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Author Topic: Discussion Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7


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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#1: July 12, 2018, 05:26:43 AM
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"And when they ask you about me and you find yourself thinking back on all of our memories,
I hope you ache in regret as the truth hits you like a bullet and you find yourself replying: ""She loved me more than anyone else in the entire world and I tried to destroy her."  He failed by the way. 
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8412(Denjef's thread)

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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#2: July 21, 2018, 04:38:32 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/jul/21/midlife-crisis-myth-life-gets-better-after-50 - Midlife crisis? It’s a myth. Why life gets better after 50

If the Guardian says MLC does not exist, than it does not.

Wonder what we are all dealing with... besides, MLC does not stike at 50. Nor do people really become happier after 50. Some do, some don't.

This type of article and view of MLC is one of the reasons why it is so hard to mention the issue outside of HS and be taken seriously.
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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#3: August 12, 2018, 06:49:30 AM
This article talks about anxiety, depression and pessimism and backs up the thoughts on the forum about a chemical balance. According to the article, the chemical is dopamine and just a slight imbalance can throw off a mouse/person.

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/322741.php
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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#4: August 12, 2018, 07:55:26 AM
Regarding the Guardian Article.  I read Jonathan Rauch’s book that article is based on.  The book is good for the 95% of people who just experience a normal mid-life transition.  Unfortunately, he dismisses the crisis sufferers while describing people who are clearly in crisis and spiraling out of control.  He also makes it sound like these people are getting out of bad marriages (while noting that marriage improves happiness) but doesn’t notice that they may not have had bad marriages until their crisis.  Part of his problem is that he doesn’t have the right experience or perspective of having his own crisis after a long happy marriage.  He was newly married when it hit. 

Overall, it’s a good book.  But he missed that there is a difference between crisis and transition.
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BD3 (Nov 2017) H takes a new job 2 hours away and moves out.
BD4 (September 2018) OW2 discovered despite claims there has never been one.  She outs MOW1 and discloses that H filed for Divorce, but has not served me.  OW2 dumps him.

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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#5: August 13, 2018, 10:00:55 AM
But he missed that there is a difference between crisis and transition.

Like pretty much everyone out there who thinks they are talking about MLC, when, in fact, they are talking about midlife transition.

FTT, the article is interesting, but I don't thing it is a given dopamine and the caudate nucleus are the real and absolute causes of depression, anxiety and pessimism.

 "The researchers suspect that stimulating this brain area causes a disruption in dopamine, the so-called sex, drugs, and rock 'n' roll hormone.

"There must be many circuits involved," concludes Prof. Graybiel. "But apparently we are so delicately balanced that just throwing the system off a little bit can rapidly change behavior.""

They suspect, they don't know. Still, most people get SSRI's, that target Serotonine, for depression. And I can tell you that meds that target domapine don't also don't work for all the depressed people they are given to.

Depression may even be electical. Or a mix of electrical and chemical. And it most likely have a number of different causes/roots/place target and medium. I don't think all depressions have the same causes. Thinking so - aside from those that are clearly found as being something else, like caused by thyroid issues - is what I think as made things so compliated. And so frustrating when it comes to results.
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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#6: August 13, 2018, 01:01:09 PM
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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#7: August 26, 2018, 11:52:23 AM
This was in The Washington Post yesterday. I read it and immediately thought MLC. The columnist's advice is pretty in line with what we talk about here.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/carolyn-hax-moms-permanent-vacation-leaves-a-big-onus-for-dad/2018/08/24/8411b8fa-a4a0-11e8-a656-943eefab5daf_story.html?utm_term=.9a83b2bb131a
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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#8: August 27, 2018, 07:31:50 AM
I didn't think MLC here, only because the opening paragraph says she's had mental health issues for years.  Lots of similarities though.
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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#9: August 27, 2018, 08:11:55 AM
smells like Depression with a big D
which imho is the fuel of MLC
what makes it MLC is if there is also a weak/changing sense of self...ergo the replay fixes
it's like really angry depression
i guess time will tell if this w is in MLC or not but we all know how this poor h must be reeling in shock while trying to figure out what to do to keep the family ship afloat
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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#10: August 27, 2018, 05:18:21 PM
I love the Crisis Home and Garden line!!!😂 I don’t tell people much other than my xH got a wild hair and suddenly left. Over and over again I hear my dad did that to my mom. I can’t understand why this crisis hasn’t become a topic for a movement or boom with some true impact. This is a real thing!!! With big consequences! Is it really too disbelievable to be taken seriously? Jennifer Garner should write a book and make into a movie!
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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#11: August 31, 2018, 12:27:28 AM
This article appeared on my news feed.

The woman reported her husband missing to Police when he didn't return from visiting a friend and  was found to have married another woman in another country. The Police investigated, only to find the husband's wedding photos to his new Mrs online!!

He is believed to have met the woman on FaceBook.

He and his wife had been together 27 years and were childhood sweethearts.

Hers' the article:

https://www.whimn.com.au/talk/news/woman-reports-husband-missing-only-to-discover-hes-married-someone-else/news-story/2efcb1de7292ddfc8dce33456e6428b5
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"And when they ask you about me and you find yourself thinking back on all of our memories,
I hope you ache in regret as the truth hits you like a bullet and you find yourself replying: ""She loved me more than anyone else in the entire world and I tried to destroy her."  He failed by the way. 
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8412(Denjef's thread)

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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#12: September 05, 2018, 03:12:29 PM
I am not sure where I want to capture these thoughts...the "old timer's thread" or here.

I wrote something on Anjae's thread which seems to be true in my situation and seems to have resonated with other LBSers. It was this observation:

Quote
instead of the length of the crisis making things better I now believe that in some cases, the pathology continues and they lose even more of who they once were...

I have always believed that the root cause of their crisis resides in infancy and childhood and then all the other factors that impact the MLCer. Today I attended a lecture about Complex PTSD "Children's experiences of multiple traumatic events that occur within the caregiving system- the social environment that is supposed to be the source of support and safety in a child's life" there were a couple of "a ha" moments for me;

"If we could somehow end child abuse and neglect, the eight hundred pages of DSM would shrink to a pamphlet in two generations" John Briere,Professor of Psychiatry and the Behavioral Sciences, Keck School of Medicine
University of Southern California

The other "a ha" moment was the mention of the research of Complex PTSD and the connection to obesity and diabetes. Both of which are health issues in my MLCer's case.

I found the following which I have not read in detail yet but may be of interest to others:

Stress- and PTSD-associated obesity and metabolic dysfunction
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4459590/

Complex post-traumatic stress disorder
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/complex-post-traumatic-stress-disorder

I will write more of my thoughts on the Old Timer's thread since this thread is used specifically for alerted people to articles of interest. For discussion head to:

https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=10298.0
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« Last Edit: September 05, 2018, 03:16:00 PM by xyzcf »
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#13: September 11, 2018, 01:24:56 PM
https://www.nbcnews.com/better/video/how-grief-affects-your-brain-and-what-to-do-about-it-1255640131592?v=raila&

Although this video is specific for the grief that occurs when a partner dies, it also explains quite simply the various parts of the brain as a person responds to the grief od the loss of a loved one
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"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#14: September 22, 2018, 01:02:31 PM
On HS we have often said that what happened to us is worse than death. Here is an article that talks about that as well as the effect on our children. It is written from a Catholic perspective but in reality the truth is the same about the issue of how much this damages the person who is left behind

http://www.ncregister.com/blog/schroeder/rejection-is-worse-than-death
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"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#15: September 23, 2018, 07:35:58 AM
Good article, xyzcf.  So very true.

I think the other thing is, when your spouse dies you can get closure.
If they reject you, for someone else, you don't get that kind of closure.
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A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#16: September 23, 2018, 07:45:34 AM
Yes Thunder!!!

Someone here said, "It's like having a missing child/sibling/etc., instead of a murdered one." (my apologies for the non-direct quote).

I thought that was the most PERFECT of analogies.....

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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#17: September 26, 2018, 05:01:42 AM
Very interesting articles xyz and I love the discussions here too!

Thanks for sharing!

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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#18: September 26, 2018, 07:48:36 AM
Excellent article and it portrays exactly how I have felt. It also touches on the effect I have observed in my children.

My father often said that divorce was worse than death... I feel this very keenly having lost people to death recently AND having had to face the near death of a child twice.

My comfort is that God never rejects me.
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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#19: September 26, 2018, 09:08:18 AM
Very touching article, very compassionate
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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#20: September 26, 2018, 09:56:52 PM
This is not an article about MLC but it talks about how memories of traumatic events are stored differently than normal memories and I think that it is possible, that a traumatic event in the childhood of the MLCer may be relived in some way many many years later in life, perhaps being suppressed for that long.

I certainly understand that the memories for the LBSer of BD, finding out about the affair and the other painful things that occur are stored in our brain as trauma...and that is what makes it so hard for us to shake free of the emotions that are attached to the memories.

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/christine-blasey-ford-s-memories-brett-kavanaugh-are-30-years-ncna913511
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"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#21: September 27, 2018, 02:48:52 AM
The LBS trauma comes from a specific event: BD. People go in MLC, but, for many, there does not seem to be a specific event/reason. Something from the past alone would not lead to MLC.

When their crisis ends MLCers also don't seem to have a clue about what lead to the crisis. Or most of them don't.

That woman remebers events. Or part of those events. As said in the article, memory does not store everything.

It is more than the trauma being stored in the brain, it is also stored in the body and genes. However, keep dwelling in those memories does not help brain or body since it provokes more trauma and damages.

"One focus of my work is understanding how the timing of stress influences long-term memory. In studies over the past decade, I have observed that stress enhances memory for information that is presented around the time of the stress, while impairing memory for information that is presented long before or after the stress."

For LBS, BD. For the MLCer who knows. Real life MLCers I know don't recall any special issue from the past/childhood that could had been the cause of their crisis. They also don't call it MLC, they tend to call it their depression/when they were not well. For me MLC come with a lot of stress and BD, that was another stressor. I don't recall anything from my childhood or adolescence to have anything to do with it.

The problem for LBS is that we keep re-living/are always thinking about it which does not help our brain, body or genes. And, in many cases, we are also constantly being reminded of what happened because the MLCer now is monster and/or lives with OW/OM, has left us with financial problems, etc. or because the MLCer keeps doing more and more things that affect us. Like court/divorce, like solving those, or divorcing in nasty ways or having a child with OW/OM and so on.

MLC keep affecting us long after BD.

To our brain body and genes it may make more sense for us to quicky divorce and distance from the MLCer, removing ourselves from the situation as fast as possible and keep the MLCer away. The stress MLC causes us is very damaging and has long lasting consequences of all sorts. Especially if we remain married/close to the MLCer.
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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#22: September 27, 2018, 03:46:35 AM
Good article, xyzcf.  So very true.

I think the other thing is, when your spouse dies you can get closure.
If they reject you, for someone else, you don't get that kind of closure.

I agree. The fact that I didn't had a chance at closure is killing. And not knowing if it will ever happen doesn't help. It really is like a missing child.

To our brain body and genes it may make more sense for us to quicky divorce and distance from the MLCer, removing ourselves from the situation as fast as possible and keep the MLCer away. The stress MLC causes us is very damaging and has long lasting consequences of all sorts. Especially if we remain married/close to the MLCer.

Also very true. They just keep adding fuel to the drama and the trauma has no time to heal. Not that they even understand that they gave us a trauma. When my W told me I should start dating again I told her I don't want to and I am not even close to being ready for it, that I have huge trust issues atm and don't know if I can trust anybody that soon again. She just said: "So that's my fault?" They just don't understand. Again no closure whatsoever.
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15Y Marriage

08-2016/12-2016 OM1 EA with 21y old client (he turns her down)
10-2016 MiniBD - Wants to leave but changes her mind. I just saw it like she being angry and calming down again
08-2017 BD1 - ILYBINILWY speech, OM2 which she knew for 1 week and had seen for just 1 hour
11-2017 - Moved back in
05-2018 BD2 - Seeing OM2 again.
06-2018 - I leave the house
08-2018 - OM2 out of the picture
08-2018/11-2018 - Goes on 8 Tinder dates sleeps with one. (OM3)
12-2018 - Wants to reconnect.
xmas 2018 - BD3 says she can't do it and confesses to OM4
05-2019 - D filed
06-2019 - D Final

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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#23: September 27, 2018, 11:37:28 AM
They just don't understand.

No, they don't understand and they don't have a clue about what they did to us and themselves. If they did, they would not be having a MLC.

As for closure, they don't give it to us, but we can decide to end things with them for good and move on with our lives. Be it on our own or with someone else.
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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#24: September 27, 2018, 01:17:03 PM
And if they sometimes understand, right now they don't care. Because if they did, they would have to take responsibility for it. Much easier to blame or deny or avoid.
Put simply, an MLC spouse is content for anyone else to pay any price for them to feel better
It's not right...but it is often how they behave
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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#25: September 27, 2018, 01:38:56 PM
And if they sometimes understand, right now they don't care.

Not certain they understand the trauma they are causing. They often know what they are doing, like he affair is wrong, but that does not mean they understand. They don't even seem to know the real reason they are having an affair.

Put simply, an MLC spouse is content for anyone else to pay any price for them to feel better

Again, not certain. Are they even content? The irony is that they do not fell better. They will just fell worst and worst. And they will tend to carry on with MLC live and throwing things at the LBS. In vain hope it may make their problems and how they feel go away.

They don't understand that stot, be on their own, look for help (I am not talking about the LBS, professional help) would have far better results.
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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#26: September 28, 2018, 10:47:03 AM
Treasur posted this link about PTSD after divorce. I wanted to make sure it was listed here as well

https://lessonsfromtheendofamarriage.com/2018/09/26/ptsd-after-divorce-2/
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"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#27: September 28, 2018, 12:52:33 PM
From the article about PTSD and divorce:

"My body quaked from the aftershocks of the sudden trauma" and "he 21-word incoming message read: “I am sorry to be such a coward leaving you this way but I am leaving you and leaving the state.”

I think PTSD comes if a divorce is sudden, not with an amicable divorce decided by both partners. The artcile clearly talks about something that was a surprise to the wife.

We are always saying divorce causes PTSD, I think it would be more accurate to say that some divorces, especially sudden ones like MLC ones, cause PTSD.

Also from the article: "The trauma is stored in the body as well as the mind." This is very important, the body all stores trauma.

In fact, and that has been happening to be for a while, the mind no longer feels the trauma, but the body still reacts poorly to some things.

The reason I don't want contact with Mr J it that my body does not react well. My mind can go back to BD and all the many nasty things Mr J has done since, nothing happens.  Contact with him, even e-mail, my body has different reactons, none of them good.

However, my body had no reaction when I saw him briefly in January. Maybe because it was social setting and I was not on my own.
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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#28: September 29, 2018, 05:28:32 AM
Very interesting Anjae and I’m sorry that you deal with this. I find it happens to me also and may not ever completely heal. 
I guess I’ve just accepted it now.

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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#29: September 29, 2018, 07:33:28 AM
31.

I agree with you.  I don't think it ever goes away.
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A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#30: September 29, 2018, 03:07:26 PM
Thank you 31. In my case, there may be more added stess, mostly of the normal kind, because of so many years dealing with grandmother.

It may never go away, but mine is much better. I also don't take as much to recover. But certain things, like someone being harsher, that I didn't use to have a problem with, now make my body react.

Of course it is the body remembering Monster.
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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#31: September 30, 2018, 08:30:08 PM
There has been some discussion recently on this thread and on other threads about PTSD. I've been following them because I'm being treated for PTSD related to BD and also for complex PTSD related to childhood trauma.

The therapist I'm seeing specializes in treating trauma and dissociative disorders and she teaches courses in trauma therapy at a large area university. She also teaches Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction (MBSR). She has told me several times that MBSR is helpful for people with my issues; PTSD, complex PTSD, abandonment issues, attachment disorder, anxiety, and depression. I've considered attending one of her MBSR courses but it takes me 90 minutes just to drive from my home to her office. It's hard to make the trip every other week so I don't think I could manage to attend one of her twice a week MBSR courses.

I enjoy taking online video courses through the Udemy website. You have to pay for most of the courses, and I've paid for my share of them, but they do have some free courses that are very good. I just started a free course through Udemy called Learn Mindfulness Meditation for a Calmer and Clearer Mind.

I just started the course so I can't tell you too much about it, but it seems pretty good so far. Udemy reports 19,941 enrolled students and 251 reviews with an average rating of 4.5 out of 5. The course includes 3 hours of video lessons and 7 hours of guided audio meditations. The course is based on the standard 8 week MBSR course that my therapist teaches but also includes some supplementary material. In addition to watching the weekly videos and doing the twice daily audio meditations the instructor recommends keeping a daily journal. The course also has a website for additional information and a FB page for course related discussions.

In one of the first videos the course instructor states that he had lived a typical, happy life until about 7 years ago when his marriage fell apart, he lost his job, and he had a "spectacular midlife crisis". Can you imagine the look on my face when I watched this? He said that he eventually attended an 8 week MBSR course and it saved his life and turned him around. He became an MBSR instructor and created this course so that he can freely share with the world this program that helped him so much.

Once again, this is a free course, so I thought I would post about it here in case anyone is interested in it. If there is enough interest, maybe a group of LBSes might like to take the course together and maybe share about it and support each other on this forum.

The course can be found at

https://www.udemy.com/mindfulness-stress-reduction/
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#32: October 01, 2018, 03:19:01 PM
Thanks for the link, Brain. I enrolled, but the lectures made me sleepy. I will use the PDFs.
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#33: October 03, 2018, 07:29:02 PM
I am going to enroll ..thanks for the information . I will try anything  ( I too have PTSD , attachment disorder , anxiety et). Thanks for the info!
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#34: October 03, 2018, 08:22:31 PM
Barbie, I hope it helps you. My trauma therapist is pretty positive about MBSR.
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#35: October 07, 2018, 06:12:03 AM
I really don't think even now that my h was a narcissist as it is described here, but I do think with MLC, they all become jaw-droppingly narcisstic....some of the communication examples shown her look pretty familiar http://www.thriveafterabuse.com/word-salad-narc-speak/...and the author echoes what we all say about detachment and minimal contact.
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#36: October 12, 2018, 05:14:55 AM
thanks brain!

I've done some udemy courses before and have found they help!

(hugs)
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#37: October 14, 2018, 06:02:03 AM
Hello,
I wanted to share this with you because in a strange way it helped me understand a bit of themlcer, in a vey simple way. Sorry i don't know how to paste but if someone could i would appreciate it.  its a song by Gordon lightfoot. "if you could read my mind love" .I was cleaning , listening to the radio. this song came on and it captured me. to me it sounds as though this guy really wants to be with his love but just can't find the feelings he once had and just is very confused as to Why?  total mlc song
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#38: October 14, 2018, 06:07:40 AM
he sounds so broken hearted that this happened to him
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#39: October 14, 2018, 06:22:34 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QgqkY4YJQ8

Here you go, KB. 

Good lyrics, but sad.
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#40: October 20, 2018, 10:52:16 AM
Why Narcissistic Parents Treat Their Children Like Babies

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/fulfillment-any-age/201810/why-narcissistic-parents-treat-their-children-babies

Good article whether it's shedding light on a foo issue for your spouse, yourself, or your kids and their dynamic with the walkaway parent.
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#41: October 26, 2018, 02:01:57 PM
Quote
We’ve all known someone who has fallen in love and we wonder, “What does she see in him?”  Or, “Is he blind?”  The person in love, often craving the drug-like feelings associated with infatuation, may want to avoid any inconvenient personality traits in the loved one that might deflate the feelings of love.  So the awareness of faults and flaws is split off; it often  winds up in (is projected into) friends or family members, who then have to carry all the doubts.  The infatuated person may then avoid or even turn against those people so he or she won’t have to confront the split-off perceptions.

http://www.afterpsychotherapy.com/splitting/

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#42: October 26, 2018, 03:33:16 PM
Very interesting article, Brain. Sounds very familiar.
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#43: November 15, 2018, 12:53:03 AM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m00013rk

This is from BBC radio 4s series ALL in the mind which focusses on mental health.  This episode also looks at Borderline Personality Disorder now known as  Emotionally Unstable Personality Disorder.

It's interesting but like all 30 min programmes doesn't go into enough depth. Some interesting statistics and facts though as well as personal experiences.
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#44: November 15, 2018, 01:35:45 AM
Did you all see the movie "Its complicated" ?  quite a comedy about mlc. It is not stated as mlc movie but if any lbs watches it , we all know what it is really about. 
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#45: November 15, 2018, 02:40:16 AM
Good link from the BBC, s&ad
Useful reminder that personality disorders are big and obvious...they infuse someone's life as the guy says, as opposed to the shock feeling of an alien that most of us get with this experience.
Plus a reminder to feel a little compassion for that broken inner child...but from a safe healthy distance lol
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#46: November 15, 2018, 02:47:33 AM
I've seen Its complicated. Laughed a lot with it.

Personalities disorders are not like MLC. MCL is sudden, personalities disorders not so much.

Around here Borderline is still called Borderline (in English, we don't use a Portuguese word for it).
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#47: November 15, 2018, 06:30:30 AM
Quote
Personalities disorders are not like MLC. MCL is sudden, personalities disorders not so much

I agree but there are interesting comments in the clip that might help LBSers understand the FOO issues or at least some of  the OPs.

I was not suggesting that MLCers have personality disorders - just a useful piece of info for this depression jigsaw we all have to deal with.
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#48: November 28, 2018, 07:43:49 AM
I haven't read it but I hear the new Bruce Springsteen interview in Esquire is very interesting.  He talks about how if you don't exercise the demons of your childhood, it can really mess you up in adulthood.  He apparently really opens up in the interview and has had at least one breakdown.
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#49: November 28, 2018, 05:05:29 PM
Bruce Springsteen's breakdown/depression is well known. He talked about it in the past as well as in his book.

He tends to give good interviews.

Spanish footballer Iniesta also start talking about his depression: https://verne.elpais.com/verne/2018/11/26/articulo/1543216780_150411.html

It is in Spanish, but Google translator can do wonders.  ;) :)
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#50: November 30, 2018, 12:50:52 AM
Good article on gaslighting here, worth a read https://lessonsfromtheendofamarriage.com/2018/11/26/what-makes-people-susceptible-to-gaslighting/

Not about why people do it, but about what makes us easier to gaslight perhaps. And different weak spots for different folks. For me, yup, a trusting nature bc I had never experienced anything like it before and being naturally given to seeing two sides of a story. Both are strengths too, but also why it took me so damn long to trust my own sense of 'no, this is not ok and not normal'. And for me, placing too much weight on words bc words matter to me and I rarely say things without thinking of the effect or without intending to keep my word. So again, it took me a while to realise that other people's words did not carry the same significance as mine did.

My conclusions, just for me as part of my own mirror work?  And because I don't want to throw my own babies out with the bathwater of my xh lol.

Trust my gut when it shouts loudly. Without needing to justify it to myself or anyone else.
Actions carry more weight than words.

Only took me 55 years  ::) ;D
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#51: November 30, 2018, 01:11:53 AM
Good article. I see myself completely in the description of who is more vulnerable to being gaslighted. The risk is to become colder and distrusting. I think the trusting our gut sensations might just be the answer.
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#52: November 30, 2018, 01:19:48 AM
I never believed what was going on was normal and never believed what Mr J said when his replay started.

I knew there was an affair even before he left. He denied, of course, but I didn't believe him.

During his ongoing endeless crisis I didn't fall for his stuff.

There is nothing wrong with being open minded, trusting or kind-harded. MLCers lose those and we don't like them one bit.

The husband in the article does not resemble real Mr J nor do I resemble the woman (be it now or before).

For me, it is very simple, Mr J's personality changed.
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#53: November 30, 2018, 01:44:22 AM
May not 'fit' for you and others' Anjae.
Depends on our individual experiences, I guess, but for some of us the gaslighting was a huge WTF bit of our own 'fog'
And as Milly says, most LBS who recognise that want to learn from it without losing the ability to trust, have empathy or feel as if they have to be unremittingly on guard against an unfriendly world. So, it's about finding the balancing point that works for us individually after we realise that we were gaslighted by someone for their own self-obsessed agenda.

And I've found the site overall pretty useful for dealing with the challenges of a vanishing spouse bc it focuses mostly on recovering and rebuilding whilst not denying the maelstrom of emotions and just how very weird an experience it is after so many years of something quite different.
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« Last Edit: November 30, 2018, 01:47:53 AM by Treasur »
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.


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#54: November 30, 2018, 02:30:13 AM
I am not saying Mr J didn't gaslight. He did - pretty much all MLCers do. Just that there is a difference between someone in MLC gaslighting and someone who always did.

That is, if a LBS always had a spouse who gaslighted for the whole relationship, the behaviour is not new.

Since gaslighting was a new, MLC behaviour for Mr J, and quite an obvious new, strange behaviour, I never believed a word he said. He did trie the "you are imagining things", "you're crazy~", etc. My reply always was, "No, I am not. You're lying and there is someone else". He would protest further, I keep not believing him.

What confuses me is LBS who seem to think their spouse was always like the MLC, that gaslighting was always there, etc. If that was the case, what is so surprising in the MLC behaviour?

I only notice a change in behaviour if there is one, not if it something that was always there.

It is far easier to recover and rebuild with a vanisher than with a clinger. A clinger never goes away and never allows us space to rebuild and repair. I know, Mr J has been both. When he was a super clinger it was impossible to recover or rebuilt. He was always in contac. There was no space to breath and his craziness was always present. His vanishing self is a blessing. At least to me, that experienced the opposite, it is.
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#55: November 30, 2018, 03:29:38 AM
I am not saying Mr J didn't gaslight. He did - pretty much all MLCers do. Just that there is a difference between someone in MLC gaslighting and someone who always did.
Fair point. Same for me, it came with his 'crisis'/depression, not before which was partly why it was so difficult to adjust to. He used his mental health diagnosis as a kind of cover really and I wanted to believe that he wasn't as horrific and cruel as he seemed to be, that some bit of my old h still existed and would reappear. So less that I believed all of the lies, although I believed some, more that I couldn't wrap my head round the scale and depth of it.  Once I actually accepted that he lied about almost everything, including stupid things, it just became pointless to try to communicate with him at all.  But I think the principles hold true regardless of the circumstances of who/how/when?

That is, if a LBS always had a spouse who gaslighted for the whole relationship, the behaviour is not new.



It is far easier to recover and rebuild with a vanisher than with a clinger. A clinger never goes away and never allows us space to rebuild and repair. I know, Mr J has been both. When he was a super clinger it was impossible to recover or rebuilt. He was always in contac. There was no space to breath and his craziness was always present. His vanishing self is a blessing. At least to me, that experienced the opposite, it is.
My inner jury is out on this. I just don't know. Both the likelihood of it or how easy or difficult it might be. Simply don't have the experience to say and don't see a consistent pattern, more a combo of the individual and how hard the karma bus hits them.
But I agree with you on the blessings of a vanisher for sure.

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« Last Edit: November 30, 2018, 03:34:37 AM by Treasur »
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.


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#56: November 30, 2018, 03:42:31 AM
But I think the principles hold true regardless of the circumstances of who/how/when?

More or less. But with the MLCer, if they weren't like that before, we know it come with MLC and is only MLC related. If so, there isn't much reason for us to believe a single thing they say nor are we in the same as someone who was vulnerable and a non-MLCer person took advantage of the situation.

We have spouses who flipped and are out there where the buses don't run.

Is your real husband as horrible and cruel as the MLC person, or is the MLC horrible and cruel?

Since Mr J was physically abusive, it was easy to know his MLC person was horrible, nasty and cruel. His MLC person is all kinds of horrible. There is nothing good or nice about his crisis self.

Is the real Mr J still there? At times and briefly. I barely have contact with him, which is good. Had enough of his clinger insanity.

Pity he wasn't a vanisher from the start. I would had been easier.
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#57: December 05, 2018, 04:54:04 PM
Here’s a good article for all of you who have had to endure OPs who post the relationship all over social media:

https://hellogiggles.com/lifestyle/brag-relationship-facebook-heres-really-means/amp/
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#58: December 11, 2018, 08:53:23 AM
https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-42460315

A great read. Resources for jurisdictions where this actually breaks a law.

Cheating and manipulation: Confessions of a gaslighter

For Greg, there was a third quality that the women he gaslighted all shared. They were all intelligent and successful. Intriguingly, he says this was a key factor in how receptive they were to being gaslighted.

"I've dated a doctor, an engineer, a well-known social media personality.

"From my experience it's not true that it is vulnerable or insecure women who are susceptible to gaslighting. These were successful women but that came with a perception of what they thought a 'successful' relationship should look like and they shared that. They gave me a blueprint to what they were looking for in a man."

The women, he says, approached relationships like they did their careers. With a checklist of qualities, often from relationships depicted in films, and high expectations.
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#59: December 11, 2018, 09:06:06 AM
Very interesting, thanks Ready!
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#60: December 11, 2018, 02:36:07 PM
The guy is a jerk and the women were fools.

Being intelligent and successful does not mean the women weren't vulnerable or insecure. Not being a well off woman does not equal being vulnerable or insecure.

I'm with Dr. George Simon when he says in the article "Gaslighting as a term has been overused," says Dr George Simon ... "

It is like the overuse of nascissist/narcissism on HS. It is so used it loses its value/ends up being applied where it does not belong to.

LBS tend to be very aware of the MLCers lies, even if LBS also tend to be very down at first. OW/OM I don't know. They probably believe what they want to believe. And the MLCer has drunk their own kool aid.
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#61: January 15, 2019, 04:19:07 AM
I find this article very interesting indeed.....

http://lakelegal.co.uk/spousal-abandonment-syndrome/
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#62: January 15, 2019, 04:51:57 AM
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#63: January 15, 2019, 04:55:37 AM
I find this article very interesting indeed.....

http://lakelegal.co.uk/spousal-abandonment-syndrome/
Interesting article... It does describe a lot of our situations however does not relate it to MLC. So is this considered normal?
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H moved in with parents 11th May 2018 (I asked him to leave as couldn't handle the EA rubbed all over my face)
H moved abroad 29th Dec 2018, not sure if OW will join him or if they are still in contact.
Confirmation H and OW are together, presume PA  - 3rd June 2019
H gets engaged with OW - Oct 2019
H "finally" asks for divorce - Aug 2020
H marries OW - March 2021.. We are not divorced!
Divorced - Dec 7th 2022

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#64: January 15, 2019, 05:11:59 AM
I find this article very interesting indeed.....

http://lakelegal.co.uk/spousal-abandonment-syndrome/
Interesting article... It does describe a lot of our situations however does not relate it to MLC. So is this considered normal?

I don't think it is normal - in fact, they say that only 5% of marriages end this way.
Quote
The most recent figures from the Office for National Statistics show that 130,473 couples divorced across the UK in 2013. Family law experts Lake Legal estimate that up to five per cent of UK divorces could be triggered by Spousal Abandonment Syndrome and that it is becoming increasingly more commonplace amongst UK married couples.

The article does not relate it per se to MLC, but it does give hints that it could be considered a mid-life phenomenon.
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#65: January 15, 2019, 06:14:32 AM
I say hip hip hooray!  Even if it doesn't mention MLC (which is largely regarded as a joke anyway) it does recognise that there is a particular pattern of behaviour which is sudden, no warning or inkling of problems or unhappiness, invariably includes an affair and that is pre-dominantly affects long term marriages.

I think this is a huge leap forward in recognition.  UK is considering changing divorce laws to incude no fault. This SAS would certainly support any spouse's claim to refuse a divorce and may even offer greater support on financial support for children.

At last - some recognition and MLC will soon be recognised and understood as countries begin to genuinely tackle mental health.

My hope is that in the future mental health issues are "prevented" where possible through clear and good education on well being and well  thinking.  In parts of the UK schools are now employing well being officers and I am focussing my coaching training on young people who face difficult home life situations as well as supporting women who are facing an LBS situation.   
The sooner we can educate people in maintaining better mental health and the sooner the law recognises this syndrome for what it could be (ie MLC) the sooner we can start to believe that it will become a thing of the past.  We can but dream...
 
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#66: January 15, 2019, 07:42:24 AM
It does not say "MLC" per say, but it is written by a lawyer in a legal office, and is really talking about his "observations". BUT it screams MLC to me and likely to any therapist ( that belives in MLC) . My husband just poured coffee and I read it to him . He always gets a pained expression on his face, eyes squint and he looks up ...and he "thinks". He finally says ...that is about MLC or whatever "breakdown " I had . I had a total breakdown emotionally , mentally...in everyway possible. I did become someone else. I have been told I turned into my dad . Barbiedoll, my life in the past 10 years has almost felt like a pinball machine where all the heavy steel balls where all on one side and no matter what I did ...I could not move them .   

Daughter came into room ... conversation ended .
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#67: January 15, 2019, 09:18:37 AM
Oh I agree this screams MLC... My question about being normal was because it was written very matter of fact. Or at least that's how I interpreted it.. ie Spouse feels unhappy for years, doesn't communicate it and all of the sudden leaves when they find someone else.. LBS is devastated and these are the common features.. case closed!  But as Barbie pointed out (and didn't quite sink in with me when I read it), it's coming from a legal office so it is to be expected. In any case, I found it very good and one to keep in my MLC bookmarks!

I actually feel my own solicitor has made up his own mind about what's happening to my H. Certain comments he made really got me thinking he has it all figured out!
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M - 46 (40 @BD1)
Together 15 years, M 8 @separation
No kids
BD1 - 26th Aug 2017 (Not happy, life has no purpose)
BD2 - 22nd March 2018 (Marriage is over, we want different things, confessed EA with someone 12,000 kms away although "she means nothing")
H moved in with parents 11th May 2018 (I asked him to leave as couldn't handle the EA rubbed all over my face)
H moved abroad 29th Dec 2018, not sure if OW will join him or if they are still in contact.
Confirmation H and OW are together, presume PA  - 3rd June 2019
H gets engaged with OW - Oct 2019
H "finally" asks for divorce - Aug 2020
H marries OW - March 2021.. We are not divorced!
Divorced - Dec 7th 2022

"One of the happiest moments in life is when you find the courage to let go of what you can’t change"

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#68: January 15, 2019, 10:02:44 AM
When I saw my lawyer , who I do know fairly well , I bawled my eyes out all over him . He absolutely said ... " I have seen this countless times and by the time we get the legal balls rolling , some of these guys wake the hell up. ".  He did help me "lock-up" all the money and assets and told me" to save my money and come back in 6 months if my husband does not re-enter the planet". He KNEW for sure . I never had to see him after that .
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#69: January 15, 2019, 10:05:47 AM
Another very interesting article regarding this subject ...sent to me by a long-time HS "lurker"... and thanks so much my friend , I do appreciate it!

http://www.nlpls.com/faq/spec/spousalAbandonment.php
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#70: January 15, 2019, 02:14:15 PM
SPOUSAL ABANDONMENT.

You would think that after all this time I would not be needing to learn something new.

WE focus on their crisis, what a mid life crisis is, what similarities are with our spouses but what has been lacking for me is an understanding about why I have felt so much distress. I know people who have been divorced but they do not seem to experience this continual pain, so many many years later.

This was done to me. I agree, that by the time they tell us, they have been thinking about it for a long time..it was not a "spur of the moment thing"...they knew and they never ever shared it with us.

And so we are shocked and traumatized and broken.

Amazing how helpful this forum can be, even to old timer's. Maybe now that I can see it with this definition, I can better accept how hard it has been to get over this.

Thanks Barbie for sharing!
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#71: January 15, 2019, 02:24:19 PM
I agree 100% xyzcf... about a deeper understanding of the catastrophic injury this causes in the ones left behind. YEARS to process and come to terms with ...NOT like the "typical " divorce. I absolutely remember telling my husband in hysterics that it would have been easier if he had died. And I believe that with all my heart .
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The Journey Of Reconciliation .. is for the brave .

Anger is like a candle in the wind ... it blows out the light of all reason.

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#72: January 15, 2019, 02:36:32 PM
I absolutely remember telling my husband in hysterics that it would have been easier if he had died. And I believe that with all my heart .

Yup.
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#73: January 15, 2019, 02:39:54 PM
This is so relevant to me today.  I have been beating myself up for still healing.  Every day I wake up still in pain, and I have to talk myself through a morning routine to get going.  After almost 5 years since BD, this has had a major impact on my self esteem - what's wrong with me that I can't get over what happened.  Reading the article says that my reaction and healing time is different than others going through a "normal" divorce.  It says that it is ok - I am ok.  Thanks for posting it.
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#74: January 15, 2019, 02:48:09 PM
Shining, same timeline and still wake up every day thinking the way you think.

Barbie thanks for posting this article. It covers how I feel completely. Only, I knew there were problems by the time my H walked out. I just didn't know what it was and I thought I'd be given a chance to work at the marriage. Still, every feeling mentioned is how I feel. It gives me a sense of relief to know that I'm normal for not having been able to move on yet.

Maybe people think it would be hard for an LBS to know she could be suffering still 5 years later, but for me it it helps. It makes me feel less like a failure, and more like I'm still in the right place in the manual for abandoned spouses.
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#75: January 15, 2019, 02:58:29 PM
Thank you for the link, Barbie.

It is only normal in the sense that is happens to 5% of marriages (in the UK?in the US?), therefore it is not a single, isolated incident. The other 95% of marriages do not end this way, so, in that regard, those 5% aren't the normal way.

My lawyer was also familiar with such cases. Which tells me lawyer from different countries have seen it and dealt with it. On the other hand, he said he had never seen anyone doing the crazy divorce legal stuff Mr J was doing. Mr J was a bit extreme in his legal crazyness.

It is normal to still feel hurt after many years. This thing doesn't just go away. Agree with Milly, for me it is better to know others are still hurt/feel a certain way, years down the road. I no longer feel hurt, etc., but it was always good to know others felt the same I did years ago.
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#76: January 15, 2019, 03:05:13 PM
I am going to be brave and raw and risk a scolding from those that have been impatient with my never ending struggle ...I have stopped posting gut-raw struggles ( after 5 YEARS!) as there are some who judge the firetruck out of me ...that will silence me...but only temporarily . I am incredibly hard on myself for not being able to "heal or get over it or make decision " . Just THIS MORNING I took an online quiz to see if I have BPD ....yes I did!  . Because I do feel like there has to be "something wrong with me " to STILL feel such pain about it . MOVE ON ALREADY...I say to my battered SELF . Frustrated by my "SELF". It is like you are trying to heal with the "rapist" that brutally raped you ... no one will ever convince me that it is "easy".  I have been told repeatedly by therapists that I am OK , that I am "normal", that my emotions and reactions are "normal"... some HS members think not. It will take YEARS ..any "short-cuts" will fester and sit in there to re-appear later . UGH. I too feel relief that the pain is described in a way that those of us that can still weep about it ...we are normal. Thank you ladies...
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#77: January 15, 2019, 03:19:06 PM
I'm one of those. The way I see it, it is normal to hurt/feel pain years down the road. But there is a level of anger, hurt/pain or other issues, that if they remain so raw many years down the road, something is not working.

It is painful to read your threads, Barbie. Nothing seems to work for you and the issues seem to retain the same level.

People may still feel hurt/pain, but make visible progress. One thing does not exclude the other.

The other complicated thing, Barbie, is that you have your husband back. Most of us do not have our spouses back. So, ii makes it even more hard to read. Someone who has the spouse back, but is still inside so much pain and other issues. Very complicated.

Shouldn't someone whose spouse has been back for a good while be working on the marriage? Shouldn't there be steady progress in such regard, as well as with both spouses? Why still such raw pain and other feelings, Barbie? I don't know.

Why do some who have their spouse back feel the way you do and others, like Acorn, so differently? I don't know.
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#78: January 15, 2019, 03:30:00 PM
Hi Barbie,

I am much much longer than you are. The therapy I started in Aug 2017 has helped me a great deal, but I am still in therapy.

He did something recently that sent me crashing once again BECAUSE I STILL DO NOT WANT THIS LIFE!! The destruction of my very small family causes me a great deal of grief.

We should not pass judgement on one another because there are so many factors as to why we feel the way we do.

It is not as simple as "your husband is back so what's your problem?". No, in many ways I think I might have healed a bit faster had he done what I asked in 2010...to leave me alone and never see me again..but no, he smiled and said "oh there will be plenty of opportunities to see you" and he continued with touch and goes and gifts and visits and holidays away together but has never addressed the real issue..his abandonment of me and all that I held dear.

I don't know if I will ever be ok...OP asked me that years ago..would I ever be ok if he did not come back and my answer to OP years ago was "I don't know".

So far, I still hurt every single day.

Anjae wrote:
Quote
The way I see it, it is normal to hurt/feel pain years down the road. But there is a level of anger, hurt/pain or other issues, that if they remain so raw many years down the road, something is not working.

Or perhaps there is no timetable for grief which is what I learned working with parents whose children died.....it will continue to color every single day of their lives, the loss of their child....one of my best friend's son died 20 years ago, she has 5 other children and 14 grandchildren...but it doesn't matter..she still mourns for her son.

We are different. The way we respond is different. Some of us, Barbie, myself, MyBrainIsBroken are still in a dark pit that no matter how hard we are "trying" to recover from, we do not.

I accept it. I hate it but cannot see any other "thing" I can do to change how it is for me.

Oh, just thought of something I need to add..came up in therapy, something that happened to me when I was 8 years old...my therapist pointed out to me, so this has happened to you before that someone you loved left you suddenly with no warning or explanation. I may be having difficulty because that loss was never resolved..who knows?
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« Last Edit: January 15, 2019, 03:34:24 PM by xyzcf »
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#79: January 15, 2019, 03:43:46 PM
Must likely, there is no timetable for grief. But there really is a level of anger, etc. that if it persists after many years means something is not right. Intense, raw anger for years on end signals some sort of problem.

There is also a difference between anger and hurt. As there is between the raw intensity of Barbie's feelings and yours.

Brain has more complicated issues that do not pertain to feelings brought by his wife MLC. It is a different situation. If, after 9 years, you still need therapy, logically, there are still things that need to be solved. Otherwise there would be no need for therapy.

But that is the thing, Acorn, and others, have spouses back relatively early on, RCR did, for example. They are not in the same place Barbie is. What is the difference? Because there has to be one.

The one thing that can be done, as most certainly several therapists have told you, and others, is perspective. To look at things from a different perspective.

However, one of the problems with MLC is that things keep happening. But that is not the case when a spouse has been back for a good while, the person is back, it is a different phase. It is not logical that the exact same feelings and issues that existed at BD exist in reconnection or reconciliation. Otherwise, the whole journey, for both LBS and MCLer, would be BD/Replay and it is not.

Oh, just thought of something I need to add..came up in therapy, something that happened to me when I was 8 years old...my therapist pointed out to me, so this has happened to you before that someone you loved left you suddenly with no warning or explanation. I may be having difficulty because that loss was never resolved..who knows?

Could be. Who knows? You, and the others, know that, as a general rule, I am not found of therapy, aside from the practical type of therapy you are now doing. I don't notice much, if any, difference, in progress, healing, etc. in LBS who do therapy and in those who do not. If anything, at times, therapy only seems to bring more and more problems/issues to deal with, never allowing a person, or couple, to have peace and time to heal. Constantly digging into a wound is not good for brain and body.
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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#80: January 15, 2019, 04:22:59 PM
I agree with that Anjae...

 I read a phrase: the only way to heal a wound is stop touching it.

Rather simplistic and not easy to do.

And I agree Barbies posts are the most painful I have ever read.

Although the pain may never go entirely away, for me ( I have to add here not pain due to what the ex did, although he's the one that destroyed the family which devastated me almost 10 years ago now.) , it's learning to live with it, time passes and pain lessens, hearts and souls can heal. I've grieved the loss of quite a few things over the last few years. That marriage was not one of them.

We all are different and are going to heal at different rates, but I do believe there are ways we may keep ourselves stuck in that pain..it must be familiar somehow to some of us.
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At some point you have to get sick of going through the same sh!t.

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#81: January 16, 2019, 03:49:41 PM
I think grief is very personal.  We all know people who rebounded fast and start a new life, even after dealing with a runaway spouse.  We also know people who never get through the betrayal and stay in the anger for the rest of their lives.  For me, I think I have healed as much as possible.  This is what I need to accept, not that he left.  I know we can't predict the future, but it is unlikely - no matter how my life turns out - that I will ever say this was a good thing.  I will never believe that the destruction of my family unit was necessary in order for me to grow personally - that the growth from the pain was positive to my life.  Lately, I feel that those around me are measuring my healing.  If I say I had a terrible marriage and thank goodness he is out of my life, then they think I am healed.  If not, I am still "broken" and shouldn't consider dating and re-building.  This type of scrutiny is difficult for me to process.

I did not have a terrible marriage and for many years his words and actions matched.  When it blew up, I was in total trauma and fight/flight mode.  In the end, I went NC to help myself.  I worked on myself, I learned to get in touch with my feelings, I did the best I could financially and recreating a home for myself.  I feel as if I have made great progress, but I feel so judged - by people who have no idea what we have been through.  Yes, it will be five years, and as I said earlier I still have the physical pain in the morning, force myself to start my day, and miss him terribly.  The nights are long as I don't have children living at home to keep me distracted.  Is it still about him or am I just lonely.  If or when I do decide to date, if I am lucky enough to find someone important, will that daily pain go away - maybe, but it won't dissolve 20+ years of life with him.  It will be different, and can be as good, but won't erase the marriage or how it ended.  I am not sure I am making sense tonight, but my point is that - in my humble opinion - we all have so much to deal with and it affects how fast we heal.  Issues from our childhood, the drama in the home before they leave, the damage they do to our self-esteem, financial implications, the breakup of the family, the death of dreams, the lonely nights and days, the loss of extended family and friends all play a role.  Barbie's H may be home but it doesn't change the fact that she must deal with these issues - things can't ever be the same because the marriage died.  My hope is that she and her H are able to find their way to a new life and a new marriage that is stronger than the original.  For any of us, no matter the length of time, the only thing we can do is to continue to work through the process - whatever that means for you.  For me, I need to accept that for the first time in my life I am depressed and anxious.  I am working with a doctor to find a medication to help me.  I also still need therapy.  I also found a life coach to help me identify my own goals since I am so lost and unable to figure it out for myself.  I still need certain friends that let me cry 5 yrs from BD and don't judge me.  Most do, so I have learned who to go too.  I know that when I am lonely and it is night time, I can come to the forum and read and not feel so alone.  I know that I need to do a better job of self care, which I assume will come with continued focus on the depression.  I know that I still need to work on not obsessing over him with the OW - to let it go.  I am still a work in progress, but I am not done.  I will rise from the ashes, and my success story may not be that he returned home, but that I found myself and created a wonderful life.  That is such a different thought than when I started years ago posting on this site.   We all just need to keep putting one foot in front of the other --- until we don't. 
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BD: March 2014, Left Sept 2014, Back Nov 2014
Left again in February 2015.  Asked for D on 9/22/15
Said he was "sure" he wanted a D in Dec 2015; 
Admitted long term affair - May 14, 2017 - says he is in love with the "symptom" but wants to build a relationship with me with "clear expectations" WHATEVER THAT MEANS!  Settlement Agreement signed 9/20/17.
Divorce final 3/14/18.
NC - by choice - 1/2018

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#82: January 16, 2019, 04:24:24 PM
Hi, Shining.

Glad to know you are seeing a doctor to help you with the anxiety and depression. 

I will never believe that the destruction of my family unit was necessary in order for me to grow personally - that the growth from the pain was positive to my life.

I also don't believe that the destuction of the marriage/relationship that come with MLC was necessary for our personal growth. However, since it happened, it is possible to turn into possitive growth.

Saying we had a terrible marriage when we didn't does not make sense. Why would people think it equals being married? What happened had nothing to do with the marriage. It affected the marriage, but it does not pertain to the marriage. MLC belongs to the MLCer.

I know that I need to do a better job of self care, which I assume will come with continued focus on the depression. 

I hope you are able to further work on your self care and that the depression gets better.
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#83: January 18, 2019, 12:45:22 PM


Posting it also here at Xyzcf request.

Thanks Anjae.

My therapist introduced me to this several months ago....it is amazing how in such a small chart, it has explained so many things to me...like why do I feel shame?

I wanted it posted here to refer back to. The goal is to spend as much time as possible in the green zone and there are many techniques you can use to "train" your body's responses to the reaction you have each time you are retraumatized.

http://rubyjowalker.com/PVchart7HD.jpg
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#84: January 19, 2019, 08:23:21 PM
BD was June 29, 2014, so soon it will have been five years. I still don't understand how this could have happened. I've been on AD medication and in therapy for depression for more than four years. I'm surprised my health insurance continues to pay. I recently started learning in therapy how to connect with the broken parts inside me. The goal is to become stable enough to be able to do EMDR therapy. I still have a long way to go.

I still don't understand why I'm still alive but I continue to go through the motions every day. I don't expect that my life will ever get better. I continue to come here to read the forums because I am unable to connect with anyone in RL and the only person I can talk with in RL about how I feel is my therapist. It's hard to write about it on here but at least I can read other people's descriptions of how they feel which match how I feel and then I don't feel quite so alone.
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#85: January 20, 2019, 03:38:08 AM
Brain, I feel very much like you. My BD May 2014 so I'm also facing that daunting reality that it's 5 years and nothing has changed. I'm also on ADs and have been going to therapy for 4 years. I also have trouble really connecting with people in RL because I can't share this side of my life. They wouldn't understand.

I'm still in disbelief that this is where my life has ended up. My goal now is to reach a kind of acceptance. I suspect if I could find someone new and fall madly in love again, it would propel me forward. However, I doubt that the loss of 30 years will ever truly go away. There's not enough time to recreate another 30 years and this leaves me feeling bitter.

I would like to understand this chart better, I'm not getting it.
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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#86: January 20, 2019, 06:29:20 AM
Hi Milly,

The chart helped me to understand my feelings, why after so many years I was still feeling so far from what I felt like before BD. Anxiety, depression, fear, shame. The right hand side of the chart explains what your body is doing when you are in these states.

Fight/flight is a protective mechanism that the body will go into when faced with danger. It is what allows a mother to run faster and scoop her child out of the road when a truck is almost going to run her child over....when people are suffering from PTSD, their bodies enter habitually into the fight flight mode....when a new trauma happens, it may not even seem very big to others, we can also go into a freeze mode. This happened to me when after 9 years, he divorced me out of the blue....I had an episode of dissociation which was frightening but if you look at "freeze" it actually is something that can happen.

Th goal is to be able to stay in the green zone, which is in all ways healthier for you. The therapist that I go to teaches me to be aware of how my body feels and ways that I can change that feeling to bring me back into a calmer place, a place where my body functions can continue in a normal rather than heightened way.

I hope that explains things a bit.
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"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#87: January 20, 2019, 07:42:31 AM
I don't know how it's possible to recover when the person you have loved, trusted, and depended on for decades sudden and inexplicably rejects you and turns to somebody else. In an instant 36 years of my life became meaningless.

I also had a revelation during therapy similar to xyzcf's. When I was a child, my father was the only person I could count on yet he kept hurting me over and over. My therapist told me I'm experiencing the same thing now with my wife.

Thanks to everyone for sharing, especially Milly and xyzcf.
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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#88: February 04, 2019, 02:02:44 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/feb/04/stress-anxiety-knees-weak-palms-sweaty

Quite an interesting article on stress, the many health problem long time stress causes and research on the matter.

«“The biggest single risk factor for depression is stress,” says Bullmore. Understanding better this connection could open up new opportunities for treatments targeting immune activity and could even make it possible to intervene before depression occurs in people at risk.»

The article also has an explanation on the role of the three stress hormones: adrenaline, cortisol, noradrenaline and its chemical formula.

Will put also put it on the neuroscience thread.
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« Last Edit: February 04, 2019, 02:04:17 PM by Anjae »
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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#89: February 04, 2019, 06:52:29 PM
Very good article.
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"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#90: February 06, 2019, 06:16:17 PM
MIDLIFE For Dummies

Welcome to the wonderful world of Mid Life Crisis!! You are about to embark on one of the most perilous journeys you have ever taken. A journey fraught with intrigue and guaranteed to turn you inside out! This book is designed to help you make sure you get the most emotional bang for your buck.

In these pages are the “how to” answers to the questions you have been asking yourself about damaging as many people as you can along the way. Come on and dig in, it’s time to get this roller coaster rolling on down the tracks!!

Chapter 1 – Choosing the Correct Speech

There are 4 basic speeches for you to choose from. They are:

a) I love you but I don’t know if I’m in love with you.

b) I’ve never loved you, and we should never have gotten married.

c) We got married to young. I never knew anything besides you.

d) You tricked me into marrying you, I would never have done it otherwise.

Once you have decided on which speech to give, you need to cause as much anxiety in your spouse as you can before you actually give it. Continue to the next chapter for Lessons in building anxiety.

Chapter 2 – Lessons in Building Anxiety

You will find these lessons to be helpful in causing anxiety in your spouse and others (depending on the level of pain and damage you want to cause), not just prior to giving the speech, but throughout your MLC.

Lesson 1 – Monstrification of Your Spouse

This is easy to accomplish. Simply think of only the “bad” things that your spouse has done throughout your entire relationship. Have one of those “angel” spouses? No problem, just remember how bad she always makes you feel. DO NOT under any circumstances remember fondly your spouse, or anything they have done for you. Remember, they are going to be the cause of all of your problems, so it is imperative that you convince your self of this first.

Lesson 2 – Emotional Detachment

This will be very easy to do after accomplishing lesson 1. All you have to do is start reminding yourself that you don’t care about them, what they feel, what they want, or if they hurt. Simple! Every time you remind yourself of this, you will get further and further away from your relationship emotionally. Now, that wasn’t too hard was it? On to lesson 3

Lesson 3 – Mass Confusion and Indecision

This lesson requires a little more thought and attention. You must constantly practice saying “I don’t know” to ANY and ALL questions. That is imperative!! Your spouse (and others) must never know precisely what is going on in-side your head. Also, never let them know where you are going, where you have been, who you were with (this will go hand in hand with the lesson on the Other Person, or OP), or whether or not they can expect you to return home.

Lesson 4 – Lies and Deceit

To get the most damage, and cause the most pain, you must lie and decieve at every opportunity. And to really achieve hall of fame status, you should be very inept at it, so that everyone knows that you are lying, or suspects, but can’t prove it initially. This works very well for the following chapters, OP and Cake Eating.

Chapter 3 – The Other Person (or OP)

Now it is time for you to succumb to temptation. You KNOW all of those other women/men want you! They have been coming on to you for years!! It is time for you to give them their chance at having some of you. Make sure that you leave a very confusing trail for your spouse to follow. One that lets them suspect, but have to dig and sneak (to make them feel worse about themselves) to find the information they need to prove it. Hold out admitting the affair as long as you can, and don’t admit it ever, if you can get away with it.

Chapter 4 – Cake Eating

This chapter is designed to string your spouse along in uncertainty as long as possible, because as long as they have hope, they won’t be able to go out and find their own lives and be fulfilled. Why should they get to do that, while you are so miserable? They shouldn’t!! So, make sure that you are affectionate occasionally (not too often, as this will raise anxiety levels), that you drag your feet about making a decision on the marriage, and that you leave and come back several times (as many as you can get away with).

Chapter 5 – History Revision

It is very important that you revise the life you have lead with your spouse. You must use words like: Always, Ever, Never and All of the Time. Always precede the statement with the terms: you, I, and we. As in “you always nag me” “I never ever (double bonus here) get to do what I want” and “We have to do what you want all of the time”. This will help to make your spouse feel like the way you are behaving is all their fault, and can cause them to feel even worse about themselves than they already did!!

Chapter 6 – It’s All About You!!

Remember this is all about you! What you want and need, RIGHT NOW! You shouldn’t have to wait until you can afford something, just go on out and get it! You deserve a new haircut, new clothes, and some new toys. You’ve worked for it. You would probably look great in that new Convertible, or on that new Harley!! So don’t hesitate! You live in the here and now! So why wait until tomorrow!!

Remember, the word is CRISIS and if you are in one, EVERYONE else should have to ride the Roller coaster with you! It’s no fun taking a ride alone, and you know what they say about misery loving company! Go on out there and get started, so much pain and damage, and so little time!

Chapter 7 – Avoid, Ignore, and Run Away

This chapter is to help you deal with the problems that your spouse will try to cause. We don’t want you to have to “deal” with anything, now do we? You shouldn’t have to “think” about any “issues” right now, except those that concern you “feeling good”. The best way to handle this, is to Avoid, Ignore, and Run Away. Any time someone tries to make you see a more “reasonable” stance on a subject, simply Avoid making a reply… stare out into space, as if you are thinking about something important, and they will become uncomfortable and leave you alone.

If there are responsibilities that need your attention, simply ignore them. You don’t have to do anything you don’t feel like doing. And the best for last is Run Away! This can be accomplished in many different ways. OP’s can help you Run Away from all of these “problems” as well as Alcohol, Drugs, New Sports Cars… etc the list is endless. Of course, you can always just leave… but remember not to let them know where you are going, and if you’ll be back!!

Chapter 8 – MC and Therapists

Your spouse may ask you to go to counseling with her/him. This is only useful to make them feel better. It cannot possibly have anything to you so there is no reason for you to follow-up with anything suggested–it doesn’t matter to you. The only thing you should look for is more reasons (excuses) for avoiding, running and ignoring (see previous chapter).

Chapter 9 – I Don’t Have To if I Don’t Want To and You Can’t Make Me!

Remember that this is about YOU, and what YOU want and how YOU feel!! No one else is important, so don’t let them make you feel as if you have to listen to anything they say. Your spouse will try to help you of course, because they love you. Don’t let them get away with giving you unwanted advice. Let them know in the teenage vernacular, that they can’t make you do anything.

This is important, you must be as childish as possible!! Any truly adult behavior on your part will only convince them that you are listening to what they are saying, and you will have to start back at the beginning. Of course, this technique can be used knowingly to cause more confusion and chaos, just beware of the danger, you don’t actually want to start acting like an adult!!

Chapter 10 – How To Threaten and/or How To Move Out

You threaten to move out for weeks or months but you don’t. (*)You tell your spouse that you got too much on your plate right now to look for a flat but that you will do so in 2 weeks time. After 2 weeks, repeat from (*).

If your wife wants to come too close to you, like entering your bedroom to talk to you, tell her to stay away or you will move out. When she replies that you will move out anyway tell her that you will move out faster if she comes any closer

Chapter 11 – Art of Clinging

The Art of Clinging to the End of the Mattress without falling off the matrimonial bed while still sharing it with your spouse.

Chapter 12 – Advanced Lessons

This is usually reserved for those in more difficult situations, where the LBS has responded not by tossing you out, threatening to leave, or filing for divorce, but instead persists in not only OFFERING to cooperate, but actually MAKING THE CHANGES you said you needed.

“I am tired of living like this/I don’t want to live like this anymore/I am not going to live my life like this?” often is coupled with another advanced tactic, “It’s not you, it’s me”.

This line is most effective AFTER the LBS has jumped through hoops and bent over backwards. It basically confirms that no matter what changes the LBS is willing to make, the incompatibility lies within the MLCer, who has no intention of, or implied desire or ability to, compromise.

Appendix

HOW TO MAKE YOUR SPOUSE THINK SHE IS CRAZY

1. When confronted by the evidence of an EA or PA, become very indignant. Stress that the LBS is obviously just a jealous sob/bi*ch, and you are entitled to “buddies” of the opposite sex.

2. Never, ever answer the question, “Are you okay? Is there something wrong?” with a direct answer that might actually lead to a discussion that might help the marriage. Continue to never talk to spouse, never give her/him a personal compliment or touch of affection and by all means work on the “cling to the edge of the mattress to avoid touching” manoeuvre that is so successful in making your spouse crazy.

3. Always bear in mind that your spouse will expect you to want to at least give them the chance to “fix” the marriage. Since you have already checked out emotionally (of course NEVER tell them that!), you are under no obligation to actually listen to anything they say or acknowledge anything they do. This tactic is also extremely beneficial when they employ the MLC diet. When they lose a massive amount of weight and you are in ear shot of someone who mentions to spouse about the weight loss, say “Are you losing weight? Why don’t you ever tell me things?”

4. Of course one of the most successful ways to drive them crazy may only be used when you have earned the MLC Black Belt. Go to marriage counselling for months, let them pour out their soul to you and the counsellor and let them believe they are actually accomplishing something. Then arrange things so the spouse finds you in your own home with OP. This will accomplish two things: a. She will finally have to understand how lucky you are to have found your “soul mate” and b. She will be doubly betrayed because she thought you were actually working on the marriage.

DON’T LET YOUR SPOUSE GET TOO INDEPENDENT – STATEGIES FOR SUCKING YOUR SPOUSE BACK IN

1. Make negative comments about OP or the chances that the relationship with OP will succeed. HOWEVER, under no circumstances, make any commitment to end the relationship with OP.

2. Make veiled hints about suicide or excessive drinking or drug use. Be erratic and hard to contact.

3. Do random acts of kindness such as yard work or something. That will keep your spouse confused and hopeful.

4. Make vague comments hinting that things might work out between you and your spouse IN THE FUTURE. HOWEVER, under no circumstances take any actions to work anything out.

CUSTODY – Using the Kids To Your Advantage

If you have children, they can be extremely useful for inducing fear and panic in your spouse. Recommended phrases include, “You’re poisoning my kids against me”, “You put that idea into their heads”, and “You need to do [insert pertinent action here] for the sake of the kids’.” Remember, your spouse, being a responsible and loving person, is not only trying to cope with his/her own feelings, but trying to protect the children, and you can use that to your advantage.

Don’t forget to use the fact that if you spend any time with your kids, you should get Extra Credit Bonus Good Parent points from your spouse. It doesn’t matter if you feed them ice cream for breakfast and have them watch “Hellboy” when they asked for “Veggie Tales”, you Just Wanted To Make Them Happy, and since YOU are the best judge of Happiness, that makes you Super Parent.

You can use this opportunity to trash talk your spouse (“Isn’t this more fun than what Mommy/Daddy would let you do?” “Mom/Dad doesn’t know how to relax.”) which of course, will be repeated back to your spouse so you get the benefit of destroying their self-esteem second hand.

Highly advanced MLCers may want to start casually using the word Custody, but be very, very careful. While useful for sending your spouse into a state of panic, you certainly do not want to be responsible for a bunch of kids who will seriously cut into your personal fun time. The word Custody should only be used in a casual tone of voice for the most devastating effect.

BUTTON PUSHING

You (the mlcer) know a lot about your spouse. You know what pushes their buttons to get them both upset and/or happy. You have the power, you can do it! So using the kids to upset them is fair game (see section on how to use “custody” to upset them but not take on the “custody”). And if that ever stops working, find something else. Suggestions might include pets, valuables in the home, their appearance, family, career. Nothing is out of your reach since you have put in so many years getting to know your spouse–use what you know.

THE BLAME GAME

By now, you should be aware that all of this MUST be your spouse’s fault, however, your spouse may not understand this completely yet, so you need to start planting the seeds.

There are several ingenious ways to put the blame on your spouse, and we will be exploring them all.

Method 1: The Non-Blame Statement

I’m trying not to blame YOU

This statement implies that you are “not putting the blame on them” but on closer look (which your spouse is guaranteed to be doing) The words actually put all of the blame on the spouse (where of course we know it belongs).

Method 2: The Passive Blame Statement

I don’t think that I can live with you.
My opinion never mattered to you.
I can’t live like this.
We rarely have fun anymore.
I don’t want to live this way anymore.

These are passive statements that don’t actually assign blame to your spouse, but your spouse will definitely get the idea if you use them. They can’t help but see that it MUST be them that makes you feel this way.

Method 3: The Direct Blame Statement

You never listen to me.
You never put creases in my pants.
You use bagged salad.
You never keep the house clean.
You are going to do it your way.

All of these are direct statements of blame. You should mix actual faults with things that don’t really matter to make it more confusing, and make your spouse feel as bad as possible about themselves.

Your spouse has probably already started doing the hard work to look inside his/herself (Yuck, what an awful thought!) and will take on all of the faults you list to try and correct them. This will keep them occupied for awhile, and you can avoid any serious relationship talks while they apologize for and try to fix all of their own faults.

Make sure that you don’t actually accept the apology, that way you can continue to bring the fault up which will slow down their self improvement process. Remember, they are working on becoming better human beings, and you wouldn’t want that to happen to fast, as that would interfere with your ability to string them along.

Note: NEVER ACTUALLY ADMIT TO ANY FAULTS OF YOUR OWN!!!! REMEMBER, YOU DON’T HAVE ANY! YOU ARE THE GOOD ONE, AND HAD THE RIGHT TO HAVE AN AFFAIR, LIE, SPEND MONEY, OR ANY OTHER THING, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE ONES THAT ARE BAD!!!

Let’s not forget “We’re just incompatible – we always were.”

Also, when the LBS starts to make changes, make SURE you find fault with these changes, or point out how it’s “too little, too late”, or wasn’t what you meant AT ALL. If all else fails, put the LBS down for being so willing to change herself for your needs. Also, when the LBS starts to make changes, make SURE you find fault with these changes, or point out how it’s “too little, too late”, or wasn’t what you meant AT ALL.”

How to keep you spouse guessing…be mean one minute threatening divorce, etc then next day be kind and sweet almost the way your spouse remembers you..rinse repeat….

HOW TO CONTINUE THE CRAZINESS ONCE SEPARATION/DIVORCE IS AGREED UPON

1. Even though by now you, dear MLCer, have done everything human possibly to convince your spouse that you do not love him/her and want out, when the time comes to actually file, DON”T DO IT! This is the coup de gras of MLC. Absolutely DO NOT TAKE THE INITIATIVE. This is a most vital and awesome crazy-maker. Holding out will force your by now totally devastated spouse to finally throw up his/her hands and seek legal counsel.

2. Once the LBS has had enough and decides that divorce is in their best interest, you have won HUGE points here. Refusing to be the one to file now puts YOU in the role of victim, bringing you all the attention and pity necessary to allow you to again regain your image of the abused one in all this. Now you can, with absolutely NO guilt, tell everyone the divorce was your LBS’s idea (which of COURSE it was!) and they will assume that:

a. the LBS lost all that weight and obviously has been involved in an affair, and

b. the marriage ended because your LBS spouse is going through a – YES! THE PINNACLE OF CRAZINESS! – Midlife Crisis!!

Sourced from “The Midlife Club”
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Me 47
Him 47
OW 32
Married - 20 years
Together - 28 years
BD - Nov 2014 - reason for affair said I controlled his life, wore flannelette pyjama pants to bed and drove our family car 🤔
Moved in with Young OW and her 2 kids Jan 2015
Total Vanisher
Divorced Sept 2016
S21, S17, S16 (autism), D14

🌹🌹Let's be real...Bren is the only one who can do Bren. I'm the best Bren on the planet. Trying to turn a skank into a Bren? That will surely end in disappointment, if it hasn't already.🌹🌹

❤❤Family isn't an important thing.  IT IS EVERYTHING!! ❤❤



Vanished Return Stories Thread #1 - https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=9088.0;all
Vanisher Return Stories Link Thread #2 - https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=9378.new#new

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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#91: March 04, 2019, 01:51:56 PM
I find this very interesting . Maybe it helps better understand ourselves and not just our MLC runner. What a complex mess our childhoods can make us .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgUlowmSeHo
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The Journey Of Reconciliation .. is for the brave .

Anger is like a candle in the wind ... it blows out the light of all reason.

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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#92: March 18, 2019, 05:58:53 PM
I attended a silent retreat this weekend and had the opportunity to meet with a spiritual director who was the leader of the retreat and who I have also had an 8 week introduction course before.

One of the books he recommended to me is:

The Spiritual Challenge of Midlife: Crisis and Opportunity By Anselem Grun.

"In this concise volume the world-renowned spiritual master, Anselm Grün, invites readers to understand the twofold nature of midlife: on the one hand it is associated with a variety of problems or crises. On the other, it provides powerful opportunities for spiritual growth. This challenge--which is an inevitable work of God's grace--is an invitation into the fullness of our vocation.

Anselm Grün brings together ancient and modern thought, including the spirituality of the medieval mystic Johannes Tauler and the psychology of Carl Jung, in order to foster greater self-understanding during midlife."

I am looking forward to reading this and will let you know what I think. It combines Jung as well as the spiritual world of the MLCer.
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"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#93: March 18, 2019, 06:15:21 PM
Personal Tao has a similar view.

But, and that is always my issue, none of those things changes the damages, pain, hurt and often lifelong trauma inflicted by the MLCer.

Is there someone who has a solution to prevent MLC and what it causes? Some, like Jed Diamond, Larry Bilotta and a few others say they can help MLCer and spare the worst. I doubt it would work with our MLCers.

In plain, rude English, I don't much care for anyone's growth of any sort at mine, or other LBS, expense. Which is what happens with MLC.

I am more interested in know how to prevent MLC and stop it once underway. 
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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#94: March 18, 2019, 07:16:25 PM
The book recommended by Xyzcf, The Spiritual Challenge of Midlife: Crisis and Opportunity By Anselem Grun can be read here:

https://combonianum.org/2015/06/20/ogf-42015-problems-of-midlife-according-to-jung/
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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#95: March 18, 2019, 08:51:34 PM
xyz, it sounds like an interesting book. I'm looking forward to reading your book report.  :)
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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#96: March 21, 2019, 02:37:41 AM
Thanks Anjae, brilliant!!  I was looking for articles about Jung's perspective, thanks!!
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I hope you ache in regret as the truth hits you like a bullet and you find yourself replying: ""She loved me more than anyone else in the entire world and I tried to destroy her."  He failed by the way. 
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8412(Denjef's thread)

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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#97: March 21, 2019, 09:04:47 AM
You're welcome, Savy.

I read it, it is similar to RCR articles, a little more complicated and with a few more things. Can't say I liked it. For now, I am over my Jungian phase and prefer simpler, more practical things.
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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#98: April 09, 2019, 09:10:56 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/law/2019/apr/09/no-fault-divorce-lawyers-england-wales - No-fault divorce reform ~

Those of you in the UK, especially England and Wales will soon have no-fault divorce.

That is, there will be no blame, even in case of adultery. It is what happened here when the no-faul divorce law was passed.

It will also be possible for a spouse to request divorce even if the other one does not agree and have the divorce after 6 months.

The whole no fault and equal, for example, cheater and non-cheater, is horrible.

This is often one of the reasons given for no-fault divorce"It has to be remembered that after a divorce a family still has to function. By avoiding a process that encourages hostility, these proposals help achieve that.”

And always forgot that if one part in indeed at fault, the part that is not will be even more hurt.
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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#99: April 10, 2019, 12:56:28 AM
Yes Anjae - all of us in the UK had it blasted out on headline news all day yesterday and I assume that most of the UK LBSers on here did the indepth homework.

I understand why no fault is there (even though I don't personally like it) . However it is not a blanket after 6 months from filing Divorce. The 6 month period is mandatory and the couple will be expected to go through some form of mediation (pretty much as now) to work out why the divorce is necessary. 

I am personally concerned that there is no form of contesting the divorce and that either one can file.  That is something that the courts will eventually rue as it will probably make all custody battles and finance issues more drawn out rather than completed by the divorce process.

I also found it very annoying that the comment was about the no fault allowed people to move on with their lives quicker. I would guess that most of those that made that comment have never faced marital break up especially with children.  Certainly the MP that was interviewed all over the BBC has been married solidly for years.......

I just wish that there was a mandatory period of counselling and pre-marital advice to help young couples and those who are on second or third marriages to really understand each other and know why they are getting married (other than being "in lurve")
That said - my D is now relieved because she and her STBXH can go down this route ; their house is now sold and all other finances have been almost fully separated. It will be quiet -not necessarily quick.
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Stay at home MLCer
OW for 3.5 years - finishing Autumn 2016
Reconnection started 2017.
Separated 2022 (my choice because he wanted to live alone) and yet fully reconnected seeing each other often.

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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#100: April 10, 2019, 01:25:35 AM
I read this yesterday and I'm disgusted of course. Anjae, I agree that when the spouse guilty of breaking up the marriage and the family doesn't pay consequences, doesn't have to feel bad for their actions, doesn't have to 'suffer' for what they did, the abandoned spouse feels even more hurt.

I am disgusted by the concept sold that this will make breakups have less conflict. This is an insult to those of us going through it.

As long as it's easy and painless for a cheater/abuser to divorce and dump their spouse, family,  then there is no deterrent.

I have said it before, marriage is dangerous, especially for women who give up their careers for their husbands or to raise the family. They then are dumped at middle age with no means to support themselves, no pension, no chance to rebuild a future.

Marriage should come with a warning.
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#101: April 10, 2019, 07:24:47 PM
I am personally concerned that there is no form of contesting the divorce and that either one can file.

That is more or less what happens here since no-faul was introduced. One can contest, but there will be way of stop the divorce unless the couple agrees to. The reason Mr J's court divorce number two, opened under the no-fault law was dismiessed is because he had filled once before, by the old law (that require proof of guilt and he had none against me) is that no one can be taken to court twice for the same thing.

However, the law is a funny thing. Family court number two dismissed his case, he appealed to a higher court that said he was in the right. Process returned to family court. I told my lawyer I had enough, wyers agreed to write the family court saying the parts had accepted to deal privatly.

I am still waiting for the court document saying I agree to it that I have to sign. Or maybe Mr J changed his mind again and the judge really had to divorce us. If so, I never received any court document saying so.

Our absurd no-fault divorce law only has family court judges decree the divorce. Split of finances and assets, unless amicable, has to be done by a different process in a civil court. Civil courts do not know how to handle family matters and things can take forever. As in the UK here divorce can be done without financial/assets sorted and now tends to be.

With a MLCer this solves nothing. The important matters would not be sorted out.

No fault-divorce here only benefited those in the wrong and those who make, or have, more money than their spouse.

Alimony for life is also gone, as are several other protections the fault divorce law had for a spouse who is not responsible for the end of the marriage.

People who agree to divorce go for amicable divorce, that is what 95% of those who divorce here do. Of the remaining 5%, the ones who reach court, most are domestic violence cases and several of the 5% who reach court end up being dealt off court.

I also found it very annoying that the comment was about the no fault allowed people to move on with their lives quicker. I would guess that most of those that made that comment have never faced marital break up especially with children.  Certainly the MP that was interviewed all over the BBC has been married solidly for years.....

I found that comment totally annoying. As I had found similar ones here at the time no-fault was introduced. Here no-fault become a thing because the party that was in government at the time needed the support of a smaller party and that smaller, urban elite of very well-off people totally detached of the country's reality wanted no-fault. It was a political trade-off. Our by then President warned against it, so did judges and lawyers.

I just wish that there was a mandatory period of counselling and pre-marital advice to help young couples and those who are on second or third marriages to really understand each other and know why they are getting married (other than being "in lurve")

I agree. That is one thing I always thought was missing for most couples. Mr J and I had dated for 10 years before we married and lived together for three. We had a sound idea of how life was even in our late teens - our letters to each other show it -, but I think we would had benefit of pre-marital advice. Also, of marital support throught the marriage. Not that we faced major problems and we knew marriages and long term relationships had bumps, etc.

My younger sister is getting married in June. It is a big mistake. Of course she listens to no one.

I am disgusted by the concept sold that this will make breakups have less conflict. This is an insult to those of us going through it.

Like Song pointed, there will not be less conflict. It is going to be worst and people are going to feel even more hurt.

As long as it's easy and painless for a cheater/abuser to divorce and dump their spouse, family,  then there is no deterrent.

No there isn't. I think in abuse cases it may be a bit different if I understood the UK idea, but not sure.

I have said it before, marriage is dangerous, especially for women who give up their careers for their husbands or to raise the family. They then are dumped at middle age with no means to support themselves, no pension, no chance to rebuild a future.

It is. Very dangerous. But it was not when Mr J and I got married. Cheating had a high cost, alimony for life existed, 75% of the cheater personal property with be for the other spouse, etc. That is I should had divorce Mr J as soon as OW1 was made public. At the time, the law favoured me.

Of course there is no way of knowing if Mr J was going to pay and gave me 75% of his private property. We may still be where we are, but if the case had been opened under the old divorce law it had to be ruled under the old divorce law. Or so I think. With laws and lawyers, who knows.

MIL has alimony for life and didn't lost a single asset with divorce.

Still, probably the UK parliament is not able to pass the law right now. All they seem to have time for is the never ending saga of Brexit.  ::) Who knows, they may find time and go ahead with it pretty quickly.
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#102: April 11, 2019, 02:01:07 AM
Quote
Facebook age'
However, John (not his real name), from Kent, said it felt like now was a time of "disposable marriages for the disposable age".

John, who was divorced by his wife after a marriage more than two decades long, says: "We are devaluing marriage to the point where frankly what's the point of getting married in the first place? 'Hmmm. Woke up unhappy this morning, bored with family life. Fill out a form and junk my family - they'll get over it'.

"Fantastic - it's a divorce system for the Facebook age of instant gratification.

"What happened to for richer for poorer, for better for worse, in sickness and in health, till death do us part?"

This from BBC website.  Spot on comments!
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#103: April 11, 2019, 02:32:19 AM
Quote
Facebook age'
However, John (not his real name), from Kent, said it felt like now was a time of "disposable marriages for the disposable age".

John, who was divorced by his wife after a marriage more than two decades long, says: "We are devaluing marriage to the point where frankly what's the point of getting married in the first place? 'Hmmm. Woke up unhappy this morning, bored with family life. Fill out a form and junk my family - they'll get over it'.

"Fantastic - it's a divorce system for the Facebook age of instant gratification.

"What happened to for richer for poorer, for better for worse, in sickness and in health, till death do us part?"

This from BBC website.  Spot on comments!
Yep, spot on..
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H - 46 (40 @BD1)
M - 46 (40 @BD1)
Together 15 years, M 8 @separation
No kids
BD1 - 26th Aug 2017 (Not happy, life has no purpose)
BD2 - 22nd March 2018 (Marriage is over, we want different things, confessed EA with someone 12,000 kms away although "she means nothing")
H moved in with parents 11th May 2018 (I asked him to leave as couldn't handle the EA rubbed all over my face)
H moved abroad 29th Dec 2018, not sure if OW will join him or if they are still in contact.
Confirmation H and OW are together, presume PA  - 3rd June 2019
H gets engaged with OW - Oct 2019
H "finally" asks for divorce - Aug 2020
H marries OW - March 2021.. We are not divorced!
Divorced - Dec 7th 2022

"One of the happiest moments in life is when you find the courage to let go of what you can’t change"

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#104: April 11, 2019, 12:00:52 PM
"Fantastic - it's a divorce system for the Facebook age of instant gratification.

Sort of. Even if here, when no fault-come, most who went for it had been married for decades. Here no-fault come to be December 2008, Facebook wasn't much, if a think, by then and those who had been married for decades at the time weren't into the internet or social media.

It was more like husbands and wives had been waiting for ages for divorce to become very easy in order to get divorce. Also, mostly for husbands, waiting until their cheating mean nothing and they no longer had to pay alimony for life.

Here being married does not mean much and people get married less and less. No point.

Besides, we have "união de facto". A couple that has lived together for two years can register their relationship and will pretty much have every right a married person has. There is no divorce, but there will be the need to share all assets acquired during the "união de facto", etc.

That is one of the reasons my mum does not understand why my younger sister is getting married. Legally, here, it no longer makes sense. The other reason is that her future husband is not such a great partner. I also don't know why my younger sister is getting married or why she decided to, all of a sudden, say she was getting married in June. Is she pregnant? Maybe. That still does not require marriage.

None of my other siblings is married, they have "união de facto", have kids, are buying a house together etc. They and many other Portuguese.

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#105: April 13, 2019, 03:38:03 AM
To be honest, if I were to get married again, I would want to have some kind of contract written up. Not very romantic, I know, but a cheating spouse should not be able to run off with a life time's worth of financial earnings and good job and leave the LBS with hardly anything or nothing. Maybe if the two spouses have to sign a legal contract stating that they will look after each other even if so and so happens, then the weak, crappy spouse might think twice before heading off to schmoopie land.
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#106: April 13, 2019, 03:28:59 PM
If I were to remarry I would also want some written contract/pre-nuptial agreement.

In the extremely odd case Mr J and I ever get back together he will have to sign documents/a contract. Not romantic, but necessary.

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#107: April 20, 2019, 06:45:30 AM
I came across this yesterday, sorry I wasn't able to upload the diagram as the site says it was "full". It has to do with addiction and the root causes which stem from abuse, physical, emotional, spiritual and sexual.

I know that many of our spouses have an addiction.

I also know that many of our spouses have been abused in their childhood.

I look at this tree, and somehow it is meaningful in context of a crisis...and reaffirms my belief that although the MLCer might "know" what he/she has done...it was not intentional and could not have been avoided due to life situations that they were exposed to and the coping mechanism that they needed to develop to survive.

https://www.facebook.com/TheCentreofHealing/photos/a.809254725863665/1463962643726200/?type=3&theater
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#108: April 20, 2019, 07:19:49 AM
What a mess the human species can be...
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W=47
D=8
BD Feb 17 Thinking of divorce
Atomic BD June 17 Spying revealed OM at work
Still home.  Threatened to leave several times and has asked me to leave about a dozen. 
Says divorce proceedings will start Jan 18.
She has scheduled mediation Feb 7,  2018
I moved out March 16, 2018
Several mediations, mostly instigated by me.  Foot dragging by STBXW.  Nothing filed. Yet.
5/2019 STBXW filed D behind my back despite signed agreement to mediate.
I retain attorney.
STBXW still hasn't told me and no further action.
Elephant in the room has been addressed.  No further action atm.  Weighing my options.
12/16/19  She files financial paperwork.  Divorce proceeding.

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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#109: April 20, 2019, 07:55:40 AM


here is the image, Xyzcf.

No one chooses to have a MLC, but in my view it can be avoided. MLC has to do with depression. They do know what they did and are doing. They just become addicted to the new MLC lifestyle and then it becomes complicated to stop. Or they like to have both the MLC life and the normal life, as some of them do.

When we see returning MLCers it is not that complicated for them to get back to normal.

There are some things missing on that tree, like depression that often leads to addiction. Pretty much all addicts are depressed people. Depression may not have to do with heriditary factors or abuse, it may come with divorce, death of a loved one, losing a job, etc. All those things can lead a person to drink, take drugs, etc.

Grief in on the tree, but gried and depression are different things.
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#110: April 20, 2019, 10:20:58 AM
Thanks anjae..I do believe this model is expanded on in other articles...but in it's simplicity it struck me.

I smoked for 17 years. 2 packs or more a day. Even though I knew it wasn't good for me, even though I wanted to quit, I kept on smoking.....it was an insight I had this morning..I wasn't a bad person because I smoked, but I got caught up into something that gave me pleasure.....it was so freeing when I finally quit and didn't have that chain around my neck.
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"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

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#111: April 20, 2019, 11:43:08 AM
You're welcome, Xyzcf. You would like me to try to find a more complex model?

2 packs or more a day for 17 years?  :o Wow, that is a lot.

The reason I first pick a neuroscience course was not MLC, it was smoking/addiction. When my cousin who had MLC hit rock bottom, he stayed here. So did his brother. Cousin who was not in MLC and I spoke a lot at dinner and one of the things we spoke about was his smoking, the fact I never smoked - even if I had tried a few cigarettes in my teens, 15 at most in some 5 years. Cousin said I was lucky because my brain did not had a tendency to addiction. We keep talking about addiction, depression, etc. and I found it interesting enough to wanted to know more.

I had already heardd of Coursera, so I found the Drugs and the Brain course, the first one I took.

What cousin had explained to me was that cigarettes calmed him down. For him, as for his mother, my aunt, it was more relaxing related than pleasure. My aunt's boyfriend still smokes, about 4 cigarettes a day and now only outside. For him it is both the direct nicotice addiction as well as the gestures, being on the computer and pulling out a cigarette. Since he now has to get up and go outside, he cut from 10 to 4/3 a day and is trying to reach 2, then zero.

Aunt should had stop smoking after her cancer. She didn't. Only stopped early last year, after her stroke. She does not have the addiction since her mood suffered no change, it was just an habit (OK, an habit can be an addiction).
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#112: April 20, 2019, 11:52:25 AM
 
Quote
You would like me to try to find a more complex model?

Sure if you can....so many MLCers have some sort of addiction.

I do believe that addictions can be hereditary. In my family, alcohol was a problem especially for the men. I think I could have an "addictive personality" ..I think many people do.

I am glad I finally quit...(replaced by an addiction to chocolate!)

On the model that you posted...the word that jumps out at me, quit intensely really is SHAME. I think my husband has a great deal of shame about many things..it is all part of the million pieces puzzle that we try and put the pieces together to get a better picture.

I think I remember a discussion thread about addictions. I'll couldn't find it ...my bad.
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« Last Edit: April 20, 2019, 12:08:15 PM by xyzcf »
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#113: April 20, 2019, 03:03:25 PM



This one is a little different, but it does not show the roots like the other one.

Can addiction be hereditary? Would say so.

In a way, everyone has an "addictive personality". It is probably part of being human. Most "addictions" are harmless, both in terms of health and money. 





posting the other way so that together they provide a better idea of the roots + fruits of addiction.
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« Last Edit: April 20, 2019, 03:39:42 PM by Anjae »
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#114: April 20, 2019, 03:29:40 PM
Thanks Anjae.

I had seen this diagram as well but the other version shows the roots of addiction as being loneliness, fear, shame, grief, anger, hereditary and the soil of addiction being physical abuse, spiritual abuse, sexual abuse, emotional abuse. Because I see the "soil" factors so often in the children I work with, I do understand how they may have a difficult adulthood...not all for sure, byut many never get over their childhood trauma.

Their ACE score (adverse childhood experience)

 https://acestoohigh.com/got-your-ace-score/

predisposes them to many problems later in life...and the problem is, by the time they enter into social services, they generally have been exposed to so much trauma that is it difficult to reverse the damage.

In the tree you posted, we can all recognize that we all have several "addictions"....it is when those addictions become severe or more intense (for example Mr. xyzcf's extreme work life) that there starts to be issues.

Thanks  Anjae
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« Last Edit: April 20, 2019, 03:30:59 PM by xyzcf »
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

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#115: April 20, 2019, 03:57:03 PM
I posted the other tree below the new one so that it become easier to see both.

My reply to the questions on the test are 0 pr 1 for the Ace (my parents were separated because of the colonial war, so were the parents of may during the war years, 1961-1974) not sure if it counts as a normal separation  and 14 for "Definitely true" on the resilience test, which I believe to be very good.

My maternal grandmother killed himself, but that was years before I was born, not during my childhood.

Things changed for me when I was about to be 14, not when I was a child.
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#116: April 27, 2019, 06:08:47 AM
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/blame-my-brain-killer-s-bold-defense-gets-court-hearing-n998676

Slightly off topic except it talks about genetic factors that could lead to violent behavior...as science continues to add to it's body of knowledge, we learn more and more about the brain and how many factors are involved in behavior.
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"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#117: April 27, 2019, 06:29:26 AM
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/blame-my-brain-killer-s-bold-defense-gets-court-hearing-n998676

Slightly off topic except it talks about genetic factors that could lead to violent behavior...as science continues to add to it's body of knowledge, we learn more and more about the brain and how many factors are involved in behavior.
Thats interesting, not sure what I think but since I now have 3 genetics courses under my belt in the last few years it is a topic that I find relevant.
I still only know enough about genetics to be dangerous, and am not confidant in anything
I might say.
Very complex subject that I am not sure can be used in court like they tried to do.
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#118: April 27, 2019, 07:39:10 AM
I am even more blown away OP by the field of epigenetics which with my rather limited understanding, shows how trauma can change an ancestor's DNA and that the memories of that trauma is passed along to the offspring, several generations forward.

Kind of scary but also very fascinating. Could my own response to trauma be imbedded by my father's PTSD? Is that why some LBSers handle this differently than others?

I don't think science will ever unravel all the mysteries of the human body or mind.
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"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#119: April 27, 2019, 07:56:33 AM
I am even more blown away OP by the field of epigenetics which with my rather limited understanding, shows how trauma can change an ancestor's DNA and that the memories of that trauma is passed along to the offspring, several generations forward.

Kind of scary but also very fascinating. Could my own response to trauma be imbedded by my father's PTSD? Is that why some LBSers handle this differently than others?

I don't think science will ever unravel all the mysteries of the human body or mind.
So epigentics is when one piece of DNA is answered yes or no then something happens or not depending on the yes or no logic.
Kind of like a computer If then statement.
So it also kind of works with cells, they live so long and then they die and the cell replicates.
Cancer happens because this logic gets messed up and the cell replicates rather than die.
So in computer logic its all 1 or zeros and if a place gets messed up = havoc.

SO a long winded explanation which is that - maybe it is in your DNA - or maybe it is from nature vs nurture, your father passed it on to you through nurture not DNA.
I have no clue.
However it is fascinating I agree.

I am now third generation of divorced men in my family and that took a lot for me to get over.
However good news was that my father and grandfather died still married just not to their original mates.

I just hope our children - my two and your one can stay happily married for a lifetime.

That is my wish for them.
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#120: April 27, 2019, 10:44:38 AM
Not that I have studied the articles but this is the exact conversation I had with S only yesterday.

He actually said that he felt his DNA was changing as a result of H's unresolved trauma.  We had a discussion about the impact of trauma on the mental development and therefore chemistry of the brain as a by product.  I had no idea that it might actually be a real thing!!

Need to read them now!!
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#121: April 27, 2019, 01:22:44 PM
Genetic factors can lead to violent behaviour, but from what I recall from genetics and neuroscience courses, it does not mean they will.

The “warrior gene" was mentioned and studied in the courses, it was also said most whof have it do not have a hight propensity for violence. If I am not mistaken, the "warrior gene" is more prevalent amont European men, yet, they are not more violent than other men.

Our genes alter with ambient, therefore, having the "warrior gene" alone may not mean a thing and it mostly certainly does not.

Genes also change with trauma, etc. but, again, it will all depend of a series of several factors. It is not so cut and dry. The brain also changes with a lot of things.

Both genes and brain can re-change.

If genetics and neuroscience start to be used to let criminals get away, society is in serious troubles. I suspect it has more to do with clever lawyers than genetics or neuroscience.
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#122: April 27, 2019, 09:13:46 PM
Hi, even if I don't post much these days, I do read and try to keep myself updated with everyone. I'm almost 5 years from BD, I've been NC all this time, so I don't have much update on "my mlc'r" only contact is mail from mediator and/or what I hear from other people (but I'm not that interested cause "my" xh has to be one of the worst cases of monsters and he will have to take down the moon for me to have any interactions what so ever with him for the rest of my life  8) Anyway

Here is 2 great sources I use to listen to, both psychologists.

This one, American, (in his latest video) describes the relationship between a "MLC'r and OW/OM" (when they show strong npd/aspd and bpd symptoms or has these personality disorders)

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCC_0vyFTKk1Nlodo4QsiQkw

This one, from Sidney Australia I think, describes, both liminality and/or why or why not "they" enter or not enter "the tunnel" (as we say). He calls it self-transformation but do use the word "liminality" also.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_P8aFACl-VqJl0flQPGMQQ/videos

I found both of them easy to understand.

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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#123: April 28, 2019, 12:15:34 AM
Hi Passiflora,

Could you please post the name of the video in the second link - when I clicked it went to a whole collection of videos (which do all  sound like interesting topics) but I wanted to start with the one you mentioned about liminality and the tunnel...

Thank you for posting these :)
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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#124: April 28, 2019, 12:59:52 AM
Hi Evergreen,
you can listen to all that has "self-transformation" in the subject.

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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#125: July 16, 2019, 02:52:21 PM
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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#126: July 17, 2019, 12:31:58 PM
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BD1 - 26th Aug 2017 (Not happy, life has no purpose)
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H moved in with parents 11th May 2018 (I asked him to leave as couldn't handle the EA rubbed all over my face)
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Confirmation H and OW are together, presume PA  - 3rd June 2019
H gets engaged with OW - Oct 2019
H "finally" asks for divorce - Aug 2020
H marries OW - March 2021.. We are not divorced!
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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#127: July 23, 2019, 03:21:13 AM
Just found this - of course some or most of you may have already read it.

Still useful for those moments of doubt.....
https://www.drwaynedyer.com/blog/how-to-forgive-someone-in-15-steps/
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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#128: September 10, 2019, 05:00:21 AM
Not my situation and not an entirely easy listen https://soundcloud.com/affairhealing/recoveryroom107 but maybe a worthwhile one for those of you with kids especially teenagers? The two kids here now adults are reflecting back on their memories from I think about 20 years before. It is interesting how they and their father have different memories. They have some useful things to say about their experience and what helps/hinders. And if as an LBS you didn't take to your bed for a couple of years or involve your children in hiding behind bushes to snoop...then you've already done good lol  :)
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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#129: September 14, 2019, 12:47:37 PM
Barbiedoll posted this very good article on her thread:

https://www.vincegowmon.com/sacrificing-authenticity-for-attachment/
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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#131: September 22, 2019, 11:39:49 PM
Has anyone else noticed how Thought Feeling and Activity on Anjae’s tree holds so true with many MLCers? Many of yours undoubtedly have all plus the FOO roots. Fascinating stuff. Even if they don’t have “the addiction gene” your patterns can be engrained as is the discussion about smoking. My MLCer is looking at his own behaviors now that he is taking meds for ADHD. It is giving him a mirror. He was never addicted and does not seem to have that either. It still does not excuse anything. Only that it puts some of his behavior in perspective.
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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#132: September 23, 2019, 12:00:12 AM
MyBrain the C-PTSD is especially interesting in children although it is more commonly seen as Detachment Trauma Disorder is fascinating. My S15 still suffers detachment from his father (not MLC) and step-dad (MLC). Too much abandonment. His dad abandoned him by being abusive and then not being able to take care of himself. Them MLC H booted us like a worn shoe. S15 panics if I leave the house overnight and misses school as a result. He needs me and has little ways of showing me that he needs to connect at home. He overly exercises and virtually starved himself almost as punishment in a way to set himself apart from his peers. Sad. I would not be surprised if a lot us have kids who are DTD and will need a lot of therapy. Once we can get them there.
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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#133: September 23, 2019, 09:42:57 AM
That's not very encouraging MBIB. Even if my H were to figure out he has CPTSD, we don't live anywhere near where there would be any sort of appropriate therapy available.  :(

It would be nice to hear about some MLCers who managed to get through it WITHOUT therapy. There have to be some.
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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#134: September 23, 2019, 12:02:21 PM
That's not very encouraging MBIB.

I agree. It wasn't meant to be encouraging but I thought it might be enlightening for those who wonder why MLC takes so long. I've been in therapy for childhood trauma, abuse, and neglect for almost five years and still am not ready to start EMDR. We may be starting sometime in the next couple of months, once I'm stable enough to be able to tolerate it. And it will probably take quite a while longer, even after EMDR starts, because there are a lot of layers to work through, although I hope that I'm wrong and it goes quickly.
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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#135: September 23, 2019, 03:10:00 PM
Nice to see you, Brain x

Fwiw as only my experience, EMDR works like a snowball. Starts slow and then gathers speed without you consciously trying to make it do so. In a good way. Bc your brain keeps doings its thing between sessions, I found that there was a sort of washing machine effect at the back of my brain which would occasionally throw out some random stuff but again in a good way...the first session was the toughest and every one after that was a bit easier and moved me forward in bigger steps than the last. Took a few months but in my case EMDR was like a strange magic  ;)
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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#136: September 23, 2019, 03:20:16 PM
No shortage of proper professional help here, both national health sercive and private.

However, here things are seen a little differently than in the US, including how to approach subjects, duration of treatments, even diagnosis itself.

It would be nice to hear about some MLCers who managed to get through it WITHOUT therapy. There have to be some.

Many, if not most MLCers manage it without therapy. MLCers do not tend to be diagnosed with PTSD or C-PTDS. MLC tends to self-resolve.

Usually, PTSD or C-PTSD is not the reason why MLC takes so long. Very few on HS have a MLCer that was diagnosed with PTSD or C-PTSD. I don't know a single real life MLCer diagnosed with one or the other.

If anything, going by HS, it is the LBS that end ups diagnosed with PTSD or C-PTSD.

Where did the idea that MLCers have PTSD/C-PTSD come from? Going around the threads we don't tend to read the MLCer was diagnosed with PTS/C-PTS, including those who have been seen by professionals.

I doubt all MLCers have C-PTSD or even PTDS. Many, if not most, of them become fine on their own after Liminality.

It wasn't meant to be encouraging but I thought it might be enlightening for those who wonder why MLC takes so long. I've been in therapy for childhood trauma, abuse, and neglect for almost five years and still am not ready to start EMDR.

You have. It does not mean MLCers suffer from the same issues you suffer or need the same things you do or if they do that it will take them as long as it is taking you.

What is not encouraging is going back to pass diagnoses to people who were never diagnosed with issue A or B or carry thinking that because it is what have others, including MLCers, must also have.

Ruby, having or not having the "addiction gene" in itself does not mean someone will be an addict. A higher percentage of Europeans have the war gene. We are as much, or as little, beligerant as others. The gene in itself does not lead to higher levels of agression.

FOO issues alone cannot be the sole root of MLC. Many people with FOO issues never have a MLC. Even what I have managed to observe all MLCers have, anxiety, stress and depression cannot be the root. Many people have those things and never have a MLC. Those three things will lead to the type of thinking and actions we see in MLCers, but why do those things only lead some into MLC?

Of those with anxiety, stress and depression that never have a MLC many have serious FOO issues as well.

As far as I know, no one really knows exactly what drives one person, and not another, into MLC. I think anxiety, stress and depression may have a certain effect in some people at a point in their lives they do not have on others. But exactly why? I don't know.
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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#137: September 23, 2019, 05:35:31 PM
Thank you for sharing the information about C-PTSD and PTSD and it is good to see you post!

Anything that we can learn about the human brain and how it functions is very welcomed.

In my view, many MLCers especially women have had abusive childhoods including sexual abuse and possibly many men as well who don't  "report" the way women may.

In studying MLC, I see quite clearly the connection between childhood trauma and the development of a crisis later in life.

So thanks again. No one person's view is the only way to see the crisis and I am grateful when people share what they have learned with the rest of the forum.
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« Last Edit: September 23, 2019, 05:57:22 PM by xyzcf »
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#138: September 23, 2019, 05:51:30 PM
I agree MB, thank you for sharing the information about C-PTSD and PTSD.

Anything that we can learn about the human brain and how it functions is very welcomed.
 :)
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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#139: September 23, 2019, 06:33:55 PM
Thank you for sharing the information about C-PTSD and PTSD and it is good to see you post!

It is. However, MLCers do not tend to be diagnosed with PTSD or C-PTSD, LBS get diagnosed with PTSD. What is the medical and neurological explanation for it?

As a general rule, neuroscientists and neurobiologists do not appoach matters the same way therapists or many psychiatrist do. Brain is talking from the perspective of therapy.

In studying MLC, I see quite clearly the connection between childhood trauma and the development of a crisis later in life.

Interesting. I haven't. I know many people that had serious, and I mean serious, childhood issues and never had a MLC. And I also know MLCers that have happy, abuse free childhoods.

In my view, many MLCers especially women have had abusive childhoods including sexual abuse and possibly many men as well who don't  "report" the way women may.

Do female MLCers, or for that matter, male ones, tend to say they had an abusive childhood, including sexual abuse? I do not see it on the threads, and I do not see it in real life. We have several former MCLers on HS and that is not the idea I have from reading their threads.

Aren't we jumping to conclusions? What proof it there that many, or most MLCers were abused as children, including sexually?

Some MLCers were abused as children, including sexually? Most certainly. But many, or most? In what do you base your theory, Xyzcf? How many here have an MLCer that was sexually abused as a child?


As for dissociative disorder. It is a controversial disorder in which many therapist and psychiatrist do not believe, including many American ones. They think it is a illness fabricated by the therapist that leads the patient to believe they have multiple personalities. There are ample serious studies and papers on the matter that can be easily find with a Google search.



You guys are going to have to forgive me, but therapists points of view, and even psychiatrists points of view, don't mean much to me. They tend to be based in peculiar theories and bizarre concepts that cannot be proved. Freud, and even Jung, are totally discredit here and do not tend to be used as medical refences anymore.

Most concepst we talk about, including projection, come from the Freuds (projection is an Anna Freud, Sigmund's daughter, theory) and the Jungs, not from neuroscience/neurobiology, that is, from those who study the brain.

So, exactly where is anything truly brain, as in neuroscience/neurobiology related in what Brain post, considering dissociative disorder is not even accepted as such by many therapists and psychiatrist - neuroscientists and neurobiolgists don't tend to go there.

I would appreciate, concrete, palpable, neuroscionce/neurobiology answers, not unprovable psychology theories/ideas.

In my view there is often a huge confusion between real neuroscience/neurobiology and psychology/psychiatry and the way they function. Also how the second influences the first, when it tends to be the other way round. It tends to be brain (that are also body) issues that influence behaviours, thoughts, etc.

Of course, deep in depression, the skewed thoughts caused by depression keep influencing the person, but the reason is the depression. Same with addiction/alcoholism.

In neuroscience news, scientists have found that an hormone may be related to hypersexuality/sexual addiction (the hormone is oxytocin): https://neurosciencenews.com/hypersexual-disorder-hormone-14962/

Who is to say, hormones, or other chemicals and/or brain functions aren't behind MLC?


P.S.: Even if one considers, or accepts, abuse, including sexual one, in childhood leads to MLC, why many that are abused as children, including sexually do not have a MLC? What is/are the difference/diferences?
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« Last Edit: September 23, 2019, 06:45:46 PM by Anjae »
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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#140: September 23, 2019, 06:47:27 PM
I will not argue with you Anjae.

I have as much education, knowledge and experience to base my observations on as you do or any other member of HS.

I have stated my views.

You do not have to keep pointing out that you think I am wrong, as you do to so many other posters.

I actually do know  personally male LBSers whose wives have been severely sexually abused as children.

This thread is not a DEBATE thread. It is for members to share information that they think other HS members would find useful.

Stop turning everything into an "I know better than you" drama.
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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#141: September 23, 2019, 07:04:17 PM
I have as much education, knowledge and experience to base my observations on as you do or any other member of HS.

Indeed. That is why I asked you. If you are presenting your ideas, you surely have how to back them up.


You do not have to keep pointing out that you think I am wrong, as you do to so many other posters

I didn't say you were wrong. I asked for backup on your ideas. I tend to supply back up on why I think something is the way I do.

I actually do know  personally male LBSers whose wives have been severely sexually abused as children.

I said on my post some MLCers were certainly abused, including sexually. It does not mean all, or most, MLCers were. Many people were sexually abused and never had a MLC. Why?

Why is it so hard to answer why and thinking which is the reason, or reasons that lead some that are abused to have a MLC and many that are abused not to have a MLC?

I certainly do not know better, but I tend to present facts, evidence and use neuroscience/neurobiology. If people are going to claim MLCers were abused as children, including sexually, I think it would be a good idea to be able to back it up with something palpable.

Otherwise, it is saying MLCers, and that includes myself, Mr J, my cousin that had MLC, my aunt that had MLC, all the real life MLCers I know, all the MLCers of every LBS on HS were abused, maybe even sexually, even if they were not.

I really would like people to answer instead of becoming defensive.

As indicated by the white balloon with the word discussion, this is a discussion thread. Or a green icon one, since both icons are on the thread. In any case, we have always discussed on this links/blogs/articles threads as well as on discussion and green icon threads.

Why is it that of late we cannot discuss and debate and people bring up ideas, even certainties, and then do not answer when asked about them?

You surely understand how upsetting it is to have people saying MLCers are all abused people when one is a former MLCer and no such thing happened.

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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#142: September 23, 2019, 07:14:35 PM
I have NEVER said that all MLCers are abused people. The evidence of so many stories here does indicate that there are some childhood issues.

I base my theory on Eric Erickson's 8 stages of psychosocial development.

You don't discuss, you started by telling MBIB basically that his posts don't apply to MLC.

We share information and as I have previous stated we have vastly different ideas about MLC.

As I said, I will not argue with you.
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« Last Edit: September 23, 2019, 07:17:25 PM by xyzcf »
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#143: September 23, 2019, 07:44:30 PM
Everyone has childhood issues. It still does not explain why some have a MLC and others don't.

Maybe you haven't exactly claim all MLCers have been abused, but writting things like MLCer are abused people is more or less the same, isn't it?

And Brain does it a lot. He says MLCers are abused people. Not some, or a few MLCers.

You don't discuss, you started by telling MBIB basically that his posts don't apply to MLC.

I did. And I stand by it. MLCers do not tend to be diagnosed with PTSD or C-PTSD, not even those who have been seen my a professional and they surely do not tend to be diagnosed with dissociative disorder (a very rare controversial diagnose for the reason I have previously explained).

If you read the threads, as I am certain you have, you know MLCers tend to be diagnosed with depression or bipolar. And that there are several LBS that were diagnosed with PTSD. It does not mean a few MLCers aren't diagnosed with PTDS or C-PTSD, but some is not most or all.

It wasn't meant to be encouraging but I thought it might be enlightening for those who wonder why MLC takes so long.

I don't know what this means to you/how do you read it. But after Brain's post with the image, to me it reads as the explanation for why MLC takes so long is PTSD/C-PTSD or dissociative disorder, even if most MLCers are not diagnosed with those issues.

If most MLCers are not diagnosed with such issues, does it make sense to claim those are the reasons why MLC takes so long? I would say it does not.

I pointed the fact out, I would expect Brain would debate the matter/explain/supply further information or back up for the afirmation.

I am not the one posting PTSD/C-PTSD or dissociative disorder is the reason why MLC takes so long. How does Brain knows? Does he has our MLCers diagnoses? Does he has the diagnoses or former MLCer, mine and my cousin's ones included -I was diagnosed with situational depression, my cousin with depression, schozophrenia, borderline, bipolar, psychosis, but never with PTSD, PTSD or dissociative disorder.

Depression aside, my cousin had none of those things. Threrapists and doctors simply did not recognise MLC. He has been fine for years and back to normal.

Same for claiming MLCers are abused people. A thing, as I said, Brain does a lot and has done over the years. With what proof?

Why does Brain uses his diagnose and how much it has taken him and applies it to others, as he did on reply #134? Our MLCers aren't Brain. They do not have his issues.

No one, not even the worlds's best neuroscientist/neurobiolgist/therapist/psychiatrist knows what causes MLC and why, for some, it takes so long. Someone posting the certainty of why MLC takes so long seems odd.
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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#144: September 23, 2019, 08:17:27 PM
Quote
MLCers do not tend to be diagnosed with PTSD or C-PTSD,
.

Do you have stats or evidence that this has been proven ? Or where you got this information from?  Is this factual or just your opinion based on your own observations?  Just curious.
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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#145: September 23, 2019, 09:09:44 PM
I have HS threads since its start (thousands), thousands of threads on other MLC forums and real life.

Most people don't tend to say their MLCer have been diagnosed with PTSD/C-PTSD or dissociative disorder and I do not know any real life former or current MLCer (and I know dozens) who was.

I am certain someone/a few on HS has a MLCer that was diagnosed with PTSD/C-PTSD, but that is not what LBS tend to say their MLCer was diagnosed with, if they were diagnosed, something.

Not all MLCers have diagnoses. I am talking about professional diagnoses, not what we thing it may be/they may have.

There are several LBS that were diagnosed with PTSD/C-PTSD, Treasur being one of them.

No one has any stats concerning any aspec of MLC. But we have thousands of threads  (and not only on HS) and real life experience.

I would say that is more than enough considering many books and articles about MLC were written based on a sample of one and no one seems to question or be upset with it.

On the other hand, it is profundly disturbing to claim MLCers, not most, or some, have been abused, including sexually, or suffer from this or that, even those who have been professionally diagnosed with something else or have no diagnose at all.
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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#146: September 23, 2019, 10:18:01 PM
Just for the record, regarding childhood abuse, my wife and I have both been going through what most on here would consider an MLC and I have good reason to believe both of us experienced childhood sexual abuse. That doesn't mean it's a causative relationship but I believe in my case that it is.

Treasur, my therapist and I were discussing earlier today how EMDR often produces residual benefits like you described. I did have two EMDR sessions with my first trauma therapist. After the first session ended I experienced rapid fire memories from my childhood occurring for well over an hour afterwards. It was very strange and I don't remember any of them but he told me that those memories were all being processed and stored as an after effect of the EMDR session.

Then my second EMDR session with my first therapist blew up and I wound up having a 30 minute out of body dissociative experience. Eventually, we learned that I have a form of dissociative identity disorder called OSDD Type 1b and she referred me to my current therapist. He specializes in treating patients with dissociative identity disorders.

I've learned from him that traditional therapy doesn't work for me because I have dissociated parts and these parts have to be included in the treatment. It's a little more complicated than treating PTSD. These parts each hold part of the trauma so treatment doesn't work if the traumatized parts aren't included. We've identified 8 dissociated parts and he has a treatment plan for each of them. Four of my parts are 6 years old or younger, 1 is 22 years old, and the rest don't have an identifiable age.

Sorry if I started something controversial. I'm just trying to share my experience. I've been through an MLC, I've experienced the fog, in fact I continue to occasionally experience the fog, and I've been diagnosed, am being treated, and I think I'm making progress. I believe my wife would receive a similar diagnosis but she hasn't seen anyone for treatment and she doesn't appear to be making any progress but she did bring me some cookies today. :)

BTW, I don't see Anjae's posts because I have her blocked but, regarding the sentence she wrote that Barbie quoted about MLCers not being diagnosed with PTSD or C-PTSD, I have to agree with Anjae for two reasons.

First, MLCers rarely seek treatment, generally preferring to self-medicate, so they are rarely diagnosed with anything.

Second, most therapists aren't qualified to diagnose and treat even relatively simple trauma related disorders like PTSD, much less complicated disorders like C-PTSD, OSDD, and DID. I'm very fortunate to be seeing the top two trauma therapists in my region. Both are teaching faculty and most of the trauma therapists in my region have been taught by them. Even so, my first therapist referred me to the man I'm seeing now because my case is so complex. His specialty is internal family systems therapy. Google it. It's very interesting. He's writing a book about applying IFS therapy to dissociative disorder treatment. Maybe I'll be in it. :D

You don't discuss, you started by telling MBIB basically that his posts don't apply to MLC.

This is part of XYZ's response to one of Anjae's posts. I'm referencing it to illustrate why I have blocked Anjae's posts. I seldom find anything worthwhile in Anjae's posts. Life's too short to spend reading posts that bring nothing interesting to the table. I hope that anyone who feels my posts don't apply to MLC will take advantage of their ability to block my posts.

Speaking of short, I have a class to teach in less than 7 hours so I guess I'd better wrap this up. Goodnight to everyone from all of my little parts. We're all going to bed now, even the part that's afraid to go to bed. :o
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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#147: September 23, 2019, 11:26:07 PM
Apparently there is a school of neuroscience looking at the relationship between developmental trauma, the brain and psychotherapy. https://www.psychotherapy.net/interview/allan-schore-neuroscience-psychotherapy and https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/2016/may/why-bad-experiences-are-remembered-out-context
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T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.


"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#148: September 24, 2019, 04:16:07 AM
FOO issues alone cannot be the sole root of MLC. Many people with FOO issues never have a MLC. Even what I have managed to observe all MLCers have, anxiety, stress and depression cannot be the root. Many people have those things and never have a MLC. Those three things will lead to the type of thinking and actions we see in MLCers, but why do those things only lead some into MLC?

Because the environment acts upon inborn temperament, which differs in each of us.  Or there may be mitigating factors such as a grandparent or mentor who helps ‘right the boat.’

Anjae I think you are right to be cautious about therapy because, as described by my therapist, it is like a pyramid scam - swamped at the bottom with inadequate practitioner, with the better concentrated higher up.  Nevertheless, there is plenty of evidence that it works.

As for Freud - well he is not obsolete.  He died almost 100 years ago so his ideas are developed and superseded in some cases , but the UK NHS spends millions of its scarce resources on training therapists in Psychodynamic techniques which are still based very firmly on Freudian ideas.  His followers developed Object relations theory which is the basis of attachment theory.  Now developments in neuroscience are being integrated and the most famous practitioners of psychoanalysis and attachment combined with neuroscience are Alan Schore  at hospital of UC LA and Peter Fonagy, professor at University College London and Directornof the Anna Freud centre.

Mlc people aren’t being diagnosed with c ptsd because they aren’t presented to be diagnosed.  And if there were then maybe not to the right calibre of therapist.  Some
May well have it.  And there is no way of knowing what kind of childhood anyone had in reality because we aren’t present for the minutiae of day to day life.  Not would
Most of us recognise misattuned parenting if we did. Parents don’t have to be a usive to cause damage.
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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#149: September 24, 2019, 05:53:56 AM
Such a pity. I was reading this with great interest until the last couple of paragraphs from Brain. And wondered whether this
was his 6 yr old child posting.
You sounded rather superior Brain, and dismissive and unkind, in your dig towards Anjae. Ring a bell? Happy people don't feel the need to say things like that. Simple. So you've blocked Anjae because she seldom says anything worthwhile, yet here you are in agreement with her?
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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#150: September 24, 2019, 10:59:07 AM
I could have sworn I posted a poll on here at some point, but maybe someone else did it on my behalf? But I am sure there was one. The question being whether the MLCer had suffered childhood abuse. If I recall correctly, almost 80% of LBSes who responded to the survey said their spouses had suffered childhood abuse. Remember, that is just LBSes who are aware of the abuse. I seem to recall reading something on the Blueknot site that on average, someone who suffers sexual abuse as a child doesn't tell anyone for 30 years. So it is highly likely that the number is higher than 80% because there simply are those whose spouses haven't told them they were abused.

I know for sure that my FIL physically abused my H. Abuse is almost too mild a word as some of what he did really constitutes torture. On top of that he was very controlling of my H's activities. I strongly suspect verbal abuse as well. My H told me when we were first married he was never happy a single day as a child.

Of course most MLCers aren't diagnosed with CPTSD. 1-Because they would need to go to a psychiatrist first, 2-it is a newly recognized illness in the past couple years, 3-Since MLC is not a diagnosed illness itself, how do we know if MLCers have CPTSD?, 4-Even if an MLCer goes to a psychiatrist and gets a diagnosis, they are under on obligation to tell the LBS this. So saying that MLCers aren't diagnosed with CPTSD means nothing.

I have to agree with Brain. I will be happy to discuss this matter with anyone who uses proper logic, but if anyone uses red herrings like the above one about MLCers not being diagnosed with CPTSD, I will not respond. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I am not interested in opinions, I'm interested only in something that will lead to better knowledge of MLC. No debates for the sake of debating for me. I have more important things to deal with in my life right now.
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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#151: September 24, 2019, 11:12:09 AM
I remember a segment from a talk by Bessel van der Kolk. He believes that trauma is an underlying cause of a lot of addiction and mental health issues in society with all their concomitant costs. He tells a story about seeing a 5 year old boy on a bike while the father screamed at him. And how the child didn't react, just kept riding. Bc in his world that was normal. So he had learned to repress the normal human emotional reactions if someone big gets in your face and screams at you. For a 5 year old it was a survival skill, for a 35 year old that numbing of emotional effect as a way to live....not so good

It probably changes little about our spouses path, but it can help us hold compassion for the damaged children that most of our spouses grew from. Not all perhaps but probably most. I know that was true for my xh. Doesn't mean we excuse abuse by these children in grown up bodies, doesn't even mean we don't need to protect ourselves to the point of walking away. But we can still have compassion with a warm heart but a clear head.
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T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.


"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#152: September 24, 2019, 11:31:24 AM
Does anyone want to start a new Discussion thread for these subjects?
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A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

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Re: Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 7
#153: September 24, 2019, 12:11:43 PM
Does anyone want to start a new Discussion thread for these subjects?

Done. Please be so kind to lock this thread. Thank you.


New thread: https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11123.0
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Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

 

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