[Pacman]

Hi all.
Long story.
I was married for 18 years and together for 22 years. 2 sons aged 19 and 21.
I used to drink a fair bit and over the last 4-5 years started drinking more and would be angry (never violent) and never seemed happy.
Looking back at it I was potentially MLC ing myself. My 50th birthday came up in February this year and something in my head said time to change so I started enjoying life and generally being happier.
At the same time I started noticing my wife putting down her phone or turning it off when I entered the room. I challenged her and she said nothing was going on. I didn't believe it so started drinking more to hide from the fears.
In March she mentioned that she had been to see the doctor for womens problems and he diagnosed her as perimenopausal (starting in November). She laughed and said I'm going to be a b****h for the next 7 years.

In April I had enough of my suspicions and checked her phone.........My heart was ripped out ......."I love you" to another man.
She said it was only 2 kisses and after much forcing on my part she eventually defriended him and told him not to contact her.
I suggested counselling and the first session we went to she stated outright "I'm done and we won't be together anymore".
I started my own counselling and saw my doctor for help with my drinking and cut right back and realised it was an emotional crutch.

However I was so angry, hurt and betrayed and we had many arguments during this time.
"I know you're changing but it's too late for me"
"Why did it take for me to what I did before you got help?" (She had been begging me for years.)
"I love you but not in love with you"
"We are only friends" (Speaking about AP).
" I only kissed him twice"
"It was normal"
"I was only thinking of myself"
"Maybe I should have been more careful to not get caught"
"You made me do it"
"I need to find myself"
Fast forward....I left the house for a week to give her space......returning on the Sunday. She moved out that day (June) and it turns out it was the same day that our son had his first child. She rang and said do you want me to pick you up so we can see the grandbaby?

Really? You've just left me, the house and our family and you want me to go with you? BTW our 2 sons and their girlfriends live in our house.

She has written me a letter saying that she didn't like the person I had become and that is fair enough.
Also put in the letter that she still wants to be friends and can't come back because "Will he trust me again?" "Will he start drinking again?" "Will he check on me every time I go out?".
 
We have only caught up once and that was to discuss our son who is having depression. I have begged pleaded and got angry and made all the usual mistakes when someone first separates or finds out about an affair.
During this conversation she told me that she had spoken to AP twice........I felt like another knife had been plunged into my already dead heart.
I questioned her as to whether she was trying to tell me that they were back together or not.......All she would reply was "You wanted honesty......so we have spoken to each other twice." And eventually said no they aren't together.
BTW AP lives with his ex wife and has done so for 10 years.

I have done a lot of self reflection and am improving as a person and am trying to get her to open up to me like she did with her AP ("He listened to me and it was nice"). But no matter what I do it just doesn't seem to get through. If the topic ever comes up it's always the same "I'm not coming back".

I have said I want to support her as I know she is going through a tough time.
"Why would you want to support me after what I've done?"
"AP didn't break up our family, I did"
"Why would you want to support me when I don't want to be with you?"

Because I love you and you supported me for so many years.

She reaches out a couple of times a week to see how I am (It's pretty obvious that I am devastated) and when I have defriended her on Facebook she messages straight away asking why. I have now changed my interactions with her and a few times she has "thanked" me for making it easier to talk to me. She expects and probably is waiting for me to be angry........
1 That I'm not changing.
2. That my changes aren't genuine.
3. To validate her choice to have an affair, leave our house and walk away from the marriage.

She has started going out quite regularly with her "Gal Pals" who tell her she's got this and that sparks are just around the corner.
She has religiously paid a joint loan we have and is also paying for our health insurance (has not removed me for some reason).
Is worried that the boys won't talk to her when "she moves on".
Has most of her gear still at the house and when I offered her financial settlement it was ignored (and it was more than fair). She is living with mutual friends and unfortunately that has damaged my relationship with them.

I know it's been a long road for her to get to this point and know that "if" there is any possibility it would take a long time to resurrect.
I love this woman with all my heart but have no idea who she is or who she has become.

There is probably more and I may add to this later but I am at a complete loss.
 

[forthetrees]

You are in pain as is she. A valid course of action would be to leave her be for the time and work on your anger management and drinking. Overcoming those two will take a while and will consume much of your energies. Please check out Marshall Rosenberg´s site on Non-violent Communication. Sounds like she would need consistent change over time to change her mind. In this case, time is your friend.

[JohnnyBravo]

Hi, Pacman

I'm new to this myself, but you're in the right place. I don't know if my W ran due to MLC, menopause, or menopause-triggered MLC, but things went downhill around the time she started taking hormones for perimenopause.

You'll get lots of support here. Read the articles, and there are guides for new folks as well.

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1149.0

Sorry to see you here.

JB

[Pacman]

Just to add, my wife also has just starting to catching up with a mutual female friend who also was in a similar situation 2 years ago.......menopause and an affair.
She did go back to her husband after 2 months but only stayed for another 18 months and left again "for good" this time.
"I get what your wife is going through".....yeah great. I know that my W is an adult but enablers are definitely not on my side.

Same as the mutual friend couple she is staying with. Free board and they loaned her a car so she has no financial or "real" consequences to her leaving.

I have absorbed the majority of the financial position and do not have the ability to go out "partying" as she is. BUT I will stand strong for my sons, their girlfriends, the 1 granddaughter and the grandson that will arrive in November.

I will also stand strong for my wife (as I know she is not a bad person, just made a bad choice), especially when considered that her 1st husband cheated on her.

[Standing Strong]

Sorry you find yourself here Pacman (fantastic name BTW  )

It's going to take a good long while, try to be kind to yourself. Sounds like a lot of communication, that will only serve to push her away and embolden her. There is no talking which can reverse this, not now, not for a long time.
She thinks she wants to go, let her go..... not give up, not walk away, just fade out from her world. In time she'll figure it out or she won't.
Time to look after you and your family. She will come to miss it, or she won't.

Those bad influences are maddening, the thing about it is: They eventually figure out these are not good or useful people, if they are left alone to figure it out. This is just the start, you're going to go thru a whole lot and so is she.

Write what you're going thru, it's going to be a lot. Tons of very good people here and a lot of experience.

You're among friends now 

-SS

[Pacman]

She thinks she wants to go, let her go..... not give up, not walk away, just fade out from her world. In time she'll figure it out or she won't.
Time to look after you and your family. She will come to miss it, or she won't.

Those bad influences are maddening, the thing about it is: They eventually figure out these are not good or useful people, if they are left alone to figure it out. This is just the start, you're going to go thru a whole lot and so is she.

I know that's what I have to do but it's so maddening and frustrating.
If she is so deadset, I have offered  her a payout (and it was more than fair) and it was totally ignored.
I'm of the thinking that she doesn't know what she wants......just what she doesn't want 
 

[UrsaMajor]

She thinks she wants to go, let her go..... not give up, not walk away, just fade out from her world. In time she'll figure it out or she won't.
Time to look after you and your family. She will come to miss it, or she won't.

Those bad influences are maddening, the thing about it is: They eventually figure out these are not good or useful people, if they are left alone to figure it out. This is just the start, you're going to go thru a whole lot and so is she.

I know that's what I have to do but it's so maddening and frustrating.
If she is so dead set, I have offered  her a payout (and it was more than fair) and it was totally ignored.
I'm of the thinking that she doesn't know what she wants......just what she doesn't want 

If I may be so bold... WHY offer her a pay out? If she is so dead set to go, she's going to go one way or the other. A buy-out offer or "severance pay" if you will may backfire on you. After all, YOU are not the one that wants to run off into Schmoopie Land.

My personal advice would be to get professional advice as to what your options are but to keep your cards close to your chest. You don't have to ACT on the advice you get but having the advice, having the information, having the knowledge may prove to be VERY beneficial in the long run.

Mid-Lifers don't CARE if the LBS makes a "fair" or even a "more than fair" offer. They want what they want and when they want it and, if the offer doesn't meet their expectations, they will either ignore it or go monster. Either way, unless you have been given the power to suddenly be able to taste green with your elbow, you have NO way of knowing what is going in in their heads unless they actually say something about what they want.

As you have found, they are often all about what they DON'T want but that is because figuring out what the DO want is beyond their capabilities and is WAY too much like work (which they don't want to do) and it means that they have to accept that there will be consequences for their choices (which they also do NOT want to deal with or accept or take responsibility for.... )

BTW - I have to say that this may or may not be an MLC in my opinion. If there is a history of alcoholism (and that is what it is - no sugar coating - if alcohol causes a problem in one's life, even if one isn't a daily drinker or a constant sloppy drunk), then it can very well be that it is a reaction... and trust, once broken, takes time to rebuild - in BOTH directions....

[Pacman]

If I may be so bold... WHY offer her a pay out? If she is so dead set to go, she's going to go one way or the other. A buy-out offer or "severance pay" if you will may backfire on you. After all, YOU are not the one that wants to run off into Schmoopie Land.

My personal advice would be to get professional advice as to what your options are but to keep your cards close to your chest. You don't have to ACT on the advice you get but having the advice, having the information, having the knowledge may prove to be VERY beneficial in the long run.

Mid-Lifers don't CARE if the LBS makes a "fair" or even a "more than fair" offer. They want what they want and when they want it and, if the offer doesn't meet their expectations, they will either ignore it or go monster. Either way, unless you have been given the power to suddenly be able to taste green with your elbow, you have NO way of knowing what is going in in their heads unless they actually say something about what they want.

As you have found, they are often all about what they DON'T want but that is because figuring out what the DO want is beyond their capabilities and is WAY too much like work (which they don't want to do) and it means that they have to accept that there will be consequences for their choices (which they also do NOT want to deal with or accept or take responsibility for.... )

It was offered in the early days when I was still angry but having had time to calm down I'm not offering again.
If she was so keen to set herself up and truly move on she would have accepted or counter offered.
She is currently living grass is greener going out partying with her friends whilst living in a spare room of a friends house at the age of 50. No financial responsibilities no nothing to worry about. Hasn't thought passed today.
Can't last forever. She will have to wake up at some stage. One way or the other.

[Pacman]

October 2nd is the 23rd anniversary of our 1st date. It's gunna be hard.

[PJ Ames]

Sorry you're here but I'm glad you found us. This is a place to vent, ask questions, whatever you need to do.

I had a very similar discovery of an affair on my xw's phone - so I know how painful that is. And I know first-hard about those enabling "friends." Absolutely maddening!   

You've already gotten some good advice and you'll get a lot more. All I have to offer is to add my voice to the choir of those saying to work on yourself. YOU are about the only thing you can control right now. So the less you ruminate about things out of your control, the healthier you will be.

Good work seeing a counselor for yourself. And great work getting control of your drinking.

[Pacman]

BTW - I have to say that this may or may not be an MLC in my opinion. If there is a history of alcoholism (and that is what it is - no sugar coating - if alcohol causes a problem in one's life, even if one isn't a daily drinker or a constant sloppy drunk), then it can very well be that it is a reaction... and trust, once broken, takes time to rebuild - in BOTH directions....

I understand my part in this and that's why I accept fault for my actions and have been getting help medically and psychologically.
BUT under no circumstances does that excuse an affair.
She tried to blame me for her choice but I won't wear that.
AND yes trust on both sides has been broken.
I have truly forgiven her as I needed to for myself and spend time on self reflection and improving.

The rest of her actions and behaviours mirror MLC to a tee.

[Pacman]

I posted on my Facebook page that I own my mistakes and don't run away from them and W placed a care emoji on it.......Obviously didn't get the underlying message.

I also put that "I understand, not that you're talking to me but I understand" and she send me a message asking if that was directed at her and that she is talking to me but sorry it's not everyday.

I know they were slight pushes but she still engages at the slightest thing even though she constantly says we aren't getting back together. (not that it has been said for over 6 weeks now)

[HeavenlyFocus]

Hi Pacman,

Sorry for your situation but glad you were able to find this forum.   Agree with the others' advice to focus on yourself and what you can control.  It has been over 1 year since BD and my W is still in her crises.   She seems to be just running away from me as well as other key persons in her life.   I have gotten to a point where I have just accepted that she is broken and detached.   Focused on me and my kids right now.

Wish you all the best and continue to post to journal and seek advice.   This has been very helpful for me.

HF

[Pacman]

Hi Pacman,

Sorry for your situation but glad you were able to find this forum.   Agree with the others' advice to focus on yourself and what you can control.  It has been over 1 year since BD and my W is still in her crises.   She seems to be just running away from me as well as other key persons in her life.   I have gotten to a point where I have just accepted that she is broken and detached.   Focused on me and my kids right now.

Wish you all the best and continue to post to journal and seek advice.   This has been very helpful for me.

HF

Given my brutally honest story including accepting responsibility does my W look like she is in MLC or have I placed my own bias on it?
Opinions gladly taken on board.

Her most recent interactions were asking me why our son was angry with her and that she fears the boys "will not speak to her when she decides to move on". Her AP was a person well known to myself and my son and was from the soccer club my son played at.
My son has categorically told her that if she goes with this guy that he will make them both feel like crap.

[Ready2Transform]

Given my brutally honest story including accepting responsibility does my W look like she is in MLC or have I placed my own bias on it?
Opinions gladly taken on board.

Truthfully, my ex BD'ed me over 10 years ago, and I'll never know for sure if it was MLC, bipolar disorder, limerence with the OW, or whatever was destined to happen due to his bloodline. Eventually you'll define it looking back in the way that makes the most sense. Don't turn yourself inside out trying to figure out what to call it (or if calling it MLC means she'll snap out of it soon). You've been through a ton and had a lot of growth! Focus on YOU and continuing that progress, DESPITE this circumstance you're currently in. You WILL feel better. It will come slowly but surely, but it will never be as bad in the future as it feels right now.

Her most recent interactions were asking me why our son was angry with her and that she fears the boys "will not speak to her when she decides to move on". Her AP was a person well known to myself and my son and was from the soccer club my son played at.
My son has categorically told her that if she goes with this guy that he will make them both feel like crap.

Actions have consequences, but those are her to deal with. Your son has the right to process this situation in his own way, too. I literally never spoke to my mother ever again after she and my father divorced, and it's been 27 years. But that's not always the best way, either. Each situation is unique. Don't focus on what he chooses to do in terms of his relationship with her, as he can't control her any more than you can. Just be a support team for and with your sons. You're all hurting, but you can uplift each other too. Do things you all like to do together. Even if it's just a ritual watching a sports game or a show every week. Sometimes it's the most mundane things that can keep you sane.

And don't try to 'reach' her on social media. We have all done that, and even though you want to be able to express yourself, it tends to take a bit of your power away (and publicly). Instead, when you feel like venting, come here. Get it out where you are among friends who have been there. It will do wonders to keep you off of the emotional rollercoaster.

[Pacman]

It is obvious I have so much to learn (if it is indeed MLC).

[UrsaMajor]

Hi Pacman,

I profusely apologize if my words came across like I was justifying the affair - you are absolutely correct that one does not justify the other.

Like R2T posted, there is really no way, when we are in the thick of the events/crisis, to know if it is "really" an MLC or any one of several other possibilities. Regardless of what we choose to call it at the time, MLC, BatSnotCrazy, BiPolar, whatever, it doesn't change the fact that we have NO control over the actions of our "spouse" (or the Body-Snatcher that looks like the human formerly known as "Spouse.") so all we can do is really do our own mirror work and deal with our own stuff. Those are the things that we can control....

[Pacman]

I know it may have been a bad move .....
but I've put my boundaries out there.
I WILL not accept her talking to him.
Our family is still there.
I have changed and not giving her anger.
I will not wear blame for her affair.


But for my own short term sanity it had to be said,

[marvin4242]

Pac-Man, first and foremost please please give yourself a break and be kind to yourself. Whatever may have happened in the past your wife could and should have engaged you, talked to you, even given boundaries and told you what she needed. You own your own actions but NONE of it justifies hers.

Second right now all you can do is your best. Keeo trying to focus on you, try best you can to not analyze, truth dart, or engage her to make yourself ok. We have all been days and we have all stumbled. But all we can do is pick ourselves back up and try and try again.

Don’t worry about labeling things just now, in time you will know. Or in time you may not care what the label was.

[Standing Strong]

Hey Pacman,

You are both the same age right? 50?

If that's the case, it could be a few things. It could be MLC. That is the tail end of the age group for MLC, but it is possible.
One thing that you mentioned that caught my eye was perimenopausal..... that is very interesting to me.
It seems a bit late for that also, it should be full-on menopause right about now. That can have very similar behaviors to MLC.
Which one is it? We don't know,

I would ask if she has trauma in her past, specifically teens or younger? I would also ask if she has abandonment issues (did her parents divorce in her youth?). Any history of MLC in her family? Some of these may be known, and some could be unknown. I learned at lot about mine during her MLC and I thought I knew everything about my W. Is she having drastic memory problems? Is her personality "flipping" on the turn of a dime? Any monstering? Shark eyes events? Dressing like a teen. Hanging out with teens (or 20's). Reversion to earlier periods in time? Being stuck on issues from her past? These are indications of MLC. Not everyone gets them all, but they will have a combo of sorts. If you aren't seeing any of these, and she is in the present..... then that could be an indication that this is solely menopause.
R2T is so right, you will find a way to categorize it as time goes on as you see and experience more. It's also almost universal for every LBS to question "is my MLC'er having an MLC or is this something else?". Happens all the time. It's also a question that each LBS comes to answer themselves.

I know you're beating yourself up about the drinking. I wouldn't. You know this wasn't a good thing, you will have to forgive yourself and move on from it. Actually you'll have to face all your shortcomings, deal with them, improve, forgive, and move forward. Can't change the past, just be the best you can, improve and move forward. If she's in MLC, she's going to have to do the same. It's not easy, but it has to be done.

So you think you may have been in MLC yourself? This is also very interesting..... and to me, if this is the case.... it supports her being in MLC (IMO). How long do you think you were in it? What were your behaviors while in it? Withdrawn? Irritable? Angry? Depressed without admitting it? IF these are true...... then you could have been kicked out of it because she was going into it (that's also fairly normal, not typical, but normal). There are a lot of male LBS's who believed they were in something before their W was. That just catches my eye.

April was BD, so you're 5 months in. Not time for her to slow down yet, and contact will only prolong her descent. There is no catching them in their fall Pacman. As much as we want to save them, fix them, help them....... they don't want it. We only make it worse. This isn't about you, it's about her. She isn't dong this to hurt you or your family. She is damaged. She will have to fix herself. Maybe she will, maybe she won't. Time will tell.
 
Now is the time to work on yourself Pacman. It's going to be ok, no matter what happens, it's going to be ok. You're going to be connecting dots for a long while. Deep breath and let the mind work out all these things and your emotions. Not a time to act on these things, they are going to churn until they are resolved. You will have to master yourself. You'll have to choose how to work on yourself: How to improve. Find the shortcomings, deal with them, wipe them out. If you were in MLC, figure out what put you there, deal with those issues. Now you get to build the best version of you. She'll choose to return later, or not. You may have an influence on her, but can't choose for her.

So much to face in the opening months and 1st year. A tough road, but you'll get thru it. In time this can become a great blessing if you let it. There is much opportunity.

Keep writing, all that energy, emotion and thought needs to be released. Sometimes the only way to work out something is to vent it, and the issues are legion. 

Be gentle, go slow, deep breaths. Take care of yourself. Learning how to operate alone is a big step. Detachment is not easy but necessary.

-SS

 

[HeavenlyFocus]

Hi Pacman,

You are getting great advice from others.   I have come to accept that my own difficulties may have contributed to my W's MLC but wasn't the primary cause.   All I can do is focus on my life and my own healing while letting my W figure out her life.   Do be kind to yourself and take things one day at time.  It will get easier.

HF

[Pacman]

Hey Pacman,

You are both the same age right? 50?

If that's the case, it could be a few things. It could be MLC. That is the tail end of the age group for MLC, but it is possible.
One thing that you mentioned that caught my eye was perimenopausal..... that is very interesting to me.
It seems a bit late for that also, it should be full-on menopause right about now. That can have very similar behaviors to MLC.
Which one is it? We don't know,

I would ask if she has trauma in her past, specifically teens or younger? I would also ask if she has abandonment issues (did her parents divorce in her youth?). Any history of MLC in her family? Some of these may be known, and some could be unknown. I learned at lot about mine during her MLC and I thought I knew everything about my W. Is she having drastic memory problems? Is her personality "flipping" on the turn of a dime? Any monstering? Shark eyes events? Dressing like a teen. Hanging out with teens (or 20's). Reversion to earlier periods in time? Being stuck on issues from her past? These are indications of MLC. Not everyone gets them all, but they will have a combo of sorts. If you aren't seeing any of these, and she is in the present..... then that could be an indication that this is solely menopause.
R2T is so right, you will find a way to categorize it as time goes on as you see and experience more. It's also almost universal for every LBS to question "is my MLC'er having an MLC or is this something else?". Happens all the time. It's also a question that each LBS comes to answer themselves.

I know you're beating yourself up about the drinking. I wouldn't. You know this wasn't a good thing, you will have to forgive yourself and move on from it. Actually you'll have to face all your shortcomings, deal with them, improve, forgive, and move forward. Can't change the past, just be the best you can, improve and move forward. If she's in MLC, she's going to have to do the same. It's not easy, but it has to be done.

So you think you may have been in MLC yourself? This is also very interesting..... and to me, if this is the case.... it supports her being in MLC (IMO). How long do you think you were in it? What were your behaviors while in it? Withdrawn? Irritable? Angry? Depressed without admitting it? IF these are true...... then you could have been kicked out of it because she was going into it (that's also fairly normal, not typical, but normal). There are a lot of male LBS's who believed they were in something before their W was. That just catches my eye.

April was BD, so you're 5 months in. Not time for her to slow down yet, and contact will only prolong her descent. There is no catching them in their fall Pacman. As much as we want to save them, fix them, help them....... they don't want it. We only make it worse. This isn't about you, it's about her. She isn't dong this to hurt you or your family. She is damaged. She will have to fix herself. Maybe she will, maybe she won't. Time will tell.
 
Now is the time to work on yourself Pacman. It's going to be ok, no matter what happens, it's going to be ok. You're going to be connecting dots for a long while. Deep breath and let the mind work out all these things and your emotions. Not a time to act on these things, they are going to churn until they are resolved. You will have to master yourself. You'll have to choose how to work on yourself: How to improve. Find the shortcomings, deal with them, wipe them out. If you were in MLC, figure out what put you there, deal with those issues. Now you get to build the best version of you. She'll choose to return later, or not. You may have an influence on her, but can't choose for her.

So much to face in the opening months and 1st year. A tough road, but you'll get thru it. In time this can become a great blessing if you let it. There is much opportunity.

Keep writing, all that energy, emotion and thought needs to be released. Sometimes the only way to work out something is to vent it, and the issues are legion. 

Be gentle, go slow, deep breaths. Take care of yourself. Learning how to operate alone is a big step. Detachment is not easy but necessary.

-SS

She had febral convulsions as a child and nearly died.
She definitely is not living in the present.
Definitely perimenopausal when she started the affair.
Her first husband cheated on her and she walked away.
My mid life crisis ....I did get angry was withdrawn and depressed.

[Pacman]

So she tells me she is speaking to AP again "as friends",
I think this is totally disrespectful to our mutual friends as they initially gave a spare bed in the hopes that we would work it out.
Son 19 said to her that AP broke up the family and her response was "no he didn't I did".
I said I was happy for her to talk to me but I have a boundary if she is still talking to him.
She is ambivalent to dealing with any of the reality of this situation.
She is living with mutual friends and living the grass is greener life.
Still has me on joint health insurance and has not dealt with any of the real "hard" decisions.
She is currently driving a car that I'm paying the lease for.
Yeah I know protect myself....everything is documented BUT I don't see why I should have to make the tough choice to force the situation when I'm still standing for my marriage.
Friends say move on, get over it finish it etc but I'm not prepared to do that as a marriage is made or broken by 2 people.
Wanted to come and get some of her stuff 2 weeks ago and asked if I'd rather she did it when I was at work.
Whatever suits you I said...Her gear is still here.

[5hilmerton]

Attaching

[Pacman]

I'm so triggered at the moment.
She has gone out to dinner again.
I can't scratch my a** because if the debts she left plus telling me recently that she is "talking" to him again "as a friend"
Do 23 years mean nothing.....am I not a friend?

[JohnnyBravo]

I'm not sure if they're ambivalent to the situation or just incapable of understanding it. My W could never save money, and seems to think a one-time cash infusion from our divorce will set her up for life. I'm lucky in that regard because we maintained split finances while married.

I imagine your friends will get tired of putting your W up at some point, but I'm not sure any dose of reality is enough when they're still seeing things through crisis-colored glasses.

I'm with you on not taking the initiative to break the marriage. It's not easy.

Hang in there.

JB

[marvin4242]

I'm so triggered at the moment.
She has gone out to dinner again.
I can't scratch my a** because if the debts she left plus telling me recently that she is "talking" to him again "as a friend"
Do 23 years mean nothing.....am I not a friend?

Pacman fwiw I am sorry you are in this place right now. Its completely understandable. It sucks, there is just no other way of putting it or trying to make it sound better. I say this only for you to know its not just you, almost 5 years out I had another one of the same moments, that how can I be so devalued after 24 years. In fact I will write something about it on my thread. Its a very valid question, but sadly the answer is the same one that you have heard: it has nothing to do with you, and everything to do with her.

I also have had the "friend" garbage. In fact my wife even tried to get me and the OM to be friends. The distortions and insanity is really shocking. So as much as you can try to just take care of yourself. It hurts, it may make you angry. Its completely normal and understandable. Just keep reminding yourself this is NOT normal (what she is doing), and take care of yourself.

If it helps for now view her as not someone who is your friend, nor as someone who is capable of have any care whatsoever for anyone else. And try to act with that in mind.

[MadLuv]

The hardest thing to accept is they are unreachable. The decisions  they make are out of the normal and they have lost their moral compass. The fact we can see it clearly, but they are oblivious is maddening. I after 10 months just got to the place of reality and accepting I can’t fix this. It is the hardest thing to sit back and watch someone you love destroy their lives. I’m so sorry you are dealing with this.

[Pacman]

I'm not a spiritual person however a friend is and she tells me that she "sees" my W has convinced herself that it is over.
And that my deceased grandfather has contacted the friend to "say" that he is worried about me and sees me at the cross roads.
I was trying to be positive and work on myself with the hope of reconciliation.
This message has almost taken the wind out of my sails. Plus  I said to my W last Thursday that I'm here to talk to and listen to her but stated that I couldn't be her friend while she was still talking to the AP.
I also said that the person that had the affair was not someone I knew anymore.
She responded with "The AP didn't break up our family...I did".
I told her they both did and that the situation was fixable but that she needed to get in touch with the real her.
She said "I needed you to be blunt with me"
Since then she has not contacted me.

[MadLuv]

Pacman- I have been throwing truth darts for 10 months. We think we can make a difference. Open their eyes. We can’t. I think some of the truth darts do take, but not enough for clarity for them. I know many told me over and over I was speaking to a wall. I believe it now. I think it makes them more frustrated and confused. They already have to much swirling in their MLC heads.

I’m so sorry. It’s devastating that they turn into someone we don’t know and worse someone who is the opposite of who we knew. 

[Nas]

I'm not a spiritual person however a friend is and she tells me that she "sees" my W has convinced herself that it is over.
And that my deceased grandfather has contacted the friend to "say" that he is worried about me and sees me at the cross roads.
I was trying to be positive and work on myself with the hope of reconciliation.
This message has almost taken the wind out of my sails.

I’m sorry you’re feeling low, Pacman. Well meaning friends try to help but you might want to ask your “spiritual friend” not to share anymore. Sorry to be snarky, but she can’t read your wife’s thoughts or communicate with your deceased grandfather any more than I can make it rain by dancing under a full moon. For her to share this message with you was about her, not you, and honestly it’s more  thoughtless than thoughtful for someone to claim to have clairvoyant “comfort” for your very real emotional pain.

I wanted to clarify what you mean by you told your wife that you were there to talk and listen to her but you couldn’t be her friend. I’m curious what the difference is? A friend is a person that you can talk to and who will listen to you.

I know it’s so painful and so hard to let go, but just be sure you’re taking care of yourself first and foremost.
We all get it. Hang in there.
xx

[JohnnyBravo]

I second Nas, pacman. Besides, my W has convinced herself of a lot of things, the bulk of which are NOT true. When will she figure that out? I want it to be right now, but I don't know when it will happen.

It's hard to find friends who understand why anyone would stand. I have close friends who remind me that I'm great and there are other women out there, but right now I just don't care. Even though they mean well.

I know you'll get a spectrum of opinions on this, but I believe in hope. Each of us is alone in this misadventure, yet we have support here.

JB

[Pacman]

I wanted to clarify what you mean by you told your wife that you were there to talk and listen to her but you couldn’t be her friend. I’m curious what the difference is? A friend is a person that you can talk to and who will listen to you.

I guess I'm confused on what I actually am doing.
She wants to be my friend but I'm struggling with that especially as she is now talking to her AP "as a friend" she says.
I don't wish her to just see me as a "friend" but maybe that is all I've got to work with for the time being.

I second Nas, pacman. Besides, my W has convinced herself of a lot of things, the bulk of which are NOT true. When will she figure that out? I want it to be right now, but I don't know when it will happen.

It's hard to find friends who understand why anyone would stand. I have close friends who remind me that I'm great and there are other women out there, but right now I just don't care. Even though they mean well.

I know you'll get a spectrum of opinions on this, but I believe in hope. Each of us is alone in this misadventure, yet we have support here.

JB

I am definitely not ready to "move on" as so many of my so called friends tell me I have to.
I don't see that my W is in any mental state to be making decisions and those that she has seemed out of kilter with the person she really "was".

[Nas]

I wanted to clarify what you mean by you told your wife that you were there to talk and listen to her but you couldn’t be her friend. I’m curious what the difference is? A friend is a person that you can talk to and who will listen to you.

I guess I'm confused on what I actually am doing.
She wants to be my friend but I'm struggling with that especially as she is now talking to her AP "as a friend" she says.
I don't wish her to just see me as a "friend" but maybe that is all I've got to work with for the time being.

I second Nas, pacman. Besides, my W has convinced herself of a lot of things, the bulk of which are NOT true. When will she figure that out? I want it to be right now, but I don't know when it will happen.

It's hard to find friends who understand why anyone would stand. I have close friends who remind me that I'm great and there are other women out there, but right now I just don't care. Even though they mean well.

I know you'll get a spectrum of opinions on this, but I believe in hope. Each of us is alone in this misadventure, yet we have support here.

JB

I am definitely not ready to "move on" as so many of my so called friends tell me I have to.
I don't see that my W is in any mental state to be making decisions and those that she has seemed out of kilter with the person she really "was".

Thanks for responding, Pacman. The early days are so confusing and painful.
I don't like to give prescriptive advice since no one knows your situation but you. I will say from my time here, when an LBS offers to "be there to listen and talk" but they are not yet detached, it's generally with the expectation that any conversation will lead to a reconnection, which then leads to the LBS being more confused and in more pain.

So I would just say whatever you do, do it because it works for you, not because you think it might change anything or have an impact on her.  Who she "was" is not who she is now, and who she is now is the reality you have to work with. If being her "friend" causes you pain, you don't have to do it. That doesn't mean you have to do a full flip to the "enemy" side, but you don't have to give her the benefits of your friendship if it doesn't work for you. There's a big spectrum from full-fledged demon eyed hatred to (generally inauthentic) friend-zoned bff and confidante, and in the middle of that there's calm, cordial acquaintance with firm boundaries.

[Pacman]

I've been reading denjef31 and her journey through her own MLC and so much of it resonates with what my W is doing...almost down to the letter.
I know I have to detach.....be the lighthouse....let her fix herself.....etc etc but my god its so hard when I "think" I have a better understanding.
But the whole waiting and watching my W act irrationally and throw it all away for a loser who still lives with his ex-wife confounds me.
But having said that is 50 too old for a woman to have a mid life crisis?

AND does an AP ever look at the person they are having an affair with and think to themselves......if they did it to their H or W are they trustworthy???

The gutless AP blocked me as soon as he was told I knew about the affair.
I had him banned from my property reading my meter.....more for my protection than his.

[JohnnyBravo]

But having said that is 50 too old for a woman to have a mid life crisis?

My MLCW is about to turn 53. Definitely at the upper end of the range, and it could also be menopause, or a menopause-triggered MLC. (My W was in perimenopause, and as soon as she started taking hormones, everything went downhill.) My W still has all of the classic MLC symptoms, and a few folks here have seen menopause do crazy things. It sounds like the process is the same for either case, from our perspective.

I've read all of the articles that say "people shouldn't make life-changing decisions under these conditions," but they do.

I agree it's tough when we see what the MLCer doesn't. My W thinks she'll be happy if she can find girlfriends, or move back home where her old GFs are. She forgets that she was miserable when we left there because none of those girlfriends would ever set up events and invite W out; W had to do all of the arranging. They weren't supportive of her pastimes, either. W also thought she hurt herself financially by selling her house and marrying me. She has far more financial stability with me than with a one-time cash infusion, not even considering the fact that selling her house would mean she has to put that money into a new place to live.

It's really hard knowing that they can't remember or see these things, but they're not logical.

As for the AP, they are generally broken as well.

JB

[Pacman]

I wish denjef31 was still active. She gave me so much hope reading her posts and her story through this.

It currently pains me that S19 is relying on his mother to look after granddaughter when he has told her that "if she continues seeing AP he will make their life hell".
I know he is an adult but has forgiven her pretty quickly....

[UrsaMajor]

I know he is an adult but has forgiven her pretty quickly....

He may be between a rock and a hard place. He needs her to look after his daughter so he has to "play nice" in order to get her to do what he needs her to do...

[Pacman]

Pacman- I have been throwing truth darts for 10 months. We think we can make a difference. Open their eyes. We can’t. I think some of the truth darts do take, but not enough for clarity for them. I know many told me over and over I was speaking to a wall. I believe it now. I think it makes them more frustrated and confused. They already have to much swirling in their MLC heads.

I’m so sorry. It’s devastating that they turn into someone we don’t know and worse someone who is the opposite of who we knew.

So true, however I don't know if I'm putting too much emphasis or whether it's even good.
She has gone from "you made me do this", "I did it for me" "why did you wait for me to do what I did before you got help"..............
to "I broke up the family", "I had the affair".
And yeah, I know she has gone back to him but claims it is as "friends"

Is her acknowledgment of her actions good , bad or indifferent?
So son 19 has got angry with his mother a few times about her affair and leaving the family.

All she can say to him "Is don't be angry at me"

What planet is she on....especially when he has told her if he sees them together that he will make them feel uncomfortable.

Probably Not helping the situation  and pushes her further into her abyss of fog and "Love" for the AP because he doesn't judge her.

[OffRoad]

Pacman, kids are in a horrible place. They have seen one parent abandon the other and don't want to end up abandoned themselves. Some push the cheating parent away as a preventative measure (you can't leave ME, I'll walk away first), some hang on for dear life. My son is going to college and is currently living with his father and the "girlfriend from high school" in another state. It stinks. But I cannot control anyone but myself. I just take care of myself, invite my son into my life when I have the bandwidth, and let it be. Your son is going to have to figure out his own relationship with his mother.

In general, it does not matter one whit what your W does or says. If she is truly remorseful, you won't have to guess what she is thinking or feeling. If you can't tell, she isn't. It's kind of that easy so there is no point in "what does it mean when....." What isn't easy is separating her actions from how you see yourself. I truly believe it would have happened to her even if she had been married to someone else. It is not about you or anything you did.

I can't say menopause,  not menopause. I mean, I went through menopause and didn't cheat.  I'm more inclined to think there was something else at play (messed up sense of self) and maybe a chemical inbalance ( like menopause or just getting older ) contributed to sending her over the edge.  But only she can help herself if she chooses to do so.

I am also of the mind that we, the lbs's, KNOW our spouses, and the affair partners do not. The mlcer can pretend to be anyone they choose with someone new. We are stuck because we know their faults and failings and, imo, the mlcer cannot stand that. We cannot compete with that kind of escape.

Please take care of yourself. Detach what was from what she now is. Make sure your finances are secure. You decide what is good for YOU as far as interactions. You are important.

[Pacman]

I can't say menopause,  not menopause. I mean, I went through menopause and didn't cheat.  I'm more inclined to think there was something else at play (messed up sense of self) and maybe a chemical inbalance ( like menopause or just getting older ) contributed to sending her over the edge.  But only she can help herself if she chooses to do so.

AND that is the one thing I have truly come to terms with. As much as I want to take a 2 by 4 and smack her in the head nothing will work.

I am also of the mind that we, the lbs's, KNOW our spouses, and the affair partners do not. The mlcer can pretend to be anyone they choose with someone new. We are stuck because we know their faults and failings and, imo, the mlcer cannot stand that. We cannot compete with that kind of escape.

This is also true BUT the fascade they portray to the AP won't last for ever. Her "baggage" will start to show through.

[HeavenlyFocus]

I am also of the mind that we, the lbs's, KNOW our spouses, and the affair partners do not. The mlcer can pretend to be anyone they choose with someone new. We are stuck because we know their faults and failings and, imo, the mlcer cannot stand that. We cannot compete with that kind of escape.

This is also true BUT the fascade they portray to the AP won't last for ever. Her "baggage" will start to show through.

Totally agree with OffRoad's comments about the MLCer pretending to be someone new with their new life and projecting anger at us because we know their true faults and feelings.   It's been over 1 year since BD and my W is still keeping her secret life and hasn't even admitted to me about the OM although I have had proof.   All I can do is let her be and focus on my own life.  I have worked through acceptance that she has to figure out her life and I will handle things with integrity and not let her divorce break me.

Pacman, you are doing well as your work though your own issues and it will get easier in time.   

HF

[MadLuv]

HF I agree. They do carry that with them, their past mistakes and failures, but I can attest to the fact that my XH does not see it that way. He see’s it as a fresh start. Someone trusts him and see’s him with fresh eyes. However, they are lying to them. You can’t build a relationship without being honest and without true intimacy and that comes from revealing even things that you are ashamed of.

With my XH he still only talked to me about his depression and his pain. I had become the OW. So, should she trust him? Big fat noooooo. They continue the behavior until they decided they are tired of living a lie and losing their core character and that is something only they can do

[Pacman]

So we booked a holiday to Port Douglas next month at my W insistence with the mutual friends she is now staying with.
 She made me book and pay for it halfway through her affair.

So now it's got to the point that we obviously aren't going and she is like "I'll ring and change the names on the accommodation" as though nothing is going on.

Lives in her fairy fog world living at our mutual friends house, still seeing affair partner and putting them in the middle.
It has damaged my friendship with them as they don't want to kick her having watched theherosspouse videos. They agree that she is definitely following all the script of midlife crisis however she is crapping on their generosity by still seeing the affair partner. They hoped by giving her space that she would rethink the situation.

[UrsaMajor]

So now it's got to the point that we obviously aren't going and she is like "I'll ring and change the names on the accommodation" as though nothing is going on.

Change the names to what? Mutual friends and AP? I'd be looking to get my money back if possible for at least one place if you aren't going.... That is another one of those WTF moments....

[Treasur]

If you booked it and paid for it, and are no longer going, i’d Suggest you have three options -
- you cancel it, get a refund and let everyone else know you’ve cancelled it
- ask your w to repay you whatever percentage of the total cost you are owed (although I wouldn’t expect that to happen)
- if you can afford to do so, write the money off if you can’t get a refund and chalk it down as a pricy but useful life lesson

I’d pick a) if you paid for it. If your friends are real friends, they will understand. If not, well then they are choosing to be involved on your w’s team or enabling her, and that is useful to know.
The one thing I wouldn’t be doing is paying for everyone else’s hols without saying a word and smiling through gritted teeth 
With a kind eye, your w (and you, and your friends) booked a holiday unwisely as a Hail Mary pass.
With a less kind eye, your w conned you a bit....or at least kept a foot on two camps.

Cancel the holiday. Get a refund. Inform your w/friends of your decision bit do not get sucked into a discussion or negotiation.....tell not ask.  Bc the after effects of this swallowing this kind of s$it sandwich last longer in your psyche than a vacation does.
Let everyone else make their own alternative arrangements as adults do. Not your responsibility if this inconveniences them.....arguably (at best) everyone was a bit foolish to plan this and mistakes just come with consequences in RL. And the world won’t end for anyone if they miss out on a vacation in the greater scheme of things.

Maybe you should use the refund to plan something nice for yourself?

[OffRoad]

Pacman, what do YOU want? Given the circumstances, my thoughts would be to cancel it if you do not want to go and want to cancel, change the name to YOU even if you don't want to go and make have them note than no one else can check in. And if you do want to go, make sure you get there early and get the keys and tell them no one else is allowed a key.  Were it me, I'd take the money hit and cancel anyway if I were not going to go. Why pay for her vacation with questionable "friends". Absolutely NOT OK unless you think it is.

Always ask yourself, "Is this OK with me? Is this what I deserve out of life? Is there anything I can do for myself that makes it right for me?" and think about it very hard.

[Pacman]

 

- if you can afford to do so, write the money off if you can’t get a refund and chalk it down as a pricy but useful life lesson

I am only losing the cost of the flight. Friends paid for their share.
My W won't be going either and definitely not the AP.
 

With a kind eye, your w (and you, and your friends) booked a holiday unwisely as a Hail Mary pass.
With a less kind eye, your w conned you a bit....or at least kept a foot on two camps.

So she was cake eating at that stage and played us all? Or had already decided to leave?
At the time she was being intimate with me and I (and my friends) had no idea of the affair partner.
We had been spending lots of time with our mutual friends.

[Pacman]

This weeks wrap.

I told her over a week ago that I struggle to be her friend whilst she is still taking to AP (as friends she says).
Mutual friends have become aware of this and in the early days said if she went back to him they would kick her out as "they don't want to be in the middle". Now with proof that she is at least talking to AP they have backed down and won't do anything.

The same conversation I reminded her that the car she is driving had rego due. It is a lease car that comes out my salary and then you claim back the costs.

No contact for 9 days and then she sends"I have paid the rego and the money should be in your account soon".
Also asked me how I was and she knew that I had granddaughter overnight so she asked how that went.

I just said "thank you for that and granddaughter was good last night".
"She's a good girl" she responded.
Told her I had to go as I was getting picked up to go out.
She asked where I was going and said to "have fun".

Today son 21 and his pregnant girlfriend have left for a week due to son 19, his girlfriend and child having visited a city that had 1 covid case and will not be back until Covid tests have been done and are negative.

Now the 4 of them are arguing and I'm sick of all the drama when I should have my W here to support each other and our family.

I'm struggling with my PIES with all this going on plus upkeep of the  house and work commitments.

Some days I think I've got this and then I

[HeavenlyFocus]

I told her over a week ago that I struggle to be her friend whilst she is still taking to AP (as friends she says).
Mutual friends have become aware of this and in the early days said if she went back to him they would kick her out as "they don't want to be in the middle". Now with proof that she is at least talking to AP they have backed down and won't do anything.

I wouldn't focus too much on the mutual friends.  I know in my case, my W has stayed close to friends/family that would enable her and distanced herself from those who wouldn't approve of her decisions.   In my view, it's up to W to face her own decisions and I don't view others as being responsible for holding her accountable for her decisions.

Now the 4 of them are arguing and I'm sick of all the drama when I should have my W here to support each other and our family.

I'm struggling with my PIES with all this going on plus upkeep of the  house and work commitments.

Some days I think I've got this and then I

Hang in there.  It has been tough for me lately as I have had to deal with both family and child conflict that my W is not handling at all.   Being a MLCer she doesn't want to deal with drama and this seems to typical of MLCers on this forum.   All you can do is try your best to handle things with your family.

You do got this PacMan.

HF

[Pacman]

I know this is all about her but I just can't make any sense of it.

Initially she said I made her "do what she did"
Then "I did it for me"
That has changed to "I had the affair and broke up our family".

At least she now refers to it for what it was.

She gets triggered if I de-friend her on Facebook or thinks that I've made her an acquaintance yet has gone back to talking to AP.
Is that a sign of cake eating? Or the "valley"?
I'm still very new to all this and may be placing my own bias on to the situation.

[UrsaMajor]

Is that a sign of cake eating? Or the "valley"?
I'm still very new to all this and may be placing my own bias on to the situation.

This is a sign of you trying to taste green with your elbow - of trying to make sense of something non-sensical.

You'd have better luck and probably more fun doing this

than trying to figure out what is going on in the mind of a Mid-Lifer.....

[MadLuv]

Initially she said I made her "do what she did"
Then "I did it for me" That has changed to "I had the affair and broke up our family"

I got the same thing. Put no weight in anything they say. They say things to justify their actions, to relieve their guilt and to keep you as an anchor. THEY LIE !!! The only one they can care about right now is THEM!!!! The answer you het will change by what serves them in that moment. Mine often said you made me mad, so that’s why I went out with her or took her on vacation. At one point he told me he lied about it and then lied about lying about it.  It’s a hard thing to accept. You can not make sense of anything as URSA stated.

[Pacman]

I know it was a slight push.
But needed.

She asked for my income from last year for tax purposes.
I didn't respond straight away and she got triggered.

I said I only saw your message in the car and got changed cooked dinner looked after granddaughter dye to her parents needing  break.

She said I thought you were ignoring me.
This was the push...."I'm not the one ignoring people "

"So I am?" She responds.

"I'm sorry you feel that way. I will get the info when I can."

[Kind18]

Hi PacMan. Sorry you’re here. You’re where I was 2 years ago. You must be in an incredible amount of pain.

All I can read is six pages of you analysing your wife. What she says, what she does, who she talks to, who she spends time with.

The best advice I got (and which I failed to heed for a long time) was … let it go.

The absolute best thing you can do is forget about her. What she says - who cares. Where she goes - not your problem. If she likes or dislikes your status updates - who gives a s***.

The next six pages should be all about you, for example… How is your counselling going? What support people do you have? List three hobbies/interests that you’re pouring your time into. Restore an old car. Build something. Paint the house. And get yourself fit - the best thing you can do for your mental health is fatigue your body every day. Join a gym. Walk for an hour every day.

If you find yourself ruminating 24/7 on what she is doing/saying, try this - set aside a fixed amount of time every day (say 30 mins) where you think about her and the separation, and then stick to it. It sounds dumb, but it works. Literally choose a time (09:30 to 10:00) for example, sit down in a chair, let your brain run wild, and then at 10:00, stand up and go get on with your life. If you find yourself thinking about her or the situation after 10am, just use the imagery of a stop sign and remind yourself you’ve done today’s worrying already. It really will shift your mindset.

How’s your sleeping going? Try an app like white noise to help stop the late night ruminating.

Six pages about a crazy, MLC person. The next six pages should be about you and your amazing, busy, fulfilled life of improvement.

And don’t try to understand her. Trying to understand someone in MLC/perimenopause/affair fog is like giving a feral cat a bunch of cocaine and then trying to guess what it will do.

[AlvinTheMaker]

Pacman,

You are making great leaps in personal develoment, but as you likely have read many times this is not a sprint but ultra-marathon. Days and weeks or months mean very little, this is gonna take years and years to figure out. Not just on her head, but yours as well. So slow down, save your energy for the future.

I agree with kind18s advice. You have probably heard the age old phrase "you are what you think".... When your thoughts are  intensively focused on person gone nuts, you too are at risk of becoming nuts. So give space, not because of her, but for your own wellbeing, and for your children and grandchildren.... It is not easy, but eventually you will get there.

Second... She is running on emotional fumes. So are you. And it will continue for a long time to come.... Avoid making drastic decisions for the time being.... The best you can do is put focus entirely on you. Work on PIES and everything else that is in your own control. Not because of her, but because of you.  That is how you become the lighthouse for your own life.

Take care of yourself.  It is going to be a long and hard journey with twists and turns you never imagined.

Alvin.

[Pacman]

Pacman,

You are making great leaps in personal develoment, but as you likely have read many times this is not a sprint but ultra-marathon. Days and weeks or months mean very little, this is gonna take years and years to figure out. Not just on her head, but yours as well. So slow down, save your energy for the future.

Yeah I get this 100%. My counselling and my own self reflection have given me stepping stones to being a better person, however I fall back every now and then trying to make sense of all this crap.

I agree with kind18s advice. You have probably heard the age old phrase "you are what you think".... When your thoughts are  intensively focused on person gone nuts, you too are at risk of becoming nuts. So give space, not because of her, but for your own wellbeing, and for your children and grandchildren.... It is not easy, but eventually you will get there.

I am giving her space and it is counter intuitive when I am naturally a fighter and it feels like giving up and validating her decision to continue her affair.

Second... She is running on emotional fumes. So are you. And it will continue for a long time to come.... Avoid making drastic decisions for the time being.... The best you can do is put focus entirely on you. Work on PIES and everything else that is in your own control. Not because of her, but because of you.  That is how you become the lighthouse for your own life.

The drastic decision part is where I am struggling....so many times I've thought pack her stuff and dump it on her doorstep.
Her "emotional fumes" seem to be getting stronger by the day. Like a rocket ship heading to Mars and crash land there.

Take care of yourself.  It is going to be a long and hard journey with twists and turns you never imagined.

I am doing my best day by day and trying to support son19 and his girlfriend who are new parents and both struggling mentally plus son21 and his girlfriend who are about to have a child. (All live with me). Plus the 2 girls are not talking to each other and causes tension in the house.

I'm trying to drop the rope and do not reach out to her at all and only respond with business like responses when she contacts me.
Alvin.
[/quote]

[Kind18]

Great job. Don’t feed the crazy.

[Pacman]

Great job Alvin. Don’t feed the crazy.

I feel like I'm the crazy one.

[Kind18]

I feel like I'm the crazy one.

But you aren’t. You’re here, fighting for your marriage, and standing by someone who is, at the moment, a nut job.

The sooner you stop trying to rationalise or explain or predict the crazy, the less power it will have over you.

Jedi level is when you finally get so used to it that you come to expect crazy behaviour. Then it seems much less overwhelming.

[AlvinTheMaker]

Hi Pacman,

Just remember that regardless of what happens, on the long run life will turn out well.... What you have written and shared is a lot like from my early days.  Now it's soon 3 years from my BD and I am enjoying my new life.

The most frightening moment of all is before the big change. You either stand or not, that is a personal choice.  But do acknowledge that regardless of your decision, life will become good for you and your kids. It just takes time and effort, not to rebuild life the way it was, but to make it good once again. One day at a time you will get there....when you do get there, what your (x)W does or says will have zero influence in you unless you want so. That is when you have truly dropped the rope.

Keep going and take good care of yourself,

Alvin

[Pacman]

But you aren’t. You’re here, fighting for your marriage, and standing by someone who is, at the moment, a nut job.

Then why do all my "friends" tell me to move on, get over it......blah blah. I must be crazy if they all think I'm doing the wrong thing.

The sooner you stop trying to rationalise or explain or predict the crazy, the less power it will have over you.

I'm getting better at this part most days. Doesn't change my outlook though. Just the way I respond to situations. Completely different than I used to.

Jedi level is when you finally get so used to it that you come to expect crazy behaviour. Then it seems much less overwhelming.

Yeah I get that. I guess I still have feelings that I haven't truly dealt with and get triggered at times. Far less than before but still there.

Hi Pacman,

Just remember that regardless of what happens, on the long run life will turn out well.... What you have written and shared is a lot like from my early days.  Now it's soon 3 years from my BD and I am enjoying my new life.

The most frightening moment of all is before the big change. You either stand or not, that is a personal choice.  But do acknowledge that regardless of your decision, life will become good for you and your kids. It just takes time and effort, not to rebuild life the way it was, but to make it good once again. One day at a time you will get there....when you do get there, what your (x)W does or says will have zero influence in you unless you want so. That is when you have truly dropped the rope.

Keep going and take good care of yourself,

Alvin

I am but it's the half a55ed way the MLCer leaves with no consideration to the totality of the situation.
"I've moved out so it's over". Yeah in her head maybe.
"But I want to remain friends" And no doubt keep the AP as well.
"I'm sorry I broke up the family". Nah it's still here she doesn't see it.
No full financial settlement, no "moving on with her life" etc etc.....Yeah I know all about her again........

[Kind18]

Yeah but put yourself in your friends’ shoes.

All they see is a crazy AF person who is creating heaps of pain for you. They don’t like to watch that, and so of course they’re suggesting you run.

I am but it's the half a55ed way the MLCer leaves with no consideration to the totality of the situation.
"I've moved out so it's over". Yeah in her head maybe.
"But I want to remain friends" And no doubt keep the AP as well.
"I'm sorry I broke up the family". Nah it's still here she doesn't see it.
No full financial settlement, no "moving on with her life" etc etc.....Yeah I know all about her again........

You’re right. All of that is complete BS. It’s unfathomable, because you’re a normal and rational human being.

But within the context of perimenopause/MLC/affair fog, it’s quite normal behaviour. MLC people have no regard for what’s “right”, “fair”, “reasonable” or “normal”.

There’s going to be much, much more of this. Learn to expect it.

[Kind18]

Just remember that regardless of what happens, on the long run life will turn out well....

Bingo. Two years ago, I was where you are PacMan. I just couldn’t fathom that someone I loved so much, gave so much to, could behave like this (or that her friends/the legal system would allow it).

They were the darkest days where I’d never imagined a life without her and I just couldn’t see a way forward. I had to save it at all costs.

Two years later, were divorced, my kids are happy, and I just ignore the crazy and laugh. I’ve NEVER been happier.

Alvin is right - the universe will sort it out, and one day it will be okay. Just breathe. There’s NOTHING you can do to wake her up, to accelerate it, to threaten, to punish… but there’s lots you can do to make it worse.

Stop caring and start living. Let her and the universe worry about it.

[Pacman]

Yeah but put yourself in your friends’ shoes.

All they see is a crazy AF person who is creating heaps of pain for you. They don’t like to watch that, and so of course they’re suggesting you run.

The problem is she is living with them and made me a promise that if she went back to the AP they would kick her out.
Proof has been provided that she is talking to him again and now "they don't want to be in the middle"

There’s going to be much, much more of this. Learn to expect it.

So I have to play the waiting game.....relinquish any control; and be at her mercy?
Yes I do know I have some control (about me and my behaviour, reactions etc,.......however I HAVE to decide whether I should STAND for something that may or may not happen (most likely not) and set myself up for further bouts of hurt?

She has changed her status on fakebook from married to nothing.....and I note she has liked a lawyers fakebook page......

They were the darkest days where I’d never imagined a life without her and I just couldn’t see a way forward. I had to save it at all costs.

Two years later, were divorced, my kids are happy, and I just ignore the crazy and laugh. I’ve NEVER been happier.

Again if thats the way it's going to end up then make it happen so that I can truly move on.....don't put the onus on me to deliver the final cut.

[Kind18]

Again if thats the way it's going to end up then make it happen so that I can truly move on.....don't put the onus on me to deliver the final cut.

But remember, she’s not thinking rationally. How can you expect her to make this decision? She can’t even process the most basic of things atm.

The two options you have are to accept the crazy and wait, or start again.

So I have to play the waiting game.....relinquish any control; and be at her mercy?

Yes, yes … and no. You’re only at her mercy if you choose to be. You can play the waiting game, relinquish any control over whether she wakes up/marriage is saved…. But you’re not at her mercy. Go out and live your life, if you choose to wait or go - it doesn’t matter. You only get about 80 laps around the sun. If you’re going to try and wait out the MLC, don’t waste it. Go out and live. Hobbies. Holidays. Camping with your kids. Paint the house. New car. Start a University course. Get fit. The world won’t stop spinning while you wait.

She has changed her status on fakebook from married to nothing.....and I note she has liked a lawyers fakebook page......

Who gives a f***. She is probably fishing for a reaction. This is commonly called a plan b check. She wants to know she’s still got you in case OM doesn’t work out. And the MLC will do anything to get that attention, including things which are cruel, adversarial and provocative.

Don’t feed the crazy. Unfollow her so you don’t see it. Delete Facebook. Zero f***s.

When I told my ex I had a new girlfriend, she said “thanks for being honest” - despite the fact she had an affair before we separated and still hasn’t admitted it publicly. The “thanks for being honest” was actually an attempt to get a “at least I was honest unlike you” response from me. My psychologist confirmed as much, said it’s classic MLC/affair fog behaviour and she wanted her plan b fix. They are like a puppy dog, they will do anything to get attention - good or bad.

Time to focus on YOU.

[AlvinTheMaker]

Again if thats the way it's going to end up then make it happen so that I can truly move on.....don't put the onus on me to deliver the final cut.

It can be a long wait, or a short wait.... For me it lasted for about a year for XW to finalize it.

All in all expectations are the poison of the mind. If being brutally honest, you never can and will not know when your marriage will end. So the best course of action.... Start living in present moment. For you.

There's an old proverb that holds much truth. Live in the past, and you will become depressed. Live in the future, and you will become anxious. So live in present and be healthy.

The more you try to control what you cannot control, the deeper you will sink in.  Like kind18 wrote - let her be/go/do whatever she wants (in the end its her life). Focus on improving things for you and your family. If she chooses to come back some day, she will know where and how to find you. There is no need for you to check on her.

Take care of yourself,

Alvin

[UrsaMajor]

Read this again.... Print it and tape it to your bathroom mirror....

Again if thats the way it's going to end up then make it happen so that I can truly move on.....don't put the onus on me to deliver the final cut.

But remember, she’s not thinking rationally. How can you expect her to make this decision? She can’t even process the most basic of things atm.

The two options you have are to accept the crazy and wait, or start again.

So I have to play the waiting game.....relinquish any control; and be at her mercy?

Yes, yes … and no. You’re only at her mercy if you choose to be. You can play the waiting game, relinquish any control over whether she wakes up/marriage is saved…. But you’re not at her mercy. Go out and live your life, if you choose to wait or go - it doesn’t matter. You only get about 80 laps around the sun. If you’re going to try and wait out the MLC, don’t waste it. Go out and live. Hobbies. Holidays. Camping with your kids. Paint the house. New car. Start a University course. Get fit. The world won’t stop spinning while you wait.

The Mid-Lifer wants nothing more than for the LBS to be sitting around on their front porch in their rocking chair surrounded by a pile of snotty, cried out Kleenexes, crocheting lace doilies waiting in the case they might decide that their new life isn't all that they expected it to be..... That, however, is NOT their decision alone. As Kind noted though, you are only at her mercy (a victim) if you CHOOSE to be a victim....

She has changed her status on fakebook from married to nothing.....and I note she has liked a lawyers fakebook page......

Who gives a f***. She is probably fishing for a reaction. This is commonly called a plan b check. She wants to know she’s still got you in case OM doesn’t work out. And the MLC will do anything to get that attention, including things which are cruel, adversarial and provocative.

Don’t feed the crazy. Unfollow her so you don’t see it. Delete Facebook. Zero f***s.

EXACTLY!

Patient: "Doctor, it REALLY hurts when I stick the Barbeque fork in my eye....."
Doctor: "Well... STOP STICKING THE BARBEQUE FORK IN YOUR EYE!"

When I told my ex I had a new girlfriend, she said “thanks for being honest” - despite the fact she had an affair before we separated and still hasn’t admitted it publicly. The “thanks for being honest” was actually an attempt to get a “at least I was honest unlike you” response from me. My psychologist confirmed as much, said it’s classic MLC/affair fog behaviour and she wanted her plan b fix. They are like a puppy dog, they will do anything to get attention - good or bad.

Time to focus on YOU.

Yeah, that was one of those BS "fishing" comments that follows the "Rule of Three" for reacting/responding....

If someone's life is at stake, injuries, blood, etc., then a 3 minute response time is appropriate
If it is important and time critical regarding kids, then 3 hours is appropriate
If it is "important" like legal stuff - 3 days
Significant Communications, 3 weeks to
Idle chatter 3 months if at all

[Pacman]

So I'm going to see a lawyer on Friday.
Never wanted to go down this path.....

Son22 and his girlfriend will have a baby in the next week or so and W has been messaging everyday to see if he is here yet.
They are over it and have decided no sleepovers for her.

Her fog is so thick it's not funny.

I spent last weekend making a bedroom in the shed for s19 his girlfriend and bubs 1 to give them some personal space. I only have a 3 bedroom house and it was getting to tight.

I'm proud of standing for my family!!!!

[Kind18]

Good for you, PacMan.

Yes, the fog is thick. Sometimes it thins out a little, and you think it might start clearing… and then it rolls straight back in, thicker than ever.

I’m glad you’re living your life. Looking after your children and grand children will be great. Your wife may wake up in a few years, or most likely she may not… but for now, you need to get on with your life.

Other than moving kids and grandkids around, what are your other interests? Do you have a mountain bike? A gym nearby? What about camping or hiking? Do you play an instrument? What music are you in to?

It will get worse before it gets better. The crazy will get crazier. Devote a fixed time every day (maybe 30 mins) to the legal and divorce stuff, and then forget about it for the rest of the day. Don’t let it consume you.

[Pacman]

Good for you, PacMan.

Yes, the fog is thick. Sometimes it thins out a little, and you think it might start clearing… and then it rolls straight back in, thicker than ever.

Doesn't seem to have lifted at all. Coming in thicker.

I’m glad you’re living your life. Looking after your children and grand children will be great. Your wife may wake up in a few years, or most likely she may not… but for now, you need to get on with your life.

Doing the best I can most days.

Other than moving kids and grandkids around, what are your other interests? Do you have a mountain bike? A gym nearby? What about camping or hiking? Do you play an instrument? What music are you in to?

Haven't really got into a lot for myself lately. S19 and girlfriend are suffering depression so trying to get them back on track. Doing things around the house is slightly therapeutic. And cost effective due to having taken up the sole financial burden of the household expenses.

It will get worse before it gets better. The crazy will get crazier. Devote a fixed time every day (maybe 30 mins) to the legal and divorce stuff, and then forget about it for the rest of the day. Don’t let it consume you.

BUT it does consume me (I know........ I have control). My job is very sedentary and gives me ample time to contemplate.
I have to attack the financial situation with her very soon as there are 2 lease cars that I'm paying for yet she drives one (it comes out of my salary pre tax).
I know it will be a push and she will rebel against it and throw other financial aspects back at me.

[HeavenlyFocus]

It will get worse before it gets better. The crazy will get crazier. Devote a fixed time every day (maybe 30 mins) to the legal and divorce stuff, and then forget about it for the rest of the day. Don’t let it consume you.

BUT it does consume me (I know........ I have control). My job is very sedentary and gives me ample time to contemplate.
I have to attack the financial situation with her very soon as there are 2 lease cars that I'm paying for yet she drives one (it comes out of my salary pre tax).
I know it will be a push and she will rebel against it and throw other financial aspects back at me.

Hi Pacman,

I struggled with this too during the time after my W moved out.  Was in a home I couldn't afford and faced so much stress.   Slowly I have worked out the financial situation with my W and we are almost done finalizing the D.  My biggest advice to try to address a portion of the financial things at a time and be ready to deal with emotional rollercoaster.   Give yourself breaks where you can detach and in time it gets easier to rebound after a stressful situation or discussion with you W.  You will be alright over time.

HF

[Pacman]

Hi Pacman,

I struggled with this too during the time after my W moved out.  Was in a home I couldn't afford and faced so much stress.   Slowly I have worked out the financial situation with my W and we are almost done finalizing the D.  My biggest advice to try to address a portion of the financial things at a time and be ready to deal with emotional rollercoaster.   Give yourself breaks where you can detach and in time it gets easier to rebound after a stressful situation or discussion with you W.  You will be alright over time.

HF

There has been no discussion at all for 2 weeks.
And I'm not sure that I'm ready to push in any direction.......will only increase her resolve. Besides I will see the lawyer Friday and the car etc will all get worked out in the wash if that is how it ends up. I can deal with the financial aspects for the time being as to do otherwise will destroy any opportunity as she expects  (probably wants) me to be angry and vindictive.

She isn't acting or thinking rationally and this is where I get stuck because I want to be "black or white" and get things dealt with for my self.
Ideally yes reconciliation however as she has stated it's not going to happen and I know she is talking to her AP again. She has pretty much alienated herself from her sisters, our sons except for when one "uses" her for baby sitting duties.

[HeavenlyFocus]

I feel for you Pacman.   I honestly have not pushed my W at all during this entire process since BD.  (Selling house, Marriage Counseling, Filing for D, Working to Finalize D details).   She has driven all of it and all I have tried to do is detach and take care of my kids and me.  It is her crises and I have accepted that she has to figure things out without me.

HF

[UrsaMajor]

Pacman,

FWIW, Mid-Lifers are notoriously AWFUL drivers, even if they were perfect before  - speeding tickets, accidents, DUI, you name it.... If you are responsible for the lease on a car that she is driving, I think I'd be wanting to get out from under that swinging pendulum of death ASAP..... This is simply CingYA, nothing more...

[Pacman]

So DIL2 is due to give birth to our 2nd grandchild and W is monstering her with messages and phone calls left right and centre.
DIL has had enough so W rings son he doesn't answer .....so she messages son1 and asks him.
It's like I'm a dead piece of meat.....
Yet I'm the one putting a roof over their heads,  paying bills and putting food on the table.

[UrsaMajor]

So DIL2 is due to give birth to our 2nd grandchild and W is monstering her with messages and phone calls left right and centre.
DIL has had enough so W rings son he doesn't answer .....so she messages son1 and asks him.
It's like I'm a dead piece of meat.....
Yet I'm the one putting a roof over their heads,  paying bills and putting food on the table.

Yes, but remember who you are.... You are Beelzebub, 2nd cousin to Satan in the MLC Mind. You are the root of all evil and the cause of all the problems that the MLC'er EVER had in their ENTIRE freaking life!  You are the reason that they are so unhappy .. .so unhappy that they had to go shack up with the OW/OM in order to be "happy" again.... It doesn't matter a hill of beans what you are doing for anyone else in the family, you failed to keep supplying the Mid-Lifer with their ever-increasing need for "happy" so you are, by default, evil.

AND, one other thing, your kids are essentially adults. While you want to protect them, they are old enough to form their own R with the MLC Mama... Their R with her is, quite frankly, not your farm, not your cows, not your BS to shovel..... Your R with them is your business...

Just consider it good fortune that you do not have to be the torn-tape relay between the MLC Mama that the kid are not interested in dealing with and her... That will save you a whole lot of anxiety, anger, and annoyance...

Meanwhile, you keep doing you.....

[Treasur]

Seems to me, Pac, that whether anyone likes it or not, some things are going to have to change in how your household works. Probably some practical/financial things as a practical consequence of any divorce settlement. Probably some renegotiated agreements bc you will find yourself running on air otherwise if you are one adult supporting a household of four other younger adults and an increasing number of small people in a 3 bed house, love them as you do.

How your w communicates with them all is not your business, of course, or what they do in return or how your w who left feels about it. I suspect everyone in your house has some strong feelings about what has happened. But is your post about more than that? Babies, hormones and other people’s relationships under one roof can all bring quite a lot of stress and drama in normal times, I imagine. And these are not normal times, are they?

I don’t know what the arrangements are, financially and practically, or what the circumstances were that created this extended family in a small house situation. If it was/is a temporary covid situation or not. But it sounds as if you feel rather unvalued and tired by it? Have you had any headspace to muse on how things might work better from your POV? Any conversations with your sons? Or what new boundaries you might need to live well and sustainably now? No different really than the issue of paying for the lease on your w’s car now she has decided she no longer wants to be your w.....lots of things need to adjust to fit a new normal.

[Pacman]

Yes, but remember who you are.... You are Beelzebub, 2nd cousin to Satan in the MLC Mind. You are the root of all evil and the cause of all the problems that the MLC'er EVER had in their ENTIRE freaking life!  You are the reason that they are so unhappy .. .so unhappy that they had to go shack up with the OW/OM in order to be "happy" again.... It doesn't matter a hill of beans what you are doing for anyone else in the family, you failed to keep supplying the Mid-Lifer with their ever-increasing need for "happy" so you are, by default, evil.

And don't I feel like I'm being treated that way? Like I'm the reason for all the worlds problems and the sole reason she isn't happy.

AND, one other thing, your kids are essentially adults. While you want to protect them, they are old enough to form their own R with the MLC Mama... Their R with her is, quite frankly, not your farm, not your cows, not your BS to shovel..... Your R with them is your business...

I know and am doing my best to stay out of that piece of this crapfest.

Meanwhile, you keep doing you.....

Doing the best I can ;-)

Seems to me, Pac, that whether anyone likes it or not, some things are going to have to change in how your household works. Probably some practical/financial things as a practical consequence of any divorce settlement. Probably some renegotiated agreements bc you will find yourself running on air otherwise if you are one adult supporting a household of four other younger adults and an increasing number of small people in a 3 bed house, love them as you do.

Things are changing. And yes I'm running on air. Haven't fully grounded myself and can't see that happening anytime real soon. 

How your w communicates with them all is not your business, of course, or what they do in return or how your w who left feels about it. I suspect everyone in your house has some strong feelings about what has happened. But is your post about more than that? Babies, hormones and other people’s relationships under one roof can all bring quite a lot of stress and drama in normal times, I imagine. And these are not normal times, are they?

No these are not normal times at all but I'm standing strong for my family and they help out. Yes everyone has pretty strong feelings and the "adults" agree that it is crap and are supporting me.

I don’t know what the arrangements are, financially and practically, or what the circumstances were that created this extended family in a small house situation. If it was/is a temporary covid situation or not. But it sounds as if you feel rather unvalued and tired by it? Have you had any headspace to muse on how things might work better from your POV? Any conversations with your sons? Or what new boundaries you might need to live well and sustainably now? No different really than the issue of paying for the lease on your w’s car now she has decided she no longer wants to be your w.....lots of things need to adjust to fit a new normal.

Sons and I have had a few conversations. They are paying their way and helping out with general household stuff. They are living with me to give them a good headstart and stability with their own micro families.
1 son and his partner have 2 bedrooms inside the house whilst other son girlfriend and baby are living in a 12m x 6m shed that I have lined and broken up into 3 rooms so everyone has their own personal space.
However at times yes I do feel undervalued and think it would be easier for me to walk away from this crapshoot that I've been dealt by her craziness.
While she just doesn't seem to give a hoot about anything except herself.

[OffRoad]

One thing I believe you should take to heart. Do not confuse your W thinking (or saying) you are being "Angry and vindictive" with you protecting yourself and your finances. "Sorry, I can no longer afford/do not want to pay for the lease on your car, so you need to either get rid of it or get a new lease on it" is not angry OR vindictive. It is protecting yourself. Getting yourself off of that car is prudent. What if she wrecks in in her MLC fog? You get to own half of that wreck if you don't get everything separate and lined up.

In the beginning, we often think we can "nice" them back. If I'm not "mean or vindictive" aka taking care of myself instead of worried about her, then she will see that I'm not what she says I am. Not so much. You could be the most perfect person in the world, but because you didn't put down the toilet seat on January 4th 2013, you are EVIL forevermore.

I know you are feeling beaten up and bruised. If you are anything like I was, each day was a slogfest just to get through. I certainly did not want to deal with any of this nonsense. I am, however glad I did. Mine spent $20,000 in one month. Fortunately, I had already split the money, gotten downloads of what the amounts were in each account on the date he BD'd me (with a day or two), and did not have to worry that he was spending my half.

Take care of you, one thing at a time. Checklist if you like them. You also deserve a break. You think YOU are not depressed? Find something to do that occupies your mind, even if it is for an hour. Escape room in a box.  Find a new hobby. Home improvement. Wax the car to 80's rock music. Paint rocks. SOMEthing just for you.  You are worthy.

[Pacman]

One thing I believe you should take to heart. Do not confuse your W thinking (or saying) you are being "Angry and vindictive" with you protecting yourself and your finances. "Sorry, I can no longer afford/do not want to pay for the lease on your car, so you need to either get rid of it or get a new lease on it" is not angry OR vindictive. It is protecting yourself. Getting yourself off of that car is prudent. What if she wrecks in in her MLC fog? You get to own half of that wreck if you don't get everything separate and lined up.

That time is coming as the other vehicles lease is up in a few months. At that time she will have to decide whether she wishes to buy out that vehicle and return the one she has (as it will still be on lease) or buy herself another vehicle.

In the beginning, we often think we can "nice" them back. If I'm not "mean or vindictive" aka taking care of myself instead of worried about her, then she will see that I'm not what she says I am. Not so much. You could be the most perfect person in the world, but because you didn't put down the toilet seat on January 4th 2013, you are EVIL forevermore.

Don't I know I am the root of all that has gone wrong in her life....she has told me as much including I made her have the affair lol. But I'm not going to lower myself to being a prick......I am better than that.

I know you are feeling beaten up and bruised. If you are anything like I was, each day was a slogfest just to get through. I certainly did not want to deal with any of this nonsense. I am, however glad I did. Mine spent $20,000 in one month. Fortunately, I had already split the money, gotten downloads of what the amounts were in each account on the date he BD'd me (with a day or two), and did not have to worry that he was spending my half.

You bet I am. I feel like the bus comes passed everyday and runs me over.
Financially I have all documents regarding what was there and owed on BD and what has been spent since that date. Seeing a lawyer tomorrow.
Just to ensure that my ducks are lined up in case I (or she) pull the final trigger.

Take care of you, one thing at a time. Checklist if you like them. You also deserve a break. You think YOU are not depressed? Find something to do that occupies your mind, even if it is for an hour. Escape room in a box.  Find a new hobby. Home improvement. Wax the car to 80's rock music. Paint rocks. SOMEthing just for you.  You are worthy.

Have been working on the home (which no doubt gets under her collar haha). I know I am depressed (sometimes) and working through that day by day.

[Pacman]

So weekly wrap up.
On annual leave because tomorrow we were meant to fly out on holidays with our friends......well guess not.
So I will take the time and be proactive around the house and finish off some jobs that have been waiting for years.

Last night caught up with an old work mate and not once did I discuss W or the situation. Just went out for dinner and a chat,

No communication from her for 11 days now.

Babysitting granddaughter tonight and hopefully by this weeks end grandson will arrive as well.

Should be exciting times but a little hollow.

Spoke to a lawyer yesterday and geez aren't they a bundle of fun?
"You need to be on the front foot and serve her papers" "Don't wait for her" "You have the upper hand".
"It will only cost you $15-20 grand". Yeah thanks.

SIL returned a video camera that we had all forgotten about and it has pictures of my sons when they were 2 and 4 with my now deceased grandparents......brought a tear to my eyes. She couldn't even see me (I'll always be there for you blah blah) so dropped it off to my neighbours.

Niece in law invited me over for Xmas lunch.....like really? How does she think I would turn up knowing that W would probably be there and potentially with the affair partner.

All in all I'm getting to realise that the woman I married is dead. As I am dead to her.
Not that I don't still think about her but know she is not the same person that I married.
Her first husband cheated on her so I can't understand why she would go and have an affair.

[Kind18]

This is great!

Less about the crazy, and more about you 

Good to see you heading out with friends for dinner, good to see you going dark (11 days), good to see you enjoying time with grandchildren!

What jobs are you going to do around the house?

[Pacman]

This is great!

Less about the crazy, and more about you 

Good to see you heading out with friends for dinner, good to see you going dark (11 days), good to see you enjoying time with grandchildren!

What jobs are you going to do around the house?

Yeah it was nice going out to dinner/

Installing an air con and making a loungeroom in the shed for s19 girlfriend and baby.

Painting hallway loungeroom and 2nd toilet.
Remove wallpaper in MBR and paint in there.
Rip up tiles in entry and sand, polish floorboards.

Help son rebuild the engine in his car and maybe start working on the Trans Am to get it back on the road.

[5hilmerton]

Pacman,
It sounds like you have a lot of great skills to keep yourself distracted. I. can always find stuff to do.  But i mostly like to be outside in my yard.  I found that i was spending too much time in the yard self distracting and not enough time focusing on true healing.  I guess i was just numbing the pain.  I actually had to create a schedule for myself to make sure i dedicate time for ALL the components in my life to help me move forward. Just recently i decided that a friendship i develop in the very beginning of the MLC Journey is too much drama.  I realized, although i needed the distraction in the beginning, i now feel i do not need the added drama. As always we will adjust to the time and demand. (My supply chain verbiage).
Wishing you the very best in your Journey.

5hil

[Pacman]

So there are 2 cars both leased which I'm paying for.
1 lease is up early next year.
Do I tell her she has to pay for the one she is driving or payout the figure on the other one and she can drive it as I'm not going to continue paying 2 leases if she wants to move on.
Consequence to her decision to have an affair and leave her family.

[Nas]

P, it all depends on what makes the most sense for YOU, but it's tricky and there's a lot to take into account. Are the leases in your name, both your names, one in her name, one in yours?
If the lease on the car she's driving is in her name, that's the ideal scenario and you can just tell her she has to start paying for it herself now.
If the lease is in your name/joint lease and she defaults on the payments, that hurts you as well credit-wise, etc. 
I dealt with a similar issue when my former H left and I was paying for our cars, insurance, etc. It's different in the state we lived in and required a lot of steps (and he was uncooperative so it was a lot of work on my end), but the first thing I would suggest is you call the company your lease is through to ask about the steps for doing a lease transfer (to make the car she's driving only in her name if it's not already). Just get all the information for every scenario so you can figure out what works best for you.

[Pacman]

P, it all depends on what makes the most sense for YOU, but it's tricky and there's a lot to take into account. Are the leases in your name, both your names, one in her name, one in yours?
If the lease on the car she's driving is in her name, that's the ideal scenario and you can just tell her she has to start paying for it herself now.
If the lease is in your name/joint lease and she defaults on the payments, that hurts you as well credit-wise, etc. 
I dealt with a similar issue when my former H left and I was paying for our cars, insurance, etc. It's different in the state we lived in and required a lot of steps (and he was uncooperative so it was a lot of work on my end), but the first thing I would suggest is you call the company your lease is through to ask about the steps for doing a lease transfer (to make the car she's driving only in her name if it's not already). Just get all the information for every scenario so you can figure out what works best for you.

Both leases are paid out of my salary pre tax.

[Nas]

Both leases are paid out of my salary pre tax.

Understood, but what I was asking are the vehicles leased and insured in only your name? In both your names? Are they corporate vehicles? All of this makes a difference.
If these are personal (not company) cars, my advice was to call and find out the steps for transferring the lease on the car your wife drives to her name.
I don't know where you live and the steps might be different (including re-registering and insuring the car) but that would be a good first fact finding step so you can make an informed decision on what to do.

[Treasur]

Sounds as if you want to get clear in your mind two things
What you need/want to achieve eg not paying for a lease car your separated wife is driving, not being financially on the hook if she defaults on payments, insurance or has an accident
What the practical constraints/timescales are given the terms and type of lease on the car she is driving.

I suspect a bit of you feels a bit FU about it. Understandably. Not necessarily helpful lol, but understandable. Quite possible that your w will have a bit of a tantrum when you change the status quo. Or a sadz. Bc these folks don’t much like those practical reality inconvenient consequences, bit of a buzzkill. Either way, be prepared for that 
But decide what is best for you, give her reasonable notice of what is going to happen, inform rather than ask but invite her to come up with a different solution if there is one that doesn’t expose you to cost/risk.

[OffRoad]

Pacman, you need to find out the steps for whichever you want to have happen.
1)Getting the car she drives on her own lease, including stopping payment from your salary. This may not be possible.
2) telling her you she needs to pay the amount, but if she doesn't you will be stuck having to pay it.
3)Offering to let her pay out the vehicle where the lease is expiring and trading vehicles.
4) Get the vehicle you still have to pay for back (if she won't give it back, you could have to file a stolen vehicle report), and let her figure out her own transportation.

Figure out what you want, let her know what is coming.

But get yourself off of anything she is driving. Think of you first, what is in your best interest.

[Kind18]

Consequence to her decision to have an affair and leave her family.

This is not the right reason to be doing this, don’t ever do something to teach her a lesson or as punishment.

You just need the car thing sorted out to protect yourself.

Did you have the lawyer appointment yet? What did they say about the car leases?

I think I’d just email her. Say you don’t want to be exposed to liability for the car, ask her if she wants to buy it out from you or return it to the lease company. Leave the ball in her court, but give her a fixed time (maybe 7 days) to respond.

If it’s all in your name and she doesn’t respond, contact the lease company and advise them. Then I’d go to the Police.

[forthetrees]

If you´re willing to run out the clock on the leased one she is driving, you could give her notice that the lease ends as of ____________ (automatically that means no more money coming from your paycheck to cover it). I would not bring up the possibility of a renewal. Rather, you let her know it is ending and then she has a heads up for finding alternate transportation. This could come back to bite you if your state allows for her to list expenses for her current lifestyle and you then would be on the hook for providing the funds for a car IF you owe alimony. If not, no worries.

[Ready2Transform]

My dad still likes to tell this story. My parents got a car note a few months before they split up. It was a car for my mother, but she wanted the benefit of his GM discount.    After she left him he marched into the credit union and told them if she doesn't pay the note, repossess the car, then call him, and he'll come get it and sell it.

That would be nice in a world where life was like a movie, but it's not. Even back then, I wondered wth he was thinking. The attorneys soon set him straight that the car would be handled in the d (she had to refinance it), and he also managed to get a restraining order against him from the credit union (because they thought he was crazy).

Just throwing that out there because that really is how matters about joint assets are handled, unfortunate for us as it is. If you think you can get anything settled between the two of you about it, go for it, but I would not call the police with a "stolen car" story. That's not going to make you look good in any potential d activity. I get it though - you want someone to deal with reality. That's when sometimes, even though it sucks, divorce can be better for us. Hugs.

[Pacman]

Consequence to her decision to have an affair and leave her family.

This is not the right reason to be doing this, don’t ever do something to teach her a lesson or as punishment.

Yeah I know. I was just having a bad day.

Did you have the lawyer appointment yet? What did they say about the car leases?

They said it will be treated as an asset and a debt

Pacman, you need to find out the steps for whichever you want to have happen.
1)Getting the car she drives on her own lease, including stopping payment from your salary. This may not be possible. Not possible.
2) telling her you she needs to pay the amount, but if she doesn't you will be stuck having to pay it. Then it would come out of her settlement share
3)Offering to let her pay out the vehicle where the lease is expiring and trading vehicles. This is the most likely scenario.
4) Get the vehicle you still have to pay for back (if she won't give it back, you could have to file a stolen vehicle report), and let her figure out her own transportation. Would be a false report and get me into trouble.

Figure out what you want, let her know what is coming.

But get yourself off of anything she is driving. Think of you first, what is in your best interest.

I get it though - you want someone to deal with reality. That's when sometimes, even though it sucks, divorce can be better for us. Hugs.

Yep exactly....reality. I'm dealing with is every day while she is blissfully ignorant to the outcomes.

[OffRoad]

This is where it is EXTREMELY important to know your legals obligations and rights in the state/country you are in. I live in a community property state. I also owned a vehicle that was my PERSONAL property not paid for with marital funds and in my name only. When my xh took my car without my permission, I had the right, per the police department, to file a stolen vehicle report  if I had not given him permission to drive it. It was important because if he had gotten into an accident, I could have been sued as an individual, and he might have gotten off scott free. Each situation is specific. (I did not file the report, btw, but would have had he not returned it when I texted him to do so. Then I confiscated and hid the keys)

Find out ALL of your legal obligations and rights. Know what you could be responsible for if she gets into an accident with a car that has either just your name, or yours and hers on it. Protect yourself and decide what to do based on keeping yourself and your financial situation safe. Do what you do for YOU.

[UrsaMajor]

Find out ALL of your legal obligations and rights. Know what you could be responsible for if she gets into an accident with a car that has either just your name, or yours and hers on it. Protect yourself and decide what to do based on keeping yourself and your financial situation safe. Do what you do for YOU.

^^^^^^THIS^^^^^IS ^^^^^^ PRIORITY ^^^^^NUMBER ^^^^ONE^^^^^^

[Pacman]

I lost it at her last night
She asked to come And get her stuff.
Still says it was only a kiss....BS.
"It was the hardest thing I've ever had to do to leave". She says.
I know I didn't handle it well but I needed to get it off my chest.
She lied and continues lieing.
Feel a little remorseful but truth darts needed to be thrown.
Back to silence for me.

[Ready2Transform]

There were times I had to let the lid off and called out the obvious b.s. It may not have changed him, but it did relieve some of my pressure. I don't regret that. I 'zipped the lip' more than had ever been my previous style of communication, but the times I expressed myself helped me move forward. I hope today you feel a little more relief.

[Curiosity]

Agree with R2T… if you blow up and throw unintentional truth darts, or even allow yourself to react emotionally instead of taking into account the rule of 3 every time… you are human, let yourself do what you need to in the moment. You can recognize logically that it may have no effect on the MLCer, and it may even stoke their anger or push them further away. But ultimately, your focus has to be on you and not her - you have to consider your short term and your long term wellbeing. Sometimes, even if the long term plan is for healing and detachment and dropping the rope, that short term pressure relief is needed in order for you to calm your emotions and turn your focus inward. And it’s okay.

[Pacman]

Agree with R2T… if you blow up and throw unintentional truth darts, or even allow yourself to react emotionally instead of taking into account the rule of 3 every time… you are human, let yourself do what you need to in the moment. You can recognize logically that it may have no effect on the MLCer, and it may even stoke their anger or push them further away. But ultimately, your focus has to be on you and not her - you have to consider your short term and your long term wellbeing. Sometimes, even if the long term plan is for healing and detachment and dropping the rope, that short term pressure relief is needed in order for you to calm your emotions and turn your focus inward. And it’s okay.

Yeah I am human and make mistakes.
I know that I pushed her yesterday and no doubt made her angry but I needed answers and knew I wouldn't really get them anyway.
I ended up being more confused than before as I did not get any change to her narrative.

[Pacman]

So I know I should not have brought up the affair again.


She sent me a text saying "you know what? I love you too but couldn't continue the way it was and she is glad that I got help and am changing. Also she got help"

[UrsaMajor]

She sent me a text saying "you know what? I love you too but couldn't continue the way it was and she is glad that I got help and am changing. Also she got help"

Yeah, she got "help" alright....


She couldn't continue the way it was so, instead of talking to you about your R and what she needed, she chose to go out and had an affair... Now THAT is the right way to get things to change....

[Pacman]

I so want to send this.....

I now know that our marriage wasn't satisfactory for you or me. I completely accept my half of the responsibility for that and am sorry for the hurt it caused you. The other half, and your subsequent affair to aggravate those problems is all on you.
And your constant lies about how far the affair went ....you are only lieing to yourself


But then think ....what benefit will I get...nothing.

But then what have I got to lose....nothing.

[UrsaMajor]

[RANT MODE ON] - breaking out the 2x4

I so want to send this.....

I now know that our marriage wasn't satisfactory for you or me. I completely accept my half of the responsibility for that and am sorry for the hurt it caused you. The other half, and your subsequent affair to aggravate those problems is all on you.
And your constant lies about how far the affair went ....you are only lieing to yourself


But then think ....what benefit will I get...nothing.

But then what have I got to lose....nothing.

You have nothing to loose? Are you firetrucking serious?

Do you enjoy poking the Monster with an electric Cattle Prod and the results that you get from doing so?  If so, then by all means, have at it.... You could also stab yourself in the nose with a Barbeque fork while you are at it for good measure...

Seriously, that is one of the most Passive-Aggressive pieces of nonsense I have seen in a long time... I understand that you are hurting... Been there, done that got the T-Shirt - twice in fact... but the only thing sending a message like this will achieve is to add fuel to her narrative about what a Richard Cranium you are and she'll use the text above to prove it to whoever will listen if she gets it... Do you REALLY want to prove to her that really nothing has changed and your assertions to the contrary have been nothing but Mule Fritters?? Do you really want to show her enablers and friends that she was right the whole time about you and is better off with OM?
[/RANT MODE]

Write it on a piece of paper, sit on it for 3 days and then burn it... and, in that act, let go....

Let her narrative die a death due to lack of correlation/evidence.

Be the rock that shall not be moved and not the volcano that burns everything around it indiscriminatley.

Control what you can control - your OWN state of mind and well being....

"You can NOT control what has happened to you but you can control the way you react/respond to what has happened to you. You then master/control the changes instead of allowing them to master/control you."

I understand the pain but lashing out in return is not a healthy way to deal with it...

[Treasur]

Please don’t.

What you have to lose is your own stability and a backwards step in your process. That’s not nothing, my friend.
I think what you are struggling to accept is that currently, regardless of your w’s words, she simply does not care much what you feel or think. Her actions say so quite clearly. You simply cannot logic, guilt or nice her out of this....so it is more efficient to swallow the pill and accept it. If it changes, you’ll know.....

Your time would be better spent scouring the house of any of her remaining ‘stuff’, boxing it up and telling her when it is available to be picked up so you can knock on the head her ‘I just want to drop by to pick up more stuff’ game  and with a new baby coming soon, I’m sure you can all use any extra closet space 

[JohnnyBravo]

Agreed with the above. Not sending will keep you as the better and stronger person.

[MadLuv]

I am also on team DONT SEND…. Not sending alone will give you some power back. Sending will only hurt you. Much like carrying hatred. It always turns back to you. I’m all for the print it out on paper and have a little bon fire and maybe indulge in some s'mores making while your at it!!  Maybe use some sticks that you wish you could beat some sense into the senseless.. hehe

[OffRoad]

What have you got to lose? You just took credit for half the fault FOR HER CHEATING! No, just no.

Are you perfect, no. We're you really so unhappy in your marriage until she BD'D you? I'm thinking no. Should you allow her narrative to rewrite your whole marriage as being unsatisfactory  for BOTH  of you? I think not.

You gain nothing and lose a lot.

[Pacman]

[RANT MODE ON] - breaking out the 2x4

You have nothing to loose? Are you firetrucking serious?

Seriously, that is one of the most Passive-Aggressive pieces of nonsense I have seen in a long time... I understand that you are hurting... Been there, done that got the T-Shirt - twice in fact... but the only thing sending a message like this will achieve is to add fuel to her narrative about what a Richard Cranium you are and she'll use the text above to prove it to whoever will listen if she gets it... Do you REALLY want to prove to her that really nothing has changed and your assertions to the contrary have been nothing but Mule Fritters?? Do you really want to show her enablers and friends that she was right the whole time about you and is better off with OM?
[/RANT MODE]

Write it on a piece of paper, sit on it for 3 days and then burn it... and, in that act, let go....

Let her narrative die a death due to lack of correlation/evidence.

Be the rock that shall not be moved and not the volcano that burns everything around it indiscriminatley.

Control what you can control - your OWN state of mind and well being....

"You can NOT control what has happened to you but you can control the way you react/respond to what has happened to you. You then master/control the changes instead of allowing them to master/control you."

I understand the pain but lashing out in return is not a healthy way to deal with it...

This is why I type here before sending anything. It gives me time to reconsider and also get some advice. Thanks.

Please don’t.

What you have to lose is your own stability and a backwards step in your process. That’s not nothing, my friend.
I think what you are struggling to accept is that currently, regardless of your w’s words, she simply does not care much what you feel or think. Her actions say so quite clearly. You simply cannot logic, guilt or nice her out of this....so it is more efficient to swallow the pill and accept it. If it changes, you’ll know.....

Your time would be better spent scouring the house of any of her remaining ‘stuff’, boxing it up and telling her when it is available to be picked up so you can knock on the head her ‘I just want to drop by to pick up more stuff’ game  and with a new baby coming soon, I’m sure you can all use any extra closet space 

Yeah I know. I should make the ties actually cut and get all her stuff out of here. Yesterday she picked up some stuff but deliberately left family photo frames.

 

Agreed with the above. Not sending will keep you as the better and stronger person.

Most days I think I am the stronger and better person......I'm still here supporting our family. Just some triggers occur that dent my armour.

I am also on team DONT SEND…. Not sending alone will give you some power back. Sending will only hurt you. Much like carrying hatred. It always turns back to you. I’m all for the print it out on paper and have a little bon fire and maybe indulge in some s'mores making while your at it!!  Maybe use some sticks that you wish you could beat some sense into the senseless.. hehe

Thank you. As above just typing to get it out of my head. It was a suggestion that was made to me on DivorceBusting forum but didn't sit well with what I've learnt to understand so far.

What have you got to lose? You just took credit for half the fault FOR HER CHEATING! No, just no.

Are you perfect, no. We're you really so unhappy in your marriage until she BD'D you? I'm thinking no. Should you allow her narrative to rewrite your whole marriage as being unsatisfactory  for BOTH  of you? I think not.

You gain nothing and lose a lot.

Upon reflection and reading the advice here I know I have a lot to lose. It will cement her thoughts and that I am the sole reason for her leaving.

So thanks once again all for grounding me.

[JohnnyBravo]

Thank you. As above just typing to get it out of my head. It was a suggestion that was made to me on DivorceBusting forum but didn't sit well with what I've learnt to understand so far.

Good instinct. I made a friend on here who I message privately,  and he's a couple of years ahead of me in this. I had signed up for a counseling package with DB, and the advice seemed bad (and my counselor was kind of a jackass). It turns out my friend got the same package and the same bad advice,  and both of us quit without using all of our sessions! I was suggested to write a letter to W listing my faults, at least as I thought W perceived them.  My friend said, "Rest assured that W knows all of your faults, they are everything about you, and she doesn't need any help finding more."

DB is probably good for "normal" breakups where both people want to find a path forward, but doesn't apply to MLC. The free advice I get here is better than much of what I've paid for. (I did sign up for RCR's Detach & Thrive course, and she's put a lot of work into that. Useful info there.)

I too find that venting here really helps me put things in perspective.

JB

[Pacman]

Thank you. As above just typing to get it out of my head. It was a suggestion that was made to me on DivorceBusting forum but didn't sit well with what I've learnt to understand so far.

Good instinct. I made a friend on here who I message privately,  and he's a couple of years ahead of me in this. I had signed up for a counseling package with DB, and the advice seemed bad (and my counselor was kind of a jackass). It turns out my friend got the same package and the same bad advice,  and both of us quit without using all of our sessions! I was suggested to write a letter to W listing my faults, at least as I thought W perceived them.  My friend said, "Rest assured that W knows all of your faults, they are everything about you, and she doesn't need any help finding more."

DB is probably good for "normal" breakups where both people want to find a path forward, but doesn't apply to MLC. The free advice I get here is better than much of what I've paid for. (I did sign up for RCR's Detach & Thrive course, and she's put a lot of work into that. Useful info there.)

I too find that venting here really helps me put things in perspective.

JB

Yep they know our faults or reasons that they are  using. No need to rehash the past if you want to move forward. Especially as it just validates the narrative.
I found DB to be more about last ditch efforts or moving on and giving up.

[Pacman]

So had a bit of text between us last night.
She said she is tired and exhausted and has broken down crying at work this week as we were meant to be on a holiday right now plus she came to the house to get more of her stuff and it was in a wardrobe outside on the porch.

Also said she broke our family and is upset at the way people are blaming the  AP for breaking up the family.

She is still very hurt and angry that I didn't gethelp for my drinking and past issues.

I just feel like it's at a loss.

[Kind18]

Hi PacMan.

This sort of manipulation really tugs at the heart strings of men - because many of us are wired to be very protective.

You need to see this for what it is… you’ve levelled up emotionally, gained strength and have put moves in place (like putting her stuff out of the house) and now she’s all wobbly because plan B isn’t looking too safe any more.

This is perhaps the first time she has really started joining the dots. The consequence of her affair and lies is biting her, and she’s at least partly acknowledging the destruction she has unleashed on your family unit.

Your next move is extremely important. If you try and comfort her pain, or try to fix hard things for her (“maybe you can leave some of your stuff here a bit longer” or “can I drop it to your new place for you”) … it’s a fatal move. A man who tries to be nice or fix the problems is like blood in the water to a WW.

These are the consequences of her choices, and while you aren’t deliberately trying to punish her, none of this is your problem to fix. In fact, try to fix it or show compassion and you might as well write her a letter that says “I’m weak and still waiting for you.”

One the hardest things for me to accept during my sitch was that it’s entirely okay to feel sad for someone you love making $h!te decisions and having a tough time… while simultaneously walking in the exact opposite direction with sunnies on 

Once I learned I could be sad for her and the pile of steaming of $h!te she created without having to fix it, I became a new person overnight.

Don’t be an arsehole, don’t make it worse. But her grief is her problem now, not yours. She can talk to her friends or her counsellor. She gave up the right for your to fix things for her when she pissed all over your marriage. Fixing her problems and comforting her… that sounds like the job of a husband, not an ex.

Stay strong. Feel sad for her (and for you), but don’t succumb to the manipulation.

Not your circus, not your monkeys.

[Pacman]

Hi PacMan.

This sort of manipulation really tugs at the heart strings of men - because many of us are wired to be very protective.

You need to see this for what it is… you’ve levelled up emotionally, gained strength and have put moves in place (like putting her stuff out of the house) and now she’s all wobbly because plan B isn’t looking too safe any more.

Deep down she knows I'm still here but I think reality did kick in a little bit for her.
Our son asked her if I knew she was here to get her gear and if I said it was OK to go inside. And that he was asking out of respect to me.
She got upset and "politely" told him it was still her home.....even though I'm paying for everything, on paper it might be.

This is perhaps the first time she has really started joining the dots. The consequence of her affair and lies is biting her, and she’s at least partly acknowledging the destruction she has unleashed on your family unit.

She fluctuates between saying that she broke up the family to Your drinking hurt so much I had to leave for myself.
She knows and has seen the change in me and that I have got help.....It's too late for me she says. It hurt too much.
More feel that it's because she got caught in her affair and doesn't know how to dig herself out of the hole.

Your next move is extremely important. If you try and comfort her pain, or try to fix hard things for her (“maybe you can leave some of your stuff here a bit longer” or “can I drop it to your new place for you”) … it’s a fatal move. A man who tries to be nice or fix the problems is like blood in the water to a WW.

These are the consequences of her choices, and while you aren’t deliberately trying to punish her, none of this is your problem to fix. In fact, try to fix it or show compassion and you might as well write her a letter that says “I’m weak and still waiting for you.”

One the hardest things for me to accept during my sitch was that it’s entirely okay to feel sad for someone you love making $h!te decisions and having a tough time… while simultaneously walking in the exact opposite direction with sunnies on   
Once I learned I could be sad for her and the pile of steaming of $h!te she created without having to fix it, I became a new person overnight.

Don’t be an arsehole, don’t make it worse. But her grief is her problem now, not yours. She can talk to her friends or her counsellor. She gave up the right for your to fix things for her when she pissed all over your marriage. Fixing her problems and comforting her… that sounds like the job of a husband, not an ex.

As much as at times I hate her (not really....just what she is doing) and want to be nasty it's not in my nature but I also have to let her work out the consequences by herself.
She stopped her counseling and now uses her gal pals and the AP as her sounding board.

Not your circus, not your monkeys.

Don't I know it........

On a brighter note got to meet my grandson yesterday. He was born 2 nights ago.
Due to COVID restrictions only 1 visitor per day allowed in the hospital. My son and his girlfriend chose me (they live with me).
Is it nasty to say I was happy that she missed out?

Also our  friends went on the holiday that was preplanned. Sent me a message about the accomodation and thanked me. I just replied with a thumbs up.
As it upset me and I'd asked not to know anything about the holiday.
Then yesterday I got a message congratulating on birth of grandson. I saw it but as I was driving didn't respond straight away.
He then sends me a message saying that I've been rude and doesn't want a response and that he is blocking me.
I know at times I have been difficult to deal with but have tried to keep them out of the situation however she has made it extremely difficult by living there.
I have told him numerous times it is awkward for me with her living there and I'm trying to keep my distance.

[HeavenlyFocus]

Your next move is extremely important. If you try and comfort her pain, or try to fix hard things for her (“maybe you can leave some of your stuff here a bit longer” or “can I drop it to your new place for you”) … it’s a fatal move. A man who tries to be nice or fix the problems is like blood in the water to a WW.

These are the consequences of her choices, and while you aren’t deliberately trying to punish her, none of this is your problem to fix. In fact, try to fix it or show compassion and you might as well write her a letter that says “I’m weak and still waiting for you.”

One the hardest things for me to accept during my sitch was that it’s entirely okay to feel sad for someone you love making $h!te decisions and having a tough time… while simultaneously walking in the exact opposite direction with sunnies on   
Once I learned I could be sad for her and the pile of steaming of $h!te she created without having to fix it, I became a new person overnight.

Don’t be an arsehole, don’t make it worse. But her grief is her problem now, not yours. She can talk to her friends or her counsellor. She gave up the right for your to fix things for her when she pissed all over your marriage. Fixing her problems and comforting her… that sounds like the job of a husband, not an ex.

As much as at times I hate her (not really....just what she is doing) and want to be nasty it's not in my nature but I also have to let her work out the consequences by herself.
She stopped her counseling and now uses her gal pals and the AP as her sounding board.

Hi Pacman,

Kind18 is spot on about trying to comfort her pain and fix the hard things.   This has been my biggest struggle and I always have taken care of my wife as she has dealt with her own health issues.   As we get close to finalizing our divorce, I did make one last attempt to help her with her struggles with alcohol and offer again to work on the marriage.   Of course it didn't help and I just have to accept that she will have to figure things out on her own.

Glad you got to see your grandson and I'm sorry to hear about your friend.   I have had some relationships that have also gone sour through not fault of my own but just collateral damage from the D with my W.  You need to protect yourself first and you not responding right away is not a reason for a true friend to block you.   I have found out who my true friends over the past year and am also making new friends too.   

HF

[Kind18]

It's too late for me she says.

This is grade A, top shelf BS.

She says these things because she’s trying to justify the flaming turd sandwich she has served up for you and your kids.

What better way to make herself feel better about her affair than to make it all your fault? Don’t take the bait, she’s trying to get a reaction from you.

Option 1:
Pacman: “It’s not too late, I’ve changed and stopped drinking.”
Pacman’s cheating ex thinks to herself: I’ve still got him as plan B, he’s weak as piss.

Option 2
Pacman: “Gotta run, I’ve got plans tonight.”
Pacman’s cheating ex thinks to herself: Wow, he seems really strong and doesn’t need me. Strong men are attractive. Maybe my affair is destroying my family.”

More feel that it's because she got caught in her affair and doesn't know how to dig herself out of the hole.

Bingo.

And that’s not Pacman’s problem to solve.

[MadLuv]

Can I just say how much I love kind18 response??? Ummmm, spot on and humorous.

[UrsaMajor]

Can I just say how much I love kind18 response??? Ummmm, spot on and humorous.

Except that, in Option 2, he anticipates that the Mid-Lifer actually thinks that their actions might be having a negative effect on their family.... Good Luck with that ... While they are in replay, the consequences of their actions are nowhere NEAR the radar screen of the Mid-Lifer... The ONLY thing that they are concerned with is where their next shot of "happy" is coming from and the rest of the world (and the LBS / family in particular) is either standing between them and that shot and can sod off OR is enabling them to get their shot...

The Mid-Lifer will not make the connection between their actions and any negative consequences as they impact others until they are on their way OUT of the tunnel.....

[Pacman]

It's too late for me she says.

This is grade A, top shelf BS.

She says these things because she’s trying to justify the flaming turd sandwich she has served up for you and your kids.

I had to laugh at this. It's true but oh so sad at the same time.

What better way to make herself feel better about her affair than to make it all your fault? Don’t take the bait, she’s trying to get a reaction from you.

This is where I really struggle. I just want to take a 2 x 4 and smack some sense into her or get her to actually do the right thing and if she wants to completely finalise things.

More feel that it's because she got caught in her affair and doesn't know how to dig herself out of the hole.

Bingo.

And that’s not Pacman’s problem to solve.

And don't I know it is not my pile of crap to fix.

[Kind18]

This is where I really struggle. I just want to take a 2 x 4 and smack some sense into her or get her to actually do the right thing and if she wants to completely finalise things.

I need you to picture this.

You go to Rio de Janeiro…. or Johannesburg, or the slums of India. You find the mankiest, most rabid feral cat you can find. You feed it a bunch of meth, lock it in a tiny cage, and put it in the sweltering sun on a 100 degree day.

And then you sit down next to the cage on a deck chair, and try to talk some sense into the cat.

Q: How do you think that’s going to go?
A: It’s going to go about the same as trying to force an MLC wayward spouse to wake up and realise their irrational, hurtful, addictive and crazy behaviour.

I’ve been there. Most of the people on this board have been there. And it’s a one way ticket to anger, frustration and heartbreak.

Save your energy, and use it to pour happiness into your new life.

It’s a marathon, not a sprint. Hang in there PacMan, you’re doing great. Be the lighthouse for your kids 💪

[UrsaMajor]

You go to Rio de Janeiro…. or Johannesburg, or the slums of India. You find the mankiest, most rabid feral cat you can find. You feed it a bunch of meth, lock it in a tiny cage, and put it in the sweltering sun on a 100 degree day.

And then you sit down next to the cage on a deck chair, and try to talk some sense into the cat.

Q: How do you think that’s going to go?
A: It’s going to go about the same as trying to force an MLC wayward spouse to wake up and realise their irrational, hurtful, addictive and crazy behaviour.

Or, as I always write - about the same as tasting green with your elbow....

I’ve been there. Most of the people on this board have been there. And it’s a one way ticket to anger, frustration and heartbreak.

Save your energy, and use it to pour happiness into your new life.

It’s a marathon, not a sprint. Hang in there PacMan, you’re doing great. Be the lighthouse for your kids 💪

It is an ultra-marathon slog through a knee-deep bog.... and trying to force the Mid-Lifer to do ANYTHING is like trying to take a jellyfish for a walk on a string... They are going to do what they are going to do... Unless there are issues regarding finances or legal issues that force you to take the lead, let her do the dirty work. It is NOT your D, it is NOT your Crisis, it is NOT your job to take the responsibility for getting things taken care of so she can go off into her Schmoopie-Land fantasy...

You have, as OP says, the gift of time. You are not forced to do ANYTHING except to live your life and be the stable parent for your kids....

The more rent-free space you give her in your head, the harder you make this on yourself.... because you are focusing on her rather than on your own healing, your own life...

[Pacman]

It is an ultra-marathon slog through a knee-deep bog.... and trying to force the Mid-Lifer to do ANYTHING is like trying to take a jellyfish for a walk on a string... They are going to do what they are going to do... Unless there are issues regarding finances or legal issues that force you to take the lead, let her do the dirty work. It is NOT your D, it is NOT your Crisis, it is NOT your job to take the responsibility for getting things taken care of so she can go off into her Schmoopie-Land fantasy...

You have, as OP says, the gift of time. You are not forced to do ANYTHING except to live your life and be the stable parent for your kids....

The more rent-free space you give her in your head, the harder you make this on yourself.... because you are focusing on her rather than on your own healing, your own life...

I feel like I am being forced to make decisions to cut her out completely while she continues seeing her OH however part of me says if she wants this she can do the dirty work.
The gift of time......is what kills me. I have so much time on my hands with thoughts that run rampant.
I know I'm making it harder on myself and some days I think I've got this and don't care about the outcome....others not so much.
I can control myself and my decisions I get that, just sick of her inability to see or deal with any of the consequences. I'm sure in her head she has dealt with it by moving out and taking "some" of her stuff.

The problem is pretty much everyone who knows says "move on", "get a lawyer" blah blah. They have no empathy for what I'm feeling or going through which in reality is the greatest struggle of my life.

I feel helpless with little control over my future which I know is not true of course BUT the future that I wish to have has been ripped away from me.

[Standing Strong]

Hey Pac,
 

I know it can be difficult when time is abundant. So let's explore that a bit......
What is it that you want to do? Nothing to do with her, what about you?
Hobbies, interests, something you want to learn to do..... something..... or many somethings 

When they are unplugged and blasted off into space, that does create a hole, but there's no need in looking at the hole and longing for what was in it. There's all that area around the hole that needs working on. In time, the hole barely matters because the rest has become so nice. That's when you'll realize the hole was never that big to begin with.

So...... what is it that sounds really good to you right now? Pick something and try it. Probably end up picking many things, and that's good!!
Some suggestions that are easy, fun and inexpensive: I'd try a meet up, they do all kinds of things. Different things. Fun things. Doesn't take much time, and getting out is SOOOOO healthy. Interact with other adults, laugh. There's a whole world out there, and I'm NOT talking about hooking up. In my case, it did months of nature walks with other adults who had nowhere else to be (like me, LOL!!) canoe ride.... all until I was strong and stable enough to make events on my own. It also bolsters your self-esteem to be around others. No talking about all the problems, just living. Great stuff for the hurting LBS.
Just a thought. 

-SS

 

[Kind18]

Hi PacMan.

That sure sounds tough. Why do you think it consumes so much of your time thinking about it?

We have empathy for you. It’s a terrible, emotionally distressing time. Sometimes you probably just feel like you’re at the mercy of this crazy person and you are a passenger on a scary rollercoaster and you can’t get off.

Have you considered some professional intervention/counselling? I only used this a few times, through my employee assistance program. It wasn’t a quick fix, but I stuck to the advice and it really pulled me out of that headspace.

Perhaps you should seek a bit of external help? Most have, and most find it very valuable.

[Pacman]

Hi PacMan.

That sure sounds tough. Why do you think it consumes so much of your time thinking about it?

We have empathy for you. It’s a terrible, emotionally distressing time. Sometimes you probably just feel like you’re at the mercy of this crazy person and you are a passenger on a scary rollercoaster and you can’t get off.

Have you considered some professional intervention/counselling? I only used this a few times, through my employee assistance program. It wasn’t a quick fix, but I stuck to the advice and it really pulled me out of that headspace.

Perhaps you should seek a bit of external help? Most have, and most find it very valuable.

I have had counselling and it works for a while but then I get in my own head again and spiral.
I meant friends/family have no empathy.
I do feel like I'm the crazy one in all this.
I can't get out of my own head.

Hey Pac,
 

I know it can be difficult when time is abundant. So let's explore that a bit......
What is it that you want to do? Nothing to do with her, what about you?
Hobbies, interests, something you want to learn to do..... something..... or many somethings 

When they are unplugged and blasted off into space, that does create a hole, but there's no need in looking at the hole and longing for what was in it. There's all that area around the hole that needs working on. In time, the hole barely matters because the rest has become so nice. That's when you'll realize the hole was never that big to begin with.

So...... what is it that sounds really good to you right now? Pick something and try it. Probably end up picking many things, and that's good!!
Some suggestions that are easy, fun and inexpensive: I'd try a meet up, they do all kinds of things. Different things. Fun things. Doesn't take much time, and getting out is SOOOOO healthy. Interact with other adults, laugh. There's a whole world out there, and I'm NOT talking about hooking up. In my case, it did months of nature walks with other adults who had nowhere else to be (like me, LOL!!) canoe ride.... all until I was strong and stable enough to make events on my own. It also bolsters your self-esteem to be around others. No talking about all the problems, just living. Great stuff for the hurting LBS.
Just a thought. 

-SS

I really am not in the frame of mind to catch up with people and DEFINITELY not interested in any sort of relationship with anyone else.
I feel like I'm being sucked into the vortex that she created and am spinning out of control.
My job is dealing with incarcerated people and their problems. Sometimes I just don't want to listen as much as I know the problems are big to them they seem insignificant compared to what I'm going through.

[Standing Strong]

Ahhhh, I understand Pac,

That makes total sense.

I really would encourage you to try something like that though. The feelings we go thru when all this is going on (especially in the opening months)..... it's so very easy to get pulled into depression, to feel worthless, to want to hide. That pull can be so strong.
The thing is, you aren't any of those things. Worthy of friendship, worthy of being around others, worthy to be heard and for people to enjoy your presence.
A lot of men (myself included) often put so much into our W's that when they disappear, a big part of us seems to disappear as well. It's an illusion. All of you is right there. Getting yourself to open up is super tough to start, but it's just one step at a time. I think being around people can really help with this, but we are all different.

Sorry it's so rough Pac, really feeling for ya.

-SS

[Kind18]

I really am not in the frame of mind to catch up with people and DEFINITELY not interested in any sort of relationship with anyone else.
I feel like I'm being sucked into the vortex that she created and am spinning out of control.
My job is dealing with incarcerated people and their problems. Sometimes I just don't want to listen as much as I know the problems are big to them they seem insignificant compared to what I'm going through.

This makes it really clear that you need to seek help. You may have done so in the past, but I think it’s time you do so again. I think you’re just in a big rut, and it can seem insurmountable to extract yourself on your own.

[Pacman]

Saw this thread and it resonates.

https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=4097.msg253157#msg253157

"Remember you need to get past their self hatred. it's a pretty high and thick wall they've made for themselves. you really have to convince them you are sincere in your desires to take them back and to love them without judgement. They are scared to say the least. Then there's also all that damage they've done that they can't even access because it's too painful.........

Bottom line - reassure them you love them and want them back. Reassure them you will forgive them. And mean it. It's very hard to do (nearly impossible) but it won't work unless you do."

I wonder if she is actually in MLC and therefore I can't get passed her wall or if her blaming me is the "real" reason for her decision.
I have a feeling that she is scared to be hurt again but also deflecting all her anger and guilt as to me being the sole cause of this situation.
Either way to take this course of action would just push her further into her fog....would it not?

Because as I understand it she is so in limerance and denial that nothing I say or do will sink in?

Besides which the few times I have seen her it's like she is dead behind the eyes yet pretending to be so happy with life.

[UrsaMajor]

Besides which the few times I have seen her it's like she is dead behind the eyes yet pretending to be so happy with life.

That is what we call "Shark Eyes" here - dilated pupils, no expression, just big black pits into nothing... It seems to be an actual physical symptom for the mental instability and turmoil going on inside.


The thread you mention is REALLY a throwback (LONG before I got here).  However, what ForeverStander and UKStander are discussing appears to be what we call now being the anchor for the Mid-Lifer... The Mid-Lifer knows that the LBS is sitting at home waiting for them to come back - sitting and waiting ... and waiting ... and waiting... and the Mid-Lifer can do whatever and whoever they want for as long as they want and the LBS will still be sitting on the porch in their rocking chair, crocheting lace doilies and patiently waiting... Does that sound like someone that YOU would find attractive? What about that LBS who spends years (and yes, we are talking years - the average seems to be 7+ assuming the Mid-Lifer ever gets their head out of their .... fog...) waiting... What have they done with THEIR life in the meanwhile? OK, they can crochet lace doilies and, if they have bought Stock in Kleenex, they probably made a lot of profit based on the pile of soggy ones around their rocking chair but they have lost years on a gamble that the Mid-Lifer might return....

Bottom line is that you have NO control over what your MLCW is going to do. The ONLY thing you can control is your own life, your own emotions, your own choices. You can choose to find things that give you joy and pleasure in the here and now (and that does NOT mean another R!), you can choose to rediscover things that you liked to do that maybe got pushed aside due to being a responsible adult in a marriage and find out if they are still interesting, you can choose to be an active participant in the life outside the box that was built around you and your MLCW... You can choose growth, self-improvement, introspection on what you'd like to change about yourself and actually DO it (go to the gym, train to run a marathon, get an advanced degree or other course of study, take up a new hobby, dust off an old hobby - the list is endless)

You can also choose to stay right where she left you, sitting on the porch, crocheting doilies, and waiting for her to MAYBE decide that "Hey, life with PacMan wasn't so bad. Maybe I should go back." 

However, I would surmise that you are worth more than being "Plan B."  You need to believe that though.

I also agree with Kind18 - Getting some professional help at this point would probably give you some new tools to deal with the turd sandwich that MLCW has served you on a golden platter....

[Trustandlove]

Again wading in here carefully....

I remember discussions like that: IMO communicating how you feel is something you do once, and in the proper context.  Just saying so to have said it doesn't really go anywhere.   

It's like telling them that the divorce isn't what you want.  You do so once; they then know that.  Then you get on with life for you -- I don't think it means "waiting", crocheting doilies, or anything like that. 

We used to say "standing doesn't mean still"; it does mean that you do what is best for you.  Just like we say for the  MLCers; actions speak louder than words.  We don't need to slap them in the face and say "See, I'm out having a blast, I don't need you"; IMO we just need to get on with our lives.  We don't have any control over how they take whatever they see or hear. 

I don't see a conflict between choosing to do all the things that UM says, and standing if that is what you want to do.  I don't see a conflict between saying "sorry, what you are asking doesn't work for me" be that child arrangements, settlements, or whatever, and standing if that is what you want to do. 

I think the context of the discussion you posted it is something for a different time in all this, not for when they are actively running far from you.  They have to have some kind of awareness that they are doing harm.

Just as an anecdote, sample of one, my H asked, only about 6 months in, if I could ever forgive him.  I said of course.  That was true at the time.  But for whatever reason it didn't change anything; I can wonder to the end of time if he felt too much shame; if an OW or someone else convinced  him that I would never be able to (I know that there were people saying things like that to him), or what have you.  It was appropriate to say it then, but wouldn't have been if I had just come out with it out of context.  And believe me, I tried that as well before I learned. 

[Treasur]

I’m treading carefully too, Pac, bc we can see how big and painful and confusing your feelings are right now. Which is completely normal in this kind of situation. Sucky, but normal.

Imho one of the pretty common patterns is that, at least for a while, LBS place too much weight on words and MLCers too little. Which is not to disparage how you feel....but to suggest actually the exact opposite of your instinct to use your words with her. Rather, use your words with yourself. Listen to what you say to yourself with care and respect, the kind of care and respect that current evidence suggests your w will not give them. And take your time to work out what those words mean for you and how you live your life.

I’m not sure that the label we put on the cause eg limerence matters as much as being able to see the reality of someone else’s behaviour. If someone is behaving as if they do not care what you think or feel, as if there is no space for discussion about a middle ground, as if there is no We......then tbh, regardless of the cause, your precious words and feelings will fall on stony ground rather than being the kind of good seeds you wish them to be. 

The options may look different if someone’s behaviour looks different......if/when someone wants to open up conversations rather than defend their POV or justify their actions....but the old thread post you linked to seems to me to be almost disrespectful of someone else’s POV, almost manipulative tbh. Imagine how you would feel if we posted here arguing that how you feel is silly so you should just buck up and feel differently tout suite? Or that we know better than you do how you feel right now bc we know better than you? Wouldn’t that make you dig in a bit more rather than not? Or take advantage of someone saying that you can do whatever you want to them without boundaries or RL consequences? And tbh I am not sure that promises to forgive can be made entirely honestly early on when we do not always know the scale of what might need to be forgiven lol or how our own thinking might evolve about the value of any reconnection down the line. And to see too that forgiveness and reconciliation are not necessarily the same things at all, that one does not automatically create the other. I am not sure I would have seen it this way in the first couple of years post BD, and pre-divorce, when I think part of my trauma response was to be like a hunter submarine version of a lighthouse lol....but I see it that way now, years on.

I am sure your wife knows that none of this is what you want and that you would choose a different path forward if you had a free choice. You would be a very unusual LBS if you had not said so post BD. Your need to repeat it and rephrase it is more about how you feel, understandably, than anything else.....a kind of Hail Mary pass metaphorically.....hence learning to talk to yourself a bit 

It isn’t that she doesn’t understand....it’s that she disagrees and/or doesn’t see what you want as relevant now. I’m sorry. It’s very painful, I know. If that changes, trust that you will know. Until then, my friend, I would suggest you save your words for folks who care enough to listen with good intent......including a kind inner self, perhaps a good IC  and God/the universe depending on your beliefs.

[MadLuv]

What Treasur said X1000!!!!!  So spot on. I repeated myself in different forms trying to break through and it was futile. Their head is spinning and nothing we say can stop the spin for them to change their point of view. The one honest thing my XH said in our last conversation was the most clear and honest thing he said to me. He said…I had to pick a road. This is the road I chose. I don’t know where I am headed, but I have to see what this is. It was a bit of clarity from him that he understood that something is drawing him to do this and he has no control over it. Their was some comfort in it. That was the moment I was able to set him free to live and make his choices and stop disrupting his path

[OffRoad]

I note one important thing in what you post, Pacman. It's not usually just anything you had done or said. Were you perfect? Doubtful. But heathy people discuss the situation and work it out. If she told you there were issues and you hid your head in the sand and she had finally had enough because nothing was changing, probably not MLC. If you were blindsided like most of us, probably MLC. If it's MLC nothing you say or do or said or did really matters to her. She will make up any reason to escape.

People have sympathy. Unless they have experienced this, they cannot have empathy.  And know that most THINK that if you will just move on, you won't keep spinning out of control, so they have what they consider your best interests at heart. If you think of it in that vein, it helps a little.  What you do need to do is move FORWARD, which as others have told you is to find your own life, things you like. That way, if she stays or goes, you will still be ok.

I drove off road. For a day or a weekend I was with a group of people who would not leave me behind, no matter what. I had control of myself and my car. I saw new things. I met new people from all over the world. I earned respect as the driver of the car that had no lift that could go where the big lift cars go. That was at 2vmo ths after BD and saved my sanity.

Do something where you can keep your mind from spinning, even if only for a little while. It's really hard early on, but it will improve hard as it is to believe right now. Time is your friend.

[Pacman]

Besides which the few times I have seen her it's like she is dead behind the eyes yet pretending to be so happy with life.

That is what we call "Shark Eyes" here - dilated pupils, no expression, just big black pits into nothing... It seems to be an actual physical symptom for the mental instability and turmoil going on inside.


The thread you mention is REALLY a throwback (LONG before I got here).  However, what ForeverStander and UKStander are discussing appears to be what we call now being the anchor for the Mid-Lifer... The Mid-Lifer knows that the LBS is sitting at home waiting for them to come back - sitting and waiting ... and waiting ... and waiting... and the Mid-Lifer can do whatever and whoever they want for as long as they want and the LBS will still be sitting on the porch in their rocking chair, crocheting lace doilies and patiently waiting... Does that sound like someone that YOU would find attractive? What about that LBS who spends years (and yes, we are talking years - the average seems to be 7+ assuming the Mid-Lifer ever gets their head out of their .... fog...) waiting... What have they done with THEIR life in the meanwhile? OK, they can crochet lace doilies and, if they have bought Stock in Kleenex, they probably made a lot of profit based on the pile of soggy ones around their rocking chair but they have lost years on a gamble that the Mid-Lifer might return....

Bottom line is that you have NO control over what your MLCW is going to do. The ONLY thing you can control is your own life, your own emotions, your own choices. You can choose to find things that give you joy and pleasure in the here and now (and that does NOT mean another R!), you can choose to rediscover things that you liked to do that maybe got pushed aside due to being a responsible adult in a marriage and find out if they are still interesting, you can choose to be an active participant in the life outside the box that was built around you and your MLCW... You can choose growth, self-improvement, introspection on what you'd like to change about yourself and actually DO it (go to the gym, train to run a marathon, get an advanced degree or other course of study, take up a new hobby, dust off an old hobby - the list is endless)

You can also choose to stay right where she left you, sitting on the porch, crocheting doilies, and waiting for her to MAYBE decide that "Hey, life with PacMan wasn't so bad. Maybe I should go back." 

However, I would surmise that you are worth more than being "Plan B."  You need to believe that though.

I also agree with Kind18 - Getting some professional help at this point would probably give you some new tools to deal with the turd sandwich that MLCW has served you on a golden platter....

I have got professional help and it is OK for a few hours afterwards. I feel level headed and grounded.
I know I can't control her and no it doesn't sound like an attractive person just sitting there wallowing.
In the 2 months from finding out about the affair and BD she was vague like she was living outside her body and anything posed question wise was met with I Dont Know or just general vagueness.

Again wading in here carefully....

I remember discussions like that: IMO communicating how you feel is something you do once, and in the proper context.  Just saying so to have said it doesn't really go anywhere.   

It's like telling them that the divorce isn't what you want.  You do so once; they then know that.  Then you get on with life for you -- I don't think it means "waiting", crocheting doilies, or anything like that. 

We used to say "standing doesn't mean still"; it does mean that you do what is best for you.  Just like we say for the  MLCers; actions speak louder than words.  We don't need to slap them in the face and say "See, I'm out having a blast, I don't need you"; IMO we just need to get on with our lives.  We don't have any control over how they take whatever they see or hear. 

I don't see a conflict between choosing to do all the things that UM says, and standing if that is what you want to do.  I don't see a conflict between saying "sorry, what you are asking doesn't work for me" be that child arrangements, settlements, or whatever, and standing if that is what you want to do. 

I think the context of the discussion you posted it is something for a different time in all this, not for when they are actively running far from you.  They have to have some kind of awareness that they are doing harm.

Just as an anecdote, sample of one, my H asked, only about 6 months in, if I could ever forgive him.  I said of course.  That was true at the time.  But for whatever reason it didn't change anything; I can wonder to the end of time if he felt too much shame; if an OW or someone else convinced  him that I would never be able to (I know that there were people saying things like that to him), or what have you.  It was appropriate to say it then, but wouldn't have been if I had just come out with it out of context.  And believe me, I tried that as well before I learned.

She knows that I'm still there and I won't be saying again however I have taken steps to have her stuff removed from the house, separate bank accounts, removed her ffrom my will (which I drafted shortly after finding about the affair as I was suicidal at the time).
I know that another woman who went through the same situation 2 years ago ......permenopause and affair, went back to her H for 18 months and then decided it would not work so left again. She has been talking to my W and "understands" what she is "going through". Positive reinforcement of her decision to leave the family.

I’m treading carefully too, Pac, bc we can see how big and painful and confusing your feelings are right now. Which is completely normal in this kind of situation. Sucky, but normal.

Imho one of the pretty common patterns is that, at least for a while, LBS place too much weight on words and MLCers too little. Which is not to disparage how you feel....but to suggest actually the exact opposite of your instinct to use your words with her. Rather, use your words with yourself. Listen to what you say to yourself with care and respect, the kind of care and respect that current evidence suggests your w will not give them. And take your time to work out what those words mean for you and how you live your life.

I’m not sure that the label we put on the cause eg limerence matters as much as being able to see the reality of someone else’s behaviour. If someone is behaving as if they do not care what you think or feel, as if there is no space for discussion about a middle ground, as if there is no We......then tbh, regardless of the cause, your precious words and feelings will fall on stony ground rather than being the kind of good seeds you wish them to be. 

The options may look different if someone’s behaviour looks different......if/when someone wants to open up conversations rather than defend their POV or justify their actions....but the old thread post you linked to seems to me to be almost disrespectful of someone else’s POV, almost manipulative tbh. Imagine how you would feel if we posted here arguing that how you feel is silly so you should just buck up and feel differently tout suite? Or that we know better than you do how you feel right now bc we know better than you? Wouldn’t that make you dig in a bit more rather than not? Or take advantage of someone saying that you can do whatever you want to them without boundaries or RL consequences? And tbh I am not sure that promises to forgive can be made entirely honestly early on when we do not always know the scale of what might need to be forgiven lol or how our own thinking might evolve about the value of any reconnection down the line. And to see too that forgiveness and reconciliation are not necessarily the same things at all, that one does not automatically create the other. I am not sure I would have seen it this way in the first couple of years post BD, and pre-divorce, when I think part of my trauma response was to be like a hunter submarine version of a lighthouse lol....but I see it that way now, years on.

I am sure your wife knows that none of this is what you want and that you would choose a different path forward if you had a free choice. You would be a very unusual LBS if you had not said so post BD. Your need to repeat it and rephrase it is more about how you feel, understandably, than anything else.....a kind of Hail Mary pass metaphorically.....hence learning to talk to yourself a bit 

It isn’t that she doesn’t understand....it’s that she disagrees and/or doesn’t see what you want as relevant now. I’m sorry. It’s very painful, I know. If that changes, trust that you will know. Until then, my friend, I would suggest you save your words for folks who care enough to listen with good intent......including a kind inner self, perhaps a good IC  and God/the universe depending on your beliefs.

This is why I'm here. People who do understand and it gives me time to vent, think about my course of action rather than blindly blurting out my thoughts and pushing myself upon her.
There have been times where she has said she understands the pain she has caused to the family but then she continues upon the same destructive behaviours. Also that she broke up the family but had to do it for herself.

I note one important thing in what you post, Pacman. It's not usually just anything you had done or said. Were you perfect? Doubtful. But heathy people discuss the situation and work it out. If she told you there were issues and you hid your head in the sand and she had finally had enough because nothing was changing, probably not MLC. If you were blindsided like most of us, probably MLC. If it's MLC nothing you say or do or said or did really matters to her. She will make up any reason to escape.

People have sympathy. Unless they have experienced this, they cannot have empathy.  And know that most THINK that if you will just move on, you won't keep spinning out of control, so they have what they consider your best interests at heart. If you think of it in that vein, it helps a little.  What you do need to do is move FORWARD, which as others have told you is to find your own life, things you like. That way, if she stays or goes, you will still be ok.

I drove off road. For a day or a weekend I was with a group of people who would not leave me behind, no matter what. I had control of myself and my car. I saw new things. I met new people from all over the world. I earned respect as the driver of the car that had no lift that could go where the big lift cars go. That was at 2vmo ths after BD and saved my sanity.

Do something where you can keep your mind from spinning, even if only for a little while. It's really hard early on, but it will improve hard as it is to believe right now. Time is your friend.

It was a bit of both. There were issues and I did have my head in the sand. As soon as affair was found out it was the "shock" I needed to take positive action and I did.
The issue was there however not 100% of the time as she has now made the narrative. If we went out for dinner I would not necessarily have an alcoholic drink but then she would say would you like one? I did drink and will make no misconceptions as to why or excuses. Just not as much as her narrative or belief would have it.
She says the changes can be seen but "too late"........funnily enough that comment coincided with getting caught in the affair.
She has affaired down with a guy who lives with his exW and has done so for 10 years. Great future there.
The rest of her actions and words are so similar to many tales here that I firmly believe that MLC does have a part in all this.
She says I made her have the affair. NO I did not. I may have contributed to her unhappiness however she CHOSE to break our relationship by going to another prick and keeping it secret from me, our sons and our friends. "I knew it was wrong but was thinking of me".
All the while playing families and becoming more intimate with me  UNTIL she was caught and then it all crashed.

[forthetrees]

A mantra that gave me a lot of help was: I will not get sucked into your eddy of despair.
They seem to want to enjoin the LBS in the misery.

Have you ever tried grounding exercises to release the negative energy of the folks you work with at the end of your day or your wife´s negative energy?

Her affair is all on her. Her statement about you changing your relationship with alcohol coming too late due to past damage is one that may hold truth for her even if she did not have an affair. It would be a very difficult task to separate the two. Don´t want you to list what she may think that damage may be. It is worth thinking about how life was when you lived together with alcohol as a third entity in the marriage. Of course she had other options to what she has done if the drinking was just too much for her to handle. Yes, it does matter greatly how someone leaves a relationship even if the end result is the same as in no partner.

[MadLuv]

I know that another woman who went through the same situation 2 years ago ......permenopause and affair, went back to her H for 18 months and then decided it would not work so left again. She has been talking to my W and "understands" what she is "going through". Positive reinforcement of her decision to leave the family

I moved my XH out for 10 months. He came back and left 2 years later to the date and was so much worse. I hadn’t found this site. I would have understood better what I was dealing with. He followed the MLC script all the way. Came back to early. Didn’t work on his issues and now is running harder and faster and more destructive than ever. Black eyes. Aged 20 years. Moved OW in. It’s all a hard lesson to learn to back away and allow them to fall in their own pit of despair. They may or may not work it out. I think mine will never want to admit he risked so much and failed. That’s why you have to try and just move on to your best of your ability. Easier said than done. I am just getting their now!!

[Pacman]

A mantra that gave me a lot of help was: I will not get sucked into your eddy of despair.
They seem to want to enjoin the LBS in the misery.

Have you ever tried grounding exercises to release the negative energy of the folks you work with at the end of your day or your wife´s negative energy?

Her affair is all on her. Her statement about you changing your relationship with alcohol coming too late due to past damage is one that may hold truth for her even if she did not have an affair. It would be a very difficult task to separate the two. Don´t want you to list what she may think that damage may be. It is worth thinking about how life was when you lived together with alcohol as a third entity in the marriage. Of course she had other options to what she has done if the drinking was just too much for her to handle. Yes, it does matter greatly how someone leaves a relationship even if the end result is the same as in no partner.

She changes her reasoning for leaving from the drinking, being unhappy, me making her do it, to her breaking up the family. Basically whatever excuse or reason she can come up with to validate her decision.
BD was 2months after her being found out and also 2 months worth of deliberate positive change in my behaviour and drinking. "I can see your changing and I'm happy you are".
Her first husband cheated on her so if she was that UNHAPPY she should have just left without having her affair first (as she knows the damage an affair does). This plus the script, behaviours and actions she has followed is what leads me to place her in the MLC category.

I moved my XH out for 10 months. He came back and left 2 years later to the date and was so much worse. I hadn’t found this site. I would have understood better what I was dealing with. He followed the MLC script all the way. Came back to early. Didn’t work on his issues and now is running harder and faster and more destructive than ever. Black eyes. Aged 20 years. Moved OW in. It’s all a hard lesson to learn to back away and allow them to fall in their own pit of despair. They may or may not work it out. I think mine will never want to admit he risked so much and failed. That’s why you have to try and just move on to your beat of your ability. Easier said than done. I am just getting their now!!

I get this 100%. I'm a fixer, black and white male attitude and want results ASAP.
(Hence my attitude is that if it was just the drinking then I'd get rid of her completely and move on and continue working on myself which I will do anyway)
Whereas she is in all sorts of grey and potentially in the fog.
She is a good person but IMO making bad choices. To walk away from our family home when both sons have now got their babies living there (4 months and 4 days) tells me that something is not right.
This forum and the website have been a great tool for me to get some understanding of what "may" be going on.

[Pacman]

I need to realise.....


I am collateral damage to her inner demons.

I am faithful and didn't cheat so don't punish myself.

I am a good person deep down and if they don't see it that is their problem.

I am Spartan and we are tough and don't give up.

[Pacman]

So last weekend we had a text session.
She said she still loves me but couldn't continue the way it was.
Can see that I got help and us happy that I have.

Also I changed my profile pic to our 2 grandchildren.
She copied it and used it as hers within half an hour.

Won't deny that she us still seeing AP and ignored when questioned if they had sex.
So I'm saying it was more than what she will tell me and is fighting herself.

I'm almost at the point I don't care anymore.
She isn't the person I married. It hurts but I cannot keep beating myself up for her choice to have an affair and leave the family.

[Pacman]

No major updates. Just the same old crap shoot.

She overtook me and my son yesterday morning as I drove him to work due to him having car issues. Totally oblivious that it was us but then sent me a text saying "I didn't realise it was you until I got to the roundabout. Have a nice day".  My reply "thanks, you too".
How the hell am I meant to have a nice day when she is doing this to me and the family?

Son is suffering depression and has put himself into debt with personal loans. His partner drops the baby into his arms at any possible chance even though he works full time. I'm trying to help out where I can but am running myself ragged and burning out.

Other son, his girlfriend and new born are doing really well thankfully. One less worry for me.

I just wish this whole crap shoot was over and I could really try and move forward. Doing my best but 1 step forward and 10 back it seems.
I am so tired and out of energy at all times. I feel flat and not motivated. Just going through the motions.

I did go out last Friday night to a birthday party and had a semblance of a good time but then half way through the party it hit me again. In a room full of couples and I'm by myself. 

And DIL2 has asked what we are doing for Christmas.....funnily enough until Feb this year I didn't place any importance or get enjoyment out of these sort of events but am actually looking forward to doing something with what is left of my family this year.

[MadLuv]

Ughhh, my S28 is also suffering depression. My heart breaks for your son and you. Nothing is worse than your child not matter the age struggling. Also, on the niceties?? My XH told me he wants me to be happy a couple months ago. I quickly told him that I can wish you that, because this is the route you are taking. Don’t ever say that to me. I didn’t ask for any of this. I don’t believe in divorce and I wanted a lifetime marriage and you took that away me. Never tell me you want me to be happy.

[Pacman]

Ughhh, my S28 is also suffering depression. My heart breaks for your son and you. Nothing is worse than your child not matter the age struggling. Also, on the niceties?? My XH told me he wants me to be happy a couple months ago. I quickly told him that I can wish you that, because this is the route you are taking. Don’t ever say that to me. I didn’t ask for any of this. I don’t believe in divorce and I wanted a lifetime marriage and you took that away me. Never tell me you want me to be happy.

Do you believe they tell you that (I want you to be happy) so it takes away from their feelings of guilt about what they are doing?

[JohnnyBravo]

Do you believe they tell you that (I want you to be happy) so it takes away from their feelings of guilt about what they are doing?

Absolutely. Second paragraph under the list of "what or who is Monster?"

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/mlc_overview_monster.html

My W even offered to go out with me to be my "wingman" and help me meet women. No thanks.

[Trustandlove]

Absolutely it's to relieve the guilt that they are feeling.  I've heard it many times; he "just wants to put it all behind us" and each have other partners, all that.  And he's even got angry that I don't have someone else, saying that I "refuse to be happy".  It's all that he feels guilty and wants not to (even years later), and still continues to blame me, or anything other than his own actions. 

[MadLuv]

100% it is to relieve their guilt. I know my XH cares for me. He just can not undo what is done and can’t face me and the shame of his actions. In saying that is there some truth? Sure, until it really happens. They can say it, because they don’t believe we can. They want us right where they left us, but if they tell us to move on they don’t have to feel as guilty with their current actions and state of mind.

They are living in an altered state and even for them it is AT THE MOMENT relief of pain decisions. So, if they think they caused pain to us, then their relief is saying..be happy. Not they want us to find someone else, but they dont want to face the pain of their actions. My XH in other conversations has said the thought of me being with someone else is somewhere he can’t go in his thinking. He breaks down in a blubbering mess. He gets almost frantic in his response when the topic has come up. I said, so you will be ok if I start dating?  I DON’T WANT TO THINK ABOUT IT!!!!  So which is it?? LOL, plzzzzzzz   

[UrsaMajor]

That was a text that, in all reality, didn't warrant a response....

No one was dying, no one was bleeding, it didn't relate to any issues regarding finances or the kids....

In the Rule of 3, that would have been a "3 Months if ever" reply

File it in the WTF Folder

[Pacman]

Ughhh, my S28 is also suffering depression. My heart breaks for your son and you. Nothing is worse than your child not matter the age struggling. Also, on the niceties?? My XH told me he wants me to be happy a couple months ago. I quickly told him that I can wish you that, because this is the route you are taking. Don’t ever say that to me. I didn’t ask for any of this. I don’t believe in divorce and I wanted a lifetime marriage and you took that away me. Never tell me you want me to be happy.

I feel the same way. If she is done piss off and leave me alone.
The son thing is depressing me. His partner isn't coping with baby and wants him to cut back to 3 days a week working. They have loans up the wazoooo and can't afford them now plus she wants to move out. Get a grip love. You are living here basically scott free with minimal responsibilty.
See how it goes if you move out.
I know I can't live their life for them but OMG......

100% it is to relieve their guilt. I know my XH cares for me. He just can not undo what is done and can’t face me and the shame of his actions. In saying that is there some truth? Sure, until it really happens. They can say it, because they don’t believe we can. They want us right where they left us, but if they tell us to move on they don’t have to feel as guilty with their current actions and state of mind.

They are living in an altered state and even for them it is AT THE MOMENT relief of pain decisions. So, if they think they caused pain to us, then their relief is saying..be happy. Not they want us to find someone else, but they dont want to face the pain of their actions. My XH in other conversations has said the thought of me being with someone else is somewhere he can’t go in his thinking. He breaks down in a blubbering mess. He gets almost frantic in his response when the topic has come up. I said, so you will be ok if I start dating?  I DON’T WANT TO THINK ABOUT IT!!!!  So which is it?? LOL, plzzzzzzz

Just because she stepped out of the marriage years ago doesn't mean I have but I also haven't had the "get someone else" chat yet.
I'm pretty sure she is with AP but denies anything other than friends.
I call BS.
I'm not anywhere near ready to even think about anything in the future. I'm too damaged in myself.
I'm the one suffering pain while it appears that she is living life to the fullest which I know is an absolute lie.
I was brought up to be honest and I cannot stand anyone who lies.

That was a text that, in all reality, didn't warrant a response....

No one was dying, no one was bleeding, it didn't relate to any issues regarding finances or the kids....

In the Rule of 3, that would have been a "3 Months if ever" reply

File it in the WTF Folder

I need to get better at that and realise that nothing I do or say will get her to open up, accept the situation or move on finally.
Still stuck in "plan B" mode I guess with hope that is diminishing very fast.
I know that every interaction won't be the one that changes anything at all until she does what she has to and understands that moving out, having an affair and separating isn't the end of it.
Sometimes I need to take a 2 x 4 and hit myself.

I spend so much energy on hope and looking after my sons and their families that I have nothing left for myself.

I can't cut ties with her because I feel that it's not the person I knew (which is true) but I can't believe that that person isn't still in there somewhere just crying to be let out. BUT I do also know that it is doing me no good mentally or physically.

It annoys me that her actions are so distant from what a "normal" honorable person with morals would do.

It feels like my whole world is crashing down and I'm trying to be the one stable for my sons.
I sat them both down as I redid my will and removed her completely. My eldest son stood up and gave me a huge hug which brought me tears.

[UrsaMajor]

I can't cut ties with her because I feel that it's not the person I knew (which is true) but I can't believe that that person isn't still in there somewhere just crying to be let out. BUT I do also know that it is doing me no good mentally or physically.

Let me put it bluntly..... "That person" does not currently exist. "That person" is suppressed to the point of non-existence. The person that walks, talks (at least in tone) and looks like the person formerly known as "Spouse" has been replaced with a Body Snatcher Pod in the Garden Shed or, if you are a "Men In Black"  fan, a "Bug in an Edgar" suit who's one and only concern is getting her next fix of "happy" and who doesn't give a rat's patoot who she has to run over to get it.



or

[MadLuv]

Pacman- I feel every word your saying and you could literally be talking for me. We are living the same f’d up reality and we both have the same values and mindset. They are not living their best life. They barely exist. My XH did the same things. Lied she existed. Then when I found out said they were just friends. He even made up a story that she was an ex co- worker that he ran into at a fast food restaurant and she approached him to say hi. It’s insane.

I will tell you… he moved her in two weeks ago and he immediately started working 5 am to 8pm 7 days a week and now is traveling to get away from her already. They are not happy. It is so hard to see them this way. You want so bad for them to come to their senses, but it is going to be a long road. They have to travel it. That has never been clearer then seeing how he is handling this move in. Already escaping and avoiding her.

They created a lot of destruction and chaos and even if they see it they still feel compelled to ride it out. I would not put it past my XH to marry her shortly. He can not be alone and cant see a way back right now. Honestly. The road back as I see it looks pretty hard and  I am not crazy. So, I can only imagine how they see it all. I have told him recently their is absolutely no place in my life for him if he is with her and keeps on this path. For my own sanity I needed to move on and any friendship was not possible. If this is the way he wants to live and it is what he thinks will make him happy then he should live it, but I cant be a part of it.

We just have to do what all the great minds before us have said. Move on. Live our lives like they are not coming back. Focus on our selves. I an with you. There is no way I could get into any relationship with anyone now. We have been run over by a semi truck and there is just to much healing to do. For us and our families. One thing I do believe is We have to turn the focus on us. Get to a better place first. Our kids and families will all fall backnin line after.

Take care of you Pacman. That is what Intend to do. We are way to busy trying to put all the puzzle pieces together for everyone else and we are not healing because of it. It’s just so hard, isn’t it? Let me tell you. I lost a D14 to cancer and I think this has been harder to deal with. That says a lot. This is a situation that you just can not rationalize and for a person who lives with honesty and integrity and puts others first… you just cant make sense of it.

[Pacman]

Let me put it bluntly..... "That person" does not currently exist. "That person" is suppressed to the point of non-existence. The person that walks, talks (at least in tone) and looks like the person formerly known as "Spouse" has been replaced with a Body Snatcher Pod in the Garden Shed or, if you are a "Men In Black"  fan, a "Bug in an Edgar" suit who's one and only concern is getting her next fix of "happy" and who doesn't give a rat's patoot who she has to run over to get it.



or

This  is what I have to keep telling myself. And thank you for the 2 x 4. 

Pacman- I feel every word your saying and you could literally be talking for me. We are living the same f’d up reality and we both have the same values and mindset. They are not living their best life. They barely exist. My XH did the same things. Lied she existed. Then when I found out said they were just friends. He even made up a story that she was an ex co- worker that he ran into at a fast food restaurant and she approached him to say hi. It’s insane.

I will tell you… he moved her in two weeks ago and he immediately started working 5 am to 8pm 7 days a week and now is traveling to get away from her already. They are not happy. It is so hard to see them this way. You want so bad for them to come to their senses, but it is going to be a long road. They have to travel it. That has never been clearer then seeing how he is handling this move in. Already escaping and avoiding her.

They created a lot of destruction and chaos and even if they see it they still feel compelled to ride it out. I would not put it past my XH to marry her shortly. He can not be alone and cant see a way back right now. Honestly. The road back as I see it looks pretty hard and  I am not crazy. So, I can only imagine how they see it all. I have told him recently their is absolutely no place in my life for him if he is with her and keeps on this path. For my own sanity I needed to move on and any friendship was not possible. If this is the way he wants to live and it is what he thinks will make him happy then he should live it, but I cant be a part of it.

We just have to do what all the great minds before us have said. Move on. Live our lives like they are not coming back. Focus on our selves. I an with you. There is no way I could get into any relationship with anyone now. We have been run over by a semi truck and there is just to much healing to do. For us and our families. One thing I do believe is We have to turn the focus on us. Get to a better place first. Our kids and families will all fall back in line after.

Take care of you Pacman. That is what Intend to do. We are way to busy trying to put all the puzzle pieces together for everyone else and we are not healing because of it. It’s just so hard, isn’t it? Let me tell you. I lost a D14 to cancer and I think this has been harder to deal with. That says a lot. This is a situation that you just can not rationalize and for a person who lives with honesty and integrity and puts others first… you just cant make sense of it.

The lies and lack of morality is just so immense.
I know that I am getting great advice here......it's just the step change that I struggle with daily.
Some days I would not piss on her if she was on fire.
How they "think" they are living their best life is totally beyond me.
Todays society is so throw away and fake due to social media. People just give up when it gets tough.
The blindness to the nuclear bomb they dropped and then run away from is just unfathomable.
I agree friendship is totally off the table. No way I'm going to be a part of her life if she continues with her AP.
I am sorry about your daughter  .
Moving on is where I struggle. Still in a massive rut and full of self pity. She says that she wants the best for me.......BS. That's for her guilt not because she really wants it.

[Kind18]

You shouldn’t have replied to her text about passing in the car.

You shouldn’t be having text exchanges.

You shouldn’t be discussing the relationship.

If she contacts you, you respond only if she is asking a question or if it is related to children. Don’t respond to anything before coming here, and re-read this website’s resources.

The more you interact, the more you’ll tear yourself apart.

I get that you’re hurting Pac. We’ve all been there. Isn’t it about time you did what you need so she can’t keep hurting you? ie stop interacting and start walking the other way.

[Pacman]

You shouldn’t have replied to her text about passing in the car.

You shouldn’t be having text exchanges.

You shouldn’t be discussing the relationship.

If she contacts you, you respond only if she is asking a question or if it is related to children. Don’t respond to anything before coming here, and re-read this website’s resources.

The more you interact, the more you’ll tear yourself apart.

I get that you’re hurting Pac. We’ve all been there. Isn’t it about time you did what you need so she can’t keep hurting you? ie stop interacting and start walking the other way.

Fair enough about the text.
I've given up talking about the relationship (because there isn't one).
No more questions from me as I believe she is going to lie anyway.

Hurting me? She did that when she had the affair, got caught and left the family.
Again, if she is as done as she says.....then do it. Grab her gear, take settlement and leave me alone. I know she isn't acting rationally

I've read all the resources numerous times but it all points to letting go, giving up, accepting it and moving on.
I'm not anywhere near ready to do that even though I've tried.

[HeavenlyFocus]

I've read all the resources numerous times but it all points to letting go, giving up, accepting it and moving on.
I'm not anywhere near ready to do that even though I've tried.

Hi Pac,

It now has been over 1 year since BD for me and my W is still lying and off in her fantasy world.   I have worked to accept this and let go but I have not given up on my marriage although I am at the brink of D.   I am not moving on but moving forward with my life for me and my kids.   This MLC experience is awful but I still have joy in my life.   Keep posting  and in time it will get easier with each coming day.

HF

[JohnnyBravo]

I've read all the resources numerous times but it all points to letting go, giving up, accepting it and moving on.

Seconding what HF said. It's not necessarily giving up, and you don't have to accept the situation but more the fact that you have no control over it. It's moving towards thinking with your head rather than your heart. It's a long slog, and you need strength in order to not give up. The strength you build will help you whether or not the outcome is what you're hoping for.

And as always, easier said than done.

JB

[Pacman]

I'll get back to responding....
But she just sent me a message that her mum who is in early stages of dementia has a brain scan tomorrow 

"I hope all goes well"
Is that how I respond.

[Songanddance]

New thread please.

Thanks

[Ready2Transform]

I'll get back to responding....
But she just sent me a message that her mum who is in early stages of dementia has a brain scan tomorrow 

"I hope all goes well"
Is that how I respond.

That's a reasonable reply, Pacman.

[Pacman]

New thread please.

Thanks

New thread

https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11863.0