OW lived in a small house (also near his rental) and there was practically no mortgage on it. 
At the time xH left (post BD) he was making 120K plus the income on his rental units.
Being extremely conservative - his monthly take home was about 7K a month.

So he is paying hardly any rent - probably has no travel expenses to work as he would be driving a car provided by the office. 
How the heck do you not have boatloads of cash after 5 years of extremely reduced expenses?
In my estimate - he could have easily saved $250K since he left. Not to mention - with his salary it would be really easy to get a mortgage.  When he left he had considerable money in investments.

Like you Morte - I am doing a lot more on significantly less income.

Also somewhat baffling was seeing the photos of the house as it now is shown on the market.
It is in rough shape. 
Really shocking considering Ostrich always took pride in the house and always landscaped it beautifully.
Over the years there were beautiful gardens installed - but now the place looks like Grey Gardens.

And the final kicker that really makes me laugh.. who do you think is the listing realtor?
OW!  LOL this woman who I don't think even finished his school is now a realtor?
And who is she working for?  XH's real estate friend.  Her one and only house listing is xH's house!

I just shake my head at all of this.
 

[Strongcurrent]

Crazy stuff air - sounds like ostrich owes money somewhere else as it makes no sense to sell a viable rental which could be used as collateral on a loan for a house if that’s what he is up to.

It is amazing how we survive - when Exh first left he did contribute a lot .  I secured a mortgage on our fab property - used in an advertisement recently and even though my both kids are over 18 - which in NZ law when exH payments ceased - I am able to pay the mortgage, support the kids thru university and travel .... and my retirement fund is intact!

My exh was a spender - he earnt big but spent big - never saved - not sure how he is surviving now he is in Memphis on minimum wage supporting 3 kids ... I have had the odd email particularly the one where he saw the advert the house was in - said how great it looked and how it was nice to see certain paintings etc - totally in Lala land .

Take care SCx

[Airmid]

Love to see your post SC.
Yes honey, we both were able to jump off the crazy train.

I no longer feel I am missing anything.
I am glad not to be part of Ostrich’s decent into hell.

[beyondblessed]

It's so funny that many of us emerge from the fallout, only to realize these schmucks were dragging us down with them and if we hadn't cut out losses, we'd be living in the gutter alongside them.

Sure, I had to scramble for a job, but I've not scrimped on anything or denied myself of what I would've considered luxuries back when I was married.....and I have more money and financial security than I've ever had.  No, I certainly do not go on frivolous spending binges, but I am living more peacefully and comfortably than I ever have.

I knew back then that my xh was a spender and a wasteful one at that,  but I truly had no idea to what degree.  It's mind boggling how their monkey brains work.  They cause all these problems, run away like spoiled, petulant children, and think it's all going to come up roses for them.

I have no idea of anything going on with my xh.  I've have absolutely no contact with him, unless absolutely necessary since our divorce 3 years ago.  Last December, my car registration was inadvertently sent to him, and rather than him returning it to me, he chose to dispose of it like a little baby, so that tells me he is still the fool he was back then, and I'm so over the moon happy he's gone and not coming back.

[lawprofessor]

Yes, mine too thought he was going to land amidst a rose garden after his grand exit.   

The latest update from him is that his father passed away.  His father who had his own MLC, moved in with a Polish lady looking for citizenship who is 31 years his junior, no job, no money, barely spoke English.  This man left when Genius was 19 after having a 3 year affair with her, came home and left 7 more times, until he decided to stay with his young lady but refused to divorce Genius's mother ever.  He hadn't spoken to his wife nor seen her in 32 years. 

But Genius's mother still had the clothes he left hanging in her closet.  And she is preparing for a legal war over his estate including the life insurance policy and the house he and the girlfriend lived in, as well as the bills he left.

Genius refused to see/speak to his father for over 25 years.  He saw him a couple times after our divorce and with his father congratulating him on finding a younger girl who would take care of him and not cause him too much drama or work.

So to recap Genius lost:

His job
2 subsequent jobs
His medical license
His military rank
His honorable discharge
His military benefits
His military pension
His professional reputation
His future academic job prospects
One house
One townhouse
All his old friends
A few hundred thousand dollars in savings
The sister that raised him who passed away while he was running about the video game parlours of Russia
His father
And 89% of the assets we acquired over our marriage as well as all the time he's spent chasing dragons.

Currently he is living in his mother's house sleeping on her couch, a couch too small for his well over 6' frame.  He spends his days driving her around and watching Matlock with her and occasionally sneaks off to the library to write me an email detailing how much he misses me, how angry he is with me, how he wants to go back in time to before this all happened, and how I am heartless in not allowing him to come home and be happy again.

By all appearances he will follow in his father's footsteps and be a MLC lifer.

And I long ago traded in my ticket on the MLC Trainwreck, quit hoping to play build a man from the wreckage, and gave up trying to heal a man child who refuses to get help or help himself.

I have a successful and growing practice, a demanding teaching career, book contracts, consulting for the government, a side business doing estate sales, a side business creating and selling folk art and antiques with my things in upscale galleries and shops and more orders than I can fill nearly.  I kept my home, my friends, made new friends, have a lovely man in my life on my terms who doesn't expect me to take care of him, and am gaining ground on where I was financially prior to BD as I fell pretty far in that area.  Best of all I fixed myself, regained my relationship with God, and healed.  I still value my memories of our time together as they are a part of me but MLC dies not have to be a life sentence to pain and unhappiness unless you choose it to be.  There is another option that comes with hard work but great rewards.

Best,
Lp

[beyondblessed]

Wow, LP, his dad sounds like a total train wreck.  He must really be a genius to want to repeat those footsteps.  Crazy doesn't even come close to that one.

Glad you are doing so well for yourself.  It's not easy to move on initially,  but once you get out from under the avalanche,  you start to see things so much more clearly.

[Treasur]

How is your friend J doing these days, LP?

[Mortesbride]

Lp the thing that stood out for me... is the fact he is angry with YOU.

After the physical violence he did to you, the running around, the affair...

Yet he is angry you won't let him back.

He is still blindly selfish I see. 

[Airmid]

Because I no longer maintain my own thread - I dug this "Old Timers" thread out.

Christmas time is around the corner - and after that comes New Years.
For me I often use this as a time of reflection for the past - was well as a chance to set forth new hopes and dreams.
I did this before BD - and I still do it to date.

For those of you who don't know my story -
BD was 2014.
I was completely blindsided.
I thought we had a perfectly happy marriage.
Insert all the usual blah blah blah about MLCer antics etc.
H moved in with OW 2 weeks after BD.
Pretty much a vanisher - with my assistance - as I wanted nothing to do with his fractured and emotionally abusive post BD behavior.
Divorced 2016.

Fast forward 5 years.
My life is completely rebuilt.
I rehabbed a dilapidated beach house that was left to me in an inheritance.
I survived 3 separate lawsuits regarding my fathers will/estate.
I dug myself out of serious debt that xH left me with.
I reconnected with old friends.
Through exposing myself to new situations - I met a lot of new friends.
I made new hobbies and interests.
I became financially solid again - to the point that I can take a vacation or a interesting course, etc without stressing about the money.

But most of all - I am at peace.
Peace with myself.
Peace with my surroundings.
Peace with my life.
I accepted an outcome of my marriage that I had no say in.
I stopped wringing my brain trying to figure out the how and whys and simply accepted the fact he was gone.

Letting go became freeing.
There was a lightness of being.

I really noticed this just the other day.
Yesterday, by peculiar circumstances - I had gotten myself invited to a tour of a perfumery laboratory.
There was logic behind this - I teach aromatherapy - but still this was outside my normal realm.

Anyway - the experience was enlightening.
It was intellectually stimulating, talking to the master perfumer.
And because we both come to the world of scents from different angles - me from a science background - him from aesthetic and artistic expression - it was a fascinating meeting of minds and thoughts.
A meeting that was supposed to take possibly 1 hour lasted well over three - as the time flew by because we were so engrossed.
The topics of discussion were wide ranging - perfume, chemistry, wholistic health, mind-body-spiritual connection, scents in ritual and religion, etc., etc.

Two things that stood out to me upon reflection of that meeting.

1  - was that the perfumer said to me - "I admire your sense of risk taking and adventure."

2  - was that I was fully present in the moment for that meeting - I had no distracting or lingering other thoughts.
And I came to the meeting open minded - with no set expectations.

I can look back now and see that I am truly healed.
A newly BD-ed me would have related every experience to my H or my missing life.
My experience would have been one where I was not fully present - just going through the motions.

And so I thought I would share this to suggest how a recovering LBSer might use my example for themselves.

We all know about the pain.  In that first year or two - it just hangs over you like a black cloud.
But for me - the key to the door to get out of the hell of the pain was to focus on self-care.
And self care is mental, spiritual, intellectual, physical.
It is eating healthy.  It is taking walks out in nature.  It is discovering or re-discovering who we are apart from family and spouses.
It is learning to love ourselves. 

But most importantly it is about being willing to take risks.
For me - at BD - both of my parents had died, I lost my husband - I had no children or other family members.
What I didn't realize at the time was - I had no more to lose - and therefore I had nothing left to fear about losing.
And without fear, you are able to consider thinking, feeling and doing things differently.

Finally, stop the monkey-braining.  Stop looking in the rear view mirror to see where your spouse is.
The prevailing wisdom is - there is nothing you can do to speed up or conjure a particular outcome - so let it be.
Living as if the spouse is not coming back means just that - go out and live your life.
Don't live in limbo - be active - do things - enjoy the sunrises and the sunsets - do something new - challenge your mind.

I can look at myself as I was in that meeting and realize -
not only had I regained my personality and my soul - I had become an even better person.
Stronger and more mature.

XH is no longer on the scene - and no longer a player in the play.
He exited offstage over 5 years ago - and he no longer has the staring role.
Like an actor in a play that has been killed off - the story goes on without him.

For newbies - listen to the old timers when they say - GAL.
Gal doesn't mean dating.  It means getting a life.
Initially it can just be distracting occupations so you don't sit in your pile of tears.
But eventually it will become the threads that you use to weave into your existing warp and weft to create a rich tapestry of your life.

One final thought - during yesterday's meeting the perfumer asked me -
"What is your life's dream?"
I laughed and said I didn't have one - I told him about past dreams - of planning to lead students on botanical tours of France -
but that those dreams were no longer what I wanted to do.

He seemed a bit surprised that I had no "dream".
I explained that I have been an engineer for government for 38 years and was soon to retire.
That I want to experience  the freedom without regimented work.
I want to take a wine sommelier class at the french institute.
Possibly I will take a holistic skin care class.
I told him I was happy not to have a set plan - but rather was free to sample and explore - without expectations.

Sounds a lot like rebuilding my life after BD - only better 

Wishing you all a peaceful and happy holiday season.

Air


 

[Acorn]

Airmid, thank you for sharing your thoughts with us.

You truly rose from the ashes and are zooming through the sky with other sundry phoenixes.
What a success story! 

[HeartTattoo]

Wonderful update, Airmid! Yours is a truly inspiring story for those who are coming along & still struggling with grief & pain. You gotta go through the grief & pain for some time, no getting around it really, but you lay out the path--self-care, living like they're not coming back (cuz, face it, statistically that's the outcome), taking risks, living a new life for yourself. It's really the only way.

I know not everyone can arrange it, but I think No Contact helps so much with healing & focusing on a new life. And don't look back at the MLCer & try to divine meaning from his actions. MLC caused their aberrant behavior patterns. Why do we try to make meaning out of their post-BD behavior? His contacting me for medical records I don't have means absolutely nothing. Knowing H & OW have a commuter M means absolutely nothing. Nothing to be figured out here. It is all nonsense. Don't stare at the car wreck.

One of my favorite bits of wisdom from my counselor was "What do you get when two garbage trucks run into each other? F*cking garbage everywhere!" I don't need to look at that garbage-strewn highway & try to figure out what that means. It's just...garbage.

Hugs,
HT 

[Treasur]

One of my favorite bits of wisdom from my counselor was "What do you get when two garbage trucks run into each other? F*cking garbage everywhere!" I don't need to look at that garbage-strewn highway & try to figure out what that means. It's just...garbage.

This may be one of my favourite snippets from HS ever 

[stillbaffled]

One of my favorite bits of wisdom from my counselor was "What do you get when two garbage trucks run into each other? F*cking garbage everywhere!" I don't need to look at that garbage-strewn highway & try to figure out what that means. It's just...garbage.

I agree with Treasur - a bit of wisdom I'll hang on to.  Thanks, HT.   

Airmid - thank you for sharing your wisdom. 

[xyzcf]

I have a beef today and need to vent.

I checked in to a large and prestigious teaching hospital this morning for a scan. The last 5 weeks I have been going for various tests/apts and inevitably I am asked what my marital status is. I used to just say "married", very seldom does it feel right to check "divorced" and so somehow I think "single" fits the best. I consider myself married but I certainly don't have a husband in my life.

So I answer "single"...am I lying? Will the insurance company deny coverage because they won't agree with my "title". And what the heck do they need to know this for anyway?

The questions continue: "are your working?" No.

"Is you spouse employed?" Well yes he is actually but I wouldn't refer to him as my spouse really.....remember I stated I was single.

Then, MRS xyzcf, could you just sign the following documents.....

I am anxious, I am scared, my therapist tells me that if I were not scared she would be concerned. I am alone to deal with this.....

Then, there is COVID

I cannot go home and be with my daughter for her birthday..the first time in her life that I have not been there with her to celebrate, also Canadian Thanksgiving and doesn't look good for Christmas

My wedding anniversary is this Thursday.

I have a significant problem with my house that was repaired in Dec but is causing problems again.

I have been trying all summer trying every product on the market to stop rabbits from destroying my grass...I am losing that battle.

My dear dog has dementia

My best friend who I have enjoyed going to concerts, happy hour, movies and Sunday dinners with her family has moved to the other side of the country

There is the most insane political stuff going on that I have ever experienced in 65 years and and it scares me deeply

I have a possible health issue to deal with

and the list goes on....

I KNOW that I am lucky and blessed and many have much worse going on in their lives....

but please, when I disclose that I am "single" have the courtesy not to call me "MRS" and not to ask if my husband is employed...oh and the other question that stills comes up "where are you from" I answer Montreal, the nurse responds "I wondered about your accent" and then of course..."what brought you to the US?"

I am feeling very irritable these days..thanks for listening. Peace be with all of you.

[Milly]

Hi xy, just want to let you know that I hear you. I'm not surprised you feel overwhelmed right now. I know I'd be anxious if my best friend was moving far away, and then to be facing a possible health issue as well. I think we are very strong for the most part, we hold it together, we push forward and enjoy everything we can, but there are times when there are so many tough things surrounding us that it becomes hard to understand. It can feel that things are stacked against us personally, that we don't get a break. At least this is how I've felt a few times since BD.

I don't have any answers except to tell you that we are still here for you. We are not gone. Covid will end at some point and you'll be able to go back home to Canada and celebrate the big holidays.  If you have a health issue, you will deal with it, and we will be here to support you through it. Sending you a hug on this difficult day. x

[Treasur]

Hug from here too.
Sometimes the reality of life as it currently is just sucks. It isn't how we want it and wasn't what we chose and it feels unfair and just not right. This is one of those times. We get it, xyz, you know we do. So yes, vent here if it helps bc we care about you and we get it. We also know that you know that these moments pass through and that you have all the experience you need to dig deep to navigate it. But we also know that just bc you can does not always take away how it feels that it is how it is.......or how tired we can get from having to dig deep again and again...
So, another hug xxx

[HeartTattoo]

XYZ,

I am sorry you are dealing with some potential health crisis. That is hard enough itself & then to know that there should be someone there supporting you, someone who vowed to do that. In sickness & health... Another reminder that our lives are not what they should be.

And then the whole M/S/D thing. I had to review my info online today for a dr's appt tomorrow. I see that word "Divorced" in my profile every time & I think "Wait, that's not...oh, yeah it is". Not what I wanted, then or ever. And for you as a Stander, it must be even more jarring. The Catholic Church considers you a married person, you consider yourself a married person, but you don't fit into society's slot for married people. The follow-up questions don't work. The follow-up explanation would just make you seem delusional to a person who just wants to check off boxes. That glaring category "Divorced" is not where we want to be, never wanted to be, never gave a thought to the possibility that we would be.

It's a lot to be going through, especially alone. I remind myself that I can do this or that or the other thing on my own & I can. I'm sure you can too. But it is exhausting, it's not right, it's not the life we worked for, sacrificed for, always thought we would have through life's struggles.

I am so sorry for all of your current struggles.
Hugs,
HT

[FaithWalker]

Sending you lots of thoughts and prayers XY.  It has been a while since I've been "over the hill" to your City, but if there is anything I can do please reach out.

[OldPilot]

Sorry you are struggling,

life is a struggle isn't it?

There is always a curveball coming in and its hard to hit it.

I have nothing for advice but I can send a ((((HUG)))))

[Seahorse]

xyzcf-
I am so so sorry that you're going through ALL that you're enduring.
I can't accept the "divorced" box either - I will always be married in my heart, and he will always be my husband - even though he divorced me.
Just know in your heart that your friend will always be your friend and will probably (I don't know her) always be there for you if you need her. 
I'm sorry about your dog.  Tough to have to care for an ill animal when you're going through your own health issues.
Basically - I'm sorry everything is happening.
You will be in my thoughts and prayers for peace and health, and compassion and self-love.

Sea

[xyzcf]

Thank you for your messages and understanding.....there is something wrong, ironically with my heart. I am waiting to hear the results and maybe it will be everything is fine or at the worst case, it can be "fixed"....as we all are aware..the bucket right now is overflowing and I feel somewhat "frozen"...flight, fight, freeze and as we all are...so very tired of feeling this way.

My nursing background is also problematic as I have worked in CCU so my mind tends to think things that are not the case for me.....

I think we are all experiencing some amount of depression. I am grateful that I can express these fears and irrational thoughts and that others will nod their heads with me..thank you so much!

[MsMedfly]

I guess I officially qualify as an old timer now??? I’m 6 years in..

XY,

I’m sending you so many prayers. I know EXACTLY what you mean.. Nothing is worse than the dreaded scan. I was diagnosed with stage 4 colon cancer that metastasized to my liver in July of 2019. Since that day, the entire world seems completely and totally off, nothing goes right, works right, sounds right... I’m adopted with no medical history, at the ripe old age of 43 with genetic colon cancer.

You my friend are not alone. And screw the box checking!!! I say write in other: independently owned and operated!! 🤣🤣🤣🤣

I admire you so, for how committed you are to standing. I did till God told me otherwise and I’m now married to my perfect! You are so incredibly strong and it breaks my heart that you are struggling..

But I think, in a way, we all are..

COVID sucks. I’m a high school teacher and let me tell you, I’ve always loved my calling, but right now, I’d retire if I could, it sucks too..

I’m kinda on the sick of all it train... 26th round of chemo starts tomorrow. I just know I’m a glow stick!!! I’m just done, with all the unrest, uneasy, divided, hateful, bickering children that are supposed to be leaders and role models... and the “grown ups” that have all taken a side..

I could rant forever.. The learning platform we use, Canvas, it’s logo looks like corona under a microscope. Coincidence, I think not!!!!! 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

Sending you everything I’ve got sweet X.., You’ve  helped me through some very dark times.. and you need to know what a light you are to others, even in the midst of your mountains..

Hugs and prayers dear friend.. 💜💜💜💜

[xyzcf]

I am so sorry to hear that MsMedfly and will add you to my prayers...what a shock to find that out at age 43..and then all the chemo and radiation.....

I keep telling myself...God has a plan.

You take good care of yourself and your loved ones....I have much to be grateful for but BD created in me a tremendous amount of "fear" and anxiety and everything seems bigger than it really is.

I loved this!!!!!

I say write in other: independently owned and operated!!

((((HUGS)))))

[stillbaffled]

xyz - sending some good thoughts through cyber space. 

[Ropeburn]

Xyz
  I'm sorry to hear about your health issues . You was very helpful to me and I will be there for you if you need to vent,scream just whatever all you need to do is message me .

(((( Hugs ))))

[xyzcf]

Thanks to all of you. My "virtual" family.

The test results are "better" in that I don't need any medical intervention other than medications and lifestyle changes. I do have a 30% blocked left main artery, no symptoms but it freaks me out a bit. However, had I not gone to see a doctor to be prescribed a medication, I would be none the wiser.

There are lifestyle choices I can make, more cardio exercise (and I already am quite committed to an exercise routine), healthier diet (that's probably the hardest for me) and decrease my stress level.

I am finding that I am "thinking" more about my life...things like this do that and I am grateful in some ways for this wakeup call.

I will met with my therapist again because the mind/body connection is quite strong and needs some delving into .....for my heart and my love for him are intertwined and I am not sure if that is logical or not but it is very real.

My prayers are for each one of you, in these strange and crazy times and I thank you for showing your care and concern to me. God bless you all.

[Treasur]

That sounds like pretty good news, xyz, and I'm so pleased to hear it 

[Father5]

     Glad to hear XYZ!
You will find that the cardio will help with your stress as well. Try and get your heart rate high even if just for a short time. It can make all the difference in the world !

[Milly]

So glad to hear this, xy.

[OldPilot]

Thanks to all of you. My "virtual" family.

The test results are "better" in that I don't need any medical intervention other than medications and lifestyle changes.

More Golf - less Carbs.

[xyzcf]

More Golf - less Carbs.

INDEED OP! I played my second day of golf in a row today  and will play again tomorrow 

Does less Carbs include beer?

[Ropeburn]

There is carbs in beer ?

Glad to hear test results are better than expcted

[OldPilot]

Well I just learned something


https://www.delish.com/food/g26987069/low-carb-beer/

[xyzcf]

Thank you OP! So many choices! Fortunately I already have Corona and Michelob light in the frig

[Mitzpah]

Well I just learned something


https://www.delish.com/food/g26987069/low-carb-beer/

Oh wow! I wish they had that kind here... I will have do some researching

[MsMedfly]

No, beer is carb free, as are cupcakes, and all desserts when you’re one of us!!! 🤣🤣💜💜

[MsMedfly]

I wasn’t done.. stupid technology..

LP and Air, lawd how I’ve missed y’all... I finally figured out where all  my people went.

Genius landed exactly where you predicted he would.. Ostrich still have his head buried??

I can’t believe, after the hell that man put you through, he has the balls to blame you.. Yup, I said it, I’m from Texas.. I can’t help it!!

I do have this secret wish that puffy sends me the apology email I think I deserve. However, after the latest meme to hit Facebook, puffy is up next in 2020. Yes, my ex husband is a flaming ball of massive marshmallow goo.. the stay puff marshmallow man!!

I know his mlc certainly humbled me and I’m so grateful for it. I’d become just like him in so many ways and I don’t like him... and I know I didn’t like me..

Now, I’m a better person, friend, wife,  mom, aunt because of what I went through..

I still think a fruit basket to puffy would just be a fabulous idea!! Thank you for divorcing me, I’m having an incredible life!! Thanks...

Too soon??

[Keep believing]

Has anyone heard from ,Never say Never?  or Medusa?

[Seahorse]

I talked to NSN last week.
She and her hubby are reconciled and working through issues, but it's what she wants - and as we know - that's what's most important.
Seems like some come back with more issues than others...
As long as they're willing to work on themselves...

[Milly]

So good to hear about Never, I have been thinking about her lately.

[Shining Star]

Wow!  I am so happy for Never.  I love a happy ending.  I can only imagine that it is very difficult, but the opportunity to heal together is available, and that is an amazing thing......

[Snowdrop]

Hello all.  Hope you are doing well.

I don't post anymore as nothing to report.  BD was 2012 and husband a vanisher.  Thought I would add a quick update as we got messages from him recently.  Mine was to do with something we own together and which he wants to sell.  No surprise there.  I deleted the message.  No interest in anything he has to say, nor am I willing to return any calls.

Even contacted the kids  .  Said new job and moved state, seemed happy.  Added he recently had a bad illness (HAD not has) and can they contact him.  Kids were upset to hear from him and deleted his messages.

This was the person who abandoned his family and withdrew all finances, contact and support, and who put his children through emotional turmoil, as well as never asking how they are or even sending a dime for food.  A particularly vile man.

These calls came when we were all experiencing another stressful time, so the sound of his voice was truly unwanted, as well as his requests.

To anyone new to the site and reading this, I was in your situation and consumed by his behaviour and abandonment.  We made it to the other side, and now have zero interest in him at all.   I'm sure OW is probably still hanging around and waiting for her payday.  Who knows, don't care.  All we care about is we want him to go away and never contact us again.

There was a time when all I wanted was for him to come home.  That too, passes.

Stay well everyone, and focus on you.

[FaithWalker]

Hello Snowdrop, not sure if you were still on the boards when I joined in 2016 but it's good to hear an update, regardless.

From a LBS and loving mother viewpoint, I don't see how deep down he can truly be happy when he has left his children and wife in such a way, but that is the conundrum, isn't it?  How they can justify their lives, post bomb drop.

I'm glad you and your kids are doing well and I hope for his sake he does some reflecting and sees that he really did have the world and he threw it away.

[stillbaffled]

Another 2016 member here and while I don't remember reading your posts Snowdrop, I do appreciate reading updates from veterans. 

Nice to read that you and the kids have come out the other side and are doing well. 

[Milly]

Snowdrop, I remember you. Thank you for your update. It's good to hear that eventually, we just don't care any more.

Hope you and your kids are safe.

[spock]

Also another 2016 member here. Haven't heard from MLCer in over a year, bumped into him a few months back and that is all. MLCer has no contact with his family either, I have decided to slowly distance myself from them as well. Time to move on.

Last I heard, MLCer still a big spender and has no job. I'm doing great, just bought my own home (yay) and have my Christmas holidays planned!

[Seahorse]

spock -
Thanks for coming back to update us. 
I didn't know you personally, but seems like you've moved on well.
Congratulations on the house, and enjoy your Christmas plans.

Sea

[FaithWalker]

Hey spock!  Congrats on the new house.  Definitely enjoy your Holidays!

[Dumbfounded]

Wait....  am I officially an Old Timer now?  Class of 2016 baby.

[Philadelphiagirl]

Me too DF! Yes as class of 2016 I suppose that we both now join the Old Timers! BD 4 years ago this evening for me. Hope you are well, PG x

[beyondblessed]

Class of 2016 and graduated with honors.  In that time, I've gotten a new job, new home and now a new R with a wonderful,  caring, loving man.  Life got  infinitely better for me the day I decided to blaze my own path far, far away from his nonsense.

[spock]

Thanks all, does feel like an old fart now 

Seems like most of us all are doing well, if not better I haven't got into any relationships, pretty much traumatised from it all lol

[FIRETRUCK]

Hi everyone. I've not updated much and slow on the commenting, but I follow along most days!
Married 95 - BD was about 8 yrs ago and D final at the end of 2019 (took 6 yrs as XH kept dragging his feet).
Everything in between has been pretty much script although no wedding and no children as far as I'm aware - but at least 1 arrest,101 OW, rehab and a lot of pain for my children and I.
About 6 mths ago, ExH joined me & our now adult children in D's country - I hadn't seen X for probably close to 2 yrs. We met several times as a family over the course of the week - dinners, lunches, walks etc - even did a craft workshop which had us in stitches. I remained calm (I amazed myself!) We had a pretty good time, but I noted he still wasn't quite himself and we didn't have any real meaningful discussions at all.
Christmas - ExH rented a house and we spent the week together on holiday (neutral territory) as a family. We had an amazing time. A couple of heated exchanges, mainly bc ExH's obvious anxiety is endearing at times but quite loud and exhausting too. Again, lots of conversation but no real deep talks - though I sensed he wanted to, so I avoided going anywhere alone with him -  I'm no longer so  interested in justifications or explanations - I can see that he's sorry.  We shopped and cooked together and got into a nice rhythm.
He came to me one morning and said he's had a nightmare where he was trying to get into the main house where I was asleep with the kids and the door was locked and how he was banging on the glass...I wanted to laugh, I really did. I just said Oh - sounds horrible..  Something I read here a while back rang true - I don't feel like I love him the way I did at all, I'm not sure if it is love I feel at all. That realisation has left me a little sad and I caught myself wondering just now what it would take for me to feel that love for him again.
So I thought I'd write an update.
I'm not sure if it's my ego but I get the feeling he is way more emotionally attached than I had once suspected.
A few things he said, like missing my cooking, complimenting me on my dress and wanting to return to the place where I now live for much of the time...and suggesting that we rent a house again later in the year (?) After he left, he sent me a very sweet, but strange message thanking me for my benevolence (lol). He has been been sober now for over 5 yrs now I think, seeing a therapist, exercising and taking care of himself. He has recently started to offer more financially too.
I can't reconcile the person in front of me with the bats**t crazy guy that terrorized his wife and kids for so many years - but neither is he quite the man I was married to either. 
Firetruck

[1phoenix]

Firetruck, we all change and hopefully grow.  I

I have been poor at posting.  Holy cow, realized this week this was the 5th Christmas without ExH.   

It was good.  Life is good.  Always room for improvement. Always room for growth.

To all new ones reading this....just breathe. It will change. It does not feel like it, but it will. 

[Believer]

Hi friends,
I just thought I’d share an update on my life..13 years into H’s MLC🥴. I check in here frequently however I don’t often comment. I don’t know that I have anything further to offer than what others have already said. I also think the longer I’m at this the less I know what to say because it’s the most absurd experience.

My former husband remains married to the OW, they are celebrating their third year of “wedded bliss”. They continue to live apart (2.5 hrs) only being with each other on weekends and holidays. ExH was eligible to retire with a full pension two years, however he hasn’t. Interestingly, a friend who works at the same organization as ExH shared that she saw he has taken on a new position. I chuckled because I thought hmm…he’s really holding on to his work identity, and thank goodness that’s not my marriage 😂😂
Over a year ago I sent him an email asking if we could work together as our D’s parents to help with some of the home improvements she’d like to do at her new “fixer upper” home. As well, wanted to share some thoughts/concerns about former MIL who is really showing signs of aging. I suggested that it’s a nice step for us to becoming comfortable in each other’s presence. He went silent for over 3 weeks, when he did respond it was gibberish. He indicated that he is really busy with work, comes home and stares at the TV all evening. He just doesn’t have the energy to do anything more, then he closed it with..”Please be patient with me” . I literally laughed out loud to myself ..all these years and he’s still asking me to be patient. Needless to say he’s gone silent and I haven’t  heard a peep from him in over a year.
The other week our D mentioned that her dad was meeting her at the gym to take in a class. I said that’s nice he’s spending time with you. She laughed, well I told him if he wanted to see me then he had to fit into my schedule and so that meant a fitness class. Love that girl’s approach! She further went on to say that she only receives a text from him every 3-4 weeks, and the last time she saw him was Christmas. She said she really doesn’t miss him, he’s not the father she knew.
That for me is such an incredibly sad part of this whole experience. It’s also a reminder to me that indeed it’s an MLC he’s experiencing. He was an amazing father (and husband) prior.
As for me, I’ve become more comfortable with retirement, settling in to my own pattern. Covid has been a struggle due to the limitation however things are opening up so I’m looking forward to that.
I’ve planned a trip to visit my brother and his wife out East this summer. I’m very much looking forward to that. I’m blessed to have a great relationship with my daughter. I’m often helping her out with little tasks - great for a retired momma ! I’m not interested in another relationship, I’d rather spend time really getting to know me 😊
It has taken me an extremely long time … longer than I had hoped to get to where I am, endless hours in therapy, and tough strategies to rebuild my emotional and financial self.  I still think about ExH often, more so for what he’s lost, recognizing he’s running from doing any work on himself and that this truly didn’t have anything to do with me at all.

Hugs to all,
Believer

[Thunder]

Hi Believer, thank you for the update.  You sound good.

This truly has to be the strangest thing, this MLC.
To this day I will never fully understand what happens to them, psychologically, during this time, but it certainty changes them.

Maybe some day there will be some good studies done on this, but I'm not holding my breathe.   

[Believer]

Thunder I’m with you. It’s all so very difficult to understand what happens to them.

I’m surprised there isn’t more research completed on this as the damage from the outcome can be very substantial. I suppose people would need to step forward to provide the data and we all know “those people” don’t recognize there is a problem. 🙄

[xyzcf]

Hi Believer, thanks for dropping by.

It is still hard for me to understand how we went from a very loving and happy couple to this, seemingly overnight. He is a stranger to me.

It has taken me an extremely long time … longer than I had hoped to get to where I am, endless hours in therapy, and tough strategies to rebuild my emotional and financial self.  I still think about ExH often, more so for what he’s lost, recognizing he’s running from doing any work on himself and that this truly didn’t have anything to do with me at all.

This is also rather a mystery for I never thought I would still ache for what once was....lots of therapy, lots of exploring life and lots of sadness for the family that doesn't exist anymore.

Nothing though compared to the first few years....and for that I am grateful.

My daughter and I are also very close...we just spent 5 days with her husband and his mom in Florida to celebrate Mother's Day and it was such a great time. I feel blessed that we appreciate one another. He is missing out on so much.

She said she really doesn’t miss him, he’s not the father she knew.

That for me is such an incredibly sad part of this whole experience. It’s also a reminder to me that indeed it’s an MLC he’s experiencing. He was an amazing father (and husband) prior.

My daughter would agree. He is not the dad she knew. Her husband never met the pre MLC man. Last summer, visiting some close friends who knew us before she was born, there were lots of stories being told about back then. Both she and her husband enjoyed hearing about the dad she remembers, the FIL that her husband has never seen.

Enjoy your visit out East!

[HeartTattoo]

Believer,

Thanks for updating. I think it is good for us to touch base with our cohorts once in a while to compare notes, but I seldom get on the site & neglected to update my own thread this year near BD anniversary like I did for a few years. Once you get several years past the shock, pain, & horror of it all & you realize you will never “figure it out”, that a loyal spouse's MLC behavior & infidelity will never, ever make sense, there just isn't much to say about it anymore.

My situation sounds similar to yours. H & OW 6 years M'ed now & early on spent some years in a commuter-type arrangement, working & living in two different towns. H's address has changed in the last couple of years, but I now know nothing of their life together & don't seek to know. Our last communication was several months ago when he asked me to “tell S#1 he loved him & would love to see him”. Apparently S#1 doesn't answer any of his communications. I told him I was no longer in a role to be his advocate & that I couldn't fix this for him.

I admire that you are trying to form a “more comfortable” relationship with your H for the sake of your D. One of the things I hate the most about all of this is that my family is broken, the interconnecting relationships between parents, between sons/parents, the family as a whole functioning unit, is broken. My limitation is that I would never form a more comfortable R with H as long as the OW/new W is in the picture. My H I see as a broken person who was caught (let himself be caught) in a web of MLC & an addictive R with the OW. I always extended the potential of forgiveness & a healed R out to him. The OW is another matter to me. I will never “forgive” her; I don't care what they say about forgiveness. She was wrecking a family & knew it--”felt a little bad about that” as she sought understanding from an old friend who was also a friend of mine.

I'm glad you are enjoying retirement & making post-Covid plans. I too retired right before Covid hit which was fortunate for a nurse, but halted retirement plans. Enjoy your travel plans!

This experience has changed me, has changed the trajectory of my life. I am not a better person for having persevered through it, my life is not better for it; it's just different & I am different. We have to live life as it happens. The difference is we live an intentional life, unlike the MLCer who just “falls” into confusion & denial & an addictive band-aid R.

Hugs,
HT

[Treasur]

Once you get several years past the shock, pain, & horror of it all & you realize you will never “figure it out”, that a loyal spouse's MLC behavior & infidelity will never, ever make sense, there just isn't much to say about it anymore.

Amen to that, HT. And tbh I hope there is a kind of hope for newbies to find in that even if it is a different kind of Hope than they come here searching for. I am a few years behind you....have to count how many years now, idk, six or seven?...and letting my former h vanish into the mist bc we have no kids was what worked for me. I can honestly say that, except on quite rare occasions when something prods a memory, I spend no time at all even musing on whether he is alive or dead. My head is full of my own life challenges and joys....that’s enough.

But I honestly think that accepting that I simply did not know and could not understand what happened to my h, and consequently my life, and therefore could not foresee it or change it was a big important step in my own healing. Seeing it perhaps like rain....I may not understand why it rains but I can see that it is and decide to stay inside or pick up an umbrella  but life is much easier without feeling it might rain hand grenades at any given moment lol.

[Believer]

Thanks XYZCF, HT and Treasur for your comments 

HT, I can appreciate your stance about the OW/Wife scenario. I have no respect for the one my exH has landed with either. The term manipulator is often used by people who know her, so that tells me all I need to know. Fortunately, I don’t have to see her and I’m not interested in building any relationship with her.
My daughter has made it clear to her father that when they celebrate Christmas she is celebrating it with him and her Grandma and that the new wife and her kids are not invited. That’s been happening so I’m proud that she has been able to set boundaries that work.

I’m similar to you as well, I honestly don’t feel that my life is better as a result of this.  It’s as you shared ..changed ..changed my life and changed me. Yes, I work very hard at seeing the good in each day and some things I am better at than I was. However the laughter I express isn’t as deep and free flowing as it was. I trust less, and I feel a melancholy ache in my heart for all that was lost.

XY,
Yes, sometimes I still find myself in a stage of wondering…how did this happen, what could I have done, where did the H I know go, and how could he be distant with our child…

That wondering is still there after 13 years, the difference now is I am able to shift my thoughts from it quickly and more clearly. As you expressed thankfully  the intensity of it has dissipated as compared to the beginning of it all.
I believe as much as we continue to live our lives as best we are able the questions will still linger just more muted by our acceptance that they are different.

Treasur,  you explained it so well when you said that accepting you could not know or understand what happened to your H and therefore everything else as a result. I guess if we could have we may have been in our own crisis..
The rain analogy is spot on - thank you for that.

Hugs to all,
Believer

[Trustandlove]

Hi, all,

I have just had an odd experience which I guess I want to write about here, perhaps to try to understand it a bit.   

My story is an old one; my former H left 15 years ago.  I think he took the prize here for the most OWs; he married the 6th one, now a number of years ago.  Before that he went through them at an alarming rate.

I have long since built a life; that is besides the point. 

I haven't seen him in over 5 years, our now young adult children very rarely see him.  We don't have any contact, not even about the children.  I really don't know anything about his life; the odd photo pops up on social media which really doesn't enlighten me.   Our children don't know anything either beyond that he now has a dog, the times they do meet they don't seem to learn anything about him.  I have no idea if he is happy or not, but as best as any of us can tell he appears settled in the life he now has.

And then today he texts.  To say that an old acquaintance/friend has passed away.  This is someone I did know, but never considered at all close; why on earth he would text me to say so?  And yes, the text was meant for me, he started it with my name.  He finishes by wishing me a happy birthday for tomorrow.  He hasn't acknowledged my birthday since he left, beyond helping the children with my presents when they still needed that, which is now many years ago. 

Of course this doesn't mean anything in particular (and I'm not trying to taste the colour green with my elbow), but it's still odd.  And a few weeks ago he had texted our son saying "mum's birthday is coming up, Auntie ____ wants to know if she will be home for it".  Auntie ____ is his sister, with whom I have a cordial, if distant, relationship, but enough that if she wanted to know if I was going to be home she could text to ask.  I can't imagine that she would really have asked him to find out, she must know we don't speak.   And why on earth would he and his sister have even brought me up in conversation?  It's a non-subject. 

I haven't responded.  Mainly because I can't figure out how.  Saying "I'm sorry for your loss, thank you for the birthday wishes" is just ludicrous. 

I looked up the guy who died; it seems that former H had also posted publicly about his death, saying how much he missed him.  But I don't think they were even that close, an earlier post from the man said that it was "a nice surprise" to see him (meaning to see my former H). 

Many years ago another acquaintance of his died; this was someone I knew about, but had never met.   At that time it wasn't that many years after BD, I said things such as "oh, I'm so sorry, that must be hard for you", etc.  The kinds of things you would say if you were being supportive.  But that isn't appropriate here, not in the least. 

I guess this is just to show that even many years later a little thing can still give us pause.  And that they can still be very strange even after many years.  Ultimately what he does or doesn't feel about this person's death is for him, but why on earth text me?

Is he wanting comfort/condolences? Does he think that because so much time has passed that it's all OK, that we would share memories?   That isn't my role, that is now the OWs.  They live near the guy who died, surely she would be the one to go to?

So even if it is many years later, this still gave me quite the surprise. 

So that is my odd experience.  Is there a way to understand/respond to things like that?  Of course it's easy to say "he's still nuts, not my circus, not my monkeys", but besides that?   

[HeartTattoo]

T&L,

Yes, very odd. I think some of these things point to the brain dysfunction some of us feel is involved in MLC. MLCers don't seem to think very carefully about what is appropriate or not. Of course, the biggest “inappropriate” thing they do is run from their M's, giving no effort towards exploring or resolving whatever feeble or ridiculous excuses they come up with for what is so wrong with their M's.

They don't seem to analyze very carefully what hooking up with whatever OW they have will lead to (& yes, yours must take the cake for a record number of OWs!). About 6 months after BD I rather sarcastically said (although he didn't pick up on the sarcasm), “You're giving up a lot. I hope it's worth it.” His serious reply was “Yes, I know. I hope so too...I think it will be.” You THINK it will be?! With all the devastation you should have known you would cause, you THINK it will be!

And then they continue to puzzle us with such messages as you have had, even when they are pretty much Vanishers, as mine is & as yours seems to be. I've gotten a handful of these types of messages over the 9 years since BD. The first couple I completely ignored. The last one involved him trying to enlist me to repair his R with S#1. I replied, reminding him that such advocacy was not my job any more & that he was on his own with that.

How you reply, or whether you reply, I think makes no difference, IMO. They must surely have some regrets, at least occasionally, & their actions have had such enormous consequences for people they once loved, & indeed, life has moved on for all involved. So, what actions can they take to make anyone (& in their world, most importantly themselves) “feel better”? They seem to get little spurts where they try to do a little good deed, like sending you some “news” or, in my case, passing on an acquaintance's message to me, that she admired me, even though it must have been a bit of a dig at him.

Continuing weirdness, continuing mysteries of MLC.
Hugs to you,
HT

[Treasur]

I haven't responded.  Mainly because I can't figure out how.  Saying "I'm sorry for your loss, thank you for the birthday wishes" is just ludicrous. 

I have no idea why he did these things. Makes sense that you don’t either.
Perhaps the strange ‘gift’ from them is the reminder of what is normal in your world and what is not, appropriate behaviour by other humans and not, of your baseline bc I suspect it gets a bit muddied for all of us for a while.
But the fact that you have no idea what you might say which doesn’t seem ludicrous is probably a pretty good sign that you are in a healthier saner place than you once were. That it is almost like that awkward feeling when a strange man on a train tells you he is Bonaparte......and wants to chat about it......you don’t want to be mean to an evidently troubled kind of person but what on earth does one say to that? 
And that reminder of a healthy baseline imho is not nothing 

I think perhaps there is a difference in trying to taste green when one has an objective or are still trying to decipher MLC code to influence them or protect oneself in the early days/years vs that slight sense of ‘well that’s weird’ that seems to come when these folks pop up and do something like this years later. It’s a pretty normal human reaction, isn’t it? I guess one just has to check in with oneself that the speculation doesn’t take up an inappropriate amount of head/life space.

[Trustandlove]

Thank you, HT and treasur -- HT, I think of you and in particular how you worded your last response to your former H, regarding your S.  I will remember that if such a situation comes up, I thought it was great!  Treasur, I always value your words and insights. 

And yes, it's all now just weird, rather than anything else.  One friend of mine who knows the situation thought that for whatever reason, he wanted to say happy birthday, but felt he couldn't contact me (the guilt that you speak of) unless he had some other "news" to impart.  Another theory was that he was somehow harking back to old memories, all of which involve me, again perhaps those regrets that you speak of bubbling to the surface. 

A handful of times over the years he has said that he feels guilty, when I ask for what he says "for everything", which is of course a non-answer.  So it may just have been that cropping up again, and, like you say, him wanting to feel better, which has been the case before. 

He has tried that with our D; who just says that he is in "woe is me" mode, wanting some kind of reassurance, which she doesn't give.  Sad that it's all still that way even after many years.  Sad that he has had so many opportunities to make a difference, and that it's still all about making himself feel better. 

In any case it makes no particular difference; in the end I opted to just say thank you, no punctuation, no mention of anything, and that is the end of that. 

Thank you for reading!

[MadLuv]

Whats the old saying about being on your death bed and all your regrets come into play? Maybe the death of his friend triggered some small thought of regret with you, but if it had he certainly didn’t take the opportunity to address it still. I’m also not sure how you respond to a death and birthday message. I guess If I replied it would be “very sorry to hear about ( name) “ and not address the birthday at all

[xyzcf]

in the end I opted to just say thank you, no punctuation, no mention of anything, and that is the end of that.

That was a good way to respond and it corresponds to what you wanted.

I really do not think we can say why they do things. Our "theories" are only that, theories.

I do know that they do not forget us. They may "need" some kind of excuse to contact us and perhaps these sorts of messages create in them a sense of "peace".....they are not able it seems to engage in a normal relationship with us, but that doesn't mean they do not think about us and in my opinion, they may even care about us in a way that we cannot understand.

Thanks for the update. As we have said, MLC is the "gift that keeps on giving".

[Mitzpah]

Hello there, this is the only thread I still get updates on. I apologize for being so absent, it is not that I don't want to communicate with you all, because you know that I am still in the throes of this crisis.

I agree with most that we cannot really make any sense of what they do and say after so long.

I think your reply was quite sufficient.

By the way, happy birthday!!

I will see if I have time later to update my thread - not that anything has changed really. I had face to face contact with my beloved yesterday, he came to work on a motorbike with my eldest son. I welcomed them and then left to go to church and that was that

Love to you all old timers!!

[Trustandlove]

Yes, MLC is the gift that keeps on giving.

I'm now seeing some of the deeper effects it has had on our children; for years it was just keeping them on an even keel, getting them through school, navigating the actual things that were happening.  Now that they are taking their first steps into the real world the deeper issues start to show -- how they feel about themselves, their own relationships, their own trust issues, all that.

It really does have an effect, no matter how much we say that they are resilient, no matter how hard we work to keep things normal for them, no matter how "good" we are at dealing with everything.   Everyone goes through this bit about finding their feet, but I have seen quite a bit that can only be attributed to this mess, and it both breaks my heart and makes me angry.  Yet my former H doesn't seem to consider this at all, which I know is "normal" for MLCers. 

I have my wistful moments; as we all age there are things that I would so very much like to talk to my H about -- and I mean my H, the person I loved and married, the only person who could possibly get it, not the person who now inhabits his body.  But of course I don't call.  I see my friends, mostly couples, looking at all the things to do together as children are growing up and see that my life is different.  My children wish that they had a father to talk to, they do know that if they were to call he wouldn't be what they want.  So they don't.  It's our reality.

But not everything is about MLC; who knows what other things life might have thrown at us if he hadn't left, I'm sure I would have had my wistful moments about other things even if he were here, even if he were the person I always believed he was.  I wouldn't say that life is better, but I have made it the best it can be under the circumstances.  Financially it is definitely harder.  But I adjust my expectations.

And I have also learned to deal with difficulties better, that I will say.  I don't collapse the way I once would have.   So small things!

But I do still read here, and keep learning; now it seems more about passing on things to my children as they deal with their difficulties, but what I learn here is still very relevant, and I am glad for it. 

It's nice to "speak" to people! 

[HeartTattoo]

T&L,

I could have written nearly every word of your last message. The thing I hate the most about all of this (and of course I hate every bit of it quite a lot!) is that my family is broken & my boys have been so hurt by this, in ways that frustrate them & in ways I don't think they even appreciate yet.

After BD a friend referred me to a friend of hers that she realized had gone through something quite similar. It had been maybe 8-10 years since her BD & we talked on the phone for a long time. Me, still holding out the hope that H would come home & she, realistically doubting that. Anyway, the thing that sticks with me to this day is that her S & D were late teens at BD, one just out of HS & one finishing HS, when her H left. Now, those years later neither had formed any bond with any partner. Now, I know that some folks want to remain single, etc, etc. But...

The nature of MLC distorts everything, of course for us, but also for our kids no matter their ages. I think especially for the teen or young adult MLC-affected child they have difficulty reconciling what they have come to believe about their parents & their parents' R, & how that has affected the way they see themselves conducting a R with a partner. My younger S said as much in our one family counseling session.

I so often think...If only I had known that he was "unhappy", if only he had talked to me, if only he hadn't confided in someone outside our M. It seems that all of this damage could somehow be prevented. But, no, it is the very nature of MLC, that none of that happens; there is no preventive action that can be taken.

Big Sigh. Hugs to all.
Hello, Mitzpah! Good to see you here.
HT

[UrsaMajor]

I so often think...If only I had known that he was "unhappy", if only he had talked to me, if only he hadn't confided in someone outside our M. It seems that all of this damage could somehow be prevented. But, no, it is the very nature of MLC, that none of that happens; there is no preventive action that can be taken.

This is some down-home, tent-revival, Bible-thumping, Gospel-preaching truth.... "If Only..... <fill-in-the-blank>, all this could have been prevented."  Nope... Unfortunately not. Because there was never a chance for "If only...."  MLC made sure of that ... And so often, the kids are the victims... My D32 (from xW/MLC1) has also never formed any kind of real bond. She had one sort of LTR in college for a few months but that was all...

[KellBell]

I've read that divorce and broken families can leave ripple effects through up to 7 generations. I thought- no way! But then I look back at grandparents who divorced or a parent that walked away...and definitely. My xh's grandma was left. She raised his mom by herself in the 40s on a farm. His mom was raised with little love and forced to grow up quickly. So when raising my xh, his mom was very rigid and lacked showing outward affection and praise to him. He was left with low self esteem and his relationship with his parents was more a social structure than loving and warm. And now his relationship with his kids. He did so great while they were younger, but as they grew into young adults- he got lost on what to do and how to treat them. No idea on how to parent- didn't want to follow his parent's example but wasn't sure what else to do. Feels insecure and unsure. And left them. Now my girls are experiencing trust issues and insecurities of their own.
 And that's just one example in our family. My mom's parents divorced- she didn't even know her dad until she met him for the first time in her 20s. She spent her whole childhood striving to be worthy of love. Because she felt her dad left because she wasn't enough in some way. She is still dealing with this. People pleasing and settling because something is better than nothing. She settled for my dad and he left her with three kids under 3. I thought it had the opposite affect on me, because I became self sufficient and independent. But now I see I settled too. I settled for someone who did not deserve me and yet I went above and beyond to make our family and marriage work. I settled for someone who doesn't deserve our children. And now they are dealing with a dad that left them. It breaks my heart.

So yes...broken homes, divorce and abandonment will send shock waves through 7 generations. And I'm so sorry for my kids. Because MLC just adds another level of f*cked up-edness to all this. So much damage.

[Trustandlove]

Hello all -- me again,

I just re-read what I had written 18 months ago, as I'm seeing the effects on my children more again.  My children are young adults now; mid-twenties.  And when I think that they were little children when this all started!

What is happening now is that my former H is suddenly badgering, for lack of a better word, one of my sons.  He has texted saying "I don't know what I have done to you in the last 6 months, why are you blanking me?" or words to that effect.  Followed by "I would do literally anything for you".  That last bit made my son furious.

Back in the spring this son had finally had enough, and said that he didn't want to see his father any more; he has tried for years to say how he feels, but has felt shot down every single time.  He now looks at these texts with anger -- saying that how on earth can his F not think that he has not done anything wrong? 

My daughter has also had enough; she had an incident back in the summer that left her in tears saying "I can't do this any more, I can't take the disappointment". 

Other son is going through so much of his own heartbreak that he has no time to deal with H; he is starting to realise that what happened when they were children has had a profound effect on him -- his father ditched all responsibilities, and my S tends to take on far more than he needs to.  It really is a mess.  This S did see him over the holidays, and it was just more of the same.  Former H was nice to him, but boasted that he was doing well in business, and then got them token gifts from a cheap store.  Just no sense whatsoever. 

I just try to be there for my children; I can't do anything and, unlike what HT got, my former H hasn't asked me for help.  If he were to, my response would be pretty much exactly what HT wrote -- so thank you, HT, I may have cause to use that!

I'm not writing for any particular advice; I'm the oldest old-timer here, I think.  But all this has made me profoundly sad again; nothing has changed at all.   I cried over this for the first time in quite a while. 

My suspicion is that something has (again) gone wrong in his life, so he is grasping for the children. That kind of thing is what we experienced before.  This time I have reason to suspect that he is no longer with OW6, who he married, although he hasn't said anything to the children. 

We can go on about them swirling around in the mess until they really do decide to look at themselves and do the work, but I guess in many cases, at least in mine, nothing changes, and my children are left to pay the price. 

I don't want to frighten anyone who is early on in this process, I do believe that redemption and reconciliation are possible.  There is much wisdom on this site, and it has helped me beyond measure with both this crisis and in so many other areas of life.

x

[Trustandlove]

I should add that the son that is being "badgered" has an assortment of special needs, particularly with regards to language.  He finds it hard to regulate his emotions as well, and often just screams "I don't know" when he can't find another way to express himself.  This is something that H never really got to grips with, even when things were "normal".  And now former H has been gone so long that he really has no idea. 

That son presents very well, and has done well in life so far despite everything, which, paradoxically doesn't help much in this case. 

I'm just sad that they have to go through this, I'm sad that any of us ever had to. 

[FaithWalker]

The collateral damage when it comes to our children definitely does affect them years on.  I see this with my 20 something's too.  I'm worried about my D and her new BF.  She may have subconsciously picked someone like her F.

S18 was upset the other day because his F had a very deep, meaningful conversation with D's BF when meeting him at Thanksgiving.  He said to me "M, in my 18 years of life, F has never once gone that deep with me."  It was heartbreaking to hear and to see that he was upset by this.  He dislikes D's BF immensely, and this just added some fuel to the fire for him.

It seems that years on T&L, that your MLCer still views himself as the "victim".  It's so hard for our kiddos because their parents should be the mature ones.  Sadly, this doesn't seem to be the case in MLCers.

[xyzcf]

It really does have a huge impact on our children.

WE really need to be the stable one for them.

Good to hear from you Trustandlove

[limitless]

My kids are all in their 30’s now. (They were 16 and 20 when their father left).

Their relationship with their Dad is very strained.  He tries to push his new/old wife on them. The two of them have this delusion that they are all a family. 

He lies, tells half truths.  He tries to make them feel guilty. They dread spending time with him. 

None of my kids are married.  My twins each have relationships.  My older daughter is single.  I hope that they haven't been disillusioned with marriage.  Marriage is a wonderful thing.  Not everyone will have an MLC.

Their Dad is a lost cause. 

It’s all unfortunate. 

Nice to hear from you gals

L

[MadLuv]

I also see the damage to the kids as adults. My son appreciates me more, my daughter who had her father on a pedestal has disconnected with us all. She has anxiety and the situation is easier for her to escape and avoid like her father. My XH is a always the victim. He is comfortable there and he uses it to escape and he uses it to establish new relationships in his crisis.

I hate that my kids now look at their father as something mentally they may have in them. If that makes sense.  When you once thought your parent was a stable force that gave you confidence and  strength, now becomes a flaw and a lie.  In life you should always be able to count on your parents love and support. Scary to think you never knew them. Much like we ourselves view how we see them now, so do our children.

[kikki]

I'm seeing the effects on my late 20's sons here too.  One has lived overseas for 5 years, one for a year, and the youngest is heading overseas in a couple of months time.  I felt very lucky that they were all here (including the girlfriends) for Christmas and a week or two afterwards.  In recent years, they have been busy focussing on themselves, their careers, their own relationships and friends, rather than their Dad being much of a presence in their lives.  He wasn't able to be such a destructive force as when they were teens.  Their time with him consisted of occasional meals, lasting a couple of hours at most - while their Dad presented them with his new superficial, glossy life filled with shiny expensive things.  I completely understand that they want a 'normal' and stable father, especially when they have 50% of his genetics, and all of the potential implications that brings. And because he abandoned them as teens, they all seemed to have negotiated some sort of new relationship with him as young adults, while I got very used to not saying a thing, hoping for the best, while knowing the likelihood of them being let down once again, was a very real potential.
They seem to be pretty good at keeping him at arms length emotionally, and expecting things to only go so deep with him - a reasonable place to have your expectations at.  They have given up trying to discuss things more deeply with MLC him, and it is clear that an apology to his sons will never exit his lips.
I noticed a shift in that dynamic this year. Their Dad suddenly seemed to want to reach out to them, not in any meaningful way for them, but for himself.  He turned 61 this year and despite the gloss, his life appears devoid of anyone that could be described as genuine.  So with them all being home, it meant a lot of negotiating dinners - as we suddenly had a lot of dinners to navigate around that he wanted the boys involved in too. 
I initially assumed that maybe he was becoming more normal (after all, it has been 13 years), and perhaps was realising how much he had missed out on by going awol all of those years ago.  Which meant that I spent time talking firmly to myself about learning to share the boys with him, when I had never really had to do that much before. 
But sadly, the cracks quickly showed.  The boys say very little - but the two youngest say enough for me to know that things are not great - their Dad's mood swings are huge, and he often makes them feel very uncomfortable, and they call him  'a grumpy old man' and they realise how his 'negative, controlling opinions have impacted them over the years'.  One said that it's good that he can no longer aim that at me, and said 'someone else will be getting it now' - meaning the OW. 
It is always reassuring to hear that I have always been, and will continue to be home for them.  Even though it still makes me very sad that any of us had to experience this horror. 
I find the girlfriends are the ones that will often tell me the most.  Not that I have any interest in seeking information, just that they have a need to share their own experience with me, and in doing so, their understanding of how strange the shift in personality and behaviour must have been for us all, as they themselves have now seen the mask fall right off.
This happened when middle son's girlfriend said that her parents had sent a very small Christmas gift to my ex-H (I had been given a lovely gift box from them) and she said that she felt very awkward giving it to him, and instantly regretted it, as apparently he became very angry and verbally abusive, and told her to 'never, ever do that again'. 
Luckily all three of the boys were there, and told their Dad to stop.  She went outside and middle son went out to be with her and was absolutely furious that his dad would have done that to her (that same old behaviour we have all experienced since BD). 
Apparently, my exH then came out to talk to her, no apology, no acknowledgement, but started quizzing her about unrelated 'stuff' in a happy happy joy joy way.  She said it was so false and awkward, and she has never liked him or felt close to him, but had always put up with him for middle son's sake.
What a mess of their own (MLCer's) making.  I had hoped for a happier outcome for my sons (in regards to their Dad). 

[Trustandlove]

So lovely to see you pop up on this thread, kikki!  -- I always felt like we were in the trenches together.  I am glad that your boys have good relationships of their own, and it is a given that you have always been the stable one for them.  And continue to be.

Since I last wrote I found out that my former H had been to see one son, and that this son finally got up the courage to say what he thought.

This is all volunteered by my S, by the way, after the fact -- I didn't know that they had met.

Apparently former H had started out saying that he had screwed up by leaving them, but that had quickly descended into blaming me again.  S said that he told his dad to stop, and just listen.  That H had never put them first. He said more as well, but I wasn't there.   S said that after the dinner he reflected and realised that nothing had changed; he said that H had seemed a bit desperate (grasping?).  S said that he had no empathy whatsoever for them. 

The one thing that particularly grated was that he told S that he had left because of me, that he didn't want to be with me, not that he didn't want them.  And he has then for the past goodness knows how many years shown them that he has absolutely and completely left them as well.  It's bad enough telling your kids that you just don't want to be with their mother  (i.e. he just wants what he wants, when he wants it, and so on), but to try to say that it's my fault (apparently I didn't let him see them -- anyone who might have known me then knows that I bent over backwards to try to include H in everything, probably even when I shouldn't have, that he had complete and unfettered access, etc.) is beyond the pale. 

Sorry, that sounded a bit vitriolic, it still makes me angry just writing it.  And also because it confirms that it really is a lost cause...

My experience has always been that this kind of thing means that something isn't good in his life; we may or may not eventually find out what it is this time.

Why he feels the need to blame me after so many, many years is completely bonkers.  As far as we can tell he has got And I feel so empty again, pretty much realising that the selfish qualities (that we often here compare to narcissism) that came to the forefront at BD have never  changed, he has got exactly nowhere. 

I, too, had hoped for a happier outcome for them, but that just isn't to be.  They were small when he left, there just isn't any relationship left to salvage there....

Thank you to everyone for reading!

[Trustandlove]

I just realised that I need to clarify -- the S that I said that my former H was badgering is not the one who he met for dinner, that I wrote about above.  I need to find a way to identify them better without giving exact ages!  Perhaps  just S1 and S2 -- so S2 was the one who was being "badgered", and S1 had dinner with him a few days ago. 

[Ready2Transform]

This happened when middle son's girlfriend said that her parents had sent a very small Christmas gift to my ex-H (I had been given a lovely gift box from them) and she said that she felt very awkward giving it to him, and instantly regretted it, as apparently he became very angry and verbally abusive, and told her to 'never, ever do that again'. 
Luckily all three of the boys were there, and told their Dad to stop.  She went outside and middle son went out to be with her and was absolutely furious that his dad would have done that to her (that same old behaviour we have all experienced since BD). 
Apparently, my exH then came out to talk to her, no apology, no acknowledgement, but started quizzing her about unrelated 'stuff' in a happy happy joy joy way.  She said it was so false and awkward, and she has never liked him or felt close to him, but had always put up with him for middle son's sake.

    There are no words.

I've "seen" so many of your children become adults via this forum, and it makes me sad for you all that your families still have to navigate this. But it speaks volumes that you've all stepped up and done the work of two parents and prepared them for a life where hopefully none of them tip into MLC themselves.

[WHY]

This happened when middle son's girlfriend said that her parents had sent a very small Christmas gift to my ex-H (I had been given a lovely gift box from them) and she said that she felt very awkward giving it to him, and instantly regretted it, as apparently he became very angry and verbally abusive, and told her to 'never, ever do that again'. 
Luckily all three of the boys were there, and told their Dad to stop.  She went outside and middle son went out to be with her and was absolutely furious that his dad would have done that to her (that same old behaviour we have all experienced since BD). 
Apparently, my exH then came out to talk to her, no apology, no acknowledgement, but started quizzing her about unrelated 'stuff' in a happy happy joy joy way.  She said it was so false and awkward, and she has never liked him or felt close to him, but had always put up with him for middle son's sake.

    There are no words.

I've "seen" so many of your children become adults via this forum, and it makes me sad for you all that your families still have to navigate this. But it speaks volumes that you've all stepped up and done the work of two parents and prepared them for a life where hopefully none of them tip into MLC themselves.

This is my greatest fear.  The only thing I’ve ever cared about are my kids.   They don’t deserve this.   

I intend to create a thread at some point to discuss what the best way to tell the kids about D is (ie the narrative). I’m not falling on my sword saying it’s a joint decision.   But I’m not going to cause conflict at their expense either.  The vets here must know of a good way to do it.  More to be discussed at a later stage. 

[kikki]

Hi T&L, we absolutely have been in the trenches together, and your post inspired me to write down what I was pondering re the boys' Dad. 

It's really curious that your exH was aware enough that he at least had to put on a bit of a show of empathy for your son, but the wheels soon fell off that it would seem, as again you are the default blame setting.

It's infuriating hearing the gaslighting they are still doing - I know how you also bent over backwards to try to include your exH.  I recently heard from an old flatmate from my youth, who we haven't seen in years, that my exH told him that our company was all his (and all of his own grit) and that he had shared care of our boys with me.  Such enormous porkie pies.  You'd think we should be able to roll with the metaphorical 'punches' after all of these years, but I do think when you've managed to finally escape their grasp and control, and carry on with as normal a life as possible, it comes as a shock to be dragged back into their fantasy world and untruths.
Don't be sorry for being angry that the pain and sorrow is still a possibility at times, especially where our children are concerned.

My experience has always been that this kind of thing means that something isn't good in his life; we may or may not eventually find out what it is this time.

We see this same pattern.  It could be that work tends to be very rare in January - and he possibly doesn't know what to do with himself - plus he'll be worrying that this is the end of his career - the classic concern of the freelancer. But one son mentioned December was also quiet.  Or it could just be that he is 61, with vast volumes of shame that he lives with, and minimal amounts of self esteem. These MLCers don't tend to age with much grace.

I too am shocked that he seemed to have zero traction towards any healing for himself.  I honestly was thinking he might be over the worst, and was trying to reconnect with the boys and make amends. 

Thanks for clarifying.  S1 and S2 would work  

Thank you Ready2T.  You have been like their wise 'Aunt' all of these years, and for that I am very grateful.  Would have been a far wobblier navigation without you.

WHY, my mantra always was that I wanted my children screwed up as little as possible from the effects of their father's crisis and implosion.  I tried to mitigate the damage at every turn.  We can buffer them a great deal from a lot of it, but not all.  I even have to wonder if this is why they are happy to dip their toes into his world at times, because they weren't aware of as much of it?  They now have to work this out for themselves, and readjust their expectations once again, but as always, we continue to be here with our safety, security and listening ear.

Re the D conversation.  I made it very clear to our boys, that it was a unilateral decision that my exH was making.  He was so 'out there and off the charts' with his new behaviour, they knew things were very strange. 

he one thing that particularly grated was that he told S that he had left because of me, that he didn't want to be with me, not that he didn't want them.  And he has then for the past goodness knows how many years shown them that he has absolutely and completely left them as well.  It's bad enough telling your kids that you just don't want to be with their mother  (i.e. he just wants what he wants, when he wants it, and so on), but to try to say that it's my fault (apparently I didn't let him see them -- anyone who might have known me then knows that I bent over backwards to try to include H in everything, probably even when I shouldn't have, that he had complete and unfettered access, etc.) is beyond the pale.

Why he feels the need to blame me after so many, many years is completely bonkers.  As far as we can tell he has got And I feel so empty again, pretty much realising that the selfish qualities (that we often here compare to narcissism) that came to the forefront at BD have never  changed, he has got exactly nowhere.

This from T and L sums up exactly how most of these conversations go. 
My exH insisted on speaking to the boys himself about us separating (bearing in mind that I am still waiting for our conversation regarding separating - between my exH and myself) - this was before I found this forum, and I regret allowing that to happen, because this is exactly how that conversation went - it was all my fault, he never wanted to marry me, he did it because our parents expected it, he was so unhappy and he deserved to be happy - as he waltzed off into the sunset on his vespa, and many long haul holidays overseas - ignoring his sons. The boys were distraught and knew it was untrue.  They had also lived in our family for all of those years.

So my advice, if you can agree on a narrative beforehand, that would be good (but don't necessarily expect a MLCer to stick to it) and do not agree to letting them have the conversation with the kids alone.

[WHY]

I mean the second she moves out and we have 50/50 kids after D, she’s gonna have that conversation daily with them.  I’m not sure how to navigate this.  I refuse to accept my kids will suffer damage from added bad behavior like this.  It’s bad enough they have to deal with D. But having one parent spin BS and mess with their minds.  I will go to mattresses.   

[kikki]

That is a very tricky one WHY.  I am forever grateful that I had the kids 100% of the time.  As you suggested, it would be a good topic for a discussion thread as I'm sure many people have had to navigate this exact situation.  And no doubt it varies depending on the kids ages.

[Trustandlove]

I, too, always made it clear that it was completely H's decision, this of course was made completely clear by the fact that he left right at BD, and that I had the kids 100% of the time, like kikki.  I remember way back when, he had just been gone a few months, and my D asked him about it, and he just told her that he had a new life now.  Awful for her to hear, but at least it confirmed that it was about him.   

The only thing that my former H ever gave me a reasonably clear answer on was that he wanted me to raise the kids.  So when he monstered about not liking something about it, saying that they "weren't like others their age" (yes, really, and more besides), I was at least able to say that if he wanted me to raise them he had to trust my parenting.

When it all started I remember S2, who was 10 at the time, screaming at me to "apologise and get Dad back"; that stopped quickly, however, as even as little children they saw that it was H who had disappeared.

My MLCer kept saying that he wanted us to sit down with them to tell them, but that never happened.  It took him 9 years to divorce me (he had gone through many OWs by then, it turned out that he married number 6), and he did tell at least S2 (H uses the divide and conquer method, never speaking to them together) that the divorce had been final.  So in some ways that made it easier.

My default "speech" was that I was far from perfect, but that I couldn't stop H from leaving and that I couldn't know what was in his head.  That my priority was and would always be to be there for them.  I remember a counsellor saying that a neutral way was "when someone is unhappy they can either figure out how to be happy where they are, or leave.  H chose to leave." 

I don't know what is going on with my former H right now; as I said a few posts ago I have reason to believe that he might not be with OW6 any longer, but in reality I don't know.  My kids have never met her btw, he tried to force S2 to do so some years ago but he refused. So even they don't know.  FWIW we don't even know exactly where he lives, he has told them conflicting things....  In any case what is written about narcissistic supply does come to mind; he seems to be grasping for some....   

Kikki, you always had my back when I needed it through the worst of it all, I still often think of you, on the other side of the world!

x

[Ready2Transform]

Thank you Ready2T.  You have been like their wise 'Aunt' all of these years, and for that I am very grateful.  Would have been a far wobblier navigation without you.

Right back at you, my sister from the future (at least 19 hours. )! 

[WHY]

From the fog stories from the other side.  Is there any pattern to HOW the MLCer's fog lifts? 

Forget asking when.  There is no when in la-la land.  Time has no concept. 

But as for HOW.  Ive read about rock bottom (but RCR says they can keep digging).  Or Hearts Blessing's "real or perceived sense of loss". 

But what about Shocksis and others that have come through it.  What do they actually say was the trigger for their awakening?  What happens that causes them to finally stop escaping and look inward?

[kikki]

But as for HOW.  Ive read about rock bottom (but RCR says they can keep digging).  Or Hearts Blessing's "real or perceived sense of loss".

But what about Shocksis and others that have come through it.  What do they actually say was the trigger for their awakening?  What happens that causes them to finally stop escaping and look inward?

WHY, that really would have to be in the category of rhetorical question - in my opinion, and in my experience.

From what I have seen, there are a million different reasons for someone going into crisis, and what it looks like and for how long that is, is unique to each individual.   Personally, I think the people who come out the other side appear to be more on the spectrum of mid life transitioners, vs the extreme crisis that many of our former spouses had/continue to have.

[Ready2Transform]

I agree with kikki. Why does one person stop smoking when another won't even let lung cancer stop them? Some could lose everything because of gambling but would rather live in a box on the street while still trying to get the big win than quit, while others see it as a fool's game and get help before it's too late. I think most of us felt we knew our spouses well enough to predict they would run out of steam and wake up. The lesson was ours, not theirs. And we are in control as to when *we* have that awakening. What are our own personal rock bottoms in that regard?

[limitless]

Apparently former H had started out saying that he had screwed up by leaving them, but that had quickly descended into blaming me again.  S said that he told his dad to stop, and just listen.  That H had never put them first. He said more as well, but I wasn't there.   S said that after the dinner he reflected and realised that nothing had changed; he said that H had seemed a bit desperate (grasping?).  S said that he had no empathy whatsoever for them. 

The one thing that particularly grated was that he told S that he had left because of me, that he didn't want to be with me, not that he didn't want them.  And he has then for the past goodness knows how many years shown them that he has absolutely and completely left them as well.  It's bad enough telling your kids that you just don't want to be with their mother  (i.e. he just wants what he wants, when he wants it, and so on), but to try to say that it's my fault (apparently I didn't let him see them -- anyone who might have known me then knows that I bent over backwards to try to include H in everything, probably even when I shouldn't have, that he had complete and unfettered access, etc.) is beyond the pale. 

Trust & Love

What a bunch of baloney....is coming out of his mouth.

My Ex told the kids (and me) that he left ME - not them.  Funny, he then spent the next 10 years or so barely seeing them and having very little contact.  Our kids were 20, 16 and 16 at the time of BD - so it was complete baloney that i had any impact or control over how much or little he saw them.  They all had cell phones (that he paid for) - so he could contact them whenever he wanted to.

I remember you making every effort to have your Ex involved during the time your kids were growing up and schooling. 

Like mine, he was too busy with his "new/exciting life."

It is so easy and typical for the MCLer to blame the spouse.  I wonder if they ever can take responsibility for what they have done? 

I would like to think those who actually work through their crisis - make some effort to repair old relationships with their adult children.  My Ex seems to be forever stuck....  He just wants our kids to accept his new/old wife and be part of a family with the two of them.  It just doesn't work like that.  I am not sure how, exactly, it works...but forcing your adult kids to accept your affair partner as Step Mom doesn't cut it.

Hope all is well with you.

L