[marvin4242]

UM yup that exact GIF but with slightly more "colorful" word selection is right.

I responded on another thread with some thoughts on NC, limited contact, reality check, etc. Not wanting to hijack another thread I wanted to share the latest "contact" with my MLCer. As I have mentioned occasionally it took me about 1.5 years to fully let go of any concept of my wife as she was (or as I imagined she was) for 20+ years. And for a while after that I chose to have no contact with her for a few months to fully cement my new reality. Before then I would still be rather detached, being well aware of what state she was in. I always had my guard up, detached, minimal or no expectation and would lean forward only as much as she did. This would range from vanishing completely to interacting as if nothing was going on (like we used to be for decades). And even with all my care I took more cuts and bruises than I realized or wanted to acknowledge at the time. I had a pretty good understanding of what was going on, over the years I had developed a lot of skills about boundaries, self reflection, empathy etc. But still it was not great.

Since then I have had contact with her on and off, again only as far as she initiates. Right now (past 1+ years) she has been acting like things are normal, contact almost every single day, random articles, questions about what I would like/prefer about what she is doing at the house (the same one she left and swore would never come back to, now she is back to planting, redecorating, etc etc). I always respond politely and as I would with a work colleague, not even a friend really. Because she has no capacity to be a friend to anyone, including herself. And I accept this truth.

This week I was off on a trip with my GF. We have been together for over four years. My wife constantly refers to her, asks questions, and I never reply or engage. So through a sequence of texts my wife figured out i am on a trip to an area of lakes with mountains. That I was doing a small outdoor adventure, walking around scenery and climbing some small hills for views etc. And her reaction was to immediately cut me down, make comments that were designed to put me down and make herself seem much better than me, and she concluded with an off hand text that said "It seems (GFs name) is good for you."

It actually pissed me off a little. Even with all this distance thrown barbs can still sting a little. The implication was that I would never do anything for myself, that she was somehow the reason I even did anything, that obviously I was somehow encroaching in her head to the domain that she and OM are the masters off (outdoor activities). And that I would be nothing without someone else guiding me. And you have to understand all of this is so polar opposite of reality of my life for so long that I was truly confused for a few minutes. It was so insane that it had me questioning whether I am deluding myself.

So why am I saying all this? To share with others that contact with someone who is disordered has really no positive function. I think a lot of us initially need to hold on to the idea that we can somehow fix things, recover things, or at least keep some version of that very important person in our lives. To me it's like a death without a body, our mind and emotions simply refuse to accept what has really happened. But as story after story after story repeats the longer we refuse to accept what is going on the more harm we do to ourselves.

[Treasur]

Ah, the power of gaslighting and projection.....even years on, right? 

Sometimes I think interacting with disordered folks is not unlike when Gracie the cat nonchalantly jumps on the dining table when i’m eating.....she ignores both pleas and shouts to get down (usually) while pointedly looking in any direction other than my plate or acting as if she is completely involved in licking a paw or looking out of the window. But I know eventually she will try to edge in on it. She knows I know. And every time I remove her from the table, she always is outraged as if it is the very first time this has happened and I am being completely unreasonable  Cats and MLCers turn out to be a lot more predictable often than they might wish......

As my gran used to say, none so blind as those that do not want to see....

I hope your MLCer did not spoil your day, or adventurous outdoor adventures, for more than a moment or two. From a distance, it’s remarkable (and bizarre) how many MLCers seem to feel entitled to play any role in our lives or expect us to continue to play any role in ours,to feel that their opinion about anything at all post BD should carry any weight at all. Yet it seems quite often to be so even years later. Hard to see how skewed that is when we still have a We in our heads which usually seems to last for a few years......on the one hand, that can make it hard for we LBS to move further away from things that serve no good purpose for us, but on the other hand it’s a rather remarkable testimony to the strength of the original love and attachment we had for them even if they seemed to devalue that so easily. What a thing to discard as if it were nothing! But it’s also interesting to see how our own perspective evolves over time, isn’t it?

[marvin4242]

Thanks Treasur, no she did not. It was a nice reminder of "reality." And great point about how some of them pretend we are dead but then they won't leave! Not sure which is better. And ah yes the cat theory of MLC, that is perfect!

Unrelated but had to share: we lost a great under-appreciated bass player today. Some of you may have heard some of his work, but in his honor I wanted to leave this here....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FD_CtQSTPn0

[gman242]

Hey Marvin. I agree with treasur. It sounds like a lot of projection.

I think for the women MLCers (not all, but some) they learned to avoid and deal with their issues by internalizing everything to the point that they're convinced that they're the only ones who care about the house and family and if it wasn't for them, everything would fall apart.

Of course none of that is true and when your ex realized it, sounds like she blamed it on your girlfriend's influence.

I'm sure my ex was convinced I was simply holding out on her, to make her do everything, as she was so fond of yelling all the time.

It's very important for them to maintain their version of events in their head, that lets them still escape and avoid, not only their own issues, but also now probably the shame and guilt of destroying a marriage, leaving kids behind etc.

I think MLCers are big internalizers and that can and will take a toll on your body, as you all were nothing.

I wouldn't take her behavior personally. Easier said than done sometimes I know. I would just take it as a sign that she's still deep within the fog of her own issues and that's just how she's choosing to deal with them, no matter how unfair it is.

[Nas]

Unrelated but had to share: we lost a great under-appreciated bass player today. Some of you may have heard some of his work, but in his honor I wanted to leave this here....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FD_CtQSTPn0

RIP Andy.
Coincidentally, this song had been stuck in my head for the past two weeks nonstop. Maybe I had a premonition:

https://youtu.be/w3qPMe_cCJk

[Curiosity]

Marvin,

Thanks for this update. I've been thinking about this a lot, not specifically in the setting of dealing with an MLCer (though certainly it applies there) - but yes, dealing with disordered people has the potential for great harm to our well-being, with very little (probably no) potential for benefit. I made that mistake with A - I felt like I needed to understand how she'd been impacted by W's crisis, and I also felt like she could somehow understand my experience. And maybe there was some momentary benefit/closure to be gained from having a conversation. But to turn it into the foundation for a friendship... that was never going to be a good idea. It played into my "fixer" tendency, and it put me on the receiving end of her manipulation and guilt tactics.

The point is - there are a lot of things that you have done that can serve as a lesson to many of us. We don't all approach this the same way, but the idea of "cementing" the new reality is incredibly wise and healing. Sometimes that requires no contact, some people are able to get there even with an in-house MLCer.

@Treasur, I love the cat analogy - it is absolutely spot on. And gman, your point about the MLCer's tendencies toward internalizing and avoidance is also an excellent one.

Marvin, thank you for continuing to share your insights.

[MadLuv]

Wow Marvin.
First that she contacts you so often for advice and sharing and then to belittle you when she feels she has lost some control ( IMO) It brought to mind that  quote that goes, “don’t take advice from someone who’s life you wouldn’t live,” or something like that.  She screams of a person who somewhere realizes she let go of someone who cared so much about making sure she knew how loved she was and doesn’t want to lose that.  You “set the example” of how to love for someone who still  can’t figure out how to return it or appreciate it, but seems somewhere in her depths of her sole she recognizes  it ( again, just my opinion)

Glad to hear your new relationship is bringing you the love and care you deserve.

[marvin4242]

She screams of a person who somewhere realizes she let go of someone who cared so much about making sure she knew how loved she was and doesn’t want to lose that.  You “set the example” of how to love for someone who still  can’t figure out how to return it or appreciate it, but seems somewhere in her depths of her sole she recognizes  it ( again, just my opinion)

Thanks MadLuv but in my opinion we (and I know I have done it too) ascribe too many motivations or ideas to our MLCers behaviour that simply are a projection of our needs. I think we need to do that partly to make things ok or try to make sense or maybe even preserve hope. But I fear they are so broken and disordered there is not such thing at play, it is whatever is bubbling up at the moment is all there is.

[xyzcf]

In my opinion we (and I know I have done it too) ascribe too many motivations or ideas to our MLCers behaviour that simply are a projection of our needs. I think we need to do that partly to make things ok or try to make sense or maybe even preserve hope. But I fear they are so broken and disordered there is not such thing at play, it is whatever is bubbling up at the moment is all there is.

100% AGREE!

We do not know any of the reasons for why they do what they do. As the many stories here tell, their actions are bizarre and most likely mean something totally different to what we give meaning to. Or, may have absolutely no meaning at all.

Perhaps one of the benefits  to having occasional interactions with them is that it reaffirms that they are not the person we knew and loved. The word "alien" comes to mind but I actually like Ursa's description "it's like trying to taste the color green."

We all attempt to figure them out at some point. Fortunately I stopped doing that a long time ago. I think that might be a big part of "letting go" or "detachment "which we seek.

[MadLuv]

I have a question Marvin. Was wondering why do you have so much interaction with her? Since you are in a new relationship.

On the seeing things and hope. Maybe. I can see that. I personally have hope that my XH will figure something out and reengage with his kids. We do see reconnections. I’m sure not wishing on a star , however! Haha