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Author Topic: Discussion The Eyes Have It

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Discussion The Eyes Have It
OP: March 26, 2017, 05:33:31 PM
Been noticing that we all seem to see that the eyes of our MLC spouse are 'vacant'.  There seems to be something missing from them.  Almost dead.  No matter what or where the picture is from.

So, anyone not have vacant MLC spouse?

When have you noticed the vacancy go away?

Hopefully this is not a thread that has already been started.
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I learned that courage was not the absence of fear, but the triumph over it. The brave man is not he who does not feel afraid, but he who conquers that fear — Nelson Mandela

I never lose.  I either win or learn! - Nelson Mandela

For we have fallen from our shelves, To face the truth about ourselves.  "The Gift", Annie Lennox

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Re: The Eyes Have It
#1: March 26, 2017, 05:40:20 PM
My xh's were lit up like Christmas lights.  It looked like he ate straight coffee grounds and washed them down with a Monster energy drink.  He's definitely high on something at times.  Must be love.  lol
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Re: The Eyes Have It
#2: March 26, 2017, 06:29:53 PM
I can tell what kind of night we will have just by looking at his eyes. It's is crazy and scarey!!
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M 40
H 41
He moved out May 21,2017
Ow 41( his 1st cousin) moved her in May 23, 2017, she went back to her husband Oct 2017
Ow moved back with her 2 kids Jan 1 2018 even with courts cutting his visitation with his kids because of it
Ow moved out again Dec 2019 and is back with her husband Jan 2020
T-19 yr M-14 yrs
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BD  February 12 2017 & April 22 2017 (signs of MLC since 2015)
I filed for divorce June 2 2017 for protection- final hearing on our 20th anniversary (July 11,2018) divorce was final August 9, 2018

http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8791.0
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8948.0
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=9189.0
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=10052.150

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Re: The Eyes Have It
#3: March 26, 2017, 06:55:12 PM
In my mind this is biggest sign this is neurological. Anjae has written about this somewhere too, but apparently a recovered MLCer returns to normal eye appearance.

My friend told me her mom worked as a nurse among psychiatric patients and said since then she can always tell if someone is mentally unwell via the eyes.
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Re: The Eyes Have It
#4: March 26, 2017, 07:15:51 PM
The only time I noticed vacant eyes was recently when I found a family vacation photo from 2014 and he looked like he wasn't even there.  Strange.
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Re: The Eyes Have It
#5: March 26, 2017, 10:32:09 PM
The eyes, I literally $h!te myself the first time I saw them.
It was BD. W was acting wierd so whlst in bed I asked if she loved me out of the darkness. The light went on, I saw the eyes and she said "no, i dont know, i dont thinks so, no I dont"! That was the end of 19,5 marriage. She hasnt been herself since  :-\.
So sad
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Re: The Eyes Have It
#6: March 26, 2017, 11:53:57 PM
I definitely know when monster has taken over my H because he's eyes are black or colourless. The one time my H was himself, the very fist thing I noticed was that his eyes were light blue that day. I'd almost forgotten they were blue.

The black eyes really remind me of carnival masks because the eyes are just black holes.
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Re: The Eyes Have It
#7: March 27, 2017, 06:42:05 AM
My husband's eyes are dark to begin with so I am not sure I see it so much. Although he was insulting me about a half hour ago and I looked straight at his eyes while he did it and one eye almost seemed to be looking in a different direction from the other.

What I do notice is something in his facial expression overall, the muscles. There's a certain smile I just have not seen since all this started, maybe even before BD. I can tell when he is just not approachable. All the muscles in his face look tense. Not wrinkled up in any way, just stiff.
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Re: The Eyes Have It
#8: March 27, 2017, 07:22:40 AM
Puffy had shark eyes... They grew more creepy and scary every time I saw him, after BD...

I've looked back at pictures, up to two years before BD and I can see the evolution. His hair, eyes, skin, all of it, changed into something dark and evil. Add in the cosmetic changes, i.e. clothes, new tattoos, etc and I don't recognize him, at all!!!
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Re: The Eyes Have It
#9: March 27, 2017, 05:31:30 PM
Hmmmmm....look at this....


Three Clues to Recognize Mania in the Eyes

Here are three clues you can use to recognize mania in yourself, in a loved one or in a client. It’s important to remember that mania is devious. I can tell you for a fact that when I’m manic, I want to make you think I’m not. I will say and do anything to make you believe me, “I’m just finally better! Do you want me to stay depressed! This is the real me! Get off my back!” If mania makes us lie to ourselves- think of how great we can be when lying to the people who want to help us! This is why looking for physical clues is a good first step if you’re trying to figure out if someone is manic.

Clue #1  Sparkling Eyes in Euphoric Mania: Euphoric mania often creates a shimmering quality to the liquid in the eyes. We sparkle! When I look in the mirror during a euphoric manic episode, I’m entranced with my face. I see NO flaws. My skin is perfect. My eyes are brilliant. My hair shines. Believe it or not, this is often physically true as well. Mania does make those changes. I have seen what look like silver, shimmering flicks in the whites of my eyes when euphoric. People find this very attractive. We all know how easy it is to get a relationship when you’re euphoric. How we look at people is a big part of this. We focus these sparkling eyes on our unsuspecting prey and they are lost!

Clue #2 Darker Eyes in Dysphoric Mania: Once I started asking clients to notice eye changes in a loved one,  I heard many stories of how dysphoric mania turned the eyes black. I tried to figure this out on my own, and finally asked an eye doctor about it. She said, “Oh, I’m not surprised by that. It’s documented that adrenaline can make the pupil take over the eye. Mania sounds like it’s something to do with adrenaline, so I would think the eye is the same color, but the pupil is huge. This creates the the all black eye.”

Clue #3  The Eyes Change Shape: The eyes can widen with euphoric mania and often get mean and narrow with dysphoric mania. I’m not talking about a few minutes of this- the changes can last for months. I know my own dysphoric mania makes me as mean as a snake and as suspicious as a jealous husband. Suspicion narrows the eyes and purses the lips. In contract, I’m open to the world when euphoric and this widens my eyes. I have seen it in pictures. My entire face brightens in euphoric mania, so it makes sense I would open my eyes wider as well.

A thought to ponder: People also report actual eye color changes when manic. One reader sent me a picture where her normal blue eyes turned brown during a dysphoric mania episode. It wasn’t the pupil. I’m interested to see what you find in your own eyes. Let me know in the comments section if you have noticed changes in your eyes when manic or if you see this happen in someone you know.

 
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I learned that courage was not the absence of fear, but the triumph over it. The brave man is not he who does not feel afraid, but he who conquers that fear — Nelson Mandela

I never lose.  I either win or learn! - Nelson Mandela

For we have fallen from our shelves, To face the truth about ourselves.  "The Gift", Annie Lennox

Hmmm....to cross the monkey bars, you have to let go.....

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Re: The Eyes Have It
#10: March 27, 2017, 06:51:00 PM
Really interesting stuff, thanks 1phoenix!!

I am four years into this and remember asking here on the forum about the eyes, my H  used to have lighter green eyes and they turned black, or near enough.  His facial muscles twitched and he huffed and puffed as he talked,  sometimes it was similar to watching the hulk when he turned into monster.  His shoulders rounded and rose from his back as he began to spit his venom. It's no wonder we are frightened of them in this state.

Mine did get physically violent at times, once pushing me physically and sometimes smashing at something of throwing my possessions to show how much he hated me.  His constant rants to show how I was crazy and needed a psychiatrist went on and on but it was him who was displaying the out of control mania and psychotic behaviour, while I stood by in absolute shock that someone who used to be a pacifist could turn into a totally different person.

There was no doubt in my mind that when displaying such wild behaviour , he could have killed me if I had argued with him so I stayed very calm and allowed him to rant.  He never really yelled, it was more like a guttural grown and moaning with often, clenched teeth and crazy eyes, spitting as he growled.

More like a wild animal than a man.  At the slightest provocation, his eyes would morph into those of a person I had never met before.

Most of his rants were aimed at letting me know I was in need of "professional help" and urging me to see someone who could "put me right".

I saw ALL his rants as total projection of his own feelings towards himself.

Anyone want to question if MLC is real??  In mine, it's a psychosis.
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http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8412(Denjef's thread)

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Re: The Eyes Have It
#11: March 28, 2017, 12:10:43 AM
Savoir Faire, I saw very similar traits in mine. He would rage, it was a guttural anger, I thought he would self combust at times. He growled and his whole body shook. He would throw furniture out the window or against the wall.  And his eyes turned slitty and black. I had looked this up on the internet in the past but had not found anything. Very interesting post of Phoenix regarding the physical changes in the eye colour. I totally believe it because I've seen it and as my H's eyes are normally light blue so there's no confusion for me when they seem like black holes. There's no colour anywhere.
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Re: The Eyes Have It
#12: March 28, 2017, 02:59:19 AM
Interesting. Black eyes wide and open when she was putting the knife in.
I though she was on something. But Adrenalin would also explain. It was always durring BD 1,2,3 and when asking for Divorce or "I want my money" talks
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Re: The Eyes Have It
#13: March 28, 2017, 05:33:44 AM
When I first noticed the eyes on a conscious level was when I came home one night and saw a kind look in her eyes. I asked her to come over to me, she did and we started kissing passionately. I never doubted that she was her old self and would want it. The thing is that shortly after the wind changed direction so to speak and her eyes looked different and the moment was gone. During our reconciliation she looked more normal, but when she came home one evening after spending the afternoon with a friend I saw the shark eyes and knew she was gone again.
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What happens to their eyes?!!?
#14: September 14, 2018, 07:13:47 AM
So I'm watching GMA, and a woman is recounting her rape by Harvey Weinstein.

She mentions how he left the room right before, and when he returns he's disrobed and "his eyes were black."  So apparently, rapists adopt shark eyes, too.

What happens, physiologically, to have their eyes turn this way? 
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Re: What happens to their eyes?!!?
#15: September 14, 2018, 07:19:51 AM
I'm not sure I like the fact that you are comparing our spouses to an alleged rapist.  >:(

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Re: What happens to their eyes?!!?
#16: September 14, 2018, 07:22:35 AM
Found this one article online:

For the first time, police officers on Monday gave a public moment-by-moment account of accused Aurora shooter James Holmes’ arrest, as part of a hearing that touched on whether Holmes is mentally fit to stand trial. Officer Jason Oviatt described Holmes as “very relaxed” after the shooting, noting that Holmes had extremely dilated pupils. Are dilated pupils a sign of mental illness?

Not a good one. Dilation of the pupils can reflect not just the lighting conditions in a room but the thoughts and feelings of a person, mentally ill or not. For example, dilated pupils can indicate sexual arousal, as when making eyes at a comely Explainerette. Psychologists sometimes study the expansion and contraction of the pupils to find an objective measure of the mind’s inner processes, in something called pupillometry. This practice has been used to study everything from racial bias to sexual preference to what happens when the mind puzzles over a difficult math problem.

However, while pupillometry has been used to study aspects of mental illness including schizophrenia, and while psychologists began observing pupil dilation among the mentally ill more than 100 years ago, pupil dilation on its own is not a good indicator of psychosis or other mental illness. Pupil dilation is regulated by the sympathetic nervous system, the part of the body that controls our fight-or-flight response. So even when psychosis causes changes in pupil dilation, such as by triggering an excited state of fear or anger, the dilation itself is identical to dilation in the non-mentally ill. Moreover, just as with sane people, the pupils return to normal once the state is over.

Dilation of the pupils can also be a side effect of using certain drugs. For example, LSD and mescaline both cause pupil dilation. Some people who suffer from mental illness may find themselves with dilated pupils caused by treatment with prescribed antipsychotic medications.

In the search for more objective, physiological signs of schizophrenia, other aspects of the eyes have also been studied, with mixed results. At least one study purported to find particular groups of facial features, including small eyes and narrow openings between the eyelids, in two subgroups of schizophrenics, but most psychiatrists don’t think such findings are useful. Researchers in the United Kingdom recently developed a computer model that could separate out a group of schizophrenics by tracking abnormalities in the movement of their eyes. However, so far the test isn’t accurate enough to be used for diagnosis.
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Re: What happens to their eyes?!!?
#17: September 14, 2018, 07:25:31 AM
Oh well perhaps your spouse is not a violent Monster in Monster....but mine IS and HAS sexually assaulted me, twice.

I found that black-eye connection interesting, that is all.
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Re: What happens to their eyes?!!?
#18: September 14, 2018, 07:29:53 AM
Some people on line were talking about this, just the other day.  They had abusers.  This was their take.

"Actually, the reason for this is the pupil dilates and changes sizes. Very angry people have been known for their eyes to appear to turn black, but its just the changing of the size of the pupil. Certain drugs can cause this effect as well as changes in blood pressure.  This is also been called shark eyes."

I only saw those black eyes on my H once.
We were walking in a grocery store and I turned to say something and his eyes were pitch black (he has dark brown eyes anyway).
I asked him what was wrong.  He was seething mad because this guy behind him kept ramming his cart into his ankles, until he turned and told him to back up with his cart.

I told him later I never want you to look like that way me, it was scary.   They were the blackest eyes I've ever seen.

That's all I got.   :)
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A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

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Re: What happens to their eyes?!!?
#19: September 14, 2018, 07:42:49 AM
Ok so when one is in a state of rage, the pupils dilate.  That makes sense.

Didn't mean to piss you off, Goner.  You do seem to have it in for me though (?!)
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Re: What happens to their eyes?!!?
#20: September 14, 2018, 07:49:43 AM
Hey, compare mine to whatever you want, when mine had his hand literally on the door knob, he turned to me and said, “I don’t love you.”  The words stung, but those eyes, I will never forget those cold black eyes. Thirty years with that man and had never once before saw his eyes look like that.

A few weeks later while I was talking to one of his coworkers, and his coworker used the term “shark eyes” for the way he looked at work.

So those eyes weren’t just reserved for me.
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Re: What happens to their eyes?!!?
#21: September 14, 2018, 08:09:14 AM
I read an article way back (and I believe probably posted it here at some point) about how depression shows in the eyes.  I'll see if I can find it later today.
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Re: What happens to their eyes?!!?
#22: September 14, 2018, 09:07:32 AM
I got shark eyes too.  Dead.  Black.  Like staring into the cold void of space.  They continued for months.  I still see flashes occasionally, but they've pretty much gone away since I moved out 6 months ago.  It is a bizarre phenomenon and I even told her while it was occurring.  Disconcerting to say the least.  it's like the personification of hate is issuing forth from the windows of their soul.
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M=51
W=47
D=8
BD Feb 17 Thinking of divorce
Atomic BD June 17 Spying revealed OM at work
Still home.  Threatened to leave several times and has asked me to leave about a dozen. 
Says divorce proceedings will start Jan 18.
She has scheduled mediation Feb 7,  2018
I moved out March 16, 2018
Several mediations, mostly instigated by me.  Foot dragging by STBXW.  Nothing filed. Yet.
5/2019 STBXW filed D behind my back despite signed agreement to mediate.
I retain attorney.
STBXW still hasn't told me and no further action.
Elephant in the room has been addressed.  No further action atm.  Weighing my options.
12/16/19  She files financial paperwork.  Divorce proceeding.

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Re: What happens to their eyes?!!?
#23: September 14, 2018, 09:19:31 AM

Good grief, megogirl, even if some MLCer are very, very, horrible, they are not Harvey Weinstein, an abuser and probable rapist.

I have a MLCer that has physically been violent towards me, not sexually, but he is not Harvey Weinstein.

I have no idea if rapist adopt shark eyes as well or if Harvey Weinstein was on drugs/alcohol or whatever, but he and our MLCers are not alike.

As, humans, our  pupils dilate when we are on a stage of rage. But that is not what MLCers shark eyes are. MLCers dead/shark eyes comes from depression, it is similar, if not the same, as the eyes of depressed people.

Never saw cold black eyes on Mr J. When he was physically violent his eyes were still normal. Later, they become the normal MLCer dead eyes. No spark, nothing, just dead.

I read an article way back (and I believe probably posted it here at some point) about how depression shows in the eyes.

Depression shows in the eyes, but it has nothing to do with the rage look.

Mods, can you merge this thread with https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8883.0 - The Eyes Have It Thank you.

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Re: The Eyes Have It
#24: September 14, 2018, 10:01:14 AM
Done Anjae...thank you for keeping us on track. :)

I think we need to be very careful NOT to brush every person, especially celebrities and rapists or other violent individuals, NOT to insinuate that they have MLC.

It is very commonly stated by LBSers that their MLCer have "shark eyes" or "dead eyes". I can see it especially in pictures I have taken of him, he may have a smile on his lips but his eyes are lifeless.

Our eyes don’t lie: they’re windows to the soul. They show the truth, no matter what face we put on, in any situation. The best way to get to know someone is to look them in the eyes and observe what they reveal about their emotional state.

Our eyes, just like our body language, give us away, and they say more than we ever could with words. As a matter of fact, most of the information we convey is through nonverbal language, which ranges from simple looks to all of the movements we make.
You can read the rest of the article at : https://exploringyourmind.com/eyes-windows-soul/

The therapy I have been receiving is focused on mind/body. My therapist can read even the smallest reaction, and when she makes me aware of these responses and specifically how to change the response to one that gets me out of flight/fight mode, I learn to control my nervous system.

The thing is, most of the time our bodies function in an automatic mode and we are not "aware" of what we are presenting to the world.

Again, photography shows me more clearly than anything how empty and lost my husband is. Pictures of our family are very telling as he stands like a block of ice away from us, really distant from the rest of us.

There are lots of other observations of physical changes that we see, many LBSers notice that their spouses have aged or look pale and pasty.

I agree, the severe depression that continues for them causes physical changes in their appearance as well and their eyes show it very clearly.
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« Last Edit: September 14, 2018, 10:02:33 AM by xyzcf »
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

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Re: The Eyes Have It
#25: September 14, 2018, 10:39:57 AM
Well, apparently I have the sickest, cruelest MLC'er ever, because I WOULD put him the same category as Harvey Weinstein!

Egomaniac, drunk with power, violent.  All of it rings true.

I thought that was just "Monster", rearing its ugly head.  Perhaps I have really been subjected to many years of abuse and just haven't realized it. (?!)

I have always felt like his property, and that he is somehow "superior" to me.
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Re: The Eyes Have It
#26: September 14, 2018, 10:47:26 AM
I don't just think its the eyes.

My wifes' facial expressions have also changed. When I look back at photos of happy family holidays from only a few years ago, the photos show a sparkle, a light, a glow in her that is no longer present. Her face is full of worry, thought, concern, anguish?

Its not a depression that stops her getting out of bed every day; I think its like Denjef describes....its an inner turmoil for which she cant explain or escape.


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Re: The Eyes Have It
#27: September 14, 2018, 11:40:09 AM
My wifes' facial expressions have also changed. When I look back at photos of happy family holidays from only a few years ago, the photos show a sparkle, a light, a glow in her that is no longer present. Her face is full of worry, thought, concern, anguish?

The Christmas card from the year my STBXW says she "checked out" 2014, shows the exact same facial expression.  At the time I thought it was a horrible photo of her, and now I know I wasn't imagining things.  It truly is sad how all of us experience the same things and yet no one has this information in advance so that we can tell far in advance what is happening and perhaps divert it?  I don't know if that's even possible.  Like you, I am seeing a future that does not have my gas lighting, IMAX projecting, lying, manipulative, withholding, unrepentant STBXW in it, and despite the damage I believe it will do to my D, that future looks bright. 
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M=51
W=47
D=8
BD Feb 17 Thinking of divorce
Atomic BD June 17 Spying revealed OM at work
Still home.  Threatened to leave several times and has asked me to leave about a dozen. 
Says divorce proceedings will start Jan 18.
She has scheduled mediation Feb 7,  2018
I moved out March 16, 2018
Several mediations, mostly instigated by me.  Foot dragging by STBXW.  Nothing filed. Yet.
5/2019 STBXW filed D behind my back despite signed agreement to mediate.
I retain attorney.
STBXW still hasn't told me and no further action.
Elephant in the room has been addressed.  No further action atm.  Weighing my options.
12/16/19  She files financial paperwork.  Divorce proceeding.

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Re: The Eyes Have It
#28: September 14, 2018, 12:22:23 PM
My H had the most beautiful sparkling blue eyes prior to bd. At that time they turned into the quintessential  black shark eyes. And he could barely muster a half smile.  Strange enough, they do change back and forth. Maybe the eyes are like a mood ring of sorts.
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Re: The Eyes Have It
#29: September 14, 2018, 01:15:34 PM
I barely look at my H at all now let alone into his eyes.  However when he was still in the house for 8 weeks after BD I noticed the dark, vacant soulless eyes to.  He has dark eyes so it’s difficult to see if they’ve got darker but the vacant, distant look is obvious.  His mum and sister also made reference to the soulless eyes.  This was when he was having to deal with their emotions...they didnt see the anger/monster eyes...they were reserved just for me.  His mum even said he looks like he possessed by a ghost...I agree that exactly how he looked.

I dont look at pics of H and OW or any recent pics of him but have been told by those that have seen them that he looks so checked out. 

Massive changes to facial expressions to.  He used to have a kind, placid, relaxed look and now he just looks manic and fake happy.  I cant even remember the old look anymore.

 Agree the shark eyes are depression and anger....or basically any change to emotional state .
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Re: The Eyes Have It
#30: September 14, 2018, 02:20:22 PM
You're welcome, Xyzcf.

Regarding the eyes, there is a point (or types) of depression were nothing is seen in the eyes. Not all depressed people have those dead eyes MLCer have and many depressed people also do.

Mr J, like all MLCers, was already depressed at BD. His eyes remained normal for almost 3 years after he left. Then, on,y rarely have they seem normal again.

There are other changes in Mr J. One of his eyes is lower than the other. His eyelids are almost closed. His face changes. Often puffy, but at times almost normal. His body posture is also changed. Hunched shoulders, movements look different, same with pace/way of walk - I only have photos or videos from his DJ sets and the two times I saw him past the 3 years mark, once in family court and last January.

Family court was October 2014 and I only recognised him because my lawyer pointed and said, there is Mr J. January his movements on the DJ booth were weird, so was his posture.

In some photos, from differt years, he looks almos his normal self. In most, he looks very stange and different.

megogirl, if your husband had always been like Harvey Weinstein and always was monster, than, you either do not have a MLCer or you never noticed before how he was.

I doubt you wouldn't had notice monster before... if your MCL husband is like your real husband, how did you notice any changes?

I have always felt like his property, and that he is somehow "superior" to me.

Think this has more to do with you than with him.
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« Last Edit: September 14, 2018, 02:34:48 PM by Anjae »
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Re: The Eyes Have It
#31: September 14, 2018, 02:41:25 PM
Quote
It truly is sad how all of us experience the same things and yet no one has this information in advance so that we can tell far in advance what is happening and perhaps divert it?  I don't know if that's even possible.

I dont think that it is possible to divert it. We had the most amazing and fantastic holiday prior to all this chaos starting. Within a month of returning, Mrs K has quit her job and had got a new one; within weeks she started withdrawing from our marriage and within months of the holiday, had checked out of our marriage; I doubt she will ever return.

If you had asked me on that holiday, would we be separated within months I would have laughed you out of the city.....

Even if I realised what was happening at the time I dont think there was anything I could have done to prevent it.
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« Last Edit: September 14, 2018, 02:43:07 PM by MKnight10 »

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Re: The Eyes Have It
#32: September 14, 2018, 02:55:53 PM
It truly is sad how all of us experience the same things and yet no one has this information in advance so that we can tell far in advance what is happening and perhaps divert it?  I don't know if that's even possible.

We can't prevent it. At best, if we knew the signs, we may start to make certain decision for ourselves. But even if we knew the signs, I don't know.

A handful of HS members married twice to people who end up in MLC. Having had a first MLCer spouse does not mean we will be able to
to do a thing about a second spouse going into MLC. Let alone if is it the first time we are faced with it.
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Re: The Eyes Have It
#33: September 14, 2018, 02:56:37 PM
No....it had EVERYTHING to do with him....

If he didn't get sex every single day, I was to blame.

If there was someone I was friends with on FB that was single and he did not know, they had to be "de-friended" immediately.

He looked me dead in the face and said, "You married up."

Please tell me how am I *not* supposed to take that comment as being inferior-to-my-superior?!?
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Re: The Eyes Have It
#34: September 14, 2018, 03:55:34 PM
Did those things happened before BD/MLC? If so, it has to do with you. You accepted them rather than leave a relationship that, clearly, was unhealthy.

Your husband could be this, that or those, but you remained married to him and with him.

If those things happened after BD/while in MLC, they are all unceptable, odd and horrible, but that is different from things always had been that way.

Please tell me how am I *not* supposed to take that comment as being inferior-to-my-superior?!?

Do you think you are inferior to your husband?  He may say whatever he wants, but what do you think?
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Re: The Eyes Have It
#35: September 15, 2018, 06:09:35 AM
Did those things happened before BD/MLC? If so, it has to do with you. You accepted them rather than leave a relationship that, clearly, was unhealthy.


Yes I've always known certain things have been "off."  For example, making me defriend certain people on FB, and screaming at me until that happened.  That was a red flag that something wasn't right.

I wouldn't say I "accepted" it....any more than I accept all of the crap he's doing now. 

It's called a vow.  For better or worse, and that was just the "worse."

I know he isn't superior to me, but he believes he is.  Actually, he believes he's superior to most people. 

MLC has intensified his narcissicism exponentially.
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Re: The Eyes Have It
#36: September 15, 2018, 06:32:38 AM
Sounds like Delusions of Grandeur, megogirl.   ::)

Actually my first H was a narcissist, but it took me years to figure it out.
Sometimes it's not always easy when you're married to them to be objective...or to see the whole picture for a long time.

Why did I stay married to him for 18 years?  I guess because we had 3 kids and I was Catholic....and a stay at home mom.  Divorce was very scary for me.  How was I going to support 3 teenagers?
Not great excuses but it's the truth.   ::) 
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Re: The Eyes Have It
#37: September 15, 2018, 07:32:29 AM
I didn't really notice the eyes, when he ran off after BD, I only saw him a few times, and he couldn't look me in the face, always had his face turned to the side, the one time I saw him in court i noticed he looked pale and pasty. 
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Re: The Eyes Have It
#38: September 15, 2018, 07:45:00 AM
Myself, my children and most of our collective extended family have declared to me that they have seen the "look" in my wife's eyes on many occasions through the years.  It is a very cold, emotionless look that epitomizes the old cliche "if looks could kill".  Sometimes its a depressed look, sometimes a manic look and sometimes a diabolical look.  My children are grow (ages 20 to 30) and all are very wary of that look.  They have all expressed to me since BD that they knew how a visit would go within a couple of minutes of walking through the door and looking at her.  I guess i just looked at it as normal after 33 years.  At BD her eyes were the coldest i have ever seen.  Blank, empty and full of distain. Been that way since (only 3 weeks now). 
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Re: What happens to their eyes?!!?
#39: September 15, 2018, 10:20:30 AM
Didn't mean to piss you off, Goner.  You do seem to have it in for me though (?!)

No, I don't have it in for you. You just seem to be obsessed with seeing everything related to MLC through a filter of Hollywood in one way or another.
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Re: The Eyes Have It
#40: September 15, 2018, 11:32:25 AM
When Harvey Weinstein's victim said "his eyes were black", that struck a chord.  Hey, my MLC'er's eyes also turned black! 

It would seem that rage is the common denominator between the two.  The fact that Harvey Weinstein worked in Hollywood is happenstance.

He could be a janitor with black-eyes.

     
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« Last Edit: September 15, 2018, 11:37:18 AM by megogirl »

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Re: The Eyes Have It
#41: September 15, 2018, 12:31:16 PM
It does seem that there is a correlation between emotions and pupil dilation. This would explain the blackness. But  the distant look is almost disassociative, as if they have stepped outside their own normal, disconnected from certain emotions, maybe. If that is what a person has seen in their MLCer , then likening an MLCER(who appears to have a distorted perception of what is acceptable behavior) to a serial killer (who obviously has distorted perceptions of what is acceptable behavior) is not that far a stretch. We've seen reports of mid life people killing their families. 

It's fair to theorize that MLC could be a mild form of mental illness, or a lessening of inhibitions that might keep personality disorders under check. So it would be fair to liken an MLCER who had mild PD traits that they usually kept in check but jumped to the forefront at MLC to someone who had always been that way.  It might be a temporary comparison, but fair depending on how crazy the MLC behavior.

Someone asking "is this possible that these things might be connected?" does not paint everyone with the same brush. It's a theory to be explored should anyone want to do it. It's a valid theory until proven, with facts, otherwise.
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Re: The Eyes Have It
#42: September 15, 2018, 12:47:19 PM
OffRoad, I sure don't know.

They sure can act mentally ill sometimes, can't they?  Plus there are a rare few who never come out of it.

I was very close to a couple years back, happily married for years.  The H went crazy and started acting like a nutty teenager, W divorced him, he was in his 40's.

I saw him at a wedding awhile ago and he was still partying, drinking, had 2 young girls on his arm...and he is now 70 years old.   ::)
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Re: The Eyes Have It
#43: September 15, 2018, 02:26:26 PM
It's called a vow.  For better or worse, and that was just the "worse."

It is called being in an abusive relatioship. Mask it with "it is called vows" is turning a blind eye to reality.

There is a difference between a rough past in a relationship/marriage and abuse. Your husband was abusive pre-MLC.

Therefore, why are you standing (if you are)? He is not going to magically stop being who he was before MLC.

Maybe his MLC is an opprtunity for you to think things through. We don't support abuse of any kind, and we certainly do not support standing for a pre-MLC abusive spouse.

I am not saying we will not support you, we will, I am saying that, despite HS being geared at those that do not want a divorce from their MLCer (but often find themselves divorced or have to divorce for protection), HS does not support abusive relationships.
´
Megogirl, I think you have a lot of thinking and self-work to do. And that is far more important than your marriage.

He could be a janitor with black-eyes.

You know that there are people who naturally have black, or very dark brown eyes, don't you? That does not make them Harvey Weinstein. Or an abuser or a psychopath. Most Portuguese people have very dark eyes, we aren't Harvey Weinstein.

Anyway, what is Harvey Weinstein's eye colour?

Sorry, OR, but I don't agree one bit. Linking a MLCer to someone like Harvey Weinstein or a psycopath does not make sense. MLCers go back to normal once the crisis is over, this people will always be the way they are.

Rage is not the main thing for MLC, depression is. Rage/anger is there but as consequence of depression.

That is not what megogirl did. She picked what someone said about Harvey Weinstein and decided it is how MLCers eyes look. It isn't. Besides, we don't know more than "his eyes were black". Was he in the dark? Was he really angry/in rage? We don't know. Being a predador and being in rage are different things.

I doubt most MLCer had mild PD traits before MLC. PD are very obvious, even if mild.

Being a midlife person and being in MLC are two different people. There are also young people who kill their familes and old people who kill their families. And the US have no shortage of very young mass murderers, some of them with very light eyes.

Lets not start to make eye colour an indication of PD or of being a murdered. Some murderers, including serial killers, had beautiful, light, innocent looking eyes.

Mr J is a totally crazy behaviour MLCer, it would never cross my mind to link/compare him to Harvey Weinstein. And, like I said, Mr J's eyes never turned black when he was in a rage, including when he was being physically abusive. He has greenish car shinning eyes and they remained the same colour without the shinning.

Comparing MLC, that, for most, is temporary, with people who have always been a certain horrible way, is like comparing oranges to apples.
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Re: The Eyes Have It
#44: September 15, 2018, 02:43:24 PM
Therefore, why are you standing (if you are)? He is not going to magically stop being who he was before MLC.

No, he won't...but that's where I see his MLC as a (potentially) good thing.

If the crisis changes them, I believe it will change him for the better! 

Because his noggin is weeding out all his crap from yesteryear, the end result will be that's he's finally CLEAN....so, no more raging!

That's just what I believe. and to answer your question I am Standing for S15.  If he did not exist, I might not be.
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Re: The Eyes Have It
#45: September 15, 2018, 02:54:50 PM
Doubt a MLC changes an abuser into non-abuser. Even for MLCer that were not abusive before MLC, MLC does not always change them for the better. Often they are just who they were, but different. That is all.

An MLCer always changing for the better after MLC is a myth. And a narcisist is not going to stop being a narcisist because, unlike MLC, Narcisist PD is permanent. At least until someone finds a way of solve/cure it.

Because his noggin is weeding out all his crap from yesteryear, the end result will be that's he's finally CLEAN....so, no more raging!

That would most likely be the case if he only had started the abusive behaviour in MLC. But the behaviour was already there. You do need to think things through, megogirl. You were (are) married to an abuser. You have an husband with far bigger problems than MLC.

and to answer your question I am Standing for S15.  If he did not exist, I might not be.

Sorry, but this does not make sense. S15 is not the marriage. And what good is for S15 to have mum back with abusive dad? I have the same question for you I have for everyone who had children with abusiver partners, why did you had a child with such man?

Exactly what example do you thing you are giving to your son by had remained married to an abusive man, let alone stand for such man because of him?

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Re: The Eyes Have It
#46: September 15, 2018, 03:22:19 PM
She picked what someone said about Harvey Weinstein and decided it is how MLCers eyes look. It isn't.

I can only speak from my own experience....and MY MLC'ers eyes turned jet-black!

My only frame of reference is IN MLC.  Do his eyes turn black otherwise??  Nothing I've ever seen.
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Re: The Eyes Have It
#47: September 15, 2018, 03:27:44 PM
S15 is not the marriage. And what good is for S15 to have mum back with abusive dad

Because he is a GREAT KID.  The last thing he needs is to have his family destroyed.  So as H loses his mind, I am trying to keep the peace.

As far as being abusive - you are probably right.  But no one is perfect, forgiveness is possible, and people *do* change. 

I believe his MLC will act as that catalyst.
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Re: The Eyes Have It
#48: September 15, 2018, 03:48:08 PM
megogirl

Quote
As far as being abusive - you are probably right.  But no one is perfect, forgiveness is possible, and people *do* change.

There is a difference between no one being perfect and domestic violence...a huge difference. If your husband has abused you prior to his MLC, then staying with him for the sake of your son is not a healthy thing to do. Indeed, it may very well be very dangerous if his violence escalated to the point of serious injury or even death....indeed even death to you and your son.

As many others have stated, I urge you to get some help from an organization that deals with domestic violence. Perhaps they can explain to you the term "Cycle of violence" and they certainly will have the resources to help you...if you want help...you have to be ready to really face the reality of your married life...and how the violence may have escalated over the years....leading you to believe that it wasn't that bad as you accept each escalation because you have been already desensitized.

"live as though he is never coming back" are some of the truest words that I have learned in the last 9 years.....you stated:

Quote
I believe his MLC will act as that catalyst.

I don't believe this to be true. If he has been abusive to you for years, this crisis is not going to change that in him.

I don't want to upset you or have you think that you are not supported here...but a thought I have when reading your story is that you may be clinging to the label "MLC" hoping that this is what has happened to your spouse..aha, the lights go off and you can finally explain his behavior by attaching a label...MLC.....I am not saying he isn't in a crisis but I know that the label helps me to "accept" the way I have been treated without having to "accept" the man he has become.

Our marriage prior to the suddeness of his announcing that he needed space was a wonderful and loving marriage...he never even raised his voice at me, he was kind, thoughtful, caring, hard working and he never ever belittled me or put me down.

Your comments:

Quote
Yes I've always known certain things have been "off."  For example, making me defriend certain people on FB, and screaming at me until that happened.  That was a red flag that something wasn't right.

I wouldn't say I "accepted" it....any more than I accept all of the crap he's doing now. 

It's called a vow.  For better or worse, and that was just the "worse."

I know he isn't superior to me, but he believes he is


suggest that this has been a long time pattern for you...maybe now is the "gift of time" as OP is so find of saying, for you to really consider for real, how your marriage has been all these years.

I do understand "standing"  and the meaning of that sacred vow.....I am really sorry that you have been treated so badly by him, not just recently, but it sounds like throughout many years of your marriage.
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Re: The Eyes Have It
#49: September 15, 2018, 04:02:19 PM
I can only speak from my own experience....and MY MLC'ers eyes turned jet-black!

Then you shoud not have though it happens to MLCers. Because it does not. What most of us, if not nearly all, see is dead, listless, eyes, not black eyes.


Son being a great kid is not a reason for you to take an abusive husband back. Your case is different than most of ours, you already had an abuser. Son's family is already destroyed. In fact, since your husband was an abuser, it already was. Keep the peace?

If you want to keep the peace, you need to make sure your abusive husband does not return.

As far as being abusive - you are probably right.  But no one is perfect, forgiveness is possible, and people *do* change. 

Forgiveness as nothing to do with remaining in an abusive relationship, let alone taking back an abuser. No one is perfect, but not being perfect and being an abuser is different. People do change, but abusers seldom do.

Why do you make excuses for your pre-MLC abusive husband? You are behaving like abused women often do, thinking the abuser will change.

I believe his MLC will act as that catalyst.

Doubt. Are you paying attention to what I write? I've wrote it before, if someone was an abuser before MLC, that is not likely to change with MLC.

You didn't answer why you had a child with an abusive man. Were you thinking the child may change him as well?

megogirl, try to understand that your husband is an abuser and nothing serves as an excuse for his abusive husband.

I think you need to stop thinking your husband is like most of our husbands, who were not abusive pre-MLC. It is unfortunate he is the way he is, but you remained married to him, who knows why.

Like Xyzcf said, he may be having a MLC, abuser, addicts, people with pre-existing mental illness have MLC, but MLC will not change those issues, maybe aside from addicts that may reach rock bottom while in MLC.
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« Last Edit: September 15, 2018, 04:03:33 PM by Anjae »
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Re: The Eyes Have It
#50: September 15, 2018, 04:12:59 PM
You didn't answer why you had a child with an abusive man. Were you thinking the child may change him as well?

NO!  I had a child with him because I got pregnant; I love him; and he loves me.

I think you've all gotten the wrong idea about my H.  He's high-strung, for sure.  But he's *never* been physically violent - the worst he's done is to throw a (harmless) comb at me. 

He works extremely hard, and I attribute any "acting-out" now to his MLC (a direct result of his dysfunctional parents!)

I am, by no means, a "battered wife."     
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« Last Edit: September 15, 2018, 04:22:31 PM by megogirl »

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Re: The Eyes Have It
#51: September 15, 2018, 04:23:14 PM
Meg..two excellent posts by xyczf and Anjae

I suggest you check out the domestic violence thread...there's a list of behaviors considered domestic violence....he's been verbally abusive also.
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Don't ask why someone is still hurting you; ask why you keep letting them.What you allow continues.

At some point you have to get sick of going through the same sh!t.

Women are NOT rehabilitation centers for badly raised men. It is not your job to fix ,parent, raise or change him.
You want a partner not a project.

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Re: The Eyes Have It
#52: September 15, 2018, 04:24:27 PM
Megogirl,

I don't pile in here, I really don't, but "the worse" in the vows doesn't mean accepting abuse.  I means when you H or W is not at their best and is not being supportive or loving you stand by them.

It means when your H is sick with a disease or is depressed, or looses their job and can't be your proper spouse, you support them.
If my H had cancer I would still stick with him.  If he had a mental illness, I would still stick with him.

But abuse is different.  That's not for better or worse, that I staying in a dangerous relationship.

There truly is a difference.
I don't think God meant for us to put ourselves in danger, just to stick by them then they are sick, like with cancer.

I hope that makes sense to you.

Your H raped you more than once, that is not ok, that is beyond the "worse" our vows were meant for.
Yes, I'm sorry but that is being a battered wife.
Please hon, don't make excuses for him.  What he did was violent.
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Re: The Eyes Have It
#53: September 15, 2018, 04:32:11 PM
As mentioned above my wife has had a history with the blank, dark eyes.  My question to the group is how much mental illness does everyone attribute to the mlc.  I feel there is alot in my wife's,  but i am not sure.  I have read about chaos kids and childhood trauma which my wife has definitely experience.  What does that mean for me?
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Re: The Eyes Have It
#54: September 15, 2018, 04:43:52 PM
Yari,

That just means you had nothing to do with your w's trauma.

You can't fix her or make things better for her.  She needs to do that all by herself.
I know this is hard but you just need to step back and, as hard as this is, let her do her own mending, her own fixing.
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Re: The Eyes Have It
#55: September 15, 2018, 04:47:36 PM
Please hon, don't make excuses for him.  What he did was violent.

I make no bones that what he did was totally unacceptable.  I am not sure which assault you are referring to, though?!

If it's the "Donald Trump" one well, DT did the same thing.....and HE'S THE FREAKING PRESIDENT!

If I only stay the course, his MLC will eventually fix him.  It was/is sent by God.
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Re: The Eyes Have It
#56: September 15, 2018, 04:54:19 PM
Quote
I make no bones that what he did was totally unacceptable.  I am not sure which assault you are referring to, though?!

If it's the "Donald Trump" one well, DT did the same thing.....and HE'S THE FREAKING PRESIDENT!

PLEASE read what you just wrote...so because Donald Trump does this it is ok??????

Quote
If I only stay the course, his MLC will eventually fix him.  It was/is sent by God.

No God did not send "MLC" to fix him.
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"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

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Re: The Eyes Have It
#57: September 15, 2018, 05:01:23 PM
PLEASE read what you just wrote...so because Donald Trump does this it is ok?

HELLLLLS TO THE NO!  DT is a sociopath. 

I only used him as an example because the timing of both our events was so similar.
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Re: The Eyes Have It
#58: September 15, 2018, 05:08:02 PM
he's been verbally abusive also.

Sorry Init....but I'm a tad confused (?)
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Re: The Eyes Have It
#59: September 15, 2018, 05:10:05 PM

I am, by no means, a "battered wife."     

Another Quote from Megogirl:

My black-eyed Monster H has already sexually assaulted me, twice (once "Donald Trump"-style, in the middle of the night)  Another time, he had intercourse so violent, I considered it full-on rape. 


I don't even know what to say.


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I packed his bags two days later...semi-vanisher
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Re: The Eyes Have It
#60: September 15, 2018, 05:12:01 PM
Well whatever it is you have to face it was totally unacceptable behavior by your H. And for you to accept it is no role model for your children.
Didn't you say he was yelling at you to unfriend men on facebook? (or was that someone else)  That's controlling behavior.

And for you to continue to allow the abuse  it only adds to the dysfunction.

Your children need one sane healthy parent when this is over with.
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There are two ways of spreading light:
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Don't ask why someone is still hurting you; ask why you keep letting them.What you allow continues.

At some point you have to get sick of going through the same sh!t.

Women are NOT rehabilitation centers for badly raised men. It is not your job to fix ,parent, raise or change him.
You want a partner not a project.

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Re: The Eyes Have It
#61: September 15, 2018, 05:26:20 PM
Didn't you say he was yelling at you to unfriend men on facebook? (or was that someone else)  That's controlling behavior.

Yes, that was me, and I know it's controlling (and exactly why I'd indicated it as a "red flag'")

He has not done it since.
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Re: The Eyes Have It
#62: September 15, 2018, 05:29:27 PM
You are making excuses for him... I do believe you will get to the point where enough is enough.
I can only hope you can keep yourself safe.
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There are two ways of spreading light:
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Don't ask why someone is still hurting you; ask why you keep letting them.What you allow continues.

At some point you have to get sick of going through the same sh!t.

Women are NOT rehabilitation centers for badly raised men. It is not your job to fix ,parent, raise or change him.
You want a partner not a project.

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Re: The Eyes Have It
#63: September 15, 2018, 05:36:41 PM
megogirl.

Sorry my long reply to you is in never, never lost land.   :-\

Just please take your time and try to see how his controlling ways are effecting your thinking.

I had a controller too with my 1st H so I DO understand.
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A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

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Re: The Eyes Have It
#64: September 15, 2018, 05:45:34 PM
I can only hope you can keep yourself safe.

Well this made me LOL a bit, as he resides at the wh*r^house,  4.5 hours away....can't get much safer than THAT?!?

Thank you for all your well-wishes though; rest assured, I am absolutely FINE (other than the cops appearing at my hotel in NOV 2017, because he had sent them there in defense of his skank, but really, to provide an twisted alibi for his previous sexual assaults against ME?!?)

The never-ending soap opera continues....

xoxo
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« Last Edit: September 15, 2018, 06:10:57 PM by megogirl »

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Re: The Eyes Have It
#65: September 15, 2018, 05:55:15 PM
 :(
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A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

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Re: The Eyes Have It
#66: September 15, 2018, 05:59:16 PM
Yep... if I told you just how messed up things got with me?
I can believe he did that.

Seriously you can not make this sh!t up...
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There are two ways of spreading light:
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Don't ask why someone is still hurting you; ask why you keep letting them.What you allow continues.

At some point you have to get sick of going through the same sh!t.

Women are NOT rehabilitation centers for badly raised men. It is not your job to fix ,parent, raise or change him.
You want a partner not a project.

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Re: The Eyes Have It
#67: September 15, 2018, 06:05:35 PM
OK... megogirl is not ready perhaps to look closely at her marriage, which all of us have to do.

She has written several disturbing things about her husband, but has a response each time anyone asks her to seriously consider the possibility of abuse....we can only go by what she has written .....we are not living her life.

megogirl, the people who have been responding to you are smart. They know a great deal about MLC and about domestic abuse. Personally I would trust what they are saying to you....at least to honestly take a look at why you  continue to excuse him....

This is NOT a conspiracy to gang" up on you.

There were times when people would write things about my situation that I DID NOT WANT TO HEAR...I had to be ready and some of that came from an amazing therapist who opened my eyes, me mind, my heart, my soul and my body on many levels...until I could process the damage he had done to me...damage from his MLC...not prior to that. Still, I kept thinking, "oh no, he would never do something like that" until he did...and then these people would pick me up off the ground, dust me off and offer their loving "advice"....


But it was always my decision to accept what others said or not.

Your choice...always was and always will be.

Be safe. The distance doesn't matter regarding where he lives. Be safe.
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Re: The Eyes Have It
#68: September 15, 2018, 06:46:31 PM
I am sorry, Yari. We're quite worried with Megogirl's situation and we missed your questions.

quote author=Yari link=topic=8883.msg687929#msg687929 date=1537054331]
AsInsert Quote  |  Insert Unordered List  Insert Ordered List  Horizontal Rule  |  Remove Formatting  Toggle View
Smiley  Wink  Cheesy  Grin  Angry  Sad  Shocked  Cool  Huh  Roll Eyes  Tongue  Embarrassed  Lips sealed  Undecided  Kiss  Cry mentioned above my wife has had a history with the blank, dark eyes.  My question to the group is how much mental illness does everyone attribute to the mlc.  I feel there is alot in my wife's,  but i am not sure.  I have read about chaos kids and childhood trauma which my wife has definitely experience.  What does that mean for me?
[/quote]

I think MLC is a temporary form of mental illness. MLC involves depression, some types of depression are temporary. MLC tends to mimic bipolar, but it is not bipolar. At times, it also seems to has traces of borderline, but it is not borderline.

I don't know what your wife had suffered childhood trauma means for you. For you, it means she is in MLC. Even if I think childhood trauma alone does not bring MLC - a set of things does, but it does seem several in MLC, but not all, suffered childhood trauma.

I guess it means what it means to all of us LBS, our spouse is in MLC and there is nothing we can do about it. So far, no one has found a way of solving or mitigating MLC.



You didn't answer why you had a child with an abusive man. Were you thinking the child may change him as well?

NO!  I had a child with him because I got pregnant; I love him; and he loves me.

Then the question is, why did you got pregnant from an abuser. You may love him, or think you do, but I very much doubt he loves you. He controls and abuses you, that is not love.

I think you've all gotten the wrong idea about my H.  He's high-strung, for sure.  But he's *never* been physically violent - the worst he's done is to throw a (harmless) comb at me. 

Did we? He sexually assaulted you twice, one of which you consider rape. Sexual assault is physical violence and so is rape. Therefore, he was physically violent at least twice and the worst he has done was not to throw a comb at you. It was to rape you. How that guest to be excused I have no idea.

DT being an abuser  does not excuse your husbands' actions. Agree with Xyzcf, you're not ready for what we have been/are telling you. Hope you soon will.   
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Re: The Eyes Have It
#69: September 15, 2018, 07:48:00 PM
Sorry, OR, but I don't agree one bit. Linking a MLCer to someone like Harvey Weinstein or a psycopath does not make sense. MLCers go back to normal once the crisis is over, this people will always be the way they are.
And I celebrate your right to disagree. I don't always appreciate the way it comes across on a post(you just can't see facial expressions in the written word), but I honor your right to have any opinion you choose.

How do we know MLCERS go back to "normal",  BTW? From what is written here, it sure doesnt seem like they ALL do. I will also point out I said "likening" not "linking"  likening means like, as in "looks like". Link means "connect with". Do I think black eyes means someone is a serial killer or rapist? No. Do I think the black eye/shark eye phenomenon is related to an emotional state? Yes. Do I think MLCers  and serial killers/rapists end up in an emotional state? Yes. It would be false logic to then say if serial killers/rapists and MLCers  both have the black eye phenomenon,  they are the same. But it would not be a false theory (conjecture) that if this trait is similar, what else might be similar, and that could go back to the discussion on chemical imbalances or neurological issues that some people have all of their lives, and some develop at a time in their life and live with from then on, and some might develop and it goes away through various means. After all some people start their life with diabetes, some develop it some time in their life, and there are a rare few who get close to being diabetic, but change their exercise and eating habits and avoid it.

And also, yes, my ex does have PD traits. I just didn't recognize them because I had a  PD mother (and I didn't know THAT growing up, either) so he seemed "normal " to me. Who knew people don't just fly off the handle because things don't go their way?  No one at work ever saw that until MLC hit. But I digress, I actually came out of this in a much better place.

Point being, as always anything is fair game as theory, or wondering or "Hey, this is duck-like, is it a duck?", imo. And also, IMHO, it's not always a bad thing to wonder these things, because what if one of us has that whatever percentage MLCer(or maybe not MLCER, but kind of looks like a duck) that IS going to go into territory that's truly dangerous for the lbs or kids. The one that no one suspected would do such a thing? The shark eyes scared the crap out of me and made me wary. It was a good thing. I didn't want to be one of these families, especially since loss of job was part of what set my ex off.
https://www.newsweek.com/why-ordinary-people-murder-their-families-82425

If someone wonders or has a theory about how MLCERS might be like X, if it doesn't apply to OUR Mlcer  (as far as we are concerned),  then no big deal. If, instead, we are concerned that the poster might be in danger, we should say that: "I am concerned for your well being. Are you currently safe?"

This got really contentious because someone asked "So apparently, rapists adopt shark eyes, too.What happens, physiologically, to have their eyes turn this way? " It seemed a fair question.
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Re: The Eyes Have It
#70: September 15, 2018, 10:31:07 PM
I think you make a fair point OR about trusting our own fear instincts. Not all of our spouses are physically violent but some are. All of them are emotionally abusive to different degrees.. And all of them blame others and see themselves as victims often. One of the hardest things for most LBS is accepting that the person we knew really IS doing what they are doing with no apparent empathy or concern about their previous values or persona or us. And most of us have seen the shark eyes.
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H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.


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Re: The Eyes Have It
#71: September 16, 2018, 08:30:22 AM
I want to agree with OR and Treasur.

I think that many MLCers are functional psychopaths. Psychopathy isn’t an emotional state, but a physical state of the brain. Unfortunately I think a lot of therapy operates on the level of “humors” when it comes to the brain. I really hope one day many therapy offices look at the brain like Amen Clinic, as a having a physical impact on emotion and behavior.

Until this time, many of us are faced with a double trauma of seeing something is horribly wrong with our spouse and not having others believe us. Shark eyes aren’t the only physical symptom of MLC. Some LBS wrote about their former spouse having an odd smell, aging rapidly, having a stiff gait, gaining weight in a certain pattern.

I think emotional and physical violence are deal breakers. If your former spouse “monsters” or hurts you in any way, go no contact. Early on, many LBS are in such a shock they can’t process what is happening. I know I myself went into a type of fantasy thinking that my ex would slowly wake up. I didn’t want to lose my family, my home, so much time with my son.

My ex has never harmed me physically but he could. He began purchasing a lot of guns and became obsessed with hunting soon into this. This did not just include shooting animals but also skinning, gutting, and dismembering them.

I also want to add, if your spouse has done something where you can press charges, like sexual assault, please press charges and get a restraining order. Protect your physical safety.
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Re: The Eyes Have It
#72: September 16, 2018, 10:10:13 AM
How do we know MLCERS go back to "normal",  BTW? From what is written here, it sure doesnt seem like they ALL do. I will also point out I said "likening" not "linking"  likening means like, as in "looks like"

Easy, I did, Ready2 did, all HS member who had a MLC did, my cousin who had a MLC did, everyone I know in real life whose crisis is done did, RCR's husband did, Stayed's husband did, everyone here reconciled knows it, etc.


Do I think the black eye/shark eye phenomenon is related to an emotional state? Yes. Do I think MLCers  and serial killers/rapists end up in an emotional state? Yes. It would be false logic to then say if serial killers/rapists and MLCers  both have the black eye phenomenon,  they are the same.

Except the black eyes things is not what most MLCer have. MLCers (most of them) have dead eyes/shark eyes, different from black eyes. Serial killer suffer from a PD, that is not emotional, that is neurological and they tend to had been born that way. Just lile pedophiles, who are also born that way because of a malfuction of the brain.

As for rapist, there are different types of rapist, the serial rapist (was the person born that way? who, like the serial rapist has a PD, therefore, not an emotional, but a brain issue), the war rapist, the guy who goes along belong he is with a gang, the domestic abuser, etc. Are they all in an emotional state? I have no idea.


It does not make sense to compare someone that is not emotional - serial killier and serial rapists, and narcisist (another PD, hence, not emotional), to MLCer that are emotional.

All of a sudden, it seems pretty much everyone on HS found out their spouse had PD traits, but, for whatever reason, the LBS never notice them before. Both weird and interesting.

This got really contentious because someone asked "So apparently, rapists adopt shark eyes, too.What happens, physiologically, to have their eyes turn this way? " It seemed a fair question.

No, it was black eyes. Black eyes and shark/dead eyes are not the same thing. It does not seem fair at all. Let alone coming from a woman whose husband is a rapist - her husband raped her. Therefore, I would say that, yes, when it comes to megogirl's husband he may have the same eyes rapist have because he is a rapist, but that does not apply to most MLCer, since most of our MLCer are not rapists.

And most of us have seen the shark eyes.

We have. But, again, the shark/dead eyes are not the eyes turning black.

I think that many MLCers are functional psychopaths.

I doubt, V. MLCers are emotional, psychopaths aren't.
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Re: The Eyes Have It
#73: September 16, 2018, 10:16:51 AM
How do we know MLCERS go back to "normal",  BTW? From what is written here, it sure doesnt seem like they ALL do. I will also point out I said "likening" not "linking"  likening means like, as in "looks like"

Easy, I did, Ready2 did, all HS member who had a MLC did, my cousin who had a MLC did, everyone I know in real life whose crisis is done did, RCR's husband did, Stayed's husband did, everyone here reconciled knows it, etc.

That is so funny! Because SOME people went back to normal, you say that proves they ALL do?  I don't think so, but as I said, you are entitled to your opinion.
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Re: The Eyes Have It
#74: September 16, 2018, 11:07:40 AM
In all fairness, I thought "shark" eyes WERE black.  Black-eyes is my only frame of reference, so apparently I've never seen "shark" eyes.

Thank you tho, OR - I was definitely surprised there was any backlash at my comment!
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Re: The Eyes Have It
#75: September 16, 2018, 11:18:27 AM
Pupil dilation is regulated by the sympathetic nervous system, the part of the body that controls our fight-or-flight response. So even when psychosis causes changes in pupil dilation, such as by triggering an excited state of fear or anger, the dilation itself is identical to dilation in the non-mentally ill.

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/explainer/2013/01/james_holmes_mental_illness_are_dilated_pupils_a_sign_of_mental_state.html


This is a minor issue compared to the other big issues on this thread about the likelihood of a violent offender being cured by a personality crisis. I think xyz's post is very on point. Sometimes something so bad can happen that cognitive dissonance attempts to normalize it so we don't go into a deeper state of trauma. We have all likely been there at least once during the course of this experience, though the causes may not have been so huge. Sometimes we have to define things in a different way for awhile until we're ready to tackle it. That may mean feeling a spouse is not as disordered as they actually are, or the opposite - seeing them as an extreme version of the crisis to justify more extreme detachment. Whatever it is, we do what we have to when we need to until we heal. Being an LBS, in stages, is also a crisis of its own.
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« Last Edit: September 16, 2018, 11:20:04 AM by Ready2Transform »

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Re: The Eyes Have It
#76: September 16, 2018, 11:28:22 AM
That is so funny! Because SOME people went back to normal, you say that proves they ALL do?  I don't think so, but as I said, you are entitled to your opinion.

I never said all. Nor do I recall anyone of HS ever saying all. I have always said most. It is also in the articles that MLC is, for most, temporary.

It is not some people, it is a lot of people. I did not mention everyone here who had a MLC, knows former MLCers, is reconcilled but has long stop posting, has a spouse wanting back, but the LBS is not interested, the threads that talk about former non HS members MLCer, etc.

Not sure I understand you OR. I always thought you believe in MLC, but, now, it does not seem so.

It is  a fact that MLCers go back to normal, but someone with a PD does not since the PD does not go away. It is also a fact that some MLCers remain stuck in MLC. Remain stuck in MLC is not the same as having a PD.

Of course your comment caused a backlash, megogirl. What were you expecting? Saying that someone said they noticed Harvey Weinstein'ss black eyes (one person, by the way. We have no idea if others saw the black eyes or didn't)  - I asked what colour are his eyes, but you didn't answer, saying your husband, a rapist, eyes turned black and going to MCLer's eyes are like rapist eyes, is not going to leave people pleased.

Most sharks eyes have a black cornea and blue iris. But shark eyes when applied to a MLCer or depressed person has more to do with empty, no one is one, no soul than the colour. MLCers, like depressed people, have dead eyes. There is no expression, no life, nothing, they are dead. Some MLCers even seem to have a veil that clouds their eyes.

This is a minor issue compared to the other big issues on this thread about the likelihood of a violent offender being cured by a personality crisis.

Agree. A violent offender is not going to be cured by MLC. He/she may be cured, or have treatment that will help him/her, but a MLC is not going to do it. Experts will, and we are not such experts.

OR, I think it would make more sense for you to be concerned with the fact that Megogirl's husband is a violent offender that has raped her, than with what is well known and has been talked about on HS for years on end, that MLCer do come out of MLC, and that MCL is, for most, a temporary condition.

As for you, Megogirl, it may be a good idea to allow yourself thinking time. 
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Re: The Eyes Have It
#77: September 16, 2018, 12:35:30 PM

My ex has never harmed me physically but he could. He began purchasing a lot of guns and became obsessed with hunting soon into this. This did not just include shooting animals but also skinning, gutting, and dismembering them.


Uhh, all animals we eat have been killed, skinned, gutted and dismembered. It's just that buying your meat at the supermarket makes you forget those stages.
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Re: The Eyes Have It
#78: September 16, 2018, 12:53:21 PM

My ex has never harmed me physically but he could. He began purchasing a lot of guns and became obsessed with hunting soon into this. This did not just include shooting animals but also skinning, gutting, and dismembering them.


Uhh, all animals we eat have been killed, skinned, gutted and dismembered. It's just that buying your meat at the supermarket makes you forget those stages.

I think Velika was referring to the extreme change in her H's behavior to do these things, not the developed world in general. Mine did the same thing - went from vegetarian Buddhist to an extreme interest in hunting and gore that was out of character. Would watch YouTube videos to purposely desensitize himself to gutting things, which didn't seem to be completely related to the sport of hunting to me at the time (he was just being more violent in general). I'd grown up around hunters and going to the butcher shop with my parents my whole life, so it wasn't an "ick" factor for me, but more of a red flag, as this was on the completely opposite end of the lifestyle spectrum for him.

For what it's worth, Velika, mine is now not just Buddhist again, but vegan (something he refused to do when we were vegetarians because he didn't want to give up dairy). He and the OW went from planning to be pig farmers, to raising chickens, to now being extremists on the other end. I have no idea if he ever actually hunted or if it was just part of his public masculine mask. But you might give it a few years and see if the pendulum swings back again.
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Re: The Eyes Have It
#79: September 16, 2018, 12:57:42 PM
I think if a person grows up doing those things, that's fine you're used to it, but it would be pretty disturbing to have man start doing this in middle age.    I would have thought it very strange, almost shocking, had my H started killing and gutting animals in his crisis.  He never hunted, or even owned a gun in his life.

I'm assuming the same with Velika's X.
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Re: The Eyes Have It
#80: September 16, 2018, 01:24:23 PM
I think the issue with V's husband is the obsession part and it being a new, crisis thing.

For what it's worth, Velika, mine is now not just Buddhist again, but vegan (something he refused to do when we were vegetarians because he didn't want to give up dairy). He and the OW went from planning to be pig farmers, to raising chickens, to now being extremists on the other end.

Talk about changes and then some.


Back to MLCers' eyes. Currently (there is a batch of new DJ promo photos) Mr J's eyes and face are very, very stange. Not only the eyes still look dead and have narrowed, both the pupils as well as the eye dimension, his right eye is much, much lower than his left eye and almost closed. The eye lid nearly covers all the eye.

And there are huge, saggy, eye bags as well. His face is also asymmetrical, right side much different than the left side, his cheeks look puffy and swallowed at the same time (weird, I know), his hair seems thin. His finger look chubby, they were always slim and he looks like hell, without single sign of happiness.

He looks like someone who has not had any sleep in years, he looks hagard, miserable, hopeless, sad.  For reference, Mr J looks much worse than Ben Affleck.


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Re: The Eyes Have It
#81: September 16, 2018, 01:36:49 PM
I think the issue with V's husband is the obsession part and it being a new, crisis thing.

For what it's worth, Velika, mine is now not just Buddhist again, but vegan (something he refused to do when we were vegetarians because he didn't want to give up dairy). He and the OW went from planning to be pig farmers, to raising chickens, to now being extremists on the other end.

Talk about changes and then some.


Back to MLCers' eyes. Currently (there is a batch of new DJ promo photos) Mr J's eyes and face are very, very stange. Not only the eyes still look dead and have narrowed, both the pupils as well as the eye dimension, his right eye is much, much lower than his left eye and almost closed. The eye lid nearly covers all the eye.

And there are huge, saggy, eye bags as well. His face is also asymmetrical, right side much different than the left side, his cheeks look puffy and swallowed at the same time (weird, I know), his hair seems thin. His finger look chubby, they were always slim and he looks like hell, without single sign of happiness.

He looks like someone who has not had any sleep in years, he looks hagard, miserable, hopeless, sad.  For reference, Mr J looks much worse than Ben Affleck.

I think what we all want, most of all, is for this to be understood and recognized as an illness.

"Shark eyes" is a shared observation that comes up with many, many new LBS. This is probably one of the most unifying physical symptom of MLC that I have seen discussed on this forum.

Because of the consistency of this phenomenon, it makes sense to ask: "Where else is this observed and why?"

One of the first things the "high energy monster" MLCer loses is empathy and self-awareness. (The "wallowers" seem to have more self awareness I think.) This and shark eyes seem to be two defining features of this condition. (I would also add accelerated aging perhaps.)
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Re: The Eyes Have It
#82: September 16, 2018, 01:45:20 PM
Of course your comment caused a backlash, megogirl. What were you expecting?

I hardly expected that, because in my mind, I made a totally innocuous comment.

I asked what colour are his eyes, but you didn't answer,

H's eyes are brown, but why does that even matter?

They were not at all "normal"...so I easily related to the victim of HW on GMA, and presumed all LBS's could relate, too....

Guess I'm the only LBS with a scary Monster.  Why does RCR make it seem otherwise, like all MLC'ers are Monsters?
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« Last Edit: September 16, 2018, 01:57:19 PM by megogirl »

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Re: The Eyes Have It
#83: September 16, 2018, 02:01:47 PM
Hi Megogirl,

I don't think they are all Monsters, but some sure are.  The ugly name calling and degrading their spouse, but some just don't have it in them to Monster.  Mine tried but Monster takes a lot of energy.  Wallower's just don't have that energy.
They just wallow in their misery.

But they are no better or worse.  They either Monster at you or they act like you don't exist which is equally hurtful.
There were times when I wanted him to get mad so I could see some emotion in him, but there was none.

I agree Velika they ALL have the same dead, empty eyes.  Almost spacy looking.

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Re: The Eyes Have It
#84: September 16, 2018, 02:02:57 PM
I think what we all want, most of all, is for this to be understood and recognized as an illness.

I wouldn't mind, but saying that MLCer are like rapist and serial killers is not going to help.

"Shark eyes" is a shared observation that comes up with many, many new LBS. This is probably one of the most unifying physical symptom of MLC that I have seen discussed on this forum.

It is. But it does not have to do with the colour. It has to do with dead eyes. Therefore, eyes turning black is not the main thing most LBS see on their MLCer eyes. It is the fact that the eyes are dead, soulless, lifeless. Different than colour.

Because of the consistency of this phenomenon, it makes sense to ask: "Where else is this observed and why?"

In depression. Dead/shark eyes are present in many depressed people. That has been mentioned over the years on HS.

Ted Bundy's eyes are beautiful, lively and captivating, not shark eyes at all. Yet, he was a serial killer.

I searched for Harvey Weinstein's eye colour since Mego didn't answered me. He has dark brown eyes. Dark brown, in the dark, without much light, or with certain emotions will look like black. I have dark brown eyes, at times they can look black. If Weinstein had bright blues eyes that turned black it would be one thing, dark brown eyes turning or looking black does't mean much.

One of the first things the "high energy monster" MLCer loses is empathy and self-awareness. (The "wallowers" seem to have more self awareness I think.)

Don't know if Wallowers have more self-awareness. They are more openly depressed, so it easier to see it as depression. My cousin who had MLC was a Wallower. He didn't had much, if any, self-awareness. But it was easy for us, and everyone who knew him to see he was depressed. He always refers to his crisis as "my depression", never as a crisis. Other people I know from real life who had MLC, also refer to it as "their depression" or "when I was unwell".

I would also add accelerated aging perhaps.

Not sure about this. Mr J looks a mess, but it is clear he is not very old. And for many years he looked younger than he is. He still does, just a real mess.

Never have seen any LBS before you thinking they had anything to do with a HW victim. You may had make the link because of your husband, but not the rest of us.

I have a scary monster MLCer. Savy, In It, LP, and a few others have scary monster MLCers who tried do kill us. If you think a MCLer that has tried to kill us is not scary, not sure what you call scary.

What RCR means by monster is that pretty much all High Energy MLCers, and even some Wallowers, monster. But some monster more than others and some are more scrary horrible than others.

You have something different than a MLCer, you have a husband that was already abusive.

P.S. now you have answered, Mego.  His eyes are dark brown, not just brown. It matters because dark brown eyes can look black depending of the light.
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Re: The Eyes Have It
#85: September 16, 2018, 02:03:48 PM
I agree Velika they ALL have the same dead, empty eyes.  Almost spacy looking.

This. Nothing to do with colour/black.
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Re: The Eyes Have It
#86: September 16, 2018, 02:17:38 PM
In all fairness, I thought "shark" eyes WERE black.  Black-eyes is my only frame of reference, so apparently I've never seen "shark" eyes.

Thank you tho, OR - I was definitely surprised there was any backlash at my comment!
No worries, to each their own. My ex had blue eyes, but his shark eyes looked black. Pupil dilation would explain it, so I found that really informative.

I was concerned for your safety, but do I understand your MLCer  lives elsewhere, so you are currently safe?  If you have to interact with him, please keep yourself safe. Also, I realize you are standing, but considering some of what I have read, consider what your H was like before MLC, and think carefully if getting back together would be in your best interests if he returns to any thing similar to any abusive behaviors described.
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Re: The Eyes Have It
#87: September 16, 2018, 03:13:48 PM
No, I'm safe, thanks.

His past behavior is in the past.  His Monstering behavior is in my present.  All acts of violence have taken place while he's been in Monster.

Therefore, I think I can safely blame his MLC for his indiscretions.  Has he SAID nasty things in the past?  Yes, but all couples fight, and I knew I was marrying a temper.

We don't speak at all, which I know isn't conducive to anything, but it is what it is.

He has maneuvered a stay-away order from the State of NY against me.  Therefore, if I tried to report his various crimes, he'll have that right in his back pocket to pull out.  An evil genius!

Monster, indeed....   
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« Last Edit: September 16, 2018, 03:14:55 PM by megogirl »

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Re: The Eyes Have It
#88: September 16, 2018, 04:19:08 PM
I'm sorry Mego.

What did he use against you for that stay away order?  What did he claim you did?

Sadly it is always "he said, she said."  They never really know the whole truth.
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Re: The Eyes Have It
#89: September 16, 2018, 04:31:18 PM
I did NOTHING to him....only her, but of course made it about him as well....

I left a snarky letter in her mailbox about Affairing Down.  It described exactly why, and how, she was/is an Affair Down.  I left my letter, along with RCR's article on Affairing Down, and 4 pix of me & H.  I love RCR so much that I figured I'd share her brilliance!

Snarky yes, albeit quite informative! Ha ha

Anyway that got me arrested for harassment....and, knowing he needed legal smut against me, he finagled his way into the fray.

The weird thing is that I don't regret any of it AT. ALL.
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« Last Edit: September 16, 2018, 04:47:36 PM by megogirl »

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Re: The Eyes Have It
#90: September 16, 2018, 05:08:41 PM
I did NOTHING to him....only her, but of course made it about him as well....

I left a snarky letter in her mailbox about Affairing Down.  It described exactly why, and how, she was/is an Affair Down.  I left my letter, along with RCR's article on Affairing Down, and 4 pix of me & H.  I love RCR so much that I figured I'd share her brilliance!

Snarky yes, albeit quite informative! Ha ha

Anyway that got me arrested for harassment....and, knowing he needed legal smut against me, he finagled his way into the fray.

The weird thing is that I don't regret any of it AT. ALL.

Oh wow, what state are you in? My ex OW has routinely contacted me with unwanted texts, a letter, and even flowers. (On my birthday.)

Was it harassment because it was negative? I don't understand. People send negative mails/posts/etc. all the time.

I would consider, since he was violent toward you, to still get a restraining order. It is possible the earlier abuse was him on a decline. I think many of us can see that the first symptoms predated bomb drop.
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Re: The Eyes Have It
#91: September 16, 2018, 05:09:49 PM
Of course your comment caused a backlash, megogirl. What were you expecting?
Guess I'm the only LBS with a scary Monster.  Why does RCR make it seem otherwise, like all MLC'ers are Monsters?

You're not the only one. There are lots of scary ones, sadly.
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Re: The Eyes Have It
#92: September 16, 2018, 05:30:45 PM
I did NOTHING to him....only her, but of course made it about him as well....

I left a snarky letter in her mailbox about Affairing Down.  It described exactly why, and how, she was/is an Affair Down.  I left my letter, along with RCR's article on Affairing Down, and 4 pix of me & H.  I love RCR so much that I figured I'd share her brilliance!

Snarky yes, albeit quite informative! Ha ha

Anyway that got me arrested for harassment....and, knowing he needed legal smut against me, he finagled his way into the fray.

The weird thing is that I don't regret any of it AT. ALL.



You did what? And included a RCR article that will be traced back to HS? HS is a safe space for LBS. It is not for MLCers and their alienator to be aware of. You have put us all in danger. Either careless LBS or LBS with too controling and snoopy MLCers allowed their MLCer and alienators to come here, at times even creating an account.


You may be a big fan of RCR, but you got it all wrong. RCR clearly says to not to mess with OW/OM, to stay away form them and ignore them.

You also don't understand that by getting to your husband's OW you are only making him stick more to her and treat you worst.

Look, you may had been upset, but you were out of line with that snarly letter on OW's mail box. It can been seen as harassment. And it was. You were the perfect example of the woman scorned, of the crazy ex-wife.

If I was a MLCer, I would also have used it agains you. What were you (not) thinking?

You may not regret it, but you can't complain you got arrested for harassment. You harassed someone and when down to OW's level.

You need to gain self-respect, Mego.


Yes, V, People send negative mails/posts/etc. all the time, and then, sometimes, they find themselves in real troubles, including arrested.

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Re: The Eyes Have It
#93: September 16, 2018, 05:37:36 PM
Was it harassment because it was negative? I don't understand. People send negative mails/posts/etc. all the time.

LOL I guess you could say it was "negative"....I just pointed out all the facts I had that I'd identified as an "Affair-Down" (ie. that she was a divorcee at only 33 yrs.)

Anyway, it was probably harassment but again, she'd been "annoying" to me for over a year (that's the legal definition of harassment) so I've zero regrets......
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Re: The Eyes Have It
#94: September 16, 2018, 05:45:21 PM
Look, you may had been upset, but you were out of line with that snarly letter on OW's mail box. It can been seen as harassment. And it was. You were the perfect example of the woman scorned, of the crazy ex-wife.

Are you kidding me?!?

You just used the words "out of line" to someone who has been BANGING MY HUSBAND since summer 2016.

If they call me want to a "crazy wife"....so be it!

All I had was my ability to write....so I did!
 
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« Last Edit: September 16, 2018, 05:46:41 PM by megogirl »

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Re: The Eyes Have It
#95: September 16, 2018, 05:46:40 PM
How does being a divorcee at 33 make someone a lesser person? There are many lbs here who were divorced young and then remarried.

She’s an affair down simply by virtue of the fact that she was willing to be involved with a married man and break up a family. But I don’t get the thinking that her having a previous divorce factors in at all.

I also have to agree, leading an MLCer to this site is really not a great thing to do.
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Re: The Eyes Have It
#96: September 16, 2018, 05:50:35 PM
No he's known that I've followed RCR since 2016, so it was nothing new......

And I just pointed out how her status as 33-year-old divorcee was pathetic and sad so, yay.....here's someone in a LONG-TERM MARRIAGE!
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« Last Edit: September 16, 2018, 05:55:08 PM by megogirl »

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Re: The Eyes Have It
#97: September 16, 2018, 05:55:19 PM
Being a divorcee at 33 is what makes her an affair down? How exactly do you think someone will react being told that they are an affair down, even if they are one? Not well, I would say.

And, like Nas said, e many lbs here who were divorced young and then remarried. There are also LBS here 33, younger or a litlle old you found themselves divorced because of MLC.

You just used the words "out of line" to someone who has been BANGING MY HUSBAND since summer 2016.

You were out of line. The fact that OW has been sleeping with your husband since summer 2016 does not negate you were our of line. You were so out of line you were arrested for harassment.

All I had was my ability to write....so I did!

No, you had the ability to take the high road and stay out of it. You don't regret what you did, fine, but please stop trying to makes be sorry you were arrestd for harassment. You seem to like drama as much as your MLCer and his OW.

Not just leading a MCLer, leading the OW as well. Terrible thing to do to us all.

Your behaviour is very, very strange and troubling. In every way and sense. Including your MLCer knowing you've followed RCR since 2016. We do not tell our MLCer we are on a site for LBS.

You keep saying you admire RCR so much, yet you do everything she advices against and don't seem to have understood a thing of what she wrote.
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Re: The Eyes Have It
#98: September 16, 2018, 05:58:30 PM
I'm sorry Mego, 

I wrote you a very long response and lost it. Dang.

Please just do not send him or her anything about MLC, they will only think you are in denial.

NOT worth your energy.



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Re: The Eyes Have It
#99: September 16, 2018, 06:05:04 PM
The fact that OW has been sleeping with your husband since summer 2016 does not negate you were our of line.

Be that as it may, how unfortunate is it that I can not have HER arrested for harassing my very FAMILY?!??

This is just the hugest of WTF's....what's the cliche?  SLASHING TIRES.....I only wrote a (snarky) letter!


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« Last Edit: September 16, 2018, 06:07:38 PM by megogirl »

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Re: The Eyes Have It
#100: September 16, 2018, 06:10:21 PM
Please just do not send him or her anything about MLC, they will only think you are in denial.

She already did and got arrested for arrasement.

Be that as it may, how unfortunate is it that I can not have HER arrested for harassing my very FAMILY?!??

Your husband had, and is having an affair with her. Different things. If anyone harrased your family it was your. He is the married one, he is the one who left. You have, and are, miss directing your anger at OW. Your husband is the one responsible for the break of the family.

I think you should go read and re-read all of RCR articles and blog posts. There is a lot you need to learn and understand.
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Re: The Eyes Have It
#101: September 16, 2018, 06:24:17 PM
No....that isn't necessary, at all.  I can basically recite RCR's words (I'm that enamored of her writing ability.)

I know she said not to retaliate.  I read it.  But I felt I had to do *something*.  I am 4.5 hours away, having no idea what he's been doing!

Perhaps I was "out of line" to leave a letter....and I paid the (legal) price for it....but it was my only option, other than slashing her tires (which I figured was cliche, and only would have been considered vandalism anyway!)

Sorry, but I think leaving a snarky letter is a small-damn-price-to-pay for BANGING SOMEONE ELSE'S HUSBAND.

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« Last Edit: September 16, 2018, 06:55:23 PM by megogirl »

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Re: The Eyes Have It
#102: September 16, 2018, 06:32:29 PM
MLC is not about the OW.....it is his crisis. She is just one of the many manifestations of the crisis. MLC 101

Yes, knowledge of the  OW hurts us terribly but we can limit the amount of hurt by understanding that she means nothing.

Actually, I feel sorry for the poor women.

To others reading this thread, PLEASE DO NOT SHARE ANY DETAILS ABOUT HERO'S SPOUSE WITH YOUR MLCER! Information that has been discovered on HS has been used by the MLCer in court to use against the LBSer.
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« Last Edit: September 16, 2018, 06:34:34 PM by xyzcf »
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

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Re: The Eyes Have It
#103: September 16, 2018, 06:36:45 PM
Oh, I know....

OW is absolutely NOTHING.  I get that.  H even told me such (whilst in Prisoner mode/a brief pocket of clarity), "I don't want her.  I want my family!"

She's still annoying and needs to GHOL.......
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Re: The Eyes Have It
#104: September 16, 2018, 06:38:48 PM
Your only option of what?

She is only sleeping with your husband because he allowed it and his sleeping with her. It takes two to tango.

And what is the price to pay for a husband that is sleeping with someone else? Not only that, but has destroyed his family, been abusive to his spouse, etc?

Why does she has to pay a price for his cheating? He should pay the full price and double.

OW being annoying is not a reason.

I don't fell sorry at all for Mr J's OW1 or OW2. Number 1 knew he was married, understood he was depressed and make her move. But he is the one responsible for everything that happened.

Like RCR says, how didn't you want to hurt me? You don't know what you were doing? Inserting slot A in slot B and all the plotting of the affair is not know what you are doing?

Mr J knew not only what he was doing by having an affair with OW - I am talking about before he left - but that what he was doing was wrong.

OW2 decided to pick the broken hearted guy that has broke with whom she thought was his girfriend, OW1 and since saw her away into calling the shots. None of those women has my sympathy. Nor does Mr J.
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Re: The Eyes Have It
#105: September 16, 2018, 06:51:33 PM
She is only sleeping with your husband because he allowed it and his sleeping with her. It takes two to tango.

Indeed!  No bones here whatsoever....

But he has been subjected to something called MLC, and she has not.

Why does she has to pay a price for his cheating?

Because she knows he has a freaking FAMILY!!

Case-officially-CLOSED.
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« Last Edit: September 16, 2018, 07:03:31 PM by megogirl »

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Re: The Eyes Have It
#106: September 16, 2018, 07:00:41 PM
How do you know she has not? Or that she doesn't have other issues? Usually, alienators have issues of their own. Or maybe she is in love with him as you were with your friend's boyfriend. She is as entitled to a mistake as you were.

His MLC does not excuse him from what he is doing. It explains it. He is 100% responsible for his actions and that includes getting involved with someone else and be with her.

In fact, since you were once OW, you really can't go after someone for being what you once were. It is illogical. Yet, you created all that drama.
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Re: The Eyes Have It
#107: September 16, 2018, 07:19:29 PM
Or maybe she is in love with him as you were with your friend's boyfriend.

Holy crap, NO.  I was NOT in love with him.  I was just in awe that he'd wanted ME, at all (even as an OW)!

I was so wrapped-up in the drama of playing my role of "Kelly Taylor" that I forgot about my BFF in the process.

It happened 25 firetrucking years ago though?!?

His MLC does not excuse him from what he is doing

Never-have-I-ever called his crap an excuse...only the reason.
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« Last Edit: September 16, 2018, 07:25:42 PM by megogirl »

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Re: The Eyes Have It
#108: September 16, 2018, 09:38:01 PM
You traveled 4.5 hours to deposit a letter in her mailbox without a stamp? Putting something in someone's mailbox is a Federal crime!

I could say a lot more but I don't want to stoop to your level, so I will stick with the above factual statement.





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Re: The Eyes Have It
#109: September 16, 2018, 11:36:54 PM
Anger is understandable and many of us feel angry towards and ow/om but, mego, the advice here is healthy
find another more constructive way to use the anger

ow/om don't care what you think or feel
neither does your h right now
and both will feed off your reactions in a way which fits 'their' story
basic physics really...an action produces a reaction...and the best FU is be too important in your own life to even bother with people who are disordered and self-centred and who do not wish you well
best way to treat an 'affair down' is not to respond as if it/they have power over you

what's done is done
but please step away from feeding the drama, mego, it truly won't serve you
the rule of 3 is a good way to make a space between feelings and what we do with them
and the magic disappearance of ow/om will not 'fix' any problem that you need to fix imho
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H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
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Re: The Eyes Have It
#110: September 17, 2018, 12:20:52 AM
Anger is understandable and many of us feel angry towards and ow/om but, mego, the advice here is healthy
find another more constructive way to use the anger

ow/om don't care what you think or feel
neither does your h right now
and both will feed off your reactions in a way which fits 'their' story
basic physics really...an action produces a reaction...and the best FU is be too important in your own life to even bother with people who are disordered and self-centred and who do not wish you well
best way to treat an 'affair down' is not to respond as if it/they have power over you

what's done is done
but please step away from feeding the drama, mego, it truly won't serve you
the rule of 3 is a good way to make a space between feelings and what we do with them
and the magic disappearance of ow/om will not 'fix' any problem that you need to fix imho

I think many of us have been in terrible shock and are acting out of character at times. Also, not everyone is aware of the laws! I didn't know that it was illegal to put something in someone's mailbox. I've dropped off lots of cards, etc. this way.

I think however, maybe this should be an important notice to anyone. My ex OW has contacted me many times and even attempted to meet. What you have written, Treasur, made me think that it is probably safest not to have face-to-face interactions. Both for my own well being but also, it is best not to subject yourself to any kind of anything that could be turned into a liability. (For example, false accusation etc.)
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Re: The Eyes Have It
#111: September 17, 2018, 12:43:28 AM
i think keeping it simple helped me...i have never contacted ow and have ignored sporadic 'anonymous' notes and blocked any social media links as soon as i knew who she was.
have i chewed on it occasionally...of course
but the simple truths are:
- our spouses lie and it's unlikely they lie only to us and there are lots of things i don't/can't know
- both ow/om and our spouses do not have our feelings, needs or interests on their radar screen
- both have a vested interest in their own 'story' but their story is not mine and i don't want to be part of it
- if my feelings were irrelevant post-BD after 18 shared years, they are unlikely to be more relevant now to either of them or to their RL friends and family supporters

so, although at times i longed to shout and be heard, still do occasionally want to blast his family or friends or Katie the a$$hat celebrant or him even, i have always just about managed to see that my (natural) wish to be heard matters only to me and is wasted and self-destructive to voice with people who simply don't care what I think or feel or believe i have no right to be heard

i don't think it was right that my h unleashed a cold insane hell on his wife when she was bereaved, or ended his marriage by ghosting his wife or stealing or lying or showing no respect or empathy after 18 years or filing when I had cancer or making the divorce process as hard, confusing, drawn out and costly as he did or having no conversation, giving no explanation or recognition or even goodbye or publicly describing our life as a worthless prelude and remarrying within weeks. It sucks and I deserved better and I did my best to treat my h with calm respect that was absolutely one-sided. There were a ton of quite small things that my h - and even ow - could have done or not done to still get what they wanted without p***ing all over me, my past and my life.
But evidently my h and ow and some others in RL thought that was all just fine, or were told a different story.

And ow is a stranger who didn't make promises to me or owe me the respect that my h did. I may not like the little i've seen of her or her own bit of crazy, but mostly i resent my h inviting her agenda into his life and our marriage and consequently my life...but it was his choice to do so. But I always felt it was a disordered invitation that I had the right to refuse where I could. I could not stop the crazy or people wanting to hurt or threaten me...but I could say no and make it much harder for them to do so, in my case by moving and cutting the potential contact doors to it as we have no kids or reason to have any contact post-divorce.

do i still have moments of disbelief, anger or frustration where i want to shout out? yup...but i save them for people who give a damn and don't want to hurt me...much better investment  :)
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« Last Edit: September 17, 2018, 12:59:28 AM by Treasur »
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.


"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

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Re: The Eyes Have It
#112: September 17, 2018, 04:23:36 AM
"I could say a lot more but I don't want to stoop to your level"

Please let's not disrespect other LBS.  That was unnecessary.


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A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

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Re: The Eyes Have It
#113: September 17, 2018, 04:38:32 AM
agree with Thunder - it was unnecessary so please don't take it personally, says more about the person who said it than you, mego
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T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.


"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

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Re: The Eyes Have It
#114: September 17, 2018, 05:45:04 AM
You traveled 4.5 hours to deposit a letter in her mailbox without a stamp? Putting something in someone's mailbox is a Federal crime!

Actually NO, I was going there anyway.....custody exchange....long story.

And NO, I did not know it was illegal, but thank you for sharing all of your valuable legal knowledge!

Please tell me....are you always Regina George, or just on the internet?
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Re: The Eyes Have It
#115: September 17, 2018, 06:37:49 AM
Funny, mego...but don't take the bait
There you go, the universe is giving you a chance to feel p**ed but ignore someone else's unpleasant behaviour LOL - unintended free practice gift  :D
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T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.


"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

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Re: The Eyes Have It
#116: September 17, 2018, 09:58:22 AM
LOL Treaur....

It actually takes a while to get me to snap....or someone threatening my family (Mama Bear comes OUT.)
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Re: The Eyes Have It
#117: September 28, 2018, 10:20:03 AM
I just want to share my experience about my MLCer's eyes. He had all the eyes, shark eyes, black eyes, blank eyes. My H's eyes are blue, yet the times I saw him when he was in monster, or in his crisis, or selfish, or not himself his eyes were black, no colour. On the times I saw him and he was himself to me, his eyes were blue again. That was only a couple of times since BD. I couldn't help but notice this.

Then there are what I consider shark eyes. These are slitty eyes with little concentration. Eyes that seem to dart and evade looking straight at me.

Then there are the eyes that I see often in his photos since BD, blank. He might be smiling in his photos, but his eyes are not.

My H has aged drastically since BD. To me he was extremely attractive and fit right until a couple of months after BD. Now he's completely white, looks 70, worried, stressed, puffy around the eyes, like I'm feeling tonight, but I'm exhausted and have a fever. 
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Married 1989, together since 1984 
BD May 2014,
D26, D23, S16
OW Physical Affair same one. He and she said she turned 34 the month of BD. She turned 52 this year.

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Re: The Eyes Have It
#118: August 20, 2019, 06:45:08 AM
Thought this was worth bumping in case any LBS here has seen this and doubted their sanity  :) bc as you can see, lots of us have seen it even if we are not sure what causes it. There seems to be some debate in the psychiatry world if pupil dilation is linked to the fight/flight bit of the brain...and may be more common with personality disorders or types of depression or schizophrenia...but it IS a thing.

So validation for those of you who have seen it.
Maybe a chance for some encouragement from older timers who have seen it go as their spouses start to recover?

https://www.chumplady.com/2019/08/the-dead-eyed-stare-3/

I saw two types.
The dead eye of depression initially...kind of hollow, empty, a bit frightened, lost maybe.
Then after maybe 6 months or so the shark eye which tbh was quite frightening...a different kind of no one there but more malevolent. It absolutely felt like he would walk over my dying body, as if he was something potentially unpredictable and dangerous.
The last time I saw him in Oct 16, shark eyes...probably why I refused to see him again.
The last photo I saw of him about March this year, as I recall, back to dead eyes and that rather rigid face many of us have seen too. I have NC of course so no idea if his eyes today would be full of sparkle and light and warmth as they used to be. But I am absolutely confident that if I saw my xh in RL I would know the state of his head by simply looking into his eyes, no words needed.
Not how normal people's eyes look at all but another one of those things we see and folks in RL often have no idea what we are talking about.

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« Last Edit: August 20, 2019, 06:54:53 AM by Treasur »
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.


"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

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Re: The Eyes Have It
#119: August 20, 2019, 06:52:02 AM
Their eyes start to awaken as they starting to awaken. Like newborn start to use eyes again. It is amazing.

Matthew 6:22-23
22 “The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are healthy,[a] your whole body will be full of light. 23 But if your eyes are unhealthy, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!
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« Last Edit: August 20, 2019, 07:50:36 AM by Albatross »

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Re: The Eyes Have It
#120: August 22, 2019, 12:50:47 PM
I have seen the sunk in blank look in my x’s eyes that usually accompany a face full of hatred and anger. I swear if looks could kill I would have been dead along time ago. Sadly, I have also seen the shark eyes and never want to see them again. I have had to see the x a few times the past couple of weeks and seen the dark blank stare with the look of death but have also seen those baby blue eyes this last time. He has been extra nice to me during our sons games. The cousin has been away for 3 weeks so I’m not sure if that had something to do with it. He has seemed almost excited to see me and sad when I said that I wasn’t staying very long.  And for the first time in 3 years,  I was able to see his beautiful blue eyes again. I can’t imagine that his change of attitude towards me and the color of his eyes were a coincidence.
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M 40
H 41
He moved out May 21,2017
Ow 41( his 1st cousin) moved her in May 23, 2017, she went back to her husband Oct 2017
Ow moved back with her 2 kids Jan 1 2018 even with courts cutting his visitation with his kids because of it
Ow moved out again Dec 2019 and is back with her husband Jan 2020
T-19 yr M-14 yrs
S14 & D88
BD  February 12 2017 & April 22 2017 (signs of MLC since 2015)
I filed for divorce June 2 2017 for protection- final hearing on our 20th anniversary (July 11,2018) divorce was final August 9, 2018

http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8791.0
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8948.0
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=9189.0
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=10052.150

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Re: The Eyes Have It
#121: August 22, 2019, 05:20:11 PM
Mr J didn't had dead eyes until the second half of 2009, almost three years after BD. Since, he has mostly have them. Of late, at times, there is some some spark, but he is nowhere near waking up.

Mr J was evil nasty physically agressive monster years before his eyes become dead. How were his eyes when he was being physically violent? I don't remember. Looking into his eyes was the last thing on my mind.
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Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

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Re: The Eyes Have It
#122: August 22, 2019, 10:57:12 PM
Heres a Little song that I wrote a while back. i may have posted it on one of my older Threads but it should fit in here nicely too. XW is going to go mad when she hears this (and she will), it will be on our next Album :-)

Shark Eyes
Black holes looking straight through me
My skin crawls at the memory
No soul, no hope just emptiness
Enough to shock the best of us
Fills my days and haunt my nights
All it wants is to b!tc# and fight
Hurting all that stands in its way
Spitting lies, hate, denial and blame

Shark eyes, where the devil hides
Where the angels cry and the demons thrive
Shark eyes, windows to your soul
How was I to know that you’d lost control?
Those shark eyes, where the devil hides, where the devil hides.

Turn away and try to live your life
From Shark eyes you’ve nowhere to hide
Suck you in and play you for a fool
It don’t care and it breaks all the rules
Tell you just what you want to hear
Just to keep you suspended in fear
Keep you waiting where you used to be
Feeding off your humanity

Shark eyes, where the devil hides
Where the angels cry and the demons thrive
Shark eyes, windows to your soul
How was I to know that you’d lost control?
Those shark eyes, where the devil hides, where the devil hides.

When the eye of the shark is upon you
There’s nothing left to say or to do
When you eye of the shark is upon you
There’s nothing left to say or to do
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Married - 19,5 Years pre BD
Together - 21,5 Years
Me: 46
W: 46 (Acts 25)
BD 1: 10.01.2017
BD 2: 24.02.2017 OM 28 (now 31) Trainings partner. Is tolerated by LaFamiglia
2 Sons - 20 & 21
1 Dogs and a cat.
Own home . Sold!
Divorce Date 21.08.2018
T1  http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8671.0

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Re: The Eyes Have It
#123: August 23, 2019, 09:24:51 AM
I can now see more alive eyes of my wife. I did not see in her eyes monster very long time ago. But what is very interesting is when she connect with her inner child her eyes become very different like eyes of little girl with so much excitement and joy, happiness ! Her whole personality becoming completely different ! Her body language, posture energy shift ! I believe others spot that too. It is firetrucking unbelievable. Best part is that she is not aware of that, and that small girl do not give damn. She is (little girl) who she is. After that pass, she become self as usual. Go figure !
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