[MomOfSteel]

Hi all.  I could use insight and support.  My H has been pulling away for about a year.  Bought 2 new cars, lost weight, exercises like a mad man, changing appearance.  This past summer he seems to be resentful and pulls away more.  Right before Labor Day he drops the bomb of EA.  I think we are trying to work on things for about a month.  He keeps going back to AP who he works with and is his soulmate and I get the I don’t love you anymore, I haven’t for a long time, I felt like I had to marry you.  (After 17 years and 4 kids, who are still fairly small). He continues to say and do horrible things until he moves out in November while I visit his family with the kids.  His whole family is appalled and tries to talk him out of it.  His and our mutual friends and his best friend since age 15 try to talk him out of it.  He won’t listen to anyone.  He’s just trying to find happiness and isn’t happy so of course everything is all my fault.  His whole personality has changed overnight.  He’s turning his back on his faith he has held dear his whole life.   I realize now those well meaning people probably just pushed him away even more.  He now has no relationship with his family or me or my family.  I believe he moved on from an EA to FA as soon as he moved out.  Filed for divorce early December and now we are in the process of dissolving our marriage.  I’m heartbroken, he’s been so cruel.  I’m having a hard time detaching.  I want to reconcile, he says he just doesn’t want to and I could never forgive him then tells me how pathetic I am. I’ve basically stopped communication except when it’s about the kids and he only communicates when he wants something.  If we end up on the phone, he will talk a long time and often seems to want to complain about his mom or wants to know what is happening with his family and wants my insights on things.  It only happens maybe once a month.  I am not sure what to really do at this point.  Where do I go from here? 

[xyzcf]

Welcome to Hero's Spouse' I am sorry you are having to go through this

His whole personality has changed overnight. 
He’s turning his back on his faith he has held dear his whole life.   
I realize now those well meaning people probably just pushed him away even more.
I’m heartbroken, he’s been so cruel.

Going through a divorce when none of this is in your control is very painful.  Making sure that you are financially protected is essential though. Sometimes we have to separate the business from the emotional part of this.

You have been though a huge shock and it will take some time to get through this. It sounds like you have some family support. You may also want to see a therapist.

Concrete things that help are exercising, especially outdoors, journalling, reading RCR's articles which help to explain what is happening..those who love us often don't get that something changed our spouses. Getting enough sleep, eating well and perhaps finding something that you enjoy doing will all help you.

I don't think that well meaning people have pushed him further away. This is what he feels he needs to do and it won't matter a bit what family and freinds say...he will do what he feels he must do.

If you too find your faith helpful there are a couple of good resources:

Brokenheart on Hold by Linda Rooks
Lysa Terkeurst's devotionals and book "It's not supposed to be this way"
Rejoice Ministries Charlyene Cares daily devotionals.

This is his crisis and really has to do with something internal in him...it isn't about you or your marriage but it does affect you.

Detaching is not easy and you have children involved.  It sounds like he contacts you...we label these as "clinging boomerangers" and it's ok to have contact with him as long as you can deal with it. It can also give you some insight into what is going on in him. But it  isn't easy so some people feel it best to cut all contact with them. That is totally your decision and can change from one day to the next.

Ask questions and others will be by to give you some support.

Where do I go from here?

You start a journey of your own, finding who you are without him and who you wish to be. It isn't easy and you need a great deal of patience with yourself but you will get there.

[Nas]

I’m sorry to hear your story, LandB. It all resonates (except I don’t have kids, but the rest was so similar).
I don’t know where you live or if a legal separation agreement is possible there, but among other things, this is something you might want to look into and consider. Protect yourself financially as best you can, both in terms of current assets and any possible future debt he may accrue. I know it’s hard to even think about this right now, but protecting yourself and your kids is priority number one.

The affair is a huge and painful part of this and understandably it’s the thing we tend to focus the most on. We think if the affair would just end, they might start to behave somewhat normally again and be responsible and care about consequences. Please know that the affair isnt your fault, but there’s nothing you can do to end it. I had something similar where a lot of people in my life tried to talk some sense into him. They don’t listen. He’s already proven he’s not willing to listen to anyone, so any attempts are likely only going to agitate him. Right now, you are best served to try to figure out what you need for your kids and make sure first and foremost that you all are OK.

You’ll find support here. No one can change the circumstances you find yourself in or take away the pain, but we all do you know what you’re going through and sometimes that alone is a small comfort during this really hard time. I’m sorry you’ve found yourself here.

[MomOfSteel]

Thank you both.  Knowing someone else has or is going through it and understands is helpful.  Financially I think we are going to be okay as H is a fairly high income earner.  Right now he’s giving me an allowance that at least pays the bills.  Once I get some paperwork in, we can file for temporary support for the duration of the divorce and I should get more which should make it more comfortable.  Luckily for me, I’m the one that knows how to access all the joint accounts, not him and I have put some money into accounts he can’t access at all just in case. 

I am heavily leaning on my faith right now as it feels like the only thing other than my kids to ground me and give me hope. 

I very much wish his affair would end.  I’m sure it will at some point, this person has already had multiple failed marriages/ engagements and how either could really trust the other I have no idea.  He has expressed that he wishes he had done more sexually before marriage and I guess he’s trying to live out that fantasy now. 

Is it really clinging/boomerang if he only talks to me about divorce paperwork and the kids?  With the kids, it’s minimal contact and when he calls to talk to them I usually hand the phone directly to them.  He’s blocked me on social media and doesn’t follow me anymore either.

He tells me how happy he is and despite his mom telling him he feels guilty that he feels no guilt at all.  Can this really be true?  It seems that someone who is really happy wouldn’t be cruel and wouldn’t need to tell everyone how happy they are.  He also has a therapist who is justifying what he is doing. 

How long do they typically get stuck in the replay stage?  It seems where he is right now trying to find himself and finally figuring out who he is and not just do what he’s supposed to. 

How do these people justify turning their back on their kids?  Kids I know he deeply loves.  How do I help my kids through this?  I don’t want to alienate them from their dad, but realize I can’t just cover up all his sins or lie to them.  They are smart and even the 8 yo told his younger sister she shouldn’t believe the garbage that dad tells her. 

[xyzcf]

Is it really clinging/boomerang if he only talks to me about divorce paperwork and the kids?

He may or may not be. Time will tell. Some MLCers completely vanish and you never hear from them. It doesn't matter really although sometimes having a clinger makes it very confusing.

He tells me how happy he is and despite his mom telling him he feels guilty that he feels no guilt at all.  Can this really be true?

Yes. We think they should feel tremendous guilt for what they are doing but somehow they do not seem to feel "guilt"..then again they don't feel much of anything.

How long do they typically get stuck in the replay stage?

There really is no answer to this. Although there are "stages" I would suggest not to get hung up on them or any specific time frames because it is very different for each case.

How do these people justify turning their back on their kids?  Kids I know he deeply loves.  How do I help my kids through this?  I don’t want to alienate them from their dad, but realize I can’t just cover up all his sins or lie to them.

Some have said that they revert to a time in their lives before they were married and had children...so may not even "accept" that they have kids. This is what differentiates MLC to me. In some marriages that end, both parents make a real effort to have regular visitation with the children and remain committed to their lives. MLCer turn away and may not see their children often or care much about them.

You help your kids by becoming whole and healthy. That's hard because you are hurting so much and your energy levels are low. They are helped to know that you are going to be with them, and that you are still a family. They may also benefit from therapy at some point.

They don't need to know all the details about what is happening with their father and that is a fine line between being honest but not always sharing things that might not be age appropriate for them.
 

I am heavily leaning on my faith right now as it feels like the only thing other than my kids to ground me and give me hope.

I know that I listen to God's voice. I take comfort in His care and love for me and I try very hard to trust in His plan for my life. I live very much by scripture  "love one another as I have loved you"..Christ tells us to love those who hurt us, those who are our enemies. I have found this to be the best way for me to deal with this.

I know that something is very wrong with my husband and the only thing I can continue to do is to love him unconditionally and with agape love. This is not the "world's way" but my faith has lead me to do this...and in the midst of my deepest pain, Our Lord has shown me that he is with me and sees every tear.

Rejoice Ministries helped me a great deal to love this way...and I am grateful on many levels, to be at peace as much as possible with what has happened.

[JohnnyBravo]

Hi, L&B

Sorry to see you here, but you're in the right place. I'm a newbie (this all started for me last April), but there is a lot of support here. A moderator named OldPilot will be along soon to post a list of articles to get you started, but reading the articles does seem to help. The site owner, RollerCoasterRider, is starting her "Detach and Thrive" class again soon, which I found helpful. It includes live Zoom group sessions, so you can talk with others who are going through this.

Hang in there,

JB

[Pacman]

LB sorry to see you her, I too, like JB am a newbie. BD June 2021.
There are a lot of "veterans" here who will give you some great advice.

One thing that is constantly reinforced is take some time for yourself and look after you.

[5hilmerton]

Following your journey,
5hil

[Standing Strong]

Hi LB,

So sorry you're going thru this.

Going to be a lot of dark times, but it will get better. Lots of great insight from others already.
Something that helps is to journal all the time.

Hold on, you're going to be ok. 

-SS

[Imgood]

Hi LB, I’m a newbie here. I haven’t posted much but I’m always on here reading the articles and threads of others. My advice is to let the tears fall, you have to go through it. You have to let yourself feel your pain. For me, so far, that was the worst part and I experienced that for a couple of months after bomb drop but then day by day, I detached and got stronger and stronger and you will too. I am at the point now and have been, where I know that either way, I’m going to be alright and for me, that was a huge relief. In the beginning, I wanted nothing more than to reconcile and have him move back home. That is no longer how I feel. If he were to come to me tomorrow and want to move back home, the answer would be no. I would never let him just move, right back in. I’m open to reconciling but I’m in no rush and it’s a great place to be! I’m sorry you find yourself here but hang in there! On this site, you will receive love, support, guidance, advice and when needed 2x4’s! This is an amazing community of people!

[Reinventing]

I agree that people don't push the MLCer away or closer. The MLCer is on a very stubborn path. Some MLCers report that it is like they are watching themselves on a movie screen. Many say that they feel that they HAVE to do this. That they will die otherwise.

One thing that helped me was to limit conversations with the MLCer, and if needed, to converse about very practical things only because their excuses are really their rationalizations at that moment and can cause a lot of long-term pain for you. And they mean nothing. The MLCer will saying anything to rationalize what they are doing since what they are doing is not rational. If you can protect your psyche from that, it is better for you in the short and long run.

Their "new" life is a big source of dopamine and like a drug addiction they will do anything to keep it and defend it.

[MomOfSteel]

I really wish I would have found these forums and information right after the BD.  I’m pretty sure I made things worse and wonder if he would at least still be in the house.  How do you stop beating yourself up over mistakes you have made?  My H is the type that when he decides something he usually doesn’t turn back.  I wonder if that is how this will be as well.  How do you deal with the anxiety and the constant thoughts of them?  For those of you who have gone throughout divorce what do you wish you knew at the beginning?  Do you tell you MLC if the kids want to talk to them because they miss him or do you just let it be?  My H at least seems to want to maintain some relationship with the kids, even though it only amounts to a couple weekends a month and a phone call or two a week.  Do I encourage more interaction with them or just let him drive it?  My oldest two don’t particularly want to bother because they are hurt but the younger two are really don’t get it.

[xyzcf]

Good questions but I am not sure there are any clear cut answers. There are patterns perhaps, but each MLC is different, each marriage and family is different. We often try and resolve life's challenges with communication, therapy, reading self help books. Trying to find ways to "fix it". And often that is effective. Not so with MLC.

I’m pretty sure I made things worse and wonder if he would at least still be in the house

Any reactions we had with bomb drop and beyond were normal for what was being thrown at us. You did not make things worse. He is having a crisis and you could not stop it, and I really believe that it would not have mattered the circumstances, who he was married to, he still would have had a crisis.

Some  MLCer's do not leave home but that doesn't make things better. A member from many years ago who I am good friends with, her husband moved into their basement and lived several years there before he moved out. He would just come and go as he pleased and didn't really have any better relationship with his kids then he did once he moved away.

How do you deal with the anxiety and the constant thoughts of them?

Sometimes, it is necessary to take medication. Lots of exercise and activities that can take your mind off him and the situation. I have never been successful at controlling my thoughts about him. I think about him every day but those thoughts don't upset me the way they once did. I think facing the reality of what has happened and the thoughts are essential for our healing to occur. A therapist may be able to help you do this..but it will take time and there are always triggers. The way your body responds to these triggers will determine how well you feel.

Yoga and meditation can be helpful in calming the body's response to trauma.

For those of you who have gone throughout divorce what do you wish you knew at the beginning?

I wish I knew that he would not care about my well being. He was the one wanting out of the marriage. I mistakenly assumed that he would be willing to still make sure I was ok. That was not the case. I was so shocked by all this that I did not push harder for a settlement that I should have had, although I was fortunate to get what I did.

Sometimes people say let them own the divorce and don't do anything to "help"..I think this is a mistake. It is vital that we take responsibility to protect our families and our financial security. They are not going to "love us more" because we don't fight for what is necessary to live.

Do you tell you MLC if the kids want to talk to them because they miss him or do you just let it be? 

It probably won't change anything but if you want to tell him this go ahead and do so. So often the LBSer feels that they must not do this or say that....afraid of making things worse.

The problem is, they are not just leaving us, they leave their children as well. Eventually, what I have seen is that even if they never return to us, often they will make attempts to be involved on some level with their children...but not all do. Some walk away and don't really take on responsibility for their kids.

Others will add some reflections. My daughter was an adult when this happened and was not living with us, so it is different then when you have younger kids.

[Ready2Transform]

I’m pretty sure I made things worse and wonder if he would at least still be in the house.  How do you stop beating yourself up over mistakes you have made?

Acceptance comes, but know that you really didn't make any mistakes. You behaved as any normal person would given the situation! All of us have likely had that same exact thought at some point, but ultimately none of us were responsible for whether they decided to go or not. And having them in the house, in most cases, is years of crazy-making. You and your children are not in the position of having to constantly gauge his moods and respond accordingly, which would be far more detrimental than all of you being a support system for each other like you are now.

How do you deal with the anxiety and the constant thoughts of them?

It will not always be this way - know that. But it felt to me at the time that I had a "broken brain" when I could no longer think like myself because of the ruminating and burning feeling I constantly walked around with. It made me feel more weak and vulnerable. How could I have been an intelligent, strong woman one day, then bam! Within one BD conversation I end up co-dependent and tragic for years? Years later I found a piece on the concept of "Complicated Grief" (it's worth the google) and it made what happen make more sense. It shares a lot in common with C-PTSD. I back up everything xyz said on methods of getting through it. Make your self-care on this one of your biggest priorities, and you'll be able, as you get some coping mechanisms in place, to see the situation from a different perspective and make choices in line with that. It's a gradual improvement, and be kind to yourself throughout because this is no small thing you've been thrust into, but a hill that's definitely worth climbing.

For those of you who have gone throughout divorce what do you wish you knew at the beginning?

I also back xyz up on this one, especially this part:

Sometimes people say let them own the divorce and don't do anything to "help"..I think this is a mistake. It is vital that we take responsibility to protect our families and our financial security. They are not going to "love us more" because we don't fight for what is necessary to live.

If divorce is imminent, you put yourself at a disservice if you're not an active player in your family's future. I had a lazy lawyer, and reconciliation was more important to me than equity. I ended up saddled with all of the joint debt, went through bankruptcy and mortgage drama that I could never have imagined happening. Even if you're not the one to file (but if it makes more sense for you to do it, DO IT), make no assumptions that this is a team effort to make you and your kids whole. Surround yourself with friends and family who love you, and let them be your rock when your H is not. You have all been casualty enough to his crisis. Best case scenario for reconciliation - if he does cycle back and out of his crisis to return to the family, you have protected the assets and what you have built together to the best of your ability. I too think that's a better take on it than letting it be "their" divorce out of an emotional principle. It doesn't seem from what I've seen for the past ten years I've been on this forum that it makes a bit of difference in reconciliation to let them helm it.

Big hugs to you. You will be able to handle whatever comes at you throughout this, know that. But on days where it feels like you can't, lean on us here.

[5hilmerton]

Hey LeftandB,
pretty sure we all made mistakes trying to fix what we did not know was broken.  Being blindsided with the BD will send anyone spinning into uncharted territory.

What i have learned, from BD for the next undetermined amount of years,  we are not dealing with the man or woman we fell in love with.  That person has basically been banished and the new person is like an evil twin.  Even when we see what we hope is them coming out, it's like the evil twin pushes them back down into the dark tunnel.

You will hear and read so much wonderful information and a lot that will leave you scratching your head. Don't let all of the information drag you down into a sink hole.  You may use it and you may not.  Or you may just bank it for later.  There is no quick fix and what works for one may not work for you.  Don't doubt yourself, this is his journey to travel and your time to grow.

5hil

[MomOfSteel]

Thank you all for your insights and support.  I am in therapy which helps some.  I am not very patient.  Has anyone tried EMDR?  Someone suggested it might be helpful for the trauma of the betrayal.  I have yet to talk to anyone who has actually done it though. 

I saw on some midlife crisis website, I don’t even know where at this point that you shouldn’t talk to their family.  I’m super close to his family and am wondering why this would be a bad thing.  They also feel betrayed by his actions. 

[Reinventing]

Some have found that blood is thicker than water in the end. Even though the in-laws disagree with the MLCer's choices, they have to craft a relationship with him and eventually have OW as part of it, more often than not.

So eventually the LBS can feel that the in-laws have accepted OW as a replacement of themselves and have a lot of hurt feelings.

[UrsaMajor]

Good Morning L&B,

Welcome to the party to which no one EVER wanted an invitation. I am glad that you have found us but sorry that you needed to. What you describe in terms of your STBXW sounds like he has taken the script right out of "How to have a Mid-Life Crisis for Dummies" and is following it to the letter...

With respect to "making mistakes" and pushing him farther away, you could have set off a nuke in his underwear and it would not have made the slightest difference. No matter what you were to do or say, the Mid-Lifer is off on their own journey. It is NOT your crisis, it is NOT your fault and there is absolutely NOTHING that you could have done, can do or did that would have made any difference in the long term.... Therefore, the best advice that I can give is to do what you need to do for YOU and your kids. They are going to need you as you will be the "stable and consistent" person in their lives going forward. The Mid-Lifer MAY (or may not,  some do, some don't - particularly & unfortunately - the male MLC'ers) do the occasional "Daddy-Drive-By" but it is nothing that you can really count on... Actually, the one and ONLY thing that you can count on with a Mid-Lifer is that they can NOT be counted on for ANYTHING... The person formerly known as "Spouse" has been replaced with an alien that LOOKS like Spouse but has absolutely NOTHING in common with them...

Regarding STBXH's family, it is a hard call. We (the LBS) can be close to their family but, after the Mid-Lifer starts spinning their story, the family falls away and sides with the Mid-Lifer. By the same token, there are others here that are closer to the family of the Mid-Lifer than the Mid-Lifer themselves because the MLC'er has burned all those bridges.  It is really like dancing through a minefield

As far as EMDR goes, Treasur has had some significant experience with it as a way out of PSTD....

This is a community of people who have all, in some form or another, been through what you are going through. We will all have advice and some of it will be contradictory as we have all experienced the trip down MLC Lane differently so take what feels right and works for you and what doesn't you can leave at the door. In addition, we have members from all over the world (I am in Germany for example) so the odds are good that whenever you post, someone will be around and will answer relatively quickly.

UM

[Songanddance]

Thank you all for your insights and support.  I am in therapy which helps some.  I am not very patient.  Has anyone tried EMDR?  Someone suggested it might be helpful for the trauma of the betrayal.  I have yet to talk to anyone who has actually done it though. 

I saw on some midlife crisis website, I don’t even know where at this point that you shouldn’t talk to their family.  I’m super close to his family and am wondering why this would be a bad thing.  They also feel betrayed by his actions.

EMDR - yes me and it worked brilliantly. However it was for a long standing trauma.  EMDR really helps but it isn't a cure. It just helps you re-process and conceptualise what happened.  I think it is too soon for you to receive this as your BD and feelings of betrayal need to be processed and the tears need to fall and the pain and distress needs to be felt.

Let me explain why. Five months after BD I was an unmitigated mess. I found a therapist (she saved me). She helped me with lots of strategies and techniques.  She used EMDR on me when I was getting upset about how I lost my dad way back in 1997.  She helped me realise that his final actions of squeezing my hand minutes before he lost consciousness was his way of allowing me to say goodbye. Up until then I had always felt it was saying goodbye but I couldn't reconcile myself to it. I couldn't cope with the fact that I hadn't said goodbye to him either.  The EMDR re-processed that memory so that it still remained but the perception of how we said goodbye altered slightly.

I asked her to use EMDR on me for all the triggers I was having post BD and she refused because she believed I had to process my emotions and understanding of what happened to me first. It was not the right thing to try and change my perception of what H had done and it wouldn't take the pain or memory away.  However she gave me some amazing techniques to use to help deal with the triggers and the intensity of my emotion.

Talking with his family has to be a choice for you and not some generic decision. Some members of the family may be supportive but be careful how much you dump on them or discuss H and what he has done to the N'th degree. Some members of the family will block you or ignore you - leave them to it. You will not be able to change their minds.

My H's brother was supportive and trod a really good line being kind to H and friendly with him as he was with me but he never wanted to discuss what had happened in any detail. That was ok with me.

H's half sisters kept well out of it.  Although there was one occasion where I met the oldest one and she couldn't really look me in the eye and I felt like a pariah.  I later learned though that the middle sister tacitly supported me (and had berated H frequently)  but just kept out of it.

That's what you need, family that will support you, be kind and friendly but they will also help the situation by keeping a healthy distance so that H has little ammunition against you and your children will be able to still see those members of the family (if you want them to)

BTW - I'm nearly 9 years post BD and H and I haven't reconciled ; we have reconnected but H doesn't want to commit to the marriage and so we are mutually separating. H was a stay at home high replayer with OW for 3.5 years. It's a been a long road and you are in the right place for fantastic help.  My advice - become a student of MLC. Read and re-read as much as you can of the articles on here and others. All of us on here know exactly what you are going through and we are here to support you.

[MomOfSteel]

Thank you for the EMDR insights.  It makes sense that it probably isn’t something to use until further out in the process.  I feel desperate for relief from the emotions of all this.  Other than exercise, self care and therapy, are there techniques people have found helpful? 

It’s interesting with family.  My MLCer has effectively burned bridges with his whole family.  I should probably be more guarded but they all feel like he abandoned them as well. 

It really does feel like his body is being inhabited by an alien.  It’s hard when occasionally he uses a nickname or says something that it’s almost like the old him.  He really has just gone down the midlife crisis checklist though and done it all.  For someone so intelligent he seems…. Like a complete idiot.  It’s like he’s flying by the seat of his pants and making decision after decision with huge consequences on a whim without thinking of what the repercussions will be.  He also seems to have a therapist that helps him justify his actions. 

Other people I’ve talked to who have talked to him say he has enough self awareness to say he knows what he’s doing is wrong, he just doesn’t really care right now.  It seems like that would fit with someone who feels like they are watching themselves and almost an out of body experience. 

I can’t believe how long some of you have been dealing with the MLC.  I wish there was a more predictable timeline and outcome for all of this.  I hate feeling like I don’t know which way is up after all the gaslighting and garbage. 

[MomOfSteel]

I feel like I’ve lost myself.  Anyone else?  How do you rediscover your own goals and ambitions when for so long you were helping them reach theirs?  I now realize how much I’ve given up over the years and now I feel like I don’t even know where to start.  I need something to occupy more time in a good way.  Ruminating on H’s midlife crisis needs to stop

[HeavenlyFocus]

I feel like I’ve lost myself.  Anyone else?  How do you rediscover your own goals and ambitions when for so long you were helping them reach theirs?  I now realize how much I’ve given up over the years and now I feel like I don’t even know where to start.  I need something to occupy more time in a good way.  Ruminating on H’s midlife crisis needs to stop

I too lost myself as much of my life was dealing with my XW's health issues and supporting the family.  Since BD, I have slowly starting to rediscover myself and have focused more on my life and less on my MLC XW.    It's actually fun to think about new possibilities in my life.    Moving forward and not looking back.

HF

[Ready2Transform]

Just keep reminding yourself, as you navigate through, that these are only feelings that are the result of the shock, trauma, anxiety, and grief this situation causes. *You* are still in there. Your neurotransmitters are racing to adjust to the new normal, and that causes physical changes, emotional changes, and thoughts that don't feel like us. It will get better, and you are doing everything in your own conscious power to help. Proud of you! You are doing all the right things. Big hugs!!

[Imgood]

I don’t know, I think everyone is different. I’ve been separated almost a year and a half and in the beginning, I couldn’t do anything accept think about H and everything that was happening with us. It’s only in the last few months I would say, that I’ve started to think about me and what interests me. I think you first have to get through the shock and then start dealing with the pain. I think when you’re a little further down the road and more detached from all of it, that is when you will just naturally start to think about reconnecting with yourself. In the meantime, be gentle with yourself. Rest when tired. I found it to be extremely, mentally exhausting for a significant period of time.

[UrsaMajor]

I feel like I’ve lost myself.  Anyone else?  How do you rediscover your own goals and ambitions when for so long you were helping them reach theirs?  I now realize how much I’ve given up over the years and now I feel like I don’t even know where to start.  I need something to occupy more time in a good way.  Ruminating on H’s midlife crisis needs to stop

I could write a book on this..... I started off by having to furnish my apartment after the house was sold for myself and my kids after actually FINDING an apartment.... That, in itself was a challenge because I had never lived 100% alone before. I had either been in the Navy so had quarters provided or shared a house with others so only had my own room to deal with. I had no idea what my own tastes in furniture ran to.... so that was a learning experience in itself - Pinterest was a good friend to me at that point to get ideas.

Other than that, there were some things that I had stopped doing to make the marriage work and those were things I took up again - singing in my church choir, actually GOING to church regularly, restarting my studies in Theology... Prior to getting married, I sold my motorcycle so after the ABD and separation, I bought a used one and started riding again (Wind Therapy is a real thing!)....

Basically, think about things that you used to do that have been set aside in your role as W and mom (if applicable) and see if there are any of them that still appeal to you... It may take a bit to get back into the swing of things but it is possible..... Want to start/complete a degree program? DO IT!  Learn a new skill, take up a hobby that has always fascinated you? Try it! You are only limited by your own imagination and your own life so you have the chance to really look at things, rebalance, recover, reform, and re-live!

[MomOfSteel]

I guess I should stop pressuring myself so much right now.  It’s helpful to have that perspective so thank you!  I will reinvest my time in things I used to like and see where that brings me. 

As I’ve been reading through old threads, especially the ones where a MLCer is sharing what they went through it is really helping.  I’m now wondering if when my H says something like, “why would I want to be with you you, bleh bleh bleh” then it’s usually followed up by something like, “and what, you would still want our marriage?” Is he anchor checking in a super mean way?  It’s like he will throw some question out like that every few weeks.  I don’t really know how to respond other than,”you know how I feel”. He usually then tells me I’m pathetic.  How should I respond? 

[MomOfSteel]

Also, since he’s filed already, do I drag things out in the hopes he wakes up or just try to move it along?  We have 4 kids if that matters. 

[barbiedoll]

Hello Left and a belated welcome to HS.  You have some great support and advise as you move forward in this horrible situation. I have read your story and I am indeed sorry that this has happened . I feel breathless when I read your story and can certainly understand how it feels like the air has been sucker-punched out of your life. I felt that way ...we all suffered profoundly . I guess what I mean is that you just need to take deep huge breathes and know that you do not have to decide 1 single thing at this moment. Not 1 . You have the absolute right to stay silent and not respond , to calm yourself and work on selfcare , things that you find pleasure in and ways to settle out of control emotions. A cacoon from crazy ..if you will. Nothing needs to be done at top speed or with any urgency . MLC takes an incredibly long long time . It/he will not go away anytime soon.

Your husband sure meets the criteria for MLC , no question. It will now be a very rough ride , perhaps for years . That time is a gift ( trust me) because living with a man that is in crisis is mentally and emotionally soul sucking . I found my life became just a tiny bit easier when he left...I felt like I was dying with him in the house. Use this time/gift to focus only on you and your children. That will take time to acheive this focus and it will be one of the hardest things to do. Let him blow in the wind and just stay out of his way. This crisis is his and HIS alone and has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with you, your marriage or your family. Something inside of him is broken and the path to "fixing himself" cannot be influenced or controlled by anything you say or do. Nothing. He is not hearing anything you are saying and even if he is , he is twisting it to accomadate his crazy crisis thinking right now.  Save your power and energy for your own life.

Divorce. He filed . Divorce will not change anything if there is a reconcilliation in the future. Some LBS do agree with a fast divorce as the desperation of the MLC'er seems to afford the LBS a far better financial "deal". They are so desperate to escape from their pain that they belive a divorce and getting rid of you ...will set them free and somehow resolve their pain. Of course this is untrue 100% ...but they seem to sign anything to get "unmarried". I know that Tornup divorced very quickly and it worked to her advantage incredibly. Others resfuse to agree to divorce, refuse to sign a thing and basically ignores all attempts of divorcing hoping the crisis ends somehow and a divorce does not happen. My opinion?   You have 4 kids?  Whatever gives you financial security, a child support order and pocession of your home etc etc... has to be # 1 priority . To severe financial responsibilities with him would be a priority because the money and debt they can accumulate is astronomical. You must make sure you can raise kids a keep a roof over their heads . So the decision is yours based on those suggestions. Others will be along with their views as well.

I do hope you have a good therapist trained in trauma . This is trauma Left and many of us ( including me ) have been diagnosed with PTSD. I also have had EMDR and it helped without question.  Take good care of YOU and find ways that you repeatedly respond to your H and his "monster" statements at you. " I am sorry you feel that way, I understand,Uh-huh, I see, " and other such statements. ASK HIM NOTHING . No question marks should be at the end of any sentence ( unless of course it is regarding children).  Nothing. To tell you, that you are pathetic is unacceptable and abusive.  I would not accept that at anytime. It may be as simple as a huge boundary ..." do NOT speak to me like that. That conversation is over until you can talk to me with respect". And end the conversation . Repeat. Repeat . That should not be tolerated . 

Keep posting ...so many good people here that do care very much for you.

[KellBell]

L and B- I've been following along with your story. You aren't far from BD as far as the MLC timeline goes. And honestly, I'm right there with you (only 7 months out). I have absolutely devoured every article I can find regarding MLC just so that I can attempt know what my H is going through.

My take on what your describing and these are just my opinions so do with that what you will:

1)  And if he's filed- I'm guessing he's on a mission. You can attempt to hold things up, but my guess is his mind is made up. You can take your time responding to legal matters, but I fear if you go out of your way to drag it out will only anger him more. How far in the process are you? If there is still time for negotiations- those could take time. And parenting agreements too.

2). I'm sorry he is mean. My H gets angry like a spoiled child but has never said anything mean to me. I can't imagine what you are going through and no one should have to put up with verbal abuse. I would limit contact with him until he can learn boundaries - first and foremost for your emotional well being and sanity. And secondly for your children. They do not need to see or hear their father talking to their mother that way. Boundaries are how you are going to navigate this. And the boundaries are for him; to protect you and the kids from him.

3). I'm not sure he's anchor checking as much as he is just being a spoiled selfish entitled man-child. They say and will continue to say confusing things. Hurtful, mean and confusing things. My H says things like "I'm such a loser - why would you even want to be married to me anyway?" Now there are different ways to look at this. Is he insecure and seeking validation? Possibly. Is he trying to convince himself that I to feel like divorce is the best option and we'd both be better off because why would I want to be with a loser? And thus relieving him of accountability for his actions--- most definitely! I hate that MLCers do it (well honestly there is alot to not like) but the gaslighting and trying to point out why you should see that this marriage was horrible and a dumpster fire too...is top notch crap. So just ignore it.

All of this is easier said than done. We all preach detach and GAL...but holy buckets- it's so so so hard and it takes TIME. I wish it was just a switch, but the heart doesn't work that way. If your H had died (which to some of us it feels like a death) no one would be expecting you to be past the grieving point yet. It's all so raw and real right now. And with kids- that hurt is multiplied and amplified because you can't fix their hurt. Moms an dads are supposed to make things all better for our kids...and in this instance we can't. So our heart breaks all over again for them.

My advice and again take it however you want. Would be to refrain from interactions with H as much as possible. Talk through your attorneys on legal matters. Which is hard because you miss them so much that any contact with them is something. But this will also buy you some time and give you two space. Attorneys have their own schedules. Only talk to him if you have to regarding the kids and visitation. In this stage he is not capable of giving you the responses and emotions you want, need or deserve. You will get no answers. You will get no apologies. You won't get common sense. And you won't get calm, cool and collected. Which isn't fair for us. But that's how it is at this moment and the foreseeable future. Open your mind to accepting those truths. It helps me to think of it as my H 'not being capable' of expressing those things as opposed to not wanting to. By doing that I keep from being overwhelmed with anger and judgement towards him. 

this is a long tough road. And even if we stick by them and stand...the end result that we want is not guaranteed. Trust your gut. First and foremost, put you and the kids first. Your health and happiness comes first. And we can't take care of our children if we neglect ourselves. So self help is a must. If you haven't found a IC or therapist, please do. And even a family counselor for the children. A safe place for them to express how they are feeling. My 10 yo D finds it hard to tell me things- not because she doesn't trust me but because she doesn't want to give me more to deal with and make me more sad. And sometimes they don't even know what they are feeling. Disappointment and grief are BIG emotions for little ones. Just my two cents on the importance of therapy.

if you ever need to talk- message me. I hope something in this mess of words helps.

[MomOfSteel]

Hmm, I do think you are onto something with him trying to convince me that the divorce is best for both of us.  We are just at the beginning of the process.  I haven’t even filed my response to his petition yet, that happens tomorrow then will file for temporary support.  Basically nothing has happened except for him filing.  In our situation I think it will likely take at least a year because of his income and other studies his lawyer is planning on doing that take time. 

I have tried to set boundaries somewhat and often just hang up when he starts being really mean.  I’m to the point I try to keep most communication through text or email.  He doesn’t seem to understand it isn’t my job to help him anymore either.  It’s like every time I set a new boundary or don’t do something he expects like I used to there is a tantrum. 

I am in therapy and looking for someone for the kids.  Hopefully this will help.  I think I may need to switch to someone specializing in trauma. 

[KellBell]

Make the best use of the time the divorce process gives you. For you and the children. H needs to learn to do things on his own. I remember the day after my H moved out- he texted me  a picture of a shirt and pants and asked me if they went together. I was like WTH? Are you serious? And even now- he tries to get me to do things for him. He needed help filing insurance stuff- I always used to do it. Nope. I'm sorry. But not my job anymore. And quite frankly too busy dealing with other things. Could I do it- yes. Would it be difficult- no. But it's a boundary. And it's confusing and silly and we still love them and want to be helpful. So it's just a mess. Just try to distance yourself. Because we can't 'nice' them back. And honestly they are just asking us to do it for them because they are being lazy. Not because they value us, our time or the way we do it.

gaslighting- yup! You will become an expert at recognizing it and it will be annoying and stupid. And sometimes you will question just how old they really are.

Remember it's still ok to cry and break down. It takes time...and it can sneak up on you. You will begin to notice that thoughts, sadness and emotional breaks start to space out. And hours of no contact become days and even weeks. In 25 years I've never gone a day without talking to my H and literally overnight he went to complete nothing. No response. Cold. And the silence is just gut wrenching. I did notice early on though that talking about us and our marriage and what he was doing would send him into radio silence. Talking about stupid stuff can get him on a 20 minute rant and then he texts regularly like old times. It's a weird dynamic. Anyway use this time to process your emotions. There is no doubt he's being stupid and selfish and a jerk. MLC or not. And YOU would be a good person even if you didn't progress, but you can grow and learn and come out an even better version of yourself and that's our upside. A chance to really focus on ourselves, what we want, need and hope to do and it's well deserved 'me time'.

[barbiedoll]

I remember the day after my H moved out- he texted me  a picture of a shirt and pants and asked me if they went together. I was like WTH? Are you serious?

.

It boggles the brain does it not ?   Who can possibly make any sense of that?  Mine was just as insane . The day after he moved out he text  at 7 am and said " do you still want me to bring your morning coffee?. "   

[Treasur]

In this stage he is not capable of giving you the responses and emotions you want, need or deserve. You will get no answers. You will get no apologies. You won't get common sense.

I would agree with this in my own experience too.
Tbh my xh got nastier and more ridiculous and irrational after he filed. For the divorce he apparently wanted so much. My best guess is that the process tends to demand some adulting and has some practical consequences they don’t much like.
Looking back it took me about a year to get in my bones that the above quote was reality and to refuse to interact with him directly bc it took a huge toll on my wellbeing. And it was futile tbh, absolutely futile. Nothing I did made any difference and he was so irrational and lied so much that even the simplest of arrangements or agreements became impossible. And he STILL dragged his feet legally, lying to his own lawyer, to mine, while complaining about how stressful it all was and as if the legal process came as a big shock to him. Ah, crazy days  But just to warn you that filing does not mean he will be much cop at following through or that you can trust anything much that he says. And of course often there is an ow in the mix with her own agenda who doesn’t care about what happens to you or your kids  It’s hard to change our expectations, I know, but wise to keep them very low.

I’d agree with others too about limiting contact. One of the practical implications of divorce that seems to come as a bit of a surprise to these folks is that they have fired you from your old job of paying much attention to their opinion of anything including you  And it’s a pretty normal boundary in life that if another adult won’t speak civilly to you as a bare minimum, you are under no obligation to speak to them at all.

So, do what is legally, financially and emotionally best for you and your children. No more, no less.

[forthetrees]

Harriet Lerner PhD wrote a book called The Dance of Anger and it would explain the dynamic of him getting pissy when you enforce a boundary or don´t do what you used to do for him.

[MomOfSteel]

Thank you for the book recommendation, I will look into it.  I got a message shortly after my last post angry his lawyer hadn’t gotten my response yet.  I’m working on controlling my own response.  I realize that he has expected me to regulate his emotions and I’ve felt responsible for his unhappiness for a long time.  Those codependent habits are really hard to break.  It makes me feel like I have done something wrong even though in my head I know I haven’t. 

I don’t think he will legally drag his feet.  I get the impression he thinks his guilt will go away after divorce and right now since I am obviously the cause of all his problems in life he can’t wait to be rid of me.  There is just so much anger there. 

[JohnnyBravo]

Hmm, I do think you are onto something with him trying to convince me that the divorce is best for both of us.

Even though my wife has been mild on the monster scale, she said something similar: "Once you get past the hurt, you'll realize that you don't like me very much." While we certainly had differences, that's a bunch of baloney; more likely her not liking herself very much.

[MomOfSteel]

Yeah, I’ve gotten the “in the end this will be better for everyone” and “you will eventually be happier” and “you could never forgive me”.   

The mental gymnastics the MLCer must perform is really quite the feat.  I honestly just don’t understand how they convince themselves all these lies are true.  I also find it funny someone who is so “happy” is not nicer and has to go around telling everyone how they are so happy.  The dead look in his eyes certainly doesn’t seem consistent with someone who is very happy. 

It also is so strange to me that someone who wants to be admired and respected can just make these decisions and not realize that the only one who doesn’t see through it is the OP.  Losing respect and in this case their relationships with their whole extended family, immediate family and lifelong friends is somehow worth this new image and happiness they seem to be chasing. 

If nothing else I am at least starting to realize that there were some unhealthy patterns we had fallen into.  Having distance has at least made me realize there are things that I should not tolerate in the future whether that is with H or someone else. 

I won’t get common sense, isn’t that the truth.  I feel like the contradictions, both in words and behavior as well as just some really stupid, rash out of character decisions is the new normal.  If I wasn’t living through the repercussions it would almost be amusing sometimes at how ridiculous some of it is.

[UrsaMajor]

I realize that he has expected me to regulate his emotions and I’ve felt responsible for his unhappiness for a long time.  Those codependent habits are really hard to break.  It makes me feel like I have done something wrong even though in my head I know I haven’t. 

If you were to look up the textbook definition in RCRs writings about "Riding/Getting off the Rollercoaster" and "What 'Detaching' REALLY means", this is it. Detaching means divesting yourself of the responsibility for the mental stability/well-being of another human being (which is, in and of itself, and exercise doomed to failure because one human can NEVER be responsible for maintaining the emotional state of another human). It is breaking the exact patterns/habits that you described above.

In my experience (as is often said here "a sample of one"), once xW1 began to comprehend that she was responsible for her own mental state and that I was no longer going to be available to do that job, her Monster ramped up to epic proportions.

JB also has a VERY good point and is spot on when he said

Even though my wife has been mild on the monster scale, she said something similar: "Once you get past the hurt, you'll realize that you don't like me very much." While we certainly had differences, that's a bunch of baloney; more likely her not liking herself very much.

The Mid-Lifer usually has a horribly low self-esteem so, for some, when they go into crisis, they flip to the complete opposite end of the spectrum and become so breathtakingly arrogant that hanging them by their toes from the ceiling fan and using them for a Piñata becomes a viable option. Others crawl into their depression-hole-in-the-ground-pity-party and wallow there for years, blaming everyone and everything for their circumstances (except, of course, themselves for their own choices.

My personal experience with xW2's D (Yeah, I hit the jackpot and found TWO MLC'ers in the making   ) was that, it took her 2 years to file and, once she did, I returned my paperwork to the courts within a week or two after they were requested. It took her 2 YEARS to finally deliver everything that the court had asked for and one time, the court even asked ME  for the documents. I politely responded that the specific documents requested were regarding the Plaintiff (I was the defendant) and were not in my possession nor could I acquire them... so, all in all, it took 4 years for her to finally do everything that needed to be done. However, xW2 is a low-energy Wallower extraordinaire and monster only appeared a couple of times... Once was when she asked me for some help regarding her dog and I said no because I already had plans. I was no longer at her beck and call and she did not like that one bit.... I had dropped the rope, cut the cord and that ship had left the harbour and she wasn't on it....

FWIW - the "Shark eyes" seems to also be a common physical trend for Mid-Lifers so just another one of those things that ticks a "Is this really an MLC? " box

UM

[Schratz66]

I would say welcome Left, but I know nobody wants to be part of this group and yet here we all are and joining us on this forum is the best decision you ever made. I would not have survived the first year without the kind, caring and wise people on here and as much as we think we had these unique wonderful spouses....somehow they read all the same book, say the same words and are such a cliche that it is sort of sad.

Neither you nor anybody else trying to talk sense into MLC made anything worse. At the beginning I thought I could change his mind somehow or he would see quickly what all he lost and turn around and come back. Almost 5 years out and all I can tell you is that they do what they do because they truly turn back into teenagers and are so self absorbed that it boggles the mind.

So glad you are in therapy....and so glad you are reading.....in my ever obsessive ways and because I knew I could 'fix' him I read I don't know how many books and consumed every ounce of knowledge on the subject.....the word on the forum that I hated the most was Time.....and yet, time is truly the only thing that will make things easier.  Write here often, ask every question that pops in your mind and in those moments where you feel you must contact him....write here instead......we have all been there and we have all survived and we are here to help you through

[MomOfSteel]

I will look up those posts- thanks for the heads up.  Detaching is hard when it’s decades of bad habits.  I do think I’m making progress though and can usually at least recognize that I’m taking responsibility and need to stop.  I am not caving to his tantrums and try to not let him know how much they still bother me.  Hopefully at some point it will become automatic and they won’t bother me.  Baby steps I suppose. 

Cliche is right.  When my neighbor found out the first words out of her mouth were what an $&#% cliche, especially considering his career. 

As I’ve thought about My H MLC I think depression started about 4-5 years ago, he would fit the arrogant description.  He’s depressed but not a wallower.  I think he finally recognizes his depression but I’m pretty sure he thinks that in getting away from me that will magically be cured.  Really though as I think about it, the cause is likely his own failing in one part of his career that happened a few years ago.  It’s like he’s living with imposter syndrome and trying to cure it by becoming an even bigger imposter.  He thinks the reason everyone in his family has tried to tell him he’s making a big mistake is that they are jealous of him and his success.  Most are extremely successful in their own right. 

It’s amazing how just reading other people’s stories of going through this is so helpful.  I don’t feel so alone.  Are there patterns of personality type and whether divorce happened or not that show reconciliation is more likely with certain types of MLCers?   Are there those of you who once you worked on yourself enough decided you’d plain had enough?  After being called pathetic and told I should have more self respect than to want my marriage to work (by H) it makes me question my own feelings.  Why don’t I have more self respect?  I guess I feel like when you make vows they mean something.  If we never reconcile or I end up giving up on that notion, I want to be able to walk away knowing I tried all I could and there wasn’t anything else I could do.  I suppose that will become clear with more time and distance. 

[beyondblessed]

Hey there, L&B....I'm not on here much anymore because I'm one of those who fairly early on had enough.  My BD hit the 6 year mark just a few days ago.  My D (he started it, but I finished it) was done within 6 months and decided I was done once I saw the words "irretrievably broken" on those D papers. 

You would have to go back and read my journey, but long story short, I never let much grass grow under my feet once this whole mess started.  I moved on, I made my life my own again, dropped the rope and burned the bridge.  6 years later and much living in between, I've moved to a new city, bought a new home with my fiancé,  and am getting married in April on a Carolina beach.

At this point, I'd have to really think back to those early days to remember the fallout, but I know I was  filled with a tremendous disbelief and unconscionable pain that my xh could so deeply betray me.  It really was like finding my way through my own fog trying to make sense of any of it....which I quickly stopped wasting my time on because nothing would ever explain or make sense of his choices and crazy making.  He lost his way and make choices that irretrievably broke our M.  End of OUR story, but the beginning of MY story.

From what I read thus far, you seem well on your way to detaching and dropping your own rope.  You realize this has absolutely nothing to do with you and nothing said or done on your part can change what he does now or has done prior.  The best you can do is live your life like he isn't coming back and use this time to cultivate and grow your best life.  Anything else will be a waste of time and of great disservice to yourself.

[xyzcf]

Good questions. Here are my answers based upon my experience and beliefs, others will give different responses. You are right though, you are not alone and somehow that is "soothing" when I read other's stories and nod my head in agreement,

Are there patterns of personality type and whether divorce happened or not that show reconciliation is more likely with certain types of MLCers?

 

Many of us searched for this, trying to see if some MLCers were more likely to return than others. I don't believe that there are any patterns, behaviors or personality types that are more likely to return.

One member from years ago was divorced, had her marriage annulled, both she and her spouse were in serious relationships and 7 years later, they married one another once again.

We really do not have any stats regarding how many MLC marriages are reconciled. There is no scientific way to measure this. Too many variables and it is impossible to follow up on all the people who have posted here. I know I looked for "signs" that maybe he would be one to get through his crisis and come back, reading stories of returns initially gave me hope but I have learned the stories really are so different that there is no predicting.

Are there those of you who once you worked on yourself enough decided you’d plain had enough?  After being called pathetic and told I should have more self respect than to want my marriage to work (by H) it makes me question my own feelings.  Why don’t I have more self respect?

MLC is not about me and not about our marriage. I firmly believe that and so "working on myself" had to do with learning to accept that I had no control or input into the ending of what was once a really good life. I did not have any major childhood traumas and we had many wonderful years together. So I get a bit concerned when we think that somehow we had to do "work" to become better. Life is an ongoing journey towards self-actualization (Maslow's term) and one is usually growing and expanding our knowledge and interests as we age. If we are working on ourselves, it most likely is dealing with the trauma of a divorce thrust upon us against our will and the destruction of our family.

You are not pathetic and it's not that you have no "respect" for yourself. People who say these things have no idea at all of the trauma that we go through. The world doesn't believe in the permanency of marriage and thinks that you need to get on with life and forget him...I always think, if he had suffered a stroke, a heart attack, cancer, a serious car accident, would I shut the door and walk away? I know who he was, what he is now is something that has a cause, childhood issues, biochemical, stress, fear of aging  and very much something that happened to him. If you have read stories from other MLCers who are willing to share, it's very clear that this is a very dark time in their lives...not something they purposely choose.

I guess I feel like when you make vows they mean something.  If we never reconcile or I end up giving up on that notion, I want to be able to walk away knowing I tried all I could and there wasn’t anything else I could do

Everyone on HS understands that vows mean something. In my case, doesn't matter if we reconcile.....he cannot change what I promised and it is very very clear to me and always has been.

There is a movie called "Fireproof". It is a Christian movie about a marriage in trouble. When I watched it many years ago I thought it was hookey.....but one thing stood out for me..."you never leave your partner behind in a fire".

This is my belief, was what I was brought up to believe, was what my faith tells me, what God tells me. I am a minority on HS and I think some find me annoying. However,  the growing that we do, if we listen to our inner voice, will lead us to what we must do to stay healthy and well.

For me, it made no difference when I had contact with him and when I didn't have contact with him. It is possible to detach and still have contact and that is how I live, 12 years later.

There is nothing I would change about showing him that he is loved. That is a grace that has been given to me, to be able to be at peace with this, even though it took many years to get here.

Each of us will find our way through. You are doing well and try not to be hurrying through the healing process. It is layers and layers of grief that we must process and will cause other losses as sell to come to the  surface.

[MomOfSteel]

I will try to not be in a hurry.  The pain is so debilitating I just want it to end.  It's interesting how it comes in waves.  After dealing with divorce garbage all day yesterday and having to do more today, I am so emotionally wrung out.  I know I have no choice but to go through the pain, but it is hitting hard.  Add dumpy sleep and anxiety on top and its awful.  Also, been experiencing chest pain and who knows if I'm literally having heart problems or its just the extreme anxiety.  Given my age and health, my doc thinks it just anxiety.

How do you not let the uncertainty eat you alive?   Also, hoping and praying that H will somehow come through this quicker while realizing it could be years if ever.  I feel a little defeated knowing that likely the minimum would be a couple years from now.  I guess the one thing that I can say is that he never does anything half heartedly.  Watching my kids suffer is the worst and not having real answers is really hard.   

Thank you for reassuring me that it isn't my own lack of self respect.  With all the gaslighting, I have to try really hard to figure out what reality is sometimes and also have to work on my own self worth and separating what I am actually responsible for and what has been put on me by someone else.  It really messes with your head.  Thank you all for your thoughtful kind replies.  I am reading and rereading your wise words. 

How do you determine if you MLCer is an actual narcissist or they have become one through their crisis? 

[xyzcf]

The day I signed the separation agreement and put it in the mail, later that night I developed chest pain although I though I was ok. After 45 min, I drove myself to the hospital (stupid thing to do, I know better) and they kept me there overnight because I responded to nitroglycerin. They ran a stress test the next day and I was fine...so anxiety /panic attacks can cause chest pain. It is however important to check it out.

How do you determine if you MLCer is an actual narcissist or they have become one through their crisis?

You can identify a narcissist as a young adult. It doesn't suddenly develop however MLC sure makes it feel like they are a narcissist.

Sometimes the LBSer starts to rewrite history so we may think about times and wonder if they were always this way.

I know for 100% fact that my husband was not a narcissist in the 35 years we were together. I have looked at all those years together trying to find a clue that there was a problem. Other than a regular marriage with it's ups and downs, there really was not anything to indicate this would happen.

How do you not let the uncertainty eat you alive?   

My faith has helped. Placing my trust in God and surrendering my will to His. Not always easy, have to pray about that a great deal...but when I do this, I can relax and let it go...but again, this took me several years to get to a place of peace.

When my anxiety levels were high, and nothing was working to calm myself down,  I had a prescription for Clonezapam which would cut the anxiety and turn the switch off so I could function more calmly again.

Things should be a bit easier once you get through all the divorce paperwork.

I cried every single day...sometimes for hours and I talked to 2 really good friend who listened and supported me without judging.

[Nas]

How do you determine if you MLCer is an actual narcissist or they have become one through their crisis?

Every person here is different, but I'll tell you my experience. I think some believe I've rewritten some of my marriage but in reality, my former H's actions forced me to undergo a very painful and deep process of fully examining myself, my childhood trauma, my relationships (not just to him but to everyone in my life - chosen relationships and familial) and my choices over my entire adult life. In doing so, I stopped looking at my former H as an pod person/MLCer who may or may not "wake up," but instead looked at myself as a woman with a past, present and future and asked myself what did I want for myself (since he was off living a new life). I took him out of the equation because he had already removed himself, and that was when I made the decision to move somewhere new.

What I determined, over a long time of deep, deep examination that was at times very painful and induced a lot of self-blame and self-criticism, is that I could never have seen any of the BD/after BD destruction coming, but in my heart, way, way deep down, I always ignored a nagging feeling that my former H leaned very, very heavily to one side of the narcissist spectrum.

I chose him - I did that - because there was a familiarity about the way he was and the way he treated me. I felt we connected on some deeper level, but really it was me recognizing in him some deep wounding that needed repairing. My "value" to him was similar to what my "value" was to my FOO - and some others I chose to be in my life - choices I made and own, but now know why they were made. (It's funny how deep FOO issues can go and infiltrate our lives if they're not addressed, because prior to my former H, I had other relationships, one in particular that was really supportive and healthy and yet it felt "wrong" to me because I didn't recognize support and healthy partnership and I rejected it as not being right for me.)

So for me, after much examination and asking myself hard questions and looking at hard truths, I had to recognize and admit that I willingly entered into and stayed in a marriage where I was not treated like I matter. And then comes the really difficult but very necessary part. I had to ask myself why. That's the key thing, it's about me and not about him.

That's (part of) my story - as our Acorn says, "a sample of one." You will have your own story, when you're ready. Often immediately after BD, we see our marriage through a lens of "It was the best that could ever be and nothing will compare to it." Then the filter wears away, after some time and self-reflection, and we see what was really there. Often it ends up being "We did have a good marriage, but I can see now that A, B or C issue was always there and just kept getting pushed under the rug..."  No person is perfect, no marriage is perfect. Even still, no one who  loves with good intentions deserves to be deceived and treated with contempt and disrespect.
You can want to leave a relationship for any number of reasons, but to do so with such destruction just shows a dangerously poor character - in some cases, that may be absolutely 100% undeniably the polar opposite of the spouse everyone knew, and in other cases, there may have been some hint (or many hints) that they could someday be capable of such behavior. Either way, the behavior is still happening and all we can do is protect ourselves as best we can, grieve (because it sucks, and it hurts, and it's really difficult) and move forward with our own lives. No matter what happens with him, you matter and you have a life of your own to live.

[KellBell]

Just remember that for all those years there were two of you in the marriage. Two of you who know how it really was. And now one of you is having a mental break down...trust your version of the relationship. No marriage is perfect. They take work, we fall into comfortable patterns and passion ebbs and flows as we navigate the busy-ness of families. You know your husband best and do you really think that if he had been that unhappy for so many years...he would have stayed? Love isn't a switch- he can't unlove you in a day, week or month. But he can resent you, blame you, be jealous of you and intimidated by you. All of those things are the results of his own issues and insecurities. And it's so much easier to blame us. And if he feels intimidated, jealous, angry or resentful towards you- then you can see why he thinks he doesn't love you. Again nothing you did...he just can't possibly blame himself for his inadequacies, depression and general unhappiness.

My H told me that it isn't fair that parenting is so natural to me. (jealous of my relationship with the kids) My H told me after BD that cooking steak soup and homemade sourdough bread made him fat. (his mom's recipe and major blaming). My H told me when he left that I was the strong and capable one. I always have been and that I'll be just fine. (resentment at me having my sh*t together while he was having his inner struggle and meltdown). Ironically these are all things my H used to love about me- my cooking, my parenting and how I mothered and my strength and tenacity. Insecurity is a major hurdle for anyone, but I feel especially for a man. They feel like they should run the house, be in control and head of the family. At some point they realize the one doing it all is really you...and that fuels their insecurities. If they can see it- can everyone see it? I know closer to BD my husband would try to negate compliments people would say about me to him. "Wow- your wife is an amazing photographer- did she take all these?" H-"yes, but I bought her this really great camera that basically takes the pictures for her."  "Kelly is such good cook- those cookies are wonderful!" H- "my mom's recipe." And not even just compliments about me, but our kids too. A co-worker said "hey your daughter is so great such a hard worker and so smart." To which he told D- "what else was he going to say, you're the bosses kid."

He wasn't always like that but as I look back I remember those comments popped up prior to BD when he was withdrawing (which at the time I thought was depression due to Covid and work issues). Those compliments were fueling his insecurity. I'm relaying this for a couple of reasons. But mostly to let you know that eventhough we feel like the rug was pulled out from us overnight...his issues have been brewing for awhile. And really many of this is rooted since childhood. His inability to communicate and deal with stress, insecurities and depression is what caused this. Not you. Or your relationship. But it comes down to marriage being between 2 people working together and right now there is only one trying to make it work. Sucky thing for him though because where ever you go- there you are. You can't run and hide from yourself or your own issues. Those sneeky things just follow you. So you are better off and the kids as well. They really need a healthy capable father that respects their mother regardless of if you are married or not. He needs to be an example to them and in this moment...he's not.

So keep your head up. Lots of self care and love on those kiddos.

[5hilmerton]

L&B,
apologies i need to hijack your post.

NAS, WOW!!
I really felt those words!  Thank you for sharing so much wisdom!  Thank you for sharing the honest work you have done within yourself. As i look deeper into myself, where i was and where i am, i still pull back.  I still bounce around blaming myself while understanding why and the decisions i have made/make.

Thank you,
5hil

[MomOfSteel]

I do need to look at why I chose the way I did.  It is something to think about.  At some point in the future I really don’t want to repeat past relationship mistakes. 

I feel like I am cycling like crazy with every thing he does.  Each request for documents or whatever else.  I know detaching is the answer but feels really hard to do. 

I’ve been reading studies on kids after divorce.  I’m heartbroken for the disadvantage H’s actions will have on my children as they are still so small.  I want to shout from the rooftops what a turd he is being while realizing it won’t do any good.  He’s got an avoidant personality and now I’m questioning whether he really has actually resented me all these years and just kept it bottled up.  I feel like I can’t trust anything anymore.  How do I learn to trust myself when that has led to such heartbreak and betrayal?  How do I ever trust another person to not do the same to me?   How do I trust ever again? 

I hate the OW.  I hate him at this moment too.  How I can simultaneously hate and love him I have no idea. 

[barbiedoll]

He’s got an avoidant personality

.

And there it is again. Although ( of course) I have no statistics, no scientific proof or evidence etc etc., I see this over and over again on HS and in my own personal research. My H also has an avoidant attachment style . I am anxious-pre-occupied in my attachment style which makes for anxiety, huge stress, cycling and profound pain when this happens.  I do talk about my experience with avoidant MLCer alot on my thread although I do believe you will see it as a common characteristic on many others. They key to calm your suffering is to work on calming, self-soothing and managing your own attachment style ...that I presumptuously assume is anxious-pre-occupied. That is a starting place for doing your own "work" and that alone is extremely painful and difficult. I am sorry that this happened ..I truly am.

[forthetrees]

The trust in yourself and in others takes a loooong time to reestablish. In regards to trusting myself, I got better about noticing red flags and accepting them for what they were. My approach when dating got to be, let this person reveal himself to be his authentic self to avoid having to go through another MLC blindsiding experience. This did not happen right away:(. As for trusting others, when I got better at acknowledging red flags, I was able to become more trusting of those who did not raise red flags. The trust is still not back to what it was pre-BD and I have come to accept that it may never reach that level again.

[MomOfSteel]

He’s got an avoidant personality

.

My H also has an avoidant attachment style . I am anxious-pre-occupied in my attachment style which makes for anxiety, huge stress, cycling and profound pain when this happens.  I do talk about my experience with avoidant MLCer alot on my thread although I do believe you will see it as a common characteristic on many others.

You hit the nail on the head, I am an anxious attachment style.  I was actually reading your thread this morning and seeing some similarities.  The anxiety even dealing w/H produces at this point is unreal.  I have gone as dark/dim as I can with still having to deal with kid stuff.  It’s too hard on me emotionally to talk to him or interact.  I do need to work on my own attachment style so it doesn’t impact me as much in the future. 

It’s good to know trusting does become easier with time.  The deep scars this whole journey brings are no joke. 

[MomOfSteel]

I’m guessing there are quite a few avoidant attachment style LBS here.  What ways have you found to fix yourself in regards to that attachment style and learn secure attachment? 

It was a rough weekend for me.  The emotions just tear their ugly head.  COVID doesn’t help having kids in and out of school for exposure quarantines and colds.  I feel like I’m drowning. 

[Nas]

I'm sorry, LandB, I try to imagine what it would've been like if my BD had happened during a pandemic and I can't even grasp it.
There's a discussion right now on Barbie's thread about healing relationship wounds in relationship - I think changing attachment styles comes partly through relationship with (healthy) people with secure attachment styles (along with therapy). This means relationships with family and friends, as you heal from the shock of BD. Rewiring the way we respond to people and situations is a process, but it can be done. As you detach and move forward, you'll be better able to recognize the unhealthy attachments of yourself and others and by spending time with and forging relationship with healthy secure attachment style people, it's like learning to rewrite your own attachment style. (my opinion, anyway, fwiw)

[xyzcf]

It was a rough weekend for me.  The emotions just tear their ugly head.  COVID doesn’t help having kids in and out of school for exposure quarantines and colds.  I feel like I’m drowning.

I still find weekends difficult. Since we both worked, there was a different "vibe" once Friday night came and we switched off the work mode to more of a play mode. Sunday mass together, more time to cook and make interesting foods, have some wine, be with friends and family, watch some football and do yardwork together.

What ways have you found to fix yourself in regards to that attachment style and learn secure attachment?

I have trouble with your words "to fix yourself".

Did you think you had a problem before BD with your attachment style?

Some LBSers have issues stemming from their own past histories but I would suggest that if you were pretty comfortable with who you were before BD, that if your marriage was a healthy one, with difficulties that we all face at times, then by all means explore those parts of you that you  were not fond of before BD.....but this trauma takes the number one position in my mind of recovering and healing.

I don't believe that there was a problem with my attachment to him, to my daughter, to my parents and siblings, indeed to my friends. In my marriage, there were healthy independent areas of interest that we both had, but we also choose to spend time together because it was pleasurable to do so. Couples have individual personalities and I am not one who feels that somehow I need to rewire myself to something that I am not.

Because his crisis is about his issues.

I do strongly feel that the best use of our time towards healing is to deal with the PTSD that is the result of an abrupt change in our lives and the loss of our intimate partner.  The results of that trauma affects our physiology and our psychological well being. It causes de-regulation in our systems. We have difficulty sleeping, eating, focusing and our health suffers. We no longer have the "help" with the children or household work and financially we have lost the security of our life savings and perhaps a two income family. The person that we turned to to talk about the day's issues, to consult with regarding buying a new car or a medical scare..that person is gone.

It is this trauma that requires work and sometimes it is hard to find the right therapist to work on the trauma related symptoms that we are experiencing.

The therapist who helped me the most was a mind/body therapist who helped me identify where in my body I was experiencing distress. She taught me to recognize the feelings and to work with my mind/body/spirit to bring myself back to a place of equilibrium/homeostasis.

There is a lot of research on this type of therapy. One of the excellent books that explain a great deal of what trauma does to us is The Body Keeps The Score . Brain, mind and body in the healing of trauma by Bessel van der Kolk, MD.

Whatever is in the past might have some importance but I would not put as much emphasis on any issues we might have had. Mainly, most MLCers never let us know that there are problems, not sure if that is avoidant or the ability to compartmentalize.

I thought this had interest in thinking about MLCers:

"Compartmentalization is a psychological defense mechanism in which thoughts and feelings that seem to conflict are kept separated or isolated from each other in the mind.[1] It may be a form of mild dissociation; example scenarios that suggest compartmentalization include acting in an isolated moment in a way that logically defies one's own moral code, or dividing one's unpleasant work duties from one's desires to relax.[2] Its purpose is to avoid cognitive dissonance, or the mental discomfort and anxiety caused by a person having conflicting values, cognitions, emotions, beliefs, etc. within themselves.

Compartmentalization allows these conflicting ideas to co-exist by inhibiting direct or explicit acknowledgement and interaction between separate compartmentalized self-states."

My husband feels his ability to compartmentalize is a good thing. I don't agree but again, that's his journey to explore.

[barbiedoll]

Mainly, most MLCers never let us know that there are problems, not sure if that is avoidant or the ability to compartmentalize.

.

From my understanding, you can rarely have one without the other. My H excels at both. There are times compartmentalization is a positive thing I suspect.. like a police officer is able to do a difficult crime scene and keep his emotions separate.  Therapist that can hear tragic situations and keep thier reaction somewhere else. Not sure how useful it is otherwise to  be honest. It certainly is useful for a traumatised child to do so they can survive their childhood.  Or so I am told.

[xyzcf]

It certainly is useful for a traumatised child to do so they can survive their childhood

Yes sexually and physically abused children compartmentalize to survive.

[MomOfSteel]

My husband certainly compartmentalizes and I would say he was avoidant the whole time but that was exacerbated by MLC.  The impression I get is that he is having a hard time reconciling his actions and values he used to hold.  It’s like he has cognitive dissonance in every area of his life.  It’s almost like his compartments are breaking down and he’s frantically trying to fix them by just doing all these things that are out of character. 

In my mind it’s hard to know where mental illness ends and personal choice and accountability begin. 

His best friend called me upset over his behavior today.  His friend is disgusted by his actions and is to the point he’s about ready to give up on H.  Do MLCers realize they are hurting people and just don’t care or do they not even realize what they are doing because they are being so selfish?  Sometimes I wonder how long he can keep this up without having a psychotic break.  At this point, he has no one but the OW.  Is the fog really that strong that they just don’t care at all about any of these relationships? 

He had a good upbringing.  His parents probably told him to suck it up when he was upset but otherwise were loving and a good family.  There was no abuse that I’m aware of. 

[MadLuv]

Do MLCers realize they are hurting people and just don’t care or do they not even realize what they are doing because they are being so selfish?  Sometimes I wonder how long he can keep this up without having a psychotic break.  At this point, he has no one but the OW.  Is the fog really that strong that they just don’t care at all about any of these relationships? 

Not to hijack the post, but  from my avoidant XH he definitely is aware he is causing pain and that is why he is with OW. He doesn’t have to look st those he is causing pain and doesn't have to be reminded. She also doesn’t know him, so what he is now is what she knows. He can be anything he wants to be. He is choosing to be the hero. Also, I think my XH is in a psychotic break. He is living in an extreme fog and living to get through each moment. I dont think he is happy, but I dont think this is a place of extreme pain either. I think for him that is better than pain. It’s all so tragic isn’t it?

[Reinventing]

I think they have serious cognitive dissonance. The dopamine rush of "freedom" from their "old life" is too hard for them to overcome, no matter what their other parts of their brain may be registering. Similar to drug addiction.

I agree with xycf on this point: this trauma takes the number one position in my mind of recovering and healing

I got so that I weighed every decision about what I did with "does this help me heal?" And I am glad that I got to that point.

I was determined to learn about healing, focus my efforts on healing, and do things to help me heal. It took awhile to get there, but I was desperate for relief from the pain and I wanted to get back to some normalcy in my life.

[Treasur]

I agree with xycf on this point: this trauma takes the number one position in my mind of recovering and healing

I got so that I weighed every decision about what I did with "does this help me heal?" And I am glad that I got to that point.

I was determined to learn about healing, focus my efforts on healing, and do things to help me heal. It took awhile to get there, but I was desperate for relief from the pain and I wanted to get back to some normalcy in my life.

#MeToo 

I think xyzcf makes an important point, for you perhaps but also for others reading along, trying to figure out what to ‘fix’ and heal as priorities. Jmo.
All of us are imperfect humans that come with usually the normal distribution of good and not so good traits, things we like and don’t, things others like and don’t, things that serve us and things that don’t.
I think it’s important to try to separate out different issues.
What we were like before life upended and our preexisting toolbox for living a good emotionally healthy life or not.
The complaints and reasons our spouse has given us for leaving, if they have. And wanting to ‘fix’ things in ourselves to meet what we think they want/need.
How trauma, grief and the demands of our specific situation may have affected us in ways that are not how we want them to be.
Imho these are very different things but it can be hard to see that in the middle of this kind of life storm. They can get muddled up and bc our ‘landscape’ changes so dramatically, it can dig up old damage or require different things from us.

You can only do your best to reflect honestly on each and choose what you see as your own path to recovery.
But imho it is a fool’s errand (that most of us get lost in for a while lol) to prioritise anything much based on a spouse who has decided to lie, devalue and leave. If only bc they are not a very reliable or objective source of information  And bc they are not much of a prize to ‘win’ and we have no control at all over what they think or feel about us.

But as Reinventing and xyzcf said, when in doubt, prioritise the effects of trauma and how you are adapting to the reality of your new landscape. Claw your way to steadier ground before you assess the importance of ‘fixing’ other issues bc it is easier to see things more clearly out of the trauma storm. Jmo.

[forthetrees]

Yes to healing as the number one priority. We´ll never know how many serious negative health consequences were avoided by doing that. There is ample anecdotal evidence of how many of us did end up with cancer, heart issues and autoimmune diseases. Don´t underestimate that power of the stress of all of this. It has the power to affect many genes that may trigger disease that otherwise would not ensue. That is why the self-care is so important.

[Nas]

I guess I’m failing to see how making healing the priority and understanding and addressing one’s anxious attachment style are mutually exclusive. Therapy is immensely helpful after BD, and a therapist would surely address attachment style, since it affects our relationship to others.

I’m not of the belief that my cancer diagnosis has anything to do with being an lbs. My former husband did a lot of reprehensible things, but I would have cancer even if I were married to Keanu Reeves. Jmho

[Imgood]

Nas stated above:  Therapy is immensely helpful after BD, and a therapist would surely address attachment style, since it affects our relationship to others.

Shortly after BD, I sent information to my H on each of the different attachment types (personally believing my H is a fearful-avoidant) but not stating my opinion to him. He got back to me and said that he thinks he’s a fearful-avoidant…..ding, ding, ding we have a winner!!!  During this period, he was seeing a therapist and not once did my H mention anything about the therapist determining his attachment style. My H was dismissive about the whole idea of attachment style and how it influences how a person will “show up” within a relationship. I’m curious about other people’s experiences with therapists and whether it is pretty standard for a therapist to determine your attachment style??? Please weigh in on this if you have experience in this area. I’m quite curious because I would think that’s something they would do, as well. Do you think that they may determine the attachment style but not tell the client for some reason?
I do not know what to make of the therapist my husband saw for a total of 11 visits. H told me that the therapist told him that he is very self aware and that it generally takes her clients “years” to get to where he is.  (Eye roll here) My H is SO self-centered and self-absorbed right now.
Of course, this is the same therapist that told him to get physical with our son, if our son was intoxicated and were to get “in my husband’s face”.    What kind of therapist recommends physicality to her patient.? Honestly, between my H and his so called “therapist” I feel like I’m in the twilight zone.

[Songanddance]

I do not know what to make of the therapist my husband saw for a total of 11 visits.

Don't blame the therapist - they can only advise based on what the MLCer tells them and in the first few years they will generally talk BS to the therapist.

I am surprised though and disappointed that she would also discuss your H with you.  That is not professional behaviour unless your H gave her permission.

Therapists are only useful for LBSers during the crisis and for MLCers once they are truly out of the tunnel and prepared to be accountable for their behaviour and genuinely want help.

[barbiedoll]

I guess I’m failing to see how making healing the priority and understanding and addressing one’s anxious attachment style are mutually exclusive. Therapy is immensely helpful after BD, and a therapist would surely address attachment style, since it affects our relationship to others.

.

I agree with this. Part of healing for me ( a very large part) has been healing/changing the reactivity brought on by my attachment style.  Attachment style is linked with healing the inner child as that is where the attachment style was formed....as a result of childhood trauma that is unresolved or unprocessed. My healing work is primarily inner child work and attachment "disorder".

During this period, he was seeing a therapist and not once did my H mention anything about the therapist determining his attachment style.

.

Not all therapists support the attachment theory.  In my years of therapy with my spouse , it was me that brought it up as I was learning about it in my own individual counselling.  I believe that the attachment theory is the crux of all that ails us and the starting point to do some personal healing work . I am not surprised that an H would be dismissive of the attachment theory...especially if he is avoidant. When I first understood attachment wounds etc ...it was like the sun came out . I could finally see what I needed to work on and what was " wrong"  ( for lack of a better word). My H did not have the same epiphany.

My husband certainly compartmentalizes and I would say he was avoidant the whole time but that was exacerbated by MLC...

It is my opinion that having been avoidant ( and all that goes with that) is a factor in creating MLC.  Its like ignoring parts of yourself , avoiding your own needs, wants, opinions, being a people pleaser, stacking up all kinds of grudges and resentments that were never addressed until the perfect storm is created .  That was/is the case with me H and I have indeed read that avoidants have more issues at midlife and more likely to cheat. And here we are .

Yes sexually and physically abused children compartmentalize to survive.

.

Without question. My therapist has said " and what a brilliant thing for a child to do that is living in survival mode ". It saved their life.  But it is firmly entrenched now as an adult and causes untold difficulties.  The good, the bad and the ugly .

I am surprised though and disappointed that she would also discuss your H with you.  That is not professional behaviour unless your H gave her permission.

.

I am very confused by this. Perhaps I am missing something ...were they seeing the same therapist?  I have talked to my therapist endlessly about my H ...afterall , I am in therapy as a result of his actions and MLC behaviours and choices.  Has my H given my therapist permission that I can talk about him??  I think NOT.  I must have missed this somewhere in this thread ... please clarify .

[Treasur]

I do not know what to make of the therapist my husband saw for a total of 11 visits.

Don't blame the therapist - they can only advise based on what the MLCer tells them and in the first few years they will generally talk BS to the therapist.

I am surprised though and disappointed that she would also discuss your H with you.  That is not professional behaviour unless your H gave her permission.

Therapists are only useful for LBSers during the crisis and for MLCers once they are truly out of the tunnel and prepared to be accountable for their behaviour and genuinely want help.

did imgood say that? I missed it if so. Must admit I assumed that it was more a case of the MLCer saying ‘well, my therapist said....’. Which of course we all learn is not a very reliable source of info 

[Imgood]

SD, BD & Treasur, let me clarify. From July 2020 through December 2020, H was speaking with his own IC. I have never met or spoken with his IC. I know H only had 11 visits DUE to seeing the charges on the credit card statement. We were recently separated during this time frame.
Treasur you are correct. It was a case of H saying to me: “my counselor says I’m self aware and that it takes years for her clients to get to where I am”. I just don’t get it. How does the counselor not see what the hay is going on here???
I feel his counselor over-stepped her bounds. Early on, I wanted to go on an Intensive Weekend Workshop, where we would have been assigned two counselors to work with us individually and together, one on one for three days. They claimed working intensively like that was the equivalent of a year of weekly counseling sessions, which greatly appealed to me because I wanted to make headway. Anyways, the cost was like $3500. H was onboard UNTIL he told his IC about it and she told him “You don’t need to spend that kind of money. You can do something much less expensive like a weekend retreat.” That rubbed me the wrong way. I felt that was unprofessional. Does she “know” how much money we do or don’t have.? Does she “know” what we can or can’t afford? No, she doesn’t.
I understand not everyone could afford to spend that but we could. How “much” money we choose to spend on helping our relationship, is NONE of her business. I remember at the time, thinking to myself, “Oh, she thinks this is a lot, well if we end up divorcing it will cost a WHOLE lot more than $3500.” Hello, looks like that’s the direction we’re headed.
The other unprofessional thing in my opinion that she did, was to instruct my husband to be physical with our young adult son if our son is intoxicated and “gets in my husband’s face”. H told me this.
Per my H, sometime in November 2020, she said to him: “Am I helping you save your marriage or get a divorce?” What was the rush with a decision needing to be made one way or the other??? Isn’t she there to listen.

[Imgood]

I don’t mean to hi-jack LeftandBroken’s thread. I do apologize!

[MomOfSteel]

No need to apologize.  Attachment theory isn’t something my therapist has brought up, more that I have found through my own trying to make sense of the tornado that is my life right now.  I deal with things by researching and trying to make sense of them.  It might be the scientist in me. 

I could see my Hs therapist saying he was self aware as he is articulate but from what little I know, his therapist seems to be justifying his behaviors.  I wonder if his therapist recognizes that he is actually in a mental health crisis. 

I just went down a rabbit hole for two days reading the entirety of shock sis ‘s threads.  Can I just say Wow!  It helps me realize it really is him that is off.  It helps me understand his anger and hatred towards me.  In someways it’s depressing to think what he will have to go through and *maybe* come out the other side if he really can take responsibility for what he has done.  I can see him continuing to run for a very long time.  Even if he does, it will likely be long after his divorce is final.  I wish he would just slow down on the whole divorce thing.  It makes sense though if he truly does believe I am the cause of all his unhappiness why he would want to just get it over with.   

I think I really do need to heal my codependency.  I feel like it is at the root of my own issues and developed over the course of our marriage.  The funny thing is I never think of my H as a people pleaser.  He stuffs down his emotions because he doesn’t want to deal or talk about them. 

Those that have dealt with their own codependency, what has been helpful?  My therapist says it comes naturally with time but honestly that isn’t satisfactory to me.  Surely there are things I can do other than just reading books on it to help break it sooner. 

I have been feeling extra anxious the last few days.  It’s amazing how even neutral texts or communication can set me off.  I suppose this is a trauma response? 

[KellBell]

I think time is the hardest part. Waiting and never knowing what the end result be until it happens...or doesn't. That's really the hardest part I've had to come to terms with. But I think the divorce is a blessing in some ways. Total separation. A chance to really just cut ties and let them deal and heal. And us too. Regardless the old marriage wasn't working for whatever reason. So it's over anyway. And the person they are now- is not the version of the person you married and loved. At some point you just have to have faith that they will heal and come back to us. But if they don't - their loss. They are the messed up ones who are being forced to grow in ways they've been putting off for a long time. And at some point we hope they get their crap together and wake up. But again it takes TIME. So as another LBS that is soon to be divorced. I can honestly say- I'm not sure I would survive his MLC without going this route. I don't want to be with him when he's like this. And according to the MLC 'time line' he's going to get even worse. It's just something that 1) I don't want to see and 2) I don't want to be subjected to. I think the less I'm involved, the less I'll have to forgive and work through. I mean I already feel like I have a ton to process- I don't need two more years (or more) of rude comments, poor treatment and anger to try and process on top of that.

We have a tie to our spouse through our kids whether we are married or not. And those ties will hopefully keep our paths crossing in the future. And if that happens, then there is always a chance. But really take time to focus on you. What do you want? Any hobbies you've wanted to try? Take a class in something? Learn a new language? Finding something to occupy your time besides just the kids is crucial and will help you process at your own speed. A little here and little there. I notice I keep busy during the day, but nights, when everyone is asleep I start down rabbit holes of depression and MLC research. Definitely not a sprint- his MLC or our healing.

[MomOfSteel]

Isn’t this the truth?

And the person they are now- is not the version of the person you married and loved. At some point you just have to have faith that they will heal and come back to us. But if they don't - their loss. They are the messed up ones who are being forced to grow in ways they've been putting off for a long time. And at some point we hope they get their crap together and wake up. But again it takes TIME.

I think reading through some of the threads has shown me this.  I didn’t file, he did after basically trying to force me into it by being awful.  I think he wanted to be able to blame it on me.  In some ways having him out of the house has been better.  I’m not on constant alert as to when he will show up at home and how awful he will be. 

When you say the MLC is going to get worse, what do you mean?  I’m pretty sure mine is fully in the fog now and who knows when or if he will return.  I will probably regret asking, but how much worse can it get? 

My kids sometimes talk about what their dad is doing.  My oldest basically wants to know why I would ever want him back at this point.  Sometimes I ask myself that same question.  I know I don’t love whatever creature is inhabiting him at this point. 

I’ve got to rediscover myself at this point.  After the divorce I may go back to school for a while to refresh my degree.  I also want to learn how to invest as I should get a decent maintenance payment out of this and I want to make sure my future is secure.  I want to learn piano and make exercise a habit.  At some point, I hope I can help others going through similar experiences. 

[UrsaMajor]

I think reading through some of the threads has shown me this.  I didn’t file, he did after basically trying to force me into it by being awful.  I think he wanted to be able to blame it on me. 

Exactly correct - Then the Mid-Lifer is blameless and can have a pity party and show how HORRIBLE the second cousin of Beelzebub (the LBS) really is - THEY left me!! (Never mind that I - the MLC'er - have been a total a$$hat for the last <x> weeks/months/years.....)

MLC and accountability go together like Screen Door and Submarine

When you say the MLC is going to get worse, what do you mean?  I’m pretty sure mine is fully in the fog now and who knows when or if he will return.  I will probably regret asking, but how much worse can it get?

You do NOT want to know.... with my xW1, just when I thought that she could not possibly go further to the Dark Side, she'd surprise me with some new outrageous Monster episode.... Depending on the Mid-Lifer, it can range anywhere from mild-mannered passivity to raging Godzilla on Steroids with Rabies
 

My kids sometimes talk about what their dad is doing.  My oldest basically wants to know why I would ever want him back at this point.  Sometimes I ask myself that same question.  I know I don’t love whatever creature is inhabiting him at this point. 

This IS the point... The person formerly known as "Spouse" has left the building and now, what's left?

The alien Body Snatcher that may look like, walk like, and sound like the person you married but inside?

[MomOfSteel]

I think it’s interesting that even though they are running so hard they still want to share their news.  H just found out he received an accreditation that he previously had not been awarded which I believe is one of the events precipitating his MLC.  First thing he does is share with me.  It’s weird that he still wants to tell me and have me validate him at this point.  Everyday it’s some new weird behavior.  Is it happy and sharing or an angry monster?  There is no knowing who will show up. 

[readytofixmyselffirst]

Hello,

I have been just crazy busy with my new position, but I have been reading your post and sadly several other new members stories as well. While I know you are still very raw in the process and still recovering from the wounds of bomb drop this struck me as your true sign of healing:

I’ve got to rediscover myself at this point.  After the divorce I may go back to school for a while to refresh my degree.  I also want to learn how to invest as I should get a decent maintenance payment out of this and I want to make sure my future is secure.  I want to learn piano and make exercise a habit.  At some point, I hope I can help others going through similar experiences.

Those are words of a survivor-not a victim. You have children and whether you like it or not, the only adult in the room. Right now, you are modeling to your children how to respond to a terrible situation that is beyond your control. His MLC-not yours. I often post that Bomb drop starts two journeys- the MLCer's  to a reunification and newfound identity and the LBS's recovery from all of the trauma incurred by the MLCer.  You need to focus on you and part of your posts should be on how you are living in the present. Did you you take time to find a moment of bliss? Did you try something new? How did you engage the children today? You are now a single parent and that brings forth many new challenges as well as many rewards.

Your words and plans are the first steps to getting back up and getting back into the living world.

And yes, before you know it, you will be inspiring and helping others on the forum as well, but right now, just be good to yourself,

((((Ready))))

[MomOfSteel]

I think the healing feels more like one step forward and two steps back.  It was a rough evening here tonight knowing H is trying to get information out of my kids and then blaming me for the oldest not liking him and telling him that I’ve been telling him false information.  I haven’t said anything false.  I regret he knows about the affair but he wouldn’t if H wasn’t having one.  It’s somehow my fault though that his kid’s opinion of him has changed.  He’s now telling them maybe they should stay with him longer and not go to church anymore.  I HATE this.  My kids are stuck in the middle. 

[FaithWalker]

How old are your kids LaB?

Mine were 10, 13 and 15 at BD.  It was immensely difficult for them to see what was once the family man and spiritual leader do an abrupt about face and change into quite the opposite, including sharing a bed with someone who was not his wife in the same house where they were visiting.

I've spent a lot of time on my knees in prayer battle for all the collateral damage that has come from this MLC and resulting divorce.

Even when the kids haven't always listened to me or gone to Church, God has strategically placed people in their lives to continue to whisper to them the good news of the gospel.  I've gotten to hear once  in a while about some great discussions that various friends, family and acquaintances have had with my kids and it filled me with hope that where I cannot always get through to them, there is a village of people that God has at his disposal, planting seeds, watering, weeding, etc.

Also be encouraged that you remaining firm and strong in your faith will set an example for them.  Early on in my journey, I attended a marriage seminar without my MLCer and shared a table with a gal whose husband was running late.  She didn't want us to think she was attending the seminar alone, but then felt really bad when I shared that I was indeed attending it alone.  Anyway, it opened up a chance for me to be vulnerable and share my story and she shared that her F was a MLCer and how strong of an example her M was to her and what a great relationship they have to this day because of her mom's faith, despite all that was against her. 

Have hope that your kiddos will get through this.  I was encouraged by the scripture "Train up a child in the way they should go and when they are old they will not depart from it."  In some ways, when I hit BD at age 37, I still felt like a child, and it helped me to turn in more to the Lord.  So even when my kiddos (now 16, 19 and 21) don't always seem like they are on the right path, or aren't living the gospel like I would like to see them do, I know that God is continually doing a work in them and that it will come to fruition.

[xyzcf]

What you wrote Faith really resonated with me. Thank you.

I have always felt that he left, he stopped loving and he betrayed me....that does not mean that I need to do the same. I did not stop loving him.

It is also important to me that my daughter understand that marriage is entered into to remain with one another. Some here feel differently and think that we are being a doormat and not setting a good example to our children by showing unconditional love to their parent who left the family and indeed in many ways left their children.

My daughter knows the strength of her mother and the lesson I wish her to learn is "love one another as I have loved you."

So I allow contact with him, I allow family times together and he is welcomed to be with us if he wishes to be.

I do protect myself in several ways. I "disagree" with God that this is good for my family and I wish I understood why this happened to us...but I will trust in God's plans for us.

I love the image of the Good Shepherd who leaves the 99 sheep to go after the one lost sheep. I know that our loved ones  are also loved by God, and I leave my husband in God's care.

It is what feels right for me. I have argued with myself several times, but I come back to the same conclusion. This is how I choose to treat him.

[MomOfSteel]

My kids are still pretty small.  The youngest is not even in school yet.  Had an interesting experience where H was looking for sympathy for his strained relationships because of what he has done to me.  Also apparently splitting into two households is financially more challenging than he anticipated.  Meaning he didn’t fully think about what he was doing and now the consequences are starting he doesn’t like it.  Maybe it will be harder to be this great catch if he can’t keep up lavish spending on the AP.  He again tried to tell me how bad our faith is.  Guess once I can’t be blamed for absolutely everything God is next. 

Luckily today was not a monster day.  There seems to be a disconnect that what is best for me and the kids is not necessary what is best for him.  It feels like he is starting to panic.  It seems like the loss of control was not anticipated and is not comfortable. 

What happened as consequences came during this process?  I’m sure there will be more nastiness.  Did it make anyone’s MLCer less foggy?  If I wasn’t dealing with this personally, the irrationality and psychology behind MLC is actually fascinating.  It’s so mind blowing how people can destroy their lives being absolutely convinced they are doing what will make them happy and it’s not even real.  The lack of planning and flying by the seat of their pants is strange to me as well. 

I used to think that my H took personal accountability.  It’s like the locus of control for himself has been completely removed from him.  He’s also starting into self pity as things aren’t lining up with his expectations.  Is this normal?   

[forthetrees]

Sounds like an MLCer. My ex used to describe people as having an axis and if you´re doing well you spin nicely but if not, your spin begins to wobble. For MLCers, I see it as a wobble that increases to the point of losing the spin altogether- like the movie of that bridge that starts to resonate and eventually the vibrational waves lead to the disintegration of the bridge. Yes, when you are able to take the 100 foot view it is quite a curious event, but for the LBS you tend to get sucked right back into the real trauma of it all. My ex was a planner and financially savvy until MLC and then he went off the financial rails and made a lot of decisions that would have never been considered before.

To protect your future finances, be sure to talk with an attorney who knows the pitfalls of not thinking about future expenses for the children- extra-curriculars, healthcare, dental care- braces, insurance, drivers ed, car insurance, school trips, graduation trip, music lessons, sports equipment, camp, riding lessons, art lessons, tutoring, college tours, concerts, movies, phones, phone plans, clothing, haircuts, college, summer school, travel to and from college, gas money, travel between your households, and I´m sure there is much more. Point being as he clues in to how much his single guy life will be curtailed by paying alimony and child support, he will be less willing to "add" on to his share later on. Get it in writing now so you don´t have to deal with him later over it. The more that gets put into writing now, the less leverage he has over you later and the less often you have to engage in an adversarial way or even a persuasive way. Renegotiation will suck the emotional energy from you and you want to be on the healing path.

I can´t think of any of them who have gotten more generous as time went on.

Might even be worth getting yourself a special hat to put on when you need to put on your business hat and leave emotion out of it for the sake of protecting yourself and your kids. What would an LBS business hat look like:)?

[MomOfSteel]

That is a great list of things to think about and ask for.  I would hope we can make it clear enough that I won’t have to keep going back.  With younger kids I wouldn’t think of any of it.  He is already worried about not being as comfortable as he thinks he should be. 

Also I just had flashbacks to ODEs in college with the bridge collapse analogy.  It’s pretty spot on as is an out of balance top.  I guess he didn’t realize what divorce means financially.  My H has always been meticulous as well so the lack of forethought is uh interesting to say the least. 

[KellBell]

My Xh said he was ready to move to CO and didn't have place to stay. Thought he could just go buy a house. Needless to say the market is a bit more in CO than where we live and he had a huge reality check. Then at work- there were some staffing changes and he's stuck working the front counter and upset he can't do sales like he wanted. Hard to hire and it's been 7 months of 'poor me this isn't what I planned.' Not sure why he was expecting it to be easy to just start over and leave behind all responsibilities. MLC is so crazy. Almost makes you wonder how they function day to day without really f-ing up.

[MomOfSteel]

I do wonder how they function day to day as well.  We certainly have a pity party going on over here.  Earlier it was like that song about how no one likes me, everybody hates me guess I’ll go eat worms when we talked. 

It’s no forethought, it’s drastic stupid choices, it’s blowing up everything around you and not having it play out like you think in your head.  Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. 

I feel like I’m constantly dealing with someone who is a walking contradiction.  The good news is that after communicating only through text for a month I survived talking for an hour and a half today while remaining calm and in control.  I’m really proud of myself for not being bated.  Truthfully I think it scared him a little I was calm.

[UrsaMajor]

I do wonder how they function day to day as well.  We certainly have a pity party going on over here.  Earlier it was like that song about how no one likes me, everybody hates me guess I’ll go eat worms when we talked. 

Since now I have that tune stuck in my head , you get a GIF of dancing worms...

It’s no forethought, it’s drastic stupid choices, it’s blowing up everything around you and not having it play out like you think in your head.  Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. 

I feel like I’m constantly dealing with someone who is a walking contradiction.  The good news is that after communicating only through text for a month I survived talking for an hour and a half today while remaining calm and in control.  I’m really proud of myself for not being bated.  Truthfully I think it scared him a little I was calm.

I think that, for some Mid-Lifers, this really IS a factor and gets to them - when the LBS no longer reacts and instead responds... For some (at least in my case with xW1) that are high-energy, being calm brings out more Monster or whatever else they use to provoke a reaction so they can further justify their deeds/decisions to themselves. For the low-energy types (xW2), being calm shoves them further into their depression/pity party because we (the LBS) no longer reacts to rescue them from their misery like we used to...

[Treasur]

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. 

Well, that’s a new classic LBS line. Quite so 

[MomOfSteel]

UM the dancing worms are going to haunt me.  Just had visit w/MIL.  It’s interesting to hear her perspective.  She saw him and said she has never seen him look so unhappy in his life.  Also, she’s never witnessed him having such a pity party for himself.  The  consequences have started but there is still zero accountability.  It’s even extending to work.  He’s basically just everyone’s victim.  He’s certainly a high energy replayer.  I wonder how long he can go until he burns out.

 Also, I’m super glad our finances are separate.  Looks like he’s having a hard time paying his bills.  I’m sure that’s my fault too 
Thank goodness for natural consequences. 

[MomOfSteel]

Today I wet for a walk with a friend and was able to just talk through things.  I think I am starting to get to the point where I can see I will be okay.  It isn’t the life or path I would ever choose for myself but I am strong enough and I will be fine.  I think this is a huge realization and even though I am sure I won’t feel it all the time and will backslide, today I can see I’m going to come through this, likely better than he will.  It’s funny how he thought he was just leaving me and thought nothing of the consequences.  In reality he’s lost just about everyone and thing he used to care about.  The only one I’ve lost is him and have actually gained many friends who are supporting me through this.  I’m also getting a chance to reevaluate myself and work on me in a way I wouldn’t if things were just chugging along.  While it’s not pleasant, I am convinced I can come out a better person with more compassion, kindness and empathy. 

[KellBell]

today I can see I’m going to come through this, likely better than he will.  It’s funny how he thought he was just leaving me and thought nothing of the consequences.  In reality he’s lost just about everyone and thing he used to care about.  The only one I’ve lost is him and have actually gained many friends who are supporting me through this.  I’m also getting a chance to reevaluate myself and work on me in a way I wouldn’t if things were just chugging along.  While it’s not pleasant, I am convinced I can come out a better person with more compassion, kindness and empathy.

I had this realization a few months ago. And once you've had it- it just builds. It's amazing. There will be hard days, but the backslides get more shallow. My H did not think through things very well either. And had a month of deer in the headlights early on. He is deeply entrenched in the fog now. Complete denial of consequences, blame everyone, poor poor me and no accountability. He's become just indifferent to me. I think these frustrations kind of catapult them fully into the fog. Like at first they feel Oh crap, why isn't this working? Which ultimately leads to some self doubt. But MLCers can have none of that, so he'll turn on you and everyone else. Blame blame blame. It's hard to watch. And just sad for everyone.

With MLC...your H has to go deeper before seeing the light. And we just have to have faith that they will find themselves...the version we fell in love with. Keep focusing on yourself. Seeing your worth and accepting all the help and love your circle is providing you. It was really hard for me to accept help- just wanted to be alone. But once I allowed myself to accept help...that's when I noticed the most growth and healing. It helps free up time for us to process and vent and heal. I told my mom the other night- the best thing to come out of this divorce is realizing just how big my 'family' really is. I have an army of supporters willing to talk, listen, help with kids, help with groceries... anything and everything. And sometimes just feeling that valued is help enough.

proud of you...and you will most definitely come out better!

[MomOfSteel]

Kelly, yes!  I have had to learn to accept help.  Still stink at asking for it but there are so many people who have reached out to help.  At first I didn’t tel anyone hoping we would make it through and no one would need to know.  It was holding me back and making it so I was isolated, hurt, and alone.  Once it was no longer hidden and a secret, he lost control and I didn’t have to feel so alone.  It also meant he started to have consequences that he could no longer predict or control.  He is obviously rolling around in his pig pen of self pity with a whoa is me attitude it’s all my horrible wife’s fault.  Eventually I hope he can look in the mirror and realize that it isn’t my fault, it’s his. 

[Pacman]

And we just have to have faith that they will find themselves...the version we fell in love with.

I copied the whole quote onto my story and responded in depth.
But this part intrigued me.
The version we fell in love with is dead. To us and themselves.
Why would we accept the same person back?
If they went there once and haven't changed then surely they will regress again.
They need to find a new person in themselves or it is going to be "groundhod day". They will not have learnt anything and continue the behaviours and actions that led them to this point.

[KellBell]

Pac- I think there are core parts of people that make up who they are. My H loved his family, cherished me, was happy and engaged in our lives...those parts are gone right now. He feels our family, our life and me are what's making him unhappy. I noticed depression set in fall of 2019 but things were tenuous at work for him and he works in a family business and it was super stressful and he was lost. So I just thought this was something he would work through. Our older Ds and I approached him few times- worried about the obvious depression. I never thought it would lead to this. He never pulled away from me. We dated, talked, snuck away into the laundry room to make out, went to events and were intimate right up until the week he left. But he did develop a quick fuse with our kids and started pulling away. So I guess what I was saying is that I hope he finds his way back to remembering happiness; his kids, his family and a wife that loves and supports him. I do agree that he needs to discover his worth and figure out why he's so insecure and so desperately wants his dad and brother's respect. So FOO issues.

[MomOfSteel]

I think parts of them hopefully can come back but PAC I think you are right that without growth we shouldn’t want them back as is.  Right now, my H is a complete )&@“”.  He needs to hit bottom and honestly suffer in order for him to learn to be a better person.  Who knows if he will ever hit that point.  If not, he will probably be a horrible person for the rest of his life.  I hope even if we never make it back together he at least pulls his head out for the sake of our kids. 

I am following your posts as well and since you need a new thread will respond somewhat on here.  I think maybe I should clarify the new friends comment.  I am part of a church community that I had made a few friends, but hadn’t really opened up to very many.  As people have found out and are offering support I have chose to let them and open up.  My H no longer attends, I guess doing something that is in direct conflict with your faith causes you to have to justify your actions by turning your back on your faith and convincing yourself it isn’t true.  I guess my point is, I’m making friends, but I’m not going out of my way to be social if that makes sense.  I am simply accepting the help and friendships that are coming to me.  Right now, I’m not capable of putting much effort out because I’m still so wounded. 

Like Kelly, I’m all of a sudden realizing how big my “family” really is.  It’s very comforting. 

[MomOfSteel]

I feel like I’m completely out of order experiencing the stages of grief.  I’ve been really depressed and have only sporadically felt anger.  In the last couple days I feel myself seething with it.  It’s an uncomfortable feeling.  I know it’s necessary but yikes!  How do you all appropriately process these feelings without repressing them but without becoming overly reactive?  If I have to interact with he who must not be named in any way that I need to keep myself together I’m worried I will fail miserably. 

[KellBell]

Ughh... I hate it. It's a rollercoaster of emotions. Some days while driving in my car by myself, I'll just shake my head and say "I hate him. What an a$$!" out loud. Calm and very matter of fact. I don't hate him, but I feel like saying something like that to no one is better than ranting for an hour about what a jerk he was and all the bad things he's done. But early on my therapist said that feelings and emotions are better out than in. So I also journaled...ALOT. I have a locked word document on my laptop. Anytime I was seething in anger - I would just start writing. All my feelings no matter how jumbled. I'm like 32 pages in or something. I journal less now. And I don't think I will ever go back and read them. But it does feel better to express what you are feeling and sometimes what your feeling can't be shared with anyone else. So just type it or write it down. I also noticed once I wrote out my anger- I would inevitably follow it up with some sort of little introspective tidbit. Something I noticed about myself or didn't see before. Or maybe a different perspective.  It just flowed naturally. Like once the anger was expelled- it allowed a little learning and growth to seep out too.

But also- talk to your therapist about anger. Mine told me when overloaded with emotional hurt, we shut down. A defense mechanism of sorts. So in an effort to preserve strength and sanity- complex emotions like disappointment, betrayal, stress, anxiety, pain...all of those default to anger. Anger is easier to expel and has a quick shelf life. Lash out, yell, throw something- done or at least defused for the moment. Gives you a little bit of respite before the emotions bubble back up we either deal with them or blow up in anger again. Anyway- not saying you are developing anger issues...just that anger is an inevitable stage and I always hate feeling that way too.

[xyzcf]

I feel like I’m completely out of order experiencing the stages of grief.  I’ve been really depressed and have only sporadically felt anger.  In the last couple days I feel myself seething with it.

When I read your post, I thought about our body's response to "danger"...fight/flight/freeze is an unconscious process that was developed to help us respond in dangerous situations. It is not supposed to be triggered for long periods of time, but trauma can cause this to stay on and create lots of feelings for us that make it difficult to breath or function well.

This is an article that explains it a bit:
https://www.healthline.com/health/mental-health/fight-flight-freeze#overactive-response

Being "angry" is a completely rational feeling. And it is good to recognize it and to explore what it means. To counteract the fight/flight/freeze response from staying turned on, different techniques are useful to bring yourself back to a place of calm and balance. The techniques require lots of practice but are certainly worth it.

However, that is not to say that anything you feel right now is "wrong" or unnecessary. Especially since it is not very long since your world was turned upside down.

Like Kelly, I wrote "furiously"...I think I filled 13 notebooks with my writing. I used to think that I needed these journals in case I had to "prove" anything that he had done..but over time, I did not want anyone to ever read what I had written, especially my daughter...and then, many years after (and a therapist that helped me immensely) I shredded all of them. Like Kelly stated, I never went back and read any of it. But somehow writing allowed me to let some of it out.

Your faith life will help you. I have become closer to God throughout this, deeper and also sometimes angry at God as well. But prayer has helped immensely...oh just thought of another image, something I recently stumbled across, a song called "Calms the Soul"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=5E5gPaAKtok

I found faith based music very helpful, especially when I was driving...sometimes the tears were so great, I would think, I need windshield wipers for my eyes.

I am glad that you share with us how you are feeling. You will find the things that help you. Each of us need different things to bring us peace once more.

[Thunder]

I also kept a notebook the first...maybe year and a half after bomb drop, back in 2013/2014.

A few years ago I was cleaning out a closet and saw that notebook in a drawer and started to read it.

I was so overwhelmed with sadness for the woman who wrote in that notebook every day.  I felt the sadness, the fear, the frustration and the love in those words.

I know I wrote those entries, but it was like someone else did.
It was not longer me.  I had changed and grown so much since that time.

I found it did me good to see how far I had come.  I, and my life, are so difference now.

After reading all of it I tossed it because I never want any of my kids to ever read how very sad I was at the time.

I also wrote 2 letters to my H, but never sent them.  Thank God!
I know had I sent them, maybe with the intention of waking him up...I don't know, it would have only made the situation much worse.

Time really is our friend, even if it doesn't look like it right now.
You will get through this, just give it time and be gentle with yourself.

[Pacman]

OOPs, just noted I misquoted in my last post. Sorry L&B, its was Kelly's post that I referred to.
And yes there are and always will be some good parts of them that seem to have been pushed aside, hopefully for the time being.
It's the alien actions that no one saw coming and the underlying reasons for those that need to be dealt with.

I think parts of them hopefully can come back but PAC I think you are right that without growth we shouldn’t want them back as is.  Right now, my H is a complete )&@“”. He needs to hit bottom and honestly suffer in order for him to learn to be a better person.  Who knows if he will ever hit that point.  If not, he will probably be a horrible person for the rest of his life.  I hope even if we never make it back together he at least pulls his head out for the sake of our kids. 

This part in bold has me intrigued.
I may be misreading what you said and what you meant by it, if so I apologise.
Yes they do need to hit rock bottom (and unfortunately some never will) and I did want her to "suffer" but was that because I was "suffering"? IE misery wants company?
Was it through a need for vengeance, out of anger, out of spite, because of hurt, justice?
None of which would allow me to grow and be a better person.

In hindsight I believe she (and your H) are "suffering" but as they don't want to accept any of the damage caused they run and hide.
Take my thoughts with a grain of salt as I am an extreme newbie here and in the MLC trip (as I can't stand that other word......she has used it too many times to justify her actions)

[MomOfSteel]

The thing is, I just can’t figure out what on earth was so awful for him.  I wish I knew what his underlying issues were.  I actually picked up a folder and it happened to have a work wellness server he had filled out over 5 years ago.  It’s obvious he has poor self esteem which seems weird as he is highly successful.  I guess maybe it was always trying to prove himself and never feeling like he measured up could have driven him.  I look at him as a failure in life though right now.  He may have a successful career but he’s failed in every way that really matters.  I wish I could understand why people toss their children aside. 

I try to journal to get out my feelings but I suck at it.  I write a few things and get bored.  I did write I hate him about a million times today though.  I’ve also screamed at the top of my lungs in my car.  Sigh.  I still feel really angry.  I’m angry for the casualness that he can toss us aside with.  That he is unrepentant and damaging our kids.  I’m angry and hurt.  I want him to feel the pain he so easily has inflicted.  I’m angry he gets to go and act like he doesn’t have a family and go out with the alienator and only pretend to be a dad when it’s convenient for him.  I’m angry that it’s all about him and it’s immature.  I’m angry that MLC surely is some sort of mental disorder so how much is he actually accountable for?  I’m angry that he seems to face very few consequences.  I’m also angry about my lawyer bill.  I’m angry about the guilt trips he tried to give me about how he can’t afford things.  I don’t care.  He can rot.  I’m angry I can’t just turn off my feelings of hurt and betrayal and love for him. 

[KellBell]

I did write I hate him about a million times today though.  I’ve also screamed at the top of my lungs in my car.  Sigh.  I still feel really angry.  I’m angry for the casualness that he can toss us aside with.  That he is unrepentant and damaging our kids.  I’m angry and hurt.  I want him to feel the pain he so easily has inflicted.  I’m angry he gets to go and act like he doesn’t have a family and go out with the alienator and only pretend to be a dad when it’s convenient for him.  I’m angry that it’s all about him and it’s immature.  I’m angry that MLC surely is some sort of mental disorder so how much is he actually accountable for?  I’m angry that he seems to face very few consequences.  I’m also angry about my lawyer bill.  I’m angry about the guilt trips he tried to give me about how he can’t afford things.  I don’t care.  He can rot.  I’m angry I can’t just turn off my feelings of hurt and betrayal and love for him.

This ^^^^^^^^


I've said the same thing a million times. It's kept me up some nights and it still invades my thoughts some days. The lack of emotion and guilt, no remorse, empathy or understanding....it's just mind boggling. Literally everyone of our friends, my friends, anyone that knew us is like "why would he just walk away from your life? He had it all? And it still wasn't enough? WTH?" And all I can do is shrug because I don't get it either. But really what hurts is his indifference and seemingly lack of feelings. That's just the worst. Because there's no other way to see it other than devaluing us (the spouse), our kids and our family/life.

As for journaling- just write what you are thinking. I type because it's faster and my thoughts usually fly around 100 miles a minute. Most of the times it's just random sentences or a short paragraph about something then a new paragraph on new rant. They don't flow or have dates. Just my thoughts. And I literally have three pages of "I hate him"s so I totally get that. Also when I'm in my car alone driving some place (errands, kids, school and work...I'm in the car a lot)- I have fake conversations. Like things I wish I could say to him. Weird I know but no one hears it but me and it's released so I feel like I've said my piece.

[MomOfSteel]

Literally everyone of our friends, my friends, anyone that knew us is like "why would he just walk away from your life? He had it all? And it still wasn't enough? WTH?"

This is my situation as well.  Everyone who knew home before, family, friends, everyone can’t believe it.  He’s lost them all but somehow everyone is just wrong and he is right.  It’s incomprehensible to them and to me. 

[Evermore]

Literally everyone of our friends, my friends, anyone that knew us is like "why would he just walk away from your life? He had it all? And it still wasn't enough? WTH?"

This is my situation as well.  Everyone who knew home before, family, friends, everyone can’t believe it.  He’s lost them all but somehow everyone is just wrong and he is right.  It’s incomprehensible to them and to me.

Yes, this is my situation as well. Over 3 years in and I still can’t believe he tossed our lovely life for what appears to be a very ‘little’ life these days with the alienator. Living in a rental (which I know he would HATE, no autonomy, no shed etc), rarely sees kids (when before they were all that mattered), rarely see his family, doesn’t ever see any of our mutual friends from ‘before’. Apparently (finally) is settled in a good job again at least (he left a great job after BD and had had about 8 jobs since). When I think about (still all too often I’m afraid) it does really feel like I’m living in some bizarro-world dream and I wonder when I’ll wake up. Because surely this can’t really have happened? Three years and I still feel that way.

And oh yes, I’ve had many many ‘conversations’ with him alone in my car. I am one for whom ‘getting it out’ is very necessary.

You’re both doing far better than I was at the same stage. Externally I have carved out a really great life and everything is hunky-dory on the surface. Sadly, internally it all sloshes around in there still. The pain and grief and ‘WTF happened!’. It does get much easier to manage though over time. Maybe one day the sloshing with be more of a damp puddle and I’ll be able to fully mop it away.

[MomOfSteel]

I feel like I go back and forth with how I’m doing.  I also was given some excellent advice early on that I have clinged to and tried to follow.  I’m now sitting here trying to figure out why after hardly any contact until a week ago H is asking my opinion on stuff that really doesn’t matter if I have input on and why he has contacted me more this last week than the whole month prior.  It’s weird and completely thrown me off.  I’m not sure if I should respond or why he’s even asking my opinion. 

[Lostbutnotalone]

Hi and I hate saying welcome but this is great place to turn to.  I am a newbie as well and feel your pain.  I wish I had some sound advice but I can see others have said some great things.  I got the “I love you but I am no in love with you and have not been happy for years as well.  Mine proposed to his OW who is his now 27 year old coworker.  He is 50 and lives with 2 something year olds which include OW. 

I feel for you and no one should ever have to go through this.  Work on yourself and know none of this has to do with YOU.  You are beautiful inside and out and your kids will need a strong momma.  Be careful of what your H says and does.  Mine has been very manipulative to where I thought he was coming around.  He balled one day and I thought he was talking about making his depression and suicide and that he made his mind up.  The next day, he proposed to the OW.  We are not even divorced and the papers had not even been filed! 

Lots of love to you and there are great people on here with wonderful advice.  Hugs!

[forthetrees]

Read up on pursuit and distance in relationships and that may explain his recent requests for your input.

[MomOfSteel]

I’m so sorry for all of us going through this.  Knowing I’m not alone helps.  So thank you to everyone.  I do think the pursuer/distancer dynamic probably does play into it.  I guess that’s why doing a 180 is recommended in these situations.  There is a shift happening, I just wish I could figure out the cause.  We also had a couple of frank conversations where I basically told him I can’t worry about him and his needs anymore.  I’m going to do whatever I need to do for me and the kids.  Part of me thinks he’s panicking over his loss of control.  The other part of me thinks he’s finally receiving the natural consequences of his actions and realizing this isn’t going how he thought (of course everything is my fault still but whatever).  I guess I will continue to keep a wary distance. 

[MomOfSteel]

I feel like my emotions are cycling all over the place.  Anxiety, anger, hurt, feeling like I’ll be fine, confusion, sadness.  It’s like every time I finally have a good day I relapse the next into something awful.  I woke up anxious and sad and hurt.  I’m just so sick of the feelings, especially the anxiety. 

On a positive note, the kids will be back today and it’s supposed to be sunny.  I’m thinking some time outside might be in order.  I get to go to church which will also be good to be around friends and out of the house. 

[Nas]

I just wanted to pop in to say that your feelings are completely normal, especially at this stage. Remember feeling the same. I cycled between overwhelming sadness, anger, a feeling that I would be fine, and around and around and around…
So I don’t have any advice, I just wanted you to know that it’s completely normal and we’ve all been there. Take good care and hang in there. It does get better, I promise.
xx
Nas

[UrsaMajor]

Like Nas said, EVERYTHING you are feeling is normal... And it is normal to cycle between the feelings - sometimes within the space of about 15 minutes... As you move farther along in the detachment timeline, you'll likely find that the cycles get fewer, farther between, and not nearly as "Rollercoastery" (yes, I just made that word up) in terms of extremes.

In terms of trying to understand why he has suddenly upped the contact and is asking for your opinions etc., those who have been around a while know what I am going to say next....

Trying to understand why he is doing ANYTHING, let alone why he is now asking for the opinion of someone who is personally liable and at fault for everything that has gone wrong in his life since the day he was born (the LBS) is like trying to taste green... with your elbow... It is an exercise in futility and a waste of your time and energy... Just chalk it up to "he is in crisis."

[Treasur]

Just as Nas and UM said, all normal. Horrid and exhausting, we know, but normal.
You may find that contact from him, whatever it is about, triggers an emotional cycle in you. Again, normal. Many of us here started to limit interaction not to influence them but bc we just wanted to climb off the rollercoaster of our own emotional reactions for a while. And that’s ok. With time, and a bit of effort lol, you will probably find that you begin to speculate much less about why he says x or contacts you about y.....bc the answer will pretty much always be some version of ‘I have no idea and I am tired of trying to guess’......your expectations adapt and, once you are less invested, it becomes easier to interact if you choose to do so.

When in doubt, as UM says, it is simpler to assume I think that he is doing whatever he’s doing bc in the moment it makes him feel good or avoid feeling bad. Or bc it is easier for him than doing it by himself lol. But the clue is ‘in the moment’...... .....you will increasingly see his words as pretty meaningless other than that. Particularly when they don’t fit the practical reality of his actions. If that changes in a real way, you can trust that you’ll know. And it probably won’t for a long time, and may never, so you might as well do what is best for your wellbeing regardless as long as you can unhook it from ‘meanng’ anything.

So, if you find that superficial chat or being a source of advice or listening to him does not affect your sanity and emotional stability, fine. And just as fine if you decide that the cost of meeting any of his needs or wishes right now is too high for you or that he fired you from the job of giving a s&it, also fine.  You can have as much or as little contact on a given day as you feel like. And change your mind too. Jmo.

[MadLuv]

Nothing new to add as you are getting great advise and input from those who have the best knowledge around. Just want to show my support and agree with don’t try to figure out where they are. Mine showed signs of coming around and then a 180 they cycle as well. I believe if they GrOw Up and are ready to face life and choose you to be in it you will know it then and hopefully you are still open to it. If that is what you want.

[MomOfSteel]

I do think you all are right that the interaction with him starts my own cycle.  Unfortunately because of the kids I can’t just cut off all interaction.  I’ve also been questioning whether standing makes sense for me.  I don’t know if I could ever trust him again.  How do people really rebuild trust after having it so painfully violated?  I am tired of feeling broken and while I heal a little each day, I just want to feel whole and happy now.  I’m not very patient.  Is anyone aware of more threads from former MLCers?  I found a few and find them helpful to looking at their behavior as not really being about me. 

[Treasur]

You might want to read about Dim and Dark in some of RCRs articles, and the concept of Grey Rock online too. I don’t know how old your kids are, but you may find that you have more control over how and how much contact you have than you think. It is not at all uncommon for these folks to be pretty uninvolved parents. And tbh with time, as we heal, it can get easier as our own expectations change and our emotions settle. Other parents here can say more about their experience of this.

I think we all stand for a while bc we are in shock and dn’t know what else to do.
Your choice about standing - or not - is a personal one. We won’t judge you either way.
I think, jmo though, that it really depends on whether you think you can stand without any sense of waiting or putting your life on pause bc it is an uncertain crapshoot and those who have reconciled will tell you that it is far from easy. All of us I think reach a point when we have to think hard about what Standing means to us practically - or indeed what Not Standing would mean practically too - and if we think it is the best course of action for us.

[Schratz66]

I never worried much about if I am standing or not, and that is such a personal choice and I would just say do what feels right for you. In the early days my main focus was on somehow surviving this storm and honestly it took me well over a year before I was through the worst. All your feelings are normal and there is no right or wrong...I used to think if I do this and this and this - he will come back. Then there were all the people saying how he could never be trusted and blablabla.....and I know everyone means well but it is all about you - what brings you peace - what you can live with and there are no rights or wrongs.

Almost 5 years in now and I still love him and I am not fighting it and I may never not love him and that is ok. I never pursued him but always replied to any contact he initiated.

[MomOfSteel]

Thank you for the perspective.  Sometimes I feel like it’s hard when so many people just tell me to forget about him or just move on.  While I certainly need to detach more, it isn’t that simple as just flipping a switch.  Even his own mom says to just forget about him for now.  Even with limited contact, which I would say is fairly dark/dim, he still consumes my thoughts.  The OW and thoughts of how I compare to her consume me.  I’m pretty sure she is messed up in her own right and he is basically her savior but what about some messed up person with is worth destroying all these lives for?  Our youngest is only 4.  They are still small kids.

It’s been a rough week for me and I’ve found myself regressing. When these strong hard feelings just keep coming how do you get past them?  How do you just let go? 

[forthetrees]

Letting go takes a long time. Giving yourself the grace to allow that process to unfold will help you keep your sanity. In the end, if he never comes back, you may tell yourself at least you did all that you could and didn´t throw in the towel prematurely or you may tell yourself that you wasted your time or you will feel that you found the balance between those two. After all, you have to live with your conscience and at this point I would do whatever allows you to feel that you have been a moral human being in the circumstances. Your kids need you and you need to be as whole as possible to be there for them, thus self-care is paramount. You cannot expect to somehow keep your kids from the damage that he is unleashing; they will have emotional wounds from his actions and inactions. You can teach them coping skills and give them emotional tools to deal with the fallout and that gift from you or a therapist for them will allow them to keep putting one foot in front of the other.

[Pacman]

When other people tell you let go etc, it's your choice and ONLY yours.
I'm no expert on detaching as nowhere near it yet, however it takes time as you probably are already aware.
As for comparing yourself to OW ....DON'T. You are better than that as a person and as a mother.
She should be looked at as the dirt on the bottom of your shoe and wiped off on the doormat.

Broken attracts broken and you know your husband is broken.
Rough week I understand fully, but here you are, still going.

Keep it up!!!

[JohnnyBravo]

It’s been a rough week for me and I’ve found myself regressing. When these strong hard feelings just keep coming how do you get past them?  How do you just let go?

I think sometimes you just need to feel the feelings. Trying to suppress them won't do anything. My BD was 8 months ago, and I don't miss my wife any less than I did before. I think this weekend has been hard because valentine's day is coming up (not a big day for us, but still a couples thing), and I know she's imminently moving out of state and I haven't heard a peep from her. And, I know our divorce is around the corner. But, I just try to do what I can to keep  busy.

Hang in there.

[Imgood]

In my experience, I couldn’t just “will myself” to let go. It just happened organically and with time passing. I got to the point where one day, I was ready to let go, let God………as the saying goes. For me, it was like a huge weight was lifted off my shoulders. I felt such relief. Hang in there, you are stronger than you think and give it time. I don’t know if this tip will help you but early on, I would self-talk and remind myself “you were fine before he came into your life, you were happy on your own, you can and will be fine without him”. I’m a big believer of positive self-talk…….the brain believes what you tell it. Tell your brain positive and strong statements. Do your best to stay away from negativity whether that comes from friends, family, co-workers, etc. ((((hugs))))

[MadLuv]

I agree that you cant flip a switch. You know what everyone says is right, but you have to feel all the feels to get to a healthier place. If that is breakdowns of sobbing??? Well, so be it. I embraced every down moment and I am better for it. Is this still a daily process? Yep!! But now when he or the sitch come in my mind I’m no sad or breaking down. It is all tolerable. More than tolerable most the time. 1 year and 3 months and now I enjoy my alone time. If and when thought come to mind of him I out loud say F U !!  It works. It’s my stop sign to him invading my head. 😂🤣

[Songanddance]

Even with limited contact, which I would say is fairly dark/dim, he still consumes my thoughts.  The OW and thoughts of how I compare to her consume me.  I’m pretty sure she is messed up in her own right and he is basically her savior but what about some messed up person with is worth destroying all these lives for?  Our youngest is only 4.  They are still small kids.

It’s been a rough week for me and I’ve found myself regressing. When these strong hard feelings just keep coming how do you get past them?  How do you just let go?

Your mum saying "to forget him for now" is SOOOOO much easier said than done and whilst I'm sure it comes from a place of love, it also comes from a lack of understanding.
If it's limited contact at your request then you have gone dark.  Going dark or dim are emotional boundaries usually established by the LBS and not the MLCer.   If it is he reducing contact then that places you perfectly in the position of choosing when and where to respond.

You are still cycling and this is very common in the first few months - as you say there is no magic switch to flip.

Cycling will be part of the all consuming thoughts that you have.  What you can do is instead of " trying" not to think - is just to do simple tasks that you can think about even if it's only for 5 minutes.  So playing with your child, or getting them involved in preparing a meal or calling a friend and instructing them not to ask about your situation and to keep the topic on something completely different. 

You have to teach yourself not to think. Sounds easy and is harder to do but it is possible.  Meditation, mindfulness and also the good old elastic band around your wrist ( Stayed's go to recommendation) all help.   When you become consumed - make a point of saying "Stop " out loud and then decide what you are going to do in the next 5 minutes and then the next and the next.

You will regress - it is perfectly normal. You will also bounce back.  In time the bouncy bits of life will over take and overcome the regressive parts of your thinking. 

Keeping busy and focussed on other things no matter how trivial really helps. 

Secondly, allow yourself some wallow time - it's normal and it's important to process.  This will help you get a sense of perspective which in turn will allow you time to reduce your absorbing thoughts.  It's a positive cycle to engage with but it takes effort both emotional and physical. 

Letting go is all part of this.  In fact I think you will find a brilliant article on detachment and letting go both in RCR's articles and the links OP gave you in his welcome.

[Treasur]

Even his own mom says to just forget about him for now.  Even with limited contact, which I would say is fairly dark/dim, he still consumes my thoughts

I’d suggest that, with a slightly shifted squint, these things are not as incompatible as they might seem.

The noise in your head is a real thing....we all know that here....and with time and a few tricks it will change....we know that too. But suggesting you don’t think or feel what you are currently thinking or feeling eg ‘forget it about him’ seems impossible, right?
And
Doing is different from thinking/feeling. It isn’t necessarily an either/or at this stage.
So you can not ‘forget about him’ in terms of the thoughts AND ‘forget about him’ in terms of things you DO. Baby steps. And that gets easier with time and practice too.

[Ready2Transform]

You feel what you feel, and you feel it at your own pace and in your own way. I was years deep in all of this when I learned about the concept of "Complicated Grief" and how rumination is a symptom. I forgave myself for a lot of parts of my natural grief process that I was judging and blaming myself for. You've had a big thing happen to you, and a ton of sole responsibility dumped in your lap, over what? It's not justifiable in normal perspective. But it is what it is (to borrow a phrase MLCers like to use). You can't just snap out of it. Some things can be eased by getting some professional help (be it medical or therapy), some by leaning on family and friends, some by just changing your routine up to form some new neural pathways. But some things just take time to sort. I promise you won't feel exactly like you feel today forever, but the change may come so gradually that it doesn't always feel like progress in the middle. But it will come. Big hugs.

[xyzcf]

You can't just snap out of it. Some things can be eased by getting some professional help (be it medical or therapy), some by leaning on family and friends, some by just changing your routine up to form some new neural pathways.

From my experience, he remains in my mind and in my heart...but...I accept that this is "what is" now. I don't know if there is a way to "force" myself not to think about him, and even if there was, I don't want that. Thoughts of him, of us don't prevent me from living a good life.....it's not heartbreak but memory of a time in my life, a time that was extremely important to me.

I am not a fan of attempting to shut out these memories. They exist and I think they can be incorporated into our lives without causing pain. When I was able to do that, things got much better for me.

As ready stated

I promise you won't feel exactly like you feel today forever

It took me a very long time to have peace with this. It has always been my personal goal to be able to not be torn apart by being with him or thinking about him.

Each of us have different ways of coping. You will find what works for you.

[MomOfSteel]

I guess from all your responses I just need to give myself more grace to feel my feelings.  I’m feeling a weird shift in the sadness within myself the last week or so.  It seems like my depression is worsening.  I am hoping it may mean I am progressing somewhat through the grieving process but also worry that it just means I’m falling into a bigger pit.  The therapist thinks it’s just residual depression that will get better with time. 

With the divorce proceeding along I am left to wonder why H is now trying to take the kids to dinner once a week and now wants them until 5 the weekends he has them instead of returning them in time for church.  He has recently decided he no longer believes in the faith he has actively practiced for his whole life.  I guess it’s hard to observe your faith while cheating and making a mockery of vows and your marriage.  It’s like he realizes if he doesn’t take the kids enough he will lose control of us.  I just can’t trust his words that he actually wants to be with them.  He’s further destabilizing the routines and consistency they have had their whole lives.  I suspect it’s to look better before our upcoming court dates.  The therapist sees his rapidly going from thing to thing and constantly changing as running from something.  Just more confirmation that these MLCers are doing exactly that. 

Those with younger kids, how have you helped them cope?  My oldest 3 were all upset when I told them their dad wanted them longer now.  My one child also told me that H told them I was trying to poison them against him.    I’m so sick of this stupid game.  Also I’m wondering if his affair is starting to lose some of its charm as he didn’t give the kids a second thought at first. 

[Treasur]

Being a little cynical, Left, it is possible that he is also following legal advice to establish precedence for future shared custody and visitation? I don’t know what your lawyer is advising you that you should or should not agree to at this stage or how to handle it if they do not want to go or if he changes times etc....you may want to check on that and make sure that your L has a documented record of his prior time with them.

[MomOfSteel]

Treasur I’ve actually had that same thought and am pretty sure it’s what he is doing.  I have a log of every phone call and interaction since he left.  I do think it’s quite possible he is trying to set precedence at the advice of his lawyer.  He wants to keep us from moving but that’s hard if he doesn’t have very regular visitation.  My kids are being used as pawns so he can exert control.  Unfortunately I don’t have grounds to deny his requests of seeing them more.  They hate it.  I’m wondering about his affair losing steam because he seems to have more time to spend with them instead of being so wrapped up with ow and not caring. 

[MadLuv]

Left- my kids are grown, but my XH uses texting only mostly and finds spending time with his kids or his own GS7 very difficult and still avoids in person time. I agree that your H  it is most likely being advised by lawyers or others to keep his contact. The time he spends with the kids should be able to tell if he is engaging more like “old Dad” or not. 

This is so difficult with adult children and young grandchildren. It must be so difficult with at home younger children. My XH spends an enormous amount of time with OW and her adult girls. I think it is more that is what OW wants and it is time he doesn’t have to emotionally engage and gives him a break. He loves his kids and you would never know it right now. Heartbreaking.  Trying to read into where they are with OW does no good. They are in it until they aren’t. Either way I have learned the OW really is nothing. Took a long time. Don’t put any energy there.

[MomOfSteel]

Madluv, that’s good advice to not worry about where he is w/OW although I do hope it ends in a ball of flames at some point with both of them being burned.  Mature, no, but at the advice of my therapist I’m allowing myself to feel those feelings  .  It’s hard to know if he’s engaging like old dad.  My oldest (only 12) says that he acts normal which he just views as fake.  It does sound like most of the time they are watching tv or something and they are bored stiff.  When I hear him talk to the kids it’s with a forced sense of excitement in his voice that sounds fake to me.  Even the 7 yo asked why I can’t just tell dad that they aren’t going to go with him.  This 7 yo worshipped my H before all this.  I suspect that they mostly are entertaining themselves and he’s just going through the motions.  He used to engage but I’m not really seeing it.  Of course my older ones are probably making that hard.  They don’t trust him and are building their own walls.  Oldest thinks it’s hilarious to give H one word answers when he calls until he gives up talking to him. If he’s ever dumb enough to introduce them to OW she better watch out because they will be absolutely vicious. 

[MadLuv]

L&B,
I’m not sure what your family dynamics weee before, but I realized after my XH left just how much I orchestrated our family together time. I truly don’t think he knows how to be with them or entertain them with out me. So much so that he only has seen his daughter 2 times ( bday and xmas) and both with OW. He has not see his son st all as he will not accept OW.

Also, I think we all have a little karma bus in us. I want to see the relationship destroyed like a tornado ripping through a trailer myself. I have to remember that nothing positive is going on there. You cant build any type of loving and positive relationship when it has been built on the pain of others and through lies and manipulation. They are not happy and you hold his history. She cant compete with that!!

[MomOfSteel]

That is a good point.  I guess he would engage some on his own but by in large I’ve always facilitated whatever his ideas were.  I think he’s so self centered right now it’s increasingly hard for him to think about someone else.  He is keeping them for the longest time he has today.   It’s been hard for him to entertain them for one day, much less two in a row.  He’s always had a very busy career so he hasn’t been around a ton.  He used to read to them and try to play games.  That’s all stopped though. 

My MIL said almost the exact same thing about not being able to build happiness on someone else’s pain.  Karma, law of the harvest, whatever you call it I wish it didn’t seem so slow.  I’m not patient.  Holding his history.  That is a good way to put it.  At some point he will hopefully realize he’s given up all of the holders of his history.  The only connection he’s still got is with our kids.  The rest of his past relationships he’s decimated.  It’s like he thinks if he gets rid of everyone that knows him he will be able to pull of his new persona. 

[MadLuv]

It’s like he thinks if he gets rid of everyone that knows him he will be able to pull of his new persona

yep!!!!  This is exactly it. Running from themselves and thinking they can start over, but they cant escape themselves. I told my XH that. He said, I dont see it that way. It proves they really think they can start over and then not face themselves. He has since lost his high executive job of 30 plus years. I hope karma comes to their relationship l, but I do hope he finds his way. I’m sure you do as well. They see the parents of our kids.

[MomOfSteel]

Even if he never comes back to me he needs to pull his head out for his kids sake.  I suppose if he doesn’t though really in the end, he will  be the one to lose.  He may never realize it or admit it, but he’s the one that is giving up what should be his most fulfilling relationships.  My job might just be to eventually show them how to move on and cut toxic people out of their lives.  I worry that the affair will eventually threaten his career and in turn my alimony and child support.   It’s terrifying to face the financial uncertainty. 

[KellBell]

I think by cutting off relationships and effectively starting over allows them to live without guilt or shame or accountability for their actions. And honestly, I don't think they care right now. If the relationship isn't supporting them or making them feel good and right about their choices...then good riddance. They think they are in the right. They deserve to be happy. And they aren't looking much into the future or examining repercussions. It's all about instant gratification.

It's really one of the hardest things I've had to accept. That our MLCer is kind of oblivious to the carnage they are creating and they are so selfish with no empathy. But you can't ignore and shy away from that stuff forever. There is always a day of reckoning.

[MomOfSteel]

Sometimes I wonder how he will feel, if he will feel, when his dad passes.  His dad is okay for now but elderly and getting frail.  His dad currently won’t even speak to him because of how he views what H is doing.  He may have already spoken the last words he will ever be able to speak to him and they were angry words. 

[MomOfSteel]

The emotions of this are awful.  I wish we could just hurry everything up and be done at this point.  If I have to look at one more financial document I think my brain might explode.  Also, my kid somehow managed to slide a drawer out in the bathroom just as he shut the door and left the bathroom.  I just spent 2 hours trying to rig something to go under the door to push the drawer back in so we could open the door.  He did it because he was mad and most of the other bathrooms apparently he can do this then get his fingers in the crack and get the drawer back in.  Not this one, there was barely a crack.    I am just done... but I'm not because I need to find a therapist for my kids who scream about how much they hate everything and do the taxes and get all the paperwork to my lawyer and do laundry and cook and pay bills and do all the things that the one responsible adult has to do all while trying to make up for the one who isn't and just wants to &**())% the underling at work and feel like some big shot.  The list just keeps going.  Knowing I have to do this and then still be manipulated, still be controlled and probably forced to live somewhere until my kids are grown because he wants visiting to be easy for him and I won't have any choice.  I wish I could force him to feel the pain he is inflicting on everyone else.  I want the pain to crush him as it has crushed me and my kids.  I want him to pay for what he is doing.  I feel there is no real justice though.  There is no winning in this at least not for me and not for my children.  I feel so angry right now.  I hate feeling angry, I'm in general not an angry person. 

I also feel bad for being so mad.  If MLC is a legitimate mental illness where does accountability begin and end.  How much of this is he truly responsible for?  How much control does he have over what he is doing?  I know people say its like feeling a compulsion to do all these things, but why does he have to give in?  Why? 

[KellBell]

I've spoken these same words and uttered these same questions. Once you get the divorce finalized - it does get easier. Although I still haven't opened the final divorce decree document. Can't bear to read it and see his signature. Pain, confusion, exhaustion...it gets to be overwhelming. All I can say is I hear you and totally understand and can relate!

[UrsaMajor]

If MLC is a legitimate mental illness where does accountability begin and end.  How much of this is he truly responsible for?  How much control does he have over what he is doing?  I know people say its like feeling a compulsion to do all these things, but why does he have to give in?  Why?

This is a question that has as many answers as there are opinions....

My personal opinion (for what it is worth) is that, while MLC may be an identity crisis or whatever, these people are NOT "insane" by a legal definition that would absolve them of responsibility. They know very well right from wrong and they are fully capable of making choices. Witness that many MLC'ers continue to function pretty well in the work world, etc.  They have the mental capability to make decision - they just choose to make the WRONG (in our view) decisions.

What appears to be a common thread though is a total lack of empathy with others - they simply can not/do not/will not recognize that their actions have impacts on others. They are so caught up in their own little self-centered world that their reality does not include the emotions of anyone else. They are after one and only one thing and that is their next shot of "happy."

Why do they give in to these compulsions or temptations? Because it gives them a flood of dopamine and Serotonin in the brain ("happy" hormones) and they live for that "kick." The MLC'er typically has NO ability to self-sooth or to exercise control over their own mental state. They are unable to crawl out of the hole they find themselves in and each set-back or disappointment is an unending black hole of permanence. Healthy people take a set-back and, while we may feel down or depressed or angered or frustrated or whatever, we know that this will pass. We can comfort ourselves and know that, OK, yeah that was a real $#!t-show" but it is not the end of the world as we know it and life will go on.... An MLC'er sees it often as the end of everything. They can NOT comfort themselves, they have no foundation.... Instead, they have spent their entire lives filling their inner bucket with external things. The problem is that those buckets will rust after a while and start leaking so their internal happiness level starts going down like a hot rock on Jupiter.... They become frantic in trying to keep that bucket full because they don't know how to fill it internally.... and <voila!> off into the tunnel they go....

UM

[JohnnyBravo]

It’s been a rough week for me and I’ve found myself regressing. When these strong hard feelings just keep coming how do you get past them?  How do you just let go?

I don't know why I didn't remember this in the first place, but there's a movie called Ghost Dog that draws on quotes from the Hagakure, observations on the code of the Samurai. One quote featured in the move I think applies to the LBS:

There is something to be learned from a rainstorm. When meeting with a sudden shower, you try not to get wet and run quickly along the road. By doing such things as passing under the eaves of houses, you still get wet. When you are resolved from the beginning, you will not be perplexed, though you will still get the same soaking. This understanding extends to all things.

Which I take to mean that you will ultimately feel all of the emotions, whether you try to dodge them or face them head on/accept them. Resolve to accept them.

JB

[MomOfSteel]

JB I really like that quote.  I was trying to find a therapist for my son today.  Yeah, that’s near impossible.  I talked to one that I explained the situation.  His take was betrayal trauma was psychologically one of the worst things you can go through in his experience only second to the loss of a child.  As we talked about the issues, he talked about people in my Hs profession to basically learn to turn their emotions off.  They shut down, the distance, they begin to lack feelings in their personal relationships and it causes huge problems.  Within 10 minutes he basically had my H pegged.  He even asked if there was a major event that started everything.  I mentioned there was. He even called bull$@!t on some of the stuff he has said to me.  It was validating to say the least.  I wish he had openings and I wish my H could go to him instead of the crackpot he is going to that justifies his actions for him.  Oldest is having issues at school.  Second oldest is struggling.  I can’t get them in anywhere.  It’s so frustrating.  They need help I can’t provide. 

[MomOfSteel]

UM a rusty bucket is right.  It’s amazing how someone so highly intelligent can have so many holes.  It would be interesting to know how many MLCers have addictive personalities.   I suspect quite a number of them.  I almost wish they could be considered insane, it would be easier to brush off their actions. 

Can we talk practicalities for a minute?  What things do you consider important to work out with custody?  I know some people have regrets not having certain things spelled out.  Any advice?  We have a meeting to work out temporary arrangements coming up and I’m trying to get my ducks in a row. 

[UrsaMajor]

Can we talk practicalities for a minute?  What things do you consider important to work out with custody?  I know some people have regrets not having certain things spelled out.  Any advice?  We have a meeting to work out temporary arrangements coming up and I’m trying to get my ducks in a row.

This is SO dependant on your R with the Mid-Lifer.....

If I had that magical time reverser doohicky from Harry Potter that Hermione had, I'd do a couple of things differently... For example, with xW1, I would have visitation spelled out VERY specifically - we didn't and she prevented me from seeing D32 for a significant part of her life as a small child. I had to threaten her with a court order to get her to calm down and allow my daughter to come to see me in Colorado, even though I was paying for the entire trip and all.

For xW2 (yeah, I hit the Mid-Lifer jackpot), our agreement states that the kids will be in what the Germans call "Wechsel modus" which means that they spend 50% of their time with me. Unfortunately, xW2 has convinced D11 that xW2 needs D11 to be responsible for xW2's emotional health so D11 comes to me every 2nd weekend. S14 is less impressed and, well, he's a teenager so he goes to whoever has the better dinner on offer... Again, if I had to do it all over again, I'd be a little more specific about what "50%" means. Other than that, xW2 was not a monster and was in such a hurry to get D'd that there is nothing official or legally binding about child support as it is assumed that the kids are 50/50 so there is no need for me to pay her. Since D11 is there more often, I do give her something but I also pay for the kids health insurance and other things for them directly but I will not be forking over large amounts of cash so xW can by another pair of Gucci shoes or pay her mortgage. For example, S14 needed a new Mattress and xW2 asked me for the money to buy him one. Instead, I bought the Mattress myself and had it delivered to her apartment.... THAT kind of thing.... I have no issue with supporting my kids but I refuse to support her MLC lifestyle...

[KellBell]

My suggestion would be to have everything written out in the parenting plan. Visitation, number of holidays, times for drop offs and pick ups,  etc. You and your h can use it as a guide, but if he starts to act worse or drift further away and quit parenting...at least you will have something to fall back on. It's beneficial in two ways. 1) The kids will have a set schedule to adjust and become settled with. 2). If he starts to fall behind and cancel visits, weekends, holidays etc- then you can take him to court and have your support modified. Plus it's just really helpful with planning and finding a new normal. My attorney also suggested having it noted in the parenting plan- that the kids should have set bedrooms in your H's house. That way if they are spending 40-50% of their time there- then they have a space that's theirs and comfortable. To help with the adjustment. I'm not sure of the wording, but your attorney should know.

 I would also get support spelled out. Like start with alimony and child support...and then as each kid ages out- that money folds over into your alimony. So your monthly payment total stays the same. Or at least put that in as your offer and he can negotiate from there. Also stipulate that he will pay 50/50 of the extracurricular activities such as sports, lessons etc. Also come to an agreement on car insurance and vehicle purchases for when the time comes. And if he is carrying the children on medical insurance- make sure it stipulates that he needs to cover them until they are 26 or have the option of employment based coverage. It just gives your children a little extra cushion as they are starting out.

And I'm not sure where you live- but it was beneficial for me to get to claim the kids on taxes. Child support and alimony aren't taxable income. So it benefits me- it also screws him as he will not have any dependents and in his tax bracket that's a bit painful. I'm sure how that works with custody and stuff. I have full custody with no set visitation rights for him (his choice).

Bottom line- go to the table asking for everything that way you can negotiate down to what you really want. My MLCer has refused to contribute to our minor children's sports, lessons etc and so now I'm having to have him served in contempt for not following the order. MLCers seem to think they can just do what they want with no consequences. These papers will hold them accountable with legal rammifications- so make sure you have everything spelled out.

[MomOfSteel]

Thank you UM and KellBell, that is helpful.  Luckily he doesn't want them half the time, I mean, that would interfere with his fun right?  Hopefully the court sees through his attempts at trying to get more time right before court as he hasn't been concerned in the months prior.  I'm so glad you brought up cars and insurance until they are 26.  Hopefully he will do the right thing.  He seems to think child support should just cover everything.  Luckily I think the state's standard is extracurricular, school tuition, and medical bills are 50/50 split and it is in our requests for formal orders.  He has no reason to not pay it other than he doesn't want to which I don't think will fly.  Basically he likes to whine about how little money he has now  . Should have thought that one through a little. 

[MomOfSteel]

You all will have to excuse me while I laugh like an unhinged person. Hahahahahaba.  ha. Talked to family who had contact with him.  . Apparently despite me being an intelligent person, I have still asked for a consistent parenting schedule and H has explained he just can’t do that so why would I want it in a court order.  Uh, it’s what’s best for the kids.  I mean, he explained it to me so why being intelligent would I possibly not see it his way?  What’s best for him is obviously best for everyone.  Also, I need more friends, I don’t need family support and I should not be encouraged by them.    it’s just laughable. 

[UrsaMajor]

You all will have to excuse me while I laugh like an unhinged person. Hahahahahaba.  ha. Talked to family who had contact with him.  . Apparently despite me being an intelligent person, I have still asked for a consistent parenting schedule and H has explained he just can’t do that so why would I want it in a court order.  Uh, it’s what’s best for the kids.  I mean, he explained it to me so why being intelligent would I possibly not see it his way?  What’s best for him is obviously best for everyone.  Also, I need more friends, I don’t need family support and I should not be encouraged by them.    it’s just laughable.

[KellBell]

Wow. I would laugh if this wasn't so eerily similar to my xh. Are you sure they aren't long lost twins?

But seriously - it's laughable when they when they say the most asinine things with such calmness and confidence. I have literally been left speechless at times, wondering if they think before they speak or hear the nonsense they are speaking. 

[MadLuv]

Not much to add but that Ursa’s response on MLCer mental illness is brilliantly on point!!!

[MomOfSteel]

I had a phone call last night that totally threw me over the edge for what is to come legally.  I just hope my lawyer can wipe the floor with his.  Looks like he’s trying to get out of paying as much as he can and now thinks we will just have to let a judge decide everything.  Also wants to explore ending the relationship legally asap and then we can fight about the financial aspects after.  I guess that’s a thing you can do?  That felt like a slap in the face.  I know it’s just more MLC garbage but he just keeps twisting the knife.  Can’t cut ties with me fast enough but isn’t willing to agree to much.  Today I feel like the divorce will be so contentious that even if reconciling could have been on the table it won’t be.  Also I guess his lawyer estimates 50-100k in legal fees each and it lasting up to 2 years.  Guess it’s hard to fully run away when legally you are still married. 

[MadLuv]

LB- Can your lawyer suggest mediation? The cost to go to court never work out for either. I’m so sorry. Yes, the need to break off the relationship status before financial is hard to grasp. That is normally their need to be able to do what ever they want with out adding more guilt. ( in their crazy mind)

[MomOfSteel]

KellBell, it really is weird that there is such a script for this.  The more people I’ve talked to who have gone through this it’s amazing how many of the exact same things come out of those mouths. Maybe they are long lost alien twins inhabiting their bodies. 

Madluv, I’m sure mine will.  He just wants to fight unles he gets his way and his lawyer is encouraging it.  He’s a cash cow for him.

[Thunder]

Left I'm so sorry to hear this.  Mine thought he would get off easy too, but that did not happen.  The courts are usually pretty fair.

May I ask if you are in the UK?  I know some places you can get divorced without a settlement first, which I never understood.

Please take your time and work with you lawyer.  Don't let him rush you.
There is no way it should cost you THAT much money.  His attorney is crazy or trying to intimidate you.

These MLCer's are something else.   

I'll have to catch up on your thread.  Again I'm so sorry you are going through this.

[MomOfSteel]

Thunder I’m in the US.  Unfortunately I think that number might be realistic in our case if he decides to not compromise.  I also want to move which will be more fighting in court.  Apparently his convenience a couple days a month is more important that anything else to him.  Heaven forbid he tries to think of anyone else or gasp, what might be best for his kids.  The good news is that his level of behavior has finally reached a point I just feel done with it, at least for today.  After filling my therapist in on the situation she just looked at me and said, is it helping you detach and I realized it was.  It’s just reached a level of such absurdity.  I’m still considering myself standing but I don’t want him in my life right now.  He needs to figure himself out and walk his twisted dark path.  Whatever happens happens. 

 I don’t understand getting divorced without a settlement either.  He didn’t understand why I wouldn’t care to do that or possibly just not care at all.  All I can figure is he wants to feel less guilt and thinks that’s the answer or he wants to get married to his AP. I don’t really plan on cooperating unless it benefits me or the kids I refuse to be pushed any longer into things that are out of convenience for him.  Can’t stick to a consistent schedule, that sounds like a personal problem, don’t want to pay what is standard by law, personal problem, kids don’t like you, personal problem, your family and friends don’t support you, personal problem.   Maybe this will just further justify his behavior to himself but I can’t worry about that. It’s time I stop allowing him control over my life.  I no longer have the job of making his life easy.  Being a grown up is so hard when you are simultaneously trying to be an adolescent. 

I’m not sure what his lawyers game is.  He seems like a sleazy guy and I think they will try to pull stuff.  I believe my H is underestimating me.  He’s always thought I take too long to decide things but I’m analytical by nature and like to try and understand and gather as much information on whatever is happening to make an informed well thought out decision.  He just is reacting and making rash decisions right and left.  His knee jerk rushed behaviors will most likely backfire in this situation. 

He’s unstable and often contradicts himself in the same conversation.  I don’t understand how they can function at work.  It’s also like he tries to project this image of I’m Mr Wonderful and I wear expensive clothes (that honestly are starting to look ridiculous with the giant designer logos that scream look at me) and I have such an exciting life and am such an intellectual, everyone envies me.  What he doesn’t realize is that it just shows his insecurity even more and he looks like a giant self-absorbed turd. 

End rant. 

[Thunder]

Left you need to start a new thread please, but don't worry he will need to agree to a settlement before any divorce can be done.

With 4 young children he will not be able to just walk away from his obligations, just get a good lawyer who will work for you.  You have a lot to say about what kind of settlement you will agree on.

New thread:  https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11905.0