[Pacman]

Old thread
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11833.150

So to continue.
She messaged about her mum having a scan due to possible dementia.
Says that her mum and dad would like to see me and that she wants me to continue visiting them?

I know I'm trying to taste green with my elbow 

But whilst part of me thinks it was "good" that she reached out to me I just don't understand her thinking. Why contact me when she has categorically stated that she doesn't want me as a H anymore.

I want to offer sympathy but at the same time not sure that it is the right thing to do given everything that is going on and may only reinforce her "I want to be friends" attitude.

It may be a small win but not sure how to interact with her anymore.

Seconding what HF said. It's not necessarily giving up, and you don't have to accept the situation but more the fact that you have no control over it. It's moving towards thinking with your head rather than your heart. It's a long slog, and you need strength in order to not give up. The strength you build will help you whether or not the outcome is what you're hoping for.

And as always, easier said than done.

JB

It feels like giving up on the marriage.

Hi Pac,

It now has been over 1 year since BD for me and my W is still lying and off in her fantasy world.   I have worked to accept this and let go but I have not given up on my marriage although I am at the brink of D.   I am not moving on but moving forward with my life for me and my kids.   This MLC experience is awful but I still have joy in my life.   Keep posting  and in time it will get easier with each coming day.

HF

Stuck in my black and white thinking. If she is out then she is out and nothing I can do about it. But wish that it wasn't the case and that things would work out differently. Don't want what we had as obviously that was troubled. Want a new start and rebuild.

[OffRoad]

I've read all the resources numerous times but it all points to letting go, giving up, accepting it and moving on.
I'm not anywhere near ready to do that even though I've tried.

You have part of this right. Yes, let go. You cannot make her do what you want. Yes, accept that this is the situation you have right now. But you do not have to give up or move on. Do, however, move FORWARD.  Think of it like you are moving on a path. She is moving on another path (maybe in a tunnel) that is not your path. Maybe your paths will intersect or connect back up at some point, but you cannot know if that will happen or not.

When you move forward, you work on yourself, improve your mindset, your health, make sure you are good in your own skin, with or without her or any other person. If she gets her head on straight and wants to work on the marriage, you are in a good place. If she does not, you are in a good place. If you end up finding someone else or not, you are in a good place. All of that has zero to do with giving up or moving on. It has to do with taking care of yourself, making you the best you for yourself. Not for anyone else, but for you.

Hanging on with the attitude that you can "nice" or polite her back, or even just "not scare her away" helps no one. It does not help you, it does not help her. You can still be polite if you want to, but only if it is not hurtful to you.  You matter.

You don't have to stop standing for your marriage to take care of yourself and keep moving down the metaphorical road. How would you feel if she arrived at the end of the road, and you weren't there because you stayed stuck?

Little anecdote. I went out to Denny's with (at the time) soon to be XH to figure the split of the assets. As we sit there, he is telling me all about how upset he is that a friends father has died (this happened several month previous, so was not new news). The he stops and says "I don't know why I am telling you all this." I said "I am the one you told all these things to for 20 some years. Why would you stop now?" And it was exactly that. I was the familiar face he always told these things to. It meant zero to him. Zilch. Nada. I was just familiar. I could have been rude, but chose not to, there was no point in being rude. He had no concept of how what he had done had devastated me. He did not care, all he cared about was himself.

This is your W. It's not good or bad that she "reached out" to you. She just needed someone to talk to, you know her and her mother, you are familiar. She needs to manage her image that she is not a bad person. That's all it is.

As to you, respond if that is who you are and it does not hurt you. If it hurts you, do not respond. Place zero importance on anything she does, because guaranteed, she is placing zero importance on you.

[Trustandlove]

Regarding your in-laws; my view would be to visit them if that is what you would like to do, regardless of her.  But don't feel you have to if you don't have the kind of relationship with them that would warrant that. 

My MIL was diagnosed with Alzheimer's just a few months after BD; despite everything my then H was doing I continued to see her, independently; I also took the children when that was possible.  She, although already going downhill, was devastated about what my H was doing when she found out; she deteriorated very quickly so soon lost all coherence, but she had always been kind to me and I saw no reason to stop seeing her.  H never tried to introduce an OW to her, which admittedly helped.   

I also agree with what OffRoad says...

[JohnnyBravo]

You don't have to stop standing for your marriage to take care of yourself and keep moving down the metaphorical road. How would you feel if she arrived at the end of the road, and you weren't there because you stayed stuck?

This is a really good one for everyone, OffRoad. Thanks.

Pacman, as to the mother-in-law, I'm trying to think of what I'd do if I heard that my SIL were in some related situation. My relationship with my SIL never grew to the point where we would just chat or support each other on our own. If I did, I'd reach out to her directly, rather than through my W. But I don't have that relationship, so I wouldn't reach out. If W asked me to support her (W) through a crisis with SIL, I don't think I would. At least, not at this stage in MLC. W chose to abandon my support for her, and she certainly isn't supporting me emotionally, so no dice. That may sound petty, but I think it's realistic.

JB

[Pacman]

You have part of this right. Yes, let go. You cannot make her do what you want. Yes, accept that this is the situation you have right now. But you do not have to give up or move on. Do, however, move FORWARD.  Think of it like you are moving on a path. She is moving on another path (maybe in a tunnel) that is not your path. Maybe your paths will intersect or connect back up at some point, but you cannot know if that will happen or not.

You are right, she chose to have an affair and chose to leave me and the family.

When you move forward, you work on yourself, improve your mindset, your health, make sure you are good in your own skin, with or without her or any other person. If she gets her head on straight and wants to work on the marriage, you are in a good place. If she does not, you are in a good place. If you end up finding someone else or not, you are in a good place. All of that has zero to do with giving up or moving on. It has to do with taking care of yourself, making you the best you for yourself. Not for anyone else, but for you.

Starting to think if that is the person she is now I'm not sure that I would be able to get passed the betrayal, the lies, the hurt and the anger???

Hanging on with the attitude that you can "nice" or polite her back, or even just "not scare her away" helps no one. It does not help you, it does not help her. You can still be polite if you want to, but only if it is not hurtful to you.  You matter.

I need to understand this....I matter and I am not what she made me out to be by her actions.

You don't have to stop standing for your marriage to take care of yourself and keep moving down the metaphorical road. How would you feel if she arrived at the end of the road, and you weren't there because you stayed stuck?

Not sure at the moment whether I could take her back after this. And who knows what or who she continues to do now.

Little anecdote. I went out to Denny's with (at the time) soon to be XH to figure the split of the assets. As we sit there, he is telling me all about how upset he is that a friends father has died (this happened several month previous, so was not new news). The he stops and says "I don't know why I am telling you all this." I said "I am the one you told all these things to for 20 some years. Why would you stop now?" And it was exactly that. I was the familiar face he always told these things to. It meant zero to him. Zilch. Nada. I was just familiar. I could have been rude, but chose not to, there was no point in being rude. He had no concept of how what he had done had devastated me. He did not care, all he cared about was himself.

This in a nutshell. "I was only thinking of myself."

This is your W. It's not good or bad that she "reached out" to you. She just needed someone to talk to, you know her and her mother, you are familiar. She needs to manage her image that she is not a bad person. That's all it is.

Only on paper she is.

As to you, respond if that is who you are and it does not hurt you. If it hurts you, do not respond. Place zero importance on anything she does, because guaranteed, she is placing zero importance on you.

Don't I know this now. Only contacts when she wants something. I am just a piece of crap in her life.

This is a really good one for everyone, OffRoad. Thanks.

Pacman, as to the mother-in-law, I'm trying to think of what I'd do if I heard that my SIL were in some related situation. My relationship with my SIL never grew to the point where we would just chat or support each other on our own. If I did, I'd reach out to her directly, rather than through my W. But I don't have that relationship, so I wouldn't reach out. If W asked me to support her (W) through a crisis with SIL, I don't think I would. At least, not at this stage in MLC. W chose to abandon my support for her, and she certainly isn't supporting me emotionally, so no dice. That may sound petty, but I think it's realistic.

JB

You are 1000% right. She abandoned us and doesn't deserve any support.  As for MIL I will have some interaction with her but not because of W.


Starting to realise that it could never be a marriage again after her deception. I would probably be thinking will she do it again. If she cut contact with him at my insistence but as she has now gone back talking to him (and probably more) the 2 broken turds can have each other. Maybe she can move in with him and his ex wife.....

[Treasur]

Lot of wisdom in OR’s post, Pac. Particularly about familiarity and choosing your response to situations based on what works for you regardless of what your wife says, thinks or wants.
Visit with your ILs or don’t based on what feels appropriate to you......
Find some neutral language, if you want to, to respond to texts from your wife. Ok, thanks for letting me know, hope all goes well, sorry to hear that......even an appropriate emoji lol, bc less is more now....much as you have done actually....buts it’s ok too to ignore them if you have nothing to say and there is not a specific question.

Slight tangent....the tone of your posts sound increasingly angry, frustrated and resentful. Which is of course completely normal and understandable.
However....
You might want to use the Rule of 3 a bit (hours/days) bc anger can drive our reactions in a way that wouldn’t be the case if we took a beat to calm down and then decide. Plus anger and resentment can seep its’ way out into other relationships and interactions in ways that aren’t always helpful. Don’t get me wrong....there is nothing wrong with feeling anger....but you still have plenty of choices about what you DO regardless of how you feel. Not always easy to see in the moment but it’s the difference between Reacting and Responding. And that is also what begins to unhook us from the emotional rollercoaster of feeling attached to someone who has fundamentally and unilaterally changed the nature of the relationship. That space between Feeling and Doing is where you get to decide what is best for you in any given situation and where you take your power back by taking responsibility for your own actions bc you consciously chose them.
Jmo.

[Pacman]

Lot of wisdom in OR’s post, Pac. Particularly about familiarity and choosing your response to situations based on what works for you regardless of what your wife says, thinks or wants.

Not my wife anymore. She is an alien to everyone except her AP.

Visit with your ILs or don’t based on what feels appropriate to you......

It's so hard to see them. Ex SIL lives 2 doors down, Ex MIL lives behind me, Ex Niece in law lives next door.

Find some neutral language, if you want to, to respond to texts from your wife. Ok, thanks for letting me know, hope all goes well, sorry to hear that......even an appropriate emoji lol, bc less is more now....much as you have done actually....buts it’s ok too to ignore them if you have nothing to say and there is not a specific question.

I'm getting better at neutral language but it makes stuff all difference. If I knew it was a sexual relationship between him and her I could cut ties quite easily but will NEVER know the truth.

Slight tangent....the tone of your posts sound increasingly angry, frustrated and resentful. Which is of course completely normal and understandable.
However....
You might want to use the Rule of 3 a bit (hours/days) bc anger can drive our reactions in a way that wouldn’t be the case if we took a beat to calm down and then decide. Plus anger and resentment can seep its’ way out into other relationships and interactions in ways that aren’t always helpful. Don’t get me wrong....there is nothing wrong with feeling anger....but you still have plenty of choices about what you DO regardless of how you feel. Not always easy to see in the moment but it’s the difference between Reacting and Responding. And that is also what begins to unhook us from the emotional rollercoaster of feeling attached to someone who has fundamentally and unilaterally changed the nature of the relationship. That space between Feeling and Doing is where you get to decide what is best for you in any given situation and where you take your power back by taking responsibility for your own actions bc you consciously chose them.
Jmo.

You are right. My anger has taken over due to the betrayal and hurt I feel.
 I seriously just want to pack my $h!te and move away from everything...sons and grandbabies included. It all hurts so much when this should have been one of "our" greatest times of "our" lives.
I'm not living for "me" at the moment. Just trying to survive and breathe. But I can feel that a major breakdown is on the cards.

[MadLuv]

I agree with all others. If you were close it will be for you and you alone to visit and have those moments. No one should take away your ability to spend time with those that have meant so much in your life in their darkest hours. I would visit with no hesitation.

[Treasur]

I'm getting better at neutral language but it makes stuff all difference. If I knew it was a sexual relationship between him and her I could cut ties quite easily but will NEVER know the truth.

Actually I think you are pretty good at it, Pac, much better than I was at your stage.
But
What I am trying to say is that the purpose is NOT what you said here.
It’s about YOUR emotional stability and wellbeing. It’s about mitigating more damage to you from the sheer WTFness of it all.
Bc of this.....

I can feel that a major breakdown is on the cards.

And that’s what we want you to be able to avoid.
Bc not one thing in your life will be made better by that, regardless of what happens with your marriage.
Therefore, you need to prioritise whatever you need to do to avoid that. Little breakdowns are ok, well they suck but they won’t derail your life.....a big one can.

I can see that you are angry, frustrated and a bit black/white right now in some of your thoughts. Which is normal but not so helpful perhaps? Bc the truth is rarely so black/white and there are things you think and feel now that you will not always think/feel, believe me. And the bigger truths tend to have a way of coming out in the wash over time.  Imho you probably know enough based on your w’s actions to know that you are in a s$itstorm, right?

There are plenty of things that I and others could suggest that would help you to prioritise your level of stress and wellbeing right now. If that’s helpful, we’ll be happy to share our experience of what worked and what didn’t for us.
More importantly though, what do you think you need to do? What do you need to do more of and less of, do you think?

[MadLuv]

Pacman- I had a little mini breakdown this weekend after S28 accident. It was actually a life changer. I just let everything out. All the sadz and madz that were built up and then was like WTF to be honest. This is what this is doing to me??? Nooooo, I have to get my $hitzzzzz together. I am better than this.

Sometimes a mini breakdown and release can be a recharge. A eye opener to the changes needed. For me a mini WAKE CALL that I don’t want to lose myself. This is such a crazy thing and who wouldn’t feel a little off the rails dealing with the insanity of it all.
Then you remember—— it’s them no me. It’s them not me!!!

[5hilmerton]

Wow, i skip one day and need to catch up!

Still following,
5hil

[Pacman]

There are plenty of things that I and others could suggest that would help you to prioritise your level of stress and wellbeing right now. If that’s helpful, we’ll be happy to share our experience of what worked and what didn’t for us.
More importantly though, what do you think you need to do? What do you need to do more of and less of, do you think?

This is why I'm here. To try and make my life easier, vent, learn and be the best I can be.
I need to focus more on myself and try to let go of 23 years.. because it's obvious that is what she is doing.

Pacman- I had a little mini breakdown this weekend after S28 accident. It was actually a life changer. I just let everything out. All the sadz and madz that were built up and then was like WTF to be honest. This is what this is doing to me??? Nooooo, I have to get my $hitzzzzz together. I am better than this.

Sometimes a mini breakdown and release can be a recharge. A eye opener to the changes needed. For me a mini WAKE CALL that I don’t want to lose myself. This is such a crazy thing and who wouldn’t feel a little off the rails dealing with the insanity of it all.
Then you remember—— it’s them no me. It’s them not me!!!

This is the part that I need to keep reinforcing to myself. I may have not been the best husband/person but I was loyal and should stop punishing/questioning myself for her choice.

[Treasur]

This is why I'm here. To try and make my life easier, vent, learn and be the best I can be.
I need to focus more on myself and try to let go of 23 years.. because it's obvious that is what she is doing.

And that is why imho aiming for Acceptance matters. Less about giving up, more about surrendering to the current reality as you see it.
Accepting the current factual stuff that has happened/is happening.
That doesn’t mean you have to entirely write off those 23 years, Pac. But it does mean accepting that life is now different. And that some of the future is now unknown. And that you need to adapt to that and have faith that you will figure it out as you go along.

So, what will make your life easier now?
What are you doing to learn, focus on yourself and be your best? IC? GAL stuff? Basic self care?

[UrsaMajor]

I need to focus more on myself

yes, you do.

and try to let go of 23 years..

What does "letting go" look like for you? Rewriting history that it was all horrible or didn't happen is what the Mid-Lifer is doing. Recalling that there were good times as well as not-so-good times is reality. This is NOT a "Men In Black" episode where you get to look at the flashy thing and have your memory erased. "Letting Go" needs to be in a healthy manner - maybe more like "acceptance" that things are the way they are now, that the person that you knew as Spouse has been invaded by a Body Snatcher and is no longer internally the person that you married. That doesn't mean that your history is/was invalid or not real

because it's obvious that is what she is doing.

And right here is exactly the kind of "Stinkin' Thinkin' " (to rip off a phrase from Zig Zigler) that needs to be chopped off at the root.... This snarky add-on (yeah, we have all done it, all been there) does nothing to help YOU heal... THAT is what this is all about. Your Mid-Lifer is on her own path and there is NOTHING THAT YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT so this kind of thinking is like purposefully and repeatedly sticking a needle dipped in a mixture of rubbing alcohol, salt water, and juice from a Carolina Reaper Chili Pepper under your skin. You are focusing your attention on her and therefore feeding your own anger, wich then, in turn, feeds your own pain.

What does that do for you? What are you getting out of it by doing so? What need is being met?

Maybe it is time (maybe not - maybe it is still to fresh - only you and time can tell) to start to change the above sentence.... migrate to something more along the lines of

I need to focus more on myself, on my healing, on my emotional health and give MLCW and her issues to the Universe/God to handle. I can only control my own happiness and well-being. MLCW is on her own journey, her own path that only she can control so I will let her do that and no longer allow her emotional Rollercoaster to drag me along with it.

[Kind18]

I seriously just want to pack my $h!te and move away from everything...sons and grandbabies included.

This is a concerning statement.

I really think you need to get into individual counselling. Not “I went a couple of times, it helped for a day or two”… but “I’ve committed to ongoing IC to unpack all that has happened to me and learn long term strategies to help me cope.”

You’ve admitted you’re struggling with anger and resentment and that you are at your limit. You really need a professional to get involved and help give you the tools you need so this becomes manageable.

[Pacman]

I am at the point that I want to confront the prick. He blocked me as soon as I knew about the affair.
Which in itself says he knew it was crap but still kept doing it.

I won't though as it proves I am less than both of them.

Have spent today making a bedroom in the shed for my granddaughter so her parents have their own space. Invited DIL father to help so that he feels part of the transition. That was good because normally I would just do stuff by myself and refuse help.

So also cooking a family  pork roast for us to sit down and have  dinner together.

Another day forward in this piece of crap that life dealt me.

[Pacman]

Got a message from her this morning asking if it was OK for her to come and visit boys (19 and 22) and grandchildren?
She saw pics of the room I'm building for granddaughter and responded with a heart emoji.

Not sure how I feel about this.

Might be cake eating??

[JohnnyBravo]

Pacman,

I think she'd be looking for more from you for true cake eating, but it may be too soon to tell what's going on with her. Could have had a bad day with the OM, could have a moment of clarity that will vanish before she remembers to come over, or she gets some other personal gain from it. Only allow what you are comfortable with.

JB

[Pacman]

Pacman,

I think she'd be looking for more from you for true cake eating, but it may be too soon to tell what's going on with her. Could have had a bad day with the OM, could have a moment of clarity that will vanish before she remembers to come over, or she gets some other personal gain from it. Only allow what you are comfortable with.

JB

It's a hard one. I know I'm "trying to taste green with my elbow" in trying to understand her motives....but maybe it's just straight forward and she wants to see the grandchildren...................which is interesting as she only lives 10 minutes away and they can visit her anytime.

I could accept it on face value and "if" she turns up while I'm there I can display some of the changes I've made, not that she will believe them anyway.
OR she will arrange to turn up when I'm at work.......not sure if I'm comfortable with that.

[Treasur]

Right now, Pac, i’d suggest that her motives - cake or not - don’t matter so much.
What matters is you - and your sons and their partners too - only doing what feels appropriate and ok for you right now. Have you asked your sons if they have discussed her visiting with her? And what their preferences are? Bc tbh they are adults and entitled to see her (or not) where or when they wish to do so. So it is probably worth asking them for their preferences?

And you can, based on that, choose what you are ok with. And a reminder....it isn’t all about her, you know, or if she ‘pops by’. You - and your sons for that matter - can say no, not here, not yet. And you can tell her a time rather than leaving it all up to her and arrange to be busy somewhere else doing something else if you don’t feel ready to calmly do a quasi family visit just yet.

We hear you, that you are struggling right now. And your mental wellbeing is a good enough reason for saying no, not yet, not here or yes with conditions. Or indeed to take yourself out of the equation altogether and agree with your adult sons that they should make their own arrangements directly with her if they want to see her, ideally someplace other than your home. What you do is unlikely to have any big effect on her current chosen path right now, either good or bad, but it may have a significant effect on how you navigate your unchosen one. Jmo.

[xyzcf]

Got a message from her this morning asking if it was OK for her to come and visit boys (19 and 22) and grandchildren?
She saw pics of the room I'm building for granddaughter and responded with a heart emoji.

Not sure how I feel about this.

Might be cake eating??

I think that sometimes we overthink things and read into their actions things that in actuality are not at all what their actions mean.

MLCers do change, but not completely. Many still wish to see their kids and grandchildren as well as live a different life that they feel they must have. Some MLCers are even comfortable seeing us (much more comfortable than we are seeing them) because in their minds, they think this is best and often they cannot see that this is not what we desire.

This hurts us deeply. If they want to be gone, then go and leave us alone once and for all......but it doesn't work that way unless they are a vanisher.

I don't see her wanting to see her kids and grandchildren as cake eating. By putting it out to you, she is actually asking you if it is ok, so in some ways, she is being somewhat respectful.

It is so hard to know what boundaries need to be in place. I did not see my husband for 19 months, if he needed to come pick something up from our home, I would arrange a time when he could come and I would be out of the house, even going so far as to ask him to text me when he was done and leaving. It was too hard for me to physically be in his presence.

With time, as I healed, and I might say a great deal of time, years really, I am able to be with him without it causing me to disintegrate as it once did.

It is tricky for you because the kids and grandchildren live with you so it's their home as well and with the babies, there might not be a "better" place for them to see her.

I know that you are feeling pretty bad and that is the way it is right now but it will not always be this way.

She just may not see it as you do..in that she has made a decision that she feels is right for her and so is not caught up in the emotional distress from the one who has been abandoned, rejected and betrayed.

I could accept it on face value and "if" she turns up while I'm there I can display some of the changes I've made, not that she will believe them anyway.

I may be off base here but this sounds to me that you feel that somehow the changes you have made will affect her one way or another.

Remember, this is not about you and not about your marriage, it really isn't so any changes are for your own sake, not for her to see or not see if that makes sense..because it won't change a darn thing.

My own way of dealing with my daughter and this broken family is to consider what works best for her. Our situation was rather unique because for many years we all lived in separate countries. But I am not sorry for each time I have helped to make something happen so that her dad can visit with her, and even be included in special times in her life...as I look back, it took a great deal out of me in the early days to do that, but I do know she appreciates that I could include him in our lives for many many reasons.

[Pacman]

I think that sometimes we overthink things and read into their actions things that in actuality are not at all what their actions mean.

MLCers do change, but not completely. Many still wish to see their kids and grandchildren as well as live a different life that they feel they must have. Some MLCers are even comfortable seeing us (much more comfortable than we are seeing them) because in their minds, they think this is best and often they cannot see that this is not what we desire.

Unless she is a freaking idiot she knows how much I am hurt over her choice.

This hurts us deeply. If they want to be gone, then go and leave us alone once and for all......but it doesn't work that way unless they are a vanisher.
I don't see her wanting to see her kids and grandchildren as cake eating. By putting it out to you, she is actually asking you if it is ok, so in some ways, she is being somewhat respectful.

Nothing respectful in asking me if she can visit the kids in the house she left. In bold this in a nutshell.

It is so hard to know what boundaries need to be in place. I did not see my husband for 19 months, if he needed to come pick something up from our home, I would arrange a time when he could come and I would be out of the house, even going so far as to ask him to text me when he was done and leaving. It was too hard for me to physically be in his presence.

I did just that last week when she collected more of her gear. And now all of a sudden she wants to visit the kids?

With time, as I healed, and I might say a great deal of time, years really, I am able to be with him without it causing me to disintegrate as it once did.

Yeah I know but geez every time I think I'm getting better at detachment she does something like this.

I know that you are feeling pretty bad and that is the way it is right now but it will not always be this way.
She just may not see it as you do..in that she has made a decision that she feels is right for her and so is not caught up in the emotional distress from the one who has been abandoned, rejected and betrayed.

She would have to be blind to not know how much it is crapful.

I may be off base here but this sounds to me that you feel that somehow the changes you have made will affect her one way or another.

Remember, this is not about you and not about your marriage, it really isn't so any changes are for your own sake, not for her to see or not see if that makes sense. .because it won't change a darn thing.

Yes you are right. I devoted 23 years of my life to this person and whilst I made mistakes (hey no one is perfect) I am not a quitter who walks away from his family for some cheap ass scumbag.
If the things she didn't like and tells me the reasons for leaving aren't there anymore......I know, I'd have to prove over time.  Or is it all just BS on her part?
Then I'd be better off not having anything to do with her especially if she is still in contact with AP.
Well it should be about the marriage or she can get on her horse and ride off into the sunset of schmoopie land with that home wrecking turd.

As for other questions that have been asked I will attempt to get back to them this week.

Thanks all.

[xyzcf]

We are deeply, deeply traumatized by what they did. Our fight/flight/freeze response is on high alert..what next will they do???

I was driving today, listening to a CD (I have a 20 year old sports car that only has a radio and CD player so I listen to old time favourites as I tool around), quite oblivious until I hear a song that has the OW's name in it....and quickly fast forward to the next tune. After so many years, her name causes an alarm in me that has certain physical responses like increased heart rate, dry mouth, feeling like I am on alert..this is years after BD.

Our reactions are very real and I didn't realize until years after BD that I had PTSD. At first I thought, ok so he left me..big deal, I'll survive only it wasn't that simple.

That you can express how you feel is a good thing PacMan. Focus on you, your feelings and what eases things for you.

One of the many good suggestions my therapist made was to freeze frame what was happening, make the picture smaller in my mind, decrease the sound, mute the color until it became tolerable..until I could breathe normally.

Over time, we find what brings us back to equilibrium.

I don't know, I have a sense that my husband is not aware of the hurt and pain he caused to either me or our daughter..because like the teenager he is, only his "happiness" matters. Doesn't excuse what he has done, either that or he compartmentalizes the whole thing so he doesn't have to see the damage that he has done.

[Thunder]

Pacman I have been reading along for awhile and I just wanted to say...I understand how you are feeling.   Maybe you are not in a place yet where you can have her visit your home and there is nothing wrong with that.

You are working on getting to a good place and by allowing her to come over now may not be the best thing for YOU....and that's ok.  You deserve this time to try to heal.

There is always the option of telling your kids she wants to see them and the grandkids and it may be best for them to arrange something outside of your home to do that if they want.  Maybe go where she is living.  There is no reason for her to come to your home.

No it's not cake eating but it is sure not understanding, or being sensitive, to the hurt she has caused you.
In true MLC form. 

[Pacman]

It's like she is reading from the same playbook.
"It's time for you to heal" is exactly what she said.

Could I take it as an opportunity to be the lighthouse?

She sent the message to DIL last Thursday which also happens to be the day W's mum went in for a brain scan for dementia.....??

Could it be anchor checking?

Is she possibly seeing  what she is losing?

So many thoughts arrrrrrrrgh

[JohnnyBravo]

I can't imagine how tough it is being intertwined with family. Her contact could be any of those things, or none of those things. We have more and quicker access to information than ever before, but the one thing we can't figure out is what's going on in the LBS head.

You can be the lighthouse whenever you have the strength to. She doesn't need to see you be the lighthouse; It's more of a decision you make. But your kids will certainly see it, and your growth and strength will benefit them directly.

[Pacman]

I can't imagine how tough it is being intertwined with family. Her contact could be any of those things, or none of those things. We have more and quicker access to information than ever before, but the one thing we can't figure out is what's going on in the LBS head.

I can tell you what is going on in the LBS head......It's the MLC head that is the one that is unknown.....Hahahaha

[Thunder]

Pacman you need to be the lighthouse for you and your kids right now.  It won't matter to her.  Nothing you do will matter to her.

Trust me your family needs you way more than she does.
She needs space to fight her demons all by herself, with no help from you.
Just let her go.

No she is not anchor checking.  She just feels entitled to do what she wants and thinks you will just allow it.

There may be a time when she will notice all the good changes you have made, but it's not now.
Just keep making them for you and your kids and grandkids and some day she may notice them.
But by then you just may not care.

[JohnnyBravo]

I can tell you what is going on in the LBS head......It's the MLC head that is the one that is unknown.....Hahahaha

I work in a world of acronyms, you'd think I'd get this one right! I'll leave the error in place so your comment makes sense.

Thanks!

JB

[Pacman]

Pacman you need to be the lighthouse for you and your kids right now.  It won't matter to her.  Nothing you do will matter to her.

Trust me your family needs you way more than she does.
She needs space to fight her demons all by herself, with no help from you.
Just let her go.

No she is not anchor checking.  She just feels entitled to do what she wants and thinks you will just allow it.

There may be a time when she will notice all the good changes you have made, but it's not now.
Just keep making them for you and your kids and grandkids and some day she may notice them.
But by then you just may not care.

So it doesn't matter whether I let her or not?
What if it isn't MLC?
I "think" it is, based on some of her actions and comments and "seems" to be following the script SO......I need to let go and see what she wants whilst working on myself?....even though my ultimate goal is to work things out.
I don't believe she is a bad person but made a "bad" choice.
By allowing her to visit the children at home am I making myself a door mat?
The hardest part is letting go and seeing someone you still love destroy themselves and their family for a lecherous opportunistic filth bag who lives with his ex wife and posts all sorts of conspiracy theories.

I have so much to learn and develop in this sadly.

[JohnnyBravo]

Even if it's not MLC, from what I've read (Divorce Busters, etc), the same rules apply: Ignore the chaos, work on yourself, give space.

If it's not MLC, it sounds like there are more opportunities for contact (i.e. not as bad if you reach out once in a while), and you could "write out your faults" and all that, but in any case "less is more." In MLC, you're fully the enemy from her perspective, so it's best to lust let her contact, and decide if/when/how you are going to respond. (If it's "less is more" for non-MLC, it's "zero is more" for MLC.) NO relationship talk, but it sounds like you're already good on that part.

Hang in there, and keep in mind they're picking someone lesser, whether it's a conscious choice or not.

JB

[Treasur]

So it doesn't matter whether I let her or not?
What if it isn't MLC?
I "think" it is, based on some of her actions and comments and "seems" to be following the script SO......I need to let go and see what she wants whilst working on myself?....even though my ultimate goal is to work things out.
I don't believe she is a bad person but made a "bad" choice.
By allowing her to visit the children at home am I making myself a door mat?

It doesn’t matter....in terms of influencing HER behaviour, thoughts or feelings towards you or your marriage.
It might matter to you or your family....you in terms of your emotional stability, your sons bc they may or may not wish to see her. (And have you asked them yet, Pac?)

Imho it also doesn’t matter if it is MLC or ‘just’ a crappy exit affair.....in terms of influencing HER. There is not a magic MLC playbook  . It might matter in terms of how you see her behaviour, it might matter in terms of how much of a crazy show her own life becomes. But it is still her behaviour and her choice and facts are facts.

I think you define what makes you feel like a doormat or not. Or how much you are trying to ‘nice’ her back or even manipulate her by how you behave. From the cheap seats, I think she left but still has a normal right to want to see her kids and grandkids. If they want to....and that’s between them bc they are adults. Really not your job to fix or break. You may or may not feel comfortable with her coming over to the home she left....or doing so when you are there....and that’s your choice. Jmo, but bc you are (understandably) angry right now, it might be better for you to keep your distance so that you don’t get sucked in to saying or doing anything you might regret but that is just my opinion.

But the simple message you are struggling with I think is, MLC or not, HER current choices are all abut her. YOUR choices on how you deal with what has happened need to be primarily about YOU and then your kids as a close second. Which always means accepting the current facts and that this is a marathon not a sprint. And a marathon needs a strong calm focused head and heart. Which usually means caring less about what she thinks about you, either good or bad, and detaching more so you feel less need to guess or try to game it. Bc tbh that’s just an exhausting crazymaking way to live, isn’t it?

I’m a bit confused, Pac....does your w contact you directly about these things or go via your DILs or sons?

And what are you doing about getting support for your own mental health right now?

[Pacman]

So she wants to pop in after her work. When she knows I won't be here because I finish much later than her.

I could be the bigger person but don't feel comfortable with what she is asking.

If she can't see me face to face then I feel she wants to keep AP plus a connection with the children......but in a house I'm paying for and providing a roof over their heads......
Wants best of both worlds without me....hmmmm?

She contacted DIL 1st last Thursday and got no response. So asked me the same question today.

They can and do see her anytime they want at the friends place she is staying at.

I'm not happy with her trying to appease the boys and get them to "love her" when she is worried they won't like her when she "moves on" as she has said.

If she wants to move on then do it but don't play me like a fool....She already did that once.

[Kind18]

You’re obviously not comfortable with this, so honesty is the best policy.

“Im not comfortable with this. Perhaps another time.”

I have so much to learn and develop in this sadly.

A professional will help you through this, while rediscovering yourself.

Don’t underestimate the damage she has done to you, the effect it will have on your family… nor how hard it is to navigate this without professional help.

[Treasur]

could be the bigger person but don't feel comfortable with what she is asking.

As Kind says, there’s your answer. Just say that.

[Pacman]

"I'm not comfortable with this because you are still seeing your  AP and want to buy into a family  life that WE should have been sharing together. And if your not comfortable seeing me in the house that I'm paying for and providing a roof over our children and grandchildren then no."

Is what id love to send but of course won't.

So I'm going to ignore for the time being until I calm down and think about my response......it's been suggested I LD her.

"You always were so considerate and I'm glad that you are thinking about the boys and that you want to support them.. But I have spoken to the boys and they aren't comfortable with you coming over. So May be at a later time"

[Treasur]

Ah Pac, you’re angry and cycling....normal for an LBS at your stage....but that means you are overthinking it. By all means think before you act, but there is also merit to responding so it is off your mental radar screen perhaps?
Less is more.
Just say no, that doesn’t work for you and suggest she makes other arrangements with your sons directly. (And make sure your sons know that and your boundaries regarding her coming to visit at your home  )
No emotion, just facts. No snark, no explanation, no justification, no nicey nicey. Just civil and factual and very few words. I’d aim for less than 10 if you can - treat it as a challenge lol.

[Pacman]

@Treasur I have asked S19 and he doesn't want her here.
He is still angry.
I've offered to both boys whatever they want I will do for them.
She now knows I've seen the message but I'm not going to respond yet.
I'm not being an arse but need to think about my response so it's factual without being pushy needy or judgemental.

[Pacman]

I ended up saying...."you can talk to the boys about what they want"

Response...."No worries thanks"

[Kind18]

I know this is hard Pac.

But all you’ve done is put your kids in the middle.

If you don’t want her there, just own it.

You can’t be afraid of her any more, or make decisions based on how she may or may not react, whether she will go crazy, or blame, or silent treatment you, or tell you kids bad things about you.

This is part of detachment. What she does, how she reacts, what she wants - that’s her problem to deal with. You aren’t responsible for that, or for teaching her a lesson, or keeping her happy.

All you’re responsible for is Pac.

“I don’t feel comfortable with that right now.”

[Kind18]

You can’t MAKE someone do something. Especially an MLCer.

If you tell them the sky is blue, they’ll swear it is orange.

NOTHING you do or say will move her or make her wake up.

[UrsaMajor]

I know this is hard Pac.

But all you’ve done is put your kids in the middle.

Sorry but I really have to disagree here - They are not 10 or 12. They are of legal age and are, therefore, entitled to make their own choices. If it has been explained to them that Pac doesn't feel comfortable with her there while he isn't, then his son's can make their own arrangements - that is what adults do.

If you don’t want her there, just own it.

This I can agree with but MLCW isn't coming to see Pac. She is coming ostensibly to see her kids and whether she is a Bat-Snot Crazy Mid-Lifer or not, she is still the mother... However, the kids have the right/responsibility to also say "Uh, mom, I'm thinking that is not a good idea while you are doing the mattress mambo with the Pond Scum." if that is the way they feel. For Pac to summarily/preemptively deny her though risks backfiring if the one or the other DID want to see MLCW.

Since S19 has already stated that he is NOT interested in entertaining MLCW, then part of the issue is already solved. If DIL/S do want to see her and they know Pac is not cool with her coming over, then it is incumbent on them to come up with an alternate plan. I mean, they were old enough to have their own child so they are old enough to make alternative arrangements to see the Body Snatcher Pos that was once known "mom" if they so desire...

[Pacman]

I was trying to give the boys some adulthood but guess that was the wrong thing to do?

I told them I'm happy to go with their choices and would support them.

[UrsaMajor]

I was trying to give the boys some adulthood but guess that was the wrong thing to do?

I told them I'm happy to go with their choices and would support them.

Absolutely the RIGHT thing to do in my book... MLCW broke their relationship too and it is up to them and her if they want to or can repair it. It is totally Independent of YOUR R to her or to them....

[Pacman]

I was trying to give the boys some adulthood but guess that was the wrong thing to do?

I told them I'm happy to go with their choices and would support them.

Absolutely the RIGHT thing to do in my book... MLCW broke their relationship too and it is up to them and her if they want to or can repair it. It is totally Independent of YOUR R to her or to them....

Thanks.
Sometimes the right thing and the hard thing to do are the same.
I don't want to come between them and their mother. But they can choose and I will respect their choice even though in may not be in agreeance with mine.

[Kind18]

Sorry but I really have to disagree here - They are not 10 or 12. They are of legal age and are, therefore, entitled to make their own choices. If it has been explained to them that Pac doesn't feel comfortable with her there while he isn't, then his son's can make their own arrangements - that is what adults do.

Fair enough Ursa . But I feel adults also state their position. They don’t hide behind “you’ll have to organise that with the kids” to avoid pissing her off.

“I don’t feel comfortable with that. You’ll have to make your own arrangements with the kids.”

Perhaps that’s would have been the best in this scenario.

[Pacman]

Kind18 my stance hasn't changed from day 1 and I see no benefit about flogging that dead horse.
Say it once mean it then move on.
Everyone knows my feelings.
Repeating my stance accomplishes nothing IMO.

[UrsaMajor]

“I don’t feel comfortable with that. You’ll have to make your own arrangements with the kids.”

This is a reasonable reply that covers both issues.

Kind18 my stance hasn't changed from day 1 and I see no benefit about flogging that dead horse.
Say it once mean it then move on.
Everyone knows my feelings.
Repeating my stance accomplishes nothing IMO.

Unfortunately, with a Mid-Lifer, you can repeat your stance until the cows come home but they are like

and, if it doesn't fit their narrative or their revisionist history, you can just as well

[xyzcf]

Regardless of what you decide Pac, you are not being a "doormat". I really do not like some of the words that are used to describe an impossible situation......we are human beings with emotions and feelings and hurting people who are just trying to do the best that we can..."doormat" "cake eating" "being their anchor or lighthouse" are only words...words to describe our "humaness."

They can and do see her anytime they want at the friends place she is staying at.

That is the answer to my question concerning does she have somewhere else to see her children and grandbabies. There is no need to see them at your house and so you are not under any obligation to play "happy family" with her. I also agree that adult kids need to create their own relationship with the parent who has left. I think you said that you encourage them to do so and that to me is important.

So I'm going to ignore for the time being until I calm down and think about my response......it's been suggested I LD her.

"You always were so considerate and I'm glad that you are thinking about the boys and that you want to support them.. But I have spoken to the boys and they aren't comfortable with you coming over. So May be at a later time"

I have seen this term "LD" on facebook. I doubt anyone on Hero's Spouse would support it because to me, it seems like you are trying to do something to turn them back to you with "encouragement and supportive words". I get the concept but I have not seen any technique really that has any success regarding the end result.

I have always treated my husband "kindly" but it comes from the real me, not some made up "approach"...because if he cannot handle who I am, who I have become then he best stay away if that makes sense.

This is not easy Pac and it is draining and exhausting and takes up way too much head space. Trust your intuition. You are the one who knows what is best for you and from reading the past few days it doesn't seem like you want her in your house and you have no obligation to do so.

[Thunder]

I agree with xyzcf, it's done and over.  You replied, she said ok, now let them figure it out.  As long as they know how you feel.

Don't be surprised if she never makes those arrangements.  That wasn't her plan.

[Pacman]

Thanks all.

Yes it has been answered and I am comfortable with my decision.
Not to punish her but I am not comfortable with her proposal and I will support whatever decision sons and DIL's make.
My battle is with her not with them and not between them and her.

I am not going to be super nice and bend over but I'm not an arse either.

I have been seeing a counsellor and have another appointment tomorrow. I go every 2 weeks and try and take at least 1 thing from each session to build upon. I am much more stable than when BD hit but still fluctuate (nowhere near as much).

Writing stuff here has prevented me from lashing out with anger/hurt/betrayal at her and helps get the thoughts out of my head.

[Pacman]

I seriously can't wait for my counselling tomorrow.
Just had to sit through a suicide and self harm presentation at work and it absolutely triggered me.

I did have thoughts earlier in the year and was welfare checked by police twice. No thoughts now though.

On top of this it brought back memories of seeing my father hanging from a rope in our backyard.
He had no pulse and wasn't breathing for 15 minutes whilst I worked on him until I brought him back.
He is still alive today.

[Treasur]

I’m sorry that you had that experience in your life, Pac, but glad that your father survived. Glad too that you are seeing an IC bc it is pretty common for LBS that the new trauma of BD might prod old traumas that we need support in unpicking. On top of that, sobriety is hard but so important at a time in your life when you need to be as clear-eyed and constructive as you can be.

I was suicidal, off and on, for a long time. Others here know that dark place too. You are not alone in feeling how you do and we will not judge you for it. At the same time, I hope you know from your IC that there is a big space between suicidal thinking and suicidal doing.....accepting the first as a transitory thing, bc our feelings do go up and down, can help us stay away from feeling the second.

It is probably hard to believe, Pac, but things will not always feel exactly the way they do now, so your job is to outlast this tough time. And we know you can bc we didn’t believe it either and yet we did....and there is nothing unique about us. Keep going, my friend, a day at a time. And hunt down the small joys when you feel you can’t get rid of the big sorrows bc those small joys can get you through an hour or a day x

[Pacman]

I feel that people here get me and what I'm going through.
I got attacked as being a liar and "drunk posting" and seeking sympathy on DB. I am brutally honest in what I've done and doing to fix myself and I'm not after sympathy. It took 2 (3) to get to this point.
Yes I have had 2 slip ups this week where I drank BUT not to the excess I have in the past. Yes it was a mistake and I regret doing it.
I have got AA and my counselor and am so much better as a person than what I was with work still being done.

Having said that I am human and trying the best I can with what has been served up to me. Partly my fault and partly hers for having the affair.
I'm dealing with my issues and won't leave a stone unturned to fix me for the future.

[MadLuv]

I can so relate. Sometimes it can feel we are being held to a different standard than the MLC’er. I started smoking and have been judged by my own daughter, but my S28 told his sister in his own moment of clarity that he recognizes that I have been through hell and everyone sometimes need temporary vices to get through, but he knows I wont stay here.

I also had suicidal moments mapped out, but as I told my IC I just always remember I survived those moments as they are temporary. Peaks and valleys come and go and When I get to those low points I just hold on and wait for them to pass. 

[xyzcf]

Just reading along Pacman.....don't like hearing of any one of us being criticized for our thoughts.

There is nothing easy about this and yes, I think most of us have wondered if life is worth living.

Glad you have AA and your IC....addictions are very difficult to conquer at the best of times and when our lives are blown apart, we turn to something, anything to make us feel better.

Today is a new day, each day is and we get through it as best we can.

[5hilmerton]

Hey Pacman, so glad you are reaching out to this forum.  I too have been criticized for the content of my statements.  I just moved on until i felt comfortable sharing in my own way with my own words. Hang in there we all have our internal and external turmoil to work on.  BTW what does DB mean?

5hil

[JohnnyBravo]

I got attacked as being a liar and "drunk posting" and seeking sympathy on DB.

WTF? I'm glad I never dove very far into that site. I don't see anything wrong with sympathy, and heck, I'm here for some sympathy. I suppose it's more like camaraderie or compassion since we're all in the LBS* boat, and advice or tough love, but whatever.

5hil, DB = Divorce Busters, a pro-marriage counseling org founded by Michele Weiner-Davis. Their advice seems good for "normal" breakups, but doesn't really apply to MLC. I purchased one of her online courses, and the one piece of advice about MLC is "If you think it's a mid-life crisis, don't tell them that!" The other advice is applicable, i.e. healing and taking care of yourself, moving forward as if this is final so you can heal, etc. But I've seen some of the forum, and it can be a bunch of bitter wankers. The wankers here are much better.

*Please note I got it right this time!

JB

[Treasur]

The wankers here are much better.

Thanks, JB, for my laugh of the day 

[Pacman]

Had a great IC today.
Dove into some hard subjects and got a lot of value.

On another note "the visiting here" she wants.
She pressured them last night saying I said it was OK.
Actually I said it was up to them.
They have all told her that they aren't comfortable with her here and would rather visit her.

"Ok but if I see your cars there I'm stopping in any way " lol.
Whatever fits her narrative.

I'm staying out of it completely.

[Kind18]

Had a great IC today.
Dove into some hard subjects and got a lot of value.

On another note "the visiting here" she wants.
She pressured them last night saying I said it was OK.
Actually I said it was up to them.
They have all told her that they aren't comfortable with her here and would rather visit her.

"Ok but if I see your cars there I'm stopping in any way " lol.
Whatever fits her narrative.

I'm staying out of it completely.

This is a great update!!! Well done Pac.

Make sure you keep going back to more IC appointments. Think of it as regularly needing to fill your fuel tank as your drive from LBS bomb day to happiness.

She has obviously and blatantly lied - telling the kids you said it was okay to come over. But that’s what MLCers do, no point even bringing it up with her or the kids. An early stage LBS will try and out them and their lies. A zen, well practiced LBS knows there’s no point correcting something which will be followed by a thousand more lies. Nor is it worth the emotional heartache of having anything to with her.

I’d go so far as to say it may have been her baiting you - ie she tells the kids you said it was fine, and then waits for you to explode at her. Then she gets the attention she wants. It’s like giving a dog attention (yelling) when they cr*p on the carpet … for MLC crazies, any attention is good attention.

Don’t engage, stay out of it, zero f***s, concentrate on living your life.

[Treasur]

Well done, Pac 

Not surprised your wife manipulated the situation and lied. Tbh I would be tempted to show my boundaries with action not words and be out doing something nicely GAL when/if she comes over. Bc you don’t need to see her if you don’t want to, or play ‘fake’ happy family or listen to any of her drama or sadz.

Sadly your kids - as others kids here have had to do - will need to do their own work on boundaries for themselves in dealing with someone who really only cares about what she wants and thinks, who is unreliable and untrustworthy.....and you will have to let them learn the hard way although you can role model it for them by how you behave.

But well done on digging deep in IC 

[UrsaMajor]

On another note "the visiting here" she wants.
She pressured them last night saying I said it was OK.
Actually I said it was up to them.
They have all told her that they aren't comfortable with her here and would rather visit her.

"Ok but if I see your cars there I'm stopping in any way " lol.
Whatever fits her narrative.

I'm staying out of it completely.

VERY good idea.... to stay out of it completely...

That "Ok but if I see your cars there I'm stopping in any way" is SO "MLC-Script for Dummies 101" - No concern for others or their wishes/boundaries/desires, only


It may take her stopping by and getting no response from the kids or being told (by them) that they had expressed their wishes and for her to go against them is NOT acceptable to get her to stop playing games but there is no guarantee there either.... MLC'ers seem to have problems with boundaries of others, especially is it goes against their own wishes...

[Pacman]

I'm so tired and exhausted.

I had a really good day after my counselling and thought I've got this. BUT

The friends she is staying with popped over and stayed out the front.
I was fine but then went out to see them and my anger kicked in again.

How are they so blind to the fact she is using them while still seeing the AP??

Supporting her 100% while they don't get what I'm going through. Makes me sad and angry. My friendship with them is now broken. I can't just pop around and I can tell that she has put them in an awkward position but they have accepted it and continue enabling her.

I know I shouldn't be angry but they made promises to kick her out if AP is still in the picture and they know she lied to them, me and the boys during her affair.

The reality is she has no consequence and isn't living her "New life" at all while I feel like I'm struggling.

On a brighter note she has been told again that the kids don't want her here.
One less thing for me to worry about.

On a completely side note.

My father used to beat my mother in front of me.
She had an affair.
He went and beat the guy up.
Served time for it.
He got shot with a crossbow by the affair partner.
The AP sexually abused my sister.
My parents divorced.
Dad as you know tried to commit suicide.

I asked her tonight how the hell they got back together after all that......

Her response "we were meant to be together".
Like seriously?

I've learnt by seeing what I saw as a kid that I didn't want to be like him and haven't.

I didn't beat her.
I didn't track down AP as easy as it would be.
I haven't and won't have another relationship while we are "still married"

[xyzcf]

I'm so tired and exhausted.

I had a really good day after my counselling and thought I've got this. BUT

We have good days and we have bad days. Regardless, underneath, the trauma is still there and that is exhausting.

You have had other very serious  trauma's in your life. The fact that you have chosen to take a different route in your life shows that you have what is called "resistance" and that will get you through this.

Thank you for being so open and honest with how you are feeling.

Counseling is an ongoing thing. I went for two years initially and then another 2 many years later with a different type of therapist. I would not hesitate to go back to her if I needed to because things come up sometimes...but I think I have the "tools" I need to handle most things now. I still get unhinged from time to time. It's not unusal to still have strong feelings several years later.

Have a Happy Thanksgiving..I know the holidays make it feel harder.

[Kind18]

Hang in there Pac.

The friends she is staying with popped over and stayed out the front.
I was fine but then went out to see them and my anger kicked in again.

How are they so blind to the fact she is using them while still seeing the AP??

Supporting her 100% while they don't get what I'm going through. Makes me sad and angry. My friendship with them is now broken. I can't just pop around and I can tell that she has put them in an awkward position but they have accepted it and continue enabling her.

I know I shouldn't be angry but they made promises to kick her out if AP is still in the picture and they know she lied to them, me and the boys during her affair.

The reality is she has no consequence and isn't living her "New life" at all while I feel like I'm struggling.

The only person PacMan controls… is PacMan.

You don’t control her behaviour, her thoughts, her lack of morals. You don’t control how other people view the situation, or how they behave towards MLCer or you.

You seem to cycle constantly between periods of peace and resignation, to anger and resentment when her behaviour pushes your buttons.

I think you should explain this to your IC, and ask for specific tools to prevent getting triggered and upset.

NOTHING YOU DO RIGHT NOW WILL CHANGE HER OR HER FRIENDS. Building resilience is important, because none of this is going to change. She will continue to be a crazy MLC, do dumb sh*t, say dumb sh*t and lie to everyone about it.

Your solution and happiness does not lie in changing that. It lies in you accepting and expecting it so that it no longer bothers you. As sure as night follows day, MLCers will be crazy… and their friends will support it.

[Pacman]

Hang in there Pac.


The only person PacMan controls… is PacMan.

You don’t control her behaviour, her thoughts, her lack of morals. You don’t control how other people view the situation, or how they behave towards MLCer or you.

You seem to cycle constantly between periods of peace and resignation, to anger and resentment when her behaviour pushes your buttons.

I think you should explain this to your IC, and ask for specific tools to prevent getting triggered and upset.

NOTHING YOU DO RIGHT NOW WILL CHANGE HER OR HER FRIENDS. Building resilience is important, because none of this is going to change. She will continue to be a crazy MLC, do dumb sh*t, say dumb sh*t and lie to everyone about it.

Your solution and happiness does not lie in changing that. It lies in you accepting and expecting it so that it no longer bothers you. As sure as night follows day, MLCers will be crazy… and their friends will support it.

They are supposed to be my friends.
And yes I need to be more consistent and resilient I know.

Question .....was her affair an exit affair?
She did cut contact with him at my insistence (and also because she said it was the right thing to do) but since leaving has recontacted him (not sure in what capacity as she would lie about it anyway).


Thank you

[Pacman]

So she did it.

Just rocked up to the house to visit the kids unannounced even though she was told they didn't want her to.

Bloody MLC mind. Obviously she believes her narrative.

[HeavenlyFocus]

They are supposed to be my friends.
And yes I need to be more consistent and resilient I know.

Hi Pac,

I have lost some friends since the separation, some friends have stuck by my wife, and some have chose to support me.   The devastation from the relationship breakup is significant.   All I have done is try to focus on my new life maintaining some of the relationships and looking to build others.   Recommend you let go of those that choose a path away from you.

Question .....was her affair an exit affair?
She did cut contact with him at my insistence (and also because she said it was the right thing to do) but since leaving has recontacted him (not sure in what capacity as she would lie about it anyway).

I'm not sure it matters PAC what contact she has had.  All you can do is set your clear boundaries which you have done.   My W still hasn't even admitted her affair to me and the potential relationship to my girls.   All I can do is focus on the boundaries that I have set.   1.  Focus on God  2.  No relationships with OM  3.  Work on our marriage.  For now I am leaving her be and trying not to  focus on what she is doing.

And I would let your adult kids handle her unannounced visits as Treasur suggested and UM confirmed.  They will have to set their own boundaries with their Mother as she wants to visit them.

Hang in there as you work through this difficult time.

HF

[Pacman]

Hi Pac,

I have lost some friends since the separation, some friends have stuck by my wife, and some have chose to support me.   The devastation from the relationship breakup is significant.   All I have done is try to focus on my new life maintaining some of the relationships and looking to build others.   Recommend you let go of those that choose a path away from you.



I'm not sure it matters PAC what contact she has had.  All you can do is set your clear boundaries which you have done.   My W still hasn't even admitted her affair to me and the potential relationship to my girls.   All I can do is focus on the boundaries that I have set.   1.  Focus on God  2.  No relationships with OM  3.  Work on our marriage.  For now I am leaving her be and trying not to  focus on what she is doing.

And I would let your adult kids handle her unannounced visits as Treasur suggested and UM confirmed.  They will have to set their own boundaries with their Mother as she wants to visit them.

Hang in there as you work through this difficult time.

HF

This right here in bold ? I just read the last couple of pages of your story and you say that you are about to sign divorce papers but you are working on your marriage. Did I read that right?
And 2. No relationships with OM....what do you mean by that?

[HeavenlyFocus]

Hi PAC,

Sorry if I wasn’t clear. Those are my boundaries if my W  ever reconsiders ending our relationship. The signing of the divorce papers doesn’t necessarily mean that I end my stand. In all honesty, I am not sure what I will do after the divorce is finalized.

What I do know is that I have clear boundaries in what I want in the event that my W/XW ever comes out of her crises and wants to reconcile. This is her divorce and I am going to let her be if chooses to D and move on.

I also am leaving the option open in the event she reconsiders.  Just going to work on my life as if she is not coming back but still leaving the door open if she changes her mind.  I will be ok no matter what happens.

Hope this helps clear things up.

HF

[Pacman]

Hi PAC,

Sorry if I wasn’t clear. Those are my boundaries if my W  ever reconsiders ending our relationship. The signing of the divorce papers doesn’t necessarily mean that I end my stand. In all honesty, I am not sure what I will do after the divorce is finalized.

What I do know is that I have clear boundaries in what I want in the event that my W/XW ever comes out of her crises and wants to reconcile. This is her divorce and I am going to let her be if chooses to D and move on.

I also am leaving the option open in the event she reconsiders.  Just going to work on my life as if she is not coming back but still leaving the door open if she changes her mind.  I will be ok no matter what happens.

Hope this helps clear things up.

HF

Understand fully.
You are so much further into this flaming crap sandwich than me.
Best wishes. Sounds like you've got this.

[OffRoad]

So when she walked up to the house, did anyone tell her she wasn't welcome? Ignore her? Leave the room?. Or did everyone just allow it with no mention that she was not welcome and was told so?

Boundaries are important. You can't control her just doing what she wants, but you can control your own actions.

Now, I  changed the locks on the house because he kept sneaking in and taking joint or my things without discussion. Nope, wasn't "legal" in the strictest sense. He would be within his rights to call the cops. But he didn't and I never had to come home to a house with missing items again. They could not arrest me for changing the locks, just force me to give him a key should it have come to that. On the day he came to get his desk a year and a half later, my son called to tell me his dad was coming because xh only told S(then 17). I arrived shortly after xh did and he was VERY upset I was there. Too bad, I was not letting anything else of mine leave the house. (He wasn't even legally entitled to the desk at that point, but I didn't want it). I stacked up what remained of his and told him take it or it's getting trashed. He whined that he didn't have much room on the truck he was renting. Not my issue. Those are boundaries and I enforced them.

If you let your W do whatever she wants with nothing said or done on your side (kids have the same responsibility), you are also enabling her.

Eta: If enabling her is your choice, so be it. Just be aware that is what you are doing. Allowing poor behavior with no consequences. 

[Pacman]

I have put all her stuff outside in a wardrobe so if she does come here it triggers her. Not my intention but a consequence.

I will have to talk to the boys a bit more about my boundaries and hope they respect them.

And she no longer has a key as I took it and her wedding rings away from her on the day she decided to move out.

She took the rings worried I'd flush them down the toilet haha.

And as for your signature.....
If life gives you lemons....you make avgolemono.!!!!❤🇬🇷

[Pacman]

I just finished watching The Kominsky Method on Netflix and that is true unconditional love.

It tugged at my heart strings and as much as I love her the feelings aren't reciprocated.

I'm not sure she will ever understand the situation for what it is or has been or could be.

My s19 and his partner are going through a really tough time mentally and I'm trying to support them even though I am going through the hardest time of my life.

It sucks.

[OffRoad]

It never rains, but it pours it seems.

If you and your S19 and partner can all lean in to hold each other up, it benefits all of you. Perhaps helping them can help you.

And mmmmm, avgolemono sounds good!

[Pacman]

Do you ever get to the point where you say screw this.
Force them to make "real " decisions and suffer the consequences of their decision to have an affair and leave?

But then your brain kicks in and says you are dealing with an alien anyway and it wouldn't make a scrap of difference to them?

How does anyone have the strength to stand for a marriage and the person you love when they are so cold and heartless?

[Ready2Transform]

Do you ever get to the point where you say screw this.
Force them to make "real " decisions and suffer the consequences of their decision to have an affair and leave?

But then your brain kicks in and says you are dealing with an alien anyway and it wouldn't make a scrap of difference to them?

How does anyone have the strength to stand for a marriage and the person you love when they are so cold and heartless?

Just remember that you don't have to make a black and white decision about standing or not. That will come, and the path to make any decision will come along with it. Right now you have a lot going on and just taking each day with an aim toward getting through it and finding your own ground and stability is more than enough responsibility. It's easy to want to look down the road to any potential change or consequences, but it can make the present sometimes feel heavier. Some days, early on, it's just about being able to breathe. Getting a good night's sleep. Eating at least one solid, healthy meal. Trust that time will help you sort it all out when it comes to her and how to sort it all out.

[Pacman]

It's been nearly 5 months since BD and moving out. From what I've read that's not a long time in MLC  but feels like forever to me.

Communication is getting less and less but I'm not reaching out to her and only giving short answers to her questions.

In her last message she asked how i was along with other stuff. I did not answer how i was going just responded to her other questions.

[HeavenlyFocus]

It's been nearly 5 months since BD and moving out. From what I've read that's not a long time in MLC  but feels like forever to me.

Communication is getting less and less but I'm not reaching out to her and only giving short answers to her questions.

In her last message she asked how i was along with other stuff. I did not answer how i was going just responded to her other questions.

Hi Pac,

Ready2 is right about not having to make any decisions regarding standing or not.   Also with the MLCer, we don't need to force them to do anything.  Ultimately, they are going to do what they are going to do.  My W is the one who is pushing for the D and she ultimately is starting to feel the consequences.

I recently dropped the rope and have completely let go.   I can sense in my W a small change since I have let go.  No more security blanket for her.   Does this mean she will come back, who knows.   All I can do is focus on my healing and find the joy with my kids, friends, and work with my new life.

I found a great thread by Dji76 back in 2015 where  he provided a list of some of the things he has learned.   What I really enjoyed about reading Dji76's journey is how he focused on his own healing.

Here is the thread.

https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=6544.0

As for me, I am still standing for the person my W used to be.   At the same time, I have no desire to be with the person that she is today.   For now I am going to focus on my own healing and will see where life goes.  I am open to all possibilities in my life.

HF 

[UrsaMajor]

In her last message she asked how i was along with other stuff.

Uhhmmmmmm ... What is THAT supposed to mean, right? How you are "along with other stuff?"  Typical MLC-ese

I did not answer how i was going just responded to her other questions.

Well done. No point in replying to a "throw-away" comment/question...

[Pacman]

Well done. No point in replying to a "throw-away" comment/question...

It's pretty obvious I'm not happy with the situation but not gunna play that game.

[Treasur]

Well done. No point in replying to a "throw-away" comment/question...

It's pretty obvious I'm not happy with the situation but not gunna play that game.

Part of detachment imho comes as you start seeing the game-y bits. And that they offer no benefit or utility to you at all but probably some kind of habit or ritual from the spouse which is about their need to feel better rather than a more genuine enquiry that might be followed by useful action that is actually helpful in your situation. It is remarkable how much Me Me Me drives these folks....but once you accept that, it gets less confusing if nothing else.

One doesn’t have to respond like an a$$hat, of course, but once you see it for what it is, it is easier to just not engage with it. Just as you did, Pac. Well done....you’re getting the hang of seeing the wood for the pointless trees 

[Curiosity]

This is all so hard, so frustrating, and so anger inducing… at least when too much focus is on MLC and the MLCer. And of course it will be at first - and for many of us, that will remain the case for a long time - because this necessarily affects the way we had envisioned and planned out our own futures. There are countless practical things to consider, on top of the fact that the person who was supposed to be our partner in life has been replaced by someone who (mostly) looks like the person we love, but who acts like a selfish, not-particularly-nice stranger.

At a certain point, though, we turn the focus to living each day on our own terms, not making big, sweeping changes to our lives but instead, taking life one step at a time, gradually carving out an existence that brings peace, purpose, and joy. Decisions about where the MLCer fits in - or about whether and when to find a new partner - need not be rushed. I feel like all of that seems to fall into place naturally as you work to build your own individual existence.

Saying this doesn’t make it any easier to reach that place - it takes time, and even if you found this board before BD and knew exactly what was going on at BD, you’re still going to have the emotional responses that come with all of this. And you are navigating them very well.

[JohnnyBravo]

Curiosity, this is a great summary. I'm going to put it in my "LBS scrapbook."

[Pacman]

Part of detachment imho comes as you start seeing the game-y bits. And that they offer no benefit or utility to you at all but probably some kind of habit or ritual from the spouse which is about their need to feel better rather than a more genuine enquiry that might be followed by useful action that is actually helpful in your situation. It is remarkable how much Me Me Me drives these folks....but once you accept that, it gets less confusing if nothing else.

One doesn’t have to respond like an a$$hat, of course, but once you see it for what it is, it is easier to just not engage with it. Just as you did, Pac. Well done....you’re getting the hang of seeing the wood for the pointless trees 

I'm not an A$$hat and as much as I'm angry I can't be that person....1 because it's not me and 2 because it will validate her choice.
I'm also not biting into her "how are you" questions. No answer will be good enough to respond to that and either way it will only be to satisfy her guilt or decision. "I'm great" will let her move on easier and "I'm struggling" will make me look weak.

This is all so hard, so frustrating, and so anger inducing… at least when too much focus is on MLC and the MLCer. And of course it will be at first - and for many of us, that will remain the case for a long time - because this necessarily affects the way we had envisioned and planned out our own futures. There are countless practical things to consider, on top of the fact that the person who was supposed to be our partner in life has been replaced by someone who (mostly) looks like the person we love, but who acts like a selfish, not-particularly-nice stranger.

At a certain point, though, we turn the focus to living each day on our own terms, not making big, sweeping changes to our lives but instead, taking life one step at a time, gradually carving out an existence that brings peace, purpose, and joy. Decisions about where the MLCer fits in - or about whether and when to find a new partner - need not be rushed. I feel like all of that seems to fall into place naturally as you work to build your own individual existence.

Saying this doesn’t make it any easier to reach that place - it takes time, and even if you found this board before BD and knew exactly what was going on at BD, you’re still going to have the emotional responses that come with all of this. And you are navigating them very well.

Yes it is hard and frustrating but I'm trying to just day by day it. I realise it's all I can do.
As for not making big decisions this is where I'm currently struggling. I want so much to push through the financial settlement and then I can act like she is never coming back. Not to say I haven't protected my financial position but she didn't engage the 1 time it was brought up and then another part of me thinks, you created this turd sandwich how about you take some ownership of your part in this and step up to the results of your decision?

But then, so I don't act when I'm emotional I take a step back and think about it. This is when I realise she is "sick" and doesn't give toss about the future....just the here and now. I can force the issue but have to decide when I'm ready to accept the end result, be it good or bad. Not there yet.......

[Pacman]

Just ruminating at work here and thinking what sort of spineless gutless piece of gutter trash would have no morals than to not back off when a married woman crosses over the line instead of being a real man and do the right thing.
This piece of crap is divorced but lives with his ex wife and has done so for 10 years.
So many times I've wanted to confront the piece of crap but realise it is pointless.

He blocked me straight away so he knew what was up (gutter trash) that he is.

My father did beat up my mother's affair partner and served time for it.
I said I would never be like that person and in some respects I feel I have succeeded and continue being better than him in not making the mistakes that I saw that I didn't like.

BUT it would be so satisfying for that pond scum to get what is coming to him as a home wrecker and oxygen thief.

I know W made the choice to have the affair but he should have backed off!!!!!!!
Just venting so that I don't make contact with the prick as he is not worthy of my time nor energy.
They are both broken and if this is what they think they want good luck to them..........

[UrsaMajor]

Pacman,

The Pond Scum is a SYMPTOM... and if it wasn't this particular Pond Scum, it would have been a different Pond Scum. You can choose to let this (or any other) Pond Scum continue to live in your head rent-free and take up valuable space and energy or you can choose to employ mental scum killer and realize that, regardless of Pond Scum's actions and decisions, ultimately, Pond Scum is just another player in the MLC Scenario.  Realize also that you do NOT know what your MLCW told Pond Scum about you... maybe she said that you were already separated or divorced so Pond Scum saw an easy mark....

Regardless, MLCW chose to pick up a side piece and, like I said, if it wasn't this particular pond scum it would have been a different one...

Remember, the Mid-Lifer is NOT looking for someone better than the LBS, they are looking for an Affair Down who is WORSE than themselves....

[Pacman]

Ok. So her mum's diagnosis came back.
She has early dementia plus  tumour on the brain and that doctors won't do anything.
W messaged me to tell me.

While I feel sad that it has come  to this I don't want to be her fallback.

And not sure how to respond. She doesn't know I've seen it yet.

"Sorry I had Bella last night and just saw your message. How is your dad and is there anything I can do for you?"

Is that too much to respond?

[Treasur]

My take fwiw is that how you respond is mostly a function of the kind of relationship you and your kids have/had with her parents and the boundaries that feel appropriate to you in your current relationship with your wife given the situation.

So, if you had a good relationship with them before, i’d reply with something like ‘i’m so sorry to hear that. I’ll reach out to your dad to see if there is anything I can do to help and will let the kids know’.

If you were not close, or if you feel post BD that they do not want contact with you, but your kids were close to them as grandparents, something more like ‘i’m sorry to hear that. I’ll let the kids know and suggest that they might want to pay a visit to see them.’

If neither are true - which was the case in my situation - i’d say something like ‘i’m really sorry to hear that. It must be a very difficult situation for all of you. Thank you for letting me know’.

The one thing that all of these suggestions have in common is a) nothing about your relationship bc tbh this isn’t about that, it’s about someone else’s tragedy and b) nothing about your w’s emotional needs or wants bc she fired you from that role when she left. I wouldn’t make any kind of open-ended offer of help until you have had time to consider what is actually appropriate for you now. And I wouldn’t route any help or support via her. One can be compassionate - and it is an awful situation for your in-laws, and perhaps for your w, so worthy of compassion - from an appropriate distance. But it is true too that your w is no longer your w or your friend bc by leaving she changed how your family works and the old rules no longer automatically apply. She may not be willing to see that and you may not like it, but it is a practical consequence of the choices your wife made, isn’t it? One doesn’t have to stomp around in anger to see that.....it just is how life works.

So my advice is think less about your response to your w and more about what kind of support you do or don’t want to offer your in-laws directly. Or what your sons want to do directly.

[UrsaMajor]

My take fwiw is that how you respond is mostly a function of the kind of relationship you and your kids have/had with her parents and the boundaries that feel appropriate to you in your current relationship with your wife given the situation.
<...snip...>
So my advice is think less about your response to your w and more about what kind of support you do or don’t want to offer your in-laws directly. Or what your sons want to do directly.

This is PURE gold - This has nothing to do with MLCW and everything to do with your (former?) in-laws... 

[Pacman]

Time to sleep on my response and my actions.

Rather than respond straight away.

I feel for the situation and know nothing I do will make our relationship better but also know the wrong move WILL make it worse.

I know I'm looking into the future but if her mum passes away could I turn up at the funeral if OH could be there?
NO I could not.

[Trustandlove]

Pacman, I was in this situation; my MIL had dementia, and passed away a number of years ago.  I went to see her in the nursing home on my own (and sometimes with my children, when that was possible); I spoke to my SIL, but never directly with my H about it unless he asked something specific.

When she died I decided that the kids and I (they were still quite young) would go to the funeral service no matter what, as it's a public ceremony, but that if any OW were to be attending the more private burial we wouldn't.  They certainly didn't want to be around an OW either (my H went through many).  In the end no OW came to either service.

This was appropriate for me as I always had a very good relationship with my MIL, and I wanted to be there for her regardless of how her son was behaving.  He left right when she was diagnosed, so she was still aware, and she was furious.  She went downhill quickly, though, so there wasn't much opportunity for her to say what she felt to him. 

I'm sure you will work out what is right for you.  I agree completely with everything treasur says. 

[Pacman]

I think I'm starting to understand how she has felt for years.

At the moment I'm focussing on my children and grandchildren and their wellbeing.
Trying to support them through some tough times and putting myself on the back burner.

Coupled with thinking of what She is going through with her mum.

Doesn't make it easier but I definitely have decided it's not about me. Unlike my previous self who was self centred.

It's going to be a long hard road either way but I've always had my heart on my sleeve with anything to do with my family unfortunately didn't show it being the typical male.

[xyzcf]

"Sorry I had Bella last night and just saw your message. How is your dad and is there anything I can do for you?"

Is that too much to respond?

Pacman, I learned a long time ago that what was best for me is to respond as I felt, without worrying about how if might sound to him or how it might affect him positively or negatively.

I am me and I am not going to change into someone who is fretting every time we have contact about what to say or do. I really do think about what I think/feel about the situation and then respond with how I am feeling. So far, that has worked really well for me.

[Pacman]

I left it overnight then responded this morning.
"I'm sorry to hear about your mum. It must be hard for all of you and that I would talk to the boys"
She responded with "I hear you're dealing with some dramas at home" as she spoke to s22 last night.

Let that one slip straight past me. No need for a response back to her. What happens in my house is now my business to deal with.

Previously I would have tried the whole "Yes it's extremely tough" trying to guilt her but I'm a better smarter person now.

[Kind18]

Good for you Pac.

Another victory because you took your time, focused on the issue (sick exMIL) and didn’t respond emotionally or to illicit a response.

Your originally proposed message had “sorry I had Bella and just saw your message.” What are you apologising for? You respond when and how you want. If she doesn’t get the response when she wants it, that’s HER problem to deal with, not yours.

Remember never to respond through fear or worry about what they might do/say/think. Respond with a delay, with only the issue at the forefront of your mind.

Great job ignoring the last message. That’s a bait. It requires no answer, it gets no response.

She can’t hurt you any more. She’s already fkd over your family with her MLC BS. Time to stop worrying about keeping her happy. She is, by definition as an MLC, unhappy.

[UrsaMajor]

Great job ignoring the last message. That’s a bait. It requires no answer, it gets no response.

EXACTLY correct!

She was trying on the new hat of the Master Baiter.....

[Pacman]

So....today s19 had a car accident. Someone hit him.

All safe.

Long story short but legally he isn't allowed to drive that car due to being probationary license.

Car is registered to W to cut down on premiums. Feel like telling her that he isn't covered and that insurance can refuse to pay out but  she seems to have it under control so I'm staying on my side of the street.

She can start dealing with some of the fallout while I stay silent :-)

But then I got triggered again. Saturday night is meant to be her night to look after granddaughter.....can't do it this week because she is going out.

Massive replay on her part. She is living the high fun life. But I know it will crash eventually.
I need to keep thinking that and not worry about what she is doing or it will push me further into the abyss she has created for me.
But only if I allow it of course.

That's where I need to keep detaching.

[UrsaMajor]

Car is registered to W to cut down on premiums. Feel like telling her that he isn't covered and that insurance can refuse to pay out but  she seems to have it under control so I'm staying on my side of the street.

VERY Good..... Her car, her circus, her monkeys...

[Kind18]

Her car, her circus, her monkeys...

Exactly.

But then I got triggered again. Saturday night is meant to be her night to look after granddaughter.....can't do it this week because she is going out.

Massive replay on her part. She is living the high fun life. But I know it will crash eventually.
I need to keep thinking that and not worry about what she is doing or it will push me further into the abyss she has created for me.
But only if I allow it of course.

That's where I need to keep detaching.

I love this. It shows you are sometimes starting to step outside the trauma and look objectively at things.

I know I’ve been fairly rigid on you Pac, trying to get you to set boundaries. But it’s important to remember too that while you gain awareness of these things, there’s always going to be things that trigger you and make you feel like you’ve slid back.

Don’t expect that in a few weeks you’ll be able to detach and walk away and have some Jedi level of indifference towards her - you won’t.

The measure of progress is that those times when you miss her, feel sh*t, get triggered - they just slowly become a) less frequent and b) of less duration.

You’re doing better in detachment than you were 2 weeks ago. And that was better than where you were four weeks ago. Detachment takes time, and persistence, and you shouldn’t be disappointed in yourself if you’ve had a rough day here and there.

It might feel like you’re crawling along incredibly slowly, and taking two steps back for each one forward, but I guarantee you as someone looking in externally I think you are making a seismic shift at the moment and really progressing well.

Keep on using the board. Keep delaying all responses minimum 24 hours until you’ve gathered your thoughts. Keep ignoring what she has done or what she might think or how she might react. If you get a message about in laws - think only about the in-laws when writing a response. If you get a message about your kids - think only about the kids when writing a response. If you get a message which doesn’t have a question or need you to do something (such as “I’ve heard you had a rough weekend”) - don’t respond.

You’re actually making huge leaps atm. Really proud of you.

And posts with more about Pac, and less about his crazy.

[Pacman]

So DIL 2 went get to hospital today to get checked out. DIL 1 told W so messages back and forth to DIL 2 from W.
"Are you ok?
Don't blame DIL 1. She is concerned.
I'm sorry I left the house and not there for my kids and grandkids. I love you all and don't want to get in the middle.
Please don't argue in front of A (me) because he has enough going on".....haha.

Wtf is going on in her head?

More serious note.
I need to address the car.

"Just reminding you that as of April next year the I30 is out of lease and I will be taking the Ranger back.
You have 3 options.
Pay for the Ranger fortnightly.
Pay out the I30 and you can drive it
Or buy yourself a car"

[UrsaMajor]

So DIL 2 went get to hospital today to get checked out. DIL 1 told W so messages back and forth to DIL 2 from W.
"Are you ok?
Don't blame DIL 1. She is concerned.
I'm sorry I left the house and not there for my kids and grandkids. I love you all and don't want to get in the middle.
Please don't argue in front of A (me) because he has enough going on".....haha.

Wtf is going on in her head?

What does green taste like today?

More serious note.
I need to address the car.

"Just reminding you that as of April next year the I30 is out of lease and I will be taking the Ranger back.

You have 3 options.
Pay for the Ranger fortnightly.
Pay out the I30 and you can drive it
Or buy yourself a car"

Skip this... She's an adult. Let her figure it out. You've told her that the lease is running out, you are taking back the other vehicle. What she does is up to her. Not your job to give her options...

[Pacman]

Dil 1just spat  it.
I'm done dealing with this crapfest.

I can't keep everyone happy.

Least of all myself.

I want her to drop out of my life.
This alien is just toxic to the whole family.

Yet wants to play happy families with the grandkids.

[UrsaMajor]

Well, you have set your boundaries and are holding them... Your kids, since they are legally adults, have to do the same with the Bug in the Edgar Suit formerly known as "mom."

And, those are consequences that she will have to deal with... Her choices = her consequences....

[Pacman]

So mate she was staying with said to her to come home and work it out....a couple of months ago...

Her response " I'm working on myself".
Typical MLC response.

She has got nastier and more distant since.

He has said last time he helps out friends as he now knows he got played and burnt.

Sad but I called it.

DIL 1 and s19 moved out tonight.
Said to son I'm sorry you feel you had to.

He looked at me with tears in his eyes and said we will be back.

"My door is always open you mate I love you"

W said to DIL 2  "I'm sorry for the tension I've created in the house"

[Kind18]

Skip this... She's an adult. Let her figure it out. You've told her that the lease is running out, you are taking back the other vehicle. What she does is up to her. Not your job to give her options...

Absolutely spot on. Not your circus. You don’t have to save her. That’s what husbands do, not left behind spouses. Have a read of “No More Mr Nice Guy”

So mate she was staying with said to her to come home and work it out....her response " I'm working on myself".
Typical MLC response.

He has said last time he helps out friends as he now knows he got played and burnt.

Sad but I called it.

Why you getting involved in this stuff? Why you talking to someone she lives with about what she is doing or saying. If you keep touching fire, you’ll keep getting burned. Walk the other way.

DIL 1 and s19 moved out tonight.
Said to son I'm sorry you feel you had to.

He looked at me with tears in his eyes and said we will be back.

"My door is always open you mate I love you:"

Perfect thing to say. Well done PacMan.

I'm done dealing with this crapfest.

I can't keep everyone happy.

Least of all myself.

Well then just stop dealing with it. You have too many balls to juggle. The absolute best thing you can do for your family is focus on PacMan being calm, stable, fit, healthy. You MUST put yourself first. Healthy eating, LOTS of exercise, IC. You can’t save the world on your own.

You’re absolutely right - you CAN’T keep everyone happy. Everyone is responsible for their own happiness. And you MLC freak show will never be made happy by anyone. Perhaps it’s time you stopped trying?

What I do disagree with is you saying you can’t even keep yourself happy. You absolutely can, and surprisingly, that’s your ticket out of here. It’s not only possible - it’s MANDATORY if you want to climb out of this $h!te sandwich you’ve been delivered.

They say the definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and over and hoping to get a different result. You’ve tried to nice her back for so long, you’ve tried to save your entire family from itself, you’ve placed everyone else’s needs first.

Don’t you think maybe it’s time to try something else (putting PacMan first)? Because what you’ve been trying sure isn’t working.

[UrsaMajor]

W said to DIL 2  "I'm sorry for the tension I've created in the house"

Sorry means nothing if the behaviour does not change.....

[Pacman]

Skip this... She's an adult. Let her figure it out. You've told her that the lease is running out, you are taking back the other vehicle. What she does is up to her. Not your job to give her options...

Absolutely spot on. Not your circus. You don’t have to save her. That’s what husbands do, not left behind spouses. Have a read of “No More Mr Nice Guy”

So mate she was staying with said to her to come home and work it out....her response " I'm working on myself".
Typical MLC response.

He has said last time he helps out friends as he now knows he got played and burnt.

Sad but I called it.

Why you getting involved in this stuff? Why you talking to someone she lives with about what she is doing or saying. If you keep touching fire, you’ll keep getting burned. Walk the other way.

It was just a general conversation between the 2 of us. I'm talking to him to rebuild our friendship as we were great friends before this happened.
I did not ask for any information at all.

DIL 1 and s19 moved out tonight.
Said to son I'm sorry you feel you had to.

He looked at me with tears in his eyes and said we will be back.

"My door is always open you mate I love you:"

Perfect thing to say. Well done PacMan.

Thanks you but its true. Can't shut the door on my sons no matter what.

I'm done dealing with this crapfest.

I can't keep everyone happy.

Least of all myself.

Well then just stop dealing with it. You have too many balls to juggle. The absolute best thing you can do for your family is focus on PacMan being calm, stable, fit, healthy. You MUST put yourself first. Healthy eating, LOTS of exercise, IC. You can’t save the world on your own.

You’re absolutely right - you CAN’T keep everyone happy. Everyone is responsible for their own happiness. And you MLC freak show will never be made happy by anyone. Perhaps it’s time you stopped trying?

What I do disagree with is you saying you can’t even keep yourself happy. You absolutely can, and surprisingly, that’s your ticket out of here. It’s not only possible - it’s MANDATORY if you want to climb out of this $h!te sandwich you’ve been delivered.

They say the definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and over and hoping to get a different result. You’ve tried to nice her back for so long, you’ve tried to save your entire family from itself, you’ve placed everyone else’s needs first.

Don’t you think maybe it’s time to try something else (putting PacMan first)? Because what you’ve been trying sure isn’t working.

I don't feel that I am trying to nice her at all. Nor beg plead or any of that other stuff.
Am continuing my IC weekly.
And yes I wear my heart on my sleeve when it comes to my family....always have.
My detachment towards her is increasing slowly......yes I have some days where I fall back but then get right back up and move forward again.
I do not reach out to her and only respond with facts that need to be dealt with (when I'm ready to respond) and ignore anything that I feel is over and above what needs to be discussed.

I definitely believe I have got much better at this last point.

W said to DIL 2  "I'm sorry for the tension I've created in the house"

Sorry means nothing if the behaviour does not change.....

Too true.

[Pacman]

Please tell me that I'm not migrating to those who validate my thoughts and away from those who don't. (Like she has)
I left DB because I felt attacked.
And now my mate has just said he really doesn't give a f**k about my situation because he has his own $h!te to deal with.
We used to be great friends, talk everyday,have lunch but since she has been living there he has gone stone cold.

I know I can't control others but seriously I'd he goes from one extreme to the other. Supports me then blocks me.

I know I can't control others but either back me or don't.

[UrsaMajor]

And now my mate has just said he really doesn't give a f**k about my situation because he has his own $h!te to deal with.
We used to be great friends, talk everyday,have lunch but since she has been living there he has gone stone cold.

I know I can't control others but seriously I'd he goes from one extreme to the other. Supports me then blocks me.

I know I can't control others but either back me or don't.

Then let him deal with his own $#!t on his own. He has either drunk the Kool-Aid (I mean the MLC'er IS living there so ......) or whatever but it is his choice to support the Mid-Lifer or the LBS and it is your choice to engage with him or not....

With "friends" like that, who needs enemies?  One finds out who their real friends are in this situation.... and it's looking pretty bad for him....

[JohnnyBravo]

Please tell me that I'm not migrating to those who validate my thoughts and away from those who don't. (Like she has)
I left DB because I felt attacked.

You'd have to be Mr. Spock to apply a rational analysis and selection of all of the advice here. We're human, and we will naturally find it easier to accept things that support our viewpoint. It's helpful to understand the other ideas here, but you'll ultimately pick what work best for you. All of our circumstances are different, our spouses have acted differently, and we have different reactions to those behaviors/actions. I see some posts here and think, "Yeah, go back to living in your parent's basement." But that's based on my own assessment of my own circumstances and view of myself or the myself I want to grow into. I think the overall goal is just to stay sane at the start, and build from there.

And now my mate has just said he really doesn't give a f**k about my situation because he has his own $h!te to deal with.
We used to be great friends, talk everyday,have lunch but since she has been living there he has gone stone cold.

Understanding the friend's viewpoint is probably like trying to smell a different color with your elbow... Ultimately, people are going to work for their own best interests. I think your wife is staying with a couple, correct? If so, your mate's wife/girlfriend may have sided with yours, and he doesn't want that to threaten his own relationship. Fortunately for me, our mutual friends have mostly stayed out of it, and I don't bring it up with them; our specific friends have fallen the way you'd expect them to. Even though my wife's enabler thinks she's a really good friend of mine, I've always viewed her as a narcissistic train wreck, so that's no loss. (Her and her now ex husband were funny enough to hang out with and even spend weekends with in a larger group, but I would never have confided in her or sought advice from her.)

Regardless, it's still sad to have a friend waffle like that.

JB

[xyzcf]

Please tell me that I'm not migrating to those who validate my thoughts and away from those who don't. (Like she has)
I left DB because I felt attacked.

I like JB's response:

It's helpful to understand the other ideas here, but you'll ultimately pick what work best for you. All of our circumstances are different, our spouses have acted differently, and we have different reactions to those behaviors/actions.

Sometimes, when we come to a site like HS and we are so messed up by what is happening in our lives, we are searching for a "solution", a method of how to navigate, perhaps even a "rule book" of what to do/what not to do. But as in real life, one size doe not fit all.

I hope that no one ever feels "attacked" for doing what they feel is right in their situation. You can choose, what sounds right for you and what doesn't and you need not be anyone than who you are.

We are not "professionals", only fellow spouses experiencing the breakdown of our marriages and families. And one thing I have noticed through the years (and I have done this as well) is sometimes we will share what our therapists have told us to do and sometimes that is completely the opposite of what my therapist has suggested to me...so even the professionals don't necessarily agree.

Nothing written here is an "absolute" but it is really gives each of us the chance to rethink, to reassess, to consider a different approach perhaps than the one that we have tried before.

I am sorry about your friend's lack of support. My own brother told me that he never wanted to hear me mention my husband's name again or anything about my situation...that hurt me terribly for he shut me down when I needed a shoulder to lean into....but many others have sat with me through some very dark times, including people from this site..because sometimes, it was too hard to even breathe.

I must also say, that sometimes when I was given a 2 x 4, my initial reaction was anger, how dare someone say that to me....but often it allowed me to process something that I was not seeing clearly at the time....and if it didn't, then it wasn't a message I needed and I could choose not to accept it as being relevant to me.

I wanted to comment on something from a couple of posts back, you said:

And yes I wear my heart on my sleeve when it comes to my family....always have.

I totally get this!

[Pacman]

Ok. I'm done.
She said she wants to be happy. Won't come back.
Won't talk about divorce but "we need to talk about finances".
I'm at deaths door right now and want to embrace it to take the pain away.

Initially she said to live in the same house as friends and when I threw it back at her last night She said "You must be joking. I wasn't thinking when I said that "

[xyzcf]

Pacman, the pain will go away. For a while, we keep believing that somehow, they will see that this is wrong, they will recognize the error of their ways and we can work it out, together, like we always did before.

Then there are times when it hits us so hard, the change in them seems permanent, there is no hope for what we want, nothing more to do and the deep and dark thoughts take over.

We have all been there...talking one another off that ledge.

It truly is trauma, the way our physiology responds.....PTSD and somehow we need to find ways to calm our minds, emotions and heart so they can do their job...of protecting us from something that is not in our control.

You know this is true, you have seen it in the stories you read here, the pain will subside, regardless of what happens to her.

You are  about 6 months since BD. You have heard us say so before.......our healing takes a long time. We are impatient, we do not want to have "feelings" for this alien anymore but sometimes it is hard to control where our heart goes.

The holiday time makes it worse....but it will get better.

I think you are in IC. Perhaps you may need some antianxiety or antidepressent medication which you can talk to your doctor about. Most helpful to me were a few really good friends who would listen to me (sometimes for hours the poor things).

Don't be afraid of your feelings, identify them, write them down and perhaps search deeper into why you are feeling certain things....again, writing it down sometimes helped me to purge the way I was feeling.

You have support here Pacman...it's here for you always.

[marvin4242]

PacMan, I am so sorry you are in this place. What can help? What can you do right now to at least mitigate the pain, or make it more tolerable?

[Pacman]

PacMan, I am so sorry you are in this place. What can help? What can you do right now to at least mitigate the pain, or make it more tolerable?

I have no idea.
I guess either some movement towards reconciliation or complete finalization on her part.

[Thunder]

Pac you know this too soon for a reconciliation and it does not have to be the end either.  You have so much time.

I know how desperate you are feeling, believe me a lot of us have been exactly where you are, but you need to put any dark thoughts out of your head, if you are feeling them.

Trust me, you will NOT always feel this way.

We are here for you, just talk to us.

{{Big Hug}}

[Pacman]

Pac you know this too soon for a reconciliation and it does not have to be the end either.  You have so much time.

I know how desperate you are feeling, believe me a lot of us have been exactly where you are, but you need to put any dark thoughts out of your head, if you are feeling them.

Trust me, you will NOT always feel this way.

We are here for you, just talk to us.

{{Big Hug}}

But she has said yesterday that it's over and now wants to talk finances.
That I won't be her friend (as i have told her) and that she wants to be happy.
And she I is feeling better.

[Thunder]

Well how nice for her. 

I tell you these MLCer's are so self-centered right now, there is no talking to them.
Don't even try.  It will be crazy making for you.

Is there someone you can call and talk to?  I mean someone who genuinely cares about you.

Either that or go take a long walk.  Burn off some of this anxiety.  It may help.
Man I can't tell you how often I walked.  Every day.   

[Standing Strong]

Hey Pac,

I know this is SUPER rough...... they all say things like this in the beginning.... and they believe it.
It's very hard to listen to them say something and not take them at their word. You want her to be happy. You want to be a good man.

This is manipulation, and emotional blackmail. She wants what she wants, and that's all that's on her mind. Would the person you knew act like this without a thought about your wellbeing? Probably not. There's a "tell" for you. It's all about her, and from that you know she is broken.

What you do with this situation is entirely your decision: See if time will change the situation (and improve yourself during it), or give her what she wants and hope the pain goes away.
Doing what she wants will not remove the pain, at this point nothing will. It has to be faced and overcome no matter what is chosen.

Just as important as what she wants is what you want. You are both halves of a whole. One half can decide to go, but even if that happens the other half can still choose to stay. It isn't until both say "enough" that it really is over. This isn't something that has a time limit and there's no hurry....... she may be in a hurry for her own reasons, but her reasons will change, just as her stories change. The one who is more grounded is you, therefore the decision rests with you. You can't choose for her, but you can choose for yourself.

Take your time Pac..... and it does get better.

-SS

[JohnnyBravo]

I have times like that. Sometimes, the only thing that keeps me going is knowing that if I'm not here, the chance of reconciliation is absolutely zero.

I spend a fair amount of time in fear. Fear that my wife won't contact me. Fear that she WILL contact me. Fear that I'll be stuck here. Fear that I'll get over our relationship and give up on my wife. Fear that I will grow old to be my odd coworker who has nothing but a goldfish at home. But still, fear is assuming that things will turn out for the worst even when you can't see the end. Faith is assuming that things will turn out for the best even when you can't see the end.

Whatever it is, it's really, really hard. For now, find something to hang on to.

[forthetrees]

Limbo sucks- it´s like being on the fence but being on the spikes of the fence- ouch.
Her pursuit of happiness is like a dog chasing its tail. There are so many research articles that show that happiness is not the goal that humans really want- rather it is a sense of purpose. So, if she´s still on the happy trail, it just means that there will be an emotional crash in her future. You are not responsible for her state of happiness; she is.

When the lows hit, try music, stretching, going in nature, spending time with a pet. I used to sit outside on the front steps and sob to the night sky- sounds that I did not know my body could make. But over time making music was my best therapy. That and watching comedy marathons.

[Hoosier Daddy]

PAC,

I feel for you man.  I’ve been in your shoes many times over the past 2+ years.  I doubt that any final decision  or action by either of you will lessen your pain or bring quicker healing.  You will have to go through the stages whether you are a MLC or a LBS.  I have found my peace exercising.  When things get dark for me I hit the gym or go for a long walk.  Be patient my friend.  Hasty decisions/actions are not the answer.  Let go and save yourself first.  Finding your peace is the first step.

HD

[MadLuv]

Pacman- you are at that really rough period when you have gotten out of the shock and now the things they say are really hitting your core, your soul, your heart. This was the toughest for me as well. I had to walk and listen to music and books to get out of my head. I thought I was going to to lose my mind and my life at times.

Just know that when you get to the depths of despair that you will come out. The peaks and valleys of the rollercoaster are difficult. You will get on a less treacherous ride. Just keep working through the bad moments and you will make it through.

Just remember what they say can change with the wind. Let it blow right by you.

[UrsaMajor]

But she has said yesterday that it's over and now wants to talk finances.
That I won't be her friend (as i have told her) and that she wants to be happy.
And she I is feeling better.

And tomorrow, she'll want to talk about the D and the day after about how she is such a train wreck, and the day after about ........

Who gives a rat's patoot about what she is saying?  Focus NOT on what verbal diarrhea is being spewed at the moment and on your own well-being because what is coming out of her mouth at the moment is stream-of-conscious babble and nothing more...

If she is really done, then let her stick a fork in it and back it up with consistent actions... Otherwise, you do you and let her swing in the breeze...

[Treasur]

As others say here, Pac, this is time now to do two things which might feel like opposites.
Take her at face value based on her actions and act accordingly
And
Don’t believe much of what she says or invest much mental energy in it.

The first is about dealing with the situation practically based on the reality in front of you. So, for instance, don’t talk finances until you have taken legal advice first. And lower your expectations of her behaving like a reasonable or honest person who cares about anyone other than herself.

The second is about her feelings or opinions about anything much really. It is more about removing the voice in your head that says these things are your business. She ‘feels better’. Whatever, not your concern. She wants you to ‘talk about finances’ now. Whatever, you’’ll do so when you are ready and able, not just bc she wants it. She wants you to visit with her family. Whatever, not her business. She feels happy/sadz/rejected by your kids. Whatever, not your problem to fix. She was unhappy in your marriage for 2/5/10 years. Whatever, you would have listened while you were still her husband, once she fired you from the job, nothing you can do about it.

The first is about dealing with what’s happening.
The second is about unhooking your emotional health from your hopes or fears about what is in her head at any given time.
Both are imho part of how one gets out of that awful limbo place which is so painful.

I’m sorry bc I know that Here is not where you ever wanted to be and it can feel overwhelming and dark.
But we are here to say that it is worth hanging on, Pac, even if you do it a day at a time. Why? Bc where you are is so awful that, however the future unfolds, we can honestly promise you that almost anything else will be better than this. That there is a good peaceful life on the other side of it if you keep trudging through this awful bit. And it is a life worth hoping for even if it is not the life you planned.

[xyzcf]

There was for me such a feeling of being "lost" and not knowing who I was anymore. My situation was different in that I was sent away, to a house we owned in a different country. My family lived in another country and I had quit working to follow him to his overseas posting.

Things that had defined me, wife, mother, nurse...none of those things were there anymore so I struggled with who was I? Did I matter anymore to anyone?

I say this because I had to expand my world and find new interests (the things we used to do together at the time were too painful for me to do alone) and I had to find some people because I was totally alone in this place.

My point being this morning, is that our lives have taken a different direction than what we were so sure of. How do we fill that void, that emptiness?

When I would find an activity or new people to meet, for that time, I would be able to stop my mind from the endless chatter. I started to play golf. In between holes, my mind still would not slow down, but when I would address the ball, there was a brief interval where my focus was not on him.

Someone else mentioned walking every day which has helped many of us and is proven to be as effective as an antidepressant for mild to moderate depression. And as FTT mentioned, walking outdoors, in nature is even more helpful.

Can you think of some things that might be of interest to you, where you will be able to interact with others who are not family? For some it is a gym, others a church group, classes and there is also an organization called Meetup that lists many different groups and interests that you can join ( it's not a dating group but people who get together that like to do similar things..photography, hiking).

Libraries offer some interesting programs as do colleges.

I also travelled, by myself strangely and that was also healing.

Having a routine (specific classes at the gym or a group that meets on a certain day) helped a great deal to combat the loneliness and as I said, allowed those thoughts to be turned off for a bit.

I also got a dog, a rescue who rescued me. 

It takes a while to find those things that might help, that are your things that you do that are not tied into what you both did together. It did help me a great deal to discover things I would not necessarily have done if we were a couple together.

Thinking of you...as you can see from the responses, alot of people know exactly what you are going through and we are here to listen and help in whatever way we can.

[Slow Fade]

Pac, the pain is exquisite for sure. You think it will never end and you will never live again but take it from those of us on the other side of this...You will survive and you will thrive again. I promise! Hang in there, take deep breaths and focus on yourself and what you need!

Hugs.

[JohnnyBravo]

Pac, not sure if you're checking in today, but how are you doing?

[Pacman]

When she got diagnosed with Perimenopause she came home and said "I am going to be a b*tch for the next 7 years" and laughed about it. Well she certainly has become one.

JB at the moment I am extremely angry at myself for pushing yet again. I should have just backed off and let things run its natural course.
I feel that I have now pushed her into action. I think someone must have been in her ear as she seems to be gathering speed now. The fear of everything you said is just so great. I know she isn't me and I am not her BUT we were US.

SF yes the pain is exquisite to say the least. I have never felt like this even after the death of family members.

xyzcf I do feel totally lost and no idea on how to get off this roller-coaster ride. I know I matter to people but not the 1 person that I valued the most.

Treasur face value on her actions? She is gaining speed and heading further away. She has said no hope, I'm not changing my mind, doing it for herself, admits she brought him into our marriage. Her actions......collecting more of her stuff 2 weeks ago.  I know a lot of people here know what I'm going through but it has only been 5 months yet feels like a lifetime. I feel like I am sitting on death row knowing that my sentence is coming up but not knowing the final date. I am trying to just day by day this at the moment. This is definitely not where I saw myself at this stage of life. Now should have been the time to start enjoying life and the new additions to the family. And yes I feel empty to my core. Removing the "voices" is what I need to work on. I am naturally a highly strung worrier and go through scenarios in my head constantly.

UM, she won't talk about D yet. But she rarely talks to me at all nowadays. Wanted to contact me to talk about the problems the boys are going through but decided not to "so as not to upset you" (me). She did crack a couple of weeks ago and admitted to breaking down but now says she is better but I know that is crap I need to keep telling myself it's all lies.

Tornup You are right. I have almost got to the point where I am so battered and bruised that I feel like I have gone 15 rounds with Mike Tyson. It's the fact that nothing I do or say is going to stop this train wreck from happening.

HD I know that actions/decisions made on the spur of the moment or when I am not emotionally stable would be a massive mistake. But a little part of me thinks that it would give me some sense of control and lessen the pain. I then realise that it might short term however how would my decision sit with me in 10 days, 10 months or even 10 years?? I don't want to continue spiralling and cycling like this. Only 5 months but feels like forever. When I see or read there is years of this I don't know if I can......

forthetrees Yep limbo is how I feel but also do know that only I can control my actions (sometimes). And mostly I am good at that. I know that a crash will be coming for her and it will be the ugliest train wreck ever.  Unfortunately with her mother being diagnosed with dementia, I fear that it will make her run even harder and when she passes away will push my W further into her fog.

Thunder I do know it's way too early for any reconciliation (if it was ever going to happen anyway), but she just gets more distant and obviously loving her "new life" (or so she thinks). Most people are getting sick of talking to me as I just get on my hamster wheel and run like crazy. I become so focussed on this that I forget other people have their own issues that they are dealing with as well.

SS yes it is SUPER tough. I have no idea how anyone can go through this for years and stay sane. She definitely doesn't give a crap about anything or anyone other than herself. She has become a total alien and selfish to boot. I know I need to back off and wait for the inevitable crash that is coming. I'm sure she knows she has me exactly where she wants me ......under her control and she can pull any string she wants. I feel like she is manipulating me (not necessarily intentional or is it?). What I want and what she wants are actually not that far apart in real terms in that we both want to be happy. Just that her happy doesn't include me and quite possibly still includes the AP.

[Standing Strong]

I feel like she is manipulating me (not necessarily intentional or is it?). What I want and what she wants are actually not that far apart in real terms in that we both want to be happy.

Hi Pac, 

It is both intentional and unintentional. Here is a person who is out of control, and that loss of control isn't a choice she has made, it happened (for whatever damage she has been lugging around).
Like you said, she has you where she wants you..... for a person without control, to be able to control something (someone) else is something they desire very much. Think about it this way: everything is mush in the MLC'er world..... everything. Their emotions, reasoning, memory, wants.... everything. Mush. And here you are....... not mush. Even further than that, she can push your buttons which is so interesting and entertaining because her buttons are being pushed and she doesn't know why or how, but ohhhhh she wishes they would STOP just for a moment (not gonna happen). So what does she do? She sees the one thing which isn't mush (you), and it has buttons on it...... and when she pushes the buttons on the object (you) it makes funny, terrible sounds that are sooooo similar to how she feels (terrible). She pushes the buttons (in part) because WHY ISN'T THIS TOY BROKEN LIKE ME!! [pushes button] *HONK* *HONK* *HONK* [Attempts to break the toy] *HONK* *HONK* *HONK*.
It is frustration, resentment, jealousy, anger, desperation, and shame. Is it intentional? Yes, and no. The need to share pain is conscious, the compulsion is not.
The depression ensures that they (on some level) hate themselves during this Pac. They do want/need to prove to themselves that you are as broken as they are, because you are not mush, and you were the important one, so you too should be mush just like them.

Don't fret, you'll get to the point where your buttons don't make you cry out, and still you will not be mush.  Then she will be confused because her "toy" doesn't make sound anymore..... and yet she will know it's not broken. That's when the tables can flip and respect/admiration can begin to return (slowly).

I know you are worried about not being able to do this for a "long" period of time. HA!! We all go thru that Pac. All of us. We even tell ourselves "If it's not done by X date, then I'm done"..... and that day comes and goes. It's all normal, it's all natural. I don't think there's one here who at the beginning didn't think about not being able to hang in there. It can be done, you just can't take it all in all at once. Just as she has to cook, so too will you. Many days you will only have enough to get thru today and no more. That's all you have to do: get thru today. You will grow and become stronger, smarter, wiser, and more shrewd. You will grow up in ways you never thought you would or thought you needed, and gain perspective into the lives of others as you never have before....... and if you really embrace it, you will learn the meaning of true love, compassion and forgiveness in ways unimagined. In all this, you will be the best man you can be and it will last a lifetime. A great gift, purchased with the most difficult period you will ever face.
Getting all that has nothing to do with saving your marriage, but your marriage can't be saved without it.

The despair will pass. What is needed now is strength, and even if you don't have much...... when it comes to her, fake it until you make it. The heart follows what the mind chooses and sets out to do. If you wait for your heart to come to terms, and "feel right", you will be waiting forever. Be strong, be unshakable, be resolute, be true to your convictions..... not to fight with her, to be a rock which can't be moved. You have compassion and love still: You want her to be happy. This is so good! It's sacrificial, which is the truest love.
Keep that compassion alive, and get off her radar Pac. She needs to only see you at your best. Strong, confident, and sure. When she explodes, keep your cool and don't let 'em see you sweat. If anything, crack a smile. You need to be self control personified: the complete opposite of what happening inside her (no control, no real strength, no real confidence). She will only have the façade, you will be the genuine article. 

I see you're connecting dots, that's really good!! 
You've come a good way in a short period of time. KEEP GOING!!
Everyone is rooting for ya,

-SS

[Treasur]

SS is right, Pac, that how you feel right now is normal for an abnormal situation.
Every single one of us here has had times of feeling just like you do and doubting that we are ever going to feel ok again.

Do you have an IC, Pac?
Bc this s&it imho is too hard to navigate alone without decent support.
And while you - and we - wish with all our hearts that this was not happening to you, it is.
You need help figuring out how to dig yourself out of this dark hole regardless of what your wife does or doesn’t do. Bc it’s not a good hole to stay in for too long.

[UrsaMajor]

Pac,

There is NOTHING abnormal about how you are feeing in a totally abnormal situation... If you were feeling "normal," I'd be concerned that you were either catatonic or have some sort of Multiple Personality because this stuff is hard - it leaves a mark, a scar, and it firetrucking well hurts.

Wanted to contact me to talk about the problems the boys are going through but decided not to "so as not to upset you" (me).

This is NOTHING more than another lame MLC excuse for hiding away in order to not have to face the consequences/results of her actions. It is a cowards way to keep form being squished under the crushing load of guilt that MLC'ers seem to be able to compartmentalize away in order to not have to deal with the real world and the results. "The problems that the boys are going through" have a great deal to do with her actions, her choices so, of course, she doesn't want to talk about it, to you or them.... Why? Because you know the truth, the reality, and she does NOT want to have to face responsibility that her actions are a big reason that the boys are having problems... so of course, she doesn't want to talk about it.... especially not to you who is on the front line in having to deal with those problems...

UM

[Pacman]

Small realisation today.

I'm spending so much of my time trying to research and understand MLC that I'm not spending any time on myself.

Does it change the way I feel or my wishes? No not at the moment.

But it's a small step change and now that door  is open maybe I can start progressing.

I'm not sure the breakthru has happened yet but it is a crack in my thinking......

[Treasur]

The cracks are how the light comes in, Pac.....
So, what are you going to do for yourself this weekend?

[Pacman]

The cracks are how the light comes in, Pac.....
So, what are you going to do for yourself this weekend?

Babysitting grandchildren and household chores lol.

[Thunder]

That sounds good pacman.

Would you be up for maybe some Christmas music and possibly baking some cookies with the grandchildren?  You can get the premade dough, then buy some sprinkles.
Kids love doing that and it may be a nice memory for them, and for you.

Just a suggestion.   

[Pacman]

That sounds good pacman.

Would you be up for maybe some Christmas music and possibly baking some cookies with the grandchildren?  You can get the premade dough, then buy some sprinkles.
Kids love doing that and it may be a nice memory for them, and for you.

Just a suggestion. 

One is only 5 months and the other one is only 4 weeks old

[MadLuv]

It’s hard Pacman. I can remember early on spending time alone with my grandson and that was painful even at first. Can remember thinking how can he give this up? What is better than family. My grandson was 6 and I had to finally have a talk with him on why his pops was not around and remember feeling resentful that I had to have that talk.

Try to enjoy your time with the kids and remember that what you built still remains whether she wants to run from it our not. Just know that if she could see the forest through the trees that she would not be making decisions she is making or thinking the way she is thinking. She is missing out on so much, but you aren’t ! You are here and with your family and let’s hope st some point she will see the light, but if she doesn’t you will be ok and your family will be ok.

It’s so hard. You just have to keep moving forward one moment st a time.

[Pacman]

It's funny. She stole a picture I took of both grandchildren together and used it as her profile for a while .
Reused the same pic for a Facebook story today. Oh well her loss

[Thunder]

Oh sorry, Pac.  I didn't realize they were that young.  Guess that will have to wait until next year.

Well enjoy your time with them.   

[MadLuv]

It's funny. She stole a picture I took of both grandchildren together and used it as her profile for a while .
Reused the same pic for a Facebook story today. Oh well her loss

Well of course she did. She is trying to hang on to the delusion that she has done nothing!!! Crazy is as crazy does!

[Kind18]

At risk of being unpopular and asking hard questions, why are you still interacting with her social media? I’ve asked this already before. Unfollow her, get on with your life. You only remain trapped in your current situation by yourself, not by her. You are causing yourself this pain now, not her.

A few months on, and still all your posts are about her - what she said, what she did, what she might be thinking, how she might react. Why would you let a MLC person control your every move and thought? You know we only get about 80 laps around the sun, perhaps PacMan needs to stop wasting time thinking about a sick, manipulative person.

Your next 10 posts should be NOTHING about her, and all about your progress and what you’re working on in IC, your hobbies, your grandkids, how you are getting fit to wear your body out (I’ve said this to you lots), a self improvement course, changes to your diet. Paint a room a new colour. Detail your car. Make something for your grandkids. Plant a vegetable garden. Do some volunteering. Join a club.

You’re sitting around hoping she’ll suddenly whip out a key and unlock you from your pain and sadness and misery. Ironically, the key is in your own hand…

[MadLuv]

I have to agree with Kind18. I couldn’t handle the social media postings. My XH is not on, but his OW is and she is blocked as are her children. I dont need her or her family creeping.

[Pacman]

At risk of being unpopular and asking hard questions, why are you still interacting with her social media? I’ve asked this already before. Unfollow her, get on with your life. You only remain trapped in your current situation by yourself, not by her. You are causing yourself this pain now, not her.

A few months on, and still all your posts are about her - what she said, what she did, what she might be thinking, how she might react. Why would you let a MLC person control your every move and thought? You know we only get about 80 laps around the sun, perhaps PacMan needs to stop wasting time thinking about a sick, manipulative person.

Your next 10 posts should be NOTHING about her, and all about your progress and what you’re working on in IC, your hobbies, your grandkids, how you are getting fit to wear your body out (I’ve said this to you lots), a self improvement course, changes to your diet. Paint a room a new colour. Detail your car. Make something for your grandkids. Plant a vegetable garden. Do some volunteering. Join a club.

You’re sitting around hoping she’ll suddenly whip out a key and unlock you from your pain and sadness and misery. Ironically, the key is in your own hand…

I am not interacting with her social media at all. DIL 2 informed me (unfortunately).
Yep I know, I am trapped in my own head.
Counselling every 2 weeks and working through various issues.
Plan to paint the loungeroom this weekend plus was going to install a sliding door to the shed but Son19 and girlfriend have moved out so that isn't as critical to do at the moment.
Have started taking the dog for a walk after work.

[JohnnyBravo]

To be fair to the Pac-er, I usually only post here with bad news, too. I mean, where's the fun without the drama? (I know, I know, you guys like to make sure we're doing better or at least taking the right steps.)

Pac, speaking of social media, I'd stay off of the FB HS page as well. Lots of crazy, negative energy there. I quit that when one guy posted a pic of his wife with her affair partner. Wife was cute, AP was a total dirtball. I don't need any suggestions as to the kind of loser my wife could be dating. (I know you already know of your alienator, but that's just one example.) I think people are drawn to the FB site because you get feedback or sympathy much more quickly, but the time delay here (and level of thought) leads to much more useful responses.

JB

[Kind18]

I am not interacting with her social media at all. DIL 2 informed me (unfortunately).

That sounds eerily similar to last time. Know that this is coming from a place of love and support… but I’m not buying that. Have you actually unfriended/unfollowed her, or do you still have visibility on any of her social media? And if the problem was your DIL telling you about it, there’s a very easy solution - “Thanks DIL, but that’s her Facebook page and I’m not really interested in hearing what she’s up to.”

Yep I know, I am trapped in my own head.

That’s okay. We’ve all been there, it’s really tough. Such a roller coaster. You’re doing great, slowly becoming self aware of it is only going to help you moving forward.

Plan to paint the loungeroom this weekend plus was going to install a sliding door to the shed but Son19 and girlfriend have moved out so that isn't as critical to do at the moment.

This is great! Try to balance that stuff with things where you interact with other people too, like a club or team sport etc.

Have started taking the dog for a walk after work.

This is the best update I’ve seen from you! That’s more likely to lead to good mental health outcomes than pretty much anything else you can do. Commit to a full hour, fast paced walk with the dog every day for 30 days. That will do wonders for your headspace, PLUS you’ll sleep better and be better able to deal with ups and down of dealing with a freak show.

Your next 10 posts - only about PacMan. And…… GO!

[MadLuv]

I had to tell those close to me not to talk about my XH for a while so that I could distance myself for a while and disconnect easier. It’s hard. You kind of want the insight, but it is not good for you. I had to realize it was keeping me in a bad place.

[Kind18]

I had to tell those close to me not to talk about my XH for a while so that I could distance myself for a while and disconnect easier. It’s hard. You kind of want the insight, but it is not good for you. I had to realize it was keeping me in a bad place.

Yep, you have to put positive steps in place to distance yourself from the drama. It’s not healthy to be thinking about it, or snooping, or have your friends passing on information.

The other key beyond putting these barriers in place is to have fixed, limited rumination time each day. Think about them and the whole damn mess for 10 mins, let your imagination go wild, and then when 10 mins is up - get on with your life. This will train you to limit your time thinking about it, and also help you realise that it does nothing to improve outcomes.

Time to build a wall around your heart. She’ll only keep stabbing it while you let her.

[Evermore]

Glad you’ve started taking the dig for regular walks. That helped me immensely. As for the rest of the advice given, you’ve only a few months out. That’s very very early. Don’t let others guilt you into what you ‘should’ be doing. You do you. Work out what helps and what doesn’t. It’s very early to just not be thinking about the situation at all (or even for a short time every day). It’s ok to aim for those things. But don’t beat yourself up if you’re not achieving that. It takes YEARS to heal from such a devastating trauma. Be kind to yourself.

[UrsaMajor]

It takes YEARS to heal from such a devastating trauma. Be kind to yourself.

And while you are practicing self-care, you can start a new thread...

[Pacman]

New thread time 

https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11875.0