[MadLuv]

You got to know when it’s time to turn the page. New thread to turn the page

Link to End of last thread
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11827.150

[Standing Strong]

Attaching, as always 

-SS

[JohnnyBravo]

Me too.

[Curiosity]

Staying with you on the next stage of this journey!

[MadLuv]

I am trying to head in a new direction. I read through my own journalling and also my thought process and reactions to see how much cycling I was doing myself. I am very cognitive that I would feel very solid and then not. I obviously have been looking for closure from H. The disrespect should be my closure. I wanted to be heard and that would somehow magically validate me. I realize now if he didn’t have the mental capacity when he left to acknowledge or validate my feelings, how in the heck can he do it now?? He is in worse shape now mentally.

 Stupidly, I wanted him to understand how much he put me through and appreciate the love,loyalty and effort I put in to not just walk away.  Somehow, that would shine some bright light in his darkness that would lead him back. In fact, I got more than most. He said hurting me kills him, he loves me and will always have love for me, but the damage he has done can not allow him to come back. Who am I kidding. No answer he gave short of changing his actions and coming back was going to be the answer I needed. I just wanted him to wake up and change his mind.

In the end if he did not have the emotional capacity to keep me and he doesn’t have the emotional capacity to let me go, then I have to be the one to let go. That is my answer. He doesn’t know what he wants. I now have to be strong enough to know that is not good enough. I have to move on. Live my life. Quit investing my heart and soul in someone that has neither to give. Not just to me, but even to himself.

 In reevaluating ALL my actions in ALL honestly I am making a fool out of myself and making my normal sane self totally unhinged due to someone else's unhinged mind. We hang on for those we love to honor our love and vows, but I have done that. I gave 200% but MLC is not able to be dealt with by sound minds. MLC can make a sound mind insane. I really do want to save my own mind. I love myself. I am not letting his MLC diminish my own love for myself any longer.

Watch out world I am on my way back. Slowly but surely. Starting with NC …none ….zip………I CAN DO THIS AND I WILL. I have no idea what the future holds, but I cant worry about that. I will worry about today. What is in front of me now. I will appreciate the good in my life and that will be enough to get me through.

[marvin4242]

TornUp we all come to these important moments of realization and decision. Its a very much part of the journey to regaining footing and healing and moving forward. Only thing I will say is that you were never stupid or acted stupidly. Don't judge yourself. You had/have real needs, real reactions and emotions. And if wasn't for your husbands state everything you did or tried makes PERFECT sense, to a rational coherent person.

Its just really hard to accept that these people we knew are no longer that. They don't make sense, they are not coherent, they are not who they were.

So just keep doing what you are doing, one step, one day, one hour at a time. If you stumble (its not uncommon) just get right back up and keep going without feeling bad or judging yourself. Trust me, you have a LOT of company here.

[xyzcf]

I was sitting here trying to form the right words of what I wanted to say, and marvin came along and said it perfectly.

Only thing I will say is that you were never stupid or acted stupidly. Don't judge yourself. You had/have real needs, real reactions and emotions. And if wasn't for your husbands state everything you did or tried makes PERFECT sense, to a rational coherent person.

Do not take the blame for his actions. Nor think in anyway that you have not done all you could.

Whatever has caused him to leave his family behind, whatever the cause is.....the reality is that this is not the way that people leave a relationship. All your efforts or all your self examination of where you went wrong really do not matter.

This cannot be resolved by us.

[Curiosity]

Tornup, I read your posts and nod in agreement and recognition the whole time… the hard moments are painfully familiar, but the moments of realization and the personal victories are wonderfully familiar.

I was having a discussion with W today; I’ll update my thread with my own pondering. But one of the messages was the idea that we are all doing the best we can at any given moment, given the resources we have available to us. I heard it on Dr. Lee Baucom’s podcasts, but w was familiar with some version of that saying. So… even the MLCer is doing the best that he or she can (in some cases of overt monster I struggle to believe this, but with the wallower types I definitely believe it). And more importantly, you and I and all of us here are doing the best we can, moment to moment. Doesn’t mean there will be no weak moments, doesn’t mean you will constantly be in a state of grace and strength and enlightenment. But it does allow room to, when you become aware and shore up your emotional strength or get a new source of support, try to do better in the moments that follow. So yes, absolutely, move forward with your plan - it sounds absolutely right for you! Keep journaling, keep processing… I journaled a LOT, and I spewed a lot of anger which I went back and re-read often, especially when I was feeling sad. Eventually I reached a place where I was done with the anger. I deleted those journal entries and moved on. You are finding your path forward and that’s a wonderful thing.

[Zion]

Torn,

You are doing great and like the others have stated please give yourself grace.  Like most LBS you were expected to be treated with respect, since you had been loved and respected for so long.  The MLC, depression, and/or affair flipped the script, and you now find ourselves in an upside-down world that you are unfamiliar with.  It is a slow slow slow realization that the space is unsafe and your spouse will not restore that safety.

I like to view my X and OW as snakes... with privative brains, lacking true empathy, lacking a frontal lobe to reason, and desperately trying to protect themselves.  When I feel sad that a snake bit me, I remind myself that it wasn't personal, it is an unfeeling and desperate snake that instinctively bit me when I came too close and disturbed its peace.  My job now is to build a boundary around my space to keep the snakes away and to work extra hard on modeling empathy and boundaries for my children.

I surround myself with others that show love, empathy, logical thinking, good choices, patience...the list goes on and on.  There are many many wonderful humans and I have a lot of them in my life.  I truly truly have a wonderful life.

I listened to this Dr Ramini vlog about it not being important to understand a narcissist (not saying any of us are dealing with a narcissist, but still applies)
https://youtu.be/9xYOTAb0dHE

[MadLuv]

Only thing I will say is that you were never stupid or acted stupidly. Don't judge yourself. You had/have real needs, real reactions and emotions. And if wasn't for your husbands state everything you did or tried makes PERFECT sense, to a rational coherent person

Marvin-I feel more stupid for not cutting contact earlier and pushing for answers he couldn’t give. seeming desperate when in person when he couldn’t get away quick enough. Something about his lack of empathy and him driving 6 hours and then going to her apt. and not seeing his kids etc. It made me unhinged a little in those moments. Just wanting to shake the sense into him. I regret those moments, but I am only human like you said. I just think like most know it just validated is escape needs.

This cannot be resolved by us

I realize this now. Wish my heart would have accepted it sooner. I think my mind always did.

But one of the messages was the idea that we are all doing the best we can at any given moment, given the resources we have available to us. I heard it on Dr. Lee Baucom’s podcasts

Curiosity- this is something that came up in our conversation when we were working on my D30 wedding speech. I said to him I will never understand how you just left without wanting to go to one therapy session. Not ever telling me there was a problem with us or our marriage was in danger. Do you feel you did everything you could to save you family? He said …I did everything I was able to do. I said,I guess in your own mind??? Pretty heartbreaking

I like to view my X and OW as snakes... with privative brains, lacking true empathy, lacking a frontal lobe to reason, and desperately trying to protect themselves.  When I feel sad that a snake bit me, I remind myself that it wasn't personal, it is an unfeeling and desperate snake that instinctively bit me when I came too close and disturbed its peace.  My job now is to build a boundary around my space to keep the snakes away and to work extra hard on modeling empathy and boundaries for my children

zion- What a great way to analyze and look at it. I will remember this!!!

You know when my D14 was alive we went to walmart and she had a dog tag necklace made with her full name. When she died I found it in her jewelry box. I remember when she made it she chose the actual dog bone shape and not the more “normal “ choice of the standard dog tag if a human was going to wear it. She also got it multi colored. When I realized my XH was struggling I gave it to him and he wore it everyday.

A couple months ago when he said he still couldn’t sleep I sent him one D14 bears. I placed a card in it telling him it was hers with a favorite poem as well. I told him to try and sleep with it and I hope it brought him comfort. When he told me he was having the OW move in he brought the bear back. It was a gut punch. I think my stomach dropped and heart skipped a beat. I thought, wow…. We are here because he was struggling with her death and now he is giving a part of her back???

He said, I didn’t  think you would want it in the same bed as the OW. I said, you know you’re right. I said you know what else I don’t want next to the OW? D14 necklace. He said, I was hoping you wouldn’t say that. I said , I am. He said, I take it off at night. I said, can you say you will never hug her with it on?? That was a memory
 of her with me. I was willing to give it to you because you were struggling, but it is a part of me. You don’t need to wear a part of me on you while with OW. He was gutted to take that necklace off. I felt guilty  taking it back, but he made choices and I decided I didn’t need to give something that had so much meaning to me to someone that was not showing my feelings matter. I needed to put me first.

Taking back the necklace was the first time I stuck to what I needed. I put the necklace on the bear today and I am going to start sleeping with it. It is now a part of her, part of me and yes, a part of him. What’s more important is that it is giving me the strength when I see it to know I am taking back some control. I am honoring my loss and what I need. It has been about him for so many years. I lost the same daughter. I deserve to stop worrying about his pain and start dealing with my own. My loss of my D14  and the loss of my marriage. It really is ME time now!

[Nas]

I deserve to stop worrying about his pain and start dealing with my own.

You’re absolutely right about this. And it’s not because of a lack of compassion. It’s because it will not change anything and it’ll go on and on and on.
I don’t want to take a lot of time on your thread talking about my own story, but I do want to share this one:
I have not seen or spoken to my former H in years. I don’t know his phone number or where he lives. In those years, I have dealt with some really heavy things. All while he is off somewhere worrying only about himself.

We had a longstanding in-joke about an orange balloon. In the early days after BD, when he was clearly struggling and using my love for him to his benefit and to manipulate me and buy time and cover up misdeeds (that’s what it was, I won’t sugarcoat it),
In those early days, he would repeatedly tell me that he “had” to leave even though he was afraid it would “put him in the ground.” He made a lot of comments suggesting that he didn’t think he was going to survive leaving.
I bought a big bag of orange balloons at the time and gave them to him and hold him every time he felt that life was getting too heavy he should blow up one of the orange balloons, breathe in all of his anxieties and fears, tie the balloon up and let it go.

I never knew what happened to that bag of balloons after he disappeared. And then this past spring, years later, I heard from his mother that he had called her, she felt that he was either drunk or in some kind of distress and she was very worried about him. And during that phone call, he made a comment to her that she should, “tell Nas I’ve used up all the balloons.”
I’m sure he hoped that would elicit some kind of response even though I have no way of getting in touch with him. As if I would resort to sending messages back-and-forth through a go-between. (Interesting also that she is willing to pass on messages like that but she absolutely will not give me any information on him and wouldn’t give me a phone number or address for my lawyer when I had one, because “that’s between the two of you.”)
I did not react to the balloon comment when his mother told me. I did not send a response back and honestly, after spending a day or two thinking about it, I honestly haven’t really thought about it again until recounting the story right now.
The point is, even with no contact, an entire new life and nothing left between us, he still seemingly made a manipulative attempt to play on my sympathies or get something for himself. It’s all 100% about him snd his needs. I have moved around 7 times in 5 years, been dealing with debt and deaths and poverty and cancer without him, but when he needs an ego stroke or a hit of the old wifey compassion, he still expects it to be there. It’s truly mind blowing.
Live your life and leave him to his.

[MadLuv]

Wow Nas- Thanks for sharing. That truly is craziness and obvious self serving message. I love you gave nothing back. Neither of them deserved it. These are the stories that help you to see that it may never end and we really truly need to start making ourself number one.

[MadLuv]

A little therapy talk. Today I went over my last convo and the first crazy monster I have ever had with my XH in the 31 years I have known him. I also discussed taking back the D14 necklace from XH. I told my IC that I felt bad taking it back as he has worn it now for years and I know it meant a lot, but ultimately it was a necklace purchased with D14 and I together and I gave it to him as a gesture of love and support, however it is a memory of D14 and I.

 The necklace is not just hers but part of me as well and if he was going to move in with OW he did not need to have a part of me in his new relationship. Honestly the thought of him hugging someone with our D14 necklace on made me a little sick. IC said that the reasoning and explanation made total sense and I feel a little better about it. It’s funny that I should feel bad about anything after what XH put me through. Including his monstering from me asking him some questions. He can cheat, lie and manipulate, but I can’t ask questions??? IC said you have been more than generous and you have given so much and you haven’t gotten anything in return. Stepping away from the situation is the best decision you can make. Turn your focus on you.

 IC said “ you will have a lot of extra time now with not focusing on him. What are you going to do”??? I have a long list from friend time, home remodel to change the looks of all the rooms, prepare for the holidays, hosting small thanksgiving with my 2 kids, grandson, new SIL and his parents. 2 more NFL games to go to. One I am taking 4 co-workers and one I am going with s28 and 3 of his friends. That one I may or may not survive!!!  Hahaha So many things to keep me busy!!!

[MadLuv]

And……. He didn’t pay the weekly alimony. It is always amazing to me how I pay when he doesn’t get his way for what he did to me. I am not reaching out. I will wait and see if he caves and pays. If he does not I will have an outside source message him. I am not cracking!!!!!!

[MadLuv]

I had my thyroid cancer check this week. I do not have a thyroid anymore as I opted with the cancer to have it completely removed to help avoid returning cancer after treatment. I have continued to have reoccurring thyroid cancer despite that. Luckily nothing that has had to be treated in the past few years.

However, my thyroid numbers are way off all of a sudden and we don’t know why, but I am extremely hypothyroid. So, NOW I am very proud of myself for how things have went personally. No wonder why I am so tired, a little down and have felt I went backwards. Besides the obvious additional bomb drops of reality my XH has continued to drop I have a bad imbalance going on. So, now I am going to give myself a serious slap on the back for handling things as well as I did.

Hopefully, I can get my body back in balance and now with no contact I can regain my peace and start to move on with my life.
Day 8 no contact is feeling pretty good already!!!

Oh, he paid the alimony also, so the attempt to poke me didn’t work and he gave in and paid. Things are looking up and the tide is changing in my favor!!! 

[MadLuv]

In such a strange head space this week. XH birthday is Friday and he is moving the OW in this weekend as well and it is the year to the date of the last weekend he spent in our house never to return. I am sad this is where we are and I have also been nauseous for a week and can’t seem to shake it. I am also not able to concentrate on work or anything. I’m just in a real weird head space and for the first time the realization this is over. There is just something really gut wrenching about a really solid marriage at one point ending in such a bizarre way.

I believe it is happening, but then can’t believe it is happening. I just can not imagine what could make anyone flip the switch that makes them leave their family. I dont think I will ever understand how it is the answer. Going into the holidays this year for some reason is harder than last. Last year I was in shock and figured it would not last. He would come to his senses. This year I think I realize he is never possibly coming to his senses. The man I loved and the father of my children is dead. There is nothing left of the man I knew and I don’t see him trying to find himself. It’s such a waste of a life. Family is everything and to them it is nothing. What a bad place to be. Rambling…..just so many mixed emotions this week

[barbiedoll]

I hear you Tornup , I really do.  I believe I can often re-visit times of emotional shock , that it still does not compute. I can actually experience physical waives of adrenaline in my stomach when I think that any of this actually happened. All these years later , I am still digesingt that he truly and actually had an affair and left are home. I don't know why my body can still react to just the "thought" of it. 

Recently I said this to my husband . The way we started out as a couple ..it was just so exciting ,so pure, so in love . It felt like it would never change and for many many years , we were happy . I always knew he was so in love with me ,so attached physically and just committed in everyday. I thought I was soo lucky. And now? Its all gone and in many ways he still can regard me as unsafe..maybe even the "emotional enemy". How did that even happen?  Its impossible. There is an article I once read that talked about the fact that we married just exactly the "right person"...the person that would break open our childhood wounds and create an opportunity to heal and grow. That person knows you the best, challenges your "stuff" and it is often rocky and painful...to break your hidden shadows and force you to face yourself. This works visa versa. The writer believes we always marry the exact right person to make this happen. I wish I could find it again ( I will look ). It was very interesting indeed and I believed much of it.

I asked my H . How did this happen? How did we start one way and be in this mess now ...how did it all change so much? Why? .  He does not fully know...but says things like " I never had the "right tools" to do things right, I mismanaged my mental and emotional health, I have NEVER been happy ( meaning since birth), I made the biggest mistakes a man can make, etc etc. ". There really is no simple answer.  Its OK to be in a weird place emotionally....how could we not be from time to time?  We just keep going...we have always been 100% successful at that . We just keep going...

[Treasur]

It’s a rough old stage, we know.
Tbh a lot of what you describe sounds like a normal trauma response.
A certain amount of denial initially is pretty normal too, and more and more I see that as a kind of autonomic survival mechanism....we avoid some of the reality until we are strong enough to process it, I think.
Bc it is a pretty horrible and pretty inconceivable reality, isn’t it?

What helped/helps me when I get those physical/brain trauma lurches is to drop back to as small and in the here and now life rhythm as I can. Maybe just for a little while. Bc that is what your system is telling you it needs....breathe, sleep, fresh air, comforting food, slow, steady, safe things. No big dramas, no big important decisions or plans, nothing overly complex when your bandwidth is reduced. Often I find that if I just do that for a few hours or a few days, my system resets itself.

In case it helps, Tornup, to remember what you did well and wisely....bc I know you know, but sometimes we all need a little reminder of our good choices when we feel swamped by the reality of other people’s crappy ones 
Imho sorting out the legalities and finances early means that you are not having to deal with that now while you feel as you do. That isn’t the case for most LBS here who find themselves in similar situations while also having to try to think clearly through a legal process with long term effects for them and their kids. Filling out forms while vomiting or realising through the legal process that your spouse has done even worse things than you thought or trying to keep your job to keep a roof over your kid’s heads when you can barely get out of bed. That is not chump change, Tornup, that you did that. It took pragmatism and clear-eyed courage. And it means, if you choose, that you can put your own healing front and centre and minimise any new shocking hand grenades being thrown over your walls.

As Barbie says, just keep going.
It will not always feel like it does now. You might not believe that, most of us didn’t, i didn’t, but we evolve past a lot of the shock with time. Not all of it perhaps, but a lot of it....or it becomes less sharp or less intrusive.
We’re thinking of you. X

[JohnnyBravo]

Hi, Tornup

It really is a hard thing to understand, how someone we were so close with can just disappear or transform. I think you're probably spot-on in your estimate of why this year's holidays will be harder than last year. Others here have had similar experiences with being in shock or some kind of denial/unacceptance that doesn't sink in until later. I'm concerned I'll be that way at the one-year mark. It's tough.

JB

[marvin4242]

TornUp, sorry to hear where you are right now. Its not a fun place to be that's for sure.

I have a slightly different take on where you than most. I would say unfortunately right now you are EXACTLY where you need to be. Not WANT to be, but need to be. You are suffering the aftermath of a person who is in ways disordered. The behaviour and the results DO NOT make sense. You are absolutely right to feel disoriented, it is normal because when things don't make sense we are disoriented. You are absolutely right to feel shock, because when things suddenly no longer are what they used to we are in shock. Maybe some of this is delayed acceptance, because all this happened a little while ago. But parts of you, maybe hope, maybe wishful thinking, maybe denial, kept your emotions in stasis. And now as you are starting to accept and move forward you are starting to go through the stages.

I used to think of it a little bit as when our hand gets very cold and we lose feeling. When it starts to warm up we start to feel, but the initial feelings are not pleasant, they are delay registering of what happened.

So be kind to yourself, talk about it, go to therapy, allow things to process and integrate. That doesn't mean they will "go away" but over time you will feel better, and all this will be more a part of the past than what is in the present.

Hi, Tornup

It really is a hard thing to understand, how someone we were so close with can just disappear or transform. I think you're probably spot-on in your estimate of why this year's holidays will be harder than last year. Others here have had similar experiences with being in shock or some kind of denial/unacceptance that doesn't sink in until later. I'm concerned I'll be that way at the one-year mark. It's tough.

JB

JB it takes time, it really does. Healthy functioning psyches don't turn on a dime, they don't discard and just move on. Its like turning around a large boat, you start doing it and then you have to wait. Acceptance is a key part of starting the process, and its really tough. All we can do is to just keep working at it.

[Curiosity]

There’s a lot of wisdom in this discussion. I don’t claim to have anything new to add, but I will share my experience so far, which seems to go along with what others have said. I feel like the healing process happens in stages, and it’s not a smooth upward trend toward wholeness. Sometimes you will feel really detached, happy, content with your life… and then you’ll hit a patch of dwelling on what happened and why and trying to make sense of it all again. Sometimes that happens because of a trigger that you are aware of, sometimes it seems to just happen. And then you will perseverate on things that keep you stuck in the aftermath of his crisis… until you are able to right yourself, reach a new place of acceptance, and move forward again.

I like to think that most of the time, those patches of getting stuck are less severe and last a shorter amount of time as you get further past the original crisis. Probably not always true, but usually. For me at least, it’s that fixer and caretaker tendency that seems to drive it. I periodically fall into a place of wanting to make it all better… but the only person I can really do that for is myself. Everyone else involved in the crisis and its aftermath, especially W, has to make it all better for herself. In my case, so does A, so does C, so does MIL. For those who have young kids, the LBS may have a role in making things better (or at least stable) for the kids… but even then, they don’t have a role in the relationship between the child and the MLCer.

For LBS folks who truly, effectively get past their fixer tendencies and learn to focus on themselves; for those who truly learn to not personalize the actions of other people… maybe they are less prone to cycling back into that “stuck” place. Maybe for all of us, it just takes time. You have to process it and work through it yourself, but you aren’t alone in that you have a whole community to help support you while you do that work. And you’re doing great, really.

[KeepItTogether]

Hi Tornup. I get how you are feeling. B-Days always trigger me. My H's B-Day is 4 days after your Xhs.  And it sounds like your XH is smack in the middle of replay.  I remember feeling so devastated with H wanted nothing to do with me, which was/is often. But now I see what a blessing that alone time for me was, and continues to be.  I used to think that if he were coming around (which as a clinger was pretty regular), it was better than him being away. (Control/Fixer issues much?  LOL)  But when they are such a giant mess, coming around us is more damaging to us. It gives them that reassurance that we are still there. And off they run back into the wild, leaving us perplexed and sad. But we grow and become so much stronger from all that. Painful as it is,  it is so necessary for our growth and acceptance. And I think I may win the award for absolute slowest learner ever.

You are doing great. Being sad and feeling all the feels is really so  important for your process. The MLCers may never learn their lesson. And sadly there is nothing we can do for them if they are unwilling to look inward. But we do grow from it. Especially if we don't run from it. May not seem that way and many can be way too hard on ourselves for "not being over it" soon enough. We get there, eventually, each in our own perfect time.

Hugs friend.

[Thunder]

I so agree with Curiousity on this Tornup!

You are going to be just fine.  Him, I'm not so sure of.

I think the key is Accepting.  Accepting he has lost his marbles and you can do nothing to help, or change him.
He needs to walk this rocky road all by himself.

Best advice I ever got was...live 'as if" he is not coming back.  So many of them don't.
Don't waste years of your life hoping for something that may never happen.
Build a good life for yourself.

You have a great family and friends who loves you.  That is more than some LBS's have.

You will get through this next week Tornup, even though I do understand how very hard this must be....and I'm sorry for that.
You will not always feel like this.

{{Big Hug}}

[MadLuv]

Thank you all. Every post reply was so unbelievably helpful. I think everything happened in a whirlwind. Every time I get a grasp it seems a new bomb is dropped. It feels like sometimes you just cant catch your breath before the next bad crazy decision is made by XH. I have always been a brutally honest person, sometimes to my detriment. Living this past year of lies and craziness can make the most sane person feel like they are losing their mind.

I think the cruelty of me working from home due to covid and being isolated and left during isolation and then before holidays last year seemed beyond cruel. I hadn’t left the house in a year when he left. I put one tank of gas in my car in a year.  When XH keeps saying I don’t want to hurt you. I am making decisions to only hurt myself, but no matter what I do I hurt you and its killing me. Everything he does is for him and him alone? He has not once thought of anyone but him. So, that little declaration from him is just another slap in the face.

Finally, I am waking up to it all, but with that comes a huge reality check of pain. I will make it through the slump. Just hate that there are these moments of sliding backwards. I will say after a year of trying to help him and be his friend and showing love and empathy….. well, right now I want the karma bus to make a little visit to him. 

[MadLuv]

Need advice as I share a little more on my story or maybe more on my XH story on one of his EA. In March of 2018 I found an old phone which exposed 3 emotional affairs. 2 reciprocated and 1 not. The phone had a months worth of emails and chats with mostly the unreciprocated affair. Let me make this clear. She did not reciprocate. From what I could tell as the story and information unfolded it started in late 2015. They traveled together. He actually got her promoted.

When working together in person it was not discussed or acknowledged what was happening on text or email. 3 times however he did try to kiss her which she refused. She stated it was when she complimented him on work related ideas ( low self esteem and she stroked the wounded ego) He also drove by her house on the way home often and messaged her that he was. He referred to himself sometimes as her stalker. I also found an email that he sent her that was sexual in nature.

She had a daughter that was having issues and had 3 small children he offered to help in an way adopting or raising. She was married and again they were not in a relationship. She stated that at times she had come into his office to tell him to stop sending messages  and he would stop for a period and then Start back up.

She also stated he would line up knives behind him on a credenza as to let her know he was suicidal. I have remained to help him due to this and knowing he was not just in limerence or mlc alone, but very very ill. I know she did not turn him in because she had known him for decades and knew he was ill, but also was worried he would kill himself as well. I continue to feel my knowledge of this and not saying anything also could create a situation that he could continue to use these same horrible coping mechanisms in the future and I knew he had an issue.

Am I then responsible for not saying anything and putting others at risk? Is it each man for themselves including the OW who he is moving in that has no idea how sick he is? This continues to weigh very heavy on me in the ME TOO era. It also adds to my feeling of just pure insane feelings of how did he get so sick. I know he has to want to help himself, but he obviously isn’t and that puts others at risk. If something else happens am I legally responsible in any way? How do I carry this information and not worry that I am putting someone else at risk? 

[Ready2Transform]

You're not legally at risk of anything. Unless he is an actual threat to someone, there's nothing any authority could do. This woman he worked with could have likely gotten him fired, but if you tried to alert his work, you're just the "spurned ex-wife". Leave it alone. His actions are his own responsibility.

The language we use is important. Referring to him as being 'sick' is not helping you heal. What he did with you and this other woman is abusive. He was not going to kill himself, but he used the threat of violence (even if he focused upon himself, the visual of the knives was meant to induce fear) in order to control women in his life. This kept this other woman from turning him in, but also no doubt created a horribly frightening experience for her at home and at work. No one deserves that, but that's not your cross to bear.

I would focus on the acceptance part of this, that he uses limerence as a tool to control others who care about him, and that until he ever got any help for these problems, you have to watch how much energy you invest. Focus on you. Big hugs.

[MadLuv]

I am more torn on the ethical end. Sexual harassment is a threat to women. I have struggled with this for 3 years. He could be doing it still now? Me knowing and not saying anything and him not getting help. Is that leaving the possibility to have more women to have this happen? Due to his inability to have healthy coping mechanisms? Also, I worked for his boss for 25 years. I was a manager for him first. He knows I would not be the scorned wife. I went to him 3 years ago to tell him my XH was suffering from
Depression due to my daughters death. His boss and wife were friends of ours for years. We moved up the ladder together . I had hoped he would encourage him into therapy when he started falling apart at work.

[Ready2Transform]

You're not his mom. I say this lovingly. Let go. You're not responsible for nor going to be able to control whether or not he gets help. None of us are, for any of our spouses. Relieve yourself of that stress today and don't catastrophize about what he might do.

[Nas]

You're not his mom. I say this lovingly. Let go. You're not responsible for nor going to be able to control whether or not he gets help. None of us are, for any of our spouses. Relieve yourself of that stress today and don't catastrophize about what he might do.

Funny, I was just writing a post that also used the word catastrophize.

You have been aware of this information for over 3 1/2 years now. I would just offer that maybe the better use of your mental energy would be in doing an honest check in and trying to figure out what is different about today that is causing you to catastrophize and think that you need to do something about it.

[MadLuv]

Because I am in therapy. This is something I have had an issue with for 3 years. Now I am in therapy trying to work through the trauma of being married to someone who lied, cheated and manipulated me and others. Again, I have not held onto this for 3 years. Please look at it as it has been eating me away for 3 years. I got him into therapy 2 times due to this. Unfortunately all focus started on the death of our daughter, so he never was treated for his unethical coping mechanisms.

 I will continue to address in therapy. I have fought with myself on it for years. I am trying to relieve myself of the burden of knowing and not doing something. Ultimately he is responsible, but somehow I feel knowing and not saying anything it part of a problem that could continue. Trying to find a way to relieve myself of feeling this way. I obviously dont want to say anything. It would cause many issues for me. That is why nothing has been said. I did call the woman and have a conversation with her when I found out and told her that she should have went to HR. That has relieved me of some of this, but I dont know if there are others or will be.

He obviously is not thinking healthy and I struggle with being complicit in his behavior and someone else getting hurt. I feel I am working on a struggle ethically I have and not catastrophize anything. Saying it is catastophizing his behavior is saying he didnt do anything wrong and I am blowing it out of purportion. I have no hidden agenda. I have a heart that is struggling with this ethical issue

My focus is totally on ME. I am not trying to protect him, make excuses anymore for him. I’m trying to focus on why do I hurt, what do I need to do to heal and how to move on. This is the first time in 3 decades my focus is on what I need

[marvin4242]

TornUp: there is an ethical question, but there may also be tendrils of wanting to somehow still be in charge, still helping, still responsible, still connected? None of this may be true but you may want to take a breather and check this carefully. I know as I was letting go I was still holding on to things that were not necessarily positive about my W but it was a strange kind of "connection." I am not trying to be harsh but you already in a way made your ethical decision when you waited this long. If you are honest with yourself why change it now?

[MadLuv]

It is really bothering me honestly being told I held on to this. I took action. I contacted the woman and told her she should have turned him in. I tried to get XH to talk to therapist, I contacted his boss on his depression hoping he would encourage him to seek help. I tried to do what I could. He now is not in therapy and not making healthy decisions still. I thought maybe someone here may have had something similar.

 Again, it is coming up now because I am NOW in therapy. I have not been therapy until recently. I am NOW addressing things that I am and have struggle with. I am not doing anything but working through my struggle and what I can live with moving forward. Obviously I have not said anything, but that has bothered me. As long as I thought we were addressing the issues I thought maybe it was being addressed. Now I know it definitely is not.  I am struggling with it. I am sure I will not do anything. I was looking more for advise on how to not let it eat me up.

I will take a little break from this forum and just focus on therapy and me. Thank you all for your advise and help. It has been invaluable

[Nas]

One of the ways that this forum works best during the bad moments is by helping us to take a step back, take a deep breath and really figure out what is actually bothering us. Having people view your story from outside the lines is helpful because outsiders can offer different perspectives and sometimes see things more clearly from a distance. I have not seen anyone say you’ve been holding on to the information. I have seen people, myself included, point out it’s not new information to you and suggest that it would be helpful for you to ask yourself why today this is an urgent issue. And to see if perhaps that has anything to do with your ex-husband‘s impending (this upcoming weekend iirc) move in with the OW.

It was not clear that you were simply asking for advice on how to not have it eat you up. Honestly, that’s not something that we could really advise you on but it is something to work out in therapy, so it’s good that you’re doing that already. But your initial post and the ones after it referenced #MeToo issues and even noted that you were afraid of legal ramifications and you were asking what you should do.

I may be off base but I do think I will be so bold as to say that his upcoming move in with the OW has stirred some things in you. That’s not accusatory, I can absolutely sympathize because it likely feels like this is your last chance, perhaps your subconscious is looking for someway to throw a Hail Mary pass. You can’t stop his move or anything else he might do. It’s hard. But right now this is what’s happening. And it may not feel like it atm, but you’ll be okay.

If you need to cry or punch a stack of pillows, don’t hold back. But we are all trying to give you advice to take a step back and breathe and check in with yourself. And understand that the issues that you’ve been writing about today are not suddenly urgent, even if they suddenly feel urgent. But that what might help you more than focusing on them is to try to step back and ask yourself how you’re really feeling and why.

[marvin4242]

TornUp: sorry if my post frustrated you, that was not the intent. If you feel you need a break obviously that is what you should do. I also didn't really understand what you were trying to get feedback on. FWIW the only way to not let it eat you up is to be kind to yourself, realize you did the best you could. You obviously care and you obviously have struggled with it, but unless there is more you can do that will NOT have an adverse impact on you then give yourself a break. Allow yourself to let it go.

And if you do take a break I wish you the best. There is nothing better you can do than what you are doing. Focus on you.

[MadLuv]

Am I then responsible for not saying anything and putting others at risk? Is it each man for themselves including the OW who he is moving in that has no idea how sick he is? This continues to weigh very heavy on me in the ME TOO era. It also adds to my feeling of just pure insane feelings of how did he get so sick. I know he has to want to help himself, but he obviously isn’t and that puts others at risk. If something else happens am I legally responsible in any way? How do I carry this information and not worry that I am putting someone else at risk?

the main issue was ethically for me. I did in after thought say if more happened from me not saying anything could there me legal ramifications, but that wasn't the moral dilemma. Again, it is not a hail mary. It is coming up because I am in therapy and I am trying to work through my struggles. This is what we worked on today. I made a mistake posting this. I try to document my journey and this is part, but no matter what I say it is being turned into him. This is about me. My struggle with this information. I feel I can not explain it better than I have. Thank you however.  If your view was what I was doing it would definitely be a wake up call to step back and breathe. I am calm. Just continuing to heal myself in all areas as we all are. I have been dealing with his issues since 2009. I make no rash decisions. I divorced him in 30 days to solidify my finances. I protect me before and always. That is what I am trying to do. Maybe this was posted to soon after posting my struggle with his move and that is why it is being looped in. That is totally understandable.

[MadLuv]

Thank you all. I started in here in June and would never have survived without everyones support and advice. I am going to take a little break from anything and everything related or tied to my marriage and divorce for a bit. Going to focus on me and try to divert all my thoughts away from XH. I feel a sense of calm that a decision was made by him and somehow that is bringing a break for me. A firm IT’S OVER. I am going to see where these feelings take me. I will be back later to update my journey and check in on everyone else's I have been following.

You are all amazing!

[Thunder]

Thank you Tornup.  We are all amazing people, including you.
The things and the pain we have all gone through should have, at least, earned us a medal.

I would just say, for now, yes take a breather, if that is what you need.  We're not going anywhere.
We are not trained therapist Torn.  Just regular, ordinary people who care about each other.
We mean you no harm.
 
If talking to your professional therapist is best for you now, then by all means do that.

If you think, for one minute, we are going to be concerned with his ow getting hurt, you will not find too much sympathy here.  She's a grown adult making her own silly decisions.  That's on her.

Just take good care of yourself, please.

[xyzcf]

Hello Tornup,

Sometimes it really is good to step away for awhile.

I have always seen Hero's Spouse as a place of support and education about MLC but what I see happening to you are some arm chair therapists insisting that you see things their way.

And because you are uncomfortable with this approach, you feel the need to leave Hero's Spouse, when indeed, this should have been a place of acceptance and support for you on your journey.

In understanding the concept of MLC, the more I learned about the condition, the better able I was to take better care of my own mental health. But as I posted on barbie's thread, now there is this push for the LBSer to figure out themselves without accepting that many LBSers continue to have "monkey brain" for a very long time as they struggle with trying to find answers to how this could possibly have happened.

To spend time trying to understand MLC is frowned upon as the emphasis is now only supposed to be on you.

But you have children and a very long marriage and your situation is not the same as other's so why do they feel they can give you "advice"? They are not walking in your shoes.

You have a therapist who is working with you on your intimate issues..so why is so much advice being given to you...which makes you in turn feel even more upset in a place where you should feel safe to express yourself and be allowed to feel whatever you need to feel on that particular day.

We very much need to take what feels right for us and disregard things that do not sit well.

I do not think you have to worry about being legally responsible unless your husband has committed a crime that you have knowledge of. I am not quite sure what criminal behavior you are concerned about, but it does seem like the OW is voluntarily participating in this relationship and in the move forward to live together. You are also legally divorced so again, unless you have knowledge of something, regardless of his mental capabilities, he and he alone is responsible for his actions.

You have been in and are in difficult times, your daughter's wedding, anniversaries of your daughter who has passed, the holidays coming up.

One thing I know from my personal experience is that healing takes a long time.  It cannot and should not be rushed and is very different for each person, because our life's experiences are different.

I do look forward to hearing more about your journey and your interactions with other posters has been helpful to them as well.

Please take really good care of yourself. Your questions are valid ones..it is very hard to get our head around what has happened to our lives and our families. Keep doing the best you can.

[Treasur]

I salute you for committing yourself to therapy that focuses on your sense-making and healing, Tornup. It is hard work and often stirs up some sludge that might surprise us or questions without apparently easy to find answers. Or questions that lead to more questions lol. Come or go here as you see fit, when you see fit, based on what seems best for you at a given time.

It makes complete sense to me that therapy plus external events might have brought some stuff to the centre of your attention right now. And that can be a confusing place to be and a confusing place to describe in words on a page so that other people can completely get what you are trying to say. I can hear in your words a kind of frustration or a feeling that perhaps we are misunderstanding or judging you. I am sorry if that is unhelpful...it may be so, but it is not our intent. And of course, we can only see based on the words you post as we read them so we may miss some of the finer details that are so real to you currently.

Like others, I read your description of your xh’s past behaviour as profoundly manipulative, intended to create a fear response in others that might get a response from them that he wanted. To get others to feel responsible for things that were not their responsibility. A kind of implied threat. Much less about being suicidal, much more about indirect control. Only you know if this is a pattern you have seen in him. Or what it means to you or how you will see him if you feel that it is

You said

I struggle with being complicit in his behavior and someone else getting hurt.

And it seems to me, put simply, that you are not complicit in the sense of being responsible for his actions or interactions with anyone else. Not legally, not ethically, not emotionally. You were not in the room. You are not responsible for what he does when you are not in the room or how others see it or respond to it. You are certainly not responsible for any consequences that come from ow’s choice to move in with your xh or his to let her do so. Being blunt, that is not your business, it is theirs. In real adult life, we choose consequences along with our choices....if we learn that we don’t like the consequences, it is our responsibility to change our choices to create better consequences, is it not? Which requires the very kind of courage and grit that you are using right now bc that is what you are trying to do for yourself, isn’t it? Changing your own choices to create better consequences for you where you can.

You may, in the course of your own reflections in therapy, decide that you have unwittingly been complicit with some of his behaviour when you have been in the room metaphorically or in RL. You may decide that you have normalised or excused behaviour that you now think you should not have done, that you have perhaps seen him more as a victim than a perpetrator inaccurately sometimes, or that you have complied with parts of his own story that does not actually feel like your reality or taken responsibility for things that never belonged to you bc it suited his needs to encourage you to do so. Or indeed yours at the time. You may decide that you will respond differently in future if others say or do certain things when you are in the room in order to not feel as if you are complying with their narrative. None of us know where your reflections will take you. But we support your right to figure it out in a way that works for you.

I am pretty sure that unpicking some of this feels overwhelming at times, confusing and as if you are living with thin skin in a world of sharp edges. We may not understand all of how it is for you right now but we do understand how that feels. And that there is a world on the other side of it that will feel better than it does right now.

I would encourage you, and I am sure that your IC will be helping you to reframe your eye on this, to try to keep it simple.....if you are not in the room, if you did not create something, if you cannot exercise control over it directly through your own actions, if you were given no choice about it, if you did not know it was happening....you can lay it down bc it does not belong to you, my friend. In many ways, figuring out what we own and what we just don’t, is at the heart of detaching from someone else’s behaviour and emotions. It can be a bit scary after years of a long ‘we’ but there is a lightening to be found in laying some of that burden down, and I hope that this is your experience too.

We will all be cheering you on quietly and here when or if you want to share where you are.

[Trustandlove]

Tornup, I've just stopped by to very simply say that I think you are doing brilliantly.  You are only a year post BD, even though there have been all sorts of things leading up to it.  A year post BD I was still crying 24/7, indeed, that was the case for much longer.

You have sorted so much in such a short time; I applaud that.  I also fully understand the need to try to understand our MLCers; this forum was wonderful for me to help me do that, even though in the end I needed to take off the MLC lenses for a while.  I needed to understand for years and years.

Yes, right now the focus of the forum is very much on us rather than on them; that doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to understand them.  Heck, I still wonder how on earth this all could have happened, and I'm half a lifetime away from the bomb.  I still try to understand. 

This is so hard to make sense of; at some point I needed to accept that I was never going to make sense of it, and that I did need to save myself and my children to avoid us all being dragged down with him.  I, too, have struggled with feeling responsible for things that aren't at all on me.  Still have to remind myself about it sometimes, actually. 

Take care of yourself in the best way for you. 

[MadLuv]

, if you cannot exercise control over it directly through your own actions, if you were given no choice about it, if you did not know it was happening

I found out he was stalking, messaging, pushing affection on someone who did not want it. That becamr an unhealthy coping mechanisms for him. I could give a rats patootie if the OW is harmed or hurt in any way. She is obviously as broken and manipulative as he is.

My concern is he moves her in and that no longer works to distract his bee and hornet swarming head and he starts on someone new. I know this is a habit now. Starting relationships with broken souls that come to him for guidance at work. Will there be a new one that doesn’t know how to reject his abuse of his mental state? That is what keeps me feeling guilty. Knowing he should have been fired. That he could due to not addressing his issues keep this behavior going. I said nothing and let it happen. Like I said. I did tell the woman she should have turned him in, so I feel I did let go of my responsibilities with the past Unreciprocated EA.

[Treasur]

I honestly cannot see what else you could have done that would have been appropriate and respectful of normal social and employment boundaries. You listened to EA woman’s version of events, encouraged her to make a formal complaint, she chose not to do so. Or what you could do and why you might be worrying now about the same thing happening again to an unknown person in an unknown future....when you will STILL not be in the room and he is no longer your h but someone else’s boyfriend and someone else’s employee.

From the cheap uninformed seats, there is something rather ‘off’ about that argument/worry/guilt which makes no logical sense at all. Why on earth would you think this as if someone put you in charge of anything or everything your xh does? Surely the core of the MeToo movement is about people speaking up about their own direct experiences of being abused and feeling heard?
So the feeling is probably about something else which isn’t logical. Jmo.

What might be interesting though is this worry suggests that you are seeing your xh as some kind of danger to unspecified others. And that might cause you to consider the extent to which you see him now as a danger to your wellbeing also vs seeing him as someone needing support or sympathy.

[MadLuv]

If you are married to a rapist and you know they are raping people
and you don't turn them in you would carry a heavy burden turning your head to it, even if you left them because their “ behavior” is not acceptable. That is where my head is. Like I said I can not seem to explain it good enough, because no matter how I explain it, something is wrong with my thinking.

There is nothing wrong with MY thinking. His thinking and coping are the issue. I guess if there are other victims they are grown adults who have the ability to turn him in and I need to not worry about if they are not capable due to not being strong enough. I cant save the world. I get it!!! 

Also, believe me when I say this!!!!! My empathy for HIM has dropped to ZILCH… NADA!!! I think he is being an absolute buffoon !!! She can have him. He is not ( right now atleast) the respectful, loving and moral man I was married to. There is not one thing about him right now that I am attracted to or want back. This move has been the best thing EVER for me. It turned my empathy into disgust. I just don’t see him as a poor victim that needs saving anymore. He is a manipulative self serving man right now. Even to the detriment of his own children. Anger and disgust is helping to turn a lot of pages for me.

So, as far as the “responsibility “ is concerned. I am letting that go. I think what I knew I resolved. I am no longer married to him. His work now knows he has become involved with and employee and was informed there were others. They could have looked into. IMHO his work now is responsible for anything that happens going forward. I think that helps me to let go of my responsibilities. I have no skin in the game anymore. I absolutely did everything I could.

Thank you all again…

[Treasur]

Okay, well done, good job, you are getting there my friend. 

I am blunt perhaps bc I have a great deal of respect for the weird glitches our brains can create post-trauma. Lots of stuff about fear, safety and control which feels true at the time but may not actually be as true as it feels. And how trying to stick as close as we can to the observable factual truth can be a big help in unglitching ourselves. But hard and exhausting to do, particularly solo. I needed a bit of help along the way with it so I sometimes feel a desire to pay it forward when I see what look like trauma thought glitches in others lol. If it helps, great. If it doesn’t, it’s fine to ignore my challenges. Ha ha, I can’t judge you bc I was right up to my neck in it too for ages....and I rather like me, so why would I think any worse of you for any glitches?

The anger/disgust is part of the process too and it can be useful for momentum even if it is rarely a good way to live longer term. Feelings and thoughts will shuffle around, Tornup, for a while yet. Like a kids kaleidoscope. Until you reach a more settled POV on it all and you’ll know that for what it is when you do. Until then, keep going 

[MadLuv]

Treasur- I never sit in anger. It is not even where I sit in all moments now. More disgust and disappointment that he did not decide to do the work needed to help himself. What I do feel now is I am to good for him. He has nothing for me, but the ability to take me backwards in life. I have survived SO much in my life. None self inflicted. He is self inflicting his own pain and inflicting pain on those he once loved. MIND BLOWING.

 I choose to turn my head and let him self destruct. Like you brought up earlier…. I protected myself financially and I will continue to live the life I built.  Working on redecorating rooms in my house now and preparing for some more games with friends and the holidays. Lot of distractions to create the distance needed as he starts his new life.

If his world falls apart now it is not anything to do with me. I gave more than I should and I am at peace with that and due to D30 wedding everyone including his family saw the love and grace I showed him and them. It is his mothers bday today. I sent her lobster grilled cheese. I guarantee he will not even wish her a happy birthday . I told him that his family was my family for 30 years. I am not cutting them out of my life because he decided to leave. I am little by little making those decisions to take back the control I felt he took. What is best for Tornup. That is where my head is. I have out others ahead of me long enough.  Onward and upward!!

[MadLuv]

I wanted to add a little insight from myself before taking some time to myself for me to create a little distance from thoughts of my XH. I always told my XH that one thing I think would never change is that no matter what he would always be “HOME” to me. I feel that changing for me now and allowing me to move to a detach status as I dont feel any sense of HOME with him. Home is safe and protecting. A place of calm and love. I have poured all that into him even during all these darkest hours. With no return.

Once I faced that the more I poured into XH he took the sense of calm, love, safety, protection away from me. He is no longer my sense of HOME. I don't feel any of those feelings anymore. I’m not really sad about this now. I hung on. I did all I could. I fought the good fight. Who I feel sorry for is him. Not in an empathetic way however. I feel bad he has lost so much. The love of a devoted wife and the respect of his children. No one has lost more than him. He has said he doesn't feel he belongs anywhere and no place feels like home. That is beyond sad for him. He will not find this with the OW. What I do know is I still have a feeling of calm, love, safety and protection when I drive up to my HOME. His inability to love the life he built falls solely on him. I don’t see him finding “HOME”   What I do know is I will be just fine. It’s all about can you find your sense of HOME. Because everyone needs a place to call home.

[Curiosity]

Brilliantly said, Tornup. It feels very sad at the time, this sense that they were our home, our safe place, and now they are no longer that. Ultimately, it’s healthier for us to not have to rely on anyone else to be our safe place… or even really to be a significant part of the foundation our safe place is built upon. You can have a lovely, healthy, loving, intimate relationship with someone… but to make them the source of your own calm and safety can easily roll down the hill into codependency.

You can find home for yourself - it seems like you’re already on the way to realizing that a lot of it was already present in yourself and in your life. You can hope that he finds it for himself, but you can’t find it for him or even direct him as to how to find it. And maybe he will, maybe he won’t. As long as the love is there, you will likely want that for him.

I feel like I relate so much to the emotions and processing you have expressed here. I am grateful that you are sharing your story here - as many differences as there are in our spouses and stories, the underlying emotions are often similar in many ways.

[MadLuv]

Back sooner than I thought, but more of a it’s one of those days I need to journal and capture my feelings. It my XH birthday today. I have cut all contact now for 2 weeks. I in 32 years have never not wished him a happy birthday, but he is literally packing up his gf and moving her to his/our condo as we speak. The condo I found. I picked out. I started repairs and remodeling. Put my blood sweat and tears in. It’s a moment. A day and seems the end.

I have had no desire to message him, but it is a sad day when you truly grasp that it is the end. That it cant be repaired. That you did more than they were capable of. I think it will always be a mind F that this is what he chose. I cant imagine this will ultimately bring him happiness, but I am pretty sure it is the end of the road for me. I dont think him moving her in to “our” place can be ever forgiven for me. So when they say it comes down to the LBS decision, I think that is even if the MLC’r hasnt wanted or tried to come back. We have already decided they pushed it to far.

Happy Birthday XH… blow those candles out and make a wish… I hope they dont include me

[JohnnyBravo]

Hugs, Tornup. That's a tough one.

[xyzcf]

I can still remember the date of my first boyfriend's birthday!

There may come a time Tornup, when these memories will bring a smile to your face but not today. Not when you have this heavy weight of his moving in with his OW, not when this wound is still so fresh.

I once thought that I would never stop crying, so many tears but I now realized that those tears were necessary for my own healing.

I also had two really good friends who were able to put up with me over and over again when things struck me that I couldn't shake off. For me, talking and crying it through helped.

I am glad that you are expressing your thoughts here. These are what you feel at this moment.

It will not always be this way.

As you know, nothing about this is easy. Take good care of yourself.

[Standing Strong]

I'm so sorry Torn,

Today will pass, and tomorrow will also. Big hugs from me to you.

-SS

[HeavenlyFocus]

Torn,

It's unfortunate that your H is losing out, and I know that you will find peace in time.   I was the caregiver for my W and it's been hard for to let her go and stop caring.   I understand how you feel.

HF

[barbiedoll]

Once I faced that the more I poured into XH he took the sense of calm, love, safety, protection away from me.

.

I feel this loss everyday. Sometimes I with for my "old life " back.  The life before his affair and leaving .  Not that it was the perfect marriage , but it was not missing calm, safety, trust and protection.  I had those vital feelings that are so very important and are almost impossible to get back. He will never have my heart again.

[MadLuv]

My XH moved his OW into what was  our condo tonight. It really is surreal, but this is where we are. I have been a constant in his life for 32 years and he has had my support and ear  for the past year even after leaving. He does not anymore. He has lost more than I. I have not been getting anything from him. How will he deal without me? How will this all play out?? Only time will tell in this crazy MLC head of his. Not sure how this mentally unhinged man will deal with living full time with someone he has only been seeing one day every other weekend for 8 months. This seems to be a choice a lot of then make. As he told me “ I don't know where I am headed, but I have to see what this is and it has to play out’  I think his bad choices will continue.

My life is moving forward. Went out and listened to bands this weekend. Next weekend out of town with coworkers for a NFL game. Keeping busy and carrying on!!

[HeavenlyFocus]

Hi Torn,

Feel the exact same way about my W.  How will she deal without me?   All we can do is let go and glad you are moving forward.

Exciting that you have an NFL trip next weekend which should be a lot of fun.  I'm getting ready to cheer on my team shorty today.   Hoping you can find peace in time.

HF

[Thunder]

Hi Torn,

I'm sorry he is going through with this move, I don't see it as a positive for him but he needs to find that out for himself.

If I may, who is giving you this information?  It certainly is nothing that will help you heal and detach.
Sometimes people think they are helping by keeping you informed about what they are doing, but that is very misguided.
All it does is keep the drama going.  You do not need drama in your life. (people do love drama)

I remember telling my kids I do not want to know what he is doing, I'm better off not knowing.
If you run into him and he is with a woman, I don't care to hear about it.
We are divorced and it no longer should concern me.  So if you care, please keep it to yourself.

Just a suggestion, Torn.

[MadLuv]

Thank you HF…He moved OW 1 year to the last day he lived with me. It seems sometimes their timing can also be cruel. We do our best to carry on.

Thunder- The OW worked for my son. The transfer went through and her last day was this week. It came up that my son was frustrated because he lost 3 clericals in peak season at work. I have asked my children not to mention XH or OW. I dont think it was intentional. I expect some slips. He got into an argument with his father who is over him and asking about being behind. S told him it was his fault. I think I try to remember they are struggling with their F and his actions as well.

 I cant imagine having your F being absent but then talking to you work wise and calling you put by email, phone or text. No personal. I also worked for the company for decades and so my kids often come to me as I know the ins and outs and can advise. It is a bit tangled. It would make it easier if everyone didnt work for the same company.

[barbiedoll]

How will he deal without me? How will this all play out??

.

I also wondered how my H would deal with life with me not in it. At the time, we had been together for nearly 30 years. I distinctly remember thinking that it was the 1st time in 30 years I had not heard his voice. That I actually had no idea where he was.  It was as if he had died and there just was no funeral. I was just in shock emotionally and could not get my bearings for a very long time.

I could not imagine he could not be feeling all the same things ...even if it was his choice to "die". However, he told me that he never thought about me. That his mind was split in some mysterious unexplainable way and he rarely thought of me. When he was with OW , I never entered his mind. He did not feel guilty ...he could not feel anything at all. He felt nothing. It is beyond anything I can comprehend .  However, despite saying he never thought about me , he still attempted to contact me, he appeared uninvited at our home etc.  So he must have thought about me in order to do those things . And he returned home ...so if he never thought about me , why return. Makes no sense but very little does .

I would refuse any contact with him at this point . He has moved OW in ?  Let him live that out 100 % and feel the full consequences of his choice with no interruption of that process by having you to talk to, contact , visit etc.  A complete sever ...in my opinion.  I am sorry that he continues to be so lost and destructive. Keep your head up and focus only on yourself.

[MadLuv]

Thank you Barbie- that is exactly what I am doing and I must say it is easier than I thought it would be. I think because I never contacted him in this past year ever when he was with her. I guess I had to much pride in myself to contact him and her know she had something I wanted? What is crazy is I worked for this company for 25 years. Without completely exposing ourselves…I left one aspect of the company that we worked in together when I got pregnant and went into a different aspect and then brought him over.

He is in the position I brought him into. Now I am not there. I gave it up for him and now he is bringing her along and everyone we have known for 30 plus years know not only he left me after all I sacrificed for him, but now they know who with. Where we worked together all these decades. Now he is basically repeating our life, but with her. It is almost like he is repeating our life??? It is embarrassing and deflating that he is humiliating our family. I cant face people I worked with for decades. It feels that way.

He now will be a source of gossip that his own children working for the company will need to hear whispers of. What is making it easier is because of this it is making it seem more final. How could I ever get past this? How did his boss allow this? He could have moved her up there and not had her transfer in the company. She could have worked somewhere else? It’s such a slap in the face. Maybe his boss thought if he was with her it would stop him starting other relationships in the company. Im still shocked he wasn’t fired. How long before he gets bored from this escape and starts more EA because he still isnt facing reality? Who knows…. Maybe never. Maybe she is the answer. Part of me hopes so. For my kids. I would like him to pull it together.

I do think that this will be a huge reality check. Not sure how long it will be, because he is so deep in escape and avoid. I do know that in 2018 he said when he was in the EA’s he said he never thought about me at all when he was flirting and carrying on. With this PA he said he does. That seems odd. He also seems so much more unhinged and worse.

I will also agree he truly feels dead to me. I have not had any contact for 3 weeks and that is the longest I have gone. I have no desire to contact him and that has never happened. I will not have any knowledge of what he is doing or how it is going. Our connection for the first time in 32 years is truly NOTHING. Knowing him he will marry her and will stay with her no matter what, because he chose this route. Had her leave her grown girls and move states into his place. He cant just walk out.

I think he truly believes he loves her. Even though he never will say that. His actions prove otherwise. I wish when I moved him out in 2018 I would not have let him back. Maybe we would be in a different place. If I only found this site earlier to understand what I was dealing with. Also, what you said about the “ not hearing your voice “ I left him a message on NFL tickets when he didn’t answer the phone a few weeks ago. Trying to tie up business with him . I never leave him a voice mail, but was almost relieved when he didnt answer so I didnt have to have a conversation. My therapist said I think he did that so he had your voice recording to listen to since you cut off communication. I think she is right.

I am going to carry on and live my life for me. That is all I can do and I will let him live with his choices. We had a very close partnership for decades before the loss of our daughter. I just think he feels he cant stay in this family without the constant reminder she is gone. What a sad place to be. I still believe without me keeping him in the loop of family it will now be all on him to reconnect with his kids on a personal level. I also feel he will really be lost without the foot in my door. I don't think he can live without me in his life. I think he is in for a rough reality check and he will be living with these consequences for years to come.

I try to remember now that the man he is now is not anyone I could live with and be happy. That is bringing me a lot of calm for now. It feels like today is a start of a whole new beginning for me. A new life. Decisions were made and our life is truly over and my life alone is now just beginning. I feel hopeful for a future. I don’t feel as in limbo anymore!!

[Shockandawe]

Hi Tornup,
So sorry you’re going through this but you’re in a great place full of people who get it.
MLCers feel compelled to do what they do even though it’s wrong. They are numb of positive feelings and only feel negatively. We seem to be the target for their anger and vitriol because of the negativity. The ow makes him feel something and in his crazy state he mistakes it for love which it absolutely isn’t. No sane person would actively do what these MLCers do.
You know the real person and you know he is now the polar opposite of that person.
Try to not take any of his craziness personally, let him go live this fantasy life where everything is perfect and wonderful. Reality has teeth and it bites but he has yet to find that out.
You, on the other hand, are not crazy and you have clarity of mind not some fog addled teenage brain.
Trust in the process for it is a process and know your truth and your worth.
Let him be and live for yourself, gain strength and detach from his insanity.
God bless you

[MadLuv]

Thank you Shockandawe,

Detach detach detach!! For the first time that is truly and fully what I am doing. It’s strangely calming and a little fear of the unknown ahead. When you truly stop trying to control the situation that is clearly uncontrollable it oddly brings a little hope. Hope for healing no matter the outcome. Sure have to go through a lot of mind games even within ourselves to het to detachment, specially when your a fixer.

[MadLuv]

Reaching a new milestone in communication this week. 3 weeks of no communication has brought so much clarity and thought processing. I do find the less I know the more I am not thinking about it all, but then it makes me realize……oh, so this is how he felt. He has been distancing himself probably for years. So, now that he has decided to move the OW in and is starting this new life with all it’s new distractions I am probably a distant memory.

That revelation in itself is shocking to the soul. I can see where with distance you just get into a new routine in life. That person that was fore front for decades does not factor into everyday life. I can definitely now see that as more days go by the less he will be missed in them. A new routine will be replaced where he doesn’t factor. Not just in person , but in mind as well.  It really is a slow death. They just no longer cease to exist and they will cross your mind as an old life that you treasure the memories, but that is all they are…. A memory.

I also realize as I am still in what was our home and all it’s memories that it is not as painful, but comforting. I can see all we built and all we have connections to that he will never have with her. The OW really is nothing. I gave her to much credit and power.  They have no past  and their future will be forever clouded in the past that he is escaping. We LBS’s work through it all, while they work around it all. We really do become stronger.

I don’t think anyone that tries to wipe out their past gets stronger. They are running and will continue to run. In the end you can’t escape your life, but even bigger you can’t escape your head. Letting that all sink in now. It really is not about me. It is all about him. It will continue to be all about him. That isn’t love. That isn’t life building. That has no future. Wish it didn’t take so long to knock that sense into my head. It really is time. A lot of self reflection and time is what gets us through this mess. You then can see no matter what you will be OK!! You will be better than ok. You were living a nightmare that was serving you no purpose and unless they choose to do their inner work there is no life worth sharing with them. Ahhhhhh, I get it now….. geeeezzzzzzz

[MadLuv]

Welpppp, the news apparently of the OW and her transfer, them moving in and dating is becoming a source of gossip at work as I suspected it would. Our volunteer work page for our deceased D14 is getting a lot of visits and old pictures of our family volunteering is getting “care emojiis” from my former coworkers and my XH employees. Including one of the OW friends.

I had someone reach out that XH looks distressed, ill, aged 20 years and is now coming in to work at 5am since she moved in. So, he is in escape and avoid of the new reality he created. I am telling anyone who brings him up that I am not interested in what they are doing. That it is his choice and he can live it. Hopefully things will die down again soon once the shock for everyone who knew our family and us as a couple for 30 years also accepts the facts that are.

There is a little embarrassment in it all coming out, but I do now realize it is his to feel and not me. From the reactions I am getting people are shocked. That actually gives me a little power and reinforcement if you will that it is crazy!! And the crazy is him. I think this all coming out before the holidays may be a good thing. Everyone will be busy with their own lives and families and will stop focusing on this. It was all to be expected. Who doesn’t like a little soap opera when its not theirs….

I am headed into so many busy days. I think once xmas is over I can really focus on the new year ahead. I am physically exhausted and it is starting to show. I have not felt well. I just need some down time and rest, so really looking forward to that. I have talked to my kids about planning a yearly vaca and so hope we can do that, however my D30 is trying to get pregnant, so if that comes to fruition that will change things. I look forward to a new baby in the family and some new hope and love that comes with that.

I work from home, so is she does have a baby I am sure she will want me to take care of the baby as she heads back to work as I did with my grandson. That will then change my life once again in a big way. Feel we are all settling in to what is and focusing on the days ahead. There is a surprising sense of it “will be all ok” well for myself and my kids at least . There F is clearly just starting a huge decent into more chaos. I am just actually grateful that it is in another state and removed from my vision.

Still in weekly therapy, but will probably back off after next week to every other week. Still working on my growth, but with less new chaos coming in there is less to get through. Now it is just resolving the damage done and how to make sure it doesn’t affect my life going forward. My therapist continues to say that I am the healthiest person in the most unhealthy situation she knows. That is reassuring as I know she talks to many. We truly are stronger than we think we are.

[Curiosity]

You sound really good, Tornup. The turmoil and uncertainty is the hard part; the anticipation of what will happen when the other shoe drops. Once it actually does - once the thing you had feared actually comes to pass - there is often almost a sense of relief, as you realize that (like you said) we are stronger than we realize.

[KeepItTogether]

I am physically exhausted and it is starting to show. I have not felt well. I just need some down time and rest, so really looking forward to that. I have talked to my kids about planning a yearly vaca and so hope we can do that, however my D30 is trying to get pregnant, so if that comes to fruition that will change things. I look forward to a new baby in the family and some new hope and love that comes with that.

I was surprised at the toll the emotional pain and stress took on my physical wellness.  I like the idea of you resting. It is difficult new reality to digest, and takes so long.  I also love the idea of family vaca's. I was thinking about this myself with S15. That we would start travelling to places other than Disneyland for once. LOL. Great plan. And a new baby is always a great idea. So much to look forward too.

I was embarrassed for so long. I felt ashamed. My H and OW went out around town like it was nothing. Like they were a married couple....even though we are still very married.  So I stayed home for many years, opting instead to travel out of town if I wanted to escape. So weird how we are the ones who feel shamed. I think that is part of the abandonment thing. Thinking we are somehow "lesser" because they left us.  But the reality is, THEY are the lesser. They ran away from their responsibilities and life. And left us to pick up the pieces. No, that shame belongs to them entirely.

Hugs to you and your deceased D14. I can't fathom the pain you must feel every day no matter how many years have passed. You are pretty amazing. And I am sure she is watching over you and is so proud of how you have navigated all of this.

[MadLuv]

Omg…. He bought 3 gym memberships. I think OW moved one her daughters in with them and he is paying for her college  and books. I just hope my children can survive his cray MLCr decisions.  I wish I wasn't being fed this info but it will take many convos with people telling them DOnT TELL ME !!! Good lord they really go into a total escape and avoid by building a new life.

It’s total insanity. I am able to see what it is now, but good lord. I am hoping I am at the end of people wanting to tell me what is going on. Let him build his fake like. You truly can not make this all up.😂🤣😂🥲🤣🥲.

Activities dont create true intmacy. It just doesnt. And…. Once again he hasn’t paid my alimony they was to be paid on Wednesday. I am not saying a word. He will eventually pay when he realizes it wont make me contact him. Why can’t they just let go? They get what they want and still need to try to keep you attached. Not going to happen

[Thunder]

Oh my gosh Tornup, I am just shocked.

How in the world do these people have this kind of information, like about the gym memberships??  How do they know her daughter has moved in and he is paying for her college and her books?

It sounds like someone very close to him who can access his financial accounts and are abusing their privileged access.  They could be in very serious legal trouble for divulging this private information.

Yes I would tell them you do not want to be part of this.  It is doing you no good knowing this stuff.  What do they think you can do about it?  It only hurts you. 
That is no friend of yours, Tornup!  Trust me.

[MadLuv]

It’s  the curse of all working for the same company and information be fed to get back to me. I just can only tell them I dont care. I don’t think it has any legalities. No one having close inside information?? Just a OW that wants me to know their bliss…or so they think. 

[Treasur]

It’s  the curse of all working for the same company and information be fed to get back to me.

Well, yes. And no.
Most LBS find that they need new boundaries with all kinds of other folks after this kind of experience....coworkers, mutual friends, acquaintances, family. Until that happens, it can be a bit like people slowing down to gasp at a car wreck I think. And tbh, if we are absolutely honest with ourselves as LBS, there is a time when we both hate this kind of info and look to it to confirm our existing assumptions or hopes. Important imho to be very honest with ourselves about where we are at.....

Just bc someone wants to talk to me about x or y does not mean that I am obliged to listen. I can say no politely. If they ignore that, I can be more blunt about how I will respond if they continue. Or I can detach from the conversation or relationship. I think tbh it depends if we really believe that these conversations hurt us or impede our recovery....what matters most to us at the time......if we do, we choose accordingly. We reclaim our power to not have things in our life which don’t serve us rather than giving the power to other folks to decide what they do or don’t want to talk to us about for their own reasons.

If you (and your son) don’t want to look for new jobs, and you don’t want to be a passive audience for your xh’s life for months/years, i’d suggest that rock solid boundaries now will work better than later. And after all, your xh is your xh....whether he buys multiple gym memberships, sponsors a panda or changes his name to Jemima at work is not your business. Not your life, not your money, not your choices, not your consequences. It means nothing other than this is the life path he has chosen for himself now that he has removed himself from your life. Those choices may matter for his future life but they are practically speaking irrelevant for yours, Tornup. You’ll get there.....I think you are just not as there yet as you want to be bc attachment is a powerful impulse that takes longer than we think to unravel.

[MadLuv]

..I think you are just not as there yet as you want to be bc attachment is a powerful impulse that takes longer than we think to unravel

This is true. I think so many people in shock of his changes besides me and you are right it is his life to live. Shocking? He hasn’t been a member of a gym since his youth, but then everything that is happening is out of his norm. Also, not all information may be accurate. That is why I stated “I think” 

I actually highly doubt the daughter moved in. Maybe he bought a guest membership for when one of her daughters visited. Maybe didn’t buy 3 at all. I have no doubt he would pay for her daughters college books. Sounds on point for him to be the white knight.  Another good note is you can feel in a good place and the gossip mungers running at you can re-hype you up. When info comes at you or relayed to you in an hyped way you feel almost justified to feel hyper as well. Easy to fall back into the HOW DARE HE mode.

I would be lying if I didn’t say I find it all interesting, but I also know I am far better not knowing. It just makes you question things all over. Why didn’t he join a gym with me??? Why didn’t he take me on vacation??? Why? Why? Why?  That’s what get’s you going. Not what he is doing, but why you weren’t good enough to do it with. Yet, I have read enough on this site to know this is pretty script. Younger woman. New life. Get fit. Recapture youth. Honestly, pretty right on target he is for reinventing his life MLC’r style. Que sera sera

[Treasur]

Another good note is you can feel in a good place and the gossip mungers running at you can re-hype you up. I would be lying if I didn’t say I find it all interesting, but I also know I am far better not knowing. It just makes you question things all over.

Exactly.
And part of the recovery process for LBS imho is about working out what are useful questions and what are not.

That’s what get’s you going. Not what he is doing, but why you weren’t good enough to do it with.

And seeing ways in which our own lens might be a bit skewed...?
The above seems to me from the cheap seats to be an odd conclusion for example. Why would his wish to go to a gym, say, have anything at all to do with YOUR value? Does how you live say something about someone else’s value, Tornup, is that their ‘job’ somehow? Seems like apples and pears to me  but it is a flag about the kind of codependent habits where we are fuzzy about where we end and someone else begins perhaps? One of the pretty common markers of an MLC spouse, I think, is that they are often highly emotionally codependent.....hence when they flip, it flips from ‘you are my reason for happiness’ to ‘you are to blame for my unhappiness’. And neither is really true, is it? Most LBS, even if we weren’t particularly emotionally codependent before (and some of us maybe were), struggle with our own slightly twisted version of this as a reaction to loss, rejection, abandonment and trauma, I suspect. The hard work of unravelling our attachments is also the process of owning our side of the street and not one paving stone more than that.......takes a little while, that’s all.

A more useful question might be why you have some instinct to see it that way and whether there were things that you would have liked to do in your life that you didn’t do when you were married to him.....and why you didn’t.....and whether any of those things are part of your next chapter. Jmo. But all part of the LBS reshuffle imho.

[MadLuv]

The above seems to me from the cheap seats to be an odd conclusion for example. Why would his wish to go to a gym, say, have anything at all to do with YOUR value?

thank you Treasur-and  I can answer this one clearly for myself. I told him I wanted us to join a gym. He didn’t have time. I wanted to go on vacation. He didn’t have time. Etc….  So, that makes me feel it was me. On then other hand. He will also go with the flow. He moved her out of state . No family or friends. He doesn’t have the mental capacity to keep her occupied with chatter, so it makes perfect sense actualy he would join a gym with her. Something they can do any off time 24 hour a day. Also, basic script for recapturing his youth and his scared sense of mortality since his D14 and F died.  And knowing her… locking him into a year membership is getting another commitment from him. It is what it is. I’m glad I journaled my initial feelings on it. It shows I can still be triggered by this information being fed and that people jump to conclusions and I am reacting to it. Not good for me.

Also, you are spot on. I have always been self sufficient, but he made me co-dependent with his isolation of me. He did not want to be around other people. His insecurities. I knew not one neighbor on my street for 13 years. I now know and talk to them all. I realized right then just how dependent and isolated he made me. It has truly been an eye opener and one not easily broken when you keep hearing things. Yet… he is doing the same thing to her. Once I could get past the info being fed and come down from the hyped way it was given to me and take a breath I realized, so what??? This is HIM. Mirroring her. Making her happy. Doing whatever she wants him to do. He is still running. Going into work at the crack of dawn again and working 14 hour days to avoid home life.  It literally has nothing to do with what he didn’t do with me, but more what he needs to do to make her happy and create his new life for now. Escaping true intimacy which he can’t handle. Just keep moving. Keep busy. It really all means nothing.

[Treasur]

I can answer this one clearly for myself. I told him I wanted us to join a gym. He didn’t have time. I wanted to go on vacation. He didn’t have time. Etc….  So, that makes me feel it was me.

Ok. So let’s parse that....
What ‘I don’t have time’ actually means 95% of the time with humans is either ‘it is not a big enough priority for me’ or ‘I don’t want to do it or be open about why I don’t’. Just as true tbh when we say it to ourselves as when others say it.
So I guess the useful questions are something around what you did when he said No to a ‘us’ doing something? Did you do it anyway? How did you feel about his ‘no’ (bc that’s what it was) and is there anything useful there that you would like to change about your own lens or priorities?
And why do you think you are still mindreading quite a lot about why he is doing what he is doing now? Are you also in danger of drawing conclusions which are inaccurate or of limited use to you? Why does it matter at all to you, Tornup? Be clear....these are not questions you need to respond to here, or justify, merely an outside POV to prod you along with your own reflections. And of course, others at a similar stage, reading along.

I found it took great mental discipline....but got easier lol....to embrace the ‘I don’t know’ box tbh  bc that magic mindreading hat got a bit heavy on my head after BD  Or with events that actually involved me directly to go for that plus ‘bc he thinks it gives him something he wants or helps him avoid something he doesn’t want right now’. We humans are complicated in the fine detail imho but more simple in the big picture. We act bc we move towards things we want or away from things we don’t writ large. When you are dealing with folks who, for whatever reason, lack empathy or consideration of the effects on others in their problem-solving, in some ways it is a more obvious thing to see the role of their own priorities, is it not?

I say this with due compassion that this is also another layer of letting go. Letting go of some of our beliefs about ‘knowing’ someone as we thought we did or being able to predict their behaviour or feelings bc of years of knowing them. And it can be a painful thing bc it also represents a kind of loss, doesn’t it?

[MadLuv]

So I guess the useful questions are something around what you did when he said No to a ‘us’ doing something? Did you do it anyway? How did you feel about his ‘no’ (bc that’s what it was) and is there anything useful there that you would like to change about your own lens or priorities?

It was something I wanted to do together. Since he didn’t I had no desire to go to a gym myself. How did I handle this? I bought a peleton bike, peloton treadmill, put a home gym in my garage. I still did the fitness regimen for me in a different way. I clearly was not a priority to him. The information and his actions clearly are showing that. I think when it is something EXACTLY that I asked for and someone else is enough of a priority it still stings.

 The thing I am coming to is that it nothing against me. He didn’t want to do these things, but right now… she is enough of a priority for him to make the exception. That just stings a bit. It just does. The more time and distance it wont carry the weight it does, but right now it is fresh and the new  acceptance that it is what it is will take sometime. 30 years and the loss of a daughter was a lot of life to let go of and feel that it didn’t warrant more respect than what I got. That is what I am working on the most. Knowing this loving man that showed me nothing but love and respect for decades lost his moral compass enough to not care about the most important person in his life. I think it is what all us LBS struggle with. Luckily the struggle is not daily anymore, but right now with the relationship going public it has opened up some not clearly healed wounds. I just have to stop letting others pour salt on them or myself pouring the salt for that matter.

I know I am in a better place because I dont linger in it. The initial hurt happens, but it doesn’t stick like it used to. The biggest thing I struggle with actually now is my loss of my D14. The grief has started to resurface. Maybe how much time and effort I have put into healing him has made me resentful of him for my own pain. The death of a child are wounds that are very hard to close and move on from. He has been selfish. I put him above me. That was a mistake. He is not there anymore. I just have to stop letting his actions briefly put him back in that spot. That is on me and me alone.

[Treasur]

Ah yes, that time when our own Observer starts to show up regularly and we can see that new hurts don’t eviscerate us in the way some of the old ones did. We see signs of our own progress, just as you are doing.

I am so sorry about the pain you carry from the loss of your daughter. It is beyond my experience or ability to know what that feels like. Someone, I think Nas, recently posted a link about how new losses stir up old losses and it makes sense to me that they might. If only tbh bc the landscape of your own ways of commemorating and engaging with your daughter were shared before, and now perhaps not so much. I really did not understand grief at all before my own losses, that has humbled me and I feel a bit ashamed tbh of how ignorant I was. Fwiw I am not sure big losses like that ever really leave us.....they may not be open wounds, but we are marked by them, I think. We carry them with us.....perhaps it is just the the life around them evolves so they feel slightly different. I do know that for me one of the hardest things about losing my three people in different ways in such a short period of time was feeling bereft somehow that there were stories that I had no one to share them with who was there at the time.....I felt like I was carrying something so important to me but alone, that there were memories that just didn’t matter to anyone else in the way that they mattered to me. Occasionally that still hurts tbh. So our landscape can matter a great deal I think. No great wisdom from me, Tornup, other than to say that i am truly sorry for your loss.

[Nas]

Torn, think about the people in your life that you’re really close to, your absolute closest relationships (not including your children). Now think about if you saw this happening to one of the people closest to you.

Would you feel empathy and understand how terrible it must be for them, or would you go running to them trying to talk about all of the hurtful and painful things you’re seeing happening to their life?

Of course you wouldn’t, because you wouldn’t want to pile on their pain. Anyone who would breathlessly come rushing to you with gossip is quite honestly selfish, rude and lacking empathy. I had one person (a relative) like this in my life during the early days who would send me information without asking me if I desired to know said information. I very quickly put an end to it by saying “I can understand that you are having a hard time trying to wrap your mind around this crazy situation, but please understand that the situation is happening to me and it’s hurtful for me to see this. I would appreciate it, if you have respect for my feelings, that you no longer monitor my husband’s social media and especially do not monitor it and then share what you see with me.”
I then muted that person from my life because they proved themselves to be more concerned with the drama than my feelings.

People gossip, that’s an unfortunate fact. They also move on quickly after the initial “omg did you hear…?” and they’ll find new sources of gossip. Most people have enough self-awareness to know that they need to at least tiptoe around the situation, even if they’re trying to be “there for you,” and not shove it in your face. If you have a large number of people coming to you with speculation and gossip, or even hard facts (but really this us stuff no one could know for a fact and it’s no one’s business but his) especially after you’ve asked them not to, you have a large number of people in your life who lack boundaries and respect and empathy. If that’s the case, I personally would start cleaning house. Life is much more peaceful without drama lovers and gossip mongers.

[MadLuv]

Thank you curiosity and Kit for your earlier comments so much appreciated and absorbed.

Nas- thank you!! I am sure I brought some of it on myself when I was in the distraught stage and talking to people to get through. Specially before I had therapy. There are just hundreds of people we knew from work that think they are giving me info they know. I have been telling them not to tell me I know as I know it is detrimental to me. I am not in a place of standing as I was, but in all fairness to them it was info when I was standing I wanted to understand. I know now I will never understand. I think I have gotten through most that would share now and it should stop. It really is always a step backwards to have any insight and derails my progress to move forward in life. And moving forward is where I want to be!!

[xyzcf]

Our home is in the same place where head office is and there are lots and lots of people who know my husband.

Recently at a charity event, his old boss asked me 2 things..both of which were inappropriate to be asking me.

Then I had a call from an insurance broker asking me if I were related to him and asking me where he lives.

So even years later, there will be situations that can have an impact on you.

At least that has been my experience.

[MadLuv]

Xyzcf- I agree. We worked for the same company for 25 years together. Moved to many stated with our family and people are invested in our life. People loved us as a couple. There is shock. I get it!! Specially with the loss of our child and they can see his decline. I really get it. I think it will taper off, but I still have people that message me and say they know he will come to his senses and come back.

 It’s hard to hear. It can give you the hope that you wanted, but you are also trying to let go of. One thing I am sure of is I invested a lot of time, energy and love in the last year since he left. We have been very closely still connected and I have been his main emotional support. There is no doubt he is feeling that loss. Will it make a difference to bring him out? Highly doubt it. So, I am moving forward and starting to plan for my own life without him. Hopefully all things will now die down on the information. People do like drama, so I like you think years to come people will check on me and the situation. Years later will be easier to not be affected.

[MadLuv]

To change the script I saw this on Gallaghers thread from a decade ago and thought it was interesting read, so thought I would share again
——————————————————————————————————-
The True Definition of Love and Its Role In Surviving An Affair
    The Founder's Laptop
   by Rick Reynolds

In our culture, love is most frequently portrayed as an overwhelming feeling of attraction and desire for another. In the “Land of Disney” it is a magical force propelling us into “happily ever after”. Our souls resonate with this theme and we long for our chance to experience “true love” and a seemingly never ending passion which we all long for. This desire reveals our desperate need to be loved and to feel wanted.

Only problem is, the “Disney” theme of love exists only in movies and in the initial stages of a budding relationship. Those fledgling feelings are never sustained over a lifetime of marriage. You never see Disney films portraying this type of love in couples struggling with rebellious teenagers, when infatuation has disappeared and real life has arrived on-scene like a freight train. In fact, the exact opposite is far more likely to be depicted. Individuals wrestling with the question of whether to stay are standard fare for stories of those who are married, wondering if the grass is greener elsewhere.

Even less likely to appear in the Magic Kingdom is a couple suffering from a spouse’s deep addiction to pornography and illicit one-night stands. It’s certainly not warm and fuzzy and doesn’t attract the masses. Like many of you, I’ve come to learn and understand with great clarity that love is truly a choice, and if I make right choices, overwhelming feelings of love and romance will then ensue, even in the aftermath of surviving an affair. It’s just a mature truth that we hopefully arrive at before becoming too much of a human wrecking ball. I know from experience, however, that many times we become that wrecking ball and create incredible amounts of destruction before we realize how deceived and dangerous we are.

Our confusion is certainly understandable though. If I had a hundred dollar bill in one hand and a counterfeit in the other and offered them to you, which would you take? I hope it would be the real bill. But, if you were raised believing the counterfeit was real and the real was counterfeit, which would you take? That’s the problem with our understanding of marriage, love and long term relationships: We’re all amazingly disoriented believing the counterfeit is real and the real is counterfeit. I’d invite you to consider that maybe you don’t know what true love is. This self-awareness is also monumental when trying to learn how to recover from an affair.

Buddha said that “life equals suffering,” but I’d like to suggest that he missed the bigger truth which is that “love equals suffering.” Arguably, the greatest act of love represented in human history is Jesus walking the Via Dolorosa (the way of suffering). Where there is betrayal, if there is to be reconciliation, then the one who’s been betrayed ultimately pays the cost for the betrayal. Jesus exemplified this reality. He taught love rather than justice and even chose to pay the price for the crimes committed against him. He actually cared enough about and for others that he was willing to die so they could have a chance for life. Jesus taught that people change more by contrast than by conflict. When betrayed he responded with love, not justice or vengeance. His sacrificial love had such a powerful impact on those around him that they became willing to die for the sake of that same cause.

In order for a husband to be reconciled to his wife who has betrayed him, he has to walk through the hurt inflicted by her betrayal and ultimately forgive her failure to love, if they are to ever have a meaningful relationship. There is no way she can ultimately bear the pain for her own failure and its effects upon her spouse. She can be remorseful for what she’s done and she can make efforts to ensure it doesn’t repeat, but he is the one carrying the pain. She may come to a sense of sobriety and awareness for how her pain has affected him, but to think she will be the one who carries the true weight of impact by her choices is simply not true.

It is possible for the husband, , out of a sense of vengeance or control, to fail to love and attempt to hurt her in return, but this is the beginning of a new, separate offense which will only exasperate the entire nightmare. If that occurs she’ll have to walk through the hurt inflicted by his failure to love and ultimately forgive his failure to maintain his vows of love, hence a new cycle of hurt and pain arises. Surviving an affair then becomes that much harder

Love is a willingness to lay your life down for the sake of another. That love isn’t about trying to get the offending party to pay. It’s about a willingness to cover a debt that they could never pay. (That’s not to say the injuring party shouldn’t do everything within their power to help the injured mate heal. There’s just no amount of penance the injuring spouse can pay for their failure to love.) They can however, display brokenness, contrition and humility in their approach to recovery and possibly moving forward. They can also take charge of their own recovery and mental health, which speaks volumes of empathy to the betrayed spouse. Without such action, a wayward spouse will be hard pressed to make a case that they are truly sorry for their choices and impact upon their lives.

Please don’t think I’m saying that love recklessly reconciles with someone who is unsafe or hard-hearted. Remember, love, true love, always acts in the best interest of another. But if the one committing the offense is hardhearted, unwilling to accept responsibility, and chooses not to commit and honor the relationship, then it wouldn’t be in their best interest to reconcile and allow them to continue acting in a destructive manner.

It’s tragic when, after injuring others, we fail to comprehend the impact of our actions on those around us. Unless we understand and care about the costs our actions inflict on others, then we’ll never perceive the gift we receive from those who choose to love us rather than leave us. Understanding the cost of our actions is also crucial in learning how to recover from an affair. When I injure my wife through carelessness or selfishness, the person bearing the pain for my actions is my wife. Her choice to love and forgive comes at great personal expense to her. She chooses to give me the gift of love rather than the rejection. I witness her love each time she chooses to put up with the pain my actions inflict, in order to be with me.

There is no greater example of this truth than in couples where there is reconciliation following a betrayal. No one will ever convince me that there are no modern day miracles. Every time I see a couple come back together, I witness a shadow of God’s greatest miracle: the miracle of reconciliation.

[Standing Strong]

What a beautiful post Torn..... thank you 

-SS

[JohnnyBravo]

What a beautiful post Torn..... thank you 

-SS

Seconded!

[Curiosity]

Agreed, really lovely and thought-provoking.

[xyzcf]

Thanks Tornup.

I think it is very hard for people to understand "love" as described here. We live in a society that is all about "me first".

RCR's articles spoke about unconditional and agape love for our spouse and that made sense to me from the beginning of this journey.

In Christianity, the teachings of Christ are to love one another...as I have loved you. And to love your "enemies".

I do believe that it is by God's grace that I continue to love my spouse. This writing talks about the pain for the one who has been betrayed and as we all know that is very very real.

After so many years, I still have not seen any awareness of any pain he has caused, not one word.

Perhaps there are some people who are able to completely bury their feelings and may never acknowledge or allow themselves to feel.

Thank you for posting. I have read through it several times and it helps explain a great deal.

[MadLuv]

Xyzcf- I can’t imagine them never acknowledging the pain caused to someone they loved so much. My XH has always said that the pain he is causing me kills him.  Some ways it can make it confusing when they can see it in ways yet can’t find a way to come through. I would rather be in the loss and pain of being left( as my core being is still intact and will eventually be ok) vs the internal pain they are in. Can’t imaging what it is like to hate your self enough to run from the love you son’t feel you deserve.

I though this write up was spot on, so had to share. Thank you

[MadLuv]

Took my co-workers to the Chiefs game this weekend. They won, we won!! Great time. Great tailgating with many new friends met!! Today buying a fire pit for the back patio. Helping a new friend that I met through this process that went to court and divorce finalized. We have helped each other!!  Haven’t spoken to the XH for almost a month.

Feels so good. Sleeping better and looking forward to each day. The best is haven’t heard anything about his doings in life, which is so helpful to get out of that head space. Things are finally headed in the tight direction!! Enjoying my coffee by the pool I designed during our marriage and just appreciating the sounds of all the fountains and getting a little chuckle that he is paying for it. I know maybe a littler gloating happening, but whatever it takes 😊

[Standing Strong]

You sound great Torn 

Relaxing by the pool and going to games. Sounds pretty good to me.

A good book and a pool...... sounds really good. 

-SS

[MadLuv]

Really need some advise. I have not contacted my EX now in 28 days. Had to send him his tickets to NFL game, but was able to do that though the team site and so they transferred them for him directly. That was good. Now I have another issue. I have an unpaid colonoscopy bill he has to fill put a hippa form on. They would not send it to him direct, so I sent it to him by email and asked for it to be filled out and sent back. He has not done it. My therapist thinks he using this non response as a last ditch effort to hold some control on me. I dont know what it is,  but don’t know what to do if he wont fill it out. He also has not yet paid this weeks alimony.

I do not want to call him. I am doing so much better with no contact. Any advise?  It’s so odd. He has the ability to move on and just fill the paperwork and send it back and pay the alimony, but he seems to want to play with my head .I am not taking it personally, but also want the 3k bill paid and just do not understand why he is making things difficult now since she moved in. Seems like he would not want the frustration???

[Thunder]

Can you just email him a little reminder?  They do seem to get very forgetful.    

[MadLuv]

I will have to at some point, but I hate after all these days I have to even do that. Makes me feel like I an breaking contact and he is ignoring me which makes me feel a bit vulnerable. He has always said none of this about me ( and we all know that to be true) He also has said that he just doesn’t want to hurt anybody, but no matter what he does he still hurts me and that is killing him, but then he does this.

 Again, in MLC fashion his words are one thing and actions another. If he truly doesn’t want to hurt me and make things easier he would just follow through. He left and I filed and gave him his divorce in a record 90 days after a 30 year marriage. No separation. No counseling. I have gone above and beyond to make it easier on him. Hard not to get frustrated that he is not giving me the common decency to resolve business and move on. Ughh

[UrsaMajor]

I was going to say that giving him a reminder would probably be a good idea...

Why would he be forgetful?

1) He's off in Schmoopie-land so the life he left behind is off the radar screen
2) Schmoopie is attached to his side like an alien Face Hugger and he doesn't want to make her mad by having anything to do with you or communication with you
3) It has fallen through the holes in his Swiss-Cheese MLC'er Brain
4) He wants to annoy you
5) He wants to exercise one last bit of control
6) He wants to make your life as miserable as possible
7) He's too busy doing Schmoopie Stuff to deal with anything in real life...
he's broke and has no money because Schmoopie has taken it all
9) He's broke because he's been wining and dining Schmoopie
10) etc., etc., etc., ad nauseum

Trying to understand why a Mid-Lifer does ANYTHING is like trying to taste green with your elbow... An exercise in futility... and in Monkey-braining....

[Standing Strong]

Hi Torn,

My experience (just one) is that often times they do mean to do something, but the actual action? That's too much effort.

So many times I've been told something my MLC'er will do, and in her brain "it's done" *POOF*..... that was it. 
The intention was good, that was the effort, and it confuses when the issues comes up again. I've heard "I thought that was done?" a bunch of times...... um, no........ you agreed to something but haven't done that something. It can be frustrating, and trying. I really don't think they purposefully do this most of the time (sometimes yes, just to avoid).
I love UM's list though..... HAHAHAHAH!! Spot on. 

Try not to take it personal, it's not about you Torn. 

-SS

[MadLuv]

I love UM's list though..... HAHAHAHAH!! Spot on

Right? Hahaha. What would we do if we couldn’t find the humor. It is literally my lifeline to my sanity now.

[UrsaMajor]

I love UM's list though..... HAHAHAHAH!! Spot on

Right? Hahaha. What would we do if we couldn’t find the humor. It is literally my lifeline to my sanity now.

I took one of the better-known Skills Assessment Tests a few years ago (can't recall the name but it is surely in one of my past threads and it was widely discussed on HS for a while... ) and my number one skill was humour - finding things in any situation that were at least somewhat humorous and being able to get people to laugh about it without being demeaning or insensitive...

Now I am going to have to go figure out which one it was...

[xyzcf]

There is no way that you know what he is thinking or why he did not follow through.

Although NC is helpful for the LBSer, there also needs to be the ability to separate the business from the emotional aspects of this.
Unless you are willing to be inconvenienced by bills and alimony that are not being paid.

This is why I do not encourage people to go NC. Because that can back fire on you. You think you are protecting yourself but actually if you can work through this, so that contact with him does not shake you, does not upset you...then going forward, you will be able to not be shaken by contact.

Because in many cases, as much as we think that we will not allow contact, often situations come up that will mean there is some contact regardless of how much you wish it not to be so.

Sending him an email just stating the two things that need to be paid, nothing more, nothing less is really important for your financial security.

Do not risk this. Thinking about why he isn't paying is allowing him headspace that is not helpful to you.

I always prefer to take care of stuff like this immediately so I can put it behind me.

[MadLuv]

He sent it back. Yay!!! Problem solved. I do contact vis email when needed. Haven’t had to until now for a month. Just wanted to avoid a phone call. My D30 is wanting pictures of her as a child as well as she is trying to get pregnant and trying to figure out what her kids will look like. When going through pictures I found one of me and my XH taken many decades ago. I sent it to her and she asked where it was taken. When he responded with the form I sent it to him and asked where he thought it was taken and he responded where. He was always better on memory and places. So, that was nice. Got her answer and I thanked him for sending the form back. Hoping this will help with the alimony being sent, so I don’t have to email on it. He seems to punish me when we don’t talk, so hope this will help to resolve this. That I am not being mean. Just moving on. Phewwwwww

[KeepItTogether]

I am glad he sent it back! Yay for the MLCer!  When H was in the deepest parts, he forgot almost everything and I , too, hated to have to remind him. But I found that stressing out about it before hand was always way worse than sending the reminders.  It is so annoying though--I completely agree. We are responsible--what cant they be too? Oh yeah, MLC.     My H said to me recently, "I am working on myself. I am trying to be an adult"  Can you imagine a 49 year old judge saying such a thing, and not in a joking manner?

[MadLuv]

Yes Kit- my XH has said he doesn’t recognize who he is. Trying to figure out where he is headed. Doesn’t see he will ever get out of this head space. OW has got a long road ahead. I don’t think she cares. She has never had anything and he is giving her a life style she could not imagine and allowing his shut off behavior for it. I would not be surprised if she is or will cheat on him. I also dont think he would care. He cant be alone and is emotionally unavailable.I cant imagine being 55 and being so lost.

[MadLuv]

I saw this little tid bit on a site comment and thought I would share
As it is so true.

My grandmother recently passed away at 97 years old. She was never sick and had her wits about her until the last day. She was married to my grandfather for 72 years. Last year we took her to what would be her final Mothers Day brunch and she gave us girls a notebook of things she has learned. One of those things applies here “life may seem long but it is short. It is too short for gossip, unhappiness and needless struggle. I go to funerals for my friends and think about all the time we wasted on stuff that just doesn’t matter. Get rid of anything or any person that drains you.”

Why spend weeks/months/years trying to convince your spouse that he should choose you over another person? Why struggle to understand the actions of a liar and a cheater? There is a saying “when someone shows you who they are, believe them”. Maybe instead of looking at a CS as having done something TO you, you can look at it like they have done something FOR you. They have shown you you were being fooled and that you deserve better. If the OW wants a man like that let her have him!
Life is too short.

[Thunder]

Oh such wisdom, huh??  Everything that 97 year old woman wrote is pure gold!

[forthetrees]

Maya Angelou gets credit for the "If someone shows  you who they are, believe them the first time."

[marvin4242]

Why spend weeks/months/years trying to convince your spouse that he should choose you over another person? Why struggle to understand the actions of a liar and a cheater? There is a saying “when someone shows you who they are, believe them”. Maybe instead of looking at a CS as having done something TO you, you can look at it like they have done something FOR you. They have shown you you were being fooled and that you deserve better. If the OW wants a man like that let her have him!
Life is too short.

Great wisdom, but I am going to give an alternate take. I don't think anyone here suggest spending years (or even hours) trying to convince your spouse to "choose you." In fact the wisdom (which i do think is wise) is no matter what you choose to do focus on you, move forward, do not try to engage or fix or "convince" or play the pick me dance. Detach, focus on you, what you need, what you want, and take your eyes off your spouse. This is very hard in the early (and sometimes even later) days. I see a number of posters here and elsewhere who start with "I am focusing on me and have detached, but now let me tell you every tiny move my spouse made, or how I am poking them or testing them, or how i am taking care of them."

I only say this to clarify that one of the HARDEST parts is not reading or hearing the advice, but to take it in and LIVE it. Hour by hour, day by day. Some may choose to cut the rope and move on immediately. Some decide to stand. And some (I am one) are neither, we move on, we live our lives, but leave a door open for friendship, or maybe if there is joint kids for the kids.

And I'll say in the case of true MLC its never about the OM/OW, they are just an object, just like we and everything become objects.

I am glad you have decided what works best for you.

[MadLuv]

And I'll say in the case of true MLC its never about the OM/OW, they are just an object, just like we and everything become objects.
I am glad you have decided what works best for you.

It take a while to het here, doesn’t it? Finally figuring out little by little how not to be reactive, but understand  what I have to do to be the adult in the situation. One thing I do know is I see very little respect for the OW from him. So, I believe the fact they are just an object is true. I dont feel like an object. More like collateral damage in it all. Luckily my sense of self with distance is coming back and that is a place of home in itself

Ursa- is this the test?

https://www.viacharacter.org/survey/account/register

[UrsaMajor]

Ursa- is this the test?

https://www.viacharacter.org/survey/account/register

Yep, that is the one! I KNEW it started with a "v" but that was all I could remember... It REALLY did fit me though...

[MadLuv]

Conversating with my D30 on her xmas list yesterday. She said it’s a lot of work having to come up with two lists now. One for you and one for my Dad. She said however her Dad told her jokingly not to expect much. I told her ai am glad you are talking with him. She said Oh he didn’t reach out. I forgot his birthday and so I messaged him. He said neither of my children remembered my birthday. ( small chuckle in my head happening)

They didn’t forget mine? Of course I always messaged them on his. Remember it’s yours Dad’s birthday or hey we are going out to eat for your Dad’s birthday. Not my job anymore. The little things that I am no longer an influence on apparently coming to light. They are grown, so they should have remembered.  Still a little pleasure in this. I know….mean XW showing??? Oh well….

[Treasur]

Not my job anymore. The little things that I am no longer an influence on apparently coming to light. They are grown, so they should have remembered.

And there you go, Tornup, entirely appropriate XW behaviour. Well done! I think a lot of LBS find that putting down their old fixer hat tends to unfold itself into other relationships in a good way. And if others don’t like the consequences, well they are free to make different choices for themselves in future, right?

I told her ai am glad you are talking with him. She said Oh he didn’t reach out. I forgot his birthday and so I messaged him.

Why are you glad? More importantly, is she glad? This might be a little bit of fixer residue in you, some implication that you think there is a ‘right’ thing she should do or that he needs her support even, idk? Bc tbh, in the nicest sanest way, it isn’t your business is it? She’s an adult. He’s (technically) an adult. You can support her if it is what she wants, true enough, but i’m sure you’ll get to a point where you have no feeling about it being positive or negative either way. Just that your kids are comfortable with however they handle the relationship in a way that works for them.

[MadLuv]

Yes, you’re right. I guess I am trying to show that I want them to have a relationship with him. She did say he asked to come day after xmas to celebrate and I think with his girlfriend. That hurts. I wish it didn’t. There is a big part of me that doesn’t want my kids to embrace her. D30 said she lives with him. I can’t ignore that. My son will. He will not embrace her. I told D30 that ot is her decision on whether she embraces her or not and I will adjust, but I can’t not acknowledge that the situation hurts at this time. It’s just hard, right? I have to continue to work through my reality.

[Treasur]

That’s so marvellously honest of you, Tornup. And normal and understandable.
It’s not always easy to accept your adult kid’s choices, is it? But they do have them regardless of what they say they can or can’t do. Along with consequences....and what they choose may of course evolve over time bc to be fair everyone is trying to figure out what their boundaries are. Sounds as if you should plan to do something delightful on the day after Xmas!

[MadLuv]

I was invited to a Great Gaspy party. Could not have come at a better date and time. Then after the new year I have big decisions to make. My D30 is trying to get pregnant. I want to remain close to my kids and grandkids, but there is a big part of me that wants to escape to a new state and new surroundings and start all over. I feel I get taken for granted. Just trying to make decisions not on emotion and distress, but a clearer mind. Easier said than done.

[MadLuv]

So,documenting as it is part of me journey, but I am fully aware that I can take this with very little merit as manipulation is part of XH journey. XH could not get his tickets downloaded on his android phone. I transferred directly to him so I would not have to call, but it did not work out. He is not tech savy. So, he called today. Hopefully I got him straightened out.

Now… he proceeded to tell me he is working 7 days a week since she moved in. Work is bad and it is carrying over to home. He is not always happy to go home. She is asking a lot of questions and he is just shutting down. He said his diabetic numbers are all off. He is not wanting to eat (just not hungry) and what she cooks he is not liking and he said he tells her he doesn’t particularly like it ( that is not his norm) He said it is weird having her live with him. He said he not any better ( on his depression) I was surprised how much he talked.

I said well I guess if it doesnt work out move her back. If you can leave a 30 year marriage you can leave this relationship. No  reason to stay in something your not happy in, but it’s only been 2 weeks. Work is always stressful for him. He is going back to escape and avoid. Got himself in another decision he isnt happy in so just work so you dont have to go home mentality. If any of it’s true. I said dont have to be friends, but I would like to be civil when it comes to business and for our kids. He agreed .

 Was just a weird conversation. He offered up a lot. Hard to know if any of it is true or just manipulation to make me feel sorry for him. It’s not my problem anymore. Yet, it was interesting. Just don’t know if any of it is based on facts. I hope once he figures out the tickets we will not have anything to have to have contact over until next year. We did discuss alimony as I still have not received. He said he transferred it, but thought I wasn’t seeing it yet due to veterans day. If it keeps happening I asked for him to send checks I can scan to avoid these conversations . He also agreed if it continues to be a problem he was open to that solution and he would communicate if there were delays in the future. We will see…

[MadLuv]

So, XH still couldn’t figure out the ticket situation. He called this morning and I also told him I was buying a grill for the tailgating and his brother was going to store it for me and give me code access to the garage when I came for games. XH said, Oh.. Ok, I will bring my tent, chairs and coolers and put them there. We can just share them. ( we split games, so we go to different games) He then said. You can send the grill to me and I will put it together and bring it up with rest. I said, It has a 10 minute assembly. I can send it straight to your brothers. He said, we have seen him try to put together A child's playhouse we had to step in and do. Better just send it to me.

Anyways, it was a little glimpse of humor and normalcy in that convo. Wanting to share. Joking on past. I said, ok gotta let you go. He immediately changes to sad XH with a sad , ok… So, I said have a good Thanksgiving and Christmas and he said You too.
So, I hung up and my phone but my disconnect button hasn't been always working.  2 minutes later I went to use my phone and he was still on the line. My phone didn’t disconnect. He never hung up. So, hit the button to disconnect. Hmmmm, haha

 Not sure what to make out of the 2 conversations, he has been more engaging and communicative. What’s it mean? Who knows. Not really analyzing it, but documenting it none the less.  Now, I feel really strong going into the Holidays in the New Year. Hopefully all business is resolved until next summer when we pick the games for the next season. So, a good 7 months or so with total disconnect will be nice and at least we are going into that with a civil conversation. I can start moving forward and leave him to live with his life and the consequences of the those choices. Now, is my time.

[xyzcf]

Tornup,

Don't be surprised if there are quite a few more contacts over the holidays. It is quite common for them to do so at this time of year.

[Thunder]

Torn how does your disconnect button not work?  So if you hang up the person is still there?  How strange.
If that keeps happening I would call your provider.  Something is malfunctioning there.

[MadLuv]

Thunder- haha.old phone. I need to upgrade my phone. The touch button doesn’t alway take. I don’t pay attention. I dont make many calls. Mostly texting. Luckily I picked up the phone within a few minutes to call back my sister. It is weird he held on that long, but I will say he will never hang up the phone first, ever. He will wait for me to hang up always. He used to not say good bye back either. He said he associated it with good bye forever. He now will just say bye if he does.

Xyzcf- I think that should be it. I am pretty sure there will not be any calls during the holidays. He feels to guilty to reach out unless absolutely necessary.

[MadLuv]

I’m devastated. My S28 who has been battling depression since my XH left drank and drove. Wrecked his car. Messaged my XH as he has 2 cars to see if he could use one. He called. Ended up in a R talk in the end. Again, I know… I was so distraught All my common sense went out the door. I’m so Mad at the destruction left behind. What I am left to deal with. I already lost a daughter. I could have lost a son. He tells me OW is not his best friend. He is not there yet on love with her. He has to see where this goes. Its the path he is choosing. He wants to be friends but never coming back because he can’t.

Told him I was going to sell the house. He is coming to town Tuesday. If he wants to walk through the house one last time let me know and I will leave it and he can walk through and say goodbye.

In MLC form of course the convo pushes him away. He said he cant keep having these talks, but the destruction is all on me. It’s hard not to go there. I have made everything easy on him. Quick divorce after blind side. Packing him up. Being there emotionally after OW surfaced. He has never had to hang up the phone before and would not. Today I told him I can not be his friend. It is to much. He wants me gone and out of his life he can hang up. He said it’s not what he wants. I said it is exactly what you chose, so end it. I’m not doing it for you any more. He said It’s not what I want but I have to go and he finally hung up.

I know I did all the wrong things. I know it!!! I just need now to move on. Start over and wipe him out as if he doesn’t exist. This all is so crazy. Just insane. I will never in my life as everyone here on this forum understand this. I hope I have the strength to find a better path. I have always been resilient and strong. I have to tap into that. Let him live with his choices and free myself of trying to find any answers. There are none. He just doesn’t exist. I have to be ok with that. It is just gut wrenching how they destroy their lives and their families lives. I just could never.

I was doing so good…or so I thought. There is just nothing left of the life we built and who I thought I marries and I need a cinder block to know me back into reality and stop thinking that I could have done anything to change his path.

[marvin4242]

TornUp, really sorry for yet another difficult and painful experience. We all "did the wrong things" at some point. Its hard, really really hard. We knew these people, we cared for these people. They were such an integral part of our lives. We trusted them and let them in. We simply can't believe this is where we are now.

But I am going to say some things with a great deal of care for you. Notice something about the sentences above? They are all IN THE PAST. I am going to kindly say you are nowhere near being able to accept that yet. You are fighting for something that no longer exists, you are having conversations in an empty room with someone who is long gone. This is hard and painful but it is the truth.

And I would like to suggest its ok if you accept that you don't "get it" yet. Its not a weakness. I have seen you write about how you are getting it in one sense or another. Trust me we want to get there, so its easy to fool ourselves. But in order to stop falling into the pit we have to stop pretending we see the pit while we refuse to look down. What I am saying is its ok to acknowledge you yourself that you don't "know" yet how to be in this new place. By acknowledging that it may help you to slowly start change this cycle.

I only say this because I can really read that you are in pain. Nobody sticks their hand in the blender on purpose, so you have to honestly ask yourself why is it you are doing it. I would suggest simply go complete NC for a while. Not forever, don't even worry about "later." Just focus on the here and now and getting to a better bounded space.

[Curiosity]

Tornup, I’m so sorry to hear about the accident and that the fallout from it included a relationship talk. I’m not one for 2x4s - I willingly accept them when I need them, but I don’t like to use them myself. What I will say is this: you already know the relationship talk wasn’t the best choice, but it happened and it turned out as you might have expected. It was an emotional response to a traumatic situation and you did the best you could, you learned from it, and you will do better next time. You will make mistakes at times; you will make the best choice you can in the moment and it won’t always be the right choice; as long as you learn from it and grow from it, it doesn’t have to be a bad thing.

[xyzcf]

I’m devastated. My S28 who has been battling depression since my XH left drank and drove. Wrecked his car.

I am so sorry Tornup and glad that your son is physically ok. This is very traumatic and very distressful.

Messaged my XH as he has 2 cars to see if he could use one.

Did you message him or did your son? It isn't clear to me.

 

He tells me OW is not his best friend. He is not there yet on love with her. He has to see where this goes. Its the path he is choosing. He wants to be friends but never coming back because he can’t.

This is how we set boundaries. Sometimes there are issues that must be discussed although I don't include him in anything relating to my relationship with our daughter. My daughter and I figure it out. She doesn't go to her dad for any help so that makes it easy for me.

As soon as he started to mention OW and all the rest I would have said something like this "husband, the only thing we have to talk about is son's accident". I would not have listed to any conversation about OW..there is no need to hear him out on any of this.

Told him I was going to sell the house. He is coming to town Tuesday. If he wants to walk through the house one last time let me know and I will leave it and he can walk through and say goodbye.

Think about the reason why you told him this. Is the house yours? If so it is your's to sell (although tread carefully on that, be really sure that is what you want).....he has already said goodbye to the house and it is not his anymore so there is no need for you to offer this to him.

Today I told him I can not be his friend. It is to much.

Another boundary for you to figure out. For me, if there was any hint of an OW in his life, I could not have any contact with him..that is me but I don't believe that this is possible or healthy to have any knowledge of her or how he feels about her. It is like pouring salt on a wound.
 

I know I did all the wrong things. I know it!!! I just need now to move on. Start over and wipe him out as if he doesn’t exist.

I don't think we should ever tell ourselves that we did the "wrong" things. We are human and we have human reactions and responses....only with a great deal of time are we able to curb our responses. It takes years to be able to control this, because underneath our desire to be as you said "resilient and strong" there are many many layers to what has happened that need more time and patience to work through.

It cannot be forced of hurried through Tornup and we cannot tell ourselves that we are fine..because as you read the threads here....we are very much not fine...many years later...but we are better than we once were and we heal.

To me, healing only takes place with acceptance of the situation as it turned out to be. Impossible to make sense or understand what they are doing or why, no matter how much we discuss the causes...I always come up short with why this happened..but I do accept that it did.

 

I hope I have the strength to find a better path. I have always been resilient and strong. I have to tap into that.

There is nothing that says we have to be strong and resilient..because this is a major trauma and it takes a great deal to put the pieces back together and to heal. It's not about being strong Tornup, so don't beat yourself up about that.

I was doing so good…or so I thought. I need a cinder block to know me back into reality and stop thinking that I could have done anything to change his path.

Years later, I will go several days when I am "good" and then wham, something happens and I have a day that isn't so good. It just is that way...I do not judge myself for having those days....

I need a cinder block to know me back into reality

This is pretty strong imagery....perhaps what you need is to be kind and understanding of yourself and the pain that you are feeling...turn down the volume, turn down the brightness, make the picture smaller is how my therapist explained to me....so that it was tolerable enough for me to breathe.

My health, my emotional well being, my sanity needed kindness/gentleness and assistance from others who would listen to me cry, without judging.

Don't judge yourself so harshly Tornup...you are doing the best possible under the circumstances.

If he calls and wants to "talk" hang up......if he ever has anything to say to you that you want or need to hear, he will find a way to find you.

Your post today struck me deeply. I hope you do not think I am being harsh but sometimes an outsider looking in can see things with a different view...and what I have learned is I needed to start looking at him with a very different view than the man I loved for 35 years.

Peace to you this day.

[Evermore]

TornUp, really sorry for yet another difficult and painful experience. We all "did the wrong things" at some point. Its hard, really really hard. We knew these people, we cared for these people. They were such an integral part of our lives. We trusted them and let them in. We simply can't believe this is where we are now.

But I am going to say some things with a great deal of care for you. Notice something about the sentences above? They are all IN THE PAST. I am going to kindly say you are nowhere near being able to accept that yet. You are fighting for something that no longer exists, you are having conversations in an empty room with someone who is long gone. This is hard and painful but it is the truth.

And I would like to suggest its ok if you accept that you don't "get it" yet. Its not a weakness. I have seen you write about how you are getting it in one sense or another. Trust me we want to get there, so its easy to fool ourselves. But in order to stop falling into the pit we have to stop pretending we see the pit while we refuse to look down. What I am saying is its ok to acknowledge you yourself that you don't "know" yet how to be in this new place. By acknowledging that it may help you to slowly start change this cycle.

I only say this because I can really read that you are in pain. Nobody sticks their hand in the blender on purpose, so you have to honestly ask yourself why is it you are doing it. I would suggest simply go complete NC for a while. Not forever, don't even worry about "later." Just focus on the here and now and getting to a better bounded space.

Hi Torn
I 100% agree with the above. It’s unlikely that you’ve read my thread as I mostly lurk these days, but I can tell you that I completely know how you are feeling because our reactions/shock etc appear very similar to me (if you read my posts from 2018/9 I think you’d agree). I’m 3 years in now and while my head definitely ‘gets it’ well these days, my heart still lags behind. It can’t, still, ‘get’ that my H and my marriage is ‘in the past’. It still is bonded to him. My head is not fighting it. My head understands that my heart still needs time. It’s a very big thing to ‘get’. Allow yourself the time it needs to adjust to the shock. I’ve found that for some people it really does take YEARS. I’m so sorry you’re in such turmoil right now. As everyone here says, it will get easier with time. Big hugs to you.

[Thunder]

Tornup, trust me we have all made the same mistakes you are making.  That is why we are trying to tell you to back off. I really believe the biggest problem is, we can not wrap our heads around that this is no longer the spouse we married.  They look the same, the talk the same, but it is NOT them.  They go into some kind of La La Land that makes no sense to anyone but them.

We expect them to react like they would have, as we knew them.  They just don't.

Personally I would not have him walk through the house, if you decide to sell it.  Why?  Are you hoping it will spark some good memories that may make him change his mind?  It won't.

I would say nothing to you X or yours kids about selling your house until it is really you want.  Take your time.
You may change it 4 times before you make that decision.

[MadLuv]

Marvin- I thought I was owning that I thought I again was in a better place, but clearly not. I lost a child and the thought today that I could have lost another threw me in a tailspin. I blamed him for putting us here and me to pick up the piece. I want him to wake up, but I do know that isnt possible by any means of me. I was just distraught. I clearly have not accepted he is done.

Curiosity- thank you so much. I am trying. I am clearly a slow learner and dont handle rejection well. Another FOO I need to work on in therapy. He isn’t rejecting me. He is rejecting himself, but that is not how it feels. I feel humiliated and replaced.

Xyzcf- I messaged him and he called. If I wasn't distraught it would not have happened ,but when your son is in a serious accident hard to not reach out to his dad. At least for me.

Evermore- I have read all of your story. If I remember your XH was engaged for a while in the beginning. Mine has been very strange snd frankly all contact has been made by me as he said he felt guilty leaving and then expecting me to call, but he needed me to. Well, until recently

Thunder- our deceased D14 lived in the house. He never wanted it sold. He gave me the house and full equity. I was trying to give him the chance to say goodbye to the house and D14 and the memories.

I think in some ways I follow old threads and new and subconsciously hoped he would come around, but if not at least show some compassion for our loss and me being the mother of his children and our 30 years. I lost the same D14 that put him here, but also lost a husband and my family is crumbling. While he is living his new life I am dealing with the fallout. I know by reading on this forum I have to let go. The fighter in me is having a hard time accepting it. When this happened I just got so angry.

Frankly I am not used to be vulnerable and accepting defeat. I have my FOO from my parents divorce and can see that things are even worse than theirs even though I did everything to avoid it. I would have never agreed to a 30 day divorce for this. I get I am embarrassing myself with him. That I am not going to get the answers I deserve, but by god I keep doing it. He just doesnt care. It’s hard to have the memory of doing CPR on D14 and standing at a table with her lifeless body and have her father not think about my feelings. It is the hardest thing to get past. He just does not care.

[Thunder]

It is the hardest thing to get past. He just does not care.

We all understand more than you realize.  Probably the hardest thing most of us have ever had to go through.
How they just do not care is so very painful.

It will get better with time, Torn.  It really will.

[xyzcf]

We learn from each interaction don't we?

I am not sure that you can say he doesn't care. We really have no idea what they are thinking or feeling. Some MLCers don't seem to feel anything at all, at least outwardly and that is part of why they have affairs, gamble, spend money, use substances...to feel something.

He is not your go to person anymore and I understand that our initial response is to reach out to him..but......with adult children, I think we can allow them to be the ones to reach out to their parent, not us. They have to build whatever relationship they feel they must.

I know that sometimes I would find a "reason" to contact him and usually that turned out badly. I am not a part of his life and he is not in my life..and that is the hardest thing to accept, especially when something bad happens...but he is not your go to person anymore.

subconsciously hoped he would come around, but if not at least show some compassion for our loss and me being the mother of his children and our 30 years.

If they do "come around" it can be several years after BD. They do not show compassion/empathy/concern at all...which is why I sometimes refer to him as a "ghost"....and his lack of concern/compassion/empathy continues to this day..it is all part of the reality of their crisis.

I am not used to be vulnerable and accepting defeat.

It is NOT defeat...we never were given a chance to even fight, never a chance to try and mend what was broken, never even told what was broken....there was no war therfore I do not see this as a "defeat"....

I know that the loss of your daughter makes this loss very very hard to bear.....and it really is ok to be "angry" or anything else that you are feeling...acknowledge those feelings for they are real.

What we cannot do is "expect" them to feel anything the way we do.

It hurts Tornup, reality is, this hurts deeply and pathologically for the LBSer because all the things that we would normally do to make things "better" have absolutely no use in this.

I am sorry this is so very very hard.

[Treasur]

Dear, dear Tornup.
I am so sorry for the distress you have just experienced. So very sorry.
I can see that folks have jumped right in to offer their support and understanding bc you matter to us.

I hope you can see that the common tone in our messages is one of profound acceptance.
That where you are is where you are, that how you feel is how you currently feel, that you did nothing ‘wrong’, that all you write sounds entirely understandable to us. It may not always be this way, but it makes sense to us, so much sense, that this is where you are at this moment.
And I hope that you can see that if we can accept you just as you are right now, that it might be possible for you to do the same. Warts and all. Upswings and downswings. Bc we know you are doing your best in an almost intolerably painful situation and that’s good enough....it is just that some days our best works out better than other days, that’s all.

I see that you talked about being a fighter. Lots of good things about that. But maybe it’s a different kind of fight or choosing your battles differently, idk.

I went into this life experience earnestly believing that my greatest strength and value as a person was that I was smarter than your average bear. And truthfully, I am pretty smart lol. But I found myself in a situation where smart didn’t seem to make much difference bc I couldn’t seem to think my way out of where I was. And that was pretty scary bc if that didn’t work, I felt I had nothing in my tank. Which eventually (bc I was a very slow learner for such a smart bear ha ha) forced me counter-intuitively to feel my way out instead of think it. I had to unlearn some old ways to pick up some new ways....and then ironically the smart came back a bit further down the line. But gosh it was frightening to feel the emptiness of that tank.....and as Marvin said, I had to look at the big hole first, to really see it, before I could find a different way round it. Maybe it will be the same for your Fighter....

It’s ok to be where you are. Sucky but necessary. It is part of where you are going to, not where you will stay. We don’t think any less of you for it and I hope you can find a way to feel the same. And it will get better, my friend.

[marvin4242]

The fighter in me is having a hard time accepting it. When this happened I just got so angry.

Frankly I am not used to be vulnerable and accepting defeat. I have my FOO from my parents divorce and can see that things are even worse than theirs even though I did everything to avoid it. I would have never agreed to a 30 day divorce for this. I get I am embarrassing myself with him. That I am not going to get the answers I deserve, but by god I keep doing it. He just doesnt care. It’s hard to have the memory of doing CPR on D14 and standing at a table with her lifeless body and have her father not think about my feelings. It is the hardest thing to get past. He just does not care.

TornUp I don't know if this will help or not, if not please just ignore, but I want to try once more.

I bolded some parts of what you wrote. Start with being a fighter. That is a good thing as others have said, its strength. But what exactly are you fighting? Are you fighting reality? Are you fighting the pain? Are you fighting your husband psychological traumas and fracture? Are you fighting the universe? Luck? The faiths? Can any of these things be fought into submission?

You also talked of accepting defeat. I am again curious. How are you defeated? Who defeated you? In fact what part of your husbands issues are yours? Who handed them to you? Do you really own any of this? And your comments show a lack of compassion for yourself. You are being very harsh in my opinion. Things happen. You didn't cause this. You can't control it. You are a bystander, you were deeply hurt and your life has been altered. You have to be kind to yourself and try to heal, take care of yourself, and regain your footing. I sound like someone who if you came across someone in your position you would want to give them a hug, and treat them with care and gentleness.

And the last part is the first big challenge, to accept and internalize that he either is not willing or not able to care. It doesn't matter which. I have said before if someone hits you with a car you are just as hurt if they did it on purpose or by accident.

[MadLuv]

Thunder, Xyzcf, Marvin & Treasur-

Thank you for the support. It’s been a gut wrenching day. Feel like I wasted or wiped out a year of work and am starting over, but I know that is not true. I am not a puddle on the floor right now, but it does feel a little hopeless and I know everyone has been in this place. One thing I have come to realize is that as time goes on no matter what happens you never go as far back in distress as the beginning. Every incident does keep making you stronger for the next blow that is to come. With that you dont seem to get stuck in the agony as long.

I am truly grateful for all of you on this forum for getting me through these depleting moments that have come. I have no idea how any of us are not in a straight jacket in a padded room blubbering nothings to ourselves. It is our life. Our life that someone who vowed to always be there and love us that has done this and we have no idea why. The craziness of that is just so hard as we all know.

I have always lived in reality. Things have to make sense for me to learn. Even in school. If it didn't make sense I didn’t absorb it and I think that has kept me stuck. I have to find a way to get past that. This is my reality and nothing is changing it. I guess I have some serious therapy ahead.

Its hard to accept the most important person in the world just doesn’t love you anymore, but he doesn’t . That is my first thing I have to accept. That is going to be my biggest hurdle. But it is a FACT! I don’t think I have ever had this happen to me in my life. No one has ever left me, ever. Not a high school boyfriend or anyone. Maybe this is the one life experience I was not prepped for. I thought losing my D14 was going to be the hardest thing to get through. Somehow it is like I lost the rest of my life due to her loss.  I am grieving her and my life now. It will be a long road ahead. I can see that now.

I think at some point he will feel the loss and when he does it will be a much bigger loss than I feel right now.

[Trustandlove]

Hi, Tornup,

This is hard -- very hard.  Unfathomable.  I just wanted to say that I don't think you did anything "wrong" by reaching out to him because your S had an accident; I did that as well -- the day after my H had been particularly nasty to me one day years ago my S was hit by a car.  He's a bit younger than yours, but still over 18, but with special needs so absolutely needed an advocate.  I did call my H.  Luckily we didn't get into any R talks; I was still at the point where I thought it was "right" to contact the other parent in this, potential very serious, situation.  The acute situation was OK; I was the one talking to the doctors, but the next day H was back to being nasty.  And when I called a week later to give a progress update even more so. 

And this was all years after BD.  And the fact that he just did not care still hurt.  Still does, if I'm honest. 

I know about being a fighter. With special needs children  I've fought educational authorities, hospitals, goodness knows what, always just putting on my big girl pants and diving in.  It took absolutely ages, years, for me to get it through my head that I couldn't "fight" this. 

You haven't gone back to square one, you are going through it all. 

I know how it feels to be just so tired of having to pick myself up after being knocked back.  But you are absolutely right, it does get easier, takes less time.  I think I only now have "got" what detachment means, I think I faked it for ages.  Or should I say "practised" -- it's definitely not something we're born knowing how to do.

Just one foot in front of the other, you are OK. 

[MadLuv]

Thank you TrustandlLove,

It always helps to hear others stories, perspectives and most of all encouragement. Knowing others can relate and have made it through gives us all hope. S28 lives with me as well. Not sure an aspect I have mentioned. So, I am more affected and inclined to step into that motherly role more frequently then if he was living on his own. I get these MlC’rs are escaping their life, but we don‘t get to. We have to face the life full on and all the brokenness they caused. So, when major things happens it feels even more unfair doesn't it? It’s hard to try to put together everything with nothing major happening in the first place. We really are just put in such a heavy burden to bare position.

Want to add to further journal on the incident. I got up this morning to feed the dogs at 4:30 am. Turned around and S28 was sitting on the couch. Startled me. He gets up early to go to work, but instead was just sitting there looking depleted . I said what are you doing? Just gathering my thoughts, he said. I said, what happened. Did you get a DUI? He said, No. I was just waiting for a tow and a woman police officer came up and said she called one for me. Asked if I was ok. I said, she didn’t arrest you or make you do a sobriety test? He said, No.  I’m shocked. He was agitated that I was asking these questions as I am sure he doesn’t want reminded what could have happened, but he needs to be.  I said you were obviously still under the influence when you got home. You are lucky you are ok. That someone else wasn’t hurt. The car can be fixed, so it could be worse, but it can’t happen again.

He said his Dad called asked what happened, if I was ok and told me if I needed anything let him know.  I was thinking,hmmm he could use your second car??? It’s just sitting in the garage. Found out yesterday it has a repair that has been needed and has just been sitting there unfixed. A 60k sports car. I guess too much spending on then other woman to afford the repair.

 I think one thing the MLC’r has on the LBS is they are so self absorbed that they don't really want details or to know what really is going on. I think for my kids he almost seems like the sane one in many aspects. They are so detached. Where us LBS are more in reality and have emotions. I find that to almost be a detriment on trying to put the life back together. They can pop up here and there and re-exit. We are living it every moment. For kids I think they prefer the detached aspect in many ways. At least older kids. Obviously if you have younger ones that is not the case. Just an observation.

[MadLuv]

I know I am journalling a lot, but just so much has happened in the last few days. I like everyone here I am sure have read so much on this forum outside of our own stories and the one I have read every aspect of has been shock sis. Due to that I felt I needed to share some things said by XH that clearly are some things that shock sis talked about when sharing her story of coming in and out of the fog after moving in with OM.

Shock sis said she clearly had moments when her past life with H came into her thoughts and were her reality check. That she would let then seep in and then quickly replace them to go back into the safe bubble. One instance she talked about being in the shower and she weeped as she remembered her H.

In talking with XH he stated that he has moments when he is in the bathroom that he cries and misses his family. He did state they were more intense while on a vacation for 11 days with OW, but it still happens, but shorter and not as intense ( learning to get out of those thoughts easier? Seems like not progress, but fighting coming out of the fog) he said also I enter his thoughts a lot. Sometimes he is eating dinner and thinks about what he would be eating if I was cooking ( he is not a fan of her cooking, makes sense) also, that he will see her in a place in the condo I once stood and it seems odd it’s not me.

I know it seems odd that he is able to share and reflect this while clearly in escape and avoid, but just wanted to share that they do think about us. Even when they are in a state they dont want or see themselves every returning. We often look at them as a ghost, but we are kind of that for them as well. We are not so easily forgotten. For what it’s worth. 

[Treasur]

For those of us with spouses that essentially vanish in a puff of smoke, I can remember a time when I thought this wasn’t true in my situation but took comfort at the time that it might be, based on other people’s stories. There is something so gaspingly painful about seemingly becoming nothing to someone that was very hard to accept.

With time, I think in my situation my POV changed a little. First, I suppose I got more comfortable with the idea that I just didn’t know. I genuinely don’t know if that is bc clingers and vanishers are inherently different in their mindset, or if both think/feel the same but with a vanishing spouse you just have no information. Tbh, either one might be true, idk. I just know that I felt erased and as if I had become nothing at all to him bc factually that was how my then h behaved so that was pretty much my experience of what happened to me. And owning my own experience became more important in my healing than speculating about his. I have no idea if he ever sobbed in bathrooms or ever thinks of me now.  Although it would be an odd thing if one did not occasionally after decades of a shared life...but my former h did become pretty odd, so who knows 

What was more useful to me, and became more and more obvious over time, was that practically speaking it didn’t matter. It changed nothing at all in my life whether I thought he thought about me or not or indeed if he did think about me while his actions said not.  It changed nothing in the situation created by his behaviour and by my own choices about the unexpected life I now had. I can imagine other situations for other people where it might matter for various reasons, but in my situation his behaviour was facts, not his unknown feelings. Not for me. Maybe for him, but not for me. And tbh I got tired of my own magic mind reading hat lol....I might have picked up a faulty one in the store ha ha. Bc as Marvin has said a couple of times, if someone runs me over, their feelings about it or reasons for it don’t actually change the reality of my injuries. But it took me a very long time to reach that point and I only got there after a couple of years of NC at all probably, so I can completely understand that people have different POV about it. It is not a one size fits all thing, is it?

[barbiedoll]

You also talked of accepting defeat. I am again curious. How are you defeated? Who defeated you? In fact what part of your husbands issues are yours? Who handed them to you? Do you really own any of this? And your comments show a lack of compassion for yourself. You are being very harsh in my opinion. Things happen. You didn't cause this. You can't control it. You are a bystander, you were deeply hurt and your life has been altered. You have to be kind to yourself and try to heal, take care of yourself, and regain your footing. I sound like someone who if you came across someone in your position you would want to give them a hug, and treat them with care and gentleness.

.

This is worth reading again from Marvin and attempting to answer some of these questions. Giving "ourselves a hug and treating with care and gentleness" feels awkward in many ways and not even thought of unless someone mentions it. We can be so very out of touch with are own selves that we provide very little attention to "self-kindness"....at least I do. We are accustomed to (hopefully) expecting others to provide this or give this to us . I have thought about this a lot lately and have a little sticky at my desk that reminds me to be kind to me .

The other observation about myself ( and I have seen it in some of your writings) is MOST of the "mistakes" we have made are from a state of reactivity. I can say for certain that when my fight or flight is activated....all bets are off as the logical, decision part of my brain has gone off-line. Any damage or mistakes I have made, are when I am in this "hi-jacked " place. We all know the extreme difficulty it is to respond instead of react...not an excuse but it is an explanation This is my biggest issue, fighting with my reptilian brain because when he takes over the outcome is never positive.  We are only humans after all and most of us here are full of hurt, fear and frustration and our reactivity runs amuck with these ingredients in ample supply.  Its simply OK...we get back up and try to manage our lives in a different way.

I see that you do spend much time talking about feeling "better, stronger, in control, going zero contact etc etc" and you absolutely feel that and believe it. So when it " seemingly falls apart" and it is not so true after all ..it can feel like a huge blow. It has happened to me countless times. Damn reptile! . And I do mean countless times that I "thought" I had a solid healthy grip on something, only to be proven entirely wrong. Its hard to take , it really is.  But we start again anyway.

I am so sorry you had this experience and feelings of failing to stay in charge of your reactivity . I am the queen of that club I can assure you.  I do not believe your H "does not care" . I just do not accept that at all. He is incapable at this point in his crisis to feel anything that makes sense. He is running in his own reactivity and that is unlikely to last the rest of his life. Back you go to strict no contact ...zero.  Let him run himself out with no interference from you. You will be busy attending to yourself after all.

[MadLuv]

Thank you Treasur and Barbie- I think you both know how much I value your advise and if you don’t let me tell you I DO!

[JohnnyBravo]

Hi, Tornup

Just catching up on your thread... What a terrible weekend, so sorry to hear about your son's accident and I'm glad he's OK (physically, anyway).

No further advice to add, other than 1) this whole thing is really hard, and 2) we all do the best we can at any given time.

I'm taking RCR's "Detach and Thrive" course. I'm getting a bit behind in the lessons, but it has been helpful, and specifically has a section on responding vs. reacting, with exercises on how to get there. (I guess it's OK that I'm getting behind, as it means I'm spending more time on personal projects than LBS-world...)

Keep venting,

JB

[MadLuv]

JB- I thought about taking that. Of course if I don’t talk to him at all that will be the ultimate detachment, but I guess mentally could still use some work. I just have to remove his number from my phone. First off! 🤪😜🤐🤐🤐🤐🤐🤐🤐🤐

[JohnnyBravo]

The class also has information on meditation, how to plan your "life mission," and how to pause for a moment when a situation arises that you may "react" to rather than "responding." That could be as up front as the MLCer showing up at the door, or a case like your son's accident. In that regard, it's also useful for personal growth, not just MLC/LBS dynamics.

RCR also hosts Zoom sessions twice a week; it's nice to talk to actual people once and a while. (vs. messages on the forum.)

[MadLuv]

My son came home and his eyes were red and I asked him if he was ok and he just started bawling. Let me tell you. Nothing…. Absolutely nothing is a better motivation for no contact than this for me.  This is the second breakdown he has had. Haven't seen my adult son cry since he was a small boy and now twice in 2 months. The first was after my daughters wedding reception when he told me the pressure he felt to make up for the absence of his S14’s absence in our lives. Trying to achieve anything and everything she would not be able to.

And, now. The loss of a father he once knew. He has a father. He talks to him, but he is not the same and he is not present as he has for his 28 years. To be with someone he can’t stand. I am sure the pressure at work that is under his fathers position. My heart breaks for him. I told him after the wedding that nothing is expected of him, but to be him and today I told him that he is going to be ok. Everything is going to be ok. I have never lied to my son and I hope with everything that is still the case.

The ramifications of these MLC’rs crisis is just never ending. I told him that life can suck at times. We seems to get more piled on us at once than we can handle, but we keep going. Gave him a big hug and said you’re ok. There is nothing worse than seeing your child in pain and it certainly got me out of my poor me attitude.

Got his claim filed. The cars in the shop and the car will get repaired and so will we.

[Thunder]

Good Tornup!

You are there for you're son, where his father can't be.
He will remember who was there for him.  You said all the right things, yes life can suck sometimes but if the rest of the family sticks together the love will heal you all and  nothing can take that away.

I so feel for these pitiful MLCer's.  They are losing the most precious things in the world and some day they will feel that.

But not your circus. It's his.

Tornup do you think some AA meetings may help your son?
Many LBS's I know have gotten much support from Alanon meetings.  I know it sounds crazy but dealing with an Mlcer can be the same as dealing with an addict.
Just a thought.

[MadLuv]

Thunder- great minds think a like. I actually told XH on the last convo when I talked to him about the incident that I wanted him to suggest it to S28.  I feel my S28 has now broken down twice in 2 months and I said that I felt he left this destruction behind and he needed to step up to the plate and handle it. It can’t always be me.

You know I also got in a disagreement with D30 over this all as well. She keeps making insensitive jabs at me thinking they are funny. When I told her I was going to suggest her F let S28 use one of his cars she said, he can’t his girlfriend is to busy driving it and laughed. Honestly, D30 and I are not doing well. She is embracing her Dad and more than willing to meet his OW. She seems totally insensitive to me. I have told her that she is an adult and can embrace who she likes, but she still needs to remember that I am hurt by this situation and I dont need insensitive comments made.

I had to apologize to her and she still wont talk to me and honestly it wasn’t my place to apologize. So the family is not intact even though I am the one here trying my best. The damage is here and I am struggling  to repair it. With him gone it has definitely created issues that are just hard to figure out how to handle. I do believe the reliable parent seems to get the most abuse, because lets face it they know we aren’t going anywhere. She would never talk to her F the way she talks to me.

What makes it really hard is her F says terrible things about her. Once saying her didn’t care if she was in his life. Does she know that? Of course not, but he is special to her. She never sees her dault and would never apologize to anyone and specially not me. I have pointed put to her. Please read our texts. I am always there for you and I am always apologizing when it isn’t my place to save the peace. You count your I’m sorrys and Mine and get back to me. Ahe just can’t see it. It is a lot of my therapy as well.

[MadLuv]

Just read Nah’s book and let me tell you….life changing. So much could be my story. All our stories. It truly has impacted me. If you get a chance read it. I could not put it down.

https://heneversaidaword.com/

[Thunder]

Yes it was a great read, I'm waiting for her to write a second book.  Life goes on.

[MadLuv]

Yes!!! I an ready for that one as well

[Thunder]

Time for a new thread, Tornup.   

[MadLuv]

I thought it was 150?

[Standing Strong]

It is 150..... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!

 

Now you're one closer 

-SS

[UrsaMajor]

Thunder just wanted to get in there ahead of me since I am usually the one telling people they need a new thread... <snort>

It is 150 so you have 6 more to go...

[MadLuv]

LOL, I think maybe everyone is tired of this depressing thread and ready for me to start a new. I feel a good change a cominnnnn!!  The final COUNT DOWN!!

Had therapy yesterday and it was a good one. So many positives. I am going to skip thanksgiving week. I feel the next one may a doozy as well depending how Thanksgiving goes. D30 still isn’t talking to me and she and her in laws are to be coming and not sure now if it is off or on. What I do know is I am not concerned either way. I am just going to go with the flow.

Reading Nahs book brought some answers for me on why I struggle with D30 in life. I truly was the sole disciplinarian in her life. Always the bad cop and he was always the good cop, so much more for her to hold over me in a way. It was like a light was turned on. THAT’S IT. I truly did most the parenting. I don’t know if she and I will ever get back to a good place. I hate that. In my memories on FB I see when she lived in another state during her first marriage that she was always posting and commenting and it is endearing to see. I think with her distance makes her appreciate me more. So, not so odd that it seems even though her Dad is absent for the most part ( except text messages) that she would  be more positive towards him. Absence makes the heart grow fonder as they say!

I made huge leaps this week after S28 accident. I deleted all videos and pictures of XH off my phone (600) and sent him the ones that would be very important for him to have. I had screen shots of messages to EA’s. All gone…big move and freeing. I am letting go. It is what it is and it is done.

I still have him in my phone, but changed his name. He is opposite of who I knew, so I reversed his name on my phone and when talking to friends or responding if they ask on the new escapades of his MLC I refer to him with the reverse name. Let me tell you it is a changer. Not having to say his name is EVERYTHING!! Best thing I have come up with yet! And his reverse name is hilarious!!

[HeavenlyFocus]

Reading Nahs book brought some answers for me on why I struggle with D30 in life. I truly was the sole disciplinarian in her life. Always the bad cop and he was always the good cop, so much more for her to hold over me in a way. It was like a light was turned on. THAT’S IT. I truly did most the parenting. I don’t know if she and I will ever get back to a good place. I hate that. In my memories on FB I see when she lived in another state during her first marriage that she was always posting and commenting and it is endearing to see. I think with her distance makes her appreciate me more. So, not so odd that it seems even though her Dad is absent for the most part ( except text messages) that she would  be more positive towards him. Absence makes the heart grow fonder as they say!

Hi Torn,

I too have struggled with my oldest D who also has seemed to side with my W despite what she has done to our family.  I think my D daughter wants to have a closer relationship with her M so her positive feelings are a longing for reconnection.  It's been hard but I have just had to accept that I need to be the stable parent and rock for kids right now providing unconditional love.   Hope you are able to reconnect with your D in time as you continue to heal and move forward with your life.

Love the reverse name by the way. 

HF

[MadLuv]

Thank you HF. Just got the following from her.

I've thought about this a lot. I don't know who you were talking about me to, but clearly it's something that you do frequently. I don't know why you had an issue admitting that. but I'm going to need some space and I think it's best to cancel Thanksgiving. I don't want to discuss it further.

Sent her screen shots of my convo with my Two friends where I clearly state I replied to her in third person and she still called me a liar. These MLC’ers rip apart our lives and we pay?? It is frankly disturbing, but I am going to brush it off and I will not do any holidays. She can spend it with her Dad and new mom. I have to put myself first. I have put everyone else before me and here I am. Getting run over like road kill.  Where did I go wrong? I just don’t know. Again good cop (Dad) bad cop (me)

[xyzcf]

This may come across as a 2 x 4 but I have been thinking about some of what you wrote and wanted to ask you to think about a few things.

I do understand that you and your daughter have in the past had some difficulties. It sounds like you are blaming her father for these issues...but.....

Sometimes we get everything so tangled that we rewrite what was true in our past.

I do believe this 100%...after a parent leaves, our children, especially adults need to figure out their relationship with their parent on their own. It is not ours to involve ourselves in.....we can only answer to them as their mother and should not be involving ourselves at all in their communication with their dad.

Here are a few things I think you should reread and think about:

I made huge leaps this week after S28 accident. I deleted all videos and pictures of XH off my phone (600) and sent him the ones that would be very important for him to have. I had screen shots of messages to EA’s. All gone…big move and freeing. I am letting go. It is what it is and it is done.

I think that I am not the only one who has stated that healing from this takes a great deal of time. You often mention that you are over it all but perhaps you need to slow down..especially with the holidays approaching there will be all kinds of triggers. Indeed, after such a long marriage, the effects of what happened may very well stay with us the rest of our lives. I don't deny these feelings, I recognize them as being normal considering how our marriage ended. Just saying, don't try and think your way out of this. Feelings don't necessarily disappear because we tell them to.

As for sending the photos to your husband that you think he should have...you seem to send him things quite often that you think are important to him. In reality, if he wanted these things, he could ask you. I would not be sending him anything. If you wanted to keep those pictures, open a new file and save them there...each time you contact him can create a thought in you that this will impact him somehow. Step away.....no need to send him anything.

 

D30 still isn’t talking to me and she and her in laws are to be coming and not sure now if it is off or on. What I do know is I am not concerned either way.

Are you really "not concerned either way"? I cannot tell you but I doubt that not spending time with family on the holidays would not concern you. Maybe I'm wrong.

It is frankly disturbing, but I am going to brush it off and I will not do any holidays. She can spend it with her Dad and new mom.

"brush it off"...once again it's not that simple. The holidays are going to happen and people are telling you their plans and there are memories of all the past holidays. Again, why is it that you think you can "brush it off"?

OW is not her "new mom". Never was, never will be especially since your daughter is a grown woman. But somehow, you worded it this way (it made me cringe to read it so I cannot imagine your thinking it).

I will reiterate, my own experience as well as friends of mine who have gone through this and have grown up children....develop your own family traditions, you are still a family..he does not get to destroy that...he left but the rest of the family can still function...unfortunately, sometimes it is the left behind parent that has to shoulder all of that and it isn't easy.

Just some of my thoughts, take them as you wish. You may not agree with anything I have written and that is fine.

Do you have some plans for Thanksgiving? With your son? Other friends? It is a tough time.

[Nas]

I’m just catching up on most of the responses you’ve gotten throughout the week. Realizing that I’m late to the party, I just wanted to post a few thoughts that came to mind reading this thread. You’ve gotten some really wise, compassionate responses and I agree with everyone: acceptance is hard and takes concerted effort, but it’s so necessary for your wellbeing, for your sense of peace.

I’ve been thinking about things over this week as I have been riding out the side effects of a pretty brutal treatment infusion, the first of what will be many, and I thought my musings might resonate for you or others reading along. Sunday morning I woke up on the floor in the kitchen, all alone, not sure how I got there. I had passed out apparently. All week I have had difficulties, mostly minor thankfully, from scalding my hand trying to make soup to feeling too woozy to drive to the pharmacy to forgetting to take medication to not being able to open the Gatorade (why are those caps so damn tight?) - all things I can manage (except the Gatorade that I still can’t open lol) but would be easier with a partner to help me out.

You know, the thing that sealed the deal for me about standing in front of someone and saying vows was that whole “for better or for worse” thing. That really hooked me. Having someone there for you for better or for worse? Uh, YES please. Sign me up, I’m all in.

A few years ago I would’ve woken up on the floor singularly focused on that vow and how it was broken, to my mind unjustifiably and unfairly broken. But there I was a few days ago lying on the floor alone, in truly agonizing pain, and I got myself up and crawled back under a blanket, and I was not really sad and definitely not angry, but more…almost empowered. Not because I managed to scrape my pathetically weak self off the floor, but because I did it without equating it to him not being there for me. Because that wasn’t always the case; it took me a good while to get here and now that I’ve been here for a few years, I can say it’s so, so, SO freeing.

If this had happened in the very early days, my God, it would’ve been so devastating - I feel this is sort of where you are at the moment, and it’s a place we’ve all been. I would’ve felt neglected and I would’ve been angry at him when I woke up there alone on the floor - when really he had nothing to do with it. He left and he caused a lot of damage, but if I were to blame him for things that happen when he’s already gone, it’d be like tethering myself to the pain instead of letting go of it.

But it’s understandably hard to separate all the moving parts early on. Your husband made some terrible choices that hurt you and your children. That is a fact. That is an indisputable fact. But as we always say, they’re going to do what they’re going to do (with no rhyme or reason often), but we get to choose how we respond, and as much as we can all understand your inclination right now to blame him for being a catalyst to your son’s accident or your daughter’s current need for space or anything else that happens or will happen, it gives him too much power over you, too much power in general to factor his past betrayal into current and future events. Our spouses made choices that caused us (and children if there are any) pain, but what we choose to do in response to that pain is ours.

I hope this comes across in the way I intend it. It’s not an admonishment of where you are at all, it’s more a shared understanding of where you are at. We have all been where you are and can empathize, but we also want to be sure you’re honoring your feelings (rather than “brushing them aside” where they’re apt to come back even stronger), and also not conflating cause and effect with everything that happens from here out. You are in a sense still straddling that wavy line where you remember the man he was and are grappling with the man he is, and being in that in between place is absolutely confusing as hell. That’s why it’s good to post here, where people who have been there before can try to help you get out of that hazy middle zone. It does take deliberate effort, but once you get there, like I said, it’s incredibly freeing. Once you feel that weight lifted off of you, it’s a whole new world for TornUp.
Hang in there.

[barbiedoll]

Reading Nahs book brought some answers for me on why I struggle with D30 in life. I truly was the sole disciplinarian in her life. Always the bad cop and he was always the good cop, so much more for her to hold over me in a way. It was like a light was turned on. THAT’S IT. I truly did most the parenting. I don’t know if she and I will ever get back to a good place.

.

Daughters. They are just a huge pile of work are they not?  I too was the absolute disciplinarian, rule maker and enforcer. I can honestly say that my H had a very hard time with disciplining his own daughters and there was more than 1 issue over it.  His face would actually pale if I told him that he better "lay down the law" with one of them. I had to tell him what to say ! And frequently said " use your big man voice".  Rarely, if ever, was he able to do that. Used to make me furious .  So yes, he was never really the "bad guy" and I had full responsibility of 5 of them. No easy task , I can assure you.  They do think differently about him than me, but the ones that have their own kids certainly understand me much better . And they sure respect me as I ran a very tight ship....if I lost control of one of them it would have been mutiny .

I am sorry , that on top of all of it , you have to deal with a daughter that is creating more issues. How needs more issues at this point?   I would just let her be . More detachment if you will . She is young and has no real life-clue...yet.  Back to focusing on only you .

If I may , the fact that you have cleaned out your phone of pictures , messages etc is a good step. However, that you sent him "pictures that would mean something to him" is STILL  a form of pursuing. You need to go totally 100% absolute zero contact . Nothing. Zip. Black.  Once he moved his OW in, the game changes .  I believe you contacted him last week also...to ask him about where a picture was taken ? Your daughter could just as easily done that Torn. Are you trying to "remind " him of days gone by?.  It will not work ..at all and it is a form of manipulation in truth.  Zero contact means exactly that . Just saying...

You do not need to put on a brave tough front here Torn. Troubles with your daughter is hurtful and concerning and I do not believe you when you say "shrug it off".  Thats not at all how you feel is it? You really do have a lot on your emotional plate ...its ok to just be hurt . I would be and as a mom, I know you are not just going to forget about it or her ..we are not wired at all like that.  Its OK to just be Torn.

[MadLuv]

Thank you all- when I say brush it off I meant let the argument go. Not brush her off. It is how I have to deal with her as she does not ever see her fault. I did send her a message that I would not allow her to disrespect me. She speaks to me like a child that is being scolded. In therapy I am being told to start putting me first and not be a door mat.

My XH did ask for videos and pictures. I decided as a step to move forward I would delete all pictures and videos of him from my phone, so I sent them to him as asked. I dont feel I should be the keeper of all the memories. He has the right to have pictures if he asks. Manipulation? Is that? Maybe I dont know how. I hate to think I am manipulating anyone. Ouch

You are right on asking him where the picture was taken. Sometimes it is habit. Not any reminder of the past. The picture was found while pulling the printed photos he asked for, so I think that is why I asked him. The conversation was open on him asking for the photos. I am trying very hard to wrap things up, so I can move on. I do need to cut off all communications. S28 accident opened the door and that was a mistake. I think for me my kids are grown, but still OUR kids. It is very hard not to discuss them with him when things come up. WE are their parents. If they were small that would not be questioned, but for me kids are kids. I know I need to get past that. They are a shared thing that I cant disconnect.

I have stated many times I get up and then down. I never try to hide that. That is why I journal so much. As stated I get to a place where I think ok…I’m doing better and then whammmm. I don't try to put up a front. I do feel better and then I don't. I am fully aware of my roller coaster ride. If I was just dealing with him I would not feel so beaten up.

As far as the kids. Where I feel blame on him is he is not here. They are stressed and I am getting those ramifications. It is a ripple affect of the destruction left behind, so do I blame him? Yep!!!  Plain and simple. I do

I have taken big steps this week. Deleting photos, videos and just trying to cut all ties. I am struggling. He just moved in with OW. On anniversary of leaving and right before holidays. It’s been a lot. I can only do my best. I will say I am sleeping better and I don’t think about what he is doing with her. I do miss our friendship and I think that is where I struggle with the cut off as he is open to a friendship and I know that. I am the one saying we cant be friends and I know we arent. It is just hard as everyone knows

I am the sole parent that is there no matter what. Yet, he hears nothing from them on their distress and I think because he is not here they don't want to push him away. I think sometimes I just must be feeling sorry for myself. I have been through a lot in my life and this one person who knew all that is causing me more. Im trying desperately to find my way of disconnect. I wish he would change his number to make it easier on me. Believe me I have asked and he refused. He said I am not going to change my number or block you. It’s not his job to give me the will power and strength, but it would be easier for me. Not going to lie.

NAS-having lost both parents to cancer, my own daughter and I have reoccurring  thyroid cancer it does bring things into perspective. I can not imagine what you go through handling this on your own. Sometimes it is helpful to stop feeling sorry for ourselves and see things can be worse. That is how I got through my own D14 death. You are amazing for all you have been through.

[UrsaMajor]

NOW you need a new thread.....

[Treasur]

The issue of photos is an interesting one.
I wrestled with it for quite a while bc my former h left with virtually nothing from his old life. And tbh that made me feel as if he had never valued a single moment of it which hurt too. But that was hard to believe bc it hadn’t felt like that at the time. And I resented having to be the tidy up person for everything bc my h just skipped off to his new life, or so it seemed.  and I was grieving so it hurt to look at these mementoes, hurt to throw them away, hurt to live with them.
Tbh, everything just hurt.
I did not know what to do.
So I decided to do nothing until I felt that I could act ‘cleanly’, no agenda or emotional goal or assumptions.
Which surprisingly took about three years.  and then, when I was in that mindset, I realised that it was no longer important enough to me that it was worth cranking the contact door open even a bit. It just mattered much less what I thought he might think or want or should think or want. It was easier to pick what I wanted to keep and throw the rest away. Never thought I would get there, but I did 

Plus if my xh did that, it is reasonable to assume that it was bc he wanted to....for whatever reason, it worked for him to leave it all behind....it self-evidently did not carry the value it did for me, if it had he would have chosen differently, right? And he had YEARS to do so lol.  It just wasn’t my job to mind read and seemed most sane to take the behaviour at face value. And it seemed rather arrogant to think I knew better than he did what he wanted or should feel. If that turned out to be a choice he later regretted, if he came to feel he had erased important bits of his own life history, that was his life lesson and consequence not mine. Not one I would have made, true, but it wasn’t my choice or responsibility. And perhaps there is something rather uncomfortable about keeping mementoes of a metaphorical house you burned to the ground lol.

Now I see these things as solely mine, as mementos of my own history, along with photos from my parents. His loss perhaps, idk, he’ll just have to live with the twenty year gap I guess  no idea if he gives it a moments thought, of course. Still, not my circus.
But it took three years of choosing NOT to act on my own impulses....
Funny how informative NOT acting can be.....it’s just a quieter voice that you have to let come to you, that’s all. And you need to give yourself time, Tornup.

[Thunder]

New thread:  https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11864.0