[Inanna]

Alrighty... I've been reading on this forum for a while. It's time to share my story. Sit back, relax and take out the popcorn 
But I really don't know how to put it all into words, so it might be a multiple-post story, but I'll give it a try for this first post.

—

It was one evening, October 7th, 2023, so my BD is about 2,5 months ago.
Eeeek, I'm still very much at the beginning of my journey, ain't I? 

We were getting ready to get to sleep.
And I had this nagging feeling... AGAIN... that something was off. He felt so distant, uninterested, emotionally unavailable, and it has been going on for several months now, if not longer, but more subtle at first. And this time, I just knew I wasn't going to be able to go to sleep without getting answers.

And so I asked him (AGAIN!). And he started making excuses (AGAIN!): tired, stress at work, father is ill (cancer), need time for myself, yadayadayada...
I shared with him what I felt and kept pushing because I knew that he was making excuses. It felt very "off" (I know him for 23 years!) and this time, I didn't want to give him the benefit of the doubt anymore. No more!

He became defensive. Really bugged by my questions. That's when I realized there WAS something OFF, for sure!
And so I bluntly asked him: "Do you even want to be with me anymore?"
And he immediately said: "Well, maybe WE should think about it." (As if he didn't know the answer already.)

Of course, I was still shocked by what he said.
You know, I knew there was something off, but not in a million years I would've thought our marriage was on the verge of collapse.
I didn't say anything and he just continued: "Well, I guess I'll tell you everything now."
HUH? WHAT?
And that's when my body already reacted before I could register the words.
"I've met someone four months ago and I want to start a life with her. I want to divorce you."

I honestly can't remember if he said something else after that. I can't remember if I replied.
I only remember the shock to my system, like, eyes wide open, staring into the void, crying so hard, collapsing onto the bed and him standing in the doorway not knowing what to do next. He had this weird look on his face. Something I never saw before.
I remember that we did have a conversation but I don't know what it was about. I remember at a certain point that I asked him to leave the room so that I could call my parents — even though it was late at night — because I needed to hear someone who could tell me I was still alive and breathing, that I was awake and not dreaming.

After that phone call with my parents (and they were truly shocked as well!), I opened the door of the bedroom and he immediately came out of his office space. He asked me if he should leave to sleep somewhere else. And I asked him to stay and I remember saying: "I need someone to be here because I don't trust myself to stay alive." I think it startled him. He said he would stay and so he took the spare room. I don't know what I did that night but it wasn't sleeping. I felt sick to my stomach.

The next morning, right after he woke up, he found himself an Airbnb nearby, said goodbye to our animals and me, and left.
But not before we had a short conversation on our terrace outside (it was beautiful weather for an October day) and heard him say the words: "I love you but I'm not in love with you. I can't be your husband anymore. We're incompatible."

23 years of relationship, since October 2000. 17 years of marriage. We met when I was barely 21 and he was almost 23. He was so infatuated with me and wanted to marry way earlier than I could say "yes" to him. We eventually married in 2006.
We renewed our vows only 7 years ago in front of all of our friends and family. Some people are still talking about that day.
We had just invested a lot in our rental home (which we rent from his best friend and our accountant), took two new cats in (to complement our two big dogs), and I just finished a certification program the month before and would start a new career from scratch as an independent life coach.

Now everything was in pieces... complete standstill of my life. Our life. Our future.

—

Those first weeks... I can hardly remember how I survived through the days.
I remember cooking fresh and healthy meals because I have had a habit of doing it for several years now. I usually cooked for both of us and now I had to cook all those recipes (it's a recipe/ingredient delivery service every week) just for myself. I could not focus on anything: I read a lot and listen to podcasts a lot, but I just couldn't register the words. I don't know how I spent my days in those first weeks... maybe only doing research as to what the Hell happened. I remember having many conversations with friends and family, but I lost almost every one of our mutual friends because "they didn't want to get in the middle" even though I didn't ask them to pick sides. So stupid!!!

I know my parents stepped up and called almost every day, visiting every week (they don't live nearby).
I was alone with the animals: 2 big dogs, 2 cats, and three chickens; in a huge house with a huge garden — and they're a handful to care for on my own (it actually takes two, but he bolted!). We don't have kids (conscious choice... but now I wonder...).

We had contact on a daily basis. He just wanted to discuss practicalities and divorce stuff.
I felt like I was in some kind of mist/fog just going along, not really realizing what was happening to me. And he surely didn't even think of what it would do to me. He just thought we could be FRIENDS 
We got to one mediation session and it was so horrible that I asked him for time to heal first. He agreed on three months (which is WAAAAY too short, of course) so we will be reevaluating it end of January. I pushed for a temporary settlement, just between the two of us, because I was so scared of what he would do next: we're both in the same business, although we have separate occupations (and I'm not financially strong enough to do without his support), and he has a habit of spending when he doesn't feel good (thank God his AP has a well-paid job at this time!). We put something on paper and our fathers co-signed it. It's not legally bound, but it's something...

Then the emotional cycling began: I was getting out of shock in the second or third week, I think, and the extreme emotional wave hit me. Anger, despair, grief, disappointment, denial, more anger, you name it! It just didn't make sense to me why he would do this to me, and early on, I realized I couldn't even recognize him anymore. It felt like an alien took hold of his body: I saw the body and face of my husband, but the one who did the talking seemed to be someone else. I started noticing this "Jekyll and Hyde" thing in him, glimpses of the old him but someone else was taking the wheel. His coldness, although he would only Monster after I emotionally cycled toward him, him being so self-absorbed, with no remorse, taking no responsibility whatsoever, and then saying these weird things about our marriage and me, and comparing it with the AP. But at the same time, he would also be nice, trying to help out, wanting me to have a good life, etc. It was all so confusing and horrible. I felt like I woke up into a nightmare and the nightmare doesn't seem to stop. Limbo, Twilight Zone, you name it, I've been there.

And I just couldn't get myself to stop "harassing" him with texts and e-mails about what was going on with him, with me, with us, with him and the AP. Early on, in the second week, I stumbled onto Vikki Stark's Runaway Husbands site, and there I learned about the Midlife Crisis for the first time. And it made sense. And then I came to the Hero's Spouse site and it made even more sense. And since then, I have been researching and reading relentlessly. And I couldn't keep myself from sharing a lot of it with my husband, even though I knew that it wouldn't make any difference: he just wasn't listening. We had several huge fights over the phone. I just exploded with anger and grief and he was the one receiving (well, not really), trying to make excuses and justifications for everything that he'd done and was still doing. In his head, people just fall out of love, end relationships, divorce, and yes... even cheat! "Happens all the time," he said. I could've killed him if he would've been in the same room with me!!!

During those fights, he couldn't keep his mouth shut about the AP, of course, telling me what a wonderful woman she is, that she had such a hard life but came back from that, that she truly understands him and gives him what he needs, while I couldn't (he's getting rough and passionate sex from her and our sex was never "liberated," even during our first weeks together), and she wants him to give me "closure" so that I could move on, etc. It would really set me off into screaming because it all sounded so absurd to me! He was painting a picture of our relationship that I couldn't make sense of like we had a completely different marriage experience together.

I asked him why he didn't tell me he was having doubts about our relationship, and why he acted like everything was okay, even after my asking him several times, multiple times about what was going on with him, because I could sense something wasn't quite right. He didn't have the answer. He just said that he needed to work on his communication, and he's doing that in therapy.
And he also stated that he regrets not telling me about the affair, lying to me, etc. But I could really feel he wasn't feeling remorse, not at all. "But I don't regret meeting her," he said. Yeah...

I mean, I could go on. It's all MLC script, right?

—

So, the AP lives abroad. They met through work because she's part of a project he's part of, too. They met during a virtual group meeting about the project. He asked her for her contact details — and he said it was to work something out with her for the project, but I don't believe that's true (he has a history of multiple EAs, by the way) — and they got together via text and video chat, and so he fell in love, and she reciprocated.
Then they physically met in her country during my birthday weekend, supposedly him going to a conference, and I panicked that weekend (that was a week before BD) and sent him some texts, and he didn't read them for hours, and so I panicked even more and called him. I don't know why I panicked, it was my intuition, I guess, but I thought it had something to do with me and not him — me just not feeling right and wanting to talk to him to see if I would be able to feel better. He picked up the phone immediately and I told him about the texts, and he said they were never delivered. And we had some kind of a fight because I needed emotional support but he acted all distant. And at a certain point, I heard myself saying: "Are you even alone over there?" And he lied. And I laughed because it sounded so ridiculous when I said it.
But SHE WAS THERE... They had sex!!! And I didn't sleep that whole night because I couldn't make sense of how I felt that day. It was so weird. But I never thought he would do that to me. I really thought I was just going through something and that's why I felt so weird that day.
He returned from that trip on my birthday (a Monday) and immediately went to take a nap upstairs because "he was so tired from the conference and traveling." That was my birthday. And I got gifts that his AP chose (and I threw them away the moment I learned about that).

They have a long-distance relationship over texts and video chat, and they meet once maybe every month or two months where he travels to her country, or she comes to our country.
They hardly know each other!!!
She's also in a divorce now (but told him that the relationship was over before they started the affair) with two kids (D15 and D8) from different relationships, while she stepped into the affair knowing he was cheating on me. Oh, and she's 10 years younger than him 

—

A few weeks ago, his AP suddenly popped up on Facebook. He was still on my friends list because he's not active on Facebook, so I hadn't removed him. And he assured me early on that she wasn't even ON social media. So, I never thought about looking her up and deleting her. But Facebook showed her on my "people you might know" tab and apparently, she had been active recently, liking some of my husband's posts (that is probably why FB picked up on her and showed me her profile in the list).
I exploded!!! I've never witnessed this much anger within me. I sent him a text to tell him about her FB activity, and he called me, and I screamed at him for half an hour. Really, I didn't recognize myself anymore. These kinds of fights we never had during our relationship. We had fights, yes, but it always quickly ended in having those hard conversations like grownups do to make sure we meet each other halfway. He would always take pride in our communication and even gave marriage counseling to his colleagues because we had such a strong and healthy relationship.

And he tried to make excuses once again, and I tackled every single one of them and threw them back in his face. And I slammed the phone down and went "dark" on him for the first time.

I now know that she actually wanted to make sure that I saw her.
"Small" detail: she had an artistic naked picture of herself as a profile picture (but sideways, so still allowed by FB policy). My body "saw" it before my mind registered it. I got severely triggered by that picture.

Shortly after that phone call, she immediately blocked me, before I had the chance to block her. How did she know?
And since, my husband has been sharing some little remarks about her interfering with our relationship, telling him what to do with me, so that I would "move on."
The game seems to be on between them... and he doesn't realize it yet. They're just beyond their 6-month affair mark, but still... it's a long-distance relationship 

—

So, where am I now?
After that phone call and going dark (I blocked him everywhere so he could only e-mail me), I had a week of deep grief like I never experienced before. It was really, really hard and I had very dark thoughts. But my support network and my therapist are truly amazing. And I was able to fill my schedule with some things I really wanted to do, like learning how to resuscitate and defibrillate, so I did a course with the Red Cross and really enjoyed it. I also started going to (evangelic) church with a mutual friend (who didn't pick sides), something I haven't done since childhood. I was a non-practicing catholic but I let myself removed from the baptismal register recently, and I'm now reestablishing my connection and relationship with God in a totally new way (I had a few interesting experiences in the past weeks during praying).

That phone call was only a little over two weeks ago, though.
And one week after having barely any contact (only one exchange of invoices for the accountancy books), he suddenly sent me a long e-mail, sharing about what was going on with him (and I'll keep those details for another post because this is getting long). And that's when I could really sense that he was truly running away. It helped me put everything more in perspective, seeing him as someone who probably never really had a chance but run, because of the severity of what he went through in his childhood that was never resolved, and now he gets a chance to resolve it.

It doesn't excuse anything he has done in the recent past, but it does give me a way out of his crisis and into my healing journey.
And since I got that e-mail, it has been a lot easier to emotionally detach more. I'm not there yet, still a loooong way to go, but I've been having better and more balanced days now. And I'm finally being able to write this because, before, I just didn't have the headspace.

But something I also started about a month ago is writing about my experiences and what I learned about him and his MLC. I have a blog (in Dutch) I'm writing anonymously, and it's helpful. It's therapeutic.
I also had a first session with a therapist last month, and this month, we started working together more intensely (one session every two weeks - she didn't have the room in her schedule until this month), and she's been a great support. She's very open to the whole MLC concept. She's also specialized in trauma therapy (EMDR is her specialty).

—

So, this is part of my story and journey with my MLCer. At least, the BD and first months of Replay part. But lots happened before BD as well, in retrospect.
It's obvious he's a high-energy Replayer at this time, and he seems to be a Boomerang, but I'm not entirely sure, because I was the one initiating a lot of contact between us. But he's definitely not clinging. He doesn't seem to need any reassurance from me.

As far as I know, he still wants to get divorced. We've been to our accountant to talk about the business, and he's planning on making appointments for a second opinion (I asked for it because our current accountant is his best friend) and an appointment with a business lawyer. I've been seeking my own legal counsel in the meantime as well (and my father is helping me out with the legal research and the practical stuff).

But he will have to do the work. I'm not initiating anything. He knows I'm Standing (and I explained why: because he's in limerence and there's no way we can have "closure" at this time concerning our marriage). But of course, he thinks nothing's wrong with him and he can think very clearly despite the affair and all the decisions he made and actions he took, lol 

To be continued...

[Inanna]

Okay... I continue with part II: what I saw happening to my MLCer, in retrospect, before BD...

My MLCer has severe complex trauma, and I'm only now learning about some of the details, as my MLCer is in therapy to uncover more of his trauma, and he's been having recent new memories as well. He was sexually abused by a "friend" of the family between ages 8 and 14. And now, just recently, he remembers there were two predators, not just one.
At age 16, his best friend shot herself (suicide) and he never saw it coming. Only a week ago, it was the 30th anniversary of her death — a few days after, he had therapy, and the morning after therapy, he sent me that loooong e-mail (see my previous/original post).

But there's more. His mother is a covert passive-aggressive narcissist. She wanted a big family, but after my husband was born, she got an ectopic pregnancy which was terminated and she got a hysterectomy afterward. He feels she never recovered from it mentally/emotionally, and seeing he was her only child, he was never able to satisfy her emotional needs. His father, on the other hand, was quite absent. He was a primary school teacher and was always focused on his children from school, instead of spending time with his son. His father is now diagnosed with terminal cancer (got the diagnosis this Summer, when the affair was already ongoing).
His only family trustee, his grandmother, unfortunately, died when the sexual abuse started, so he was never able to confide in her. And he felt that he couldn't confide in his parents, so he went through that ordeal all by himself.

That's his trauma history that he's aware of now.

When we met, he was almost 23, so 7 years after the suicide, but he was on a rampage. He says I "saved" him because our relationship gave him a way out of a lifestyle that would have continued getting him into trouble. And surely, for the next 20 years, he would absolutely become a very stable, trustworthy, providing, strong, reliable, loving man to me and everyone he came in contact with. Everyone looks up to him and he has a lot of charisma. He worked his way up to become an irreplaceable hot-shot manager/consultant everyone depends on.

And yet... he had several EAs throughout our marriage, the last one being last year up to Spring this year, which was a very disturbing one for him, and then shortly after, he began an affair with another woman.

—

Now, where did it all go off the rails for our marriage?
Six years ago, at the beginning of 2018, his sexual abuse trauma resurfaced. We were in the middle of having sex (I took the initiative this time, because I was recovering from an anxiety disorder years before, and rejected him a lot when it came to being intimate) and he suddenly stopped me and said that he was having flashbacks. We never had sex after that because he wanted space and of course, I understood completely and gave him space. I tried to have the conversation multiple times after in the following years, but never succeeded in really having it, and he would take more and more time to himself. But you know... I understood. And I gave him that space. But I did notice that he was watching porn a lot more than usual in the following years. I once ran into him masturbating while watching porn in our bathroom. It was really awkward and I remember him running after me when I left the room, explaining that watching porn is normal and most men do it (but for me, it wasn't so much the porn, it was the fact that we weren't intimate anymore).

But hey, he went into therapy for a while to work through the trauma. But then he also quit therapy quite early on. I mean, I've been in therapy since I was 16 because of my anxiety issues, and I knew that a trauma like that would need YEARS of therapy, and he quit after maybe 10 sessions or so.

I saw these weird changes in him. He started having hobbies that were a little unlike him. Usually, he would go into nature to take pictures (he's an amateur landscape photographer and his pictures are truly stunning — he won prizes) or he would print 3D figures and paint them. But this time, he bought a huge pick-up truck (which is really not common in our small country), went on airsoft adventures with the guys, and bought many new very realistic war guns (not real ones). He started training for Strongman and got himself a personal coach. And I was glad about the latter because he started eating a lot healthier, quit drinking, and worked out several times a week.

But about a year ago, he suddenly asked me if it would be okay for him to get a real gun. And I was getting these red flags now. Like... why? Really, it's not common in our country. Gun laws are really strict. He started going to the shooting range and shortly before BD, he did his exams and is now a legal member of the shooting range and is allowed to shoot bigger guns (I don't know the details, it's not my thing, lol).

But you know, I thought that seeing the nature of his trauma, he just needed to overcompensate for the lack of control he might have felt while his sexual abuse was going on. I really thought he just wanted to feel and be stronger and more in control. I was concerned about the gun license (but fortunately, because we're now separated and he wants a divorce, he's legally not allowed to get his license because this is not a stable home situation) but everything else made kinda sense to me. He was, in my opinion, actively working on resolving his trauma. And he went back into therapy in 2021 with a different therapist and it seemed to go well. He learned about his mother's narcissism and he also got into group therapy with people who experienced a similar trauma, and they even asked him to be a group guide because everyone admired his coping and his leadership.

But now looking back, I can see that when his trauma resurfaced, he wasn't coping as well as he thought. And in his looooong e-mail from last week, he shared that he felt like he was getting into a depression and needed to get out (hence he emotionally disconnected from me, "lost" his feelings for me, needed to get out, started the affair and got his getaway — boom! BD!).

—

Another factor is that at the end of 2021, a colleague of his died very suddenly in her sleep. And he was very close to her (not an EA). This shocked him. And earlier that year, one of his favorite teachers from school, back when the suicide happened, died as well, during a marathon.
Shortly after his colleague died, at the beginning of 2022, he told his parents about his sexual abuse trauma for the first time. His father was really, really shocked and felt very, very guilty (later this year, after the terminal cancer diagnosis of his father, my H once shared that he thought he made his father ill by telling him about the trauma. He thought he was responsible for the cancer). But his mother — and this was his fear — made it all about her and was angry that he didn't bother to tell her when it was going on. Typically narcissism.

I now know these were all important triggers for him.
Also, in the Summer of 2021, between the two deaths, they found a rare gene mutation in my family on my mother's side, which puts me at a higher risk of dying from heart failure, this was my midlife transition, by the way, because I suddenly was confronted with my own mortality (and that of several family members). I think, him watching me going through that, was frightening to him as well, because I really struggled and had depression for several months, but I bounced back and I was okay after that (and I changed some things in my lifestyle and I'm accepting of this potential health risk).

I think he wasn't able to come to me with whatever he was experiencing and feeling — I don't know why. But last year, he got into his last EA, and it had been years before he had an EA, so I thought we worked through that, but this time, it was really bad. He had severe emotional cycling and this colleague, she was married with 4 kids and really struggling with depression. She wasn't emotionally available to him and he really suffered from her going back and forth between wanting to help him but not being able to because of her own issues. It was truly a trauma bond, and he learned about trauma bonds in therapy.

But it took him several months to let go of her. And I'm not sure he did, because, from one day to the next, he just didn't talk about her anymore. Now I know that was the time when he met the AP. And he never talked about the AP. He was already disconnected from me, for sure. I never suspected the affair, not one moment, except for that weird moment when he was abroad for that conference (see my previous/original post).

—

There was one moment earlier this year, before the affair started, that he once came home from work and he really didn't feel good. He wanted to talk and I think he was still struggling with the EA. He said that he felt that I wasn't able to validate him enough and that he needed me to validate him more. And we had a hard conversation with no real resolution.
I said to him that I couldn't possibly validate him enough for him to be satisfied and that he needed to find validation within himself. And he understood, he said, because that was what his therapist had told him, and they would work on it together. But I felt that he really struggled with this and really wanted me to give him what he felt was lacking.

After that conversation, and it was around March/April this year, I really felt something inside me shifting, like, this was a turning point for us. I truly hoped he would be able to do something about this because I knew I wasn't able to give him what he needed. We never talked about it again, and shortly after, the affair began. So, he just went elsewhere. I think that after that conversation, he consciously or subconsciously made the decision that I wasn't his person anymore and that he needed to look elsewhere. I truly believe that he opened himself up to other women/potential partners after that conversation. And he kinda confirmed that (not directly) through the long e-mail he sent me last week.

—

This is so heartbreaking. Because I stood by him for 23 years thinking he would always be able to come to me with his inner struggles.
But he didn't. In the past years, and I'm so mad because of the trauma, he just slipped into the depression but didn't know how to handle it. It just became too much for him. He needed to get out.
You know... MLC script and all that. I have a heavy heart writing this.

—

So, he sent me this e-mail last week, after I went "dark" on him for about a week because of our last phone call in which I was soooo enraged about the AP.
He wrote about his trauma and that he admits he felt like he was getting depressed. He shared a bit about what he talked about with the therapist the day before, and because he just went to the 30th anniversary of his friend's suicide, he suddenly realized, he wrote, that what his friend did to him when she killed herself, he was doing to me: that he didn't let me into knowing about his internal turmoil and kept it all from me, and then dropped the bomb.
He didn't commit suicide, but he did kill our marriage off and left me no choice/no voice whatsoever.

He said that in therapy, he understood that there was no other way for him than to run because otherwise, he wouldn't have been able to function/cope, and that his affair was indeed a coping mechanism, a flight response like his therapist explained to him.

But then he went on writing that he discussed with his therapist whether the affair is a healthy relationship or not, and he strongly believes it is healthy 
So yeah, he's holding onto the affair for dear life at this time 

But you know, I was really happy with that e-mail, although he also shared some things which tells me that the AP is interfering in it all, especially what he does with me (he wrote that the AP pushed him to share more with me, so that I would find "closure" and am able to "move on." In other words, she wants him to get rid of me, duh.).

The thing is, I think his therapist is really the right person for him now, but breaking out of the limerence with the AP, I'm sure he's not willing to and will need to continue the MLC process, despite of what his therapist is probably trying to make him see and understand. But knowing she's seeing what I see, I'm glad he's in therapy. But still... I'm wary of where this is going. I try to let it go and focus on me now I'm still "dark" (but I did reply to his e-mail and validated him but also shared that the affair couldn't possibly be healthy because of how it started) and he has to take the initiative to contact me.

—

But anyway... I felt his depression quite early on, I believe, but I didn't recognize it as a depression.
And I felt him redrawing from our relationship at least a couple of years ago, very subtly at first, but then more tangible this year leading up to the affair, and that's when it was really becoming very visible to me, but I never expected him having an affair — the man I was in a happy relationship with for more than 20 years just wouldn't do something like that. Everything he did when the affair started was very out of character for him. But I kept giving him the benefit of the doubt... because, yeah, you know... I KNOW him  Even with the EAs, we always managed to work through it together. He was always open about his struggles, but he stopped doing that when the affair started, and if he was able to make sense of his depression, I'm sure he would have shared it with me.

But the fact is, we never had sex after that time in 2018. And he redrew more and more from me emotionally. And he lost himself in these weird hobbies and then the triggers happened. The train already left the station the moment his trauma resurfaced, I'm sure. There was probably NOTHING I could've done. Absolutely NOTHING!

And recently, when my father and I met my H at the accountant, a few weeks ago, my father asked me afterward: "Since when is K. shaving his beard?"
And then it dawned on me: bloody hell!!! He did that when the affair started!!!
So, that's definitely when the children started popping up. He NEVER shaved his beard except for trimming. I sometimes asked him because when I met him, he didn't have a beard, but he refused to shave because he felt more confident with the beard, he looked more like an adult, and people would take him more seriously. There was NO WAY he would shave, even if I would force him to. But he did it, when the affair started. And I didn't understand... until now. He's back reliving his childhood...

To be continued...

[readytofixmyselffirst]

Hello,

Welcome to the club that no should ever have to join, however, you will get some great advice on how to navigate your new reality.

"I've met someone four months ago and I want to start a life with her. I want to divorce you."

Don't you just love the "I've set up shop at a new store and I am now getting around to sending you the email letting you know".

I remember at a certain point that I asked him to leave the room so that I could call my parents — even though it was late at night — because I needed to hear someone who could tell me I was still alive and breathing, that I was awake and not dreaming.

I've been on this site for thirteen years and I still can't read a bomb drop story without coming to tears because of the pain of ultimate betrayal, confusion and loss of all reality. Your whole world just crumbles."

I opened the door of the bedroom and he immediately came out of his office space. He asked me if he should leave to sleep somewhere else.

What a great guy. He stabs you in the back, but he is there to offer you a band aid while you bleed out.

And he surely didn't even think of what it would do to me. He just thought we could be FRIENDS 

Yes, the infamous mindset of the MLCer. I can dump my spouse, life , and everything else for my own narcissistic life- but its all good because we're still friends. Of course the only commitment in that relationships is to half heartedly offer to meet for lunch once a month. You never actually go out for lunch, but it's the thought that counts. We're friends.

We don't have kids (conscious choice... but now I wonder...).

Be careful going down this path. Your MLCer knows all your weak points  and will apply the pressure to knock you off balance. Read through the posts, and you will find MLCers that have left the spouse because of the stress of having children, having one too many, or one too few. They wanted a boy and only got a girl. The list goes on and on. All of this has nothing to do with children or you. It has nothing to do with the marriage either or your animals. This is a crisis of self and acceptance of self as who they are and where they are going.

Now let's get to the good stuff.

I remember cooking fresh and healthy meals because I have had a habit of doing it for several years now.

That's great. I lost twenty lbs and everyone thought I was terminally ill. I know you have a lot on your plate, but being busy and not having a lot of time to contemplate his current life and actions is far healthier than spending hours and hours obsessing on how you could have been a better wife and stopped all of this from happening in the first place. I know you feel terrible right now, but you have put a lot of things in place that will help you detach from him and allow you to start living as if he isn't coming back.

During those fights, he couldn't keep his mouth shut about the AP, of course, telling me what a wonderful woman she is, that she had such a hard life but came back from that, that she truly understands him and gives him what he needs, while I couldn't (he's getting rough and passionate sex from her and our sex was never "liberated," even during our first weeks together), and she wants him to give me "closure" so that I could move on, etc.

I made a huge mistake and compared myself to OM. I never met him, new saw him really, and all the information I got on him was that he was just wonderful and I wasn't.  The alienator is not someone extra special or extra worse. Chances are, they are a really crappy person, but only time will tell. Just remember that Shakira got dumped. On a karma note, her ex fell off stage while he was on his cell phone. Just think, if Shakira can get dumped, than anyone can get dumped and it is all without any reason at all. As you ex is busy making terrible decisions to blow up his life, do you think he suddenly excelled in making mate choices?

but I don't believe that's true (he has a history of multiple EAs, by the way)

My ex as well. She actually enjoyed the whole idea of falling in love than actually being in love. Those damn brain chemicals are all over the place.

So, I am going to give you a continue, a start, and a stop now. First, continue to eat healthy and taking care of your finances as part of the settlement. You are continuing to live your life and you shouldn't stop. Big shiny star to you. Start with a journal and begin with some personal affirmations that are positive about you. Your entire self took a big hit and you need to take time to recognize who you are and to heal from the trauma. Finally, stop talking about OW. That's your first boundary with him. You or him didn't make any vows to her so she is out of the equation. She's not magical and right now, he is using her as much as he is using you. If she really wants to bring closure for you, she can walk out the door. Other than that, she is nothing to you. She is different- not unique. Talking about her or their amazing life together is futile and only hurts your psyche. So if he brings her up, just politely state that you are not going to talk about her and if he persists, the conversation is over. This will help keep you calm and won't give him the opportunity to rub salt in your wounds.

Just keep posting and know that we are here to support you,

(((Ready)))

[Inanna]

Thank you, readytofixmyselffirst 

I came to a place in which I'm not really thinking much about the AP anymore.
Of course, when sharing my journey, it's hard not to involve her, hehe...
But from time to time, I do slip up and there she is again. Especially because my H brings her up, of course.
But what my H did and does is far more painful than she could ever do to me.

—

I also just remembered something my H wrote in his long e-mail.
The fact that he is afraid of me because I seem to go through my process (before BD) in one straight line, he thinks, while he feels like he's just all over the place and running behind.

That's for sure, lol. Ain't that right!

But he forgot something... I've worked on myself for many years, and started dealing with my own childhood traumas when I was still in my twenties. Had therapy all through my thirties. Felt like I finally moved through my motherwound by age 40.
2019 was really my top year. But in 2018, his trauma resurfaced, so he was going downhill instead.

It was not a straight-lined process. Far from it!
I've been in hell, recovered from a severe anxiety disorder, panic attacks, a sleeping disorder, deep feelings of inadequacy and lack of self-worth, burn-out, exhaustion, you name it.
I barely survived.

He sat first row and it seems that he didn't pay attention, lol.
On the contrary, after BD, he called all my past suffering "I don't need more of your drama." (He was Monstering at that time.)
I know that it's his MLC persona talking but still... If he would've paid attention, he would've learned how to move through trauma and ordeal instead of running away from it. He saw me doing it for all these years!

And this is my gift to myself: all that work I did with/on myself, everything I learned, I can now put to use to move through this ordeal. But I'd rather have 10 anxiety disorders than experience this again. This is by far the worst thing I've ever had to deal with. And for what? For a man who sat first-row, watching me move through the ordeal, but then being too chicken to go through it himself. What a waste! That's on him.

Anyway... I know I will get through this. The worst part for me is not so much the emotional/mental stuff and the trauma (yet, it is total HORROR for sure), but the fact that he knew what I've overcome in my life, and still, he couldn't help but putting me through another trauma? I mean... HOW...? 

How is he ever going to catch up with me?
It seems impossible now. Feels like he needs a miracle of some sort, lol.

So, it's like he's just given up and taken the "easy road."
And yet, you and I know that his road is the worst of all, lol. He thinks he can run but life will catch up and make him face it or more misery will come his way. That's just the truth.
His self-hatred must really run deep.
And it's ridiculous that he can hardly feel any of it right now because of that stupid limerence.

And I don't want to be in a relationship with someone who feels threatened by my inner power and strength all the time.
So yeah... I'm Standing, but I'm not sure how he will become the person he needs to be to be in an equal relationship with me. I'm not lowering my standards; no way!

On the other hand, what he does in therapy is good. If he sticks to it. It's a step.
But he's sooo naive and arrogant at this time, thinking he is now actually "doing the work," while it's just the limerence he feels. The real work yet has to start and it will be Hell with a capital H. I warned him... well... yeah.

[Treasur]

 Words - in multiple languages too, gosh - are obviously your thing. (Me too, waves  )
I hope that you found the process of laying it out here helpful.
We are all so sorry that you have experienced these things, and many of us recognise both your feelings and your h’s behaviour. As Ready says, even dimmed by time, the echoes of BD often touch us deeply when a new LBS posts.

And you are right to remember that this is very new and raw for you, so a kind eye on oneself is important.

How can we best help you right now?

[Inanna]

Thank you so much, Treasur 

And I don't know. Just being able to write and share this with y'all, knowing that you understand, is already giving me a LOT! 
So thank you for listening/reading. There aren't too many people around who truly understand unless they have experienced it for themselves (and I know only a few), but even then, the Standing part, most people don't understand.

So, it's good to be here, even though I wished I would've never had to be part of this club, you know 

I'm still fairly new to this forum, so I'm reading bits and pieces here and there. I started with the resources and I'm now reading some of the stories. What a treasure, this forum.

—

Today, I had to go to the vet with my cat. Normally, my husband and I would've gone together tomorrow, but after our fight on the phone two weeks ago, I split up the appointment into two appointments and arranged for our files with the vet to be split, so that he is responsible for the other cat (who lives with him) and I'm responsible for the animals that live here (two big dogs and one cat). It was my first visit by myself to the vet. In the 23 years that we cared for animals together (and we had many), we always went together. But our vets know us very well, so they were really really extra caring today for me. It was a positive experience, going on my own. I don't think they will be that caring tomorrow, when he has to go with the other cat, lol.

But it hurts to see how indifferent my H has become toward our animals. Our oldest dog just turned 10 and my H just forgot. We took him in in 2019 and he was my H's best buddy. They went everywhere together and when my H came home from work, he would greet the dog before me and the rest of the animals.

But when he slipped more and more into the depression, which became more visible with the corona lockdowns in 2020 if you ask me, he started paying less and less attention to the animals, even to our oldest dog. I never understood why, but now I do. I wasn't the only one he was emotionally withdrawing from. He hardly ever went on walks with the dog anymore and was irritated a lot when we took the dog somewhere. I had to push to go to the vet for the yearly shots and we were always late, and the vets had to give us a lecture on being on time with the shots. I always felt embarrassed about it.

This Summer, our oldest dog should've gotten a heart examination because of his age, but I just couldn't get my H to arrange an appointment with me. I should've gone by myself. I now know he was already having the affair.

After BD, he never asked once about the animals. He just wanted to take our youngest cat to his apartment, and I know it's mostly because he cannot live with the AP, so he needs some company while living alone. While he was Monstering, he would be angry with me because of not being able to visit the animals, which is not true. He just used my pain as an excuse to say that I didn't want him around, and that's true, I don't want him around, but I would never keep him from visiting the animals. I told him that but still, he hasn't visited nor asked about the animals.

In the beginning, the first weeks, I would still send him pictures of the animals. But I quit doing that a couple of weeks ago. And yet again, never asked about the animals since.

I'm pretty sure he's pissed off that I split the vet appointment and that he has to go by himself with the cat tomorrow. Well, he had it coming. And I don't want to see him right now unless it's really necessary. I need to detach more first.

So yeah, the vet appointment with my cat went very well and I'm glad. Another "first" to add to the list. And I'm confident about going to the vet by myself now.

But it's really sad. Our oldest dog is a Great Dane and 10 years is already quite old for a breed like that (although he's mixed with a Labrador Retriever, so he might get a bit older than pure breeds). I told him a while ago that he will regret not spending time with our dog before he dies. But it doesn't seem to matter to him. Not now that he's in the fog and the limerence.

I try to give my animals as much attention as I can and just continue with their usual structure and daily rhythm. It's a lot of work for one person alone, but I manage. Also something that he doesn't seem to realize: how much work it is for me to care of them by myself. I would've never taken in that many animals (and I have chickens as well, because he wanted them, and now I'm glad I have the eggs, but it's a lot of work) if I were to be by myself. But he's just not thinking about that. It's all about his selfish needs right now.

I'm so glad we don't have kids. Really... I would not know how to manage. I'm really in awe of the LBSs with kids going through this ordeal, really, you guys are amazing!

[Biscuit]

Their indifference with pets is an interesting aspect of MLC benaviour to me. They can say that we’ve hurt or upset them, but an animal that has just been a loving pet? One of the only times mutual friends were shocked by my W’s behaviour was when I told them that W no longer wanted our cats and didn’t even want to see them now they were living with me. Mad how they weren’t so shocked that W didn’t want anything to do with me! But I suppose she had spun them a yarn about what an arse I was! 😂

As w has started to slow down in her replay behaviours she has started to want to come by and see the cats. In early replay they were ‘her’ cats, then ‘your’ cats now they are back to being ‘our’ cats according to her.
Anyway, welcome to the board. You’ll be consuming much of the material on here at the moment I’d imagine, as many of us do when we’re new here. Sorry you’ve found yourself here, but as the wiser people who have already posted you’ll get a lot of good advice and support here.

[Inanna]

Thank you, Biscuit.

And wow, yes, it's interesting how that goes with the pets.
My MLCer is probably still early on in his replay phase, but I'm "looking out" for signs that his relationship with the pets might change anywhere in the future.

—

The past few days, I sense a change in the way I feel.
I feel defeated and disappointed and something in me wants to just give up. I suppose I'm now really detaching more and find myself in state of "whatever," lol.
Is this Acceptance?

I thought acceptance would feel more positive, but it feels... hmmm... neutral?
Like something in me just doesn't care anymore what he's doing. Yet, I still want to hear from him and wish he wasn't so distant and silent, but on the other hand, I just don't want any more drama.

It's also been easier to focus on my own life now. I have some stuff planned with friends (even mutual ones) and family. It's easier to concentrate on work all of a sudden, while I just couldn't focus on work in the past 2.5 months (except for a few hours a week maybe). I'm even dreaming about the future of what my life could look like and who's going to be in it (a mystery man, maybe).

I'm starting to doubt if I want him back. The way he is acting now: that person, I really don't like and don't want in my life (and I made sure he knows that).
Even though it's just been a little over 2.5 months since BD, I seem to lose memory of how it felt before BD. Like, I have this picture in my head of how my H was when we were still happy, but it's fading somehow.

I was always scared that I would stop loving him. I think I still do, but I'm not really worried anymore about whether I still will in the future. I just know I can have a good life without him if I only get through this stupid thing with him wanting a divorce and dissolving our business in the future.

I still have moments of sadness and moments of anger, still, but it doesn't come out the way it did in the past months. I just feel it but I haven't cried in the past days, and I haven't felt like bursting out in anger. It's just all so stupid. He's behaving so stupid and childish. And there's nothing I can do about it. I just witness him going through this thing and just think by myself: what a pity.

And I feel disappointment because he knows what he's doing isn't right and that it only causes more pain and damage. He literally wrote that he was in a depression, apologized for shutting me out, acknowledged that he fled and that his affair is a flight response, and yet... nothing changes. So, so stupid and disappointing.

But then I read the stories from MLCs who went through it and I understand that even though they know, it seems that they cannot snap out of it somehow. Like they're kind of trapped in the fog. They see the damage their actions cause — and my H apologized multiple times and the last time felt more sincere — yet, there is no remorse and it seems like they're not really aware of the true gravity of it all.

I hate that he's in limerence. Again, so, so stupid! Really, stupid man!
I can wish for the affair to fall apart soon, but it's not within my control. And seeing that he has a long-distance affair, it'll probably last a lot longer before the limerence fades.
* sigh * 

He's just an empty shell walking around. He just doesn't realize it yet.
He's warned but too stubborn to give in.
You must lie in your bed the way you made it.

Whatever... <- my current mood.

[Treasur]

I think you might find that it is more a kind of emotional numbing than Acceotance. Partly bc it is very early days for you. Mostly bc so much of your thinking, and posts, are about him or wearing a kind of magic mindreading hat about what is going on with him. And that’s pretty normal, so don’t worry about it. You will probably find you experience a lot of different emotions in the next few months, sometimes in one day lol. And that’s normal too.

Most of us DO detaching and accepting long before we really FEEL detached or Acceotance. But you will know when you get there….my best way to describe it is that it is a calmer and more peaceful place without so many mental monkeys jumping around. 

[Reinventing]

Most of us DO detaching and accepting long before we really FEEL detached or Acceotance. But you will know when you get there….my best way to describe it is that it is a calmer and more peaceful place without so many mental monkeys jumping around

Agree with this. Also, many of us had a rollercoaster emotions in the early days, so if you do as well, don't be disappointed. Every time I felt, "okay, I've got this" and then felt like crap the next day, I was so frustrated that I hadn't reached a continuous "I got this" state. But with time and practice in detaching and using coping strategies, the good days became longer and more frequent.

You sound very self-aware, after all the work on you that you've done, so that will help you tremendously in your healing journey.

[Inanna]

Thanks, Reinventing & Treasur.
Trying to understand what Acceptance is all about vs feeling emotionally numb. Because... I do still feel emotional around other stuff, both the joy and the pain. Healthy emotional, I must say.
Is it possible to feel emotionally numb around the whole MLC H business but emotionally healthy around other stuff in life?

And I find it hard to be on this forum to share my journey because it pulls me back into thinking about him. But I wasn't so much occupied with him in the past days. It's just... describing my story just pulls everything up again, of course. So, it probably looks like — because I'm writing here — I'm constantly thinking about him or trying to fit him in the MLC stages, but I don't feel that way when I leave this forum. Sure, there are moments in which I think about him, and sometimes I obsess for a little bit, but I have post-its all over my home reminding me of: quiet — pursued — calm (I picked up those three words from Hearts Blessing to remind me of letting go and focus on my own life) and it works.

I actually feel okay, and it has been going on for several days now. I sleep okay. I eat okay. No issues focusing. I can read again (I'm a true book reader, but couldn't even finish one book in the past 2 months). But yeah, I'm, of course, also a bit wary of this state and feel like I'm a bit waiting for the next emotional wave to hit me.

Maybe it's because we're almost NC that I feel better. No triggers around every corner. There's more peace and silence. I go about my day. Went to check the tire pressure of my car today. Went to the vet yesterday. Going to a theater play tonight. Therapy tomorrow. Church on Sunday. Meeting family for Christmas on Monday. And it goes on...

Flashes of sadness and anger when I suddenly have a thought about him. But it disappears quickly.
Watching a series on tv and couldn't hold my tears, but it was about the program, not my H, lol. And it actually felt good to cry about something else. Feels familiar because I'm a sucker for certain things like moving moments on tv. Feel more like myself again (yet different from who I was before BD).

Anyway... doesn't matter that much. I'm definitely early on in my journey from what I read on the forum. We'll see what happens next.

[Treasur]

Well, you may be right. Not sure there’s a rule book for LBS either 
You know your self and your own natural baseline best.
I think it’s quite common that reduced contact brings some calm if only bc it is harder to focus on healing when you are still under active fire, and it may be that your prior hard work in understanding and managing your own anxiety is helping you now too.

Out of interest - accepting your point about posting creating a focus on the MLCer - what triggered your choice to post? What were/are you hoping to get by sharing your story here?

[KayDee]

Trying to understand what Acceptance is all about vs feeling emotionally numb. Because... I do still feel emotional around other stuff, both the joy and the pain. Healthy emotional, I must say.
Is it possible to feel emotionally numb around the whole MLC H business but emotionally healthy around other stuff in life?

In my experience, yes. There is often a question 'where does all that love go?" - the love we gave to our spouse. I didn't want to fall into a pit of despair, and I certainly wanted to give love in return for the embrace my loved ones gave me in the wake of BD.  I knew it was important to keep my joy and energy for other people and other things - things that were always separate from my H - like my work for instance. If you can do it (chose it?) then it will certainly aid your healing.

And I find it hard to be on this forum to share my journey because it pulls me back into thinking about him. But I wasn't so much occupied with him in the past days. It's just... describing my story just pulls everything up again, of course. So, it probably looks like — because I'm writing here — I'm constantly thinking about him or trying to fit him in the MLC stages, but I don't feel that way when I leave this forum. Sure, there are moments in which I think about him, and sometimes I obsess for a little bit, but I have post-its all over my home reminding me of: quiet — pursued — calm (I picked up those three words from Hearts Blessing to remind me of letting go and focus on my own life) and it works.

It's a delicate balance.  I often post on my own thread at my most conflicted. The mere act of sharing, putting something out there, it can help us see things from a slightly different angle. And posting has helped me to understand the crisis, as well as keep me on track in terms of caring for myself.

I actually feel okay, and it has been going on for several days now. I sleep okay. I eat okay. No issues focusing. I can read again (I'm a true book reader, but couldn't even finish one book in the past 2 months). But yeah, I'm, of course, also a bit wary of this state and feel like I'm a bit waiting for the next emotional wave to hit me.

Being with your feelings - allowing yourself to feel, that is important. Knowing that I will cycle, helped me too. My cycles come in bigger loops now. I notice this. I know bad phases will pass. I know to enjoy happy periods, and they will return.

[Baxter1]

Inanna,

First off sorry your here,and so sorry to hear your story. Also I think you’re doing great, it took me a couple of months to get back in a regular sleep pattern, the first couple of months NyQuil was my sleeping aid. Finding out about the Alienator has got to be hands down the worst, most painful and gut wrenching thing I’ve ever experienced. The pain, sadness, anger is just crushing. My BD was 3/23 and just knowing about it kills me. Just wanted to chime in and give you support, this is tough but looks like you’re tougher!

[Inanna]

Inanna,

First off sorry your here,and so sorry to hear your story. Also I think you’re doing great, it took me a couple of months to get back in a regular sleep pattern, the first couple of months NyQuil was my sleeping aid. Finding out about the Alienator has got to be hands down the worst, most painful and gut wrenching thing I’ve ever experienced. The pain, sadness, anger is just crushing. My BD was 3/23 and just knowing about it kills me. Just wanted to chime in and give you support, this is tough but looks like you’re tougher!

Aw, thank you so much, Baxter. And I'm so sorry that you had/have to go through this as well  Your BD isn't that long ago either. Wish you much love, courage and strength! We will get through this!

[Inanna]

It's a delicate balance.  I often post on my own thread at my most conflicted. The mere act of sharing, putting something out there, it can help us see things from a slightly different angle. And posting has helped me to understand the crisis, as well as keep me on track in terms of caring for myself.

Most definitely!
I was getting a bit confused. I love to share, and I know my story might help someone, just like your stories helped me. But it is a delicate balance, indeed. Especially when there are comments which state that I must be focusing too much on my H or the AP still, while I'm just sharing something because I have a moment of time to write something here on the forum. What I share is not always real-time experience or emotion, but reflecting on the past.

And yes, whenever I write on my blog, it feels therapeutic. I could easily do it just in my journal for no one to read, but writing it and knowing that someone might read and find it useful brings another flavor to the therapy of it all; that it's not in vain. Of course, on my blog, I write for myself first, and helping someone is second, a welcomed by-product 

Being with your feelings - allowing yourself to feel, that is important. Knowing that I will cycle, helped me too. My cycles come in bigger loops now. I notice this. I know bad phases will pass. I know to enjoy happy periods, and they will return.

I'm sure that with feeling okay now, there will be more moments of grief and anger coming. And yes, "this too shall pass" is one of my mantras these days.

Thanks, KayDee.

[Inanna]

Out of interest - accepting your point about posting creating a focus on the MLCer - what triggered your choice to post? What were/are you hoping to get by sharing your story here?

I shared a bit about my hopes in a previous reply. It feels therapeutic for me to share (that's why I also blog) and at the same time, it might help someone, like your stories helped me (and are still helping me, because I'm not done reading yet, hehe).

The things that get me confused are certain replies stating that I might be focusing too much on my H and/or the AP still. But after contemplating, I'm actually not at this point. What I write are reflections on the recent past, for emotional/mental processing with people who understand where I'm coming from. Of course, it isn't always comfortable, it does bring emotion to the surface and that can be quite hard, but I feel it's good because I want to feel all the feels and not avoid anything.

Maybe it's also important for whoever feels like replying to my story to not make assumptions. I do that too, sometimes, while we can never truly know what goes on in someone's head. Someone might be writing a whole piece about their H, but that doesn't mean they're obsessing about their H in that particular phase of their process. They might just be reflecting and processing. Like I'm doing most of the time...

[Inanna]

I'm having a really hard time today...
There are still feelings of inadequacy within me, a part of me that still wants to blame myself for what has happened, like I'm lacking something, and if I didn't, things would be different somehow.
I know that isn't true. I'm not perfect but there is nothing I could do to change things and make him not cheat on me and abandon me, or make him work at our relationship and marriage.

But today, I felt so stupid once again.

First, some background story: my husband told his parents about the affair the day after my birthday and 5 days before BD. They knew what he was doing and he prepared them for the fact that he would end things with me within a few weeks (but my intuition beat him to it 5 days later).

At BD, he told me that his mother was happy she was finally getting rid of me. And that his father just said: "If you're happy, I'm happy."

My FIL has terminal cancer. We got the diagnosis only a month before BD. It was a huge shock to all of us. I thought my FIL loved me very much but of course, he would support his son. My H is his only child.

But still, I wanted to somehow be there for my FIL until his passing and he seemed to appreciate it. I sent him birthday wishes in November and he even wished me courage and strength with my situation. I suggested to my H (when we still had contact) I would love to e.g. read to my FIL when he's too tired/ill to read himself, and my H told me that my FIL really appreciated the gesture but that he still felt good enough to read himself, but would think about me when the time comes he wouldn't be able to read anymore.

Today, I sent my FIL Christmas and New Year's wishes and asked again if I could help in any way, but I mentioned that due to the situation (almost NC with my H) and the fact that I currently needed people around me who hold my H accountable for his behavior, that I'm now a bit limited in what I can do for him, but that he could just ask and I'll try to do the best I can.

What my FIL sent back just shocked me.
First, he mentioned that it's not right that I didn't include my MIL in my message (my MIL is a covert passive-aggressive narcissist and never made it a secret that she didn't like me from day 1), that he supports my H 100% in everything he does, and that my message isn't exactly "peaceful" for this time of the year, and that he didn't expect me to reply. He signed with both his and my MIL's name.

Of course, I just fell down to the ground in tears. And after crying for a few minutes, this rage came up. I felt so so stupid to believe that this man would actually feel love toward me. Instead, he just stands behind my H, knowing what my H did. After 23 years? I just feel so stupid for believing that this man would actually care for me. How did I not see this coming? I would've never sent my message if I wasn't thinking he would appreciate it.

Maybe he had a bad day — he is very ill after all, although it's under control (but still, it's terminal — they just don't know how long he has). But then I started thinking... probably my H didn't tell them the truth, and probably, my H didn't tell me the truth either. I just went with the story my H told me about my FIL still caring for me and appreciating my gestures. But who knows...? I can't actually trust anything that comes out of my H's mouth, from long before BD.

Still... it really, really hurt to read that. I named the cheating, the deception, and the pain/trauma it caused me, and my FIL chose to ignore that by saying he supports my H 100% in everything he does. I never asked my FIL to choose sides because I know he will support his son, but at least, I expected some understanding and sympathy towards what I'm going through. That's all I ever wanted from my FIL, so that I could still be there for him during his illness. I was even planning on asking him if he wanted me to sing on his funeral, because I sang for both of his parents...

But now I think... stupid, stupid me. Why didn't I see it?
I'm not going to be part of his journey and his passing. I'm not going to be part of the funeral arrangements. I'm not going to be part of it all. 23 years of investing in these people... and what do I get? It's all about them and what they want and need. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree, I guess?

I was just having a more stable week without emotional drama due to the almost NC. And then this happens.
I'm so angry right now. And I'm angry with myself also. I know I need to forgive myself but really... in this moment, I could just slam my head against the wall. What was I thinking?

In my rage and pain, I just went ballistic to my H over Whatsapp.
I know... shouldn't have done that. But I did. I just text-shouted and -screamed at him for causing all this pain, saying they deserve each other (he and his FOO). Poor guy didn't know what was going on but texted back that he was on his way to his parents. Well... I told him. Now they can all have a nice conversation about it over pre-Christmas dinner.

Anyway... my intention now is to go back into almost-NC and let him take the initiative again (which he does not seem to do — it's just silence). Yeah... I made the mistake of contacting him today after what my FIL pulled off. I hope I can just let it be now and focus again on myself instead.

Even though it felt like a hard slap in my face with my FIL reacting like that, there is some relief also that I don't have to worry about my family-in-law. It's clear now. So, another few people were removed from the list today. Good riddance, I guess.

But it still hurts like hell. This isn't the life I imagined to have. It's hard to look back on my relationship with H now and still see the positive/beautiful aspects. I know those memories will come back but at this time, I can only see the chaos and ruins of it all, in-laws included.

It's not all misery, though. I was able to restore some of the mutual friendships. Went to a play last Wednesday and met a friend who said: "If my husband were to pull something like that, I would immediately kick him to the curb." I appreciated her outrage. She's genuinely concerned about the both of us, though. But most didn't survive as people just keep on enabling him and I can't have it. I don't ask from anyone to take sides but I do expect friends to call out and disapprove of his behavior, but some people who call themselves "friends" choose to ignore it instead, which, in my book, isn't friendship at all, not to me, not to my H.

It's such a complicated and delicate situation, these days, with the people around us... pfff...
It is what it is...

Back to business again. Detaching, self-care, and getting through these difficult days (because I'll be alone on Christmas Eve and New Year's Eve for the first time in my life but fortunately, will see my family on Christmas Day and New Year's Day).

And hurray... the days are getting longer again, we're past Winter Solstice!

[Treasur]

I am very, very sorry that this happened.
You are not alone here in having in-laws that you genuinely believed cared about you in your own right behave in ways post BD that suggest that isn’t as true as you thought. Friends too.

One can explain these responses of course, just as you have done, but without excusing them. It is deeply disappointing when people are unable or unwilling to show empathy and compassion for you….it is not uncommon here, but still gut-punch disappointing. It tends to say more about their own coping strategies with difficult things than saying anything at all about you. I think you know that and that is good but it is still another kind of loss, isn’t it?

Most LBS find that this experience rips some old lenses from our eyes about how the world works, and how we work in the world, whether we like it or not. Having to accept the reality we see without finding it acceptable to us, right?

It can feel a bit - at least initially - like finding out that Santa isn’t real  But - and it’s an important But imho - it teaches us to find our natural tribe and be deeply grateful for them, whatever form that takes, while winnowing out our own version of a graceful Acceotance of other peoples limits and choices that exclude them for being part of our natural tribe. (Although I think it’s natural to feel that this is terribly unfair and unjust somehow, at least for a while)

Imho you’re not stupid, you just assumed as we humans tend to do, that most people think a lot like we do and will respond a bit like we would in similar circumstances. And it feels like another betrayal, doesn’t it? But, as you wisely say, it is what it is.

I’m sorry - understandable though it is - that you reacted in the moment by Whatsappi ng your h. Having said that, please be reassured that in the greater scheme of things, it changes nothing in either a positive or negative way. Think of it as an emotional burp lol. What I’d suggest though is that you set yourself a rule of 3 guideline from here on….doing nothing when your emotions are running hot….its the difference between reacting (usually not so helpful) and responding. It’s also where your own power and control lie  You might find it helpful to come here first, go aaargh, say what you’re thinking about doing and let the rest of us chip in with our collective spare brains? Sometimes we all need to borrow a bit of spare brain 

I hope that Christmas has pockets of things that please you, dear girl.
And just like the Winter Solstice reminds us, this time too shall pass - no matter how hard it is right now - and there will be a Spring even if you can’t quite see what it looks like yet.

[Inanna]

Thank you, Treasur. And I appreciate the great advice. I'll make a mental note to come to this forum first before taking any other action when something like this happens.

It is indeed so hard to accept a reality like this. It's so hard not to think that after 23 years of thinking something different, it must be me who is going insane. But I see that it's not me. It's "them." Something in me still wants to give "them" the benefit of the doubt. "Them," I mean, my H foremost. But he comes as a package, it seems.

It's reassuring, indeed, to read that no matter what I do or how I react, it doesn't change anything.
I don't like what I see from myself, though. It is truly an emotional reaction, a trauma response. I'm usually not like this. I've hardly ever been like this, not even in my teenage years, even though I had emotional reactions and trauma responses before. This is so different from anything I've ever experienced in life... it feels so... I don't know... primal? Like I'm fighting to survive while I know I should actually be thriving in this stage of my life.

I'm going to work on being extra gentle with myself in the coming week with Christmas and New Year. Boy, this is all so hard. So thankful for Kenda-Ruth's work and this forum with all of your support.

[Treasur]

Imho it IS a trauma response probably.
And the good thing about that is that it is like a coat you are temporarily wearing.,,,it doesn’t define who you are or will be. But traumatised brains throw up some weird stuff, so forewarned is forearmed and  gently slowing your roll is perfect for traumatised brains.

[marvin4242]

I felt so so stupid to believe that this man would actually feel love toward me. Instead, he just stands behind my H, knowing what my H did. After 23 years? I just feel so stupid for believing that this man would actually care for me. How did I not see this coming? I would've never sent my message if I wasn't thinking he would appreciate it.

Maybe he had a bad day — he is very ill after all, although it's under control (but still, it's terminal — they just don't know how long he has). But then I started thinking... probably my H didn't tell them the truth, and probably, my H didn't tell me the truth either. I just went with the story my H told me about my FIL still caring for me and appreciating my gestures. But who knows...? I can't actually trust anything that comes out of my H's mouth, from long before BD.

Still... it really, really hurt to read that. I named the cheating, the deception, and the pain/trauma it caused me, and my FIL chose to ignore that by saying he supports my H 100% in everything he does. I never asked my FIL to choose sides because I know he will support his son, but at least, I expected some understanding and sympathy towards what I'm going through. That's all I ever wanted from my FIL, so that I could still be there for him during his illness. I was even planning on asking him if he wanted me to sing on his funeral, because I sang for both of his parents...

First, I’d like to say I’m really sorry you find yourself in this spot. It is incredibly difficult and I’m sure disappointing and disheartening. I feel I need to point out two important things that may help you.

The first one is the same thing you’ve probably have heard over and over again. It is not reasonable nor productive to expect the family of your spouse to take your side or even in anyway be there for you. Yes, there are some exceptions on this forum but it’s not the norm. Whether we like it or not, when are forcing them to choose when we share our pain and problems by mentioning their children’s disordered behavior We are putting them in a difficult spot and making them responsible for our pain and their children’s pain.

The second one is a delicate topic and please do not read it in any way as discounting how you feel. We’ve all been there and it is a horrible feeling, a lot of pain confusion, and we need to really focus on ourselves to try to survive. Sometimes it feels like we are dying. Having said that your father-in-law is facing the ultimate challenge, actual death. I have no idea how he’s dealing with it, where he is in the acceptance process, but in my personal view when someone is facing death, barring very few circumstances, the focus needs to be on them. I am sure that was not at all your intent, and you wanted to be there for him but your note stating what you cannot do in a way may have shifted focus back away from whatever he is going through.

So for your sake and in a way for his sake you should not engaging them or include them in what is going on. That means you may not have any relationship with them. It is an unfortunate reality.

[Inanna]

Imho it IS a trauma response probably.
And the good thing about that is that it is like a coat you are temporarily wearing.,,,it doesn’t define who you are or will be. But traumatised brains throw up some weird stuff, so forewarned is forearmed and  gently slowing your roll is perfect for traumatised brains.

There is something strangely familiar about my trauma response. And it is really scary to look at.
It actually throws me back to my childhood in which I was fighting for my mother's love, or at least: visible/tangible signs of her love for me. She was emotionally quite unavailable, she was too young to be a mother, and my father was away all the time to provide for us.

I remember this horrible feeling of not being sure I was loved and I don't have any memories about how I acted when I felt this uncertainty, but I can imagine myself crying and pleading in a way babies do when they feel distressed.

My parents recently told me that I was a quiet and "nice" kid. But that was after being a baby. I feel like I was hanging on an emotional thread when I was a baby and by the time I was a toddler or young child, I already had coping mechanisms in place as I understood very early on that by being the quiet, non-demanding kid, I could get something from my mother. I feel like my mother was overwhelmed since the day she found out about the pregnancy.

Now, with my MLCer, I have this same dynamic. When there are no visible/tangible signs of his love for me, there's a buildup inside of me, and with the next trigger, it explodes! I become that baby who can only express through crying, and there are different ways of crying: sadness and distress. But as an adult, of course, through my crying in distress, the cry becomes lashing out in anger with words. I'm not a baby anymore, but emotionally, it feels like that.

I often have recurring dreams of not being heard and seen when I'm distressed. Throughout my life, I have failed quite a lot in having people around me understand that I'm distressed or in stress. It's like I always have to repeat myself (and then being called a "nag" or "party pooper"). I know how it feels when you have to deal with being distressed all by yourself even when around other people.

I can see that I always surrounded myself with mostly emotionally unavailable people. Even when there were emotionally available people around, I would focus on those who were not, like only those who existed and needed to hear/see me.
I lost friendships because I couldn't see what I did have, and people just stopped trying after a while.

Not to say that my husband stopped trying, no, he is one of the emotionally unavailable people in my life in that sense that I was there for him emotionally, always, but when I needed emotional support from him, he didn't seem to have a way to deal with that. Even when I was sick, it was like he was irritated with me, like I was doing it on purpose. At least, my mother would care for me when I was sick, like I would care for my H when he was sick, but he couldn't do the same for me.

The interesting thing is that I learned to regulate my emotions and nervous system in the past years because I was diagnosed with an anxiety disorder back in 2014 and have had years of therapy and work on myself, shadow work even, since then. Before BD, I felt very confident about taking care of myself emotionally, while my H seemed to be the one who was struggling, but he didn't allow me to help (after BD, he told me that he was scared of my inner strength, by the way).

I think we became emotionally incompatible and BD was the wake-up call I needed to understand that I deserve someone who is able to be emotionally open with me. I don't know if my H will ever be. It's not that he really was before this all happened.

Having almost NC for a little while and now this huge trigger with my FIL helps me realize that it's better for me to just let go of all those people who don't fit into my life anymore because I've changed. I need to focus on the present and future instead of holding on to the past that isn't fitting for me anymore.

My R with my H gave me the space to transform from a victim of CEN into an emotionally mature and thriving person. I was at a high before BD when it came to my self-esteem and sense of self-worth. Even though my H was sliding into that depression, emotionally, it was my best year so far.

Of course, BD was traumatic... And grieving for a 23-year relationship is not an easy thing to do.
But what if this is actually the best thing that could happen to me right now? I more and more see that it was inevitable. And the question is if my H and I will ever reconcile because... will he ever be the man that I need/deserve?

In the first months after BD, it was impossible to think about not reconciling. I really needed the whole MLC concept/theory to get through these first months. But now... I don't know. He just doesn't seem to be the man who could ever be emotionally open enough for me so that we could both thrive together. It might be so that he needs other things now, because I've grown into a person who's just not right for him anymore, and I cannot compromise what I've gained within myself. I cannot lower the bar or go back to where he felt "safe" with me.

I need to get through this... the trauma, the grieving process... and I need to let go of my CEN trauma from the past, which I was in the process of doing. I need to let go of the H I knew because it's no longer fitting for me. We would make each other miserable if we tried. And I can't see my H changing into the man I need and deserve. Maybe, someday, who knows, but maybe it is more realistic to just let go and after I healed from this ordeal, to open myself up to a man who's more my equal in this equation.

If I hold on or go back, I'll just attract more of the same misery. And I'm done with that now. I really am.

[Inanna]

The second one is a delicate topic and please do not read it in any way as discounting how you feel. We’ve all been there and it is a horrible feeling, a lot of pain confusion, and we need to really focus on ourselves to try to survive. Sometimes it feels like we are dying. Having said that your father-in-law is facing the ultimate challenge, actual death. I have no idea how he’s dealing with it, where he is in the acceptance process, but in my personal view when someone is facing death, barring very few circumstances, the focus needs to be on them. I am sure that was not at all your intent, and you wanted to be there for him but your note stating what you cannot do in a way may have shifted focus back away from whatever he is going through.

It is really hard to read, indeed, but you are right.
I've never experienced a death so close to me and in this way.
It wasn't right of me to expect support from him while he is in the last stage of his life, indeed. I totally didn't think of that.
I need to accept that my last goodbyes were when I last saw him in September, before BD, and that I'm already mourning a man who isn't even dead yet because at this time, I can't have a relationship with him due to what my H did. My FIL needs to spend the time he has left with his only child and be able to leave this Earth the way he wants to.
I've sent a short message to my H to have him forward my apologies to my FIL.

[marvin4242]

It is really hard to read, indeed, but you are right.
I've never experienced a death so close to me and in this way.
It wasn't right of me to expect support from him while he is in the last stage of his life, indeed. I totally didn't think of that.
I need to accept that my last goodbyes were when I last saw him in September, before BD, and that I'm already mourning a man who isn't even dead yet because at this time, I can't have a relationship with him due to what my H did. My FIL needs to spend the time he has left with his only child and be able to leave this Earth the way he wants to.
I've sent a short message to my H to have him forward my apologies to my FIL.

I am so glad you heard it the way it was intended. I really totally understand how you feel and how hard it is. Its loss compounded on loss.

I am curious why not send the message directly to your FIL and MIL? I only say that because your H is not a good or accurate conduit, they may appreciate hearing it directly from you.

[Inanna]

I am curious why not send the message directly to your FIL and MIL? I only say that because your H is not a good or accurate conduit, they may appreciate hearing it directly from you.

I know... I was in doubt at first. But my FIL specifically asked me to not contact him again and to leave the family in peace. So, I feel obliged to give the message through my H and yes, there's a chance that he won't forward the message (properly). So be it 

[Inanna]

When I was in church this morning, I received a long text from my H after that whole FIL situation yesterday. He added way more than just his response to the FIL situation... responding to things I e-mailed him months ago, in the first weeks after BD. I'll translate the best I can (in italic are my additional comments):

"Inanna" (obviously, I'm not using my real name, but he used my nickname for the first time since BD),
A long message for you.
I was really startled by the way you started sending me messages yesterday (my rant about his FIL). Without a trigger from me, out of the blue. I sincerely didn't know what happened.
I can certainly not vouch for what my father replied; that is not my responsibility. But then to say that my father is a toxic person, I really didn't enjoy reading that. I don't think he is because he chooses me. But alright, I can see what happened there. And I don't blame you. So let's put that behind us. I will forward your apology to him.
The reason why I didn't respond yesterday is because you once taught me not to react from my emotions. So, I slept on it.
But there are a few things that I want to share with you.

It was a very heavy week for me. On Monday and Tuesday, I was in B. (the city where he works) and I came home with a cold. Wednesday to the vet, and I had to bite through and wear a face mask. Friday to the medical check-up with my dad: everything is okay. I'm glad I feel better now and that next week will be less busy.

The reason why I haven't seen the dogs is that I'm scared of the aftermath. Probably unjustly but I do feel the fear. Every time I send you something or when I see you, I sometimes get really unpleasant messages from you. Like yesterday. And again, I can understand that you're mad; I would be too. But I find it unpleasant.
So, I'm avoiding that at the cost of myself and the dogs; I do miss them though. And again: I don't blame you because I understand you're feeling anger and grief and I understand you need to express that. But I'm trying to trigger as little as possible. And not sending anything isn't good either.

Mentally, I'm doing really good. And physically as well now. I don't have depression or any signs of depression. I discussed that in detail with my therapist and the supervision therapist of the group therapy. Both are independently agreeing that I don't have depression. So, I would appreciate it if you stopped pointing in that direction. I get that that is your truth and I respect that, but I'm truly doing okay. (He stated a few weeks ago that he did have depression before BD, but that seems to be all solved now — never mind the limerence.) And I promise you and promised you many times before that I will let you know if anything changes.

Both therapists agreed that the way that I ended our relationship was not okay. But they also both said that this is often the only way for someone to leave. And they both say that they can see that I truly regret that I didn't have a conversation earlier with you about how I wasn't happy. But that is about me and not about you or us. And yes, I made my choice and I'll stick to it and it won't change. I understand that that is really hard for you, almost impossible. But from both therapists, I needed to make that clear to you. That I do recognize your pain, anger, and sadness. And that I'm the only cause of that, only me.
At the same time, I told both of my therapists that I admire the way you handle this. And that is not a lie but the truth.

I continue to go to the therapist and I continue working on myself. Although, now and then it also feels good to vent. 
It may sound weird and maybe you don't believe it and I can't blame you, but I do want to wish you a merry Christmas and a nice end of the year.

Why am I posting this here? Well, I'm taking the advice to come here first, to prevent myself from reacting to him.
I don't know what to make of it. Do you?

I feel like saying: whatever you say, dude.
But I'm not planning on replying.
I read the words but the person who wrote them, I don't recognize. To me, it sounds like a small kid who needed to be taken by the hand by his therapists to make sure I would believe it's all okay, everything is okay, he's okay, and so I need to be okay, too. And it's all about him and how he feels and what he does with what happened, of course  Because yeah... he's Mr. Nice Guy even when he makes mistakes or does wrong. I should be lucky with a guy like that. Everyone forgave him and so should I. Because yeah... "it is often the only way for someone to leave a relationship." So, I guess, that's that for him. And so it should be okay for me, too, right? 

[Treasur]

Please do not reply.
Why? Your emotions are probably running hot, understandably. And you doubtless feel a terrible urge to defend yourself and argue with what he says. But, most importantly, it will not change the situation and it will not help you feel better for more than about 5 minutes.

Regardless of the reasons and how it was done, you have been betrayed and discarded. That’s a truly horrible feeling and probably worse at this time of year. Do whatever you need to do to comfort yourself, as if you were a small child or a wounded animal. Tuck his email away, don’t look at it again for a few days/weeks/months. Take his words at face value, act accordingly and grieve your losses…..but accept it as his current truth not your truth. If it changes, you’ll know. If it doesn’t, you will find your own way to move forward regardless.

Fwiw - and he writes more cogently than most MLCers lol - I would summarise his message as I wasn’t happy and this was the easiest way for me to deal with it, and I avoid difficult things as much as I can….

More articulate than most but the core message is much the same as the standard MLC playbook imho….avoidance, a magic external happy fix, me me and my terrible cold, some grown ups said I had no choice, the problem is less what I did and more your reaction to what I did,  I care but not enough that it really hurts me to hurt you….

It’s a big note of self-justification, no more and no less, and he feels interestingly entitled to you paying attention to what he wants to ‘share’ while doubtless being sublimely uninterested in listening to anything you might want to share, right?
Pfft to him and his wordy words 

Take him at his word. Let him lie in the bed he has made. Reduce contact as much as you can. There is no question here requiring your answer….do not reply. Nothing useful to be done with anyone who lacks this much empathy imho.

Hug from here x

[Inanna]

Thank you, Treasur, for taking the time to reply. Very interesting also to have an outsider's perspective.
Let this be my accountability: I will not reply 

[Treasur]

Thank you, Treasur, for taking the time to reply. Very interesting also to have an outsider's perspective.
Let this be my accountability: I will not reply 

Reducing contact is not a magic fix and it’s ok to change your mind as events unfold too.

But for now i would give yourself the Christmas gift of a break from drama, chaos and the confusion that tends to come with interaction at this stage. Breathe. Enjoy some small pleasures that have nothing to do with your h. Count any blessings that you can in the spirit of the season. X

[Inanna]

Little update... I haven't replied to my H's long message.
It does cross my mind from time to time, and my mind seems to want to "rehearse" what I would like to say in response, but I always seem to conclude that it's better not to reply and just leave it be for now. There's nothing I can say, I feel, that would make any difference at this time, so why bother?

I just practice GAL at this time — spent a wonderful day with family yesterday, and I'm now having a few calm days to rest and spend more time with my animals and do some household chores because I've been away a lot in the past week. And apart from GAL, it's an interesting "experiment" to just be silent. This is actually the very first time I haven't responded to one of his messages yet, so it's new to me and it's new to him, too.

And you're right, Treasur, this is really not the time either. I want to stay in the positive energy of the Holidays for now. It's definitely doing me a lot of good, even though it was a little challenging coming home from church on Christmas Eve and spending the evening on my own. And I'll probably do the same on New Year's Eve (spending time with my family on New Year's Day, though) — my therapist told me to maybe do a little "letting go/detachment" ritual that evening because of the nature of that day, before going into the New Year celebrations. I'm thinking about it now — maybe write some things I want to let go of on little papers and burn them in the fire pit outside and enjoy some time by the fire; maybe even invite my neighbors to toast on the New Year, as they are also supporting me on my journey.

Interesting is that I have a lot less stress with not having my H around. Of course, the trauma and grieving process did add an extreme amount of emotional stress in the past months, but apart from that, living on my own with the animals — although it's a lot of work — I do feel more at ease, more "myself," and there's a lot less stress of having to consider my H's wants and needs, which have been rather extreme and selfish in the past years (probably due to the fog and depression coming up).

[Inanna]

I just wanted to add that Standing feels a lot like GAL right now.
Due to detaching more, I got confused about whether I was still Standing or not, but now I see that Standing also means that you GAL and carry on without focusing or worrying too much about H and what might be in the future. I know I don't have to make that decision yet. The person my H is right now is not the person I want to be married to. So, I just go about my life and the way I Stand now is not about my H or my marriage, but about me GAL. And that feels actually good, correct, natural at this time.

[Inanna]

My MLCman was sending a few practical e-mails (accountancy and stuff) this afternoon (I won't make assumptions, but he might have been checking in to see if I'm still alive after not answering his message from a few days ago, hehe, because I usually ALWAYS respond and quite quickly) with some questions. My usual auto-pilot reaction would be to immediately reply, but I'm holding myself back for now... it's nothing urgent or needs to be handled right away. So, I'm just taking a day or so to reply when I feel like it. I'll be brief, business-like, but friendly 
And of course, I actually have other things to do now than jump up every time he bursts into my inbox. This is my new and improved LBS attitude 

[Reinventing]

This is my new and improved LBS attitude.

You sound good and these strategies will help you when there are more emotionally charged communications. So it's nice to practice a change in pace with things are are more routine.

[Evermore]

This is my new and improved LBS attitude.

You sound good and these strategies will help you when there are more emotionally charged communications. So it's nice to practice a change in pace with things are are more routine.

I agree you sound good! Love your attitude.

[Inanna]

Thank you, Reinventing & Evermore 
I actually have to give a lot of credit to Acorn !!!
I'm in the process of reading her entire thread (I'm now in part 8 of her journey) and truly felt inspired by her amazing attitude, mastery of detachment, and self-reflection 

[Inanna]

Thought this was going to be a very boring thread with just me detaching and him more like a touch-and-go these days...
But... I was reading some of our old conversations, because I have been printing everything in case I would need it during divorce mediation (more if he would send a lawyer)... and I just discovered that my H recently slipped up. I caught him lying!
He has always said that the AP's relationship ended before the affair even though she still had to divorce him. Now I know, due to his slip-up that I didn't catch the first time I read it, that her husband is in the same boat as me! They both decided that their marriages were over before he (her H) and I knew about it!!!

This may sound weird but this feels actually like a relief (although I really feel for her H, also because they have children together) because I now have confirmation that my intuition was right once again and he has been lying the whole time.
It feels like a relief because it validates the fact that I'm the one who has all the clarity and he's the one in the fog.

I know it isn't much but detaching has been going well these past days. And this has not thrown me off at all. On the contrary, it's just sad to see him like this but it is not my problem. He will have to deal with that, look at himself in the mirror, sleep at night.

My sleep has been wonderfully improving in the past week. I even slept through the night last night, which hasn't happened in a very long time (unless I would take a sleeping pill that completely knocks me out, but that's a different kind of "sleeping through the night").

I don't know what it is but I feel empowered lately, even though I still have moments of grief and anger. "This, too, shall pass" is my mantra and I don't feel like I'm a victim anymore: I feel very confident about this life on my own for now, that I will thrive again and have many moments of joy. I already have moments of joy, and sometimes I think: wow, am I over him already? But I know it's a process, not a straight line.

I still love him but at this time, I'm at peace with a life without him. I think I'm still Standing but I'm Standing more for my own life and my integrity now than for a reconciliation. Time will tell what it is going to be and I'm not attached to any outcome other than foremost, my own thriving.

Wish you all a wonderful end of the year 🙏🏻

[Reinventing]

It feels like a relief because it validates the fact that I'm the one who has all the clarity and he's the one in the fog.

Yes, after so much turbulence and realizing lies from before BD, during BD and after BD, it does feel good to know that you're not crazy, something was wrong, and that you can figure things out with time.

I totally get this, while also feeling sorry for her H and the children.

[Inanna]

Thank you for your response, Reinventing.
Feels good to get that confirmation that I'm not crazy, hehe...

—

Reasons why I'm sometimes conflicted if my H is actually in MLC:

* he doesn't seem to spend money — he actually spends a lot less than pre-MLC;
* he wants me to have what I need to continue my life without losing too much of my usual life standard — he recently agreed on one of my financial proposals for the next 5 to 10 years (still has to be finalized in divorce settlement, though);
* he wants to continue working together in our business (where we both have our separate occupations) for a number of years, so that I can keep my steady income;
* he seems to have no issues keeping his mask of "normality" on at work, with friends, with family — I'm the only one witnessing his craziness and selfishness, apart from people knowing about the affair (which in his mind is a relationship because in his mind, he ended our relationship — okay, that's more like MLC, lol);
* he asked me today if he can get our oldest dog (his best buddy) to go for a walk on the beach tomorrow — and this is the first time he asks to spend time with one of the dogs since BD (and even since beginning of MLC, because he didn't pay much attention to the animals anymore when he was sliding into depression);
* he seems to have moments of clarity, is still very clear about not wanting to be with me but he doesn't blame me for his unhappiness in our relationship (anymore; there were signs of that in the beginning but he seems to hold his peace now — or is that because I don't discuss M/R anymore?) — sometimes I wonder if he truly felt like he wasn't in love with me anymore and wanted out for a very long time but just didn't have the emotional maturity to do so: is that MLC?

Yet, there are so many other signs that are so typically script MLC.

I'm concluding for myself that it doesn't really matter whether he's in MLC or not. It's his life. His decisions and choices. His process of whatever. And the only thing I can do anyway is detaching and GAL for myself, find joy and happiness, and live a fulfilled life, no matter if he's part of it or not, no matter if I stay alone or find someone new in the future.

MLC just makes it a little easier to let go of the pain of how he treated me and still treats me (because I'm still very low on his priority list in life, which really hurts, after being "my person" for 23 years), but it isn't essential for my healing and thriving.

On the other hand, I do often wonder if it is the limerence that he's in at this time that adds some kind of veil, and, if he wouldn't have been in limerence, he would be monstering a lot more because of feeling depressed and frustrated and wanting an escape. Now, he has the escape and it's all wonderful and he doesn't really need to hate me, I sometimes think, but when he's confronted with himself and what he is doing and trying to escape, maybe that's when he's truly projecting all the ugliness on me like he probably did during those years in depression before Escape & Avoid really hit.

Because, how he treated me and how I felt in his presence before Replay hit was awful. I felt worthless, I was constantly second-guessing my own intuition and awareness, I even felt depressed, not knowing where that came from, and it felt like nothing what I did was ever good for him.

I still felt like that when he was already in Replay, having the affair, because he was probably frustrated that I was still there while he just wanted to live his fantasy life. But now that he IS living his fantasy life, he seems to be a lot "nicer" to me, apart from the child parts that come up from time to time that get frustrated with me trying to hang on to him and our M/R. But now that I'm not holding on anymore and am emotionally detaching more and more, he seems to be more content and even wants to take out our dog for a walk — what are the odds, right?

Still, there is this big elephant in the room: the betrayal, the cheating, the lying, the fact that he is probably really scared, deep inside, that the affair with the AP might fail and that he will end up alone. Don't know, it's an assumption based on how well I know my H combined with what stories and experiences I've read about MLC from MLCers and LBSers.

It's interesting stuff... Only time will tell.
I try to approach it like a psychological case study, lol.
To be continued...

[Nas]

“MLC just makes it a little easier to let go of the pain of how he treated me and still treats me”

It does. On the other hand, it’s a little bit like putting a Band-Aid on a melanoma and just hoping it heals. in order to actually heal, we can’t just cover it up and pretend it’s not there… the pain, I mean. it does hurt to be rejected especially after so many years, by someone who knows everything about you. Sitting with that pain is excruciating. But it will still be excruciating, probably more so, way down the road if you try to explain it away (MLC, Limerence) and then none of those reasons lead to him turning back towards you. I know they say time heals, and to be honest I kind of scoff at that because I think deliberate, purposeful healing heals. Time can lessen the pain, or it can just prolong it depending on what we do with that time.

The other thing I would just want to encourage you to take a step back and look at is your statement about the way he is “still treating you.“ Because you just laid out a whole bunch of reasons why it might not be MLC and those reasons were that he is not treating you badly, he’s not blaming you, he isn’t trying to be unfair with finances etc. i’ve said this before but sometimes we continue to feel like they are treating us badly when they are really just acting indifferent, which is so hard to accept from a person who has been our go to person. When they’re not treating us the way they used to, it feels so bad, therefore we say they are treating us badly. It also helps us to feel like they are still connected to us, like they are actively doing something to us, treating us badly - in a strange way, believing they are actively treating us badly feels better than not being considered by them at all. Because treating us badly at least means they’re interacting with us, we’re on their mind, we are still part of their inner and outer world.
Just something to think about, is he treating you badly or do you feel bad? Because feeling bad is normal, and very justified, and actually feeling it and calling it what it is will make it easier to heal from it.

Edit to add: of course someone having an affair is treating their spouse badly and with disrespect. It’s completely unacceptable. My statement is about ongoing bad treatment and compounding deception. And again, sample of one, and you don’t have to listen to me, I’m just presenting one possible lens.

[Helpnewc]

NAS,

I think that is a good point. I often think my MLCernis treating me badly but she is just not being loving towards me. I just want that so much that I see indifference as bad.

It is just no fun. I think. We can name it.

Thank you

[Inanna]

Good points, Nas.
You're right. It is indifference for most of it. But also lies. I caught him lying again quite recently. Although, one would call that lying to themselves to justify behavior, and therefore, also lying to others. So yeah... what is it, right?
It's not treating me badly like he did during our R with the withdrawing, the monstering, and the betrayal/cheating. It is different now.

[Inanna]

He just monstered at me.
He was coming by to pick up the dog. I thought I would be strong enough this time. We never really had a fight f2f, only via phone.
But the first thing he asked when he came in was: "how are you?"
And I didn't have an answer. And so I asked him: "Did you still want to tell me something?"
Because a while ago, he sent me an e-mail that he wanted to talk to me about something, but I wasn't sure whether I wanted that or was ready for.

Capital mistakes.
Because his response was: "Wel, I don't know, because every time I speak to you or see you, you end up sending me these nasty messages afterwards."

And I just blew up.
And we had that stupid R conversation again.
That he just felt I didn't do anything to make his life easier, even though he shared with me how stressful it was to be the sole provider.
But that's not what I recall.

I recall that he kept telling me that he wanted to give me all the space to find my passion and build a career. And I worked so hard to get some place but it didn't work out most of the time.

But apparently, I should've taken his stress as a signal that I needed to step up and find a fulltime job and make sure he could stay home for six months or so.
Which is something he NEVER asked me, NEVER told me, NEVER said to me how much he was struggling with it.

It's like someone accessed his mind and told him that I was just lazy or unwilling or that I should've come up with a plan myself, sacrifice myself, because I should've known how much he was struggling, and I must have been this awful person who just profited from a nice man who wanted to do everything for me, but had a wife who didn't want to do everything for him.

"And this is exactly why I didn't ask about the dogs. Because I knew this would happen. Not because I don't care about them."
That. Now it's also my fault that he can't see the dogs because I can't keep it together. I'm to blame for everything, apparently.

WHAT IS THIS?

This is the first time that I actually SAW him monstering right in my face.
And I just lost it. Completely.

The monster was always contained within phone calls, which I have stopped having many weeks ago, because I knew it was monster and that it was just not getting anywhere.
And then the monster was only visible in texts and e-mails because his writing style would change and he would get very impatient, and so I went "dark" earlier this month.

And now this?

My God... I was just about to reply to more of what you were saying, Nas, and how I probably mis-interpreted his current behavior to be "bad" because I just have so much pain, like Helpnewc wrote, with his indifferent behavior while I'm still mourning the loving and caring person he was to me before MLC, and how I can't expect him to be that person anymore, because we're not in a relationship anymore.

But now... after meeting monster for the first time f2f... I don't know.
He really doesn't seem to be himself, or... I missed a lot during our marriage.

The only guess I can take is that he seemed to have hid so much from me, about how he felt in the past years, about our relationship, about me, which is exactly script MLC and the upcoming depression he eventually ran away from.

He yelled at me at a certain point: "What do you expect from me?"

And I couldn't answer.
And then he just went on monstering.

And then, at the end, I just said: "What I expect from you? Well, I don't know. Because I have never done something like you did to me. I've never experienced something like this before. There isn't anything within me that can actually get to that place of knowing what one should do after doing something like that to another person. How can I possibly know? I don't do that to other people. So, you tell me what you think you should do after you did something like that. What would actually be appropriate? Because, this ain't it. Maybe ask your two wonderful therapists; maybe they know."

And I concluded, this time to his face, that we can't see each other like this anymore. NC.

I went into the kitchen, and he just gathered the dog and left.
And I cried so hard... I'm still crying.

I don't know how to move forward honestly. I'm okay when I don't have to deal with him...

I so thought I was detached enough to be able to keep it together after we haven't seen each other for so long. But I didn't expect the "How are you?" question. At all. He never asked that question since the first weeks after BD when I was still so much in shock.

This is the man I will have to deal with for the next 5 to 10 years of still working together in the business to keep my steady income, until the dogs passed away and I can finally move and have my own place? This is the man I need to go through divorce mediation with?

I thought he just made a mistake and is emotionally immature, but now has learned his lesson.
But as it seems, he still can't be honest with himself, he still re-writes our marriage, and he still monsters.
And I thought he wasn't blaming me. He said it was not about me, in his last long message. But he does blame me. And in his head, it's about me. He projects so much on me; his whole incapability of asking for what he needs, for sharing what he feels. It only comes out in monster when he feels trapped, frustrated, or backed against the wall.

And of course, that's all my fault because I can't keep it together when he's around. He puts that all on me.
If I was able to just be "normal" even though he acknowledged that I can't because of the pain and he understands, and he even congratulates me for how "well" I'm handling everything (mixed messages, WTF?), at the same time, it's all my fault that he needs to say all these things.

Boy, I was ready to let go the whole MLC thing, because I thought, maybe that isn't it... but surely, it is it.
But of course, it doesn't change anything. MLC or not, I need to detach asap, the best that I can, and move forward. I think meeting monster f2f is definitely motivating me even more to do so.

But it hurts. It hurts so much. It's excruciating to see him like this.
And I don't know if there is still an ounce of the old him somewhere in there. I can't really see it. He looks the same, it's his voice, but not his words, not his actions.
I just can't believe this is who he is right now. It's 180 degrees from who he was.
I would give anything to see the old him again... but he's gone. He's long gone.

Then again, I was feeling so much better in the past weeks, so even though this is a step backwards, I know there's a lot of progression, too.
But it frustrates me to see myself in this way. This is not me. This is just the pain and the trauma and the cycling back and forth because I've lost the ground beneath my feet and I'm rebalancing.
This sucks so much. Unbelievable. But yet, I have to believe in myself, and my integrity is still intact. This is not on me. I did the best I could during our R/M and gave more than probably anyone would. He just failed to share and be emotionally mature about it. He obviously has issues with speaking his mind, probably out of fear of rejection. I don't know. It's not my trip. He needs to find that out for himself. I have my own journey now.

I just want to type a huge curse word right now, but I won't. But I'm thinking it. I'm yelling it in my mind.
No words to describe what I feel right now.

[Reinventing]

It is hard to find the words. I let out sounds I'd never made before or since. The pain is indescribable.

This sucks so much. Unbelievable. But yet, I have to believe in myself, and my integrity is still intact. This is not on me.

That is correct. Believe in yourself. Learn what helps you heal. It's not a straight path, but you will get there. You won't always feel this way. It does get better.

[Inanna]

I actually had signs before he came. My blood pressure was rising, I had red cheeks, and I felt anger. I tried to let it go by moving, punching, screaming in a pillow.
I had that the last time I saw him (but that has been a while ago). My blood pressure was up but I only found out the day after. After some stress release exercises, I felt better.

But now, I was aware before he came, what impact it already had on me.
And I sincerely thought I was ready to just do the "exchange," just be friendly and business-like.

Stupid "how are you" question. D'oh.
Feels like being emotionally ambushed, lol. But I'm sure he didn't mean it in that way. He was just being friendly.

And now, of course, he has another confirmation of why he needed to leave our marriage. Although we never had fights like this. Ever. We sometimes blew off steam and would talk about it afterward. Never parted or went to bed before it was reconciled.

This is a whole different dynamic. It's nothing like we had during our marriage.
Of course, the betrayal, pain, and trauma are now also part of it.

But something in me is also glad this happened because now I can see more clearly that it is not about me. I can see even more clearly that he is definitely struggling with something I never had a problem with before: sharing and talking about feelings, asking for what you truly need, and being emotionally vulnerable with each other.

He's working on it, is what he told me since BD. Of course, he's working on it, but he chose to have a new relationship before having learned these lessons. Very mature of him.

My side of the story is about giving myself to people who are emotionally unavailable, expecting them to be available. About an abandonment wound that is ripped open all over again.
And yet, I know I was in the process of letting go of those patterns and behaviors. Still, it is a wake-up call for me, that I cannot tolerate this in my life anymore, from no one.

The first person who abandoned me was my mother. And she came around so much in the past years and is now owning that part by being here for me, being a rock and even more of a mother, emotionally, than she ever was when I was still a child and a teenager. Same for my father, who was never really around much, and wasn't so interested in parenting, but now, after going through some rough times himself, understood what he needed to learn.

I'm so grateful for that because it has given me a safety net when I fell after BD. It has given me back my family, whom I thought I had lost over the years.
And it has made me capable of making new connections with people that are much more healthy for me. That already started in the years before BD, and apparently, simultaneously with my H sliding into depression and feeling unsafe himself. Maybe because I wasn't enabling the emotional immaturity anymore? I think he still needed me to be the same, enabling person with weak boundaries for him to feel safe. He probably has found someone else now to replace the old me, as he can't seem to accept and embrace the new me. He said in his long e-mail that I was becoming too strong for him.

So yeah... this is actually good. I might not have handled it in the way I would like to handle it, because it is too soon with the current pain and trauma still needing healing, but for me, the message is clear: I'm not tolerating it any longer. If he chooses to re-write our marriage and act in this way, I'm out. I need to keep my distance for my own protection against further harm by him.

Here I go again. Back into NC (or at least, as "dark" as is possible in our situation). Healing. Detaching. Hopefully keeping myself from contacting him or reacting to him.
Reset. Go. Forward moving again.

And many thanks for reading/replying, your support and encouragement, Reinventing (((hugs)))

[Inanna]

After he dropped off the dog, he was hesitant to leave, so I asked if he wanted to say something, and he immediately apologized for yelling at me, and then went through the list of what he yelled at me, acknowledging everything was on him and not on me, and that he's learning, but it takes time. And he, again, congratulated me for the way I'm handling it all (which was the first time he said it to my face instead of through message/e-mail).

I expressed again my feelings of pain around not having a say in how our R went and that I couldn't guess what was going on inside him if he didn't clearly express it or even used "hard limits" (he's into rough sex these days with the AP, so I deliberately used a term he now knows very well), and he again, acknowledged that he didn't and that he's working on it.

(It's frustrating because he would always be the one saying during our R that I needed to express my needs in clear and loud words, as "men" can't read minds, lol. Guess "men" expect women to read minds, though  )

I then explained that that is why I feel compelled to think he is going through something, call it MLC or something else, because he acknowledges everything, including the depression. He went on saying that he is not in a depression at this time, and I said, yes, because you're in love right now, but it might come back. He said that he would slay that monster when that time comes, and then I explained: sure you will, but it could also be that once you're out of the infatuation, everything will come back, not only the depression but also everything he has been running away from and suppressing, including his feelings for me. So, what am I supposed to do, I asked him?

And he didn't have an answer other than saying that he understood but that it could take years, or even more than 10 years, who knows, and that he thinks I deserve a great life.
I replied that I'm surely moving forward with my life and if life is telling me to move on, I will. And he said that I'm handling it very well and that he can see that I'm moving forward.

And that was it. He needed to go because he expected a friend to come over and wouldn't want that friend to arrive before closed doors. Awkward goodbyes but he said that he wants to talk in the future but wants to give me time to heal, so that we can have more conversations like the one we just had, instead of us reacting at each other like earlier.

This. Is. So. Confusing.

But still, I'm glad we had that second conversation. I was willing to just take over the dog and let him go, but he clearly didn't want to part ways without apologizing (but also needed a push; my intuition pushed me to ask).

And that is the man I know. But the man I know is definitely going through something.
Time will tell what that "something" is...

After he left, I figuratively pushed the reset button and I'm now going back to detaching and GAL.

And so the story continues...
(But I feel more at peace now. Still, I wrote Acorn's words on many post-its: HAVE NO EXPECTATIONS. Need to practice that more.)

[marvin4242]

Please do not hear any judgement in what I am about to ask, rather something to ponder. If you can internalize that he is in an unstable and bad state, if you can internalize that almost anything you say, or he says, doesn't matter, and if you believe that interacting with him will cause more harm than good, then ask yourself what is your motivation for doing it?

We have all been there, believe me. And there are multiple reasons that we may have to admit to ourselves and accept first.

[Reinventing]

Inanna, glad you feel a bit better after the apology and more settled so it's easier to focus on you and your healing.

You'll find what works for you and will get more stable as you heal.

[Inanna]

Please do not hear any judgement in what I am about to ask, rather something to ponder. If you can internalize that he is in an unstable and bad state, if you can internalize that almost anything you say, or he says, doesn't matter, and if you believe that interacting with him will cause more harm than good, then ask yourself what is your motivation for doing it?

Thanks, Marvin.
I totally get what you mean.
And I don't know. I just thought I was going to be able to handle it. We never had encounters like this in the past when meeting irl, after BD. Only virtual and phone monstering. He was always calm and distant, acting "normal" when we met. We even had superficial conversations. I didn't think this time would be different. But it was.
And it's been a while since we last saw each other. He's been missing the animals. I'm not going to prevent him from spending time with the animals.

But apparently, I wasn't strong enough to deal with what he was bringing in today. It wasn't an encounter like we usually had. There's definitely something different or something has progressed in his process?

So yeah, it makes me a lot more wary now about future interactions.
It very much feels like a trial-and-error thing to me now. There's no way I could've known how this would go except for actually going through the experience. Because I didn't expect this at all. Otherwise, I would've made sure he could pick up the dog without me being around.

Appreciate the question to ponder on, though.

[Inanna]

Inanna, glad you feel a bit better after the apology and more settled so it's easier to focus on you and your healing.

You'll find what works for you and will get more stable as you heal.

Yeah, the apology definitely made a difference. But still... it's so confusing. Trying to let go of any expectations whatsoever concerning his behavior or state of mind or whatever rollercoaster ride he is on.
I really see this experience as a sign that detachment is truly essential. Blah... I so hate this whole MLC thing.
Thanks for the support!

[FaithWalker]

I'm sorry that you are going through this Inanna.  Betrayal trauma is tough, tough, tough.

When I was going through my Bomb Drop, I had a lot of the same thoughts.  Who is this person?  It was like my H went out to the garden shed and got abducted by aliens and then an alien took over his body and that my real H was somewhere in the universe watching and screaming that it wasn't him.

Now, 8 years out, it does feel as if my husband has died.  It's hard to reconcile that with the fact that his body is still here and he still interacts with the children.  He is definitely not the person I knew and loved and sometimes that was hard to come to terms with.  I think the hardest part for me is that my heart and mind had a hard time coming to terms with the finality of things, knowing there wasn't any closure.  I've since moved beyond that and have been able to realize that I may never have closure like I thought I should have.  Truly, there is still those echoed moments of WTF, but it does get easier as we get some distance from Bomb Drop.

I will always feel like our marriage was just needing a couple light bulbs changed and that my H burned down the whole house instead.  But I do realize that our marriage was not the problem, and that the kids and I were just collateral damage in his war against himself.

I had really wished that I could have just moved away and started over somewhere where I wouldn't have to see my xH.  A clean break.  Unfortunately, with kids that just wasn't possible.  But with time and healing, sharing a town, and children gets easier.

I know that you don't have kids but you do have the pets, so that is a bit of navigation you have to figure out right now.  Go easy on yourself and don't beat yourself up if you don't get it right on the first go, second go, etc.  This is not easy territory to navigate and obviously not something any of us every expected in our marriage.

[Inanna]

Thank you so much for sharing, Faithwalker.
I can't imagine being on this road for 8 years! Wow!
And yes, I would think it could be easier if it wasn't for the pets and to still be connected through our business also.
But it is what it is * sigh *

I have to say that I'm remarkably recovering well and fast after that whole thing yesterday. It seems that my emotional turmoil is mostly centered around contact with H, like a stead one-day-a-week drama, but all other 6 days have been steady, stable, and drama-free. So, I'm probably doing something right when it comes to my own mental/emotional health.

I felt a lot better yesterday a few hours after he left. Talked to some friends, my mom, had a decent night of sleep (a bit more restless than the past days, but still okay) and this morning, had a great time at church, meeting some wonderful new people (we're just a group of about 25 people, so it's intimate, like one big "family,"), and had some more conversations with friends and some LBSers today.

I mean, life is quite good if I don't have to deal with H.
But one day a week of drama is definitely better than what I had before. No obsessive thoughts anymore but I do still think about H or MLC or anything related for most of the day. It's always somewhere in the back of my mind, but those thoughts aren't intrusive anymore like they used to be. I guess that's part of the process, and that I will be less and less occupied with H in my mind over time.

His behavior yesterday definitely also helped me see the absurdity of what is going on in his head.
It's all so crazy, unbelievable. And yet, it's happening. I'm really glad he's the MLCer and I'm the LBSer and not the other way around.
That's good, right? I can see how I can get through this, as a LBSer. I can see the light at the "end," and the possibility of experiencing a lot more joy in my life, even now, I can see that I can learn and grow and become stronger by the day.
But for him? The road looks still very long, dark, and scary. Hard to watch...

[Reinventing]

Isanna,
Really good that you've noticed your patterns of when you are settled and when you're not settled.

Also, you are doing great settling down faster and drawing on support systems. Keep doing more of what helps you heal and less of things that get in the way of your healing.

[Baxter1]

Ianna-

Although I wouldn’t wish this one anyone I do agree that it’s no picnic for the MLCer. I look at her sometimes and she just seems so so sad. She cycles back to normal but even then I’m sure the guilt and pain is there and is just masked. I think you’re doing great, keep working on you, if there is a silver lining to all of this is that the LBS comes out much stronger, I am definitely not the same person I was 10 months ago, and that’s a good thing.
Good Luck!

[WHY]

Ianna-

Although I wouldn’t wish this one anyone I do agree that it’s no picnic for the MLCer. I look at her sometimes and she just seems so so sad. She cycles back to normal but even then I’m sure the guilt and pain is there and is just masked. I think you’re doing great, keep working on you, if there is a silver lining to all of this is that the LBS comes out much stronger, I am definitely not the same person I was 10 months ago, and that’s a good thing.
Good Luck!

I read Shock Sis and some others that say the MLCer is in pain and it’s no picnic.  I have thought about this though.  I still think the pain and suffering is way worse for LBS.  at least in the beginning.  I’m sure after the awakening it’s bad for the MLCer, especially once LBS is bullet proof by that point.   But during replay.  LBS is tortured….

[Inanna]

Thank you, Reinventing, Baxter, and WHY, for contributing to my thread.

And I don't know, WHY, if the LBS suffers more than the MLCer. I've read Shocks Sis's story (and translated it to Dutch with permission from Shock) and I'm currently in the process of reading Shock's threads. So, I know the story quite well by now.

I can't really compare at this time because my H insists on saying he's feeling great and nothing is going on with him. So, I'll have to wait and see until he comes out of Replay 

Maybe, it may also depend on the level of childhood trauma an LBSer still has to resolve after BD. I worked through most of mine, so even though BD was traumatic and the grieving process is truly devastating, I don't feel it's the end of the world and I feel quite comfortable in my skin underneath it all.
I don't think my H will feel that core stability that I was able to build before BD when he comes out of Replay. Something tells me that he will be having an extremely hard time, but I can't be for sure, of course.

[Inanna]

I wanted to share a small update...
Today was the first day that I actually spent many hours without thinking about my H 
I've been having so much focus to work on my site. I'm rebuilding my site so that I can "relaunch" my business, now being three months after BD, and finally have the headspace to work on my future more.
I've been having a blast figuring out some of the technical stuff (I'm quite tech-savvy, fortunately) and enjoyed diving into the details of it all, creating some of the pieces for the site — and, in my humble opinion, it's looking great so far.
So, I'm looking forward to continuing to build the site and working out the details, and hopefully, soon, I'll feel ready to start taking new clients.

The other side to this is that because of emotional detaching, I was a bit confused about my feelings toward my H when I was preparing dinner tonight. It's like I can't easily access my feelings toward him anymore like they are more distant, less tangible. I don't think I'm indifferent and I do still often think about the man I used to know, but it's like my mind finally understands — and emotionally, it's sinking in more — that the man who's now walking around is not my H. It's the alien. And I don't want to be with that person. I don't love that person. So, my "true" H seems to become a more distant memory now.
And it confuses me because I didn't think it would happen so soon. And it's a bit scary as well because... what does this mean for the future and my Standing? Will I still have feelings for him if he comes out of the tunnel and starts doing the inner work and maybe wants to reconcile?

But I remember Acorn's thread and if I'm not mistaken, our feelings for our H can come back if we can see and experience the change in them, right? I hope so... But for now, it's rather "comfortable" because I'm more able to focus on my own life and my own future without H in my life.

This is also because we only have e-mail contact for some practical stuff at this time. I don't contact him for other stuff (and neither has he) and I don't talk about R/M. I don't share about my life. But he's planning on new steps to get the divorce final so I'll probably have to see him soon — not looking forward to it, actually. But of course, I need to secure my future and protect myself financially. That's the only reason I'm going along with the divorce, but I don't take initiative — he has to put in the work, as it is foremost HIS divorce, not mine.

[Inanna]

So, for the first time since BD, a weekend has passed without drama.
The downside is that I haven't heard from my H at all. I've been having more good days now, with a lot of focus on my work as I described earlier. I enjoy building the new site. And I'll be studying a lot in the upcoming months because I'm taking several classes a week. Looking forward to it.

Been to church this morning. It feels like family. I've only started going to this church, which is a small group of Christians worshipping together, after BD, after having a few spiritual experiences while I was in deep despair. And I'm very much enjoying a renewed relationship with God now, and having a small family of Christians who hold higher principles and values. After church, we share a meal and I feel so welcomed and not judged, which is a blessing and a relief after all the turmoil my H caused and having so many people around who don't really understand what I'm going through.

Two people from church are actively working as refugee aid relief volunteers, which I've done for several years in the past. I'm now hoping to be a part of that because I always loved to support refugees, and it gives me so much fulfillment to be of service in that particular way to people in need.

I have also been visiting my family, my parents and brother, and SIL (my brother's wife). It has become a regular weekly thing.

Life is good this way, as long as I don't have to deal with H's drama. But of course, I do miss him at times, and it still happens that thoughts of him just pop up in my mind and then I feel the grief. It's still somewhat hard to grasp that we don't share a life together anymore. So much has changed since BD as I now have a big circle of people around me — I feel so supported and loved. I didn't have that feeling for a big number of years when H and I were still together. It's like he also kind of isolated me, especially in the last years when he slipped into covert depression. And now, I feel that parts of who I am are coming back online, because I no longer compromise them to keep him happy. I no longer have to walk on eggshells and it feels very good to just be myself, uncompromised.

Of course, it's still challenging as well. I have to care for a bunch of animals, which means that I can't sleep in in the morning, because the dogs need to get outside. I can't leave the house for more than approx. 6 hours. I'm in the process of looking for a pet sitter to hire, so that I can take longer trips to visit friends, but it's challenging because my youngest dog has severe anxiety and doesn't trust anyone other than me. But if I can find someone who can come by more often, she'll hopefully grow accustomed to this person over time.

So yeah, it feels like I'm GAL. But many challenges still ahead with H wanting a divorce and my being financially insecure for the future. I will also have to move to a different place over time because this rental house is too expensive and H won't pay half of the costs forever. Not easy with two big dogs.

But I'm learning to surrender to God's guidance, trusting that life will come around and that I'll be able to thrive.
Taking it one step at a time.

[amazinglove]

I loved this post and update. I have also been finding a lot of solace in my faith and a new church. I didn’t feel judged at all, just compassion for my hurt. You sound like you are in a good place! I too have thoughts run around in my head and pop up, all the time in fact, I miss him, the old him, the man I knew for 14 years, but I have to keep reminding myself that that guy isn’t there right now. He’s just not an option. Keep staying strong and GAL is really the only way forward. Bravo to you! Maybe I will look for an online class myself!

[FrenchHusband]

Hi Inanna,

I am glad for you that you are GALing well and that makes you feel good. Interactions with nice and healthy people are very comforting and it will help you to heal.

You are doing very well. Have faith !

[Inanna]

Hi FrenchHusband and AmazingLove, thank you so much for your encouragement! And welcome to my thread 

—

The AP is getting more bold in her actions.
She has suddenly made a bunch of pictures and videos from trips my H and she made in the past months, including a trip from before the affair was exposed, public on Facebook. In some videos, my H's voice was recognizable, as well as pictures with his well-known customized backpack/laptop bag on it. She "smartly" let out the pictures with his face, lol.
Some people who know me sent me some of that stuff via Messenger. I kindly asked them not to.
I contacted my H and asked him to set her straight because this is messing up my emotional detachment. He was under the impression (or so she told him) that she wasn't active on social media at all, but it seems that she's becoming more and more active now and leaving lots of breadcrumbs, as if she wants me to know she's very present in his life.
He on the other hand hasn't posted anything in the past 6 months or so and to many people, the AP is still a huge mystery. Because of the pictures, I also found out that she already visited his apartment and stayed for several days, meeting our cat (who now lives with him) and that she has also met my in-laws.

It's interesting. I was able to remain calm and just left a voice message on my H's Whatsapp.
I don't particularly feel emotional. But when I spoke in the voice message, my voice sounded quite firm and a little harsh at times, so there was definitely some irritation and anger underneath, but not enough to make me emotional.
He replied that what she did was definitely not appropriate and that he would have a talk with her.

I'm not going to hold my breath. For me, it's handled. I said what I needed/wanted to say. Done.
Now back to GAL.

—

Had a long conversation with a friend of mine, whom I recently reconnected with. He's also a Christian and he shared with me today that he has a gift of sensitivity towards people's energy. He didn't know about my H and the AP. I only told him yesterday and that's why we talked on the phone today.

He shared with me that he could sense the AP is bad news and that my H is currently energetically in danger because he lost touch with God. He could name things about the AP that only my H and I know. He hasn't been in contact with my H.
He made me promise I would pray every day and listen carefully to God's guidance because he believes the AP could do things to harm me if I don't pay attention. And that she's definitely unhealthy for my H but that he needs to go through certain experiences to learn who he is. Once he starts remembering who he is, he'll find God again. But it could become tricky for him; if he doesn't find the light, damage could be caused and not everyone comes back from that in one piece.

I felt exactly what he was trying to say. It's been on my mind for a long time and it motivates me to keep on Standing, but foremost Standing for my own integrity.

My friend is going to pray for my H, too (there seem to be a bunch of people willing to pray for him now — so grateful!).
He applauded me with my Standing. He strongly believes my H will regret his decisions and he hopes I can stall the divorce a bit because he thinks that when the divorce is finalized, my H could decide that there's no way back, and it would he harder for him to come back. Also, stalling the divorce (subtly, without pushing) would buy us more time to pave the way a bit more (and by "us" he means the few people around my H who hold the light for him, "lighthouses" like we say here — he knows my H isn't listening to me now). He believes my H will come around at some point (but there's no guarantee because temptations are strong, though God never deserts anyone) and that he will need to see that there are still people who genuinely care for him, no matter if we get back together or not. My friend said he will keep contact with my H to let him know he's there when my H needs someone to talk to, unconditionally — he will not push my H but, if the situation/conversation allows, plant some seeds that hopefully will come to fruition over time. He will also keep me in the loop from time to time but advised me to focus on my healing.
I'm forever grateful to him.

My friend doesn't know anything about midlife crises, but when I shared a bit about Hearts Blessing's work, I could sense he already knew what I was talking about. It feels really good to have people in my life who understand this and are willing to support both me and my H, not in an "enabling" way but in a way true friends would do. It has restored a lot of my trust in people, in life, in God. I feel very much guided, supported, and carried as if God was speaking through my friend today. And I'm glad people are willing to take a stand toward my husband that is in line with my Standing. I feel very fortunate with friends like that.

Tomorrow, I have another session with my therapist. I'm sure she will also provide me with ways to further detach and build strength. So, in short: life is good at this time, despite what the AP was trying to do. I'm strong enough to stand tall and not let it affect me too much. She will never be able to harm me; I won't let her, and neither will God and my friends.

Wishing everyone strength, courage, love, and healing, whoever is reading this 🙏🏻

[amazinglove]

Inanna  that all sounds great! I am in a FB group ab MLC (it's connnected to this one I think it's called Hero's Spouse) and someone posted the below today and it really resonated with me! I thought you might like it too:

"As I think about this whole mlc fiasco, I realised the following; our marriage was mostly good - t had some minor issues in my mind from time to time - like all relationships does, including those with friends, children and family, colleagues, work - this is called life.
My husband is and was a good father and husband - as good as he could be with the resources and knowledge and abilities at his disposal at the time, same goes for me.
Does his path of self destruction change that - No.
It just makes his growth and learning trajectory different from the norm and from mine. Different is not all bad. Maybe this is what he needs to ultimately become.
Internal reflection and becoming takes time and patience and the next pieces of each spouses puzzle as this road is travelled, is only revealed as and when they are ready for it.
I can not control what my spouse does while in crises, but I can give him the loving gift of kindness, patience and space to have his required journey and finding stable ground under his feet again by stepping way back.
How he handles this process of growth and becoming is up to him. It is a personal choice  - and all choices have consequences, ultimately. That is all on his page and he will have to live with that for eternity.
My growth, healing and becoming is not only.my choice, but also my responsibility. The benefits will be for me, but will ultimately spill over onto others I interact with as well.
We all grow and mature at different rates and times.
It is sad that his big emotional growth spurt has to take place within the confines of a long term marriage and family unit, but loosing that may just be the required catalyst pushing him to ultimately change.
There is a reason and a bigger picture with his crises we do not yet fully see - but it will all work out according to  God's will and His perfect timing.
Love is patient and kind and compassionate. Sometimes real love needs to be firm and steadfast and enforce and respect boundaries.
Although we hurt in the process, our purpose in this process is to rise to this challenge and be the better human being - and in doing so, hopefully pulling the lost loved ones from their darkness into our light while being an example for others in our lives.
How will you personally rise to this challenge?

Wishing you a good evening!

[xyzcf]

Thanks amazinglylove for posting that from FB. If we can accept and let them go because they are going to anyway and they actually need to do this, we can heal and continue on with our own lives with or without them.

Inanna,

The spiritual component of MLC is not often discussed. I know of several couples whose marriages were strong and faith based and the MLCer distanced themselves from God..something we never dreamed they would do.

Rejoice Ministries is a site that talks about marriages that fall apart from a biblical perspective, tying scripture into the understanding of the "prodigal spouse". Linda Rook has written a book called "Broken Heart on Hold. Surviving Separation' which also is biblically based and from a standers point of view.

For some reason, the concept of standing is not considered to be the best way for the LBSer to proceed...various definitions have been used for standing, standing for yourself, standing to allow healing but what really is the fundamental definition of standing? If faith is important in your life, it has a different meaning than a "state of being to become healthy".

Some people disregard Heartsblessing's writing because the bible  and her faith life is very much a part of her mentoring and writing.  And I do understand why that would not reasonate with some people.

Even within the church, and I am Catholic, the idea of standing is not encouraged...rather, the idea of getting an annulment is put forth.

We know what is right for each of us. It's an intensely personal decision, one that I find difficult to comprehend...why would God want this for me?

Thanks for sharing what your friend said to you. I believe in the power of prayer and that our spouses need our prayers....prayers are answered but not always in the way that we hope for.

You are early on in this trial. I feel that my faith life helped me to get through the darkest days of my life.

"For I know the plans I have for you"declares the Lord, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future".

Jeremiah 29:11

[Baxter1]

Ianna,

Well done on setting a boundary of not putting stuff out there online. I used to love Facebook, now not so much after seeing pics of W with OM. The pain of knowing there’s someone else is painful,  but seeing the proof, at least for me it was pain and anger. In my case my W put those pics online, she blocked me but like you others sent then my way.
Also the quote from HS was amazing, thanks for sharing it amazinglove

[FaithWalker]

Your new Church sounds just like where you needed to be for this very moment.  I'm glad that has come into your life.

I stood from my Bomb Drop in 2015 until my H remarried in 2020.  I will never regret those years of standing.  I don't always understand why it worked out like it did, but I trust God and I trust that He knew something I didn't.  His place in my life is still the most important thing.

[Inanna]

As I think about this whole mlc fiasco, I realised the following; our marriage was mostly good - t had some minor issues in my mind from time to time - like all relationships does, including those with friends, children and family, colleagues, work - this is called life.
My husband is and was a good father and husband - as good as he could be with the resources and knowledge and abilities at his disposal at the time, same goes for me.
Does his path of self destruction change that - No.
It just makes his growth and learning trajectory different from the norm and from mine. Different is not all bad. Maybe this is what he needs to ultimately become.
Internal reflection and becoming takes time and patience and the next pieces of each spouses puzzle as this road is travelled, is only revealed as and when they are ready for it.
I can not control what my spouse does while in crises, but I can give him the loving gift of kindness, patience and space to have his required journey and finding stable ground under his feet again by stepping way back.
How he handles this process of growth and becoming is up to him. It is a personal choice  - and all choices have consequences, ultimately. That is all on his page and he will have to live with that for eternity.
My growth, healing and becoming is not only.my choice, but also my responsibility. The benefits will be for me, but will ultimately spill over onto others I interact with as well.
We all grow and mature at different rates and times.
It is sad that his big emotional growth spurt has to take place within the confines of a long term marriage and family unit, but loosing that may just be the required catalyst pushing him to ultimately change.
There is a reason and a bigger picture with his crises we do not yet fully see - but it will all work out according to  God's will and His perfect timing.
Love is patient and kind and compassionate. Sometimes real love needs to be firm and steadfast and enforce and respect boundaries.
Although we hurt in the process, our purpose in this process is to rise to this challenge and be the better human being - and in doing so, hopefully pulling the lost loved ones from their darkness into our light while being an example for others in our lives.
How will you personally rise to this challenge?

Thank you so much for sharing that quote, AmazingLove. Waauw, that resonates with me, too. Beautifully articulated.

In my latest blog post, I made a comparison between Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader. My H is a big Star Wars fan and especially a Darth Vader fan. I think his personal relationship with the Darth Vader character, knowing it is originally Anakin Skywalker (sorry for the potential spoiler, lol) is very telling about how he looks at himself and what he is going through now. I mostly got to know Anakin but when MLC started, it seems that Darth Vader mostly took over and is now finding travel companions to keep Darth in place (like the AP, for instance, who's attracted to Darth Vader in my H and doesn't know my Anakin H). I'm definitely on the Light Side, having integrated most of my Dark parts in the past 10 or so years, while my H is going deeper and deeper into the Dark Side, looking for something he won't find there. I hope Anakin is healing underneath like Shocks Sis shared in her story about her MLC experience. I believe my H thinks of Anakin as weak and idolizes Darth Vader as someone strong, but it should be the other way around. Anakin was just badly hurt and Darth took over as a persona that gave him a sense of control, but it was pure hatred from unresolved wounds and trauma that got the lead (although, eventually — spoiler alert — something of Anakin seemed to radiate through Darth Vader in the end like Darth had a memory of who he used to be). So, who exactly was the weakest one? My H will have to make a choice eventually: healing Anakin and letting go of Darth Vader, or going deeper into the Dark Side and risking getting severely damaged or even dying (because life won't keep us forever if we choose a path of self-destruction).

I would love to share this metaphor with my H, but I won't at this time. Maybe one day, I'll mention it to him, after he's come out of the tunnel and is looking for ways to understand what happened to him.

I'm also in the Facebook group, but mostly reading and I wrote a few comments here and there.

[Inanna]

For some reason, the concept of standing is not considered to be the best way for the LBSer to proceed...various definitions have been used for standing, standing for yourself, standing to allow healing but what really is the fundamental definition of standing? If faith is important in your life, it has a different meaning than a "state of being to become healthy".

Some people disregard Heartsblessing's writing because the bible  and her faith life is very much a part of her mentoring and writing.  And I do understand why that would not reasonate with some people.

Even within the church, and I am Catholic, the idea of standing is not encouraged...rather, the idea of getting an annulment is put forth.

We know what is right for each of us. It's an intensely personal decision, one that I find difficult to comprehend...why would God want this for me?

I find this really interesting... I've thought a lot about what Standing means according to definitions from people I found, what it means to me, and I read several real-life stories of course from people who Stood and moved on, and people who Stood and reconciled.

It's hard to say for me. Every time I think of Standing as literally "Standing for my marriage," I get a little bit into trouble with my emotional detaching because then it feels like I'm waiting for an outcome of "the marriage needs to be fixed at a certain time in the future."
Yet, I AM now Standing for my marriage, because I'm not divorced yet, and I'm not looking forward to being divorced and single. I feel like a married woman and I act like a married woman. I still wear my wedding band every day, and I don't date. I have no interest in other men.

But looking further into the future, it feels like Standing asks for me to take a huge leap into the unknown, and I guess there is where for a lot of LBS'ers faith come in: they Stand because they have rock-solid faith that their H will come around, no matter how long it takes, and the marriage will be mended?

I'm not there (yet). I don't feel like my faith is that strong at this time. I now Stand for my marriage, because, even though the experience of the marriage as a couple is dead now, the marriage still exists. It's still ongoing but I'm experiencing it on my own, without H.

If I think about Standing beyond the scope of the marriage in the sense of: will I still stand after his divorce comes through? Yes, I will, because I believe I won't be healed yet. It will take a lot longer to heal than my H will be able to get the divorce finalized. As long as I'm not healed, I feel that there's no other way than Standing because it takes as long as it takes before I'm ready to even think about "moving on." So, for me, the healing is a "moving forward," indeed, in Standing.

But after that?
What if I'm fully healed and my H is still going hard in Escape & Avoid? Or has OW2, 3, 4... who knows who/what?
I don't know. Life/God will have to tell me. I follow God's guidance. I'm sure time will tell. I'm sure life will tell me when the time is right.
But I really don't know, and that's okay. I don't need to know now. Now, I need to heal. Everything else will probably follow.

[Inanna]

Ianna,
Well done on setting a boundary of not putting stuff out there online. I used to love Facebook, now not so much after seeing pics of W with OM. The pain of knowing there’s someone else is painful,  but seeing the proof, at least for me it was pain and anger. In my case my W put those pics online, she blocked me but like you others sent then my way.

Ouch, yeah... I'm so "lucky"  that my H doesn't post anything remotely triggering on social media. I think he's actually scared of triggering me, not particularly to protect me, but to protect himself. He seems to have a hard time with that kind of confrontation (my emotions, cycling, etc.), hence, I learned that he's avoidant (which never really occurred to me before BD). I once asked him if he expected that I would've just let go, so that he could "surf" through it all into his new life without me. And he said "yes." Well, he doesn't really know me, I guess, because he should've known that I'm a warrior when it comes to injustice. And he did great injustice! Poor guy! * inner warrior released!!! *

So far so good, I haven't gotten any other messages, screenshots, or screen recordings anymore from people. And the few people who did send me something know I don't appreciate it, so I think they won't do it again. But I know that if the AP is truly messed up and sees me as competition, she'll find her "subtle" ways of reaching me. So, I'm focusing on detaching so that it hopefully won't bother me as much anymore (or that I can just feel the feels and not get reactive anymore).

But yeah... social media... it's a challenge.

[Inanna]

In the past few days, I have been wondering if my H shows signs of covert narcissism before MLC...
I saw a post on the Facebook group where someone was asking about the "Runaway Husbands" Facebook group (by Vikki Stark). Vikki's work was what I first encountered after BD, but it never really sit well with me. It was an initial relief to read and hear that many people suffered from "Women Abandonment Syndrome" (which could also be "Spouse Abandonment Syndrome" of course, seeing that there are a lot of male LBSs, too), but I actually had a hard time being in the Facebook group, because most women in there, who're active commenters or posters, seem to push towards narcissism. They actually scared me because every time I would share a bit about my story, they would say that I hadn't seen the worst of my H yet, and that it's rather impossible that he's "nice."
So, I felt pushed to adopt the theory that every runaway husband is a narcissist, overt or covert, maybe passive-aggressive instead of really malignant.

I struggled to accept that. And so, after too many pushes from the women in there, I left. I didn't feel heard or seen. I just felt pushed into some kind of club of angry women who're just bashing their H's, even many years after BD. But I did make some friends in there, and those women all doubt that their H's are narcissists.

A little while ago, I was trying to read "The Passive-Aggressive Covert Narcissist" by Debbie Mirza (also a tip I got in the Runaway Husband's Facebook group), but after a few chapters, I had to stop. Although, I could definitely recognize some of the behaviors in my current MLCer, I couldn't really match it with my H as I knew him before MLC. But then again, his mother, my MIL, is definitely, without a doubt, a passive-aggressive covert narcisssist and my FIL has always enabled and is still enabling her. My H was always abandoned by his parents in that way: he always needed to emotionally accommodate my MIL and my FIL would always choose my MIL's side and never stand up to her, which left my H in a very lonely and vulnerable position. And this dynamic is still going on, even though my FIL has terminal pancreatic cancer now. Now, I believe it's even worse, because my FIL just doesn't have the strength for confrontations, and he made my H promise that he would take care of my MIL after he dies. That's my H's worst nightmare! My FIL just does not know his own son and for my H, it's the ultimate powerlessness, not being able to put up a boundary.

My H was always bad a putting and maintaining boundaries. My MIL is a master in emotional blackmail, in the most subtlest ways.
And yet, even though I can see now that my H truly struggles with putting up boundaries, especially toward his parents — and it's way more obvious now that he's in MLC and I can see how he's so avoidant of any confrontation with me, too — somehow, my H always got what he wanted during our marriage. But his demands went nowhere near what my MIL always demanded of him in those passive-aggressive ways.
Yet, the projections my H puts on me are all about being controlling, demanding, not supporting him, etc. And I'm like... when was I ever like that? My H is the dominant one in our relationship and it's usually about what he wants, and in my experience, I always had to somehow "ask permission" or find ways to do my thing without getting in my H's way too much. In the end, I was the most social (and I am again now!) person in our marriage and I drew all the people into our life, but maybe halfway in our relationship, when I started to struggle with anxiety and burn-out, the tables turned, and I became "the wife of" instead.

It's really dawning on me now that my H might have always had some of those covert narcissistic traits. But it's definitely not malignant. It seems to be more of a reaction from his CEN, a way to cope and probably also to reenact what's familiar to him (his dynamic with his parents, and especially with his MIL).

There came a time when I worked through my own issues and I started taking care of myself more, putting myself first more, and that's exactly when my H started to pull back and started to have issues with how I became, because the dynamic between us changed. And then again, he still got his way most of the time until BD. I really felt isolated and disconnected from most people around me in the year leading up to BD, and I couldn't understand why. And now, over three months after BD, I finally feel like myself again, not just "me" from the relationship before MLC started, but "me" from before I even met my H (I was 21 when I met him) and how I was in the first years of our relationship, until that started changing.

I haven't had a shred of anxiety since the most extreme emotions passed. Of course, I sometimes have a bit of fear of the future, because the future is still uncertain (but always will, right?), but the anxiety I used to feel and what spiraled me into a full-blown anxiety disorder years ago, and I had a short relapse in 2022, is gone. Just gone.

And now I can't stop wondering: what does this mean?
Where has this anxiety gone? Did I internalize something that wasn't maybe mine?
Is he actually a covert narcissist, even from before MLC, but was he just good at hiding it?
Why did I change the way I did halfway through our relationship?
Was the anxiety linked to fatigue and exhaustion from always having to walk on eggshells, how subtle that might've felt at times?
Because I do recall always being so fatigued, like never really feeling as myself, always feeling some kind of heaviness, but it is hard to discern if that was because of my H slipping into MLC, or if it was already present before that. They do say that if you live with a narcissist, you're never really "yourself," never really feeling quite "right." But you think it's you. And my H definitely often made me feel like it was me (I was the one not wanting sex, I was the one with the anxiety, it was my drama, I wasn't bringing in enough money, blah blah, blah).
Now I truly wonder: who was my H, really? Just like with children who can't look at their parents and see them for who they really are until they're all grown up and start to reflect on those dynamics, I sometimes feel like I was maybe also in some kind of denial, because I might have been thinking it was me, and my H didn't really work on stating it wasn't me... I don't know... I might have been an easy victim to blame, so that he could potentially feel better about himself, because we both struggled with feelings of low self-worth. He was just better at externalizing it, and I was a master at internalizing. Match made in heaven!

The more I grew and built my sense of self-worth, which I really did in the past years, the more I became a threat to his comfort zone... that's what I believe.

Still, it's hard for me to think my H is a potential narcissist, but maybe that's because the only narcissists I've known in my life are more overt or, like my MIL, quite malignant. I mean, my MIL tries to be very subtle and is passive-aggressive, but it's still obvious. Most people can see it if they get to know her a little bit. She's very immature, emotionally. She acts like a child with tantrums at times to get what she wants. She puts words in your mouth all the time. And she can't even hide how much she is gossiping behind your back (she really hates me, but acts all friendly to my face, to then gossip about me to everyone she meets, whether they know me or not).

My H, on the other hand, in my experience, is someone who's quite dominant and has his ways of getting what he wants, and he has a lot of anger within himself (the stress he radiates is really tangible at times, and some people at work are afraid of him). He can sometimes be a bit of a bully if things don't go his way. But he actually doesn't put people down overtly. He doesn't really gossip much. He seems to be genuinely caring about people, but he lacks the skills to set and maintain boundaries, is very avoidant and people-pleasing (but then that will put him in conflict with himself, resulting in anger towards himself, because he then realizes he should've put a boundary up).

I don't know. I get so confused.
Even now... there are definitely narcissistic traits now with his MLC persona and the monstering and the lack of remorse and the selfishness.
But... even now, he still seems to genuinely care in those moments of clarity and if you're enabling his current fantasy, he will be the nicest and most caring man you probably ever met. (-> but this also sounds really narcissistic, lol... if you enable a narcissist, they can truly be nice, but it's because you're working in their favor, not because they're really interested in who you are. You're just still useful to them. And I stopped to be useful, I guess, because I didn't enable my H as much anymore... * sigh * I'll probably never know what's really going on underneath that thick skull.)

I want to believe that he's just a victim of CEN who now became a perpetrator going through MLC, until he integrates the parts of himself that need integration.
Who will he become then? I don't know. I wonder about it.
Will I like that person who he will become? Or will he get stuck in his current persona and spend the rest of his life like his MIL does (but I'm sure she always had the traits)?
Will he still want things to go his way? Because even though my H was a caring and empathetic man, he still was someone who knew how to get his way. Will I be willing to accept parts of him that were part of the old relationship still to be there in the future?

So. Many. Questions.

And I know it's impossible to answer. I'll just have to wait and see. And... I remember Acorn's words very well: NO EXPECTATIONS. At all.
It might never happen, that I get to see my H as a changed person. Or it might.

Just some thoughts... hehe... feels good to express them. Now I can let go 

Edit: I just remember that my H is actually really bad at maintaining friendships. He always has this expectation that people will come to him. If they don't, he will have issues with it but not necessarily take the initiative to connect. I'm sure there's also a deep fear of rejection.
Me, on the other hand, never had issues maintaining friendships. I'm usually the one who reaches out when it's been too long. People appreciate it. I don't fear rejection as much as abandonment (which is a whole other level of rejection like you're existence isn't validated, not just rejected). But working through my mother-wound of abandonment, I learned that I'm worth love and friendship and that abandonment really reflects on the one who's abandoning, not the one who's abandoned. It doesn't stop me from connecting with people now. My world is growing so big now, with so many people in my life I feel a connection with (what a relief after being so isolated in the years before BD), but my H's world is becoming very, very small, because I'm not in his life anymore drawing in all the people. Now he's confronted with his issues of truly connecting with people.

[Treasur]

I’m not sure it’s a black and white, either/or thing as it might seem. We all have narcissistic traits - in fact it’s healthy that we do - but perhaps it will make more sense to you to think of it as a sliding scale.

I was also struck by this…
“My H…has his ways of getting what he wants.. has a lot of anger within himself….some people at work are afraid of him”
Imho that’s quite a significant statement.
I’m not sure I have ever had anyone who has been afraid of me in my entire life, even if a few folks haven’t much liked me. Have you?

[xyzcf]

I did not reasonate with Vicki Stark's book. Somehow, it didn't fit what I was experiencing.

From my understanding, narcissism is usually diagnosed in early adulthood...you don't suddenly become one later in life. It is a true psychiatric diagnosis.

We question what is happening with our spouses and certainly in MLC they display narcissistic characteristics and it's extreme...all about me, me, me...but when you look back, can you really say that your spouse has been this way throughout your entire marriage?

Certainly, we all have traits of narcissism. My husband and my daughter are both only children, so they were the center of attention perhaps as children, but I would not label either of them narcissistic.

And so, after too many pushes from the women in there, I left. I didn't feel heard or seen. I just felt pushed into some kind of club of angry women who're just bashing their H's, even many years after BD. But I did make some friends in there, and those women all doubt that their H's are narcissists.

Whatever you call their crisis, the impact on your life remains the same.....anger is part of our healing process but needs to be resolved at some point so we can enjoy life and not be consumed by how angry we are.

Sometimes we rewrite our story and we contemplate "what did I miss???"

I am very very sure that my husband loved me deeply for 34 years..until about a year before BD.  That is fact. Had he been a true narcissist, we would never had made it that many years, nor would I have the memories I have of the hundreds of ways he showed me his love......so the label doesn't apply in my case and I don't think it does in most of the stories I have read on. HS either.

[Inanna]

I was also struck by this…
“My H…has his ways of getting what he wants.. has a lot of anger within himself….some people at work are afraid of him”
Imho that’s quite a significant statement.
I’m not sure I have ever had anyone who has been afraid of me in my entire life, even if a few folks haven’t much liked me. Have you?

Yes, I was thinking about it some more, also because CEN came up in the Facebook group again.
And no, I really don't radiate that kind of "authority" towards people. Their first impression is always that I'm such a sweet girl/lady, haha. I can't recall anyone ever telling me they are scared of me. Or even feel intimidated. On the contrary, most feedback I get, also from clients is that people feel at ease with me quite quickly. It seems to be one of my strengths. And I would never abuse that either.

But I wrote something in the Facebook group and then some more via PM, because someone wanted to dive a little deeper...

I recognize that from my own H, this expectation (especially became visible when he slipped into MLC) that I should be able to read his mind so that he "doesn't have to spell it out" for me.
Someone else in the group mentioned to me that it's like expecting a mother to feel what her baby/child needs, which is natural for a mother to do, but cannot be expected from a spouse.
And yet, my H really believed it should be like that. He blamed me for not being a good wife because I could not read his mind. He even expected that I should always ask what he wants. And I'm like: huh? How can I know you want something if you don't say so?

It's really something he's trying to get from his mother, and no one can give him that. Even his mother can't because he is now an adult, not a baby or child anymore. He will have to deal with that "missing" and build a relationship with himself in which he feels confident enough and is emotionally mature enough to communicate his needs and feelings to other people, especially with his partner. It's a very vulnerable place to be in, to communicate like that, in contrast to expecting things, because in the first situation, you take responsibility for yourself and what you need; in the second situation, you just blame others for not getting what you want. In the first situation, there's a risk of being rejected; in the second situation, you reject others before they can reject you.

On some occasions, my H stated that he's aware of this and that he can't expect it from me, and his therapist is helping him to learn what he needs to learn. But apparently, he does not want to learn it with me. He'd rather be with the AP who "gives him exactly what he needs," like he's comparing her to me and concludes that it IS possible. Little does he know... it's limerence. Once that wears out, he will be exactly in the same spot once again. And so the pattern repeats itself.

And now I'm getting to the part where people get scared of my H:

Yeah, my husband seems to be crazy scared to share an opinion or a preference, if he doesn’t first know if it will match mine. It’s like he’s really avoidant of anything that smells like potential rejection. His sense of self must be so fragile, I now realize. But I didn’t understand it before BD.
And yes to the relationship problems. I didn’t know anything about his concerns and he couldn’t even put it into words either. It’s just so confusing.

Last time he expected me to just guess what was going on in his mind, was after BD, and I just became sooooo angry with him because he kept on saying that I’m the one who should know, while he just doesn’t give me ANYTHING to go on.

And last time we saw each other f2f, he screamed at me: “What do you expect from me?” And it just came out of the blue, because I was getting a bit emotional. It’s the other way around: it’s my question. And he doesn’t know what to expect from himself, so he’s just projecting it on me. He probably feels very, very powerless and helpless every time people want him to communicate his needs, preferences, and feelings.

And yet, he’s a hot-shot manager/consultant, leading a team of hundreds of people at work (250, if I’m not mistaken) and some people are even afraid of him because he’s so firm in his leadership. But same thing: people often need to guess and that’s why they get scared. He will always reject someone else first, before getting rejected himself.

I believe that being in a position of power like that, he really needs it to not feel like he’s just the failure his mother thinks he is. Nothing is ever good for her. Nothing he will ever do will be enough for her. And so, he has worked his butt off for many years to get where he is, just to have that feeling of power and control, that sense of accomplishment. And he is still going strong, even in MLC.

But deep down, he’s just a little child wanting to be seen, loved, and understood. But he’ll never get that from anyone else, until he starts connecting with himself, his inner child, and heal it, and get past his wound of rejection and starts being confident about communicating his needs and feelings.

So yeah, there is soooo much more nuance to the story. Not a black and white thing, definitely!

He always asks me: "What do you want?" and it's like he wants to somehow find out if what I want matches what he wants, but he just cannot communicate it. And then, in some way, it will turn out to be that thing that he wants, no matter what I want. That's so crazy, thinking about it now, because I was never really aware of this dynamic until now.
It's like this "game" of "how can I make my wife want what I want, so that it looks like she gets her way, but I'm actually getting my way." That seems to be what feels "safest" to him. But I stopped playing that game. And so, I became threatening to him. And he gave me the ultimate rejection: abandonment! (which was my CEN wound.)

It's manipulative, right? But I understand why he does it the way he does. Because it's very unsafe to ask for what he wants or share what he feels with his mother. And his mother has the exact same way of communicating, actually. She knows what she wants, and she knows how she wants to feel, but you don't know that, until it becomes your problem, and then everyone needs to comply... or otherwise... tantrum! But her way seems to be more malignant... like she really enjoys the drama, creating havoc and turmoil, setting people up against each other, mostly to deflect attention from her own issues and vulnerabilities, I guess.

My H doesn't really throw tantrums though (until now, when he's Monstering) but he can really create a stressful situation somehow so that I cave in and just give up to get rid of the stress and tension... I don't know, it feels that way, and it's very energy-draining, exhausting.
It's still not clear to me how he does it exactly. But it seems to come out from some kind of helplessness and powerlessness, and out of fear and frustration, I would guess. I think he really wants to be the "better" man, but he just doesn't know how. I would think he's highly frustrated almost all the time, not being able to find peace, because there's a rejection risk around every corner.

So yeah... I'm going to contemplate this some more, because it feels fresh... lots of little and big things to understand for me here...

[Treasur]

You might find it useful to consider how this dynamic made/makes you feel, regardless of why you think he does it.

If it’s any comfort at all, I suspect quite a few of us here recognise bits of that dynamic.

[Inanna]

You might find it useful to consider how this dynamic made/makes you feel, regardless of why you think he does it.

If it’s any comfort at all, I suspect quite a few of us here recognise bits of that dynamic.

Oh yes, definitely, I know how it made/makes me feel: like I'm being used. Like I'm just useful and then not useful anymore.
There was a time, like the first 18 years of our relationship, that I would allow myself to be used that way because I lacked that connection with myself and was desperately looking for external validation ("being of use" then became that validation)... so, in that regard, I used him as well. That was probably our trauma bond from the beginning, two CEN people together.

And then I stopped allowing it, after years of inner work and therapy, after going through my own rock bottom.
2019 was the year I recall I felt so good in my own skin for the first time in my life that I stopped enabling a lot of his behaviors, whatever good intentions he might have had.
2018 was the year his sexual abuse trauma resurfaced.

I mean, I can do the math. It went downhill for him and he couldn't get the same things from me anymore.
Corona lockdowns made it worse for him because he now had to work harder to get what he wanted/needed, work from home, not have the same impact on his co-workers with all the physical distance, being confronted with himself a lot and everything he was trying to get away from.

I thrived during corona because I finally felt free from all that pressure to perform (I really enjoyed all the time alone, away from the world, to further establish and strengthen my relationship with myself).

I became allergic to being used and to the level of stress, these situations brought on.
I guess, he felt he couldn't reach me in that way anymore, and started to detach emotionally.

Many triggers followed after his trauma resurfaced, probably also fueled by therapy, which isn't easy if you're avoidant and a runner.
Final triggers happened in 2022: his mother made his trauma all about her and a close colleague suddenly died in her sleep.
EA happened after that. Then PA happened. BD. BOOM!

He needs someone to use. I stopped allowing being used.
He threw me away like an old gadget. And got himself a new one before I knew I was discarded.
Now the AP is his next thing.

I never want to be in a relationship like that anymore. And I believe I won't be. Because I will recognize it when people try to use me. At least, I hope I will, sooner rather than later.
Of course, it would be great if H stepped up and broke free from that pattern as well. If I could, so can he. Time will tell.

[Inanna]

I did not reasonate with Vicki Stark's book. Somehow, it didn't fit what I was experiencing.

From my understanding, narcissism is usually diagnosed in early adulthood...you don't suddenly become one later in life. It is a true psychiatric diagnosis.

We question what is happening with our spouses and certainly in MLC they display narcissistic characteristics and it's extreme...all about me, me, me...but when you look back, can you really say that your spouse has been this way throughout your entire marriage?

Certainly, we all have traits of narcissism. My husband and my daughter are both only children, so they were the center of attention perhaps as children, but I would not label either of them narcissistic.

And so, after too many pushes from the women in there, I left. I didn't feel heard or seen. I just felt pushed into some kind of club of angry women who're just bashing their H's, even many years after BD. But I did make some friends in there, and those women all doubt that their H's are narcissists.

Whatever you call their crisis, the impact on your life remains the same.....anger is part of our healing process but needs to be resolved at some point so we can enjoy life and not be consumed by how angry we are.

Sometimes we rewrite our story and we contemplate "what did I miss???"

I am very very sure that my husband loved me deeply for 34 years..until about a year before BD.  That is fact. Had he been a true narcissist, we would never had made it that many years, nor would I have the memories I have of the hundreds of ways he showed me his love......so the label doesn't apply in my case and I don't think it does in most of the stories I have read on. HS either.

Aah, almost missed your wonderful reply, xyzcf!
Yes! That's it. Thank you for pointing that out. I also believe my husband loved me deeply. Cannot pinpoint exactly when he stopped loving me due to emotionally detaching, but it's probably also somewhere around 1 to 1,5 years before BD. Or it could be longer... it seems like a slow process of detaching.
He also did a lot to make me feel loved. He stood by me when I really went through a horrible time. I mean, he was my rock. I thought he would've ran many times, and he was still there, holding my hand through all of it.

Yet, at the same time, there were things like not being able to care for me when I was sick. It irritated him. But I had to care for him when he was sick. (But it's also in my nature.)
Those little things... I don't know. Not a black and white story, again.

So, the way I understand narcissism is that it's a spectrum?
And narcissistic personality disorder is scoring quite high on that spectrum?
But everyone has traits. And I think my H definitely has narcissistic traits that are now amplified in MLC.

So no, I don't think the label applies either, now that I went through this part of my story, reflecting. It would've been more obvious, not only to me.
I truly believe my H is capable of showing genuine empathy, which is something someone with NPD cannot, I believe. I don't believe my MIL has much empathy. She hasn't shown. Like ever. When she tries, it feels fake. You know? Like, they just copy what other people do, but there's no genuine feeling or emotion. She only cries when it's about herself and not getting what she wants or wanting people to feel sympathy for her because her life is so, so hard *boo hoo* No one's life is as hard as hers.

That's not my H at all.
I mean, we did years of refugee aid relief work as volunteers. Some of it was probably to boost his ego but still... he did a lot. He gave a lot. Without asking for anything in return. My MIL could not do such a thing. She tried, but she ended up complaining about the refugees not accommodating her too well. It's always about her.

So, I'm truly starting to see that my H's incapability to be emotionally mature is not because he does not have the potential, but because he just didn't learn how to. He doesn't lack the empathy. He has empathy but there's something preventing him from being the person he truly is. He lacks the skills and he has a deep fear of rejection. He has a fragile sense of self but there's a deep desire within him to get to know himself. I can feel it. I can see it.
My MIL doesn't have that desire. She just wants other people to accommodate the sense of self she thinks she has. And every time someone does not do exactly what she wants, she will make sure that person's life is either miserable, or everyone will know what a terrible person that is. Others have to work to keep her sense of self intact, even if it's entirely false.

My H has a strong desire to be himself but he doesn't know himself well enough to know what that is. He's on the search. He's seeking.
And I know he will find himself. I just don't know when that will be.

Okay... I know what I'm Standing for, haha. I do have faith, it seems 

[xyzcf]

You mentioned CEN:

"The definition of childhood emotional neglect is simply this: A parent’s failure to respond enough to a child’s emotional needs. When a child grows up in a household where emotions are not validated, accepted, or responded to enough, he learns how to put his own emotions aside.

A child who grows up this way becomes an adult who doesn’t value, trust, or even know his own feelings. This child may grow into a fully functional, outwardly strong adult. But he will feel a deep sense inside of himself that something is missing; that something isn’t right."

https://psychcentral.com/blog/the-face-of-childhood-emotional-neglect-cen#1

We often hear about MLCer's parents who are cold, don't show their feelings or emotions. They can be great parents in many ways...but lack "warmth" and the ability perhaps to physically connect...when you hug them, they do not hug back.

In my own thoughts about MLC, I often refer to Erik Erickson's stages of development. There are developmental tasks that need to be acheived during each stage, and if not achieved, they move on to the next stage without totally completing the previous one.

Living in an "emotionless" home where feelings are not expressed, certainly can stunt one's emotional development. The author of the article I posted also states that it can be generational and passed from one generation to the next.

I searched for the meaning of CEN and when I read this article it confirms what I know to be true about my husband's family...lovely people, no abuse, religious but his mom, who he was very close to, very cold.

It's what I figured out many years ago about him...and we say sometimes that the MLCer has to do this or they feel that they will die.

His reason for leaving me was that I am "too intense and talk too much"...that is the only reason he has ever given me ...and he's right...I am passionate and feel things deeply, pretty much an empath. I am a nurse. I grew up in a household where people "yelled" at one another and I remember his saying when we first married and we were having an argument, that he would not fight with me. After that, we seldom ever "fought" which is another commonality in the stories I see here.

I thought this meant that we were on the same page so much, and that we were so adult that we resolved any disagreements quietly.

People sometimes told me that I live life with an exclamation mark, which is true...he was always very even keeled......

We had a great marriage, lots of wonderful times and I think he was drawn to my enthusiasm for life...certainly ending our marriage after 32 years because I was "too intense and talked too much" really makes no sense does it?

Thanks for bringing the issue of CEN up. I have worked with abused children for years and know how severe the damage can be. In my husband's family, looking in you would think they were "perfect" but every family has its flaws and dysfunctions and we certainly carry the impact of our families into our adult life.

[Inanna]

"The definition of childhood emotional neglect is simply this: A parent’s failure to respond enough to a child’s emotional needs. When a child grows up in a household where emotions are not validated, accepted, or responded to enough, he learns how to put his own emotions aside.

A child who grows up this way becomes an adult who doesn’t value, trust, or even know his own feelings. This child may grow into a fully functional, outwardly strong adult. But he will feel a deep sense inside of himself that something is missing; that something isn’t right."

https://psychcentral.com/blog/the-face-of-childhood-emotional-neglect-cen#1

Thank you for mentioning this definition and link, xyzcf.

And I'm a bit similar, I think. I'm also quite passionate, have a lot of emotional depth (and I'm not afraid of the hard and uncomfortable feelings and emotions)n and I consider myself also an empath, got that feedback from others a lot, also. I thought my H was also like that, but it seems that he was just mirroring a lot of my emotional energy, I think. I was mostly the one who would express myself this way, but it never really happened through his initiative. He just went along. But looking back, it was mostly me. And now he calls it "my drama," which hurts, of course.

It's not drama. Not in the sense like his mother. It's an emotionally rich life with depth and it's often confrontational, because I don't avoid hard conversations. I used to, but I don't anymore. That was also part of my healing process after my rock bottom: I learned to fully embrace my emotions and feelings, feel them, express them. I'm not perfect, I also get emotionally reactive at times, but I'm definitely not "cold" or "distant" in that way. On the contrary.

My mother, though, is someone who I would consider "cold" and "distant" and that was my CEN wound. But she grew a lot in the past years. She had her wake-up call when she had breast cancer. She worked on herself, and I believe she resolved some of her own CEN trauma (which was much more severe than mine, but I do believe in intergenerational trauma).

But it seems that what my H had with his parents is even worse than my mom and I experienced. My grandmother was a loving woman, took great care of her children, but she had a difficult time when her husband, my grandfather, neglected her early on in their marriage and she couldn't stop getting pregnant. She only wanted two children, but the second pregnancy was twins (my mother and aunt), and then she got another child later on, so 4 in total with no help from my grandfather. He was a serial cheater but they stayed married until he died. She profoundly hated him.
It had a huge impact on my mother. And especially also my youngest aunt because she has BPD. She made our lives hell after my grandmother died. The family is now divided. Haven't seen my aunt in years.

My grandmother owned up to some of her mistakes. It enabled my mother to heal some of it before she died.
But what happens with my H and his parents: they are far from healing. My in-laws will probably never heal in this lifetime, let alone, own their mistakes. My FIL will die of cancer soon, and he's just making things worse because of a lack of awareness and insight in self. And now he's just getting too sick to even bother.
Both are truly toxic but my H is currently trapped. He can't seem to get away from them (emotionally, I mean).

After BD, first thing he did was go home to his parents and they took care of him, even though he was going from Airbnb to Airbnb until he found his apartment. But he sees them multiple times a week and his mother is doing his laundry. I mean, this is the woman he truly hated in the years before BD. And now his father putting that responsibility on him to take care of his mother after his passing... boy   

On top of CEN that is still unresolved, also being sexually abused by a male friend of the family my FIL let into the house for 6 years at a time (!!!)... I mean... it's just heartbreaking. I just can't imagine how to survive something like that. Somehow, my H survived. But because it's unresolved, now life is making him deal with it after all. Limerence will only hold it back for so long. He can't keep on running.

I know deep down that my H is also an empath to a certain extent, and that he's a passionate being with the potential of emotional richness and depth. I think he really immersed himself in it through me, through my emotional depth and richness, but the moment it's about him, he shuts down, obviously. And since he emotionally detached from me, it's now a huge threat to him, and he now calls it "drama." Gosh, he hasn't even realized the "drama" he will get from the AP, lol. That will be nothing like mine 

But yeah... it shows with his parents; his father being so emotionally avoidant... anything negative, he can't handle. At all. Wants to change the subject or just walks away from a conversation. He can't allow himself to feel anything that isn't neutral or positive. I think it scares him. I believe (and my H thinks so, too) a lot happened with my FIL in his childhood that he still can't address. There might be sexual abuse involved also, because he lived for a long time in a very strict Jesuit boarding school that didn't have a great reputation (child abuse was definitely part of it).
And his mother just thrives on drama. So weird that they're still together. Maybe she's a lot less dramatic when she's alone with him. Drama starts when people enter into her life. She wants to be in full control all the time. She's very negative, draining like an energy vampire. Maybe my FIL doesn't want to address any negativity because he has to put up with hers all the time. Always complaining, always blaming someone for something. So exhausting.

It's never about my H unless she gains something from it. Like when he has success at work; she uses it to brag to other people. But she will never tell him how proud she is of him. She just can't speak the words. He has no chance. It will never be enough for her.
My FIL has spoken those words to my H, but he doesn't stand up to his mother, he doesn't defend his son. His mother is always right. So what do those words mean? Nothing. Because when it comes to those important moments, my H will always be on his own. My FIL always backs up my MIL.

And him dying will not help. But this might sound a bit strange... I think it could be a turning point for my H when his father dies. It could change the whole FOO dynamic. My H has a huge chance here to stop this from being passed on to the next generation. I truly believe that. But whether he will take that chance or not... I can't say. Time will tell... I can only pray for him and trust that God has a plan.

[Inanna]

Gonna write a little more... It helps. It feels therapeutic.
Even though I can't be sure of all this. It's just what I feel. But I can't see in my H's head, nor in my in-laws heads.
Still, it feels good to get this out of my system. It's like through writing pieces of the puzzle fall into place and I get a little bit of a release; things are getting processed in this way.
So, lol, if anyone reads through all of this, bravo, haha. I know it's a whole lot!

—

When I re-read what I wrote in my previous post, I started to understand how essential it feels to my H to get that kind of validation he misses from his parents.
There was a moment, not long before the affair started, that my H did express this after he went to have a therapy session. His longing for true validation, and that he couldn't get it from me. He didn't really blame me, but there was an expectation that I should be able to give him more. We had a discussion about it.

But I felt like he was expecting something of me that I truly couldn't give him. Whatever I did, it wasn't enough.
I'm not someone who constantly validates and compliments people. I'm quite selective with the words "I love you" because when I say it, I want to really mean it. And I feel that if it becomes a habit of saying it, it just becomes words... a habit. You stop feeling it. You're so used to hearing it that it doesn't hold the same energy anymore. But I always say it back when my H said it. And then it sometimes feels so icky because he said it constantly but without feeling, without the emotion, and so when I said it back it often felt like... I needed to to prevent him from feeling rejected. But it's hard to put feelings to a habit like that. It goes by so fast also... I'm sure he didn't even register the meaning of the words anymore because it became a habit.

I tried to explain that to my H. I value those words. But he says it constantly, and he even kept on saying it when he was already in the affair.
I mean, what does it mean? Because, at BD, I got the words: ILYBINILWY. And in the week after, when he came to collect some things at the house, I asked him again: do you still love me? And the message changed to: no. So... "I love you" even though he added "but I'm not in love with you" at first, didn't mean anything anymore.

And later, in Monstering, it became: "I don't feel anything for you anymore. Nothing!!!"

I don't play with words that way.
I make sure people can FEEL my love, rather than using words all the time, because words are — in my opinion — quite easy. You can say it but don't mean it.

He didn't understand when we had that conversation. He said that he needed me to say it all the time. That I needed to say how proud I was of him and he wanted me to validate him more with words. And I felt like I was suffocating. Like, he was just expecting me to be his mother, I guess. A validation that runs so deep, that only a mother could give that to her baby. The ultimate validation. I don't think he really realized what he actually wanted, and that words would never be enough, even if I would seriously step up my game.

But I can't.
I'm a grown woman with my own identity, my own life, my own feelings. I'm not a mother even. I don't have children. I have dogs and cats and chickens, and I love them dearly. I might show something to my animals that my H wants for himself from me, too.
But my H is a grown man. With his own identity, his own life, his own feelings. He needs to be his own person, foremost. I cannot give him that co-dependency. My animals are dependent on me. But my H needs to be his own person. And I can love him as a wife and as his best friend, but I cannot "mother" him like I mother my fur and feathered babies, like I would mother my children, if I had any.

It felt so very suffocating to me, what he was trying to get from me during that conversation. I felt something shifted that day. Deep down, I knew something happened to us in that moment. I think he probably made a decision more consciously then to detach from me. I think, after that conversation, he opened himself up to other women. I think he was then ready to find it elsewhere and that he wasn't to hold back anymore.

He had several EAs during the course of our marriage, but I know he held back. He never crossed the ultimate line. He always worked his way back to me. He understood very well that he was playing with fire and kept himself in check. But this time... it was different. He was done.

But I still gave him the benefit of the doubt. I just thought he was truly struggling. He needed to sort himself out and I trusted that this time, he would also work his way back to me. But he didn't. He already left the marriage emotionally. The months after that conversation just went from bad to horrible. That was about 6 months before BD, I believe, somewhere in April 2023. The affair started as an EA, I now know, in May 2023, and by September, it became a PA. BD was on October 7.

Sometimes, when I have my darkest moments, it's hard not to think it's me. "If only I'd given him the validation he needed..."
But I know it's not true. No one can give him that validation. I like to see the AP trying, but she will fail, too. It's just a matter of time.
And he knows it. He stated it several times, during that conversation ("I know I need to validate myself more and that I can't expect it from you/others"), and after BD, and in his e-mails about his therapy process. His therapist is working with him on this matter, he said several times.

Yet... he just continues with the AP and continues to blame me for the "failed marriage," in which I had no say at all.
It's so twisted, this MLC, and everything that comes with it.

I can't have a man child as a husband. I'm done. It's so disrespectful toward who I am as a person. It's so emotionally immature.
I'm truly a very loving and warm person. People around me have no issue recognizing my love. I have plenty. I have so much love to give, that I'm still Standing! I mean, who does that after all this and everything that is yet to come with all his craziness? Lol.

It's not a lack of self-respect. It's love. Agape.
But I don't do "you need to love me this way." That's his broken way of not being able to receive my love.

He misses out on so much. I truly hope he will be able to heal, become whole, and open his heart to receiving, probably for the first time in his life.
And I can only hope he'll be open to receiving my love one day. But there's no guarantee. Sometimes, people are just too deep into avoiding that primal pain of missing out on a mother's genuine love, that they might never come to that place. Sometimes, life is just too short. Or the self-destruction is just too strong.
I need to let go. Let him have his process, his crisis, his life, his pain, his ... whatever it is. Plenty of people are willing and able to receive my love. That's my focus now. And loving myself, of course.
And I pray for him. Maybe some of that love will radiate on him through my prayers, who knows. God knows, and I trust God.

[xyzcf]

Sexual abuse is often mentioned in stories that are written here. I think many more men here  than we realize have been sexually abused...they block it out perhaps, may not even be aware.

We just don't know the impact that life has had on our spouses.

The intergenerational things...there has been more research lately on how trauma can change a person's DNA and that this can be transferred to their offspring...even many generations in the past. So some of our responses might be due to "stored memories" in our DNA. The study of this phenomena is called epigentics.

From:Epigenetic transmission of Holocaust trauma: can nightmares be inherited?
Natan Pf Kellermann

"The Holocaust left its visible and invisible marks not only on the survivors, but also on their children. Instead of numbers tattooed on their forearms, however, they may have been marked epigenetically with a chemical coating upon their chromosomes, which would represent a kind of biological memory of what the parents experienced. as a result, some suffer from a general vulnerability to stress while others are more resilient. Previous research assumed that such transmission was caused by environmental factors, such as the parents' childrearing behavior. New research, however, indicates that these transgenerational effects may have been also (epi) genetically transmitted to their children. Integrating both hereditary and environmental factors, epigenetics adds a new and more comprehensive psychobiological dimension to the explanation of transgenerational transmission of trauma. Specifically, epigenetics may explain why latent transmission becomes manifest under stress. "

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24029109/

I know that if this had not happened to me, I would find MLC a fascinating study...actually, when I step away from the pain and destruction it caused in my own life, I do find it fascinating.

Understanding possible causes helps me. My father was a POW during WWII, had severe PTSD....my thoughts are that my own trauma causesda releasing of some of his trauma in the way my body responded.

My husband uses a word now that "triggers" me...if my voice gets louder or I am even the tiniest bit excited (and he's done this to my daughter as well" he'll firmly state "calma"..... it truly is bizarre.

I can only pray for him and trust that God has a plan.

This will allow you the peace you need to find "joy" and truly live a fulkl life...with or without him....our response to this can be very valuable to our children.

[Inanna]

That is so fascinating, xyzcf!

My H's grandfather fought on the Eastern Front during WWII and was quite highly ranked. I know my H wants to know more about his life. His grandfather was sentenced to work camp in the mines after the war and he completely turned around, making friends with people who were seen as "less than" by the Nazis. He did his penitence.
Apparently, there are a lot of documents about his grandfather's life and history available but my H needs permission from his mother to get access, because she is still the living heir. But she refuses. She's very much ashamed of her father and that part of the family history. Another pain point between my H and his mother.

My H has experienced his grandfather's PTSD from close by. And how his grandfather met his wife, my H's "second mother," as he calls her, is truly a romantic story. It was after the war, and she's Hungarian. She lost her parents and as an orphan, came to our country and got adopted by a family over here. She met my H's grandfather here when he was doing his penitence. She was my H's everything before she died. She died when the sexual abuse started, so with that trauma, he also lost his only confidant, the only person he believed truly "mothered" him. I think that's also been a trauma for him. His grandfather died even earlier. They were both quite young, still.

So many factors play into this, right? It's impossible to know everything.
Yet, with every bit I'm learning, it makes more sense. It helps me understand. It helps me cultivate more empathy, even though I'm emotionally detaching. What are we without our empathy?

Maybe someday, I'll write a book about this... about everything I learned.
People already invited me to do so, after they started reading my blog (and in the meantime, I probably shared more on here than on my blog, haha. Need to translate some of the stuff I posted here).

It may sound weird but I'm actually already living a fulfilling life. BD threw my life upside down, definitely, it was very traumatic and the grieving process is still at the forefront of my life... and yet, it hasn't broken me, nor broken my life. I get fulfillment from the richness of life, from giving and receiving love, from genuine connection and being able to be of service to others, so in a way, that only enhanced after BD (of course, the first two months after BD were truly horrible and I couldn't see it like that back then). I mean, I thought my life was already quite fulfilling before BD, but now looking back, it's way more fulfilling now. Before BD, I was still very much feeling "oppressed" (for lack of a better word) by what was going on with my H.

I can actually say that BD and MLC has given my life even more purpose, even though it's not really my crisis, like it's a crisis to my H. It was inevitable. It was part of what needed to happen for me to continue what I was already moving towards before this all happened.

Don't know if there are other people in here who feel something similar. I'm sometimes hesitant expressing this because people find it hard to believe so soon after BD, or because they're very much struggling when BD was a lot longer ago. It's not a competition. It's just that... I don't know... it changed a lot for me in a positive way, like it was meant to happen so that I could continue to grow, and if it didn't happen, I would've probably come to a standstill or even gotten sick (physically, there was definitely something going on before BD, but that all disappeared after BD). I believe that what I felt internally was mostly what was going on within my H, and I needed to get away from that, otherwise, I would've gotten severely hurt myself.

I think this is what God tries to tell me now, that it's a good thing that it happened and I do not need to worry; everything will be fine, no matter the outcome. I think God wanted to show me how strong and powerful I really am. That he wanted me to be able to pick the fruits of my labor, all the inner work I did in all those years. He wanted me to move forward because I was on the right path, but my H was jeopardizing that and needs to fight his own battles now.

I do worry about my H from time to time (and I'm not the only one. I have many conversations with friends who know my H, too), that he is in the process of getting sick; that what I was experiencing before BD, being still in his energy, were signs of that. Like, hormonal imbalances, for instance, inflammation of the gut, being bloated, and this very deep anger that seems to mess with body temperature, bladder inflammation, and blood pressure. It all felt so unhealthy. I thought I was going into perimenopause, but after BD, and going through the initial shock and most extreme emotions, things settled quickly and all I felt is gone now. I was surprised. I believe I picked up on his inner turmoil and since he's not living at home anymore (he left the day after BD), I'm not subject to that energy/vibration anymore. But when I do have to meet him in person, it comes back, I can still feel it very easily. It's very draining also. I'm truly exhausted after just meeting with him briefly (fortunately, it doesn't happen a lot anymore). Really, I would not want to be the AP at this time (but they still have a long-distance relationship at this point), and this can't be healthy for his very sick father either... Everyone who comes in contact with my H probably doesn't feel right, not knowing what that is exactly... (although, many people may not have that awareness.)

Are there more LBSs who have a similar experience?

[Inanna]

I posted my question in the Facebook group, and there was an interesting comment someone made:

There's a concept called projective identification. The theory is that during childhood when a child is a baby, the parent (usually the mother but any caregiver) takes the baby's negative emotions - anger, frustration, fear, etc - internalizes them, soothes them, and then gives the soothed emotion back to the baby. This is how babies learn to process and begin to recognize and deal with their emotions. However, if the caregiver can't fulfill this function for their child because of their own trauma, fear, emotional immaturity, etc., the child grows up and doesn't learn how to emotionally regulate and they continue to project their emotions onto others around them (usually people who are very empathetic or experienced emotionally reactive parents). As a result, they will go through life looking for people who help them emotionally regulate by allowing them to project their unwanted emotions onto them, in order to help them deal – much as they did as babies with their mother.

That is absolutely recognizable to me, not only when H went in MLC but in all the years we had together. And I was willing to take on that job, subconsciously. I'm starting to believe that a lot of my anxiety, which I never had before I met him and haven't had since he left, was due to what he projected onto me and what I internalized and tried to soothe. This is truly eye-opening to me. I'm now doing a bit more research into this phenomenon.

I also got a whole lot of comments in that thread. Our stories and experiences are so similar. It's mindblowing.

—

H is now pushing again for the divorce. He's been planning appointments with an accountant for a second opinion (because our accountant is his best friend) to vet the business, with our business attorney, and an insurance agent, all in favor of figuring things out to come to a divorce agreement. He hasn't mentioned meditation just yet, but I'm expecting it... soon.
So, in the next couple of weeks, I'll have to drag myself to those appointments... pfff... Fortunately, my father wants to be there for at least two of the three appointments to support me and play buffer, lol. My father has been a great support.

I'm really dreading those appointments. But he's doing the work. He obviously wants to move forward with the divorce. He seems adamant and very sure of himself. The PA must go well, I guess. And the AP is in the middle of a divorce as well, although I recently learned her H doesn't want the divorce. Her H put up a new profile picture on Facebook last October: a wedding picture with the kids. I don't know how far they are in their divorce process.

I'm mostly dreading those appointments because I don't feel like meeting my H. I just don't. I'm doing okay with GAL and don't need his presence in my life right now. Not in the way he is, the MLC persona. I know it's going to be hard because these are tests to see how much I've detached. But also, I know it's going to be exhausting to be in the same room with him.

He's just not my H anymore. At all. I haven't seen any clear moments anymore. He seems to be fully immersed in this new persona. He's not really monstering (I make sure I don't push him) but he's just indifferent, it seems. The only moments I see a little bit of "care" (?) is when it's about our animals. He wants to still see them, and he also wants me to send pictures. That's it. Nothing more. Everything else just seemed to have dropped away. Like I'm a very distant relative or something that he still needs to deal with probably mostly out of guilt and to protect his "Mr. Nice Guy" image. Plus, it's convenient to him that I still do the books, I guess. So even when he's "nice" it's just all about him. It doesn't have to do anything with me.

On the one hand, it's easier to detach this way, because nothing he shows me reminds me of the person he was and our marriage. That's all in the past now. But having to deal with a person I don't like, don't want in my life, living in the same body of the person I knew and was married to (still am!), is so hard! I just hate it. I just wish I could just disappear, cut him out of my life, but I need to take care of myself financially as well, and with two big dogs in the house, I don't have much choice. The only reason I'm still living in this house and staying in the business is because I need to be able to take care of them, especially because our youngest dog isn't socialized with people and has severe anxiety. So moving is not an option, and getting a job somewhere is not an option either. I run my business from home and that's why we took in the animals, because I'm always at home, but I don't earn enough to survive, let alone pay for their care. H will have to contribute and make sure their lives get the stability they deserve until they pass away (our youngest is now almost 7, our oldest just went 10). And it seems that he's willing (for now).

I'm grateful though that my H didn't fully go into monstering and still wants to come to an agreement for the sake of the animals, and that he didn't just vanish. And he hasn't spent like a lot of MLCers do (yet), on the contrary, it seems like he's spending less than usual.

So, in that sense, the divorce is helping, because now he's still willing to contribute, and if it's all settled, he won't be able to back out. I think the AP will get demanding over time, so even though I hate to get divorced, and I don't want to go through mediation, it's better I do to protect myself and my animals.

But yeah... the next couple of weeks will be rough, I think.
Fortunately, I also have a lot of great things planned, like meet-ups with old friends I haven't seen in years, my education and studying (three nights a week), I've been able to book a few new clients (and I didn't even do any promotion; plus the website is still offline), and I also still have regular family visits and church every week. I'm also starting refugee aid relief volunteering work as of February, something I always did in the past but somehow didn't do for a number of years, and now I was invited by someone in the church to help out. The fun thing is also that I used to blog about my volunteering work, so now I can also revive that blog.

I have a lot of good things going... but still... ugh!  Whish me luck!

[Inanna]

I shared this in the Facebook group today...
A little LBS peptalk just poured out of me.

—

I went over every EA he had (3 that I know of).
I thought about the friends he attracted in his life.
I see who the AP is.

They are all broken people.
They need(ed) each other and fe(e)d on each other's egos.
Some of them grew and moved away. Most of them didn't and just kept on living their same old life.

With every cycle, suffering deepens.
Until we grow and go through the process of dying and rebirthing, which is always uncomfortable and often painful.
It takes courage to surrender to these cycles. And yet, there isn't any choice. The question is: how much are you willing to suffer?

This is probably the biggest insight from all this:
I've outgrown him. I've outgrown the people he attracts.
I was willing to die and be reborn, no matter how much discomfort and pain I needed to experience. I had my rock bottom, and that rock bottom taught me that life is always good to me if I allow it to be. I wasn't willing to suffer anymore.

I was definitely broken when I met him.
We needed each other and fed on each other's egos.

But I've grown. I dealt with most of my stuff. And I'm still dealing with my stuff. It's a way of life. I've always been someone who worked on myself. I'm always a work in progress. And my tolerance for discomfort and pain is growing with me. With my tolerance for discomfort and pain, I learn to hold space for difficult emotions, not only for myself but also to hold others in theirs.

In my brokenness, I was willing to live with someone broken. And that's not an issue if one wants to grow. But it is an issue if one cannot let go of the brokenness because growing is too scary.

And because of this, I rather doubt that he will ever come back. The AP might be exactly the level of brokenness he needs to maintain his status quo. Of course, life will always challenge us toward healing, but he has a lot of strength and willpower to resist that natural movement.

I can see that being so attached to one's brokenness prolongs MLC. MLC is like this huge wake-up call, a chance to start growing, to let go of resistance, even though it seems that MLCers need to go into the ultimate resistance first (Escape & Avoid / Replay).

Shocks Sis shared that she believes while being in MLC, the inner child is healing. I think Hearts Blessing described something similar in her work: re-visiting "the children" so that those parts can be addressed and integrated.

But that would mean that this is maybe the very first time my H is really growing in adulthood, and it probably has to be through MLC because, without the brain changes, limerence chemicals, and the emotional cycling and craziness, he probably would keep on resisting to heal and grow.

Can we say that MLC is actually a kind of mechanism of life to force someone to grow? Is life trying to overpower our spouses' resistance so that they have no choice but to grow, to surrender to the cycle of death and rebirth?

I can see that if they still resist, they can become very ill or even die. Life just doesn't support anything other than cycles of birth, growing, dying, and rebirthing. There isn't something like a standstill to just keep what you think you have. That's unnatural.

There's so much beauty in being able to hold more discomfort and pain. It allows us to hold that space for others, so that they can learn to be with these difficult emotions, too. And so everyone can pay it forward. But foremost, we learn how to BE with ourselves. LOVE ourselves and our own perfectly imperfect humanness.

But if you're running away from it, you run away from your own innate nature, the very being that you are. You deny yourself that inner strength and power, that self-love. You reject what makes you human, your sensitivity and your empathy.
And so you will reject others before they reject you.

In my case, it was only a matter of time before I would start rejecting my H. Because I've outgrown him and he wasn't willing to grow. And he must have felt that, deep inside, that anxiety and nervousness, that resentment that was building up inside because I changed the game by growing so much, and he wasn't willing to play. It might not have been part of our initial "deal," our trauma bond.

It was inevitable.
I was willing to give him more time than he was willing to give me.
But time would've run out anyway. His process would've continued anyway. His process started long before MLC, as was mine. Life always steers us toward healing through these cycles of growing, dying, and rebirthing.

He hates me for it, but it's all on him. It's his personal relationship with life itself, that he's resisting here. I have nothing to do with it. If I had anything to do with it, it's that life challenged him through me to surrender. And he didn't take it. He ran away.

The level of discomfort and pain he ran from, he just amplified it with a load of suffering instead. And that is his choice. All his choice. And yet, it might not have been a choice at all. It might have been exactly what needed to happen, because there wasn't any other way — many MCLers talk about this overwhelming compulsion that they cannot fight. It was meant to be.

So now I'm here, and he is there. Our lives run different paths now, and I don't know if they will ever cross again.
This is the big tragedy of being human 💔

The good thing is: that I'm still growing. And I was listening to a podcast of Jeremie Lotemo hearing him say: you attract your same level of emotional maturity. So I guess, no matter if my H will come back or not, I'm not lost. There's a life ahead of me in which I will attract the same level of emotional maturity, and it's already happening, the moment I was willing to shift my focus from my H's crisis to my own life, my own being.

So, who knows what life has in store for me. It might be more beautiful than I could ever imagine. Because, if you continue to grow and go through these cycles of death and rebirth, that is exactly what you reap: a rich and full life, filled with experiences of what it is to be human, becoming a more emotionally mature and authentic version of you, meeting more emotionally mature and authentic versions of others 🙏🏻

Life is not against us; life is FOR us.
It's not about the destination; it's about the journey itself.

By the way, the destination is always death, so who would want that if there's still so much more to live for? We just don't know what that is yet or what that looks like!
Some of us do know, though, and can talk to us from that place — let's listen to them!

The journey might really suck at times but that, too, shall pass and we will learn from it and grow ♥️ It's through the hardships in life that we learn what it is to enjoy life, otherwise we wouldn't value anything and take everything for granted. If we cannot learn to enjoy life in the difficult moments, we will never really be able to treasure the beautiful moments.

Don't give up. We can do this 💪🏻

[amazinglove]

What a beautiful and insightful post! Reading this many, many times. Your wisdom here is breathtaking.

[xyzcf]

Thank you for sharing your insightful post. It reminds me of one of my favourite quotes by Anais Nin, and there are a few others which express similar thoughts:

“And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom.

Life is a process of becoming, a combination of states we have to go through. Where people fail is that they wish to elect a state and remain in it. This is a kind of death.

Living never wore one out so much as the effort not to live.

Life is truly known only to those who suffer, lose, endure adversity and stumble from defeat to defeat."

In my healing and growth journey, I resonated with the first quote. 

Thanks again. We all are here to learn and support one another.

[MadLuv]

Thank you for sharing and that is what we call doing your own work.  You are well on your way to healing and surviving the craziness that is the MLC crisis.  In my opinion the more you cab see yourself and your MLCer  with clear vision you can move forward in the most healthy way in the most unhealthiest situation.

[Inanna]

Thank you, guys 
And beautiful quote, xyzcf!

—

Posted this in the Facebook group this morning:

I'm not convinced it is MLC anymore (but it could).
I think he is Avoidant and always was. I just didn't recognize the signs. But now, it's all becoming clear. The more I move through my grieving process, the more clarity comes.

1. he cheated on his girlfriend to be with me, 23 years ago. I kinda suppressed those memories but recently re-read our letters from the first year we were together, and it's all in there.

2. he's never been good at setting boundaries, expressing his feelings, and asking for what he needs. I did all the work, and he just manipulated me to get what he wanted, mostly passive-aggressively, by adding stress and anger, until I learned coping strategies to prevent him from getting stressed and angry.

3. his fear of rejection is out of this world. He will always reject others before they can reject him. It's like a sixth sense for him.

4. the better I do, the worse he does. The moment I started taking greater care of myself and stopped accommodating his comfort zone, he started withdrawing and he withheld his affection for me. That's abuse.

5. our dynamic was also one of projective identification. I just internalized whatever he couldn't deal with, and so I dealt with it for him, so that he could be comfortable, while I was going through hell. Everything always became my problem, and he's now using it to blame me for all the "drama" in our relationship. It cost me a lot.

6. in the 23 years we've been together, I've grown so much, and that was our downfall. Because he couldn't play out the same dynamics anymore, he was "forced" to look for another person to play this game with. He had at least 3 EAs that I know of before he got into a PA that led to BD. He hasn't grown in those years. He avoided growing because it was too scary and uncomfortable for him.

7. I never really knew what was going through his head and heart. He was always a master in keeping that for me. I'm convinced I don't even know half of his story. I hardly know anything about his teenage years and the years before he met me. If I'd known, I probably would've noticed this pattern a lot sooner. This is what he does best, all to protect that comfort zone and repeat the pattern, because this is his way of surviving. No one is allowed to come in between him and this survival mechanism. It's all he knows since he was a child. And he suffered severe traumas that reinforced these mechanisms.

Using MLC as an explanation, for me, was just my coping mechanism to be able to survive post-BD. It kept me going. I needed to "ease into" the realization that I was married to an Avoidant who couldn't seem to deal with his own stuff, and I was the perfect person for him to take that on and carry it for him.

I developed an anxiety disorder because I carried way more than my system and my body could handle. It was a subconscious drive and dynamic in our relationship, but now, I've woken up from it.

He's now going to play out the same dynamics with the AP. She is who I was when I met my H. It's what he needs to do to survive because he's not handling and working through his childhood traumas. It will go on until he's ready to finally allow himself to feel his own pain, but he's definitely not there yet, and a lot of people never get to that point.

The AP, his parents, and his close friends (and not many are left) are all enabling this. The AP doesn't know better. She will learn over time. She will be in the same position as I was.

His parents and friends are attached to their own comfort zones and thus they need him to continue this pattern so that they can also continue their patterns. I was always the one threatening that. And so they needed to reject me, too, but they couldn't as long as my H was with me. Now they have a free pass to fully reject me, and they all feel relieved.

I'm proud of myself that I can live a different life now. I have learned and am still learning about this. I will never stop growing and learning. I'm the eternal student and I always was. I'm surrounding myself with people who match my level of emotional maturity, and I'm breaking this pattern for myself.

I still have a lot of healing to do, but I'm on the right path.
I think, though, that I'm no longer Standing. I will go through the divorce that he wants and will make sure I can thrive again (I already do when I don't have to deal with H). I have a wonderful support network and wonderful friends. I get a lot of fulfillment and satisfaction out of my work.

Since BD, I never had a moment of anxiety again. Fear of the future, yes, which is normal when you're shocked into a new existence. But no anxiety whatsoever.
I feel so much more myself now. I feel so much better. I feel free.

I still love my H, but I can't be with him. And I don't see how he will change into a person who can have healthy relationships. A miracle would have to happen. He was able to protect his comfort zone for 46 years. He can do this for another 30 or 40 years if he wants to.

His life will get worse with every day he's repeating this pattern. But he has a lot of energy, willpower, and stubbornness to make sure his comfort zone is protected, even if life will make him sick and make him lose the people around him who truly care for him. He knows how to make people work for him — he's a hot-shot consultant/manager — so I'm not going to wait for him to wake up because that might never happen.

I'm 44 years old. I have the second half of my life still before me. And I will enjoy this second half. I will live it to the fullest, reaping the fruits of my inner labor. My life will be totally different from his.

Of course, I wish him to wake up. I wish him to be able to experience true love. It starts with beginning to love himself. I would wish that for everyone because the world would be a better place. But life is short and needs to be lived. If we are meant to be together, then we will find each other again, but that is totally out of my hands.

It could still be MLC on top of the whole Avoidant thing; it doesn't matter. What matters is that I learn what I need to learn so that I can break the pattern I was in for 23 years. Because I deserve better. That's all I care about now. That's why all this happened. It didn't happen to me; it happened FOR me so that I could learn and grow into the person I need to be.

I would rather think it is me who went through a Midlife Transition. He's still the same old person. I've woken up from that and transitioned into the second half of my life.

—

I also added in the comments:

I believe this happened to me because I have something really essential to learn about myself and why I was with such a person. If I want to be treated better in the future, I also need to put in the work to avoid a repetition of my own patterns.

I can't tell if he is suffering from MLC. He did cheat on his girlfriend with me 23 years ago, and is now doing it to me with his AP. I think he's been suffering all his life. I don't think this is different. It's just that I was willing to accommodate and please him until I didn't anymore. That changed our dynamics. If that dynamic would've changed 10 years ago, he would've dropped the bomb on me 10 years ago. If I would've kept up my own patterns, then it would've happened in the future. It doesn't matter. The only thing I know is that I'm probably going through my own midlife transition, and this is part of what I need to learn to make this transition. He might still go through his midlife, I don't know, but I don't see him doing anything different than he always did. I'm the one who changed, not him.

—

This really feels like a breakthrough for me. It puts so much in perspective, like I can now really grieve also for what was but isn't anymore (and probably never was, because I was also blinded by my own patterns). It sets me free in a way and at the same time, I can look at my H and see him for who he was/is and have compassion. This is not a man I want to spend the second half of my life with. And I cannot expect him to change just because I did. I need to let go. My life is good as it is without him now. I can just be myself, express the person I am today. I can't do that when he's around. He can't manage it. He can't hold space for that.

I don't know if our paths will ever cross again. Maybe a miracle will happen and he will move through his own traumas and break the patterns. He could. But realistically, seeing how much time it took me to move through my own traumas and break my own patterns (more than 10 years, if it's not been longer even), life's too short. I'm letting him go and just trust that God has a plan. I don't need H in my life.

I'm not planning on dating, though. I have no interest in other men. I'm still married and I'm honoring those vows. And it will probably take me a few years to fully move through the grieving process and integrate all these lessons. So, if there's Standing involved, it's just me Standing for myself, Standing for my own integrity. I trust God and follow His guidance. He has heard my prayers and is giving me all these insights. He has opened my eyes to my own part in this marriage and I'm accepting it as my inner work and process.

I wrote an e-mail to H and I don't expect any answer. But I felt I wanted to be honest about what I learned about myself and let him know that I let him go. I'm fully trusting my intuition. This feels like a huge step to me and a breakthrough. I can let go of MLC now and just let it be. I cannot know if this is MLC anyway. Only time will tell.

[amazinglove]

wow. lots of wisdom and insight here. Really smart.

Do you think you will change your mind on any of this?

You seem so healed and so fast! Amazing.

[Inanna]

Hi amazinglove,
I don't think I'm going to change my mind on this.

Today, I had a meeting with our business lawyer and my H to talk about possible scenarios concerning our business in the context of H's divorce.
Yesterday evening, because I felt I needed to clear the air for myself before going to this appointment today, I sent my H an e-mail in which I shared my latest breakthroughs using clear language such as "I let you go" and "I don't expect you to change just because I changed," etc. To let him know where I stand now and that I can see that he needs different things in his life than I do and vice versa. I also set some boundaries such as: "I'm okay with you e-mailing and texting me, preferably for practical stuff, but it's too soon for me to meet you F2F and hear your voice on the phone (unless it's an emergency)", and I explained why (because I need to emotionally detach more first).

I shared with him in that e-mail that I'm now in a place of more acceptance that our marriage is over and that he needs to be with someone else (especially now that I see his patterns). And I confirmed that it's me who changed and not him. That I'm seeing him now with different eyes and that I can see that he is still the same person, but that I have changed and that I can't be the person he needs me to be. I shared a tiny little bit about the patterns I saw in our marriage, both mine and his.

It felt like the air has really cleared up. But I was still a bit nervous to go to the meeting today. My father was with me, that helped, especially in the beginning.

When I walked into the conference room and saw my H sitting at the table, I expected that I would feel triggered like I used to, but I didn't. I felt calm, collected and relatively at ease. I saw him sitting there, and I saw my H like he's always been. And I could also see that this is not a man. This is a boy. He's frozen in time. But he has always been frozen. I just didn't see it. I felt no attraction whatsoever. I felt a strange kind of ... friendship? I don't know. It's not really friendship... a familiar feeling of "this is the man who I spent half of my life with" kind a familiarity which felt safe to me, but is not what I want anymore. Because I know I can't be the person I am today with him. He still wants my old version, from before our relationship dynamic changed, and I can't be that person anymore, not even in friendship. I can only be myself, the person I am today.

And I felt very much like myself, which is a first since BD.
And I could feel compassion for him, the — I don't know — somewhere between 8 and 17 year old boy maybe? That's when his most severe traumas happened on top of the CEN he already suffered. Maybe he's going back and forth between those ages, I don't know. But he has this radiance, boyish, not a man of 46. I believe he always had that. He never changed. I changed. I was that girl who now grew up. I need a man in my life, not a boy. He apparently needs a girl in his life, not a woman.

I felt no physical attraction either. He's not a bad looking man, but because of his boyish radiance, I don't feel that attraction anymore. I think I will feel attraction with men acting like their age in emotional maturation. And I cannot expect this from my H. He never showed me that. I see that now. Maybe one day he will. But I don't think that will happen soon. He can continue like this for many years to come. I don't want that. It's not healthy for me.

We had the meeting and everything went great. We have the right person to guide us through H's divorce. And I still call it H's divorce but I know I will be a divorced woman within x amount of time. I feel that I'm also getting ready to call my H my STBXH. Not right now, but it's coming. And I'm at peace with it.

Then something happened during the meeting. At a certain point we were discussing the financial agreement for me so that I could keep my steady income (payed by our business) for a number of years. But it depends on the lives of our dogs. I need the agreement until the dogs pass away, so that I can finally move to a smaller, more affordable place and get myself a fulltime job. I cannot do that with two big dogs to care for. H knows this.

So, I was asking our lawyer that if the dogs would come to pass before the minimum number of years that we were discussing, that the arrangement could be disbanded, etc.
My H suddenly said: "I don't want that. Even if the dogs would come to pass away sooner, I want you to have that money. I want to keep paying for you until that minimum number of years is reached. I'm the one who ended the relationship. Not you. I'm responsible for making sure that you can thrive again and I know you will need the money to build a life for yourself."

Both my father and our lawyer were surprised. But H insisted.
I started to cry because I was so moved by his gesture. I asked what the AP thought of that. My H said: "I don't care. It's my money. And we've been together for 23 years. You deserve it, especially after what I did."

I don't know why he wants it, if it's because of guilt or if it's because he genuinely cares or because limerence is fading or he hopes to one day come back, or something else. This is what I stopped doing: trying to guess or analyze what is going on in my H's head and heart. I just accept it. I'm grateful for it. I thanked him. My father thanked him as well. I don't need to know why. This is helping me and he's willing to. That's all I need to know. I let go.

Our lawyer was positively surprised and informed us that we won't need a mediator to finalize the divorce. He can help us put everything in paper to take to the notary to make it official. He said he was impressed by how we handled things. And that he would help us out to make sure I'm fully protected and that we can live separate lives (practically/financially) so that we would succeed in the years that we still have to "work together."

My H is not a bad guy. He just has these patterns that connected with mine through a trauma bond. And that trauma bond is coming to a resolve now. Or better said: it's coming to a resolve for me, while H is continuing his patterns with someone else.

I feel at peace. There's still grief, of course. Some things still hurt deeply. But I feel this is more closure than I ever had so far. And H is willing to meet me halfway. Maybe my e-mail from yesterday helped. Maybe that has put pressure off of him. It definitely has put the pressure off of me.

When we walked to our cars afterwards, H asked me if it would be okay that he would stay with our animals while I was gone from the house. In that way, I can go out more and I won't have to constantly watch the clock to be home in time. E.g., when I go to church on Sunday and afterwards to my parents. He just wants to stay with the dogs while I'm away, spend time with them, even do some work around the house (which is a rental that's in both our names and for which he's paying half of the costs still).

I said "yes." I won't give him the key permanently, but I'll drop the key in the mailbox, and he has a key of the mailbox.
I'm glad he wants to spend time with the dogs. And again, it takes pressure off of me. I can enjoy my trips and visits to family more this way because I know someone is taking care of the animals.

It seems that, because I stopped trying to put my H in the MLC box and just opened my eyes to who he is now, he can just be who he is now. It's the same man in my sitch, so this might be different for your spouse, of course. And I can be who I am now, and I'm not the same person he was married to. He can't be with the person I am now, because then he would have to deal with his stuff, and for some reason, he can't or won't or isn't able to. So, I move out of the way. I live my life. And apparently, we can still come to arrangements that work for the both of us. So, I guess we're now co-parents of our animals, while, before (after BD until now), it's was just me and he didn't seem interested in the animals.

I think he was always interested in the animals, but the fact that he can only get to the animals through me is what held him back. Because I could not let him go. I couldn't accept him for who he is. Now that I can, the pressure is off. He has a clear path now. No booby traps or unexpected outbursts anymore. He can relax. I won't jump on him. He can just be who he is.

It's so fascinating. I hope we can continue this way.
But this also means that I'm probably no longer Standing. I think it's time to just continue to move forward with my life and leave H to his own life. I don't think he will come back. He has found a "girl" and doesn't want to be with a woman. He will repeat the patterns and that is his right. I cannot change that. And I don't want to be "second choice" or "the only choice" when things fail with the AP or with women in general because he can't find someone who will accommodate his patterns. I think he knows that it won't work with me if he doesn't grow up first. But the latter is not something he will be able to do in a short notice. If it took me more than 10 years to move through my patterns and grow up, and I'm someone who always had a lot of determination to do inner work, I went on and off in therapy since I was 16, he's not like that, so it'll probably take double that amount of years, if not more. Life's too short.

So, I just keep following God's guidance — and God has been good to me lately — and I'll see where I "end up." No way to know. Miracles can still happen. But I let go.

And because of all the above, I don't think I will change my mind. I don't think this is part of cycling like I experienced after BD.
I think this is the new me. I think this is clarity.
But of course, there are no certainties in life other than everything is always moving 
I'm not attached to this story. We'll see what happens next.