[JohnnyBravo]

Previous thread:
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11822.0

Wow, my first second thread...

[Standing Strong]

Congrats JB 
It goes by fast doesn't it?

Attaching 

-SS

[HeavenlyFocus]

I’m following too JB.

HF

[Thunder]

Stringing along...

[MadLuv]

Attaching for your continued story 🙂

[Curiosity]

Following along…

[JohnnyBravo]

N00b question: Does attaching actually do anything? I still see update notices on threads I haven't commented on. (I do appreciate all of the people who are interested, though. I do follow a lot of other threads here, but generally feel I don't have too much to contribute yet.)

On the legal front, I did get a mid-month invoice from the lawyer (which seems odd) for ten minutes of assistant time to discuss "status of case and next steps." But if it were anything big, I suppose I would have heard something. I assume we have some kind of waiting period in this state, so at this point I don't think things will be wrapped up before the holidays. So there, rushing W.

[Nas]

N00b question: Does attaching actually do anything? I still see update notices on threads I haven't commented on. (I do appreciate all of the people who are interested, though. I do follow a lot of other threads here, but generally feel I don't have too much to contribute yet.)

On the legal front, I did get a mid-month invoice from the lawyer (which seems odd) for ten minutes of assistant time to discuss "status of case and next steps." But if it were anything big, I suppose I would have heard something. I assume we have some kind of waiting period in this state, so at this point I don't think things will be wrapped up before the holidays. So there, rushing W.

My lawyer once didn’t answer my emails for a couple of weeks and then on the itemized bill there was a huge charge for reading my emails. 🙄🙄🙄

Attaching to a thread sends an email notification when there’s a new post. You can also just hit the “notify” button which does the same thing. Sometimes I find that that’s better because especially for newbies or hot discussion topic threads, sometimes the first one or two full pages of s thread can just be filled with comments that simply say “attaching.”

[UrsaMajor]

N00b question: Does attaching actually do anything? I still see update notices on threads I haven't commented on. (I do appreciate all of the people who are interested, though. I do follow a lot of other threads here, but generally feel I don't have too much to contribute yet.)

By replying to a post (even putting the single word "attaching")  you will find the posts then later whenever someone posts to that thread under the "New Replies to my posts" link on the left side under the Hello <Username> .  there is a link for ALL unread posts since the last time you logged in and a link for those that you have actually commented on (this assumes that, since you commented, you are interested).

The "Notify" button (as Nas pointed out) at the bottom of the page, triggers a rule that sends an e-mail to you whenever a specific thread is updated. I'd advise to use this with caution as, if you "Notify" from many different threads, you may end up getting LOTS of e-mails, especially if the thread is popular.  You probably want to trigger the Notify on your own thread so you know when people reply to you (for example).

UM

[JohnnyBravo]

Interesting, W texted me today asking me to look for her birth certificate, and then a few minutes later that she found it. Not sure if I should just ignore this, or reply with a thumbs up as a "smart contact."

I can't imagine what she'd need it for, but then again she may want me to wonder that. (I don't think I've ever needed mine.)

[UrsaMajor]

Interesting, W texted me today asking me to look for her birth certificate, and then a few minutes later that she found it. Not sure if I should just ignore this, or reply with a thumbs up as a "smart contact."

I can't imagine what she'd need it for, but then again she may want me to wonder that. (I don't think I've ever needed mine.)

Rule of 3's

Someone is dying/bleeding, etc. - Respond in 3 minutes
Critical stuff regarding kids - 3 hours
Routine legal/school or other stuff regarding kids, finances, etc., - 3 days
Idle chatter - 3 months

"Can you looks for my birth certificate" falls into the lower categories... Are you her secretary?
"Oh I found it" falls into the "no need to respond at all" category.... 

[JohnnyBravo]

Just saw your "rule of threes" post on pacman's thread too. Thanks! (I thumbs upped yesterday anyway, don't meme beat me!)

[UrsaMajor]

Just saw your "rule of threes" post on pacman's thread too. Thanks! (I thumbs upped yesterday anyway, don't meme beat me!)

You KNOW I can't let that one go by....

[JohnnyBravo]

If I had Photoshop skills, I'd remake an MC Hammer album cover into "Please Ursa Don't Meme 'em!"

[JohnnyBravo]

Random note: People have posted here about the Love Languages book. I was cleaning out old emails today, and found one from W in 2014 where she took the Love Language quiz and said we should know this about each other. I took it as well. We were both "Quality Time!" Maybe that's why we travel well together. Her second was Words of Affirmation, and my second was Acts of Service. I completely forgot about that, and wish I had written it down somewhere. Funny how we had made that effort and fell away from it. With any luck, we'll get to use it again in the future.

She also had sent an email that year apologizing for how messed up her family is. (I remember the specific incident that this refers to.) I always took her family's behavior in stride and tried to be supportive, since I knew it wasn't her fault.

Makes me sad to remember that she really did put effort into our relationship. It's a good reminder that work has to be continuous.

JB

[HeavenlyFocus]

She also had sent an email that year apologizing for how messed up her family is. (I remember the specific incident that this refers to.) I always took her family's behavior in stride and tried to be supportive, since I knew it wasn't her fault.

Makes me sad to remember that she really did put effort into our relationship. It's a good reminder that work has to be continuous.

JB

I feel the same way JB.  My W was truly a lovely person who persevered through her own difficult life circumstances.   I still have compassion for her while still knowing I need to detach to let her figure things out.   

HF

[JohnnyBravo]

MONKEYBRAIIIIIIIIIIN!!!!!

I was headed to work this morning and an Uber passed me going into the neighborhood. That's about the right time for W to go to the airport and go to her hometown for Halloween. I wonder if those were the detailed plans she posted to FB last week. At least she'd be spending Halloween with her friends rather than going out by herself here. Heck, she may be looking for a place to live there, too. It's a bummer, but she'd eventually figure out that she was miserable there when we left because her friends wouldn't arrange activities with her.

The other downside is this may energize her to go back to the lawyer when she gets back. That seemed to coincide before.

Interestingly, RCR sent out an email update today that MLC limerance can be with an idea instead of a person. That would certainly fit this whole thing.

Oh well, onward we go.

JB

[marvin4242]

Well I am sorry you had that moment, but its great you notice them when they come. I had a lot of those, took a while to train myself to just turn away and stop thinking about any of it.

Keep doing your thing, time helps.

[JohnnyBravo]

Thanks, Marvin. Even though I recognize these situations as beyond my control, I'm still a ways from detaching/accepting them. The emotional hit isn't as strong as it once was, but is definitely there and lingers. Even though I know it does me no good to be anxious, or to know or think about what's going on, I still feel those things pretty strongly.

[marvin4242]

And they will be for a while, do not beat yourself up if you are. Just observe it, note it, feel it, and remind yourself this is normal. It is normal when we are hit by an emotional truck. I will tell you that even five years out my wife texted something that has me monkey braining a little bit. So its not just you.

[JohnnyBravo]

Boy, this afternoon went downhill in the emotional sense. Good cry on the way home and a little bit after, around missing her so much, and wondering how she could do this. (I know the answer to part 2.) And this isn't even a real holiday! I think it's assuming W is in her home town partying with friends, and the enabler, having a good time. Even if she's really running from depression.

At least I'm having lunch with a friend tomorrow, I've got my "music gig" on Saturday, and I have to get ready for my vacation ride. Traveling without W is going to be tough.

Also watching RCR's Q&A video. It's good and bad; she's so supportive, but it sucks to hear what people are going through. Sometimes I wonder if I'm spending too much time looking at this stuff. I'm not sure if it's making me more depressed, or giving me false hope.

Got an email that insurance paid out on Tuesday, which seems to be W's doctor day. Hopefully it's just menopause stuff (vs. UTI or STD stuff). That was also our anniversary. It really didn't feel like an outstanding day, maybe because the holidays are coming up. I went out for a quick dinner, but didn't really do anything else. On the plus side, we're still married (legally) at the five-year mark.

I guess I'll find out tomorrow or Monday if my lawyer has spent more time on this. But, if anything big had happened, I assume they would have called.

Thanks, all.

[Imgood]

Hang in there JB, you got this! I hope you enjoyed lunch with your friend today and have a great music “gig” on Saturday! Take it one day at a time!

[JohnnyBravo]

Saw this in today's Sunday funnies. If I could invent the LBS monkey-brain vacuum, I'd be a gazillionaire.

And still monkey-brain.



JB

[Nas]

How was the gig 🎶 JB? 

I know it’s hard, but try not to think the worst. People go to the doctor for a million different reasons, especially at our age
Is there a way you can stop getting any notifications when insurance covers something for her?

[JohnnyBravo]

Thanks, Nas. I wrote my thoughts out to a friend of mine here, and seeing it in print made me realize I was a bit overboard. I still want a brain vacuum, though! (I thought that was pretty funny.)

I'm better with the insurance notifications now than I was when this all started. At least I know W is going to a doctor. And even though she likely wouldn't admit it or see it that way right now, there's a subconscious connection and benefit to her there. Funny thing is, I tried to get her to at least get a physical for several years, but she'd never go. "We have good insurance, I'm paying into it, use it!"

I think our gig went pretty well yesterday. It was a little awkward because the drums were set up for the kids, and I didn't have time to make too many adjustments. I dropped a stick once, which I've done a lot at home but never in the group; fortunately I caught it before it rolled off the snare, and I only lost one hit. Recovery is good practice. A friend of mine from work came, and she thought we sounded good. Although, I think we need to slow down the James Brown a bit. The other songs are pretty slow, so maybe we're over-compensating.

Hope you all are well,

JB

[Nas]

That’s great, writing it out can sometimes help you release it and/or gain a new perspective.
There is a benefit to her right now of having access to insurance (that’s a massive benefit but you’re right that she’s likely not seeing it) but the more important thing is what’s the benefit to you of knowing if or when she uses it. Just something to think about.

The music sounds fun!

[JohnnyBravo]

I'm still on my motorcycle trip.  Had dinner in a ghost town steakhouse tonight and heard an inspiring story told at one of the other tables:

Someone had an uncle George and aunt Josephine, who were both loved by the family.  They befriended someone named Del. I'm guessing this was in the '80s. Unfortunately,  Josephine became enamored of Del, and divorced George to marry Del. George never stopped loving Josephine. Every year on their wedding anniversary,  George would call Josephine, say "Happy anniversary, babe!" and hang up. Eventually after some years, Del died, and George and Josephine wound up together again.

W and I used to call each other "babe" as well, although with caller ID on cell phones, I don't think the anniversary calls would work the same these days!  I just found this to be a nice story.

Cheers, all!

[marvin4242]

JB I am curious why you found this to be a nice story? To me it sounded like a bit of a strange story. Thoughts that came up for me were what kind of relationship did George and Josephine had that it could be discarded just because someone else happened to come by. Why did George keep calling someone who clearly devalued him and his love through actions (and I assume words ) to say happy anniversary? Sounds like a form of passive aggressive intrusion and can’t imagine it was welcomed and appreciated.

It also surprises me that then later once Del died George was happy to be a fallback, a second choice. What did he do with those precious years of his life besides waiting to wish happy anniversary for something that no longer required one? And does this mean Josephine could simply be with whoever happens to be the “best” choice at the moment? Seems precarious.

My point is we all live with this kind of stories that we are told. Whether this is an unexamined notion of “romantic love,” heroic stories about suffering in waiting, or as in the movies the grand reunion that just simply happens without any consequences or years of hard work. I am not saying that it’s not possible for people to end up back together, but I fear it is sometimes oversimplified into this kind of story.

[Nas]

I had so many questions about this story but my thoughts were along the same lines as Marvin. Why would George call every year  - and then to just say 3 words and hang up before the person on the other end could say anything? Borderline stalking imo.

(The whole story sent me off in the direction of an episode of Dateline. I had a little fun filling in the backstories and in my version Del died under mysterious circumstances, but whether Josephine or George is the culprit has yet to be discovered… 😉)

Hope you’re enjoying your trip, it sounds super interesting. What kind of motorcycle are you on?

[xyzcf]

I am glad that you are having a good motorcycle trip. Enjoy!

Posting the story you heard about George and Josephine, something that you heard in your travels was perfectly fine.

There are actually quite a few threads that people have contributed to over time posting such stories. I still appreciate hearing of couples who found one another again even years later.

I am not sure why this is being "analyzed" as to your motives for posting it.

Here are the links to several other reconnection/reconciliation stories in case you have not seen them before.


http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=237.0


http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1756.0

https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=5763.60

Links to reconnection stories:

https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1872.0

[marvin4242]

I am glad that you are having a good motorcycle trip. Enjoy!

Posting the story you heard about George and Josephine, something that you heard in your travels was perfectly fine.

There are actually quite a few threads that people have contributed to over time posting such stories. I still appreciate hearing of couples who found one another again even years later.

I am not sure why this is being "analyzed" as to your motives for posting it.

xyzcf: I am posting because I would like to share any advice or thoughts that will help JB make healthy and productive decisions for himself. This means not just feeding him dogma or fake stories of reconciliation. As I have said before in my opinion whether people decide to stand or not is personal and there is no correct answer, AS LONG AS they do it with eyes wide open and not from a place of denial of reality or their own emotional needs.

The story he relayed smacks of that exact kind of false hope and outright Disney like fake happy ending. And honestly I am not sure why you are questioning other people motives for posting. Is it really appropriate?

[MadLuv]

 xyzcf- I am not standing, but it is still nice to hear and read and my thoughts could change at any point as my emotions and views are constantly changing. If a connection story gives you hope that it can happen and that’s what you need to stand, yes take what you need from it as long as it is healthy for YOU!

All outside views are slightly tainted in each persons pain and journey and I think you would get and do get a different response from those that have reconnected or not. I get a lot of behind the scenes messages of hope from couples that are back together and can see similarities in my story. So, did that give me hope? Sure. As my story progresses and time moves on I can see things more clearly for myself and what I need, but I do understand those who did not make it thinking it is detrimental. Yet, all points of views help to keep you in check, right?? So, I appreciate every view.  It may or may not be your story. So just KNOW that!!

[Nas]

And honestly I am not sure why you are questioning other people motives for posting. Is it really appropriate?

Thank you for mentioning this Marvin, because quite honestly, this bit where every single person on this forum posts their opinions and advice, but certain people are singled out and repeatedly (and not very kindly) called "armchair analysts" is getting very old and stale.

JB, sorry for the hijack. I hope you got the true sentiment of the posts about your story. Marvin just expanded on his thoughts in his last post, and for my part, I was agreeing - because it is helpful to note that the story lacks some VERY key elements that would make a healthy reconciliation possible: healthy boundaries, healthy communication, respect for others, respect for self - but I was also just having some fun with it. Because sometimes we just need a bit of levity.

[Standing Strong]

Maybe I'm missing something.... the story could be good or bad. There's a lack of context, so the person has to fill in the blanks themselves.

Interesting how some can see it has bad or questionable, and others think there's beauty in it.
Like torn was saying, perceptions skew how we see the story.

A little funny..... and there's no reason to attack each other.... HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

If yellow is one perspective, and blue is the opposite perspective, then green is the middle. Let's meet at green 

To me, JB's story is encouraging but with caution. I don't see a stalker in the H, I see someone who didn't let his love die, and he reminded her (in a bit of a strange way, but really it could be so much stranger.... like stalking for real).
They got back together, so was something there the whole time? Who knows?
What was her motivation? We don't know. It would be nice to think her love returned and they lived happily ever after. Storybook ending. Could be she just have needs that someone had to provide? It's just as possible.

Fill in the blank based on your own experience, but that doesn't mean it's what's actually happening in the story. Have to always leave that open as a possibility.
A little funny to me. HA!!

-SS

[MadLuv]

I think every view or comment is a questioning of how people are handling the situation based on each commenters experience. If you known that then you can take it as that. Just another view. Some things are harsh, but all meant with a good intent. I have felt slightly insulted at times and had to read again to see it differently.

I do know in reading stories from the past/ beginning of this site I see things that were posted that were more supported in those stories that were similar to what I posted in my journey that got completely different responses. The site changed  from supporting reconciliation to supporting healing and growth and to move on while standing and if they come back then decide. So maybe those who have been around for decade or more are more in the original mindset, understandingly.

I just know I appreciate it all. I’m not oblivious to my thoughts and mind could change always. That is part of the situation we have been put in. All a big mind F’ery to be honest. With time we surely all get to a better place no matter the outcome. That is my HO, but my mind is still in the earlier stage, so I may be completely off..hehee

[xyzcf]

This means not just feeding him dogma or fake stories of reconciliation.
The story he relayed smacks of that exact kind of false hope and outright Disney like fake happy ending.

I have a difference of opinion and do not see stories of reconciliation as "fake" or "false hope" or "Disney like fake happy endings".

Johnny wrote about something that was significant to him. There was nothing wrong with his posting this story on HS. I added my view that I still like to hear stories of reconciliation.

I believe that we support one another and not "tell them" what they have to do .....some people who are standing for their marriages or are not quite sure will benefit from the true stories that have been posted of people who reconcile. It might allow them to have hope for their own situation and that is not detrimental to their healing in my point of view.

Newbies especially should be supported and I don't think questioning them about why they posted such a story and expressing "once Del died George was happy to be a fallback, a second choice. " infers that somehow, reconciliation means that we are less than, a second choice as you said.

With spouses who do return after MLC, I do not see this as the LBSer being the "second choice".

Johnny posted a story that had some meaning to him. I was glad he posted it.

[MadLuv]

Ss- totally agree. There is a lot lacking. Just a shared story that fell in JB lap that he is sharing with what he knows of it
Xyzcf-yes, I think a spouse that returns means that it was meant to be and they realized the grass was not greener. No one would be here if we at some point didn’t want that ending. Am I right?? If life was a fairytale none of this would have happened in the first place. We are here because we live in reality. IMHO those here are very strong people who can handle all views, because this site is filled with survivors.

[Nas]

Ss- totally agree
Xyzcf-yes, I think a spouse that returns means that it was meant to be and they realized the grass was not greener.

SS, I didn't see any attacking going on. Everyone's voice has a place here. We are all human beings who are prone to disagree, ask questions, present alternative views, and imo it's important that we allow for that and not dismiss or invalidate anyone else's view.

Torn, I think to me, what was being brought out in comments was that the story did not depict a "grass was not greener" story (though I would argue that even then, there is so much that is needed for reconciliation beyond just "I realized the grass wasn't greener" - Acorn's thread is a great depiction of the kind of deep introspective analysis an MLCer needs to do to get to a point of true reconciliation.)

JB, again, sorry for the hijack. I think it's producing a useful discussion though of what it means to truly be in relationship with another person. In no scenario does a person who just "changes their mind" represent a healthy, whole individual capable of a deep, intimate relationship with another. Love is not all you need, no matter what the Beatles or whoever said.

As we always say, per Acorn's famous "sample of one" sign off, people are sharing their individual thoughts. No one is saying don't have hope. I would say the comments specifically were about that one story that was shared, and if anyone read that as "don't have hope," it's likely a bit of projection, because it wasn't said or implied. It is simply a case where the story that was shared is being used as a jumping off point to say that reconnection and/or reconciliation requires more than just a combination of "I will always love you and will call you every year to express that love, whether it's welcome by you or not" and "Welp...my AP died, guess I'll go home."  (AGAIN, specific to this ONE story.)

Honestly, it begs a lot of questions that are enormously useful for people, especially newbies, to contemplate.  To name just a few: what is a person's definition of "love," what does it mean to have healthy boundaries, doesn't everyone deserve to have their needs met and not "love" at the expense of those needs, what does it mean to detach and let go (and is that at odds with things like annual hang up phone calls - and to be clear, it's much more the hanging up immediately part that tips that into "problematic" in my opinion - my opinion, which is as valid as anyone else's, fwiw)...

Anyway, just my follow up thoughts on this. JB, again, hope this isn't too much of a hijack, but I also hope people take away some interesting food for thought from it.

[marvin4242]

This means not just feeding him dogma or fake stories of reconciliation.
The story he relayed smacks of that exact kind of false hope and outright Disney like fake happy ending.

I have a difference of opinion and do not see stories of reconciliation as "fake" or "false hope" or "Disney like fake happy endings".

Johnny wrote about something that was significant to him. There was nothing wrong with his posting this story on HS. I added my view that I still like to hear stories of reconciliation.

I believe that we support one another and not "tell them" what they have to do .....some people who are standing for their marriages or are not quite sure will benefit from the true stories that have been posted of people who reconcile. It might allow them to have hope for their own situation and that is not detrimental to their healing in my point of view.

Newbies especially should be supported and I don't think questioning them about why they posted such a story and expressing "once Del died George was happy to be a fallback, a second choice. " infers that somehow, reconciliation means that we are less than, a second choice as you said.

With spouses who do return after MLC, I do not see this as the LBSer being the "second choice".

Johnny posted a story that had some meaning to him. I was glad he posted it.

xyzcf I want to clarify that I have absolutely no disagreement with what you wrote above. I was not questioning him, if you think I was that is your interpretation. Please go back and read what I wrote again, I stated that the story as relayed is simplistic, doesn't have any context and has a bunch of implications. I also do not see it as a story of reconciliation. We have a few active members who are kind enough to share what is going on in a true reconciliation, and it surely is not as simply as "and then OM died and spouse came back and everyone was happy." It is the total opposite. I in no way view their stories, struggles, hard work, hope and deep effort as "Disney like." They are living hard complex real lives, working and constantly looking at their own needs. And it doesn't seem looking in from outside like its easy.

For us to propagate a simplistic idea of reconciliation is a disservice to newbies and vets alike. In a case where an MLCer manages to do hard work to heal themselves, then actively DECIDES to return to their spouse, and puts in years of hard work then no this is not a case of "second choice." But a lot of MLCers DO "return" when their primary choice falls apart, and there are enough stories of hopeful LBSers suffering from not holding their boundaries all due to hopium. In a lot of cases we the LBS is nothing more than a prop or object to the MLCer still in emotional distress, and they will use everyone including their spouses as exactly as that. In that case we are much worse than a "second choice."

I for one would like to differentiate between the stories of real return earned, from hopium and stories of "my friends brothers cousin's wife came across a unicorn and saw the light of the day." Yes I am being a little silly with that one.

[MadLuv]

Nas- I agree as well. The story was as I stated just thrown into JB lap and he shared. Not much detail and so it cant be evaluated, but still interesting for what its worth. Of course reconciliation is more than the grass is greener. Some times I just simplify and assume I dont have to spell it all out. We all have or are living it right? It can get to be a pick apart of thoughts and words at some point. Obviously, we didnt get here due to just the grass turning brown and it will take more than a little water to turn it greener. FOR SURE!! Non debatable there!!

[Thunder]

"The story was as I stated just thrown into JB lap and he shared. Not much detail and so it can't be evaluated, but still interesting for what its worth."

I have to agree with you Torn.  No one knows what happened in the middle.

[JohnnyBravo]

Good grief, I wasn't expecting a sort of Spanish Inquisition....

I'm standing. I find it helpful/inspirational to hear other stories of reconciliation. This guy was telling his friends a story over dinner (relevant because Del and Josephine owned a restaurant). Did the guy reveal all of the details? Certainly not. Did the guy even know the details? Who knows. I'm looking at the positive aspects, not the negatives.. It's interesting that people assume that George and Josephine just hooked back up without any work. We don't know that they did or didn't. If my W's sister dies, or the town she wants to move to blows up, burns down, or gets overrun by rats, I'm not expecting that I'll open the door, W will move back in, and it will be like old times. It's just nice to know that the return rate for whatever situation isn't flat-out zero.

As for George's phone calls, if they actually happened that way, would it be weird? Absolutely. Let he or she on HS who is without misstep or personal issue cast the first desperate text message.

Lastly, I'm riding a 2012 Yamaha Super Tenere. ANYBODY GOTTA PROBLEM WITH THAT?! 

(I'd rant more, but I'm on my phone.)

JB

[MadLuv]

Hey, I hear ya!! I am a once married gal. I am not standing at this time. Can that change?? Possibly. Believe me nothing would be better than to have my family back together, but sometimes the damage gets or seems to immense . What  I do know if it was to come back together it would taken years from him not with OW to open that door, so I appreciated the story. Romantic at heart.

[JohnnyBravo]

Well, I made it home yesterday. Saw some neat stuff, and one of the hotels I stayed in was a mid-century spot that must have been the shiz in its heyday. Pool and spa (now filled in and bricked over), restaurant with big patio (closed, presumably due to pandemic), and a basement lounge (appeared  to be closed for a loooooong time; I should have asked if I could get a look inside.). It's called The Drifter, which is an apt description for many of the guests.

I wish I had spent a little more time getting familiar with the bike before taking the trip, but was too preoccupied with LBS-land. I needed to get a new battery along the way (worked OK in the summer, but not at the freezing morning mountain temperatures I was in), but it was easier to change on this bike than any of the others I've owned. Except for the five different accessories the previous owner stacked up on the terminals, none with the correct ring size for the terminal screws. I guess I'll be cleaning THAT up over the winter...

The first couple of days were tough, since this was just the kind of trip that W and I would have taken. But, I eventually settled into the travel routine. Coming home to an empty house was a bit sad as well, but I had plenty to do in finishing the weekend. Put all of my stuff away, closed the pool, and made some krupnik (Polish honey liqueur) for Christmas presents.

Back to work tomorrow...

Cheers, all!

JB

[HeavenlyFocus]

Glad you had a great trip JB and I'm still not used to coming home to an empty place either.   Things seem to get easier with each day so all we can do is move forward.   Have a great week at work as you get settled back into the grind.

HF

[JohnnyBravo]

Thank you, HF.

For everybody, I saw this on FB and it seemed to be an appropriate description of detached communication with MLCers...

[xyzcf]

 

[Standing Strong]

Glad you had a great trip JB 

It's so good to get out there. Super healthy!!

-SS

[JohnnyBravo]

Well! haven't written about myself in a while; I've been busy with projects.

Friends from work invited me (and another separated co-worker of mine) over for Thanksgiving dinner with some of their family. A huge amount of super-tasty food. They invited us to stay after the family left and watch football, but dinner was enough growth for one holiday. (It would have actually been easier to just hang out at home and work on projects, because that would be just another day, rather than a special holiday.) The day before was also W's birthday, so a lot going on mentally.

Got a text from W the other night asking if I remembered the code for her sister's garage door opener. (She moved in with her sister, a mile or less away in our neighborhood.) I was eating dinner so I let it be. Then I get a phone call and voicemail which I check in a few minutes after I'm done eating. Turns out W is somehow locked out of her sister's house and her sister won't be home for an hour. I can't even fathom how this would happen, unless she few out of town the previous weekend, didn't bring her keys, and Ubered home from the airport. Otherwise, she could have waited in her car or driven somewhere to wait. Anyway, I text her that I don't remember, but gave her a few numbers to try that I would have used. (I'm not sure I did ever reprogram it after SIL bought the house.) I did get a "thank you" back.

Before y'all get bent out of shape, I have a note from one of RCR's classes that suggests that standers need to show some foundation for trust or receptiveness to the MLCer early on. So there it is. No other comments or questions to her, just the answer. Heck, I'm pretty sure I still have the opener programmed into my car, so if I was really feeling white-knightish I could have done a drive-by and opened it. But I didn't.

Then had a dream about W this morning. I forget the circumstances of why I saw her, but the notable part was that she had gotten breast implants. But, her boobs were stacked vertically instead of horizontally. Talk about bad decisions!

I was straightening out a power cord in the corner of the bedroom where W kept her jewelry, and found two of her necklaces sort of hidden in the carpet. They were two of her favorites (and one was a gift from a friend), so I'll have to figure out what to do with them.

Lastly, I've decided to build a Festivus Pole for the living room, since I won't invest in an artificial tree. I can't just put the trains in the corner without some warning that they're there.

Cheers,

JB

[MadLuv]

What’s an hour?? i would have let he wait. i do get what you are saying on RCR and letting them know or being kind “enough” for a return basically. I think RCR also wrote that she did all the begging Nd pleading at first and was there for a while giving all the reassurance, but once you have done enough they know and you can step back. That is the time to stop so eagerly responding. That will be how they start to notice the change.

It’s such a balance isn’t it. If you want to stand. Making the foundation for return, but moving on in case they don’t for the betterment of us? It takes a while to get to understand it all.

How funny you had it programmed and could have saved the day. I would have been tempted to wait the hour and then reply and said oh, I think I have it programmed in my phone, but your sister should be home by now.  Hahahaha 

[marvin4242]

JB I personally see nothing wrong with giving her information you have. My basic thought is to remain neutral when they are not being destructive. Its a very neutral question, avoiding answering it is just as reactive as dropping everything to find the answer. I wouldn't view it thought any lens of "reconciliation" or "payback."

[xyzcf]

Marvin stated:

JB I personally see nothing wrong with giving her information you have. My basic thought is to remain neutral when they are not being destructive. Its a very neutral question, avoiding answering it is just as reactive as dropping everything to find the answer. I wouldn't view it thought any lens of "reconciliation" or "payback."

I absolutely agree.

Should we change our inner selves because they have? Or do we continue to be true to who we are?

I think it is good to think about our reasons why we answer this type of request. If it is not being done to try and "impress" or "convince" them to come home, there is nothing wrong in giving information such as you did.

I have a note from one of RCR's classes that suggests that standers need to show some foundation for trust or receptiveness to the MLCer early on. So there it is.

If you are open to reconciliation then this makes sense.

If you are done, and no longer see a marriage possible, it still isn't harmful to be civil to your spouse, unless it harms you.

I do believe that when you can have contact and that it doesn't shake you up, you are really healing and detaching. Not every MLCer will continue with contact with the LBSer so not everyone will get this opportunity to grow and heal in that you don't have the chance to see what effect if any the MLCer has on you. To be able to gauge that has been helpful to me to know that I have come a  long way from the days when I was such a mess.

[JohnnyBravo]

Thanks, all

These contacts still do get my pulse rate up, so I've got a ways to go on detaching. But, as xyzcf points out, each one of these is a chance to practice and grow.  Also, I have to live with my decisions. I'm not going to make my wife stand outside at night in 40 degree temps for an hour just to make a point. Even though we live in one of the nicer neighborhoods in town, the crazies and addicts from a nearby major intersection have been making their way up here on occasion, so there are safety concerns as well. And, what little contact I've received lately has been polite.

It's not "I've made a huge mistake, please take me back," but I'll take a small amount of polite contact over monstering any day.

Plus, there may be some degree of mirroring. Even though there's no way to know what the MLCer is thinking, I think negative intentions can only beget more of the same. If positive intentions result in a negative response from the MLC, that's on them.

In other news, if any of you are into soul music, our band coach/instructor put a couple more excellent songs in our lineup. Both sound like they're from the '60s or '70s, but were recorded in the 20teens.

Searching For A New Day by Sharon Jones and the Dap Kings. This was released in 2017, but sadly Jones died in 2016 at only 60 years old. She released her first album when she was 40.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3qsh-EPom4

A Promise Is A Promise by Lee Fields and The Expressions, released in 2019. Apparently Fields' career took a detour in the '80s due to family issues, but he pulled things together and got going again.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=396vgJq51vM

JB

[Standing Strong]

You did the right thing JB 

Kindness begets kindness. Everything you do matters, and things do come back around.
Maybe the MLC'er will remember it later, maybe not, but you'll know.... and that shows thru in yourself. 

Personally, I think the integrity and good intentions of the LBS does make a big difference, one way or another.
As long as we don't expect anything in return, and don't hurt ourselves doing it: I'm all for doing good things.

-SS

[JohnnyBravo]

Well, I managed to spin myself up a bit somehow. I talk to my stepmother and sister on the phone every weekend, and this weekend, my stepmother asked if I knew what [wife] was up to. I just said "no, I'll just let her do what she's going to do, and see if I hear anything from the lawyers." I didn't think anything of it at the time, but somehow rephrased it in my head and got myself into thinking that my wife posted some plans (again) on FB, and my stepmother is wondering if I had heard them. (Stepmom is still FB friends with my wife, but I don't think she's on there very often.) Just monkey braining a bit, and it usually goes away if I type it out and see how silly it is. Probably a bit over-sensitive with Christmas coming up. I still have no control over what she decides to do, so I can't (or try not to) concern myself with it regardless. It's been "all quiet on the legal front" for a while, too.

Had my annual Christmas party for my coworkers on Friday, and it was a good turnout. Didn't miss my wife as much as the previous party in October (we passed a big review at work), and it was more a feeling that she missed out on an opportunity to socialize. Which is on her. (OK, I could have used help with preparation and cleaning up afterwards, but got it done.) She always enjoyed hosting company, and one of her gaslighting statements at our one therapy session was that I only hosted parties for my coworkers if she twisted my arm. Which is baloney. But you probably guessed that because I said it was gaslighting.

all for now,

JB

[JohnnyBravo]

I knew I should have kept my trap shut about "all quiet on the legal front..." Just got an email from my lawyer's office, my wife's lawyers have sent over her financial documents. The latest statement is from September (so far, anyway), so it looks like it just took their office a while to put everything together. Still time for her to crash.

Season's Greetings, I guess. But it ain't over 'till it's over.

JB

[Standing Strong]

Hey JB, 

It's still early. Won't know till you know.
For all you know, it took her all those months to put something together and they had to keep poking her to get it done.
No telling what state of mind she's in.

Deep breaths. 

-SS

[Nas]

I'm sorry, JB, there's never a good time, but the holidays sure adds some extra sting.
Just remember, anything can happen in the future and this is just a legal process - a painful pain in the ass, but a legal process nonetheless. IMO, best to get the legalities settled as much as possible. Think of it as one less thing to worry about as time goes on, because the more time passes, the more financial issues can arise and the more expensive paperwork needed to sort through.  Before he vanished, it took my former H over 20 months to produce financial docs, and when he finally did, they were incomplete and a total mess [a ponzi-level attempt to cover up missing funds, multiple misdeeds (heinously unethical if not clearly illegal), changed jobs, failed "businesses," a maze of bank accounts, some cosigned with his mother or other people, and a six figures-sized mountain of accrued debt].

Think of this as protecting yourself, and her in some sense, by separating everything now so any issues that arise going forward are solely hers, as are the consequences. And as someone once said to me early on, if you reconcile, there's less mess to sort out and less to forgive on that front - if it helps at all to look at it from that perspective.
I'm sorry you're dealing with this, especially now.  I know it's terribly hard and I hope it goes as smoothly as possible.

[JohnnyBravo]

Thank you, SS and Nas.

At least this is just prep work, not the actual filing, and it could have been Wife delays or "busy lawyer" delays. Tonight was band practice night, and since that was the "imminent event" in my day, I spent time being nervous about that rather than the possible divorce, and I think that helped me ride this hit out. I assume my wife's lawyer would have told her that she sent the documentation, and I haven't received any monstering, so that's good.

I think I'm in a pretty strong financial position, but I do wonder what could arise if this dragged out. We don't have any joint accounts, and my lawyer has our physical separation date, so I believe she'd fight to "freeze" that as the moment in time for asset division. That will still hurt because I held most of the income. I just hope I can't be forced to sell the house, for whatever reason (I suppose to remove the owed portion from our debts, and then split the remainder). That's something I want to do on my own schedule. Sorry your H made all of that such a mess, Nas.

I suppose if the marriage could be "just a piece of paper," the divorce can be to.

Just as much as the holidays, I miss having her snuggled up against me in the cold weather. Even when she put her feet on me under the covers to warm them up. We also moved to this city for my new job right after we got married, so everything I've experienced here has been as "us." Restaurants, museums, trips, all of that stuff. That will take a while to move past.

Anyway, I guess tomorrow is a new day, Thank you for your support!

JB

 

[MadLuv]

I’m sure that was another kick of reality. With the silence there is a hope that maybe they are coming to their senses??? Right???  My XH left right before the holidays last year. He is actually in town traveling for work staying at a hotel. That still seems so very odd to me.

You seem to be doing so well under the circumstances. Keep doing you!!

[JohnnyBravo]

With the silence there is a hope that maybe they are coming to their senses??? Right???

Yes, I like to think that "no news is good news..." Which it is, until there's bad news. 

Thanks!

[Pacman]

Anyway, I guess tomorrow is a new day, Thank you for your support!

JB

Yes it is!!!

[marvin4242]

JB, it can be hard, specially the "first" of everything after BD. I remember I just holed up in my flat, just let myself feel whatever came up and watched TV. You just have to find what is the best way for you to get through this holidays. One thing that helped me is this: I had a tendency to just remember the "good stuff," the romantic movie version of our lives. Don't get me wrong, like you we had a great relationship and in no way did I want this to happen. But I caught myself making it too ideal. I started purposefully counterbalancing my memories: I would try to remember and write down the "less than idea" stuff too. It wasn't to diminish the relationship, but to keep me from falling into some tragic story made for TV movies. For example I noticed how much easier it was to just go pick a tree, decorations and put it up without some of my wifes "special" ideas about how to decorate! I know this is minor but it was part of the experience too.

TornUp: I will continue to be the pestering voice that keeps saying "there is no kick of reality, they are not coming to their senses, stop looking for signs." Its a trap.

[MadLuv]

Marvin- I so get it!!! That was meant to state exactly that. That is the reality check I meant. Expect the unexpected.  I also agree that you can easily get caught up with the fairy tale version of your memories and I find it helpful to balance it with more realistic memories.

[JohnnyBravo]

JB, it can be hard, specially the "first" of everything after BD. I remember I just holed up in my flat, just let myself feel whatever came up and watched TV.

I remember after my last big breakup living on the sofa, being miserable, and watching Robot Chicken. I have a hard time concentrating on TV at the moment, or there never seems to be something on that I want to watch.

I started purposefully counterbalancing my memories: I would try to remember and write down the "less than idea" stuff too. It wasn't to diminish the relationship, but to keep me from falling into some tragic story made for TV movies.

I've done some of that, but it's having a bit of the opposite effect. Many of the things I remember we had differences on were somewhat endearing. The bigger negatives were the "political" views my wife developed as she went into shadow. (I now realize the timing of that.) For those, I have more compassion for her than annoyance. There were even things that were frustrating and made me question the relationship earlier, but then I remembered that I knew all of these things in the beginning, and married my wife for who she was, not who I wanted her to be. Maybe that was growth on my part, not sure.

Maybe it's still just early for me.

Thank you,

JB

[xyzcf]

 

Many of the things I remember we had differences on were somewhat endearing. The bigger negatives were the "political" views my wife developed as she went into shadow. (I now realize the timing of that.) For those, I have more compassion for her than annoyance. There were even things that were frustrating and made me question the relationship earlier, but then I remembered that I knew all of these things in the beginning, and married my wife for who she was, not who I wanted her to be. Maybe that was growth on my part, not sure.

Maybe it's still just early for me.

Marriages/relationships have problems. Recognizing our differences makes it easier to understand when there is a situation that is less than ideal. As a couple, we work through these times and grow through them.

Our spouses changed drastically. For me, it is this change that created a situation for him that he could no longer live the life that we both had built.

I can look at our life with a great deal of joy for what was, who he was, who we were together. I am grateful for those 32 years, for as I often have said, many people do not have 32 minutes of happiness and I was fortunate to have 32 years of it.

I miss it, I miss him, I miss the life we built.

Marvin's suggestion to balance out the memories with the less than ideal moments doesn't work for me. I know he stated that he did this "not to diminish the relationship" but it feels to me like it's orchestrated to focus on the negatives before MLC happened to diminish one's pain by trying to convince yourself "that it wasn't that good anyway".

By all means explore what your marriage was accepting both the good parts and the bad as being normal in every marriage.

I find it more helpful to me, to understand that through his brokeness, the marriage doesn't exist anymore, the person he was doesn't exist anymore, his essence is gone.

Holidays are difficult. I brought traditions from my childhood and he brought some from his and we carried them forward with our daughter. Although there are new traditions, the lack of a loving family is gone.

The loss of family, traditions, the excitement of being together on those special days create a sadness in me, because this is not "as good" as the many years we shared together.

That is my honesty, my truth. Can't lie and say this is great or better or I've moved on and boy I am glad I did....but I can accept that this is reality now.

Sorry marvin...your words  "but to keep me from falling into some tragic story made for TV movies." made me cringe. My interpretation only...I just don't agree with those choice of words to describe the loss we experience when a loved one leaves us, whether by death or illness or MLC...these things do not invalidate the life we had together.

[JohnnyBravo]

Thank you, xyzcf. I know it took a lot of growth for you to get to that point of acceptance.

Marvin, I can still see the utility in what you're saying, and we all have to figure out our ways to get through this.

As much as MLCers stick to "the script," they are still individual stories. I think LBSs are the same. There is a general path to recovery, but we won't approach it all the same way.

I'm surprised at how much discussion I bring out some times, and I appreciate the involvement.

[Nas]

I think it’s good, JB, the fact that you’re open to hearing things even when you feel you’re not “there yet” yourself. Yes, it is early and you’re still maybe wearing the rose colored lbs glasses, but you’re going to be okay. I think the advice on getting through the first holidays is good. My therapist early on made similar suggestions as a mechanism for redirecting my attention to a more (choose your word) accurate/balanced/realistic view of the past, rather than focusing intently on only “the good times” that I didn’t have anymore. As was stated, it doesn’t diminish the importance of the relationship by permanently rewriting facts or focusing on negatives exclusively for the long term. It’s a deliberate exercise *in the moment* to help lessen anxiety and sadness and reduce the risk of rumination. Early on we do need to actively work on redirecting our focus in order to move forward.

I know it sounds trite but we can retrain our focus to get through difficult times. In that vein, an anecdote that may help you (or others) in the future - I unfortunately know whereof I speak: I spent last night in the hospital being monitored for something called takotsubo cardiomyopathy - it was ruled out thankfully, but it’s something I spent several weeks in hospital for a few years ago when I was still a fairly new lbs. To give you an idea why I mention this, it’s known in the literature literally as “broken heart syndrome.” 🙁(For me, it was caused by overlapping extreme stressors during chemotherapy. It can be caused by just certain meds alone or by any major stress in the absence of any medication.) I recovered fairly quickly, something I’m a little proud of because the stressors certainly didn’t go away but I was able to recover anyway. By refocusing my attention away from all the things I missed/wished I still had and all that I’d lost (which did me NO good since I was not getting it back) or “what much needed resources I would have if only my former husband hadn’t…” etcetera etcetera, I was able to instead focus on my immediate reality - what is rather than what was - and get through it. Without using those exercises to shift the focus of my memories, who knows, I may not have gotten through that the way I did. 🤷‍♀️

You’re getting lots of good advice. Some of it will help you now, some of it maybe you can keep in your pocket for later. Hang in there!

[Treasur]

I find it more helpful to me, to understand that through his brokeness, the marriage doesn't exist anymore, the person he was doesn't exist anymore

I must admit that what xyzcf wrote here was closer to my experience too. And the key to that was a kind of pulling back to the here and now - what is rather than what was, as Nas says. The good stuff and the bad stuff of Now.
I lost my parents and husband within about 6 months in different ways. Cancer, dementia and whatever it was that happened to my husband. And you don’t jump in a quick straight line to acceptance and hey ho about losing your people, well I didn’t. And reminding myself of times when my father was bossy sometimes or my mother was clingy or my husband was procrastinating did not change my reality that they were my people, my favourite people, and i loved them and missed them and liked them very much just as the marvellous imperfect people they were and felt adrift without them.
And it was true that they were gone and that what was was not where I was.

Acceptance is a word that sounds easy, but tbh I found it very up and down and often tremendously hard to do. Until, eventually, I mostly got there. Slow learner here so it took me years  And you’ll get there too, JB, in your own way and in your own time with your own perspective on what feels like a balanced picture of the relationship you had. What matters imho is to ride the pendulum until it settles in a place that feels about right in your own mind but where you know that, whatever happens in future, today is where you live if that makes sense.

[marvin4242]

JB as others have said you are getting very good advice and various different tools to try. I wasn’t directly suggesting that what worked for me would work for you, rather try different things, specially during holidays that focus on you, your needs, how you feel, and try to not “idealize” what was.

[Nas]

 And you don’t jump in a quick straight line to acceptance and hey ho about losing your people, well I didn’t. And reminding myself of times when my father was bossy sometimes or my mother was clingy or my husband was procrastinating did not change my reality that they were my people, my favourite people, and i loved them and missed them and liked them very much just as the marvellous imperfect people they were and felt adrift without them.
And it was true that they were gone and that what was was not where I was.

I just want to add a quick clarification to what I said, because I in no way think healing from the death of a parent who loved and cherished you and would never dream of deceiving or betraying you is the same as healing from the pain of a spouse who, yes, loved you, but then hideously betrayed you. I would never suggest healing from the death of a loved one by reminding yourself that they weren't perfect.  I was specifically speaking about ways my therapist suggested to me to not fall into the rumination trap of idealizing a marriage where a spouse has betrayed you. It's easy to think "they were perfect and then they were the exact opposite." It can be helpful to remember that they weren't actually perfect. You can still miss them and that's perfectly natural, but they aren't gone because they died, they're gone because they chose actions that caused damage - it helps not to create a mythology around them.
Again, JMHO. Some may agree with me, others may not.

[MadLuv]

I totally agree JB. I noticed I was remembering all the good at the beginning and as time has gone on I am seeing more the reality of the situation. The good and the bad. And… TBH on myself as well. It certainly gives you the ability to see your own flaws and mistakes.

With that said, I do think that when a person dies we tend to only remember the best about them. So, it can be easy on a spouse who leaves ( which is like a walking death to the LBS) to easily get caught in that kind set as well. I know I did ( at first )

It really does help to take off the rose colored glasses and view it all as it was.

[JohnnyBravo]

I don't know how it took me so long to come up with this, but maybe Caddyshack had the right idea: "The shortest distance between you and your spouse is a straight line... In the opposite direction, Danny."

[Treasur]

they aren't gone because they died, they're gone because they chose actions that caused damage - it helps not to create a mythology around them.

Quite so, Nas.
I really liked the person I experienced as my h and even now occasionally I might remember a moment and miss him.
But part of acceptance was also getting to a point of also accepting that my h evolved into someone who behaved as if our life, my family, our friends and me were of no value to him at all. He chose his path, whatever his reasons were,  and found it acceptable enough to him to do what he did and keep doing it. It did not hurt him enough to stop him doing things that hurt me, put simply. Even now, I find a lot of that incomprehensible but, having accepted it, it changed some parts of how I saw him and how I see him now. Crisis or no, there were things in him that I didn’t know....and now I do know, i can’t unknow.
And moving away from things that hurt me was part of healing just as JB says 

[JohnnyBravo]

Well, my sister in law's house is on the market, so my wife will be going somewhere soon. I imagine she'll have to finish the divorce soon to get money, but I'm leaving on my trip on Tuesday, and I'm not going to respond to any of that until the new year. (Despite getting that email from my lawyer's office with my wife's financial statements, I wasn't billed for any time in the two weeks after that, so they haven't done any work.) This is probably why my stepmother has been asking me if I've heard anything about my wife's plans for the past few phone calls. My stepmom didn't ask it as if she knew something, but I'm sure it's on Facebook. (I'm assuming my wife isn't staying here in town in an apartment.)

I'm not sure if I'll feel lonelier with her far away, because it almost seems like it would be worse with her "right here, but not here." I guess we'll see how that pans out. And the sooner she goes, the sooner she (possibly) realizes it's her that's the source of sadness, not the marriage or city.

It kinda hurts that I helped with the initial fixing up on that house, though.

JB

[MadLuv]

Ughhh, well I will tell you it’s a mixed bag. My XH moved to his condo a state over. In some ways its easier knowing he is not here and not with me, but now it is is definitely a distance thing. He is unraveling since he moved his OW in. He is grasping at straws. He is more detached from out kids and it is sad, but the mask is dropping and others are now seeing his depressed state.

He did tell me it is not a comfort having her there and he doesnt feel at home, but yet he continues. He did say coming to the staye we are in is the worst state he comes to now.

He is still unable tl face himself, yet sees he is no happier. Not sure how things will play out for him. I hope your W starts to see the light. Only time will tell.

[JohnnyBravo]

Thanks, Torn. I'm sure my wife is excited to be moving to wherever it is, and thinks it will solve all of her problems. (Yes, mind reading, but that seems to be a safe assumption.) It won't. She was miserable when we left her hometown, and it's her not finding happiness in herself. Maybe she needs to be on her own to see that, but like you said, only time will tell. She has zero reason to come back here, at any rate.

At least I know I should work on the "owner's manual" for the house. I've done a lot of customizing, which should be explained to any future owners. I hate to let all of that work go, but if the divorce goes through, there's no reason for me to stay in a place this big by myself. Of course there isn't much inventory available right now, but our agent knows a lot of people so she may be aware of things coming up.

I do miss driving around to look at Christmas lights with my wife. Not really up for doing that on my own right now. (nor do I think I've done it by myself before, for that matter.) In fact, since SIL had moved here, this was supposed to be our first holidays together as an extended family.

JB

[JohnnyBravo]

Well, I guess the shock wore off, as I went into a bit of a tailspin this morning. Took a walk, working on some yard things, and getting ready for my trip. I'm recovering a bit, but I do really miss her.

I watched a video on menopause that another member had found. The interesting part was that, in addition to other hormones, women also lose oxytocin, which is the "bonding" hormone (along with other mother-specific things). They get tired of taking care of the husband, etc. (Although I think my wife and I had pretty balanced responsibilities; the host in the video described a "child-like dependence" of the husband on the wife, which was certainly not our case.) Apparently many women who divorce in menopause aren't even interested in later relationships with men. Although that obviously isn't the case for everyone, like the example of Thunder's mom from way back in my thread.

Pushing forward...

JB

[JohnnyBravo]

I'm sorry, JB, there's never a good time, but the holidays sure adds some extra sting.
Just remember, anything can happen in the future and this is just a legal process…
Think of this as protecting yourself, and her in some sense, by separating everything now so any issues that arise going forward are solely hers, as are the consequences. And as someone once said to me early on, if you reconcile, there's less mess to sort out and less to forgive on that front - if it helps at all to look at it from that perspective.
I'm sorry you're dealing with this, especially now.  I know it's terribly hard and I hope it goes as smoothly as possible.

Just to put this on my own thread, my wife did file via her attorney and mine got the docs today. They won’t be working it further until the new year, but I do appreciate your support, Nas.

[JohnnyBravo]

Wife,

I miss you so much this Christmas. We should be sitting in front of the fireplace and tree right now, holding each other close. I have no idea what you're going through, but I wish you could see that everything you're doing, even divorcing and moving away, is only superficial and won't help you find happiness in yourself.

I spent plenty of my life alone before we met, but spending it with you was far better. We have grown so much over our time together. I stand for us because what I felt for you was beyond what I've ever felt for anyone else. But it is so hard not hearing anything from you. I'm afraid I'll become just a faded memory in your life.

I know how much you loved me, and I hope your prisoner still feels that love. I hope you stay safe and healthy on your journey with your sister. Maybe I actually will move on some day, but I hope you feel safe enough to reach out if you have second thoughts or remember what we had together. 

I dont want to sell the house we built together,  but there's no point in staying there by myself. It's hard to face a future without you, but I'll do my best.

Merry Christmas, and I love you,

JB

[Pacman]

JB.
1st did you send this?
If so what we're your expectations?

I'm hoping you didn't send it as it would not be received the way you thought. UNLESS  you are doing a hail Mary?

I feel your pain and angst but even in my short MLC "journey" ( and I hate that word) I have learnt that any sort of push increases the distance.

Work on you and only you.

[JohnnyBravo]

Dude, give me some credit. Only posted it here. But, thank you for speaking up.

[Pacman]

Dude, give me some credit. Only posted it here. But, thank you for speaking up.

Yeah thought so sorry for dumbass question.

[marvin4242]

JB, fwiw I wrote something when my life left (and before I figured out what was going on) and sent it to her. She subsequently admitted she never bothered to read it. Not surprised at all.

I figured you posted here instead of telling her. That’s a great way to say what you want and here people will HEAR you and understand. I for one remember feeling very similarly many times.

You have the ability right now to love and care for someone, sadly she can not.

[JohnnyBravo]

No worries, Pac. Like Marvin said, I figured at least you guys would hear and understand. There are very few personal friends who I can talk to about this. Frankly, I'm tired of hearing that I'm a "great guy and don't deserve this." I KNOW THAT, THAT'S WHY IT'S SO DANGED HARD. Besides, my wife didn't deserve to have crappy parents, or go through the hormonal whirlwind I think she's in.

Heck, in my above letter I forgot to mention that she was the inspiration for us to move to this city for a better job. Otherwise, I would have just stayed where I was. Everything I know in this town is something we discovered together, which makes it tough to experience alone. When we got in the truck and started our "journey to a new life," it felt like it was Wife, me, and Cat against the world. Sometimes, the world wins, I guess.

Thanks again for writing, guys.

[marvin4242]

JB I really have very similar experiences and feeling about my relationship, specially in the early days. I have no animosity towards my wife, I understand her issues, where they come from. I also feel empathy for her. Having said all that it took a while to reclaim the things that were "ours" to being "mine" and I always try to keep a line between what is hers (her actions, her consequences, not my monkey) and what is mine (moving forward, having a life, grieving, accepting).

So please always share with us, we get it. We won't say the things others say when they don't understand.

[Treasur]

Ditto, JB.
Smart of you to get it out here.
I think I must have had hundreds of conversations in my head with my then h over the first couple of years bc I just had so much to say with no place for it to go. My head was full to overflowing with words....angry words, sad words, questions, bewilderment. I also brought some of them here to HS friends bc it gave them a safe place to be aired without RL consequences which released the build up of noise in my head. As my gran used to say, some things are better out than in 

[Pacman]

JB . I get it. I have so wanted to do the same thing. In fact I did write her a letter in the early stages and got a 10 page letter back 2 weeks later stating all sorts of excuses. I then realised it was pointless trying to reason so I read it once and burnt it.

That's why I come here just like you to write out my thoughts and then put them to bed. People here get it. Friends don't.

We are all in the same boat just on different floors.

Wish you the best and glad to see you staying strong for yourself.

[Rayd8me]

Happy Holidays JB! I commend you on your letter as it makes sense. By composing it, you opened your wounds in your heart and released your emotions, desires, wishes, etc and by sharing it with us, you released that part of your heart with a closure, a compartmentalized area that we, as your sorority listened, and compared to our letters or our thoughts of our own MLC situation. Very brave, bravo!
The irony of this situation is that we have been dealt with an unexpected LOSS of our marriage, with ambiguity, confusion and no closure.  It hurts, And yet, to heal we need closure. But we don’t want total closure, because in our hearts, we wish or want or are  standing for our troubled spouse and hope one day, we will reunite. Every day, I examine pieces of the mental puzzle of my MLC spouse and our marriage, woulda, shoulda, coulda ...the fact is,
HE CHANGED.  HE MADE A CHOICE. Yes, he’s sick, he had childhood trauma, he’s left women before, blah blah ...but we had a good run as spouses, our love was real.
Enough excuses....we as LBS are needing closure, answers to the ambiguous puzzle so we can KNOW, or be satisfied with the answers and move on to HEAL. And if the butterflies come back, then we know the love was real.
Psychologists say that the need for closure varies with people on a scale. The struggle to obtain closure is high when people are more structured or regimented in thinking and have low tolerance for ambiguity in life.
The struggle is lower when people are spiritual and  can offer their internal sufferings to God or higher being.
Whatever you are, the struggle is real and you will heal.

[Curiosity]

JB, such a good idea, writing out your thoughts and feelings, and putting them in a safe place. I journaled extensively for a long time - I wrote down all the love and longing, the anger and grief, all the things that didn’t have anywhere to go after BD. Some of those things were posted here, and some in my personal (digital) journal. I kept the entries and would go back and reread them sometimes, and then when I felt like I had thoroughly processed them, I would delete them. I still do that sometimes, though it’s less to do with W and my marriage, and more to do with my own thoughts and feelings. I can’t recommend journaling highly enough - it really has been a lifesaver for me.

[JohnnyBravo]

Rayd8,  the funny thing is that I deal with ambiguity all of the time at work and in much of my personal life, but have a really hard time dealing with it in this one thing. I think having a stable partner helps me accept uncertainty everywhere else. And, intimate relationships with women have always been my weak point. That's why success with my wife was so important to me.

Curiosity and Treasur, I do most of this writing offline. And a lot of it. Sometimes I feel like I need to tell real people,  who know how hard this is. I do a lot of "fake it 'till you make it," but that feels like I'm not facing reality or the feelings.

Pac, I think I remember you posting about that letter.

The divorce filing has me rattled ( and honestly, scared). I'll make the money back, but it seems so final. But then again, I assumed the marriage was final, too.

Thanks again for the caring and support, everyone.

JB

[HeavenlyFocus]

The divorce filing has me rattled ( and honestly, scared). I'll make the money back, but it seems so final. But then again, I assumed the marriage was final, too.

Hi JB,

I was rattled too when my W first filed and it sure hasn't been easy.  What's strikes me as I am the eve of my divorce is that I am ok and have reached some level of acceptance.  I am sad but moving forward with my life.    Being scared is normal but I am now looking forward in my life and not looking back at my W.   It will get easier.   Hope you have a wonderful New Year and that 2022 is better for both of us.

HF

[Nas]

Catching up on your thread. When I read your letter to your W, I recognized those feelings. Count me as another one who actually did write and give it to my former H early on, before I really knew what was going on. He did read it and said things that at the time gave me hope I’d “broken through” or that it would have an impact at some point. But he still did everything he did, do whether they read it or don’t read it doesn’t really seem to matter. You were wise to get the words out and post it here instead.

I journaled faithfully from the age of 17. A few years ago they were destroyed, literally dozens and dozens of spiral notebooks. Sometimes I really, really wish I could read them again. I think it’s good to get your feelings out and looking back every now and then can show you how you’ve grown or where you might still be stuck on some things.

Hang in there, JB.

[JohnnyBravo]

HF, thank you. I meant to give you a mention before as you're going through this now as well.

Nas, I'm sorry to hear that you lost all of that journaling. I did have one call with my wife about a month after she moved out regarding the lawyers.  At the end, I said a few smaller things,  but did not get hopeful responses. (More like,  "you don't have to be broken; are you using the rest of the therapist sessions for yourself?" Of course she wasn't.

Funny thing about that personal ambiguity I mentioned. About 14 years ago, I broke up with someone because she was determined to have kids,  and I was determined not to. Otherwise,  we worked pretty well together. I was heartbroken over my own decision, but her friends quickly introduced her to someone elsewhere who also wanted kids, and they hit it off. Once that was clear, (about a year later), I quit my job,  packed my stuff, and moved to a different state. No job lined up, just my savings and my wits. That was pretty ambiguous. And that's where I met my wife. Now, I just don't feel like I have that in me. I have a job I can work to retirement,  which I'd like to do someday. I would have tried a move with my wife, but it's not practical otherwise. (Of course, she would have been miserable after a few years there as well. )

[Nas]

Now, I just don't feel like I have that in me. I have a job I can work to retirement,  which I'd like to do someday. I would have tried a move with my wife, but it's not practical otherwise. (Of course, she would have been miserable after a few years there as well. )

You'll be surprised what you have in you, JB. As someone whose life events have guaranteed I'm going to be one of the working poor until the day I die, I totally get it about looking forward to retiring comfortably one day, and you have to do what makes most sense for you for that kind of stuff. But I wouldn't rule anything out entirely. It's not something you have to decide anytime soon, but you just never know if or how you might want to reshape your life for yourself (and that doesn't at all exclude the possibility of reconciliation either).

[JohnnyBravo]

Nas, I follow yor comments on threads, and I don't know how you or other folks with challenges vastly compounding the experience of LBS manage to do it. AND be supportive here.

Thank you.

[forthetrees]

As someone who had (has) added challenges beyond the LBS status, for me having the MLC experience was the lowest of the lows and thus the other crap though crushing was not as bad as the MLC. I guess that is why we can survive the other stuff since we know we survived the MLC. So, take heart in that if you can wobble your way through this to some sense of balance not much else can throw you completely off your game.

[JohnnyBravo]

Still feeling the holidays and the divorce filing, although I tried taking a walk and am keeping busy around the house.

I read an interesting book on menopause, Where Did My Wife Go?, by Jim Vigue. The author doesn't have any medical education, although that doesn't mean he can't review research. Still, I'd be interested in any opinions of women who have read it. It's written to help men understand what menopause entails, and it hit some of my wife's actions right on the head. Namely, that the hormonal changes cause the wife to focus on all of the husband's negatives. (Which makes me feel better that my wife had to reach for some. "No tattoos?" Really?)

The message to men is that you shouldn't be unfaithful (because your wife's libido is shot) or file for divorce because of this. (I planned on neither.) It does also state that the wife shouldn't throw the husband away because of this, and I've see the "don't make life-altering decisions right now" elsewhere, but your wife has to get that message.

I wish I had read this going in. Not that it necessarily would have changed anything, but I could have done some things better. And, it doesn't preclude an MLC at the same time, which just compounds things. The author also recommends that the wife get some counseling to understand everything, and I know my wife has not. We don't exactly have a bang-up medical system out here, but even if they recommended it I'm not sure she'd go. (I doubt the enabler did either.) He also notes that many doctors don't fully understand the meanings of hormone levels, which I've heard from female friends who have been through this.

I suppose that gives me some hope (or delusion) that she'll figure this out in a few years... But, I'll keep doing the best I can.

I hope you all have a safe new year. We've got some rain and snow coming in, so it will be a good night for the fireplace.

JB

[JohnnyBravo]

Well, I guess it's time for some more writing.

Although it was great to visit family for Christmas, via a looooong train ride, the holidays pretty much suuuuuuucked. I'm trying not to take that as a personal failing, since I see a lot of the vets are still affected as well. (I know at least HF and SS aren't exactly having a bang-up time of it...) Somewhere back in my thread, Marvin wrote that for the first six months, he expected his wife to show up again. I feel the same way. I don't know how much of that is denial, but while my head knew that this is a long struggle, and it would be highly unlikely to hear from my wife this soon, my heart was hoping for a Christmas miracle. Even a boomerang would've been something. I have hours where I'm OK, and some where I'm downright comfortable, and then some trigger will just send me into tears.

For next Christmas, I was thinking of setting up a trip to Krakow to see the market (buying now to get good flights), but my wife and I went there on our delayed honeymoon just a couple of years ago, and I'm not sure I could handle that alone yet. I'll keep it in mind, but maybe I'll be more ready by Christmas '23.

Anticipating selling the house at some point and moving, I've been piling up stuff to sell or donate, and took a batch to the thrift store today. Lots of books I've been hanging on to. I don't really need a 1950's book on aerodynamics, I have newer ones. (And even though my degree says "aeronautics," my thesis was in combustion, and I do neither of those things for my current job.) Some of the books are historically interesting, but many I don't really need. (I did actually read "Crime and Punishment," but only kept it in the bookcase to look smart.) I'm also starting to read the unread books that have been sitting there for so long. I have a lot of things that I bought for "us," or to try to keep my wife entertained at home during the pandemic. It doesn't seem to make sense to keep these without her. Much like the double sleeping bag I finally bought after we spent many nights freezing in a tent with an air mattress and regular blankets, but ultimately only used once. Right now I have zero interest in dating anyone, let alone camping with anyone, so it should go. I can always buy another one later. Same for the dining table, although I'd wait on that and a few other furniture items to see how much space I have where I actually end up. My wife was really the hostess, and I don't envision myself hosting dinner parties. Just the bar is enough. (More my kind of party, I guess.)

I'm also 90% of the way to deciding to sell my first motorcycle. It's still a lot of fun to ride, but I don't really do the kind of riding anymore that I bought it for, and it's old (a 1991 KLR650, which I bought it in 1997). I can get more $$ for it still running that I could if I just ran it into the ground. I have to remember to ride it once and a while to keep it going, and it's one more thing to take care of. I'd still have my 300 cc "commuter scooter" that I use for work and some errands, and the Super Tenere. The Tenere isn't as nimble as the KLR (which isn't terribly nimble itself), but I'd probably be better off focusing on making the Tenere what I really want for touring and taking more rides on that.

I'll be sad to leave the house after putting so much work into it, but it's really "our" house, and doesn't feel right with just me here. I've started changing out a few light fixtures to either save vintage ones that I like and can't find easily, or to revert rooms back to "normal." (We had a "gothic potty," if you can envision that. I made a TP holder out of cast iron railing decorations, and had swords on the wall.) For some reason, I just seem to be driven to customize things. Maybe if I get something like a condo, I'll focus more on hobbies. (Needs to be a condo with a private garage, which is the hard part.) I'll have to wait until the housing supply improves, though. We've been hit with a tight market like many other cities.

MourningDove made a few recent posts about her art... I've always liked to build things, and after my previous big breakup I started doing more sculpture. (Probably because the girlfriend I broke up with was an artist. I still have a painting she made after we broke up.) It's mostly simple stuff like yard art, and I've made Nixie clocks, but I did a couple of "emotional" pieces as well (which were relevant to the breakup, and are unfortunately relevant again). I'm not sure I would rate the title of "outsider artist," but that sounds way cooler than "some guy in his garage." Anyway, I'm going to start working on a few things to see if I can use up some of my scrap metal supply before I move. I'll probably pare down my collection of my own yard art, too. Inside the house, I have a ton of my mother's paintings (she became an artist later in life). My mother gave a couple of her paintings to my wife, and it heartens me that my wife kept them when she left. I think I'm afraid to go into thrift stores for fear of finding one there! (My mother passed away not too long after my wife met her.)

It's an odd connection to have, but one thing my wife and I have in common is that my father and her mother both died when we were in our early 20s (long before we met), and my mother and her father died in the mid 20-teens.

Well, I'm sure I've forgotten something, but that's probably enough rambling for now. To sum it up, I still miss my wife dearly. I really think the trifecta of menopause, pandemic, and resulting MLC just flipped her out.

Thank you for reading,

JB

[MadLuv]

JB- The holidays are rough. Much harder than I anticipated I also think the first few months were not as hard as I really thought he would come to his senses and that was with my filing and a completed divorce in 90 days. I also have no desire to date, because we are normal!!!! Connected to a person and life we did not choose to disconnect from, so it would be against our core to move on from unresolved love and emotions

I like you finds Ebb and flows on this journey. It is just frankly PAINFUL to go through. 13 months since BD however I am finally finding peace in my days and can finally see understanding you have no horse in their race really does allow you yo carry on. I can finally see that I will be ok no matter the outcome. What I think we LBS’ers have to appreciate is our ability to work through our pain and not around it like the MLC’er. Our healing is healthy in the most unhealthy situation.

[JohnnyBravo]

Welp,

I sent my wife new health insurance cards a week ago. Not just because I wanted to, but it turns out that the domestic order for divorce includes "do not cancel any insurance policies." I also told her that I didn't want her divorce, but if she was sure that was the answer, I wouldn't stand in her way.

She texted tonight, saying she was lonely for the past 1.5 years, and she knows I was irritated with her, and once I get past the hurt, I'll realize that I didn't liker her all that much. She's right about me being irritated, but i've come to realize that I was really irritated with myself. And if I didn't like her all that much, I wouldn't have proposed, or done all of the things I did for her. I think that's just projection, and she really doesn't like herself all that much. (And due to Covid, EVERYBODY was lonely for the past 1.5 years.)

Her sister has already moved to the east coast, and once the house sale here is final (in about a month), my wife is headed out there to a house they rented. After a year, they'll both buy houses. My wife said she can't stay here, and can't move back to her hometown. I know she's not going to be happy in her new town, but she'll have to figure that out herself. (I've been there, it's a beautiful place, but that was for one weekend. It won't turn out to be any different than anyplace else she lived, because no matter where you go, there you are.)

That's it for now,

JB

[Standing Strong]

Hey JB,

So they move away to rent a house and then both get their own houses in a year.
Is it just me, or is that the wackiest thing ever?
I'd have thought there would be a Golden Girls ending or something. 

Like why would I leave to go somewhere else with a family member, to live with them for a bit and then not live with them, even after moving across the country to be with them, for whatever reason they choose to go wherever it is we're going...... and then completely settle there (forever?)? Why? That seems completely one sided and....... crazy?
That'd be like me deciding to move to Podunk Nebraska to be with my bestie from High School, we'll live together for a year (roommates, in true MLC'er fashion) then we'll get apartments and be bachelors like we're 20 again (also in MLC'er fashion), hopefully see each other and hang out all the time, but maybe not, we're not young men anymore...... and hopefully Podunk is really exciting except I don't know, but the brochure looks nice..... I'm sure we can trust that for the rest of our lives. I'm sure everything will work out great after all with a name like Podunk everything has to have a storybook ending. Right?
Madness. 

-SS

[JohnnyBravo]

Per RCR's articles, it's possible to be in limerance with an idea just like with a person. Although, my wife didn't seem convinced that this move was ultimately going to be the answer, but something she had to try. I haven't heard from my lawyer what the first proposed settlement will be, but I don't think it will be enough to get my wife the house she wants, given what I'm assuming her salary to be. Unless her sister helps her out, which is possible. And the Golden Girls scenario does seem to be the best option; I think that was her plan before we met. I realize it's not my problem, but I feel for her.

I don't think my wife has any other option at this point, either. When her sister decided to retire, she bought a house near us instead of near her friends (where they're going now). She also sold the house she had in another state, had her furniture from there and from her overseas posting shipped here. To suddenly have to shift gears (start working again and move) six-eight months later is a big commitment.

Back to the "not liking her" part, there was indeed a time years ago when I would have let a relationship that I didn't want linger because it was too hard to end it. But since then I've been in a couple of relationships with women I realized I "didn't like" (once the shine had come off), and I had the strength to end those. There were indeed things I didn't like about my wife, but that's true of any person, and none of these were reasons to call it quits.

[JohnnyBravo]

So they move away to rent a house and then both get their own houses in a year.
Is it just me, or is that the wackiest thing ever?

The other thing that screams "broken" is that my wife had big plans for when her sister moved here; activities they'd do, the three of us having dinner together on Sunday nights, etc. Apparently she decided THAT wouldn't cure her enduring loneliness, but following her sister to a new town WILL?

It's nuts.

[JohnnyBravo]

I finally remembered to recommend a movie called, "The History Of Future Folk" to our band instructor tonight. It's a really sweet and funny story based on the back story of a real comedy duo/folk music act of two guys who dress in space suits and sing science fiction folk songs. It's on Netflix.

From that movie soundtrack, I bring you the inspirational song of the week, The Universe Within: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gjpDIlwZnk

(Forgot how much I like that song!)

[JohnnyBravo]

Here's one for everyone who gives their all and yet is afraid they've done it wrong or won't give themselves a break: Alex Lahey, Don't Be So Hard On Yourself

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uu1qtIk5eoY

[KellBell]

The other thing that screams "broken" is that my wife had big plans for when her sister moved here; activities they'd do, the three of us having dinner together on Sunday nights, etc. Apparently she decided THAT wouldn't cure her enduring loneliness, but following her sister to a new town WILL?

My Xh moved to the next state over after saying he felt 'alone'. He moved to a town where his company has a small branch with only 3 people working there. He knows no one there. No family close by. No real hobbies in which to meet people.  We are completely confused how this makes sense to him. But have to let him try and decide for himself and realize for himself whether it was right or not. Although seriously!? How can this possibly end up working? So I totally get your 'what in the ever loving hell' reaction!

[PJ Ames]

Thanks for sharing that song. I hadn't heard it before and I really like it!

[Standing Strong]

I like that song 

-SS

[5hilmerton]

Great update JB,
it's funny where the MLC'r will land.  My H is right where he refused to be for 40 years of our marriage.  He is now living around his brothers and sister.  I guess he moved back to the scene of the crime if you will.  The odd thing is he's still not engaging with them as a family.

Thank you for the smile and the song,
5hil

[JohnnyBravo]

Thanks, everybody. And glad you like the tune. Our band coach is trying to think of a theme for the next season, and I might try to nudge him to something more fun like that song. I've been trying to push him towards Journey (or a general '80s set), but he doesn't seem to know any of their songs. (He's young, but he knows classics in other genres...)

Kelly, I've been following your thread, and I really hope I can get to where you are in this whole thing. It still seems dang hard.

I was going to save the next song for another week, but here's a boost when you're having a hard time with the Unconditionals: Nada Surf, Always Love.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ulU08Se7Qs

The first line is, "To make a mountain of your life is just a choice." Which is very meaningful, but at the same time personally funny, because this week I finally took down a poster in the hallway at work that said, "One Team - Climbing the mountain to <milestone> together." We reached that milestone last summer, but I hate corporate propaganda and was just accustomed to ignoring the poster. It was there for a couple of years.

There are definitely some people I can't find love for. Our obnoxious program sponsors, for one. But I realized this week that if they weren't such a pain to work with, our team wouldn't have become as close-knit as we are. (bonding in the face of adversity kind of thing.) And I did have some compassion for my wife's enabler until this whole thing happened...

Have a good weekend, all.

JB

[MadLuv]

Great song with a great message a Journey?? For sure!!!!!!!

[JohnnyBravo]

Thought this was really touching. LOVE by Ukrainian artist Alexander Milov. (From Burning Man.)

[Standing Strong]

That's an amazing sculpture.

Thanks for sharing it 

-SS

[Schratz66]

The MLC make such perfect sense in their moving logic...lol......I have been lonesome so I will move to the East Coast with my sister.....and buy a house after a year...lol....what universe does that make sense in ? My MLC decided he would move into a doublewide on his mothers property while hooking up with OW on weekends 4 hours away....same scenario as he had after college 30 years ago.......glad they can adult....

[MadLuv]

That need for total escape is real. Move, replace partner. Start over….external answers to internal issues never work, but they have to figure that out or they they wont

[JohnnyBravo]

That artwork picture disappeared, I'll have to find a more stable source for it and repost.

Got the first draft settlement calculation from my lawyer... My cynical side thinks it must be nice to get a payout for ten years of free vacations and dinners out. Although I don't think it's as much as she was expecting, especially since a big chunk will be as a 401k (I think) which she can't touch without penalties. I'm still surprised that she can walk away from the entire house debt. I'm paying the mortgage myself anyway, but it seems like she should be on the hook for half.

I did leave a voicemail about doing taxes, and she texted me a photo of her 1099 as requested. Just business, no monster, so I suppose that's OK. One funny thing: Our house has granite countertops that we both hate because they camouflage anything sitting on them. Wherever my STBXW and her sister are renting, judging by the background of the 1099 form, it has the same dang countertops. Enjoy, W!

I know it's still really early in this whole thing, but it's still a bummer. At lest band practice went well tonight; gig is on Saturday.

[UrsaMajor]

I suspect that she can walk form the house debt because you are keeping the house? If you sell, do you get all the proceeds? Then it makes sense in a legal sort of way... Just make sure that, there is a clause somewhere that says you get all proceeds if the house is sold... If you have the debt, you get the spoils...

[JohnnyBravo]

I suspect that she can walk form the house debt because you are keeping the house? If you sell, do you get all the proceeds? Then it makes sense in a legal sort of way... Just make sure that, there is a clause somewhere that says you get all proceeds if the house is sold... If you have the debt, you get the spoils...

Yep, I'm keeping it. She's getting a portion of the equity based on a court case (which I haven't looked up). I think it has to do with how much each of us put in on the down payment, plus increase in value. It seems to be a little more complicated than just (market value) - (debt remaining on mortgage). Good point, though. I'll ask the lawyer if I'm free and clear on the house once the divorce is final.

[MomOfSteel]

JB, the whole divorce process is a mess if you ask me.  I gave up my career to support his training and extensive education.  Just when we finally made it he cheats and leaves.  I’m lucky that the laws protect me some but they are trying every trick to get out of paying support.  It really makes me question no fault divorce laws.  Divorce is financially devastating for both sides.  I also now have no idea how I’m supposed to retire and provide adequately. 

[Standing Strong]

JB, the whole divorce process is a mess if you ask me.  I gave up my career to support his training and extensive education.  Just when we finally made it he cheats and leaves.  I’m lucky that the laws protect me some but they are trying every trick to get out of paying support.  It really makes me question no fault divorce laws.  Divorce is financially devastating for both sides.  I also now have no idea how I’m supposed to retire and provide adequately.

No fault divorce laws should all be repealed. What were they thinking?

-SS

[MadLuv]

You should have her sign a deed transfer to relinquish any claim to and sale or proceeds of the property. There is also a quick claim deed in some states that can be filed with the courts.

[Thunder]

I agree 100% Standing, No Fault Divorce laws needs to be repealed!!
Dumbest law ever enacted. 

Johnny if you lawyer is not fighting for your rights, then don't settle, you find one who will.

[JohnnyBravo]

The laws here are pretty straightforward. It's community property: you keep what you had coming in, and split everything earned after marriage. With no kids and no complications, there's not much to discuss regarding "rights." The lawyer has done what looks like a good job there, it's just details on the house I have questions about. The only possible point of contention is spousal support, as W didn't file until after our fifth anniversary, but since she moved out earlier (and has always had a job) my lawyer already responded "no" to that in the petition response. (And to attorney fees. Both are apparently pretty standard asks in a divorce petition.)

She also responded that if my wife does not abide by the collaborative divorce procedure, we will be seeking attorney fees.

Now that I've slowed down my spending, my savings are actually growing reasonably well.

JB

[MomOfSteel]

At least here they go by the date of separation which would possibly eliminate any real threat of that especially if she didn’t really give up her own career for you or to raise kids.  She may not really be able to claim much.  As to lawyer fees, that one seems like a mystery to me.  We requested for my fees since he filed and I have no income.  He argues that he should be able to pay the minimum for our basic needs which is about half of what the formulas say and that should also be enough to cover my fees so he shouldn’t pay those either.  Im not sure what will happen with it. 

[Thunder]

I think the laws are fairly clear on most of this stuff.

Johnny, given you were only married and together under 5 years, and she is still young, has a job, and there are no kids, I would find it pretty strange if she is awarded alimony.  What would be her reason for needing it?  Unless she can't afford to take care of herself.

You're right. the house may be a little more complicated.  I would think they would go by how much you both put down on the house and split that up, as far as equity
goes.  How can they go by what the house is worth when the market changes so much from year to year?  Not sure how they do that.  Maybe they come up with an average Market Value over the last 5 years.

Oh boy this will be interesting.  I wish you luck, sounds like your lawyer is doing all the right things.

[JohnnyBravo]

Well, we had a pretty good funk/soul/R&B show last night. Unfortunately none of my friends from work could make it, but there was a pretty good crowd. The next season will be all Dave Grohl. I put in a request to drum on Learn to Fly, fingers crossed. (The instructor hasn't put together the song list yet, but he said that one will definitely be on there.)

[MadLuv]

Sounds like a great time. If I was close I would totally come and enjoy!! Glad you had a good show

[JohnnyBravo]

Just babbling...

I did the taxes and we owed money, so I sent the forms to my W last week and told her she owed half. She transferred the money today and rounded up a few dollars to make it even, so I told her I got it and added, "Thanks for the tip." Conversation (email) on taxes has been courteous, and she thanked me for doing the taxes.

My lawyer is scheduling some kind settlement discussion session with W and her lawyer. I'm not sure what that entails or why we need it, as the law is pretty straightforward (as I've mentioned before). I emailed back asking if she was expecting any disagreement, but both lawyers are on vacation this week as it's spring break for the local schools. The earliest possible dates were late May/early June, so we'll be married for that much longer, anyway. (Not sure that matters, or if W really needs the hard split of the divorce to begin processing.) The only thing I'm concerned about is interest rates going back up before I refinance the house into my own name. But, I can afford it.

There have been some discussions on the board here about whether or not to leave the marital home... Despite the work we've put into it, this place is way too big for me to stay in alone, and I don't want to take care of the pool and the yard, so I'm moving. I'll still be in the same town, though, as I have a good job here, and nowhere else I really want to move to. (What am I going to do, move to be near my stbxw?) I check Zillow from time to time and did see a house from the '70s with a heart-shaped bathtub. Not looking for quite THAT, but it was funny to see.

I had an odd sad moment over the weekend. The one design style that W and I agreed on was mid-century modern. We weren't all-in on it, but had begun collecting some things. One was a set of vintage plates that were our everyday plates. For parties and holiday dinners, we had a different set of "special" plates/place settings. By "special" I just mean that we liked the design; they're Asian-themed place settings from World Market. Well, without W here, I'm not one to throw dinner parties; the bar is all I need. We split the Asian plates when W moved out. I was using the MCM plates, but I wound up buying more of the Asian sets to use those as my daily fare, and will sell the MCM ones. For some reason that made me sad. I don't know if it's getting rid of something we had in common, or the memory of having holiday dinners off of the Asian plates. Oh well.

I did get cast for drums on Learn to Fly. What was I thinking? I've played faster beats, and these aren't too complicated for me to learn, but they're complicated enough to be hard to play fast. But, it will be fun to master this set. A group in Italy put together 1,000 people playing this song together: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JozAmXo2bDE

xyzcf, thank you for posting that article about "tragic optimism." I've described my stance as "sadly resigned." I don't want to do any of this, but W filed, so it has to be done.

That's all for tonight.

[Standing Strong]

Hey JB 

I think that's completely normal: to see something like that and to be sad. Just shows it meant something special to you, that in itself is loving.

That's a little funny about the house..... if W runs..... I want a BIGGER house. HA!!  I haven't kept up on what happening in the housing market.... hopefully more is coming online to buy. Wasn't much of a selection the last couple years.

She's zipping on thru. [shakes head] Always such a rush to an emotional dead end. Gotta chase that mirage.

-SS

[JohnnyBravo]

That's a little funny about the house..... if W runs..... I want a BIGGER house. HA!! 

I guess the size of the house is "tolerable..." But I really don't want to take care of a pool for just myself. The other plusses are the great view from here, and the stuff we've set up (primarily the bar and the extra shed). I'm going to miss the room we converted into the bar, as that looks pretty slick. But I did it once, I can do it again. I could really ditch two of the bedrooms, and have one larger living area to put the bar in, rather than a separate dining room and living room.

One of the other reasons we picked this house was that it has a perfect spot for an addition that would really take advantage of the views. But, I'm not doing that for just me. (And the divorce settlement will make that financially impossible for a long time.) My previous place was a 550 sq ft mother-in-law apartment, and W and I BOTH lived there for a year (with the cat) before we moved here. If I can do that, I can definitely downsize from what I have now. (And if we didn't kill each other then, we were meant to be.)

I also want to move closer to stuff. I'm currently on the edge of town, which again was great for me and W (and part of having the view), but for just me I'd like to be someplace I can walk to things. The area I'm focusing on has an Irish pub and a sushi bar on one block of Rte 66, so I'd be pretty well covered. I also need a garage, and enough space to put a shed or two on for the bikes and workshop, depending on whether the garage is one- or two-car. (In that neighborhood, I think they're mostly one car, but you never know.)

I wouldn't mind some of the loft condos downtown, but then I generally wouldn't have a private garage and space for a workshop. I'm not sure where to rent or buy industrial space for a shop, and I like to be able to just go into the garage and do stuff for a short while, rather than have to go someplace else to do it.

The other thing I'd like would be a 2-bedroom loft over a big garage/workshop in an industrial building, but anything like that would be in a crappy part of town, and probably not walkable...

Lastly, I'd consider a real MCM-style house, with a post-and-beam main room, for example. But I still wouldn't want to be far away from things.

But, none of this happens until this first part is over.

[Standing Strong]

 My previous place was a 550 sq ft mother-in-law apartment, and W and I BOTH lived there for a year (with the cat) before we moved here. If I can do that, I can definitely downsize from what I have now. (And if we didn't kill each other then, we were meant to be.)

This made me laugh..... I soooo get this.
When we 1st got married, we were so very young and so very broke. Our 1st place was a studio apartment, I was so proud. My 1st place ever. I showed it to her (she never had a place either and she didn't know what a studio apartment was). She looked around..... small kitchen, decent sized room, small bathroom.... "where's the rest?". HAHAHAHAHAHA. We had a blowup camping air mattress on the floor which I had to inflate every couple days with my lungs (I almost blacked out each time), and a small TV (also on the floor). One of the happiest times in my life. Having nothing and at the same time having everything. Oh to love like that again.   

It does sound like an adventure to move though. Fresh page, new adventures to be had. So easy to cling, takes courage to move forward.

-SS

[MadLuv]

JB- that is also where I am. I have a huge house and do I really need to maintain and pay the upkeep? I love a downtown loft idea as well. Have thought of that myself. Like you said you can afford to be where you are. That is where I am. So, just going to look at my options. No quick decision, but in a way that is moving forward in itself.

[JohnnyBravo]

Big week coming up, I guess... Settlement facilitation (mediation, basically) is Tuesday. I had a call with my lawyer on Friday to sort of prep for it.

Our case is pretty simple, knock on wood. I have a good legal case to not pay support, although W may ask for interim support (I forget the real name for it), which covers the time between filing and settlement/decree. Fortunately, W is employed, which would reduce the payment amount. On the downside, living with her sister doesn't count as a means of support for legal purposes; it would have to be a boyfriend, which seems odd.

I did look at one of W's credit card statements (part of the legal package); lots of Uber trips, so she's going out to bars to be around people, which was typical for her when we met. Also ordering takeout, so I guess the no-carb diet is off. I didn't look at any other statements, as I didn't want to come across a dating service or the like.

Hopefully there won't be issues with the house. Unfortunately, I have to refinance to take W off of the mortgage, so I'll be paying a higher rate. I'm going to do whatever I can to make the cash payout from savings rather than adding a cash-out on top of the mortgage principal, but I won't really be able to figure out that path until I see the final numbers. On the upside, having to switch to a higher interest rate is an argument against any support payments. There's a possibility that W will request that I sell the house to pay her out, although a) I shouldn't have any problem affording the change, and b) the house was the one thing she cried about when she left. (She did all of the painting, so she does have work invested in it.) I'm planning on moving anyway, but don't want to do it until I find a place I want, rather than just a place that's available.

I can't remember if I've journaled this before, but W's family has a history of mental illness. The mom was bipolar, and the two oldest sisters had issues. One is on meds, and the oldest basically starved herself to death during an illness. The oldest also swindled money out of people, one being W's "good" sister, with whom she's now living. (W and that sister are the younger two.) I wonder if good sister sees any parallels with what W is doing now, or she's just an enabler. The odd thing is that she wouldn't put up with any BS at her job, but family is often a blind spot for people.

At any rate, W and her close sister seemed to be OK mentally, but who knows. That could be a part of W's problems.

Not a peep out of W in the meantime. She was thankful when I did the taxes and promptly paid her half. A couple of weeks later I needed her new address for work purposes, and she just emailed it with no comments. Maybe she thought I was going to bother her, but it's for our background check renewals. When the investigator spoke to me, she asked what W would give as the reasons for leaving. I told her what W said, that we were two different people, and that I would realize that I "didn't really like her that much." I guess W didn't tell the investigator anything bad, because I haven't received any follow-up calls...

Everyone at work who stayed on through the pandemic received a note in the mail thanking us for staying with our jobs. It included a second note to give to our family as a thank you for supporting us through the pandemic as well. That brought a tear to my eye, as W was only there for half of it.

The settlement facilitation is one where the two parties are in different rooms and the mediator goes back and forth; they can do it in person or on Zoom, but of course with the Zoom option you can't discuss things privately. I'm meeting my lawyer there so we can work directly together. I can't imagine W is flying back for this, but I'll be looking sharp just in case.

JB

[Imgood]

Hey JB, good luck with mediation. I am in the throes of resolving H’s divorce. We need to split the businesses, so that’s going to take a little time…..unfortunately.

[MadLuv]

JB- good luck Tuesday. Will send some positive juju your way!! Don’t under estimate that family mental illness and any other medical family issues. My XH brother committed himself when he was younger for  depression. His GF was a MLCer and Narcissist. I firmly believe there is some role not only in family dynamics but also the makeup of DNA that can contribute.

Make sure and update next week. Hard days ahead, but you have been through worse. Unfortunately      Walk in strong and dapper!!

[HeavenlyFocus]

Hey JB,

Good luck with the mediation on Tuesday.  You seem to have a good outlook and hope you can find peace once things are worked out.

HF

[MomOfSteel]

I hope mediation goes well tomorrow.  I hope things are in your favor and you can feel a sense of relief once you are done.

[JohnnyBravo]

LnB, HF, MadLuv, and Imgood,

Thank you all for your support. I've rotated between ambivalent, sad, and a little scared of the mediation meeting, but whatever happens, it will be over by the end of the day. It still boggles my mind (as it did for everyone else here) that W would just decide to quit, but at least I feel like I've carried myself fairly well through this so far. And I really don't think this jackpot is going to change W's life as much as she thinks it will, but I'm sure it will take time to figure that out.

More tomorrow,

JB

[MadLuv]

JB- Good Luck today!!! You are absolutely right. The grass is not greener on the other side. She may not see it now, but good partners are hard to find. You have handled yourself more than well. I could have used a course a few times from you!! Hehe

[Imgood]

JB I hope things go well today!

[Standing Strong]

I hope it's going well today JB

Wishing for the best

-SS

[JohnnyBravo]

Still sitting here in the office... boy, she's really trying the nickel and diming on stuff to get to her target number. I hope she can sleep well after this is over.

[Standing Strong]

Still sitting here in the office... boy, she's really trying the nickel and diming on stuff to get to her target number. I hope she can sleep well after this is over.

I'm sorry to hear that. That has to be very disappointing. 
Did you get to see her?

So it's clear what it is she wants....... is it even reasonable or realistic? Or way off like Fantasy Island?
"Da plain...... Da plain!!!"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9lXBTmjaGs

[Hoosier Daddy]

JB,

No matter what she gets asset wise she lost.

She’ll figure this out some day.

HD

[xyzcf]

It is the strangest thing. They are the ones who want out. I mistakenly thought that would mean he would be willing to be "generous" which he certainly could have been...but oh no.

This tears us apart on so many levels. It might take a bit to get back your equilibrium but you will.

[JohnnyBravo]

Well, that took the entire day. My attorney said it was one of the most difficult mediations she had to deal with that didn't involve children. I was with my atty at the mediator's office, and W and her atty were both on Zoom in another room; W is out of state, so her atty wasn't physically with her, which I think made things more difficult.

The mediator eventually found out two things: 1), W was entirely focused on how much money she could have made if she didn't marry me, and instead remained in her sister's townhouse (that she was invested in) and sold it now, and 2) she needed X dollars to put a down payment on a house and have a mortgage payment she could afford. Neither of these things are based in reality of the separation laws of this state. Ultimately, i wound up giving W probably 10-20% more than she should have received, but fighting that would have resulted in litigation, which would have cost me more overall. W had given that number to her atty, and the atty basically had to manipulate numbers to come up to that answer.

W is also getting one year of alimony. There is bad case law in this state regarding alimony, and the assigned judge has gotten slapped down a few times by veering away from precedent, so it was safest to go this route rather than risk trial and indefinite support. Even though she was self-supporting when I met her, W's argument was that she was working two jobs at that time, and is too old to do that now. Not really true, as W's second job was just part time when the opportunity arose.

My atty had a feeling that something was up prior, because she has worked a lot with W's atty on collaborative divorce cases, and on this one the other atty wasn't nearly as responsive as she has been in the past. If W's atty was in the room with her, she may have been able to talk W down a bit, but didn't want to lose her completely given the isolation. Given they were over Zoom, the mediator couldn't get a good read on emotions or body language. (I was curious if W looks aged, but didn't ask the mediator because it doesn't really matter, and he wouldn't have a benchmark to refer to.)

If anything, this really shows that something in W has snapped. She is not the loving spouse she was before, and this is really on script for MLC. (Especially, "I'd be better off if I didn't marry him.") My atty noted that W's actions sounded very immature, and given that W has never had savings or retirement before, my atty told me, "I hate to say this, but when your W receives this settlement it will be the wealthiest she ever is for the rest of her life." My atty has set up spending plans for clients who received a livable settlement, told them, "If you stick to this plan you'll be fine," and then they blow it. Maybe W will be able to afford that house, but one repair will probably put her under.

I spoke with my stepmom after I got home, and then when I thought about possibly never seeing the version of W that loves me again, I had a good cry. I really do miss her, and I hope she can find her way out some day. I know she loved me very much when she was "normal." But, maybe she thrives on chaos, given her childhood and early adult years. Maybe she couldn't handle being with someone stable. (Those are thoughts from my atty.)

xyzcf, my atty said something similar. "If your W said she realized she wasn't ready to get married when she did and just wanted a fair settlement, that would be one thing. But this has no basis in reality." W's single-mindedness reminded me of the paperboy in Better Off Dead.

Hoosier, thank you for that.

SS, it definitely wasn't realistic. I think what we brought it down to is still a bit above "reasonable," but I can recover much more quickly financially than she ever will.

Time to veg for a bit, I guess. Thank you for the support, everyone. I really appreciate having understanding people around.

JB

[forthetrees]

You made it through the day, reached out for support, got validation from your attorney that all is not well in your wife´s realm, and you now have some numbers to work with for your own future.

Am trying to wrap my head around what you said and want to be sure I understood- she wanted to know how well off she´d be if she had never married you? Whaaat? If that is her thinking, it´s beyond my comprehension. She wants a re-do on life, a marriage mulligan? What if one of you had gotten ill and you´d gotten up to your ears in medical debt? While it hurts for you to be treated as a $ dispenser, it tends to propel you forward in accepting that the spouse you knew is gone.

May you wake up to a new emotional state- one of lightness.

[JohnnyBravo]

Am trying to wrap my head around what you said and want to be sure I understood- she wanted to know how well off she´d be if she had never married you? Whaaat? If that is her thinking, it´s beyond my comprehension.

Right before we started dating, her sister (who normally lives out of the country for work) bought a townhome so she'd have a place to come home to on work breaks, and W moved in to pay towards the mortgage instead of paying rent. I was concerned about the company I was working for going under (and I was a bit under-employed), and after not finding a better job locally we agreed that I'd look out of state. W's decision was for her sister to put the townhome on the market and she would move in with me, so we would be ready to move to wherever my new job was on short notice. (Again, that was W's idea.) W made 35k from the sale of the townhome. If she had stayed in the townhome until now, she would get $200k (or more) from its sale now. She's completely missing the point that she would have to sell to get that money, and then would have no place to live.

She told me at BD1 that she screwed herself financially by making that decision. The bigger bad decision was leaving a loving husband who has a stable, well-paying job.

Thank you, trees.

[Standing Strong]

Oh JB..... that sounds so rough, I'm so sorry.

So now you know how far she has sank. 

-SS

[MomOfSteel]

I hope you are doing something for yourself tonight as I’m sure it was exhausting today. Didn’t she work the whole time you were married or am I getting stories confused?  The argument about having a higher salary doesn’t hold much weight (at least for me) if she has been working the whole time.  It’s crazy how wildly different the spousal support laws are between different states.  The problem is that you are basically being further punished and you aren’t the one that did it.  The theme of them being worried so much about their own finances and not being fair because they want all the money themselves is definitely a thing for my MLCer as well.  Mine acts like I’m ridiculous for not agreeing to a horribly bad deal for me.  They just aren’t grounded in reality.  I hope that at least knowing what you are facing can at least bring some peace by just not having the unknown over your head. 

[Imgood]

JB - Ultimately, she has lost. She has lost you. One day when light dawns on her, that realization is going to hurt like nothing she has ever felt before.  It stinks that you gave 10-20 percent more but I totally get it……..to go to court and fight……..the cost………the longer dragged out process………..sometimes it’s just not worth it. Brighter days are ahead!

[MadLuv]

JB-

 I know that was a emotional and draining day. It hard to keep seeing that they have changed and not who you loved or who loved you.  She seems to not be thinking clearly financially or emotionally, but I know at some point she will and she will regret leaving her loving and stable relationship. Love and dedication is just hard to find and it will be a rude awakening some day. Glad you have that behind you, even if it did not go the way you hoped.

[xyzcf]

This is done. Take some time to live with it and then allow it to go.

You have done all that you can.

This is exhausting and you may experience some physical effects....pay attention to what your mind/body is telling you.

Breathe, slowly, breathe in cleansing breaths, breath out the darkness.

We are here for you.

[JohnnyBravo]

New thread time: https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11936.0