[Onlythelonely]

Hello Everyone-

I have been a member here lurking for several years. I have had many coaching sessions with RCR, and I have reached out to a few members individually for advice. They have all helped tremendously. I have been hesitant to post publicly for several reasons, but I'm finally feel like I've exhausted my resources IRL and am going to attempt to put a very generalized post together looking for advice for the "stage" that we are in.

Very briefly- I have been married to H for 26 years. We have 3 kids in their 20's. Bomb drop was 10/18. OW found out for sure 5/20. He has moved in and out 4 times, and has currently been out for 15 months. I believe OW is done or winding down, (but I have been fooled before).
There has been massive financial infidelity as well but thankfully I am ( and will be ) financially fine no matter the outcome. H is also a workaholic clocking in 80-90 hours per week.

H has been a clinging boomerang the entire time. Had I not set stricter and stricter boundaries as time went on, he would still be clinging. He also had massive cycles and I saw plenty of monster, but that has calmed down somewhat.

I managed to protect the kids from the entirety of the situation until about 6 months ago. At that point H forced me into a situation where my options were to lie to the kids to hide his A, or tell them the truth, and I told them the truth.  The time since then has seen H move a little more forward with the kids, spending a little more time with them, but they will not approach him about what he is doing to the family or how they feel.
The last 6 months I have also maintained "smart contact". When we are together we get along well. I am detaching as much as I can, and have done many things to GAL, and I have my own IC, but I still have significant moments of cycling emotions.  I feel like I should be further along in this process but I guess I'm not.

Two weeks ago H and I had a lengthy dinner- probably the 5th or 6th time we have seen each other in the past 6 months. At the end of 2.5 hours he stated "he did not see us getting back together", and I completely lost it. With RCR's help I have been no contact since that point. I know this is a drop in the bucket.

Here is where I am really struggling:

1-  All 3 of my kids want me to file for divorce. They think I am prolonging the inevitable, see the situation as hopeless, and don't really understand MLC. They think I am rationalizing his horrible behavior.  At the same time they are spending time with him and not verbalizing their concerns to him, which leaves me with the brunt of things. I know it is in the kids best interest to have a relationship with their dad, but part of me feels like it is enabling to sweep things under the rug if they don't get the opportunity to express how they feel. Plus to be honest, I am jealous of the time they get to spend with them and I do not like this aspect of myself. It is impacting my relationship with them and I have tried very hard to have open lines of communication and be honest with them.

2- There is not anyone that knows the extent of what is going on, that has contact with H. He does not have friends outside of work, and he does not have family that lives nearby. So other than myself, no one sees the craziness of his life.  He is extremely successful at work and that feeds into his justification for his lifestyle. Basically, there is no one to challenge his poor decision making other than me, and in true MLC fashion, any issue or solution I bring up is immediately dismissed. 

I've done enough reading, reflecting and counseling to know that I cannot have any impact on his choosing to come out of this OR stop his workaholism. He needs to crash if there is any hope of change. I know intellectually that all I can do is keep detaching and GAL.

So I guess basically I need help to maintain a good relationship with my kids without putting them more in the middle of this than they are, or expecting them to be a catalyst for helping to change him.  I also need thoughts on if I am enabling him by keeping all of this craziness as private as I have-public knowledge would impact his career and our finances.  I'm just at the point where I'm not sure I can take on any more stress and still continue to heal, no matter what happens.

[xyzcf]

So I guess basically I need help to maintain a good relationship with my kids without putting them more in the middle of this than they are, or expecting them to be a catalyst for helping to change him.  I also need thoughts on if I am enabling him by keeping all of this craziness as private as I have-public knowledge would impact his career and our finances.  I'm just at the point where I'm not sure I can take on any more stress and still continue to heal, no matter what happens.

It is exhausting, the energy it takes to figure out how to live and make the best of a lousy situation.

I don't believe that anything we do "enables" them. They will do whatever they want. I have always been very protective of my husband's actions, except with a few friends. Actually, I have found nobody in his business world really cares. Many have been divorced and remarried and he's just such a "nice guy" that I think they believe I am responsible for our breakup.

They can be very successful in their career lives, they wear a mask very well it seems.

Counseling often looks at the relationships we have with our family members, what is happening in the marriage (without really understanding MLC). It took some serious mind/body work, 8 years after BD I found a therapist who specialized in trauma and then it took over 60 sessions over a period of 2 years before I started to feel more like myself than I had for the previous 10 years.

Each of has to choose what works best for ourselves. We have one adult daughter who lives in another country. He had very little to do with her for 12 years but they are managing to find a relationship of sorts.

In our particular situation, I decided that it is ok for us to be together as a "family"..otherwise we'd have to split time with her and I did not want that.

He has always been a "clinging boomerang"..he has never stopped being in touch with me but is still extremely secretive about his life. I don't get shaken the way I once did and the times we are together can be quite nice actually. We laugh and have the same views on certain things, but I do get angry at times when I hear about his life. One that I would have been sharing with him.

Eventually, I healed quite a bit from the "trauma" and figured out what could be salvaged from this broken family. I did not want to close all doors to him but I also wanted to be able to feel joy and peace again.

I am not sure anyone can direct us to this place of acceptance, calm and peace because there are so many factors to consider in each case. Each situation, although there are similarities, is unique to our own values and beliefs and our family situation.

I do see MLC as a crisis that neither one of us had any control over and the impact of his crisis caused me a great deal of pain and harm, as it did to our daughter. I do not think it could have been avoided and I don't believe he intentionally took this path to harm me..I don't think he even realizes how much harm this has done.

I never stopped loving him. There is still love, for the man he once was but also for this person he is today.

He recently had two medical surgeries and I assisted him for both of them...not because I expected it would change anything...but because I wanted to. Some people would call that "cake eating"..he didn't ask me ..I offered and I do think it was the right thing to do.

Acceptance, that was perhaps the biggest thing that helped me to get to the other side. I don't wonder anymore about his returning, he has been gone a very long time. I never wanted to give up on us, I am pretty stubborn that way but I learned that there will always be a place for him and that becoming stronger and able to be in his presence without it tearing me apart, I found it better for me in the long run.

I didn't involve my daughter in much of what I was going through. We have talked about what works for our family. Your kids wanting you to divorce him, it's not their call. That is for you to decide or not.

In my case, he sent me a text message 9 years after BD to say he was divorcing me...imagine that! Yet nothing changed in his contact with me. This is a prime example to me..what "normal" person does this?

5 years is a long time. Many on HS are still struggling after a decade or more...not like we once did...but there are still things that trigger us. Some have gone on to find new partners and perhaps that is a solution..it would not be for me.

Thanks for sharing. Here, you can talk about how you feel and others will share their stories..and perhaps that will help you not to feel so alone.

[forthetrees]

I went by the guideposts of not wanting regrets down the road. I don´t think you are enabling him by keeping quiet though there is the personal emotional cost to you not have the craziness validated. It is not worth blowing his cover as it would likely blow back on you. Finding a way to let the truth come to light due to his own actions is a path that allows you to drop the rope, really drop the rope, and not be tagged with his undoing professionally or reputation-wise in the community. That´s for the karma bus and his own actions to lead to consequences- let him reap what he sows, no need for you to harvest it for him.

Your kids are old enough to navigate a path to having some sort of relationship with him but they don´t get to dictate your marital status. It´s not your purview or job to express their feelings for them- please check out the Bowen Family Center in DC and look at their posts on triangles- you do NOT wan to engage in a triangle with your kids and H. Not worth being jealous of their time with H as he is likely an a$$hat in many ways to them so you´re not missing out on much.

I do wonder if some of your current angst stems from some anger and hurt at having kept the affair secret all this time and yet H still has a relationship with the kids. Also that you have put so much time into waiting to see if he´d change and have been shut down with a "I don´t see us getting back together." Both of those are another kick in the teeth and require processing hurt all over again. That is where backing away and taking a break from contact can allow you to avoid having yet another hurt inflicted. Self-preservation requires stepping out of the line of fire. Maybe have a period of time for which your kids do not report back on how H is doing but during which they know they can come to you to talk about their feelings. You cannot process their feelings for them, nor can you protect them from their Dad doing bone-headed or hurtful things. You can be there for them to listen. The NYTimes had a great article in which it said that you can ask people, "Do you want to be helped, heard or hugged?" That is a valid question for you as well.

Make this the summer of YOU! Check out the meet-ups in your area. Maybe you are also dealing with the sadness of being an empty nester along with all the LBS load. You are worthy of love and kindness.
FTT

[MadLuv]

Not sure this will help, but I struggled with some of those same things

1-  All 3 of my kids want me to file for divorce. They think I am prolonging the inevitable, see the situation as hopeless, and don't really understand MLC. They think I am rationalizing his horrible behavior.  At the same time they are spending time with him and not verbalizing their concerns to him, which leaves me with the brunt of things. I know it is in the kids best interest to have a relationship with their dad, but part of me feels like it is enabling to sweep things under the rug if they don't get the opportunity to express how they feel. Plus to be honest, I am jealous of the time they get to spend with them and I do not like this aspect of myself. It is impacting my relationship with them and I have tried very hard to have open lines of communication and be honest with them.

My 1stBD was same as yours and I stayed. I did move my now XH out for 10 mths and we dated and he moved back and then left again 10/20 and I divorced him within 4 mths. My D also thought at first BD I should be done, but just like their relationship is theirs so is yours and you have to do what you want to do. I think if not forced I would have stuck with the marriage as long as I could due to our history and family and age.

2- There is not anyone that knows the extent of what is going on, that has contact with H. He does not have friends outside of work, and he does not have family that lives nearby. So other than myself, no one sees the craziness of his life.  He is extremely successful at work and that feeds into his justification for his lifestyle. Basically, there is no one to challenge his poor decision making other than me, and in true MLC fashion, any issue or solution I bring up is immediately dismissed

Thats tough. My XH also was very high up and involved with a subordinate and I did not keep it quiet. I felt I had been betrayed and he moved on quickly with her and I did not feel I should hide his behavior. He did get fired from his 35 year career a day before our 1 year anniversary of our divorce and 3 mths after he moved OW in. He honestly had not been doing his job well as he was in crisis. You have to go with your gut, but always know that it’s not your burden to bare.

So I guess basically I need help to maintain a good relationship with my kids without putting them more in the middle of this than they are, or expecting them to be a catalyst for helping to change him

  This has been a very difficult process for me as well and I found that my S does not want to talk about it and my D tried very hard to accept OW for her Dad and that was very painful for me, but I finally stepped back and it all blew up. Unfortunately neither of my kids now have a relationship with their Dad and haven't seen him in 1 1/2 , but that is on their dad. I always tell them to leave the door ajar for their Dad, because I dont want them to feel embarrassed or  unable to be honest with me if they do reconnect and I do want them to have a relationship with their dad. I am glad that now it appears neither will accept OW and selfishly I am glad. I think you have to support them and do your best to not make them feel like they cant talk about their Dad in front of you. I actually recently put 3 old family photos up so they aren’t ashamed or feel like they cant talk about him. I also bring up old stories here and there. I dont want them to think I have resentment towards him, but I also have told them his behavior is unacceptable, but that is not who he is. I try to balance compassion, empathy and honesty.

[Onlythelonely]

Thank you to all 3 of your for your responses.

xyzcf- I understand what you are saying about being "protective" of H's actions. I hadn't thought about it that way before, but it does help me clarify. I sometimes have an internal debate about whether it's enabling his actions or "standing in the gap" to minimize the damage all the way around, and I lean toward standing in the gap. When we picked out names for our 3 kids, we never told anyone what we had picked because I didn't want to hear anyone else's opinions or feedback. I feel the same way about my decision now to keep things private. No one could possibly know what I/we have gone through unless they have lived it, and if I shared all the details, almost no one would believe me. My H is also "such a nice guy" and admired by all that know him IRL. I will look into trauma therapy as well as I am open to all avenues for healing. I give you credit for your ability to forgive and allow your H to still be part of your life. I don't think I am quite there.

Forthetrees- My goal throughout has been to be impeccable in my words and actions, and minimize the damage this is doing to my kids. I am no where perfect, but it has been a mantra that has helped me when making decisions and responding to H. I am familiar with triangulation ( but will look at the Bowen Family article ) and part of my reason for posting here is recognizing that I was veering into that territory. It's a very fine line to walk when trying to facilitate ( or at least not inhibit ) the relationship with the kids and H, but also be a sounding board for them and verbalize that what H is doing is completely wrong and bizarre, while personally setting a good example and not demonizing him.  H is also telling the kids that me discussing the situation with them is wrong, so there's another added element as well. I have had difficult conversations with 2/3 kids the last few days where they have finally verbalized to me that they understand he continues to not make sound decisions and is "messed up".   That has helped validate to me, at least, that they aren't thinking that this is how normal people deal with life decisions. They are just taking his bread crumbs when they can get them.

You are correct that this last week was definitely a "kick in the teeth" and it takes me a while to recover. I've had one encounter with him since I first posted that was pure monster, and it actually helped me distance from him as he just further demonstrated that I still cannot have any rational conversation with him.. I sort of felt he had moved past that, but it just came roaring back. It was a great reminder to me to stay away, for now.

MadLuv-We have a lot of similarities in our situation, it seems.  Can you explain a little why you were forced to D? I have the same goals as you with my kids and H. I can see where mine are hesitant to say when they are going to spend time with him, purely because my reactions have been poor. I'm trying hard to remedy that and provide an environment where they feel safe to talk about anything. It still hurts like crazy.  I keep telling myself that it is in the kids best interest to have a relationship with H, and that has helped a lot. Thankfully he has never brought OW public, and she may be gone, but all 3 kids have verbalized that they will have nothing to do with her. Again, they are in their 20's so a different situation vs. we were on a co parenting schedule.

 I know the Karma Bus will get here eventually, but sometimes I feel like it must have broken down somewhere or missed a turn!

[Standing Strong]

Hi OL 

What a rough spot, and so long already.

The thing which stands out to me is the circumstance: were he is now, and what he is doing.
His escape and passion is his work. In there (so long as he is successful) he can place his value, identity, reward, and whatever else..... it is safe (for him). I think we (LBS's) have to have value in order for them to come back, but when they put everything into career it's very hard to break them away. There needs to be disappointment and failure for them to change and grow.
My W was in this mode for years before BD, and it changed her so much (in a bad way). Not needing anything and deriving all her self-worth from work was so destructive.. and I couldn't snap her out.

For women with an H trapped in this cycle (especially ones who are really successful), I don't know how they are shaken loose or snapped out of it. In this way, I guess it's good when the MLC'er can't hold it together and gets fired or does something really stupid like quit to sell timeshares in Antarctica or starting a business reselling girl scout cookies year-round..... but the ones who compartmentalize and hold that one part of their life together effectively.... ouch. So easy to justify anything you want with success.

If you don't mind me asking: was he always a workaholic to this extreme? Or did it happen later? If so, suddenly or gradually?

-SS

[sachat3]

Hello, just thought I would chime in. Whilst I see similarities in our situation there are also huge differences. To your point 1) the children. Mine are much younger than yours. My oldest is 11. She struggles very much with it all. When her dad is around she turns quite nasty towards me, in a way to get on her dads side. Example being, if Clington (that’s what I call my MLCer) makes any sarcastic comment, even if it’s about him. Like say he says “do yoh like my hair it’s going grey” and I’ll sarcastically reply “oh yeah, that receding hair line is amazing” she’ll pipe up “have you seen your hair mate. And your fake tan”. But when he’s not around she’s different. She’ll make comments like “yeah dad can only be bothered with us 4 days a month”. It all boils down to she is hurt by his actions. I imagine that’s how your kids feel. They want you to get a divorce FOR YOU. But ultimately they will cling to their dad because they likely want his approval. They’ve seen how he has treated you, and they don’t want to be next.

If you feel like outting him will be in your benefit and help you feel better. By all means. Go for it. But again, speaking from experience. It’s unlikely too. Clington cheated on ow with me at the early stages and I felt so smug telling her everything. I had screenshots. I had it all. I thought (stupidly) it would change everything. It changed absolutely nothing. If anything it made her dog her claws in deeper.

Honestly it’s a tough old ride but it does get easier

[Treasur]

My sense of what you are describing - but I could be wrong - is that you have hit your own internal ‘buffer’ in some way, and whatever that means for you, your instinct is that some of how you have tried to navigate the last few years is no longer working for you. That you feel you need to do something different and so you are questioning a lot of aspects of your tactics to date. Is that how it feels?

And you are wise and sane and honest enough with yourself to see that you have a blend of emotions and priorities which don’t always sit at ease with each other? So, more to chew on, hence that feeling of running out of ‘resources’?

The first thing I want to say is that, if I have understand that sense of where you are rightly, you are not alone here. Quite a few of us will probably recognise that beginning of an internal shift and the confusion that comes with it.

The second thing I want to say is to commend you on your courage in looking for new tactics and in reducing contact while you figure that out. And tbh in telling your young adult children the truth, to whatever degree seemed appropriate, when your h was trying to bully or emotionally blackmail you into not doing so. Again, quite a lot of us here understand how hard it can be when those kind of ethical issues become something real as opposed to a tricky question on a philosophy paper!

I’m not going to comment on your current choice to stand, your pov about your h’s life choices or your last unsettling contact with him. There are others here much wiser than me about these things.

It sounds as if you feel as if you are in a deeply uncomfortable (for you) multi-pronged kind of virtual triangle? With your young adult kids and with the wider world in RL? A triangle where you feel judged in some way, unheard in others, helpless about some things and responsible for trying to mitigate the damage as you see it in other ways. If so, that’s quite a doozy of a mix, isn’t it? Exhausting to even try to put into words let alone sort out.

I can’t recall if you are seeing any kind of IC and finding that useful in thinking out loud and experimenting with different tactics. As I think someone else mentioned, I would encourage you to dig into deepening your understanding of how trauma affects our perspectives and problem-solving with some expert help if you can. That feeling of having one’s life upended to the point where it becomes unclear which way is up is hard for folks in RL to get, no matter how good their intentions, unless they have trotted in similar shoes for a little while imho. It sounds as if silence has sometimes been a ‘go to’ for you; it sounds as if gaslighting and a certain level of control is yoyr husband’s…..both of which are not uncommon in the LBS experience here. And it is quite possible that learning more about our normal human responses to trauma may also help you acquire a slightly more detached (in a good way) perspective on how trauma might underpin some of your kid’s responses as well as your own. Bc this upending, and all the confusion that came along after, did not just happen to you, did it? So all of you, in different ways, are trying your best to navigate it…..and young adult kids have less life experience, and an entirely normal level of healthy narcissism, in their twenties, right?

Without unpicking the detail of your situation, it sounds as if you may need to take a fresh look at your own priorities. What matters most to you at the moment as you stumble forwards? What has changed? What has evolved? And then imho, this may lead you to consider anew your own boundaries and the limits of what you are prepared to hold yourself responsible or accountable for. But again imho this kind of deep internal winnowing is almost undoably hard to do solo….hence the value of the right kind of thinking out loud IC.

With the caveat that I am not a parent, it seems to me that some of your desire to protect your kids and protect whatever remains of their relationship with their father is entirely normal. But perhaps the landscape renders these normal instincts not always so useful. Are kids, adult or otherwise, always better having a relationship with a disordered parent if they feel it is painful or distressing? I’m not so sure tbh….but if so, I suspect that this is not your job or responsibility to manage. Maybe your only job is to not get in the way of whatever they individually feel works for them? Or not? And as a human being, you are imho entitled to remind your young adult kids that, much as you love them and know they love you, you are also a human in your own right with your own needs at a given time that you would like them to try to respect even if they disagree or you do.

It can’t be underemphasised, I think, how wide and deep the ripples of this kind of life experience is. Sometimes to a degree that can be surprising even years down the road. Which is why, for most of us, there is an ongoing process of trial and error, of evolving into different ways of navigating our circumstances that didn’t seem appropriate before but now do. And I hope it at least helps you feel a little less alone that many of us do get it.

[KayDee]

Thank you to all 3 of your for your responses.

xyzcf- I understand what you are saying about being "protective" of H's actions. I hadn't thought about it that way before, but it does help me clarify. I sometimes have an internal debate about whether it's enabling his actions or "standing in the gap" to minimize the damage all the way around, and I lean toward standing in the gap. When we picked out names for our 3 kids, we never told anyone what we had picked because I didn't want to hear anyone else's opinions or feedback. I feel the same way about my decision now to keep things private. No one could possibly know what I/we have gone through unless they have lived it, and if I shared all the details, almost no one would believe me. My H is also "such a nice guy" and admired by all that know him IRL. I will look into trauma therapy as well as I am open to all avenues for healing. I give you credit for your ability to forgive and allow your H to still be part of your life. I don't think I am quite there.

I have this image of you standing in the gap (trench?) and taking a lot of flak, and I can imagine the culminative effect of this on your well-being, and that this is something you might not feel while you remain there in the gap. But it may be taking a slow toll on you, depleting the full-rounded, giving, loving you that your children need. I guess what I am saying is, that there is more than one way to minimize damage. Or to put it another way, there are other ways to support your children that doesn't whittle you away in the process. The sadness of my situation did show outwardly, much more than I thought. I didn't know that I wasn't being myself, until people told me later 'yes, you seem much more yourself now' 'you seem happy'.

What SS wrote really resonated with me. I see exactly this in my H. He gets his value and identity from his work at the moment. In fact, he slowly slipped into this sphere about a year pre BD. Now I see him as kind of living at/thru work. But I also see that this can be quite a cold existence, without long-term, close friends. It seems  that you might be your H's best friend, but what do you get from this relationship? I understand what you are saying about sharing this experience and that others may not 'believe' it, but you may be surprised. I have a couple of close friends who, in their belief in me, believe me. They also don't trash my H, or push uncalled for advice, but they have helped me stay grounded and keep my core sense of self. They don't (and shouldn't) replace IC, but good friends can remind you of who you are - not just the crisis you.

[MadLuv]

MadLuv-We have a lot of similarities in our situation, it seems.  Can you explain a little why you were forced to D? I have the same goals as you with my kids and H. I can see where mine are hesitant to say when they are going to spend time with him, purely because my reactions have been poor. I'm trying hard to remedy that and provide an environment where they feel safe to talk about anything. It still hurts like crazy.  I keep telling myself that it is in the kids best interest to have a relationship with H, and that has helped a lot. Thankfully he has never brought OW public, and she may be gone, but all 3 kids have verbalized that they will have nothing to do with her. Again, they are in their 20's so a different situation vs. we were on a co parenting schedule

  so, when he decided to leave he immediately said he wanted to divorce. He was so adamant about. We had just been looking at putting a bid on a lake home and so I knew something was terrible wrong. At that point I felt I wasn’t going to keep him married to me if he didn’t want to. I also came up with my own divorce settlement which was amazing and I assumed there would be some fight on it, but nope!! He agrees to it all. He Never hired an atty. i knew then that he was not thinking straight. My lawyer said you can get remarried but you will never get this settlement again. If there is someone else once she is in his ear hr wont be as agreeable. He did not one think for the divorce. I don’t know if we would be divorced today if he had to handle it. I doubt it, but I can what if’s forever. I secured things for me and my kids and felt if it was meant to be it would be.

[Onlythelonely]

Wow. You guys all really get this! ( DUH )..

Standing Strong, thanks for your response. I see that you have dealt with similar circumstances re your wife. To answer your questions: H has always been a "hard worker" and highly esteemed. However, in the beginning of our marriage this stemmed from getting a career off the ground and supporting a growing family. At that time he was also an excellent husband and very involved father. Family always came first and his decisions were made jointly in the best interest of all of us. Where he crossed the line to "workaholic" is questionable and probably impossible to put a finger on. It's a slippery slope.

I have read extensively on workaholism ( I recommend Barbara Killinger's writings on this if you haven't read them ). She has a "workaholic breakdown syndrome" theory that ties in well with MLC and Jung's work. I have talked to RCR about this quite a bit. It's essentially a chicken or egg scenario whether MLC or Workaholism came first, and ultimately it doesn't really matter. Until he hits rock bottom, nothing changes. ( Somewhere I read that for a workaholic, "rock bottom" is actually at the top.) I have recognized where I enabled this behavior and have worked very hard to stop.

Treasur- You have succinctly summed up exactly what I have been feeling, thank you for helping me untangle all of that. Yes, I do feel that I am at a crossroads of knowing that I cannot continue to do what I have been doing, for my own personal mental and physical health. Someone on these boards used the phrase "chewing my arm off" to get out of the situation, and that's exactly how I feel. I don't WANT to end contact, but I have to. It's taken a lot of starts and stops to get to this point. His monstering last week was textbook narcissism ( through text ) and I know I have to protect myself from that now.
And yes, there are times that I want to scream from the rooftops for someone to please look at what he is doing, but IRL most would wonder if I was equally as crazy for staying. I am speaking to an IC, and I have two friends who have been in similar situations that listen without judgment that I am very thankful for. I am open to suggestions re delving into trauma responses and decision making. The further out I get the more easily I can tease out whether my responses to his actions are a result of emotional blackmail/manipulation, or of my own personal values, but wow has that taken a while, and I am just at the tip of the iceberg.

As far as the kids-they are my priority, and tied with that is my own mental well being so that I can support them.  So to clarify that, intellectually I know that it is the best thing for them to have a relationship with him. ( actually Treasur you make a good point if in reality H is not healthy, is that statement true? But I don't have control either way ). If it IS the best thing moving forward, I recognize that. It's the part where I feel jealous and hurt by my own kids when they do spend time with him that I really hate about myself. ESPECIALLY since he does not allow them to talk about their feelings with him at all. From my vantage point it's a little like they are saying, "Oh, dad lied for years and blew up the family? What a complete A**hat. We hate him. You should totally divorce him. See ya later mom, we're going on a fishing trip with him for the weekend". I hope that makes sense and does not make me sound like a horrible person. It's discombobulating. I need advice on how not to let it spill over to my kids while at the same time setting the example that what he is doing is SO wrong.

KayDee- I think I hit upon a lot of your points above as well. Again, read Killinger's work if you can. It has helped me immensely.  I have also read up on detachment from an Al-Anon perspective and replacing" workaholic" with "alcoholic" just about sums it up. Yes I would say I am H's best friend. Throughout this whole crisis, when I allowed him to, he cycled and returned to me. He does 70 percent of the talking when we are together, and I know he has no one else he confides in about his life. ( He can talk about work with work ppl, though). I have also seen him change from 2-3 years ago when he completely ignored me almost all the time, to actively listening now when I do talk, when we have spent time together. This is a turn back to the relationship we have historically had where we talked everything out, problem solved and found joy in dissecting the events of every day life. ( Also the reason that him saying "I don't see us getting back together " after a 2.5 hour dinner where we talked about things like old times was so shocking ) I also know he is trying, in his own way, to maintain a relationship with the kids. I liked what you said about your friends " belief in you, believed you". That is very true. The two friends I have shared with also have never met H, so they are not biased based on his normal good guy persona. Thank you for this input.

[Algo]

or does something really stupid like quit to sell timeshares in Antarctica
-SS

Hehe It's so amazing that they actually do this kind of stuff and no-one is there to tell them how stupid such a behavior is... This phrase really got a kick out of me, thanks for the laugh, I really needed it today!

[xyzcf]

Workaholic Breakdown Syndrome....I search this briefly this am ...even after so many years, it struck many many truths for me. I always knew his "mistress" was work (and then he found a real life mistress).....and I had accepted during our marriage that this was what his passion was...and he was highly, highly successful.

I was proud of him and independent enough to have my own career, my role as a mother, a yoga practice....we moved 7 times for his work.

Friends would ask me why I would agree to keep moving for his job, I believed that since this was much more important to him than my job was to me, ( not to mention how much more money he made)and he was very good to me in many many ways....that is was ok. Indeed, I had some amazing experiences and the opportunity to learn about other countries and cultures.

I read, but couldn't find it to quote here, that workaholics were 50 times more likely to divorce.

And then the reasons for the "addiction"...I look forward to reading further.

Thanks for bringing this topic up.

As we have always said, it isn't us. But it certainly can destroy us in the process.....fortunately we rebuild and heal and find some peace knowing that our values about marriage and family were never compromised.

We left our 17 year old daughter behind and moved to another country. She did not even spend summer holidays with us, for she had no friends or connections to the places we moved to...she was totally on her own and I never imagined that from the time she was 17, I would have only a couple of days a year to see her....I never dreamed he would end our marriage and so that was a sacrifice I made for him. We moved further and further away from her and our family...6 hours by car, then 4 hours by plane, then 16 hours by plane. Our daughter did an amazing job of "growing up" on her own but this...this kills me, for her, for me..it never ever ever should have been this way....had I known......this breaks me more than anything else...I choose him over her.

This "syndrome" also explain why they do not "feel" or have any empathy..and I know that there are several other posters on HS who were married to a "workaholic" and we all knew didn't we?

[sachat3]

Please forgive me if I overstep here as I am not fully caught up on your story. However, what was your H’s early life like? Were funds lacking? Could that be a trigger for his workaholic ness.

I only ask because for clington (my MLCer) a huge trigger is his dad. He’s now moved into working in the same industry his dad did. He earns average money blah blah. But that’s trigger for him. Whereas for me, my mother sounds similar to your H. So growing up I had lots of luxuries  but that meant I never saw my mum.   I could go two three weeks at a time without seeing her. It was hard. Maybe work/earning money is a trigger?

Not that it makes it okay at all, but I always think once you can see WHY they do something. It helps a lot.

[MadLuv]

As far as the kids-they are my priority, and tied with that is my own mental well being so that I can support them.  So to clarify that, intellectually I know that it is the best thing for them to have a relationship with him. ( actually Treasur you make a good point if in reality H is not healthy, is that statement true? But I don't have control either way ). If it IS the best thing moving forward, I recognize that. It's the part where I feel jealous and hurt by my own kids when they do spend time with him that I really hate about myself. ESPECIALLY since he does not allow them to talk about their feelings with him at all. From my vantage point it's a little like they are saying, "Oh, dad lied for years and blew up the family? What a complete A**hat. We hate him. You should totally divorce him. See ya later mom, we're going on a fishing trip with him for the weekend". I hope that makes sense and does not make me sound like a horrible person. It's discombobulating. I need advice on how not to let it spill over to my kids while at the same time setting the example that what he is doing is SO wrong

What I found in my situation was that the difference for the kids is they are seeing this is happening to YOU not to them.  So, even though your H actions may go against your family Morals and how they were raised and they can tell you their opinions on what you should do they are not fully connecting it is being done to them also. Now, that can be partially true or even more. I know when I stepped back and just allowed my kids to have their relationship with their father they started to see his actions did and were affecting them also in more ways then just leaving the family. That he was in fact being emotionally immature, lying etc. to them as well.

And we…. We are in the middle. Wanting to save their relationship with their parent and also wanting in some way for them to be on “our” side if they have to choose. I know I made so many excuses for my kids father. Then I realized it’s not my job to save their father or their relationship with him. My kids slowly but surely saw his behavior was not just saved for me, but that for what ever reason he had changed and who their Dad was , well he was not who he was now. So, then they had to choose what they were willing to accept from him. I honestly did not want them to see their Dad differently, but now that they do it actually is a better place to be. Healthier place for everyone as they are also not ignoring his behavior and he is being held to some accountability by his own actions. I can now just be their parent without be offended by their interactions and relationship with him in any way. The kids are in the same start of chaos we are. Once the dust starts to settle everything that is happening starts to come to light and EVERYONE sees how they are personally affected. In the beginning we are all just in out own selfish savior mode. Wanting life to be normal and trying to avoid what is happening, but it can only be avoided for so long. We don’t have to get anyone to see what is happening as eventually they will see it all. That has been my experience at least.

[OffRoad]

Take this as MOO.
It has always made me crazy that my xh got to lie to me, lie about me, gaslight me, cheat on me, steal from me, verbally abuse me and abandon me and my adult kids appear to see that as just fine with them. But the truth is that they know Mom will always be here for them while Dad could just decide he doesn't like something they do and walk away from them just like he did me. That has got to be hard to deal with, always wondering if they will become the "bad" person in their fathers eyes.

Kids seem to come mostly wired to love their parents, even if the parents are aholes. I have a friend who thinks love is being treated like garbage because that is how her parents treated her. My D complains about the ahole things her father does then says "It's just how he is". 

The hardest thing I ever had to do, and that is because my kids were adults, is to get good with the fact that I cannot control anyone else's action except my own. If my kids wanted to spend their life working at McDonald's, I may not like it or think it's wise, but it's not my choice. Same with the relationship with their father.

Next up, opportunities will arise where you get to speak your piece. You GET to have emotions, you GET to feel bad that you did the best you could and an a$$hat just got to treat you like crap and it's OK with everyone else. All being silent gets you, imo, is a tag that says "walk on me, ask me how". I don't mean you should rail on about the unfairness if the world, but the opportunity for a simple "when you act as if what your father has done is normal and just fine with you, it makes me concerned that you you will think that is OK to do to someone else" might present itself with your kids.  I, being me, also added "Expect that if you do such a thing, I will likely side with the other party." It was actually a great talk.

Finding your boundaries is hard but necessary.  You need them for everyone, including your kids. My kids tell me little of anything they do with their father. Works for us.

[Onlythelonely]

xyzcf- I was the same as you, when I started really reading about workaholism from an addiction perspective, many of the puzzle pieces fell into place for me.  My H is brilliantly talented, and I thought I was being a supportive spouse by picking up the slack at home, forgoing family time, and eventually basically being a married single parent. At some point it crossed over into enabling his addiction. H also used some gaslighting as he entered MLC for real, telling me that I had no idea what it was like to have a successful career (I became a SAHM), or could understand the pressure he was under to maintain his success, and that we all benefited him from him working so much-essentially that I wasn't entitled to an opinion regarding his work. It is insidious, and only in hindsight can I see the part I played in enabling him.  I'm glad you found some truths in this to your own situation.  Please don't blame yourself, but find some validation and answers in this theory/explanation in order to help you move forward. It's definitely hard to grasp you've never been there.  The turning off of emotions ( Killinger states the "Feeling" function no longer informs judgment ) surely parallels what many have seen in MLC, so like I said before, whether workaholism or MLC came first with H, I'm not sure. Many definitions I read could be describing one in the same thing. Again this is just my experience with MLC, and not all MLCer's are workaholics. YMMV.

sachat3- sorry I realized I missed responding to your first post. I haven't posted much in the way of background purely for privacy's sake, and I feel like I have a handle on what lead up to MLC, so in my first post I just gave a brief overview. From what I have read, workaholics develop primarily because either they need to be perfect and gain approval from FOO, or to over - correct for a lack of resources they did not get from FOO. H definitely is over-correcting. The key take away is that while they over-correct, they become ADDICTED to the adrenaline, success, and monetary gains. So even when things are "corrected", they cannot stop what they are doing. It is also an addiction sanctioned by society, unlike drugs or alcohol. It is also tricky in that it is a behavioral addiction like shopping or anorexia, in which you cannot completely stop what you are doing ( you HAVE to shop, eat and work, where you can completely abstain from gambling, alcohol and drugs ).

MadLuv- Yikes- your post me helped a ton.  (I want to quote your whole last paragraph but I don't know how to quote yet). Thank you. They do see this as being done TO ME. And I think Treasur mentioned the "healthy narcissism" of 20 year olds, and lack of life experiences, that they can't fully see that it is being done " to them " as well. It's hard to step back and just watch it play out. However, things seem to be playing out so fast and furious here that I can't post fast enough, but just yesterday I had convos with 2/3 AGAIN and it is becoming more evident that they are seeing how messed up he is. Our middle child has been the least verbal about all of this, trying to stay neutral, but yesterday he and I had a conversation and he basically unloaded everything he has been thinking. He is VERY observant, and VERY upset with H, and sees the motives of H's behavior with all 3 kids ( there has been a lot of monetary bribing going on with H for the kids attention ).  He is disgusted with H, and at the same time still frustrated with my stand. So your post was spot on, and almost in real time- unbelievable. In trying to stay above water myself, I wasn't even really thinking that they might need more time for the "dust to settle" to make their own judgment call. I wanted them to get to the place that I am without them taking the time I needed to get there.  Makes total sense. I think also I recognized a big part of my own responsiveness is trying to make sure that all 3 know this is NOT OK on any level, and now that I know they truly understand this, I'm a little more comfortable just letting it play out.

OffRoad-I agree, a lot of what I have worked on in the last 5 years is :

1. Letting go of control - not only of H, but of my kids choices as well. That includes not jumping in and fixing everyone's problems.

2. Reacting - A VERY hard lesson for me was learning not to react to anyone's bone headed decisions ( mostly H's ). It took a long time to realize that when I reacted, then they could shift the focus to my poor reaction instead of the results of their poor decision, if that makes sense.

3. Patience- this is a work in progress, always. And as my response to MadLuv above just shows that I need to keep working on this with my kids.

Again, it's a fine line to describe, but my kids KNOW that I have been treated like garbage, and verbalize it to me. It's MY reaction, to their reaction to their D, that brought me here.  I agree that I need to be able to state my opinion/values to the kids, but doing that without triangulating them against H felt almost impossible. ( maybe because of his actions, it is impossible?).  Finding my voice in this and remaining the stable, sane parent that the kids know they can count on for honesty is very important to me.  That's very hard to do when you are trying to protect their relationship with H and also "undo" my own gaslighting from H that I should not be talking to them about this at all. It is honestly crazy making.

[Treasur]

That's very hard to do when you are trying to protect their relationship with H and also "undo" my own gaslighting from H that I should not be talking to them about this at all. It is honestly crazy making.

What a very good précis of your challenge. 
With the caveat that we really do get that this stuff is so much easier to post than to enact….
I wonder if your précis holds the kernel of the answer to your own question? (And how often does that urn out to be how it works, right?)

That's very hard to do when you are trying to protect their relationship with H

So, time to stop.
Lay it down as the practically impossible task that is which is in reality just not in your hands. Or your job.
Hand the relationship back to your young adult kids and your h to figure out collectively and individually. And accept that they may not, or not now, or not in the way you think they should.
Model the kind of loving respect to your kids that you want to receive. Trust them to figure it out regardless while knowing that they have your support or listening ear if they ask for it.

and also "undo" my own gaslighting from H that I should not be talking to them about this at all.

Well, time to lay that down too.
He left and chose a life that does not include you currently and for quite a long time now. His opinion now about almost everything you do, think or feel is no longer relevant as it once was. He does not warrant the voice or vote you once perhaps gave him. I would humbly suggest that you blow mental raspberries at the very idea that he has any right at the moment to require or demand anything of you at all or have any voice in your relationship with your children. I give you permission to use ruder words in your head if that helps 
And perhaps time to get honest with yourself about the extent of any self-gaslighting you may be doing. Bc imho that’s a real thing  or it was for me  Is some bit of you afraid of what will happen if you go against his ‘instructions’? Is some bit of you thinking that you will reduce the likeliehood of reconnection if you ignore his wants or that there is more chance of his return if you are ‘nice’ or compliant or agree with him? I don’t know the answer to that but you probably do in your gut (and you are under no obligation to share it here) but part of washing out the effects of gaslighting imho is to get as honest as we can with ourselves about some of the bits of our own thoughts and assumptions that might be a bit messy, even squirmy to look at.

[xyzcf]

We do not have crystal balls....one of the main "symptoms" of MLC is how totally off guard we were with what was to come.

Please don't blame yourself, but find some validation and answers in this theory/explanation in order to help you move forward.

My daughter and I talked about my feeling "I choose him over her" yesterday. She is amazing and so very bright, and did not at all consider that I have abandoned her. We seldom discuss her dad but when we do, she has some insight into him that I am "blind" to.

She has also encountered similar changes in bosses she has had over the year as they rose in power and influence in their careers.

That's very hard to do when you are trying to protect their relationship with H

So, time to stop.
Lay it down as the practically impossible task that is which is in reality just not in your hands. Or your job.
Hand the relationship back to your young adult kids and your h to figure out collectively and individually. And accept that they may not, or not now, or not in the way you think they should.
Model the kind of loving respect to your kids that you want to receive. Trust them to figure it out regardless while knowing that they have your support or listening ear if they ask for it.

I agree with onlythelonely regarding trying to protect their relationship with their MLC parent.

We are a family of three. He had a crisis and our family was shattered by this. I don't believe he choose to have a crisis and some of the information in "workaholic breakdown syndrome " and their childhoods fit my husband's childhood.

In this respect, the LBSer is in charge. You can make it comfortable or impossible for your children by allowing certain family times to be spent together. By showing your children what agape and unconditional love is.

It isn't easy and comes with a price. My daughter and I revisit this and what works is to include him in times when we get together for holidays and even vacation time.

Perhaps it is from my work with abused and neglected children, who no matter how bad their parent is, they still wish to be with their parent. The Federal initiative "Families First" tries to keep children in their homes with services rather than remove them to foster care. This has been shown as "best practices".

The book : Primal Loss. The Now Adult Children of Divorce Speak" by Leila Miller showed me the damage that occurs among adult children, especially if they lose contact with one of their parents.

Many disagree with me but I do see MLC as a "dis-ease" and if he had a stroke, a psychiatric illness or some other addiction....I would help my daughter accept and understand him. Perhaps that comes from having a father who was a POW in a Japanese prison camp during WWII, with a whole lot of PTSD..but we were a family..and I see this in my husband as well..the roots of this family, he can never sever, nor does he seem to want to.

I have become strong enough that contact with him doesn't shake me....I expect nothing for myself from him but there can be benefit in "paving the way". To make things calm and peaceful as possible...not because you can change the outcome of your marriage, but you can bring together what was good about this family unit and  find a different way of living within the constraints that his/her mlc caused.

It is important to  me that my daughter understand "love one another as I have loved you" which is the bases of our Christian faith.

Like everything else, it will not work for everyone but it can for some.

And yes, not every MLCer is a workaholic...but many do have an "addiction" of some sort or another.

[Onlythelonely]

Treasur and xyzcf-  I had to sit on both of your responses for a little bit to think about a reply. I don't think we are disagreeing on this, per se.

Treasur- you are stating that it is not my job to facilitate the relationship between my H and the adult kids. Certainly I can't control the outcome of where any of those relationships end up and I can't make anyone have, or not have, a relationship.

xyzcf-you are stating that protecting the relationship between H and adult kids is important for the kids well being.

I guess having thought a little bit about it, the LBS DOES have influence over those factors and has to be involved.  On a wide spectrum, if on one hand a LBS could stay completely silent about the MLC antics to the kids, never giving an opinion, input, facts, guidance, etc,  (essentially gaslighting them ), then the kids can't base their relationship with MLC'er on MLCer's real life choices, and there is also risk that they find out anyway and resent the LBS for witholding info. On the other hand, the LBS could go scorched earth, bad mouth the MLCer, alienate the kids from MLCer, remain bitter and angry, also causing ( probably more ) damage to the kids relationship with the MLCer and the LBS.

So are we discussing the middle of the spectrum? Where everyone agrees that it is in the kids best interest to have a relationship with MLCer if that is possible to do in a healthy way, and it is the LBS responsibility to be honest and supportive with the kids, but not try to control the outcome of their relationships with MLCer? Then the discussion has to involve how much "honesty" the LBS shares with kids for them to make healthy decisions, without triangulating. My own personal IC made the observation that I have shared about 5% of this ordeal with my kids. I am protecting my kids from information that I believe would be damaging to them, and in that decision also protecting their relationship with their H. H would say because I shared 5%, I am damaging their relationship with H.  I don't think that there is a formula that would tie this up nicely, but it is interesting to discuss and share ideas about.

Treasur -  I laughed out loud at your "blowing mental raspberries" comment. Thank you! Yes that's about where I am at the moment. Untangling from 27 years of joint parenting decision making and spending a long time walking on eggshells so that I could "pave the way" and hopefully increase the likelihood of his return. I have a very close friend with an ex husband that is a malignant narcissist, and I am now using her example of how she deals with her exH in how I am managing my H in monster. I was reading another thread today where you helped someone with trauma recovery and may PM you for more info if that's ok?

xyzcf- Yay! I'm so glad you had that talk with your daughter. I'm happy I could contribute something that helped you. If you read more about "workaholic breakdown syndrome" and want to discuss, let me know. I absolutely believe that MLC is a dis-ease, and have stated as such to all 3 kids. They absolutely don't buy into this yet, but maybe someday. I am no where near ready to extend the olive branch to him, nor do I think I should atm because he is still cycling. But I admire what you have done to preserve your family unit. I will also look into Miller book you recommended. Thank you!

[xyzcf]

I did not share very many details with our daughter. It is all deeply personal between her dad and I and  I wished to keep things private. I did speak to her about MLC, she could see the changes, the anger, the acting out with her own eyes. She knew that this was not and is not the father that she had known for 25 years.

He spends a bit more time with her now than he did for several years and they have their chat time every Sunday. We live quite far away form her so see her a couple of times a year. This was the first Father's Day he has spent with her in 20 years 

I don't ask about their time together. If she tells me something, I am open to listen.

She knows how I was pretty damaged for years....

Actually, I now remember something that has stuck with me...years ago, when I was a real mess, Stayed, a long time HS member told me "you had better get yourself together. Your daughter has already lost one parent, she can't afford to lose another". I am smiling when I read this now but not so at the time. 

He continues to keep his life pretty secret from her as well.

Some might call this playing "happy family" but I will disagree. Another person once said to me when I was "terrified" (and that is a word a friend used recently to describe how I was back then) that when I did have contact with him, treat him like a long lost relative that you don't know very well. Change the picture in your brain, reframe the situation,

Our son-in-law never knew his FIL prior to the crisis. The first time I could see them after COVID (19 months of not seeing my daughter!!!!) we stayed with friends who knew us before our daughter was born, just my daughter, SIL and myself...and over "adult beverages" the stories started coming out around the fire pit...I am smiling again.....my daughter was really grateful to these friends and the stories and laughter we shared that evening...she wanted her husband to know the father she had grown up with.

One time, when they were visiting in the home my husband and I shared before BD which is now my home, he and I were cooking, laughing, drinking wine, he was teasing me, the music was playing...you would really not know that we were not still a couple. My SIL said to me the next day "mom, I don't understand...and I replied, join the club".

We just let him be.

I don't talk to him about anything that is significant...some would say then why bother? I have learned (and another really good friend of mine in a similar situation) that there is absolutely no use in bringing up what happened, what I'd like to see, what my needs are because all I would get is that "deer in the headlights look" and it just isn't worth it.

He cannot meet any of my needs at this point. Acceptance.

But because I have peace about this..it works for my family. It doesn't for many others.

Most long term LBSers whose kids see their MLC parent separately, also have found that their kids are very aware of the "strangeness" the "alien" that once was dad or mom. Some adult kids never see their MLC parent and I cannot imagine how that feels to anyone...complete and total abandonment and rejection.

In therapy, when I discussed this dilemma with my therapist, should I see him or not, can he join us or not...she wisely said to me, "xyzcf, this is totally in your hands and you never have to make a permanent decision. You are ALLOWED to change your mind about this from one day to another. Nothing is carved in stone."

Freedom. I am ALLOWED. This is in my control and I can weigh it and decide each time whether this is good for our daughter and whether it causes problems for me or not.

I CHOOSE and that is the right thing for me and my family. Others may not wish to do so.

I do not have a relationship with another man. He keeps his life a big secret but I am aware there are OW's....if he were married or outwardly in a relationship with someone, I might have different feelings about this.

Recently, I accompanied him through two surgeries. In pre-op, staff asked several times..."who are you?"...I would say "a family friend". The one time the doctor asked him,
"who is she???" and he used my response and said "a family friend".....whatever.

It is a bizarre situation and we learn to mold our lives into a vessel that can tolerate whatever is thrown our way. We survive.

[Reinventing]

Onlythelonely,

I am no where near ready to extend the olive branch to him, nor do I think I should atm because he is still cycling.

Yes, we respect that the LBS is not a punching bag nor a martyr in this. The LBS needs to "put on their own oxygen mask first" and healing is a primary focus, especially early on. The gaslighting, lies, etc can be damaging and traumatic to the LBS, especially while they are trying to get their feet under them after their world drastically changed.

You can always change your interactions once you can catch your breath and have some time to heal. Nothing is cast in stone. Just take care of yourself first and foremost. That helps you and everyone else involved.

[Onlythelonely]

So here’s an update, and I need to vent somewhere and need advice.  I’ve been busy GAL ing the last couple weeks.  I have talked to RCR within the last week. Continuing NC with H. 
Nothing much has gone on the last 3 weeks except H refused to attend D21s birthday dinner and did a separate dinner with her, and S24 and I saw him at a local diner and he sat at the bar, separate from us. H is VERY MAD at me since I went NC. His last text to me was full of gaslighting and blame shifting.

D21 and I are out of town this weekend. This morning she woke up to texts from 3 friends who saw H and OW at a bar last night, kissing. They videoed the whole thing and sent the videos to her.  This is the first that I have been aware that he has gone public with OW the whole time this has been going on.

D21 is mortified and livid. H told her 2 months ago the relationship was over.  Her siblings are livid. D21 and S24 want to go no contact.

D21 texted H a photo from the video with No commentary. He texted her back that he loved her and he was sorry. That they could talk this week. She has not responded.

Please advise.. I am staying out of their interactions and letting her deal with this on her own, correct? Unless she asks for input?

Also while I’m shamelessly asking for support/advice.. H is drinking a ton, more than I have ever seen. Coupled with bringing OW public, and his anger at me, should I be looking at this as potential movement forward? Otherwise right now I feel like I am a fool for standing.

Sorry I’m just a little scrambled at the moment. His behavior is shocking, though I should have expected it. It’s going to take me a little bit to see it more clearly.

OL

[Evermore]

Hi OL

I’m so sorry your kids are having to deal with this. As you know my XH went public right from the start so my kids are now (nearly five years on just like you) used to seeing him with the OW. Doesn’t mean they like it any better or that it’s still not weird and unsettling.  They don’t see him that often these days (every couple of months) and I’m sure part of the reason is that uncomfortable feeling it gives them.
 

I am staying out of their interactions and letting her deal with this on her own, correct? Unless she asks for input?

Yes, I think you’re right to let her deal with this on her own unless she asks for input. She’s an adult and her relationship with her father is now hers to navigate. I know how hard it is to watch but say nothing in these circs!

As for whether his current excessive drinking and anger are ‘movement’, the most important thing I think I’ve learned is that nothing is a sign of anything. It’s very hard not looking for signs and wondering what each new weird thing they do means. I’ve got better with practice but even yesterday XH (I practice saying XH to try to get better at saying that too  ) liked and commented on some FB posts of mine and then sent me a text message about receiving some mail about our family health insurance. It was something we’d texted about previously so he didn’t need to text about it. He’s been very quiet lately with no texts and no FB liking etc. I could feel myself wanting to wonder about why and had to remind myself that none of this means anything!! At the end of the day he is still over there with OW. Unless that changes there are no signs that mean anything.

I can’t advise you about whether it’s foolish to continue to stand or not. That’s for each of us to decide and I struggle with this as well. I’ve recently kinda sorta started ‘seeing’ a very nice man. It’s very very early ‘just friends’ stage. In my case I feel I’d be a fool NOT to see where it goes with this guy… but I’d still like to put my family back together. I figure if it goes somewhere I’ll want that (putting my family back together) less and it’ll all sort itself out in the wash.

So for me it isn’t a matter of deciding whether I’m standing or not. I’m just dealing with the right now. So that’s the only advice I can give to you. Deal with the current reality. Have no expectations and don’t look for signs. If real movement happens it will be very obvious. You looking or not looking for signs that it’s happening has no influence on him and the situation. But always looking and wondering what things mean DOES affect YOUR peace and sanity. Aim to focus on your own peace and sanity. It’s the only thing you control.

[sachat3]

I think the fact he’s heavily drinking just shows okay he can’t be that happy can he.

The ow is just an insecure jealous bleep bleep. Mine ended up moving in with his ow. They bought a house together and my kids would stay every other weekend. They were 4,5&8 at the time, I left them to deal with it. Anything that involves their dad is on them. Sometimes D9 wants to come home on his weekend. Sometimes she wants to stay. It’s completely her choice. Ofcourse if she asks you respond and advise.

[One day at a time]

I also think you need to leave your adult children deal with their father whatever way they see fit and unless they ask for your input, I would stay out of it.

As for standing, well, this is what none us what to hear but, standing really should be for you, not for him or your marriage. He's going to do what he's going to do, no matter what you do. Some people stand because they truly believe that marriage is forever and even though their h/w decided to break their vows, it doesn't mean the LBS has to.

Some people stand until they get to some threshold where they feel there's no going back (e.g. the MLCer marrying the OW/OM or having a baby). Others stand until they feel back on their feet and ready to move on with life.. And I'm sure there's all sort of the other reasons.

Don't confuse the word stand with wait. If what you are doing is waiting for him to get over MLC, unfortunately, you might be wasting your time. There are no guarantees in this. Even if he eventually "wakes up", it doesn't mean he will want to go back to the marriage. I know it's hard to hear, but you really need to focus on you and your kids...

[Reinventing]

At the end of the day he is still over there with OW. Unless that changes there are no signs that mean anything.

And

So that’s the only advice I can give to you. Deal with the current reality.

I agree. Stay in reality and put on your own oxygen mask first.

Also, I really didn't want to be the OW to the OW. I respected that he could choose another life with another person--as gut wrenching and hard it was for me.

Understanding why this happened (MLC) helped me realize that it wasn't me or the marriage. But it didn't mean I knew the outcome. It helped, with time, answer that big "why" that kept running through my mind.

It also helped me turn my focus on to healing. I am thankful that that became my number one concern--to heal and become my happy self again.

I didn't break it, I couldn't fix it, but I sure could focus my attention on what helped me heal, feel better, get back on keel and do more of that. And do less of things that set me back and made me feel off kilter.

[Treasur]

Please advise.. I am staying out of their interactions and letting her deal with this on her own, correct? Unless she asks for input?

I agree with the others that your instincts are quite right on this. And that it is as true for the other kids too even if they take different approaches in how they want to deal with whatever kind of relationship they think they still have or want to have with him. It’s how we show young adults we respect them, isn’t it?

Along with a dollop of quiet compassion bc we LBS know what those seemingly relentless post BD mini-bombs feel like. Your daughter is being forced to process not just the reality of ow, and her friends’ response, but the knowledge that he lied to her. Again. That currently his words say one thing and his actions another. Working out how you feel about that reality, and what if anything you want to do with that, is tough and I can only imagine how hard it must be as a parent to watch from the sidelines.

Also while I’m shamelessly asking for support/advice.. H is drinking a ton, more than I have ever seen. Coupled with bringing OW public, and his anger at me, should I be looking at this as potential movement forward? Otherwise right now I feel like I am a fool for standing.

I think I see two implied questions here.
The first is if his recent actions imply anything positive or constructive about his growth towards being a rather better quality human. And, as others have said, that’s an unknown. Perhaps it’s a change of some sort in his behaviour but imho too early to tell (although I appreciate that sounds odd after years of MLC-type behaviour) and MLC types seem to have an extraordinary capacity for digging deeper holes long past the point where we think there is any more to dig. Imho it is as it is….and it doesn’t look like the behaviour of a calm healthy human trying to repair anything he broke….and it would probably be better for you to try not to infer anything from it at all, good or bad.

I suspect your impulse to do so though is linked to the second implied question about how you judge your own wisdom in standing and what it means to/for you. It sounds as if you are looking for evidence or signs in his behaviour that your choice was/is the right one. Or at least facing in the right direction. And that’s probably the glitch in the machine, albeit a pretty common one for we LBS. I agree with the others about treating these things as separate things….his behaviour or progress (or not) and your choice to stand (or not). Bc, if we are all honest with ourselves, if a choice to stand were based on the behaviour of MLCers post BD, none of us would stand at all, would we? 

So your choice to stand - or not, or somewhere in between - is much more about you, about what standing means to you, about what it practically looks like to you, about the cost or risks or benefits as you see them to you. Most LBS I think reach a point when we sit with that choice, probably more than once tbh, and no one here will judge you either way. But I suspect if, as you say, you feel as if you might be a fool unless you see x sign or y evidence based on his behaviour, you may well have inadvertently slid towards the standing as waiting for something (whatever that is) stance. Again, pretty common for most of us LBS, isn’t it, bc this stuff is not easy to figure out? But imho you may find it easier to reflect on your own choices, and what that means for your own next, without the distraction of too much contact or information about his doings either way.  Bc that allows you to make a choice that feels right and appropriate for where you are currently based on your own judgement and priorities.

[KayDee]

It must be really hard to get your bearings and work out what you want for yourself. Every time you create a calm space, your H pokes you. You went Smart Contact, he cattle prodded you with the 'I don't see us getting back to together'. You go NC, he acts out like a giant toddler, turning his back on you in the local diner, snubbing his children ta boot. Then he goes full on public display of OW.  I don't wish to spend too much time analyzing him, he is really acting like a small child and obviously still in a place of chaos, but it seems that this is a pattern, as he has come home and left several times. You said in your first post that you feel you should be further along - is it possible that his continual prodding keeps putting you back to square one? Kicking over your proverbial sandcastle? I completely agree with what everyone else has written, about your kids managing their own relationship with their father, so it is even more important that you prioritize your oxygen mask  because you also want to be there for them.  Your H will likely keep lashing out - bad attention is better than none - but until he looks within, this will probably remain his pattern. It's so hard to keep steady during all this. I know well the cycling of emotions. Meeting my H sets me back a little every time. But, I am determined to keep a check on this - to make sure it isn't something that completely drains me and stops me living my life to the full. It's hard to see, when in the maelstrom, but we can make choices (as opposed to react to provocations). NC, from your end, is for however long you want it to be, or maybe better put, for however long you NEED it to be.

[Treasur]

Lot of sense in what KayDee wrote. And I bet a lot of other LBS will practically recognise that pattern with boomerangs too - weird, isn’t it? 

Occurs to me as a PS that you might find it helpful - and you’re under no obligation to share it here - what standing (or not standing) practically looks like from the outside, regardless of how you feel (or your hopes) on the inside. Bc standing doesn’t need to be shared or even seen by anyone but you if you know what it means for you. Do you know?

[sachat3]

I think the thing is also, your H may have not lied when he said it was over with Ow. Maybe it was when he said that. And now it’s not. I know mine with the original Ow it was a constant on off on off. That was his circus.

My kids are 6,9&11 and I try and stay out of their relationship with him. So D9 in particular will want to come home a lot more when with him. I let her. Sometimes, especially when he lived with ow D11 didn’t want to go. I never forced her. I don’t force my kids anything with him. They get to make that choice. Sure I’m an ideal world I’d love a kid free weekend but that’s not my call. If they don’t want to go, I won’t force them. I also will never ever stop them. Like when clington got a new puppy they were always FaceTiming him (they have their own phones).

The best thing you can do is what’s right for you. You can’t pour from an empty cup. Nobody can tell you what to do, but the one thing that helped me was, if I didn’t know what to do regarding Clington I imagined the advice I’d give to my daughters. If I wouldn’t want them to accept it for them. I wouldn’t accept it for me.

[Onlythelonely]

Thank you all again for your responses.

Evermore-yes I know your H went public from the beginning with OW, and our timelines are very similar.  (After a little reflection this week I'm rethinking whether this constituted  H " going public " with OW. It was very late at night in a bar not in our hometown). Possibly just another bone headed, foggy decision. Yes it is very, very hard not to analyze each behavior and movement from H to look for which direction he might be headed. I'm a pretty analytical person by nature and this had been a difficult thing to grasp. As I get more and more detached I just see that collectively he makes zero sense and his decision making is illogical. The more evidence I add to that pile, the easier it gets to remember. I like your take of dealing with the "right now". It seems to take some of the pressure off from making permanent decisions. My counselor also uses the phrase "not yet". As in, I might some day soon be ready for D, but "not yet".

sachat3- I admire how you are handling things with your kids.  I have to stop and think about if I would handle things any differently if my kids were younger. I think there are definitely pluses and minuses to each age range. Mine are obviously out of the "co- parenting" age and making their own decisions regardless of if I tried to intervene or not. Yes you are observant that H is not in a healthy place all the way around, I keep reminding myself of that. He has not moved in with OW to play happy family, has not met her kids, and has a whole host of other unhealthy vices that all point toward general unhappiness and "escape and avoid".  I do know he was with OW when he lied to D21, but D21 does not know that.

One Day at a Time, Reinventing, Treasur - After having some time to think on this this past week, I think while I have decided to stand this entire time logically understanding that the outcome may not be what I desire, emotionally I am not to the point where I would be ok with an "ending" that does not involve reconciliation. ( though I do think I get closer as time goes on ). Therefore, I am very "on guard" for any event that might signal the absolute end. It seems like every time something happens that indicates it's over, AGAIN ( treasurs "mini-bombs"), I crumble, then regroup, then march on. So then I wonder if I am a fool for standing, as how many times am I willing to get "kicked in the teeth" and then go back for more?

Treasur you are so correct when you say that standing has to be for me, and I really do see now that detachment has to happen to be able to continue to do this and not continue to be pulled under with H.  I have seen a difference in myself the last few weeks ( at the diner, after D21 got the bar photos ) where I would have, in the past, been a blubbering mess, I can sort of shrug my shoulders incredulously and just add these behaviors to the pile.

KayDee- THANK YOU for summarizing his behavior so well, when someone repeats it back to me like you did, lightbulbs go off. He is absolutely acting like a toddler, and I can't seem to catch my breath. Not to rehash 5 years worth of behavior, but after I found out about OW ( the first time ) there was over 2 years of clinging boomerang behavior.  We went out to dinner 2/3 nights a week, and when he was not living at home, he was with the kids at home often. H and I actually still get along very well and enjoy each others company, as long as I didn't try and have R talks or pressure him ( Then I got major monster ). I think I said in my first post that had I not slowly gotten strong enough to put up taller and taller boundaries,  I think this behavior would have continued indefinitely.  What took me a long time to understand was that his monster behavior was also in protest of these boundaries. It's also partially why detachment has taken me forever. So yes NC for me right now is best.

And an update... all 3 kids have sent various levels ( from "disappointed" to "scathing" ) texts to H with the fall out of OW at the bar.  S26 has stated that OW will never be welcome in the family and he never wants to meet her, S24 won't show anyone what he sent, but I get the impression it was pretty harsh and he wants NC with H, D21 has sent him two texts and both were heart wrenching but firm. All 3 sent them without asking for my input, because they did not want me to prevent them sending to H. I am beyond proud of all 3 of them. The responses I saw from H show almost no empathy and are full of revisionist history. Kids are not letting him get away with lies, blameshifting or BS excuses. H has not been heard from in 5 days.

( MadLuv if you are reading.. they are now seeing this being done "to them". He is lying "to them", their friends are involved, and they are humiliated. You called that. And things are falling apart at the seams ).

[Treasur]

I can sort of shrug my shoulders incredulously and just add these behaviors to the pile.

And tbh, that’s what detachment often looks like imho.
So well done you.
Maybe detachment has two bits. Being detached from the outcome which is not where you are at the moment. And being detached from their behaviour which is maybe more where you have reached?

But first there is that kind of ‘blimey, it/he really is how it is’ stage….our own ‘not in Kansas anymore’ moment that comes along with some version of acceptance, isn’t there? Sounds like a much easier more passive thing than I suspect it is for most of us in RL though…..and it sounds as if your kids are going through their own version of that now and working out how to deal with what they see in the ways that currently feels best for them.  But I imagine that is hard to watch from the bench as a parent.

[UrsaMajor]

And an update... all 3 kids have sent various levels ( from "disappointed" to "scathing" ) texts to H with the fall out of OW at the bar.  S26 has stated that OW will never be welcome in the family and he never wants to meet her, S24 won't show anyone what he sent, but I get the impression it was pretty harsh and he wants NC with H, D21 has sent him two texts and both were heart wrenching but firm. All 3 sent them without asking for my input, because they did not want me to prevent them sending to H. I am beyond proud of all 3 of them. The responses I saw from H show almost no empathy and are full of revisionist history. Kids are not letting him get away with lies, blameshifting or BS excuses. H has not been heard from in 5 days.

If there is one thing that Mid-Lifers HATE above all others, it is being held accountable for their actions and the consequences associated with them. 

Forewarned is forearmed - the burn texts from the kids could go one of two ways...

• MLCH will likely either do a vanishing act (as it appears he is doing at the moment) and/or
• Monster will rear it's ugly head blaming you for their reactions....

Just so you are aware of the most likely possibilities and are prepared.   He might also monster at the kids for holding his feet to the fire (that he created)..... But, the fact that you are the stable parent that has shown you are NOT the cause and they are seeing through his historical revisionism puts you all on a much better footing to say

[sachat3]

I mean, I’m a similar time frame to you. 5 years now, 6 in November. I’ve done lots of soul searching and reading self help and I’m no longer standing. I’ve put myself in the “if” category. If clington ever becomes a person worthy of dating I’ll judge him based on who I see before me. Same way I would if it was Adam, Bob, Bill, Carl, Ted, Gregg or whoever down the pub or dating app or wherever. I’ll judge based on who’s in front of me.
But. I want to share this, not that it’s the same but it might help in some way. I’ve realised one reason I stayed was because I didn’t want to become some silly little statistic. Im currently 31 with an 11, 9&6 almost 7 year old. And at BD I was 26 with 1,3&6 year old. I think I stood because I didn’t want the judgement.
What is it that makes you want to stand?

Like you say, standing is a very personal choice. Nobody can ever tell you not to stand. I’m a firm believer of standing, if standing makes a positive impact to your life.

Your kids are showing just how resilient they are, you’re proud of them. I am too. My D9 is getting there in telling her dad things he won’t want to hear. But truth darts are just that! Truth!

[Onlythelonely]

Update/documenting ( and a question or two )

Treasur- I like your hypothesis of detaching in two parts. I am definitely more detached from his whacko behavior than before, I see the even if I do have some kind of reaction, I seem to bounce back a little quicker. I guess with practice that becomes easier every time.

Sachat-My IC discussed with me a few weeks ago about "preparing " myself for D if thats going to be the outcome. Her intention was to figure out how I deal with telling other people, facing the gossip and judgement, etc. Honestly I don't have any reservations or embarrassment about this if it happens. I just don't GAF what other people think, because I know that this is not my fault and I did everything I possible could to remain married. This is on H, and I have no intention of accepting blame or pity for what H has done.

Ursa- Love the GIF. You are spot on.  Which leads to my update...

Neither myself or 3 kids have heard from H in over 3 weeks now. (full disclosure, they are not reaching out to him either). 

A little background on this- during " high replay " 4-5 years ago, H basically went from an amazing, involved father, to an almost non-existent presence in the house.  Then after discovery of OW, there was a definite change in his relationship with them. He started making an effort to spend one on one time with the kids at least weekly, and spent time at the house with all three of them.  ( this mirrored his relationship with me as well ). Though the kids loved the increased attention, all of us felt like he was acting like an alien who landed on earth and had to check the "good father box". He was here, but not really invested, and every interaction was very scheduled and mechanical and very much on his terms.

So for them to go three weeks without communication is new for all of us, very much uncharted territory.  I'm dealing with the fallout from all three of them trying to navigate this. They are all varying degrees of hurt, angry, and incredulous over his behavior. They are all 3 holding each other accountable to not reach out to him, and they have talked to IC about this being his mess to clean up with them and that he needs to be the grown up and be accountable.

I guess one question I have are anyone's thoughts on WTF he is thinking. I bounce back and forth between he is angry at them and blaming them for NC, or he is ashamed, embarrassed, guilty, and does not want to face them, or some combination of both? ( I know, don't focus on him..but honestly if I understand the psychology behind it it helps me detach, plus I'm trying to guide my kids through this ).


Question #2.. There was another "public" sighting of H and OW in an area far from our home. I'm guessing he went away with her for a weekend.  I have read RCR's articles about what happens when the OW gets comfortable in the relationship, that this is actually a good thing. I'm having trouble understanding WHY that would be. Does anyone have experience with this when it happens? H has said in the past that OW is very jealous and prone to temper tantrums when she doesn't get her way.  That also there is emotional blackmail about what he "owes" her. I'm not sure if I believe him but it is nice to think about.

Thanks everyone

[MadLuv]

I guess one question I have are anyone's thoughts on WTF he is thinking. I bounce back and forth between he is angry at them and blaming them for NC, or he is ashamed, embarrassed, guilty, and does not want to face them, or some combination of both? ( I know, don't focus on him..but honestly if I understand the psychology behind it it helps me detach, plus I'm trying to guide my kids through this )

  I also think understanding the psychology has helped me. I think it is a little of both on your question ( IMO) I know my XH is embarrassed and shameful, but he also still has moments that he blames the kids also. I think it is that not being able to fully accept their actions that makes it a little of both

Question #2.. There was another "public" sighting of H and OW in an area far from our home. I'm guessing he went away with her for a weekend.  I have read RCR's articles about what happens when the OW gets comfortable in the relationship, that this is actually a good thing. I'm having trouble understanding WHY that would be. Does anyone have experience with this when it happens? H has said in the past that OW is very jealous and prone to temper tantrums when she doesn't get her way.  That also there is emotional blackmail about what he "owes" her. I'm not sure if I believe him but it is nice to think about [ /quote] I think it is good because they let themselves slip. They start to show their own flaws. The more secure they feel then they think there is no threat. My XH OW/wife definitely has got more and more brazen on her ignorance and materialism. She thinks she is bragging, but she actually is embarrassing herself like a teenager that has not learned values. The OW/OM truly are always affair downs.

[forthetrees]

Looked at your prior posts and here are some thoughts:

He got caught in a lie by your D with bar pic and probably at first was embarrassed but could have turned it around to how dare she judge him with OW support. He may have twisted it to the point where the kids owe him an apology before reconnection. Or... good ole compartmentalization in high gear. Obviously he is omitting the part about him being the parent and the one who should be reaching out. Sounds like he dug a really big hole and is wallowing in it. In the end your kiddos may be better off with NC while he´s incapable of being honest and considerate of their feelings as hard as this silent treatment is. Also, in a weird way it confirms that something is terribly wrong. They will do best by going NC to regain their emotional centers vs. using NC as a punishment. If they use it as a punishment it will hurt them as well. While you cannot control a MLCer, you can grow on your own. The MLCer never gets to take your ability to grow.

[Treasur]

Imho Vanishers vanish primarily to avoid dealing with something difficult.
Then they backfill the space with some justification that absolves them and blames someone else.
But their primary drive is avoidance.

Sounds like your h might have a quadruple whammy to avoid - the challenge/hurt of your three kids plus the potential displeasure of a jealous ow. So he gets to avoid dealing with his kids’ reactions and he gets to avoid dealing with ow busting his bits. (I think RCR’s point is that standard ow types lose some of their ‘adoring’ mask when they get comfortable so they tend to show their less appealing colours?) Meanwhile both he and ow get to feel better by blaming your kids and doubtless you….

I agree with ftt though that helping your kids start to see NC as being more about a healthy protective boundary for them as opposed to a punishment for him is a good thing. If for no other reason than it will help them to take care of their own wellbeing appropriately when he next pops up with some version of rage, sadz or let’s pretend nothing happened attempt at charm.

[UrsaMajor]

I guess one question I have are anyone's thoughts on WTF he is thinking. I bounce back and forth between he is angry at them and blaming them for NC, or he is ashamed, embarrassed, guilty, and does not want to face them, or some combination of both? ( I know, don't focus on him..but honestly if I understand the psychology behind it it helps me detach, plus I'm trying to guide my kids through this ).

Stick your elbow in a pot of green and tell me what it tastes like.... You'll have about as much success in trying to figure out WTF he is thinking....

His "thought processes" look a lot like this....

I agree with ftt though that helping your kids start to see NC as being more about a healthy protective boundary for them as opposed to a punishment for him is a good thing. If for no other reason than it will help them to take care of their own wellbeing appropriately when he next pops up with some version of rage, sadz or let’s pretend nothing happened attempt at charm.

This is vitally important. NC can NOT be a way to "punish" the Mid-Lifer or to "show them the error of their way." NC is used to protect the LBS and others involved (or not) with the Mid-Lifer by allowing the LBS & Co. to regain their own sense of equilibrium, to heal, and to establish boundaries that are good for the LBS & Co. NC is a method of self-protection for the LBS.

[MadLuv]

( MadLuv if you are reading.. they are now seeing this being done "to them". He is lying "to them", their friends are involved, and they are humiliated. You called that. And things are falling apart at the seams )

It’s unfortunate, but when we step back they do their own reveal and damage that can’t be hidden. What I will caution also… you may find your kids bringing up the situation. They may even talk down about H, but make sure you never engage in that or agree. It is ok for them to be mad at their Dad, but it is still their Dad. They can’t hear someone else say it. If that makes sense. I also always give my kids an out on their firm thoughts on their Dad. The “ I’m done with him” “ I’m never taking to him again” etc. my response is always open ended. Hopefully something will change, leave the door ajar for him, accept a relationship that you can accept.

I also always say he was a very good man. Even when my D says, “ I have no hope for him” my reply is “ let’s hope he finds his way” I do have a fear that if he shows any interest now and makes an effort I will be the lost parent again, because they are so starved for their missing father and in turmoil. So, I am careful on any interaction now. If I am not sure on a response I give none. I do tip toe and think heavily before I speak and honestly try to change the subject quickly.

[sachat3]

So your second question struck me. The ow will do all she can to make her presence known. My landlord rents my house (lives in since 2011 before BD) next door (clington and family lived there for a bit) and the house next to them. Ow genuinely wanted to move next door to me. Luckily my landlord lives abroad and my landlords agent is clingtons stepdad, the girls grandad and his priority is the girls. So he refused. She’d have felt more awkward than me. Let me tell you.

In reply to me, I was never married so I don’t have any notion on that. But the closest thing I have is D6. She’s autistic and currently in mainstream school. I do not believe she’ll end primary school the same way D11 just did. I’d love it if she did. I just don’t think she will. So now I’ve started looking at specialist schools for her. I’m just getting a feel for where they are, working out the route, how to get her there etc etc. Purelt because, they’ve moved her once. So I know we’re on borrowed time so to speak and I’d much rather jump, before I’m pushed. Do you see what I’m saying? Would it not be better for you to prepare, for a divorce. If you don’t need it fine. But you don’t want to be BD again

[Onlythelonely]

As usual- thank you all for your replies.

 As I told my IC this week, I feel like the episode of "I Love Lucy" where she works in the chocolate factory with the conveyor belt going too fast. Currently I'm fielding changes/problems so fast I can't seem to find time to process one before I'm dealt another, in addition to dealing with everyday work/back to college/ adult children garden variety issues.  I'm barely treading water ATM.

 The day after I posted last, H reached out to all 3 kids by text. "I love you and miss you".   D21 an S26 have agreed to meet him for dinner this week. They both state they are ready to "let him have it".   S24 is still NC as far as I know.   H also texted D21 that "he is not ready to talk to your mom yet".

FTT and Treasur - As far as supporting the kids and NC.. I have been VERY careful not to "badmouth" H to any of the kids. ( this also goes back to the discussion of if telling the kids the truth is "badmouthing".. as H thinks it is ).   I'm honest, I share minimal details- sort of on a "need to know" basis. I have also told the kids that they need to be patient with me as I have never been in this position before, and that I reserve the right to pause on answering any of their questions until I can think through ( and discuss with IC ) whether kids need to know that information. For example- they all three want to know how I found out about OW, and I don't think that's information that they need to have, nor does it serve any purpose. It's tricky. 

I think I'm repeating myself, but I also keep stating that I want them to have a healthy relationship with their H, but we cannot support unhealthy behavior, and they should not be subjected to him lying to them or being disrespectful.  Currently, they have a worse opinion of him then I do, but I am trying to " give them an out", so to speak, by saying that H "can" decide to make healthy decisions, and a choice to go NC does not have to be permanent if H chooses to do the hard work of repairing his relationships with them.

MadLuv - I think we are on the same page. Trying to help preserve their relationship with H, while exemplifying holding boundaries while he's off the rails, while not looking like I am in denial of what he currently is, a super intricate balance.

Ursa- Thank you for the laugh. I need the reminders that he is illogical. Otherwise I try and follow the logic.

Sachat- I do see what you are saying. I have spoken to an attorney and I am prepared for D if if comes to that. Fortunately for me my kids are grown so we will avoid hashing out child support/ visitation, and financially I will be fine. I am very lucky in that sense.
Your OW story about moving next door is so whacko.  So far I have not had to deal with a public OW. I think it has it's pluses and minuses.

Sorry I feel like I'm a bit all over the place today. Just trying to rebalance and waiting to see the outcome of the kids convo with him this week.

Thanks all!

[Onlythelonely]

So I have a brief update and also need the collective hive mind of this forum to help talk me through the latest..

I keep reading here for support, but not much has happened in my world since I last posted in August so I haven't added anything. I'm still working hard on GAL'ing, supporting my kids, etc..

The last I posted, 2 out of the 3 kids were going to meet H for dinner. In sort of an unexpected twist, my S26 did a full 180 after this dinner, and has been sort of aligning with H. He and H have become drinking buddies, and S26 is justifying his dad's behavior by placing the blame of the breakdown of the marriage squarely on me. Currently he does not see the dysfunction in his dad's life, an is happy to hang out with H several nights a week. S26 and I have had two conversations about this that turned controversial very quickly. ( the last one he told me I was "f'ing crazy"  and hung up on me). I have backed way off of our relationship in general, trying to give us both some space and preserve my relationship with him.

S24 is VLC with H, very supportive of me, tries hard to stay neutral. D21 stays neutral but treats us equally. That's fair, but as I have posted before, I struggle with this because H's behavior to the family as a whole is so destructive.

With the help of my counselor, I realized that I could not continue to lean on my kids for support through out this. I was alienating them, as they don't agree with how I have approached this. Over the course of about two months, I finally reached out to two of my best friends and filled them in on the entire situation in order to widen my support circle. Up until this point, only my kids, my parents, and one other friend ( who does not know H ) know what is going on. It has helped immensely, and has made it a little easier for me to think objectively and even find humor in H's behavior.

As far as H and myself.. I saw him once in September at a school function. We pick up like nothing is wrong, make jokes, are comfortable, etc.  I have stayed extremely dark otherwise, with contact initiated by me only if it has something to do with finances, and even more rarely, the kids. 

He reached out to me about a month ago. I need a new car, and because I am a SAHM, can't get one without his income. He offered to cosign a loan and help me shop.  He also offered to work cooperatively over the holidays so that the kids aren't stressed with the time management of it all. We texted back and forth a whole weekend, made jokes, and I let my guard down a teensy bit that we had good communication going, and that he was willing to help me with the car.

Silly me. The next week I got visual confirmation that OW is still definitely on the scene.  I had been sort of toying with what my next steps were going to be, but this sort of kicked them into high gear.  ( OW is a work wife, and I have heard from many sources that everyone knows about the A, and it has been reported to HR.  I did not think I was really "exposing", just presenting my side ).   I texted 3 of H's friends who know me, work with H and OW,  and who are pro marriage.  I sort of used the Marriage Builder's plan B template/ RCR targeted approach, stating that I was aware of A, I did not support A, I was standing for my Marriage, and that I was asking for their support.  I was kind, I was non-judgmental, and strictly focused on repairing our marriage.  I sent it to all 3, and then sent a copy to H and OW.

I heard back from all 3 friends. They are were extremely supportive, empathetic, and dumbfounded.  Turns out that none of the 3 of them knew that the A was going on.  H is very highly respected in his career field, has several leadership positions, and is the last person on earth that any of them thought capable of this. The OW is also not a person that anyone could see H being attracted to.  They all recognize that H works too many hours, has withdrawn from each of them as a friend, does not share feelings with anyone, and is drinking heavily, so they are with me that this is a bigger issue than just an A. They are greatly concerned for him, and each of them is willing to reach out to him to try and support him as well as me. It did me a world of good to talk to each of them and know that they support us.

However, I don't think H was such a big fan of my approach. I did not hear back from either H or OW ( I have never talked to her and don't care to).  I did hear from my S26 that H saw an attorney this week to file for divorce.  Quick back story- he has threatened divorce no less than 8 times in the last 3 years. Every time he feels threatened or challenged he throws divorce out into the conversation. So I was not NOT expecting this. I almost welcome it, as H has some hair- brained ideas of what divorce is going to look like from his fantasyland perch, and I think a dose of reality from an attorney might shake him up a little bit. ( spoiler alert, it would not be in his favor ).

But it has thrown me back into major cycling.  If he really did file, I think it's in direct reaction to me exposing him.  Typically when he is pressured or confronted, he monsters hard and then calms down, even if it takes a month or two.  Logically I know this pattern of his, but I can't help but have major anxiety about it. Then I question if my choices were smart, if I should have exposed to more people, or less people, or if I should continue to expose if nothing shifts.  I know it's all a gamble and the only thing I can do is make the best choice in the moment with the information I have.  My two friends who are aware of the situation are proud of me for standing up for myself, but I'd really like the input of those who know MLC.
I have read here that MLC's often threaten to file then do nothing, or file then let it lapse.  It still freaks me out and I could use some support.

Thanks all,
Only

[Treasur]

What freaks you out about it? Can you break that down a little bit bc it would make it easier for us to support you?

[UrsaMajor]

There are two things at play here in my view:

1) S26 has a new Santa Daddy Drinking Buddy. Let's be blunt. S26 is getting to party and not have to pay for it.... One doesn't bite the hand that is paying the bar tab and if MLCH is drinking heavily, S26 is going to ride that gravy train as long as possible....

2) Exposing him like that is like poking a sleeping bear with a red-hot branding iron. Mid-Lifers HATE being held accountable and are happy as long as they think they are getting away with their shenanigans. You've outted him with all the consequences that involves. He is bound to react and react hard. If the three friends really hold him accountable and express their displeasure with his actions, you can expect that they will quickly be moved into the "enemy" camp with you. While this may feel good in the near-term, specially now that you have additional support in your corner, like any action, there will be consequences. Maybe he does file. Fine. Maybe he calms down after a while, Also fine. The REAL question is what is YOU*R path in either of the two scenarios. THAT is where you have control.

[Onlythelonely]

Treasur- (Why is it that you have such a knack for taking any giant rambling post and whittle the purpose of it down into one tiny sentence? )

I thought about your question over the weekend. What freaks me out about it?

If I had to sum it up, it's maybe two things. One: the uncertainty of if he is/is going to file.  I'm ALMOST to the point where I just wish he'd pick a direction already, it would be easier than this limbo.  Two: If he files, it feels very final to me. And if I'm very honest with my self, it's a let down of an expectation that " I did thing A ( expose ) so therefore he should do thing B
( end things with OW and come home )". Which I know logically I shouldn't expect, especially right away, but still do.   Ack.. so maybe that's three things.

It doesn't freak me out to be by myself. I've been doing it 95% solo for 20 months now. It also doesn't freak me out for people to know the truth, I'm not ashamed of anything if he does file for D.

Ursa-

1) You are correct about S26. I don't think I've mentioned that S26 also has some mild behavioral challenges and his frontal lobe has not quite caught up to his chronological age , so think of him as more a 19-21 year old who worships the ground H walks on. Rightfully so until MLC happened. H is his super hero.  S26 and I have little more contentious relationship, mostly because of the history of me being the SAHM dealing with him, school, homework, therapy, discipline, etc. It is much easier for him to blame me instead of H, and I get cognitively why he has to do those mental gymnastics to try and make sense of this whole ordeal. And yes, free beer doesn't hurt. ( Also the Santa Daddy Drinking Buddy moniker is hilarious. I'm totally stealing it. )

Yes I poked the bear-( harder than I really intended to because I thought the 3 friends knew).  I also knew he would monster. I've been at this long enough to know his pattern. I am doubting that he will talk or listen to any of the three friends, but it does make me feel better that someone knows where I stand in all of this. It will be interesting to see if he cuts off their friendship.  He has already cut off everyone outside of work, which is why I had to go to work friends to have any impact.

I also found out over the weekend, from a totally unrelated source, that several people assumed I knew about the A, and that I was just "ok" with it as a marital arrangement . So now doubly glad that maybe this helps put those rumors to rest.

 As far as what my plans are with whichever way he goes and the control I have- I have an attorney lined up and am financially prepared for D.  If he doesn't file and A ends, well I'm prepared for that too.  If he doesn't file and doesn't end things with OW, - that one I have to think about.  As I'm typing and thinking this through, I think that ties into a fourth thing I'm freaking about, which would be did I do the right thing by exposing ( enough, too much, too little, at all ) so that that third scenario doesn't continue.  Again, logically I know I tried to make the best decision I could with info I had, and the result is out of my control, but my mind keeps spinning with the "what if's".

Thanks-
Only

 

[Treasur]

Partly how my normal (when not traumatised lol) brain works, partly my professional training as a coach…but thank you for such a nice compliment.

Ok, so three freak out things at least?
- uncertainty of if he is/is going to file and that limbo feeling
- that if he files, it feels very final to you.
- a let down expectation that you did thing A therefore he should do thing B  but didn’t
Any more? Bc it’s pretty normal to have a few things swirling around?

What I hope you can see bc it’s laid out more starkly here is that most of these three things are more about your mindset and less about his actions? Which is good bc it means you have options.

Perhaps dig a little deeper into what you are thinking and feeling about each one…..limbo vs finality, say. Or the difference between causation and correlation.  And why you think what you think and the external evidence for it, say? And what do you get from thinking that way vs perhaps what seems to be the cost? How it feels in your body when you think one thing or a different thing?

Bc we DO have at least two options even when it feels like we don’t lol. We can choose to think differently about something. Or if not quite yet, we can choose to ACT as if we think differently until we do. But it tends to mean that we need to have a bit of a closer look at what we think now and how it helps us or doesn’t. If only bc, put simply, we humans tend to stay stuck in thinking ways we also think we perhaps should not bc there is some kind of payoff from it….even if it is a squirmy sort of payoff.

[OffRoad]

I am simply going to ask, what do YOU want that you can control?

It seems like you are just waiting for your H to make all the decisions, while trying to force him into making one. Is that truly what you want? Most times when you back someone in a corner by "exposing them", they feel the need to defend what they did and it makes it harder for them to leave the situation. Because they have to prove they are doing the right thing. Or not doing the wrong thing.

If you exposed the A to manipulate your H to do something, was it maybe because you are tired of waiting around?