[Helpnewc]

NAS,

I think that is a good point. I often think my MLCernis treating me badly but she is just not being loving towards me. I just want that so much that I see indifference as bad.

It is just no fun. I think. We can name it.

Thank you

[Inanna]

Good points, Nas.
You're right. It is indifference for most of it. But also lies. I caught him lying again quite recently. Although, one would call that lying to themselves to justify behavior, and therefore, also lying to others. So yeah... what is it, right?
It's not treating me badly like he did during our R with the withdrawing, the monstering, and the betrayal/cheating. It is different now.

[Inanna]

He just monstered at me.
He was coming by to pick up the dog. I thought I would be strong enough this time. We never really had a fight f2f, only via phone.
But the first thing he asked when he came in was: "how are you?"
And I didn't have an answer. And so I asked him: "Did you still want to tell me something?"
Because a while ago, he sent me an e-mail that he wanted to talk to me about something, but I wasn't sure whether I wanted that or was ready for.

Capital mistakes.
Because his response was: "Wel, I don't know, because every time I speak to you or see you, you end up sending me these nasty messages afterwards."

And I just blew up.
And we had that stupid R conversation again.
That he just felt I didn't do anything to make his life easier, even though he shared with me how stressful it was to be the sole provider.
But that's not what I recall.

I recall that he kept telling me that he wanted to give me all the space to find my passion and build a career. And I worked so hard to get some place but it didn't work out most of the time.

But apparently, I should've taken his stress as a signal that I needed to step up and find a fulltime job and make sure he could stay home for six months or so.
Which is something he NEVER asked me, NEVER told me, NEVER said to me how much he was struggling with it.

It's like someone accessed his mind and told him that I was just lazy or unwilling or that I should've come up with a plan myself, sacrifice myself, because I should've known how much he was struggling, and I must have been this awful person who just profited from a nice man who wanted to do everything for me, but had a wife who didn't want to do everything for him.

"And this is exactly why I didn't ask about the dogs. Because I knew this would happen. Not because I don't care about them."
That. Now it's also my fault that he can't see the dogs because I can't keep it together. I'm to blame for everything, apparently.

WHAT IS THIS?

This is the first time that I actually SAW him monstering right in my face.
And I just lost it. Completely.

The monster was always contained within phone calls, which I have stopped having many weeks ago, because I knew it was monster and that it was just not getting anywhere.
And then the monster was only visible in texts and e-mails because his writing style would change and he would get very impatient, and so I went "dark" earlier this month.

And now this?

My God... I was just about to reply to more of what you were saying, Nas, and how I probably mis-interpreted his current behavior to be "bad" because I just have so much pain, like Helpnewc wrote, with his indifferent behavior while I'm still mourning the loving and caring person he was to me before MLC, and how I can't expect him to be that person anymore, because we're not in a relationship anymore.

But now... after meeting monster for the first time f2f... I don't know.
He really doesn't seem to be himself, or... I missed a lot during our marriage.

The only guess I can take is that he seemed to have hid so much from me, about how he felt in the past years, about our relationship, about me, which is exactly script MLC and the upcoming depression he eventually ran away from.

He yelled at me at a certain point: "What do you expect from me?"

And I couldn't answer.
And then he just went on monstering.

And then, at the end, I just said: "What I expect from you? Well, I don't know. Because I have never done something like you did to me. I've never experienced something like this before. There isn't anything within me that can actually get to that place of knowing what one should do after doing something like that to another person. How can I possibly know? I don't do that to other people. So, you tell me what you think you should do after you did something like that. What would actually be appropriate? Because, this ain't it. Maybe ask your two wonderful therapists; maybe they know."

And I concluded, this time to his face, that we can't see each other like this anymore. NC.

I went into the kitchen, and he just gathered the dog and left.
And I cried so hard... I'm still crying.

I don't know how to move forward honestly. I'm okay when I don't have to deal with him...

I so thought I was detached enough to be able to keep it together after we haven't seen each other for so long. But I didn't expect the "How are you?" question. At all. He never asked that question since the first weeks after BD when I was still so much in shock.

This is the man I will have to deal with for the next 5 to 10 years of still working together in the business to keep my steady income, until the dogs passed away and I can finally move and have my own place? This is the man I need to go through divorce mediation with?

I thought he just made a mistake and is emotionally immature, but now has learned his lesson.
But as it seems, he still can't be honest with himself, he still re-writes our marriage, and he still monsters.
And I thought he wasn't blaming me. He said it was not about me, in his last long message. But he does blame me. And in his head, it's about me. He projects so much on me; his whole incapability of asking for what he needs, for sharing what he feels. It only comes out in monster when he feels trapped, frustrated, or backed against the wall.

And of course, that's all my fault because I can't keep it together when he's around. He puts that all on me.
If I was able to just be "normal" even though he acknowledged that I can't because of the pain and he understands, and he even congratulates me for how "well" I'm handling everything (mixed messages, WTF?), at the same time, it's all my fault that he needs to say all these things.

Boy, I was ready to let go the whole MLC thing, because I thought, maybe that isn't it... but surely, it is it.
But of course, it doesn't change anything. MLC or not, I need to detach asap, the best that I can, and move forward. I think meeting monster f2f is definitely motivating me even more to do so.

But it hurts. It hurts so much. It's excruciating to see him like this.
And I don't know if there is still an ounce of the old him somewhere in there. I can't really see it. He looks the same, it's his voice, but not his words, not his actions.
I just can't believe this is who he is right now. It's 180 degrees from who he was.
I would give anything to see the old him again... but he's gone. He's long gone.

Then again, I was feeling so much better in the past weeks, so even though this is a step backwards, I know there's a lot of progression, too.
But it frustrates me to see myself in this way. This is not me. This is just the pain and the trauma and the cycling back and forth because I've lost the ground beneath my feet and I'm rebalancing.
This sucks so much. Unbelievable. But yet, I have to believe in myself, and my integrity is still intact. This is not on me. I did the best I could during our R/M and gave more than probably anyone would. He just failed to share and be emotionally mature about it. He obviously has issues with speaking his mind, probably out of fear of rejection. I don't know. It's not my trip. He needs to find that out for himself. I have my own journey now.

I just want to type a huge curse word right now, but I won't. But I'm thinking it. I'm yelling it in my mind.
No words to describe what I feel right now.

[Reinventing]

It is hard to find the words. I let out sounds I'd never made before or since. The pain is indescribable.

This sucks so much. Unbelievable. But yet, I have to believe in myself, and my integrity is still intact. This is not on me.

That is correct. Believe in yourself. Learn what helps you heal. It's not a straight path, but you will get there. You won't always feel this way. It does get better.

[Inanna]

I actually had signs before he came. My blood pressure was rising, I had red cheeks, and I felt anger. I tried to let it go by moving, punching, screaming in a pillow.
I had that the last time I saw him (but that has been a while ago). My blood pressure was up but I only found out the day after. After some stress release exercises, I felt better.

But now, I was aware before he came, what impact it already had on me.
And I sincerely thought I was ready to just do the "exchange," just be friendly and business-like.

Stupid "how are you" question. D'oh.
Feels like being emotionally ambushed, lol. But I'm sure he didn't mean it in that way. He was just being friendly.

And now, of course, he has another confirmation of why he needed to leave our marriage. Although we never had fights like this. Ever. We sometimes blew off steam and would talk about it afterward. Never parted or went to bed before it was reconciled.

This is a whole different dynamic. It's nothing like we had during our marriage.
Of course, the betrayal, pain, and trauma are now also part of it.

But something in me is also glad this happened because now I can see more clearly that it is not about me. I can see even more clearly that he is definitely struggling with something I never had a problem with before: sharing and talking about feelings, asking for what you truly need, and being emotionally vulnerable with each other.

He's working on it, is what he told me since BD. Of course, he's working on it, but he chose to have a new relationship before having learned these lessons. Very mature of him.

My side of the story is about giving myself to people who are emotionally unavailable, expecting them to be available. About an abandonment wound that is ripped open all over again.
And yet, I know I was in the process of letting go of those patterns and behaviors. Still, it is a wake-up call for me, that I cannot tolerate this in my life anymore, from no one.

The first person who abandoned me was my mother. And she came around so much in the past years and is now owning that part by being here for me, being a rock and even more of a mother, emotionally, than she ever was when I was still a child and a teenager. Same for my father, who was never really around much, and wasn't so interested in parenting, but now, after going through some rough times himself, understood what he needed to learn.

I'm so grateful for that because it has given me a safety net when I fell after BD. It has given me back my family, whom I thought I had lost over the years.
And it has made me capable of making new connections with people that are much more healthy for me. That already started in the years before BD, and apparently, simultaneously with my H sliding into depression and feeling unsafe himself. Maybe because I wasn't enabling the emotional immaturity anymore? I think he still needed me to be the same, enabling person with weak boundaries for him to feel safe. He probably has found someone else now to replace the old me, as he can't seem to accept and embrace the new me. He said in his long e-mail that I was becoming too strong for him.

So yeah... this is actually good. I might not have handled it in the way I would like to handle it, because it is too soon with the current pain and trauma still needing healing, but for me, the message is clear: I'm not tolerating it any longer. If he chooses to re-write our marriage and act in this way, I'm out. I need to keep my distance for my own protection against further harm by him.

Here I go again. Back into NC (or at least, as "dark" as is possible in our situation). Healing. Detaching. Hopefully keeping myself from contacting him or reacting to him.
Reset. Go. Forward moving again.

And many thanks for reading/replying, your support and encouragement, Reinventing (((hugs)))

[Inanna]

After he dropped off the dog, he was hesitant to leave, so I asked if he wanted to say something, and he immediately apologized for yelling at me, and then went through the list of what he yelled at me, acknowledging everything was on him and not on me, and that he's learning, but it takes time. And he, again, congratulated me for the way I'm handling it all (which was the first time he said it to my face instead of through message/e-mail).

I expressed again my feelings of pain around not having a say in how our R went and that I couldn't guess what was going on inside him if he didn't clearly express it or even used "hard limits" (he's into rough sex these days with the AP, so I deliberately used a term he now knows very well), and he again, acknowledged that he didn't and that he's working on it.

(It's frustrating because he would always be the one saying during our R that I needed to express my needs in clear and loud words, as "men" can't read minds, lol. Guess "men" expect women to read minds, though  )

I then explained that that is why I feel compelled to think he is going through something, call it MLC or something else, because he acknowledges everything, including the depression. He went on saying that he is not in a depression at this time, and I said, yes, because you're in love right now, but it might come back. He said that he would slay that monster when that time comes, and then I explained: sure you will, but it could also be that once you're out of the infatuation, everything will come back, not only the depression but also everything he has been running away from and suppressing, including his feelings for me. So, what am I supposed to do, I asked him?

And he didn't have an answer other than saying that he understood but that it could take years, or even more than 10 years, who knows, and that he thinks I deserve a great life.
I replied that I'm surely moving forward with my life and if life is telling me to move on, I will. And he said that I'm handling it very well and that he can see that I'm moving forward.

And that was it. He needed to go because he expected a friend to come over and wouldn't want that friend to arrive before closed doors. Awkward goodbyes but he said that he wants to talk in the future but wants to give me time to heal, so that we can have more conversations like the one we just had, instead of us reacting at each other like earlier.

This. Is. So. Confusing.

But still, I'm glad we had that second conversation. I was willing to just take over the dog and let him go, but he clearly didn't want to part ways without apologizing (but also needed a push; my intuition pushed me to ask).

And that is the man I know. But the man I know is definitely going through something.
Time will tell what that "something" is...

After he left, I figuratively pushed the reset button and I'm now going back to detaching and GAL.

And so the story continues...
(But I feel more at peace now. Still, I wrote Acorn's words on many post-its: HAVE NO EXPECTATIONS. Need to practice that more.)

[marvin4242]

Please do not hear any judgement in what I am about to ask, rather something to ponder. If you can internalize that he is in an unstable and bad state, if you can internalize that almost anything you say, or he says, doesn't matter, and if you believe that interacting with him will cause more harm than good, then ask yourself what is your motivation for doing it?

We have all been there, believe me. And there are multiple reasons that we may have to admit to ourselves and accept first.

[Reinventing]

Inanna, glad you feel a bit better after the apology and more settled so it's easier to focus on you and your healing.

You'll find what works for you and will get more stable as you heal.

[Inanna]

Please do not hear any judgement in what I am about to ask, rather something to ponder. If you can internalize that he is in an unstable and bad state, if you can internalize that almost anything you say, or he says, doesn't matter, and if you believe that interacting with him will cause more harm than good, then ask yourself what is your motivation for doing it?

Thanks, Marvin.
I totally get what you mean.
And I don't know. I just thought I was going to be able to handle it. We never had encounters like this in the past when meeting irl, after BD. Only virtual and phone monstering. He was always calm and distant, acting "normal" when we met. We even had superficial conversations. I didn't think this time would be different. But it was.
And it's been a while since we last saw each other. He's been missing the animals. I'm not going to prevent him from spending time with the animals.

But apparently, I wasn't strong enough to deal with what he was bringing in today. It wasn't an encounter like we usually had. There's definitely something different or something has progressed in his process?

So yeah, it makes me a lot more wary now about future interactions.
It very much feels like a trial-and-error thing to me now. There's no way I could've known how this would go except for actually going through the experience. Because I didn't expect this at all. Otherwise, I would've made sure he could pick up the dog without me being around.

Appreciate the question to ponder on, though.

[Inanna]

Inanna, glad you feel a bit better after the apology and more settled so it's easier to focus on you and your healing.

You'll find what works for you and will get more stable as you heal.

Yeah, the apology definitely made a difference. But still... it's so confusing. Trying to let go of any expectations whatsoever concerning his behavior or state of mind or whatever rollercoaster ride he is on.
I really see this experience as a sign that detachment is truly essential. Blah... I so hate this whole MLC thing.
Thanks for the support!