[OldPilot]

New thread

2nd one
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=10272.0


First one
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=10191.0

From previous thead

Great comments from Limitless and Stayed - everyone go back and read them and comment here please.

[Mitzpah]

I came to accept what happened.  Am I still angry/sad about it?  At times, yes.  Sometimes I feel a bit bitter, if I am completely honest.

When I read the squabbles here on this board, it seems that some feel that it damages their stand to have a difference of opinion voiced.  Standing is a personal decision....  If you choose to Stand, do it.  It doesn't matter what anyone else's situation or solution is or was.  If you choose to move one...move on.  That's fine.  We all have the rights and abilities to choose for ourselves.

I agree entirely with this. Acceptance is key! Sometimes it doesn't come very gracefully but it comes, eventually!

Standing is very much a personal decision. I know that some people close to me in RL don't agree with my decision, however, they have learnt that I have the right to decide how I lead my life! My boundary setting 

This was not a good time for any of us.  That being said, I can't bare the idea of any LBS being left behind, stuck in a downward spiral of pain and grief.  I will resort to any tactic to prevent that.  I haven't been on the forum for a long time and now remember clearly why I left. 

I agree Stayed, that this has not been a good time in our lives. Yes, we absolutely need to rise out the downward spiral of pain and grief. Life is a gift to be thoroughly enjoyed, not wasted in bitterness and resentment.
Some of us take a little longer than others (ok, some take a lot longer) to find the way out. Part of coming to this site is a will to find a way forward.

I think the beauty of this site is that it offers a helping hand to find the tools that lift people up. Not everybody finds solace in religion and on this site we have many schools of thought to provide comfort and help at a most distressing time of life. I think we all need to respect how each one of us finds acceptance and peace as we go forward on this beautiful adventure of life, rudely interrupted by a severe crisis.

MLC is not the first life crisis I have faced, it is the one that has really knocked me down, on the other hand, the other crisis (deaths, severe accidents, mental health issues in close family, church problems) that have appeared since, have been navigateable (sp?) due to knowledge acquired during my h.'s MLC. I am still learning!

I hope you are all enjoying your day and finding joy in life

[31andcounting]

Old Timer jumping on board

(hugs)
31

[Acorn]

A New Timer jumping aboard to learn!

[strawberry]

 Well, Lisa, given what I wrote was on no way intended to be an attack, so I guess it’s good you didn’t find it up to snuff as one.  I sincerely apologize if you felt it was an attack rather than the depisscusion it was meant to be.

I’m a newbie to this forum (though I now realize he’s been in MLC for years).  I come to this forum for support and advice because RL and therapists were unable to understand why I didn’t just file for D and tell H to go F himself the day he moved out.  I very much appreciate honesty and tough love.  But both can be delivered with compassion and tact.  Nah’s Post was perfection.

I’ve avoided posting to these threads unless I have a question for those that have been around for a while since I doubt I can add much of worth, but I read them as I find the more informative than my boring thread.

I believe that some of you have some less than positive history with MBIB, but keep in mind that there are people new to this process reading these threads like their sanity depends on it and not just the person you are addressing.  I would urge you to be honest, and be blunt even if necessary, but maybe try to do it in a helpful way and keep in mind that tone almost never comes across correctly in text.  Telling someone they don’t deserve or apprieciate their MLC spouse was shocking and unnecessary IMHO.

[Ready2Transform]

One of the things that really attracted me to this site in 2012 was the diversity. From learning to pray novenas from xyzcf and mitzpah to getting straight talk that I didn't always want to hear from stayed, the influence and unique stance of each person here is what sets this environment apart. I came in on the tail end of HB's time here and gained comfort from some of her writings as well as the creative way RCR chose to frame this incredibly difficult journey we are all on. I wish some of you newbies could have the Friday night comedy gab sessions on MammaBear's thread, Wed2HimForever's magical way with storytelling through gifs, and of course, DGU's photographic reference ability to the articles.

Make no mistake, if you're not reading the archives, you're not getting everything you can out of this forum. There has been EVERY form of healing, reconciled or not. And some of everyone's story will resonate with you, because we have all at least lived one day, our BDs, the exact same way.

Wonder dealt with a high energy replayer with a very present OW, and did so with grace and strength. Stayed provided tools and the "snap, snap!" with the virtual rubberband so many of us could use when we are tempted to jump down rabbit holes with no bottoms.

I'm very glad to see LisaLives back here too. I did exactly what she hypothetically suggested. I have a friend who became a stander last year after her H had an affair. Both had been good friends of mine who knew my story inside and out, and he also knew my xH and supported me. She was VERY pushy for me to file back in 2012 and get xH out of my life. Even after her own BD, she still felt our situations were very different, and that there was hope in her situation where there was none in mine. I told her I would support her no matter what, but implored her to look at how things turned out for me and consider what would be best in the big picture. Marriage as a concept was not more important that my friend avoiding the same level of life destruction I've gone through.

It took over a year, but she has now decided to pursue divorce. I'm glad. I really like her H, but it is going to get much worse before it gets better, and in the grand scheme, he will further destroy her life. A true friend is an honest one. And that may be a 'bad' friend to her H, but it is what it is, and I got exactly what LisaLives meant. I don't think she was trying to be brutal to anyone. I think she was being honest from her perspective, as we all are.

Objectivity and maturity are things I have gained throughout this situation. Marriage is no longer a storybook institution. My xH was my very best friend. That is a beautiful thing that happened in the past. But it's not a movie, and I couldn't save him. I am not bitter about that, but boy am I different. In some ways good, in other ways I'm getting used to and will have to accept.

Thank you to all who have helped with that.

[OldPilot]

My xH was my very best friend. That is a beautiful thing that happened in the past.
But it's not a movie, and I couldn't save him.

Here is the thing for newbies - there is NO ONE on this forum that can SAVE their spouses.

You have to leave that up to a higher power.

I remember Hearts Blessing telling me this and thinking she was religious.

She wasnt  but used god a lot in her writing - I now understand why.

[LisaLives]

How is MammaBear, gosh she was funny... 

[LisaLives]

HB regularly said she talked to God, for real, doesn't that make her religious?  I was afraid she might be delusional, but as a very non-religious person did not feel it was my place to comment or judge! 

[Thunder]

I think HB was pretty much gone when I got here.  I knew her on another site I joined first.
She always gave good advice.   

[Onward]

A middle-old timer here. I’ve hesitated to post on this thread for several reasons.

The primary reason is that I have, more than once, been on the receiving end of arguments with a cadre of members that tipped far over the line between advice and personal attack. So I’m not particularly keen to invite that again.

The second reason is that, after 4 years on this board, my lived experience is that bullying behaviour is defended with the rationale that  “well, that’s so-and-so being so and so, and sure they are tough some times, but they also help, so that’s OK”.  Which basically excuses the behaviour because the end justifies the means.

But the end does not justify the means.

Particularly not on a forum where many people have already suffered relationship trauma, and have had to learn to discern signs of abuse, including emotional abuse.

Make no mistake, a personal attack is emotional abuse.

What’s a personal attack?
The Urban Dictionary has a pretty good definition, which identifies it as a logical fallacy that demeans your opponent instead of refuting their argument.

Personal attacks include challenges that question someone’s intelligence, values, integrity, motivations, decisions and so forth.

I think it is more than fair to say some of the conversation on the recently closed thread was replete with personal attacks.

I would also argue that using any means possible to get someone to do something in the way and timeline you think they should does not come from a spirit of helping others; it speaks to imposing one’s own will and choices on others.

It is stated over and over and over again on this forum that we cannot save our spouses: that we need to let them go.

It follows, then, that the same detachment to an outcome or timeline and letting go of the need to have LBS’ follow a particular path to healing would also apply.

There is tremendous room for many different views, and experiences and approaches on this forum.  But I for one continue to hope that behaviour that is unkind, judgemental, psychologically damaging or personally attacking and/or demeaning is seen for what it is without excuse or encouragement.

[Wonder no more]

Hi Stayed,  Yes I'm that Wonder lol.  Doing great.  Sold the boat in the islands and bought a place in Marathon in the Florida Keys.  Spend half the year there and the summer, in NJ.  H and I are great.  Took us a few years to feel truly feel reconciled (think I took longer than him ) The last couple of years have been amazing.  I am truly thankful to this site and all of you who read my story and helped me through the worst period of my life.  Can't believe it's been 8 years.  I never asked for this experience but I'm a better person for surviving it.  Our endings aren't all the same but we are all successful survivors.  I know I would have made a great life for myself even if my H did not return to me because of this site. There are so many people on this forum now, it is easy for an "old timer" to get lost.   Glad this thread was started even with a few bumps ... that's life.

[serenity]

I totally agree Onward

X

[Anjae]

When I first come here I only read the main site articles and the board for months. HB was around at the time. Her God talk was a little strange to me. When I become part of the board she once told me God or the Universe were the same thing. That made it easy for me, since for me it is the Universe. I talk to the Universe, but I am not religious.

I think being religious means one has/follows a religion. I know people who believe in God but do not follow any religion, therefore there are not religious. I was under the impression HB was a Catholic, but maybe she isn't.

We all know we cannot safe the MCLer. That is not obvious at BD, but for those who come here it soon becomes clear.

As for "stuck", I think "stuck" is part of many LBS journey. Regarding the time it takes a LBS for this that or those, that is personal. We're all different, we're all dealing with different situations.

Things have changed on HS because, as time goes by, we leaned that many MLC take a very long and now there are lots of midle-timers or old-timers in a new relationship or marriage. That was not the case when I arrived here.

As for standing or not standing. Everyone here is an adult. Aside from a grace period, during which I think standing allows the LBS roomto process what has happened, it is up to each of us to decide what we want. Stand, don't stand and have a new relationship/marriage, don't stand and don't want a relationship/marriage.

[xyzcf]

Might I ask what difference it makes if a person is religious or believes in God or doesn't?

I am sorry but the comments about my being a "religious zealot" , the "warning from Lisa "The following post may be offensive to lifetime standers, social and religious conservatives" and now discussion about Heartsblessing's beliefs in God or the Universe/ was she a Catholic? did she talk to God?....seem a bit strange to me.

RCR's articles talk about God in several places:

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/stand.html

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/self-focus_assurances_belief-and-believe_god-higher-power.

htmlhttps://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/self-focus_assurances_faith.html

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/self-focus_releasers_acceptance_accepting-sin.html

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/self-focus_releasers_acceptance_the-nature-of-suffering.html

I totally agree with Anjae that each one of us proceeds along our own journey at our own pace. This is most likely determined by many factors, the duration of our marriage, whether or not we experienced joy and happiness in our marriages, the type of MLCer, our own childhood and FOO issues, whether we receive therapy and if that therapist is a good fit or not, our cultural and religious beliefs (or not), our financial situation, amount of supports we have in our lives, our mental health prior to BD.....

We can learn from one another, we can share our experiences and we can do so with respect which is usually the case on HS.

Many HS members have a faith life, and many do not..it is a very individual thing. I have never seen anyone try and push religion on any other member but I do sense that talking about God makes others uncomfortable.

Just my thoughts this afternoon on a rather sensitive topic.

[Anjae]

I have never seen anyone try and push religion on any other member but I do sense that talking about God makes others uncomfortable.

To me it is just strange because it is something that pretty much only happens in HS when it comes to my life. Strange is different than uncomfortable.

The way many Americans always mention/talk about God is very peculiar to me. We don't do that. Public figures or politians over here do not talk about/mention God.

In private it is also an issue that does not get mentioned much.

[Unraveled]

I follow all of your stories on a daily basis but don't really post much.

It is distressing to see these topics get so out of hand and it happens on the "group" threads and the individual threads.  I've posted things in a genuine desire to help others and seen very defensive responses that make me not want to post, at least to those people.  For what it is worth I think the perspectives of Lisa, Stayed, and Wonder are very much needed on this site.  While rallying around someone who is hurting is a good thing, so is giving them another way to look at their pain or other options for dealing with their situations, or maybe, uncomfortably, bringing a spotlight to their own actions.  I realize so much for myself that all the reasons I had for doing certain things or not doing things, no matter how well-intentioned, were often just excuses made from fear.  I finally forced an active process that has brought me significantly more peace than doing nothing, but that is just me.  I wish I had listened to the folks who encouraged me to do that much earlier.

I've noticed there are a group of people, I think with the best of intentions, who swarm in when they feel someone is attacking, when quite often I think it is just someone legitimately trying to offer another perspective.  Personally, I think the solution to a lot of this stuff is to let the "victim" decide if it is an attack or not.  Let them respond, before others swarm to the rescue.  As a co-dependent who is trying to work on curing that, I guess I just tend to see that sort of response in others.

I prefer to think of this kind of place as a marketplace of ideas.  The antidote for speech you don't like in the marketplace of ideas is not silencing the speech, it's more speech.  Silence is censorship.  We let the Nazis march on Skokie not because we believe in their cause, but allowing them to do so makes it safe for all of us to express our ideas (and no, I'm not calling anyone here a Nazi).

While ad hominem attacks are never appropriate, how about being accepting of different perspectives or making studied, rather than personal, responses.

[turtleduck99]

I love HB and her approach.  I would say she is faithful not religious.   Religious suggests that she is ritualistic, faithful suggests that she trusts in a higher power.
Being faithful has kept me strong.
That being said, I have learned so very much from everyone.   What we are dealing with is foreign...... And sometimes another point of view sure helps to bring life back into focus.
My H is going off the deep end right now.  I never thought I would see him self destruct, but he's doing it.   So, I read threads and seek advice.   Thank you all. Because You are helping me to cope.

[1trouble]

Having been on this board a mere three years I don't call myself an old timer by any means

But as an observer of the way I have seen this discussion going (and sadly a few others over the past few years}, I want to comment

I would say that just in real life we gravitate toward people with whom we share similar views and those we feel comfortable with , BUT it doesn't mean those we don't feel comfortable with are wrong, they are just different and share different views...

AND just like in real life there are also those who are very divisive and like to stir up trouble ….

What I see on this thread is those dynamics playing out

BUT we should remember....We are all part of a unique and very painful club and its such a shame that we don't remember that.

NO-ONE can understand or judge anyone because we do not know or live anyone's lives but our own.
If someone is asking for support we need to give it.
If someone is asking for advice we need to give it BUT temper it and remember what a responsibility that is because the person maybe particularly vulnerable at the time of asking and also remember that we were once that vulnerable, even if we don't feel that now

IF someone is asking for 2x4's or even if you feel the need to give them and its what the LBS may need that we do it with sensitivity and responsibility and ensure the person is PREPARED they may be in boxing gloves not fur gloves..

And if someone is just posting and not asking for anything but just journaling then we have no right to go in with both feet and rip them apart because of some personal issues

Above all we must remember there are no points to prove here.....it should only be about supporting someone who is or has been through what any one of us may have gone through or are still going through
The outside world does not understand MLC , if we in turn don't understand or respect ,each other after all we have been through or going through then what hope do we have?
Temperance is a good word to bare in mind

[No expectations]

Just found this thread, and attaching.   I can't tell you how blessed I feel to have found this site.   I learned early on to let go, detach, GAL.  I don't know where I would be without all of you.

I agree that the differing views are needed.  I also think that some sensitivity helps the recipient to take the view in the Light of being helpful.  But that's my opinion.

I cherish all of you "old timers" still willing to come here and help.   Whether I embrace your view or not, is my choice.

[Anjae]

How is MammaBear, gosh she was funny...

Good for all we know.

I do not believe that any gracious god would not want us to grow and learn our entire lives, and I think that being an LBS opens the door to explore other relationships and learn from them, so that if or when you are ready to accept your spouse back, you will also share that, and KNOW even deeper that you choose each other, with all knowing intention, not because it is your only default.

The way I see it, one can grow both by standing for life or by being open to/have other relationships. There will be different types of growing, but both are growing.

I am not standing, never was. I dated and had a boyfriend. I didn't grow that much with those things. But I did grow a lot when on my own by choice. The choice was not because of Mr J or his MLC, it was for me. I needed time just for myself. The dating and boyfriend didn't brought much growth, I think they brought regress, and if I keep dating I wouldn't learn much since dating was more or less the same thing everytime.

There is a lot of growth possible on our own.

The dating was fun, very, very fun, but was keeping me stuck in the fun. The boyfriend was nice, but was a going nowhere relationship. Nevertheless, an important one and the necessary one at the time. If I learned anything with the dating and the boyfriend is that I become even more picky than I was before.

Most men don't have interest for me other than as friends. I quickly tired of them, so they would not do for something serious and long lasting.

I am not good to play mummy and nice wife, and many guys seem to be after that. I also don't stick around for people that can't intellectually interest me. And lets not mention physical intimacy. When you've had filet mignon most are MacDonald's burger. But I am certain the magical unicorn will one day show. 

Not sure I would share much about the dating and boyfriend would I have reunite with Mr J. Probably all I would have to say would be: the dating was fun, the boyfriend OK, the physical intimacy not that good (or I may omit that part).

I am far more like you, Stayed, LP and Nah than like Mitzpah, Onward, Serenity and others. Or was. At a point, that me wasn't working for me anymore. Somethings needed ajusting and tone down.

Tone down does not equal not saying things, just changing the way/tone they are said. And learn to adjust the message to the situation/person. Something I wasn't good at all. I was as blunt as one could be, here and in real life. Can't say it helped much. If anything, mostly in real life, is caused damages. Preventable ones. A bit of diplomacy would had worked far better.

The whole you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. A concept that used to be alien to me, but that, in fact, works.

The big growth for me here was to be a little less like I used to be, but remain myself, findind more balance. It was not easy at all.

Now I think I am middle ground, going a little to my old self at times, and that is good.

[The lighthouse]

I've just reached the 7 year mark as a LBS so I suppose I could be described as an old timer now.

after 4 years on this board, my lived experience is that bullying behaviour is defended with the rationale that  “well, that’s so-and-so being so and so, and sure they are tough some times, but they also help, so that’s OK”.  Which basically excuses the behaviour because the end justifies the means.

But the end does not justify the means.

Particularly not on a forum where many people have already suffered relationship trauma, and have had to learn to discern signs of abuse, including emotional abuse.

Make no mistake, a personal attack is emotional abuse.

What’s a personal attack?
The Urban Dictionary has a pretty good definition, which identifies it as a logical fallacy that demeans your opponent instead of refuting their argument.

Personal attacks include challenges that question someone’s intelligence, values, integrity, motivations, decisions and so forth.

I think it is more than fair to say some of the conversation on the recently closed thread was replete with personal attacks.

I would also argue that using any means possible to get someone to do something in the way and timeline you think they should does not come from a spirit of helping others; it speaks to imposing one’s own will and choices on others.

It is stated over and over and over again on this forum that we cannot save our spouses: that we need to let them go.

It follows, then, that the same detachment to an outcome or timeline and letting go of the need to have LBS’ follow a particular path to healing would also apply.

There is tremendous room for many different views, and experiences and approaches on this forum.  But I for one continue to hope that behaviour that is unkind, judgemental, psychologically damaging or personally attacking and/or demeaning is seen for what it is without excuse or encouragement.

I agree with every word Onward!

The excuses and encouragement of a select few forum members from others saddens, sickens and angers me more than whatever was said to start the conflict.  Again, as so many times in the past, this all started with one person airing their views.  Coming back to defend and explain themselves should have been enough, but there are some that swarm to conflict like bees to honey.  They are always the same people and I doubt that will ever change, especially when people then come along to defend the behaviour.  Very sad indeed and I for one will never respect that.

NO-ONE can understand or judge anyone because we do not know or live anyone's lives but our own.
If someone is asking for support we need to give it.
If someone is asking for advice we need to give it BUT temper it and remember what a responsibility that is because the person maybe particularly vulnerable at the time of asking and also remember that we were once that vulnerable, even if we don't feel that now

IF someone is asking for 2x4's or even if you feel the need to give them and its what the LBS may need that we do it with sensitivity and responsibility and ensure the person is PREPARED they may be in boxing gloves not fur gloves..

And if someone is just posting and not asking for anything but just journaling then we have no right to go in with both feet and rip them apart because of some personal issues

Above all we must remember there are no points to prove here.....it should only be about supporting someone who is or has been through what any one of us may have gone through or are still going through
The outside world does not understand MLC , if we in turn don't understand or respect ,each other after all we have been through or going through then what hope do we have?
Temperance is a good word to bare in mind

Well said 1T!

Tone down does not equal not saying things, just changing the way/tone they are said. And learn to adjust the message to the situation/person. Something I wasn't good at all. I was as blunt as one could be, here and in real life. Can't say it helped much. If anything, mostly in real life, is caused damages. Preventable ones. A bit of diplomacy would had worked far better.

The whole you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. A concept that used to be alien to me, but that, in fact, works.

The big growth for me here was to be a little less like I used to be, but remain myself, findind more balance. It was not easy at all.

Now I think I am middle ground, going a little to my old self at times, and that is good.

Yes I have seen this in you Anjae and for this you have my respect.  I have never felt that you are deliberately being personal or blunt to cause conflict or to hurt feelings.  I have always felt you have good intentions.

[LisaLives]

The way I see it, one can grow both by standing for life or by being open to/have other relationships. There will be different types of growing, but both are growing.

I am not standing, never was. I dated and had a boyfriend. I didn't grow that much with those things. But I did grow a lot when on my own by choice. The choice was not because of Mr J or his MLC, it was for me. I needed time just for myself. The dating and boyfriend didn't brought much growth, I think they brought regress, and if I keep dating I wouldn't learn much since dating was more or less the same thing everytime.

There is a lot of growth possible on our own.

You can grow a lot on your own, but you can never grow in a relationship without another person. 

I have had three "more than dating" relationships since BD.  I went on about 100 bad first and second dates, there are some funny stories there...  Three people made it to hometowns (but there were no beach excursions, and absolutely NO group dates).  And the things each of those men have taught me are beyond invaluable.  Things about me, that all guys are different, things about guns and hunting, IT, cars, insurance, and cooking, and all the things that are important to them, that had nothing to do with relationships.  Even all my dates taught me things like that.  One helped me get a job, and I think seven I am still FB friends with and love running into, even though we were not a perfect match.

I am in a wonderful, committed, hope to be lifetime R now. But, never say never, IF my H were to return, I would be a better wife to him the second time around, AND I would insist he be a better H, because I now know what that looks like.  I know some of you think your M's were perfect, and maybe they were, in your book, and maybe they were in his, until the day it wasn't anymore, but for sure, they leave to find something, and when they do, they find lots of things, whether it's a new career, hobby, or friend, and you will need to reconcile all of that. 

I have been posting on Shining Star's processing anger thread and she just made the observation that maybe getting unstuck means admitting her M is over.  I think that is a huge part of moving on.  Even if it's not growth in a new R, simply rearranging the living room means change that your spouse might not like, and there is a great fear in that.  I know there was for me, fear that if I changed too much, he might not want me back...  That's why standing does require a slightly different mindset, I think.  It doesn't have to, of course, but when, in the back of your mind, you are holding a place for a person, you can't fill that space with other people or things.  We do it with family and friends too, it's not a bad thing, but it is a "thing," for better or worse.  Love and light, ll   

[in it]

Lisa are you saying you would want to reconcile with your ex if he wanted to and dump this other relationship?
If so does the guy you are in this relationship with know that?

[Songanddance]

I am in a wonderful, committed, hope to be lifetime R now. But, never say never, IF my H were to return, I would be a better wife to him the second time around, AND I would insist he be a better H, because I now know what that looks like.

Umm confused.  Would appreciate you clarifying Lisa?  What I am inferring is that you are happy and content in your new potentially lifetime R and yet would reconcile with your H if he wanted to?   

Surely, in my very black and white thinking, your H wouldn't feature at all in your future because you now have a "wonderful committed and hope to be lifetime R"

Confused.....

[LisaLives]

I have no desire to reconcile with my ex, and I think I actually found a guy who will be with me forever.  But, I also thought that once before, so if life has taught me anything, it is never to say never. 

But more importantly, I am just trying to say, to others, that all situations are different, and that moving on to a new relationship, whether just to date, or with your whole heart and soul doesn't close all doors to reconciliation.  There are people who reconcile after 10, 20, or 30 years.  My H could have been on that duck boat in Branson the other day, and exH's wife could leave him next year for her next conquest... 

None of us have any idea what our future holds, and less what any other person's future holds, so I am living MY best life NOW, not waiting for some best idea of a future, not hitching onto anyone else's wagon, just living NOW.   Love and light, ll

[Thundarr]

And lo the prodigal son returns.  As part of the class of 2011 I’d say I qualify as an old-timer here, and pretty much in life in general as I start to get closer to 5-0 and am now a very proud grandfather.

My journey on here began in the early days, but before I made it to this little oasis I spent some time on the ridiculously confrontational DivorceBusting MLC page and the gone but not forgotten LifeTwo site where I met several friends who I stay in regular contact with today.  I thank God for RCR and HS along with all the wonderful people who I’ve gained even more respect for over the years. 

When I first arrived in July 2011 I was at a point where I thought I could tackle the MLC Beast using my experience and education in mental health.  I chronicled my journey through frequent postings and dismissed any naysayers who told me it was beyond my ability.  I honestly didn’t understand what I was dealing with or the limitations of this human condition, but my journey of discovery and exploration have made me infinitely better as a therapist and single dad.

I was here the night I came closest to ending my life.  It was the night I helped XW move into her new house and listened to her talk about how great the OM was, who I was in denial about, and had it not been for Stayed, Summer and several others who were on and who talked to me throughout the night I would probably have put a gun to my head.  I’m not ashamed to admit that now, and ironically I’m glad I went to that dark place because every time I meet with a suicidal client I can connect with them.  When you can honestly tell someone you know what it’s like to sit in the dark and feel that not even God cares you can reach them in a way you never could.  You can show them they’re not alone and that it does get better.  I’m a great therapist now because I’m genuine.  Not fake genuine but real since I have that life experience.  It truly is surreal.

There were many days that the postings of MammaBear, Little Chief, Wed and so many others were what kept me from going back to that dark place.  I laughed with them and loved hearing about their journeys even though they were as painful as mine as they could find the humor and silver linings I often didn’t see.  XW was about as textbook as they come but I didn’t see it at the time.  I laughed at the crazy stories about what MLCers say and do, such as the one who wanted the OW to sleep at the foot of the bed and help with chores, along with the times I had the old 2x4 from Honour, Doc, Stayed and whomever.  Fun times!

Today XW and I are in a good place.  Not together, may never be again, but in a good place.  The birth of our grandson has brought us closer and I would dare say we may even be friends.  She asks the kids about me shenever she’s with them and makes suggestions that seem to be out of genuine caring.  I still love her.  Always will.  But to me my stand ended when the kids told me they didn’t want her to come home.  I knew then that she had hurt them a great deal and that they had reached a point where they could verbalize it.  They no longer trusted or felt safe with her.  That’s changed over the past few months as she’s made more of an effort to connect with them, and is with them now ironically.  She volunteers to help out with transportation and financial things and puts effort into co-parenting.  Would I take her back if she ever wanted to?  Maybe.  I honestly can’t say for sure until that situation arises.  It would have to be a well thought out decision even though we are still considered married by our church.  I’m Catholic, btw, and HB is Pentecostal if I remember her telling me.  I’ve dated about 20 women, slept with eight, and talked to hundreds but none of them will ever be to me what XW is.

Anyway, sorry for the long post but want to say I’m proud to be part of this reunion thread of sorts.  Lots of great people here I never would have met if not for this site so that’s just one more reason I’m thankful for this journey. 

[Ready2Transform]

I read it as hypothetical. Most things posted on this site are hypothetical.

I've had those thoughts of, "What if 20 years down the road, we meet again and all of this is so far behind us?". Very unlikely, but speaks more of my desire to put distance between this situation and a happy future than to any doors left open. And after a few days of nasty emails, certainly, that door is locked and sealed in the short term! But I think even those of us not standing can understand it. Even Anjae has made comments about the what if of MrJ, and he was physically abusive and one of the longer term ones here.

[Thundarr]

Forgot to say hello to Ready2, Stayed, X, Confused, Anjae, LL, Wondering and all the rest who I’ve shared this journey with and especially OP (and his blasted “gift of time” references, lol).  I’m feeling nostalgic this morning since 2011 feels like 20 years ago now.  Lol

Also want to say I completely agree with LL about reconciliation.  No one I’ve been out or slept with has made me lose what I had for XW.  I guess that means it’s real, or possibly that I’m neurotic. 

[Thunder]

Thundarr, I remember when I came on the board and confused everyone by our similar names.   Took them awhile to figure that one out.    They called you Thunder and me Thundarr. 

I choose Thunder because it was the name of one of my favorite bands, btw.

Congrats on the new grandchild and glad you two have become friends.  Also much nicer for the kids.

[LearningIamOk]

Hello All! First, I want to let you know that Mamma Bear and her H are together and reconciling.

I also want to say that different view points are so necessary to everyone's healing. In the beginning, you have to be gentle and not crush the Newbies hopes that this MLC will just end at some point. We all hoped to find the magic formula to follow to just make this go away. Sadly, there is no formula. I wasn't ready to hear that early on. This isn't a game, and there are no rules. I realized this all too slowly in my opinion of myself.

People were gentle with me in the beginning. After it looked like I was wallowing too much and not having any forward momentum, posters like Stayed and Limitless (who was my Mentor), stopped sugar coating responses. It made me take a hard look at what I was doing and what was best for my healing. They helped me put me first in every equation.

I did pull the trigger on my M after 2 1/2 years. I had had enough. I felt I did everything I could to put my M back on track. I found the Forum, read the articles, books, counseling, and began GALing with a vengeance. I could look at myself in the mirror and know I did everything I could. xH just wanted, and still wants, nothing to do with me.

I found a great guy who has been in my life for over 5 years now. I learn a lot from him. He is kind, understanding, non-judgmental, supportive of my interests, and my favorite thing he ever said to me was "I love you, even when you don't love yourself". *sigh*

After all this time, and reflection, the only thing you can save is yourself. MLC came with a lot of gifts of knowledge and unexpected Silver Linings like new friends. Do I wish this had never happen, of course. But the life I am living now is pretty darn good. And I have an arsenal of knowledge at the ready to be able to help others who find themselves in the same sitch. I hope I am able to deliver it in a manner that will make people want to save themselves first. You only get one life, please don't let an MLCer steal the joy that is yours to find.

[1trouble]

Learning thank you for giving an update on Mama Bear

I have read her story on here and she was a truly funny gutsy woman, her humour even when she was going through some horrible times was totally inspirational.

Reading her thread kept me sane at some of the darkest times I am so happy she did reconcile
x

[Anjae]

Yes I have seen this in you Anjae and for this you have my respect.  I have never felt that you are deliberately being personal or blunt to cause conflict or to hurt feelings.  I have always felt you have good intentions.

Thank you, Light.

I wasn't. I am logical by nature (I tend to look at things from a logic point of view, not personal) and used to be very direct, blunt even. Being logical is sometimes complicated on more emotionnal situations. That is why I often say, to me this does not make sense, can you explain? And I remember telling a newbie male LBS straightforwardly that I was logical so he would have to tell me if I was being too much. He was very emotional and suffered from borderline.

You can grow a lot on your own, but you can never grow in a relationship without another person. 

True. But not everyone may want to grow in/with a relationship. And there are other types of relationships that allow people to grow, friendships, for example.

Even Anjae has made comments about the what if of MrJ, and he was physically abusive and one of the longer term ones here.

Indeed. Because it is a who knows what may happen. Of course Mr J would have to get professional help first. I don't think the physical abuse would still be there since it come with post-BD psychotic episodes, still, we would have to look for professional help.

But I am not waiting for him. I am going with the flow and what will be, since it is something I like and suits my needs and values, will be. Right now my mind is not exactly on romantic relationships. I was not after a boyfriend/relationship when Mr J and I become a couple, it happened.

No one I’ve been out or slept with has made me lose what I had for XW.  I guess that means it’s real, or possibly that I’m neurotic. 

I think it means it is real. 

[Tyks]

Learning, so nice to see you drop in and post
I am happy to hear that things are still going well for you !

[osb]

Haven't been on HS for few months, now catching up... this was a helluva thread. Loving to see all the familiar folks. I choose to elide over the angst, though; sometimes we old-timers seem all too bloody willing to see someone else's world through our own dammit-why-can't-you-see-the-world-the-way-I-see-it lenses. Different backstories, different choices, different goals.

Humbly, I do want to say I don't think it's possible for an LBS to have precipitated an MLC-er's crisis. An MLC-er feels overlooked and undervalued by the universe, not just by their partner. Looks, 'earning potential', responsibility within the home, lordly responsibility outside of the home... none of that seems to matter once you feel the ground slippery under your feet, your grip on reality loosens, and your crisis overtakes your reason. The last thing we LBSs need to do is to blame ourselves for someone else's damnfool choices. We all seem to have changed, after the MLCer left. We're stronger. Independent. Perhaps slower to trust? But that's our own growth spurt, not an effort to fix ourselves to lure a wayward spouse back, or to change the circumstances that precipitated their exit... that's crazy talk, they left because of their own issues and not ours, and they'll come back when they fix their issues, if we haven't outgrown them by then.

Went for a walk tonight to see the supermoon. Memories. There's a painting on our bedroom wall of lovers looking up at the moon, we bought it more than two decades ago, thought we were those lovers. Then a couple of weeks after BD, H and I went for a walk (what was I thinking?? denying reality), down to the river to see a huge moon... then I believe I stood too close to him (not quite being with the new program yet) and H exploded into yelling, who was I to think I could presume to stand next to him anymore (er, cue Sting and the Police?); he practically frog-marched me home, then marched himself out the door. That was the night I learned 'love' didn't mean all that much, in the big scheme of things. Took a long time, and a lot of full moon walks on my own, to make my peace with the moon; and then to realize - I might wax and wane like the moon, but like it, I am cool and calm, like it I am permanent and will outlast this noise. I don't need anyone. So slowly I learned to look past my H, stare up at the moon, and take the long view. Today my H and I are reconciled, but he still goes away on long trips; he's away just now. And I walked down to the river to look into the sky, take a deep breath and remind myself that I'm quite ok by myself.

For anyone who's still reading, I'd like to send you the moon. We're all going to be ok.

[serenity]

osb, thank you for that beautuful post

You said it all - whether we reconcile or not, we are changed and we will all be ok. We find our inner strength - strength we never knew we even had!!

I will look at the moon too and know that we are all connected

X

[xyzcf]

Still living in the shadow of his crisis and how that has impacted my life, I find it helpful to remind myself what osb has written. This is what rings true to me, bolded to remind myself...I am a casualty of his crisis, impacted when my world blew up and it is ok that there is still much rebuilding to do.

I don't think it's possible for an LBS to have precipitated an MLC-er's crisis.

An MLC-er feels overlooked and undervalued by the universe, not just by their partner. Looks, 'earning potential', responsibility within the home, lordly responsibility outside of the home... none of that seems to matter once you feel the ground slippery under your feet, your grip on reality loosens, and your crisis overtakes your reason. The last thing we LBSs need to do is to blame ourselves for someone else's damnfool choices.

But that's our own growth spurt, not an effort to fix ourselves to lure a wayward spouse back, or to change the circumstances that precipitated their exit... that's crazy talk, they left because of their own issues and not ours, and they'll come back when they fix their issues, if we haven't outgrown them by then.

I don't need anyone. So slowly I learned to look past my H, stare up at the moon, and take the long view. Today my H and I are reconciled, but he still goes away on long trips; he's away just now. And I walked down to the river to look into the sky, take a deep breath and remind myself that I'm quite ok by myself.

For anyone who's still reading, I'd like to send you the moon. We're all going to be ok.

You know how strange time is...sometimes it feels like time is going by very fast, other times it seems so slow and yet we know that time is just time.

Each person's ability to survive this "war" will be different, it will take each of us as long as it takes to heal.

Thanks osb.

[Songanddance]

I might wax and wane like the moon, but like it, I am cool and calm, like it I am permanent and will outlast this noise. I don't need anyone.

Osb - this so resonates with me. At this moment in my LBS journey I am struggling to see the point of continuing with H's reconnection. I see something that might work but then I really feel as though I don't need anyone and I don't need my H either.

And I walked down to the river to look into the sky, take a deep breath and remind myself that I'm quite ok by myself.

I am lucky to have a river at the bottom of my garden - I think this every morning as I wander down there with my morning coffee.

[HeartTattoo]

Thank you, OSB, for your lovely writing, & for reminding us of some important points, conveniently highlighted by XYZ. There was a whiff of victim-blaming in this thread & that needed banishing.

I don’t think anyone here has proposed that their pre-BD M’s were perfect. No one person is perfect/no M is perfect. But many (most?) of us had very good M’s, some of us for many decades. We weathered challenges, as all M’s do.

I could easily self-blame: I didn’t appreciate him enough, I didn’t compliment enough, I didn’t boost his ego enough. And so…he found someone else to do that so nicely. Thanks for the reminder that we didn’t cause this, we couldn’t have prevented it, we can’t fix it.

The strength we find post-BD doesn’t mean our M’s were holding us back in some way. It is the strength anyone with a healthy core pulls up to deal with a crisis—when a child is seriously ill, when we face our own serious illness, when natural disaster strikes our homes. We have to get strong; the other choice is to wither or die.

And we don’t change in order to fix our M’s. How can we when we don’t have a clue what the problem is? The MLCer doesn’t understand what is “wrong” either & typically gives absurd explanations for walking out the door: (recalling some of the greatest hits here) The dog is too fat. Your ironing board takes up too much space. You support health care reform. “Undervalued by the universe”—OSB’s eloquent way of defining the crisis that gets expressed as “I am so unhappy in this M” …& with the dog, the household furnishings, your political views, etc, etc.

[stayed]

Perfectly said Osb! No victim blaming just reality. No MLC blaming either, sad part of our prosperous world reality.
Great seeing you all again.
Hugs Stayed

[Mitzpah]

Loved OSB's post (as always! ).

I so agree with what she posted

The strength we find post-BD doesn’t mean our M’s were holding us back in some way. It is the strength anyone with a healthy core pulls up to deal with a crisis—when a child is seriously ill, when we face our own serious illness, when natural disaster strikes our homes. We have to get strong; the other choice is to wither or die.

And we don’t change in order to fix our M’s. How can we when we don’t have a clue what the problem is? The MLCer doesn’t understand what is “wrong” either & typically gives absurd explanations for walking out the door: (recalling some of the greatest hits here) The dog is too fat. Your ironing board takes up too much space. You support health care reform. “Undervalued by the universe”—OSB’s eloquent way of defining the crisis that gets expressed as “I am so unhappy in this M” …& with the dog, the household furnishings, your political views, etc, etc.

This!!!!

Thank you for pointing out why we change 

[osb]

No MLC blaming either, sad part of our prosperous world reality.

FWIW, don't think MLC's just a 'prosperous world' or 'first world' problem...

My uncle had what i now recognize was MLC, years ago in the old country. He retired young, lost the position and perks that went with that job, reacted badly, and flung himself into an intense religiosity, fasting and austerities, and then went to live at a hermitage. Then another hermitage. He'd reappear into my aunt's life only long enough to mess up her plans, then go off to meditate on yet another riverbank cuz the last one was so bourgeois he couldn't stand it, they didn't fast long enough...   My aunt lived in the city, and managed.  Coped. Divorce is unthinkable in that society. Years later, his body having violently objected to hermitages, penance, bad water and old age, my uncle came home and they're back together. My aunt had always been my favorite, an oasis of sweetness, calm and determination... I didn't know then that you have to walk through fire to achieve that demeanor... we spent a lot of time talking, after my own H tried to run away. Uncle still tentatively lurks in his wife's life like he's unsure of his welcome with the more judgmental relatives, but somehow he communicates that loves her. And loves me, for my lack of judgement. And still clings to ritual like it provides structure to his once-shattered, reassembled self. And so it does.

There are so many ways to conceal an existential crisis, and so many 'socially justifiable' ways to run. This might be why so many people dismiss MLC as an entity, though. I don't think MLC is affluenza. It's a disorder of the mind; depression, in some cases. Not a product of world or time. We have always been this easy to break.

[The lighthouse]

Beautiful post osb!  Thank you...

[Anjae]

Perhaps slower to trust?

I am far more trusting of people and the Universe, and faster, since BD than I ever was. But it may only have to do with being older.

But that's our own growth spurt, not an effort to fix ourselves to lure a wayward spouse back, or to change the circumstances that precipitated their exit... that's crazy talk, they left because of their own issues and not ours, and they'll come back when they fix their issues, if we haven't outgrown them by then.

This 100 times.

A crisis that includes hermitages and fasting is much easier to deal with than one that includes OW, spending, spending, spending, etc. At least I think it is. And people will see that sort of crisis as a crisis. Or, at least, as someone has become a little strange.

I don't think MLC is affluenza. It's a disorder of the mind; depression, in some cases. Not a product of world or time. We have always been this easy to break.

So far, I have never meet anyone that couldn't afford  to have a MLC, so, I think it has something to do with money. That it is depression I have no doubt. Not that it has happened a lot in the past, The Odyssey is a MLC journey and it is set in the 12th century BC. So is Dant'e Divine Comedy, from the 14th Century.

We're easy to break, but modern life breaks us more. Depression had been on the rise and will keep being. People have everything, but are never satisfied. There is a difference from past decades/centuries. In the Western World, and other parts of the World if one has money, people have too much (I am not talking about millionaires/billionaires). In the past, only a few had too much, some had enough. Most had less than enough. They led a life of sleep (often) barely, work, and a festive day here and there.

As for run, humans can run without going anywhere and have often done so. Drinking, drugs, sex, war, etc. Run/escape alone does not equal MLC. Like not all affairs are MLC affairs. 

[osb]

A crisis that includes hermitages and fasting is much easier to deal with than one that includes OW, spending, spending, spending, etc. At least I think it is. And people will see that sort of crisis as a crisis. Or, at least, as someone has become a little strange.

Oops, did I not mention the spending, spending, spending?    You'd think an ascetic would have short arms and deep pockets... but no, my uncle threw all his money at real estate adjacent to his hermitages ('Everyone will want this! Gonna make a killing!'), and dropped each of them for a pittance as the enthu fizzled. One of his Potemkin hermitages actually had wifi and livestreaming (a monk-cam! I kid you not!! ).  No affairs, admittedly; he was too busy trying to achieve some kind of world record in asceticism, and actually became rather repellent.

Nobody saw it as a crisis. Everyone either told my aunt, "He's trying to be a good man, why don't you just quit your job, move to the village and go meditate with him?" (...um, nope), or decided he was a self-righteous cuss and always had been (far from it, but people remember what's easiest to make sense of).  I see MLC replay written all over it, but then, I have the advantage of our conversations here; and my H made some of the same moves (albeit in a very different context).

The utter absurdity of MLC should give it away. But seems like the LBS is the only one who sees it (and for us, it's not so funny).

[Tyks]

An MLC-er feels overlooked and undervalued by the universe, not just by their partner 

If this is the case then why do they shack up with the ow or om and create their new life that way? Makes no sense to me and I am not sure that it ever will

[Mitzpah]

An MLC-er feels overlooked and undervalued by the universe, not just by their partner 

If this is the case then why do they shack up with the ow or om and create their new life that way? Makes no sense to me and I am not sure that it ever will

Because the ow or om are right there... and anything 'new' or 'different' must be better than the lbs who is part of the life that they are rejecting

[Treasur]

Because they don't have to face you or take responsibility for what they have done. Because a new person only knows the person they present themselves as being now - and likes it when we don't. Because it is part of running and legitimises their choice. Because it is more fun to nod easier to start over.

[Anjae]

Oh mine, spending even in hermitage and throw all his money at real estate adjacent to his hermitages? MLC. 

One of his Potemkin hermitages actually had wifi and livestreaming (a monk-cam! I kid you not!! )

That is not a hermitage, it is luxury!  A monk-cam, your uncle is (was) something.  Think he wins the prize for the most peculiar MLC. 

When I wrote everyone, I was thinking here. If someone married here were to do that, people would find it very strange and think crisis. Probably more emotional/identity/life crisis than MLC.

I see MLC replay written all over it, but then, I have the advantage of our conversations here

That is a way to see it. But, at least, I think he was truly trying to find himself or to find some meaning/purpose. I may be wrong, of course. It is hard to see(think the same with most MLCer and their crazy MLC choices that tend to be opposite of your uncle's one. Hermitage and meditation is not their usual choice of Replay.

The utter absurdity of MLC should give it away. But seems like the LBS is the only one who sees it (and for us, it's not so funny).

It really is strange how the LBS seems to be the only person that sees how odd it all is.

An MLC-er feels overlooked and undervalued by the universe, not just by their partner 

If this is the case then why do they shack up with the ow or om and create their new life that way? Makes no sense to me and I am not sure that it ever will

Because, usually, OW/OM values, praises and adores the MLCer no matter how crazy the MCLer actions. At least at first. Also, OW/OM were not part of the MLCer normal pre MLC Universe. Or normally they were not.

Because a new person only knows the person they present themselves as being now - and likes it when we don't.

This as well

[stayed]

There are so many ways to conceal an existential crisis, and so many 'socially justifiable' ways to run. This might be why so many people dismiss MLC as an entity, though. I don't think MLC is affluenza. It's a disorder of the mind; depression, in some cases. Not a product of world or time. We have always been this easy to break.

Good thought!  People are really very fragile... or at least many seem to be...

[Treasur]

Well, I certainly found out that I was a lot more fragile than I thought before I slowly learned that I wasn't entirely 

[Anjae]

Good thought!  People are really very fragile... or at least many seem to be...

Humans are fragile, mentally and physically. Or we can go from being strong to fragile in the blink of an eye.

Nothing makes you more aware of it than accompanying a stroke survivor to a neurology apppintment at the hospital, and then, walk a good portion inside the hospital until the main entrance. Many people are there for routine appointments like we were, but, in February, one moment my aunt was fine, the next she had a stroke and everything changed.

She was lucky, it was very mild, but it still left issues to be dealt with and she is not as strong or capable as she used to be.

Others were in the hospital because they were having a stroke, a motorbike or car accident just happened, their minds gave in and needed psychiatric ER doctors, etc.

Humans are resilient and manage to sustain a lot, but we can easily break in mind and body.

[stayed]

Well, I certainly found out that I was a lot more fragile than I thought before I slowly learned that I wasn't entirely 

I like that... found out you were more fragile then you thought UNTIL you learned you weren't!  Well said... and so very, very true!


Hugs Stayed

[HeartTattoo]

Such an interesting story about your aunt & uncle, OSB.

There are so many ways to conceal an existential crisis, and so many 'socially justifiable' ways to run.

I think this is where our affluent, individualism-prizing society comes in. Family break-up is so common & so acceptable that the causes of it are barely given a thought. Everyone just "moves on".

For too many people "I just fell 'in love' with someone else" seems like a perfectly acceptable rationale for destroying a family.

[xyzcf]

We are often told that MLC has a finite life span and as we are seeing, it lasts much longer than the original thought of 2-3 years which was later changed to 2-7 years.

But experience is showing that for many LBSers, even those time frames are too short, and indeed some MLCers may never show signs of exiting the tunnel.

I am not talking about whether they come home or not, but how some continue to show signs of "abnormal" behavior for lack of a better word and indeed a worsening even the longer time goes on.

Quote from: xyzcf on September 04, 2018, 02:08:51 PM
... instead of the length of the crisis making things better I now believe that in some cases, the pathology continues and they lose even more of who they once were...


Anjae’s response:
I agree. I don't know if those cases will remain in crisis forever, but I do agree that being in MLC/replay for so long makes it much worst and they lose themselves more and more. If we thing about it, it makes sense. Since MLC is similar to addiction, the longer someone is an addict, the more that person loses itself

Mr J seems to be a strange person right now and since two and a half years ago. He start to go back to concerts of bands he likes, he sometimes gets in touch and is much nicer. Then we have the mix of normal and  crazy monster like Monday.

We tend to think that they are becoming better people, but the longer the crisis, the less it seems to be so. Still, who knows. Stayed's Irish friend's husband turned up out of the blue ater had been gone for nine years.

For mine and yours Trust it has been more than 9 years, for Xyzcf's husband it has been 9 years and 9 years down the road he asked for a divorce who knows why.

Then there are those like Mitzpah husband, it has been 7 years I think, he does not get worst, but he also does not seem to get better/really come out of Replay. Mitz MLCer is a nice one, not an ugly monster one like Mr J. Still, nice or monster, that does not seem to be a factor for how long will they remain in crisis/Replay.

Many MLCers display some sort of addictive behavior. Whether it be to work, gambling, affairs, substances there is a similarity in this.

Sometimes LBSers talk as though the MLCer could make different choices than they do but like other complex behaviors, I am not so sure that is true.

I am in therapy, a style of therapy that is "different" than typical talk therapy...it focuses on mind /body connection and attempts to change neural pathways from constantly being in a flight/fight mode and even more difficult a freeze mode by building new neural pathways.

This chart explains what happens when we stay in Fight/fight or go into FREEZE mode:
http://www.rubyjowalker.com/PVchart7HD.jpg
 
I have definitely been retraumatized by his divorce after 9 years of clinging boomerang behavior and I think, at times, I can emphasize a bit with what the MLCer is experiencing, because what I am feeling is horrible and even with all I try to do to "get better" and all the therapy and understanding of why I feel this way....it doesn't change the depression and body experiences that are very very disturbing.....The left side of my brain can rationalize and tell me that I "should not" be experiencing trauma to this extend once again, but the right side of my brain has it's own agenda..this is where trauma memories are stored and where the brain affects the physical symptoms that I experience, this is where 1+2=64.

The somatic experiences are not in my control and I think about Barbiedoll's and MyBrainIsBroken documentation of the somatic things they have experienced and I can really relate to them.

I have to think more about why I am writing this....I suspect my right brain is in charge of trying to explain something to myself that continues to perplex me and confuse me.

I posted some articles on https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=10273.msg686590#new from a workshop I just attended on Complex PTSD which has triggered this mumbo jumbo of thoughts.....as I said frequently in the past...if this wasn't happening to my life I would find it all very fascinating.

[Anjae]

Those links on the links threads are very interesting.

I attended a kinderganten based on the avant-garde austro-swiss early XX century kindergartens. It was progressive, but it still had rules. It focussed on children as individuals and incentivated our creativity. I was devastated when my first kindergardent teacher left just one year after I was there.

But I was never misstreated bu the teachers or staff. However, when the end of our dictatorship come, all of a sudden, some kids wanted to beat my cousin (the one who latter had MLC). Why? They were screamings you are Reds, your parents are Reds. That wasn't making any sense, we were kids, politics was not something it was talked about up until then. At the time, things were heated in our country and we lived, and I still live, in a posh, upper class mostly right wing area - my old kindergarten is in the same stree I live, a few metres ahead, now a private home.

I got in front of my cousin and told the bullies they would had to hit/deal with me first. Unlike cousin, I was not scared of a fight and I hit to hurt. They run. Then, in primary school, first year I had a wonderful young teacher. She also left and class went to an old teacher with old ways. He used a cane to hit us behind our years, a paddle to hit our hands, etc. We find that soaking our hands with chalk would make the pain dimish. It was such a shock, went from a young, modern teacher to that old fashioned teacher. By then, corporal punishements were already abolished, but he hadn't caught up with the times.

I had more incidents with teachers and colleagues on middle and high school. Never on University, but I was on my late 20's when I went to University. 

Mr J had lots of issues with teachers and colleagues. He was not a jock, but  shy intellectual kid with glasses.

So, yes, I would say that there is a connection between "multiple traumatic events that occur within the caregiving system" and traumas/problems.

Therefore, I may be right that it (MLC) does not always have to do with family issues. I also think it does not always have to do with childhood issues, it can be related to adolescence ones.

As for a link between Complex PTSD and a connection to obesity and diabetes. It does not surprise me. Anxiety/Stress/PSTD/Complex PSTD cause all sorts of other illnesses. I only got high blood pressure August 2006 when Mr J was already monster and nasty. The doctors checked and checked and couldn't find a cause - they weren't very clever. Now, with all the added anxiety/stress/tiredness of 12 years with a husband in MLC, 8 years looking after grandmother and peri-menopause, some health things aren't so good, even if I am quite fit (fit and healthy aren't the same thing).

I have no doubt that all my health issues come from this mess, and prior of this mess already from stess from the problems that falled upon me when I was turning 14 and doctors getting it all wrong and prescribing wrong meds, including some that messed my hormones for good.

Anxiety/Stress/PSTD mess with metabolism, with the nervous system, with the digestive system, etc.

It is well known that some people gain weight when stressed (other lose weight). With me, it depends, but, sometimes I gain.

I have no doubt whatsoever that stress is the cause of pretty much every illness we deal with. I saw it on myself, mum, grandmother, aunt, paternal aunt, etc. I saw it in Mr J - he was a ticking bomb of stress and axiety and depression before he left andis stil one - in my cousin that had MLC - another ticking bomb of stress before he hit rock bottom, in friends, etc.

Since Monday and the talk with Mr J, even if now I know every trick in the book, my stress level rose. I even wake up in the middle of the night and have to take more magnesium and eat bananas. Which means I have not been able to sleep a full night in days.

[xyzcf]

Anjae:

Therefore, I may be right that it does not have to do with family issues. Or not for everyone. I also think it does not always have to do with childhood issues, it can be related to adolescence ones.

Absolutely! Think about the sexual abuse issues that are being uncovered, and what affect that will have on so many people, not just those who were abused but also on their children and other family members, especially if they have not received any therapy and as so often is the case, they go on to abuse others.

Since MOnday and the talk with Mr J, even if now I know every trick in the book, my stress level rose. I even wake up in the middle of the night and have to take more magnesium and eat bananas.

My "fear" has become so ingrained (what will he do next that will hurt me?) that the briefest of contact send me spiralling downhill. I am really unhappy about this...the "feelings" are not the same as at BD, but in some ways they are worse because they are "different" and yet very similar and like his crisis, out of my control.

[Anjae]

Absolutely! Think about the sexual abuse issues that are being uncovered, and what affect that will have on so many people, not just those who were abused but also on their children and other family members, especially if they have not received any therapy and as so often is the case, they go on to abuse others.

Indeed. In my case it oes not have to do with sexual abuse. It has to do with going from an idyllic childhood to being pulled from school because mum and dad deciced eithr it was school for me (8th grade) or food for my siblings. It was a lie. Dad was making good money, and even if he was not, we have school social services to cover those cases. I have tol that story in etail in one of my ol threads.

Think mum just recreated what grandfather did to her. With no explanation he took her out of school when she was 13. Grandfather suffered from mental illness and when mum was 15 killed himself.

Mum and dad were great, but together it wouln't took long until things become messy. Dad was away for most ot my childhood, either in our colonial war or in exhile and all was wonderful. I was an only chil with enough (grandfather had already lost the family fortune, mum was working, but there was still enough for a nice midlle/middle upper class life).

My "fear" has become so ingrained (what will he do next that will hurt me?) that the briefest of contact send me spiralling downhill. I am really unhappy about this...the "feelings" are not the same as at BD, but in some ways they are worse because they are "different" and yet very similar and like his crisis, out of my control.

This time it was not fear. I knew the worst it could happen was no (to allow the exhibition curators to pick my materials that are with Mr J). I acceot that I didn't factor I was going to get monster. It has been 12 years. Monster?

Not so much feeling in my case. It was physical. I felt stress on my spinal cord. OK, I got furious, silently furious at the disrespect. It erose quickly, but the stress did not. I even pulled a Watcher and used my dumbbells with more weight  , went for a long walk including clibbing tons of stairs outside the stadium area, etc.

It has been a few days and the effects haven't all went away yet. I know contact with Mr J is not good for me, but the exhibition was (is) important. Still, I should had known better and known I was more important than the exhibition.

One thing stress/anxiety does to me is that it makes my brain foggy and tired. And I also need carbs, including cake. Otherwise I get cranky, something that not even the peri-menopause manages.

[xyzcf]

I wanted to share something from my therapy session yesterday because it helps me understand why it has been so difficult for me to heal.

I was explaining a "visual" I had been having of being in a body of water and not being able to get my head above the water...I could peek out with my eyes but something underneath that I couldn't see kept dragging me under again and again....at some point I could reach one arm out but down I would go again.

My therapist stated: "drowning people drown people".

The connection between my husband and I, the cords that tie us together are much deeper and invisible sometimes. As much as I have tried to "let go" as we are so fond of saying, it has been very difficult.

A former LBSer who marriage is restored reminded me that her husband never did the things that mine did, for so many years...gifts, dinners out, family holidays together, vacations always feeding me those crumbs that had me thinking that he still cared about me, that I still mattered to him.

"Drowning people drown people". In real life, the life saver often does get pulled down into the depth with the person that is drowning, the person they are trying to "save" and for their own survival, they may have to let go of the grip they have and allow the drowned person to sink.

I have felt a shift lately and my therapist has seen it in me as well....I am very grateful for I did not ever expect to go into such a deep state of depression again and yet I did, but after 4 months (since he announced his divorce) I am regaining my equilibrium....thanks to many many prayers, friends who have been there and an amazing therapist who fortunately I had already established a relationship with for several months before this (hopefully) final bomb drop.

Take care all of you..pay attention to how you are feeling. There is a great deal more I am learning that has a significance in the way I have responded to his crisis and I am hopeful now that my life will settle back to where it was 4 months ago when I was feeling pretty ok.

[Anjae]

"Drowning people drown people". In real life, the life saver often does get pulled down into the depth with the person that is drowning, the person they are trying to "save" and for their own survival, they may have to let go of the grip they have and allow the drowned person to sink.

Indeed. Life savers are trained to let go of the person they are saving if the life saver's life is in danger. No point of two people drowning.

I am regaining my equilibrium....thanks to many many prayers, friends who have been there and an amazing therapist who fortunately I had already established a relationship with for several months before this (hopefully) final bomb drop.

Excellent.

[dogwalker]

Thanks xyzcf. very usefull

[stayed]

Drowning people, drown people! So true. Great analogy. Thanks.

[HeartTattoo]

XYZ,

I am so glad you are making good progress in your therapy. Your unconscious brain, your soul, understood "Drowning people drown people" before your conscious brain did, as is so often the case. The awareness now helps you heal.

How can we not have those cords, those connections? After so many years? After so much evidence of a good marriage? Those bonds that now hurt us have to be frayed away, one filament at a time. We cannot let those bonds drown us. Of course, the bonds are never completely broken--too many memories, our children, our continued love & concern for our spouses. But those bonds have to be stretched out to such thin & distant ones that the connection can no longer threaten to drown us.

Hugs,
HT

[xyzcf]

HeartTattoo:

How can we not have those cords, those connections? After so many years? After so much evidence of a good marriage? Those bonds that now hurt us have to be frayed away, one filament at a time.

This was also said, almost in the exact same words in therapy. We think the passage of time will heal us, or that we will forget or perhaps they have hurt us so deeply that we do not want them in our lives.....but these invisible cords/threads/bonds tie us to each other forever.

I am not sure why that doesn't have an effect on the MLCer as well.  But I think it is something in their brains that doesn't connect their emotions to their memories...whatever has "caused" the crisis continues to prevent the "normal" concern that one has for other human beings, let alone the concern that should still somehow be there for someone they once loved.

Of course I had knowledge already of these cords...I just never realized how deep they are.

Incredible, that love can cause so much pain. But thank you, yes, I am in an upward curve...the good thing about life is it is never stagnant.

[BrenM]

but these invisible cords/threads/bonds tie us to each other forever.

I am not sure why that doesn't have an effect on the MLCer as well.

Totally agree xyzcf.....reminds me of the ancient Chinese theory of the invisible red thread.....two people connected by the red thread are destined lovers, regardless of place, time, or circumstances. This magical cord may stretch or tangle, but never break.

I think the Mlcer knows and feels the effects...but they just run from their feelings and reality

[serenity]

These invisible threads are my H’s reason for not wanting a divorce!  He said he doesn’t want these last threads to be cut!

So I think that says it all!

X

[Anjae]

These invisible threads are my H’s reason for not wanting a divorce!  He said he doesn’t want these last threads to be cut!

And what to you want, Serenity? Could it be that what he said was only an excuse for not having to go ahead with things adn to keep you as his backup plan?

For a very long time I felt invisible bonds with Mr J. For some reason, of late, they have vanished. For a long time, when I wake up I used to think about him. Not anymore. Even if, for some reason, he is mentioned, it is like a ghost from a very distant past is mentioned.

For me it feels like we never shared a life. I don't even understand why he used to be so important to me. Or why it used to matter to be possible to be back together, if only for work purposes. Now not even for work purposes makes sense.

Not sure what happened/changed.

[LearningIamOk]

For me it feels like we never shared a life.

Anjae, I feel the same way. I thought there was something wrong with me. We were married for 30 years when he left and I can barely remember him being here.

[BrenM]

We were married for 30 years when he left and I can barely remember him being here.

Well maybe I am the insane one 🤔🤔.  I really don't see how anyone can erase history and memories, even if they try really hard to.  Even though my Exh, the father of my four children, is now a man who we do not know, acting in a way that does not resemble the man who we loved in any form, we still remember and holds that man in high regards.   My children hurt daily, my 17 year old celebrated another birthday last week, his 3rd birthday with no birthday wish or contact from the man that he once idolised.  The man who empathised the importance of family gatherings and celebrations for birthdays.   My daughter has not been to school in over 3 years due to anxiety and depression.  She is currently under a mental health plan of specialists.  Her father, no doubt would've heard on the grapevine...but he has not reached out to her or enquired about her health.  She was his princess. 

We still reside in the family home...it is full of memories.  A lifetime of memories and love.  We still talk fondly about him amongst ourselves.  Anger and hatred does no one any good and results in bitterness.  Life is too short to live like that.

When people pass away, it is not a case of out of site out of mind.  We constantly remember the love we shared and the memories.  Spasmodically when songs come on the radio or even foods come to mind you unintentionally think of them.  I really believe that Mlcers cannot escape the reality of the memories.  Many returned Mlcers talk about how they know what they were doing was hurting their loved ones but they had no control.

Yes I do not know or understand the person in my husbands body.  He is a very selfish man who has no regards for anyone but himself.  BUT I know that my husband is still in that body.....somewhere.....whether he will make it out of the tunnel who knows....but the man who he was deserves the respect to be remembered for the loving husband, father, son, brother and friend who he once was.  Not just thrown and discarded on the scrape heap as us LBS know all about.

[Anjae]

Well maybe I am the insane one 🤔🤔.  I really don't see how anyone can erase history and memories, even if they try really hard to.

Memories fade naturally with time. It has been 12 years since Mr J left. He have no kids. It has been many years since Learning's husband left and she has a new part. Our situations are different than yours.

When people pass away, it is not a case of out of site out of mind.  We constantly remember the love we shared and the memories.  Spasmodically when songs come on the radio or even foods come to mind you unintentionally think of them. 

When our loved ones die we remember them. But it is different. Sure, some things may make us unintentionally thinks about the MLCers, and they do. But, a point comes, when it is a brief, almost non-existant moment. At least that is what has happened to me.

I really believe that Mlcers cannot escape the reality of the memories.  Many returned Mlcers talk about how they know what they were doing was hurting their loved ones but they had no control.

This thread is for old timers, people who have had a spouse in MLC for 5 years or more, it is not about the MLCer or the MLCer memories.

It is for old timers to post about our experiences. Our experiences and our journeys are far away from those still earlier on.

Of couse they had not control. Hurting someone physically, file for divorce in court, leading an affair behind the LBD back, no control at all.  Right.

RCR and HB are clear that MLCers can deliberately hurt the LBS. And I believe it. Mr J deliberately hurt me and he told me so. And no one has an affair and does not know they are having an affair and that the affair will hurt their spouse. But MLCers do much worst than having an afffair, they go live with OW/OM.

Certainly they also know they are living with OW/OM. And that such thing is hurtful.

He is a very selfish man who has no regards for anyone but himself.  BUT I know that my husband is still in that body.....somewhere.....whether he will make it out of the tunnel who knows....

If he never makes out of the tunnel than the man you knew will never exist again. I have long stop thinking that the real Mr is somewhere inside the body of MLC Mr J. 12 years of Replay? It is hard to believe the real person is still there. Even if it is, it makes little difference to me at this point.

...but the man who he was deserves the respect to be remembered for the loving husband, father, son, brother and friend who he once was.  Not just thrown and discarded on the scrape heap as us LBS know all about.

Sure. But that man is no more. It does not make sense to ignore who they have become. Bren, after 5, 7, 9, 10 12 or more years, the LBD is not discarting the MLCer, the LBS has a new life, where the MLCer is not included. At least some LBS do. You do not know if you will still feel/think the same in 1,2, 5, or more years. You also don't know how it is to hav a spouse in Replay for 5, 7, 9, 10, 12 or more years.

Some LBS reconnect and reconcile. That depends of many factors. Most LBS will not reconcile, usually because MLC takes too long and the LBS has a new life, alone or with someone else.


When I see posts like yours here and on the Vanishers thread I wonder how you, and othes, would have deal with HS when Stayed, LP, Hb, DGU and others, who were straight shooter and no-nonsense were around. They told things like they were, not rosy.

Even with RCR, when she used to post very to the point.

[BrenM]

Just wow Anjae....do you not read your posts before you press reply?  Sorry for following along on the old timers thread...something I have done since you started the thread.  I was not aware that "entry" to this thread had a prerequisite of 5+ years.  Guess I am still a Newby in your eyes at almost 4 years and my experience is irrelevant?  Wow Anjae....I am seriously concerned about you!


Yes I understand that after 12 years, in your eyes, you believe you are an expert in MLC....even though your husband has not come out of the tunnel.  You have no children so effectively have no ties with your H. Yes you win the medal for having the longest MLCer....is that what you are seeking to hear?   I didn't think there were any winners in MLC.  It certainly is not something that I would want anyone to experience and do not see anything around MLC as a competition.  Quite the contrary.

 Yes some of your posts are very enlightening, but others are attacking and come across very dictating of your "opinions".  If you do not agree with someone's post you belittle them.

I read in absolute disgust last week of your correspondence absolutely tearing strips off another poster - it was her personal thread .  I don't normally post but read, but I felt compelled to reply in defence of this poor woman.  It was absolutely disgusting and sounded extremely bitter Anjae.  Your conduct was atrocious and very sad.  I have not seen any further posts from that poster.  Now you are at it again not only on this post but others.  Why?  What is going on with you?  This is not what this forum is about.

"The Hero's Spouse Forum offers an understanding and supportive community along with a peer mentor program to guide you through the trauma of your spouse's midlife crisis and infidelity. Join us and meet friends who understand what you are going through"

Yes in your opinion you may say things as they are....but please read your posts prior to pressing reply.  We as a community want to support and show compassion to as many fellow LBS's as possible.  This is the place where LBS's come for refuge and to correspond with others who understand, something that many cannot do in RL. 

We want this community to grow in numbers so that we all can learn further about MLC, not have numbers dwindle due to LBS's being somewhat intimidated.   We all have different stories and situations.  All have had a devastating affect on many.  No winners Anjae.

Don't get me wrong Anjae, I normally enjoy reading your posts....your posts where you show compassion and are not dictating.  Something is not right with your recent replies to various posters.  I hope that you take this constructive criticism onboard for your future posts, so that every LBS can follow and learn from "your" journey to date.

[Anjae]

Bren, the title of this thread is Old Timers Thread 3.

If you are not comfortable with that Old Timers say and the way we think, don't read our thread.

I am not able to understand your ultrage at what Learning and I wrote about our experiences as Old Timers, in a thread for Old Timers. Should we had lied and said yes, our memories of our MLCer/marriage remain as present as ever? Don't think so.

It is a fact that, not that long ago, HS had members far more to the point and blunt than now. I am pale in comparison.

It is fact DGU used to ask people point black "what is the part of MLC you do not understand". You would probably react bad to it, but that was what he used to ask people. He was, and remains, one of the most respect members of HS.

The fact that a spouse has not come out of MCL has nothing to with with the LBS. MLC pertains to the MLCer, not the LBS. As it in the articles and always left very clear in HS.

[BrenM]

Anjae...I will not get into a "Keyboard Warrior" style correspondence with you (although I get the opinion that you would thrive on that path).  I posted my thoughts in my last post.  I stand not alone with my opinions, with many posters fearing posting.  That is very sad.  I hope for every LBS on HS that you take this advice on the chin....and as I would say to my children "pull your head in".

I am very comfortable with what content this thread has, but I didn't realise that this thread was based on Anjaes opinions only and if you disagree watch out! Maybe you should rename it to "Anjae opinions only" and save HS readers the time and effort in opening the thread?   There is definitely no "our" in the recent direction of the postings.

Interesting that you should state the wording that if I am not happy with the thread then don't read it....I do believe you were told that last week when you abused another LBS on her personal thread.

I hope that this thread and others get back on track.  And aim at supporting every single LBS - new or old.....we can all definitely learn from each other.

[Thunder]

Oh wow, what makes an Old Timer?  Good question Bren.

Is it 5 or more years?  I don't know the answer to that.  I never felt like an old timer until after 5 years.
I had been through the BD, the replay and the divorce..and maybe some big decisions in my life.

It honestly took me 5 years to get through this all, not sure.  I never really thought about it, I just knew I was one of the Old timers.  I'm thinking Nah may feel the same, but I don't want to speak for her.

I my humble opinion an old timer is someone has reached some clarity with all this and feels they can give constructive advice.
If I didn't feel that I would not give advice, only support.

Like OP says, knowledge is power.

[Anjae]

Oh wow, what makes an Old Timer?  Good question Bren.

Is it 5 or more years?  I don't know the answer to that.

It is, Thunder. It was left clear when several HS member asked for this thread (the number one) to be started. It was even talked about on the first thread.

Old Timers wanted a place to talk and debate issues that people with MLCers with shorter crisis don't face. As HS goes by, 5 years may not even be an Old Timer since we are starting to have several LBS whose MLCer has been in crisis for far more than 5 years.

[OldPilot]

As HS goes by, 5 years may not even be an Old Timer since we are starting to have several LBS whose MLCer has been in crisis for far more than 5 years.

Does 10 qualify?

[stayed]

I don't understand why you are so upset with Anjae Brenross.  What are you accusing her of?  Not once did Anjae say that you should feel this way, she didn't imply that in TIME you would also feel this way.  She simply said, "this is how I feel NOW!".... as did LearningIamok.  They never suggested this should be your goal.  They never said, EVERYBODY eventually feels this way... they said... "I'm really surprised that now, in 2018 I can barely remember my spouse.... it is like they were never in my life.  This is their opinion, their "feelings" NOT YOURS.... THEIRS!

Neither of these ladies feel the need to make up stuff, pretend that they are still devastated by this event .... not any longer.  Both ladies have found a place in their lives where they are finally at PEACE with all of this.  That isn't your experience Brenross so far, maybe it will never be the way you feel.  That is fine.  They didn't say EVERYBODY eventually feels this way... they said... catagorically, this is the way "I FEEL" about our x's. 

Well done Anjae and LearningImOk.  Good for both of you for speaking YOUR TRUTH!  This forum supports everybody the best way they can.  Sorry that you feel your needs have not been met. Brenross.  For me, I want HONEST comments.  I want to know how people are truly feeling now, at whatever stage their MLCer is at.  I'm just delighted to hear that Anjae and LearningImOk are in a good place and feeling like their life is THEIRS. 

Hugs Stayed

[Anjae]

Does 10 qualify?

It does. 

1, 2, 3, 4 years do not. Even 5, like Nah says on the first thread, she is not sure if at 5.5 she qualified. I think it does. However, what is long term when there are people at 10 or more years? 5 would be half of 10. Therefore, maybe middle?

Still, from five onwards it has been a long time.

Lets not start to take this thread where it does not belong to. It was asked to be created for a reason and it was. Lets leave it for Old Timers to talk about their issues, how they fells as their journey goes on, etc.

I'm just delighted to hear that Anjae and LearningImOk are in a good place and feeling like their life is THEIRS. 

Thank you Stayed.

Things did change for me. You, and everyone that was and still is around know it was a long, difficult process. Now I feel the way I wrote. It would not make sense not to say what/how I feel.

Can it change? It can. Nothing is static. But I like my now.

Learning also has her truth and her changes and I think the same goes for many of us. MLC has movement, albeit when it comes to the MLCer is seems snail passed, and the same is true of the LBS journey. 

Each of us will take whatever time we will, each of us may end up feeling differently, but none of us will be the same as time goes by.

[stayed]

Each of us will take whatever time we will, each of us may end up feeling differently, but none of us will be the same as time goes by.

True 'dat! 

Have a great life Anjae… you deserve it.

Stayed

[Anjae]

Have a great life Anjae… you deserve it.

Thank you, Stayed.

[LearningIamOk]

Yes, thank you Stayed and Anjae. You two have been straight shooters with me since I first landed here. I am tired of the lament that people don't feel "safe" posting. I didn't feel comfortable posting a lot of the time, early on, because I feared answers I wouldn't like. After a while, I came to respect and look forward to the replies that didn't sugarcoat things. MLC comes with very hard truths for the LBS.

Brenross, you are not familiar with my story because I stopped having a thread several years ago. I feel posters need to be open to hear all sides of a discussion. If someone feels "attacked" then the responses they received have hit a nerve. I feel that the "injured" poster should take a long, hard look inside themselves to see why the observation/comment/advice upset them. Let's face it, the truth hurts.

I never would have gotten my life back on track if it weren't for the 2x4's I was given when I needed them. It's easy to fall on the floor in a pity party wishing this never happened and remembering all the fabulous times you had as a married couple. When you are crippled by memories from moving forward and taking back your life, you need to make an effort to let go of the past.

One thing that helped me was the positive and negative reactions of my children. They were all over 21 and still living with me. They were mean and beastly when I was a sobbing mess. When I started to GAL, they started to look at me differently and became my cheerleaders. The better I got, the better they got. That propelled me even further forward.

Now, nearly 8 years into this, I am happy again. I did that by soul searching, counseling, coming here and listening to various opinions, mentoring here, and even being schooled by my mentees. I learned from everyone I could.

I am in a wonderful relationship. WRG and I have been together for over 5 years now. He shows me what a normal relationship looks like. He keeps me grounded when I want to go to Defcon 5 over the unfairness of MLC and a broken marriage. And no, I truly do not remember my xH really being in my life. It's just a distant memory.

I can look at pictures of us as a young couple, with our babies, vacations, holidays, etc., and I don't get emotional. It's just something that was that isn't anymore.

Brenross, no one here needs to wear a suit of armor and run interference and protect the poor posters who feel threatened. They will learn more by learning to stand up for themselves. Let them respond. We don't know our true strength until we are tested.

I hope you find peace in your life. I hope you find that MLC has Silver Linings you never imagined you would find. I hope you become a role model for your children as they look to you for guidance on how to navigate life and all it throws at them.

I have reached a place in my life that I am grateful for all the things I have learned from this heartache. I am grateful for all the new friends I have made here on HS and in real life. I am grateful for all of the wonderful adventures I have had that would never have taken place if not for MLC. It is surely not a path I would have chosen, but I have learned to roll with the punches and find my Silver Linings.   

[Trustandlove]

Interesting....

I am definitely an old-timer, second I believe only to Anjae in how long this has been going on.

And yes, the tone of posts has changed.  Anjae is posting how she feels now, which is different to how she felt even just a few months ago.  So the tone of her posts has changed as well.  I'm not going to get into whether if it's for the better or worse, it'd different.

I remember DGU very well, he was always very straight, and yes, his line of "what part of the word crisis do you not understand" is an important one for me.

He did manage to somehow never scold people for how they felt, he just pointed out that crisis was crisis, which is why the MLCers were behaving as they were.  And that we, as LBS, should do our best to not take it personally. 

I think it's often hard to get a tone across in a written post, we all write what we feel at the moment, including those who say that they don't feel that posters need to feel protected from feeling threatened.  And I'm sure that will come across differently than I intended it to, I really just am trying to state a fact, a situation, or whatever, I am in no way shape or form trying to say that we should or shouldn't do anything.

As for me, I always came to this site for comfort, so can well understand that reading something that doesn't provide that is disappointing.  I am completely capable of figuring my own life out, real life lets me know again and again that no one will coddle or protect me; it's here that I used to feel that I could say what I felt when I was feeling down, so I do get it when people say that they feel shot down.

I don't think anyone is trying to shoot anyone down on purpose, the truth is that we don't really know what someone is thinking when they are posting, whether they are the ones looking for comfort or the ones "telling it like it is".  Which is why I do believe that we should try to be a bit gentle. 

But again, just my opinion. 

[Mitzpah]

It's curious what upsets some does not upset others...

Although I am an old timer, due to the nature of my relationship with the father of my children in which he comes round to our house to spend time with our children (all young adults), work on motorcycles and even host bbqs  , it is difficult to say that I have forgotten him, he is part of my day to day, either by the kids referencing him or by his actual presence.

I cannot say that I 'like' things they way they are  - they are what they are and we make the best of it!

I have no control over his choices, only mine. I have my few boundaries in place and I 'feel' at peace with that.

My excellent memories of a a very happy marriage are intact and I can smile fondly at the photos or remembrances that come up. In fact, when I see or overhear other couples fighting or abusing each other with bad language, I shake my head and am sad for them because I never knew that. I was NEVER treated badly during my marriage, there were arguments, differences of opinion, misunderstandings but never abuse, aggression or any kind of violence or disrespect.

I have given up asking why and accepted that God has a reason for this and He will guide me in my life going forward. I don't have much time to think about MLC any more, I am too busy with the business of living.

I suppose that for some the memories disappearing or becoming more and more distant is healing. I think that when one enters a new relationship, it would be natural to put the memories of an earlier life aside, in the same way, if you don't have children together, it would also be very natural. I have three young adult kids who look very much like their father and have a close relationship with him, so it is natural that I am reminded of him daily!

So, even among old timers, you will see differences

[Thunder]

I agree with that, Mitzpah.

Maybe it just depends on how your H/W treated you after going into their crisis..

I have many memories of my 1st H, but unfortunately they were mostly bad memories I wish I didn't have.

[xyzcf]

All of us are different and we all had different marriages. Like Mitzphah, I cringe when I hear good friends talk to their husbands in a way I never did.

I do not forget him and my memories are vivid. They have not diminished. I have had to learn to live with them and actually, that is ok for me.

I always thought DGU should become a therapist. He would be an amazing one.

[Songanddance]

As a young Old timer (5.5 years) I find this thread really interesting.

It is good to hear from those who are much further down the road whether reconciled or not - Stayed and Anjae are 2 cases in point. 

It is good to know that whatever the outcome the LBS can heal, can grow, can move forward for self  and more importantly learn with an open mind that everyone else's experiences of the MLC crisis is different even though there is clearly a script that MLCers follow in the early days.

Yes this forum is compassionate in its outlook and for most newbies is the right place to go.  The learning the newbie undertakes is then up to them.   Several or even five years on there has to be the hope that the LBS has grown enough to no longer need sugar coated answers or an abundance of well meaning but non commital comments that don't really make the LBS think. 

Sometimes 2x4s are dealt and sometimes they may be too soon but that doesn't mean they are handed down out for negative reasons. Usually they are handed down out of frustration because we care and hate to see the LBS repeat a pattern incessantly.

I remember very clearly in my second thread Stayed whacking me "over the head" with a get real style comment. I was told that this would last at least 5 years before a turn-around and then another 5 years before reconciliation would be confirmed.   I remember writing NO NO NO!  However - that's what I needed to hear - not what I wanted but what I needed to hear.  And for that I will always be grateful.

Keep talking Anjae, LIAOK and others - how else are the young old timers like me going to learn more if you don't? 

[Ready2Transform]

I resonate a lot with your thoughts, T&L. On the topic of memories, here's some food for thought. As someone who had no children with my xH, I think what kept me stuck walking down "memory lane" was the fact that my environment was basically the same for so long after BD. I worked from home still, so always here, in "our home." But I noticed a shift in the last year or so where I remember less about our time here together than I do things that have happened since he's been gone. I added it up and it was around the time when I'd officially been here longer alone than we had together. Pets passing away from old age issues over the last three years have also taken away familiarity that would trigger memories. It happens gradually, but as you don't have things reminding you all the time, the brain keeps the new experiences closer to the top. And that's even with the contact and drama I've had with xH over the last year. I won't say I don't really remember him or our relationship, but it doesn't carry much weight in my heart anymore.

[Loyal]

I feel posters need to be open to hear all sides of a discussion. If someone feels "attacked" then the responses they received have hit a nerve. I feel that the "injured" poster should take a long, hard look inside themselves to see why the observation/comment/advice upset them. Let's face it, the truth hurts.

I never would have gotten my life back on track if it weren't for the 2x4's I was given when I needed them. It's easy to fall on the floor in a pity party wishing this never happened and remembering all the fabulous times you had as a married couple. When you are crippled by memories from moving forward and taking back your life, you need to make an effort to let go of the past.

Totally agree with this but unfortunately a fellow LBS from HS with whom I used to be in regular contact has severed all contact after telling me very adamantly that she does not want to bring her children up on her own, to which I told her and only meant it well, that she has to be realistic and any plans she makes for the foreseeable future should disclude her V as in his present state of mind he`s definitely not behaving like a F and it could take years for him to come out of his fog.

BTW, I`m probably an Oldtimer too, my ex CB, now V (living up the road with OW) MLC started in 2010 but it took me years (very slow learner) before finding out the very hard way that the advice given pn here from the Vets is invaluable and would  have faired a lot better if I hadn`t been so stubborn and thought my MLCer  was different and would come to his senses.

[stayed]

Lol Loyal, you are definitely an "old timer"!  hehehe...

Doesn't matter how long it takes, just as long as EVENTUALLY you get it and take BACK YOUR LIFE!  That's all that really matters. 

One day at a time... hugs Stayed

[Anjae]

Anjae is posting how she feels now, which is different to how she felt even just a few months ago.  So the tone of her posts has changed as well.  I'm not going to get into whether if it's for the better or worse, it'd different. ~

I also don't know if my post now are better or worst, they are indeed different.

So, even among old timers, you will see differences

Glad it is so. We're all different, we have different MLCers and different journeys.  How boring if we were alike and how impossible it would be to learn anything new.

It happens gradually, but as you don't have things reminding you all the time, the brain keeps the new experiences closer to the top

This. For those whose MLCer is always around, I don't think it happens the same way. The person is always around. Or contacts a lot, etc.

8 years, Loyal? Of course you're an Old Timer.

[TopsyTurvy]

I'm a kind of young 'old-timer' 5 years on Saturday since he walked out.  (5.3 since BD)

When I was 1 year in, I met a 3yr in LBS, I was surprised that she was still feeling so horrible....until I got to 3 years and I felt the same.  At this point she was 5 years in and getting to a better place, although not completely detached.  I am now at 5 years, (she is at 7+ years and from this site, I know she is doing well.)  How do I feel.... sometimes difficult to put into words.  Memories, I avoid thinking about them.  A wise LBS 2 yrs behind me tells me that I shouldn't avoid them, but something 'stops' me from going there in my head.  I remember what he looks like, I remember we had 17 fantastic years together, I guess I don't want to be reminded of what I no longer have (with him).  I haven't spoken with him f2f in almost 3 years, telephone call in over 2 years and a text in June 2017 post the divorce which I initiated.  I belong on the Vanisher thread

I have so much more to be very grateful for, and I am.  I have my health (fingers crossed), my family, fabulous friends here and in RL.  Some of this I would not have had if I hadn't experienced his MLC.  And just like Learning....

I have reached a place in my life that I am grateful for all the things I have learned from this heartache. I am grateful for all the new friends I have made here on HS and in real life. I am grateful for all of the wonderful adventures I have had that would never have taken place if not for MLC. It is surely not a path I would have chosen, but I have learned to roll with the punches and find my Silver Linings.   

We heal at different times and that's ok.  What works for one doesn't work for another, whatever the outcome we are stronger than we think and we will be ok.

[serenity]

Good to see you posting Topsy,

and glad to hear you’re doing ok. I’m over 7 years now and I think in a way you just learn to accept your own reality. We build new lives and start on a new direction in life. Not where any of us expected to be but it’s mostly all good and we all seem to end up just being ok.

My H has always been a boomerang and at times clinging. This year we have all noticed changes in him, improvements if you like but it’s all very slow. I just hope he makes it through to the end of his journey.

Hugs

X

[LearningIamOk]

I feel posters need to be open to hear all sides of a discussion. If someone feels "attacked" then the responses they received have hit a nerve. I feel that the "injured" poster should take a long, hard look inside themselves to see why the observation/comment/advice upset them. Let's face it, the truth hurts.

I never would have gotten my life back on track if it weren't for the 2x4's I was given when I needed them. It's easy to fall on the floor in a pity party wishing this never happened and remembering all the fabulous times you had as a married couple. When you are crippled by memories from moving forward and taking back your life, you need to make an effort to let go of the past.

Totally agree with this but unfortunately a fellow LBS from HS with whom I used to be in regular contact has severed all contact after telling me very adamantly that she does not want to bring her children up on her own, to which I told her and only meant it well, that she has to be realistic and any plans she makes for the foreseeable future should disclude her V as in his present state of mind he`s definitely not behaving like a F and it could take years for him to come out of his fog.

BTW, I`m probably an Oldtimer too, my ex CB, now V (living up the road with OW) MLC started in 2010 but it took me years (very slow learner) before finding out the very hard way that the advice given pn here from the Vets is invaluable and would  have faired a lot better if I hadn`t been so stubborn and thought my MLCer  was different and would come to his senses.

Loyal, I am sorry that the LBS you had made friends with has severed ties. As you can see here, we are all different and at different points in our journeys. You are at different point of healing than she is. You seem to be more like me. I like facing things head on. And, I completely agree with what you told her. She just isn't ready to accept it yet. Hopefully, she will get there. Don't be afraid to speak the truth to someone. You might be the only one they hear it from.

[Anjae]

Hi Topsy, thanks for posting and for contributing. 

[stayed]

Don't be afraid to speak the truth to someone. You might be the only one they hear it from.

I so, so agree with this... always speak your truth Loyal.. it may not be what they want to hear, in fact, it probably is not what they want to hear but "kitty footing around", trying to not hurt their feelings simply is not the right thing to do.  Her partner may OR may not come out of his/her crisis..... the LBS has to be readied to accept the worst possible case scenario. 

Well said... hugs Stayed

[Loyal]

Thanks Stayed, it`s sad that she took it so personally but I don`t bear her any grudges, which is probably due to doing a lot of mirror work and working on myself in the past few months, which is one of the posititive things that all of us LBSers get around to doing at some stage during the MLC Horror Trip that none of us wants to be on.

[trusting]

And trusting, I always look for your posts, I know how long this has been for you.  It is heartening to hear that things may be changing for the better!  I still have no idea if my H will make it through, but every now and again I become aware that perhaps his rosy new life isn't so rosy.

I think of you often x

So I am bringing this quote from BBhelp's thread here since I didn't want to hijack and wanted to respond more to T&L and to make a couple comments.  So it has been 10 years since right around exactly this time when I really began to see the major MLC changes in my MLCer - the weight loss, obsession with appearance, complete inability to handle money like an adult, drastic pulling away from family and the anger and the blame and the monster (and no doubt an affair).  MLC behavior went on for years and years.

The changes in him these days are remarkable.  He is not "crazy" anymore.  I may have said this before, but I do think he is pretty well out of his crisis.  He is so much like the man I knew.  I see big efforts to establish relationships with the kids again.  My daughter once again seems to have daddy wrapped around her little finger - after almost a decade of no daddy to speak of (though I would say reconnection has been happening gradually the past couple of years with a big push forward in the past 3-4 months).  It really is amazing to me, as it seemed like it would never happen.  His relationship with me is comfortable.  No more anger, never monster, even kind - still not my husband, but I would say a friend.   

MLC sure takes time.  And no, I'm still not a fan of "the gift of time." 

T&L, I was beginning to think he wouldn't make it through either after so much time.  But now I think he is emerging.  I don't think there is ever no hope.  Hugs.

[xyzcf]

Trust the process trusting.

Praying for your "suddenly".

[Anjae]

Thank you for posting, trusting.

Sometimes there is no hope. Ursa'a FIL died a MLCer, some 30 years after his crisis started. He never come out of it.

But I think, and always thought, most MLCers come out of crisis. I have also always thought most marriages will not reconcile. MLC takes too long and most LBS move on, with someone else or alone.

It is confusing to me how, after ten years, you and your husband manage to get back together and things still work fine. Everyone changes in ten years. In ten years LBS and MLCer would have changed a lot and they are no longer who they used to me.

Can you elaborate? Even if he would fully come out of crisis tomorrow, Mr J would be a stranger to me. His pre-MLC self is not up to date with current me.

[trusting]

Thanks, XYZ.  Speaking of "trusting the process," for anyone interested, I recently saw DGU and was able to catch up with him.  He used to remind us to trust the process all the time.

Anjae, it is kind of hard to explain.  There are times when my MLCer is around that it truly feels like no time has passed - you know, like when you see a good friend you haven't seen for a very long time but are able to pick up right where you left off.  Of course, then I do remember the years in between and the pain and that he isn't really my husband either right now.  Yes, we both have changed over 10 years but the core is still the same.  Of course, my MLCer has always not been far.  And I really don't know what will happen in the future.

[xyzcf]

It is confusing to me how, after ten years, you and your husband manage to get back together and things still work fine. Everyone changes in ten years. In ten years LBS and MLCer would have changed a lot and they are no longer who they used to me.

Every time I have seen My xyzcf, it always feels right...I actually feel better in his presence than I do in the long stretches I do not see him. There is a connection Anjae, an unbreakable bond between us.

People that I know that have reconnected seem to be able to make it work again, and indeed I have heard some say it is better than it once was.

In therapy the other day, it was pointed out to me that I had exhibited "joy" twice during the session..once when I was explaining the gift he recently brought me and the other when I was explaining how he had kissed me....I am almost as long as trusting into this...I still love him...expect I always will and so I would very much like us to be together again..may not happen though.

Even BBhelps thread talks glowingly of their marriage now...who wouldn't want the chance of that?

[Anjae]

Every time I have seen My xyzcf, it always feels right...I actually feel better in his presence than I do in the long stretches I do not see him.

That does not happen to me. The few times I saw Mr J since I come back - 4, I didn'f felt any connection. And I didn't felt better in his presence. One time I felt pretty uncomfortable, two indifferent and the other normal. The thought of him around me raises my stress levels. 

The few times we spoke on the phone after I come back I felt drained and whished I hadn't spoke with in, including last August. I feel much better when I don't see him or hear from him.

Some of us may always feel the unbreakable bond, but as any HS member who is on second, or third marriage, knows, the bond does at times break. I doubt Thunder has any unbreakable bond with her first abusive husband. Or Ursa with his first wife. Never jus posted on her thread that she stop having feelings for her first husband and that she knows feelings can go away.

People that I know that have reconnected seem to be able to make it work again, and indeed I have heard some say it is better than it once was.

Sure. But did any of those people had a had an abusive MLCer? Do you think In It and her MLCer would be happy again? Or LP and her husband?

In therapy the other day, it was pointed out to me that I had exhibited "joy" twice during the session..once when I was explaining the gift he recently brought me and the other when I was explaining how he had kissed me....

The last time Mr J sent me a gif was some CD back in late 2007. I said thanks and that was it. Mr J has not kissed me in way over a decade. And I can't say his last kisses by then where anything to remember. Rushed, cold, horrible kisses. I wouldn't let him kiss me now. I wouldn't even let him hug me. Cheek kiss, maybe since here that is a social greeting.

I still love him...expect I always will and so I would very much like us to be together again

You still love your husband and would like for the two of you to be together again. That makes sense.

Even BBhelps thread talks glowingly of their marriage now...who wouldn't want the chance of that?

BBhelps wife was not like Mr J and her crisis was short and mild. You husband is not like Mr J. A chance at that with Mr J? No. I would like a change at that with someone I love. I don't love Mr J.

That said, I felt the unbreakable bond for many, many years. Then I no longer did. I used to think, like all of us, we were meant to be together again. Then that also changed.

But none of that changes the fact that in ten years, or more, people change a lot. Let alone a LBS and  a MLCer.

[OldPilot]

MLC sure takes time.  And no, I'm still not a fan of "the gift of time." 

Sorry that I had to give it to you but so glad you posted an update.

I would love to hear about DGU too!

Great update.

[Mitzpah]

Trusting,

So good to hear of the "progress" with your h.

I am not a fan of the gift of time either. At least, not in MLC 

Anjae, it is kind of hard to explain.  There are times when my MLCer is around that it truly feels like no time has passed - you know, like when you see a good friend you haven't seen for a very long time but are able to pick up right where you left off.  Of course, then I do remember the years in between and the pain and that he isn't really my husband either right now.  Yes, we both have changed over 10 years but the core is still the same.  Of course, my MLCer has always not been far.  And I really don't know what will happen in the future.

I understand this too - when my h. is around, it does feel right and we get on very well - like you, he is definitely not my husband in the sense that would  interest me but he certainly is the father of our children  and he is comfortable in the house. Also, it is often like no time has passed  even though it has been almost eight years.

The difference in my case is that there is an active ow which is kind of ignored when he is around me. She is never mentioned and he has become more careful about his phone or maybe she doesn't call/message as much as she used to, IDK. I refuse to talk about her and he seems to understand that, maybe it is more comfortable for him to compartamentalize his two lives anyway.

[stayed]

This is really fascinating!  So pleased that you are seeing some signs of life within your h Trusting, such a great update.  I do would love to hear how DGU is doing...

Funny, not in a ha ha way but in a "strange" sort of way, that we all now look at this event in our lives, like we are reviewing a movie.  So much pain, agony even and now, whether we see our spouses every day, or once a year, or have managed to reconcile, we find ourselves looking at it as though it was a terrible experiment that went badly wrong.  We look at every angle, twist it, inspect it closely but without the desperate desire to understand, any longer.  I actually believe that is because we do UNDERSTAND, we totally understand and accept that this has happened and in many ways, has made us much better people then we were.  Without a doubt, an episode we all could have done without but a sure comprehension that for some bazaar reason, this was meant to happen.  I guess you could say, we have all stopped fighting our destiny, now confidently facing whatever is ahead of us.

I can understand your comments Anjae, you seldom have even the simplest contact with your spouse.  Those of us that do and continue to, can't help but look to see if anything has changed within them,  hope springs eternal.  Especially for those who have children with their lost MLCer. 

I actually know several MLCer's that have returned.  All of them were at some point had vanished sometimes only for a few weeks like my husband for example but all of these reconciliations have ended really very well.  The MLCer's like mine, were very remorseful, really happy, content, actually rather thrilled to be given another chance.  Certainly, we would be lying if we said everything was/is perfect, we all know that is absolutely not possible.  That being said, all of us have talked about how much more honest we all are with ourselves, our spouses and each other. 

All of us have discussed how we still trigger and how there is no way of actually predicting when they strike.  To claim that my h ALWAYS reacts positively and reassuringly when I do trigger, again would be a lie.  He is human, he is just as set in his ways as I am, so depending on what the trigger is, his reaction to it is as different and unpredictable as mine is. 

What I am saying is, our life together has resumed.  In many ways it is much, much better, I love the honesty.... that being said, I still find him bossy and controlling and find I have to assert myself more frequently then I would like.  Assertiveness is not really a comfortable place I think or most women.  We are raised to be more obedient and submissive... it is just considered more "lady like"!  Quite frankly, I think it is a very well known technique for keeping women in their "rightful place" at least as far as many men see it and in many faiths.  I have never responded well to repression but at the same time, admit the training did have it's effect on me, as I do NOT FEEL VERY COMFORTABLE opposing any man, let alone my h.  Women truly need to work on that and as mothers we need to stop perpetuating this "lady like" behaviour and just let us grow up into the person we are going to be... as boys should be raised to not believe "boys will be boys"!  That's a whole other topic hehehe...

I can understand all of the comments here. I can totally get that Anjae now feels nothing for her h other then perhaps some disgust.  It is hard to grasp how anybody can treat a person the way her spouse treated her.  I also can understand when Xyz and Mitzpah say how at "peace" they feel when they are with their spouse, even while they were at their worse, just being with them somehow felt more complete then when they weren't around.  I was in your camp ladies.  The only time I felt any sort of calm, even when he was being a complete A$$ was when I was with him.

It is very important that these differenct feelings of the LBS be expressed.... good, bad or indifferent.  It is not speaking "ill" of the MLCer, but not everybody comes away feeling sorry for them, or any particular kindness, although I do not know of a single LBS that wishes their spouse actual HARD TIMES.. I am sure there are some, but they don't seem to say such things, at least not in this forum.

Good discussion... Hugs and wishing everybody Peace.... Stayed

[megogirl]

Stayed -

Your H's letter was amazing.  Actually, I printed it and put it in my H's bag of mail (he still gets some mail here), highlighting the portion about forgiveness.

I did this for one reason: when I had bulimia, I really believed that purging was my "choice."  Then, I bought a book on bulimia and the author said, "I believed I was taking care of myself."  And so did I.....

Something about seeing those words, in print, hit home.  I was really sick.

I don't expect any reaction, but if he realizes other people have felt exactly what he's feeling, perhaps something will register, however slight.

[xyzcf]

Stayed. Incredibly wise words. Thank you for your observations. You have certainly seen a plethera of situations.

All the best to both of you. Always glad to hear that it is possible to survive this nightmare with or without reconciliation.

[Anjae]

One more who would love to hear from DGU.

I am sorry, Trusting, yesterday I missed your reply.

There are times when my MLCer is around that it truly feels like no time has passed - you know, like when you see a good friend you haven't seen for a very long time but are able to pick up right where you left off.

I understand. I felt it twice with Mr J. On a phone phone call (legal reasons) I could hear music and asked what he was listening to, he replied and we talked a little about music.

And when we seated side by side, with an empty seat between us, on the court waiting room reading. It felt like when we were home reading on the couch. We didn't exchange a word.

Other than that, as a general rule, it was always awful. Even e-mail contact tended to be horrible. When I was still in the capital it was different, mostly, I think, because I was under the shock of BD. Or because at times things seemed normal amonst the madness. Like when Mr J would come by the flat and dine there or when we went to concerts.

But he would also get violent, or would cry, or would be nuts. And, by then, there was OW1 and now there is OW2.

I also understand that seeing the MLCer often/have a certain level of contact with the MLCer is different from seldom, if ever seeing the MLCer. And that depending of our situation our feelings towards the MLC are/may be different.

But, at least for me, it becomes old. More than 12 years down the road monster is still exists and there is no real progress.

Did my core changed? I don't know. I was 18 when I started dating Mr J, 37 about to be 38 when he left. In a month a few weeks I will be 50. There are many things that used to be relevant to me that no longer are. And Mr J's core, the core I knew, no longer fits current me. His normal core is a kids core compared with current me. Still, who knows? Never and forever are two things we realy don't know.

However, I don't want to deal with a reconnecting MLCer. Had it be 3, 5, even 7 years down the road, maybe even 10, I would. Now? No. I don't want the ups and downs, the problems that come with reconnection. I want a new relationship, but it has to be one without the issues of reconnection.

Funny, not in a ha ha way but in a "strange" sort of way, that we all now look at this event in our lives, like we are reviewing a movie.

It does become like reviewing a movie. At least to me, it does. In an interesting way, it is like it happened to someone else. Going by your husband's letter, the same happens to the MLCer.

I have hope for Mr J, Stayed. I don't want him to be trapped into MLC forever. That is no place/way to live. But that is different from wanting to deal with a reconnecting MLCer, or thiking that we would be a great couple again. It is possible we would be a great couple again, but I would only considered it after Mr J's crisis being totally over. We know when they return they return broken.

The disgust phase towards Mr J is gone. I don't feel anything I can identify. It is possible that there is still love, but in a format I do not recognise as such.

It is very important that these differenct feelings of the LBS be expressed.... good, bad or indifferent

Agree.

It is also important to say that how we feel changes. With time, with life, etc. I can't say for sure never, because I do not know. I only know how I felt know and how I used to feel.

I should also say that I think Mr J has tested the waters a few times, in his clumsy MLC way. As a general rule, if he sends a polite e-mail, he gets a polite reply. Once, he started to demand that we meet in person because he wanted to exchange stuff and I told him I wouldn't because I never know how his mood is and if he is, or is not, going to be agressive. It much have registered because early this year he sent an e-mail saying he had found some journals of mine and wanted my address to send them over.

He knows I don't find it safe to be around him - in a social context where I am with friends it is different - and knows the reasons why. He also knows I don't like to talk to him because he often becomes nasty. It makes no sense to me not to tell him why I don't want him around me. For those who may not know, Mr J was the king of clingers. It was I that cut contact more and more. He only made me feel exhausted, stressed, upsetted. He also knows that.

The difficulty for me is not being assertive, it is the oppossite, be a little less assertive (or even not assertive). Being assertive was a tremendous problem when Mr J's MLC started and I think remained a problem as his crisis carried on. I understand why he went for the non-assertive, totally my opposite OW1. At BD, of course I didn't.

[HeartTattoo]

That darn "Notify" button doesn't always work & I have only now checked this thread to find such a wonderful series of posts from "Old Timers". Despite the similarities of MLC, our situations are very much different & our reactions different as well. All equally valid; they are our very own experiences after all.

I am now just a couple of months shy of 6 years since BD. My H has always been mostly a Vanisher & I did nothing to change that dynamic. I did crave seeing him early on, when I unrealistically thought his MLC would be different, would be shorter than anyone else's  I was at the other end of some timely 2x4's over that delusion myself. But I have done nothing to try to change his Vanishing ways. It has always hurt me to think of him with the OW & I cannot imagine having "polite" contact with him & OW (now his W) like some LBS's do. I have always said that I do better pretending he is dead, but of course, I really think that is a bit of denial 

I think of my H every single day. Sometimes fleeting, sometimes more extended memories of a specific time in our lives. I don't know exactly when the change happened from such thoughts being excruciatingly painful to now being simply neutral. A transition over time, of course.

My one brief phone encounter with him a few months ago told me that he was still self-absorbed, still not really thinking straight, & still "taking orders" from the OW. When he lost his job he thought I should "forgive" the remaining year of alimony, despite his having considerable assets. Not one question about how I was doing or how such an action might affect my well-being. He had just "been told" to ask me (lawyer? OW? both?)

I love my H & I would welcome some sort of R with him, but I truly doubt that he could muster what it would take to work through the pain & injustice of his actions. Throughout the years of our M he was often in denial about how his actions (smoking, alcoholism, single-minded focus on his job) affected his family. I really cannot imagine him being able to face what his MLC, infidelity, & abandonment did to his family.

[serenity]

Good to see you posting again HeartTattoo

Sorry your H is still away with the fairies

X

[trusting]

For those who were asking, DGU is doing well and avoids thinking about MLC these days.  Work and football keep him too busy, I guess. 

But did any of those people had a had an abusive MLCer?

I think reconnection is still possible if the LBS is willing, of course. One of the hallmarks of MLC is that this person our spouses have become is nothing, NOTHING like the one they were before.  And in my case, the man I see now is nothing like the MLCer I saw for many years but so much like the man I knew before.  I guess it depends on degrees, but I would venture to classify all MLCers as abusive in some way.  Indeed, the way my H treated me sure felt cruel, emotionally abusive.  I also think the act of walking away from a marriage and a family without giving the other party one word of say in it is abuse.  That feeling of helplessness was one of the most difficult things for me to conquer.  We are "helpless" - there is not one thing we can do to stop them on their MLC paths. 

Unlike Mitzpah and XYZ, I never felt comfortable around my MLCer or better in his presence while he was deep in crisis.  He was cold, would only answer in grunts, body language let me know I was a pariah and apparently had a raging case of the cooties.  So not feeling like I'm walking on eggshells is a different experience now. 

Funny, not in a ha ha way but in a "strange" sort of way, that we all now look at this event in our lives, like we are reviewing a movie.  So much pain, agony even and now, whether we see our spouses every day, or once a year, or have managed to reconcile, we find ourselves looking at it as though it was a terrible experiment that went badly wrong.  We look at every angle, twist it, inspect it closely but without the desperate desire to understand, any longer.  I actually believe that is because we do UNDERSTAND, we totally understand and accept that this has happened and in many ways, has made us much better people then we were.  Without a doubt, an episode we all could have done without but a sure comprehension that for some bazaar reason, this was meant to happen.  I guess you could say, we have all stopped fighting our destiny, now confidently facing whatever is ahead of us.

Great post, Stayed.  And I think getting to this point was where I could actually really and truly heal and let go of the anger and unforgiveness.  I have stopped trying to figure it all out and now understand that I never will.  It happened.  It is life-altering.  Life does have to go on, with or without the MLCer.  It is encouraging to hear you know of several returned MLCers and how their relationships are doing so well now.  Still waiting to see what happens but thankful for what I have. 

[Mitzpah]

Unlike Mitzpah and XYZ, I never felt comfortable around my MLCer or better in his presence while he was deep in crisis.  He was cold, would only answer in grunts, body language let me know I was a pariah and apparently had a raging case of the cooties.  So not feeling like I'm walking on eggshells is a different experience now. 

HI Trusting,

I guess the reason I feel comfortable around my h. is because I don't see him too often and he is careful to 'respect' me in terms of not allowing ow to intervene on our family time together - probably because I made this boundary very clear. He is  careful that the kids respect me too and will call their attention if they are disrespectful in his presence.

I can imagine that you having your h. right there in the same house would be VERY uncomfortable - I had the option of walking away from perceived bad behavior, I would just get up and go out or do my best to 'miss' him when I felt uncomfortable with him coming round.

Nowadays, as the crisis seems to be waning somewhat, it is fine for me to come home and see him there, it's a good chance to catch up and show him some affection before he gets frightened off and, leave he does... every.single.time.!

No idea what it all means but I am glad you are feeling better around your h.

[OldPilot]

For those who were asking, DGU is doing well and avoids thinking about MLC these days.  Work and football keep him too busy, I guess. 

Well that is the way it was years ago too - so glad he is doing well.

Thanks for the update, and next time you see him send our best wishes.

[Anjae]

Thank for letting us know DGU is doing well, Trusting. Tell him we say hi.

Pretty much all MLCers are abusive, however, if the MLCer has been pyshically abusive and/or tried to kill us, it is different.

It is also different it there was a very ugly divore/legalities. Or both, ugly legalities and physical violence.

We know it is not the real person, but ...

[trusting]

I'll pass along greetings to DGU next time I see him.  Yes, OP, his life hasn't changed a whole lot! 

Mitzpah, my H actually finally left a couple years ago to take a job further away - the excuse he wanted.  However, maybe that's what he needed to finally move him along in his crisis because he certainly has been changing a lot for the better the last few months.  It also has allowed my heart to heal without having the rejection in my face every day.  Still, he is in almost daily contact and we sure see a lot of him.

[Anjae]

I'll pass along greetings to DGU next time I see him.  Yes, OP, his life hasn't changed a whole lot! 

Thank you. But no races? What happened to Nascar? 

[trusting]

I'll pass along greetings to DGU next time I see him.  Yes, OP, his life hasn't changed a whole lot! 

Thank you. But no races? What happened to Nascar? 

Oh, yes, there's that too! 

[Anjae]

Oh, yes, there's that too!

 

[LearningIamOk]

Reading along here. Trusting I am so glad that things are going so well for you. 
I hope that things continue to improve.

Please also send my greetings and best wishes to DGU. Does he still have his dog?

[trusting]

Please also send my greetings and best wishes to DGU. Does he still have his dog?

No, sadly, she succumbed to very old doggy age a couple of years ago.

[Treasur]

Some of us are religious, some not, some are unsure or believe in something different.
But I think all of us reach a point where we learn to trust that inner small intuitive voice that says no, or enough or this is what I want to do, irrespective of where we think the voice comes from.
Hard to hear it initially when we are reeling in shock, but as we let go and focus on ourselves, it gets easier to hear I think. And to trust our gut regardless of what anyone else is doing or thinks we should do.
Some of HBs advice and perspective is useful particularly if you are standing, but of course she is just one person and informed by her own experience. To be fair, I don't think her or RCR have ever claimed to be more than that.

[Anjae]

The voice will show when we are ready. Or, like you said, it may always had been there, buried under the shock of BD. Each of us will know when it is right to decide this or that. And to do things when it feels right.

I find lots of HB advice quite useful, including her view on forgiveness - for her, it comes in layers, not at once. https://thestagesandlessonsofmidlife.org/forgiveness-has-many-layers-an-explanation/

Even if I disagree, or have troubles with some of the things HB writes, I find her articles interesting. She has been adjusting them over time, making them more realistic and is aware, even says so, that there may not be a reconciliation and that both LBS and MLCer may not like the new person both have become.

I replace God with the Universe.

[OldPilot]

I replace God with the Universe.

I like to replace it with science, as most things in this process can be explained in those terms.

Point being it does not have to read as a religious idea.

[Anjae]

I like to replace it with science, as most things in this process can be explained in those terms.

Point being it does not have to read as a religious idea.

I use science for MLC (MLC has nothing to do with religion). But not for a replacement of God, like when HB is talking about God I think Universe instead.

[Treasur]

Maybe it would be interesting if RCR was up for it to add some articles written by old timers on the key issues, behaviours and ways to cope with them....a way to expand the perspective and knowledge? And there are some fine writers here with plenty of experience!

[Never say never]

OMG ... what 1t posted regarding UM's mom's view from a psychological viewpoint ... spot on ... spot on ... spot on.

I am tempted to screenshot the whole post and send it to my husband.  From the very first sentence to the last, I am just shaking my head in agreement.  And you know what?  I don't care who your higher power is ... it could be the grass on the ground ... but when you finally accept that higher power and embrace it, things will fall into place.

And instead of wasting so many precious years trying to fix what our spouses are/were missing, I wish every newbie could just understand that really, there is nothing you can do to speed up the process.  Until our spouses figure out what is missing within them, we are just wasting precious time working on our own happiness. 

UM, what an absolute genius your mom is.  I will read and reread that post.  Thank you.

As for the articles, I found HB's articles to really help me in my time of need.  Perhaps they need updating ... perhaps not ... it's all what the individual takes from it and what works for each of us.  Take what you need ... leave the rest behind.  The very first book I bought when my husband's MLC started was "Men in Midlife Crisis" by Jim Conway.  Way back then, I took my highlighter out, started reading fervently and could only check off some of the symptoms.

I thought:  "My, God, my husband would never be nasty to me.  He may be distant, but there is NO WAY he is cheating on me.  He's just going through some mild mid-life crisis."  Hahahahaha.  Little did I know what was to come.

I then bought another book:  "My husband's affair was the best thing that could happen to me."  I read that book over and over.  Of course, her husband probably was just having an affair or a MLT.  I thought it was good, but I would never say this is the best thing that ever happened to me.

If I could offer one piece of advice, it would be to stand if you want to stand and move forward in your journey without standing in place.  If this crisis is any less than, I'd say, four years, it's bound to resurface sometime down the road.  I know you can't put a number on it, but it took our spouses a long, long time to burst at their seams from whatever was demonizing them ... it's going to take a long, long time to restructure their brain to come out of this. 

I also would say, and this is just from my own experience, our spouses will have to find their higher power to get through this.  They cannot do it on their own.  I am hesitant to talk too much because my husband is not even home yet.  Who am I to say he is through his MLC?  I can say that I have never seen someone work so hard to better himself.  But remember, my husband also has another demon to deal with ... alcohol. 

I know ... off topic ... but I am very scared because I am seeing a pattern in my husband once again.  He has only been at sober living four months and is trying to save everyone else.  It's like he is avoiding his own issues and feels better helping others with theirs.  How can I get through to him?  I can't.  As I said on my own thread ... I have learned that no one can complete me but myself.  It took a l-o-n-g time to get there, but I can finally say I'm happy ... in a very different, grown-up sort of way.

I hope I am making some sense.  I tend to ramble, don't read through my posts before hitting the "post" button, and my brain tends to go in all different directions.  Hey, I'm a work in progress, too

[Thunder]

Your ramblings made perfect sense, Never.   

[Songanddance]

He has only been at sober living four months and is trying to save everyone else.  It's like he is avoiding his own issues and feels better helping others with theirs.

Isn't this though a normal thing to do?  I have noticed that some people who are dealing with a serious issue do help others and sort of put themselves into denial.  It's sometimes a way of coping with their own issues and it's also a way of trying to be "strong" and receive validation that the alcohol, drugs, etc... used to give them.

I'm explaining it badly I know but consider what happens on this forum.  LBSers post (hopefully soon after BD) and within a few months feel strong enough to advise and help others because it makes them feel better because they are learning too.  The denial bit is where they might receive advice which they don't want to hear or consider - not yet anyway.

Time time time Never (I hear you yawning and rolling your eyes!) 

4 months sober is progress and helping others may be what he needs to do to help him have the inner strength to make it to 5, 6 10 months etc.....

[Thunder]

I'm not sure how AA does things. 

It may be that they feel by him mentoring others he will give advice that is also good for him...and possibly confidence building.  I sure don't know but I would think if the counselors saw it as detrimental to his recovery they would say something.  Wouldn't you think?  They've had to have seen it all by now.

[Moving Forward]

Hello again all my fellow LBS's!!
I am not sure why I found my way back to the Forum after such a long time away. I think my recent rumination of the last 9 years, I am seeing Voyager soon for lunch and my thoughts were filled of everyone here.....so I thought I'd check in :-)

My life chugs along as ever. My children are now grown and loving their lives. They work hard and have a great circle of friends. Neither of them see their Dad too regularly, (he continues to be controlling of them and their time which they're really uncomfortable with it). My daughter is in her final year of school with no real idea what to do next. My son has taken a bit of time out to travel and is currently working in  a bar until he decides what he'd like to do next.

My exH remains married to the OW (although my daughter maintains he isn't happy and she looks sad a lot of the time), he is still running like the wind, still with the shark eyes and "me me me" outlook on his life. My daughter has remarked a few times how weird it's been as a few times it has been her  "old Dad" who was talking to her one without a waxy look and seemed genuinely animated and caring and who talked with a different tone of voice. She has had counselling to help her cope with her dad leaving and seems to have a pragmatic approach to her life and emotional well-being.

Whilst I have rebuilt my life from the inside out my exH still seems to be searching for something. I rarely seem him and for this I am grateful. I no longer stand for my marriage but I hope one day he will be someone I can have in my life in a healthy way but right now it simply isn't an option his energy is still spiky and sly and I still don't trust him.

I have had a little mooch on here to check in and it seems so many of the lovely people I knew from years ago are living great lives and turning their despair and devastation into hope and healing.

I read some LBS's posts and can recognise the same cycle of LBS's resisting change and striving to maintain a grip on their old lives despite them being no longer healthy. The same old arguments rolling around and around. AS the saying goes "resistance is futile" and my biggest healing came when I let go of the outcome of my journey and found the joy every day; living a life my future self would benefit from.

It's been wonderful to read of the reconciliations and the rebuilding of marriages and relationships which have been so bravely shared on this Forum.

I am so truly grateful to this site and the sharing of everyone here - without it I know I would be a shadow of who I am now. I don't have a man in my life and yet I am open to the possibility should someone walk into my life.


I am in the throes of planning my retirement in 3 years time and have realised that I am truly blessed to be able to be making proactive choices from a position of love rather than bitterness and it is partly as a direct result of this Forum that I am able to do so.

I will have a little scout around and catch up with everyone.

Big hugs and love to everyone who remembers me x

[Acorn]

I’m not an old timer by any stretch of imagination but felt compelled to comment on MF’s post.

Thank you, MF, for reminding me about the following.  They have been the cornerstone of my view on life and I’m glad to read them again. 

I read some LBS's posts and can recognise the same cycle of LBS's resisting change and striving to maintain a grip on their old lives despite them being no longer healthy. The same old arguments rolling around and around. AS the saying goes "resistance is futile" and my biggest healing came when I let go of the outcome of my journey and found the joy every day; living a life my future self would benefit from.

-snip-

I am in the throes of planning my retirement in 3 years time and have realised that I am truly blessed to be able to be making proactive choices from a position of love rather than bitterness and it is partly as a direct result of this Forum that I am able to do so.

Wishing you a very happy Thanksgiving!
Acorn

[xyzcf]

Enjoy lunch with Voyager and thanks for coming back and sharing where you are at.

This speaks volumes:

my biggest healing came when I let go of the outcome of my journey and found the joy every day; living a life my future self would benefit from.

The hard part is getting to this place where joy returns, new life is generated and new friends and memories are made. It does happen, regardless of the outcome.

Take care!

[Anjae]

Hi Moving Forward,

Nice to read you. Thank you for the update. Glad to know you and the kids are doing fine.

It is nice to see someone else with a long time MLCer posting and sharing their experience.

MLCers may be married/live with OW/OM for ages, but all it seems to do is making them even more unhappy.

Finding joy every day is really important.

Say hi to Voyager.

Hugs

[stayed]

Hi MF, what a delight hearing from you. What a journey eh?

Hugs Stayed

[LaughLoveLive]

I have popped back to the forum after many months and was happy to see an Oldtimers thread happening! BD for me was Dec 2011, almost 7 years ago so I’m guessing I qualify as an Oldtimer.

I suppose I got to thinking about HS  again because my H (XH now, sadly) married the original and only OW last month. I was surprisingly unfazed when my D23 shared the news but over the next few weeks different thoughts  have wandered through my mind.

My  D16 shrugged her shoulders and said “doesn’t affect me” but my D23 found the news very upsetting, angry mostly that they kept their plans a secret, only announcing after the event. After a few days, she was able to realise that keeping it a secret was H’s way to avoid a potentially difficult / awkward conversation  for as long as possible. She also said to me “she’s so clearly a bandaid but she just might stick forever”

I admit I thought well they must be happy together to be getting married but over on my freshly started thread it was suggested that perhaps happiness was still elusive so they thought they would give marriage a go. A useful perspective for me.

My point is that seven years in MLC is  still going strong!!!


Thankfully my life is much calmer these days. Yes I still think about him most days but not with pain and sadness, almost just whimsical thoughts or memories. Occasionally anger and bitterness but hey I’m not a saint. I really like osb’s thought of  the  moon - waxing and waning but ever present, cool and calm. I’ll try to think of that every time I look at the moon.

My daughters seem  mostly settled, studying hard, happy groups of friends, ambitions for future careers and lives. Pragmatic, independent. Some hesitancy to trust in romantic relationships but I think they will get there. Very appreciative of the stability and sensitivity I’ve provided, the three of us share a close bond forged by MLC.

[Beacon]

Ok I'm not completely sure I qualify as an old timer but I figured maybe some of you old timers had some advice. I didn't post this on my thread because no one really reads my thread.

Background BD 5 years ago, W has been out of the family home for 4 years now. I would say we've been reconnecting for 6 months now. AP is apparently no longer an item however she states she stays in contact because she is afraid he will hurt himself.

My question is what is the story with re connection, Ive read its sometimes more difficult than the MLC however I generally feel confused. My W has showed progress for sure since BD and we have started to spend more time together the past 6 months of reconnecting. Doing things together with the kids as a family. We have had great talks about what happened and the affair and she has come clean on a lot of stuff that has happened. We speak daily and when we get together we often hold hands and kiss. These things are all wonderful but I guess I feel stuck.

Like I realize I should be patient but I feel like we should be talking about living together again or even having sex. I'm not sure what is normal at this point. I've read threads on reconnecting and stuff but I still feel like maybe we should be making more progress. I try not to push things or move too quickly because I don't want to end up at square 1 again.

I can't be sure if what I wrote will even make sense but if it does and someone has some insight I would appreciate some feedback. Maybe I'm just being impatient.

[Anjae]

Reconnection is part of MLC. It is said to be harder than Escape & Avoid of which Replay is part of.

6 months of reconnection is not much. When RCR's husband was out of Replay she told him they had to live 1 year apart without him getting back together with OW.

I would say take it slowly and one day at a time. It may be too soon for talking about living together again and have sex. Maybe let her show interest in live together again and in having sex. Having sex is not the priority in reconnection.

[Thunder]

Beacon, I always loved your posts.

I would say after 4 years yes, you are possibly being a bit impatient.
Not that I blame you but I the think she is processing things slowly.  Testing to see if it could be good again.  She needs to trust herself again so she doesn't hurt you again.
It may be more about her than you.

I think taking things very slowly is a good thing.  You both want to be in a good, healthy spot before you go back living together again.
Just my opinion.

I wish you both luck.  Don't rush things, just enjoy each other for now.  It sounds very positive.

[Beacon]

Thank you for your responses. I figured I may just being impatient. I would absolutely say things are getting much better. I'll try to keep it together and just focus on the present
I wish I had it in me to post more in my thread but after awhile I felt like I was talking to myself.

Thunder I do thank you for your continued support. You are a wonderful human being for all you do for all of us on here.

[Treasur]

I think you should revive your old thread, Beacon.
Or maybe start a new one with Reconnecting in the title? Why?
Reconnecting is difficult and people who have been there might be able to support you.
And others might be able to learn from you, like Acorn's posts for example which people find so useful.

[Anjae]

Beacon, I think you can pick up on your old thread and post what you've posted here. A mod can change the icon for light purple. Like Treasur said, it is important for people to know that there are reconnections going on.

[Not Applicable]

Anjae has a point. A light purple thread would get a lot of eyes on it I am sure.

[Songanddance]

Beacon - contact OP or RCR and ask if you can go light purple.

Reconnection is very tough - I've been in it for 18 months+ now and am wondering if it is really worth the effort because H has still made no commitment to the marriage but wants to get on well with me.


If you go onto your profile and click on my posts you should be able to find your old thread or ask OP if you can start a new one and he will merge the old with the new.

[Treasur]

Beacon, also don,t think you have to do the colour change if you think it might make you feel under pressure or that it is too early 
As those who know say, reconnecting is hard and takes time and still has an uncertain outcome as song says. And I guess you don't need to feel more pressure 

[Anjae]

Six months of reconnection used to be the rule to change a thread icon to light purple.

It brings no pressure. It can be changed back to white. RCR always said that if HS and pink icons existed hers would keep changing, light purple. white, light purple, and so on, because her husband come and went.

When I was a tech mode I changed many icons to light purple, a couple from light purple back to white, and some from light purple to dark purple. Dark purple can be changed  back to light purple or even to white.

[Milly]

Beacon, I would love to follow your reconnecting thread. I have no experience in reconnection, but from what I've read, I would say be patient. Let her do the advancing. Remember the scared squirrel image. I'm sure it's very hard as you're dying to feel her fully yours again, but she's probably terrified of destroying you again.
Best of luck.

[Beacon]

I would like to post about my reconnecting because I do think its important even though its frustrating. I think others could benefit from the topic.

Sometimes after spending time with her I get mixed emotions about if it's worth it or not. I do love her very much and I know that she loves me but I just get a wave of feelings. I guess it boils down to trusting her and I'm not sure im there yet. She told me she is done with AP and her actions often depict that she is but sometimes I dont trust it.

[Slow Fade]

Beacon it just takes time. I still can be triggered very easily as can my S15. And all of this started over 6 years ago, BD being April of 2012. We've been back together since 2014, but even after 4 years its still hard. One day at a time.

Wow, I can't believe we've been reconciling for 4 years. Feels like yesterday......

[osb]

It's been months, but suddenly HS popped into my mind and I wanted to catch up, so I dug up this thread. Lovely to revisit the stories of folks of my vintage and beyond!

If I were still writing in my thread, it would be dark purple now I think. There's a certainty in my mind that didn't used to be there (and thus perhaps, my months away from the forum). H has mostly gotten his head back together. Though he has kept an old article on mid-life crisis he clipped some years ago; I found it when tidying his heap of papers on the coffee table, smiled and let it be.

We had a reasonably good Christmas, despite some family drama. H's very difficult parents are getting older, sicker, and hence more difficult and ornery (and just as bigoted as ever ). Other day H's mom phoned; I picked up and said hello, she asked for H, I said 'I'll get him; Merry Christmas to you', she said 'ask him to call me' and hung up click. I was laughing because there's no other way to react; even H just looked sheepish. I have learned to stay the hell away from them, and my H has learned to not be led by the nose every time they yank his chain; but he's still being a good and compassionate son, and I applaud that. H is getting older, a bit paunchy (which he is sooo self-conscious of ) and not the lean mean mountain-climbing-machine of his MLC days; but aging is natural and healthy, and we still go rock climbing together looking like the gentle old coots we are. My sister has even started smiling at my H again, we had a couple of genuine family gatherings and they chatted casually like she hasn't actually hated his guts for the past six years... I guess eventually everyone has to lay down arms and just learn to live with each other again.

Even the things that used to trigger me are not so visceral; I may wake early and lie in bed dreading nameless thoughts, but then I quiet my mind and go back to sleep. By morning, everything seems bearable again. I don't think it's unnecessary mental drama, trauma healing evidently takes time even when the wounds no longer show on the outside.

There was some discussion on this thread some time back about the relative depth of various crises, and the recurrent question of "how bad we've had it". I've been on the fence about this; I know my H's MLC could have been much worse for me, but when I was living through it I couldn't imagine how. Only once the fallout was contained, did I get perspective. There's an old country saying that "the arrow that came for your head left with your hat". Do you feel unlucky to have been shot at, or lucky to only lose your hat?

You are all so precious, my virtual friends. Wishing wonderful things for the new year.

[Acorn]

Thank you for visiting and sharing your update, osb.  I certainly don’t belong to the ‘oldies’ club but I visit the thread to learn. 

It’s good to read that life does settle and there is healing to be had. 
I need to revisit your thread since I cannot recall when your H’s MLC drama started.  You mentioned 6 years while talking about your sister’s reception of your H.  Does the number reflect the length of time from BD or whatever that indicated that his sane mind went AWOL? 

If I were still writing in my thread, it would be dark purple now I think. There's a certainty in my mind that didn't used to be there (and thus perhaps, my months away from the forum). H has mostly gotten his head back together.

I see 2 components here.  Dark purple state of your mind and your H’s healing.  So obvious. 
It’s not beyond my silliness to give much heavier percentage to MLCer’s healing to indicate the health of M.  You woke me up, osb. 

[xyzcf]

Thanks osb for the update! So often people moan that there are very few reconciliations and I have often pointed out that those who are reconnecting are not usually spending their time on HS.

It is very encouraging to hear good news of marriages restored!

[Anjae]

Hi osb.

Nice to read you and thank you for the update.

Well, those of us whose MLCer is still in crisis for nearly or over a decade look at shorter crisis as easier and milder. Same for those of us with MLCers who are constantly in a rage.

I would prefer no arrow and to keep my hat.

However, now, this whole MLC is just something I know existed and changed my life forever. I don't feel it. One of my sister's gave mum Mr J's dad latest book for Christmas. Mum likes Mr J's dad books. It didn't bother me at all. It was like Mr J's dad is merely a sentence, not something I feel.

I love reconciliations stories, but wonder why do we want to have a marriage with these people. They were vile, horrible, abusive for years on end. It was MLC, but it does not change what they were and did.

it is quite confusing to me, why we, myself included, thing these people are worthy. Or thought.

[Mitzpah]

osb,

I am overjoyed with your news!

I love your sensible, down to earth, sensitive writing! Like Xyzcf, I love it when old/long timers post their stories of reconciliation.

Your IL's are quite a package Love it that your sister is coming to terms with his changes.

xxx

[Milly]

osb, thank you so much for coming back to update us. I'm very happy for you!

[osb]

I would prefer no arrow and to keep my hat.

Of course!   That would be the ideal; but i have no time machine. I am stuck hatless, and happy I have my head.

You mentioned 6 years while talking about your sister’s reception of your H.  Does the number reflect the length of time from BD or whatever that indicated that his sane mind went AWOL? 

Coming up to 7 years since BD, preceded by a few years of inexplicable anger. Think he went off the deep end a decade ago. Returned half-baked in 2014, and we've been in the "light purple" phase since 2016. I think. All this only apparent to me in the rear view mirror, so my sense of timing may be off.

I love reconciliations stories, but wonder why do we want to have a marriage with these people. They were vile, horrible, abusive for years on end. It was MLC, but it does not change what they were and did. it is quite confusing to me, why we, myself included, thing these people are worthy. Or thought.

True. Undoubtedly true.
If you are asking me, do I need my H back? I would answer no, I'm as happy alone. If you're asking why do I think he's worthy of reconciliation, I'd say we have a detente...  Reconciliation doesn't erase the past, which was indeed horrible (though briefer than many others' stories). But this man as he is right now, is he worthy of me? Perhaps. Am I worthy of him? Also perhaps. I don't know how to answer that question. Did I settle for something / someone lesser than? Examining my own motivations as best as I can, I don't think I settled. Certainly to walk away would have been easier for me (like Aesop's fox who walked away from the grapes he couldn't reach, deciding they must be sour). I still challenge my H daily, to prove to me that he hasn't settled - that he has actively chosen this life, with me in it. For the longest time he was more diffident than me, like so many post-MLC men who don't know whether they want to be loved or left alone. Now sometimes I'm more diffident than him. But it is an active choice made every day. I can't promise you it will be my choice tomorrow. But for now, the man H is right now worth my making an effort to set aside memories of pain. That's as honest as I can be, and still as confused.

[Anjae]

Thank you for your reply, osb.

I was asking why a reconciliation is worthy. I know you don't need him. We all get to a point when we no longer need the MLCer.

I don't see reconciliation as settling. I know MLCers get back to normal. I did, my cousin did, real life MLCers who are out of crisis did. My counsin and I didn't broke a marriage or had an alienator. That is something none of us have to live with.

My cousin's crisis was different than mine. I don't think anyone noticed mine, since it come with BD. What I see as my crisis and its behaviours, everyone else saw as a consequence of what had happened.

I understand why my cousin and his wife reconcilled. His crisis was an obvious depression and the damages he caused were very limited and mostly to himself - like trying to kill himself because of wrong medication.

A person like Mr J? That is another matter. I have no idea how out of crisis Mr J is going to be. But he will remain the man who did all he has done. And all he has done is problematic, wrong and against my values. Not that I am thinking about reconciliation. Even if I wanted it, it would be impossible since he remains in MLC land.

In latter years Mr J hasn't done any horrible thing. In fact, it has been more than 4 years since he done anything really awful. But he also hasn't changed nor done a thing to try to make amends. Amends to not equal reconnection or reconciliation to me.

It could be said things improved because there hasn't been any new nasty, aside from a bit of monster on one e-mail and on one phone call. Very mild by his standards. Strange, how he does not seem to move on his crisis. Or better, I think he moves. A strange moving that is slow and looks identical, but it isn't exactly identical.

Despite his calming down = years without atrocious things, current Mr J is still not worthy. Or interesting. Or someone I would like to spend time with. Still clubbing, still djing. Still not sleeping. Still having his left eye almost closed.

He tried a little to come close, by e-mail and used the exchange things excuse to try to see me. No luck, I told him he is not safe and his moods swing too much. And I did saw him briefly yearly this year on a social setting by chance. I said I, he gave a step back, totally scared, and said nothing. I went back to my friends and keep talking with them. When he left he put his hand on my left shoulder and said "so goodnight".

Did I felt anything? No. He was just someone I knew I knew, but that was all. He didn't raise any interest in me. Very strange, if you ask me. I used to really love him and to find him very attractive. Well, the MLC does not look attractive in any way.

How does one goes from someone being the love of our life to being someone we are indifferent to even when we see them in the flesh? I don't know. 

[xyzcf]

How does one goes from someone being the love of our life to being someone we are indifferent to even when we see them in the flesh? I don't know.

I do not feel this way. When I see him, which is rarely, when we are together, even now, even after he divorced me....I still feel a great deal of love for him.

In a therapy session recently, my therapist noticed that there were 2 times in the hour when my face showed joy...both had to do with something he had done recently.

I have not erased any of the magic of those 35 years and I continue to see him as being "infected" by something that he had no control over..his continuing connection to me shows me that somewhere inside of him, he still has some pretty intense feelings for me.

[Anjae]

We're all different. I remember when we seated side by side in the court waiting room, October 2014, it felt quiet and homely. We didn't exchange a word. Mr J took out a book and start reading, I did the same.

But I felt nothing when I arrived. I didn't even recognised him. Can't say I felt much that day. And what I felt was short lived. As soon as Mr J opened his mouse to address the judge the homely feeling was gone. His arrogant, disdaining tone of voice was not the person I knew. Minutes before, when our lawyers returned, the four of us made small talk. His voice was normal. All of a sudden, it changed.

Like when I say him in January, he seemed scared of me. No idea why. It kind of his above my pay grade and I don't have much, if any, interest in figure out why he is scared of him. I am not the one who cheated, was physically and financially abusive, etc.

I have neither joy or sadness when it comes to something Mr J may do - I am talking about non nasty things. Just indifference.

Hardly remember the magic of the 20 years we spend together. It was too long ago. I have no idea if Mr J has pretty intense feelings for me inside him. I don't have them for him. Can't say I still see/feel Mr J is "infected" with something. He just seems to have remained in that life. After all, it pays well, allows for a fancy flat in the capital, he inherit family money, etc. The only reason I can see for him to change his lifestyle is becoming bored with it. Or a very serious health issue.

Regardless of what we feel, or don't feel, for the MLCer, why do you find this horrible people worthy? There is no denying they are horrible while in MLC and that they do horrendous things. Why do we give them a pass and would like a marriage (those of us who still would) with these people? Certainly there are far better people out there for those who want a new partner and those who do not why not remain alone?

For me the other things is that Mr J was 36 when he left. I was 37. I am now 50. He is stuck in a 36. A childish 36. He never had to deal with hardships in his life and I had to deal with even more because of the consequences of his crisis. We have very different life experiences. His tastes also no longer really match mine.

An old friend - who was with me when I saw Mr J in January - says people often think they no longer have anything in common, but they do. We both like music. But now different types. Art, but, again, now, totally different genres. I am not into trends and being a hipster, Mr J is. His life experience of comfort and getting away with murder is the opposite of mine.

I find him very boring and very uninteresting. Even his real self is now boring to me.

What would Mr J add to my life? Money aside, nothing that I can think of. He can give me the money, no need of him coming along with it.

[readytofixmyselffirst]

I know that my words are not of little value since I am no longer standing. Been involved in another relationship for starting our fifth year. We just go married a couple of months ago and everything is fine. Our kids get along well and we are planning a family trip to New York this summer.

I think that my stand ended because of the divorce. She asked for it, she tried to state I was abusive and not involved in our children's lives. Once I began to see her as my opponent who was trying to hurt me through lies, I lost all feelings for her.

Since the divorce, I made all my payments to her on time. Never missed one payment. Any thing she needed, I complied promptly. I grieved the loss of my marriage and went through denial, anger, and finally acceptance. Then there were just some things that pushed me over the edge. While I was struggling with finances and paying my oldest daughters tuition, I find that she takes two trips to Vietnam and United Kingdom to be with her OM. While my youngest was visiting, I found out she told my youngest that the only reason why she didn't move to UK to be with OM was because I didn't want my youngest and I forced her to take my youngest to live with her. Finally, I found out that she and OM were seeing each other while we were married. Ugh!

I don't have the feelings that I used to have and with no trust, there is no relationship. However, I am very happy when I hear about reconciliations and I support those that still stand for their marriages.

Just my feelings and I have nothing but the utmost respect for the men and women that are on this site.


((((Hugs))))

Ready

[Anjae]

It is quite interesting how pretty much all male LBS pay alimony and child support to their MLC, but male MLCers often don't pay a cent to their LBS and children. Even if they are court ordered to do so. And several are divorced without a financial settlement.

Money and assets wise female MLCers have it better than many female LBS. It is always the wronged part that sucks out the non-wronged part. Go figure.

Trust is an issue, of course. Even if I know that once out of crisis Mr J will be trustworthy again.

The nasty lies and their legal crazyness aimed at us are a bit too much.

It is often said it is not personal. But I only see the LBS being dragged to court. OK, it could be someone else they were married to. Or not. The someone else may had divorce the MLCer pronto.

Truly love reconnection and reconciliations stories. MLC is not easy and reconnecting and reconciling are even harder than deal with Replay. One more thing that puts me off.

To be fair, I am interested in a new relationship. But it has to be a good, smooth one. No more problems. No more complications.

[megogirl]

I have not erased any of the magic of those 35 years and I continue to see him as being "infected" by something that he had no control over..his continuing connection to me shows me that somewhere inside of him, he still has some pretty intense feelings for me.

Yep.....all of this (except for the '35 years' part)!

The MLC was confirmed to me by a phone call I'd received from Prisoner/Real H.   And that whatever the "infection" was invading his body, I knew I had to see this through.

[terrified_in_TN]

It is quite interesting how pretty much all male LBS pay alimony and child support to their MLC, but male MLCers often don't pay a cent to their LBS and children. ...

Thank you Anjae for recognizing that.  I absolutely agree with this.  Although in my case, I have fared WAY better than most male LBSes.

I pay a very large amount of Child Support for one daughter.  But there is no alimony.  I also bought her out of the marital home.  Make no mistake, she received a large short term settlement immediately after our divorce, but I am so blessed and I know it.  I will come out faaaarrrrrr better in the long term.

Not that I am trying to rush my life away, and I also do not mean to offend any LBSes that are in this boat, but as an unskilled laborer, my ex is not going to fair very well when my youngest d turns 18, and the gravy train stops.

I harbor no ill will, but these are the life choices she has made, and therefore has to live with them.

-T

[Thunder]

OP or does one of the Old Timers want to start a new thread?   

[OldPilot]

 New thread



https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=10581.0