[lost88]

Well - I can't say this is all new but here goes. My W 48, had an affair 11 years ago. The kids were younger 7&5  and she began hanging with single women and going out more often. Eventually I caught her in many lies and she came clean. She said she got
caught up in the attention and her friends were doing it as well.Told her she had decide what she wanted before we could decide possible next steps. Went to counseling and eventually things were repaired. But she has always enjoyed her alone time.So lately she’s been distant, short and no longer I love you’s or kisses when she leaves. I’ve asked if we are ok and eventually I pull it out of her. She doesn’t regret having kids and loves them but wonders what life would’ve been otherwise. Tells me she loves me and I’m a great father and husband and this is her process alone. I can’t help because it’s not about me. Even said if she moved out our daughter would be with her because they are very close. I was floored! Together for 21 years married for 18. She said she doesn’t know what the future holds but wants to work a meaningful job, and may just want to be single. Claims she isn’t looking or has anyone in mind but has regrets from earlier in life and plenty of baggage she’s hasn’t dealt with. Everyday is so uncomfortable. We talk , but not
For long, under the same roof, and I’m trying to process what I have done wrong? I felt her pulling away and glad I pulled it from her. She said she feels much better it’s on the table and now I feel worse. All I’ve ever wanted was a family and now I may be the one that gets cut out ?
Has said she loves me and I’m her best friend and if we went our own ways she still needs me as her friend …each day is torture! I’m not playing fix it, giving space, but stomach is on knots. Holiday was ok, not as distant but still very noticeable. I feel powerless !! She tells me she will keep me posted on her decisions and doesn’t plan on making any quickly ….
Went thru something similar (not as raw) after 2nd child - was unhappy with being only a mom, sad, and depressed but that was short lived. Said we were always friends first so let’s just be friends as she works thru this. It’s scary she has thought some
Of this though. Son going to college next year has likely been another trigger but I can’t wrap my head around any of this ….. Lost

[lost88]

It’s amazing how consistent behavior is amongst the stories I have read and my own. It’s like I don’t know who this person is. Unfortunately, it’s becoming a little easier to care less when there is nothing I can do. I feel bad for her too because she has as many questions as I do and answers are absent. Not sure how long I can live in limbo but I want to give her some time. This is by far the hardest experience in my life and when this moves forward my son is going to have some real issues. I spent time with him yesterday and he was upset that his friends parents have been having issues and it’s not getting better. It broke my heart that he hasn’t a clue it’s the same in his world right now. I almost felt guilty as well. He’s 17 and loves family. Detaching has pro’s and cons and I’m learning that each day. I don’t wish this on anyone ….

[UrsaMajor]

The "Oh, we will no longer be a couple but we can still be BFF's" thing is typical for a Mid-Lifer... they think they can just have all the benefits and none of the responsibilities of the ending of the marriage. 

Mine said the same thing until I stopped being there at her beck and call... "Can you fix my sink? Can you help me get my dog to the vet? Can you do this, that or the other thing?" When I finally started saying "No" the BFF idea quickly ended, particularly after I told her that she could ask some of her other friends for help as well and that I was not available 24x7 anymore, that I had been fired form that position and that one of the reasons she gave for ending the marriage was that she felt she needed to show that she could do it all herself.... So, you go do it babe....

[KayDee]

This seems to be in the archived threads - hence why no responses, maybe a moderator can move it?

[UrsaMajor]

This seems to be in the archived threads - hence why no responses, maybe a moderator can move it?

Done. Don't know why it was in the Archives Folder - maybe got started there by accident....

UM

[lost88]

Tks for moving this.
I have some questions. My wife isn’t nasty or mean but is struggling like most spouses here. It’s hard to trust her but we still talk, text and discuss the kids. She doesn’t wanna do anything with me since I’m in the life that she’s so unhappy with. Should I not initiate conversations at all? Just keep things short and functioning ? If she wants to talk - I want to help here. I get that she doesn’t want my help but we aren’t fighting and never had. She’s confused, depressed, and just unhappy with her life - all aspects.

[UrsaMajor]

The advice from the site (and from me as well) is NOT to engage in Relationship ("R")  talks. They are usually counterproductive at best and activate the Monster at worst. Being polite, friendly, even supportive (so long as it does not harm you emotionally/mentally) is perfectly reasonable but discussing the marriage, the relationship, etc., is an exercise in futility. The reasons that the Mod-lifer has for being unhappy at 10:00 on a Friday will likely be different form those at 10:25 on Saturday if you get my meaning.

The Mid-Lifer isn't really interested in "improving" the R while they are in the tunnel because, to them, the marriage is root cause of whatever problems they are having. Rather than look inward to find the actual cause (be it FOO, lack of self-esteem, lack of the ability to soothe one's own self, etc) the Mid-Lifer finds an external "scapegoat" (read "the marriage," "the LBS," etc.) and focuses the blame there.

[Treasur]

I don’t know if your wife is in MLC or not….time will tell…or if she is just doing a do-over of what she did 11 years ago bc it is who she is and what she does when she feels dissatisfied with her life. You will reach your own conclusions about that.

I prefer to focus less on that and more on how you are doing as the LBS in the situation as you see it bc, after all, you are the one who has come here looking for support.

Part of that imho is encouraging you to focus on the observable facts you can see and giving you a safe space to think out loud about what feels do-able or not to you and for you.

She said she doesn’t know what the future holds but wants to work a meaningful job, and may just want to be single. Claims she isn’t looking or has anyone in mind but has regrets from earlier in life and plenty of baggage she’s hasn’t dealt with.

This may be so, and it does sound as if she is looking for a ‘magic happy fix’. I’d be surprised if so but just to be open-minded, is she doing anything constructive like working with a decent IC or finding a meaningful job that looks like someone taking responsibility for dealing with their own mess or baggage? Much like you have done in coming here.
And how are your finances organised? Bc folks in search of a happy fix can spend a lot of cash and not care much about the damage that might cause others.

I’m trying to process what I have done wrong?….

You are probably a normal imperfect human….but I hope you can see that your role in her unhappy list of ‘maybe I want x or y’ has very little to do with you. Did you make her have an affair or lock her in the home afterwards or force her to do things she now regrets? Have you prevented her from having a meaningful job? Do you even know what her early baggage is let alone pack it for her? Did you hold a gun to her head to get her to marry you? No? Thought not. I’m sure you may have your own regrets or imperfections, as most of us do, but no, you did nothing wrong that caused this. This is about her, not about you. Having said that, you may find yourself deciding to take a different approach to her and your relationship from here on, given the situation, bc we LBS tend to do that as we begin to think more about our own needs.

I felt her pulling away and glad I pulled it from her. She said she feels much better it’s on the table and now I feel worse….

What do you think you have gained from ‘pulling it out of her’? Why are you glad you did? And why do you feel worse now?
I hope you can see from your own life experience that ‘pulling’ things out of people tends to result in a kind of ‘trickle truth’, that there is a fair chance that she is lying or at best not telling other ‘truths’? Bc that’s how humans in this kind of situation work, isn’t it? And truth being ‘pulled out’ tends to suggest less real remorse or holding oneself accountable for one’s own bad actions….like a teenager tbh who admits to smoking a cigarette but doesn’t tell you about the weed   

And of course she feels better…..she has told you what she wants to, and now has the power and control of everyone waiting on eggshells for her next announcement. She may even feel as if you have in some weird way given her permission to keep doing what she’s doing. Has she always been a pretty entitled kind of character? Bc what struck me most about your post is that she seems to feel entitled to throw a hand grenade into your life (again, bc I guess it felt like that 11 years ago too?) and that the rest of you will just wait in line until she decides what she wants? And that,perhaps, you are thinking this way too?

All I’ve ever wanted was a family and now I may be the one that gets cut out ?…..

Please don’t run off down this mental cul-de-sac. Partly bc it’s not helpful. Partly bc it’s not accurate. Partly bc your fear of it makes you vulnerable to being manipulated. Whatever unfolds, and none of us know that yet, you are still a father to your children. You are likely going to be the only stable empathic protective parent they will have for a while bc entitled folks hunting a magic happy are rarely decent parents. Your kids are going to have their own box of confused feelings about your wife’s behaviour and they are old enough that, if you separate, you and they will have more freedom to shape their relationship with you. And navigating this s$itshow usually causes most LBS parents to dig deep and focus on their kids as they shift their focus from their spouse’s drama.

Has said she loves me and I’m her best friend and if we went our own ways she still needs me as her friend …

Well, she may. But grown ups know that actions matter more than words, and choices bring effects.
I think the biggest message I want to convey to you is that, right now, she is NOT your friend. She is not behaving like a friend or someone who loves you, at least in my definition of love. What about yours?
You get to choose…it really isn’t all about what she wants, is it, even if she thinks it is? She doesn’t have to be your enemy, but truly this woman now is not your friend….and it will help you if you can change your expectations of her accordingly imho. And start thinking less about what she wants and more about what you need and your own boundaries. (Useful aid to reflection here https://psychcentral.com/lib/10-way-to-build-and-preserve-better-boundaries ) Which is normal for most LBS where you are. What do you need? What are you prepared to give? What feels doable? And what does not?

each day is torture!…..

This imho is the useful bit to focus on for yourself right now. Think of it like a kind of experiment. What is most making it feel like torture? What would need to happen for you to feel less tortured? Which bits of that are in your hands and which are not?
And I am so sorry. Without making too many assumptions, most of us here have been in your shoes at least for a period of time and it is awful. We get it. Even with time and distance, most of us would say it was the worst experience of our life. But what we can say from the other side is that it will not always feel like this, that there is a life on the other side regardless of what happens, and that there are things you can do to navigate it and temper the damage.
How are you doing on the basics? Sleep, food, exercise, work, emotional wellbeing, focusing on other small pleasures of life that have nothing to do with your wife or your marriage? What kind of support system do you have? Friends, family, a decent therapist so you have a safe place to think out loud and feel seen, heard and valued? What do you do that helps you feel just 1% better on a really bad day? How do you protect yourself and your kids from her behaviour? Where do you go and what do you do to give yourself a break from the strain of it?

We’re not in the business of telling you what to do about your marriage as it stands. We will respect whatever choice you make and try to support you in finding a way to do it that is as healthy as possible for you and your kids. And your choices may evolve as the situation evolves; that’s ok too.

What can we most usefully help you out with right now?
What do you see as your most pressing priorities?

[Baxter1]

Welcome Lost, first off sorry you’re here. Secondly Treasure and UM are good people and They give great advice. I have an at home since 3/23, and yes it is uncomfortable living with an at home MLCer. Not sure if she’s in a separate room or you still share a bed. When all this started with her asking for ‘space’ I set myself up in the man cave. It’s not horrible to have your own space and her hers. If  anyone should be kicked out of the bed it should have been her but I’ve gone this long, it is what it is. Not sure if she wants you to leave the home, mine tried but I held my ground.
If it  comes up I would tell her you’re not leaving. You’re comfortable in the original life you built together. If she wants a new life she’s free to go find it out there.
If she remains an at home I would recommend giving her space, you may have to eat meals alone, or with the kids and not her. The whole thing sucks but eventually you get into a routine of a new normal.
As for conversations I just take her lead. Sometimes we go days with nothing, then she’ll text
Me out of the blue with a picture of a deer in the backyard, or a picture of the kids when they were little. They cycle through a lot, everything is a damn cycle. As for relationship talks I wouldn’t, mine brings it up about every 2 months (cycles!)and I confirm I’m staying put. As expressed by others take care of you, you didn’t break her and you can’t fix her. Also I’ve been reading Hearts Blessings, great book if you get a chance.

Again sorry you’re here

[mcm64d]

The reasons that the Mod-lifer has for being unhappy at 10:00 on a Friday will likely be different form those at 10:25 on Saturday if you get my meaning.

The Mid-Lifer isn't really interested in "improving" the R while they are in the tunnel because, to them, the marriage is root cause of whatever problems they are having. Rather than look inward to find the actual cause (be it FOO, lack of self-esteem, lack of the ability to soothe one's own self, etc) the Mid-Lifer finds an external "scapegoat" (read "the marriage," "the LBS," etc.) and focuses the blame there.

UM this may be the most complete and concise explanation for the majority of our member's issues!! Excellently done! Only thing I would add, but please remember I am new, is that the spouse is the easiest scapegoat as the MLCer has everyday interaction and can blame the LBS for anything they'd like- like the time you woke up with bad bed-hair, or the day you forgot to close the toothpaste tube.....

[lost88]

Thanks for the reply

She has been looking into going back to school, as well as entertaining other jobs. She’s told me countless times that this is all about her, and she hast to go through this journey alone. The finances are separated, so there’s some insulation there, but she has been enjoying herself more often. I guess I feel better knowing where her mind is versus the way things were going. At that point I was unaware, and it hurt more because I had no idea that it was such a catastrophic situation. So yes, she felt better, and I felt worse, but I’d rather not live in the dark. she has said several times that she can’t ignore how unhappy she is, even though she knows it will blow up our family. It’s something she said she hast to work through and is obviously going to take a lot of time. i’m not sure on the boundaries yet. Yes we’re still in the same bed and in the same household. I’m not going anywhere. I don’t think she has the intention of doing anything anytime in the near future. She said she needs some time to work through this. I guess unfortunate that there’s been no monitoring at all. We can have a conversation and talk for sometime about what she’s going through, her feelings, and how she just doesn’t know. Obviously I’m trying to do this less often. I am staying busy and have a couple of trusted friends I can confide in. When we’re at home, we will talk in passing and usually are in separate rooms. So I’ve been making an effort to do the things outside the home that I need to accomplish when she is home. Overall, I think I’m doing much better than I was two weeks ago. I’m sleeping better, working out, and back to a regular diet. A big part is from all the reading. I’ve done on this site and I want to thank you all.😴

[lost88]

This is where my situation seems a little bit different. She doesn’t hate me blame me or say that I’m the one that caused any of her unhappiness. She said she doesn’t have a bad word to say about me to any of our family or friends if things don’t work out. Unfortunately I’ve not seen this monster, but I guess I’m early in the process and that may happen. She’s actually a kind person. It makes me sad to watch her struggle knowing that there’s nothing I can do to help her. Thank you for the recommendation on the book I’m going to look into that as well .

[Treasur]

Well, monster may or may not come out….not all monster. Or not in words anyway. Tbh, being blunt, monster tends to rear its’ head when you say No to something they want or when real life throws a few adult curve balls, and right now, your wife is getting what she currently wants.

Your wife may normally be a kind person. But I’d suggest that what she is doing and asking of you right now isn’t very kind at all.

[xyzcf]

Not all show "monster" behavior. Mine never did towards me.

Although there are many similarities, each situation is different as well.

Remembering that their crisis is not about you and not about your marriage helps to navigate through these tough days. And it is really heartbreaking for the LBSer.

I have read a few thoughts from the person in crisis that "they felt they had to leave or they would die". They are having a major crisis of epic proportions and we unfortunately are collateral damage.

It is really hard to see this person we have loved morph into someone that we don't recognize, whose actions and behaviors go against everything that they once were. MLC seems like a very selfish and impulsive time and confusing, both for us and for the MLCer.

As Ursa said :

The reasons that the Mod-lifer has for being unhappy at 10:00 on a Friday will likely be different form those at 10:25 on Saturday if you get my meaning.

This "changing their minds" is confusing and normally, if there is a problem in our relationship, we talk, argue, find a resolution....in MLC, there is no desire to resolve whatever it is that is making them unhappy, because as I said...it's not us and not our marriage.

Their actions may not be "kind" but remembering that they are in crisis helps us to step away from the insanity and see that it isn't just to us that they have changed so dramatically. They walk away from other family members, children even pets. They build friendships with people they would never have been friends with before.

There is nothing we can do...in some respects they are "lost"..whatever caused them to go into a crisis is a real "event" that has created tremendous chaos in them...and for the ones who share what it was like for them, many will say they have no clue why they did what they did.

I don't know what to call it psychologically, but there is some kind of break in their psyches. In my mind, related to things that happened way before we ever knew them.

Take care of yourself. Talking to her about things other than your relationship is fine if you are ok with that.

You'll get lots of different advice here. You can sort through what applies and this is a time of deep reflection of who yo are and how you want your life to be.

[lost88]

The most common answer is “I’m sorry” and “I don’t know”
I do occasionally see signs that she is similar to her old self but not often around me. I think I remind her of her reality and that depresses her. I’m getting stronger each day and thank you all for the support. I almost feel bad I didn’t know this was a thing and others have been dealing with this for years …. Guess it’s my turn …
Holidays are gonna be hard to fake this year

[lost88]

Has counseling helped much with others MLC’s? Is there any hope at all ? Has anyone had success ?  Regardless of our future I’ve told her if she leaves she takes herself with her … and she knows she can’t be happy with anyone or anything until she’s happy with herself …

[xyzcf]

I have not seen "success" with counseling as usualy the MLCer doesn't think there is anything "wrong" and they do not go or continue with any counseling.

Is there any hope at all ? Has anyone had success

There are "return stories". Those posters have a pink or purple color for their icon. Many of the stories are archieved because people do not come back for long to write about their marriages.

https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=5763.0

is a thread that people have written about returns.

At first, all I could focus on was that he had to come back but over time I learned to live with this phrase

"live as though he is never coming back"

I did feel "hope" when I read return stories, and I needed that to get through the day sometimes...gradually that hope shifts and acceptance occurs.

Yes, the holidays are really tough.

[WHY]

This is where my situation seems a little bit different. She doesn’t hate me blame me or say that I’m the one that caused any of her unhappiness. She said she doesn’t have a bad word to say about me to any of our family or friends if things don’t work out. Unfortunately I’ve not seen this monster, but I guess I’m early in the process and that may happen. She’s actually a kind person. It makes me sad to watch her struggle knowing that there’s nothing I can do to help her. Thank you for the recommendation on the book I’m going to look into that as well .

Not yet.  But if she’s in MLC.   Brace yourself.  Mine took about 6 months post BD before I saw full monster.   

[FrenchHusband]

Has counseling helped much with others MLC’s? Is there any hope at all ? Has anyone had success ?  Regardless of our future I’ve told her if she leaves she takes herself with her … and she knows she can’t be happy with anyone or anything until she’s happy with herself …

Hi lost88 and welcome in our joyous club !

You are talking about "success" I have come to the conclusion that, facing a MLC, the best is to stay humble and rethink what is a "success". IMO (opinion shared by many people here), we LBS have no positive influence on the crisis and the outcome. At worse, we can lenghten and deepen the crisis and the damages, at best, we are neutral.

I am not sure whether your question about counseling relates to IC (individual) or MC (marriage) ? I will answer assuming it is the second one, if you talk about IC, I have nothing to add to xyzcf's answer.

For MC to be successfull, you need 2 people having same goal of working on the marriage, and for an undetermined period, your W might not want to work on the marriage. As it is said here, you can not applause with one hand.

I had last July a MC, initiated by my wife. Thanks to the wise advices I got here, it was a success IMO, meaning it had no negative impact on the crisis. My wife was considering a separation before the MC (maybe expecting it). Currently she is still at home.
Baxter1 had also MC in September or October, and IMO it was also "a success" : the MC did not worsen his wife's crisis.

[lost88]

Thank you for the warm welcome but I wish we were all meeting on different terms, of course. My wife’s been very candid up to this point telling me she’s not ready for marriage counseling when she knows the issues are with herself, and she needs to figure them out first. She knows the has  issues to deal with and I give her credit for seeing it! I’m glad you’re still in the good fight. I’m trying to understand what God is trying to teach me thru this…

I’m glad your still in the fight

[Reinventing]

Don't expect MC to help her if she's in MLC. MC can be very painful for the LBS since the MLCer can use MC to blame the LBS or otherwise use problems in the marriage (that were not really there) to justify their behavior. The therapist doesn't know what is true or not about the marriage and can unwittingly help justify the MLCer.

What MC can do is cause damage to the LBS because of the things said during the sessions. Then the LBS ends up having to process that and usually remembers it for a long time.

Perhaps she could go to individual counseling instead of MC. IC for both of you could be a pathway forward, with future MC when both of you truly want to work on the marriage (getting to that point can take years if it does happen).

Take care and look at this as a very long process. Use the advice to live as if they are not coming back to help you work on what you can control, which is you.

This is very tough to go through. It hurts. You won't always feel this way. It will get better.

[Treasur]

Thank you for the warm welcome but I wish we were all meeting on different terms, of course. My wife’s been very candid up to this point telling me she’s not ready for marriage counseling when she knows the issues are with herself, and she needs to figure them out first. She knows the has  issues to deal with and I give her credit for seeing it! I’m glad you’re still in the good fight. I’m trying to understand what God is trying to teach me thru this…

I’m glad your still in the fight

All LBS seem to go through their own process of building their own mental picture of what happened/is happening. Like a jigsaw. Which usually requires us to take a pause and consider why we think what we think, whether our old assumptions still hold water and what we do when observable facts challenge our beliefs. I’m not sure any LBS here ends up with exactly the same picture even if parts of the jigsaw are similar.

Imho MLC is a shorthand for a particular kind of significant fracturing that makes someone unrecognisable to us. Again there may be similarities but not all MLC folks are identical and perhaps not every story here is an MLC story…..or perhaps there is just a spectrum.

Building your own jigsaw can be a bit mentally exhausting bc it does tend to involve some questioning of one’s own beliefs. So it takes a bit of time too. From the cheap seats, if one unpicks it, MC would make sense if a) you honestly believe it is primarily a marriage problem as the cause rather than an effect and therefore a marriage solution and b) if both people in the relationship see a purpose to it which matters enough to give it a good honest go.

What do you think is the case in your current situation as it stands? And why do you think that?

[Baxter1]

I’m going to jump on and say MC isn’t all it’s cracked up to be. We just did it and the councilor gave up after two sessions. You both have to be on the same page for MC to work, both have the common goal of reconnecting, my W was so far on the side of D and I was on the other side, there was zero common ground. That being said IC(and hero’s spouse of course) has been very helpful to talk through emotions, have a sounding board to talk about what you’re going through, these are great tools.
It’s easy to say ‘detachment will help you’ but what does that mean? It’s different for everyone but I just try to stay in my own lane, if she leaves for a night,week, whatever I just let it slide off of me. If she monsters and freaks out, just let it go. Again easy to say but harder to practice. I think it just comes with time.

[lost88]

It’s not a marriage issue and sh wants to do IC for herself. I’m at the point where I’m losing hope and may end up accelerating her wishes come spring. I can’t live like this for years …. It’s not gonna be possible. What your saying is accurate - I’m not even sure who she is

[Treasur]

It’s not a marriage issue and sh wants to do IC for herself. I’m at the point where I’m losing hope and may end up accelerating her wishes come spring. I can’t live like this for years …. It’s not gonna be possible. What your saying is accurate - I’m not even sure who she is

What do you mean specifically by ‘accelerating her wishes come spring’?

Most of us remember a time of exhaustion and hopelessness when we felt like you seem to feel now. There’s a temptation I think to do x or y because we just long for the pain and uncertainty to end. Not our place to tell you what to do or not do….what I would encourage you to do though is breathe and take your time to think well and wisely.
What is your goal? And how will choice x or y meet it? And at what cost?

As an example, let’s say your big goal is to ‘not carry on living like this’…..what does that actually mean to you? Let’s say you decide that what it means is the feeling of limbo and uncertainty and you decide that filing for divorce is the way to replace that with more control over your own future life and a plan with some predictable outcomes. (Not saying this is, or should be, how you think….just trying to illustrate by working an example!)

Divorce might give you some of what you feel you need….but a legal process like this might also create some new challenges and extend some of the limbo in other ways. So, what are your other options? What else can you do to reduce that feeling of limbo or increase your feeling of certainty? Perhaps even things that have nothing to do with your marriage or your wife’s behaviour? Or that you can create despite these? And what are the pros and cons of those? Do you see what I mean?

It’s a seemingly shared truth for LBS that this time when we feel most confused and vulnerable, and therefore not at our best, is also a time when we need to deploy our best quality thinking and problem solving skills. And traumatised or anxious brains tend to crave quick solutions and A or B answers bc of the distress we feel in the place that we find ourselves. That’s normal. Sucks though, right?
But you do have options, almost certainly more than you currently think you have.
Take your time to step back and up a bit to consider them.

As a general rule, when we humans fail to problem solve well, it is almost always bc we lose sight of the specific detail of what it is we are actually trying to solve. And the real pecking order of our own priorities. Imho that is often where our most creative options lie and where we make peace with the likely effects of whatever our choice is bc we  know we have looked closely at way more than A or B before committing to a course of action. That we know the problem we are actually trying to solve and why it matters so much to us. Less about the speed and more about the quality perhaps lol…..even very smart, experienced folks can fall into that trap, the illusion of action as we often call it….you've probably seen it before in your own working life or your wider life experience, those times when it becomes obvious that x is a great solution but unfortunately for the wrong real problem!

So, my best advice is to get a big piece of paper, a pen and a cup of your preferred beverage and try to pin down first what your real objective is….and then you can scribble away at some wild and wacky ideas on how to acheive it despite the situation and all of the things beyond your control before you choose the best path forward from here for you. 

[lost88]

Appreciate the feedback - I guess im beginning to give up standing. I wear my emotions on my sleeve and have never been good at faking things. While I love this group it seems most end in D and since my wife is focused on that as the most likely outcome .. why should I fight or have any hope? I’m not filing but but choosing not to fight for us either .. I’ve always been a black and white kinda guy. This isn’t living … and this may help me to move past the daily stress …

[xyzcf]

I’m not filing but but choosing not to fight for us either .. I’ve always been a black and white kinda guy. This isn’t living … and this may help me to move past the daily stress

Perhaps one of the hardest things to accept is that we cannot fight for our marriage...absolutely nothing we can do. Our spouses are 100% committed to their new life.

It doesn't seem possible that we cannot resolve whatever the problems were, that our loved one sees this as the only way out....

As we say very often, this is not about us and it's not about the marriage.

It breaks our hearts. It destroys a great deal of ourselves in the process.

Our beliefs about marriage, our beliefs about the relationship we had is shattered.

To pick up the pieces, to put ourselves back again is what we try to do and it isn't easy, but it will come...there has to be a time for grief, there has to be a time to figure out what we feel is important to us and that includes how we interact with the MLCer.

What was once impossible for us to conceive (never in 32 years did the word "divorce" ever enter into our conversations, it was totally against our faith, totally against what we both believed until he had his crisis).

The stress and what this does to us physically and emotionally is very damaging. I found a therapist that worked with me from a mind/body approach effective. That is, rather than "talk therapy" she helped me feel what my body was experiencing and gave me tools to change how my physiology was affected by the stress.

I am so sorry that you are in this situation. Knowing that others were having the same thoughts/feelings/ the stories, helped me to slowly move along in my own healing..because it all seemed so crazy...but I was not the only person having this happen to her.

[lost88]

Yeah - this really hit home. And part of the reason like - why fight it ? Why delay it ? Just about everyone here has tried and the results aren’t good. Never in my life have I wanted to fast forward but I’d like to rn. I’m going to be damaged good after this - why would ever trust anyone again ? Is it really worth it ? It’s like the death of your spouse but they are still alive … it’s just no longer them.
Tks for sharing

[Nas]

It’s like the death of your spouse but they are still alive … it’s just no longer them.

This to me is the reason many of us sought out a community, whether we call it MLC or not, whether we're hoping our spouse reconnects with us or not.
It's not about ensuring reconciliation or getting a definitive answer to what happened - it's knowing there are others who understand and support our need to process ambiguous loss and disenfranchised grief. (I'd encourage you to google both of those terms as it may help in guiding steps toward your individual healing.)

[xyzcf]

I’m going to be damaged good after this - why would ever trust anyone again ? Is it really worth it?

Yes we are "damaged" but from the many many stories here, we heal. There are scars and wounds that will always be there. They become a part of who we are and we grow new "parts" as we learn to accept and put the past behind us. Each individual in their own way.

I am not the person I was before. I still miss my husband and the life we had...I do not find this life alone "better" even though I have tried every type of "GALing" imaginable  .. Things are better now. I had not been able to feel "joy" for such a long time. I knew what "joy" was but cold not feel it...the therapist I saw helped me find myself as well as the feelings of joy again.

I won't allow myself to "test" whether I could trust again..personally, it would be very very difficult for me to do so but that is not the case for others here.

The reality is, we don't know what will happen.  Some marriages recover, some people have new relationships, some of us remain alone. I have contact with him and some family time which matters greatly to me. Most people don't support that, but it is what I want...as I try to make sure that I do not become bitter and that I accept who he has become.

It's all hard. As you said, they are not dead, they are still alive so it is difficult to have any sense of closure.

[mcm64d]

Please never lose faith in marriage or love of human beings because of this. There is so much life to live and although we (and I do mean we) cannot always see it every minute of every day, we, IMHO, need to believe that one day we will be whole again,, that one day we will have the faith to love again, that one day our spouses may get the help they need and return (or not if that is what you prefer), that one day there is a happier place for all of us.

For today.....get a few positive minutes for yourself and try to expand it as long as possible. Cook, clean, exercise, watch TV, walk, run, do whatever it is that will make it alright.

https://youtu.be/lwo9e8zJl5g?si=d0clerU9ge2fCrYY

[mcm64d]

It's all hard. As you said, they are not dead, they are still alive so it is difficult to have any sense of closure.

Not to minimize the rest of your post, but mine actually asked me what closure is. I know she knows what it is.........It is what it is.

[lost88]

I’ve had a “good” day considering the circumstances. Until this is resolved one way or the other I’m not sure I’m really ever going to have sincere good days. I’m SO early in but I don’t see this playing out years - or Atleast me living in limbo. I’ve always believed “a sharp knife cuts the deepest but hurts the least.”  I just wish this happened in my 20’s!!!

I guess I have a couple of Q’s  from all the mentors and OG’s that have been thru this :

In hindsight - what would you have done differently, or sooner  or later ?

If this were to happen in your next relationship how would you react?

What are your biggest regrets from it all ?

If kids were involved - how did that play out later in life ? Relationships w u and Ex etc ?

While this is most likely the biggest hurdle we will face in our lives since the consequences are irreversible and some factions of life will be altered forever!
TIA - maybe I’m just trying to speed up my learning curve from the wisdom of those that walked before me. I know all situations are different but comparisons still have value.

[forthetrees]

I would have cut ties sooner with hindsight- got bitten in the face by his newly adopted dog and 6 weeks later had first MS episode. Do NOT underestimate the physical toll this takes. Have dated some people and have ended it due to finding out that they were not being above board on various things. It can take 2 years to really see the person so whatever ya do, don´t leap into any financial commitments with another person for a loooooooong time. I paid for the marriage counseling and wish I had spent that on a vacation or massages instead as he just lied repeatedly.

These formerly very kind people break in a major way as in the foundation itself is compromised. Cutting ties sooner does not mean that you´ll necessarily heal any faster. It does mean that the extent of the damage will be less.

[lost88]

Tks for sharing - greatly appreciated

[xyzcf]

I "think" I know why you are asking these questions....you want the pain to stop, faster than slower.

I just went for a long walk to think about your questions....and these are my own personal views (BD being over 14 years ago).

The short answer is no. There is nothing I would change. I made the best decisions that I could at the time, got "advice" as needed from professionals, separated the "business" from my emotions.

Looking back and trying to make any kind of judgement for me of how I handled things would be a waste of time, because I can't change anything.

I still have the same beliefs about the permanency of marriage as I did then.

I made choices and listened to my inner self and what "she" wanted.....I valued my family and that has allowed me to make a place for him in this family which has been good for our daughter and in the long run, with my acceptance that this is how things are, it is comfortable in many ways.

There are some things I found out along the way that I wish I did not know...but not because I ever went searching. Things I would discover accidentally.

I stepped away from him, allowed contact on his terms but did not interfere with his crisis or his life.

Agape and unconditional love for him remain. His crisis is tragic, for him, for me and for our daughter.

We ( he and I ) used to use a phrase about times "no regrets"..and that came to mind..there are no regrets for anything I did or did not do. I am still very clear that if I were the one in crisis, I would very much like to be treated by him the way I have treated him.

[lost88]

Tks for the insight !

I appreciate all perspectives since this is something I never imagined! I’ve heard of others going thru this but no one close to me where i was educated what it’s really like.

My friend, who I confide in can’t understand any of this since he’s not living it

[Baxter1]

I would argue that by not filing you are fighting for your marriage. By disengaging from her and letting her go through her MLC you are not really pushing the D forward. I think a lot of people in MLC don’t want to do the work/be the bad guy and don’t end up filing. Just my 2 cents, my MIL(who is appalled by her daughter’s actions) recently said that my W told her she doesn’t want to file since we will lose the house. Im standing, for the kids,house,Baxter and even my W. Not sure of the timeline, maybe she’ll come back to this planet in a couple of years, maybe she won’t but at this point I’m not going anywhere.

Good luck!

[lost88]

Valid point -
Last night the kids D15, S17 were told. They k ew something was up but my son thought it was a joke. Was hard for me. I mostly let W talk and explain that she’s not happy with anything rn. He just said I don’t understand ? Why ? W - I don’t know.

I feel this will push her further away from me since no more faking it. I’m sure contact will be less. It’s all so sad and hard to make sense of. My heart is heavy for everyone …

[Baxter1]

It does suck but unfortunately you get used to it. You get into a routine, we haven’t had a family dinner in quite some time. Separate vacations, she locks herself on her room when she gets home.
I choose to remember the good 21 years as oposed to looking at the bad time we’re going through, hope that helps

[Treasur]

I’ve had a “good” day considering the circumstances. Until this is resolved one way or the other I’m not sure I’m really ever going to have sincere good days. I’m SO early in but I don’t see this playing out years - or Atleast me living in limbo. I’ve always believed “a sharp knife cuts the deepest but hurts the least.”  I just wish this happened in my 20’s!!!

I guess I have a couple of Q’s  from all the mentors and OG’s that have been thru this :

In hindsight - what would you have done differently, or sooner  or later ?

If this were to happen in your next relationship how would you react?

What are your biggest regrets from it all ?

If kids were involved - how did that play out later in life ? Relationships w u and Ex etc ?

While this is most likely the biggest hurdle we will face in our lives since the consequences are irreversible and some factions of life will be altered forever!
TIA - maybe I’m just trying to speed up my learning curve from the wisdom of those that walked before me. I know all situations are different but comparisons still have value.

I found your questions difficult to answer, and took a little time to think about why. Years on, I think I genuinely believe that I did my best for someone I loved very much AND that whatever I did or did not do made no difference at all to my then h or for our marriage. I find a kind of peace in knowing that, however foolish I was, I tried my best and I don’t regret that I did. Having said that what I do regret came as a consequence - at least partially - from trying so hard to deal with something I could not understand and that created a lot of damage. So much that I subsequently developed PTSD….and I wouldn’t wish that on anyone, it was horrific. So I think the closest big learning point for me is that I would have been better if I could have stepped away earlier from the things I found incomprehensible and painful that were happening around me and prioritised my own wellbeing much much more. It’s a bit of a two-edged sword bc I think that means I would have needed to open my hand and let go of a lot of my attachment to my h and marriage earlier than I did….so I don’t regret trying but I do regret HOW I tried and the personal cost of it, if that makes sense?

Fwiw I’m not sure filing, or getting divorced, is a panacea. I think it does do some things….it allows you to disengage from bits of the rollercoaster and it gives you permission perhaps to reduce contact and to draw a cleaner line between your business and theirs and your life and theirs. But I found that the process of slowly detaching from all the what ifs and whys and WTF gave me more peace and that took me quite a while after the legal stuff….so imho finding your own way to almost push yourself into gradual detachment - and I did have to be very intentional about it - was more useful than a legal divorce. At least emotionally.

I can’t imagine getting a repeat in another relationship tbh. For both good and not so  good reasons perhaps. Bc of ways in which this experience has changed my pov on the world and tbh bc I am now almost allergic to certain kinds of behaviour….so much more sensitised that even if it is something in the news or that I experience second hand, I have a really strong No feeling to it. Physically and mentally. My hard-learned detachment is a thread in me now….i think it makes me less personally invested or engaged emotionally with others but it also makes me more respectful and less quick to judge or fix. And it also makes me feel deep and sincere gratitude for good humans and good stuff.  Perhaps I just value some things more than I used to and step away from others more easily, idk.

And regrets? Well, that’s difficult….i have had times when I think the only way to have avoided this life experience was to have said No to marrying my h. But my Yes was a genuine one, my commitment was solid and I could not have known what I did not know….and if I had said No, I also would have missed out on two decades of experiences that were, for me, mostly extremely happy ones. And of course one can never know the path not taken.

My challenge tbh was less about the questions you ask and more about trying to find some way to make peace with where I had found myself and all the things I had thought I knew that I now no longer felt I knew at all. That was a doozy and it has taken me a few years tbh to get even close. But my experience left a lot of questions and very few answers 

All of which is to say that imho a sense of peace is a worthwhile goal.
And rarely achieved with one mighty bound or a single action.
And a very personal balancing act between what you think you should do, what you want and what you feel you need to survive and rebuild on the other side of this life experience.

I am sorry that you had the experience of watching your wife tell your children last night. Of course your heart is heavy….its a sad thing…..and yes, it probably will change the landscape in some ways. I suspect from what you have described of your w’s behaviour so far you will find yourself needing to develop some new boundaries in this new situation. And of course you are going to be concerned about the best way to support and resoect your kids needs in an age appropriate way whilst doubtless hating that you cannot protect them from the effects of something big that neither you nor they chose or can change.  But living in limbo with secrets and fear of further exploding bombs is not an easy way to live either, is it? Even hard truth can, once the emotional upswell dies down, bring a strange kind of relief. What do you and your kids think is your W’s ‘plan’ for what happens next? (I say ‘plan’ bc I’m not sure MLC folks really do that….i think they replace plan with words and dramatic gestures lol) And do you have a plan of your own?

The good news is that focusing on this sense of peace - rather than your marriage or your spouse - seems to be a win-win regardless of whether your marriage is reconciled or whether you write a new chapter entirely.

What would bring you most peace now, do you think?

[Helpnewc]

Dear Treasur,

I found what you have written so helpful and how I feel.

I am 19 months in with an at home low energy wallower. I do wish she would leave so that I can start healing. I regret not pushing sooner as I cannot see any recovery and I am just so tired.

You have hit the nail on the head about the difficulty in adjusting to how your life will be. I love my wife. I love my family. I am not what she says I am and no human should be treated the way I am. Yet I have gathered my strength, I have kept my integrity and I am ready for what comes next.

Unlike my wife, I can face being apart from my children so that when I am with them I can surround them with love and really be there for them. I am not prepared to not move forward so that I keep time with my kids.


The hard part is my wife has been prepared to repair with others but not with me. Of course, there is nothing I can do but accept that. There is no anger but just sadness.

I have a deep peace. But I look forward to her going. I want to pay the bill and move on.

I do regret hanging on for so long and believing she was in there somewhere. She is not. She is gone.

[lost88]

Two outstanding posts ! Ty both. I applaud those that can stand for such a long time it’s impressive for sure. I’m not sure how this plays out esp w the kids now in the know. I’m doing my best but it’s not easy as we all know. It’s painful to see her and not know who she is - while she says this is part of me now …. Not sure I buy that ! We now have a full house of pain and I’m worried about everyone …..Tks for the replies and info from u both

[lost88]

I have a Q

Kids now know and wife in separate room. Other day I left
For work while she was on morning walk and I didn’t tell her. She was surprised I did that. She has said she would like to be separated and this is as close as it gets for us rn.
Should I tell her I’m leaving ? Where I’m going etc? We have been doing that for the most part.
She’s distant to me at home but not nasty. Conversation is
Usually around kids and schedules etc.

[Treasur]

Imho, no, not unless it is practically necessary eg doors being locked/unlocked, kids having one or the other adult present. Factual, calm practical civility is just fine….she may want more than that, or expect something different from you, but hey ho, limited communication about what you are doing with your life and time is an entirely predictable effect of the separation she wants.

When in doubt, think roommate and parallel parent - if it makes sense to do something in that context, do so. Everything else? Not your obligation. Don’t be petty or an a$$hat, sure, but don’t feel obliged to act like a husband when she has fired you from the job. So it might make sense to say I will be late back after work but will be back by 10pm to ensure kids are picked up, fed and watered….but I can’t see why you would be obliged to share what you were doing with your time after work or say goodbye dearest before leaving for work or need her permission as long as someone is responsible for the kids, just the facts. That is pretty standard for separated parents, whether under the same roof or not, isn’t it? And what she says she wants…

[forthetrees]

Your kids are old enough to be home alone but at the same time are old/young enough to get into trouble being home alone- esp. if they are feeling abandoned by their parents. Kids tend to act out and may do stupid stuff to get attention, even negative attention, just to get proof that they matter. They are in an awkward spot as they are at the age when you are supposed to be distancing in some regards from their parents but now need reassurance that their world has not imploded. All that to say that if the kids would be home alone then I would share timing of arrival and departure. If it´s just your daily off to work that you´ve done for a long time, then no. The odds of her being forthright about her comings and goings and activities with you are about nil so no need to be an open book. This is a consequence of breaking the partnership.

[lost88]

Update - Communication is civil, short, and non confrontational. I believe she’s relieved that the kids now know and has a sense of freedom / acceptance. Holidays coming will be interesting and more difficult for me than her. I’m torn on getting her a small gift since she seems to buy herself whatever she wants. Not much I can do about that with her own CC and income. She seems content in spare room for now and keeping up with her motherly duties. It’s so hard getting used to this new normal where she’s totally numb to it all. Totally focused on her self, appearance, clothes, and skin care. All seems normal from the stories I’ve read. I’m certain there’s more going on but since there’s nothing I can do - I’ve got to focus on what I can control. My son and I are close and my daughter and I are getting closer. They are both concerned about me which is very kind. They are good kids and don’t deserve this - my daughter is almost ok w it since so many of her friends parents are divorced already. This world is jacked up and we are just churning out kids that will follow similar patterns. I’m making progress for sure but it’s hard and almost seems wrong ….

[Treasur]

Not sure why you would buy her a gift in these circumstances? What’s your boundary about that and gift giving generally?  And your kids are old enough to buy their own gifts for her if they wish.

You may choose to confirm that you are not expecting a gift from her and not intending to buy one to keep the decks and mutual expectations clean. If you do I’d buy what I call a ‘stranger dropping by’ gift - a candle, posh chocs, a bottle of something nice….a neutral general kind of gift.  I susoect though that this is one of those lose-lose situations regardless of what you do, so imho only way to not lose is to not play.

[lost88]

I dont have one but see your point. Its just odd to have our favorite holiday and give her something - but your right! She’s told me she bot new pants for herself and that can be my gift
From me to her … I’ll pass on that as well …will help / pay for kids ford to mom. But they may not want to participate … not sure how that would be received
Tks for the input

[Biscuit]

Myself and W were discussing gifts last year at Christmas and I suggested we both give a donation to each others favourite charity for the amount we would have normally spent on a present. The suggestion went down surprisingly well and no one felt awkward about exchanging presents.

Doing the same this year

[lost88]

I told her no gifts 🎁 and she said that will make things awkward for the kids … I said yeah - you dropping the bomb recently and moving into the spare had no effect - right . The sad thing is my daughter seems ok with it all … she’s always had a special bond w mom. My W even said our D will forgive me. Heck - I think she even thinks it’s ok (maybe even cool) since so many of her friends are divorced. It’s odd to be on the outside looking in with my son away and my W & D having a fun evening at home. I’m obviously not included … stuff like this sucks …and I’ve done nothing wrong!
This is such a twisted mess … my S 17 believes it’s over and his mom has lost her mind …
Anyway - just got home from working and meeting a friend early am to accomplish some addtl projects that need done …

[lost88]

Weekend went ok all things considered. She spent a lot of time getting the spare room (her new bedroom) cleaned and organized. She did a nice job and we moved a tv to that room as well. We spent a few hours together Saturday, a little conversation but nothing of substance. We had a showing to do and then returned home and watched 2 hours of football together.  She’s into deep thought, reading and podcasting. No arguments, relationship discussions, or anything all weekend. She made several food / meals and made sure I was aware I could have what I wanted. Sunday was mostly separate with her in her room preparing for Xmas and cooking in between. Not a bad weekend but still tough to be close to Xmas with kids and no connection with her. But I’m still grateful - she’s still kind, we can talk, and the kids are doing ok things considered.

[FrenchHusband]

Appreciate the feedback - I guess im beginning to give up standing. I wear my emotions on my sleeve and have never been good at faking things. While I love this group it seems most end in D and since my wife is focused on that as the most likely outcome .. why should I fight or have any hope? I’m not filing but but choosing not to fight for us either .. I’ve always been a black and white kinda guy. This isn’t living … and this may help me to move past the daily stress …

Hi Lost88,

what you are saying here and there about hope makes me want to answer you something specific.
In French we have 2 different words for hope : "espoir" and "espérance". Those 2 words may be considered as synonyms but some philosophs and theologians consider they are different and opposite.

"espoir", phisophically speaking is an human emotion, a passion that makes us expect that the situation will be better in the future.

"espérance" is a theologal virtue, alongside wit Faith and Love (Caritas/Agape), it is given by God.

From my opinion, you should give up with "hope" /espoir that is actually expectation that your wife will go out quickly from the MLC. JMO, no need to fight for something that is not under your control. That is why the advise to live as if our spouses won't come back is a good one. Giving up with expectation helps you to detach and to heal.

You may still hope / avoir l'espérance that your W may, one day, come out of her MLC. But it is totally beyond your control and independant of your actions.

Weekend went ok all things considered. She spent a lot of time getting the spare room (her new bedroom) cleaned and organized. She did a nice job and we moved a tv to that room as well. We spent a few hours together Saturday, a little conversation but nothing of substance. We had a showing to do and then returned home and watched 2 hours of football together.  She’s into deep thought, reading and podcasting. No arguments, relationship discussions, or anything all weekend. She made several food / meals and made sure I was aware I could have what I wanted. Sunday was mostly separate with her in her room preparing for Xmas and cooking in between. Not a bad weekend but still tough to be close to Xmas with kids and no connection with her. But I’m still grateful - she’s still kind, we can talk, and the kids are doing ok things considered.

this looks fine, great for you that you can be grateful for the little things that are still in your life.

[lost88]

W started counseling this week - I didn’t ask and she didn’t tell how it went but did set another apt.

I’ve been keeping my distance, feeling the energy she gives off and adjusting accordingly. Yesterday W comes home and I say hello and go upstairs (looking for my glasses) but also just creating space. She comments you don’t have to disappear when I walk in the same room. I comment - you wanted space and separation , mostly stay in your room, and never start a conversation. We are living separate lives other than communicating about kids and holidays. I said I’m giving you exactly what you want ….
She went on to say 2 nights ago she was in lr on couch for 2 hours and I never said a word ..  i said and you didn’t either. You were glued to your phone, while I cooked and ate dinner by myself. Your vibe wasn’t inviting so I just carried on with my evening.
It’s interesting how you give them what asked for but then questioned ?

[FrenchHusband]

Hi lost88,
Your story reminds me one joke on Jew mothers (very stereotypical for sure) :
The mother gives to his son 2 neckties.
First day, to please her mother the son wears the red necktie.
Then her mother complains : "Ho that means you don't like the blue one ?"

Second day, to please her mother the son wears the blue necktie.
Then her mother complains : "Ho that means you don't like the red one ?"

Third day, to please her mother the son wears both neckties ?
Then her mother cries : "my son is mad, he does not know how to dress himself !"

Your answers were very good I think. Have a nice Christmas !

[lost88]

Tks and merry Xmas !

It’s just really Because when you’re used to sharing your day with someone that’s what I feel like doing each day. But when it’s not reciprocated, and there’s cold and distance on most days, I’m learning to detach and shut down. I know that’s what’s recommended, but it sure doesn’t feel good when I’m lessening the contact even though sometimes it’s more one-sided

[KayDee]

It's the mixed messages that are so often talked about in relation to this crisis. I feel we all have had them to greater or lesser degrees. It's hard not to take these things at face value, of course, but a good mantra is 'if you are confused, they are still in crisis'. 

[lost88]

I agree .. a new day and new attitude.  She’s working from home today and I went to office for a couple of hours (like I do all Dec of every year) and was not thrilled I came home. She left shortly after and returned while I was washing my car. She didn’t say bye or where she was going - which she hasn’t done ever before. Change of behavior for sure , esp from last night when telling me I don’t have to leave the room when she enters - or I didnt speak w her other night while she hung on couch for 2 hours …
I feel she is pulling away more lately. She’s going out w friends tonight so I’m sure she’ll be happy until she hits the garage door opener returning home ..
Mood swings from east to west ..
Claims she just wants to get thru holidays .. not sure what that means - yikes
Hard to ever be right since I’m always gonna be wrong .. lose lose everytime.

[lost88]

Today seems like an up day thus far & yesterday was as well. I was busy all day and in and out for most of the day. It feels odd (almost dirty) for me to come home after being gone for 5 hours, change clothes and then leave again for several hours more without telling her where I’m going. I just walk out the door …. She has the ability to use life 360 but we have always communicated for the past 22 years …
Guess I’ll get used to it. Today will be interesting .. Xmas with her mom and step father. He’s great she’s a B. & for sure cause of drama when my W was a kid. Hoping this get addressed in counseling .. wife knows there’s outstanding things to work on …

Funny A friend called me yesterday just to say he missed me. He was D a few years back and I told him what I was going thru - and he said that’s exactly what his wife went thru. He didn’t understand it, had never heard of a MLC being like this and it blew his life apart. His wife (now 5 years past it all - has told her D20 that it was the biggest mistake of her life …

Strength to all the LBS today and tomorrow and new year! - whether your standing, moved on or in between. These are the days that we miss them the most …love yourself extra this holiday season and take & give hugs from all willing to do so!

[lost88]

Yesterday we did Xmas at her parents place. Her birth father passed and her step father and I are very close.  Car ride there we chatted and it didn’t go well. She said she no longer has issues w her childhood since she’s thought about herself over the last 2 weeks and has gotten thru it. Yeah - that sounds reasonable. Likely puts a nail in her counseling that she started last week - said she will try a couple more sessions - my guess is that over quickly. She was quick to say she can’t love me the way I deserve and I deserve better. I told her I wasn’t looking forward to the day and neither of us care for her mother ! She’s nasty and negative and I’m betting a major reason why my W is in this mindset.

We arrive and i take dog for a quick walk. FIL was on way and 30 min out. Only MIL was home. After a quick dog walk, I go in and grab a piece of ham from the food. My mother-in-law was preparing. She was not happy about it and gets frustrated when people pull food prior to being served to everyone. She got nasty As she  usually does which I blew off and just went to a different room. At that point knowing my son and father-in-law wouldn’t be there for a little while I decided to go for a walk myself. Surprisingly after a 15 minute walk I get a text from my wife, asking me if she would like some meatballs that she had brought with us for part of the meal. She said she would warm them up and be waiting for me when I returned. That was very kind and something that she has not done in the past several weeks, especially something specifically for me. my father-in-law son eventually arrived, and he and I skied a few runs before coming in to do our gift exchange and eat food. This is where things took a turn, which was very surprising. I sat on a small couch by myself before I usually do, and my wife eventually came and sat next to me.  Not during Thanksgiving. She gave me no attention and sat separately in every opportunity, and we have very little interactive conversations between us. During the gift exchange, we talked, laughed, she gave me chocolates that she was gifted to try and grabbed all of my presence and small gas and package in a box , so we were prepared for our drive home. We interacted she had joy in her eyes, it was definitely a glimmer of my actual wife that I have not seen in the past six or seven weeks. It wasn’t fake it didn’t seem like it was a bunch of effort , it seemed like we turned back the clock a few months and things were normal between us. We got through the day eventually it was time to leave. I asked her if she would drive the 70 minutes home and she agreed. Once we got the car cycled down it was more distant . We talked but not with the same lighthearted enthusiasm. There was no laughing no smiles. It was back to the show of my wife and her personality when it’s just her and I. My daughter was in the backseat with AirPods in so it was just us conversing. It was some small talk, but nothing serious and I didn’t wanna ruin. What was one of the best days I’ve had since this bond drop just changed my life. Once we got home, she sat in the living room while I put a few things away and decided to watch a movie. I went upstairs because I felt like she didn’t want company nor did she invite me in the evening wound down until she went to her bedroom for the night. What’s interesting is my son who came home later that night texted me and said mom was totally different today. Was she faking it , I told him no she wasn’t faking it. She obviously was cycling very high, and it was nice to see her old self for a short amount of time. It was hard for him because he said he couldn’t believe she sat next to me was interacting and was happy to do so.  he was hoping that something clicked on our drive off and things had already returned to normal but obviously that’s not the case. Anyway, we have my family coming over today so there’s lots of work to be done with cooking and cleaning, which we will both do our fair share. We will first do our Christmas gift exchange amongst might be family, which will not include any exchange between my wife and I since I told her I didn’t feel it was appropriate or worth it.

Hoping today goes smoothly as well. It was crazy to see her snap back to herself for a couple hours yesterday - I almost grabbed her hand at 1 point , but i resisted! Life w and MLC sure is unpredictable- Atleast I had a positive surprise yesterday. I have no expectations that it was just blip on a brainwave that was misplaced short term….

Merry Xmas all ! May god bless us all! He’s the reason for the season !

[readytofixmyselffirst]

Hello and Merry Christmas to you as well!

I want to commend you on making it thorough this nightmare and glad that you had a great day. Just be mentally prepared for the return of the killer zombie. I have read your story and contemplating my own story as well as with others to help guide you and provide support as you navigate your journey to recovery. Because in the end, this forum and your story is what we are all about.

Tells me she loves me and I’m a great father and husband and this is her process alone. I can’t help because it’s not about me.

There is a lot of truth in this statement. I don't know what she is feeling. I don't even thinks she knows. I experienced the same thing. However, my ex also had OM in the picture. He wasn't the cause of her crisis, but he was a prominent symptom. MLC is all about escape and avoidance and OM gave her the escape she wanted.

She’s confused, depressed, and just unhappy with her life - all aspects.

Sam in my situation. She was very confused and yet positive on other aspects. Just like your ex, she moved out into her own room- we were living like roommates and all aspects of our marriage crumbled. Other issues outside also had a major impact on our situation. In the end, she filed for divorce and left. The important part was that I survived and moved forward. I think you will do the same as well. So, I want to ponder with you something that I have thought about during and after my ex's crisis. Was I too nice to my ex during her crisis. In my situation, the nicer I was towards her, the worse she got.

In your situation, you have already survived her infidelity. She should actually be grateful that you stayed with her as I know many couples that infidelity is an automatic end of the marriage. Yet, you not only continued, but built a very strong marriage until this roadblock.  How many times can you take hits from her?

Appreciate the feedback - I guess im beginning to give up standing. I wear my emotions on my sleeve and have never been good at faking things. While I love this group it seems most end in D and since my wife is focused on that as the most likely outcome .. why should I fight or have any hope? I’m not filing but but choosing not to fight for us either ..

I followed the same path and was in limbo for almost three years. It's a long time living as a shadow person. I wouldn't wish that on anyone. That's why I suggest you focus on your and your children's mental health and live as if she is not coming back. While this is difficult, I think you should go dark on her and  do your thing without her. You can't spend your life as living in a marriage and acting as if you are married to her and she lives a single life. She can go out and have fun, picks and chooses her activities and interactions with you. Yet, you stay at home and run the household. It's not a fair situation for you and how long can you maintain living like this?

I go in and grab a piece of ham from the food. My mother-in-law was preparing. She was not happy about it and gets frustrated when people pull food prior to being served to everyone. She got nasty As she  usually does which I blew off and just went to a different room.

So you do know how to poke the bear LOL You may need to do that with your wife time to time to let her know you are not the pushover.

Have a great Christmas and enjoy all the time you have with your family!

(((Ready)))

[lost88]

Thanks For the suggestions ready !  How do go dark on someone I live with and have to co-parent ? I don’t think I can 2+ years like this although it would be nice for my D to graduate HS before our life blows up.
I am most likely too nice … until I’m not and then I’m vengeful tons fault. Today was a tough day for me for sure … she basically ignored me all day, but was pleasant fun in her normal self with my entire family. She hugged and greeted everybody and held conversations with laughter and joy. Not once speaking about me to me, or even looking at me. To watch this play out for several hours was very difficult and I felt like telling everybody exactly what was going on. I also caught her several times going up to her room to consume alcohol. she did do a great job, preparing the food and hosting, but wearing the mask is something that she is much better at doing than I am. Once everybody left, she moved back down to low energy eventually retreated to her bedroom.
This is the craziest thing I’ve ever been thru … honestly, it feels like it’s gonna blow up any day and half the time I feel like just accelerating it

[lost88]

Here’s my question - 

How do you know what stage they are in ?

And if my wife seemed to be in a quarter life crisis 11 years ago does this cycle just start over ? I hadn’t looked any of this up at that time but the symptoms seem so similar - but she seemed to be able to suppress her feelings at that time. The “voice” is too strong now and I think chaos is coming soon ..

What’s scary are the dark eyes .. I remember them from years ago .. could never forget them and it pains me they are back.

[Nas]

Stage watching is a recipe for anxiety. If you really believe that your wife had a quarter life crisis then how much of your own precious life do you want to spend watching your wife be “in crisis“? How much of it back then and now is crisis and how much of it is part of who she is? I don’t ask that to cause you pain, I ask because it’s really important to ask these questions.

Whatever she is doing now is the reality and placing a label of a stage on it will not change that, unfortunately. There’s nothing you can do to change it. LBS spend a lot of time watching and wishing for signs of liminality. But even those who have reconciled will tell you that shifts along the way were imperceptible.

I don’t say this out of bitterness, time is precious. I was diagnosed with metastatic cancer not long after bomb drop and I would give anything to have that time back that I spent wondering what was going on in his head.

[lost88]

That’s kinda why I’m asking … I’m not doing this for years… not gonna work !

[Nas]

That’s kinda why I’m asking … I’m not doing this for years… not gonna work !

Everyone has to make their own call on that. And you may find that you change your mind several times, many LBS do.

[xyzcf]

Here are the stages as per RCR's articles

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/mlc_overview_stages.html

[lost88]

As we know changes the only constant in life. Thank you for providing them. I have read them several times but it’s still not necessarily clear to me which stage she’s in. Especially since it seems like she’s done some of this before. I know this is a long, hard road. I’m just not sure if I’m gonna be up for it, and trying to decide what’s best for me and my children. She’s actually been great with the kids. Overall, of course it’s me that gets all the direct ice, cold and shark eyes.

[readytofixmyselffirst]

Hello,

First, an answer to your question.

How do go dark on someone I live with and have to co-parent ? I don’t think I can 2+ years like this although it would be nice for my D to graduate HS before our life blows up.
I am most likely too nice …

Yes, you are too nice and you don't live with your wife- you exist with your wife. I don't have much expertise in anything, but in education, if you see a group of three-four year old children playing in a sandbox, they are not playing together, but they are parallel playing. When one tries to get into the space of another, fireworks will erupt. You are in a parallel existence with your wife. If she is a roommate, then treat her like a roommate. You don't have to discuss anything with her. If she asks something about the kids, respond with short concise points and move on. Don't extrapolate what you are doing and don't care what she is doing either. Make your own plans and leave her with the kids. And no, "Let's be friends" isn't going to cut it. That's going dark as much as possible. She has already gone dark on you. Not your job to overcompensate for her lack of participation.

How do you know what stage they are in ?

Watching stages and defining stages is very difficult. One, you really don't know what she is thinking and the characteristics of the stages are found in all of them. For example, depression is a stage, but depression is evident throughout the entire crisis. Nor is the process a linear process. Some start to emerge and go right back to replay. It's very confusing and truly in the end; it's her life and her choices.

I know this is a long, hard road. I’m just not sure if I’m gonna be up for it, and trying to decide what’s best for me and my children.

You have already persevered through one long journey and that was her affair eleven years ago. You posted that it was repaired. What if she never fully repaired and that now faces the same issues that led to the affair eleven years ago just erupted again. You may be correct that she now sees the children as grown and her role as a mother much diminished. I am not a professional in any extent, but there seems to be some form of depression in your wife's life that has been ongoing for many years.

Which brings me to the dynamic of the mother/daughter relationship. You wrote that her mother is a nasty person. What is the relationship between your wife and her mother? This is interesting because your wife describes her relationship with her own daughter as being very close and that they are inseparable.
Just know that their are a lot of complexities in the relationships and this all plays into your wife's current mindset and beliefs. It  seems that her own doubts about her identity and self have been ongoing for many years and this latest outburst is of many outbursts that have occurred throughout her life. This one is just the biggest in terms of your marriage.

You describe that you are close with the stepfather and yet you see her mother as a mean spirited person. Could part of your bond be that each of you love a difficult person?

I don't think your questioning of being "up for it" deals with just this crisis, but instead a weariness of dealing with another (yet again) crisis and how it impacts your own psyche.

The bottom line becomes what does Lost want? What does Lost need? I am asking these questions because I think you need to focus on your own mental health and how all of this impacts you. 

Have an awesome day,

(((Ready)))

[lost88]

Yeah - her mom is difficult and her parents divorced.
Her step dad is a wonderful person, but wasn’t around much when my wife still lived at home. She and her brother have major issue with their mom. She’s just not a nice person and is nasty and fights with everyone. She’s very narcissistic and my wife moved out when she was 17. I don’t believe they had seen each other in quite some time, not even on the holidays until we started dating and getting serious. She then brought me around them, because it was obvious that we would end up being a family someday. Everyone argues with her mom at some point if they’re around her long enough because she’s just not a nice person.  And my father-in-law most likely won’t divorce her because of financial terms. He lives an extremely active life going to parties social clubs events. He’s active in the church the rotary club. It’s sad because he does everything by himself because she no longer will socialize, but he seems OK with it.  They function at least for them but they do spend a lot of time apart which I don’t think neither one of them mind. They also haven’t slept in the same bed for decades, so they are cohabitating if you will. We had a bit of an eruption today and she told me she’s no longer attracted to me and wants to get to summer before she moves out. she says she doesn’t like to be home because I’m here and doesn’t want to have any interactions other than speaking about the children. Once again, she says I’ve been a wonderful husband and a great father but she’s put me in the friend zone a long time ago and that’s where I’m going to be. She has told me that I deserve to find someone that loves me the way I love her and she wants to find her own happiness as well. I’m not sure exactly what I need but I’m amazed at the people that live in limbo for years and wait for someone to return when the odds seem on realistically low that it’ll ever work out. Well, today’s conversation was difficult. I did gain some clarity, and if she decides to make her decision and move forward, then I have no decision left in my opinion. I actually once processing it all, felt a little better about it even though my daughter will side with her because they’re bond is so close and my son leaves for college next year. It’s amazing that three months ago I felt everything was wonderful less than a year from now I’ll be likely living by myself again. I truly love my wife and would hope things could work out and maybe I’m believing too much of what she’s telling me as truth and not part of her midlife crisis but it sure does come across as being sincere. Today while we had this discussion was the first time that we had a talk, where I did not see the shark eyes And a completely blank face. That’s concerning to me since it shows she wasn’t necessarily in her mode.

I’ve told a friend of mine who has kept up on this with me as a support system that I feel like I’m gonna runaway train like you see in the cartoons and I’m hanging by one arm in the last train or the caboose as we go around turns that I don’t know we’re coming
I guess we’ll see how this plays out but at this point I have very little hope and maybe that’s for the best
Tks for the response !

[lost88]

Is it normal for a Mid-life Crisis wife to tell her husband that she’s no longer attracted to him? I have to admit we don’t have sex very often. In fact it’s been sometime. After we had our second child who is now 15 it definitely wasn’t near as often as when we were dating and trying to get pregnant. I figured it was postpartum but it never got back to normal levels. She told me she’d work on it and look into therapy or potential drugs but that never happened. I told her I loved her and if she wasn’t feeling sexual, then that’s something that I would have to deal with. I get the impression with this midlife crisis. Her sex drive is actually increased, but hearing that from your spouse was hard to accept. I’m five 1085 pounds work out daily run lift weights  dress nice and I’ve never been told that my entire life. I was talking to a friend today and I think one of the most frustrating things about this whole ordeal is how this is not yet recognized by professional bodies as a thing. Depressions involved amongst anxiety and a bunch of other issues but when you run into groups like this, and how strange and irrational, their behavior becomes like someone just switched a flip. This is something that should be changed and should be a diagnosis and all these therapists and psychologist should be prepared to treat individuals so they can actually help the left behind spouse and the individual who obviously is having a crisis of Gargantuas proportions, and breaking up families. If most therapist and psychologist, don’t understand what it is and don’t recognize it they’re truly is very little way of getting any type of help at all.

Rant over !

[Dragonfly33]

Hi Lost, I’ve been trying to catch up with your story here and the other newbies. Just wanted to tell you that when I was new this back in 2019 I was so obsessed about these stages. I was stage watching and was trying to figure out which stage my exh was. I can tell you now in hindsight it’s totally a waste of time and energy to analyze which stage they are. Save that energy for tour own healing. Everything they do won’t make sense to us normal people. You’d be just scratching your head. Best advice I got here was to focus on myself and on the things I need for my own mental health. And That was getting an IC.
Ready is so right about everything he said. I still read the advice of the veterans here because even now that I’m not new to this anymore it still helps me and gives me a different perspective.

One thing I also notice with these MLCers is that they all want to be friends with the LBS. I remember my exh told me when worse comes to worst that we eventually separate he still wants to be friends with me. What the heck are they thinking after annihilating the marriage they can still be best friends with their spouse. I remember I told my exh back then, if we ended up getting divorce , I would never be his friend.

[Nas]

Is it normal for a Mid-life Crisis wife to tell her husband that she’s no longer attracted to him? I have to admit we don’t have sex very often. In fact it’s been sometime. After we had our second child who is now 15 it definitely wasn’t near as often as when we were dating and trying to get pregnant. I figured it was postpartum but it never got back to normal levels. She told me she’d work on it and look into therapy or potential drugs but that never happened. I told her I loved her and if she wasn’t feeling sexual, then that’s something that I would have to deal with. I get the impression with this midlife crisis. Her sex drive is actually increased, but hearing that from your spouse was hard to accept. I’m five 1085 pounds work out daily run lift weights  dress nice and I’ve never been told that my entire life. I was talking to a friend today and I think one of the most frustrating things about this whole ordeal is how this is not yet recognized by professional bodies as a thing. Depressions involved amongst anxiety and a bunch of other issues but when you run into groups like this, and how strange and irrational, their behavior becomes like someone just switched a flip. This is something that should be changed and should be a diagnosis and all these therapists and psychologist should be prepared to treat individuals so they can actually help the left behind spouse and the individual who obviously is having a crisis of Gargantuas proportions, and breaking up families. If most therapist and psychologist, don’t understand what it is and don’t recognize it they’re truly is very little way of getting any type of help at all.

Rant over !

It’s normal in the sense that someone who is trying to push you away is going to say whatever they can to get you to let go of them. I think we all heard a version of this, it does not matter what you look like, what shape you’re in, if you had sex twice a day or only on Mondays that had the number 5 in them. It’s rejection, it definitely hurts the self-esteem. I know it’s hard but try not to dwell on it. In the end it means as little as anything else.

I wanted to briefly touch on the idea of there not being a diagnosis. It’s normal at first to wish that this was a diagnosable condition, that some doctor could sit your spouse down and tell them “this is what is wrong with you and you need to go home and get well.” But “this” isn’t just one thing. I would be careful not to get caught up in the idea that MLC is one linear process with a specific set of behaviors and actions. There are incredible similarities that happen around bomb drop, but after that every person will be different because of different life histories and experiences, different levels of depression or anxiety etc., different needs, different thoughts and values and wants and desires and on and on and on. And even if someone could diagnose your wife with a condition called MLC, they couldn’t force her to take any actions towards healing. Even in a diagnosable mental health condition like bipolar, the suffer still has free will to decide to take their medication or go to therapy.

[KayDee]

What you wrote about your in-laws - pretty much a carbon copy of my in-laws.  Said parent, in this case the mother, never really properly matured, so they are still looking to get their needs met in immature ways. So the children are always alert to please mother, often preoccupied with this at the expense of their own needs. Hard to develop a strong sense of self in such an environment and could lead to an identity crisis later on. As my therapist put it 'it's very hard growing up with a narcissist parent' (this could be an understatement). This realisation, and related emotional neglect, is perhaps, what your wife is confronting now and it's sad that you are collateral damage in her search for herself. IMO, there's not much you can do but let her find her own answers. Be yourself, because that is who she has loved for a couple of decades, and I doubt that you have changed dramatically. Keep being a stable force and a great dad for both your kids, that's all you can do.

[Biscuit]

Same here with my in laws. Totally emotionally immature and my W has been more of a parent to her mother than vice versa.

[lost88]

Thank you for the replies I truly appreciate them. it’s just so weird that she actually went to her parents cottage where my son is as well. She knew by going there today that she would still have to see her mom for a few hours, but she would rather see her a few hours and have to be at home with me. What’s odd is the other day she told me she doesn’t like to tell me where she’s going. It would rather just come and go as she pleases. I said that’s fine and I would say most often she still tells me where she’s going. Today when she left, she told me she see me tomorrow, and for some reason texted me when she got there to let me know that she arrived safely. It seems like a lot of the behavior is conducted out of old habits or the angel on the one shoulder sometime gets through. I’m seeing less and less of her the last couple of week which is painful but at the same time if she decides to be aggressive and transition out of the home com may or June of this year I’m not going to fight her. I’m amazed at everyone’s strength and appreciate all of your insight! It’s interesting since this has happened. I’ve talked to two other people that I’ve gone through this, but didn’t know exactly what it was. I wish they would’ve found this resource as well to have helped them but instead they left with more questions, and no answers.

[lost88]

A few Q’s for the group …

Why do they lie so much ? About everything, all the time, stuff thats not important? And the scheming that doesn’t even make sense?

 Seems bi polar behavior .. and do meds make our position of an LBS even worse ?

Is the memory loss real or more lies ?

Seek and avoid : what brings this on so quickly and does it level off? This is a problem in my home that’s creating an environment thats hard on the kids.

What behavior change is after week and avoid ?

What triggers what I call shark 👀 eyes? The state where your spouse is emotionless, monotone, and almost possessed ?

The changes in cycling ? I’ve seen a cycle change from low to high in a short amount of time ..I use low medium high for moods of sad/ depressed to neutral, to almost themselves.

As I begin to detach I see things from a slightly different perspective - almost looking in from the outside even tho I’m in the middle of this hurricane called my life …

It’s been amazing the accuracy of predictions from the OG’s of what’s going to happen next. It’s almost like there’s a script they have and follow and we learn our script from this here that have walked before us …

[Helpnewc]

I am not sure about the lies. It is just weird and strange. I suspect it relates to the need for secrecy and to escape your old life which involved trust and togetherness. But the fibs are there.

The memory loss is real and I don’t think convenience. I also think that as the LBS is under stress we can have it too.

It is just a mass of emotions and chaos. Asking why does not get you anywhere.

My wife slept with her door locked for 19 months. She is now sleeping with it open. I guess she feels safe but I don’t think it means much.


She is calmer but still harbours enormous unacknowledged anger towards me. Who knows what will happen. I just gently point out that those who spend time with me including my daughters see I have done the work I needed to do.

It is such a journey. At the beginning she was a saint and it was all my fault, now I know that was crap. I was not a perfect husband but there was nothing that could not have been sorted without a tornado.

But there is not point trying to understand the tornado or talking to it. You just protect your family and yourself and batten down the hatches.

[Baxter1]

I’m with Help on the tornado analogy, you can’t talk to a tornado but you can protect yourself from it. As for the forgetting stuff, I find that as well, their mind is so messed up they don’t have enough  to remember little things.
As for the meds I don’t think they help much, my W takes meds and drinks, anything to help ease the pain thru are going through.
Escape and avoid lasts 18+ months. Mine escapes any chance she can. I think they feel that we  are the cause of their internal struggle so getting away from us will get rid of the pain (spoiler alert it doesn’t, it usually makes things worse).

[mcm64d]

I think what may help understand the memory loss is that imo they are in a panic, at least on the inside. I know when I rush through something at work or even if my mind races, I find I write things down or say things that later I cannot remember what I meant or even that I wrote or said it.

[readytofixmyselffirst]

Hello,

Is it normal for a Mid-life Crisis wife to tell her husband that she’s no longer attracted to him?

First of all, Pete Davidson dates models, singers, and actresses and he is all personality- not exactly in the top ten of the hunkiest men alive. So please dis regard your wife's statements. She is throwing you off and shifting the blame to you. Remember, she knows all your weak points and how to push the right points to keep you off balance.

It’s rejection, it definitely hurts the self-esteem. I know it’s hard but try not to dwell on it. In the end it means as little as anything else.

Read this several times. Great point.

I have to admit we don’t have sex very often. In fact it’s been sometime. After we had our second child who is now 15 it definitely wasn’t near as often as when we were dating and trying to get pregnant. I figured it was postpartum but it never got back to normal levels. She told me she’d work on it and look into therapy or potential drugs but that never happened. I told her I loved her and if she wasn’t feeling sexual, then that’s something that I would have to deal with. I get the impression with this midlife crisis. Her sex drive is actually increased, but hearing that from your spouse was hard to accept.

Man, my life and yours in a nutshell. My ex definitely had hang ups abut sex and it goes back way before she and I met. After our second child was born, it became less and less until after the bomb drop- non existent. Just like you, I felt it was something I had to deal with as I took my vows seriously and I was committed to her and the children.

What’s odd is the other day she told me she doesn’t like to tell me where she’s going. It would rather just come and go as she pleases.

Same here. Just wanted to live her life in secrecy and do as she pleased as well. However, I was doing all the cooking at that time and I wanted to know so that dinner would be ready when she and the kids came home. It's not controlling to ask someone where they are going especially if they live in your house. In my new home, we all tell each other where we are going. "I'm going to Target, do you need anything?"  That's how people who care for each other interact. She doesn't have any empathy towards you and honestly, if she is anything like my ex; it borders on contempt.

Once again, she says I’ve been a wonderful husband and a great father but she’s put me in the friend zone a long time ago and that’s where I’m going to be.

First of all, you are not friends because friendship requires trust and you can't trust her. I wouldn't want her for a friend either. I am not friends with my ex either because I don't trust her. I an not friends with my new wife's ex. In the couple of times I met him, I was respectful, but I wasn't endearing either. I just don't buy into the "Well, I cheated on him, put him through three years of hell, broke up our family, took nine years of his retirement, and almost bankrupted him. But it's all okay because in the end, we're great friends."

I put the "We all ended up being friends" in the same vein as "They lived happily ever after" Yeah, right, all good for fairy tales, but not for reality.

I’m seeing less and less of her the last couple of week which is painful but at the same time if she decides to be aggressive and transition out of the home com may or June of this year I’m not going to fight her.

Don't fight her on it because none of this has anything to do with you. She is already living the single life, you just won't accept the memo. This is her crisis and if she thinks living on her own will bring her the happiness she seeks, let her have it.  I used to build a lot of hope on the fact that my ex had not left home. But after she left, I realized it made no difference. She had been gone for years and I suffered more when she was around then when she was gone.

Continue to live and focus on you and the kids. In the end, it will help you heal and relieve a lot of the stress you are feeling.

(((Ready)))

[lost88]

Ready - I love you brother !!!

I’m a black and white kinda guy and now that I’ve gathered my sea legs about 10 weeks after BD my perspective has changed. I need to control the narrative a bit - the last thing I want are
My kids to ever be treated this way .. someone has to set an adult example ..

READY FOR PREZ !!!!!’ 😂

[lost88]

Great weekend - went skiing w my son and FIL all weekend. We go most every weekend and finally had the snow to do so! Didn’t hear from W and spoke with her very briefly this evening. Haven’t seen her since Thursday. She’s staying in her room and out of site more often. She did move all her remaining items from the master bedroom and bathroom while I was gone.  Was already in her room when I got him at 5:30.
I’m sure enjoyed not having to avoid me all weekend …
 I read a ton o hearts blessing this weekend … all great information especially the articles she has written over the years - there are just Soooo many. Also been opening the good book as well .. I enjoyed my weekend and was able to relax, ski, read, and dig out my son’s car - had 10+ inches Sat thru Sunday. Who knows what happens next but I’m off the crazy train 🚂 . Last week I told her I’m done worrying, fixing, asking, and caring .. her journey by herself ..I’m off the train ..set a couple of boundaries and told her I love her but hate how she’s acting. That was on Monday - spoke briefly on Thursday and maybe 10 words today .. she looks exhausted 😩…

Hope all the LBS had a good weekend and gained strength, confidence, and inner strength.

[amazinglove]

Thanks! Good update. You too!

[amazinglove]

One more thing- I’ve seen the memory loss! Forgot two passwords in a week. Crazy memory loss and my H speaks English really well - he’s from another country - and he’s like forgetting words! His English has regressed along with his mental state. It really is a mental health crisis but unfortunately there are real consequences for these evil and selfish choices for both kids our immediate family and ourselves.

[lost88]

Don’t think I’ve asked this before :

Is it common for MLC’s to turn to Tarot card readings ? Oracle cards ? Wants the spiritual route into gems and stones …

Seems looking for answers anywhere … but not the good book …

Just curious …

[WHY]

Don’t think I’ve asked this before :

Is it common for MLC’s to turn to Tarot card readings ? Oracle cards ? Wants the spiritual route into gems and stones …

Seems looking for answers anywhere … but not the good book …

Just curious …

Mine became heavily invested in astrology when she never showed ANY interest in it before. 

[Reinventing]

They do ANYTHING new as they test out their new fantasy life to be different from the life before.

[lost88]

I see it as more of a search for answers - kinda like grasping at straws. It still amazes me the destruction that can and is usually caused. All the podcasts and many articles make it as a positive event and a way to really live out your back 9.  I think that messaging doesn't help those in MLC and encourages them to be more aggressive & that everything will be great …..

I have now found 3 friends that have had their wife’s thru MLC. Their outcomes were not promised, 2 divorced and 1 drank herself to death and monstering daily …and unfortunately none of them had this resource or really knew what or why this all happened …

I’m grateful for you all and HS …..

[readytofixmyselffirst]

Hello,

My ex also was deep into tarot cards. I agree with you that they are trying to find answers and a path forward. I still can't comprehend how someone can conclude that randomly placed pieces of paper with pictures on them can predict your future and then using that information to make life altering decisions.

Have a great day,

((((Ready))))

[lost88]

I so agree Ready!!

I’m  away again for wknd skiing and I don’t hear from her as usual. She only texts (if im not home) about dog or kids. She Will occasionally ask what I want from store when going and we talk a little at home a couple times during week about topics other than kids and $.

Now when  I call - she always answers. If I text - always responds quickly. If I need something  (sign on info Roku for ex) she gives it to me. It’s seems it’s easier for her to communicate w/o seeing me but it’s rarely initiated by her. She spends alot of time on phone (can only imagine what she’s doing) doing things I’m sure I don’t wanna know about …

Do they sometimes fall back into old habits of kinda “being your partner” at times ? Last week I was given “I dont  wanna be your friend” line …

I know it doesn’t make sense …. Ever … but just addtl odd behavior.

[lost88]

This is a wonderful podcast to listen to … esp the whole love but not in love line..

It doesn’t change anything with our MLC spouses but made a TON of sense. They could benefit from it if they could hear the words …

Enjoy !!


https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/you-love-you-learn-podcast/id1654761308?i=1000611365979

[thissucks7788]

Lost88- I know you asked about Tarot cards.... there is a woman on YouTube (Following Frenna) and she has talked about people in limerence how they often use tarot cards to give them hope about their LO.  Just wanted to put that out there.
B

[WHY]

Lost88- I know you asked about Tarot cards.... there is a woman on YouTube (Following Frenna) and she has talked about people in limerence how they often use tarot cards to give them hope about their LO.  Just wanted to put that out there.
B

Holy $ht.  This makes soooooo much sense now.  That astrology thing was about her LO all along.  I get it now.

[FrenchHusband]

I so agree Ready!!

I’m  away again for wknd skiing and I don’t hear from her as usual. She only texts (if im not home) about dog or kids. She Will occasionally ask what I want from store when going and we talk a little at home a couple times during week about topics other than kids and $.

Now when  I call - she always answers. If I text - always responds quickly. If I need something  (sign on info Roku for ex) she gives it to me. It’s seems it’s easier for her to communicate w/o seeing me but it’s rarely initiated by her. She spends alot of time on phone (can only imagine what she’s doing) doing things I’m sure I don’t wanna know about …

Do they sometimes fall back into old habits of kinda “being your partner” at times ? Last week I was given “I dont  wanna be your friend” line …

I know it doesn’t make sense …. Ever … but just addtl odd behavior.

Yes I have seen the same pattern : when we are far away (me in holidays with children or W somewhere else), W is better at comunicating and she is again able to say or write "hello", "good night", "bye", what is more difficult (almost impossible) when she is at home.

W is not doing tarot cards, but she is always asking questions to a fortune teller in her country : I call her the witch, she is actually kind of another OP bis in my eyes.

[lost88]

Had an absolutely crazy weekend that did not involve my wife, but her family. Specifically, her mother and brother who both have their own major issues. This had a major effect on my son because it happened while I was outside, and I only caught the tail end of it. Anyway, I chose not to call my wife and tell her about it since we were coming home the following day, and there was nothing she could do. As soon as we got home, my son shared it with her and she was a little perturbed that I had not called and got her up to speed. I told her he was safe. My managed it. Our son did a great job and whether you found out yesterday or today it made no difference. We then discussed the lack of communication which took on a life of itself. My wife told me she cares about me but doesn’t want to do things with me. She wants to have communications and be friends  But doesn’t wanna do social things and be completely separate. I told her that’s very difficult to understand when you live with someone and want to be friends but don’t wanna do anything with them. There have been time she’s texted me to get to work safely and I didn’t respond.  And I told her I just don’t understand anything that you’re doing while you’re doing it and when I ask you, you say you don’t know. Ultimately I can see where this is headed since she has wanted to separate and get a divorce from day one. She continues to tell me I’ve done nothing wrong and she cares about me but she just doesn’t wanna be married any longer. I told her eventually she’s going to get what she wants because I’m not going to stand. I told her I felt like she was making a rational decisions and was probably going to regret this. She said she understood that and she very well may. She was a little softer though, and wasn’t as hard on the phone saying that she wants to communicate, she has no ill wishes towards me, doesn’t hate me, and knows this is what she is doing to try to make herself happy. I told her that several weeks ago when we were away for two days straight I had the darkest day of my life in and while it was needed, it was my rock-bottom. I told her I’d begun healing and accepted. I told her she’s not the same person that I’ve known for 20+ years. That the amount of lies and false narratives have taken their toll on me and I no longer believe anything she tells me. I told her that I’ll always care about her, but I still remember the person that she was not the person that she is.  surprisingly she sat and listened and had very little to say. I said My future is not with her and then I’m going to make the best decisions for me and the kids while she does whatever it feels she needs to do. It’s painful. My heart breaks for everyone going through this, but at the same time sometimes in life, you can’t be the only one fighting. We shall see her next steps but I’ve been clear where I’m at mentally and have no expectations. She of course, said that she plans on us being friends forever since we have to coparent and we’ve had so many wonderful years together. I told her I can’t promise her anything about the future, in fact for her to believe that we’re going to check in and stay close When she’s pushing to dissolve the marriage with the only reason she no longer “ in love”with me is something I can’t accept. I just said life is about choices and choices have consequences. We make them each and every day summer thought out more than others and some will play out to be positive or negative. And time will only tell how this one will.

I’ll admit MLC is stronger and colder than I ever expected and while my W doesn’t  monster the pain is all the same or even worse. Or atleast it used to be .. There are many hard days ahead before I start anew but walking on egg shells eggshells and just letting things play out are scenarios I will no longer tolerate. Everyone’s journey is different and we chose our path accordingly … we shall see how this moves forward but it seems obvious to me

A sharp knife cuts the deepest but hurts the least …..

[FaithWalker]

You are absolutely right lost.  Choices do have consequences and no one can control how those play out. 

The walking on eggshells was the most tiring, hardest part of this journey for me.  Once I got out of there and could breathe again I was able to focus more on my healing, rather than ripping the band-aid off on the daily.  But he wanted a quick divorce, so it made sense for me to get out of there.

Major, major kudos to those who live with the MLCer long term.  Tough stuff.

[lost88]

Opinions wanted on negative forces …
As we all try to navigate our spouses minds of jello … I have come to a rather alarming conclusion …
I believe MLC is being driven by a negative energy force.. satan, Lucifer, demonic , etc …
What continues to blow my mind is the consistent behavior of those in MLC … but even more unnerving are the words and phrases they all use. We all reference the “script” but that has to be programmed somewhere .. they all didn’t read the same book … I’ll add my dog has been acting strange the past few weeks … scared of areas and cowering And staring at walls … either he needs Prozac or he see / senses something. He’s a 65lb boxer pit and doesn’t fear anything ….
There’s more to them all saying the same common phrases … has to be !!
My wife shared she napped last week on the couch and awakened to her normal self .. I was her hubby, this was her home, her kids were at school and she was happy with her life / surroundings … but shortly thereafter - those feelings dissipated and the anxiety and desire to get out came back w a vengeance. Told me she loves me but just can be around me …She will be moving out within the next month or 2 …..

[readytofixmyselffirst]

Hello,

I also agree that negative forces impact the MLCer. In fact, most develop a fixed mindset that their actions are the only way to save themselves. They only think of themselves and in almost a sense of despair they act out in the craziest ways.

You just need to focus on your care and your children. Now you know that you will be fine no matter what the outcome. That's a positive growth mindset that will open you up to accept any outcome knowing you will be just fine.

Have a great day,

(((Ready)))

[lost88]

Haven’t posted in a bit but here’s my update. I’m doing well overall and have detached accordingly. My W has signed a lease and moving out starting tomorrow. Kids are aware now and upset but doing ok. She has lied to them about things and they know it. She finally told her mom who is very disappointed but not surprised. My MIL (whom I don’t care for) wants us to to still do holidays together but that’s not gonna work for me. She told her mom she needs to “find herself”.We may not D right after she leaves but it’s for sure in our future. My D, who’s very close to my W, doesn’t think I should give her any $ per month or from assets since she wants out … luv her but that’s not the law. Financially this will be a massive hit .. a payday for her but a real kick in the balls for me ..
I’ve had enough of the lies and deception. She’s not even very good at !   I’m not at all surprised it’s coming to this since my wife is a very confident person. I almost feel like I’ve been used but … my kids know this is all her, and I’ve been a good husband and father .. that’s all that really matters to me …. It’s hard to stomach that things were fine 5 months ago and now she’s packing like a bunny … oh well F’ it.

[Nas]

You may find things feel a little more calm once she leaves. I remember the months of living with my ex before he left, it was toxic.

If you don’t mind, I’m not sure I understand- can I ask what you meant by this:

I’m not at all surprised it’s coming to this since my wife is a very confident person.

[lost88]

She’s a very confident person. When she makes her mind up she rarely changes her position and always see things thru. Always been very Self assertive and doesn’t mince words or actions. While she knows she’s going thru something she is
Not going to back or slow down. It’s just who she is … I’ve called her the hammer .. problem is I’m now the nail 😂
I can’t wait until I’m on the other side of this ..

[Treasur]

I agree with Nas that you are probably going to find that your life feels a bit lighter when she is living elsewhere. I think we often don’t realise how draining and exhausting it is to live with these folks, like an unexploded bomb in the room lol, until we stop. You will doubtless have a whole bunch of emotions simultaneously - that’s normal - so do whatever you need to do to take good and gentle care of yourself. And enjoy the more peaceful home with no eggshells needed lol.

I know one of your biggest fears in your first post was that your kids would go with her, but it sounds as if they are staying with you and have their own opinions about her behavior? If so, that’s one bit of her magic happy picture that is not going to plan bc…well….grown up real life choices come with effects and not always the ones we like, right? Has she got that magical great new job yet? 

If I were a betting woman, confident or not, your wife will get her own life lessons that come with the new free single life she wants….she may or may not like them or learn from them, time will tell.  But it sounds as if one of them is that you are not interested in being her back up ‘friend’ - wisely imho - so her moving out is a good time for you to consider some new boundaries that work for you.

I might be wrong but it sounded as if FiL came for Xmas at MiL’s house with stepfather? Don’t be surprised if your wife expects to mirror this bc it is FOO familiar to her, hence the ‘friends’ thing, no matter how odd it might seem to others. But just keep reminding yourself that it is ok to say No thanks to this or other things. You have the right to decide what ‘separated’, or indeed ‘divorced’ if that happens, means practically to you. Once one has been fired as a spouse, doing something just bc your spouse wants or expects it is no longer the MO for most of us. Weirdly, that seems to come as a bit of a shock even to the most enthusiastic MLCer. The weak spot of their self centredness I expect is that they assume others will do what they want bc they want it but forget that other humans have their own lives, priorities and preferences….

Your kids are young adults so capable of having an independent relationship with her as they choose, for instance, so if you choose, no need to be available at the end of a text or update her about anything to do with your lives other than life threatening emergencies. And that might feel like a nice break for your nervous system too tbh  ….a bit of peace. Plus you get a free pass from spending holiday time with a difficult MiL which is a win  Most of us here initially fear them moving out as a turning point, but truthfully it can also make it easier to focus on our own recovery and healing too. You get to resign from being the nail, my friend, if you wish. And what you decide as new boundaries are the door to that.

Have you taken legal advice now that she has moved out? Any financial issues or assets where you need to protect yourself?

Do you have any nice plans or activities going on that will lift your spirits a bit?
How are you doing?
And how are your kids doing?

[Treasur]

And a PS bc I am thinking of you this morning.
I know that these last few months probably feel endless, but it is also true that it is still very early days. That means, if your story follows the textbook here, your wife’s behaviour and events might get worse before they get better bc these folks just seem to have a tremendous capacity for drama and bridge burning.

But the more important thing is to recognise that it is still early days for YOU in losing a valued wife, marriage and the old family set up. Twenty odd years does not vanish overnight…well, unless you’re an MLCer lol.
And still early days in figuring out what your own next looks like while working out the healthiest way for you and your kids to navigate through the current s$it. You will have some trial and error, some falling down and getting up, bc that is the reality of how it goes. We all did; most of us are still upright on the other side though.

So please be very kind to yourself on those days when it feels understandably awful to have to do so. That might not feel important, but it really is part of how you get your strength and spirit back.

[readytofixmyselffirst]

Hello,

My W has signed a lease and moving out starting tomorrow.

Don't let this trouble you. She's been mentally checked out for a long time and this will allow you to live for you and the kids without having to deal with the poltergeist that resides in your house. The evil spirit left willingly and left you with your home. Many instances where the LBSer leaves the home to the MLCer.  Just know that right now everything is new and shiny and cool. New pad, decorate the place my way, and it goes on. Six months later, it is a dumpy apartment. Just don't get pulled into helping her out. You want to be alone, then you live alone. Don't try to be her part time helper/friend.

My MIL (whom I don’t care for) wants us to to still do holidays together but that’s not gonna work for me.

I agree with you on this and it is a personal decision. I didn't want to force a "happy" occasion or "celebrate family" where none existed. Too much anxiety and fakeness for me. Others can handle it and do quite well and I am happy for them, It's not a right or wrong thing, but something that we have to follow our own feelings in how we would feel during such an event.

I’m not at all surprised it’s coming to this since my wife is a very confident person.

I wanted to chime in and discuss the "confident" as opposed to "decisive" and "stubborn". In one of your first posts, you wrote that your wife had an affair eleven years ago. She was influenced by a group of women and that led to her choices. Confident people are not easily swayed by the influences of others. If anything, you are the more confident one as you were able to work past the affair. Affairs shatter the confidence of the non-affair partner and makes us questions every aspect of our relationship and of ourselves.

She also reads tarot cards and places faith in how pictures are interpreted by how they are dealt? Does that sound like a confident person or a person seeking justification? 
 

So please be very kind to yourself on those days when it feels understandably awful to have to do so. That might not feel important, but it really is part of how you get your strength and spirit back.

I agree on this. Your health and how you move forward these next few days. Don't let her bad decisions pull you down. Take care of you and your kids and you will be just fine.

Have an awesome day,

(((Ready)))