[amazinglove]

Link to my old thread
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=12129.0

Lots of things sinking in right about now. It's been a tough old week. Is it acceptance that this is my new single parent reality? Maybe. A confrontation of the brutal facts of my MLC H's disinterest, lack of care, selfishness, entitlement? Likely.

Here's what I'd like to work on. Detachment. Someone on here wiser than me said something like (and forgive me if I paraphrase) "Apathy is not caring about the outcome, detachment is being ok with either outcome". I want to work on more of that.

I would love to get the group's reaction to the quote below:

"When you wait for a man to make up his mind about you, your life cannot move forward. You can't put your whole heart in anything else if you're betting on something that may not come through. You can build the life of your dreams without him. You can start today. But first, you need to take your heart off the table. You have a few precious years to do what you need to do. Don't waste them on him.”
― Lang Leav, September Love

That's the crux of my struggle. How do I take my heart off the table? How do I heal with him visiting to see kids, calling them on video calls, dipping in and out of fatherhood? Staying married. I have really appreciated the wisdom on here about how standing can be good for the LBS not just the MLC'er. (thanks French Husband) because when/if I do file, I will have already (hopefully) found my solid ground. leveled out, 'slowed my roll' (Treasur!) , dealt with a breadth of emotions, and I can then better help my children process theirs.

I just have to not care that my actual husband no longer loves me and cheats on me  with other women. That is something I'm struggling with. it feels like a lie. I realise I've asked this q before and some of you say, then walk away but don't discuss it with him, just file when you are sure, and some of you say, hold the line and put up with this (with boundaries) for as long as you can, giving both you and him as much space and time as possible.

And I guess that's what I'm going to do.  Oh and no one can say for you, how long is, 'as long as you can'.

But right now I need to figure out how take my heart off the table.


(thread tittle - attributable to NYT writer Brooks Atkinson)

[FaithWalker]

Welcome to your new thread.  I've attached this link to your old thread and locked that one. 

My H was quick to divorce, but I still stood for my marriage after the divorce.  I envisioned taking my heart out and locking it away in a box until as such time as I might need it again.  I'm not sure if it worked or not.  Of course I still had my heart for my children, I just had to maintain a quiet and peaceful resolve about him and his shenanigans.  That lasted until he got remarried although I had one period in between where I flirted with the possibility of giving up and dating around the 2 1/2 year mark of standing.

[Reinventing]

"How do I heal"?

Find things that give you time with your tribe.

Notice things that divert your attention from the pain and do more of those.

Exercise can help.

You can't avoid the pain, but focus on you. Read about healing and how to manage pain.

You are a resourceful woman. Use that toward your healing. Rely on things that don't have to do with him so your healing is dependable.

You can do this.

[xyzcf]

"How do I heal"?

I did all the things Reinventing suggests and then some.But I remained "stuck" until I found a therapist who identified that I was suffering from PTSD. Without her intervention, I would not be where I am today.

Because the trauma of what happened is real...it is not just a love affair gone bad...there are layers and layers of issues to face when life is suddenly blown apart and you are helpless to resolve any of it.There is not a checklist that you can go through to "get over it".

Therapy was lengthy and expensive...many here could not have afforded what I paid to heal.

Here's what I'd like to work on. Detachment.

Personally, I dislike this word "detachment". Acceptance of my reality feels better. Building a life without him makes more sense with the acknowledgement that on some level, he will always be on the periphery of my life.

Could it be that by trying to "detach" puts a great deal of pressure on you if you feel you are not succeeding?

There are memories, feelings, emotions, thoughts of the time we were together that cannot be erased..I guess "not responding in a way that harms us " is a way to describe detachment.

Our feelings are not like a tap that can be turned off just because we tell them to.

And for some, especially when there are children, it might not be possible to have a complete disconnect...so my question is ...how does one adapt so that contact doesn't shake us up?

It all takes much more time amazinglove than we ever thought it would. Even those who divorce quickly, remain in a fight to heal.

My thoughts on this quote:

"When you wait for a man to make up his mind about you, your life cannot move forward. You can't put your whole heart in anything else if you're betting on something that may not come through. You can build the life of your dreams without him. You can start today. But first, you need to take your heart off the table. You have a few precious years to do what you need to do. Don't waste them on him.”
― Lang Leav, September Love

Your spouse is not making up "his mind about you" because this is not about you and not about your marriage. He is in a crisis due to so many factors, in.a place where he is dealing with things that happened way before he ever met you.

"betting on something that may not come through". We are pretty clear here that there are not many who return to their partners. We really do encourage posters to let go and build a new life for themselves.

"But first, you need to take your heart off the table. You have a few precious years to do what you need to do. Don't waste them on him.”

This to me, and it's my opinion only, is unrealistic and "ugly".  Love is complicated. I did not stop loving my husband  because he had a crisis. There will always be love in my heart for him. They are not in our lives and we are not in theirs. Always, we encourage posters to fulfill their dreams, find new passions and become stronger than you were ever before...I can still love him without "expectations" and certainly have not wasted any of my life......

I personally find the quote not to support any of the trauma that we experienced, rather encouraging you to just get over it and deny your heart's feelings because somehow any love that you have for this person is a bad thing.

Love, past loves, present loves and future loves impact us deeply and those feelings remain in our brains in many ways. I embrace those memories and am grateful for the years we had.....so there is not nor ever will be an erasing of that "magic" or taking my heart off the table. That doesn't mean I won't love again or that it is holding me back from living..it means I have healed enough to recognize that things happen in life and I can't control another person's actions.

[beyondblessed]

Amazing, healing is different for each individual.  For me, it started by having as minimal contact as I absolutely needed with my xh.  It gave me space to breathe, to take steps back and view the things he was doing and the choices he was making and see that his crazy was HIS crazy.

Start by doing things that give you joy and peace.  Remember all the things you used to do to make his life easier and peaceful, and start giving yourself that same care and attention.  I started by getting back to the things I was doing,  pre-mariage, like going to the gym and just regaining my physical and mental health.  I routinely got facials and the occasional massage, and read a lot of books about personal growth and success.  And, eventually I started noticing how much attraction and attention I was receiving from men, again....and that I was attracted back and interested.

None of this happened overnight, but each day steps were being taken to direct me to the very different life I'm living now, compared to the one I had with xh.  It takes patience,  faith and steadily filling yourself with positive content and surrounding yourself with supportive and encouraging people.  It is a difficult road,  but you will make it.

 

[amazinglove]

Thank you for those wonderful responses Reinventing, Xyz, F/W and BB! They helped a lot.

I would just like to say that for those steeped in grief and sadness about an MLC spouse, never, ever go to a MacDonald's playzone. I mean, if the despair was not coming thick and fast enough, being there amidst the greasy feel of the upholstery, the children wildly screaming and the 'food' itself. My gosh that was a dark moment. Live and learn.

Ok so I would like to ask about the cycling aspect of this, and how not to let it make you confused and perpetually disappointed.

H knew my mom (who lives with us) broke her ankle and that I am juggling all and yet not a single text message this week enquiring ab how she was doing, or I, or the kids, were handling it. That hurt. Stupidly, I know, but it hurt. I thought after our phone call last week - where we opened up and even ended with 'i love you' (which to be fair, I prompted but he said and he would never, ever say it just bc I did. he does not), meant we were at least building something that resembled civility and some kind of friendship?

Just as I start to get my breath it seems, I have more negative contact from him. Today started out grim bc I was still in bed when he wrote asking to speak to kids - he was in hospital visiting his dad and wanted to show them to him - he had called my D (10)  first but she was asleep and her phone was off of course. it was 7am. I told him I would get my son (7) who was awake, but when H saw me when he opened the phone he looked like he'd seen a vampire. Like honestly, he was so disappointed and shocked that I would be calling and dare to show my face from my own phone. I thought it was normal and I have bribe my son to talk on the phone, and sit with him so he does it anyway. (he has ADD and hates talking on the phone normally).

I thought we had made more progress than this . And when he said he was coming here (he arrives in 3 days! Wed) he promised me that he was 'not angry at me' this time to visit kids but his seething dislike on phone just now is palpable. He hates me seeing his parents. His dad (the one who is in the hospital) loves me and always praises me, and his dad doesn't know my H no longer loves me - so maybe that's why. It's like he wants to show off these great kids he has (it feels a little like show ponies) that he is not currently raising or involved with beyond a few weekly texts and calls, and a few weeks of visiting a year, and erase me from the picture entirely. Like I don't exist - apart from working hard enough that he doesn't actually have to do what's involved in real parenting I guess. But stay silent and faceless.

I am going to speak to him ab it on the ride from LAX. He needs to fake it or access some kindness to me in front of the kids - he cannot show them he actively dislikes me -  because we are not modeling what he had modeled in a marriage his whole life. It messed him up and it will mess up our own. I don't want our son to treat any woman like this, and I don't want our daughter to accept it. I am going to be really firm on that one. He doesn't have to touch me, and I won't assume he's changed his mind, but he needs to act like I don't ruin every room I walk into. Which is how it felt this am. He needs to get that together in himself or he can find a hotel/leave.

After that call, I was sad. So I went for a walk (I walk every day at least an hour, sometimes 2 walks), called a couple of friends and listened to some inspirational music. I came back resolved that altho I may not be able to break this generational pattern (it's really more than that, it feels like a curse) in his family,  but I can break it for my son - and with God's help, I will.

I loved xyzcf's idea of 'acceptance' vs 'detachment'. thank you! I am working on accepting that he no longer feels love for me (beyond a kind of vague, you gave me these kids, thanks), and believes he never will want me in that way again. I need to accept that we are on track to never be a real couple again and I need to rebuild my life without him. I still have have romantic love for him (how I wish I could turn that off) but I will try to access compassion for the kid who was constantly left by his parents - first 5 years of his life - with his grandparents - as they went overseas to work and earn money. ((Ironically, he's not following this. Leaving his kids to go to another country too.))

These really do feel like hard times - I'm v thankful for all of you on here and any thoughts or wisdom greatly appreciated.
Happy Sunday!

[forthetrees]

I´m not sure he could comply with the faking it if he had to as they seem to have a visceral revulsion- almost like drawing your hand back when accidentally touching a hot stove. The flinch/cringe factor is reactive and I doubt he could avoid it. It might be on par with you asking a MLCer to not have a weird smell- not gonna happen. So maybe suggest that if he´s going to show through words, gestures or actions that you are not valued that he will need to find a place to stay other than the house but that visits are ok. That way you are  not subjected to the disrespect in your safe space.

If he will be in the house then maybe set up a work schedule that takes you out- even if working on-line at the library and activities away from home. You don´t want your home time to be tainted.

[UrsaMajor]

I would venture to guess that his "revulsion" of seeing you on the phone is directly related to the fact that he is likely lying to his family about his affairs and his plans. Since his family like you, he wants to "make you go away" so they don't poke at his as to why he isn't at home where he should be or other such. By "vanishing" you, he likely relieves a lot of pressure on himself from his family so, when you suddenly appeared, it is like being confronted with Satan for him....

Like FTT said though, in YOUR own home, you do NOT have to accept being treated that way. He is likely not going to be able to fake it much but he can stay somewhere else and visit the kids. Your mental health (and that of your kids) is priority number one.

[Treasur]

Chuckled about your McD playzone comment 

Agree with the others. His current MO seems to be that you - and the kids - are like toys on a shelf. That when HE wants to talk to them, or show them off, everyone is supposed to jump to it. Including you. When HE decides he wants to ‘visit’, ditto. (The fact he hasn’t been in touch to see how you or your Mum are coping is evidence to me that, regardless of what he might say, looking after the kids while your Mum is recovering is not his real rationale. No idea what it is, it will probably come out in the wash, but it will be self-serving in some way bc that’s how these folks roll)

I understand all the reasons why you might be going along with his expectation to have his cake and eat it too. We all do here bc they are normal understandable responses, an LBS version of putting your finger in the hole in the dyke that most of us did for a little while. I think though that what this tends to force us to do, bc they just eat more and more f’ing cake (insert mental picture of small fat boy stuffing his mouth full of cake lol), is to trip over our own boundaries by default. Which is not a bad thing. 

I think, reading your post, that means that you are still trying to negotiate boundaries with him….anecdotally, as others say, that tends not to work. And part of the mindf**k is that you perhaps can’t see, as we can see, how very reasonable and fair your boundaries are and how soaked in a twisted sense of entitlement he is. So, you are still - at least mentally - asking rather than telling, if that makes sense.

You are right though to focus on behaviour. Do not let him distract you, or you distract yourself, from that by getting sucked into the whys and whatnots sitting behind the behaviour. Those don’t matter as much as it feels they do. Boundaries are about actions, yours and his. And observable facts. Your h chose to leave. He has told you that he intends to live elsewhere, that he has exited from your previous family life leaving you holding the bag.

Which in my head means he is now a ‘visitor’…..purportedly to see his children….visitors are invited, come then leave at a pre agreed time, and fit around the existing schedule and obligations. Not the other way round. They stay elsewhere or sleep on the put up bed in the spare room. If they are good visitors, they tidy up after themselves a bit and maybe take everyone out for dinner to say thanks for the hospitality. They sometimes bring gifts lol. If you think of your h as not your h, but a person visiting his children, how does that affect how you think it should work?

It sounds as if you have a couple of basics.

That he treats you consistently with civility and respect, or finds somewhere else to stay.

That you agree how long he is staying, a specific date. And if/when you are driving him back to the airport. Or not.

That his visit is to spend time with, and take care of, his OWN children. So there will be a planned schedule for that which allows you, your Mum and the kids to plan their own time accordingly. And that while he is here, you will agree a schedule for him talking to the kids after he leaves which minimises your involvement and allows everyone to get on with their lives. And tbh that gives your kids some basic information about what is going on, that Daddy has chosen to leave and live elsewhere, that he is now a visitor not a stayer. Bc your kids deserve not to be gaslit or left hanging on a shelf. Bc that is how real life grown up consequences come from our choices, whether he likes it or not.

That you have no interest in having any conversation with him about his role as your h unless he has something new and concrete to put on the table for you to consider. If not, then he’s just a visitor visiting his children.
 
And you will need to have your own back up plan B of what YOU will do independently  when/if he does not meet HIS half of these very reasonable requirements. Bc, if I were a betting woman, I’d bet that he will. Bc these folks do. Bc his sense of entitlement and expectation that you all jump to his call and suck it up is obvious as a casual reader. Bc very few humans much like other peoples’ firm boundaries if they don’t serve our own interests….and MLCers tend to behave like teenagers with curfew times for a party 

So, I’d start with the basics in the drive home.

His departure date is when specifically? And that he will need to arrange his own transport back to the airport bc, you know, you are busy with all that grown up work/life/kids stuff…..

That he is staying on the couch/in the spare room etc. if that doesn’t suit him, you’re happy to drop him off at a nearby motel.

That the existing schedule for you and the kids is x, meal times are x, activities are x and therefore you propose that he spends y time with them eg school pick ups or weekends while you do other things. That if he wants to take them to x or y activity, that’s fine if it happens in those time slots but it will not include you. Visitor time not family time. That  can eat with you all if he’s around, and use the facilities to do his laundry etc, but you are now living as a solo parent with a ft job….he fits in around everyone else or is welcome to go elsewhere.

That he speaks to you with civility and respect as the mother of his children and an adult or stays elsewhere. And that, if he can’t/win’t do that in the car discussion, you drop him off at a motel. Bc I can’t underline enough how minimal a human requirement that is, my friend….the fact that he can’t/won’t do that is not your responsibility nor does it change how very basic a requirement it is. Like being civil at the airport check in desk if your flight is delayed lol…you may feel angry, but as an adult understand that if you spit insults at the person on the desk, you are going to get bumped off the flight or taken away by the police  It’s remarkable imho how often folks CAN manage their own behaviour with others in all kinds of situations….they just feel that they don’t HAVE to with us bc well, accustomed to cake and unaccustomed to LBS boundaries.

So, get clear in your own head in as few words as possible, what your boundaries are and what you will do when/if he breaks them, what you are prepared to offer and for how long, what you expect in return.

Do not get sucked into justifying, explaining or defending your need for those boundaries. He may not like them but hey ho.

Do not get sucked into the distraction of why he’s doing what he’s doing or owomen or how he feels or all his sadz or your long list of emasculating failures as a wife etc etc.

Just focus on the basics like a broken record…..how long he is staying and how his temporary visit with his kids is going to work in a way which best suits everyone, not just him. Offer first, then inform…..then say no if needed….it’s your house, your job pays for your family, you are currently the sole custodial parent, he left not you, he’s on your turf not vice versa….you have a great deal more power legally, practically and emotionally in this situation than you probably think. And if this makes HIS life more difficult? Well, that’s not your responsibility….after all, he gave no thought to how difficult it might be for you when he decided to go, did he? There was no negotiation about that as I recall  …..ha ha MLCers are pretty good at tending to their own boundaries, right?……and this is just how RL tends to work when you leave your wife and children. Everyone, including him, gets some bitter syrup with the cake.

But I really truly cannot emphasise enough how simple and basic your requirements are. Have an agreed schedule. Behave like a civil polite adult human. Accept that it is not just all about you bc other people, including small humans, have feelings and needs that matter too. That’s it….how basic is that?

[amazinglove]

Thank you so much Treasur, FTT and UM for the great replies. So helpful!

Treasur I'm always amazed by all the great advice you give and the super questions you ask to get me thinking -thank you!

I had the WORST dreams/lying awake at night dark thoughts last night. Does that happen to anyone else? Like between 3:33 and 6 am I was a mess. The most horrible thoughts about him and the woman who is his AP (I believe, have some evidence altho I cannot prove and he denies) and the fact that I think he was with her again this week (he goes dark and doesn't call kids or me for a few days) and the most terrible feelings of betrayal, hopelessness and if I'm really honest, humiliation.

When you are in that space - if any of you are - in the dark of night - what do you do to get out of it? I tried to pray but I felt like it was so strong I couldn't even get my mind there. Does anyone have anything suggestions of things that might have worked for them? Is this normal?

I never thought I would even still be married to someone who is cheating on me and I'm trying to cope with it for as long as I can before I pull the plug on this farce.

thank you in advance!

[zartheit]

I had the WORST dreams/lying awake at night dark thoughts last night. Does that happen to anyone else?

I had nightsweats almost every night for a year. I still get them pretty frequently.

When you are in that space - if any of you are - in the dark of night - what do you do to get out of it?

As little as I can muster. Less pithily, the best times for me have been when I don't fight against it. I initially found it hard to differentiate "ruminating" from "feeling", as I tend to be a very "in my head" person. With time I have been able to sit and feel all of the minutiae, as uncomfortable as it may be in the moment. In my case, aspects of me just wanted to be felt and comforted. By trying to "move past" it I was effectively abandoning myself. When I stopped and truly felt it all is when I began to feel much more able to do anything. I say this because words are easy It is incredibly difficult to actually do and I still find myself bucking against it and refusing to accept the anguish in the moment.

Is this normal?

Regardless, it *is* happening. I emphasize this because, for me, the external reference point of "normality" was used as an almost automatic goal. If I wasn't normal then I was wrong, deformed. This caused me much needless suffering. And, again for me, "normal" wasn't even something I cared about. I was using it as a way to not accept where I was. What I truly wanted was to feel differently, mostly to feel a sense of clarity and calm.

All of that being said, yes everything you are experiencing is something I have personally experienced. I imagine most people here have as well. The unthinkable wasn't just thought of, it actually happened. You're sitting in wreckage with a ringing in your ears when you hear an air-raid siren. It is a very difficult position to find yourself in. Every little step you take adds up. To switch up metaphors, right now you are at the base of a mountain. With time and effort, you can scale it.

[Reinventing]

When you are in that space - if any of you are - in the dark of night - what do you do to get out of it? I tried to pray but I felt like it was so strong I couldn't even get my mind there. Does anyone have anything suggestions of things that might have worked for them? Is this normal?

Yes. It is normal. I would walk circles in the living room to tire myself out. Sometimes I would repeat something self affirming, like "I am worthy", "I am able" while walking. I would then go back to bed and watch one of two things that I learned would keep my interest long enough to give me a few minutes reprieve. Sometimes I'd get back up and walk circles again.

Then when I finally went back to sleep, if I did, the morning meant I would wake up with going from sleeping to anxiety pulling me out of sleep. I could feel that happening. That's how my day started.

[amazinglove]

You know, all this time I was not sure what 'high energy replay' or 'low energy wallower' meant. People used those terms and I was always perplexed. But now that I've seen the two things appear before my eyes, I get it completely.

My H is here, has been since Wed. Last time he was here at Xmas he was wild eyed, couldn't sit still, edgy and cold, couldn't wait to get of here, checking his phone in the bathroom etc.

Since Wed, he sits around, has been hugging and kissing on kids, is super low energy, has let me know he wants to work on our marriage and does not want a divorce or to break up and understands that that means fidelity and commitment. He is without question, clinically depressed. At least he now admits that he is. He has also apologized for his actions at Xmas. I asked him if he'd had an affair/affairs -  and he denies it. But later when pressed, he said 'there's nothing you need to know.' I told him if he was involved with anyone, or if there was a woman out there pulling him away from his family with texts etc. he can no longer be in touch with them if he wants me. I have a massive thing about secrets and lies because of my own dad's affair. He agreed. He no longer takes his phone to the bathroom I've noticed or even sits with it the same way as before. We will see. We have  kissed and hugged and he's said I love you. Last night we slept in the same bed - first time since September.

Now, all of you battle scarred vets on here are going to tell me - i think - hold on, there's more crazy coming down the pike! this is NOT over!  Don't believe what he says! and yes, I get that. Thank you!

Right now it feels like I'm living with a stroke victim. He appears to feel little, moves slowly, and seems uncomfortable in his own skin. He is catatonic but weirdly also restless. He will almost def leave again at some point soon, altho he ok'ed me making plans with kids for a family overnight in 2 weeks. I think he really is taking it day by day. The reality of raising these two kids in a foreign country (that he does not like living in- but to be fair hasn't made much of an attempt at) will likely make him feel like he needs to escape again. And yes, I realize, that once back over there, he will possibly (maybe even likely?) reconnect with an AP for sympathy, comfort, dopamine or whatever. I am taking it day by day. If it comes to that, if he seems dodgy and secretive or vanishes, I will likely pull the plug on this. It's v hard.

During our long 2 hour talk on Friday while kdis were at school, the culmination seems to be that he does not want to lose me or this marriage etc. It was more that he was saying I don't want to lose you than he was choosing me, if that makes sense. I told him we have to move in one direction or another - working on a marriage or working on a separation agreement/divorce. I will not live in limbo anymore where I feel like I'm auditioning to be his wife - a role i won long ago. So, he said, I want to work on it. And so that's what is kind of happening now.

He does not want to take medication but we will continue to talk about that. I know that exercise can be v effective if done nonstop 30-40 mins a day, according to experts. I am not going to push too much but keep encouraging. He was a personal trainer for heaven's sake! and now he just sits around - the doctor who spoke at my group last night - topic was depression which was well timed - (i go to a divorce care group on Fridays and I went last night anyway) said that a sedentary lifestyle feeds depression like petrol feeds a car.

H took my D to volleyball practice just now and she was over the moon that he was going with her and sat with my son for an hour on the sofa this am hugging and kissing him watching the you tube pranks my son likes. They are over the moon he is here, and they are better off for it. He is being polite and low level affectionate to me - he never initiates any hugs or kisses with me and I am trying not to go too hard on that - he seems startled by them - but he responds when I initiate.

I wish I had more solid info, but i do know that i am on a journey and it is far from over. I am trying to keep two parallel paths open in my mind: one is that we reconcile and start to rebuild slowly and move back to London where he has a chance of getting things together (his work contacts are there and he feels much more at home being Turkish, has close friends, and also closer to his family), I also have contacts there for work and lots of friends so it's not bad for me to contemplate either,  but also a scenario in which I move alone with the kids to a place in the country like in Tennessee or Arkansas (my BF lives in Bentonville), and write a book about surviving/thriving during your H's MLC.

Living in a liminal space like this is hard, but lots of people do this every day. My friend has had Stage IV colon cancer for 4 years now, she was given 6 months to live initially. She gets up every day to go to work, calls her kids at college, and just started a new trial at UCSF (she has run out of options re traditional chemo - 16 rounds). She lives day by day. She's written a book and hopes to be alive for her book tour in June. Every day she holds on to two realities. That is my calling right now I think. Thanks to all of you, I am not rushing blindly into this with him, assuming we are all set because he's expressed that he wants to keep his family. Thanks to you, and all the collective wisdom, I know that this is a bend in the road, and it's a long road ahead.

I can say honestly that if it were not for my children, I would prob walk away. I don't get enough from him, he is such hard work, and he has broken our marriage and trust. But, there is a part of me that believes in 'sickness and in health' and I can see with my eyes how sick he is. He sobbed the other day in bed after we'd been affectionate. He turned his back and cried. He is a shell of the man he once was - the strongest and without a doubt the bravest man I'd ever met. That is the truth. I want to help him get better, for him and for my kids.

Time will reveal when my limits are reached. And this time, if we break, I don't think it will be fueled by fury, it will be a sad acceptance of the fact that he cannot continue on this journey with me and I can no longer carry him. And I will forgive him for that too.

All thoughts from this beautiful community gratefully appreciated. thank you!

[WHY]

RCR says it takes about 6-9 months past BD for them to settle into their energy type.  I 100% concur based on my experience. 

[FrenchHusband]

Hi amazing love,

My H is here, has been since Wed. Last time he was here at Xmas he was wild eyed, couldn't sit still, edgy and cold, couldn't wait to get of here, checking his phone in the bathroom etc.
[...] Now, all of you battle scarred vets on here are going to tell me - i think - hold on, there's more crazy coming down the pike! this is NOT over!  Don't believe what he says! and yes, I get that. Thank you!

I am glad for you and your children that your H has come back, and glad that you are knowing it is not the end, likely not the beginning of the end, maybe only the end of the beginning ?

I had the WORST dreams/lying awake at night dark thoughts last night. Does that happen to anyone else? Like between 3:33 and 6 am I was a mess. The most horrible thoughts about him and the woman who is his AP (I believe, have some evidence altho I cannot prove and he denies) and the fact that I think he was with her again this week (he goes dark and doesn't call kids or me for a few days) and the most terrible feelings of betrayal, hopelessness and if I'm really honest, humiliation.

When you are in that space - if any of you are - in the dark of night - what do you do to get out of it? I tried to pray but I felt like it was so strong I couldn't even get my mind there. Does anyone have anything suggestions of things that might have worked for them? Is this normal?

What you describe is "normal" for LBS, yes. At least in the first months post BD. For the first time in my life, the time has slowed down very much. At first it is a  curse, something I wanted to fight. Then, with time  I saw this is a gift that I can use for me. Now my sleep is almost come back to normal without any medication. Only change : I wake up 1 hour earlier than before BD, and I use this time for prayer and reading Word of God

I wish I had more solid info, but i do know that i am on a journey and it is far from over. I am trying to keep two parallel paths open in my mind: one is that we reconcile and start to rebuild slowly and move back to London where he has a chance of getting things together (his work contacts are there and he feels much more at home being Turkish, has close friends, and also closer to his family), I also have contacts there for work and lots of friends so it's not bad for me to contemplate either,  but also a scenario in which I move alone with the kids to a place in the country like in Tennessee or Arkansas (my BF lives in Bentonville), and write a book about surviving/thriving during your H's MLC.

Yeah, that's it ! You have options ! And options where you see good future for you whatever the outcome. That's great !

I can say honestly that if it were not for my children, I would prob walk away. I don't get enough from him, he is such hard work, and he has broken our marriage and trust. But, there is a part of me that believes in 'sickness and in health' and I can see with my eyes how sick he is. He sobbed the other day in bed after we'd been affectionate. He turned his back and cried. He is a shell of the man he once was - the strongest and without a doubt the bravest man I'd ever met. That is the truth. I want to help him get better, for him and for my kids.

Time will reveal when my limits are reached. And this time, if we break, I don't think it will be fueled by fury, it will be a sad acceptance of the fact that he cannot continue on this journey with me and I can no longer carry him. And I will forgive him for that too.

I totally understand what you write : you are full of empathy and forgiveness, it is a good place to be, right ? With this MLC, I feel my heart is bigger and my mind is clearer, it looks to me that you feel the same.

[Treasur]

Living in a liminal space like this is hard, but lots of people do this every day. My friend has had Stage IV colon cancer for 4 years now, she was given 6 months to live initially. She gets up every day to go to work, calls her kids at college, and just started a new trial at UCSF (she has run out of options re traditional chemo - 16 rounds). She lives day by day. She's written a book and hopes to be alive for her book tour in June. Every day she holds on to two realities. That is my calling right now I think.

I don’t think I have heard anyone use that analogy before but it makes a great deal of sense to me as a way of living with significant long term uncertainty. I think most LBS, regardless of their situation, find themselves living by dropping back into day by day and finding a way to do that which works best for them. Having said that, of course, living with a sort of embodied cancer in the shape of your spouse (sounds harsh, I know, but I’m not quite sure how else to put it), who might be blaming you or reluctant to take care of themselves, has some differences too. Either way, not an easy or straightforward way to live. I imagine you will find your own way of doing so as things shake out. I hope that others here who experienced something similar will come along with their thoughts and advice.

All of us here would celebrate your compassion, I think, and your commitment to your family. Whatever happens in the future, there is a kind of peace to be found in trying earnestly to do one’s best about things that matter that matters. But, at the same time, it’s not easy and we are here to support you as you navigate it and try to walk the tightrope between his needs and everyone else’s needs. Including your own.

What did strike me - and it may be a passing thing bc imho it helps to tag the phrase ‘right now’ onto both our emotions and thoughts and theirs, bc things evolve - is that your h does not yet seem to have reached a place where HE has a plan of action to address his own issues, whatever they are. No medication, no therapy, no solo endeavours?…..his plan seems to be that this is a We problem to work on? And that his bit of the We is met by his return and saying he ‘wants to work on it’? Do you know what he actually means by that? Anything that is just about HIS action as opposed to all of you changing things, like relocating, which will change the conditions of his external life as opposed to him changing the internal ones?

Where do you see the line between We and Him and Me?
It may even be worth practicing using the question - silently, or even out loud with him - which bit of this is a We problem or a You problem? Or a We/You solution?

Imho - and I have a mental image of something like the triangle of Maslow’s Hierarchy - my advice fwiw would be to tread very cautiously in doing anything significant that is intended to improve his situation without seeing evidence first that he is choosing to take action independently on getting his own internal ducks in a row. To let him show his workings in the margin first.

For two reasons….one is that it feeds a narrative that what you do is either the problem or the solution. And if you take some of his prior complaints at face value, that is self evidently not so. The second is that it runs the risk of doing the life equivalent of you and your kids throwing spaghetti at a wall for someone who may not yet be stable and clear eyed enough to know what he really wants and have personally committed to it. Both imho are good reasons for you to keep slowing your roll and give yourself time to reflect before saying yes, no or maybe to anything big that will affect your and your kids future wellbeing.

[amazinglove]

Thank you so much for those replies. They are so helpful and deeply appreciated.

Quick question - I've noticed that he does not want to be touched really. He never initiates a hug for example. We watched tv tonight and i reached out to hold his hand - he holds it back with strength, there was no wishy washy tolerance/acceptance if that makes sense, and I was watching for that.  But also tonight he went to sleep alone in my son's room (his choice because my son was with grandma) and he came over and like 'high fived' me goodnight! WTF? He seems honestly afraid of physical contact with me.

I wonder too, is it a fear of reattaching? A fear of 'engulfment'? (a term I recently learned ab avoidant personalities, of which he is def one) Is it that he's not sure he actually loves me and he doesn't want to lead me on that he will be my husband in a real way again, ever? Maybe all three?

I asked him directly tonight, are you comfortable with affection from me, because it feels normal to hug or kiss you, and he said yes it's ok, but when he said it, his eyes looked panicked. I said I didn't want to like pressure him or stress him out either but it just feels normal to me. We have held hands for 14 years. But again, this version of him is not the man I've known, not by a long shot.

What do you guys suggest ab that? Still attempt hugs, or hand holding etc or just leave him alone entirely in a physical way? My fear on that is, if I do stop initiating affection, he will completely shut that down from his side (more high fives?!) and then it will be impossible/too awkward to pick it up again.  On the other hand, it's humiliating to basically be asking your own husband to touch you. (and ps I'm gorgeous)

I loved your note Treasur about a We or Him issue, I will use that,  and he still makes no moves towards exercise - something he can actually do to help himself.I also think medication and counseling needs to continue to be discussed.  However, he did take on a major project today in my daughter's room (de-assembled a bunk bed and assembled some furniture) and it was industrious and hugely helpful and he took the initiative on it. I helped with the moving and tagged along when he went out to buy some beer (I had given all of his beer to a friend's husband while he was away!) and we felt like friends. Honestly the whole evening as the kids were occupied and he caught up with me on Apple TV's Criminal Record (recommend it) we felt like friends. Which is a whole lot better than what we had in December. Re reading some of my old posts where he was a total monster, was enlightening just now. So maybe I should be grateful for the high fives.

[Ready2Transform]

Mine used to say he felt like he had a "burning aura" and did not want me to touch him. He repelled or dodged during most of this time unless he initiated it. Sometimes he'd hug me and cry suddenly, then push me away like it didn't happen. It's just weird. I remember the cognitive dissonance in myself during all of this because the person I needed to comfort me was the one causing the need for comfort! It's hard to deal with. Best course - don't touch him. I know that seems weird. But it's not going to keep this from progressing because you're keeping the physical connection. It doesn't even matter if you are still intimate - they'll keep going and being weird. Save yourself the pain, and start finding other ways to get the oxytocin.

[KayDee]

Sending hugs and support AL. This will be a very difficult period and it must be so hard to know how to move around your own home. As R2R says, there's likely a cognitive dissonance for you. My suggestion is that you keep a kind of 'open' body language, and let him come to you. I have seen the same with my H. I have seen the wild-eyed fidgets and the complete crumple. I don't see him much, but when I do, he initiates hugs. I don't. It's hard not to take it personally - like the gorgeous you has suddenly become a swamp-monster, but it's really not about you, it's about how he feels about himself being lovable. About shame. And, yes, about feeling pressure. It's his inability to cope at the moment that led him to flee in the first place.

It's hard not to have expectations of what you feel is the 'known quantity' of your H, but he is currently in extreme inner turmoil and distress. It is unlikely that he can tell you what he feels (thinks - more accurate) at one moment to the next, so perhaps it's better not to ask just yet. If it is your desire to keep him at home, dial down the pressure for a while. But as Treasur say, there are 3 other people in this mix and this is not a you problem. From my life experience, it can take some people an awful long while to accept that a)they have an issue b)they need to take responsibility for it.  I imagine it unlikely that he will proactively do this for a while - this comes with the MLC territory. He has to find his own way to what will heal him. But you noticed that a solid, tangible task, with no pressure (the bedroom furniture) was a positive activity for him. Maybe you 'seed' a few more, without asking directly. A small point really, because he is clearly in a low place, but maybe some low pressure activity will be of some gain.

[amazinglove]

It's strange to post something like this in an anonymous forum before I've even told my own sister, but she is currently getting a breast biopsy done to find out if she has cancer, and my goodness when it rains it pours (it is literally pouring rain here also). Praying for her and have been.

Today I found out about my H's affair.

I heard him whispering on the phone early this am and it was in English, which stopped me cold because his family is all Turkish. I came downstairs quietly (the rain disguised my steps) and heard him talking to someone in a way that was really familiar and close. I saw a woman's name on his phone and asked him 'you have a girlfriend?. We talked after the kids went to school and he initially told me nothing, just a friend, none of your business, but then we really, really talked and he's now admitted he's in love with her. She was his first love, and they reconnected via facebook -the first time she called him I actually answered his phone can you believe that? - so I've talked to her. Anyway, they've been in touch and saw each other in October when he was in Barcelona with his mates (she has a place there) and they then went back there for NYE. They have had these like dirty days/weeks together - in Moscow where she lives, Barcelona and she came and stayed in our place in Antalya.  It's all these like sexy, romantic getaways. She has one adult daughter who hates him because she knows he is married and also how he apparently broke her mom's heart the first time, 20 years ago. He says of her, 'we went through a lot together.'

Gag me with a spoon.

He sobbed, cried and sobbed some more. he told me he cries all the time (he does), he never laughs (he does not), he is a mess (he is) He does not want to lose me or the kids but he also does not want to give her up. He told me when he was over there, and I would post pics on FB he would just cry and cry. I initially told him to pack bags and get out but have told him he can stay for a bit longer because it will traumatize the kids if he is just not here when they get home from school. I told him we can see if we can be kind to each other and co-exist and he can stay a bit longer. Maybe we can build some kind of friendship back or something i don't know. I am not sure how realistic that is. I reckon he will be gone within days. He said he slept with me the first day back because he was hoping he would feel something in that way for me again, and he does not. It is just not the same as it is with her, and apparently it's much better with her. He said "what I lost with you, I found with her.' I think he means that kind of romanic spark.

I told him that I am a working mom in menopause and literally carrying the weight of the world (bills, job, kids) on my shoulders, and I can never compete with dirty weekends with a secret lover in far flung locales. I said make me your mistress and I can show you a good time too. I told him he should go explore his happiness but that they are building a reality on lies and other people's pain. No one in his family even knows. He has told no one and has been lying to all. I also told him that this is his brokenness, his problem and not because of me or our marriage. Anyway, I tried to speak some truth, not that much sunk in.

I said that we now finally have the truth, and now we need to act in love and kindness towards each other. He said it would be easier for him if I hated him, if I screamed at him and kicked him out, and I said that I will always love him as the father of my children and we will part as friends. iI said I believed he was a good man but that he had behaved terribly and blown up our marriage.  Honestly, I think God helped me with this. Last night my Bible reading was all 1 Corinthians 13 - the Love chapter - and those words kept ringing in my head.

I don't know if I will ever love him the same way again , nor him me clearly, but I dont think we will part in anger or hatred. Maybe our story isn't over as a couple, but it's very hard to see that now. I cannot imagine that he will even end up with this woman, the woman he blew up our family for. I think it's totally crazy, but he is mentally unwell (he admitted that) and he is clutching at a history, shared memories and his fantasy of a future. is that it?

I think I sound stronger than I am right now. I've just called in sick to work. I don't know how I'll function today. Did I mention my mom lives with us? This is going to be so so hard. But at least, I've got the truth that I've known in my heart for months now. Finally.

I hope healing starts with truth.

[Treasur]

I am very, very sorry.
Sadly I’m not at all surprised which is one of the disadvantages of being an old hand here.

I imagine you are going to have a whole bunch of emotions over the next few days. And that’s ok. Well it sucks, but feeling what you feel won’t kill you. And it’s important to let yourself feel how you feel without trying to temper it or be nice or good or kind. As long as you don’t act too precipitously just to scratch a feeling itch either way. And please don’t let your (deceitful unfaithful selfish weak) husband hand over his feelings to you to manage too. If he is sadz or guilty or uncomfortable with your feelings, tough - he can learn how to deal with his own feelings while you do the hard solo work of sitting with your own. Bc you know it’s ok to not be his friend right now…you can be civil and respectful without being his chum or supportive ear. If he doesn’t like it, well that’s a pretty predictable consequence of doing what he’s done in the real adult world, isn’t it? He’s no real friend to you at the moment, I’d suggest. And he knows where the door is.

Of course your concern about the kids is going to shade your lens right now while you work out what is best for you and them. I’d suggest you breathe, give yourself a bit of space and time, and consider if you think him staying, going or something in between is going to create the most calm, safe and sane space for you and the kids. It sounds as if he is intending to carry on with his Moscow Mule so you have the right to decide on your own boundaries and what is, or is not, acceptable to you as a way to live. Just as he is currently doing.

[Nas]

I hope healing starts with truth.

I can promise you it really does. ((Hugs))

[KayDee]

Urgh, so sorry AL. I guess now you know that his behaviour re physical contact was to do with his shame. Because yes, his behaviour is despicable, self-serving and says everything about him and nothing about you. It's such a cliche - the old flame. And unlikely love - not if love is built on mutual respect, growing together, supporting each other and creating a close bonded family. If it was this kind of love, the kind that long term partnerships grow from, then their first romance would not have fizzled out 20 years ago. Clearly neither of them had the chops to survive whatever it was that they 'went' through back then. Probable it will fall at the same hurdle this time around with the added destabilizing sand of deceit, shame and disgusting disregard of others. Of course, the obvious question is - if he doesn't like himself, how can he love someone else?

Treasur is right, you will go through a whole bunch of emotions. No way to by-pass them, only through. Keep posting and sharing here if you feel you need to. Maybe it will help free up some mental space for you to support your dear sister, who has been such a rock for you this last few months. Sending hugs and strength to you AL.

[amazinglove]

Update: I went to NYC to be with my sister. I left him with the kids and took the red eye. My mom kindly agreed to stay with him
To keep kids on an even keel/schedule plus she’s got a broken ankle.
I told him he has a week to clear his head and get some good advice from those he trusts. And I will too. I said that if he loves someone else and won’t give her up then there is no marriage and we can talk about the logistics and legal separation agreement when I get back on Sunday. He admitted his older sister does know ab this affair and is angry at him in as is everyone else in his life. He said every single person is telling me to end it. I told him for a guy that’s found a great love he sure cries a lot. He said the only time he doesn’t cry is when he sleeps. He needs to see a doctor and I told him whatever happens to us get help. I am just landed in NY on way to my gorgeous sister’s appt on the UES. Oh I found out - The woman he’s seeing js 15 years older than him and has a daughter nearly his age. He is 44, she is 59, daughter 38. I mean……I think she dated him in his early 20s and manipulated him when he was weak then too! Just a weird dynamic. He does seem addicted to her somehow and I don’t know if he can break that spell. I don’t know that I will ever ever love or want him
The same way but I would still try even after this. The agonizing guilt he exhibited during his 4 hour confessional (after which he immediately fell asleep the way murderers do after confessing btw) has convinced me that he will not live a double life again for a long while. It took a massive toll. As bad as it is, I’m glad for the truth.

[Treasur]

What a smart call. You need a break, both of you will doubtless benefit from a bit of space and you can invest your love and care with a sister who will value your support.

Ow is doubtless a dysfunctional hot mess bc, well, they normally are.  Birds of a feather etc etc.

I hope your sister is doing ok. X

[jmnab]

Just read through this - I'm so sorry.
It must be very painful, but at least you don't have to wonder anymore. 

Hopefully the truth coupled with distance/time with other family will bring clarity.
I hope your sister is well.

Sending love and good thoughts...

[amazinglove]

Hi all from the Big Apple! My sister's biopsy came back benign. We found out today. Much rejoicing here!!

H is with kids and spends most of the day (while they're at school) on sofa watching tv. I am working from my sister's apt and going out every night. He called last night with D bc he was out buying her a new bike (she needs one) and they wanted my opinion. I was in the apt but went out esp to a bar to call them back - no way was I calling him back from inside the house. He immediately said to my D (who was on camera) under his breath "ask her where she is?!" was nice to see the slight panic cross his face. Have been doing a lot of walking around Central Park and this city has the best energy. I lived here for a long time and it is nice to feel back at home in many ways. I feel a connection with myself.

The latest from camp crazy is that H is trying now to make a heroic decision whether to give up his mistress or stay to fight for his family. At the moment he is undecided. I also found out he's lost 3 clients - he now has only 10 hours of work a week - and this other woman is very, very rich. She is also a grandmother and 61 - my H is 44 and tall and handsome - so if he goes to her he does not have to get a job or rebuild his career likely. If he stays with me, he most certainly does. I cannot think of a man less suited to be a toyboy than my husband, who is insanely proud - but this lady obvs has figured out a way to make him feel in charge and powerful. I can't help but think tho, that once he blows up his life, gets divorced and goes to her and that balance of power shifts (he has no way back or other options) that their dynamic will shirt entirely. I would enjoy watching that play out actually.

My kids are still really happy he's here. He's been playing with them and handling pick ups/drop offs, took my son for haircut etc. Basic stuff.  I am therefore not going to push him out the door when I get back on Sunday. However, he seems itching to go, I imagine he's talking to her and she's def nudging him out the door (come back to me! I'll take care of you! you are a good person!) feels guilty and hates seeing himself through my now (entirely opened to all of his s***) eyes.

From my side, I'm not sure what to do, and what I even want at this point. I do not feel much love for him. He does not appreciate all that I've done and the inner work I've had to do to even talk to him and be in the same house as him right now. He does not understand what an amazing wife I have been and continue to be. He is still hugely resentful that he 'gave up' his big opportunity at his London studio 2 years ago to follow me to the US. He still believes I was too controlling and I fear that if I act as a 'normal' wife (ie when are you getting a real job? or 'when are you going back to Turkey and how long are you staying'?) he will immediately react and be horrible to me.

Based on some texts he sent me, I got the idea he is planning to go back next week.  I told him to not book any return tickets until he talks to me when I'm back Sunday and he accused me of trying "to manage him". I reminded him that we have tickets to go to Universal Studios next Thursday and kids are off Fri/Mon next week. I said the kids will be upset and damaged if you only stay 2 weeks. He accused me of using the kids to manipulate him. Are you kidding me?? Does he think I WANT him here right now in my house? Someone else is telling him this. someone else is impinging all my motives. I can guess who. How can I express to him real needs on the part of our kids without being accused of weaponizing them to manipulate him? I am going figure out how to address this asap. I will never stop advocating for them.

Basically he is still a horrible person that is unlike any version of him I've known before, and I do not actually want to live with or be connected to him. He is a selfish, depressed zombie and hard to be around. I constantly feel like I need to cheer him up. He has no job here in the USA and no purpose and seems unmotivated to find it. He refuses to see a doctor and get meds or therapy. I think that the fact that he is not sure he even wants me and has not promised to cut things off with his predator-granny makes me think there is nothing to fight for here, apart from a really lovely history. I can tell you this, despite his becoming increasingly horrible in the past 1-2 years, we had 10 wonderful, amazing years of marriage and he was a kind, faithful and very good husband and father for all that time.  And while he shows reluctance to return to who he was, he also says things like 'I f'ed up and I want to save this family etc' so I know he's somewhat torn.

If I didn't have kids this would not be a question for me. If my kids were in college and not 7 and 10 this would not be a question for me. I would definitely walk away from him. I would actually run. But in these circumstances, I'm not sure what to do. I won't settle for a terrible husband just for them, but I also want to give him every chance to pull out of this and he is clearly not well.

"No sudden movements", "Take your time," 'Trust your Instincts" "set some boundaries", 'ultimatum/force him to get help'

 I THINK you wise folk will tell me?

thank you in advance, with love.

[Nas]

I’m really happy to hear that your sister got good news, I’m sure you’re both so relieved. I too enjoy walking around New York City. I was just there a few weeks ago and found it was a good change of scenery to try to work through some  things I’ve been grappling with. I actually had some major revelations while I was there so it was worth the trip.

I’m not going to give you any advice, only that I don’t know that you really have to do much of anything right now unless you want to. As long as you and your kids and mom are safe and sound and you are not in any imminent danger of facing consequences of any of his actions, you don’t have to make a decision immediately. Except that if he’s planning to leave again next week, let him go. You can’t do anything about him. That said, you owe him nothing, so if it were me, I’d let him get himself to the airport, let him figure out all of his own details and logistics and finances. Let him live out his “grand plans,” including any consequences that come from those plans.

[Nas]

I just wanted to add in regards to the OW, sure, she may be in his ear, and it’s all infuriating, but in the end you will realize it doesn’t matter. He’s responsible for his choices. That includes the choice to leave his children again after two weeks, as much as you want to shield them from that pain. The only way to protect kids in these situations is to try to help them see that it’s not about them, none of it is their fault and that you can’t control other peoples actions but that other peoples actions are not a statement about who you are. Kids identify themselves as their parents, there’s no separation for them. if someone says their parent is bad, it means they are bad. If they perceive their parents to be bad, they perceive themselves to be bad. You can help them see that his actions aren’t a reflection of them, but you can’t do anything about his actions. he’ll have to live with the fallout of that, of leaving his kids to go try to find some part of himself in another human being.

[jmnab]

He does not appreciate all that I've done and the inner work I've had to do to even talk to him and be in the same house as him right now.
He does not understand what an amazing wife I have been and continue to be.
He is still hugely resentful that he 'gave up' his big opportunity...
He still believes I was too controlling ... he will immediately react and be horrible to me.
I told him to not book any return tickets until he talks to me when I'm back Sunday and he accused me of trying "to manage him".
He accused me of using the kids to manipulate him.
How can I express to him real needs on the part of our kids without being accused of weaponizing them to manipulate him?
He is a selfish, depressed zombie and hard to be around.
... he is clearly not well.

First, I'm so happy your sister's results were benign. That is fantastic news!!! 

As for your other half, I'm truly sorry. Everyone here has much better advice than I could imagine giving.
I'm definitely commiserating - everything in this list resonates with me. It's as if aliens invaded the earth and sucked out all the logic and goodness from their brain through a straw.

I'm slowly but surely learning there is nothing I can do and no reasoning with them. I can't imaging going through this with kiddos. 

[amazinglove]

Thank you Nas - those are such helpful thoughts. And Jmnab I am so grateful for your support and encouragement! Thank you!

I think as the enormity of what he's done continues to hit me. And from the safety and distance of my sister's sofa in NYC while he cares for the kids in CA - the more I think about him, the less I want him in my life. I don't think he's a good role model for our kids either.

I think I will go back and say as little as possible and keep him at arm's length until we get through our wedding anniversary on Monday (GAH) and the kids' trip for Vday to LA - and then he can book his flight back. I might suggest it. Once I know he's booked it and my keeping quiet will not prolong his time with kids, I will have a more significant conversation with him about my own boundaries.

Some things I'm thinking: he cannot bring this woman back to our flat in Antalya. All my things are in the closet and drawers and my kids toys etc. She has money, she can stay in a hotel, not in our home. I am serious about this, or I will not go back there and stay myself this summer with kids. It is actually my house, in my name, and I don't want her in a home that we set up every single inch for ourselves and our family. Not unless we are divorced and it's his home. I will also insist he does not introduce her to our kids, ever, or I will tell them that she was daddy's secret gf while he was married to mommy. And also he has to get a proper job and pay some child support. Those kinds of things.

I am not sure if he has a moral compass anymore, I think that's the crux of it, and I don't think I can ever, ever trust him again. The thing is, maybe my kids don't need a dad like that.

The whole saga is so sad. I keep trying to go back and read your messages about MLC. When this first kicked off, remembering that this is about him, about his brokenness, not about my marriage and our family. This is not about an affair even (altho that is front of mind currently) but the sheer number of lies it took for him to get here, and really callous and cruel behavior towards me is still mind boggling to me. The fact that he still does not even see it, or understand the enormity of what he's done, or really seem keen to fix it with me, is deeply painful and frustrating.

Do any of you advise to tell them what they deserve to hear ?

[jmnab]

Do any of you advise to tell them what they deserve to hear ?

I don't know if this will be helpful, but I want to chime in with my experience so far. Keep in mind I have the privilege of saying whatever I want because there are no children involved...

Every time I've defended myself or insulted him back (which I'm ashamed to say has happened a few times) it has backfired on me 3x. There seemed to be a few fleeting moments of surprise at my response, but in general, it didn't turn out well.

On top of that, the moodiness and waffling causes H to apologize for what he's said or done one minute, and attack me the next. I'm learning this is largely based on how we (LBS) interact with them. After the last couple of months, and based on where I am timeline-wise, I sincerely believe that when it comes to LBS, they can't keep a thought in their brain long enough to remember anything impactful. It seems like the made up reasons for their contempt change with every conversation.

But if it's related to the kids, maybe it would be a good thing?
Maybe frame it in terms of boundaries?

[amazinglove]

Thank you for that. Yes probably you are right. He has already said some mean things that ring in my head. Stupid things that I really don't need to replay. Might be better to avoid too much more of that until he is able to untangle (if ever) more of this on his own.

I do have strong feelings about a few things tho, and I will express them but wait for my moment.

I never, ever thought this was possible from this person. It's like a horrible nightmare, but real.

[jmnab]

I never, ever thought this was possible from this person. It's like a horrible nightmare, but real.

I keep saying the same thing. 

[Reinventing]

AL, what is enforceable in the list of what you want to say to him? Can you force him to get a job?

Does removing you and the kids from the flat this summer help you? How will you know if she went there or not?

He may enjoy thwarting you in your demands if they are not enforceable.

I'm not saying what you want is wrong or unreasonable--when you are working with someone on your team. But he is not on your team right now.

[UrsaMajor]

Reinventing already addressed this but.....

Some things I'm thinking: he cannot bring this woman back to our flat in Antalya.

And you'll enforce this how? How will/would you know?

All my things are in the closet and drawers and my kids toys etc. She has money, she can stay in a hotel, not in our home. I am serious about this, or I will not go back there and stay myself this summer with kids. It is actually my house, in my name, and I don't want her in a home that we set up every single inch for ourselves and our family. Not unless we are divorced and it's his home.

Understandable but see question #1... How would you know?  If the house is yours and in your name only, you can do things like have the locks changed so he can not enter. By default then OW can also not enter. Is this worth the effort?

I will also insist he does not introduce her to our kids, ever, or I will tell them that she was daddy's secret gf while he was married to mommy.

This is not a boundary, it is a threat, an ultimatum and it is guaranteed to bring on the Monster at least or blow up in your face because he will do it just to be spiteful.

And also he has to get a proper job and pay some child support. Those kinds of things.

And you will enforce this boundary how? He will need to pay child support. Fine. Where he gets the money to do so is his problem, not yours. Even if he chooses to default, then he will have other legal liabilities hanging over his head.

Do any of you advise to tell them what they deserve to hear ?

you can

for all the good it will do you.....

[Treasur]

Such good news about your sister, yay for that!

Turning to your last couple of posts…..
It’s probably important that you understand and accept the strong likelihood that right now your emotions (understandably) are running very hot. And a bit like the quote from Alice in Wonderland, you are probably having six different emotions before breakfast! Accepting this helps you create a gap between the entirely reasonable feelings - anger, fear, helplessness, grief et al - and the very normal impulse to scratch an itch by DOING something with the feeling. Strong emotions can be a good driver, but a lousy navigator 

Don’t misunderstand me. I am not saying you should not take action. I’m just saying that you would be wiser to not take big actions or make big declarations while you are running hot. Give your thinking brain a chance to catch up with your feelings brain if that makes sense. If only bc your choices from here are about your life treasures - your children’s wellbeing, your future emotional and financial stability, your own sense of agency and where you invest the energy of your one precious life.

So, keep slowing your roll 

On the other issues you posted about, I’m going to helicopter up for a moment and invite you to do the same. Hard for feelings brains to do, easier when we can engage our thinking brains, right? Which is why it’s also easier to do from the cheap high up seats over here lol.

With the great gift of hindsight, I think the core of the learning process for most LBS is about what I’d call Serenity Prayer Sees The Real Life Rabbit 101, regardless of whether one is a person of faith or not 

Remember the Serenity Prayer?

God grant me the serenity
To accept the things I cannot change;
Courage to change the things I can;
And the wisdom to know the difference.
Living one day at a time;
Enjoying one moment at a time;
Accepting hardships as the pathway to peace;
Taking, as He did, this sinful world
As it is, not as I would have it;
Trusting that He will make all things right If I surrender to His Will;
So that I may be reasonably happy in this life
And supremely happy with Him Forever and ever in the next.

To accept the things I cannot change…..what are they?
Courage to change the things I can….what are they? And what fears do you need to navigate through to do that?
And the wisdom to know the difference….how do you distinguish one from the other?

And, often forgotten when folks refer to the Serenity Prayer….

Living one day at a time; Enjoying one moment at a time….or what we call GAL, what’s the balance between what I’m struggling with and this?
And
Taking, as He did, this sinful world As it is, not as I would have it….or what we sometimes call Detachment or Acceptance here, the extent to which we find our own way to deal with how it actually is at a given moment as opposed to how we want it to be or think it should be

So, I’m going to invite you to take a beat and run a scan over the issues you posted….everything from the date he goes, the kid’s holiday days, the Antalya flat, introducing ow, future holidays, his opinion or appreciation of you, his job choices, child support, the nature and extent of his relationship with his children, being knowingly married to this kind of man right now, what you want for your children, what you want for yourself, conversations you think you should have or intend to have with him…..the whole list, all of it, whatever you are chewing on big or small.

Use the Serenity Prayer as a kind of mental ruler.

And at least in the privacy of your own mind, or with a bit of paper, or in conversation with the Big Guy….

What can you really control? And what can you not, even if you wish you could? And how do you find a way to make peace with accepting the specific realities in your current situation that you cannot change or control?

How can you find a way to live in the moments of your life with some joy regardless?

What does a pathway to Peace in your own life and spirit look like to you from where you are right now? There’s a Buddhist principle I’m going to maul now which is something to the effect that humans suffer when we try to fight reality bc reality tends to win lol…..peace and freedom from suffering, the kind of deep suffering that most LBS know sadly, starts to come when we find a way to work with reality not against it. But that takes a bit of time and intentional effort for most of us, ha ha.

And how can you grow and keep a clear eyed focus on As It Is as opposed to As I Want It To Be?

Sending you a very big encouraging hug from here. It’s easy to see that you are so much stronger, smarter and creative than you probably feel right now but we can see it, and that you will figure it out x

[FrenchHusband]

What a great post Treasur (greatness being your usual by the way  ) ; I didn't know the second part of the Prayer that I am already using for myself and spreading around me (evangelization) since BD. Now I get the second part + your exegesis regarding LBS advices. Thank you so much !

[amazinglove]

Thank you so much Treasur! I had not ever heard that back half of the Serenity Prayer and it's very apt and I loved the Buddhist idea of facing reality. It helped me thank you -as did all your replies - am grateful for them.

I've always been someone who has fought hard to overcome enormous odds, and for the most part I have. I have been relentless and fearless in my life, with my career, with my choice of husband, my living in other countries, and it has got me to where I am now. It's one of my best traits!  But I'm learning that you cannot control what you cannot control and this is a lesson in letting go, living with liminality (not to be confused with limerence!), living with uncertainty, not being able to influence outcomes etc. Accepting what you cannot change? A terribly hard lesson for someone like me.

This week with my sister has been lovely and restorative. We have walked hours through Central Park and I have cried lots of tears. She never stopped walking, and once, when I complained (we were marching up hills in the North Woods and I was literally doubled over) and she said "I'm just trying to keep you MOVING" and that was true in more ways than one. She really is trying to keep me moving. She has listened to my obsessive ramblings more than any sane person should have to. She has given advice, given agreement and argued when needed. We have visited pubs, stayed up late talking in bed, hit glam locations and also spent hours on the sofa with Pad Thai or sushi and watching great tv.  She prosecutes murderers for a living, so she is a hard one to shock. I admire her greatly. My H was one of the few men she admired and loved - he was a true brother to her - and this has been a blow to her too. I forget that there is pain other than my own and my kids around this. Everyone who loved him is hurting. Our mutual friend talked to H's mom on the phone and she cried for most of it. She is deeply worried about what he is doing to our family. Apparently, H hasn't told anyone in his family that I 'know' ab his affair yet. I think he is saving that for when he gets back there.

As I think I wrote, he's intimated to me that he wants to leave as soon as possible after I get back. He is depressed and my mom said after he takes kids to school he sleeps and sits around al day. He left the house only a couple of times apart from getting kids. I leave here tomo morning early NYC time, 515am and will be back in Cali before 11am. He has to stick around at least until Friday so I guess that will give us time to talk. I do not plan on driving him back to LAX this time around. Because, no matter how you slice it, I'm driving him back to her.

Being here has given me much needed space in which to feel my feelings and think my thoughts. It has been painful, even overwhelming at times. I don't see him as a suitable partner to me anymore. He is not mine now. He really does belong to someone else. It feels like we are speaking 2 diff languages on two diff frequencies.  I feel that he is numb or blind to goodness and immune from anything I could say or do to persuade him (likely anything anyone else could do too), so perhaps best we stick to the state of things as they are now and what happens in the immediate (ie next 3 months) future. Is that what they call the MLC 'fog"?

Listening to all of your wisdom, I will try not to make big pronouncements in the next few days that I might live to regret, (altho it's hard to imagine I would), but also set clear boundaries of what I can and cannot accept. Enforceable or not, I am drawing a line. If he chooses to cross it, that's on him. I am coming round to the conclusion that if he is living in darkness, selfish and perpetually miserable he is likely not the best person to have around the kids either. I will not try to guilt him into coming back.

I don't know what words I will use. I don't know what moment I will choose. I don't know what mood he will be in, or what he will say to me when we see each other tomorrow. I know almost nothing!

Here's what I do know. I do know that I have support and love here on my side. I know that I thrived (i wrote existed but changed it) before him and I will thrive again after him. I know that my family loves me. I know I have the best friends in the world. I know that I am smart and talented and I will always find work. I know that I would not have these gorgeous, perfect children, the biggest blessing of my life, without him. I know that this pain will not kill me and will lessen someday.  The rest will have to sort itself out I guess.

Will keep you posted.....

[amazinglove]

Ok so here's the update. Today is our 13th wedding anniversary. Lucky 13! Nightmare.

We went for a long walk and he basically asked me for time. He said he loves me, he will love me forever, he does not want to lose me or this family. He said he is asking for some time to figure it out. He is leaving here Monday and he is flying to meet her in Barcelona. He said he will stay a week or so. They  never spend more than a week as one of them is always leaving and she has to live full time in Moscow where she has businesses. I suggested they move in together and experience real life. She is very rich apparently - he did not tell me this but I understood it to be true. He is living in a fantasy world where he just travels the world with her or something and never gets a real job apart from his (now 10 hours a week) of client zooms.

I told him I will give him some time but that I wlll divorce him if this continues much longer. I feel humiliated, hugely disrespected, that my patience is running low and he is killing my love for him with this. I am also angry at how much he expects me to handle by myself with our kids. At some point,  I will not be able to go back to him. That is the truth, I did not say it to persuade him either way. It was not an ultimatum it is just a statement of facts. I wanted to feel like i warned him of this when/if it happens. And if I really think about it, I think it might possibly even too late for me to love him fully again now. It will never be the same. I am on the fence. I am honestly not sure. I def have like zero respect for him. It might be easier to just cut ties now and try to start over clean.

He wants to come back back first week of April to see us. I announced my plans for their spring break in April to take them to see my friend and also told him we will not stay longer than 4 weeks at our place in Antalya in July and I will be there with kids, they will not stay there without me. He can fly over in June to help me get them out there. He said yes ok to all. If we do break up, he said he wants nothing asset-wise and he just wants it written that all will go to our kids. I told him he will have to pay child support and he agreed he will 'do his best' about that. (obvs that is tbd). Custody wise, he will never steal kids /take kids etc. He knows they are better off with me. He said he lives with so much guilt and shame and cries all the time - but not enough to stop this apparently. I told him I suspected he has just blamed me for his depression and does he think cutting me out will just fix it and he kind of said that was maybe true. He said he knows he is doing wrong and feels that he will be punished for this from God and he expects to be. etc etc.  I told him if he introduces this particular woman to our children, ever,  I wlll tell our daughter (eventually, not at 10) that she was his secret AP while we were married. When she asks ab our divorce, I wlll not lie to protect him or her, and tell her the truth.

Ok so lots of blathering on here. I do wonder, is this a stage of MLC? or is this just a bog standard mid-life affair/men-opause? I really don't know anymore. The only thing I wil say is that the suddenness of this, the completely out of character this is (not to want a job, not to want to see his kids every day), personality changes, all the lies he told (he was an honest person before), the crying and deep depression, makes me think that this is something more. He told me he is glad I now know the truth. he is not monstering at me at all now. He is trying to kiss and hug me etc.

He is so much happier today, because he knows he is leaving soon and booked his ticket for Monday to get away and go see her. He is now high energy -he went from low energy wallower to high energy replay like overnight. I mean, it's like a different person than what's been here for 2 weeks.

I feel pure revision and disgust for him to be honest. He is not really sorry or repentant. He just wants to keep going like this. I don't think he believes I could ever leave him. Despite what he says, I don't think he really loves me or he would not do this to me, but at the same time, the guy he is now is like a diff version of the guy I've known for 15 years. He acts like he's 20-something, wears weird jewellry, and he is not living in reality. It's like he's completely escaping and convincing himself that this alternative reality is where he can live.

No one in my life will understand this. No one will ever understand how I can even leave the door open for him at all at this stage. I feel pathetic for even possibly going along with this for any amount of time. It is crushing my self esteem kind of. I really don't know what I'm doing right now.

I am setting boundaries, I am expressing my frustation, I am warning him that cake eating cannot continue indefinitely and I feel like I am getting no where. I do want him to go Monday, I just wish HE didn't want to if that makes sense.

Thanks in advance for any and all wisdom! 

[forthetrees]

For me there´s a huge disconnect between asking for time and immediately going off on a one week get-away with ow. If someone really is considering working it out, I would think that they would use the time to be by themselves for a deep introspection. Remember, look at actions over words. If you discounted his words, the actions of leaving to spend time with her speaks volumes. If you are still on the fence I´d ask him to explain what his request for time really means- time to do what?

A while back NPR interviewed an author, Finn Murphy, who blew up his family with MLC behavior. He described as taking a match to his family. He was a long haul trucker and wrote a book, The Long Haul. Here´s the bit from the NPR interview:

MURPHY: So I was on - living on Nantucket Island as a high-profile businessman and citizen and community activist. I was actually chairman of the county commissioners on Nantucket. I was a police commissioner. I was the airport commissioner. I was on the board of the chamber of commerce. I was a successful person, married, living in a small town. And, well, what happened is I got into a relationship with a woman who wasn't my wife. And my life exploded. Or probably more accurately, I took a match to my life and blew it to pieces. And so Nantucket is not a place where that kind of thing is going to be unnoticed or uncommented upon.

And I moved to Colorado, and I called up an old driver friend of mine who started his own trucking moving company. And I said, I don't know what I'm supposed to be doing now with my life. But I had always kept my commercial driver's license just because. And so then I went back out on the road because I didn't know what to do - completely lost. And you know what? There's a lot of us out there - a lot of drivers who are like that. And I knew I'd have plenty of company.

I salute you for not being his uber lift to LAX. The curious thing is that he seems to blame you for his feeling of being emasculated because your job is the one carrying the family but he´s willing to dump his family to be a boy-toy. It does not add up. How is that going to fill the self-esteem hole he has dug? You don´t have to commit to a trip to Turkey this far in advance. If it all goes to $hit before then do you really want to vacation there? Bottomline, protect your health.

FTT

[KayDee]

The curious thing is that he seems to blame you for his feeling of being emasculated because your job is the one carrying the family but he´s willing to dump his family to be a boy-toy. It does not add up. How is that going to fill the self-esteem hole he has dug?

Was thinking the exact same thing. Where did the muffin cooking dream of a wife go?

Also, note of caution about what he says he will or won't do regarding finances and childcare. You cannot trust him at the moment. You must put your needs and your kids first. Don't rely on what he says. Too many stories here (and from my own book) that says they forget what they say, drop it when it has consequences for them that they don't like, or can't afford or, the OW prods them to do otherwise.

You are not pathetic for giving this situation space. You are wise. You have your hand on the tiller now and you can decide things at a time that suits you.

And just a note about LOVE - he doesn't love himself, how can he love anyone else?

(((hugs)))

[marvin4242]

He said he loves me, he will love me forever, he does not want to lose me or this family. He said he is asking for some time to figure it out. He is leaving here Monday and he is flying to meet her in Barcelona.

I know this is probably what you want to hear, but all of this is confusion, fog and means nothing. It is standard script. Want to know something? My wife, in all sincerity, said to me that she just wanted one year and she would be back. Right before she flew off to go spend some time with her "soul mate." Seven years later (and after many many changes and alterations and infinite confusion) she is still with him, but no longer as happy with him (she has been staying at our house now for well over a year without him but is going back in 2 weeks to see him again), and she never used the "time" to heal or figure anything out. She just kept blowing things up.

I am only sharing this so you can make clear headed decisions about where your limits are and as much as we all hope and wish things to be true I would urge you to try to not fall into your own fog of wishful thinking. A very good guide that has served me well is this: ignore the words and watch the actions, they are much closer to reality. The words are NOT matching the actions.

[amazinglove]

thank you for the replies! you are so right about the actions not matching the words! And also I am so grateful to be reminded ab all the inconsistencies here. You all are such a lifeline for me.

I've told him tonight that today- our wedding anniversary - has to be our goodbye.  I was not bluffing, I would not bluff with him. You all have warned me repeatedly that with MLC'ers that does not work. But I said that we had a true love and that I cannot share him with another and he has to go on with his life and I will mine. I was not rash, I was not angry or emotional, It was just very clear in my head. I felt my heart lift and a peace immediately afterwards.

We can discuss paperwork maybe before he leaves. I will think about how best to broach this.

I said that our problem is not a dead sex life, or my personality/control  or anything else, it's that you don't want to be the person you were anymore. You want to be someone else. And I loved that other guy. He agreed. He wants to be someone else - I think he really hates himself - but at the same time, is narcissistic enough to want to keep me in his back pocket.

He literally was romantic with me this am and then booked his plane ticket to leave. And he is going directly to her. That was a wake up call for me let me tell you.

He is in there now reading to our son. He is lovely with him (mostly) and our kids do adore him. Now that he knows he is leaving he is really throwing himself into it.  I will not stop him coming back in April but I might not stick around while he's here. Maybe I'll go to NYC again or go see friends in London. If I'm honest, I still have some hope that he might come back truly repentant, but I also know that the man he is now I do not respect or want, and he prob cannot do the work he needs to do to come back. Altho I still have some hope in my heart, I am willing to lose him because the way I see it, unfortunately, I have already lost him.

It's clear to me that he is planning a future with someone, and he's excited about it. While I was away in NYC he started to make plans with her, and since he knows he will leave Monday and has an ending in sight, he's like a diff, much happier man.  I'm starting to feel more and more that our steps from here on out are not designed to be taken together. God help me, I really meant it when I said I was letting him go.

 I cannot tell you enough what a good man he used to be. The best one I knew. It's in honor of that guy that I've been as forgiving as I've been.  The man in front of me now is like a shell, a pale imitation of that glorious specimen of a man I once had, and whose children I now raise. I will send him in peace, but honestly, I doubt he'll ever find it on his own.

I am working on my own healing from here on out.

thanks for your wisdom as ever!

[UrsaMajor]

Just as some additional food for thought, his Moscow Mule might not end up as rich or supportive as he is currently dreaming. With the current world geopolitical situation, she could very well find herself on the wrong side of Putin's government or the wrong side of the Sanctions Regime. In either case, her life (and therefore his as her boy-toy) will dramatically change.

Personally, I think you are VERY wise to be putting up a firewall between you and him (and by default her).

His problem is NOT that he "wants to be someone else"as it is that he has a deep-seated loathing of who he really is that has been drummed into him from outside somehow (FOO issues). He has never learned how to sooth himself or confront/exorcise/banish his own internal demons, having instead covering them over with the bandaid of external validation. That works for a while but at some point, it doesn't. Even the best spouse int eh world can not keep plastering that wound over because it just keeps getting deeper and deeper and more infected until it reaches the core and blows up. However, instead of really working on himself and learning how to love himself, he is turning to the next Band-Aid provider. As long as he keeps turning to the next Band-Aid provider and doesn't do the work needed to heal the rot at the core, he will not EVER find happiness or relief. He will continue to be "that guy" that he hates because, hey, until one does the work needed, no matter how fast and how far they run, there they are... They can't outrun themselves (although some literally die trying).

It is easier to blame others, find fault in the external world, with the LBS, than it is to really look inside at the issues that are causing their pain, because, to do that means that they have to take responsibility for themselves, for their actions,and for the consequences resulting from their actions.

[Treasur]

He said he loves me, he will love me forever, he does not want to lose me or this family. He said he is asking for some time to figure it out. He is leaving here Monday and he is flying to meet her in Barcelona.

I know this is probably what you want to hear, but all of this is confusion, fog and means nothing. It is standard script. Want to know something? My wife, in all sincerity, said to me that she just wanted one year and she would be back. Right before she flew off to go spend some time with her "soul mate." Seven years later (and after many many changes and alterations and infinite confusion) she is still with him, but no longer as happy with him (she has been staying at our house now for well over a year without him but is going back in 2 weeks to see him again), and she never used the "time" to heal or figure anything out. She just kept blowing things up.

I am only sharing this so you can make clear headed decisions about where your limits are and as much as we all hope and wish things to be true I would urge you to try to not fall into your own fog of wishful thinking. A very good guide that has served me well is this: ignore the words and watch the actions, they are much closer to reality. The words are NOT matching the actions.

I have to agree. This was my experience too. My then h ummed and awwed, lots of declarations then silence then lots of sadz for about a year I think. My memory of those times is still a bit fuzzy, but it was awful and awfully confusing. I had no idea what was going on. And of course there were a lot of things going on with his ‘I need space and time, please don’t give up on us’ that I did not know about. But he did keep blowing things up, regardless of his words. And reader, turned out he married her lol.

The only difference in my situation from Marvin’s is that I have no contact or information about his life now, by my choice once we were divorced and he was married to someone else. So I have no idea if it worked out for him or if he is any happier or mentally healthy than he was when he blew up our life. No idea at all. I live as if he died tbh.

And why tbh I think the best thing most of us can do is work with the cards we have in our hand and do what we need to do to keep our own head above water. To accept the actions we can see rather than the assumptions and words I so wanted to believe bc the actions made no sense to me at all. But that included, for me, really letting go of his role in my life and mine in his bc that is what his actions brought in reality. Just a sample of one though 

[KayDee]

I have to agree. This was my experience too. My then h ummed and awwed, lots of declarations then silence then lots of sadz for about a year I think. My memory of those times is still a bit fuzzy, but it was awful and awfully confusing. I had no idea what was going on. And of course there were a lot of things going on with his ‘I need space and time, please don’t give up on us’ that I did not know about. But he did keep blowing things up, regardless of his words. And reader, turned out he married her lol.

Mine too, I'm afraid. I have had the Uber Sadz and despite what seems like a lot of awareness that it is him, that he needs help, that he is utterly ashamed of what he did, he still keeps on blowing things up. In other words, ditto.

Wanted also to comment of UM's last post. A great, if not devastating, description of how people who don't like themselves can behave. Always seeking outside validation to feel whole, and perhaps in midlife fracture it becomes an accelerated addiction. I also believe the crisis person does not like how they see themselves reflected in their spouse's eyes. They know (deep or not so deep down) that their behaviour is despicable - many want to smash that mirror. Then they need to find someone that says 'you are such a good person'.

And thank you for resurrecting the moniker Moscow Mule. Churlish of me, I know, to chuckle at a nickname, but we can't be angels. My friend has nicknamed my H's OW - The Lifeboat. The Lifeboat in search of a drowning man. Yesterday, my friend downgraded this to a pedalo. In the end, OW's legs will get tired, I suppose.

[Reinventing]

Altho I still have some hope in my heart, I am willing to lose him because the way I see it, unfortunately, I have already lost him.

Yes, this took me a long time to grasp. He was already gone.

It just took time for my head and heart to catch up to that.

[amazinglove]

I just wanted to add in regards to the OW, sure, she may be in his ear, and it’s all infuriating, but in the end you will realize it doesn’t matter. He’s responsible for his choices. That includes the choice to leave his children again after two weeks, as much as you want to shield them from that pain. The only way to protect kids in these situations is to try to help them see that it’s not about them, none of it is their fault and that you can’t control other peoples actions but that other peoples actions are not a statement about who you are. Kids identify themselves as their parents, there’s no separation for them. if someone says their parent is bad, it means they are bad. If they perceive their parents to be bad, they perceive themselves to be bad. You can help them see that his actions aren’t a reflection of them, but you can’t do anything about his actions. he’ll have to live with the fallout of that, of leaving his kids to go try to find some part of himself in another human being.

this was SO helpful to me. you have no idea. thank you!

[amazinglove]

I'm sitting here next to a blazing fire looking out at a pounding rain on the windows. One of my favourite places to be. I had two meetings cancel today so I thought I'd give an update.

H left yesterday. it was a tough goodbye for all of us. He cried more than the rest of us though. I woke up this morning and when I remembered he was gone, my first reaction was relief. Having said that, it was very clear to me that I still have deep love for him (more than I thought I did)  and I wish him out of this pit he's in (of his own making). I do have some compassion for him though, I really do. He is miserable. I have never seen a sadder person.

We had a really productive conversation on Sunday. We were running errands (he got new tires for the car) It was non-confrontative but it was v honest.  He knows that I have been pushed past the limit of behavior I can accept and that altho I love and wish him with us, I am unwilling to continue as his wife, divorce papers or no. He expressed doubt, fear, regret, all the emotions, but he still got on the plane. I did NOT take him to the airport.

He has been messaging me almost from the moment he left. He now says he feels strange being there with her. Maybe that's because she is the Prince of Darkness in a human body? Whatever. I hope she sees him texting me and gets angry. Anyway, I am keeping contact as close to zero as I can. I refuse to engage or update him on our lives here while he is with her. And if his mental fog lifts even slightly (which it appears to be doing)  that's a good thing, for him, and for the kids for sure - and maybe for us. Maybe.

These MLC timelines are tough to get around tho. I hear you, people don't just 'snap back' into place. I believe it. Even if he IS able to walk away from her, which is still prob unlikely I guess, what shape does he 'come back' in? It's a completely totaled car. I have no idea how that even repairs. Or honestly, if I want to be a part of that. There is so much here at the beginning of 'how can I get him back?" and then you go thru so much with them and you're finally like, 'could I ever live with them again/take them back?" And don't get me wrong,  I know I am not there with him (he's not even asking yet and may never) but I can see it, I can feel it - that is going to be a question for me at some point.

He tells me he loves me almost constantly now. He calls me 'hon' again in messages. He gave me most of what is in his bank account. He turned over all his stocks to me 'for the kids' future'. There is no monstering going on - altho I'm geared up that that could change when i push back hard on something.

Also did anyone feel like their MLC spouse had like slipped 20-30 points in IQ? What IS that about? Honestly, he seemed so dumb! I felt like he was helpless, powerless, constantly confused, forgetting everything, I looked at the eight stages book again last night and it seems to track with a kind of regression - bc the person who was here was like a teenager more than a man. A teen who has never been a parent, thought of his own comfort first, and had no idea even how to parent. It was really weird. He loved on the kids but it was more like a big brother. It was so strange to observe. He was a VERY attentive and active dad - a really good one- prior to this or maybe it wouldn't be so crazy to see.

You all always remind me about detachment and focusing on myself, that which is in my control - and as the only sane parent my kids have.  That remains my goal. I am making plans for the kids' spring break in early April and I have my sis and a gf coming out here from NYC end of March. One of my best friends (in Sydney) may come out in March too. I pushed forward a minor cosmetic procedure (one I've been wanting for years) to early March as I didnt' want to do it while he was here.All good things.

I will look at real estate/houses when I'm out visiting my friend in Bentonville, Arkansas in April. I am ready to leave California in 2025 and start over in a new locale. This former NYC/London glam girl now wants a truck, chickens and a sheep.

God has good plans.

[WHY]

Great journaling.  Just a word of caution about wanting to run away with chickens to fantasy land.  All us LBS have had the the same thought process as some point or another.  Running away, starting over, putting this old life behind us, meet someone new and then "I will finally be happy again". 

Sound familiar?  Yip that the MLCer fantasy land plan.  But us LBS know better.  Unless we resolve our internal unhappiness first, no matter where we go, or who we're with, we wont find happiness until we're healed internally.  Nothing will fill our leaking bucket until we fix the leaks first. 

So you may very well end up with chickens at the end of the day!  But there shouldnt be any rush, or drastic, overnight decisions to get there.  Take your time, work on yourself, and dont be afraid of what lies ahead.  Heck embrace it    

[marvin4242]

Thank you for the update. And great point by Why. I just wanted to add that as has been said many times whatever happens to our  MLCer also starts a process in us. Some say that their crisis triggers our crisis. it could be that, but it also could be a phase where we have to re-examine things we took for granted, and it can be an opportunity for us to grow, adjust and realign ourselves and come out of a habitual existence. I am in no way saying it’s a worthwhile thing to go through so much damage, but I’m saying expect things to not be the same for you going forward it may even be a kind of an opportunity.

As an example of one, my life looks very different than where it was headed seven years ago. Would I say it’s “good that it happened?” No. I don’t think it’s better or worse, it is different. But I can say that I am much more secure and settled with myself, and make decisions more with understanding myself. Yes it took a long time but it happened.

And looking at my wife today, if I had not embraced the opportunity to focus on that, I would still be embroiled in her pain, unhappiness, and the fact that she has nothing to give to anyone else. Just a sample of one as they say.

[beyondblessed]

As many others have replied, my xh acted like his world was about to end one minute and the next like he won the lottery.  I, of course, had no idea WTH was going on because his moods cycled so much.  Right after he told me he wanted a divorce, he went straight to our basement and cried, but then became super pissed that I'd caught him breaking down.  It was too much,  and honestly,  in those early days, I truly feared he would do something to harm himself.  But, alas, 8 years later, he's still alive and still trying to find his way.

I stopped all contact almost immediately after the D was filed, and have no idea what his life is like now.  Apparently, the last year or so, he took a job where my niece works on her summers off from college, and I guess he's been brazen enough to speak to her, after spending 8 years running away from my family if paths crossed lol, so who knows?  Maybe he's found some peace or whatever?  I moved over an hour away from that area and have been happily married to my true soulmate for about 2 years now. I could not care less what he's been up to, but my niece and sister do say how weird he acts now lol. And, just so you know,  he is no longer with OW.  Probably not surprising since that whole relationship was based on lies and crazy making.  Just as it is rare for them to do the healing work it would take for them to come back,  rarely do they find the happiness with the AP that they thought they would when the ran away from us.  Sad for them, but that's what actions and consequences are all about.

Start living for you and your kids.  You will be ok once the initial shock wears off.  You are off kilter now because this is new territory for you, but as time passes, you will regain your footing and be on solid ground again.  He, however, is in sinking sand and grasping at whatever he can to save himself.  This likely won't end the way he hopes.

[Nas]

Sitting by the fire watching the rain sounds fantastic. I used to love a good thunderstorm at my house, I had this very peaceful place where I would sit during them.

In regards to making a big move cross country, I would say that it’s just very important to really look at and understand your motivations for doing so. It can be a reactive desire to pack up and go start fresh somewhere new. It depends why you ended up where you are in the first place, where you’ve been before, and the kind of life you want. I moved 700 miles away after BD and for me, it was the best thing I could ever have done. in making the decision, I talked at length with my therapist at the time about my trauma-induced long dormant but never truly healed disorganized attachment that was triggered by BD and whether the urge to move so far away was a part of that. I had to make the commitment to myself that I would focus on that and actually heal no matter where I was. No matter how hard it was.

But my life was very different than yours and I did not have children or any real  family to factor into my decision. My marriage had been lived entirely around my husband and his needs and his wants and his demands. I put a lot of thought into where I wanted to go, I visited many different places before settling on one, and I was only there a short time but it was a great time in my life, even though I was of of course still grieving the whole time I was there. It was the first and only time that I could actually see myself in the future, living instead of just existing. But that’s because I hadn’t existed in my marriage. Moving, immersing myself in a new environment, casually dating (and being honest about that), all of it was a way to start to accept myself and my right to exist in the world.

I have been A LOT of things in my life, hardly any of them consciously. Some of them make for great stories, none of them were particularly “me.“ So I think really starting with how you became a NYC/London glam girl would be a place to start. We can learn so much about ourselves by actually looking back at who we’ve been and why. At least, I have. As time goes on, as you reflect on who you were and are, you may become more clear as to whether you really are a chickens and pick up truck kind of girl.

[amazinglove]

Ok here's my question. How did you all handle cake eaters/clinging boomerangs/never close the door types?

So many people on here have MLC'ers gunning for divorce. Mine is the opposite. Says he will never sign papers or "let me" stop being his wife.
Meanwhile he is traipsing around Europe with the Moscow Mule. (she is 17 years older than him and a grandmother so  "Russian granny-lover' is also appropriate as a moniker). I loved Mamma Bear's 'BOWSER' nickname for the OW. makes me smile so much.

I know I had told myself i wanted to 'stand' for this marriage,  but last night I emailed him that the idea of them together is excruciating and I am over and out. Let's file and end this marriage (which is a sham now) with dignity and love and let each other go. He is due back here early April (we had planned those dates long ago when I thought we were completely broken up). He says he wants to rebuild a monogamous (ie no her) marriage with me when he comes back in 5 weeks, that he has broken up with her (but has some things he has to take care of before he can leave her), and he loves me and will love me forever.  Oh and I will never let you go. Blah Blah Blah. Honestly if you look at the actions it is the exact opposite of what he says. And he's certainly not rushing back here to save anything with me, at all.

I believe they have a romantic trip planned or are on it now.  And he wants to take that before he leaves her. I do believe he's told her that they don't have a future - primarily bc if he gets back with me he cannot drive over and secretly meet up with her (she's not in the same country) but who knows? maybe they will continue their emotional affair indefinitely until he BD's on me again. OR another OW.

What do I do? we are only like 10 months from BD and 5 months from the the atomic BD. He is with her now (i found out she is v rich) swanning around Europe like a professional (44 year old and depressed) toyboy for hire and if he stays with her, he never has to buckle down and find a new job, or day to day parent two amazing and wonderful but high maintenance little kids. His lifestyle with her is restaurants, penthouses and nightlife in Europe, with us is tantrums, ADHD, kids fighting, runny noses, homework, school runs, etc. And he hates where we live in CA, he has since the day we moved here. If you're from NYC or London, there are no good restaurants in Orange County. There, I said it, and yes, I will stand by this.

It's weird bc on the one hand, we definitely cannot compete with that other bright lights big city self-centered lifestyle and on the other hand, I would not trade these difficult days in the boring suburbs for all the world. Because it's where THEY are. Walking alongside the precious humans as they grow is the honor and privilege of my life.

Anyway, full of pain last night,  I emailed him that I can't just sit around and wait to see if he will actually choose me. That this has never been my character and never will be. I am therefore choosing to be alone. In effect, I am choosing myself. I can't be his wife and his actions show me that he cares more about hurting her feelings or breaking promises to her, than he does to me. etc etc. I want to move on. Is that a bad idea for a MLC man? I can't understand how he thinks that I will never, under any circumstances choose to leave him or stop loving him and he will literally have no say in that. WTAF?

When he comes back here in a month, and he will, either way for kids - should I leave again? should i cut off all physical contact including hugs? he needs to stay in this home, that is def happening but i can get away. the love i had for him is ebbing away, it's dying right in front of me. I loved him so much. but i am afraid i can't get it back. And i believe he is unwilling and prob unable to do the work required to win my trust and heart back. I still don't think he gets it at all - how much permanent damage he has done. Anyone of you relate to any of this?

I believe I know what this panel of my trusted advisors is going to say: don't sell your CA house and escape to the country and buy chickens, a flatbed and a sheep - yet.  Slow your breathing and your steps and focus on what you can control and your own healing. Stop trying to figure him out. Detach, get some space, go no contact unless about kids. Is that right?

Helpfully I have three diff friends coming out to stay with me in March. And a trip planned with kids in early April to Bentonville, Ark to see my best friend in all the world. I will have lots and lots of girlfriend/margarita time.

[Dragonfly33]

Amazing I am sorry are in this situation. I was once in your sitch. I had a boomerang clinging MLCer for over two years. My H told me back then he didn’t want to lose me, he was scared to lose me, he loved me and was willing to wait for ten years until I could forgive him. On the other hand he also told me he wouldn’t give up the OW and their communication because he didn’t want me to control him. He wanted to have freedom to talk to any woman he wanted. He said I was controlling and I was trying to control his interaction with the OW. But he wanted me to trust him. That’s after cheating and lying on me. Then, when I didn’t agree, he quickly moved on to another OW with two children. I kept telling him at the time to file for divorce bec I couldn’t handle it. He was the one who didn’t want. And when he did file after he found the OW with two kids, he withdrew it as well when I finally agreed saying he wanted me to give him another chance. And when I did, I was living in hell. It was sooooo exhausting that I realised he will never change. I kicked him out finally and after less than a month came OW4 who described herself as a hedonist. It makes sense now. My xh didn’t want the responsibility of bejng a married man. He wants to live a life of being happy go lucky just like the OW. What Im trying to say is these promises are empty. Do not believe them. It took me sooo long to finally let him go. And it was so painful but it was for my own mental health. My xh was always checking if I was still within his reach. He was constantly checking on me, making sure that I was in the loop. This is what’s exhausting because it keeps your hopes high. I thought my xh was different. I thought he would come out of it earlier. I remember the veterans told me I kept putting my fingers jn the blender knowing II was going to hurt myself. I didn’t file for divorce. I told my xh if he wanted divorce then he should file. And he did. In hindsight it was for the best. I cannot imagine myself being in that limbo for a long time. I believed I would get a sickness from the stress it caused me. I am very Catholic and I believe in staying married to one person. However, I realized back then, I cannot risk my health anymore. I was in therapy for 4 years because of what my xh did to me.  You will know what you have to do in time. You will just feel it.

[amazinglove]

Thanks Dragonfly! How long were you married? and was he faithful to you before BD? thank you! I'm so sorry you went thru this it sounds so brutal. And it is good for me to hear this! grateful for your honesty

[Ready2Transform]

I'm with Dragonfly on it. I also told my xH that he would have to be the one to file, and honestly, that put me at a great disadvantage once it actually happened. In hindsight, I would have filed right away, gotten myself more stable instead of waiting out his messed up brain, and trusted that if he did the work, we'd reconnect. We had been together over 20 years total at the time of BD, married over eleven. OW was also older in my case, also married, with three young adult children and a ton of financial problems. They ended up married to each other after the mutual divorces, and much worse off than I am alone. My vote is for following your gut and not losing yourself (and good years of your life and your kids' lives!).

[Zion]

I'm with Dragonfly on it. I also told my xH that he would have to be the one to file, and honestly, that put me at a great disadvantage

Same!  Ended up costing me a ton more to buy him out of our CA house…that I had exclusively paid the mortgage on for 2 years post separation. 

IMHo… Falling out of love with him is a blessing! Easier to protect yourself when not in fixing mode.

[Dragonfly33]

Amazing at BD we were married for 11 years , almost 15 at D day. My H did cheat on me a year after we got married or who knows when🙄. He already lied to me back then. We got married in 2008 found out he was flirting with OW 1 on fakebook with a fake account. So I don’t really know how many times he cheated on me as he travelled so many times for his work. He said he didn’t cheat on me but that’s what he always says even if he’s caught cheating. Anyway, as for the D l, where I live if doesn’t really matter who files first. We don’t have a disadvantage for those that didn’t file first. Like what rtt said, in hindsight I should have ended it early on after BD. I feel like I wasted years of my life trying to hang on to the marriage that was already nuked. There was nothing left except my fantasy at that time that my xh was a good man and that he would turn back into that good husband. Or I was just embarrassed being a separated woman. I didn’t want my marriage to end up like that of my parents’. However, the longer I waited for D the better it was for me financially since he earned way more than me. I got more from his pension fund. 

[xyzcf]

I believe I know what this panel of my trusted advisors is going to say: don't sell your CA house and escape to the country and buy chickens, a flatbed and a sheep - yet.  Slow your breathing and your steps and focus on what you can control and your own healing. Stop trying to figure him out. Detach, get some space, go no contact unless about kids. Is that right?

Helpfully I have three diff friends coming out to stay with me in March. And a trip planned with kids in early April to Bentonville, Ark to see my best friend in all the world. I will have lots and lots of girlfriend/margarita time.

It's a great thing to have people that we can run ideas by and obtain a variety of thoughts and views. I question though if we are actually giving "advice" that is useful to you in your situation. Actually can we even do that ( or any of your friends who you will be sharing your story with) since none of us have walked in your shoes, or are we projecting our own situation by advising you what to do based upon what happened in our own personal story?

It's easy for us to become "lost" in the monkey braining that goes on...exhausting too as we wait for the next text or email, the next visit, the next bit of information that we find out about and the ideas we form in our heads about what they are doing.

We are not there to see what they are up to, and what ever we think is happening may or may not be true.

All the advice isn't going to solve what is really the main issue....what do you want for yourself and for your family? When in a crisis, he's not giving you straight answers nor making any attempts to work at saving your marriage...I wouldn't expect him to at this stage.

It's hard to explore and examine options for our lives. We are not on the course that we were before they left. People will give you all kinds of opinions, and it's ok to weigh them...but it really comes down to this.

What do you want for yourself and your family? Taking him out of the equation for it is unlikely he's ready to work on your marriage...as is often said, actions speak louder than words.

You want to be sure that whatever decision you make is because it is something you have carefully weighed, not something that the majority of people think is right for you, but what you come to realize is right for you.

Most therapists will not give their opinion of what they think you should do...good ones anyway. Their job is to work with you so you can discover for yourself what fits. Their crisis causes many huge adjustments in our lives. What we think is "fair"..that they should take responsibility for their children's welfare is rarely the case...they are off in their own world getting their jollies in many ways that do not include responsibility for a family.

Who they were before the crisis, a good father, a loving husband is no longer who they are now and it is hard to see that clearly.

I will continue to encourage you to take your time, to slow down, perhaps stop sending him ultimatums. He is not in the picture presently and has not been for several months. You are taking care of it all..and doing so remarkably well.

Life is a risk. We can never be 100% sure that it will turn out the way we had planned, yet we still need to plan to make our lives work.

Whatever your own plan is, once you can sort that out, will be the right one for you. For today anyway....not to say that your plan cannot change in the future.
It's hard for me to explain my thoughts here...just a few observations from following your thread. My own perspective which may not be anything close to how you perceive things.

[amazinglove]

Thank you all!! All perspectives welcome and gratefully received!!
Xyxcf thanks for giving me such good questions to think about.
My husband was a great and faithful man before this. Our bond was, I thought, unshakable. So much has happened in the last 5 months it’s hard to see any hope presently but there is still love. So I guess there is some hope.
I am going to work on detaching and healing. I need to be in better shape when he gets back here in 5 weeks. He will be with his sisters after this week and has a minor surgery planned so galavanting will be on pause.
I am starting to solidify my needs, my goalposts, my bare minimums, so that when he shows up I can at least articulate what I need in order to try.
I agree about ultimatums but the thing is he has pushed me so far past my actual limits that I am like one argument away from filing for divorce. And I don’t believe he has the coping skills or emotional strength to put the work in to heal this. The bone is broken.
So my plan is to focus on me. I will break contact unless it’s about kids.
Lots of prayer, long walks, good music, reading, hard lemonade going on over here.
One question that occurs to me- do you think we give our spouses more of a break when it comes to cheating bc it is accompanied by such evidence of a complete mental breakdown? Mine has been manic, ranting (repeating same phrase over and over) constant sobbing etc. he never ever cried before this. So I wonder where is the line between compassion and holding people accountable.?

[WHY]

I have so many thoughts here.  XY nails it when saying most of us can’t offer advice because we’re tainted because of our own situations. This is so true.  You need to do what YOU have to do and take everything with a grain of salt. 

That said.  I have an at home wallower that filed for D but can’t seem to leave, yet won’t stop destroying me legally and financially and wanting to take the kids, the house etc.  It’s been mental torture and incredible suffering.

But I’ve read and learned so much here and always wondered about cake eating if I ever ended up in that situation.   So perhaps I’m a little more objective. 

My thoughts on cake eating is that they only do it so openly because they can, and they know you’re not going anywhere.  Otherwise they’d be underground and denying everything under the sun (at least for the clingers/boomerangs). 

Now you saying cake eating is a boundary to your H is fine.  But 1)what are you going to enforce it with.  And 2) are you actually going to go through with enforcement?

And I just really ask because 3) what do you hope to achieve when setting this boundary.   Really think about these 3 questions.   Because if your goal is actually to stop your own pain, I doubt that temporality preventing H from seeing OW will achieve this long term.  Because he will go back.   or go underground, or OW2.  With more lies and deceit.  And promise the world yet do the opposite.  It’s what they do. 

I think you need to first figure out if you’re going to stand or not.   That’s totally up to you and you alone.   My only $0.02  is that when you say things like you’re one argument away from D, then IMO, you’re not ready to make that decision.  People told me that you just know when you’re ready for D and it was so true.   It’s a much less emotional decision or a response to something that happened.   You won’t be driving yourself crazy, debating if you’re doing the right thing etc.   You must know. 

So I don’t think you should make the decision to stand or not stand right now, or D or not D etc.  give yourself time.  You’ll know when you’re ready.  The decision will be made for you IMO. 

You can however try a short term band aid to try stop your bleeding/pain by setting a boundary.   But again.  Truly ask yourself why you want to do this.   Are you trying to save your marriage by influencing your MLcers behavior.  Or trying to slow down your bleeding so you can buy some time before you know if you’re willing to stand or not.  Because trying to influence your MLCer will never work.  Threats, ultimatums.  Forget about it.  Never gonna work. 

But slowing bleeding?   I could see how this could work in the short term. 

For example, you could tell your H he is not welcome in your home or not welcome as part of your family while he is with OW.  That you would like him to be, but that its not an option while he’s seeing OW.   RCR had some good vids about her H and you should watch them to figure out the right wording.  I can’t recall exactly. 

He may agree to no OW, come home, promise the world, then seethe.  But what are you going to do about it when he breaks that boundary, which he will.  I think RCRs husband left 7 times!?   will your H checkout again and not sleep at home while OW is back on, or OW2, and respect your boundary?  Because what are you going to do when he doesn’t voluntarily leave?   Any can you handle that pain again even if he does?

Because if he defies you and you can’t get him to leave the house.   The boundary was worthless and just causes you more pain.  And at that point, for me personally, and this is just MY opinion, I would set a final boundary and file for D if he doesn’t respect it. 

Which at the end of all this, is the likely outcome if your H does not respect your 1st boundary.  But at least you bought yourself the time you need to just “know” if you’re ready to D. And can tell yourself you gave H a chance and gave the marriage a chance (even if deep down you knew it was never really an option unless H genuinely respects your 1st boundary and you’re willing to deal with the ongoing pain of back and forth).

Remember the boundary is that no sleeping at home or part of the family as long as he’s seeing OW.  But he could chose to see OW and not sleep at home / be part of the family and he would be respecting your boundary!!  And you would need to be ok with this. 

 Otherwise you should be setting a different boundary.  That you’ll file for D if he doesn’t stop seeing OW.  Which you know he most likely wont stick to long term.  And you would need to be ok with all outcomes like D (which I don’t think you’re ready to make that decision).

The choice of boundary depends on what you hope to achieve. 

I’m so sorry you’re in this position.  It sucks.  But MLC is brutal.

And I reread my message.  It’s a little all over the place (on my phone at 2am and I’m exhausted).  I hope some of it helps. 
. 

[A Life Unimagined]

I am so sorry you are going through this. We are all on a journey we did not want nor did we ever imagine, but here we are. This forum, thank God, has offered me the comfort and answers I need to continue to put one foot in front of the other. My MLC husband dropped the bomb on me on August 28, 2024, and moved out of our home on October 16, 2024. I found out shortly before Christmas that he has also been having an affair with a 23-year old intern he hired (he's 54 years old). Since then it has been a whirlwind of unimaginable pain, anxiety and grief for me, my children and our extended family members who all loved him very much and, up until bomb drop, regarded him as a pillar of morality - a loving and devoted husband and father with unwavering principles. So I get it...I know you are going through excruciating pain and I hope my thoughts on this can help you.
 
"How do I take my heart off the table?"

Although possible, it is certainly not a process that happens overnight and it's definitely not without additional pain. Due to overwhelming anxiety that was jeopardizing my health, I had to accept that my marriage and life as I knew them were over. I had to accept that the man I was married to for 17 wonderful years was "dead" - he was not coming back. This strategy helped me to protect my precious memories and separate them from the MLC version of this man that now has a warped view of our history and is doing everything can to taint those memories. I made the conscious decision not to hate my pre-MLC husband for all of the hurt his MLC twin was causing. So I laid my pre-MLC husband to rest, going through the typical grieving process a widow(er) experiences.

I removed any and all pictures of him from my phone, downloading them onto a USB-stick that I have placed with my children's photo albums. I took down our couple photos from around the house, keeping only those of him and the kids that are in each of the children's bedrooms (they should keep memories/mementos of their father), and I unfollowed (although still connected with) him on social media so that I do not see any of his posts/content. I then packed away his clothes and stacked the boxes in a spare room so that I don't have constant reminders each time I get dressed. I didn't do these things out of spite or anger - I did these things to protect my peace. I did these things to minimize the anxiety, pain and distress. I did these things for my mental and physical health because my children deserve one healthy parent - one who can be fully present FOR THEM and to help them deal with THEIR grief and pain.

I took my focus off my MLC husband (and marriage), and decided to focus on my kids. The children are the ones that suffer the most in this situation and coming to the recognition that life MUST continue for them (with or without my MLC husband) is what really helped me to heal and move forward with my decisions. 

What you choose to do in the end will become clearer to you as you detach and your heart progressively "comes off the table". You can and will build a better life with your children. You WILL become stronger, more independent, more resilient, and more confident in yourself as a woman and mother. Your children will admire you for being the loving constant in their lives, and the reward of their unconditional love is something NO ONE and NOTHING can ever take away from you - EVER.

I wish you all the best and know that you are not alone in this. God bless you and your children.

[Treasur]

Lots of wise words and questions for your reflections from other posters.

The common underlying thread seems to be about taking the time and space to really consider what you want and what you and your kids need, and the various options you can see you might have. That sounds easy, doesn’t it, but most of us know all too well that our honest answer initially is some version of I Want What I Had and Not This followed by some longer term version of How Do I Get That and Not This Eventually 

And of course that sits uncomfortably with the current This Is Actually Happening Right Now and I Don’t Know What To Do and I Need A Plan feeling…..
So it’s not easy at all.
And, as xyzcf rightly says, what really matters most is how you see your current situation and what you feel able and ready to do - or not do - based on the information currently available to you. So it’s truly not a one size fits all thing.

Imho giving ourselves the time and soace to let our own thoughts and feelings bubble for a bit before we choose a path that works for us best is useful, wise and often deeply uncomfortable. It tends to raise questions that are about more than just what we want or need, questions about what we believe or assume or expect. And why. And how those shape our own lens on the current situation, and our own behaviour and actions. Or not.

And again jmo but there is a difference between Want and Need.
Which also can take a little time to prise apart.

Again jmo, but it can also be useful to pull your timeline in closer. To focus more on what you want and need Now, and Next, and perhaps After That rather than trying to preguess months or years down the line.

If you had to say what you and your kids need now, what would that be? For the next few days? Or the next couple of weeks?

There’s a truism in life that when we don’t know quite what to do, it is often worth doing not very much. Allowing time and events to inform us, letting things come rather than hunting them down. Letting ourselves settle a bit, letting ourselves tune in to our own deepest instincts and judgement with less doubt rather than being hoiked around by events that distract us. Some of us found that limiting interaction with events for a while, and therefore our spouse, was necessary in order to feel that. Others didn’t. You know best what will work for you, I suspect.

But I do think there is some truth in that ‘when you know, you know’ moment about big choices you might make. And tbh with the ‘if you still feel confused, then your spouse is not in the useful repairing anything place’ irrespective of what they say. When you know that words and actions don’t match even though you wish they did.

Trust what your gut says in your calmer moments. Both about what the situation really looks like to you and about what you need given how you see it. And that it’s ok too to change your mind as time and events and priorities change. 

[amazinglove]

You are the most wonderful group of people! Honestly, I am just amazed by the generosity of spirit here, the willingness to share and go back over painful memories in order to help someone else and the sheer wisdom on offer! there are not enough words for me to express my gratitude.

I woke up this morning to plaintive what's apps from H ' hi hon how are you? how are kids? i love you. i miss you etc etc."

I was going to ignore. But then i decided not to let that lie stand.

I replied "this is not love. what you are doing is not love. what you have broken, what you are still breaking, i'm not sure it's fixable. you know i am in tremendous pain but other things matter more. Another woman's feelings? That is not a husband. That is not my husband. I don't want him. My email is really how I feel. I took my time to write it. Pls don't contact me again until you are away from her. I will update you on anything important ab the kids. I need time and space to heal and move on."

And as I wrote it, I realized it was the truth. The words just came. My old marriage really is dead and I need to mourn it and move on from it. The pain is big, because it was a big love and it's ending is like breaking the sky.

 I realize that there are two possibilities - but both are good outcomes. He does the emotional work needed to repair this $h!teshow (which will take a miracle of God I admit) and we rebuild stronger than ever, or I stride ahead on my own with my gorgeous kids and see all the good plans God has. 

Either way, as someone wiser than me said, it will be all right in the end, and if it's not all right, it's not the end.

[Dragonfly33]

Amazing you reminded me of being in your situation. I know how difficult and confusing it is especially when they try to manipulate you by saying those words you want to hear. My exh was just like that. Suddenly he would text me telling me how much he misses me and loves me but his actions were totally different. Like what Treasur said, you will just know what to do when you are ready. I changed my mind so many times believe me. I was in terrible pain because what I wanted was my old H. But he was gone and he wouldn’t come back anymore. That person was dead. Be kind to yourself. I would not wish this situation to anyone not even to my worst enemy. It’s just brutally painful.

[Treasur]

What you may come to see is that, right now, your words to him will prove to be as futile as his to you. Sorry. I know that makes no sense either probably.

Actions matter more than words. His and yours.

I wonder what would have happened if you had gone with your first instinct and just ignored his text……

Given his track record, I’d start planning now what you will do - or not do - to SHOW your boundaries as opposed to TELL your boundaries when he ignores them. Or indeed ask as you essentially did here. Bc if I were a betting woman, I’d bet he will and that he will use contacting your children as an easy gateway. These folks like centrality and attention, and, like small kids, tend to act out to get it. 3 days max I’d bet lol. Sorry.

[xyzcf]

One thing that I am sure of, it does not matter what you say or do not say, what you send in a message or any things that make sense to you that you think he might listen to you...it will not make a difference in his crisis.

We want to be heard. We want to feel like we have tried. We feel we should have some say in all of this. We speak our minds until there comes a point when the realization sets in......if it is better for you to withdraw any type of reasoning communication, then do so...if it feels right to you to send him your thoughts, then do so. Because he is out of the country, you have not had much face to face time with him.

Each person's story is different. No two are alike, no two relationships are alike, nor belief systems, not our own childhood teachings.

Take what you feel is helpful and disregard the rest.

You are doing the best you can. You have been successful in your life, in your work, as a mother, as a wife.....perhaps you approach your marriage ending in a similar way to other aspects of how you deal with situations that come up in life...yet nothing has prepared us for this. So sometimes we are going blind and we learn..yes we learn what works for us and what doesn't.

But as I wrote in my previous post...what do you want for yourself and your family? When you are clear aboiut that question, you will know what you will do to get to that place.

[Reinventing]

Amazinglove,

I'm glad you spoke your truth and it felt as the truth coming from you. Sometimes we need to say it, to call it out, even if it doesn't change what they do.

Kudos to you.

[amazinglove]

Ok so Treasur it wasn’t 3 days, he replied immediately.

“Biggest mistake, love you, miss you pls give me another chance etc. I want to try to fix this with you I’m so sorry, I will do anything” I won’t bore you with my replies but they were along the lines of words are cheap.

Here’s my question: if he wants to come back here to rebuild things or try to, I’m not going to say “well, you are set to be in replay for another year at least so let’s not even try”  i mean…?

I have to try. I just do. For my kids sake if nothing else. A dual country divorce is a nightmare for them. I have to let him try. I don’t know what is fixable or what isn’t and I strongly doubt that he will be willing to do the work required but I want to try, I think, I am going to encourage him not to come for a few weeks bc I want time to clear my head. He will be with his sisters and parents during this time just for clarity.

I have started to think about what I need from him to even attempt this and he won’t like it but if it’s a bare minimum for me (he gets medical help or advice of some kind for his depression, he gets a job that keeps him busy, he stops running away to other countries from our family all the time and settles back into our lives, he doesn’t lie to me ever again, etc)  if he balks I will know we can’t hold it together. I will also see about a “post nuptial agreement “ so if we do separate we have already organized finances and custody agreements.

The thing is guys, it looks like car is coming back to the driveway. But the car is totaled!!!!

[Treasur]

Ha ha I claim my prize!

But more seriously, I understand that you feel you have to try. We all do. We all did in our own ways. Particularly bc you have kids, but not just bc of that. We get it. It might work, it might not…but you feel you have to try. It may even be the case that if it doesn’t prove do-able, you will feel more at peace knowing you tried.

What’s interesting - from reading story after story here - is how similar some of our default LBS responses can be. What’s good about that imho is it allows those newer LBS to consider different options in how they respond to similar situations. So, MLCer does ‘oh, terrible mistake, I want to come back’ and LBS jumps pretty quickly into mentally planning how that might work and what everyone involved needs to do differently. And off we go to the races…..

Sadly what seems to often happen then is the MLCer finds the to do list a bit too difficult, or keeps one foot in ow land, or really wants a fatted calf with no awkward discussions….simmers resentfully for a bit, BDs again and off they go. Bc, as you say, they are still in MLC with all of the not very adult entitlement and BS and avoidance that goes with that. It becomes a sort of ‘horse to water’ thing for the LBS, I think. And of course it makes it much harder to be detached or keep your focus on your wellbeing bc you are invested in an outcome.

I’m not saying it’s impossible, or doomed to fail, but I am saying that it is probably not easy. And that, logically, one can see how it would encourage the old patterns of the relationship to re-emerge when perhaps they are not as appropriate in this new situation. Which is why imho, and reading those who have reconnected and even the few who have reconciled like Acorn, it seems to need the LBS to intentionally not go into their default. Which for most of us is a kind of earnest fixing, I think 

If one takes a step back, the MLCer - whether they think it was a mistake or not now - broke things. A lot of things. Some of them pretty big and important. Neither they nor we can change that, no matter how much we wish we could.

Why therefore would it not make sense that the person who broke it carries the primary responsibility for offering up a specific plan of action to fix it? If only bc, as we all know in normal life, people tend to be more committed to their own action plan than someone’s else’s plan. But of course if someone else jumps in with a plan first - and we know that MLCers even ore MLC tend to be a bit avoidant - how will we ever know what their plan was? And of course, in a resentful head that finds the work of change a bit damned hard lol, it then runs the risk of being the LBS plan really, doesn’t it? Cue strains of the ‘you’re not the boss of me’ and ‘the problem is not what I did, it’s your unforgiving reaction to what I did’ songs

Why not slow your planning roll and simply ask your h what his plan is?
What does he intend to do to try to fix what he broke?
What is he offering? And what does he want from you?
Then wait, see what he says and see what you think about his plan.
Take the time and space you need.

Above all, slow your roll enough to not do the adulting for him….let him figure it out bc that’s how grown ups learn and change, isn’t it? Plus there is a subtle but important power dynamic at play that, if this is not normally your default, sends a clear boundary signal that we are not in the old Kansas anymore. And allows you to judge where your h is starting from as opposed to vice versa. No different really from basic negotiation skills….the person who speaks first shows their hand, the mental field they are playing on. There is a lot of useful information in seeing where someone is starting from.

Don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying that some of your needs/plan are illegitimate or a bad idea. I can see sense to things like a post nup or a different job etc etc. and of course you need to protect yourself. I just wonder if, whether we like it or not, it’s a bit 0-60. Bc your instinct, and stories here, would suggest they come back broken not fixed, a work in slow progress at best bringing all of the MLC residue with them. Plus of course the additional damage created by their actions.

Is it worth considering quietly for yourself a very, very bare minimum….the marital equivalent of training wheels on a bike…..the price of a ticket to try perhaps? Some smaller first step goals rather than the big all is magically fixed ones? And along with that, being as honest with yourself as you can about how you will manage your own understandable but messy emotions and needs in trying to repair a marriage with a husband who has lied, devalued and been unfaithful to you? Or how you will manage potentially a live in MLC rollercoaster sucking up all the emotional attention in the room with all the stress and uncertainty that brings?  Bc sadly that is as real as your need to try to repair things, isn’t it?

The two stories that are popping up in my mind are Finding Joy and Acorn. One had a h who returned and younger children. One I think had a husband who didn’t physically leave with older children. Both had ow or owomen and all the normal MLC drama and blameshifting. You might find it useful to read their threads.

I think what strikes me most about what I remember inntheir stories is that they both seemed to find a way to stay detached to some degree, both seemed to need even more solid boundaries in order to reconnect and both had reached a point where they were a bit emotionally detached from a given outcome….and that is was not an easy or quick process. So, thank God for those who have come before us and been generous enough to share their experiences, right? I’m sure they’d be fine if you PM’d them too, a,though neither has posted for a little while, hopefully bc they are busy getting on with normal life. And hopefully some others will swing by your thread and share their wisdom too.

So, my big take fwiw is to let the dog see the rabbit.
Ask your h what his plan is and see what he says.
Slow your default planning roll. And use that time to think quietly about your bare minimum entry ticket price for a spouse who is most likely still in MLC with all that brings. And how you can continue to build a healthy detachment from his rollercoaster if he brings it home with him.

We are all cheering you on regardless. And we all absolutely understand that you feel you need to try x

[WHY]

He won’t balk.  He’s gonna promise the world then do a 180 when he feels secure again.  I’m with you.  For the kids.  One has to try.  And I think the postnup is a fantastic idea.  You can maybe make his return conditional on signing it.  But once he’s home.  All leverage will disappear.  So I think you’re doing the right thing. 

I’m really sorry you’re going through this.  You should watch RCRs vids on her H and the cake eating.  She has some genius insights on how to survive this. 

[UrsaMajor]

My 2 Europennies for what it is worth -

1) Treasur has it right - MLCH broke it. How does MLCH propose to fix it. As long s YOU are setting out the way forward, he doesn't have to do the work and, if things all go pear-shaped, he can still blame you because "you set the plan and were SO controlling"<insert eyeroll here>.
2) From him

Actions speak louder than words.... CONSISTENT actions, not a one-off.....

Otherwise, you are setting yourself up for a "touch-and-go" aka wash-rinse-spin-repeat

[Treasur]

And a PS….its ok to not know what to do and to say you don’t know out loud.

[Trustandlove]

amazing love, I remember writing a letter like that; as treasur says, it didn't really have much effect on my MLCer, but it did have a good effect on me -- it was my truth.  And I think that counts for a lot.

I, too, completely understand the need to try, I did as well, for a long time.  And I also agree with asking him what his plan for that is. 

"Trying" in my book doesn't mean that it's on you to fix it, I think it means being clear on what is important to you and where your boundaries are.  So IMO writing such a letter helps you clarify your own thoughts. 

I absolutely definitely feel more at peace knowing I did everything in my power, I can look my children in the eye and say that, they know that, and it has strengthened us as a family (my children and me). 

[amazinglove]

Have I told you lately that I love you? meaning this brilliant collective. THANK YOU for all the wisdom. I read them again and again.

Quick q - actually 2 of them.

H is back with his family. He did not contact me at all today and I did not contact him.We spoke ydy. Today I wanted to, and I thought about it, now that he's not with the AP i want to talk to him, be reassured I guess, but thinking I should play a more passive role in the comms right now, correct? He told me he is spending the weekend at his sister's and he will likely call tomo with her and on cam to see kids again. I have a lot of questions for him (including is his coming back as planned early April or before?) but I feel like I need to let him lead on when that goes down. And keep a light touch. We don't need to speak every single day straight away. We have not been doing that for months. Right? I mean, mirroring and not taking charge is likely the way forward.

Secondly, for those of you that dealt with a 'touch and go' which is what this v well may be,  If he was NOT with his OW when he came back did you welcome him back with affection/you know what I'm talking about here etc? I want to try again with him and rebuild but I don't want my heart to get crushed in the process.

If he runs away again, ie says he can't live here with us and needs to go away for a few weeks to see his parents again (and flee responsibility etc) and he is not with the AP (it would be hard to see her now without anyone noticing bc she lives in a diff country and we call with cameras on) do they ever just escape and avoid without cheating on you? I am trying to prepare myself that he will come and then he will try hard, and then start to pull away after a few weeks, and then eventually tell me i can't do this and tell me he has to leave /escape the drudgery of our lives again. And it will hurt like a biyatch. This idea of back and forth is horrendous, but I am keenly aware that his 'crisis' ls pretty much for sure, not over.

[amazinglove]

ps did any of you ever think to yourselves that this was all a nightmare/bad dream and then you're like oh wait, it's real.

and secondly treasur - thanks for this "I think what strikes me most about what I remember inntheir stories is that they both seemed to find a way to stay detached to some degree, both seemed to need even more solid boundaries in order to reconnect and both had reached a point where they were a bit emotionally detached from a given outcome….and that is was not an easy or quick process."

I was more detached but now have hope and that is scaring me tbh. bc it is not welcome.

[KayDee]

Secondly, for those of you that dealt with a 'touch and go' which is what this v well may be,  If he was NOT with his OW when he came back did you welcome him back with affection/you know what I'm talking about here etc? I want to try again with him and rebuild but I don't want my heart to get crushed in the process.

I think, if we are using this term 'touch and go' it implies a kind of physical action. A person comes in close to another, there is a 'touch' - I read a kind of intimacy in this, a suggestion of reconnection. The Go - the action away again. Currently you are dealing with just his words. I know it's hard - because you have a long history of taking your spouses at their word. But It won't apply here. Sorry. My sense of your H is that he is still in the manic flailing around phase. Others, on the forum who have the wisdom drawn from years of observing these patterns will likely contribute, but I wouldn't imagine him in the T & G phase, because he really is just running on pure emotion. JMO. I had a big T & G (not to be confused with a G & T which I've also had a more than one of since BD ) after the one year mark. And boy, the go was a biggy. It literally re-traumatized me. So, for all of us, first and foremost we have to guard our hearts. The repeated pain in the first 14 or so months was engaging with my H like I used to - having the same expectations drawn from over two decades of a trusting relationship. When this gets upended again and again and again, there's a point where you really do have to create strong boundaries and stick to them, while repeating the mantra 'no expectations'.

If he runs away again, ie says he can't live here with us and needs to go away for a few weeks to see his parents again (and flee responsibility etc) and he is not with the AP (it would be hard to see her now without anyone noticing bc she lives in a diff country and we call with cameras on) do they ever just escape and avoid without cheating on you? I am trying to prepare myself that he will come and then he will try hard, and then start to pull away after a few weeks, and then eventually tell me i can't do this and tell me he has to leave /escape the drudgery of our lives again. And it will hurt like a biyatch. This idea of back and forth is horrendous, but I am keenly aware that his 'crisis' ls pretty much for sure, not over.

Reading this, it's obvious you know that he is not ready or able to commit back to your family life. And it's much less about the current OW (other OW's are always available - other avoidance tactics are also available) it's about his compulsion to run. He is currently searching for something he cannot find within himself. So, it's not a platitude, she is a symptom.  When this happened to me, I spent a very long time seeing it through the lens of my own pain and the rupturing of the marriage and I was looking at my H's actions in relation to both these things. But he is looking at things through the lens of depression (a glass darkly). If I can at least understand this, if not the destructive and hurtful behaviours, I can at least save myself constant disappointment and dashed hopes. Sadly, your H is the 'totaled car', he's not drivable at the moment. It's so hard to accept all this, and yes, it does sometimes feel like a nightmare.

[xyzcf]

It really is a nighmare isn't it. trying to second guess what they will do and how we will respond.

Regarding the phone contact, I had insisted he call me everyday as he was in another country, and I lived for those calls...but they were never very satisfactory, nor were his visits because I couldn't say what I wanted to say to him for fear of driving him further away.

I know now, that anything I woukld have said would have the same result...nothing.

Secondly, for those of you that dealt with a 'touch and go' which is what this v well may be,  If he was NOT with his OW when he came back did you welcome him back with affection/you know what I'm talking about here etc?

If you choose to be intimate with him, please protect yourself from any STD's he may have picked up. It's mind boggling to think about this but there are LBSers here who have been infected because heck we just cannot believe that they would have sex with someone else and become infected and then pass it on to us. Reality check..it happens.

I am trying to prepare myself that he will come and then he will try hard, and then start to pull away after a few weeks, and then eventually tell me i can't do this and tell me he has to leave /escape the drudgery of our lives again. And it will hurt like a biyatch. This idea of back and forth is horrendous, but I am keenly aware that his 'crisis' ls pretty much for sure, not over.

Most likely he will come and go but there are some rare cases where they do return and even though still in crisis, they stay at home as they continue through their journey. You are wise to realize this. And it does hurt.....this whole experience hurts...how can it not?

It's a crazy way to live, crazy that somehow we cannot work together to resolve this..but as we say over and over, this is not about us or our marriage. Hard to believe but it's true.

[Treasur]

Raining here AGAIN, so me and the cat are feeling rather jaundiced lol…so today I will be a woman of few words 

Perhaps think reconnection rather than reconciliation….
Liars tend to lie some more before they don’t.
Ow tend to be surprisingly sticky.
Trust your gut more than his words or intentions.
Don’t stand anything important on a rug that someone else can pull out from under you.
STDs…and if sex helps you to be as detached as you want to be, or not. Or if it’s bait.
Don’t be scared about chipping the paintwork on a pretty totaled car.
Resist the temptation to audition again for the role of wife and mother that you said yes to years ago.
Do less to get more

[Reinventing]

Agree with everything that Treasur said.

[Nas]

If he runs away again, ie says he can't live here with us and needs to go away for a few weeks to see his parents again (and flee responsibility etc) and he is not with the AP (it would be hard to see her now without anyone noticing bc she lives in a diff country and we call with cameras on) do they ever just escape and avoid without cheating on you? I am trying to prepare myself that he will come and then he will try hard, and then start to pull away after a few weeks, and then eventually tell me i can't do this and tell me he has to leave /escape the drudgery of our lives again. And it will hurt like a biyatch. This idea of back and forth is horrendous, but I am keenly aware that his 'crisis' ls pretty much for sure, not over.

I will just say this word of caution: never assume that they "can't" do something even if it looks hard-to-impossible from the outside. Affairs such as these don't need the two people to be in the same place for long periods of time. Many an LBS has felt a whole new wave of BD-level shock to find out that the MLCer has been in contact with the AP all along. They seem to acquire CIA level skills when it comes to stealthy secrecy.

I don't say that to dash your hopes.  What I would say, rather than basing any decisions on whether he appears to have severed ties with the AP, base them on the consistency of his words and actions, and on yourself, because our bodies will often try really hard to tell us the things we need to know. His words mean nothing alone.

My advice on sex is combined with your comments on how much it'll hurt if he pulls away again or leaves again. Only you can say how much expectation you might put on it, but the more expectation, the more potential for feeling crushed. So if you can take a very honest look at your own needs and expectations, you can go from there. My humble been there sample of one opinion is it would be emotionally safer if you were at a point where you felt that if he left again, it wouldn't be crushing and wouldn't leave you feeling like you compromised yourself.
Speaking of safety, STDs, as others have said, are a real consideration. I will never forget the moment of having to ask my doctor to test for everything, or the face she made, a silent mix of sympathy and recognition.

[amazinglove]

Hi all -I feel a bit bruised this evening - mainly because I feel completely bamboozled by my H. I suspect that's a fairly common sentiment on here.

When my H left his lover Behind in Barcelona, (sounds like a song) he told me he'd ended it and was not going to see her again. He returned to his family (overseas) and made plans to come back to our family in California. He was attentive, kind, affectionate (on text and on camera calls), checked in every day etc .He said he wanted to come back and rebuild and restore our family. He realised he couldn't live without me or the kids etc etc. And I knew he was still in his MLC and at the same time, I was cautiously optimistic that this might lead to a slow but steady journey towards reconciliation. He arrives back here April 14th and he says he will stay with us until we ALL go on summer vacation back to his country in July. That is a lot of time for him - I realised he's only been here 6 weeks in the past 6 months.

For the past 4 days, I'd noted that he was less responsive, stopped writing 'i love you' after good night, didn't call for a day, then stopped saying good night all together. When I typed, " I love you " he wrote "I love you all." It felt off. So today I asked him on a call - he called my daughter's phone not mine - what was going on? I asked him if he was still totally committed to coming back here and rebuilding. He paused. It felt like a long pause. He said, well my feelings have changed. I have changed. I am not the same man I was when i was there. I was living for you, every decision I made was with you in mind (bear in mind he did not mention our two children 7 and 10 at any stage in this conversation) and now I am going to live for myself. I like my freedom. I am coming back on the 14th but i will return here again when I need to and it will be my decision to do so."

When i asked him directly did you in fact, end it with your AP, his reply 'pretty much yes, I did.' Are you in contact with your AP? "not so much, no."

When i said, well that's not a very reassuring reply he said, well i haven't forgotten it. i am thinking about it now, i haven't forgotten it.
When I asked him what his feelings were for me, he said, "I love you as my wife, 100 percent. I love and I always will." I think this is a new variation on ILYBINILWY! I mean, does he love someone else like a mistress? I think so.

All that to say, my hopes are in tatters. I feared this might be a touch and go - and now it looks like it's not even a 'touch!"
I know you wll say he is cycling, and that, given I am not quite even a year into this - it is to be expected - but it is still so painful to look at the face of the man I loved so well for so long and see those dead, shark eyes back today. It was clear he had disassociated again. I feel like I am back to square one. And he was monstering a little bit too. (ie 'you are stresesd about everything,' etc)
He is staying here April 14th. He can sleep in the kids' room. I can possibly go away for some of it and he will def need to leave before July - i doubt he will be willing to stay that long anyway. He just runs and runs.
You know, when he was talking to me, he was sitting at his kitchen table from his childhood home and his mom was cooking dinner for him, behind him (she doesnt speak English so she couldn't understand the convo) and he said "i feel comfortable here. I like my freedom." and I thougth, well no wonder, you pathetic, smarmy man-child. Meanwhile I am surrounded by the beautiful chaos, noise, tears and laughter of this family we created together, that one that he apparently finds so simple to relinquish.
I don't want to say I'm crushed, but today was a dark day for me. Is it bad that I want to extricate myself from this 'partnership' as soon as possible? I know that divorce won't change how hard this is in many ways, but I think this limbo state of being tied to him, expectations that he would act like a loving and faithful husband and near constant disappointment must be worse than that brutal clarity.

My heart is so hurt. It was the hope that hurt.

[Treasur]

I’m so sorry and we know that it hurts. Hope can be a double-edged sword sometimes. You doubtless know from reading other stories here that this is a common situation for LBS to find themselves in, particularly in the first couple of years. You did nothing wrong. He’s just in pretty much the same place he was before. Nothing really has changed except you expected something better. But that can feel rather crushing and disheartening or as if you made some kind of mistake. You didn’t. Nothing substantial has changed. And it is as it is even if that sucks like a big sucky Dr McSuckface of Suckland  It’s a humbling thing to realise that, no matter how smart and grown up we are, sometimes we humans learn much the same way toddlers do lol…by falling over, by eating something yucky, by getting our fingers caught in the door. 

What I find myself seeing in what you wrote - and wondering about - is why you are allowing him to define when he comes and goes to your home and in a way that evidently suits him? You don’t control his travel plans, of course, but you do have some control over the door to your own home. And I’m assuming you are no longer the airport taxi service either. You have options, particularly tbh as you are the main income earner and are not dependent on him to keep a roof over your family’s heads.

Why would it not be ok to tell him to make arrangements to stay elsewhere for his visit and just come over to pick up the kids for his visitation time with them? Bc right now that’s a lot of cake he’s eating - and doubtless his mother is feeding him lol - and it sounds as if that is giving him quite a lot of power and control over your life and your home.

I’m not suggesting he would like it much if you say No…or indeed that it might not come with some practical disadvantages….but I am saying that you have other choices beyond just fitting around what he wants and waiting for his next departure…..whether to Basic in Barcelona or the Moscow Mule or Louche in London or elsewhere  After all, you already have data from his track record of past ‘plans’ and promises to the kids that he comes and goes seemingly as he pleases, and that having him back in the home is not a easy delightful walk in the park. And of course if you want to use the time he is there to look after the kids for your own travel plans, you could always arrange for him to take them to his airbandb while you are away or move in for a few days temporarily while you are away (assuming you are confident that he would move out again lol) it does seem to me to be a rather basic conclusion that if you leave your family to run off in search of a magic happy elsewhere, you are not entitled to free bed and board in the family home just bc it suits you  If he honestly wants to see his kids or is concerned about them, even if he honestly wants to do some basic repair with you beyond word salad, he can figure it out and if you ever want a healthy adult husband, you should let him do just that imho. Time to let him clean up his own mess in his own aisle perhaps?

Is there some bit of your head perhaps…or a picture you have painted for your kids…that he has not actually left but is on a kind of well earned temporary vacation from family life, a hall pass from his adult responsibilities or urgently needed elsewhere bc of family reasons beyond his wishes? Bc that’s not the truth of things really or how healthy adult life works, is it?

Is there a bit of avoidance going on for you of calling a quacking duck a duck bc perhaps you really don’t want to see a duck or call it a duck to your kids? Bc the duck is awful to have to see and naming things out loud can make them more real? And thats normal and understandable if so, but it does rather leave you and the kids in a kind of metaphorical waiting room or as a part-time gig job that fits around other things…it gives him quite a lot of power and centrality doesn’t it?…..very me me….is it almost inadvertently a kind of self-gaslighting that the duck is not really a duck whilst it toddles around preening its’ feathers and quacking very loudly? Sometimes we need to call a duck a duck to develop a decent duck management strategy imho. Or plan on eating duck an l’orange for Easter 

Is that acceptable to you for the next few months of you and your kids’ precious life? What do you think your kids think is going on with this pop up and down father who lives in another country? How do they make sense of it or feel about it? Bc it is evidently acceptable enough to him to do it bc he’s done it before and is planning on doing it again…so it’s a fair operating assumption from your pov. Is there a line in the sand on this for you or are you ok doing this until your youngest is 18 say? Or until/unless you are legally divorced? Or until/unless you have another man/spouse? Or live in a different house or a different place?

I don’t know where that line sits for you or what you get from going along with his current plans. And I’m not telling you where it ‘should’ be or judging you for the reality of wherever it is right now.  But if it isn’t acceptable to you, or the price is too high for the return on investment right now, you don’t have to and it’s ok to say No, Not Now or Not Like This. You have options and you have the legitimate and reasonable right to choose options at the moment that serve you best and prioritise you and your kids. And to change your mind. And to say I don’t know or I’ll need to think about it before saying Yes or No. That’s all.

And if he throws a tantrum? Oh well, what’s he going to do….say you’re horrible, leave you, run off to another country or to his mummy’s kitchen table and have an affair? 

[amazinglove]

I've just read my last post - and altho I felt it was time for an update, I'm still pretty much there in terms of his behavior.

Where I have moved tho, is in my own mind.

I took kids to Bentonville, Arkansas (not sure the state abbreviation for Arkansas is it ARK?I think it's AR,  I don't feel like looking it up and would rather type all of these words). Anyway, highly recommend. Charming and even kind of small town USA bouji if that is possible. They have all these cute restaurants, coffee shops, a stylish hotel, ice cream truck and a fabulous outdoor museum called Crystal Bridges (American art with an AMAZING animal exhibition right now) and outdoor sculptures. I loved it. We had a lot of outdoor fun - playgrounds, fishing, lawnmower tractor riding, etc. it was the first time I've flown alone with kids and taken them on a family vaca without my H. And we had a blast. I found it super hard going at points bc my 7 year old is rambunctious and never stops and my friend has no kids and a beautiful new home - but she was a great sport ab it all and he didn't actually break anything in the end. She is really the best and most supportive friend a person could ask for. I did get tired of being the one parent in charge all the time, but tbh i loved being with them. It was insightful for me to experience that and know that I can do this and make it great.

Secondly, H was attentive while we there, texting or calling every day but since back has been cold again, retreating and I guess in another cycle. What changed for me was this: I have started to see, through small,l I guess you could call them 'micro-aggressions" (altho i dislike the term) clear, unavoidable evidence that he is not willing to do the work that will be necessary to try and fix 'us'. Moreover I don't believe he is capable of it, even if he had the desire to. He is here in just 6 days and I am going to talk to him about next steps for us. This limbo is so hard.

I know lots of you will tell me to slow down and pause before taking action, but I have always been and will always be kind of a mover.  I want off this train and I want no promises left between us. I am going to seek legal advice ab overseas marriages and suggest to him that we divorce in Turkey when I come and bring kids this summer. I want it over with. I know divorce won't heal any of my pain, but I don't want to be constantly let down and asked to leave space in my heart open for him in case he 'comes around'. I need to keep my sanity and health - and the way things are now, it's just not possible if I keep going as I've been. Once we have this chat I suspect he won't stick around and will flee again and that is v much for the best I think. His selfishness is absolutely staggering to me. I find it hard to believe honestly.

I do not know what's next but I am trying to think about the things/people I DO still have hope in, and also allow myself to feel the full force of pulling away. Today there was such awkwardness and formality in his text ab the kids and I normally would have called him and chatted and eased it, but I thought you know what? I can't always fix things, I need to get used to this wall between us, I need to make friends with it, because for a long while now, we both need it to be there as we detach and disentangle our lives.

I have been reading the shut out wife btw and I really do like her (v practical) advice.

all thoughts welcome as ever.

[MadLuv]

I think you have to just make sure you are in a  good enough place to make the decision with no regrets. Divorce and the ending of a marriage and family is just has hard if not harder than the throws of MLC.  Now, with that said, I divorced quickly, but only due to the settlement he was agreeing on and I knew than that He wasn’t thinking clearly and some one had to protect what we could and I was right. Just make sure you have already spoke with an attorney. That you have figured out what you need to get by, but most important that you know you can’t stay int he place you are now and this is the step you need to make. Ask yourself the difficult questions on why you want to force the divorce now. If there is any part that is hoping he will beg you against it then don’t gamble on that. He may, but only to quickly agree the next time or he may jump on it.  Just make sure  you have clearly thought it through.

[xyzcf]

I have started to see, through small,l I guess you could call them 'micro-aggressions" (altho i dislike the term) clear, unavoidable evidence that he is not willing to do the work that will be necessary to try and fix 'us'. Moreover I don't believe he is capable of it, even if he had the desire to

If he is in MLC, then it's not about you, not about your marriage or kids and thus there is no "fixing "us". He is not capable, maybe for a very long time, maybe not ever.

Having said that, you need to do what you must do. His inability to be a husband, the husband you want isn't going to happen right now. Not until his own crisis is well into being resolved which might or might not ever happen.

[Ready2Transform]

FWIW, as painful as divorce was, I felt like it at least put an endpoint to where he could further damage the relationship we'd had before all of this (no matter what the outcome was to be). Taking your power back and making decisions that accept the situation and create as much stability for you and your kids as possible is commendable.

[Treasur]

Taking legal advice should be your first step bc with divorce or legal separation the devil can lie in the detail. And I would be asking about the pros and cons from your PoV about doing so in your own country vs doing so in another country, particularly if you do not speak the language fluently or live there. There can be some significant differences in the law between one country and another.

I would make no commitments at all about visiting his country with the kids this summer as you ‘normally’ do until you have taken legal advice. Please don’t feel bad about changes that have to be made, or that his parents will be upset about not seeing the kids in the same way…your h created this change in all of your circumstances and it isn’t your job to run behind him with a broom tidying up all of the pretty predictable consequences for everyone else, is it? Or to make him care about the damage to anyone else. You can only be responsible for looking after your own life and your kids’ well-being the best you can and let everyone else, including him, deal with their own bit of the fallout the best they can. I am not saying your kids should not see their grandparents; I am saying that, through no fault of yours or theirs, the situation is in flux and this year may not play out in the same shape as previous years.

But you need legal advice pronto to plot a course that does not increase the financial risk further or place primary custody of your children at risk. I suspect that you will find that your home country is more favourable to your interests than your h’s country.

[Nas]

I have started to see, through small,l I guess you could call them 'micro-aggressions" (altho i dislike the term) clear, unavoidable evidence that he is not willing to do the work that will be necessary to try and fix 'us'. Moreover I don't believe he is capable of it, even if he had the desire to.

I remember being in this place. For me, the second half of your sentence was the most important in my mind, the realization that even if he wanted to, he wasn’t capable of the type of change I would have needed to get me to a place where I felt valued, safe, secure. All the things I tried so hard to make sure he felt for so long but I had never felt. There was a very distinct moment where I realized (or more accurately, finally admitted to myself) that, with him, I never would. There would be no miraculous waking up, no epiphany, no road to Damascus type turnaround. So I packed myself up and moved away (more on that detail later…) Except it wasn’t as clean and straightforward as I just stated it. It was incredibly painful and messy and scary. And boy did I pay for the sin of choosing myself. If he could have stolen my beating heart from my chest, I think he would have, but he settled for literally everything else. But I was making it work, rebuilding slowly on my own. I had a little faith in myself, and I had so much hope. And with everything I did that showed me a little bit of what life could be, I had more faith in myself and more hope.

It sounds like this trip gave you a little taste of what it would be like to do it on your own, and it was kind of an empowering moment for you. I’m glad you’re going to take legal advice. I don’t know anything about the legalities of divorcing overseas as opposed to here but I hope you will be able to do whatever is most beneficial for you. Because as I said, I moved away. After he moved away. And the different jurisdictions and residency requirements definitely played a role in holding things up, confusing things, and giving him the opportunity to do things I never even thought of, let alone being proactive to prevent them from happening.

So, like Treasur, I wondered if there were benefits to divorcing in your home state as opposed to initiating it in a country where you don’t live but he is a citizen and has family. When it comes to protecting finances and custody issues, I would lean towards making it as simple for yourself as possible, and having the process take place where you already live *seems* like the simplest thing. So again, I hope you can get good legal advice about what is the best for you and the kids. if that turns out to be extremely inconvenient for him, well, too bad for him…

[Helpnewc]

For what it is worth, I agree with what is said by the others.

I have seen too often trouble when things blow up outside your country of residence. I recall acting in a case where a husband took the passports of the children and it took years for the wife to get them back to her country given the laws in the country they were in.

I would just think very carefully about the trip to Turkey. I do not know about the laws there but I would suspect things might be difficult for you if you are a non citizen and something happens.

And your husband is in the throes of the crisis. He is not who he was at the moment and I would urged caution about leaving your home jurisdiction with your kids.

[amazinglove]

Hi all - just wanted to check in with this impressive and infinitely wise group.

H is here, and has been for around 9 days or so. We are co-parenting as friends and it's going ok. We are polite, cordial and kind to each other, and in the middle of these warm interactions are having conversations around logistics of visitation and finances when we split. He is still with his AP. He told me this the day after he got here. They are still in contact and he has not given her up. I told him, ok, then we cannot even try to rebuild anything and we have to pull the plug on this because I am done with forever-limbo. (he would happily go on like this for quite some time to come - keeping me here on deep freeze handling all while he explores his own selfish plans)

He and I are not sleeping together - he is in our son's room - and our plan is to make it a few more weeks together until we all go together to Antalya as a family and then me and the kids come back here. ((For those worried about him abducting them, he does not want kids educated over there and wants them to stay in their school over here - also no way does he want the responsibility and work of them)) he is planning to live in Turkey 6 months a year near his sisters and parents and I reckon the other 6 he will spend a fair amt of that with his AP in Barcelona or Moscow and some of it with his children. I will bring them over there in summers to have time with him and altho this year I am planning to stay a few weeks as we 'transition',  in future I will not stay. He literally wants to just do his 12 hours of client zooms a week and wait until he can start collecting his pension and retire in Turkey in 10 years. He is 44 years old!! As of now, he  plans to never work more than that again.

He is delusional about thinking that he never has to work again and he will be happy with this, and also that we will stay a loving family and also at the same time break up. He doesn't want to move his things out of this home or for me to move my things out of our bedroom over there. He wants half this house (which is legally his) but wants to put it into the next home that I live in with the kids and wants his name on it too - with the provision that everything we own goes to our kids. He does not want to divide anything. (our accounts are already all separate and he is not asking for any of it - including the two he funded that I control). I wlll seek legal advice here in CA and also in Turkey when there. I wil get my ducks in a row before we have these,(certain to be unpleasant given his delusions) conversations. This detente we're enjoying is temporary because my patience is finite and it's exhausted.  He is like a cake eater extraordinaire.

I found a new therapist - this was my 4th or 5th I've tried - and I liked her a lot. She said overcoming betrayal and this kind of infidelity takes transparency, consistency and time - and there is no way to circumvent that process. (let alone actually giving the AP up!) My H is unwilling to do any of them - so I will never trust him again. From his side, one thing that came thru in a conversation we had, is that he resents me deeply for 'making him' move here and give up his dream job in London. He will never get over it and blames me for controlling his life too much. He really does take no accountability for decisions that he was part of and agreed to. It's all my influencing and controlling him.

As for now, he said to me, "i am a cheater, I am a liar and for the first time in my life, I am selfish.'

for the 'first time'?? who is never selfish? no one.  Altho a good man, he was normally selfish as the rest of us are.

someone on here once said that resentment is what pushes them off the ledge when it comes to betrayal and I would have to agree. It certainly seems to be the case for me. He is punishing me for his life not working out how he wanted it to and for not making everything ok for him professionally with the move.

Right now tho, perhaps refreshingly, my focus really is no longer on what he is thinking! Hip Hip Horraay! I have released myself from this prison of constantly trying to understand the inner workings of a mind that is no longer sane or reasonable. I am focused now on how to mitigate his damage - the kids are so happy he's here. They are relaxing into each other and it's been great to see that happen. I am able to keep him at arm's length and be cordial and kind to him. He works around the garden and house during the day while I do my own work (from home), picks up kids from school, cooks dinner and does wash etc. He is pitching in and helping and keeps busy. It feels like we are a family. And yet, we are not in a 'real' marriage. I told him our marriage is a lie right now, and I will not live a lie. This is temporary and we are moving towards divorce.

I suspect I will have to keep reminding him of this.

At least as of right now, things feel calm and settled. I know it won't last, but I am centering myself, catching my breath, and hopefully, hopefully laying some ground work for a friendship as co-parents.

[UrsaMajor]

A GIF is worth 1000 words.....



Just replace "Lunatic" with "Limerent"

[Treasur]

All of us reading can hear the difference in your mindset and wellbeing, and we also know how much effort it takes to get to that first patch of flat solid ground. Literally amazing, love 

We also know that the path from here to next is a winding one. Perspectives change, priorities change, choices change. His perhaps, but more importantly yours.

So everything I’m about to say is in that context. And repeating my previous words about giving yourself time to tune in to your best path regardless of his.

Your post was a long list of his wants, wasn’t it? Which, put simply and much as you said, seem to be that he wants x and y and z while essentially keeping his family, and his role in it, in a box to be taken out periodically when he wants to play with it. I would take what he says at face value. This is what he currently wants and what his plan is to get. Of course, just bc he wants it does not mean he will get it, or indeed that you are obliged to provide it, but this is what he wants. It may or may not work out well for him, but this is what he wants. And apparently feels entitled to have. I would bet cash I don’t have that it simply never occurred to him to ask seriously what you want given the circumstances….am I right? I am not saying this to rant and rave about his rather disappointing character as an adult man, husband and parent…although we can if you want lol. I am saying it to encourage you to be clear-eyed about it, about essentially his ‘proposal’. And how much of it is about his wants and how little of it is about yours or your childrens’ wants or needs.

- He does not want kids educated over there and wants them to stay in their school over here
- he is planning to live in Turkey 6 months a year near his sisters and parents and I reckon the other 6 he will spend a fair amt of that with his AP in Barcelona or Moscow and some of it with his children.
- He literally wants to just do his 12 hours of client zooms a week and wait until he can start collecting his pension and retire in Turkey in 10 years….As of now, he  plans to never work more than that again.
- and also that we will stay a loving family and also at the same time break up.
- He doesn't want to move his things out of this home or for me to move my things out of our bedroom over there.
- He wants half this house (which is legally his) but wants to put it into the next home that I live in with the kids and wants his name on it too - with the provision that everything we own goes to our kids.
- He does not want to divide anything.

As for now, he said to me, "i am a cheater, I am a liar and for the first time in my life, I am selfish.'

There can be great power sometimes in reaching a point where one can calmly accept that what looks like a duck is, in fact, a duck. But also that one is not obliged to invite the duck to sit on your future sofa. Or build a future duck house to their design for seasonal migrations. 

While you carry on with your current plans over the next few weeks, I’d encourage you to take some time to reflect on what some of the terminology means to you in practice, short-term and longer term. And how that might lead you towards what you want regardless of what your h wants bc you now have the information about how he currently sees these things. But that may not be how you see them, and it’s ok if it isn’t. Bc that’s how real life works between adults, isn’t it?

Break up. Separation. Divorce. Co-parenting. Family. House. Home. Limbo. Friends. Cordial. Kind. Helping. Pitching in.

On a very simple level, I can see some significant disadvantages for you in a future life where a ‘virtual husband’ metaphorically - or really - still keeps his boxer shorts in your drawers and his name on the deeds. Or how one practically coparents with an absent figure who lives in another country. But my opinion doesn’t matter….giving yourself the time to reach yours does.

Linking back to my point about things changing though, I would also encourage you to see this as a kind of three body problem; the essence of that is the effect of a third (or more) unknown forces at play on events. Ow’s agenda, how his work/life plans play out financially, your unknown future opportunities and choices….just a few that spring out to me. And how that makes predicting a bit unpredictable. And perhaps why unhooking what you can from those events is worth reflecting on as an act of self protection. The risk I suppose is that, based on your h’s current wants, you could literally be gambling the roof over your head on events beyond your control and when you already have experienced your wants being seemingly irrelevant to others. Jmo, but I’d need to have a bloody big overpowering benefit to outweigh that risk having survived it once. jmo though 

I have no doubt that you will be just fine once the detritus of this major life event shakes out. That might take a little time yet, but it is clear to see from reading here bc of the kind of human you are. In fact, I have a sneaking suspicion that you may even find life a bit easier bc you may come to decide that your h was/is enough of a man child that used quite a lot of your energy that can be joyfully invested elsewhere. But this bit is exhausting, that’s true, and you need a little bit of time to figure out what YOU want in the circumstances that have shown up in your life. Quite possible that your h won’t much like some of your conclusions, but that doesn’t really matter now….whats he going to do, leave you?

From the cheap seats over here, it looks as if your h’s current life plans are based on three sets of people doing what he needs to get what he wants the way he wants it…his own family as an unquestioning base, ow financing the fun, and you and the kids leaving a pop up chair at your table when he wants a daddy/family fix. Like a three-legged stool, things are likely to get tricky if even one leg of the stool stops playing their part. As my much-loved uncle said about my own xh as things got really bonkers,  ‘I’m not sure he’s really thought this through, has he?’ 

So, take your time. Gather the information you need. Don’t let the pressure of needing answers - or him wanting you to agree to particular things - force you into hunting them down…..let your own picture of what your own ‘what next’ needs to look like show up. Bc you have good instincts, and it will show up if you let yourself listen to it.

[Zion]

AL,

You sound good!  I really hope you Spring Break trip with the kiddos was refreshing and grounding.

someone on here once said that resentment is what pushes them off the ledge when it comes to betrayal and I would have to agree. It certainly seems to be the case for me. He is punishing me for his life not working out how he wanted it to and for not making everything ok for him professionally with the move.

I don't think you should take responsibility here.  Limerents are resentment building machines.  He is trying to justify himself.  It is his fault he didn't express this desire or dig his heals into to staying in London.  You are not a mind-reader.  He deferred to you and now he defers to AP.   He needs someone else to be whole... not your making. Amazing Love is a full developed and capable adult and I don't think you have time or energy to build scaffolding around him.  You already have children.

I have full confidence that you are strong enough to protect your children and your interests. 

[amazinglove]

Someone I respect wrote me this week about what I am doing and the way I was handling things with my H like ths: after a relationship has been broken, rather than tearing it apart, right now, I am 'unraveling' it. I liked that analogy. That's what it feels like. Truthfully, I am definitely more of a 'bandaid ripper offer' for myself and always have been, but for my kids' sake, unraveling feels clearly to me to be the best way forward. They are still so very little. It makes me sad that they are losing their 'family' in this way but I cannot fix it.

They are re-bonding with their dad - a guy they've seen only 6 weeks in the past 8 months. They are relaxing into him again, and he them. It's great to see their connection re-forming. There is much laughter and joy between them, and I never resent it, I am glad for it - even tho the one paying the price for all this bonhomie right now, is in fact, me.

He is still with his AP and escapes with phone hidden to the toilet to What'sapp her, or even near me on an adjacent sofa today. He didn't announce it was her or anything, but it was obvious. When I asked him later, 'how do you do that? sit me with me and your daughter watching a tv show and message her?" he replied with a kind of smirk'y smile, 'easily! You asked me not to call her at home and I have not'.  What a total creep he is. 

Treasur v smartly (as usual) encouraged me to think less ab what he wants and what about I want - or my kids need in this case- which will always, always supercede my own. I would say that I need peace in this home and I want my kids to feel connected to their dad. To that end, we are going to eek out another few weeks here and leave here as a family for Antalya  on June 1.  I will stay over there with them all for a few weeks (my sister is joining and for 2 weeks we will all be in a hotel which will allow for lots of individual movement, activities and space). He and I will each be with a kid in separate rooms of an adjoining suite. Then kids can either decide to come back with me in early July or stay with their dad for a few more weeks until early August. At the moment, that could go either way, but H and I are agreed that we want them to look forward to these vacations away with their dad and their Turkish family and if they feel trapped out there, miserable, they won't want to go next year. So we are agreed to see how it goes and make the call when I decide to go.

I am going to move my stuff out of that place and also I am going to escape for a few days to go see my own friends in London. It will be great for me to get away for a few days and we can see how the kids do on their own with him as a 'trial' run for when I leave in early July. They will be safe physically sure, but emotionally he is incapable of caring for them, and altho his mom and sisters will fill in, it remains to be seen if it will go well. He is still incredibly selfish and in his own bubble and his moods are still mercurial. He also sleeps a lot and seems tired a lot.

When he texts with her he is like a diff person. Like all of a sudden a burst of energy, like drunk and jazzed up and buzzing - it's literally like a drug. With some objectivity, it's so strange to observe this. I don't as I once did, feel hugely jolted or devastated by it, but it's more like puzzled and perplexed, and I guess deeply disappointed in who this person (I no longer recognize) is. The power of this limerence, this false reality - the price of which is unimaginable - and paid so readily - will never be something I understand.

You will all be glad to know that I am going into  my LA office next week to ensure privacy and contacting lawyers. I will take advice and my plan is, after I sacrifice my summer vacation this year - to help my kids get used to summers there without mommy- I will move ahead in the autumn to make things more official. I will attempt to speak to him more about the details of this, but not today and not when I still have 8 more weeks of togetherness looming.  The right moment will present itself if there is such a thing, and if it does not, i will do this on the phone once me and my kids are all safely back here and all together.

Today we went to church, all of us. And the sermon was all about broken relationships. Nice timing right? He said that those who go from one broken relationship to another bring chaos and confusion into everything they do -and the more they break and move on from, the more chaos and confusion they bring with them into the next one. He also said that the quality of your relationships defines the quality of your life. And he said that if you messed up you need to own it, confess to them and ask for forgiveness - and if you need to forgive someone (as God has forgiven us) then do so, but forgiveness, and letting go of bitterness, and giving them over to God for his justice not ours,  is not the same as forgetting, or excusing or trusting that person again. It was empowering for me to hear all of this - altho kind of painful sitting next to him listening to it. It was a little bit on the nose. H was clearly uncomfortable by the message (you could see it in his body language) but also really compelled and hanging on every word, and teary. Afterwards my H said it was like it was written "just for us". And i said, yes God has been very clearly directly and not so subtly making known to me that He knows and He cares. I said, I have my own work to do. (meaning towards forgiveness) which I will and continue to do.

The last part of the message was about hope. Hope for a better future, a better relationship, reconciliation in some way - or maybe not - but hope for healing and a brighter tomorrow. I said in an earlier post on here that hope was my enemy and it was not welcome. But that was when I was hoping for my H to have some kind of awakening , to shake off this sinful, shameful, self-centered being that he carries around right now. That is no longer what fills my heart with hope. In fact, today, hearing about hope was the best part of all that he said.

Because, dear folks, I am starting to see some light at the end of this tunnel. It's just cracks of it to be fair, and I still see a lot of s*** I still have to wade through to get there, but there is light, it's clear and bright, and it's for me, just over the horizon. 

[amazinglove]

One ps  - after writing this I asked him not to text his gf anymore while sitting next to me as I find it emotionally abusive (knowing how I’m triggered by that) and disrespectful. He freaked out, said for years he had put my happiness first, at the expense of his own, I had killed his happiness in fact. I said calmly, let’s evaluate that statement again in 3 years shall we? Without me in your life we can reflect on how much happier you are then and if you’re right, away from me, great happiness is sure to follow! He then stormed around and said I should leave next week; I am not comfortable here. And I looked up from the tv and said bc I asked you not to text your gf?” I said put yourself in my shoes. If this was reversed. And he said if it was reversed this would not be happening at all. (Ie he would not be sharing a home with me or talking to me) and I said, well ab leaving do what you have to do. And then I ignored him. I did not go upstairs to talk or follow him out of the room I went back to my fixer to fabulous episode.
He came back down later and was nicer, invited me to finish the movie we started ydy which I wanted to finish and said yes to and he peeled a pear and offered it to me.
I have no regrets ab what I said even if he does leave early. I am doing my best for my kids to keep the peace but when someone is blatantly disrespectful to me in my own home, I cannot stay quiet.
I still have hope. 

[Treasur]

And he said if it was reversed this would not be happening at all. (Ie he would not be sharing a home with me or talking to me)

Funny how sometimes, although they lie so much, the truth can accidentally seep out in small ways.
I think what you (and we) see as grace and strength for your kids, he sees as a kind of weakness. Perhaps a point of leverage even or a way to exercise some power over you. Funny how he sounds as if threatening to leave  - again- is still a threat you should care about? (Or do you? Idk) but he clearly thinks that he is Bertie Big Pants and that you give a damn.

And of course, he isn’t in the mindset of putting his kids first….it is literally beyond his comprehension. And his reaction was very MLC teenager, very textbook 

You were quite right and reasonable to say ‘please don’t do this’.
But here’s the lesson imho hidden in the margin.
You can’t control what he does, only how you respond when he does. And I think you are still sort of asking which suggests to me that you have some expectations of him that are unlikely to hold water. We get that; there’s something rather horrible about having to think so poorly of someone in this situation, about adjusting one’s eye so much. It often means having to swallow realities we really really don’t want to swallow….but are forced to when we look at the pattern of feet over mouth.
But again jmo, I think we are already on the losing side of the fence when we find ourselves explaining how and why to be a decent human being to another adult. They either want to or they don’t, they get it or they don’t. And their first reaction - and his - tells you if they do. Anymore beyond that is a waste of breath and energy.

So, let me play devils advocate for a moment…..

It reads as if a lot of your current behaviour - him staying in the house, the big Antalya plan - is based on your desire for your kids to have a connection with their father.
How much do you honestly control that?
How much connection do you want them to feel if their reality is going to be a father who shows up for a few weeks every 8 months and then goes again?
What if your job was not to facilitate the connection he maintains with them, but just not to get in the way of it if he does?
And how much age appropriate truth do your kids know about what’s happening and what is going to happen next? Are they being inadvertently gaslit into believing something different bc you are trying to protect them from the truth? And he is trying to look like good Daddy? And you as evil Mommy who has eaten his happiness, of course? (And by default, the unspoken message that they were not enough to make him happy either and that they have to do the kid version of a happy pick me dance for him to not go again. Bc kids are simple creatures when it comes to making 2+2 = 5)

Not questions you need to answer here but, as all parents here know all too well, questions worth reflection perhaps.

I am glad you are seeing a lawyer. I hope you talk to them about your Antalya plans. A month + is a long time imho. I have some concerns about your plans although you may feel it is too late to change them. I am glad your sister is joining you for some of it.

The essence of unravelling imho is slowly bridging the gap between hopes and reality. For all of you.

I would keep their passports in my handbag at all times. Including when/if I visit London.

I would make a plan now that they return with you in July rather than stay there with him. I would inform everyone of that. Put certainty into the mix of an uncertain situation rather than leaving it dependent on the reactions of small children (and an adult teenager). Neither may like it but sometimes that’s what being the standing adult in the room means, doesn’t it? That you’re the one with a plan lol.

I would tell the kids that things are in transition for a while bc daddy has decided that he no longer wants to live with mommy,  that you will all be ok but some things will work a bit differently in future. That there will be future times in Turkey but there are some things to work out first. I would tell his family the same.

And I would make this the very last time that he stays in your home in order to spend time with his children. (Ironically the universe has given you an opportunity to use this latest exchange as a clear reason to say so, and inform him that this is how it will be from here on in so he can have time to figure out for himself how that will work.)

Bc that is the reality of what happens when one person decides to leave their marriage for new pastures in another country. And the only sane stable consistent show up parent is going to be you so where you go, the kids go.
Bc this is, sadly, reality. A new normal that is not the old normal. And there’s a time of transition that comes with that in life, isn’t there? Not such a nice or easy time until you get to the other side of it. And, perhaps, a little bit of your heart is still in denial about the kind of father that your kids are going to have in practice in this new normal. Him too, maybe. Perhaps it’s just too early to know yet how that will unfurl. But imho it will be a different kind of connection bc ‘Dad for a few weeks’ is not the same as ‘everyday Dad’ who knows who your friends are and takes you to school. It just can’t be. And sadly you can’t protect your little ones from that reality or what they do with it.

I’m so sorry. Every parent here will get how you feel and why you are doing what you are doing, even better than I can. And in my imagination, it must be the most awful thing in an awful situation. (And I would like to virtually punch your husband in the face, just a little bit, bc it’s a $h!tety thing to do to little people and for what. Grrr. Is that ok lol? Or just a big custard pie in his face lol? But still, it is as it is and you can’t control that. Double grrr though.)

[UrsaMajor]

One ps  - after writing this I asked him not to text his gf anymore while sitting next to me as I find it emotionally abusive (knowing how I’m triggered by that) and disrespectful. He freaked out, said for years he had put my happiness first, at the expense of his own, I had killed his happiness in fact. I said calmly, let’s evaluate that statement again in 3 years shall we? Without me in your life we can reflect on how much happier you are then and if you’re right, away from me, great happiness is sure to follow! He then stormed around and said I should leave next week; I am not comfortable here. And I looked up from the tv and said bc I asked you not to text your gf?” I said put yourself in my shoes. If this was reversed. And he said if it was reversed this would not be happening at all. (Ie he would not be sharing a home with me or talking to me) and I said, well ab leaving do what you have to do.

 Oh look... He is having a temper tantrum.... Isn't that cute... 


"You want to leave? Don't let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya' on your way out.... "

[amazinglove]

I think as the 'LBS' or non-crisis spouse we suffer a lot of injustice, manipulation, gaslighting, deception and cruelty - to varying degrees. And for the most part I've done a really good job of handling it, if I do say so myself. But today was not my finest hour.

I was downstairs watching the Chelsea match and my H was outside vacuuming my car when his phone rang and his sister - younger sister- the silly, flighty one who is obsessed with shopping and her IG (despite being 38 years old)  called. I yelled out to him, your phone rang and he came back inside and called her. The first thing he said to her was "I'm with (my name)' and the conversation got really stilted. I then stood up and said hi and she looked absolutely stricken to see me - the way a child looks who has been caught with a hand in the cookie jar. She could barely speak to me and he took the phone to the garage and hung up ab 30 seconds later. I knew this bc he started up the vacuum again. So, what one could reasonably assume is that they did not speak, because I was at home. She is not someone he would call to confide in (the way I do my sister) so would have been something connected to his AP. He did not deny this later btw. I have no idea if they were together, or she was calling to discuss an upcoming trip to her or anything else, but it was connected to her. 

After some thought, I asked my husband, "your sister was so weird with me--where does she stand on all of this - is she my friend?" He knew what I was referencing bc his older sister has been supportive of our family. And he said, 'she's neutral' about you and the OW. NEUTRAL. because he said, she also cares for MY happiness.

I know, I know, don't expect anything from their families. But stupidly I guess, I felt hugely betrayed. Why? Because for years this sister had been estranged from the family (she ran off with a guy they didn't like and humiliated her family ab as much as you can imagine - invited all their relatives to her giant wedding apart from her immediate family who didn't know about it and was blindsided, put it all on FB etc etc) and I had lobbied on her behalf, to my husband for years. Even when she divorced a  year later they wouldn't talk to her, I kept saying, she's your sister! Once they reconciled, this SIL was in a car accident where she hit and killed a woman, a mother with 4 kids, who was illegally running across a freeway and my SIL was passing behind a truck and didn't see her. There were cameras and my SIL was found not at fault, but she had to pay a large amt in a civil case brought by the woman's family. Again, I encouraged my H to send her the money to help. I paid for her trip to the USA last summer etc etc etc.

The thing is, this new woman, she is v rich and she I guess can do more for her than I can. And that's what she sees now. It did not escape my attention that as soon as my H started going to Barcelona to stay in his AP's penthouse, this sister went out and got a visa for Europe.

And with my H, I can at least write this off to a MLC and that he's lost his mind and that he's crazy, but with her, with her it's a CALCULATED decision. Not based on emotion, or a depression - it's a calculated and cold choice to throw me, her 'sister' all these years, under the bus for someone more useful.

Anyway, here's the bad part. I fired off a whats' app to her and in a nutshell said that altho he told me she is neutral now, I had never been neutral to her, I had lobbied for her, and that altho her brother and I will end, and not because of her, but that in situations like these you see who your true friends are, and she is not mine. She is on the side of who can benefit her most. And I asked her, as much as possible when I'm over there with kids, to avoid me, as I don't want to pretend that we are still sisters."  I did not curse or anything, but still it was pretty strong and I should not have sent it. The thing is rationally, I was always going to lose my relationship with all of them anyway. And whether or not she accepts this new AP now, eventually they ALL WILL if they stay together, because he's their brother and son and they won't lose him.

It's not just losing my husband, my time is up in this family - all this despite the fact that I still have his name and we are still married. When we were talking about this btw, my H said to me, 'Where is all this coming from? you are never going to stop bringing this up! You will be triggered constantly, and even if I come back to you, you will constantly bring it up and constantly want to talk about it. Therefore, for the first time, I agree with you, we need to get divorced. I want my freedom from you.

He is STILL in a relationship and having an affair and he is living in this house and he is angry at me for not being over it and/or bringing it up. He has not apologized, he has not ended it, and he is blaming me for our inevitable divorce because I'm too easily triggered. I can rationally see this as a gross distortion and manipulation but at the time, when he said it, "for the first time I agree," it was so painful to for a second question if this is really my fault. The truth is, he made the decision to break up with me a long time ago. He just hasn't had the guts to do what needs to be done to really end it. I am still playing catch up.

If he suggests leaving early, I will encourage it. If I cannot bear another minute I will ask him to go. Unless this markedly improve in the next 24 hours I probably will.

In the meantime, I feel utterly and completely sad right now and am trying my best not to cry. I don't know how any of you live with your MLC spouse I really don't. You are better people than me!

[Reinventing]

...he is blaming me for our inevitable divorce because I'm too easily triggered. I can rationally see this as a gross distortion and manipulation

Yes, this is gaslighting you. He is the one having the affair. You are somehow expected to just go with the flow and not be upset. And he can't reconcile because you are upset.

That is not based on reality.

[Dragonfly33]

Amazing Im so sorry to hear about your situation now. It’s totally normal to feel betrayed from his family. That’s how I felt about my xh’s family too. You are not any less than any lbs here. You are just trying to do what you think is right in your situation right now and that’s what you’re capable of as of this moment. That’s what my therapist said when I started telling her I should have done this or that. You’re still very fresh in all this chaos. Once all the dusts have settled you will know what you want. My xh did the same thing with me. I’ve lived with him for two years after BD and after Ive found out he ran off with the AP. He continued to contact the AP in our house and I swallowed it all. Until one day I had enough and I decided to fight for myself. I know how painful it is to be in your situation right now, but as they said here focus on what you can control. You h is treating you that way because he knows he can. And one day when you have enough, you will know what to do and your h will regret it.

[Treasur]

 I am so very sorry.

Please forgive yourself for the unwise Whats App message. You know it was a reaction rather than a response, I know, and an act of casting pearls before swine. I’d bet there isn’t a single one of us here who has not done something similar at some stage, perhaps multiple somethings. You’re human and no animals or children were injured in the process 

I suspect once you calm yourself a little, you will be able to see that only some of your emotion was about that actual SiL….it was probably a whole mixture of feelings about a whole mixture of things. Unravelling, as you have mentioned, is a process that can leave us feeling a bit unravelled bc the tendrils of a long marriage often stretch beyond the marriage. And people show us who they are in difficult situations, don’t they? Which of course can be a big disappointment.

And your h’s reaction? Well that’s a pretty textbook version of ‘the problem isn’t what I’m doing, it’s your reaction to what I’m doing’. A lot of us here know it well. It’s a default for disordered adults and teenagers.

I don’t know how things are going now and if you have asked him to leave, but a couple of thoughts occurred to me reading your post. And I apologise in advance bc they might be a bit uncomfortable to contemplate.

I think you might have mentioned on someone else’s thread (apologies if it wasn’t you) that spending time with our spouses increases that sense of being drawn into their mad version of reality. The more time you spend with your h in your home, or doing some version of shared family time, the more exposed you are to these kind of events. Something to muse on perhaps.

I also get a flavour that you have been a cheerleader, facilitator and supportive purse for both him and his extended family for quite a while. Bc for instance when you talk about ‘us’ sending SiL money, practically speaking you most likely mean ‘you’ bc you earn most of the money. This sort of kindness can be a funny old thing…on the surface it looks like being nice, but it can also be a strange kind of power dynamic. Which in turn can breed expectations and resentment. You are quite right that things will change in the nature of your relationship with his wider family..that’s normal and, with a kind eye, it’s a change that everyone affected can struggle with and not always bring their best self to the party.  But I really do get the sense that you have perhaps been a wider family fixer for quite a while. Musing on why and what you get from doing that might be worth your time too, if only bc musing on it is part of transitioning towards a new normal. Musing on it might also help you consider the basis for your current choices made under the heading of ‘good for the kids/other people’ and where you are investing your money and energy.

I also note that your reaction was based on quite a lot of inferences from a small exchange, and that you are still placing weight on your h’s words about ‘neutral’. Why would you do that? He’s a liar and has the mentality of a 13 year old and he does not respect your needs or feelings. That may not have been the truth before, but it is the current reality. So, consider the source; I would not automatically believe anything an MLCer says until or unless I could confirm it independently. I’m not saying you are wrong in your assessment of the situation or indeed your SiL’s character - you know her - but I am saying you are still, perhaps accidentally, treating your h’s opinion with too much respect. After all, it suits his agenda if others ‘support his happiness’, right? As opposed to calling him out on his deceit, self indulgence, immaturity and discarding of his role as a father.

I have a feeling that you might need to dig deep into the issue of boundaries, my friend. As most of us do especially early on…and although it doubtless feels like a lifetime, you ARE early on in this. Boundaries are so much less about asking others to behave better than we think at first. And so much more about what WE DO when they don’t. I think you’re still asking people to treat you with respect and fairness and kindness. (Hug) Bc it’s bewildering when they don’t, isn’t it? (Hug)
But I think you need to stop asking, start informing if necessary and above all start DOING. So, for instance, if his phone rings, ignore it as not your business. He will have the minor inconvenience of a missed call but you’re not the family telephone operator. And you don’t ask SiL to stay out of your way in Turkey - assuming you still go ahead with your plan - you simply walk out of spaces she walks into and refuse to take part in collective family activities but just drop the kids off and leave. No asking, no justification, just doing. The same for your h being in your home - you agreed to it, you can change your mind if you’ve tried it and it now feels inappropriate. Again, don’t ask, don’t explain - it’s obvious to anyone with half a brain who isn’t an MLCer lol - tell him he’s no longer welcome. And if he refuses to leave, treat him like a bad smell, tell him you will seek legal advice to have him removed, that Turkey is cancelled and him refusing to go will leave you much less inclined to be generous-minded in how you facilitate anything beyond bare bones legally required visitation in future. Then go about your day. There’s a lot of truth in the old aphorism that we teach people how we will allow them to treat us. And that is what boundaries are - actions that say clearly what we find acceptable and not, and how things are going to adapt in a new  changed future. We don’t ask, we require…and of course accept that others might not agree or like it which is their right. With a kind but honest eye, what messages do you think your current choices and planned ones are sending about your real boundaries? Bc from here it looks like it might be a bit wife/SiL/DiL as normal when you are no longer, and not by your choice, living in that old normal?

However, I hope that today you have woken up feelin a bit less sad and a bit more kind towards yourself and what you need. This unravelling time is a hard, hard time but it will not last forever…there is a good life on the other side of it xxx

[Dragonfly33]

Whatever your h tells you now is background noise. Tune it out and do not believe a single word. Unless it’s about your children. Otherwise it’s all unnecessary noise.

[KayDee]

So sorry AL - I hope you are feeling a bit more centred by the time you read this. As I was reading your post, many thoughts and responses came to mind and most of these have all been addressed by Treasur and DF.  The only thing I can add is this - I think, when we are first pulled into this maelstrom, it is hard (near impossible) to reprogram our expectations. We spend so long in a relationship dynamic that we feel we know like the proverbial back of our hands, that when this gets upended, we are completely adrift. Many of us get unwittingly pulled into a drama triangle, believing we have more relevance than we do and perhaps end up creating more grist for the MLC affair AND drama. The old program still says that we are the most important person to the MLCr's, and we keep operating under that illusion. The reality is that the MLCr is the most important person in their life (not the OP, BTW). The sooner I understood that, the better. It's a really hard pill to swallow. The hope is that it will not always be this way, but we can only go on the present. This is who your H is now. The more drama you add, perversely, the more fuel he gets from his actions. This is in NO way a criticism of you. You have been wonderfully normal, passionate and optimistic. But, it's time to roll up your sleeves. You need a safe haven away from the madness, for you and your kids.

[UrsaMajor]

Yep, you sure are...... HE is having the affair but it is YOUR fault because you are triggered easily?

[Dragonfly33]

I totally agree with KD! You just hit the jackpot there. The sooner you accept that your MLC H doesn’t care about you anymore the faster you can get out of that drama. I remember I was staring at my then H thinking how did he end up being so selfish and so consumed with himself. I couldn’t believe for longest time that I was not important to him anymore. This is exactly what KD is saying, we are running the old program but that program is obsolete and had been infected with MLC virus. But like I said you will see reality in your own time. You will realize ypu don’t wanna be part of this $h!te show anymore.

[Treasur]

I like that metaphor of the old program infected by the MLC virus and made obsolete.

But gosh it takes longer than one might imagine to really get that in your bones. It’s easier for us to see bc we are not you but we were once you, or pretty similar. We were running on the old program too…until something shifts in you…and that’s a very personal thing…and then the old program starts to feel very odd. Like a favourite old dress that doesn’t quite fit as it used to do. Once you reach that point, things start to look rather different.