[1trouble]

I was thinking , wondering ,  if the difference of opinion here is that 1trouble has heard the words from her mlc that he apologizes, ow is no good and so on that it makes it easier to stand in the position she is in . Compared to the ones who have heard nothing like 1t has heard from her mlcer. Some of us have heard nothing , nothing to help us heal from the mlcers pov. I think if many of us heard what 1t has heard , well it might just help us all. even though we all know this is not our fault, that the mlcer makes it up to be , it would still be nice to hear from the mlcer himself. When someone tears you down so much , it takes time to heal , a long time. But if the one who tore you down were to tell you , it was all my fault and your are really a good person , the healing would not take half as long.
My h said almost 2 years ago that he hated what he had done to me and the kids. Sure it made me feel good. He said you know that is not me.   Some sort of admittance that he was wrong.   Sad to say he is still a mess.

I read this at work and I just want to say for the record.........my MLC'er has never apologised
He said he had made a mistake and he said the OW was not fit to lick my boots BUT then went back the next day ( 7 weeks ago) to be with his now wife and I haven't heard a peep since....
To me those words were as pointless, as those MLC'ers who say they want to come home and then go back in the fog, these words are all uttered from someone who is still deep in crisis and just having a moment where the fog was not so thick,
They are empty words and as the old saying goes 'actions speak louder than words'.....give me actions every time

As I understood it, what 1T is saying is that if you are questioning your marriage pre-BD, that's your own issue to deal with, not the MLCer's. If you don't know if it was real when it seemed real before, well, that's all a matter of your own perception.

That's different IMO from getting an explanation or remorse from the MLCer for what happened during MLC though.

And thank you  NYM for getting what I meant...…


And to the moderators I think SS thread is invaluable and this discussion that is now taking place is derailing SS much needed insights so IMO maybe the question of apologies etc needs to be split onto another thread

But before I finish what I will say is before I met my MLC'er I was in a few very abusive relationships, (physical and mental abuse) I have documented why before, basically I was raped when I was 16 and it caused me to have a very low self esteem which meant I was an easy target for abuse
So I do come here with a lot of experience of gaslighting  and I have had to work hard to stop those negative messages in my head and to his credit my MLC'er before all this helped me massively and I am very grateful for that

I know what abuse is and I know what love is

AND Also I want to suggest that we can all get into the trap of feeling 'safe' in our role of "wronged victim",

Before anyone points any fingers or takes this personally, I am NOT saying this about anyone in particular

I hold my hands up to doing it, of being in that particular bubble of putting more effort into why I could not move forward and almost feeling I was a special case and had been wronged more than anyone can understand,  of putting more energy into staying stuck looking for answers instead of just putting one foot in front of the other and moving forward slowly.

Don't get me wrong I know we are a 'special case' in some respects because we don't get the empathy or sympathy someone who is bereaved does and people jump to assumptions of why our marriages went wrong there is that hint of 'no-one knows what goes on behind closed doors' mentality BUT why should we then join those doubters, and doubt what we had and our own experience, surely that is gaslighting ourselves? 

For most of us, including me there will not be a heartfelt apology, I definitely don't see getting one and I don't seek it either, it wont change anything.  One of the people who absused me spent years telling any shared acquaintances we had how much he regretted everything, even said he wanted to reconcile, it didn't mean anything to me because I had moved on it was his loss as far as I was concerned.

[sparklestar]

1t that second to last paragraph just jumped out at me. It’s the lack of understanding of others that’s sometimes makes it so hard to ever talk about. I feel like you have to give some long winded explanation that it wasn’t a normal divorce or breakup, that I was effectively ‘ghosted’ by my own husband and that there weren’t any discussions or month or years of unhappiness (that I knew about) and I think people automatically assume there must have been ‘problems’ in the marriage. It’s always bothered me.

And 1t, your story always has and probably always will shock me. I just don’t get how your MLCr can say what he does and then disappear again.

In reference to SS and this thread, I don’t know if it’s just me but I would LOVE to see a conversation between Denjef and Shocks sis this has been so helpful to so many and I know when Denjef was answering our questions a few years ago it was also invaluable!

[megogirl]

but I would LOVE to see a conversation between Denjef and Shocks sis this has been so helpful to so many and I know when Denjef was answering our questions a few years ago it was also invaluable!

I second that!  They're both equally valuable!

[Bewildered survivor]

I’m also one who has had no words of regret since BD. In fact my MLCer is going out of his way to ‘show’ me how great OW is and how great his life is. Of course I intellectually know that if it was that great & he was so happy to have left me then my reaction wouldnt matter to him. In fact one of the most hurtful texts (a long time ago when I was engaging with monster) he said how leaving me was the best thing he did and all he wanted was his children & OW bla bla oh and how she valued things in life soo much more (she hardly works, he pays for everything and she had nothing before- of course she values him (& his bank balance) oh and of course herself when she went after a married man 

Anyway I digress...my point is that when you’ve had monster who has been consistently abusive- even & normal text without the abuse would be much appreciated. Some respite from the gas lighting would also be great. An apology or just a sentence saying what 1T’s MLCer said I would lap up I think. It would also confirm and validate what’s going on.  However when such things have been said soo many times and when actions don’t fit what they say- I also understand how hard that would be.  Saying something like that about OW  & then going back to her I find soo hard to comprehend.

What shocks sis says about her stage of indifference is also welcome. With not much contact I don’t know if he’s anywhere near it. All I know is that it’s been 2 years since BD and the anger and hatred towards me is still burning strong- even with minimal contact.

I respect what shocks sis says about her decision regarding her xh and we have no idea about individual circumstances or details. Personally however even if I have moved on- I don’t see myself ever not wanting an apology. Just a “I’m sorry for what I did”. If I was in a relationship I can understand how saying ‘I never stopped loving you’ would not be appropriate. 3 years ago if someone had said you will feel high levels of anxiety having any communication with you H I would never have believed them. But at this stage I would be totally avoidant of any communication- and if he was to come out of this I’m sure he would pick up on it and the amount of hurt & pain he’s caused and like shocks sis maybe not want to hurt me more. I wonder shocks sis if you are also anxious and worried about what his reaction to you would be- every human being has a natural instinct to avoid what makes us feel under threat- inc possible rejection, the uncertainty & unknown but also any reminder of past trauma.

Thank you for your continued insights and answers (at times repeated answers) & your patience shocks sis. Having no insight from my MLCer,  I soo appreciate yours. Unfortunately my MLCer is making all the decisions you say he shouldn’t whilst deep in the fog & so the crazy train wreck continues.

[Anjae]

I got several I'm sorries and it is all my fault from Mr J early on and in 2012. Made no difference. He remained in Replay and MLC life. If the apologies and the it was all his faul was heartfelt, I don't know. Some were with him crying saying he was depressed and didn't knew what to do, but wanted no help. 

Mr J is not an indifferent MLCer. He is the sort who wants my attention and does all he can to get it, even if it means to do tons of ugly, nasty, hurtful things, including all sorts of abuse. He wants fights and arguments and gets truly angry when he gets none.

He is exhausting and that is why, at a point, I cut him off. I needed peace and to keep my sanity. In one month it will be 13 years Mr J left. His anger and nasty towards me remains full force.

Apologies don't mean much to me, actions do. So far, Mr J's ones have not showed he is anywhere near having a good insight into his issues or how to start solving them. Let alone making amends towards me. I am speaking of practical amends. Him stop being rude in several of the few occasions we interact for legal or business reasons  would also be welcome.

[Standing Strong]

I got several I'm sorries and it is all my fault from Mr J early on and in 2012. Made no difference. He remained in Replay and MLC life. If the apologies and the it was all his faul was heartfelt, I don't know. Some were with him crying saying he was depressed and didn't knew what to do, but wanted no help. 

Mr J is not an indifferent MLCer. He is the sort who wants my attention and does all he can to get it, even if it means to do tons of ugly, nasty, hurtful things, including all sorts of abuse. He wants fights and arguments and gets truly angry when he gets none.

He is exhausting and that is why, at a point, I cut him off. I needed peace and to keep my sanity. In one month it will be 13 years Mr J left. His anger and nasty towards me remains full force.

Apologies don't mean much to me, actions do. So far, Mr J's ones have not showed he is anywhere near having a good insight into his issues or how to start solving them. Let alone making amends towards me. I am speaking of practical amends. Him stop being rude in several of the few occasions we interact for legal or business reasons  would also be welcome.

Anjae,

I could be wrong.... but I think the desire is for them to come out of MLC and then apologize and explain..... not before (as that does mean nothing.....sometimes).

As for me, it would be great for W to come out and explain all the terrible things she said to me, and say she's sorry for them. I'd like that..... not so much for the being sorry, but for knowing she made it, she's going to be ok, and that the person I knew is truly alive again.
I hope.... someday.

-SS

[Anjae]

I could be wrong.... but I think the desire is for them to come out of MLC and then apologize and explain..... not before (as that does mean nothing.....sometimes).

SS, 1trouble mentioned hers said he made a terrible mistake, Bewildered that she got no words of regret since BD, I mentioned what Mr J said over the years. We are talking about our experiences with our MLCer.

I'm sure yes, most, or many, here would like the out of crisis MLCer to apologize and explain.

I don't want or need an explanation, I'm familiar with the explanations MLCers give - the explanations also tend to follow a scrip and be similar. I need practical amends.

I am not sure you understand what 13 years in Replay mean... and how much of a difference that makes from a MLCer who is, say a few months or  2 or 3 years into Replay. I also don't know if, as a newbie, you understand the difference between having a spouse whose BD was a few months ago and having a spouse/MLCer whose BD was over 10 years ago.

After 5, 7, 10, 13 or so years of a spouse who no longer is the same person I think many of us change a little bit the way we see things.

[SteelSpine]

I think apologies are overrated. I always roll my eyes whenever a politician "Demands An Apology!" from another one. I don't think that it achieves much.

That being said however, I have had numerous apologies from my h, many of which I honestly believe were sincere. He is much like 1t's h.

No monster after the first six months or so, and sometimes I have even received apologies in advance.

I am not saying that I would prefer an abusive mlc'er, but all the confusion and contrition kept hope alive, and hampered my detachment. It also fed the voice in my head that said "It really WAS me, and our marriage, and it's not MLC at all"

It was any hint of crazytown behavior that I lapped up.

[Acorn]

Interesting topic, these 4 A’s.

I remember desperately wanting to hear H’s sincere words of 4 A’s.
Now I couldn’t give rats about them.  Give me action any day, preferably every single day!
 
What I have learned through my LBS-hood is that words are cheap indeed.
Words without matching actions is dead.  Well, comatose, at least, until actions follow. 

Actions, mostly unaccompanied by words, restore and heal R.  That’s been so with us.
H mumbled a few words of 4 A’s here and there but his redemption is mostly through his actions, and everyday. 

Words are overrated. Not just with MLCer, but with everyone.  But then, that’s just me.

[OffRoad]

A genuine apology or remorse from my MLCER would not make me feel better about what he did. It would make be feel better about where he will end up and how my kids will end up. I realized recently, I've reached the point where I am ok enough to want every one else in this tragedy to also come out healthy and whole. Right now, my kids think what happened was "normal". An apology from their father would show them different. Remorse from xh would show me he has the concept of morally acceptable and isn't dead inside anymore.
To me apologies and remorse are not just words spoken. They are everything you do, words and actions.

How do the players in this mess come out whole, when part of them think this is just how you do things?

[Penelope2018]

His words mean nothing. Any apology he has made or will make is inauthentic IMO. I rarely speak to my xh anymore and he questions me about it every time that I do. I can clearly remember him saying something along the lines of "yeah, you don't want words, you want actions" whenever I said, "why would I answer your calls? do these conversations benefit me in some way?" In fact, if he was to start apologizing profusely all of a sudden, I would see it as him trying to get something out of me. A form of manipulation so he can use me in some way. That's how he and I think most of them operate.

[Standing Strong]

I could be wrong.... but I think the desire is for them to come out of MLC and then apologize and explain..... not before (as that does mean nothing.....sometimes).

SS, 1trouble mentioned hers said he made a terrible mistake, Bewildered that she got no words of regret since BD, I mentioned what Mr J said over the years. We are talking about our experiences with our MLCer.

I'm sure yes, most, or many, here would like the out of crisis MLCer to apologize and explain.

I don't want or need an explanation, I'm familiar with the explanations MLCers give - the explanations also tend to follow a scrip and be similar. I need practical amends.

I am not sure you understand what 13 years in Replay mean... and how much of a difference that makes from a MLCer who is, say a few months or  2 or 3 years into Replay. I also don't know if, as a newbie, you understand the difference between having a spouse whose BD was a few months ago and having a spouse/MLCer whose BD was over 10 years ago.

After 5, 7, 10, 13 or so years of a spouse who no longer is the same person I think many of us change a little bit the way we see things.

No doubt, and you're right.... I have no concept of what that's like..... no understanding. The trauma, the stress, the complete changes wrought...... yes, I have no clue about that. I can only imagine......
For me at this stage, looking into the possible future..... if mine spins off into oblivion..... do I want (at this stage) for her to return someday and say why...... yes, absolutely. Not for me to close my wound.... but to know she ended up ok. I think a fear I have is that she would be destroyed forever and never recover. To know at some point they made it..... a big yes to that... even if life has moved forward and there's no way home.

-SS

[Velika]

My now ex apologized to me. I maintain almost no contact (and it would be 100 percent no contact except we coparent), and it was by phone after our dog died, the only time I have talked to him in two years

It made no difference to my healing.

I noticed in the beginning that if my now ex showed me any small type of consideration or apparent compassion I would suddenly be able to feel empathy for myself. It has taken me a long time, but what is more healing than an apology from a MLCer is to feel true and genuine compassion for yourself and what you have gone through at the hands of a disordered and unwell person.

I feel it is unfortunate that many people are told that eventually their spouse will come out of this at a certain stage and feel remorse. This may be if your spouse or ex is having a very mild crisis, but my observation from this forum is that the very extreme ones are either disoriented like 1T’s ex, or erratic and unreliable, often deteriorating beyond recognition. No one wants to hear this, but in some ways it will validate what you suspect initially — your first instinct likely — that your spouse is not well.

Rather than wait for an apology that may not mean much, or come with the behavior you would like to see, I encourage everyone here to seek treatment for trauma (PTSD or CPTSD) and learn to experience deep self compassion. This is the way out!

Big hugs. 💛

[Anjae]

SS, Like us all, you know the pain, trauma and stess of BD. You saw your wife change into someone who do not recognise. Mid and old timers have all been where newbies are.

BD stress is huge and affects us in countless ways. Then, some of us have MLCers that vanish or semi-vanish, others have MLCers that never let go, and some, like you, have live-in MLCers. A MLCer that keeps causing more and more and more damages and/or is abusive in any way is quite a serious issue for the LBS health. Even one who just wallows is quite a serious health issue for the LBS.

I think a fear I have is that she would be destroyed forever and never recover.

It is normal to fear so. Most MLCers do not seem to end up destroyed by MLC. Not even those like Mr J and others that remain countless years in Replay.

I am not saying that I would prefer an abusive mlc'er, but all the confusion and contrition kept hope alive, and hampered my detachment.

From personal experience, and I am only speaking for myself, I don't know if it is easier to detach from an abusive MLCers that is also the king of clingers. I wasn't improving or being able to detach when Mr J was always after me, even if only by electronic means or with constant court cases. It was overwelming, insane and gave me no space to breath, recover or heal.

It also fed the voice in my head that said "It really WAS me, and our marriage, and it's not MLC at all"

It wasn't you nor your marriage. It was MLC.

Now I couldn’t give rats about them.  Give me action any day, preferably every single day!

Another who feels the same way. I am not saying, don't talk with your MLCer when he/she is again capable of being normal. Humans talk, but there is far more to communication that the spoken word. When my maternal grandmother could no longer speak I still manage to communicate with her and understand what she was saying with her eyes and facial expression (at that point she had lost all other mobility).

What I have learned through my LBS-hood is that words are cheap indeed.
Words without matching actions is dead.  Well, comatose, at least, until actions follow.

Words can be amazing. I love poetry and novels and those require words. But when it comes to MLC and some other real life situations, actions speak louder than words.

Words with nothing to back them up, if you ask me, better not even say them. I know MLCers will say lots of things they do not follow through with. It is part of their process.

I realized recently, I've reached the point where I am ok enough to want every one else in this tragedy to also come out healthy and whole.

I am all for everyone in this tragedy to come out of it OK and healed, and that includes every HS member and their spouse or ex-spouse as well as their kids if existing.

I feel it is unfortunate that many people are told that eventually their spouse will come out of this at a certain stage and feel remorse.

I don't think anyone tells a specific LBS their MLCer will come out of MLC and will feel remorse. What is often told, by myself included, is that, as a general rule, MLCers come out of MLC, tend to want to be back, but the LBS has moved on. Remorse is different than an apology.

This may be if your spouse or ex is having a very mild crisis, but my observation from this forum is that the very extreme ones are either disoriented like 1T’s ex, or erratic and unreliable, often deteriorating beyond recognition.

Maybe you missed the several mid and long timers that have reconnected and reconciled, including some with quite extreme MLCers? Why do you consider 1trouble's ex extreme? He is pretty tame by MLC patterns. At least compared with the likes of Mr J and others.

My cousin who had MLC, that I mentioned above, had a short, mild MLC. He deteriorating beyond recognition. He come out of it and is fine.

No one wants to hear this, but in some ways it will validate what you suspect initially — your first instinct likely — that your spouse is not well.

Don't we all know our spouse or ex-spouse is not well? If we think they were well we wouldn't had come here, would we? 

How do the players in this mess come out whole, when part of them think this is just how you do things?

Do you mean MLCer, LBS or both? In any case, I would say it depends of each person and I am not certain if it will be possible for many to be fully whole again.

[Velika]

I feel it is unfortunate that many people are told that eventually their spouse will come out of this at a certain stage and feel remorse.

I don't think anyone tells a specific LBS their MLCer will come out of MLC and will feel remorse. What is often told, by myself included, is that, as a general rule, MLCers come out of MLC, tend to want to be back, but the LBS has moved on. Remorse is different than an apology.

This may be if your spouse or ex is having a very mild crisis, but my observation from this forum is that the very extreme ones are either disoriented like 1T’s ex, or erratic and unreliable, often deteriorating beyond recognition.

Maybe you missed the several mid and long timers that have reconnected and reconciled, including some with quite extreme MLCers? Why do you consider 1trouble's ex extreme? He is pretty tame by MLC patterns. At least compared with the likes of Mr J and others.

My cousin who had MLC, that I mentioned above, had a short, mild MLC. He deteriorating beyond recognition. He come out of it and is fine.

No one wants to hear this, but in some ways it will validate what you suspect initially — your first instinct likely — that your spouse is not well.

Don't we all know our spouse or ex-spouse is not well? If we think they were well we wouldn't had come here, would we? 

* * * *

It is a fantasy to say that as a general rule most come out and want to come home. Maybe momentarily. Maybe they have private regrets at moments. But this is not recovery.

Many MLCers are filled with self pity, even before bomb drop. My ex still is. If I pay close attention, what sometimes seems like "regret," is either self indulgent or just simply childish self pity.

Some may actually come home but my suspicion is that many simply do so when things don't work out with OW or other things in their life. Many lavendar threads are hard to read because the authors are traumatized people who are now living closely with the disordered/unwell person who traumatized them.

Maybe in some cases this is financially important, or kids are involved, or some other reason. The LBS may just be a very loving person who is willing to accept that someone they loved has changed, and to live a life of agape love and devotion to marriage or their spouse. Maybe their spouse, post MLC, is changed but mellow and this is enough.

But this is not the same as someone recovering, nor do I think it is the norm. Becoming emotionally blunted or having large memory gaps is not the same as recovery, and in fact quite alarming and an indicator that someone is not well, or experienced some type of neurological change.

[FIRETRUCK]

My MLCer has apologised numerous times over the years..always using 'broad strokes' .
As the years dragged on (I think its been close to 7 or more) I would see some firm 'actions' too and awareness of the untold damage and hurt he caused - Just enough for me to be grateful that I was no longer being demonised/financially/emotionally abused by him. 
I'm sure he is sorry...but I suspect it is still a selfish regret. Our divorce was final last month.
I think those that are in close contact with their MLCer may live to see the day when the 4 'A's are obvious and will realise that accountability in particular will be key in moving forward. But for all of us not until our former spouses unfunk themselves.
Apologies = cold comfort.
Just my 2 cents.
Firetruck

[Treasur]

Such an interesting discussion thread....

The 4 A's...we seem to feel instinctively that some or all of these are necessary to heal and be an emotionally healthy human after some kind of life-altering change or crisis?
Acknowledgement - does that mean validation?
Accountability - not being a victim or blaming others so we can be in charge of our own lives?
Acceptance - seeing and speaking the truth and dealing with reality as it is now?
Apology - having empathy or feeling remorse?
I guess some of us might define these things differently? Are there any missing A's? Idk. And are all of the A's of equal weight? Idk.

Seems to me too - which I think is shown in the discussion so far - that if being a healthy human is the outcome, then the discussion has three aspects.
Which of the 4 A's WE need to DO to be healthy ourselves?
Which of them we believe our MLCer needs to DO to be healthy?
(Assuming that some kind of thinking/feeling shift is necessary for either one before any kind of DO is possible.)
And I suppose if there is any interaction betweeen our 4 A's and their 4 A's? If we need to receive things from them or indeed they from us for any kind of healing?

Not sure I have any answers lol but I look forward to learning from the different perspectives.

[Limboland2018]

My mlcer told me none of this was my fault but then lists off what was wrong with our marriage (would have been nice for him to tell me before so we could sort it out) He did apologize in his way and told me he wanted to try to be a family again.  He kicked his woman out. Gave me money and paid the cc off. He’s gone into a treatment facility for depression and addiction as he said he’s been depressed for 5 years. Every day his self talk is “I hate myself. I hate my life”. Then I found out that he went out with ow the weekend prior to checking into the clinic. he allowed her to upload a picture of them together to his WhatsApp profile. He blocked me so I wouldn’t see it. He told me he thought she was been nice and that he didn’t want to hurt me so he blocked me (goodness talk about a crap excuse!) So all the apologies and his previous acts of goodwill were nullified. He gave me excuses for why he allowed the picture but his words are empty.  Having an apology means nothing. Actions are the key but even then,  mlcers minds are so broken it’s hard to trust.

[Keep believing]

Someone mentioned something about the kids thinking this is normal. This is what i despise. The kids know no difference in a divorce such as ours. How can you make a person see that our d to these mlcers is completely abnormal?

[Not Applicable]

I have a question. When you all talk about "actions" being needed, what exactly are you talking about?

I always find it strange that people say that actions are more important than words and that words are meaningless. My H is pretty good about actions, and is fairly responsible, and seems to take pride in that, but the words? Very very rare and not sufficient at all. I do not see that he is capable of words at the moment. Perhaps it is simply because he's not someone who fakes things so he simply can't just say some throwaway words to placate me. I can't imagine he will say them until he is ready to own them and stand by them, if that makes sense. And he is not there yet. So for me, the barometer is the words, not the actions.

[Busy_Bee]

Not Your Monkey,
 

I have a question. When you all talk about "actions" being needed, what exactly are you talking about?

My X is a clinger, he was talking about him making a mistake and asking to take him back for many many times ( I couldn't remember how many), but always ended up going back to make the same mistakes. Would I believe him again? no way. I need more then his words.

Your H is currently doing what he wants without any explanation ( ex. I want to have OW and I will have one) Is he just a jerk or he is in MLC? We don;t know your story.
You do.

[Not Applicable]

You are out of line suggesting my H is a jerk. You are completely incorrect that he has done anything without an explanation. In fact, I probably have gotten a lot more detailed explanation than most people on here and so that is why I have never had any doubt that he is in MLC and I have made my choice to stand with as much information as possible. It's just the explanation is none of your business.

I share my full story with those who I trust. Period. The details of an MLC are not fluff. They aren't silly superficial things like shark eyes and buzz cuts and changes in music tastes and clothes.  This is a serious, life changing, horrific experience for both MLCer and LBS and often other parties built on top of a history of horrific child abuse and the fact is I am not going to put it all out there to have it ripped to shreds and let anonymous people on the internet cause me more trauma than I have been through already by judging the choices both of us have made years before and during this crisis that have led us to where we are today. It is quite clear at least one person I trusted with my story breached that trust and gossiped to others and there are some twisted and false rumors floating about in PMs about me as evidenced by some nasty veiled remarks people have made publicly. That's enough abuse, so why should I put up with any more than that? I actually had planned to tell my whole story here someday, but after these public breaches of my privacy I don't think I ever will. A few bad apples spoil the barrel.  Is that so damn hard for you to understand?

That said, this is a man that I love and have compassion for and who is the kind of person if you stand by him, he will stand by you and I am that way too. So if you cross my H, you cross me. If you hurt my H, you hurt me. If you disrespect my H, you disrespect me. My H has recently affirmed his commitment to me and trust in me, both in words and actions, but he is not yet at a point where he can say what I want to hear about his MLC actions because his MLC is NOT over. My H is a very lucky MLCer, because he has a very devoted wife who has earned that commitment and trust both before and during MLC.  And I am proud of that. 

[OffRoad]

NYM,
Please go back and read what busy bee said. While the first sentence may not have reflected what you believe to have conveyed at some point on some thread somewhere ( I can't say I recall seeing a post from you to the contrary of what busy bee wrote, especially since your name has changed several times and I believe you said you has no thread of your own-I could be wrong on that, but said post well could exist on some thread that was missed by many), the second part merely asked IF your H is just a jerk or in MLC, that we don't know your story (true) and that you do (true). This implies that you are in a better place to determine if he is just a jerk or is in MLC. No accusations of being a jerk, just a question.

As to your question, words or actions can be lies, in all honesty. A person can do what looks like nice things for you (the generic you), but they do it for their own benefit, not because they care about you. Most people have experience with verbal lies, not so much action lies. For me, there was a time when at home mlc ExH brought me food on a regular basis. And slurpees. I could have construed that as proof he still loved me. Not so much, though. He still had to run eventually.

I might conjecture that for the MLCer, when the words match the actions and the words and actions match what the LBS WANTS from a relationship, then it will feel like Acknowledgement, Accountabiltiy, and Acceptance. If the Apology comes at that point, it might be believed. Just an apology without substance means little to nothing. My 2 cents.

[SteelSpine]

Veering off topic, but OMG NYM- he got rid of the OW??

[Penelope2018]

NYM,
Please go back and read what busy bee said. While the first sentence may not have reflected what you believe to have conveyed at some point on some thread somewhere ( I can't say I recall seeing a post from you to the contrary of what busy bee wrote, especially since your name has changed several times and I believe you said you has no thread of your own-I could be wrong on that, but said post well could exist on some thread that was missed by many), the second part merely asked IF your H is just a jerk or in MLC, that we don't know your story (true) and that you do (true). This implies that you are in a better place to determine if he is just a jerk or is in MLC. No accusations of being a jerk, just a question.

As to your question, words or actions can be lies, in all honesty. A person can do what looks like nice things for you (the generic you), but they do it for their own benefit, not because they care about you. Most people have experience with verbal lies, not so much action lies. For me, there was a time when at home mlc ExH brought me food on a regular basis. And slurpees. I could have construed that as proof he still loved me. Not so much, though. He still had to run eventually.

I might conjecture that for the MLCer, when the words match the actions and the words and actions match what the LBS WANTS from a relationship, then it will feel like Acknowledgement, Accountabiltiy, and Acceptance. If the Apology comes at that point, it might be believed. Just an apology without substance means little to nothing. My 2 cents.

It took me a long time to realize this too. I mean I knew it in the back of my mind but it took  me a while to truly come to terms with the fact that he would say anything and even do minor routines from the past just to keep me hanging on. I stand corrected now in that actions don't mean much either from these people. Mine did the same as yours, he would bring me a meal from our (previous) favorite restaurant and a tea from McD's almost every day and it made me feel like he still cared in some way but really it was just a manipulation tactic or even pity. When I pull away, out come the "I love you," "I miss you," "Come home," messages. They always have an ulterior motive and it has nothing to do with your benefit, ever. I learned that the hard way and it's not something I could ever share here because it's really embarrassing how he used me. They're very, very deceitful.

[Anjae]

Seems to me too - which I think is shown in the discussion so far - that if being a healthy human is the outcome, then the discussion has three aspects.
Which of the 4 A's WE need to DO to be healthy ourselves?

For me, Acceptance. We can't change what is going on.

Which of them we believe our MLCer needs to DO to be healthy?
(Assuming that some kind of thinking/feeling shift is necessary for either one before any kind of DO is possible.)

All 4. In the MLCer's case Acceptance is accepting they did what they did.

And I suppose if there is any interaction betweeen our 4 A's and their 4 A's? If we need to receive things from them or indeed they from us for any kind of healing?

I don't know. The matter is a bit above my paygrade and it has also been too many years for me. The whole thing is a faint memory. I am, however, in favour of restorative justice. For me that would be Mr J giving me all the money he owns me and legally has to.

That does not require any interaction between us, other than bank details or a check.


When I mean actions matter and not words, I am talking about consistent actions. Agree with OffRoad, at a point the words have to match the actions and both need to be consistent.

[barbiedoll]

Seems I may be the odd one out here . I needed words without question. The 4 A's were and are vital in my journey forward with my husband . Without them..I never would have continued to try to reconcile or fix this mess. I cannot even imagine how some (most) LBS seem to feel "words are meaningless". Without "words" would I ever allowed my husband back into our home??  NEVER. My husbands "actions" in our entire marriage were always solid, positive and responsible. He always "did" the right things . But the monster-words out of his mouth changed who I am , how I trust, how I feel about relationships, how I love and even how I parent. His "words " changed my entire world.

Acknowledgement - Without acknowledging the pain, deep life altering hurt in me and my daughters ...I don't want him in my life. He is not the kind of "man" I could ever love again. If he cannot comprehend the full weight of his actions, his words ...he can continue to live in his truck and find himself another OW.

Accountability - Hearing "blame" ...is my #1 trigger.  It took almost 4 years to get the reactivity under control. I heard blame, even when there was none...according to 2 therapists. I was "hearing thru a wound". If he is unable to voice words of accountability, to own his sh*t...how will I ever know ?  My intuition is on shakey ground...he needs to use his big boy words, speak from his heart and tell me who he is . If he is unable to do this...trust will never be restored.

Acceptance - seeing and speaking the truth and dealing with reality as it is now. Acceptance that there is much work and words if you want to fix your life, your marriage and your role as a father. Acceptance of who you are and a willingness to commit to educating , seek and do whatever it takes ..to like the man you are becoming.

Apologize. My husband has apologized many many times...verbally, in writing and in many ways ( I am not minimizing actions). It took me over 2 years to "feel" his apology , to feel any emotion attached to his words . Maybe longer . But it was vital to hear ...otherwise, I cannot imagine wanting this man . I should wonder if he is sorry ? I should wonder if he has remorse ?   No.

Having said all that ..I also agree that actions are equally important . Not 1 being far more important than the other . I am NOT dismissing the absolute importance of consistent actions that back up your words. But for me , if there are no words, I will not hang around to watch your actions.

[Anjae]

Barbie, I don't need words because it has been 13 years of Mr J gone. If he come back six months after he left, they probably would had been.

I am not planning to reconnect or reconcile. It is a very different situation than yours.

And I have had words, plenty of them, but that was all I had and they meant nothing and changed nothing. So, to me, unless there are actions and those actions are consistent, words are just that, words.

The monster words of Mr J after he left include "I want you dead and I am going to rip that baby out of you no matter what", "I want you in the street, under a bridge, because I want to come back to the flat and have it for myself" and other similar things.

Those words come with physical violence and destruction of stuff in the home. Being nearly killed was far more of a problem than the words that were being said, even if the words were beyond the pale and of extreme violence.

With such words I knew he had fully lost it and was a danger.

Do you think a I'm sorry is going to mean a thing after the things Mr J did and said? The less he says, the better. I have tons, and I mean tons, of e-mails from him filled with all sorts of words. From I'm sorry to I hate you and everything in between.

Actions is all that matter to me. And by actions I mean a civil way of sorting all that needs to be sorted out plus all the money that I am legally entitled to.

[Treasur]

This topic seems to be in the HS 'zeitgeist' right now on a few threads. Not sure why, but imho when issues generate heat they can also generate light perhaps? For me, it is driven by my own perception of how you heal as an LBS and that is entirely a function of where I happen to be right now.

There is a potential confusion maybe in the temptation to see all MLCers as the same or indeed all LBS as the same. Maybe the similarities are sharper at the beginning of this experience but become more individual as it evolves...both situation and how the personalities of LBS/MLCer come into play? Acorn posted some interesting reflections on her thread about how she saw her spouse work his way towards some of this stuff at different MLC 'stages'.

I was thinking this morning that all LBS get hurt, but maybe we don't all get hurt in exactly the same way. And maybe the lasting damage is different too. If that's true, it makes sense to me that we might need different things to heal so our POV on the 4 A's here as well as words/actions would be different.

My xh essentially ended our m by ghosting me and running away. My deepest hurt was about being ignored and unseen. And powerless probably. So it makes sense to me that, even if I do not exoect it, the hurt bit of me wants Acknowledgement most of all. That I want to be heard and seen, to feel like I mattered as a human being. My hurt was probably compounded bc I lost the other folks who saw me most simultaneously. It is probably an emotional need more than a practical one. It makes sense to me too that other LBS may have hurts that are more about horrific words or financial damage so may feel a different need.

And my own experience of healing myself has led me to believe that Accountability is essential to healing, in myself and in others. I may be wrong but I honestly don't believe that anyone who causes profound damage to another human can ever heal themselves until they see the damage and take some accountability for the effects of their actions even if they were unintentional. I damaged myself by some of my reactions to events and until I could begin to Acknowledge that by looking at it in a way which was more than passive Acceptancd and take Accountability for addressing it, I was stuck. Maybe that was also about the feeling of powerlessness that came with being ghosted and gaslit. Neither have anything to do with blame though in my case and, although words (in terms of my own self-talk) matter, actions matter much more. I suppose I believe that remorse drives change more than regret, and I don't see how you can feel remorse unless you see the damage and feel accountable for your part in it.

And my xh? Well I have a vanisher so I don't know much at all. And I didn't get the 101 Reasons Why I Hate You list. I got nothing but silence really. But I loved this human for two decades, he isn't a bad person, I honestly believe he broke in some way, that he did things that were out of character and destructive, and I would like him to be healed and unbroken bc he still matters to me I suppose. I honestly expect nothing from him that will help me heal though based on what I know as it stands. Nor would I ask for it, bc that seems futile and cart before horse-ish to me. You really can't teach another human to be a decent human or to feel what a healthy human should feel...that I HAVE learned lol.

At the same time, there probably is a small bit of my healing that would be served by feeling some Acknowledgement from him that I mattered enough as a person to be seen again just a little. But the Accountability bit is less about me and more about seeing evidence of his recovery I think? And it would be nice some day to see that just a little, even if I don't expect to see it if that makes sense. Neither Acknowledgement or Accountability by him would make much practical difference to my life now....they might have done earlier, but I am too far along my own path and neither one restores anything that was lost or destroyed....but although I will live without them, I would see either as a welcome and positive gift I suppose.

[New Day Rising]

In the early days, I had many cryptic acknowledgments from my ex about his remorse, but never an official apology and I want one. I don't want him back, but he know what he did.

His remorse has been acknowledged in early conversations and his need to remain in contact which I have ended and stopped all contact with the exception of the kids.

In the early days I spoke about his job and how he should have left a lot sooner as the stress was way too much and he said 'Yes, I know. I should have left ages ago and I wouldn't be in this mess'.

Then I've had phone conversations with where he sobbed down the phone 'What did I do?'. I told him at the time I thought he needed some time on his own to figure out what he wanted.

He has called me to tell me how he is getting help now. When I have responded 'And what does that have to do with me?' He has replied 'PW, you're a difficult woman to please'. I replied with actions speak louder than words. He didn't really show me he was getting any help.

When he has been on the phone to our son, he has then sent me a message afterwards to tell me 'How happy I sound'.

Then he got engaged and told me that it was just about the kids now as he's engaged. I acknowledged it and then a few months later he asked if he could come round and see the kids maybe once or twice a week and walk the dog (The dog wasn't one we had when he left). You can't be engaged to someone else and come round to the house and play family. It doesn't work like that. He saw red when my reply was 'Our lives are completely separate now.'

I've had a messaged saying 'Can I come home now?' and then later he said it wasn't for me. I don't believe him.

So, there's been times when he's shown remorse, but it's not a heart felt apology and I really want that from him. I know SS has mentioned she is respecting her ex husband by not offering an apology and I respect that she knows her ex, but for me, a heart felt apology from my ex would be great. It would greatly improve our co-parenting relationship and I would have a lot more respect for him. In my heart of hearts, I really know deep down he regrets what he's done, but he's felt it got too far, but I just want that confirmation. Doubt I'll get it.

All I've seen is his own self pity. Urrrgghhhh.

[AlvinTheMaker]

Such an interesting discussion thread....

The 4 A's...we seem to feel instinctively that some or all of these are necessary to heal and be an emotionally healthy human after some kind of life-altering change or crisis?
Acknowledgement - does that mean validation?
Accountability - not being a victim or blaming others so we can be in charge of our own lives?
Acceptance - seeing and speaking the truth and dealing with reality as it is now?
Apology - having empathy or feeling remorse?
I guess some of us might define these things differently? Are there any missing A's? Idk. And are all of the A's of equal weight? Idk.

Seems to me too - which I think is shown in the discussion so far - that if being a healthy human is the outcome, then the discussion has three aspects.
Which of the 4 A's WE need to DO to be healthy ourselves?
Which of them we believe our MLCer needs to DO to be healthy?
(Assuming that some kind of thinking/feeling shift is necessary for either one before any kind of DO is possible.)
And I suppose if there is any interaction betweeen our 4 A's and their 4 A's? If we need to receive things from them or indeed they from us for any kind of healing?

Not sure I have any answers lol but I look forward to learning from the different perspectives.

Accountability - Hearing "blame" ...is my #1 trigger.  It took almost 4 years to get the reactivity under control. I heard blame, even when there was none...according to 2 therapists. I was "hearing thru a wound". If he is unable to voice words of accountability, to own his sh*t...how will I ever know ?  My intuition is on shakey ground...he needs to use his big boy words, speak from his heart and tell me who he is . If he is unable to do this...trust will never be restored.

I really really like what Treasur wrote, but this one by barbiedoll touched something very deep.   "Hearing blame" (even when there was necessarily none).... yep, guilty as charged.

It is so easy to look at MLCr and say nothing's happening...  But how much of that is is really coming from our own perception.  From the fact we are hearing through our wounds.  The more I've learned about human psychology, the more I've began to understand how much all of us are prisoners of our own perception.

Just my 2 cents worth of topic I'm just beginning to understand on some very rough level. Ask me again in 3 years time, LOL.

[Father5]

   This is a big one for me. Yes I think words at this point would help but they would have to be genuine and from the heart. I have gone so long with feeling and being treated like I am dog excrement on the bottom of her shoe. That I should just move on and be friends for the kids. Meanwhile she is worth Millions and is asking more than half of what little I do have. If I have $10,000 when this is all said and done I would feel lucky.

 My attorney didn't give me much hope on that front but did in way of the kids and their schedule. She is living a fantasy life that wants a lot of free time, one that I cannot provide with my job. I will have nothing left except my kids I will be starting over like I am 18 only worse as I have some Credit card debt.

  She is far from the woman I know and loved, she would have never done something like this. Would I like a apology hell yes but a meaning less one would make it worse. Would I like any acknowledgement that she FIRETRUCKED UP yes. I haven't yet even been able to look at her in the face let alone a conversation about all of this. I have never been more scared in my life for me and my kids. I cannot stress that enough, I am not sure if I could forgive her even though I would like to think I could I am still not sure. But please acknowledge my existence and the pain you are putting the family through for your own selfish reasons. I was a good and thoughtful hardworking husband and a great father! I don't deserve to be treated this way and left on the lawn still steaming.

[OffRoad]

I think it is true it depends on the MLCer and how they departed (monster? Quietly? Vanished? Always around?) and I would venture it depends on if you had children or furbabies together, too. (I acknowledge that some animals are like children to some people).

Acknowledgement-- This is the most important to me. Acknowledging what he did and that the way it was done was socially unacceptable, morally incorrect and damaging to the kids. This is most important for my children, as it upsets me to no small degree that they think (or at least say) that this was normal and people "just fall out of love", which shows they have zero idea what love really is. Good job, XH.
 
Accountability- No "The devil made me do it" excuses. It doesn't matter if the Devil DID make you do it. When you are accountable for what you have done you make amends no matter the reason.

Acceptance- Knowing he did it, it was part of his life, but not sweeping it under the rug.
 
Apology- This means nothing with the rest and without actions to back it up.

I have to say, I do not understand people who do not want an apology for having been treated poorly. Why do I feel this way? Because while I completely understand a position of "The apology means nothing". I have to disagree with that. It may mean nothing to them, but it might mean something to the person apologizing. I remember a conversation between myself and my XH:
Me: I feel like I've been used up and thrown away. I feel completely abandoned."
Him: "I'm sorry you feel that way."
Me: " No you aren't. You don't care one bit how I feel or you would never  have done this in this way. But thank you for at least saying so."

This exchange means nothing to most of you. Up until then, I wasn't even work speaking to. I was non existent. To me, it wasn't an apology so much as it was him seeing that I was actually a person and he felt he needed to respond in some way. So what I got out of that was that he wasn't (yet)completely lost to the void. Again, If he had been physically violent with me, I wouldn't not have cared. And I think that comes into play as well. No apology would be enough for physical violence. But I guess it's a me thing. I still want to believe that even if I never wanted to have anything to do with my MLCer again, I'd want him to not be screwed up. For the sake of the kids if nothing else. I don't want anyone to be screwed up. So even a half way apology would tell me they feel at least a narcissistic compulsion to behave like a normal human being. That is better than not caring at all, IMO.

My own Pollyanna view.

[Songanddance]

I have to say, I do not understand people who do not want an apology for having been treated poorly. Why do I feel this way? Because while I completely understand a position of "The apology means nothing". I have to disagree with that. It may mean nothing to them, but it might mean something to the person apologizing. I remember a conversation between myself and my XH:
Me: I feel like I've been used up and thrown away. I feel completely abandoned."
Him: "I'm sorry you feel that way."
Me: " No you aren't. You don't care one bit how I feel or you would never  have done this in this way. But thank you for at least saying so."

Thank you OR. I had been taking a break from the forum after an issue arose on my thread and am not fully back but lurking from time to time.

What you say above really resonates with me.  I had been criticised on my thread for stating that I needed a sincere apology in words.  H's love language has always been acts of service and mine words and quality time.  All I had from H was " I'm sorry that you were hurt"   It's too third party, It's too like a cold caller trying to drum up accident claim business. 
I had been told that his actions were enough to show me how sorry he was and that I had to stop needing an apology as we were now reconnecting.   

I want his apology to show his accountabilty and acceptance of what he has done to hurt me and all it needs be is " I'm sorry that I hurt you"    then his actions would have genuine substance.   I discussed this with my sister and she said, as did Barbie " You need to hear those words so that you can complete your healing and move forward"   

The apology not just means something to me but it shows me that it means something to my H and that he truly acknowledges, accept and take accountability for his actions; so far he has done none of that - he has chosen to sweep it under the carpet and try and show through his actions that he might want the marriage. 

I need the words - I need the sincere accountable apology so thanks OR - I was beginning to feel as though apart from Barbie and a couple of others I was being selfish and not reading my own situation properly.

[Treasur]

This is such an interesting thread bc it is validating that, just as our situations are different, we interpret these terms differently and need different things don't we? Which is entirely ok. We may not get what we need but it is entirely ok to say that we need or want it. The fact that others see it differently might make us pause and double-check how we feel and why...but it's part of healing imho to be able to say authentically this is not ok and this is how I feel and what I want.

The tricky bit is in the pragmatic isn't it? I understand the perspective that it is pointless to expect MLC spouses at some stages to do x or y. And that it can hurt to keep trying to get what we want or need from them. But I have always been a bit uncomfortable with too much 'catch the poor broken squirrel' thing too that sometimes can encourage the LBS to trade in their own entirely reasonable feelings and needs in the service of trying to deal with an MLC spouse. And a lot of what we feel we need is entirely reasonable and normal. I guess the other tricky bit is working out how/if you can meet that need if your MLC spouse won't and what the consequences are for the kind of relationship you are prepared to have with them if they don't.

We LBS really wrestle with some big deep stuff usually on our own. That is brave, wise but damn hard work. And sometimes pretty unsatisfying. The bare minimum it should give us I think is the right to say loudly this is how I feel and this is what I need from you. If you can't or won't listen to me or try to do that, I will accept that bc I can't force you and I don't want to force anyone to treat me with respect or empathy....but it will affect how I see you and how much I am prepared to invest in you and what else I do to meet my own needs.

MLC is not normal away from this place. Normal healthy adults place importance on other people's needs and feelings as well as their own. Normal healthy adults who hurt people see that and want to show that they see it, intend to stop behaving that way and apologise as a sign that they intend to do things differently bc they hold themselves accountable for what they do and say. Words alone are not enough - that is usually the kind of shrugged 'sorry it happened' apology that S&D mentioned - but words are often part of how they hurt us, either spewing them or withholding them, so it makes sense to me that words may also be a way to see that someone now feels that the other person matters and that what they did was wrong. It really isn't our job as LBS to mind read or infer or excuse it for them is it? We have all spent too much time mind reading and guessing   

I read an article recently...a tough one to reflect on actually but a realistic one I think...that talks about the cost of forgiveness by the LBS. https://www.affairrecovery.com/newsletter/founder/cost-of-forgiving-infidelity although not in an MLC context.

We all know the argument about forgiveness being for oneself, a choice to not be rewritten by pain or by being a victim. Which is true I think...but not the whole truth. Choosing to forgive, and particularly for anyone in an ongoing relationship with their MLCer, also means swallowing down some things that we don't like and never thought we would have to do. Including perhaps some of our own values and beliefs and needs.  And it often feels like - at best - we're doing the 80 to the MLCers 20  . They may feel they had 'no choice' or were ill etc....but if you hurt me and never own that bc it is too 'hard', then why would I have any confidence that you won't just do it again the next time you feel like it? The tough truth behind MLC is that our spouses decide that they are content for anyone else to pay any price at all really as long as they get what they want.....if they never do any of these 4As, surely the mindset is just the same but maybe all that has changed is what they want.

 I'm not talking about being vengeful or bitter...there is something real about creating ones own poison...but if an MLCer won't challenge their emotional comfort zone to do any of these 4As, why should they (or others, or us) expect or assume that we will continue to challenge our own emotional comfort zone to pay those costs? And often without even that being acknowledged or apparently appreciated.

In my case, from what I see, I have no expectation of my xh ever doing any of these things. So my only choice is to meet them in a different way or live around them being unmet. But it doesn't invalidate that it is entirely reasonable that I should need and want these things as part of my own healing. Or that my judgment is that any MLCer who is unwilling or unable to do these things with both words and actions - including my xh - continues to be far from a healthy healed adult so they will have to live with the cost of that too. That is sad to me, not what I would have wanted for either of us, but seems an inevitable bit of sowing and reaping.

It has always seemed to me that one of the biggest markers of a 'cooked' MLCer is about the Me Me Me factor. If they can't or won't do any of the 4As or understand why you need them, it is just more Me Me Me imho.

[Thunder]

Treasur,

You are so right!  We all have the right to voice what we need or don't need from them, and it will be different for each of us.  Because we are different people, with different needs and each MLCer and situation is different.

It is important that we support what ever each of us needs to heal.

[Anjae]

I have to say, I do not understand people who do not want an apology for having been treated poorly. Why do I feel this way? Because while I completely understand a position of "The apology means nothing". I have to disagree with that. It may mean
nothing to them, but it might mean something to the person apologizing. ...


I still want to believe that even if I never wanted to have anything to do with my MLCer again, I'd want him to not be screwed up. For the sake of the kids if nothing else. I don't want anyone to be screwed up. So even a half way apology would tell me they feel at least a narcissistic compulsion to behave like a normal human being. That is better than not caring at all, IMO.

I'm wondering what not wanting/need a verbal apology as to do with not wanting the MLCer to be well. I want Mr J, and all MLCers, to be well. I don't need a I'm sorry. At this point it is irrelevant. Let alone if it is all I will get.

As for his possible need of apologizing, well, he can e-mail me. Or call me. But if his need, as has happened several times in the past, is reduced to "I'm sorry, it is all my fault", thanks, but not thanks. Actions firts, please.

Long ago, early 2008, Mr J wanted to come by and apologize in person for all he had done. By then he had already done quite a lot, but not as much as he has been doing since - there had be no courts cases, for example.

I end up saying no, don't come. Saying you're sorry while you carry on doing the same stuff, makes no sense. He agreed it didn't.

I'm certain saying "I'm sorry" is not that hard for Mr J. I have heard it many times in the past. What is very, very hard for him is to change, to do what has to be done in actions. "I'm sorry" is too easy for him and what he thinks is enough. All he thinks it takes, in fact.

I want his apology to show his accountabilty and acceptance of what he has done to hurt me and all it needs be is " I'm sorry that I hurt you" then his actions would have genuine substance. 

I want all the money I'm owned, my belongings, monster to go away and be treated with respect. For me it is irrelevant  if Mr J's actions have, or don't have real substance. I just want what is mine.

You guys need to understad it has been 13 years since Mr J left, what type of MLCer he has been and what type of person I am.

This is such an interesting thread bc it is validating that, just as our situations are different, we interpret these terms differently and need different things don't we? Which is entirely ok.

Yes, since our situations are different, we are different, out time since BD is different, we need different things. It is OK.

Where I can see a potential problem between LBS and MLCer is when the LBS needs one thing (ot things), but the MLCer is not able to do it. Like with Barbie and Song that a need a verbal "I'm sorry I hurt you", but their husband don't seem to be capable of.

It has always seemed to me that one of the biggest markers of a 'cooked' MLCer is about the Me Me Me factor. If they can't or won't do any of the 4As or understand why you need them, it is just more Me Me Me imho.

Indeed.

.. .but if an MLCer won't challenge their emotional comfort zone to do any of these 4As, why should they (or others, or us) expect or assume that we will continue to challenge our own emotional comfort zone to pay those costs? And often without even that being acknowledged or apparently appreciated.

Good question. I don't think we should continue to challange/spend/waste our emotional comfort zone to pay such costs. It is a too great emotional, even physical, cost to deal with Mr J in any way. Let alone think of reconciling with him. I don't need that.

[Treasur]

Imho this https://s3.amazonaws.com/media.affairrecovery.com/The-Shocking-Truth-About-Trust-eBook-2017.pdf is one of the clearest most practical things I have ever read about some of what the LBS needs and how to approach it, either as part of a door to reconciliation or as a reason to not do that or as a way to heal solo.

The big takeaway for me was about Safety as a pre-requisite. Made HUGE sense to me and tbh explained why I have made some of the choices I have even if I couldn't quite understand why. For reasons I can only guess at, my h acted consistently from early 2016 as if my thoughts, feelings and even my life were irrelevant to him. And he did that when I was already vulnerable bc I was bereaved and then later seriously ill. Same old, same old that so many of us experience. I'm not sure I was even a chair like Acorn. . I'd had no reason before then, not once, to feel unsafe with my h...but then I did in almost every way possible as a human being. It was about way more than an affair or his wish to leave me, way more.

A friend asked me recently...as friends sometimes do (and partly too bc she occasionally peeks at his online life and is recently seeing some things that suggest his/ow's life is not going so well - but she respects my wish to not know about it)....what I would do if he reached out wanting to talk. And I'd felt that my instinct was to say 'no thank you' but couldn't put my finger on why.

But now I get it....my xh is not safe for me to even talk to bc to date he has done nothing to show that he considers my thoughts, feelings or continued breathing as being something that matters to him now. Hence why for me that Acknowledgement and Accountability thing would be so important...bc I would never feel safe to expose any part of myself, even in a small way, without believing that he saw me as a person and wanted to stop hurting me. That I was safe at all. I chose NC because I believed the exact opposite.

One of those funny things that is complicated but also very simple. Safety.
And how we create it for ourselves as part of our own recovery. Duh. 

[Songanddance]

It has always seemed to me that one of the biggest markers of a 'cooked' MLCer is about the Me Me Me factor. If they can't or won't do any of the 4As or understand why you need them, it is just more Me Me Me imho.

Yep - so true and that's the conclusion I came to about my H because most of his recent actions have been about him and not the family or the house.   He even proudly showed me a framed photo of himself with his bike (one of his MLC toys) and asked where he could hang it up. Seriously H???
I bit my lip!  Interesting when he stated that he couldn't possibly put up the most gorgeous picture of our GD recently because the stone walls were too difficult to drill into for a hook.
Nope he's still cooking but I think he will be on simmer for a long, long, long Rumpelstiltskin time!

[Anjae]

Safety is paramount. I love that there are more than 300km between Mr J and I and that he cannnot come by.

I still remember how messed up and unsafe it was early on, when I was still in our flat, and he could around. It is true I was the one letting him in, but there neither peace nor safety - he was only physically abusive after he left.


He can e-mail, text or call me if he wants to. He can send a letter. Of all those, I prefer e-mail (or letter, if that is still a thing). It is less in your face, it does not involve have to directly speak with Mr J.

At times (once, twice a year, some years not at all) I call him becuase of something legal or business. Sometimes it goes OK, sometimes there is big monster. Back in 2012 we had a very, very long phone talk. He even called back to carry on talking. It is documented in one of my old threads. That talk lasted more than one hour, close to two hours.

I do not know why that one time it was possible to talk so much and so well (no monster, Mr J was very kind and understanding). Right now I don't think I want to have another of those talks. Lots more crazy stuff has happened since then, albeit less totally crazy that up to that point.

I am also far less interested and far more tired of all the MLC stuff. Come, I got big bad, super nasty monster by e-mail last February.  Who wants to deal, or risk getting, big bad, super nasty monster nearly 13 years down the road? No one?

There has been brief moments, during which Mr J considered my feelings, thoughs and even needs. Only to quickly disconsider the former two and never follow through with the third (I am talking in practical, not emotional terms about needs).

For some reason(s), here and there, the old person does show. Too elusive, too quickly go back to the MLC one to be taken seriously or to stop being considered an emotional and well-being safety hazard.

Mr J is aware, at least when he remembers it, I consider him dangerous to my safety in every way and why.

[rubyhearted]

Wow is it good to be back to such interesting discussions. It was important for me to let go for a bit to find my own footing outside of MLC. The TNG brought me back but in a very different space.

I am seeing things through a different lens after a lot of tears, false dreams, therapy, and owning my own FOO issues. I blame his MLC for his stuff. That does not excuse my reactions. Although, with him in Monster it brought out the worst in me. That did not drive him away, nor did it hasten the inevitable. Only that I wish I had handled things differently. I wish that I had simply found this forum and turned my back rather than waiting for him to kick me to the curb.

Which brings me to this thread. H came to me a week ago with the 4As. Or so he thought and so did I. In considering the three days that we talked I realized that he is still in the tunnel. He is seeing a therapist of his own and dealing with undiagnosed ADHD from childhood. But in really listening what I did not hear was honest accountability. It was all about him and how he is being victimized now. His choices are his choices and he cannot see that.

In reading this entire thread and really digging deep over the past few days I have realized that the words are less important to me. What I really need is closure. I am not sure that I will get that after so much time together. I can walk away, head held high, but is that closure? Probably not. The words do not help. The fact that we are years from BD and no contact or whatever situation we are in it is all the same. We cannot get closure because there is too much love remaining. How do you close that door? Even if we remarry how do we close the door once and for all? We cannot purge our minds of what was no matter how we try. And I have tried. I have tried reframing, turning the other way (literally) or crying, writing, being here.

GtG. I have to pick up one of my kids from work. More on this later. Hugs!

[barbiedoll]

I had been told that his actions were enough to show me how sorry he was and that I had to stop needing an apology as we were now reconnecting.   

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WTF?  If this was ever said to me , I am certain spit and fire would come out my eyes! HOW DARE SOMEONE?. Honestly, I just cannot even imagine. I deserve, I am entitled to and I expect a profound, meaningful and sincere apology . More than once. I want to feel and see and be convinced that there is deep understanding and remorse for what has happened to me and my daughters. I want my daughters to receive an apology .  I want to believe there is some emotional depth and intelligence and recognition of the trauma inflicted on people you claim to love. Words matter. Sharing your emotions, intentions, sorrow and regret with words matter .

I want his apology to show his accountabilty and acceptance of what he has done to hurt me and all it needs be is " I'm sorry that I hurt you"    then his actions would have genuine substance.   I discussed this with my sister and she said, as did Barbie " You need to hear those words so that you can complete your healing and move forward"   

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I agree 100%. I needed "words" before I would EVER even risk allowing him back into our home, taking a chance on him or waiting around to see what he will "do". He had ALOT of talking and 'splaining to do before his wardrobe hung back up in the closet . Why is this hard to understand?  Do some LBS actually allow their spouses to return in silence?   He just walks back in and nothing is said??  For real   . I understand there is a huge difference ( in my opinion) between MLC's that leave and those that stay home. My husband left . The locks were changed . His sh%t was packed in the garage. The marriage was over . ….my choice at that point. He could NEVER return without convincing me he was worth the risk ...no easy task. Now his actions better back up his words 200%.

tricky bit is working out how/if you can meet that need if your MLC spouse won't and what the consequences are for the
 kind of relationship you are prepared to have with them if they don't.

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There will be no relationship , no reconnecting ....nothing. Of that I am 100% confident.

The bare minimum it should give us I think is the right to say loudly this is how I feel and this is what I need from you. If you can't or won't listen to me or try to do that, I will accept that bc I can't force you and I don't want to force anyone to treat me with respect or empathy....but it will affect how I see you and how much I am prepared to invest in you and what else I do to meet my own needs.

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I guess it kinda makes me think of "you teach someone how to treat you ".  If my husband "can't  /  won't " ....I simply will NOT accept that . He would not be back in this house. Truth.

tc....but if you hurt me and never own that bc it is too 'hard', then why would I have any confidence that you won't just do it again the next time you feel like it?

Exactly right ! . I agree.

Or that my judgment is that any MLCer who is unwilling or unable to do these things with both words and actions - including my xh - continues to be far from a healthy healed adult so they will have to live with the cost of that too. That is sad to me, not what I would have wanted for either of us, but seems an inevitable bit of sowing and reaping.

This makes sense to me .  "unwilling or unable " is interesting. A therapist told us that some people need to be taught how to genuineley  apologize, it does not come naturally.  He willingly participated in being "coached" by the therapist thru an apology and how to exxpress his pain for what he had done. Had he refused ?  Sowing and reaping...as they say .

If they can't or won't do any of the 4As or understand why you need them, it is just more Me Me Me imho.

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Absolutely !  I could not agree more . And I watched for this . If it is evident that it is still all about them...not about "us" or family...or ME , I do not want him. Period. And he was fully aware of every thought that I had .

Where I can see a potential problem between LBS and MLCer is when the LBS needs one thing (ot things), but the MLCer is not able to do it. Like with Barbie and Song that a need a verbal "I'm sorry I hurt you", but their husband don't seem to be capable of.

My husband has said he is sorry many many times, verbally and in writing . ( I wrote that in my last post) . It took me a long time to believe him, to "feel" any emotion, to have it hit my heart. He has repeatedly apologized and owned the pain he created. My lack of trust and utter rage could not absorb it and find meaning in it . I cannot speck for Song but she has clearly stated her issue.

but if an MLCer won't challenge their emotional comfort zone to do any of these 4As, why should they (or others, or us) expect or assume that we will continue to challenge our own emotional comfort zone to pay those costs? And often without even that being acknowledged or apparently appreciated.

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Firetruck...this is just so brilliant! I love this .  Indeed, the cost to be paid will not be by me. I have paid dearly in so many ways. Not by me. If he truly , with sorrow and regret , genuinely wants his marriage , he has to prove that . No easy task considering all trust in him is gone. It will take repeated conversations ( excruciating suck your soul out conversations), "learning" how to do these things, understanding what they mean and why, putting someone else ahead of yourself , taking emotional risks , sitting in extremely uncomfortable emotional places, etc etc . If he cannot or will not, and thinks this will be acceptable...the cost will be his .

I NEVER once said actions take a back seat or are less important . If his actions ( repeated over and over and over) do not match his words ... all is over. My husband has not had an easy time "fixing" his life, his marriage, his daughters. I believe I worked extremely hard for atleast 2 years subconsciously pushing pushing and shoving him away...testing him, hating him, raging at him and shaming him. Somehow, he withstood every sh*t-scenario you can ever imagine and is still here . He says he is not going anywhere ever again....I suspiciously believe him.

[Songanddance]

I understand there is a huge difference ( in my opinion) between MLC's that leave and those that stay home. My husband left . The locks were changed . His sh%t was packed in the garage. The marriage was over . ….my choice at that point.

As you know my H never left.  I was not given the choice to pack his bags or allow him back in.  That's tough and so yes I think he believes that if he just behaves well and is considerate I will think he wants back in and I will accept it.

Don't get me wrong, I am glad of the actions and things he has done on the house - he didn't need or have to do them but when in hindsight it has become clear that the behaviour/ or job/action always precipitates a potentially selfish follow up that suits only him. then I'm not convinced that our marriage means anything to him. It really is still all about him.

For example - he refurbished the kitchen (we both did) but he paid for it. It was essential that it was done as for 13 of the last 15 years the damp on the walls was horrendous making all crockery, cutlery etc mouldy and the smell behind some cupboards was uurgh! So he ripped it out, rebuilt the walls, inside and out and produced a new shiny kitchen which is just lovely.  However that was a year ago and since then he's taken himself to the states, he's bought another newer car, he's been on adventures with other people and all without telling me in advance... 
These are not the actions of a man in remorse and wanting a marriage- these are the actions of a guilty person trying to avoid the truth of what he has done. These are the actions of a child who wants to be rewarded for good behaviour so that they can play up again in future. 

[Anjae]

I think there may be some confusion here regarding not needing words, but actions.

I don't have a returning MLCer nor am I planning to reconciled. Therefore, currently, words aren't of much, if any, need to me.

Were Mr J to want back and I to accept it, there may be the need for some words. However, at this point, less than a month to 13 years since he left, there aren't many, if any, words that would be particularly useful.

What is he going to say? That he is sorry. I'm certain his out of Replay self will be.

There is a world of difference in everything between a MLCer that has been away for 6 months like your husband did Barbie, and one that has been away for years, at times a decade or more, including years on end living with OW/OM.

[barbiedoll]

Anjae you are perfectly correct

There is a world of difference in everything between a MLCer that has been away for 6 months like your husband did Barbie, and one that has been away for years, at times a decade or more, including years on end living with OW/OM.

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If my husband had stayed away 8, 10, 12 or 13 years....there would be NOTHING he could say that I would ever want to hear. Period. We would be almost strangers . I would have no reason ( in my opinion) to listen, expect or even want anything from him. Too much time has passed indeed for any words to "fix" anything.

Song

Your life and mine are similar in many ways ...right down to the shiny new kitchen (which is gorgeous by the way ). So is my new laundry room and deck and sewing room. My husband has "actions" down to a brilliant fine art...always has. Actions are his way of saying that he cares and loves me . And I adore that quality and all of the lovely things he "does"....who would not like that ? . I think he was gobsmacked to have to face the fact that this will never be enough in this part of our marriage. I am no longer going to be his "interpretor" …. I am unable/unwilling to translate his actions ( bought me a new car) into silent words ( this must mean he loves me ). Keep your new car and learn to talk to me . Learn to share, be vulnerable, tell me how you feel, when you are unhappy, when you are stressed etc etc . I think there has been lots of that in my marriage and look what can happen. He was "unhappy, depressed, stressed " and NEVER SAID A WORD. I will never put myself in that corner again...

The difference between you and me Song ...and I mean this in the most respectful way....is I would never remain silent if my husband "went to the states, bought a car or went away on adventures "  all WITHOUT TELLING ME??.  Never again will I allow disrespect from my husband and that is precisely what that is . That is the actions of a married man acting single. I would ( and have) called my husband out on any behavior that disregards me …. I guess those are "triggers" when you have been abandoned ...it felt absolute disregard, disrespect, pure extreme selfishness . They are in fact triggers, now that I see it in writing. The fact is ...for me …. I didn't want the marriage initially so I just was not willing to be quiet period . Bottom line Song...I was a nasty enraged bit$ch with no ability to be quiet . You seem patient, logical, far more self-control (FAR!) and practical..things I am working on for myself. I am high-strung, extremely reactive, black and white thinker, masterfully verbal and take no hostages ( especially if triggered ).  As a result, I apologize a lot, take back words I said and spend time cleaning up the messes I make. There is no "perfect" way ...BUT, for me , I will not be disrespected, silent or disregarded . Now if I could deliver that in a calm , clear, low volume voice as many times as required....I would have reached 1 of my goals. !

[Anjae]

Anjae you are perfectly correct
....

If my husband had stayed away 8, 10, 12 or 13 years....there would be NOTHING he could say that I would ever want to hear. Period. We would be almost strangers . I would have no reason ( in my opinion) to listen, expect or even want anything from him. Too much time has passed indeed for any words to "fix" anything.

Thank you, Barbie.

It really is very different and our situations do not compare for the mentioned reasons.

Many here have MLCers that are gone for years. Things truly are on another level and that is why, the many years away, often living, if not married, to OW/OM, I think there are so few reconciliations.

For many Replay takes years and years, life goes on, LBS often finds a new person, MLCer and LBS are almost strangers. Even if they aren't, it is super difficult.

It is already very difficult with a live-in MLCer or one that has only been gone for a while. The longer the MLCer is away, the difficult everything - maybe aside for the need of words - will be reconnection/reconciliation wise for most of us.

[Treasur]

Never been too fond of that 'LBS has the final choice' saying bc it never felt like reality to me.

But I do think that to heal on your own from something so life-altering and painful, or with not much input from a spouse, the LBS often needs to find a way to tackle some of these 4As. Doing that may draw us to a point when we can simply no longer bridge the gap between their current reality and our own in a reconnection situation. What they can offer is just no longer enough for who we have chosen to become.

[Songanddance]

and I mean this in the most respectful way....is I would never remain silent if my husband "went to the states, bought a car or went away on adventures "  all WITHOUT TELLING ME??.  Never again will I allow disrespect from my husband and that is precisely what that is . That is the actions of a married man acting single

Agree -but please note that in my post above, I didn't report what I said to him, neither did I say that I accepted it. 
I  told him re the new car that I didn't appreciate him doing this without letting me know, but it is his company money and it is for tax purposes ( In fact, as I reflect back, H's MO has always been to buy things for himself or family members without consultation or reference to me but only with his money.   
For most of our married life, I was earning more than H and so it was never an issue and he never defaulted (not even in the height of MLC) on making sure he paid his share of the bills into our joint account. Even when I quit work 3yrs ago due to intense stress, he paid for everything for the first year and now I am working a little, he pays over 80% of the household bills. He has also supported  me in setting out my own businesses.

When I am truly angry, I go quiet and withdrawn and usually stare him out,and then when I find the words, say them and walk away.  I have done this quite a bit recently and the difference now is that instead of monster, I have had a quiet acknowledgement and then endless explanations, like a child would to justify his actions. I just walk away.

Do not think that I am happy with him not telling me,  but I am able to show my anger and displeasure in other ways and he knows.

But as I said above he is still cooking and I do not believe that an apology and sincere wish to work on the marriage is forthcoming any time soon. So, at this moment in time, being overtly angry with him for his purchases and trips is almost pointless waste of my energy so I keep any comments simple, clear and move forward.

[OffRoad]

S&D, it sounds like you use for your H my same go to for most things. Examples: "That was inappropriate.", "I realize that you used company money for the car, however what you do affects me and I would appreciate it if you would discuss these things with me before purchasing." "It hurts my feelings when you go off on a trip without letting me know."

I say what the issue is without anger, and indicate how it affects me. Then I can know from the response if the person intended to be a jerk, knew he was being a jerk and tried to "hide" it, or was completely clueless and stuck in their own world. (I find a lot of completely clueless people)

If you dont mind my asking, how does that works with your H? Does he then sometimes remember to include you in, or still does what he wants?

[barbiedoll]

I do agree that clearly calmly stating the issue and the way it affairs us is the best approach. Daily I work on this .  I still struggle with entente frustration and reactivity .. it has caused further problems.  My work is not done. With me.

[Anjae]

Never been too fond of that 'LBS has the final choice' saying bc it never felt like reality to me.

The final choice of the LBS is regarding reconnection/reconciliation. It does not aplly while the MLCer is in Replay. Or rather, it does if the LBS decides they do not wish to reconnect and/or reconcile. Reconnect and reconcile are different things. The first if possible without the second.

There is nothing a MLCer can do if the LBS does not want to reconnect or reconcile, even if the MLCer wants to.

But I do think that to heal on your own from something so life-altering and painful, or with not much input from a spouse, the LBS often needs to find a way to tackle some of these 4As.

The spouse does not tend to be available during the time we are doing our healing, so we do tend to find our way to the 4As.

Doing that may draw us to a point when we can simply no longer bridge the gap between their current reality and our own in a reconnection situation.

It may. Or it may not. Interestingly, I think the gap between Mr J and I has shorten. I am talking about interest, since nothing else is possible to access. After grandmother's death I got more and more back into my main interest when we meet, and Mr J has been overlaping his MLC musical and cultural interests with some of his pre-MLC ones.

Is isn't much? It isn't, but it was the way things start for us. We become a couple because of mutual interests.

What they can offer is just no longer enough for who we have chosen to become.

A very big and real possibility. I have no way of knowing what after crisis Mr J could have to offer, would, or would not, do. I know his pre-MLC self alone is no longer enough. Among other things, he would need to rise to my level of growth. Is such thing possible? I have no idea.