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Author Topic: My Story TRUST IN WHAT MAY OR MAY NOT COME

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My Story TRUST IN WHAT MAY OR MAY NOT COME
OP: January 17, 2023, 08:40:45 AM
Previous Thread
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11884.150

Crazy how it is time for a new thread.....it has been a while so I hope I still remembered how to do it...lol...

Quick Recap......BD 2017 and he always contacted every 6 weeks.....longer conversations over the last 12 months as his mother passed....but still unsure

So......Jan 16th was supposed to be our date that he asked for back in July and confirmed in October.....I did not remind him as I leave it up to him to reach out to me.....I had been looking forward to this for a long time and of course I knew that I shouldn't have because we all know what happens when we have expectations. Not a word from him and so the day came an went and of course I was sad, but as much as I wanted to numb the pain with food, I did not. I felt all the emotions of disappointment and hurt and hopelessness and cried and then went to the gym to take my mind off.  Later that evening I emailed him shortly just saying that he could have just told me he changed his mind rather than standing me up.  He always replies within minutes so when he did not of course my monkeys started spinning of him having been in an accident or gotten arrested...crazy stuff.......at 3 am the reply came......he had totally forgot about the date with legal property issues and he did not mean to stand me up.

Well, at least he is not dead or arrested.....so there is that and I did not reply.

I realize that the emotional upheaval for this is entirely my fault as I had expectations and as much as I try to not have any....some times I cannot help it.

Hope is such a two sided sword...it is what keeps us alive and it is also what will slowly kill us....which goes back to what I need to learn TRUST in whatever may be or not be.

My new mantra each morning now....I am enough - I am worthy - Focus on Being and Receiving




 

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TRUST IN WHAT MAY OR MAY NOT COME
#1: January 17, 2023, 11:56:57 PM
Previous Thread
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11884.150

Crazy how it is time for a new thread.....it has been a while so I hope I still remembered how to do it...lol...

You did remember....
Quick Recap......BD 2017 and he always contacted every 6 weeks.....longer conversations over the last 12 months as his mother passed....but still unsure

So......Jan 16th was supposed to be our date that he asked for back in July and confirmed in October.....I did not remind him as I leave it up to him to reach out to me.....I had been looking forward to this for a long time and of course I knew that I shouldn't have because we all know what happens when we have expectations. Not a word from him and so the day came an went and of course I was sad, but as much as I wanted to numb the pain with food, I did not. I felt all the emotions of disappointment and hurt and hopelessness and cried and then went to the gym to take my mind off. 

I'd say the gym vs food was a good decision....

Later that evening I emailed him shortly just saying that he could have just told me he changed his mind rather than standing me up. 
Why? What did you hope to get out of the e-mail? Peace of mind? Validation? Something to consider....

He always replies within minutes so when he did not of course my monkeys started spinning of him having been in an accident or gotten arrested...crazy stuff.......at 3 am the reply came......



But, you've been fired from the position of needing to be concerned about what is going on in his life.... so, again, the question comes up "What is in it for you to worry about him?"

he had totally forgot about the date with legal property issues and he did not mean to stand me up.


I realize that the emotional upheaval for this is entirely my fault as I had expectations and as much as I try to not have any....some times I cannot help it.

Rule #1 in customer relations (and other relations/relationships) is managing expectations.... Maybe it is time to consider that, when you have expectations that he will actually DO something, you know in advance that there is a 99.99999% chance that you are setting yourself up for disappointment because he is simply NOT capable of living up to your expectations anymore...

Hope is such a two sided sword...it is what keeps us alive and it is also what will slowly kill us....which goes back to what I need to learn TRUST in whatever may be or not be.

Hope and expectations are very different - Hope is the desire for an outcome with the full knowledge (AND ACCEPTANCE) that the desired result may  not be achieved and  being OK with whatever the result is, regardless. Expectation is wanting a desired outcome and being impacted emotionally negatively when it doesn't happen....

My new mantra each morning now....I am enough - I am worthy - Focus on Being and Receiving

And to stop sticking the proverbial Barbecue Fork up your nose!

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TRUST IN WHAT MAY OR MAY NOT COME
#2: January 19, 2023, 08:00:44 AM
Oh how I missed you Ursa with the monkeys in my head and the blahblahblah dog and the hard hitting truths....

Quote
Why? What did you hope to get out of the e-mail? Peace of mind? Validation? Something to consider....

That one hurt....but I did sit with it and asked myself what my intention was. My intentions were I guess to hear him say that he forgot and still wanted that date. Which I guess would be sort of validation.....

And he did send another email yesterday apologizing again and asking if I wanted to meet for dinner. I said yes and send him my available days and zero response.....what the heck......why ask and then zone out.............dangit....I will NEVER NEVER NEVER understand it and I know...just stop trying, but when can we treat them like normal people again......arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

So frustrated, so hopeful and hopeless at the same time and time in life is running out with each year ....

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TRUST IN WHAT MAY OR MAY NOT COME
#3: January 19, 2023, 09:25:13 AM
Quote
what the heck......why ask and then zone out.............dangit....I will NEVER NEVER NEVER understand

I have this happen all the time and then my monkey brain starts going to all kinds of scenarios and then he responds. He doesn't have any idea that not responding back in the time frame we would like to see matters to me...I recently was talking about this to Trusting for she experiences the same thing.

As Ursa has so wonderfully said, trying to understand is like trying to taste the color green.

It's learning Schratz...just learning to accept him for whatever he is and finding peace that it doesn't affect your day to day life really. I know you were looking at that Jan 16 date but if you think about it, it is rather bizarre that he would have picked a date so many months away...and then of course "forgot" it......


As DontGiveUp taught me so well years ago...just shrug your shoulders and say "oh well".

I get upset because it feels like he doesn't treat me like he would his friends...but then I have no idea how he treats them either......I don't know how to explain why they act so strange but they do and it does affect us even when we try hard to put them on a shelf and not be disturbed by their behavior.

I guess that is the problem with having some contact...because we can't really figure out why they do things.

You have a good understanding of all this, and eventually the understanding will become a way to just accept him for who he is...the alternative is not to have any contact I guess.
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« Last Edit: January 19, 2023, 09:26:53 AM by xyzcf »
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

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TRUST IN WHAT MAY OR MAY NOT COME
#4: January 19, 2023, 10:06:21 AM
Without getting into the whys and wherefires of this....vvv
Quote
And he did send another email yesterday apologizing again and asking if I wanted to meet for dinner. I said yes and send him my available days and zero response.....what the heck......why ask and then zone out.............dangit....I will NEVER NEVER NEVER understand it and I know...just stop trying, but when can we treat them like normal people again......arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
I would suggest it is a pattern. Just like Lucy removing the ball when Charlie goes to kick it  ::)
And, as xyzcf says, you have a few choices. Accept the pattern of words and no action so change your expectations; say yes if you want to but expect nothing other than being pleasantly surprised if he follows through. Do nothing and if he initiates contact again, be a bit matter of fact blunt that you’re not sure you can be bothered to agree to anything until/unless he can show you that he will actually follow through. Or decide to stop playing, pick up your ball, ignore him and go play with other people.

Your frustration - understandable as it is - is bc you are expecting x and getting y. You can’t control y so the only thing in your control imho is to stop expecting x.  :)
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Re: TRUST IN WHAT MAY OR MAY NOT COME
#5: January 19, 2023, 12:37:24 PM
S66, I would encourage you to stop asking yourself why he continues to do what he does, and instead turn your focus to you and why you keep choosing to repeat the same patterns over and over again.  The best way to break a pattern is to choose to change the the mechanics of it.  Hopefully your therapist can help you do that. 
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TRUST IN WHAT MAY OR MAY NOT COME
#6: January 20, 2023, 12:53:22 AM
I would suggest it is a pattern. Just like Lucy removing the ball when Charlie goes to kick it  ::)


And, as xyzcf says, you have a few choices. Accept the pattern of words and no action so change your expectations; say yes if you want to but expect nothing other than being pleasantly surprised if he follows through. Do nothing and if he initiates contact again, be a bit matter of fact blunt that you’re not sure you can be bothered to agree to anything until/unless he can show you that he will actually follow through. Or decide to stop playing, pick up your ball, ignore him and go play with other people.

Your frustration - understandable as it is - is bc you are expecting x and getting y. You can’t control y so the only thing in your control imho is to stop expecting x.  :)

WORD!

S66, I would encourage you to stop asking yourself why he continues to do what he does, and instead turn your focus to you and why you keep choosing to repeat the same patterns over and over again.  The best way to break a pattern is to choose to change the the mechanics of it.  Hopefully your therapist can help you do that. 

Couldn't have said it better myself....

"Doctor, it REALLY hurts when I stick this barbecue fork up my nose."
"Then STOP STICKING THE BARBECUE FORK UP YOUR NOSE!"
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TRUST IN WHAT MAY OR MAY NOT COME
#7: January 20, 2023, 07:44:06 AM
Firstly - thank you all for hanging in there with me as I hang by a thin thread.

How I have managed to survive 5 1/2 years is only by the Grace of God and this forum with its kind and wise people.
The last 12 months where he went from cool to regret to apologizing to expressing he still loves me and then going cool again has been so hard. Sure, this is what I wanted but I am not sure I can see it through. I am truly at my final breaking point but feel trapped because I do still love him.

Quote
turn your focus to you and why you keep choosing to repeat the same patterns over and over again.

I do understand why I keep repeating this pattern (and I hate that I repeat them but have not been able to stop) .....he reminds me a little of my father and I think deep down I felt that if he returns and loves me then my father was wrong all those years ago that I was unlovable. The other part is that with him was the only time in my life ever that I was truly happy, that I ever felt loved and felt joy.  And while I am not a therapist I think I am afraid that without him I will never be any of that ever again, even though logically I know that one has nothing to do with the other.  And my brain realizes that I should be happy and joyful regardless of who I am with or not, and that self love is the answer.....which is what my therapist is focusing on right now but it will take a while to get there.

Quote
Accept the pattern of words and no action so change your expectations; say yes if you want to but expect nothing other than being pleasantly surprised if he follows through. Do nothing and if he initiates contact again, be a bit matter of fact blunt that you’re not sure you can be bothered to agree to anything until/unless he can show you that he will actually follow through. Or decide to stop playing, pick up your ball, ignore him and go play with other people.

The first few years I despised the word 'time' .....and while true - time was the only thing to make this journey easier or more manageable at least...I hated seeing it.......now the word that I cannot wrap myself around is 'expectations'......and yes, I know I must stop having them...and Ursa did explain that hope and expectations are different....in my muddled head though ....if I let go of expectations I let go of hope and if I let go of hope what is left to get up out of bed for ?

I have always been goal oriented and I am sure it stems back to that the only time I was loved as a child was when you achieved goals. It makes me a great employee because you tell me what the goal is and I will work relentless until I get there. With life there is not necessarily a goal - because in the end we will all die, but life is more about being able to be in the moment and finding peace and happiness within. So then you think well, what brings me peace and happiness and whoops there is that goal of grabbing on what made you happy and whoops there are those silly expectations again.

For my own sanity I should stop playing ball and just take my ball and play elsewhere, but giving up seems wrong even if it is to save myself. 

At this point friends and my D ask how many more years am I going to waste and how many more years will I cry over this man and if do not let go I will end up like my mother wasting the rest of my life.

Sorry for my rambling on and being such a mess currently....I know only I can change the pain by learning to not have expectations at all. Sounds like a great exploration topic for therapy next week.


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TRUST IN WHAT MAY OR MAY NOT COME
#8: January 20, 2023, 08:30:19 AM
Please, please don’t apologise to us for any of your thinking out loud here. It’s not necessary and we get it bc we have or are in similar shoes.

It sounds as if you are starting to see some links and connections from your past that may have not been quite so useful to you in dealing with this situation. Which tbh is normal often too, isn’t it? And perhaps a different version of hope that lies more in your hands, something to sow seeds for even? I found your thoughts about valuing (or being valued) for goals over being very interesting and I bet you’re not alone in wrestling with that....listening to some of my older friends, it seems to be part of the process of evolving into older versions of ourselves even without a big MLC splat  :)

Hugs from here, my friend. I think you're on a fruitful path....just keep going, baby steps and with curiosity xxx
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TRUST IN WHAT MAY OR MAY NOT COME
#9: January 20, 2023, 08:31:34 AM
Although we can tell ourselves to walk away, to stop responding to them, to stop having expectations each of us are different. For many many reasons, we all do not easily stop our love or desire to be with them……
It is important to acknowledge our feelings and also the reality of now. For those of us who truly had happy and fulfilling marriages, we may not be “ happier” now, no matter how much we GAL and indeed even if we are involved in another relationship.
Don’t beat yourself over your feelings. They do not necessarily hold us back from living well. They are a part of who we are. The many years spent together and love…which in itself very complicated and not easily dismissible.
For those of us whose spouses continue to contact us, and if we decide that this is what we want, then there will be some hurt involved because the rejection we feel is there.
For those of us who see MLC as something that is beyond their control….then there tends to be a different way that we look at the MLCer….as you know there are very different opinions on HS and you are wise to take what applies to you and disregard the rest.
If he contacts you again ( and he probably will) think about how you might be able to change your internal response if you choose you still wish to have that contact.
The technique that helped me was to freeze frame the situation, make the “picture” smaller, turn down the volume, dim the color….I faced my reality of what contact did to my peace of mind and I wanted to be calmer and more peaceful. So with time and practice, I have been able to continue to have a relationship with him without it causing me harm. That is what I wanted.
You get to decide. Just don’t heap more “ blame” on yourself for feeling the way that you do. It is very probable that his love and how you felt unloved by your father is something that has deep roots inside of you. We are a product of our families, our environment, our genetic makeup…it’s very complicated just as love is.

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« Last Edit: January 20, 2023, 08:35:12 AM by xyzcf »
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

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TRUST IN WHAT MAY OR MAY NOT COME
#10: January 23, 2023, 06:20:42 AM
Thank you Treasure - hug was truly needed.

Thank you XY - you always have a way of calming me down and that was badly needed.

The only good thing about this internal turmoil is that I've been to the gym every single day just to exhaust myself physically so I do not have the energy to wallow. And I realize that the current turmoil is just exaggerated by the loss of my father and accepting that now he will never tell me he loved me. I think when we lose that final parent one goes into freefall because suddenly your 'guaranteed' love and belonging somewhere disappears. It brings up the knowledge that we are next in line for death and what do we have to show for it. And I don't mean material items as that never mattered much to me. And realizing how little time we have left, it makes it more senseless that MLC are wasting years and years of our time together. I just want to rush things along and him finally figure out if he wants to come home or be gone for good. One would think that almost 6 years would be long enough to make that decision. And why sprinkle hope and apologies and I love yous into it if you still have no idea what you want.

I am trying really hard to not reach out.....
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TRUST IN WHAT MAY OR MAY NOT COME
#11: January 23, 2023, 01:10:44 PM
Quote
It brings up the knowledge that we are next in line for death and what do we have to show for it. And I don't mean material items as that never mattered much to me. And realizing how little time we have left, it makes it more senseless that MLC are wasting years and years of our time together.

If you flip this around the MLCer sees time running out and to them , it makes sense that they decide to live and do whatever they please...without a spouse, without responsibilities, to explore different things... and so off they go.

Quote
I just want to rush things along and him finally figure out if he wants to come home or be gone for good. One would think that almost 6 years would be long enough to make that decision
.

When we are married, we are perhaps like a train on one track. Their crisis hits and we continue on the track we were both on together and they veer off in another direction. The track they are following is what they want...although they know that the other track exists and they don't forget the good times we had...it's just not as interesting or what they want because time is running out. Yet perhaps there are times when they reach out to us...maybe they have a moment of nostalgia but they stay on the track they are on and might veer off again and again and again...so they are not thinking about making a decision, they are too busy finding life.

We might not think this is "better" than the life we had together..but we are not in their heads. They are listening and enjoying a different tune that what we like.
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"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

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TRUST IN WHAT MAY OR MAY NOT COME
#12: January 23, 2023, 03:24:07 PM
Xyzf it’s so true what you said. There are times when I ask myself if my h thought of me and the life we had together. By the looks on his post, you are right. i don’t think I even came across his mind. He seems to be enjoying the freedom he has now, no responsibilities towards a spouse. He is enjoying the life of being a triathlete and having a younger OW on his side who cheers him on. Why would he want to think of that old life.

It’s hard to accept this when you are so involved with your MLC spouse. But once you step back, you will see that they really are on the run. They enjoy what they have now and they will keep on running and find the next thrill to cover up the pain and the fear of getting old.
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TRUST IN WHAT MAY OR MAY NOT COME
#13: January 24, 2023, 08:27:09 AM
Thank you Dragon and XY...

I feel much better today and am much calmer again...whew.....those unhinged days are exhausting...

Quote
If you flip this around the MLCer sees time running out and to them , it makes sense that they decide to live and do whatever they please...without a spouse, without responsibilities, to explore different things... and so off they go.

Very true XYZ....it is a little funny though that the only different thing he chose to explore is the high school sweetheart....lol......it did not work out then and it will not work out now and so not much difference there.....and the whole property nightmare after his father's passing is still as much of a mess as it was 6 years ago.....some days I wonder if he realizes that not much has changed except he picked a different player token.....you'd think he might consider that maybe he is the issue in his unhappiness....lol.



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TRUST IN WHAT MAY OR MAY NOT COME
#14: January 25, 2023, 02:06:54 AM
some days I wonder if he realizes that not much has changed except he picked a different player token.....you'd think he might consider that maybe he is the issue in his unhappiness....lol.

This would, of course, require him to acknowledge and accept responsibility for his choices and actions and that is something that Mid-Lifers are loath to do. As long as they can blame someone/something else external for their unhappiness, all is right in their world. Having to acknowledge/accept that the source of their unhappiness is within themselves would imply that they have real work they need to do and that is a real buzzkill.  It is MUCH easier to keep picking new tokens to play with...

However, a question for you... your wondering if he realizes ANYTHING serves you how? Goes back to "I wonder what green tastes like?"


In the grand scheme of YOUR life, does it really matter if HE realizes anything? If he does, he will and if not, he won't. YOUR life, however, doesn't need to be impacted by or contingent on whether he gets his head out of his ... fog... or not, right?
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Me - 60, xW - 54
Together 19 years - Married 17 at separation & 21 at D-Day
S - 16, D - 12
1 Dog
BD#1 - August 2015
Atomic BD - 13 Dec 2015
House sold & separated - Mar 2016
Divorce final 30 August 2019
Moved on in life

Survival Instructions for Newbies
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A "friend" will not "stand by you" no matter what you do. That is NOT a friend. That is an enabler. That is an accomplice.
A REAL friend will sit you down and tell you to your face to stop being a firetrucking idiot before you ruin your life and the lives of those around you.

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TRUST IN WHAT MAY OR MAY NOT COME
#15: January 26, 2023, 07:14:08 AM
Quote
However, a question for you... your wondering if he realizes ANYTHING serves you how? Goes back to "I wonder what green tastes like?"

Thank you Ursa....it does not serve me at all ...I don't know anything in his head nor should I ponder about it nor do I have any control over it.

I had a difficult but very productive therapy session yesterday - many tears were shed a very critical discovery was made. 
I asked my therapist why I had such trouble detaching from MLC when I know logically that I must do so to survive.

She asked what do you fear you will lose if you release him ? My answer: Life

I think it shocked her a little but we dove further into this and due to a messed up childhood and other life factors....the only time I have ever felt alive was with MLC. He was the only person that I ever had that deep connection with and felt seen, and heard, and felt safe to express any feelings, and felt belonging to.

She then showed me Maslow's hierarchy of needs
https://educationlibrary.org/maslows-hierarchy-of-needs-in-education/

I basically only have the bottom layer which is Physical needs i.e. water, food, sleep
In my life I did not have the other layers of the pyramid except during my relationship with MLC.
So, of course my mind refuses to let go of what it considers basic needs which in this case my mind only connects with MLC.

This is truly sad and disturbing but it also explains that I am not just a pathetic clinger ...my messed up mind is convinced that my life depends on that connection.

On the other side we also discovered that the joy and spirit and happiness I felt with him is already in me and I am capable of feeling it - to feel it again I need to find that safety layer elsewhere.  And I thought about that and truly, since MLC left, I have not been able to talk about everything and anything and feel validated with anyone else. Yes, I have friends, and yes, I have a daughter, but I do not let myself be totally me. That connection with MLC is just so easy, so comfortable and so trusting and I have never had that with anyone else.

So, it is not the man I cannot let go, it is the connection....if I can find that connection with another human then I will be able to detach.
Sounds easier said then done but it does give me hope.

Still doesn't make it easier to not reach out like a drug addict and want a fix, but it gives me something to work on
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#16: January 26, 2023, 07:46:22 AM
Sounds like really good work that you and your therapist are doing.

I do agree, we really do not know what they are thinking/feeling or why they do certain things. There is such limited communication and no real "talking" that trying to interpret anything they do just sends us spinning and that stops us from using that energy in other ways.

I wanted to bring this up:

Quote
So, it is not the man I cannot let go, it is the connection....if I can find that connection with another human then I will be able to detach.
Sounds easier said then done but it does give me hope.

I have found, that I have "old" friends in my life that even if I don't see them or speak to them for a long time, when I do get to see them, it's an instant connection ...we "know" one another and it takes no time to reconnect. The intensity of the relationship we had with our spouse is much deeper than with a friend so it's understandable that the connection remains deep within us. Severing that connection totally is unrealistic I think. We might never have physical contact, but for some of us, that connection will always remain (and in some ways we can look at the beauty that was and be grateful for having had that time together).

I don't know if being able to connect with someone else is what is needed to detach..perhaps I misunderstood what you meant.

In talking to others who have new relationships, some say that they still miss their spouse, the man who once was.....

I have really good friendships...but nothing compares to the intimacy of those 32 years. I miss that deeply but I think that my acceptance that he doesn't want me in his life (except on the periphery) and just acceptance that I am on my own (even though that is not what I want) ...it's not easy..I have to work on being ok with the ways things are....I stay in touch with other long time LBSers and it often comes up..life is good but it isn't what we would have wanted.

Recognizing that we are complicated beings and that many situations in our life contribute to how we respond, how we feel is the way through this.....knowing that we matter, that others love us is vital...but I don't think it can ever again be another person who satisfies that.

Sometimes after therapy sessions that are that intense it does require time to process, time to work through and yes maybe even more tears...and that's ok.

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« Last Edit: January 26, 2023, 07:49:09 AM by xyzcf »
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#17: January 26, 2023, 07:54:01 AM
Well, that sounds like a bit of an eye-opener session  :)

The only thing I’d suggest is trying to a bit kinder in the language you use in talking to yourself about yourself? I have a friend - daughter of alcoholic parents long since passed - who hates conflict of any kind. And sometimes calls herself weak or foolish bc of it. But not so long ago, she briefly described a memory from when she was about 9 - one that involved two drunk parents, her father trying to strangle her mother and knocking her across the room into the budgerigar cage when she tried to pull him off. And the most vivid bit of her recollection almost 60 years later was how frightened she was that her pet budgie was hurt….

Doesn’t it make such a lot of sense that conflict would be a life threatening thing in that little one’s head? Just bc mindsets that served us as small humans, that might even have helped us survive, are no longer so useful to us as grown ups doesn’t make us messed up or stupid or foolish….just works in progress imho. And those inner children of ours deserve kind words even more perhaps
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« Last Edit: January 26, 2023, 07:55:17 AM by Treasur »
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#18: January 27, 2023, 12:55:50 AM
Ah yes. Good old Maslow....

It can become quite an eye-opener when it is laid out in such simple terms as a pyramid. But, the first step was in the realization that you DO have the ability for connection and joy WITHIN you, independent of the Mid-Lifer. Now the challenge is to access it and use it for your own good and benefit....

Hard work but SO well worth it.

Hats off to you!
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#19: January 27, 2023, 09:05:48 AM
When they say MLC can give you whiplash they are not kidding.....
So, he (as XYZ called it) send another mail saying that he is overwhelmed and busy at the moment but still would love to go on a date but it might be several weeks and if I could not wait it's ok if I move on (what the heck and where has he been for almost 6 years when he did not care if I moved on or not...lol). He said he has no idea where his head or heart is because he is just worried about the property but he would still like to see me. He said he has to warn me though that he is currently drinking heavily on a daily basis and that maybe I should just run.

So I suggested the middle of March after he retires and he said that sounded good if he were to make it. I asked ....'make it'...as in not showing up or as in dying.....he said the stress might kill him. My reply was that I hope he does not die but if he did I want him to know that I think he is a wonderful human and that I never stopped loving him. To which he replied: I will always love you.

I did not ask about OW - as to me she does not matter - what was odd about this exchange was that for one he considered me moving on and that he volunteered the drinking situation that he wanted me to be aware of before agreeing to wait and that it was the third time him 'wanting' to take me out.....

A positive exchange I thought - the drinking does scare me because a) his health and b) I never liked him drunk drunk....but I am willing to see what happens if we actually do go out. I have no intentions of talking about 'us' unless he brings it up but just have a nice evening out with light hearted conversation.

I felt good and calm....until this morning.....because my mind and those darn pesky monkeys........what if he meant the 'I will always love you' as a platonic not wanting to be mean expression.... so, now the monkeys are roaming freely in my head and what was a calm good exchange has me tore up as much as a disappointment would have.

Is it normal that good or bad exchanges just get those monkeys stirred up ? I am sure I am overthinking it way too much and I am hoping to simmer back down by this evening......
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#20: January 27, 2023, 11:01:09 AM
Quote
And he did send another email yesterday apologizing again and asking if I wanted to meet for dinner. I said yes and send him my available days and zero response.....what the heck......why ask and then zone out.............dangit....I will NEVER NEVER NEVER understand it and I know...just stop trying, but when can we treat them like normal people again......arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
I would suggest it is a pattern. Just like Lucy removing the ball when Charlie goes to kick it  ::)
And, as xyzcf says, you have a few choices. Accept the pattern of words and no action so change your expectations; say yes if you want to but expect nothing other than being pleasantly surprised if he follows through. Do nothing and if he initiates contact again, be a bit matter of fact blunt that you’re not sure you can be bothered to agree to anything until/unless he can show you that he will actually follow through. Or decide to stop playing, pick up your ball, ignore him and go play with other people.
Or the other option I forgot to add of looping around the same pattern.....

I hope you can see - or are starting to see - that this sounds much the same pattern as the last Jan date he ‘forgot’? Please understand that I don’t say this to criticise or judge you, only to support the work you are already doing with your IC. Sometimes the universe whispers, sometimes it sends little notes, sometimes it keeps clonking us on the head until we get it lol.....and we get it when we are ready to change the patterns and usually not a moment before imho  :)

Do you want to break the pattern, do you think? What is the pattern YOU see? And what do you think you gain from playing your part in this pattern as it is? (Question for your reflection, no need to answer here  :) ) bc usually, we human creatures have reasons for doing what we do repeatedly even if they are a bit squirmy or messy?

And, given all of that, how do you think you might view this March arrangement differently that could chip away at the pattern in a way that feels right for you?
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Re: TRUST IN WHAT MAY OR MAY NOT COME
#21: January 29, 2023, 09:55:16 AM
Schratz, cycles are the essiest thing in the world to repeat, which unfortunately is also why things never change.  The cycle is what you know and also what is most comfortable for you.  It's the path of least resistance.  Comfort zones do not yield growth, nor your case will it promote the healing you say you want.  If you truly want to break the cycle, you need to start employing a different approach.
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#22: January 29, 2023, 11:20:16 AM
Quote
Is it normal that good or bad exchanges just get those monkeys stirred up ? I am sure I am overthinking it way too much and I am hoping to simmer back down by this evening......

For some of us, especially those of us whose marriages were happy ones, there are connections that will always be there. That is true really of any relationships that we have had in life...those connections do not disappear because we tell them to.

So "normal" is really how his contact affects you. I have found that I learned to not be so rattled by his contact, even to the point of being able to spend time with him and quite enjoy that time, enjoy the family time especially....and this has come about because of my choice to let him be part of our family.

I do believe he will continue to contact you. You come to HS to write about these contacts and how they affect you. You are very aware that you would like to feel more at peace. The thing I found most helpful was being able to express how I felt to supportive people..I did not find helpful being told that I must change my "patterns" by others who are not walking on my pathway.

From what I read, you still love your husband and as I have said, love is a complicated thing. You know the whole concept of the lighthouse...perhaps he reaches out to you in some type of need of his, something he cannot explain, but something he knows that you are there for him.

It's a very confusing thing for the MLCer, to have these opposite feelings about us...just as it is confusing to us when they contact us and tell us things and then disappear.....

You can't really control the times he reaches out to you..well I guess you could if you never look at his text messages or respond back...but either way you will still know that he contacted you.

Processing by coming here, thinking how you can shift your reaction so it doesn't cause you pain  are helpful...being told over and over again that your reactions "do not yield growth", I find really disturbing from a community that should feel safe and supportive.

You will get their Schartz, think back to a couple of years ago, you have grown through this mess, we all do in our own time. You are engaged in therapy, you have stopped your binge eating, you are addressing your own FOO issues..I say BRAVO!
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#23: January 29, 2023, 12:50:02 PM
Sensitive to what XYZ has said, I hope my observations aren't received as unsupportive, but ---- your H sounds rather full of self-pity (and you sound great, btw). What I read  from him via your last post is - I can't meet up because I am so 'overwhelmed', but don't worry about me if you want to move on, I'll just drink/worry myself to death. Reminds me a bit of the trope scene in films where a group of people are traveling through hard terrain, like a jungle, or a mountainscape, and one person becomes stricken and is unable to continue. Lying there, against a tree/rock they say 'you go  on without me! I will only slow you down'. Of course, they don't want to be left, and neither does your H. But it doesn't sound like he's healed himself yet, IMO - he's not taking any responsibility for himself at all.

I am new to all this, but I do get the monkey brain thing. For me it's because there's so much contradiction, and lots of dramatic words that don't seem to add up to any sort of action or change (I see this on the forum, as well as in my own sitch). It's hard to know what to think and that sets off the hamster in the wheel (to mix up our animal metaphors). A practical suggestion about the next date, if you decide to grant him an audience :)  is that you could perhaps pick somewhere you would like to go anyway, like an afternoon matinee for a film you want to see, or a theatre performance (you get the idea!) and if he shows up, great, you will have this shared activity to discuss and make new memories from. And if not, well you get to do something nice and not waste the day.
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« Last Edit: January 29, 2023, 12:53:09 PM by KayDee »

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#24: January 30, 2023, 06:37:08 AM
Treasure….I always appreciate your views and input and never look at it as criticism or being judged. It is what makes this forum so valuable to me… it is important to me to get non involved, intelligent and caring people to tell me how they see things that I would not necessarily see myself. So I appreciate all of your comments and always have.

The pattern I see is him continuously reaching out for whatever reasons and me always responding and thus verifying that I am still here and still connected. He then is content and muddles through while all my flying monkeys get released……I know the universe has been trying to teach me to just let things happen and unfold naturally ….but the child that grew up in Chaos and only survived by reading every emotion and intent in others does not have faith that she will be able to handle any situation that occurs. So she still tries to figure out the whys and the what ifs …it gives her a false sense of control and thus false safety.

What do I gain from following his patterns……..I gain hope…..false hope? Probably…..but that hope is truly the only thing that still gets me up in the mornings

Beyond….thank you for your view…..and yes, I agree that unhealthy cycles should be broken…I am not sure though that I agree that his cycles are comfortable to me……I do want to heal and I think a lot of healing is from childhood wounds that will just take time to overcome.  May I ask what approach you would take that is different ? I am always open to suggestions.

XY….thank you for your support. This forum and being able to process all these complicated feelings in writing has truly been such a blessing. Have I came along much….I think so……you are right……if I do look back I have at least reached a point now where I know these issues are mine to work on and that is my expectations and my reactions to contact that causes me pain and not the contact itself. I agree….love is complicated …. If it is true love…..because I want him to be happy…..and he just is not happy at this point….he has not realized that the reason for happiness lies within him….he still blames outside sources i.e. work, property, etc as the cause of his stress and unhappiness. I am not sure he will ever be able to look inward as long as he uses alcohol as his tool to handle life. In his own words….HE DOESN’T KNOW $h!teE ABOUT $h!teE WHAT IS GOING ON IN HIS HEAD OR HEART   

Kay – thank you and you are right…it is all about him and his situation…..and it is self pity and no he has not healed himself at all yet. I do like your suggestion to take myself on that date if he is a no show.
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#25: January 30, 2023, 07:18:11 AM
Quote
I know the universe has been trying to teach me to just let things happen and unfold naturally ….but the child that grew up in Chaos and only survived by reading every emotion and intent in others does not have faith that she will be able to handle any situation that occurs.

Trauma does that to us. Our world that we loved was shattered and yours perhaps more than once by the chaos in your childhood. We then switch onto "high alert" and things take on a much bigger meaning then they should perhaps.

I may have mentioned this before, the amygdala, the reptilian part of the brain that recognizes danger doesn't distinguish between the severity of the danger....so a lion with it's mouth open ready to bite you elicits the same response as your partner eating his dinner with his mouth open.....there are so many things I imagine when my husband contacts me or I hear something about him....most of the time they are not real or true. The monkey brain thinking is a typical response. So learning how to still the mind can be really helpful.

Often contact catches me off guard, so it is practice for me to take a deep breath, release all the tension I start to feel in my body and be still...also understanding that even with the best of my analysis, I don't really know what he's thinking. And then, the hard part perhaps, letting it go. As you said "allow the universe to just let things happen and unfold naturally ".

You are doing a lot of introspective thinking....like you, at some point I was "stuck" and our bodies and minds do not want to stay stuck forever. The insight you are gaining in the work you are doing is moving you forward, both from your past childhood and the destruction of your marriage.

Quote
What do I gain from following his patterns……..I gain hope…..false hope? Probably…..but that hope is truly the only thing that still gets me up in the mornings

This struck me. I had to feel alive again, I had to find meaning and purpose without being a part of "US". It's not perfect and often I have "dreams" at night and I never wake up without thinking about him. I don't have any control over my dreams or my subconscious. I can only recognize that grief and loss have no timetable and then I am grateful for what is.

I smile at things I never would have noticed before. I am awed by people's kindness. I see beauty around me but am also very affected by the state of the world...perhaps it is my age......I have "learned" that I am not the one in control. Yes, we have control over some aspects of life but I am a fool to think that I can forecast what shall be in the future.

So the hope that I hold onto is important to me. It can be a part of your being without being destructive. It can also be a thing of beauty....because your husband, in his mess which is none of your doing, feels drawn to reach out to you...and some would say he doesn't deserve it, that it harms you, that you should not respond to him but that is not who you are.

So you figure out, who am I and how do I wish to live my life? When you know this, when you decide what is right for you concerning contact with him, you may find that you set yourself free from the responses that send you swirling. We get there in different ways.

The universe does respond...and send us thoughts and messages...and after reading your message and contemplating how does one reach a place of peace in all this, this poem came onto my facebook feed..and I smiled because it sums up for me how I decided to live with the love I still feel for this man. It's different for all of us, but this is truly how I live in peace.

A New Way To Love


The Ego said:

I don’t like this one. I don’t like that one. This one hurt me. This one betrayed me. This one took from me and never gave back. But I don’t want to hate them, as hatred suffocates me after a while. What do I do?

The soul replied:

Then find a new way to love them. Love them from afar. Love them by wishing them well. Love them by understanding it is the weakness of their soul. Love them by understanding it is their pain and fear. Love them where they are. And love them by asking for God’s love, strength and wisdom to reach their soul.

Ricka Rana
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#26: January 31, 2023, 01:01:00 AM
Not necessarily related to MLC, but when I'm around a toxic person I wish them well, well away from me.

That helps me put a positive spin on it while also acknowledging that it's not the type of person I would prefer or choose to interact with.
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#27: January 31, 2023, 02:07:59 AM
Quote
The pattern I see is him continuously reaching out for whatever reasons and me always responding and thus verifying that I am still here and still connected. He then is content and muddles through while all my flying monkeys get released……I know the universe has been trying to teach me to just let things happen and unfold naturally ….but the child that grew up in Chaos and only survived by reading every emotion and intent in others does not have faith that she will be able to handle any situation that occurs. So she still tries to figure out the whys and the what ifs …it gives her a false sense of control and thus false safety.

What do I gain from following his patterns……..I gain hope…..false hope? Probably…..but that hope is truly the only thing that still gets me up in the mornings

Well, that sounds like a pretty solid bit of self-reflection, my friend. Lots of work in progress going on in your noggin and with your IC. Do be kind to yourself though....insight is necessary but not sufficient to adapt some of our hard-wired stuff or trauma residue stuff imho....that’s more of a step by step, trial and error kind of game when we are ready to unpick bits. And it’s not easy so we fall over, get up, fall over. Which can make us a bit vulnerable to beating ourselves up for not having ‘escaped with one mighty bound’ lol. But it’s just not how this stuff works, is it? I found it helpful to think of myself as doing invisible brain surgery lol, trying out creating new feedback loops for my poor little amygdala to chew on....much easier to respect that this sounds like it might take some time and involve some ups and downs  :)

Both as a coach, and as an LBS, I learned that each of us can only start from where we are. Which is why our own assessment of where we are, and the language we use with ourselves about it, matters. But of course, that assessment doesn’t always look so pretty, does it? And our brains naturally can try to pull us back into the past or forward into trying to game out an unknown future. Which is even more unknown if it is contingent on the mysteries of someone else’s head  ::) I found/find it helpful to downsize my efforts to the day sometimes....to keep asking myself how I am investing today in the kind of future I want for myself. And what choices I have in the day.

I’m not going to get drawn into some of xyzcf’s obviously heartfelt perspective on how MLCers think or love or lighthouses or connection bc each of us reaches our own conclusions on how to live that stuff out imho. Or hope bc tbh I think that evolves and the focus moves around and is different for different people too. I’m just going to focus on the pattern bc you say you don’t find how it makes you feel helpful right now. (And if my memory serves, I think you posted something years back about seeing some kind of pop up, go quiet for a few months pattern with him, so it’s not new and you’re.not imagining it  :) ) i’m pretty confident that xyzcf is right when she says that him doing this meets some need in him and that, all other things being equal, he will probably carry on doing it. (I think of your h as the Tomato Man - was it him that left tomatoes on your desk at work.) And that you are not responsible for that or in control of it. (Can’t recall if you are legally divorced, forgive me, or if there are still practical outstanding links between you?)

So, let’s assume that he is going to carry on with the same pattern of pop up and disappear for a few months, with a side order of drunken self pity, bc it meets some need in him. And remind ourselves that this is a) not about you, but him and b) that just bc someone needs something from us does not mean we have an obligation to provide it and c) it’s not really love, not grown up healthy reciprocal love as such imho, but some kind of need/attachment porridge which we can have compassion for but still not need to meet if that makes sense.

But let’s assume for the moment that he is going to carry on doing that for his own reasons. And let’s assume that, just as xyzcf says, some of your own feelings don’t magically disappear just bc/if you tell them to. Even if you wag your finger at them lol. That does not mean you are out of choices in HOW you play with the pattern even if you are not ready or willing to step away from it entirely. I get the sense - but could be wrong? - that what bothers you most is that an arrangement is made, it kicks off an extended period of monkey braining and hopeful expectation in you that you don’t like, followed by a period of kicking yourself and a bit of frustrated despair when that’s not how it goes? Is that it? If so, looking at it in smaller chunks with your IC might help you consider some of the bits that ARE more in your control....the length of time between a and b for instance, or how to adapt your expectations slightly or how to adapt how much you control. I really liked KayDee’s suggestion about setting a different context...a ‘i’m going to be here doing an enjoyable x thing, you can join me or not as you wish’. I also wondered if the timescale could be more in your control eg less of a ‘you call me in March’ and more of a ‘i’ll call you in March to see if we can sort something out’ thing. Would that make it easier to put the monkeys down for a couple of months, idk? But these kinds of experiments are easier imho to do with professional support until we get the hang of it and they feel smaller and more do-able for us......you sound as if you have done well in working with your IC so far and you should pat yourself on the back for that alone  :).....and it’s a good resource to help you experiment imho. Plus the more you see it as an experiment, the less it will probably feel like some pass/fail type situation everytime it happens.

One of the great gifts of following along with other’s stories here over time is seeing the progress folks make and how they evolve out of the worst dark days. Maybe it is sometimes easier to see that progress in others than feel it in ourselves......but we do see your progress, my friend, and we are all cheering you on for every single bit of it.
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#28: February 02, 2023, 08:01:00 AM
Once again - great input and plenty of food for thought for me to work through.
As always - these comments truly help me so much in examining and learning and evaluating my own thoughts and patterns on my way to healing.

Before replying and pondering...I watched a video yesterday where a therapist said to find your true self...close your eyes and put all your labels i.e. your name, age, anything you believe in your hands and then whatever is left that is your true self...which should be nothing but self love, kindness, and joy just like a newborn baby without any beliefs filtered into it yet.
Of course some times I am very reserved at what works that just sounds too simple....lol....I tried this exercise and it actually felt immensely calming...to just close your eyes and just be you...anyway - I just thought I'd share.

XY:
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So the hope that I hold onto is important to me. It can be a part of your being without being destructive.

That is so beautifully said......and that is something I am hoping to work on. I cannot let go of hope but maybe I can reframe this hope into existing but not being destructive and not attaching expectations. You are right, he might not deserve me to respond and it might harm me to respond, but....to not respond would be against who I am and who I want to be. No, I do not always respond if there is no response necessary but I have always been there for him (and he has always responded to me) and I do want him to see me as a safe place regardless of what may or may not be down the road.

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So you figure out, who am I and how do I wish to live my life?

That is what I told my therapist my goal is. To figure out who I am after we take away all the trauma and how I wish to live my life.

I did tell her that before each session I contemplate just leaving...getting back in my car and just going home rather than delving into difficult questions and answers.....but.....I feel that this is a time in my life where I must repair my Self to find self love for the remainder of my years.

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Then find a new way to love them. Love them from afar. Love them by wishing them well. Love them by understanding it is the weakness of their soul. Love them by understanding it is their pain and fear.

I cannot tell you how many times I have read those lines and they are beautiful and peaceful and amazing....thank you so much for sharing that poem.

Reinvent:
Thank you for suggestion of wishing them well away......I thought about that, and with most people I do not let toxic people ruining my peace, but I never viewed my MLC as toxic per se. I view him as a broken hurt child that is just lost ....and while I might not be able to influence this child into repairing itself, I can be there and of comfort to the child. It might be counterproductive for my own healing, but it is important to me personally to be there for the people I love and I will always love him in some way, shape or form.

Treasure......
Wow....so much to think through and figure out.

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the language we use with ourselves about it, matters

Since you mentioned that in a previous response I have been vigilant almost in which words I use to myself and you are right that I have not been kind when speaking of myself...I must remember that I might be speaking to that inner child and I would never use words like failure, pathetic, etc to her....thank you for that reminder.....and something that I need to keep working on.

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how I am investing today in the kind of future I want for myself. And what choices I have in the day.

Another brilliant phrase and one that I am also trying to work on (no wonder all this 'work' has me exhausted...lol) - when I get into these monkeys or spirals throughout the day I stop and ask....ok....is there something =you can do about it...if the answer is no...let it go...if the answer is yes...what can I do about it today.

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I think of your h as the Tomato Man - was it him that left tomatoes on your desk at work

That made me truly laugh out loud...I forgot about that, but yes, that was him......Tomato Man..... ;D ;D ;D

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that what bothers you most is that an arrangement is made, it kicks off an extended period of monkey braining and hopeful expectation in you that you don’t like, followed by a period of kicking yourself and a bit of frustrated despair when that’s not how it goes? Is that it?

...amazing how you can put it in a nutshell but that is exactly how it is.....I realize I have the choice to not engage in his contacts and I realize it is an attachment issue that he feels and that I am not responsible for, but again....to not respond would not be me...what bothers me is that my monkeys immediatly drink the hope drug and start seeing butterflies and unicorns and then come crashing down like drunk elephants when reality does not work out that way.  I had talked about it with my IC and she says..it is that pattern that I was used to in my childhood....the high and the low and the always thinking of ways to gain parental acceptance and love and then not achieving it.....and starting from scratch again.....so, it is on the horizon to work through but can take some time

For now, he has given me date, time and place for dinner in March and I am reigning in all these monkeys and keep telling myself that until then I must not think about it but use this time to work on me. So, every time he pops in my head, I say....Stop....Focus on you for 6 weeks ......

The last email about the March date he ended with "Kisses"......in 5 1/2 years he never said that and chances are he was already drunk when he wrote it, but it is new...

To take my mind off I have plans to spend a girls weekend with D the middle of the month and already have a Spa day layed out for us to enjoy and get pampered. Any time I get to spend with D boosts my mood and we always have such a great time. I am also planning a weekend to see my best friend in another state that I have not seen in years and we need to catch up in person. Plus with spring coming I will be able to spend time outdoors again and watching nature always feels so grounding to me. Looking forward to that.

Thank you again for all the wonderful thoughts and reflections you always deliver that help me so much. I do appreciate and value you more than I can put into words.

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#29: February 02, 2023, 08:49:57 AM
My goodness me, you are doing so well. It is hard work though, isn’t it, so glad you have some things planned that top up your reservoir. Thank you for sharing the labels exercise - I shall try that next time I need it!
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#30: February 04, 2023, 04:47:09 AM
Quote
but I never viewed my MLC as toxic per se. I view him as a broken hurt child that is just lost ....and while I might not be able to influence this child into repairing itself, I can be there and of comfort to the child.

Apologies, Schratz66, wishing the toxic person well, well away from me, was a general statement and not necessarily about MLC.

Sharing that way of thinking about toxic people was more about those people some  encounter at work or other places. Xyzcf's peom that included language about wishing them well reminded me of adding that extra part of "well away from me" that can be applied in some situations in life.
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#31: February 04, 2023, 06:32:42 AM
There has been a great deal of introspection and hard work going on  :) A fine balance of discovering who you are and who you want to be, understanding why you respond in certain ways, bravery for not running away from therapy, plans with your daughter and a spa visit (I get my daughter, high tea, spa weekend in May when I visit her for mother's day)....and a technique to work with to unwind your beliefs about yourself...I would say a pretty good week.

Progress forward, inch by inch and sometimes we slip back. My therapist suggested that my journey is like a slinky and that there will be times I would feel like I had lost progress and I'd unroll backwards...but.....I would never go back as far as I had been.....and then I'd reverse the direction and start moving forward again.

The "kisses" he sends......what are we supposed to make of this????  It's so bizarre but then so much of what they do is bizarre....and perhaps we think too much about what those xx's mean...but still, they touch my heart when he uses them in texts or cards.....and I respond back in kind...why not? I have nothing to lose.

All this "thinking" is tiring. Do you do any yoga or meditation? I find yoga helps to clear everything from my head that has been swirling around and adding up making me sluggish.

Doing well Schratz!!
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#32: February 09, 2023, 06:31:13 AM
Thank you Reinventing and XYZ...

I used to do some yoga before hip surgery but I am not able to move quite the same yet but I do try some meditation some times.

I need to calm my mind so today I am just journaling to work through some stuff without reaching out to him.

Apparently one of the issues I need to work through is that I have anxious attachment style and he is an avoidant...and while I normally do not like labels .....I do have to admit that I am always anxious when I respond ....and then I think back to my childhood and it was the same because you never knew how my father would react to anything and so you kept trying and waiting......
So somehow I managed to survive this roller coaster for 5 1/2 years, I got off the floor and just kept going.....now having to wait 5 weeks is becoming torture....how did I manage 5 years...lol......probably because I had no choice but to somehow manage.
My mind and body right now is in such a high alert mode and I am terrified on all fronts. No, nothing has changed, except his more loving tone in his messages...he still immediately replies. I have not lost anything else, nothing is different and yet .....it almost feels like I will live or die in March....like getting a gun with 1 bullet and you don't know which chamber it is in......
I do not want to let him know that I am so fragile and scared because it is my issue and not his. Logically I am fully aware that I will be okay either way....but the 'what if'  are monkey braining me to no end.
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#33: February 09, 2023, 07:27:31 AM
I am more convinced than ever that mind/body work done regularly is very helpful. The problem is there are lots of fitness centers with yoga classes but they don't watch each individual or help to modify poses to be comfortable. There are some other practices I like, restorative yoga and yoga nidra. In restorative yoga, you use blankets, straps, bolsters, pillows, blocks to relax into a comfortable posture. Yoga nidra, you just lie in a comfortable position and listen, trying not to fall asleep.You can find yoga nidra exercises on the internet..just listn to them for 20 min regularly and they will help to calm the nervous system.

There are also chair yoga classes that can be very helpful until you are able to do more movement style classes.
You may be able to find a yoga studio with a teacher who is qualified to use yoga therapeutically. Ok, off my yoga bandwagon..

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like getting a gun with 1 bullet and you don't know which chamber it is in......

this is a function of your amygdala, the reptilian part of the brain...developed to protect us, I have mentioned before it really doesn't know how to differentiate between the degree of a "threat"...so a lion with it's mouth opened ready to bite you arouses the same response as your partner eating dinner with his mouth open.....

It's being off balance by his actions that took me a very long time to work through and the fact that we do still care about them and would like them to come back into our lives....but there is no real ability to dialogue with them, to explain that setting a date in 5 weeks just doesn't work. It isn't what you want..because if he wanted to return, this probably isn't the way he would do it...however, who knows really what the process will be...I am continually astonished at how things work out.

The thing is, we don't get to speak our truth...we can only watch and witness what they do...well some might say we can speak up, but I don't think it is very helpful because unless he responded back with some feeling and understanding, then I am left upset again.....this is not the way it is with any other person in my life...it's just what I have learned as I navigated how I would relate to him.....

I think you have your daughter's girl's weekend coming up....enjoy that time with her!
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« Last Edit: February 09, 2023, 07:30:51 AM by xyzcf »
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

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" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

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#34: February 09, 2023, 07:31:21 AM
Brave of you, 66, to be so honest here about that feeling.
I remember it (although I rarely experience it now) and I understand how absolutely awful a feeling it is.
Wise of you too to get that this is a ‘you’ thing not a ‘him’ thing even if he/the situation acts as a trigger.

Have you read ‘The Body Keeps the Score’ by Bessel van der Kolk? (There are also some YouTube videos around of him talking about his work if big reading is tricky)
The heart of his point is that we don’t experience trauma in our heads as we might think we do but in our bodies. (And it doesn’t matter what or when the trauma is, your body does it’s thing anyway - what matters are the symptoms you experience bc they tell you that your nervous system is on high alert) I used to call it the difference between fear and Fear.....if you’ve felt it, you get it, right? Regardless of what your head says, part of your brain thinks you are living surrounded by tigers and it sends signals to your body. And your body doesn’t know any different so it’s as real to your body as if there were real tigers. Xyzcf and me are on the same page I think with our experience of something similar.

Why does this matter? Bc the way in is also the way out.
You need to learn to teach your body to feel safe, to create a different feedback loop. The quickest way I found to do it is through something called box breathing https://www.webmd.com/balance/what-is-box-breathing, but there are other things like slow yoga, some kinds of exercise and some kinds of NLP  etc that help. Have you talked to your therapist about some tips and tricks?

PS it’s ok to start really small....the Fear is in the moment and so is the way to turn the dial down....we all learn in little baby steps how to do what works for us

PPS when I was really in the long grass, I could not do meditation or yoga. Not sure I can describe it but being physically still was too much for me at the time and silence was too noisy if that makes sense.  I could later but not for a while. Saw this article and thought it might be helpful for you or others https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2023/feb/09/the-stress-secret-12-ways-to-meditate-without-actually-meditating
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« Last Edit: February 09, 2023, 07:42:22 AM by Treasur »
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#35: February 13, 2023, 07:18:48 AM
Oh my goodness....XY and Treasure....you truly are my life vest right at this time.

And I agree with both of you that the mind and the body are so closely aligned. I could not feel any less terrified if it was a room full of tigers and yet I know this is only in my mind but my mind truly thinks that my life is in danger. And while it is not my actual life - it is my sanity and my peace and these days I am really really feeling crazy...thankfully I am leaving tomorrow for my daughters and once I am back I have a therapy session lined up.

Treasu...I will check out the book and the box breathing and XY - thank you for the different Yoga to look into...I really appreciate it.

I have been thinking of Treasur almost daily and remind myself to not use negative words when talking about myself. Which is hard because I truly feel like there is something wrong with me for letting one person out of a billion control my mind and emotions like that. But, there is nothing wrong with me, it is just that it is the old child hood patterns popping up and I am simply a frightened little bird that has no idea if that human is approaching is dangerous or if it will get rescued. And just as I type this word 'rescued' ...I wonder why am I using that word......because that is truly how I feel....like I need rescued....except I know that only I can rescue myself and I cannot look at a drowning person to be my rescuer.

Unfortunately since he has been so easy to message with - I did too much of it...nothing lengthy or intricate because I know he still can only digest small words and small messages but I reached out way too much to somehow calm me down. He did reply for most of it and he tried to be patient, but the truth is...he cannot help me feel calmer or more in control......so today I contacted my physician to see if we can switch up my anti depressant to something else or do an add on to top the crying and the obsessing and the feeling crazy. I also promised myself to not reach out again. If he remembers March great and if he does not I will not remind him. If I have to sit on my hands to not type, I will do that......

I started EFT tapping again....and I force myself out into nature as that always calms me down and amazes me how nature functions without any fear, concerns or overthinking by just being. A bird is just a bird doing what birds do...there is no overthinking, there is no need for validation, there is no rush for anything - they just are until they aren't.

This is the most disheveled and out of control I have felt in a long, long time....probably since the first few months after BD......I need to put more focus on GAL again - even though right now being around others seems so exhausting to me

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#36: February 14, 2023, 07:10:21 AM
Just needing to journal .....I just realized that if he was drowning and I'd swim out to save him, I would rather drown with him than let him go and save myself. And that right there is the scariest thing I ever admitted to myself. I do not want o harm myself and I will not do that to my D, but I am not sure life without him in it is worth it. These last couple of weeks with frequent contact just made that very apparent to me and I know it is my issues and they have always been there. Truly the only time I ever enjoyed life was with him. I have done everything one is supposed to....exercise, get on meds, therapy, learn about child hood trauma, try to heal the inner child, try to be in the present only, do a gratitude journal each day, meditate, try new things...I have tried it all ....I do not want him to have this much power over me. I surrendered to God on my knees and begged him for help and I am not sure he hears me.

Sorry - this is just a very emotional journal entry and I will be ok....
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#37: February 14, 2023, 07:40:36 AM
I know that the time that we had together was a really wonderful time of my life. Together, we were a great team, on the same page, loved many of the same activities and I felt safe and totally loved by him. That time of my life is over now.

A couple of years ago, when I felt stuck, I was not able to "feel" joy. I knew what joy felt like but I couldn't feel it and fortunately a very good therapist and I worked at finding me again...many many sessions and over a period of about 1 1/2 years.....

I do have contact with him. I just watched Superbowl with him and we'll be spending a week with our daughter together soon. I am amazed at how we still make a "good team"......how comfortable I am and yes, how I feel more normal when we are together than any other time.......but he wants something different.....he has a complete life as do I....so I have come to a place of peace.

I don't have the childhood issues that many have, the only trauma in my life was the breakup of our marriage....and I understand that although it was a wonderful time of my life...that time is over.....

I do not know what will break through for you...perhaps getting a change in medications will help. You sound very much in a state of fight/flight..his contact is shaking you up a great deal and you can feel it and it is taking it's toil on you.

Regardless of how much we loved them, or how happy they made us.....we are more important than any one person in our lives. Even if we feel "sadness"....finding the parts in us that feel "joy" will bring us back to a place of ease....at least it did for me.

Quote
I surrendered to God on my knees and begged him for help and I am not sure he hears me.

God hears us Schwartz. Of that I am 100% certain. The problem is that others may not hear God or deny what God is asking of them...

You have been feeling shaky for quite some time now, his contact has done something that doesn't feel very good....perhaps getting to the root of why will help you eventually break loose, rediscovering Schwartz and all the good that is within you.

Keep writing it out. Keep looking for what helps to relieve those horrible feelings, even for just a few minutes at a time..those minutes add up to hours and the hours add up to days.

I hope it happens for you..the freedom to be ok, whether you know about him or not, whether he contacts you are not..letting go of what once was and becoming aware of what is and can be.
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« Last Edit: February 14, 2023, 07:42:30 AM by xyzcf »
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#38: February 14, 2023, 08:17:42 AM
Just needing to journal .....I just realized that if he was drowning and I'd swim out to save him, I would rather drown with him than let him go and save myself. And that right there is the scariest thing I ever admitted to myself. I do not want o harm myself and I will not do that to my D, but I am not sure life without him in it is worth it. These last couple of weeks with frequent contact just made that very apparent to me and I know it is my issues and they have always been there. Truly the only time I ever enjoyed life was with him. I have done everything one is supposed to....exercise, get on meds, therapy, learn about child hood trauma, try to heal the inner child, try to be in the present only, do a gratitude journal each day, meditate, try new things...I have tried it all ....I do not want him to have this much power over me. I surrendered to God on my knees and begged him for help and I am not sure he hears me.

Sorry - this is just a very emotional journal entry and I will be ok....

We know you will be. We believe in you.

At the same time, just as xyzcf said, I want you to be open-minded to the possibility that you may not always feel how you feel now. I’m not saying you won’t or even asking you to believe that you won’t....just to try to accept that you don’t know yet. And that this means you have to stick around for longer to see if you might.

Like xyzcf said, I too had a very long time of being unable to feel much, certainly Joy was absent. And tbh most things hurt; it felt almost impossible to take pleasure in anything much without my three most loved ones. It wasn’t that I wanted to die exactly....it was more that I didn’t care much if I did or not....and I lived with that for quite a few years. An online friend asked me to do the same as I am asking you....to accept that I didn’t know yet. Imho that is an act of deep faith, real faith, to trust that it might feel different when there is no way of knowing for sure that it will.

I remember recently hearing a psychiatrist say that she feels the opposite of depression is not happiness, it is vitality. Literally, one’s life force returning. And that seems to happen in little whispers more than big shouts imho. Or at least that was my experience. Keep doing what you are doing. And, if you are not sure what to do on any given day, do something that whispers life force to you.....watch children play, look at tiny bulbs breaking the soil, birds waking up, the smell of spring or candy floss or really good coffee, the sound of a snoring content dog or a purring cat. It doesn’t matter what it is....whatever feels like ‘life energy’ to you, do a few minutes of that.

And do not feel ashamed or alone....bc the only reason xyzcf and me are saying what we are saying is bc we have stumbled along in your shoes. We know how hard it is to walk hour by hour, day after day, in those shoes. So you can’t beat yourself up unless you are going to beat us up too  :) :) :)
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#39: March 06, 2023, 06:30:10 AM
Well, I had a fabulous time with D as always.....we watched a star is born and of course I cried like a baby because I did not realize that the main character was a raging alcoholic and it was too close to home because even my D said that it's him....and I am truly afraid that it will end similar for him.......after the much needed daughter time I went to my therapist and we had a good session on survival strategies that might no longer be useful to me and how to work on me to fill myself up with self love for him to no longer have that power over me. Of course all of this takes time....there is that word again.....sigh........

And while MLC never monstered - and I don't think he consciously is cruel but this stringing along for 6 years is pretty darn cruel, but then again I could not have been strung along if I was not a willing participant. And again, I am not someone that would allow anyone else to treat me this way and yet here I am.......

Rereading the few lines I just wrote....wow......I am basically blaming myself for allowing it to go on before blaming him for being $h!tety. I honestly would rather get mad at myself for not having enough self love rather than calling him out. So much work to be done...lol.....

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#40: March 06, 2023, 07:32:34 AM
Quote from: Schratz66
Rereading the few lines I just wrote....wow......I am basically blaming myself for allowing it to go on before blaming him for being $h!tety. I honestly would rather get mad at myself for not having enough self love rather than calling him out. So much work to be done...lol.....

Recognizing that is the first step to healing
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#41: March 06, 2023, 07:57:08 AM
In my mind there is no need to blame yourself for feeling the way you do. Healing takes as long as it takes. I was thinking of an example. When you burn yourself the process of healing is going to take a certain amount of time. And most likely you are left with a scar.
Things happen in life that hurt. This hurts more than anything I have ever experienced even still.
Again, blaming him… is that helpful? I do not think they purposefully string us along. They are in crisis and really do not have a clue what this has done to us. We are collateral damage to their crisis.
Have patience. And accept that this changes us and it is darn hard to “ recover” from. Not our fault. We can do everything “ right” and still hurt .
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#42: March 13, 2023, 06:35:10 AM
Well, the monkeys are flying......I have not contacted him since he said we'd meet March 16th to discuss us.....anxiety of course is running at an all time high. We did not discuss a time or place so one of us has to reach out and ask .....it is so tempting for me to reach out but I want him to make an effort and show me that he is really wanting to meet. But, I also know how scatter brained he is ....ugh.....

In the mean time breathing exercises and redirecting thoughts and telling myself he either will or he won't remember and that in itself will show me all I need to know. I know I am strong enough if he does not and I will not reach out and ask why like I did last time. He was so consistent in insisting he wanted to meet ...I need to know if he is still in that mindset and I need to give him the chance to show me.
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#43: March 13, 2023, 08:21:19 AM
Exactly. If you are always the one to initiate contact, he knows you are still in your stasis box, right where he left you and are still available.

By letting him make the contact, 1) you know he is at least some what serious (as serious as a swiss-cheese-brain can be, and 2) he begins to get the idea that you are no longer waiting and pining away from him in your rocking chair and crocheting lace doilies until he returns.

Schratz has a life to live.... Schratz is Freeeeeeeeee......

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#44: March 13, 2023, 08:49:39 AM
Thank you Ursa......I need some tough love to stick with this.....oh, how I wish schratz was freeeeeeeeeeee of all this crazyness....lol
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#45: March 13, 2023, 09:39:22 AM
I want to cheer on your courage and wisdom about not contacting him too.
Sounds easy to say, but we all understand how hard it can be to let go of old habits and give someone the opportunity to put their metaphorical money where their mouth is. Or not.

It is tempting in our navigation of the weirdness of MLC to almost forget what normal looks like, to slide perhaps from explanation to excuses about forgetfulness etc. So I want to remind you that in normal life people do not forget things that are priorities for them which they believe are important to remember if they do not want the consequences of forgetting. And whatever happens from here on, i’m sure you feel that you deserve a more normal life than you have had for a while....so it is wise to keep your hands off the levers and let the dice roll as they may to mix a metaphor. If you want a human who sees you as a priority and who can show up like a normal adult....and if he doesn’t again, it says nothing about you at all, just that he is not someone who is doing that. And it is rather a bare minimum requirement for having any kind of normal relationship of any kind as normal folks do.
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« Last Edit: March 13, 2023, 09:40:41 AM by Treasur »
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#46: March 13, 2023, 10:43:25 AM
Treasur....thank you so much...you really, really hit home with this one for me and I need all the validation I can get as the monkeys are on the trapeze.

In my mind (however convoluted it may be) it is absurd for me to keep making excuses for another adult. Sure, I would love to see him, but if I remind him or guilt him into it, then it really means nothing. It is the bare minimum and really not that much effort to ask if we are still on and when and where to meet.
He said all the right things, but will his actions match that ? I honestly have no idea and the next 3 days will be a nail biter for sure, but I have to stay strong.

If he does not reach out, I will not react and ask like I did last time. I will take it as a sign that nothing has changed and just keep on working on me.
In the real world, he should be appreciative that I even communicate with him at all and that I am willing to see him and it should not be me to beg for his company.

I should be the prize and not the other way around. I must stay strong and will sit on my hands if that is what it takes.

Thank you so much
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#47: March 13, 2023, 02:08:33 PM
Just knowing that the wise option is to not reach out doesn´t make it easier. Here´s a suggestion, if you make it through to 16th without reaching out first, already have in mind a treat for yourself perhaps a book or art supply that you´ve been pondering. By rewarding yourself for staying strong you are reinforcing your worth. And hey, if he falters, again, at least you´ve earned yourself something that you really wanted. Am rooting for you.
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#48: March 14, 2023, 01:26:02 AM
He said all the right things, but will his actions match that ? I honestly have no idea and the next 3 days will be a nail biter for sure, but I have to stay strong.



If he does not reach out, I will not react and ask like I did last time. I will take it as a sign that nothing has changed and just keep on working on me.
And if he DOES reach out (for once) it is NOT a sign that things have changed.... Consistent actions are what counts....

And regardless of whether he does or doesn't, you still keep working on you.... Here's your 2x4... <snort!>


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Re: TRUST IN WHAT MAY OR MAY NOT COME
#49: March 14, 2023, 06:52:18 AM
Just knowing that the wise option is to not reach out doesn´t make it easier. Here´s a suggestion, if you make it through to 16th without reaching out first, already have in mind a treat for yourself perhaps a book or art supply that you´ve been pondering. By rewarding yourself for staying strong you are reinforcing your worth. And hey, if he falters, again, at least you´ve earned yourself something that you really wanted. Am rooting for you.

Personally I'd be booking something lovely for myself to do on the 17th. Not sure what that means for you? Maybe a treatment, massage, wellness session. For me it would be a gig or a trip to a museum or film. That way you have something nice to look forward to whatever happens this week.
Or try and see someone you haven't seen for ages, who you love spending time with.
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#50: March 14, 2023, 07:03:25 AM
Just knowing that the wise option is to not reach out doesn´t make it easier. Here´s a suggestion, if you make it through to 16th without reaching out first, already have in mind a treat for yourself perhaps a book or art supply that you´ve been pondering. By rewarding yourself for staying strong you are reinforcing your worth. And hey, if he falters, again, at least you´ve earned yourself something that you really wanted. Am rooting for you.

Personally I'd be booking something lovely for myself to do on the 17th. Not sure what that means for you? Maybe a treatment, massage, wellness session. For me it would be a gig or a trip to a museum or film. That way you have something nice to look forward to whatever happens this week.
Or try and see someone you haven't seen for ages, who you love spending time with.

Sounds like a good idea to me too. I might even have a plan B for the 16th tbh.

We can all hear that your monkeys are jumping around a bit - the normal disadvantage of having something in the diary for a long time like this. What I will remind you is that some of it is the traumatised bit of your brain making this one date/‘date’ more significant than it is likely to be either way. Normal....but wearing on the system, right? Bc the most likely reality is that it will be nothing more than a small step......to something different if he’s a no show, to some kind of conversation if he shows. Nothing more than that....just a small step.
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#51: March 15, 2023, 10:18:32 AM
Thank you Ursa, For, Treasur and Biscuit.
Well, I had my hair and nails done, lost 30 pounds and had a new outfit ready. And then he canceled 😭😭😭
Saying he still wasn’t sure about anything
It was like BD all over again. He had sounded different, he had been consistent in wanting to see me and there being hope and then BAM!!
I feel like such a fool yet again for believing. I asked why he said all those things….why feed me hope…..why string me along. He had no answers. Who lets the same man destroy them twice?
That would be me. I can’t do it anymore. I can’t stop crying and wishing to not ever wake up.
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#52: March 15, 2023, 12:10:44 PM
I am truly sorry that this has upset you, again.

The thing is, he does not have any answers to why he is doing any of this. One day it might have seemed to him like a good idea, the next it didn’t ……..like Ursa always says, it is like trying to taste the color green trying to understand anything about them.

At some point, there was a change in me. An understanding, no longer did I believe he would come back. That was a realization that I could not force anything to happen….an acceptance that this was how this story unfolded.

You have a heart, feelings and love for a man that rejects you and that hurts. Nothing to blame yourself…..we just have some deep feelings for these men, these husbands, the times when we were so very happy….trying to resolve that within is really difficult.

You and you alone can decide whether you wish to respond to him in any future contact. Some people find it easier to distance themselves, to block them from our world and that might be the only way to heal.

Others will be able to figure out a way that contact doesn’t cause them so much pain…and then there is everything in between.

Be gentle with yourself, allow time to feel the grief that comes when we have this expectations that they are somehow waking up, and little by little, those feelings will not hurt quite so much.

I am sorry but it is a very typical MLC thing that he just did.
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#53: March 15, 2023, 05:25:53 PM
I’m so sorry S66- Just know that he tried. Some never try. Some
Never look back. Obviously he is questioning something, but he is still not sure. Still not confident and not ready. I have learned to take any contact as a positive. They don’t have to contact us or communicate. So, he didn’t fall through and you asked and he didn’t have answers. It tells you where you are. Maybe take a step back again and don’t communicate with him. Let him spin on this for a bit and wonder where you are for a change.
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#54: March 16, 2023, 12:36:05 AM
I’m sorry too, and hope that emotions and monkeys have settled down now.
As xyz said, it is predictably MLC-ish. Tedious, upsetting but predictable. At a simple level, he does not currently hold the answers to whatever it is you are seeking. Imho try not to monkey brain the reasons why too much or infer that it means x or y.....it means no more than his actions are a more reliable current guide than his words to what it is sensible to expect of him

So I hope you take your nice nails and hair out somewhere fun today instead. Bc there is a whole world of pretty places and interesting things and entertaining humans that does not require his presence.....

I’m not going to tell you what you might want to do differently now - I suspect if you listen to your own instincts and you are at the point when you really don’t want to feel this again, you’ll know what’s the best course for you.
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« Last Edit: March 16, 2023, 01:55:30 AM by Treasur »
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#55: March 16, 2023, 04:21:55 AM
So, Mr. Tomatohead is still deep in the tunnel and doesn't know what he wants at any particular moment.... Gee.... Imagine my surprise.  ::)

I am really sorry that you got the $#!tty end of the stick in this Schratz.

Be kind to yourself and realize that this, like the rest of his antics, have NOTHING to do with you and everything to do with his crisis.

Like XYZ noted, trying to figure them out at any one time is like trying to taste green... with your elbow.... and serves about as much purpose as having a screen door in a submarine... It could be that he is simply playing with you as he is under the impression that you are still on the line or maybe he has his head stuffed so far up his .... fog... that he is simply walking in the dark and has no clue.  Regardless, the results for you are the same.

Therefore, maybe the time has really come to drop the rope and let him drift on his own. Until now, he has been maintaining an orbit around you, sometimes closer, sometimes farther away but always bound to you. He knows/knew that you are there based on the contact. Maybe, hard as it is for you, it is time to let HIM initiate all contact and maybe, just maybe, YOU are the one who is busy, who has plans, who is getting on with your life.... Cut that rope, lower your gravitational attraction so he drifts off on his own.

This benefits you as well iin that you are no longer waiting on him to drop crumbs for you.... You are, instead, taking charge/control of your own life and growing forward independent of what Mr. Tomatohead chooses to do it the future. Then YOU get to decide and make your choices based on YOUR wants/needs and not on what crumbs fall from his table....

Maybe this is an opportune time for you to really finally let got of the rope?
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#56: March 16, 2023, 07:23:35 AM
Hello,

Quote
Well, I had my hair and nails done, lost 30 pounds and had a new outfit ready. And then he canceled 😭😭😭

I bet you looked amazing and it was all his loss. From now on, lose the weight, do the nails, and wear the outfits on how all of it makes you feel. Sorry to break this to you, but your H is a potato and you are putting too much hope, faith, and energy into a potato.

Quote
Therefore, maybe the time has really come to drop the rope and let him drift on his own. Until now, he has been maintaining an orbit around you, sometimes closer, sometimes farther away but always bound to you. He knows/knew that you are there based on the contact.

Perfect point. You've got to let the potato go. After all, you can only boil, bake or fry the thing. Find something else on the menu of your life to focus your attention on. I know he calls you, "Hey, I'm a potato, I go great with any dish." But really? He's still just a potato. A side dish. You are the main course. People pair fine wines with a dish like you. Nobody pairs a wine with a potato, not even a beer.

As long as your H acts like a potato, treat him like a potato. If he wants to be with the main dish, he better up his act and demonstrates he deserves to be with you. Ignore him and live for you. Continue to do things that make you feel alive.

Have a great day,

((((Ready)))
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#57: March 16, 2023, 11:10:27 AM
Thank you Xy, Mad, Ursa, Treasur and Ready. I do appreciate you all rallying around me.

And of course all of you are right and your words of comfort and wisdom are much appreciated.

I thought I would be okay regardless if he showed or canceled but who am I kidding. I was convinced that after almost 6 years this was the final move to come out of it and start seeing the light. In my dream world I had it all figured out and was ready.....until reality hit and it hit hard and I am not sure I have enough strength left to get back up and dust myself off. The last 48 hours have been no sleep, no eating and sobbing. Will that change anything ? Of course not.
He is a potato and drops crumbs every now and then and I pick them up feeling grateful for getting anything. It does not help that when we lived in South America my father ordered his favorite Haribo Gummibears and would not share them. My brother and I would fight over who would get the empty bag to sniff. And that is what this feels like....I am so happy and grateful for any crumb he drops when in reality I should be holding my head up high and demanding better for myself.
If I give up hope, it feels like I give up on myself and on life. None of this is rational or makes any sense. I am a strong, capable, independent woman except when it comes to this man. One man, a single man, a man that has left 6 years ago and yet he still gets to hold such power over every single day of my life. A non present, emotionally immature, cruel man gets to decide how I feel about myself and what kind of day I have. It truly is insanity at its finest and I should be madder than a wet hen. I have read so many stories here, all the recommendations, the blogs, the books - I have read the books about codependency, about abandonment, about finding self love - I could teach about all of it, but I cannot seem to apply it to myself. It's like it is not getting through to the heart of the matter.
 
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#58: March 16, 2023, 01:06:39 PM
Quote
It truly is insanity at its finest and I should be madder than a wet hen. I have read so many stories here, all the recommendations, the blogs, the books - I have read the books about codependency, about abandonment, about finding self love - I could teach about all of it, but I cannot seem to apply it to myself. It's like it is not getting through to the heart of the matter.

Well, yes......but I wonder if it’s worth looking at it through a different door?
Humans are so different, aren’t we, even if some bits look the same? I’m sure there are ‘reasons’ for this gap between knowledge and how it is. There are for most of us when we do - or don’t do - things that are not what we consider wise. Imho though the door to changing things we want to change is different for different folks. And it is rarely just about logic or facts. In fact sometimes the door doesn’t even look like a door, just a tiny slit in a wall  :)

Some folks find the door by digging deeper, some by setting themselves big goals that draw them forward, some by focusing on the day by day, hour by hour.

What if you thought of yourself almost like an addict who just decides not to drink a day at a time? To act ‘as if’ regardless? To try to do things that are hopeful for you, just for you, regardless of how you feel and see what works and what doesn’t? To experiment one day at a time? To see what it feels like to do it anyway regardless of the pull towards those thoughts and feelings? Just like an addict who chooses, hour by hour, a day at a time, to not drink today until they give themselves a chance to develop the habit of not drinking as opposed to the habit of drinking. To focus more on what you DO than what you think or feel or long for? To accept all the messiness of how you feel but act differently anyway? And to be a little bit kind to yourself that probably - for reasons you can’t yet feel in your bones - you are pulled towards something that you know intellectually is not serving you well at the moment.

Reading back through your old posts, it isn’t the first time your h has done something like this - it’s his pattern. He’s a Haribo Bag Guy.  ::) You can’t control his pattern....only your reactions to the pattern. You don’t need to understand why either him or you do it to change it.....you just have to decide to react differently regardless of the reasons. Decide you no longer like Haribos. Or buy your own. Or choose to eat ice cream instead. And start small to grow your confidence as you do. What small thing might you do today or tomorrow that chips away at the pattern? What would you encourage a dear friend to try or how to keep going when it’s tough?

Just a thought. Xxxx and a hug.....I like the mental image of you as a pretty but slightly cross wet hen  :)
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« Last Edit: March 16, 2023, 01:24:03 PM by Treasur »
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
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#59: March 17, 2023, 02:02:11 AM
Quote from: Treasur
Reading back through your old posts, it isn’t the first time your h has done something like this - it’s his pattern. He’s a Haribo Bag Guy.  ::) You can’t control his pattern....only your reactions to the pattern. You don’t need to understand why either him or you do it to change it.....you just have to decide to react differently regardless of the reasons. Decide you no longer like Haribos. Or buy your own. Or choose to eat ice cream instead. And start small to grow your confidence as you do. What small thing might you do today or tomorrow that chips away at the pattern? What would you encourage a dear friend to try or how to keep going when it’s tough?
Treasur has a good point. Mr. Tomatohead has a habit or pattern of casting his line, hooking you, reeling you in, and then tossing you back into the pond once he's gotten the hook out....

As Treasur noted, might it be time to stop nibbling at his worms that disguise the hook?

I mean, once is pure chance, twice is a coincidence but the third time is enemy action.....

Quote from: Treasur
Just a thought. Xxxx and a hug.....I like the mental image of you as a pretty but slightly cross wet hen  :)
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A "friend" will not "stand by you" no matter what you do. That is NOT a friend. That is an enabler. That is an accomplice.
A REAL friend will sit you down and tell you to your face to stop being a firetrucking idiot before you ruin your life and the lives of those around you.

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#60: March 17, 2023, 02:18:11 AM
I suspect I am saying in a different way what the others are saying - if you don't have enough for yourself, you don't have much to give. Your H doesn't have what you need right now. He doesn't have what is needed to be in a mutually supportive and loving relationship. I've mentioned before on the forum that I have a very close friend with clinical depression. She lets me down constantly. One of the last times she stood me up, she wrote me a message that said 'I'm so sorry to disappear and not be in contact. I am sorry to miss our Facetime. My depression means I neglect friendships and let people down'. Now, I know this a friend, that a friend is different to a spouse, and all our situations are unique, but it gives me some insight into how people's internal struggles manifest outwardly and often inexplicably to those closest to them. My F and I, we've known each other for over 20 years and love each other very much. Actually, I am realizing, as I type this, that she often disappears right after we have had a wonderful time together. She withdraws. With my F, I no longer try to figure it out, I just know it is her internal struggle and I try to keep our connection as best I can. I'm not as wise, yet, when it comes to my H, but I am getting there :)

Perhaps now is the time for a Schratz Sabbatical. An island of no contact calm to enable you a bit of perspective. Maybe, if it sits better with you, you tell your H that you are taking  X weeks out to reflect and heal. Reclaim some space in your head. I know others may disagree about telling him about the NC, but it's not asking permission, it's just communicating your needs. This way there are clear boundaries and you don't have the burden of uncertainty during this time. IMO he will keep washing up on your shores, but you want a seaworthy vessel, not driftwood. Right?  ;)
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#61: March 17, 2023, 02:26:51 PM
Thank you Ursa for the adorable image of my being a wet hen...lol...that made me laugh.....
Thank you KayDee and of course thank you Treasur.
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Me 53
H 51
AD 22 from previous R
Known H since 1993
Together since 2000
BD 06/21/2017
OW High School Sweetheart lives 4 hrs away

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#62: March 18, 2023, 06:48:44 AM
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If I give up hope, it feels like I give up on myself and on life. None of this is rational or makes any sense. I am a strong, capable, independent woman except when it comes to this man. One man, a single man, a man that has left 6 years ago and yet he still gets to hold such power over every single day of my life

I have known this feeling!!!! That feeling of not wanting to let go of the life you planned, but what helped me most was to realize that life was never guaranteed.  I try and live now the life that is in front of me. Don't look back and don't look forward. For now just live for the day. As you begin to live each day without worrying about the future and without fretting the past somehow the future doesn't seem so daunting.

Also, somehow moving forward allowed me to let go of so much pressure. Pressure to fix him, pressure to fix me, pressure to make things better for our kids, pressure to hold on to OUR life. I agree with the others on dropping the rope.  Do whatever you can to stay busy. Work on projects. Make a list of things you have always wanted to do. Big or small and start doing what you can afford and have time to do first. Accomplishments alone have boosted my self esteem and made me feel I was still building a life. My life. They are not in their right minds. It pushes the sane to insanity if you dont step away. You cant help him and you cant change him. If he changes you will know it.  So let him figure himself out. He has a lot of work to do. It’s up to him to do it and  that’s  not guaranteed. So move forward. Let him wonder what  S66 is up to??  Time to change things up !! :)



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There is almost something harder about someone being alive and having to lose what you believed to be true of them than someone actually dying.

Indefatigability - determined to do or achieve something; firmness of purpose
perspicacity- a clarity of vision or intellect which provides a deep understanding and insight

Married July 1991
Jan 2018 BD1 moved out I filed for Div/ H stopped it
Oct 2018 moved back
Oct 2020 BD2
Feb 2021 Div-29 1/2 years
July 2021 Married OW
Feb 2022  XH fired
May 2023 went NC after telling XH we could not be friends
Aug 2023 XH moves w/o OWife

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#63: March 18, 2023, 04:30:52 PM
Thank you Mad….still trying to get back up after this. Did a little bit better today except whenever I think of him I go I to full panic mode as I just cannot imagine never seeing or hearing him ever again.
But I can’t let myself think that there’s still hope because that hope is what is breaking me.
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Me 53
H 51
AD 22 from previous R
Known H since 1993
Together since 2000
BD 06/21/2017
OW High School Sweetheart lives 4 hrs away

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#64: March 18, 2023, 05:36:09 PM
Hello Schratz
I know that fear of never seeing or never hearing from our spouse again. What I feared the most in the past was losing him not just physically but also to another woman. So, I entertained him even though he really didn’t care about me. I was contented with the bits of breadcrumbs he dropped for me. Better than nothing, right. But deep inside I was miserable, I was very hurt, felt rejected. I asked myself, shouldn’t I be happy now that finally my ex wanted to live with me? My emotions went crazy, wild!

Until one day, I had to decide to kick him out and not contact him anymore. The NC in the beginning was like dying in slow motion. I thought of myself as a drug addict going through withdrawal. It helped that my ex didn’t contact me anymore. Months passed and it got better. I still miss my ex even after the D, and I feel sad, but I am proud I managed to put myself first this time.  I hope you can do that to yourself too. Perhaps NC would help you. What I realized was the moment my x announced to me that he didn’t want to be in a relationship with me anymore, that was the moment I lost him. Those days when he was being a boomerang, I think he was just using me to soothe him because at that time there was no other woman that would be willing to ride in his crazy rollercoaster ride except me. The moment he found a much younger gf, he vanished from my life. Sad buy maybe it’s good for me.
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« Last Edit: March 25, 2023, 05:33:54 AM by Thunder »
Me 43 at BD
H    45 at BD
Married 11 yrs at BD, no kids,
BD May 2019 (I moved out Nov 2019)
EA or PA with ex gf (not sure), H spent 3 nights with the hoe during our vacation in July 2019, it was a friendly encounter according to H
H wanted D April 2020 seeing suspected OW2 (divorced with two kids) and 2 years older than him, H didn’t file the D
Clinging boomerang
6/21 H moved in with me; kicked him out 01/22
H turned into a vanisher, wants a Divorce, OW 3 (16 years younger and extreme sporty)
14.11.22 Divorce final, I'm done

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#65: March 19, 2023, 02:00:01 AM
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The NC in the beginning was like dying in slow motion. I thought of myself as a drug addict going through withdrawal.

Yes! This is exactly what I recognized in myself. And so I took steps to "detox", so to speak, so that I could heal and become a stable, happy, person who could then choose my path forward. At first, my contact only for business/financial things was for the sole reason of letting him have the freedom he apparently wanted and so that OW had to be solely the one to support him (and fail). That was a great motive in the beginning. Then as I healed and also read more about affairs and MLC, I realized that I needed to heal for any reconciliation to be successful. And then I got plain exhausted with being in pain and was bound and determined to heal for my own health and sanity.

I am thankful to myself that whatever the motive at the time, I prioritized my healing. I also came to realize that he had every right to the life he left me to launch, whether it was born out of unresolved childhood issues, changes in the brain, or other explanations.
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#66: March 19, 2023, 05:39:32 AM
Reinventing stated:

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And then I got plain exhausted with being in pain and was bound and determined to heal for my own health and sanity.
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I also came to realize that he had every right to the life he left me to launch, whether it was born out of unresolved childhood issues, changes in the brain, or other explanations.

Both these statements struck me. How to reach the place where you turn the corner and you and your peace of mind become more important doesn't always occur as quickly as we would like...I cannot even point to what changed me.

Perhaps it is our inherent ability to return to a calmer state (as I often suggest looking at the polyvagal chart that explains so well what is happening to our bodies in trauma. https://lissarankin.com/category/polyvagal-theory/ ).

When this state comes, the rose colored glasses are removed and you see him or her as they truly are now. I think I continued to remember who he was and how somehow that person was still who he was ...even when seeing something different. I was not able to believe he had changed so much.

The second statement is also very important. As much as we want them to stay with us, to work on our relationship that is not what they want. There is freedom in really accepting this truth. Each of us have the right to live the life that we want and we do have control over that life, but not the circumstances of that life.

Circumstances like having a partner who is ill, living in a country that is war torn, the type of childhood we had...so many different circumstances that contribute to who we are.....but the inner self, the core being is unique to each one of us and some things are in our control.

For many years after BD, I lived my life without recognizing myself and without being able to feel joy. I did not know who xyzcf was ...not because I needed him...but because the sadness/depression/numbness was my daily companion. I was not able to feel positive emotions like joy, enthusiasm, excitement...trapped in a gray world where life was a function of routine, make coffee, do chores, go out to activities, watch tv, go to bed......wash, rinse, repeat......where was my zest for life...what happened to my joie de vie????

"Let him go" my brain would scream and I would scream back " I cannot, I am afraid to break that final thread with him"...a thread that only went one way and even that was frayed and weak......

Whatever caused that thread to detach/to break/to disconnect....I would say it was the intense therapy that helped to create the changes I needed internally to step back out into my life...and in the process to identify who xyzcf was...at first, I did not recognize her and she is a mixture for sure of who I was before BD and who I have become...and best of all, who I am becoming.

His life seems shallow and empty to me, but it seems to suit him. Whatever, as reinventing stated so well:

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I also came to realize that he had every right to the life he left me to launch, whether it was born out of unresolved childhood issues, changes in the brain, or other explanations.

My decision, my choice has been to accept his minimal contact and it was important to my goal of not allowing myself to be shaken by him anymore...other reasons as well, especially for our daughter's ability to have some family time...which is ok.....and she very much recognizes the "strangeness" of her father but I appreciate seeing them together and chatting/interacting with one another...I think they both need that, perhaps he more so than she does.

Each of us will get there in our own time .......some faster than others ...sometimes we compare ourselves to other HS members and see them moving forward faster or "better" but remember, each situation is different..our own childhood and life experiences, our marriages, our dreams....the things we took for granted need to be unpackaged as we decide what we want, and accept what is.

Reading along for so many years, I really cannot say that many people remain stuck in a state of "grief". The wound remains perhaps, but the feelings associated with that wound diminish......you can see that in other's stories and you will get there too...be patient with yourself.....find your peace. You are doing all the things you can...continue to be aware of the things that bring you to a sense of calmness and how to change your reaction to things that cause you "alarm".

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« Last Edit: March 19, 2023, 05:48:45 AM by xyzcf »
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

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TRUST IN WHAT MAY OR MAY NOT COME
#67: March 19, 2023, 06:02:00 AM
Some of my choices and circumstances were different from yours, or indeed from other posters, but I do remember the struggle to accepting what was being a hard long one. And worthwhile eventually. Looking back, I think I just reached my own internal ‘line’ when the pain of accepting the reality I could see was less than the pain and turmoil of trying to push against it. I have come to believe increasingly that we suffer most when we fight current reality as Buddhists say. And the observable reality - regardless of the cause, MLC or not - was that the person I loved wanted a life without me in it. That he chose the path he chose and he has the right - as well as the consequences, good or bad, that come with it - to do so as Reinventing said regardless of my opinion about it. Unlike xyzcf and others here, I have no idea how those series of choices worked out for him or what his POV is about any of it including the two decades before BD.

Once I started to accept that it was as it was, it became easier, bit by bit, to lay down some of the thoughts and feelings that caused my own turmoil and distress. Which does not change the fact that I had to learn to hope for different things that did not involve him and that his choice was life-altering and not what I ever would have wanted for any of us.

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I think I continued to remember who he was and how somehow that person was still who he was ...even when seeing something different. I was not able to believe he had changed so much.

This was absolutely how it was for me for long after my former h had disappeared from my life. Almost as if the old h lived in my head.....it’s a bit like grief, I found. Some part of me was afraid of consigning my memories of him to the past, almost as if I were losing him all over again. I remember feeling the same about my parents....it’s a pretty common stage of mourning I think.
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« Last Edit: March 19, 2023, 06:04:24 AM by Treasur »
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.


"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

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#68: March 20, 2023, 07:10:20 AM
Thank you Treasur, XY, Dragon and Reinventing.....
I am so very grateful to have such wonderful support here and honestly this forum saved my life early on in this process and again this last week. So much support and kindness without judgement is simply amazing and I am so thankful.

I can go NC because for most of these years that is what I have done...stayed back until he reached out and then I always replied briefly but kindly....only last year it became a more back and forth exchange of messages and some phone calls just because of how he was different and seemed to care. The short contact since he cancelled was completely withdrawn again and could not care less about me and so me not contacting will be easier I hope. He kept saying he does not know anything and somehow he believes that if the stressor in his life (property dispute and retirement) are settled then he will magically know what to do about everything else in his life. Delusional because that is not how life works, but he has never dealt well with stress.

Dragon:
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I thought of myself as a drug addict going through withdrawal


That is exactly how this has felt the last few months...and a complete withdrawal is necessary for me at this moment. I need to find my baseline, my sanity and my strength again.

Reinventing:
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And then I got plain exhausted with being in pain and was bound and determined to heal for my own health and sanity.

I am there. It took this to happen for me to actually be at the point where I cannot endure the pain and agony any longer and the only way out is to heal and heal and heal some more if I have any intention of regaining my sanity at this point.

Treasur:
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I have come to believe increasingly that we suffer most when we fight current reality as Buddhists say

I do believe that to be the truth. I have always worn rose colored glasses simply because during my childhood I had to think things were better than they were simply as a survival tool.  It is time to stop fighting reality with phantasies and unjustified hope. My mom would always make fun of me because I would always believe in the best in people and the best in situations and she said my hope will die last. I have always been one to never stop hoping and to always think miracles do happen. As my therapists says most of my survival tools from childhood no longer serve me well in adulthood and we have to reteach myself new survival tools.

XY:
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"Let him go" my brain would scream and I would scream back " I cannot, I am afraid to break that final thread with him"...a thread that only went one way and even that was frayed and weak......

That still is the biggest struggle for me...the final letting go....even though we do not even have them in our lives - it seems so final and devastating but in reality they are already gone and only in our minds are they still with us.

This entire last week had me in such a dark place, I truly wasn't sure how it would play out and I think I am in a better place today. Do I want to embrace life and dance in the streets ...No....but at least I no longer debate if life without him is even worth it, which is a huge step to me. The days can only get better from here.

Thank you again to everyone that has reached out and / or commented on my thread. You will never know how you saved me from myself and how much I appreciate every one of you.

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Me 53
H 51
AD 22 from previous R
Known H since 1993
Together since 2000
BD 06/21/2017
OW High School Sweetheart lives 4 hrs away

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#69: March 20, 2023, 10:46:22 AM
Hey S66. I’m very glad you’ve again managed to hold your head above water long enough to recover enough to start climbing back out of the pit, again. I know it’s exhausting. I haven’t commented yet because I just didn’t know what else to say except ‘I know how you feel’.

I tried a few times to post but everything felt either heavy and dramatically depressing; or trite and overly simplified, nothing very helpful. I wish I could just sit with you in solidarity while you catch your breathe and start the healing again.

You’ve been given some fabulous advice, as always here and I know you KNOW what to do (we all know it’s the DOING of the thing that is the hardest). Keep doing the little good things. Keep noticing the small good things. Keep building on those and stringing them together.

I think the ‘Addict’ analogy is the closest I’ve heard to explaining this inability you and I both have to ‘let go’. It feels wrong wrong wrong. It doesn’t FEEL the right thing to do. No matter how much we tell ourselves it is. We talk a lot about ‘acceptance’ here. Accepting reality. Accepting who they are now. Accepting what they did, and are, doing. I’ve come to the realisation that for me, the actual hardest thing to accept is that it is always going to feel wrong to let them go. But that I just need to do it anyway. I can’t wait until it feels the right thing to do (as seems to happen for many). Because I don’t think that will happen for me anytime soon (and I think you’re the same). It will always feel wrong. Until maybe one day at some time way in the future, it might not anymore? I don’t know. But I think it’s years away.

So rather than concentrating on the detaching and the accepting that seems to work for others, I’m focussed on ‘accepting that I’m not gonna accept it’. I’m not going to magically stop loving him and wishing he’d wake the F’ up!! This is how it’s going to be for quite a while yet. So I need to carry on with my day/week/life anyway. It’s gonna feel sh*t. It’s gonna be exhausting. I’m gonna be sad and miserable and f’ing YEARN for what I can’t have. Those feelings aren’t honing to go away. So I’m not going to wait for that to happen. I’m carrying on regardless. I know you can carry on regardless too. You’ve done it before and you can do it again, right?! Sending you big hugs.

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M: 53 (48 @ BD), H: 55 (51 @ BD); Married 20yrs, together 23yrs
D: 24 (19 @ BD), D: 22 (17 @ BD), 'Extra D': 22 (17 @ BD)
BD (that I didn't recognise as such) Easter 2018
BD 9th Sep 2018
OW - he (supposedly) met her in the pub a week before BD, told me about her a week after BD. Thinks 'their planets have collided' because 'their eyes met across the room' and they had an 'instant connection'. Lives with her. Is building a life with her.
Jun 20: H plans to buy a block of land and build a house with her (never happens).
May 22: Movement... (likely T&G? Time will tell I guess)
May 23: Yep, definitely a T&G last year. Still have contact but very minimal. He is a long way away from me these days. He doesn't seem particularly happy in his new life... but he's still there soooo....

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#70: March 20, 2023, 11:38:17 AM

My mom would always make fun of me because I would always believe in the best in people and the best in situations and she said my hope will die last. I have always been one to never stop hoping and to always think miracles do happen.

Well, I for one think this is not such a bad way to be. But is it possible there is more than one' miracle' available?  When we put considerable energies into one thing, it is always at the expense of other potential opportunities. It's just how it is, we only have so much energy to deploy. I guess what I am saying is, who knows what miracles or opportunities will bloom when you deploy your positive attitude elsewhere  8)
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#71: March 20, 2023, 03:36:07 PM
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So rather than concentrating on the detaching and the accepting that seems to work for others, I’m focussed on ‘accepting that I’m not gonna accept it’. I’m not going to magically stop loving him and wishing he’d wake the F’ up!! This is how it’s going to be for quite a while yet
This is good to bring up, because accepting doesn't have to mean you accept the situation and are ok with it, but that you do accept that this is the situation. Right now they choose not to be in a partnership with us, so accepting that they have a choice and you cant force someone to love you, or be with you. Acceptance of it is what it is,
Not it is what you want. That was always the hardest thing to grasp. Accepting the situation , because frankly you dont have a choice. The choice was made for us. I do think it becomes easier once you also accept they aren't ( for now at least) who you love. I never thought I could let go. It’s not what I would have hoped for, but I do understand it is my reality.
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There is almost something harder about someone being alive and having to lose what you believed to be true of them than someone actually dying.

Indefatigability - determined to do or achieve something; firmness of purpose
perspicacity- a clarity of vision or intellect which provides a deep understanding and insight

Married July 1991
Jan 2018 BD1 moved out I filed for Div/ H stopped it
Oct 2018 moved back
Oct 2020 BD2
Feb 2021 Div-29 1/2 years
July 2021 Married OW
Feb 2022  XH fired
May 2023 went NC after telling XH we could not be friends
Aug 2023 XH moves w/o OWife

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#72: March 20, 2023, 07:53:09 PM
Yep, everything MadLuv said. Sorry to see you going through all of this, Schratz.
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Everything has a beginning and an end. Life is just a cycle of stops and starts. They're ends we don't desire, but they're inevitable and we have to face them. That's what being human is all about.  -Jet Black, Cowboy Bebop

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#73: March 21, 2023, 12:18:34 PM
Thanks Johnny, Kaydee, Mad and Ever...

It truly feels like fresh out of BD.....today's accomplishment is that I have not cried. Since that dark dark cliff I was standing on last week I will focus on little victories and not crying is today's victory for me. Just like 6 years ago I will have to stop asking why.......I thought I had stopped all the whys and realized we will never understand and yet, here I am cycling with the Whys all over again. Why be consistent for 9 months, why insist there is hope, why call me....when in the end nothing changed and he is not ready to follow through. I was on my knees last night confessing to God that I am so lost, that I need his help and guidance and I apologized for thinking life was not worth it any longer.

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It’s gonna feel sh*t. It’s gonna be exhausting. I’m gonna be sad and miserable and f’ing YEARN for what I can’t have. Those feelings aren’t honing to go away. So I’m not going to wait for that to happen. I’m carrying on regardless. I know you can carry on regardless too.

Oh - Evermore - you do know exactly how I feel - somehow we are the odd ducks out - always believing and always hoping and not being able to accept. You truly are my long lost twin in this MLC mess and I appreciate you always putting into words what is in my mind, Yearning for what I can't have - that's pretty much t and carrying on regardless. So true. I thought yesterday there is not a single thing I can do to change any of this but somehow the sun keeps coming up regardless and I keep waking up regardless and I have to carry on regardless. It is all we can do. Carry on and fumble through and yearn and hope. You know, our husbands surely lost some fabulously loyal women.

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But is it possible there is more than one' miracle' available?

Kaydee, what a wonderful idea. Yes, hope and miracles can come in a variety of forms and shapes and maybe rather than just hoping for him, I could just hope for a wonderful life regardless what he decides. Thank you for that.

Slowly but surely I am getting back up. You know when we build with legos as kids and then someone breaks it, we cry....then we build it again and then when it gets broken again we become inconsolable and never want to touch another lego. Right now I do not even want to think about him or the situation. I will carry on regardless because there is no choice. But a life without physical touch and knowing someone cares and gets you is a very lonesome life despite many friends. Will there be joy again ? I don't know, but I am hoping there will be. Until then I will just put one foot in front of the other.

It takes a village to raise a child they say, but I found it takes a village to protect a soul and I found my village right here on this forum. I would not have lived to see this day had it not been for all of you on here supporting and caring and reaching out and propping me back up to where I can function again. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for catching me.



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Me 53
H 51
AD 22 from previous R
Known H since 1993
Together since 2000
BD 06/21/2017
OW High School Sweetheart lives 4 hrs away

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#74: March 21, 2023, 01:07:00 PM
I can already feel in your writing that you are recovering from this bout of the cycle. That’s how I think about it these days. There will always be waves, it’s just sometimes the waves are very big and they smash us down. But the thing we get very good at is learning how to right ourselves. More quickly each time. Your H being around consistently for 9 months meant this wave was bloody huge! Hardly surprising you got smashed flat. But look at you getting back up. And hardly surprising that such a smashing would give you a few cuts and grazes. They’ll heal. And the waves will die down again and be more doable. Just keep swimming, just keep swimming! For now it feels (for me and I suspect for you) like swimming away from him is the best direction to head for me. It’s a large ocean and I can change the direction and head where I want. And I can change and swim back towards him if he ever swims towards me one day. For now swimming for those calmer distant waters is the safest bet. So don’t think of it like a doorway (which implies a complete division if you ‘close the door’). It’s an ocean and you’re in it, and he’s in it. All swimming around lost. There’s still connection but for now you need to head to the Caribbean. Leave him in the Antarctic!
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M: 53 (48 @ BD), H: 55 (51 @ BD); Married 20yrs, together 23yrs
D: 24 (19 @ BD), D: 22 (17 @ BD), 'Extra D': 22 (17 @ BD)
BD (that I didn't recognise as such) Easter 2018
BD 9th Sep 2018
OW - he (supposedly) met her in the pub a week before BD, told me about her a week after BD. Thinks 'their planets have collided' because 'their eyes met across the room' and they had an 'instant connection'. Lives with her. Is building a life with her.
Jun 20: H plans to buy a block of land and build a house with her (never happens).
May 22: Movement... (likely T&G? Time will tell I guess)
May 23: Yep, definitely a T&G last year. Still have contact but very minimal. He is a long way away from me these days. He doesn't seem particularly happy in his new life... but he's still there soooo....

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#75: March 21, 2023, 02:49:55 PM
I agree with what Evermore said. Maybe for now you could swim away from your H and find those calm waters. Good to hear you're feeling better. I know how it feels like when your H gives you hope and then withdraws. It's horrible. But one day you'll get there.

Even though I have no more contact with my exh, I still have those tearful moments. Because we truly  love our spouses, I believe it takes a long while to heal from what we had to go through. Like what everyone said here, our healing is not linear but one thing is for sure, we are heading towards that direction.
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Me 43 at BD
H    45 at BD
Married 11 yrs at BD, no kids,
BD May 2019 (I moved out Nov 2019)
EA or PA with ex gf (not sure), H spent 3 nights with the hoe during our vacation in July 2019, it was a friendly encounter according to H
H wanted D April 2020 seeing suspected OW2 (divorced with two kids) and 2 years older than him, H didn’t file the D
Clinging boomerang
6/21 H moved in with me; kicked him out 01/22
H turned into a vanisher, wants a Divorce, OW 3 (16 years younger and extreme sporty)
14.11.22 Divorce final, I'm done

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#76: March 21, 2023, 05:31:41 PM
I am very happy to see other people writing here and sharing their own grief and sadness about the loss of their loved partner. Those of us who still have these deep feelings are not an anomaly and we need never feel that something is wrong with us because we still feel such pain.

Each person is different and sometimes it seems like many HS members have been able to shut the door and walk away quickly, some express that they are happier now then when they were married, others have gone on the find a "better" partner...often the idea of no contact is pushed because it is felt that somehow that will alleviate the pain and destruction in our lives, and that is also true for some.

You cannot "blame" yourself for still getting shook by his contact with you....Evermore has explained it very well,  each time we get smacked, it takes less time for us to "recover" albeit there is still pain and can be for several years.

My therapist explained it like a slinky that is going in reverse but it never goes back as far as the first time.

So thanks for all who have shared .....sometimes if I may say this Schartz you are quite hard on yourself for still having these feelings for him. Others have similar experiences. With a great amount of time, we heal. Perhaps those of us who take "longer" (and I learned a long time ago dealing with death) there is no time table for grief.

You said:
Quote
I thought I had stopped all the whys and realized we will never understand and yet, here I am cycling with the Whys all over again. Why be consistent for 9 months, why insist there is hope, why call me....

I am smiling because when I would ask so many "why's" DGU (DontGiveUp for those who are not familiar with him) would look me straight in the eye and say "xyzcf, what part of the word crisis don't you understand". or as Ursa puts it, trying to understand is like trying to taste the color green with your elbow.

The only minuscule explanation that I can give you is that he is a "clinging boomeranger" and that is what they do. I am 13 1/2 years post BD...you would think that by this time he would not initiate contact with me ..yet he does quite regularly. There could be 1,000 reasons why and then 1,000 more and there is a pattern...after some contact (and that includes going on vacation for 9 days just recently) he will disappear and I won't hear from him and then he'll contact me again...almost weekly text messages..jokes mainly...nothing of sustenance....it is a pattern he has repeated for years.

Of course years ago I thought each contact meant he was coming back, that he was missing me, that he still loved me but those were my dreams and desires, not his......

And the only rationale to me really is that something happened to the man I loved so deeply, they call it "mid-life crisis" and whatever he does/doesn't do has absolutely nothing to do with me.

Well of course you have heard this before ...spending time with him allows me to observe him in the flesh and photos taken are even more telling...he is still running and may always do so.

He has the ability to compartmentalize extremely well, he has bragged to me about how well he can compartmentalize and perhaps that is why they can say or do something that makes us think they are waking up...when in reality, they continue to pushdown any feeling or emotion that might cause them some distress.

Your husband cancelling the dinner might have been from fear of being in your company and so blocking contact with you for him might have been his protective mechanism not to have to feel anything at all. Or maybe not, just a loose theory.

Because I feel everything very strongly ( I would say I am an empath) both good and bad feelings are experienced but they are also dealt with...not so for the MLCer who compartmentalizes anything that has a semblance of "feelings".

I went back to therapy 8 years after BD because I could not seem to feel "JOY"....I felt like I was just going through the motions of life, life was flat and I missed having an intimate partner, being touched, feeling loved.....and I am grateful that that is now in my past and joy has become a natural part of my life.

The switch back to our feeling calmer and more content does not happen quickly unfortunately after these major disappointments....I do see a change in your writing and hope that you will soon find even ground again.

We have been there, it's horrible the somatic response that occurs, that we cannot control. I think that our spouses are seen as "danger" and so the body responds as it has been made to do...our job is to learn how to mitigate those responses and bring ourself back into a calmer state...easier said than done.
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« Last Edit: March 21, 2023, 05:35:02 PM by xyzcf »
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

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#77: March 21, 2023, 09:53:00 PM
I’m listening to this audio book by Robert Greene, The Art of Seduction (shocker, I need to figure out how the opposite sex works after two decades, I’m a little rusty!).

However, I heard something today that resonated when I read your story and it seems like too much of a coincidence. 

I’m really not sure if this helps at all.  But Greene talks about the Coquette seduction type.  Which I’ll be damned sounds just like a clinging boomerang and I’ve just put two and two together.  The Coquette often leads to the ruin of the victim (think Napoleon and Josephine). 

Gosh this is interesting.  Perhaps understanding what affect a Coquette has on LBS can help to break dependency/addition.  It’s more about the victim understanding what’s occurring and perhaps using that to break the cycle and detach.  Coquettes also have weaknesses which could be useful. 

It’s very interesting stuff RCR.  It may prove helpful in our quest for survival here. 

https://unearnedwisdom.com/part-1-the-coquette-the-art-of-seduction/

Page 67:
https://ia800708.us.archive.org/29/items/the-art-of-seduction-robert-greene/the-art-of-seduction-robert-greene.pdf


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#78: March 22, 2023, 01:15:06 AM
As you said, most of us have found that it takes a village during those hardest of times. I’m not sure why it can be so comforting to feel that others ‘get’ it and want to provide comfort and support, but it can be, can’t it? It’s a privilege really to be part of that village and to offer back what we were given.

Imho acceptance includes accepting that, at the moment, you feel how you feel. Learning to temper the usually inner voice (more than the voices of others) that says you shouldn’t feel how you feel. I never found that this voice made any difference at all to how I actually felt. It just left me feeling ‘less than’ in some way - so a sort of double whammy.  ::)

I also think that it is worth unpicking the difference between love and attachment bc I have come to see them as not quite the same thing. Seeing my mother (who has advanced dementia) reminds me of that - she is no longer present enough to be my mother and my life is lived without one now....I don’t expect mother-ness from her or much daughter-ness from me even (and when I still did, it hurt me a great deal to see her). But there is love. A different kind of love in practice, but I find the fact that love remains is a tremendous thing, a treasure really bc it says so much about me and her and my past family. I am grateful for the love even though the object of the love and much of my opportunity to show it or receive it is lost if that makes sense. The attachment, and the grief, is more self-centred, I think, more about my pain and my loss....the love is not.

Again jmo but I think the ‘addiction’ element is more about the attachment, or what it represents to us, than our love for the person. Which is why it’s complicated perhaps.

I don’t know if I agree with xyzcf about how LBS here perceive any love for their former spouse. It’s complicated, I think. I don’t think I know the answer myself about my own situation....it’s a thing but I don’t know how to describe it or define it. It’s not the same as it is was, but it’s not nothing either. And my life is not better for what happened, just different. What changed, I think - and it took a long time - is that I came to accept that he chose to go and that he is no longer a presence in my normal day to day life bc that is what he chose in how he left. And that this means that some of my own thoughts about him and my role in his life or his in mine were no longer appropriate or indeed loving even. That perhaps the most loving thing to do for both of us was to accept a changed reality in the most constructive way I could. So, for instance, it was my choice not to hate my xh or wish him harm....that never made sense to me having loved him as I did.....which did not mean I was not angry, resentful, hurt or bewildered or that I wanted to say what he did was ok or excusable.....or that I needed to interact with him bc it brought nothing good for me when I did......I just decided not to convert it to hate. Regardless of what he felt/feels and that it might make no difference at all to how he is living his life now bc he doesn’t know (or perhaps care) What I think or feel. It was a choice for me bc it made sense for me. . I know it sounds bizarre, but I really did find it helpful to think of it as if he died....although to be fair, it is years since he did any pop up boomeranging  :)

These issues and feelings are almost existential imho....they are about who we are and how we approach living....not surprisingly they take a bit of time to work through. And different folks come to rest in different spots.

The same is true, in my experience, for those issues about hope and optimism. We are shaded a bit by this experience and it causes most of us to take a hard look at our own take on the world, doesn’t it? My inherent optimism and the way I love left me naive in some ways, that’s true.....but it is also the same part where my gratitude lives, where love for my mother lives, where the flavour of my own resilience lives, where my kindness and joy live. I like what I call my Babe-ishness (after the little sheep pig in the movie  :) ) - it has some downsides, sure, but I value it too much to let it go just bc my former h didn’t value it and bc it didn’t fix my marriage or my other losses. Again, it took quite a while to work that out and to learn how to do Babe-ish separately from the folks I had loved and lost. Normal, I think.....and I have no doubt that you will find your own way to that too.

As Ever said, I hope you can see that your ‘recovery’ process is different now, that falling over and getting up again thing. I suspect it is a common experience that some kinds of contact with the situation reset the clock a bit....which is why perhaps some of us choose to minimise or reduce contact with them. Bc in reality we are reducing contact with a situation as opposed to the person, if that makes sense. But I think there is some level  of healing that doesn’t really deepen until we accept their absence....and for some of us, little or no contact is the only way to accept their absence. Not for all, but for some. I found thinking of myself as withdrawing from a situation that simply became unlivable with (for me, and I still remember the point in I think 2018 or so when I reached it, when he sent the police to my door bc I had not replied to some bizarre text messages) as opposed to thinking of myself as going NC with him.......I said no inside to the situation, and the effect on me, as opposed to saying no to him if that makes sense....it just happened to be the fact that one brought the other in my case. But I knew myself well enough to know that this was necessary for me bc the situation really was relentless and insane enough that I could not live with it being present in my life one day more.
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« Last Edit: March 22, 2023, 01:16:39 AM by Treasur »
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.


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#79: March 22, 2023, 02:51:40 AM
PS the other thought that occurs to me about contact with them.....in case it’s useful.
Seems to me that humans contact each other as a kind of ‘opening bid’ bc we want something.....that’s normal in everyday life.....i’ve just sent a small card to a rather depressed friend bc I want her to know she’s in my thoughts and I hope it will encourage her to reach back to meet up with me bc I miss her. Although I understand that she might not, and won’t infer too much about her or what she thinks about me if she doesn’t. My expectations are coloured by my empathy and my experience of her.

I think MLC spouses reach out bc they want something too......different wants perhaps.....to vent, or get reassurance, or feel better in some way. And we respond often bc we want something too....to feel we matter, to keep a connection, to feel ‘right’ or to try to fix something. At one level, that’s normal, isn’t it? But where it gets skewed imho is if we are dealing with someone who doesn’t do ‘normal’ reciprocity, who shows little respect or empathy or who wants something that we no longer want to provide. It’s a tough message, I know, and maybe not a popular one here, but I think they contact us bc they want something at the time....i’m not sure it has anything much to do with us or their feelings about us tbh, more like scratching an itch maybe?

I think we know in our gut when any relationship or friendship has respect and overall reciprocity in it. And when it doesn’t. I still remember in the first year or so post BD how my then h could bang on for hours about his concerns, ailments and woes.....and not ask a single question about me, my mother, our friends or my life. Not one....it was as if I was an inanimate object to talk at rather than talk with. Some of us have had friendships like that, ones that over time just seem too one-sided. That friend who just wants to talk about themselves or is irritated that your troubles get in the way of you listening to them talk about their new shoes  :)

So, if we see contact from them as being about their wanting something in the moment, we can decide if we want to offer it or not. And if the cost feels ok to us or not. Just bc someone wants something from us does not mean we are under an obligation to provide it, after all. And it doesn’t make us mean or bad or unkind if we decide not to. Conversely, we contact them or respond to their contact for our own wants too imho....and sometimes quiet reflection will lead us to see that they are unable or unwilling to meet those wants, and we are the ones expecting something of them and hurting ourselves bc of our expectations of the contact.

Seems to me, 66, that for reasons beyond my understanding, your h likes to have a notional ‘diary date’ some way out and likes you to respond if he contacts you. Both of those things give him something he wants and his behaviour is not influenced much by what you might want. Is that fair? And how does that stack up against what you want or expect of him in the current circumstances? And if it doesn’t, to remind you that you do have a whole raft of choices between doing the same and NC at all  :)

Again jmo but I think contact with anyone who is sufficiently dysfunctional to be unable to do basic reciprocity and respect needs to be a thought through choice. And you can probably only do it consistently if the cost is low, if you can accept them as they are and the interaction at face value without inferring or expecting more.
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#80: March 22, 2023, 06:48:27 AM
Quote
  But where it gets skewed imho is if we are dealing with someone who doesn’t do ‘normal’ reciprocity, who shows little respect or empathy or who wants something that we no longer want to provide. It’s a tough message, I know, and maybe not a popular one here, but I think they contact us bc they want something at the time....I’m not sure it has anything much to do with us or their feelings about us tbh, more like scratching an itch maybe?

THIS!!!  It is tough, but true. I think those of us with children no matter what age try harder to stay civil, connected , hope for family or may due to financial and or divorce agreements, but even with that I have found that they are either curious, wanting to see where you are or are so isolated in their new life that there is a bit of “using” us for a shallow friendship. Who doesn’t appreciate having someone love you and for someone who is emotional immature and avoidant I am sure they have some need to maybe keep us there. Give just enough to keep us hanging on.

So, I do think there is so much truth in that. I do think my XH has regrets and cares somewhat for me, but not enough to stop being disrespectful of my feelings or even of his children's feelings. If you have no contact and are in contact again you do see quite quickly where they are. Unfortunately, most times it is still in a place where they do us more harm than good. I have very little hope now that my XH will ever find the strength and courage to face his demons in life. That’s sad, but it is more sad now for him than for me and our family's future. I would not want to be him for anything. I still miss our family and who he was, but when I have had to talk to him he is not the man of character and morals that he once was. My most pain now from him is my children's loss ( as they have finally accepted he is not the father they knew)  and just that he is still walking the earth, but is not  anyone I know and as he stands not someone I would enjoy even for a 5 minute date. 

I would be beyond thrilled if my XH had an AHA wake up and my kids had their father back and I could talk to my best friend of 30 plus years again in reciprocal fashion, but right now that is a dream and not the reality. I can make a hundred wishes and   Pray to the heavens and it still not where we are. That acceptance is where I have found my own strength to move on. Appreciate who does show up in my life. Those are the ones you get love and friendship from. It’s just all so hard and we all have to find our own way. The  differing thoughts from everyone here however are always so good to read.  Some things just hit you and you feel understood. That is the beauty of this forum.
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« Last Edit: March 22, 2023, 07:16:29 AM by MadLuv »
There is almost something harder about someone being alive and having to lose what you believed to be true of them than someone actually dying.

Indefatigability - determined to do or achieve something; firmness of purpose
perspicacity- a clarity of vision or intellect which provides a deep understanding and insight

Married July 1991
Jan 2018 BD1 moved out I filed for Div/ H stopped it
Oct 2018 moved back
Oct 2020 BD2
Feb 2021 Div-29 1/2 years
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Feb 2022  XH fired
May 2023 went NC after telling XH we could not be friends
Aug 2023 XH moves w/o OWife

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#81: March 24, 2023, 10:33:05 AM
Thank you Evermore, Mad, Xy, Treasure, Dragon ....

I do feel like I am feeling much better. Yes, it was a huge wave that smacked me plum down into the sand. I have got back up, spit out the saltwater and sand, adjusted my bathing suit and am walking out of the ocean for a little while.
As I am driving to the store this morning I thought that I have given so much more leeway and grace to my MLCer than I have to myself. Treasur you have said it for a while and you are right, I am way too hard on myself and I need to be kinder and more understanding with me.

I think the times MLC said he wanted to see me were both times where I guess he was not sure if I was still in or not and maybe felt he had to step it up and give me something. But I don't know - it's just a guess and it really does not matter. He has nothing to offer and he is still as confused as ever and just wants to ensure that I am not dropping off and would no longer be an option.

I have been praying and meditating and somehow I feel lighter. The last few weeks humbled me and made me realize what I have been doing for almost 6 years is no longer working for me.  I also realized that I don't have to do anything reg MLC or the current situation. What I do have to do is put one foot in front of the other and make my life (as it is now) the best I can make it. I need to get out of the mindset that I am just in a waiting loop.

I am working again on redirecting my thoughts whenever they go to him.....I say 'we do not beg, we do not chase and we are not ruminating' and then force my mind somewhere else. It is what it is and I truly have zero control.

I am learning with the help of my therapist that overthinking and obsessively thinking is also a part of a survival strategy adopted in childhood because we think the more we think about something the better prepared we are and that gives us an illusion of having some sort of control, but in reality we still don't. My goal is that I need to learn to break all these survival strategies that no longer work for me. That I will be okay no matter what happens with MLC or what does not happen. That it has nothin to do with me and that I can fight like a banshee and think 24/7 but that still will not change what happens, so I might as well hand it over to a higher power and be free to focus on me.





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#82: March 24, 2023, 02:28:52 PM
66,

I believe you have mentioned your X has a drinking problem, plus he had an affair, which is another addictive behavior.  Probably even more addictive is the affair in which the affair partner participates or enable the alcohol addiction.  A very hard situation, I image, to wake from.

Who knows what he is telling himself about you.  Maybe you are another addiction.  He can keep you behind OWs back and get some dopamine hits from your sporadic interactions.

You are a lovely lady with a huge forgiving heart.  Any man would be lucky to have you as a partner.  You can't control him, but you can control your own moves going forward.

 
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#83: March 25, 2023, 02:36:25 AM
Well done, 66....that’s a big shift in mindset. (Looking back, I think some of my bigggest shifts came after a bit of a metaphorical or real life faceplant  :) )
You do not beg, you do not chase and you are choosing to divert your brain when it ruminates. Good stuff. (And in the spirit of reminding you to be kind, don’t beat yourself up if your brain trips up now and then  :) The goal is better and good enough, not perfection)

A coach of mine suggested experimenting with physical movement and changing your surroundings as a way to distract your brain into a different mindset. You say 5 4 3 2 1 and move.....get up and move to another room, turn some music on and dance, jog on the spot, go outside....doesn’t matter, just move your body to another physical space for a few minutes. I was a bit cynical about it but strangely found it works pretty consistently as a kind of brain/body hack for both rumination and procrastination. Actually just for shifting your mindset out of any groove  :)
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#84: March 25, 2023, 04:09:47 AM
Quote
I am working again on redirecting my thoughts whenever they go to him.....I say 'we do not beg, we do not chase and we are not ruminating' and then force my mind somewhere else. It is what it is and I truly have zero control.

I also found that mantras I would repeat to myself to redirect my brain worked well. I have used that with other behavior/thought  changes since.

Quote
A coach of mine suggested experimenting with physical movement and changing your surroundings as a way to distract your brain into a different mindset. You say 5 4 3 2 1 and move.....

Yes, this works for me too. Just walk outside and pull one weed. Just a quick circle around an adjoining room. Just walk outside and listen to what the birds sound like and come back in. Admittedly, because of the adrenalin in my body in the early days, I was circling the living room at night for a long period of time just get some energy out, lol. But then I used short stints of movement to redirect. Even when driving, I would find some movement of one of my legs or my hand.

I also carried a small stone in my pocket that had interesting contours and would feel that and focus on it at work. If I lost it, I picked up any small object I could find, like a pen top or paperclip. I remember one day it was a wood screw I found on the ground and had to watch and not let the end jab into my finger, lol. But the grooves of the screw worked pretty well for redirecting.

Anything to redirect.

That and my math challenge of subtracting numbers, while I went on long walks.

I had zero shame and did anything that helped me heal. And I always look back on those times with compassion for myself and also smile at how I must have looked to others at times.

I paid attention to how I felt with implementing these strategies and found that I had longer and longer moments of feeling stable, feeling like I could survive. It was noticeable to me. And so I kept doing them. And things that threw me off my path of healing, I didn't do. I knew I could change that in the future, and what I could handle would change, but right now, at that moment, I was going to heal and get myself back. I was changed for sure, but back to some semblance of myself.
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« Last Edit: March 25, 2023, 04:27:24 AM by Reinventing »

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#85: March 25, 2023, 06:37:00 AM
One of the first of many techniques I was taught in therapy is to stand and start to shake my arms, my legs and move my whole body for as long as it felt right, then come to stillness, close my eyes and experience the shift in my body...feeling the difference from prior to shaking.

Google "trauma release exercises" and you will see lots of suggestions.

Another one is the vagus nerve reset.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFV0FfMc_uo

Walking is also a great way to relieve stress and depression especially if you can get outdoors.

The thing is, we are not helpless in our ability to heal.

Just need to have patience to get to that place of feeling better . Each time you do these exercises, your body starts to remember those peaceful feelings and you "learn" to slip into that space quicker than previously. So practicing these things regularly is quite important.

Have a good weekend. Glad you are able to express so well how you are feeling.
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#86: March 30, 2023, 06:19:32 AM
Thanks XY, Treasur, Zion and Reinventing...

Great tips and I appreciate learning all these new techniques. I am still doing well which surprises me at just how quickly (sure at the time it did not seem quick enough) this face plant passed and I was able to get back up. Days not months ....another wave of hurt survived with the help of wonderful support on here and my local friends. 

Somehow this life face plant felt different though - it felt harder and rattled me to the bone but maybe that was the final straw to acceptance and dropping the rope and no longer entertaining hope. Am I open to meeting if he ever contacts again - absolutely, but I will not spend my days and months and years waiting for it to happen.

Another new thing for me is to remind myself daily what wonderful things I do have in my life. I still love my job, I have an amazing daughter and a more or less healthy body that can move and do as it pleases.

I have been out cycling every day and feeling your muscles ache is much better than your heart aching....still having some trouble getting on and off the bike due to my hips / legs not having the old flexibility and range yet but that will work itself out. Signed up for two more races this season so that I have a goal to focus on.








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#87: March 30, 2023, 12:55:06 PM
Hello,

Quote
Somehow this life face plant felt different though - it felt harder and rattled me to the bone but maybe that was the final straw to acceptance and dropping the rope and no longer entertaining hope.

One thing I would strongly suggest is to to stop blaming yourself for his actions. All of that ties into your past trauma that thankfully you are working to resolve to make you healed and whole. I am not against hope, but place your hope in the mindset that you will heal and you will be in a better place regardless of his actions or outcome.

I am not an anti-hope guy. I am about building hope based upon the power and control you have. You've lost weight, you are looking great, and you should feel proud of the work you have put in to feel better about yourself. That is hope and it is well placed.

Quote
Am I open to meeting if he ever contacts again - absolutely, but I will not spend my days and months and years waiting for it to happen.

Nothing wrong with that at all. Just take it for what it is worth. It's like some people who borrow from me. They mean well, but I know that chances are, I won't see the money ever again. Therefore, in my mind, I give them the money. If I get it back- great, if not, it was okay because it was a gift anyway. If he wants to meet, pick a place that you can enjoy by yourself- a great diner or coffee shop. If he cancels or doesn't show, enjoy a cup of coffee or nice dessert by yourself. You still had a good time and you just gifted him some time. No expectations... you still lived your life as if he is not coming back. Just an idea.

Have an amazing day and know that we all are in your corner cheering you on,

((((Ready))))

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#88: March 30, 2023, 04:10:25 PM
Nicely said Ready. And I totally agree with what you said about the blaming and the past trauma. I have the same issues and I only understood that it had something to do with my childhood experience of being always the one who was blamed by my mother. It really is important to understand our past traumas so we stop the same cycle.
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Me 43 at BD
H    45 at BD
Married 11 yrs at BD, no kids,
BD May 2019 (I moved out Nov 2019)
EA or PA with ex gf (not sure), H spent 3 nights with the hoe during our vacation in July 2019, it was a friendly encounter according to H
H wanted D April 2020 seeing suspected OW2 (divorced with two kids) and 2 years older than him, H didn’t file the D
Clinging boomerang
6/21 H moved in with me; kicked him out 01/22
H turned into a vanisher, wants a Divorce, OW 3 (16 years younger and extreme sporty)
14.11.22 Divorce final, I'm done

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#89: March 30, 2023, 05:49:47 PM
Quote
I am not against hope, but place your hope in the mindset that you will heal and you will be in a better place regardless of his actions or outcome.

I agree with this. We know that we can only control ourselves. Hard lesson to learn, but also freeing. We can have hope and focus on our healing at the same time.

We have but this one precious life to live. So we hope for the most healed and fullest life we can have--knowing that we don't control others, but have the powerful ability to control ourselves. Disappointing at first and then freeing and wonderful in the end.
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« Last Edit: March 30, 2023, 05:51:24 PM by Reinventing »

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#90: March 30, 2023, 10:05:22 PM
Quote
I am not against hope, but place your hope in the mindset that you will heal and you will be in a better place regardless of his actions or outcome.

I agree with this. We know that we can only control ourselves. Hard lesson to learn, but also freeing. We can have hope and focus on our healing at the same time.

We have but this one precious life to live. So we hope for the most healed and fullest life we can have--knowing that we don't control others, but have the powerful ability to control ourselves. Disappointing at first and then freeing and wonderful in the end.

The trouble I seem to have more than others (and I think S66 does too?) is that I have absolute control over my actions; some control over what I think; but only limited control over how I feel. Other people talk about whether they should give up hoping as though it's a choice; something that they just decide and then pretty much hey-presto, they no longer feel hope! Maybe I'm simplifying it far too much and that's not the case for others at all? I have read posts though of people wondering how long they CAN stand for their marriage (as though they need to make themselves when they'd really rather move on). It just doesn't work for me that way. I still feel love despite telling myself I need to try and move forward and away from loving him. I still feel hope even though I tell myself there is little hope that he will ever again want a close relationship with me. I can't work out how to control that, and really don't want to... which is perhaps part (all?) of the problem? I want to feel how I feel rather than manufacturing my feelings. Not sure. Just know it's bloody hard!





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M: 53 (48 @ BD), H: 55 (51 @ BD); Married 20yrs, together 23yrs
D: 24 (19 @ BD), D: 22 (17 @ BD), 'Extra D': 22 (17 @ BD)
BD (that I didn't recognise as such) Easter 2018
BD 9th Sep 2018
OW - he (supposedly) met her in the pub a week before BD, told me about her a week after BD. Thinks 'their planets have collided' because 'their eyes met across the room' and they had an 'instant connection'. Lives with her. Is building a life with her.
Jun 20: H plans to buy a block of land and build a house with her (never happens).
May 22: Movement... (likely T&G? Time will tell I guess)
May 23: Yep, definitely a T&G last year. Still have contact but very minimal. He is a long way away from me these days. He doesn't seem particularly happy in his new life... but he's still there soooo....

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#91: March 31, 2023, 12:14:29 AM
I’m not sure this is quite the angle I would take on it.
As humans, we have emotions.....sometimes in reaction to external things, sometimes - like we tell kids when they’re Hangry  :) - because that is just how we feel in the moment...tired or grumpy or a bit down.
Imho the tricksy bit comes with the narrative we add to the feeling. Either about ourselves or others.

Let’s say someone cuts me up when i’m driving and I feel angry or afraid....
I could tell myself that they are an a$$hat...or i’m  a terrible driver....or any number of different stories about it actually.
What the story does not change is that I had an experience and felt angry or afraid.
What the story can tend to colour is how I link that experience to other experiences and perhaps how I act then or in the future.

Or when I went to visit my mother as her dementia unfolded so rapidly.
Sometimes I dreaded it so much I would turn around halfway and not go. Sometimes I cried for hours after a visit. My head was full of thoughts and my heart full of sorrow and deep pain.
What hadn’t changed was my mother’s dementia.....and I had no control at all over whether it would be an ok visit or an awful one, whether she would know who I was or not....my feelings were real, but what I did with those feelings varied depending on the narrative I had on any given day about those feelings. I did not want to accept the reality of how my mother was/is or how it made me feel. All quite understandable. Strangely - and it has taken me years  ::) - it has become easier in the last year or so bc, I think, I have accepted things I couldn’t and let go of expectations of her and me that I held before. And that has changed some of my feelings or at least reduced the strength of some of them. I feel less guilt and helplessness or frustration....and that seems to have made it easier for me to feel love and patience and kindness for her and me.

It’s a pretty normal human behaviour to turn feelings into facts....but again jmo, they are not exactly the same thing. The feeling is a real thing.....but the story we build on the feeling is not necessarily so if that makes sense?

I don’t think anyone here, particularly with the benefit of hindsight, would tell you to not feel how you feel. Or understand that sometimes our feelings can be confusing to deal with and not always easy to deal with. Often tbh I think here on HS we are trying more to encourage people to accept the feelings they have but learn to step away from them enough to explore how they might deal with those understandable feelings in ways that are not harmful to themselves or others. Or indeed contingent on things beyond their control. So, for instance, if you haven’t heard of it, try googling the Stockdale Paradox which has some useful things to say about hope and outcomes.

We feel what we feel. Those feelings move around sometimes in surprising ways over time. And again jmo the challenge for many LBS is finding their own way to accept and respect their own feelings, whatever they might be, and to construct a way of living that feels healthy, constructive, hopeful and peaceful regardless of what their spouse/ex did or is doing or not doing.
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« Last Edit: March 31, 2023, 12:25:07 AM by Treasur »
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.


"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

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#92: March 31, 2023, 01:17:00 AM
Quote
The trouble I seem to have more than others (and I think S66 does too?) is that I have absolute control over my actions; some control over what I think; but only limited control over how I feel.

I don't think you are different from other people in having limited control on how you feel. I would have given any amount of money in my power to get rid of the pain, the crushing and all-consuming feelings.

I didn't feel human, even.

That is when I seriously began reading about how to heal. I didn't think I could literally survive with those feelings.

That is why I focused so much on healing. I paid attention to what gave me relief from the excruciating pain. What helped me feel more stable. I did more of what helped me feel stable and less of things that threw me off (e.g. social media). Everything went through that lens.

I didn't give up hope to do these exercises, these things that helped me heal and become a person again. Healing and hope are not mutually exclusive.

A piece of that healing was realizing that my thoughts and feelings are linked (hence the mantras and ways to interrupt obsessing). Who knew? Also, the realization that my XH had every right to live the life he chose. No matter why he did what he did. He is a separate person from me and I couldn't control him.

And I can't control others. But I can control me. So I focused on me, put energy and time into me. I was bound and determined to heal. To lessen feeling the soul-crushing pain, to laugh again, to enjoy the little things in life.
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#93: March 31, 2023, 01:25:35 AM
Could not agree more, Reinventing. I remember a time when I would have given anything to not feel how I felt.

Read this article recently which chimes with what you said above. I really like the phrase ‘winter of the mind’...it felt like a long winter to me  ::)....but I thought it’s a thought provoking take on how one might move out of survival mode regardless of the cause of the winter. https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2023/mar/20/a-winter-of-the-mind-how-to-escape-survival-mode
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H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.


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#94: March 31, 2023, 01:32:15 AM
Thanks for your thoughtful thoughts Treasur.

I agree with all you've said when we are talking about transient feelings that we are experiencing because of something that has happened. But I'm not talking about that kind of feeling (and for me, perhaps wrongly, there is a difference).

The feelings of hope and love that I am talking about I don't chuck in the same bucket as those types of feelings that are caused by/affected by something we did/something that happened to us/something that someone did to us etc (anger, sadness, confusion etc).

The feeling of love I'm talking about is just 'always there' and it doesn't change. Like the love we have for our children or our parents or our pets. I don't love my kids more when they're behaving and less when they're being annoying. It's not a transient feeling. It's just a constant feeling. And likewise, I don't love my H less because he's gone off and had a MLC (or whatever). I often feel pressure from people who feel that I SHOULDN'T feel the same way any more. That what he did will automatically, or should automatically, wipe my feelings for him away. Because it does seem to do that for some/many people.

As for the feelings of 'hope/yearning/wishing' that I have, this is different from the love feeling because it's regarding a want/wish that I have. It's like... how to explain... my hope/wish for a closer relationship with him is what I want 'for me'. It's something that flows from him to me (or something I would like to flow from him to me  ::)). Whereas my love for him is something that flows from me to him and requires nothing from him at all. It doesn't change depending on what he's done or is doing (ie unconditional love). I do feel that there are people who simply can't understand how I can still feel that way after everything that has happened. There is even often an implication that I am disrespecting myself by still feeling this way.

I'm not really sure I'm making sense!  ;D And I've taken up enough of s66's thread (I hope you're feeling stronger BTW s66! xx).

Thanks again Treasur (I very much value these types of discussions, also I have read the Stockdale Paradox before).
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« Last Edit: March 31, 2023, 01:33:34 AM by Evermore »
M: 53 (48 @ BD), H: 55 (51 @ BD); Married 20yrs, together 23yrs
D: 24 (19 @ BD), D: 22 (17 @ BD), 'Extra D': 22 (17 @ BD)
BD (that I didn't recognise as such) Easter 2018
BD 9th Sep 2018
OW - he (supposedly) met her in the pub a week before BD, told me about her a week after BD. Thinks 'their planets have collided' because 'their eyes met across the room' and they had an 'instant connection'. Lives with her. Is building a life with her.
Jun 20: H plans to buy a block of land and build a house with her (never happens).
May 22: Movement... (likely T&G? Time will tell I guess)
May 23: Yep, definitely a T&G last year. Still have contact but very minimal. He is a long way away from me these days. He doesn't seem particularly happy in his new life... but he's still there soooo....

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#95: March 31, 2023, 01:40:42 AM
Quote
The trouble I seem to have more than others (and I think S66 does too?) is that I have absolute control over my actions; some control over what I think; but only limited control over how I feel.

I don't think you are different from other people in having limited control on how you feel. I would have given any amount of money in my power to get rid of the pain, the crushing and all-consuming feelings.

I didn't feel human, even.

That is when I seriously began reading about how to heal. I didn't think I could literally survive with those feelings.

That is why I focused so much on healing. I paid attention to what gave me relief from the excruciating pain. What helped me feel more stable. I did more of what helped me feel stable and less of things that threw me off (e.g. social media). Everything went through that lens.

I didn't give up hope to do these exercises, these things that helped me heal and become a person again. Healing and hope are not mutually exclusive.

A piece of that healing was realizing that my thoughts and feelings are linked (hence the mantras and ways to interrupt obsessing). Who knew? Also, the realization that my XH had every right to live the life he chose. No matter why he did what he did. He is a separate person from me and I couldn't control him.

And I can't control others. But I can control me. So I focused on me, put energy and time into me. I was bound and determined to heal. To lessen feeling the soul-crushing pain, to laugh again, to enjoy the little things in life.

Thanks for your thoughts too Reinventing (such amazing people here). :)

I just want to emphasise that I feel I'm healing very well and dealing with all the pain etc pretty darn well these days. I have a happy joy-filled life that I'm very grateful for. But that what I'm talking about I think is different than 'those feelings'. Maybe I'm very weird for thinking the way I do. I feel like I'm well on the path to healing... but still love my husband and still 'want to try again'. I feel like many people who get 'where I feel I am now' DON'T want their partner any more, or at least don't care either way. Of course not everyone. But it does feel like a majority? Again, likely not explaining myself well. Thanks again for the discussion.
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« Last Edit: March 31, 2023, 02:00:05 AM by Evermore »
M: 53 (48 @ BD), H: 55 (51 @ BD); Married 20yrs, together 23yrs
D: 24 (19 @ BD), D: 22 (17 @ BD), 'Extra D': 22 (17 @ BD)
BD (that I didn't recognise as such) Easter 2018
BD 9th Sep 2018
OW - he (supposedly) met her in the pub a week before BD, told me about her a week after BD. Thinks 'their planets have collided' because 'their eyes met across the room' and they had an 'instant connection'. Lives with her. Is building a life with her.
Jun 20: H plans to buy a block of land and build a house with her (never happens).
May 22: Movement... (likely T&G? Time will tell I guess)
May 23: Yep, definitely a T&G last year. Still have contact but very minimal. He is a long way away from me these days. He doesn't seem particularly happy in his new life... but he's still there soooo....

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#96: March 31, 2023, 01:59:48 AM
Yes! It was a part of my journey to realize my feeling of love continued no matter what he did or felt toward me. That my love was really what I felt and owned.

I also came to understand that I could have those feelings and still focus on my healing. In fact, with healing, I am much more able to enjoy those feelings, memories and have empathy for him and what he went through.

I realized that love is not controlling and trying to get someone to do what I want. It is to respect them as a separate person. It took me a long time to understand that, as simple of a concept as it seems to be.

One of the things I wish I had understood when I was young.
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« Last Edit: March 31, 2023, 02:12:44 AM by Reinventing »

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#97: April 01, 2023, 05:56:13 AM
This is such a great discussion, because as you say you can’t change how you feel by any process you try. I felt like you for so long. For me it took accepting that my reality just was no longer. He had changed how our family would be from now on, he changed my safety in him, he changed my control over how I wanted my life and family to play out forever. When I could finally truly accept that reality and realize even if he came back that not only would things not be the same, but we both would not be the same. This changes everything. I think we hold on to hope that they come back and we can easily rebuild what was lost, but in reality we have to start all over and we don’t get that new relationship fresh start. We get a new relationship with all the old damage of the old relationship, but now we are two different people dealing with a history that almost destroyed us. I have so much love for who my XH was and our family as it was. Do I think family’s can come back from this and start a new? I do, but it would and does take a lot of work and I think more effort than most MLCers have in them.

What worked best for me finally was looking at my life now. My children and my friends. Appreciating those who were showing up in my life . Those who valued me and putting my energy into those relationships. I really have no idea how my XH life will play out. I have told him that if he needs a friend he knows where I am and I will answer that call and that knock always. I mean that, but he is not showing up in my life in any real way. So until that changes he is not a focus. My feelings have changed. What made me Love him Is no longer there as we dont as it stands now have the same morals or values. If he had some epiphany I dont know how I would react. Thats what is kind of great about moving forward and dropping that rope of hope. There can always be a little hope in letting go as well. Nothing has to be set in stone. That opens the door for moving forward and to welcome back anyone you want at any time.
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There is almost something harder about someone being alive and having to lose what you believed to be true of them than someone actually dying.

Indefatigability - determined to do or achieve something; firmness of purpose
perspicacity- a clarity of vision or intellect which provides a deep understanding and insight

Married July 1991
Jan 2018 BD1 moved out I filed for Div/ H stopped it
Oct 2018 moved back
Oct 2020 BD2
Feb 2021 Div-29 1/2 years
July 2021 Married OW
Feb 2022  XH fired
May 2023 went NC after telling XH we could not be friends
Aug 2023 XH moves w/o OWife

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#98: April 04, 2023, 09:35:01 AM
Wow, indeed. What a great point of discussion.

Thank you Ready….you are always so spot on and so kind.

Quote
I am not against hope, but place your hope in the mindset that you will heal and you will be in a better place regardless of his actions or outcome.

So true indeed and when I asked my therapist what my purpose is right now, she said your healing. And that is truly what I am focusing now. Oddly enough, every time I think of MLC now, I tell myself to focus on my healing and MLC will be what it will be. Hope no longer has this negative thing attached for me, because I felt I was enslaved by hope, but now it is just something I have but not something that I concentrate on.

Thank you Dragon

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It really is important to understand our past traumas so we stop the same cycle.

I honestly had no idea how much child hood trauma played into all of this until the last few years. Once you see, you cannot unsee and want to heal to become the best version of yourself and to stop the needless suffering

Treasur,

Very interesting and maybe an aha moment for me.
Quote
Let’s say someone cuts me up when i’m driving and I feel angry or afraid....
I could tell myself that they are an a$$hat...or i’m  a terrible driver....or any number of different stories about it actually.
What the story does not change is that I had an experience and felt angry or afraid.

I used to let stuff like that ruin my day – years ago I decided I can be angry for a few minutes and then toss it because it will not matter in 5 hours….not so easy to translate that into emotional attachment feelings like with your mom for example. I think when emotional attachment is involved we have a much harder time to accept reality and release all expectations, because it involves so many different layers of feelings and experiences and some involve our perceived identity...i.e. daughters, wives, etc

Thank you Reinventing,
Quote
I didn't feel human, even.

That is when I seriously began reading about how to heal. I didn't think I could literally survive with those feelings.

Exactly how I felt the last few months. For years I was just focusing on surviving somehow and keeping hope. Something switched since then and I truly simply want to focus on healing to become human again. Human as in wanting to live and wanting to experience joy again.

Evermore,
Quote
I often feel pressure from people who feel that I SHOULDN'T feel the same way any more. That what he did will automatically, or should automatically, wipe my feelings for him away. Because it does seem to do that for some/many people

I heard that many times as well and I do not agree. The way I look at it anymore is similar to my dad who was also MLC. He was always my dad and I did love him, but accepted that he did not want me in his life. Tough pill to swallow but it did not negate the feeling I had about him. It was his choice, but my feelings remained the same. I am trying to get there with my MLC. I know I will always love him, but I have to let him make his choice of not wanting me in his life. It’s hard sometimes because we want what we want and it is easy to forget that they are also complete humans and have a right to their choices. That was one of the hardest pills to swallow for me…..that I have no right to think my choice is the only valid one for ‘us’ ….. just like our kids…..we can express that their choices are not what we would have chosen but we have to let them go and experience their own.

Quote
Thanks for your thoughts too Reinventing (such amazing people here). 

So true – wonderful, compassionate and wise people on here and I am blessed to have found this forum so early on in this journey.

All in all I am still doing great.....mantras, redirecting and focusing on healing my childhood traumas. Currently stationary for a few days again because apparently I have a twisted lumbar vertebrae and my muscles are completely seized up around it. I have never cried in physical pain, but I did yesterday. So, daily chiropractor visits for the rest of the week and hoping it will get moved back around.

Interestingly in therapy my therapist asked me to list all characteristics that my perfect spouse would have and I did. Surprisingly, the current version of MLC only clears 2 out 10 characteristics.....he's tall and intelligent.....lol.......then she asked what would be a deal breaker for me......most people pick drug or alcohol addiction as deal breakers but oddly that is not a complete deal breaker for me, but a liar is something i would have to say a hard NO to.
So, the current version of MLC is not only not a spouse i want but also recently is a liar. Sure, the lies I do believe are not malicious lies, but more his confusion and inability to stick to what he says, but they are still lies. Realizing those two things has helped me quite a bit. The current version is not someone that I treasure......I still love him, but I do not respect him at the moment and I most certainly could not trust him right now adn that was always huge for me. When I told him at the last interaction that what hurt me the most was that he never broke a promise and this time he did - he was shocked....not that he broke a promise, but the fact that I said he never broke one before......they really have no idea how different of a person they are becoming.

D and her fiance are coming in for Easter so I am looking forward to that. I wish everyone a blessed Easter and may the miracle of his resurrection be an eternal miracle for all of us.

Anyhow, thank you again for stopping by and dispensing wisdom and thoughts and opinions - all of which I need and look forward to.

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BD 06/21/2017
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#99: April 05, 2023, 02:29:44 PM
.I still love him, but I do not respect him at the moment and I most certainly could not trust him right now adn that was always huge for me. When I told him at the last interaction that what hurt me the most was that he never broke a promise and this time he did - he was shocked....not that he broke a promise, but the fact that I said he never broke one before......they really have no idea how different of a person they are becoming.

This!! They really do become different people and have so little self awareness of this fact.  That said, I also think that we have changed. This whole experience has changed us. Some for the better and a little for the worse unfortunately. I think trusting anyone will be a challenge for most of us.  Your realizations of MLC's current character traits are such a huge reflection of your own healing and growth. It is interesting to see how we can still love them and yet acknowledge that they are not what is best for us right now. For our own healing.

Have a wonderful Easter with your D and her fiancé.
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H 49
S15
BD 5/16
H Moved out 6/16
OW--yes. Worked for H. EA turned into PA while I was in chemo. On again/off again like every high school romance

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#100: April 05, 2023, 11:19:02 PM
Quote
Currently stationary for a few days again because apparently I have a twisted lumbar vertebrae and my muscles are completely seized up around it. I have never cried in physical pain, but I did yesterday. So, daily chiropractor visits for the rest of the week and hoping it will get moved back around.

Hope this heals quickly, along with your other healing that we know can take some time. Back pain is so hard to have since it affects everything you do. Hope you're able to at least sleep okay?
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#101: April 17, 2023, 10:02:26 AM
Well, here we are...just came to journal a bit and follow some other topics.....
After daily chiropractor visits for almost 2 weeks my vertebrae seems to be back in place for now.....thank God.....but I am also grateful that I do not think of MLC when I am in physical pain...I wonder if my mind knows that I cannot handle physical and emotional pain at the same time...lol.....
Easter with D and the grandcats was wonderful and holidays are back to being joyful since I get to see my D rather than just sad.
Have not heard from him despite him saying  "I'll be in touch" and I am okay with it as it keeps me even keel.
It's almost 6 years since BD and it seems crazy that it has been this long as it still just seems like yesterday that I was his wife and lover.
The only time I even still talk about him is on here and at the therapists - everyone else just considers it a chapter closed and done with and some times I am a little ashamed that I have not been able to close it and walk away, but like Evermore I just cannot stop loving him and it is what it is.
With each year that passes I do lose a little hope of him ever working through it though, but I just have to keep on moving along.

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#102: April 17, 2023, 03:48:43 PM
Hey S66. I'm so glad you back is feeling better. And your Easter sounded lovely.    :)

I get ya on the:
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It's almost 6 years since BD and it seems crazy that it has been this long as it still just seems like yesterday that I was his wife and lover.
(except for me it's 'nearly 5 years'   :-\)

I also (as you know) really get you on the:
Quote
... everyone else just considers it a chapter closed and done with and sometimes I am a little ashamed that I have not been able to close it and walk away

Just sending you a reminder that you're not alone and you're not crazy. We will both 'get there' (wherever 'there' is!  ;D).
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M: 53 (48 @ BD), H: 55 (51 @ BD); Married 20yrs, together 23yrs
D: 24 (19 @ BD), D: 22 (17 @ BD), 'Extra D': 22 (17 @ BD)
BD (that I didn't recognise as such) Easter 2018
BD 9th Sep 2018
OW - he (supposedly) met her in the pub a week before BD, told me about her a week after BD. Thinks 'their planets have collided' because 'their eyes met across the room' and they had an 'instant connection'. Lives with her. Is building a life with her.
Jun 20: H plans to buy a block of land and build a house with her (never happens).
May 22: Movement... (likely T&G? Time will tell I guess)
May 23: Yep, definitely a T&G last year. Still have contact but very minimal. He is a long way away from me these days. He doesn't seem particularly happy in his new life... but he's still there soooo....

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#103: April 17, 2023, 06:10:42 PM
You need not be ashamed..I am over 13 years since BD...I miss him still, I wish we still had a life together. I did not get any choice in this. He owns it all.

There is no timetable where you must be "over" this.....I have a good life, I live well, I have peace but I still miss him every single day and dream often about him at night.  This is part of the trauma...we do not forget..actually the brain is incredible in that it remembers almost everything that has ever happened to us.

I am glad you are feeling better.
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#104: April 17, 2023, 08:12:11 PM
I hear you. I’m only about 2 1/2 years from BD, but I already sense this is permanent and I’ll always miss him. I thank you for sharing and acknowledging that it’s okay to feel that way. I feel like so many people around me just wish I’d, “get over it”x
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#105: May 30, 2023, 10:34:48 PM
Hey S66. Just checking in on you. :)
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BD (that I didn't recognise as such) Easter 2018
BD 9th Sep 2018
OW - he (supposedly) met her in the pub a week before BD, told me about her a week after BD. Thinks 'their planets have collided' because 'their eyes met across the room' and they had an 'instant connection'. Lives with her. Is building a life with her.
Jun 20: H plans to buy a block of land and build a house with her (never happens).
May 22: Movement... (likely T&G? Time will tell I guess)
May 23: Yep, definitely a T&G last year. Still have contact but very minimal. He is a long way away from me these days. He doesn't seem particularly happy in his new life... but he's still there soooo....

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#106: June 22, 2023, 07:35:23 AM
Thank you Evermore for checking on me.....
Have not heard a peep from MLC which is unusual since his normal contact was always somewhere around 6-8 weeks and it has been 3 months now, but at least I am living without any drama.  Diving into childhood trauma in therapy and I had always said that MLC felt like 'home' to me.....well, guess what.....he felt like home because he was both my parents wrapped into one......emotionally unavailable like my father and an alcoholic like my mother......that was such an 'aha' moment for me - not sure what to do with that information yet but it explains my attachment to him that seemed so insurmountable.
I am doing well - enjoyed a week with my D - going to a Taylor Swift concert that I promised her 10 years ago...lol......but it was an absolutely amazing performance. Other than that - just working and enjoying a peaceful existence and wishing I could be just 'done' with MLC.
Oddly enough I no longer know how I feel about him, about MLC, about standing, but I do not have to do anything so we shall see.

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#107: June 22, 2023, 08:42:56 AM
‘Doing well….enjoyed….amazing….peaceful….no longer know….do not have to do anything…we shall see’

Well, look at you with your nice calm good stuff language, 66. Give yourself a high five immediately!  :)
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#108: June 22, 2023, 06:15:10 PM
Good to have an update from you, S66. 

Taylor Swift -- tried to get tickets, but couldn't score them for a price I could pay.  I do have a niece that is going though. 
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#109: June 23, 2023, 12:56:32 AM
Hi Schratz!

As far as your MLC'er goes - It's not a GIF but.....
https://youtu.be/aGSKrC7dGcY



Taylor is coming to Germany to 3 different cities but too far away from me to get there and back in an evening   :'( :'( :'(

The lottery to buy tickets just opened
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#110: July 13, 2023, 08:51:15 AM
Thank you Treasur......it feels pretty good to be calm and actually not worrying about MLC and the what ifs .....I think the last interaction was a game changer for me......the most attractive quality to me was always MLC's integrity and being a man of his word.....when I realized he no longer knows how to keep promises or his word, it changed something inside of me......my biggest pet peeve has always been liars and that is what he is right now so no contact at all is fine with me.....

Another thing I realized is that I only have a limited amount of time left and I want to live it to the fullest and most peaceful extent that I can ...I do not want to force anything anymore ...if it happens, it happens, if it doesn't, it doesn't.

Depeche Mode - Ursa......dang.....brings back the 80s and youth....lol......love it.......Taylor is coming to Munich next year which is where my brother lives and if the tickets go into general sales, I will try to get some......I did just see though where the ticket sales went crazy and sites crashed....so, we shall see......

D and the grand cats are coming in for the weekend, so I know we will have a great time........other than that I am just enjoying summer and riding my bike occasionally when my back allows it.......

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#111: July 14, 2023, 01:13:58 AM
Another thing I realized is that I only have a limited amount of time left and I want to live it to the fullest and most peaceful extent that I can ...I do not want to force anything anymore ...if it happens, it happens, if it doesn't, it doesn't.

GOOD!
Depeche Mode - Ursa......dang.....brings back the 80s and youth....lol......love it.......Taylor is coming to Munich next year which is where my brother lives and if the tickets go into general sales, I will try to get some......I did just see though where the ticket sales went crazy and sites crashed....so, we shall see......
The "pre-registration" for Taylor tickets went wrong from the start and the tickets sold out in minutes for all three shows, despite the web site crashing regularly. I just talked to a colleague who got one ticket for Gelsenkirchen and one for Vienna....
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A "friend" will not "stand by you" no matter what you do. That is NOT a friend. That is an enabler. That is an accomplice.
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#112: August 03, 2023, 05:48:25 AM
Just Journaling to get the thoughts out of my head.....
Not a peep from MLC since March which is the longest he had been silent in 6 years......he said he'd be in touch...he said he wanted me to wait until July.....he said he would make a decision one way or another........what I got is silence........a little part of me is hurt that again it was more lies and the other part of me is doing okay with it....I still have no idea what I want or how I feel about him but I do know that I cannot stand a liar.......where does that leave me.....it leaves me just worrying about my own life and my own issues and leaving him to his......I do hope and pray that he will not drink himself to death or end up paralyzed from falling off a chair drunk like his brother did, but I cannot help him.........just such a sad waste of life and time that we have limited amounts left.....my heart breaks for him
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#113: August 03, 2023, 07:25:59 AM
You know they don’t deal with time like we do, so as important as that July date was for you, well he probably hasn’t even realized it is past or if he does it is because he is still in his own way. You can feel sad for him, but don’t worry about him. He is an adult man. He has choices and love and support are for his taking. That took me a long time to grasp. I feel bad for my XH, but not sorry for him anymore. When we feel sorry we have a savior complex kicking in ( or that’s how I finally saw it for me) I can feel empathy and sadness for someone that was so important, but you have no responsibility for his life and choices. We think we do… for so long. So let yourself off the hook on that. You don't need that burden to bare. If he isn’t contacting you then he isn’t ready and you don’t want someone that isn’t ready. And keep journaling. I also do to clear my head. Most mine is now due to my kids pain more than mine, but we do need to clear it!!
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There is almost something harder about someone being alive and having to lose what you believed to be true of them than someone actually dying.

Indefatigability - determined to do or achieve something; firmness of purpose
perspicacity- a clarity of vision or intellect which provides a deep understanding and insight

Married July 1991
Jan 2018 BD1 moved out I filed for Div/ H stopped it
Oct 2018 moved back
Oct 2020 BD2
Feb 2021 Div-29 1/2 years
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#114: August 03, 2023, 07:37:01 AM
Fwiw, I think the on-off waiting thing is damaging to you bc a) it eats up life that could be lived without that feeling of waiting for something and b) the up down and inherent exoectations of it hurts you, I think?

I would be tempted to treat the silence as an unsolicited gift from the universe or a post it note from God - bc imho that’s how life works sometimes - that it may be a good time to free yourself from the up down waiting thing…..
It’s not the first time, but it could be the last time if you choose it to be.
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#115: August 03, 2023, 07:52:39 AM
Treasur is so right. It is a gift we never knew we needed if in this situation. Better than giving us false hope or more confusion. I know I an grateful now for it, even if I didn’t see it that way for so long.
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There is almost something harder about someone being alive and having to lose what you believed to be true of them than someone actually dying.

Indefatigability - determined to do or achieve something; firmness of purpose
perspicacity- a clarity of vision or intellect which provides a deep understanding and insight

Married July 1991
Jan 2018 BD1 moved out I filed for Div/ H stopped it
Oct 2018 moved back
Oct 2020 BD2
Feb 2021 Div-29 1/2 years
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#116: August 03, 2023, 07:41:31 PM
Quote
He is an adult man. He has choices and love and support are for his taking. That took me a long time to grasp.

Yes, and they are human beings separate from the LBS and I respect that they can pursue a separate life from us, no matter the reason. They are not a child. We are not their parents.

We can think that things "should" be a certain way, but if that is not the reality of the situation, then we make sure we are in reality. In my opinion, being in reality, which includes realizing this is not us or the marriage allows us to stabilize and not cast our sail to an unstable person.
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#117: August 05, 2023, 07:50:31 AM
Quote from: Schratz66
.he said he wanted me to wait until July.....he said he would make a decision one way or another........what I got is silence..

Silence is also a form of decision... Not making a decision is also a decision or a choice ... to NOT choose... to keep the other side (in this case you) "on the hook" and waiting.

He is an adult..... not yours to control but also not yours to have to protect either.

As he has chosen NOT to choose or at the very least not to communicate his decision by his self-imposed deadline, you are free to make YOUR decision, whatever it is.....
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#118: August 09, 2023, 11:40:04 AM
MadLuv
Quote
You know they don’t deal with time like we do, so as important as that July date was for you, well he probably hasn’t even realized it is past or if he does it is because he is still in his own way.

I am certain that this is spot on....he probably would not even remember ever saying July..... thank you for pointing that out - it helps.

Treasu
Quote
Fwiw, I think the on-off waiting thing is damaging to you bc a) it eats up life that could be lived without that feeling of waiting for something and b) the up down and inherent expectations of it hurts you

You put in a nutshell what my problem has been. The feeling of waiting and therefor wasting precious time and then expectations that I keep having. I brought up to my therapist how to let go of him without letting go of life. While it may be extreme, he has been the only adult relationship that has provided me with what my therapist calls basic human needs i.e. feeling safe (physically and emotionally), belonging, being heard, feeling seen
Learning to love myself over time should make the letting go a little easier when that is no longer the only thing to make me feel alive.

Ursa
Quote
Silence is also a form of decision... Not making a decision is also a decision or a choice ... to NOT choose...

Absolutely correct and he had been not choosing since the first moment when he uttered 'he's not sure' and he has maintained that in 6 years. And as I am working on myself, I decided that I want someone to choose me.

Thank you all for your amazing insights and continued help in navigating this seemingly endless tunnel. Most days I try not to think about it, but there is still moments of course where I wonder why the silence now or was this truly it, but then I remind myself that I do not know and all I can do is live each day the best that I can.


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#119: August 09, 2023, 01:42:29 PM
It’s the craziness of it all!! Mine is married and the last time I talked to him he is still responding on things that should be firm, but they are non-committal  ( if that makes sense) When I did have to communicate I would always ask one question that I could gauge where he was by his response. The last time I talked to him I asked if all was good? Was he where he wanted to be?  He responded, I am doing what I think I have to do. Still not wanting to just commit and say yes, thank you for asking, I am or I am getting there. Nope!  So your husband said July. Maybe he was buying time. Wanted you to have something to hold on to. They give hope when they have no hope to give, but they need you hanging on. It always tells you exactly where they are.  Same place, different day… most the time :(
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Indefatigability - determined to do or achieve something; firmness of purpose
perspicacity- a clarity of vision or intellect which provides a deep understanding and insight

Married July 1991
Jan 2018 BD1 moved out I filed for Div/ H stopped it
Oct 2018 moved back
Oct 2020 BD2
Feb 2021 Div-29 1/2 years
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Aug 2023 XH moves w/o OWife

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#120: August 09, 2023, 02:47:19 PM
Dear S66, when you drift off to sleep tonight, remind yourself that you are the kind, stable, thoughtful, considerate person in this dynamic. You are the one that is holding all the cards. I don't mean to be unkind to your H, but currently he is alcohol dependent, disorganised and inconsiderate. When Madluv writes he cannot give hope, she is right, because he has no hope for himself. Sorry, I sound blunt - I actually have a lot of compassion for the mental turmoils of depression and MLC, but until he deals with himself, he has nothing to offer you. I hope one day he will. I hope he makes you something big and beautiful.
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#121: August 09, 2023, 10:30:30 PM
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I actually have a lot of compassion for the mental turmoils of depression and MLC,

Agreed, we have compassion--but not to the point where we sacrifice our own mental stability and ability to lead our lives.

We're not advocating martyrdom to something we didn't cause and we can't fix.
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#122: August 10, 2023, 12:28:52 AM
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I actually have a lot of compassion for the mental turmoils of depression and MLC,

Agreed, we have compassion--but not to the point where we sacrifice our own mental stability and ability to lead our lives.

We're not advocating martyrdom to something we didn't cause and we can't fix.

Exactly! "Forgiving someone does not mean that you allow them to do it to you again."

Absolutely correct and he had been not choosing since the first moment when he uttered 'he's not sure' and he has maintained that in 6 years. And as I am working on myself, I decided that I want someone to choose me.

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Divorce final 30 August 2019
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#123: August 10, 2023, 07:21:51 AM
Quote
I actually have a lot of compassion for the mental turmoils of depression and MLC,

Agreed, we have compassion--but not to the point where we sacrifice our own mental stability and ability to lead our lives.

We're not advocating martyrdom to something we didn't cause and we can't fix
  YES!! The last convo I had with MLCer I did tell him I forgave him for the past, but what I could no longer forgive was he wasn’t doing anything about it now. As long as he is where he is. Well, no friendship to be had. We try with agape love until we are drained and realize that we have to start loving ourselves and living for ourselves. Letting go of someone we love while they destroy their lives is the hardest thing to do for the compassionate LBS. The best I could do was say…If you decide to help yourself then I will be there for you then.
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There is almost something harder about someone being alive and having to lose what you believed to be true of them than someone actually dying.

Indefatigability - determined to do or achieve something; firmness of purpose
perspicacity- a clarity of vision or intellect which provides a deep understanding and insight

Married July 1991
Jan 2018 BD1 moved out I filed for Div/ H stopped it
Oct 2018 moved back
Oct 2020 BD2
Feb 2021 Div-29 1/2 years
July 2021 Married OW
Feb 2022  XH fired
May 2023 went NC after telling XH we could not be friends
Aug 2023 XH moves w/o OWife

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#124: August 24, 2023, 09:49:10 AM
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I don't mean to be unkind to your H, but currently he is alcohol dependent, disorganised and inconsiderate. When Madluv writes he cannot give hope, she is right, because he has no hope for himself.

Talk about a spot on assessment.....Thank you KayDee....he sure does not have any hope for himself and that is s sad but it is what it is. He is turning into his father which he always was so harsh on. I know I am not responsible nor can I help him, but it just makes me sad that he gave up on himself.

Still have not heard a single peep from him and that is the longest of no contact he has been in 6 years.

The other night I had an odd dream about him ....he was working fast food somewhere and had long bleached hair in a ponytail and he was very much wanting to reconnect in my dream......I know sometimes dreams are just wishful thinking but I also think sometimes dreams are telling us something that is happening......I try not to think much about him and purposely change my thoughts when he creeps in because there is nothing I can do and ruminating is just wasting time and effort without results.

Just ordered me "The body keeps score" book and am excited to hopefully find some further healing and insight about dealing with past traumas to move forward. If nothing else I am thankful for this MLC because I would never have looked at my issues and tried to heal.

It seems crazy that it is almost the end of summer and the next two weekends we have two final summer trips planned....one is just a fun biking event and the other one a girl trip on bikes with overnight trail camping...we shall see how that goes, lol...

Just got back from my D and we got some wedding planning done - and it was an odd moment that I am sure happens in all mother daughter relationships.....the moment when you realize they are no longer your little child but grown adults with their own lives and their own families.....I wish my mom and grandmother were still around to share those feelings with as I am sure they went through the exact same ones.  Realizing the cycle of life and how your own life is heading towards the last decade or so and theirs is just beginning to blossom.

End of summer also means my birthday coming up and he always remembered and I am trying to prepare myself for him to not reach out or to not respond if he does simply say Happy Birthday and nothing else, but I guess I will cross that bridge when I get there.

To avoid too many monkeys in my brain for my birthday I am planning a fun filled day and dinner with friends.

Thank you again all for your support and I shall keep putting one foot in front of the other to eventually get out of the swamp
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#125: August 24, 2023, 07:09:55 PM
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To avoid too many monkeys in my brain for my birthday I am planning a fun filled day and dinner with friends.

Good idea that you're being proactive to make it the best for you.
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#126: August 25, 2023, 07:12:41 AM
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Still have not heard a single peep from him and that is the longest of no contact he has been in 6 years.

Reading your update, you are doing so very well building your life  ;). I was reminded of Ursa's famous line, trying to understand MLC is like trying to taste the color green. I still shake my head because Mr. xyzcf's actions are anything but how a normal person would respond. Although we have contact, it's all superficial fluff. I still find it very bizarre but give up expecting anything more from him.

Quote
The other night I had an odd dream about him ....he was working fast food somewhere and had long bleached hair in a ponytail and he was very much wanting to reconnect in my dream......I know sometimes dreams are just wishful thinking but I also think sometimes dreams are telling us something that is happening......I try not to think much about him and purposely change my thoughts when he creeps in because there is nothing I can do and ruminating is just wasting time and effort without results.

We cannot unfortunately control our dreams. Our unconscious attempts perhaps to try and make sense. Our relationship with our husband is unlike any other. There are layers upon layers of memories, feelings, deep connections that were a part of us for many many years. Can't control the dreams, in my own life, there is something that reminds me of him every day. I think this will always be the case. However, that doesn't stop me from experiencing life with all it's good and bad..but I do still miss him and the life we had and could have had together.

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End of summer also means my birthday coming up and he always remembered and I am trying to prepare myself for him to not reach out or to not respond if he does simply say Happy Birthday and nothing else, but I guess I will cross that bridge when I get there.

I found that I could "expect" certain behaviour from him based upon previous actions, but it really is rather erratic. There continues this contact on a regular basis and then times when he withdraws. It still sometimes affects me. That's ok. I am human, my emotions, my feelings, my needs are very intense....from the glimpses I get of him, there is a lack of emotions, feelings. Hard to put my finger on.

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he sure does not have any hope for himself and that is s sad but it is what it is. He is turning into his father which he always was so harsh on. I know I am not responsible nor can I help him, but it just makes me sad that he gave up on himself.

I am not really sure that we can make any kind of observation about their present state of life. I have not been a part of my husband's life for 14 years, I don't know his friends or much about what he spends his time doing so it's not possible for me to make any assumptions about him or his life. He seems fine...and a very different person than the man I knew. That's about all I can surmise about his present state.

Enjoy your fun weekend plans and have a great birthday. My daughter's wedding was almost 10 years ago and we celebrated with them recently for their upcoming 10th anniversary. It is wonderful for me to have a "son" as well as my daughter. I am grateful for them.
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« Last Edit: August 25, 2023, 07:14:42 AM by xyzcf »
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

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#127: September 18, 2023, 06:52:32 AM
Simply journaling to get this off my mind.....working with my therapist about all these abandonment issues and not being 'enough'.....honestly the best thing to come out of this crisis has been that I was finally 'forced' to go to therapy and address these issues that I have kept under the rug for way too long.
These are tough things to discover and even tougher to try to heal and make changes in how I feel about myself.

With my birthday just days away I was trying to figure out why my birthday always has caused me so much sadness and panic. I always envy people that find their birthdays joyful days to celebrate and be the star simply for existing. The conclusion I arrived at is that to me any birthday brings up overwhelming feelings of shame and guilt. Shame and guilt for not being better, for not measuring up, for not producing.....and I realize that is what I think other people will think....for not having been successful in my family's eyes. Not having went to university, not having a fancy house to show, not vacationing in fancy places, not having a herd of successful children....

What do I think success is? I feel success is breaking negative generational cycles - success to me is loving and supporting other humans and animals - success is kindness and gentleness in this harsh world we live in.  So, the question is...why do I put more emphasis on other peoples ideas of success than my own......

Do I think MLC is successful ? He has a university degree, he has a career, he has the looks and the fancy vehicle.....I absolutely do not think he is successful because he despises himself and is so lost that he drowns himself in alcohol.

The real work lies in learning to not measure myself in what other people's expectations are. Still along way to go, but I am determined to get there.

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#128: September 18, 2023, 08:38:55 AM
Well, some of this works sounds like it might be a really nice birthday gift to yourself  :)

I’m sure that others here will have been nodding along with much of what you wrote. That feeling of somehow having to ‘earn’ love. And sometimes the realisation that it was never possible to actually earn it no matter what you do.

Of course neither are about you at all. They are about how other people do (or don’t do) love, nothing at all about your inherent lovability. (Is that even a word?) When/if you doubt that, think of all the things and people and animals that you have felt deep love for…..they didn’t have to earn it, you just gave it bc you felt a sense of appreciation for what/who they are, for their existence. It’s a being not a doing thing, isn’t it?

My birthday next month as well so I am sending you anticipatory fellow birthday babe wishes from here xxxx
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#129: September 18, 2023, 04:10:00 PM
I always envy people that find their birthdays joyful days to celebrate and be the star simply for existing.

This is an interesting take I had never considered. It reminds me of the reason my mother gave for not going to New Year's Eve parties. I can't remember exactly how she put it, but it was something to the effect of a) people are just trying to forget whatever they did wrong last year and b) you can resolve to improve yourself any day you want, not just on New Year's. 

I did briefly google the history of birthday celebrations, and it seems to be a combination of some old and some relatively recent (100-200 years) ideas. I guess with there being other (i.e. national or religious) holidays, it's nice to have a specific day to appreciate a person, since we don't always remember to do that on a regular basis. But for ourselves, I imagine other milestones take on more importance as other life events occur, and we realize that we are changing continuously, not in one-year increments. Things like, "Hey, I made it two years from BD," or someone in recovery might think, "Hey, I haven't had a drink in two years." Those are bigger growth markers than simply existing for two more years.

It's also interesting when other people get surprised that you're not making a big deal out of it. "How come you're not doing anything for your birthday?" Because it's my "special day," I can do what I want, and sometimes doing nothing is the best thing you can do.

Sounds like you're on the path, Schratz. Early birthday wishes from me as well.

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#130: September 22, 2023, 11:59:56 AM
Well - not sure how I feel.
This is the first time in 26 years that he did not acknowledge my birthday. After all the hopeful exchanges at the beginning of the year…..I guess he no longer feels the connection and I need to accept that it really is over and done with.
This is tough and I did not see it coming.
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#131: September 22, 2023, 01:18:52 PM
I am sorry Schratz, it hurts when the thoughts that we have, the hope, the feelings that "if only" do not come to us. We remember different times, when our birthday was celebrated, when they treated us as being special and loved and we were fine, better than fine.

There is a part of my brain that will never give up those memories and somehow I have turned them from thinking that things could be like that again, to being glad that I have the memories of those good times...it's a shift in my way of thinking, it helps to decrease any anxiety I still have over will he/won't he?

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I need to accept that it really is over and done with.

This is the hard thing. They were done even before BD and they do not look back...superficially perhaps by tiny gestures that we think mean something. If they get through their crisis, they may still be done and if they get through their crisis and reconnect, the old is over...it is the past....it would require something new to build.

In our hearts, we are "not done"...this is not what we wanted, this is not the way it is supposed to be and so we struggle with that for a very long while.

For me, after many attempts..I understood..he does not want me in his life. He does not include me in his life. I am still "someone" to him but his life is filled with many other people and things that I am not a part of. That door is closed shut.

How hard it is to come to this realization, but in fact, it is the truth in this moment.....in my present day, and for several years, he does not want me in his life.

You will have your own thoughts and feelings about him, as we all do. That is fine..there is no timetable for grief.

I think, I started adding together some very hurtful things that he had been doing and the glass started to overflow and I just came to the realization "enough". Even though he still communicates with me, there is no meaning to his contact with me.

I am sorry, this is your birthday and meant to be a good day, a happy day...and it is spoiled by the hope that he would have texted or emailed with a Happy Birthday wish...I am sorry, because being ignored by one that we loved so deeply is very disturbing.

Steps Schrartz...you keep taking steps forward, try not to look back too often..actually, try not even to look too far ahead....breath, look at nature, surround yourself with people who care about you, who are kind to you.......

I have seen you do this, I have seen you come a very long way...today is a set back...there are many days I "dislike" and I wish these dates did not bother me but they do and always will....their hearts are cold, their inability to respond is any normal way is shattered.....that is the reality of their crisis...and we suffer...but in the end...we are in a better place.

Happy Birthday Schratz....may you remember that you were born for a reason and that you are wonderful, likeable, loveable and appreciated by many many people.
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« Last Edit: September 22, 2023, 01:21:05 PM by xyzcf »
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

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#132: September 22, 2023, 01:44:12 PM
Xyzcf said it well, 66.
I am sorry too. Feel how you feel, don’t be afraid of that, let it be a door that closes and opens to better times and other birthdays.

Right now, you are probably conscious of your feelings of loss but with time, I hope you will come to see - as we do - that the real loser is him. That the absence of a message is in reality the absence of a small crumb, a ritual nod, not the kind of real relationship you want and deserve. You have lost a broken poorly-functioning man…but you get to keep you. And you are rather marvellous.
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#133: September 22, 2023, 05:37:48 PM
Thank you xy and Treasur….

It has been a long and tough day …..so many emotions and trying to realize that a meaningless Happy Birthday wouldn’t have meant anything in reality but only in my mind. I have pretended for 6 + years that there was hope because I didn’t think I could handle accepting that it was truly done. Not sure how to go on from here, but I will figure it out.
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#134: September 22, 2023, 07:06:09 PM
I was at a point where I was functioning but could not feel joy. I knew what joy was supposed to feel like, but life was just kind of blah. Contact with him would give me a momentary "buzz"...but you know what we always preach "no expectations".

Personally, I am not "done" and don't think I will ever say I am done. I do not know what lies ahead, but he is still welcomed in my life..that's up to him...but, I don't fret about it the way I once did..and since we do have contact, I have become much calmer and less wondering about what that contact means....example, after taking care of him from his surgery, he sent me a dozen yellow roses..our wedding flowers and what he gave me for every special occasion.....I do not believe he did it to hurt me.....he is clueless as to how things can affect me.

And that is "expected" because we have not been together for a very long time so he has little idea of how I have changed.

Anyway, as you know, we have no idea what they are thinking and their distance really makes no sense....but to them, there could be 1000 reasons why they cannot act in a kind way...that is the way it is for them. We have no idea if they are happy or not....

You might be someone who needs a final "this is it" moment...you may not ever want any type of contact with him again and that's your right. Do what is best for you.

If that means not opening any texts or emails from him..if that will bring peace and closure to you....then this is your decision and is in your control.

The thing is, no one has the right to ruin our special days....they are only men, and not very good men at that. I know it hurts...it might always hurt because it was a good life and a wonderful love....but it can also destroy us.....and I think that the love that was so special deserves a better ending then us never recovering.

I have talked alot about the therapy I received, the hard work I did over 2 1/2 years.....it didn't take that long to feel better, maybe 6 months but this was 8 years after BD and I was stuck.

I cannot say what will trigger something in you that will turn off the intensity of the hurt and bring you to another place, a peaceful place where you can grow and live calmly and without the constant "downer" that their continual craziness does to us.

But I do know that you will find your way there.

((((HUGS))))))
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#135: September 22, 2023, 11:28:51 PM
Thank you xy and Treasur….

It has been a long and tough day …..so many emotions and trying to realize that a meaningless Happy Birthday wouldn’t have meant anything in reality but only in my mind. I have pretended for 6 + years that there was hope because I didn’t think I could handle accepting that it was truly done. Not sure how to go on from here, but I will figure it out.

I have no doubt that you will.

My way, in case it helps, seemed to be a kind of bereavement thing for the lack of a better term. I can’t experience birthdays or Christmas in the way that i once did….the people who were part of that are gone, the people for whom my birthday really mattered are gone. I wish I could and I wish they weren’t, but it is as it is. I found it a relief tbh to stop feeling the need to try to get that back or recreate it. But I also accept that some days in the year my skin is a little thinner than others so I am especially gentle with myself on those days. I do think there’s a time - perhaps it never entirely quite leaves - when the dread of loss, of the finality of it, keeps one foot in the past. Usually it’s a toe lol….but on particular days, it’s a foot. Sometimes a leg  :)

Imho that turns out to be pretty normal whenever I have spoken to other folks who have lived with big griefs. The world moves forward, you move forward, and there is still a little pocket with those grief pebbles in it that rattles louder on particular days. We find ways to live with the rattle and, if we are fortunate, we have other humans around us who respect that this is what happens sometimes.

Next month I have a big number birthday, the kind of birthday which in the past would have been the cause for a big party, a special trip, a family dinner. Off and on for a few months I have mused on what, if anything, I wanted to do to mark it….and each time I considered it, I came up with nothing. So I decided to do nothing and trust that inspiration might strike and it was ok if it didn’t. Yet I feel very grateful indeed that i survived the last few years to be here to have that birthday, so it’s an odd set of pebbles. And do you know what happened? An old friend reached out to ask if he could treat me to a swanky London lunch. And another asked if i was free to go to an art show that evening in London. And another if I was free to go to an artisan market and have brunch the weekend after my birthday. So, before I knew it, there was a celebratory plan! It isn’t the same, of course it isn’t, but my goodness I feel touched that these other humans even remember my birthday and want to mark it when my mother, my father and my once beloved are no longer here in my life to do so. So, yes, you will find your own way to live after loss, my friend, and yes it’s different but it is not nothing.

On a side note but slightly linked, I was having a conversation with a chum who has never been married (long story, a variety of reasons) and who is still actively looking for that kind of closeness. She is a little older than me and of course, at our age, humans come with long previous lives and loves, even good nice humans. What struck me in listening to hear talk about her adventures in dating land is that there is something particular about what it is like to share decades of life with another human that my friend does not really get….and that it still feels like a gift to me to have had that experience, that it can’t be replaced with new loves no matter how shiny bc they are inherently different. Not better or worse necessarily, but essentially different. And that rationally that is as true for my xh as it is for me, that it’s a real loss for both of us even if one chose it and one did not. So, sometimes, the pebbles in my pocket are also about gratitude as well as loss if that makes sense.
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#136: September 23, 2023, 01:40:05 PM
I hope you are feeling better today. I often do once the day has past and I get my footing again, sometimes it takes a bit....some things hurt more than others. I hope today is a better day.
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#137: September 25, 2023, 05:53:47 AM
Thank you XY for checking ..... it took me a couple of days to reel back from this one.

This threw me more off balance than the canceled date earlier this year. And some days I guess I just cannot wrap my head around this man that I have known for 30 years has turned into a coward and all integrity was thrown out with BD.

And I do realize that I only get thrown off kilter due to my own issues of continuing to hope. Hope has always been a survival tactic I had to adopt in childhood when reality was just too grim to fathom and it is difficult to abandon such tactics no matter how counter productive they are in my adult life.

Today I am just sad....sad for him being on such a destructive path and sad for me for having to bury my closest connection to any human being.

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....they are only men, and not very good men at that. I know it hurts...it might always hurt because it was a good life and a wonderful love....but it can also destroy us.....and I think that the love that was so special deserves a better ending then us never recovering.

It does deserve a better ending....I watched my mother never recovering and it broke my heart for her and I have been fighting and trying to not let it destroy me, but if I am honest, a part of me will never recover from this, but I must not give up on life all together.

So, for today and right now, I am trying to stay in the present moment, not focusing on the past or the future.

With the darker season approaching and me usually falling into deeper depression, I have made my first appointment with an acupuncturist to see if that in addition to therapy will help me find light.
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#138: September 25, 2023, 06:30:01 AM
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And I do realize that I only get thrown off kilter due to my own issues of continuing to hope. Hope has always been a survival tactic I had to adopt in childhood when reality was just too grim to fathom and it is difficult to abandon such tactics no matter how counter productive they are in my adult life.

Perhaps it depends on what the "hope" is for or if it is possible to have hope and yet understand that the outcome might still not be the one you desired. I personally would not like to live with out hope, in many aspects of my life, especially as I am aging and dealing with some medical issues....I think hope can also be a positive thing because without it, the world becomes a very dismal place.

But I see how it can damage us, clinging too hard to the one and only outcome that we feel will alleviate all the pain, and make everything better. Letting go of the outcome, whatever that might be, accepting that this person is no longer the man you were married to, letting go of all expectations is how I survive, but always allowing for some hope.

Most likely this comes from my faith. Although I often question why God has not answered my prayers, my faith directs me in a couple of ways. To be kind to my husband (love one another as I have loved you)  that God is in charge, that I can trust God's plan for my life (that's a hard one since I would like to be in charge) and that nothing is impossible for God.

I have recently become aware of several friends whose husbands have been institutionalized with dementia, or have died from cancer. They have lost their husbands too....somehow, we all get to adjust to losing the person who was so very important to our life.

I also have a few friends whose husbands have become very unkind, and they are terribly hurt by spouses who treat them poorly....

Finally, after many many years, I "learned"..he does not want me in his life. Even with the contact that we have, he does not want me...and so I guess after many many times of "hoping" I walk away. There is still sadness, other old timers I have spoken to also say that they still are sad even those in other relationships..... it never completely goes away.

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It does deserve a better ending....I watched my mother never recovering and it broke my heart for her and I have been fighting and trying to not let it destroy me, but if I am honest, a part of me will never recover from this, but I must not give up on life all together.

So, for today and right now, I am trying to stay in the present moment, not focusing on the past or the future.

I am sorry that your mother never "recovered"...one thing I wanted for my daughter was for her to know that I am ok...that this did not destroy me. I have a. busy and active life, she sees that and she is not "worried" about me the way she once was. She also sees this "different" father and his "weirdness". It's a lesson I have for her....that even with hardship, there is a way to recover, there is place for joy.


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With the darker season approaching and me usually falling into deeper depression, I have made my first appointment with an acupuncturist to see if that in addition to therapy will help me find light.

I am presently getting acupuncture for a medical condition and I also find it very relaxing. I went for acupuncture for quite a while after BD. I hope it brings you some relief.

One reason I have stayed in Colorado is that there are more than 300 days of sunshine a year. Having lived most of my life in Canada, the gloominess did affect me, it affects my daughter as well as many other of my friends there. Unfortunately that is not an option for everyone but since I was sent back here and had a house here, I am glad most days that I stayed.....the downside is being so far away from my daughter.

Rambling a bit...just wanted you to know that you are not alone in feeling the way that you do. It's hard to share with others who don't understand why we can't just get over it. So share here, with people who totally understand why this is so very very hard.



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« Last Edit: September 25, 2023, 06:33:50 AM by xyzcf »
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

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#139: September 26, 2023, 06:36:15 AM
Thank again you XY...your words always bring me comfort because we have a lot in common and it makes me feel less alone with these feelings.

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Finally, after many many years, I "learned"...he does not want me in his life. Even with the contact that we have, he does not want me...and so I guess after many many times of "hoping" I walk away. There is still sadness, other old timers I have spoken to also say that they still are sad even those in other relationships..... it never completely goes away

That is one thing I keep reminding myself of, that he does not want me in his life...that it is his choice and I must accept that no matter how much sadness that brings me. Nothing I can do or say that would "fix" that and that is a hard pill to swallow for a 'Fixer'. It is still a daily battle not to reach out......but I know that all it would bring is more hurt, more confusion and more sadness.

I had done well to remove the focus off him but I guess certain triggers will always remain...my mother dealt with the trigger dates by getting drunk to the point of passing out and while I understand why she did, I do not want to follow her footsteps. My daughter does not deserve to carry my pain, so I need to find a way to carry my pain by myself without letting it destroy me.

I am hoping that one day I will get to the point that you are at, looking at others losing their spouses to illness as sort of similar grief. At this point I still look at those couples and my heart breaks for them and for my MLC that he has wasted so many years and is still not happy. 

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I went for acupuncture for quite a while after BD.
May I ask if it helped you feel less traumatized ? My body is still in constant Fight or Flight mode and it is so exhausting......




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#140: September 26, 2023, 06:52:23 AM
S66- So much good advice and feedback you are getting.

You know I am a hopeful person as I think most LBS are. Our characters love deeply and fight for our relationships. What really has helped me is to not give up hope for him and his recovery, but not focus on the recovery in terms of US, but for HIM. Until he works on himself what you had or can have ( as it would change) is not possible.

I think  we stay stuck in the loss of what we had and that is gone and it can never be repaired, PERIOD!! Anything that may come back together will be NEW. This allowed me to totally finally let go. Let him live his life. Hope he finds his way. It brought me to a place to realize I am so fortunate to be ME in this scenario. Doesn’t change having moments of sadness of what is lost, but it does allow you to realize you had no control of it then or now. Most of our pain comes from trying to still control the outcome. Which we have no control over, except in our own life.
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There is almost something harder about someone being alive and having to lose what you believed to be true of them than someone actually dying.

Indefatigability - determined to do or achieve something; firmness of purpose
perspicacity- a clarity of vision or intellect which provides a deep understanding and insight

Married July 1991
Jan 2018 BD1 moved out I filed for Div/ H stopped it
Oct 2018 moved back
Oct 2020 BD2
Feb 2021 Div-29 1/2 years
July 2021 Married OW
Feb 2022  XH fired
May 2023 went NC after telling XH we could not be friends
Aug 2023 XH moves w/o OWife

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TRUST IN WHAT MAY OR MAY NOT COME
#141: October 03, 2023, 11:08:58 PM
I've been off the forum for a bit.  I was happy to see that you are still posting here.  I'm sorry that he did not reach out on your birthday.  Those pesky expectations get us every time.  Sending hugs.
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Survival Instructions for Newbies

The Apology Every LBS Deserves

My Journey

"Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass - it's about learning to dance in the rain."

"Don't become a container for bitterness.  It's a toxin that destroys what it's carried in."

S
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TRUST IN WHAT MAY OR MAY NOT COME
#142: October 23, 2023, 07:03:36 AM
Thank you Faith and Mad...

Just journaling a bit.....so, something odd has been happening ......I no longer hope that he will find his way out of this. Do I think he will ? Also not sure.....but what I am sure is that each and every single day he decides what to do and not do in his life and I am not part of his thought process and that is okay.
What is not okay is for me to base my emotional well being on his decisions. And it has not even been a focused decision, last week I just realized that I no longer hope for him to come back.

Every time my mind still heads in his direction, I try to redirect and no longer obsess or allow myself to go there.
Still working in therapy and had some eye opening realizations about me feeling I have to 'earn' my existence.
Also started Acupuncture last week and after the first session I had this odd feeling of peace in my mind and heart. Not sure I had ever felt that.

I saw a great talk by someone that explained why we suffer and why we do not feel enough at times......he said it comes down to three questions we must ask ourselves.....Do we focus on what we have or do we focus on what is missing.........Do we focus on what we cannot control or do we focus on what we can control......and Do we focus on the past, the future or the present.  And if I honestly answer those three questions, since BD I have focused on what is missing, what I cannot control and the past.  And the only one that can change that focus is me.

I know none of this is new, you have tried to tell me, but somehow it just clicked last week. So for now, I am in a good place, a place filled with eagerness to change my focus and to keep learning in therapy and to find more peace within me.
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Me 53
H 51
AD 22 from previous R
Known H since 1993
Together since 2000
BD 06/21/2017
OW High School Sweetheart lives 4 hrs away

M
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TRUST IN WHAT MAY OR MAY NOT COME
#143: October 23, 2023, 05:48:45 PM
That’s how it happens. You don’t realize little by little you are healing and then one day you realize you are detached more and more and accepting of where you are. I still hope my XH finds his way because what affects our kids together and grandson affects me, but I no longer hope for reconciliation. More I hope he can find his way and we can be some what friends again, but more importantly that he becomes his childrens father again. The good thing is you focusing and redirecting your attention to you. You dont have to decide anything in stone. You never know where life will lead you. Just like life changed on a dime with this MLC it can chnage on a dime again.
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There is almost something harder about someone being alive and having to lose what you believed to be true of them than someone actually dying.

Indefatigability - determined to do or achieve something; firmness of purpose
perspicacity- a clarity of vision or intellect which provides a deep understanding and insight

Married July 1991
Jan 2018 BD1 moved out I filed for Div/ H stopped it
Oct 2018 moved back
Oct 2020 BD2
Feb 2021 Div-29 1/2 years
July 2021 Married OW
Feb 2022  XH fired
May 2023 went NC after telling XH we could not be friends
Aug 2023 XH moves w/o OWife

R
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TRUST IN WHAT MAY OR MAY NOT COME
#144: October 23, 2023, 05:54:26 PM
Quote
What is not okay is for me to base my emotional well being on his decisions.

Truth, that.
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Re: TRUST IN WHAT MAY OR MAY NOT COME
#145: October 23, 2023, 06:12:00 PM
Gratitude, energy towards what you can control and being in the present are a great mindset. May this carry you forward.
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me 51
H 51
M 27
BD 1/15/ 10 then BD 8/21/10
D final 8/13

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TRUST IN WHAT MAY OR MAY NOT COME
#146: November 05, 2023, 01:46:25 PM
I saw a great talk by someone that explained why we suffer and why we do not feel enough at times......he said it comes down to three questions we must ask ourselves.....Do we focus on what we have or do we focus on what is missing.........Do we focus on what we cannot control or do we focus on what we can control......and Do we focus on the past, the future or the present.  And if I honestly answer those three questions, since BD I have focused on what is missing, what I cannot control and the past.  And the only one that can change that focus is me.

I know none of this is new, you have tried to tell me, but somehow it just clicked last week. So for now, I am in a good place, a place filled with eagerness to change my focus and to keep learning in therapy and to find more peace within me.

Yes!!!

I hope you are continuing to find peace and the good things that still exist in your life right now.
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Survival Instructions for Newbies

The Apology Every LBS Deserves

My Journey

"Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass - it's about learning to dance in the rain."

"Don't become a container for bitterness.  It's a toxin that destroys what it's carried in."

S
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 1707
  • Gender: Female
TRUST IN WHAT MAY OR MAY NOT COME
#147: January 08, 2024, 06:26:43 AM
Just checking in...

MLC was so consistent with initiating contact every 6 weeks for 6 years. Since March of last year not a single word or contact. Of course some days it still spins in my head on why the sudden change but then I remind myself that it doe snot matter why and that I have no control over that. Christmas was a tad different this year as I spent it at the ER with my daughter as she was in such terrible pain and dehydrated from a vicious virus. She is much better now and we still enjoyed her visit as always. She no longer mentions him (MLC) at all and I do not either - we are focusing ahead and on things that bring us joy.

As usual these darker month wreak havoc on my depression but that will all balance out again once warmer weather and longer days get here. D wedding is coming up in a few months and after that they will start looking to buy a house. This is really exciting because once they are permanently settled I can find me an appartment nearby and get a fresh start on everything.

I am still focusing on 'intentional living' as I love that phrase and each morning I only focus on this present day and how to make the best of it. This takes so much pressure off one's mind and I don't feel like I have to have solutions and plans for everything that may or may not happen. All in all I am in a better mental space regarding MLC and at this point I no longer focus on it or wish for a certain outcome...it is what it is.

I hope everyone had a good holiday season and is excited about the new year and all the new things to come.

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Me 53
H 51
AD 22 from previous R
Known H since 1993
Together since 2000
BD 06/21/2017
OW High School Sweetheart lives 4 hrs away

M
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TRUST IN WHAT MAY OR MAY NOT COME
#148: January 08, 2024, 11:31:09 AM
So glad your daughter is ok. I am with you. I have really been doing so good, but yesterday had a dip, but I also think the gloomy winter weather adds to it.  I was just thinking today. 4 more months and I can swim again!!!
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There is almost something harder about someone being alive and having to lose what you believed to be true of them than someone actually dying.

Indefatigability - determined to do or achieve something; firmness of purpose
perspicacity- a clarity of vision or intellect which provides a deep understanding and insight

Married July 1991
Jan 2018 BD1 moved out I filed for Div/ H stopped it
Oct 2018 moved back
Oct 2020 BD2
Feb 2021 Div-29 1/2 years
July 2021 Married OW
Feb 2022  XH fired
May 2023 went NC after telling XH we could not be friends
Aug 2023 XH moves w/o OWife

E
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  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 595
  • Gender: Female
TRUST IN WHAT MAY OR MAY NOT COME
#149: January 08, 2024, 01:49:09 PM
What a great update S66. :) Excited for you re your D’s wedding and the possibility of that completely fresh start in a new place for you. It has a great feel about it. 

‘Intentional living’, yes, I think that’s what I’m also doing. It’s not that all the pain and confusion goes away or diminishes. Instead we grow a new life around it so eventually it seems less significant. I guess it’s the same as that ‘grief’ meme thingy that goes around (with the ball in the box/jar where the box/jar gets bigger rather than the ball shrinking). Of course a big part of what we go through IS grief. Just with the added great big dollops of WTF-ness confusion on top! I don’t know about for you, but for me I feel like I’m still in the middle of transitioning to that new life. If I look one way I see the new life before me. But I can still look the other way and the old life is still not that far behind. It’s getting further away all the time though. And I can ‘look’ at some stuff now without the acute pain (it’s still not always comfortable, but it doesn’t have the sharp edges it used to have). I really try now to NOT look, or at least not dwell, on that past. It takes work but it seems worth it.

So yes, I’m also finding that ‘intentionally living’  is the best way to move forward. I’m so glad you’re also having good results. Here’s to a bright 2024. Please let us know how the wedding planning/wedding/apartment shopping go!
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M: 53 (48 @ BD), H: 55 (51 @ BD); Married 20yrs, together 23yrs
D: 24 (19 @ BD), D: 22 (17 @ BD), 'Extra D': 22 (17 @ BD)
BD (that I didn't recognise as such) Easter 2018
BD 9th Sep 2018
OW - he (supposedly) met her in the pub a week before BD, told me about her a week after BD. Thinks 'their planets have collided' because 'their eyes met across the room' and they had an 'instant connection'. Lives with her. Is building a life with her.
Jun 20: H plans to buy a block of land and build a house with her (never happens).
May 22: Movement... (likely T&G? Time will tell I guess)
May 23: Yep, definitely a T&G last year. Still have contact but very minimal. He is a long way away from me these days. He doesn't seem particularly happy in his new life... but he's still there soooo....

 

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