[palladian]

It is hard to write this down, my LBS journey just started, up to now it follows the manual almost to the book, BD is just two months ago.
Married for almost 9, together for 9 more, one daughter of 8. I want to share my perspective on what is happening, to call for compassion to our MLCs in all the hurt we experience and ask for your advice.

This is her and my story...

Both being neglected in our childhood, taking quite some trauma, we ended up an a codependent marriage with several attachment issues. She always struggled with who she was, her work and the money that came along with it. I guess to a lesser extent, the same holds for me. We had conquered hell together, from both of my parents who died in 6 months, reconciling with her runaway dad, processing a major business failure. It felt like we were invincible together. I was wrong.

Her MLC started without me noticing, probably over a year ago when she was redrawing by playing computer games and needing daily 'me' time. In november, the realization her sister who is a terminal cancer patient was going to die later this year has probably sparked the crisis.
Early this year she announced she fell in love with OM she met at work, gave me the "I love you but not like a husband any more" speech and announced divorce 7 days later, trying to arrange all practical and legal aspects of our marriage (trying to coerce me into agreeing with  a divorce agreement) in 3 weeks, without even opening up for a real talk with me. Probably the most hurtful thing someone did in my life. I told her, I didn't up to that moment, I fell in love 4 years earlier so I understood how she felt, although my choices were a step towards our marriage (didn't act on it, and worked covertly on our relationship instead).

She left our house one week ago, is suffering in ways I cannot imagine and is all over the place. Even after just one week out of our house she is backtracking a bit already: I went for a walk with her to discuss 'us' and practicals as she had refused the legal agreement she pushed for because financially she didn't like it. The moment she saw me she started crying. She told me she was confused, was emotionally at her end and said that she did not see how our marriage could be restored but seemed to open up for the possibility of that scenario. She didn't want to sell the house any more "not to take any harsh irreversible decisions" We had a walk and a 2 hour talk, the first one in our lives, which felt genuine. She told me (didn't ask) the affair she had was confusing. She knew she was hurting everyone around her. She said she missed our conversations, I felt like family and she was happy to see me and told me I could reach out if I wanted to go for another walk.

I know the current advice is to take distance and GAL (which I'm trying to do to the best of my efforts, going out, seeing a psychologist, adding new routines to life), but the speed in which things are changing from BD, moving out to 'first doubt' in just 2 months, seems wrong. Especially since - and this will sound crazy - I get that she feels so bad, that an affair feels like the solution. To be clear, I'm not ok with it, but in a f***** up way, I do understand it, I feel bad for her.

So, here I am, not knowing what to do. Do I distance or do I engage (e.g. to go for a walk in 4 weeks or so to hear how she is doing). I see her every week as well, when we bring the stuff for our daughter to each other's place, so that makes it extra hard.

My 'ideal' scenario is that we rebuild ourselves, if feasible together, so we can start a new chapter in our journey. I know I cannot hope, but the heart wants what the heart wants I guess. 

Any perspectives or experiences on this 'traumatic rocket MLC process' and how to handle it would be very welcomed.

[Treasur]

I am very sorry that you have to find yourself here, Palladian, but glad you found us so early and found the courage to share this awful situation with a bunch of strangers.

Nothing about this situation will feel ‘right’ to you perhaps for quite a long time. And early on, our normal and natural instinct is to step towards someone we love who seems to be unravelling in front of our eyes. Which means that a lot of the hard-earned advice here probably feels counter-intuitive. Almost like writing with your left hand if you are right-handed.

We get that. We have all been there.
Which means we may have a perspective that you do not at the moment, but it also means we will respect your choices as you move forward even if you do not want to follow our advice lol.

The most important thing I want to say to you is that you will find your own way through this to the other side. It may not feel like that now and you may not be able to see what it looks like, and indeed HS people create different paths forward, but it will not always be the way it is right now. I don’t know what will happen to your wife or your marriage, but I know that there is something worth having on the other side of this.

I know the current advice is to take distance and GAL (which I'm trying to do to the best of my efforts, going out, seeing a psychologist, adding new routines to life),

Well, you are doing well so far.  these things matter bc, regardless of what happens in the future, your life has just been turned upside down. The impact of that can have a big effect on our physical and emotional health, although sometimes we are so concerned about our spouse that we forget to be concerned about ourselves as much. Basic self care - eating, sleeping, exercise, doing things that make you feel just a little bit more normal and a little bit better in yourself - matters. And a decent IC can allow us to feel heard and supported when our spouse is doing neither and folks in RL may simply not be able to understand our reality. So, well done, you 

but the speed in which things are changing from BD, moving out to 'first doubt' in just 2 months, seems wrong.

yup, that sounds very hard, a real rollercoaster. And it knocks us off balance doesn’t It? It takes a little while to adjust our lens from the old ‘normal’ to the reality of a new ‘not very normal’ that we don’t like, want or understand.

Especially since - and this will sound crazy - I get that she feels so bad, that an affair feels like the solution. To be clear, I'm not ok with it, but in a f***** up way, I do understand it, I feel bad for her.

Well, if you think there was some emotional co-dependency between you bc of your mutual FOO baggage, that makes sense. I think all LBS operate under a bit of a pendulum effect for quite a while until we find a place that feels more fitting to us and the situation. Most of us start by being much more concerned and empathetic towards our MLC spouse....then we tend to swing to the opposite end of emotions bc of the damage their actions cause and bc they often seem to have little concern for us or our kids.....and then, with time, we seem to swing back to a place somewhere closer to the middle. You will find your own place as time and events unfold.

So, here I am, not knowing what to do. Do I distance or do I engage (e.g. to go for a walk in 4 weeks or so to hear how she is doing). I see her every week as well, when we bring the stuff for our daughter to each other's place, so that makes it extra hard.

Fwiw - and others will come along to support you with their advice too - there are a couple of mindset shifts that all of us have to go through but struggle with . These will help you answer your own question, usually with a bit of trial and error involved 

The first is that if your wife is in crisis, nothing much you do will make any constructive difference at all to her path or behaviour. You did not cause it, you can’t control it and you can’t protect her from the consequences of her own actions. You can’t nice her back, you can’t rescue her, you can’t influence how she thinks or feels or what she does. That’s a very hard thing to process after years of a shared life isn’t it? Most of us start trying and then slowly stop bc we experience the futility of it and hitting your head against a brick wall hurts after a while  and tbh trying to understand the (to us) inexplicable or ride the rollercoaster of someone else’s extreme emotional shifts is exhausting and can be a bit crazy-making. You don’t have to behave like a vindictive a$$hat, that’s true, but eventually you will be forced to accept the very real limits of your influence or control. Which is hard so i’m sorry. The good news is that it will feel easier when you climb off her rollercoaster  ....tbh you will be busy enough dealing with your own 

The second is that going slower that it feels you should is often a helpful thing. Your nervous system is sending lots of signals now about action....if you do this, it will fix it or if you avoid doing this, it will fix it. All normal. That’s the lovely little bit of your reptilian brain trying to keep you and your family safe. Unfortunately, we don’t always do our best work when our inner lizard is in charge  We tend to flail around a bit, react rather than take a breath and respond. Your power and control over your own life and the wellbeing of your daughter normally lies in that space between stimulus and response. So we talk here about the Rule of 3 in decision-making and interaction with an MLC spouse.....teach yourself to go a little slower than feels right unless you or your daughter are in immediate risk.  So, for instance, bc you have a child, bc your wife has moved out, bc divorce has been mentioned, it would be wise to seek legal advice about your situation. But that does not mean you have to rush to act on it unless the legal advice is that you must.

The third shift in mindset is imho rebalancing the order of priority in your head and therefore in your choices about what you do or don’t do. This does not mean you have to stop caring about your wife, or even loving her. It just means that you have to care more about what happens to you and your daughter. You have to put YOU first bc your wife will not (or is unable to if you use an MLC lens)....these folks can be staggeringly self-absorbed and remarkably indifferent to anyone’s else’s needs or feelings....so your job is to make sure that anything you do starts with thinking FIRST if it serves you and/or your daughter best. Or indeed if it damages you. Your wife needs to come - at best- no more than third on your list of people to be considered. That’s going to probably feel very strange, quite wrong and even a bit selfish after a long marriage....but you are the cornerstone now of you and your daughter’s future wellbeing. Expecting an MLCer to do it is like expecting a cat to bark 

I hope some bit of my thoughts are helpful. If not, please feel free to bin them lo..
Regardless, we are here to support you as you plot your own path.

[Pacman]

Sorry you are here but there are some great people here with great advice.
Listen, read, vent .
And then go back to do it again.
I'm 8 months in and never thought I'd be saying this but it is not our problem.
The advice to detach is the most crucial.

I know it's hard but you will get there.
Believe in yourself!

[Thunder]

Welcome palladian,

You have already gotten some good advice I just wanted to say, please talk with a lawyer to get advice.  Just so you know where you stand if she does file.  Don't do it on your own.
Also don't make this easy for her.  Too many of us have done that.
If she wants a divorce let her do all the work.  No helping her, just protect yourself.
This is her divorce, not yours.  Sometimes they talk big but they don't have the energy to go through with it.  I wouldn't even discuss divorce with her.

If she brings it up you could just say..."I don't want a divorce, but I can't stop you if you do."

Keep an eye on your finances too.  These MLCer's can do some crazy things you'd never expect them to do.

I also wanted to add I think what you are hearing is guilt, not real remorse.
She telling you she feels bad she knows she is hurting everyone.  So wouldn't any rational person stop doing what they are doing?

You have a ways to go Pal, just try to stay calm and do not let her rush you.
I would also stop having relationship talks with her, they will get you no where.
But always be kind when you talk to her.  It sounds like you already are, good for you.

If she wants to go on walks. let her ask you.  Just keep in mind she believes she is in love with another man.  So you aren't going to change her mind.  She has to figure this one out for herself.

How is your daughter dealing with all this?

[palladian]

First of all thank you Thunder, Pacman and Treasur for listening and your advice, it is really valuable to just share this. The good thing about experiencing past sh** is that I do have a resilience in me which I can build on, I also exercise daily since the entire episode. I struggle though with the daily routine, I was never truly involved in household planning and managing a kid which is not the easiest in town (love her to bits though)  is tough. So that will be my first GAL goal, mastering that. Financially, I was lucky enough for my family to buy me time, so I have about 6 months of living costs in savings, and I still work my own business, so that gives me some financial breathing room.

You have already gotten some good advice I just wanted to say, please talk with a lawyer to get advice.  Just so you know where you stand if she does file.  Don't do it on your own.

I already talked to two lawyers and financially she can do a lot of damage, that was one of the reasons why I went out for a walk with her yesterday to hear her perspective and avoid any legal proceedings (an amicable agreement would be best for me). She is a legal scholar, so am I, so that adds some spice to the story I suppose.

If she wants to go on walks. let her ask you.  Just keep in mind she believes she is in love with another man.  So you aren't going to change her mind.  She has to figure this one out for herself.

That is exactly what I told her yesterday: her words say I want you in my life, her actions say something else, I asked her how she could explain that. She obviously couldn't and started saying she was confused. I also explained how I felt and I could relate to falling in love with someone and how I handled it, I think her basic fear response is to run away, while mine is to fight I suppose. I also told her she will have to choose what she finds important: being in love or love, the nice feeling or the stepping towards the pain and trying to clean up this mess. She renamed love as 'warmth' and I guess since she never experienced it in her childhood, she cannot really relate. She was delusional about the type of relation we could have 'post crisis' but at the same time explained things about her self which she never shared. It felt like relation therapy in a way, also valuable for me, just to express learnings to her, so in doubt regarding those walks.

How is your daughter dealing with all this?

I learnt yesterday my wife hit my daughter because of exasperation (we agreed to never do that). I don't know yet how to navigate that, I first want to see her. In a way I am glad my wife told me, it means she trusts me regarding the kid and she expressed a lot of shame, and even though I find it appalling, for now if it doesn't turn into a pattern, I tend to let it slip on her end and work with my kid to comfort her and explain about why her mommy did that. In general though my kid is handling it badly, she behaves destructively and crashed last week asking me "what is wrong with me". Am going to manage this with school and a child psychologist.

Nothing about this situation will feel ‘right’ to you perhaps for quite a long time. And early on, our normal and natural instinct is to step towards someone we love who seems to be unravelling in front of our eyes. Which means that a lot of the hard-earned advice here probably feels counter-intuitive. Almost like writing with your left hand if you are right-handed.

I get what you are saying, and in 99.9% of the cases I would say you are right and would have distanced, however she is an avoidant, meaning she will not engage even if she is sorry / feels bad and I was surprised by the openness and 'truth' she spoke yesterday. So that's what makes me doubt.

I hope some bit of my thoughts are helpful. If not, please feel free to bin them lo..
Regardless, we are here to support you as you plot your own path.

They definitely were, thank you and I appreciate the support and feedback.

[Thunder]

Palladian I'm glad you will have your daughter talk to a child psychologist.  That's a great idea.

Sometimes kids act out when their so young because they are confused, mad or afraid.
Or they possibly think the situation is their fault and think there is something wrong with them.

But I'm sure you know all this.     A professional just knows how to deal with these issues and gets the children talking about their feelings in a safe environment.

I'm also glad you talked to a few lawyers.  Sorry if I missed that.

[Treasur]

I get what you are saying, and in 99.9% of the cases I would say you are right and would have distanced, however she is an avoidant, meaning she will not engage even if she is sorry / feels bad and I was surprised by the openness and 'truth' she spoke yesterday. So that's what makes me doubt.

Most MLC folks are. It is why they run literally and metaphorically, isn’t it? MLCers are rather infamous for not using their grown up words as a first choice in problem-solving 

You will decide for yourself, based on your own experience, the value (or not) of engaging with her or indeed the extent to which her words and actions align or how much/often what she says ‘openly’  on Tuesday holds water on Thursday 
Just be aware of any bit of you that might be thinking ‘well, she’s an avoidant so I don’t want to push her away more’ which is a pretty common LBS thought early on. Your experience may be different, PAL, in fact I hope it is but many of us found that these kinds of interactions turned out to not be very useful and often led to expectations that hurt us. The reality is you did not push her away....she chose to deal with whatever she feels by stepping away from you and your family.....so it’s unlikely that you can ‘pull’ her back if that makes sense, until or unless she chooses that and her actions fit her words.

I’m sorry too that her behaviour towards your daughter was/is not so great and i’m glad that you are taking steps to support and protect her. Unfortunately a lot of us found our spouses did things that were literally unimaginable to us before BD.....

There’s a saying somewhere to the effect that if you feel confused, they are not looking to really reconnect. If they do, you’ll know and can decide what to do about it then.

[palladian]

Treasur, thanks for the tough love. You are absolutely right. I noticed an expression of deep historical shame which she never shared with me, that is why I am open to see what is next. I sent her a looooong e-mail explaining how I handled my affair (because just until yesterday when I posted this, I didn't realize i got emotionally (not sexually) invested in someone else acting on me falling in love. I told her it will be her actions that determine whether we're going to survive this storm or whether I will not be any part whatsoever - apart from the formalities of our daughter - in her life. I told her to take her time. Really curious how that will pan out.

That being said, this morning, probably for the first time in my life, I realized that "I'm the prize" (I have two women already circling around a bit, so I will not lie, that is good fo the ego). What a difference a day makes, probably, will cycle back to being a total wreck tomorrow, but today is a good day 

[OldPilot]

Welcome to the Board

You are in a good place.
Your H/W  is on his/her own journey.
You can not do anything to control this trip.
Come here and read or vent, we will listen.
Give your H/W space  he/she needs to heal himself/herself.

I would not ask him/her anything unless you can have no expectations.
Sometimes asking them questions will be thought of as pressure.
You do not want to do anything that can be thought of by your H/W as controlling or pressure.

Your need to start working on you.
There is nothing that you can do to help your H/W.

He/She has given you a gift.
It is time!!

Use the time wisely to make yourself a better person.
Look in the mirror to see what it is that you can improve.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
GAL.

Read some books on depression. Both for yourself! And for H/W.
Believe none of what he/she says and 50% of what he/she does.

Read the resources from this site.
The links that are in my signature.

Detach. - The single most important thing you can do

The detach link and HB's 6 stages of MLC(rewritten from Jim Conway) located in the resources above.
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=4.msg380#msg380

Developing Detachment
http://jamesjmessina.com/toolsforcontrolissues/developdetachment.html

http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/self-focus_releasers_detach.html

http://www.livestrong.com/article/14712-developing-detachment/

RCR has asked everyone to keep to one thread until  that thread is 150 posts

Keep posting and asking questions and we will try to answer them.

Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon

[palladian]

It has been a few days. I'm navigating really strange contrasting feelings. Earlier this week, I felt great, liberated and strong. Reached out to several people, including some women which I have always had a good connection with, probably, to feel I 'still have it'. I also reached out to my own past MLC crush (who is a total avoidant herself, my patterns seem to continue). It sounds like a sad escape as I'm writing this.

I saw a psychologist (the one that treats my wife for years as well by the way, thought it was beneficial for both) for the first time in my life yesterday, next week another session. Didn't do much to be honest, I know all the theories, have a pretty ok insight in myself. Maybe I'm just impatient, trust the process I guess?

Health is crashing, lost 11kg in 8 weeks even though I eat pretty normally. Sleep is an issue, taking a natural sleep med. Need new clothes. I have caught a flue today I think and I need to care for my 8 year old who is also ill. Have a doctors appointment tomorrow. My wife, I saw her yesterday in an online school meeting, to discuss the well-being and behavior of our kid. It's not going great with my daughter. I felt extremely angry at her, couldn't hide it. I know, I should do better. I later apologised over text that it is unfair to her pain. She told me she felt really sad about the behavior of our daughter. I have a long e-mail ready where I describe how I feel about our family, doubting whether or not to send it. I see her next week twice. I reached out to mother-in-law to tell her I saw doubts, I know shouldn't have done it.

 I have way too many deadlines at work and I'm losing overview of priorities. I am in total firefight mode. Any practical advice to avoid a total crash is welcomed. 

What a sh** show.

[Thunder]

Hi Pal,

Your emotions are going to be all over the place for a while, it's to be expected, but it gets easier with time.  Just take good care of yourself.

I would suggest not sending it.  For one thing it will not change anything and if it's long she may not even read it all.  Their attention span gets pretty short.
Maybe just hang on to it for a while.

I wrote my H 3 different letters, but never sent them.

A year or 2 ago I came across them in a drawer and I am so, so glad I never sent them.
They were very heartfelt letters, but he would not have seen them that way.  He wouldn't have cared. I know that now.

I also found myself feeling so awful for the woman who wrote them.  I have changed so much since those early days it was like someone else wrote those.
I ended up throwing them away.

I think it's a good idea to write about your feelings/thoughts, it helps get it out of your head, but I wouldn't send them.
Just my opinion.

[Treasur]

Any practical advice to avoid a total crash is welcomed. 

Drop back to the basics is my advice.
Accept that, right now, your bandwidth is probably less. So you need to pace yourself and that means choosing to invest energy in x or y, not both as perhaps you might have done in the past. (You might find it helpful to read up on the Spoons Theory)
Do more of what tops up your bandwidth, whatever that is for you.
Do less of what drains your battery, whatever that is for you.
Train yourself to, as UM says, shoot the wolf closest to the sledge in terms of priorities. Which is not always the biggest one, or the scariest one, or the one that barks loudest. Or indeed the one that other people think you should shoot.
Teach yourself to be more present, to focus on one thing at a time. And be kind to yourself about any of your current limits, failures or struggles. If you have a bad day, start afresh the next day.
Prioritise your physical and mental wellbeing like your life and your daughters life depended on it. Sleep, diet, fresh air, ways to calm your mind, prayer, music, exercise, small pleasures.
Start each day by asking yourself ‘what do I need from myself today.’. End each day by thinking of three things from the day for which you are grateful, no matter how small.

I suspect that, rather like training for a marathon or an uphill climb, once you start training yourself to do these things, it will help you to decide if/how some of the things you mentioned (female attention, heartfelt emails, an IC of your own etc) will serve you right now or not......

Hope that helps and is sufficiently practical 

[Father5]

HI Palladian,

I am so sorry to have met you here. Please refran from having any meaningful conversations with your wife. More than likely she will end up using them against you. Put your business suit on and a happy face as best you can. We can all relate to where you're at. I was the worst groveller ever known.

   Make sure she understands there will be consequences, you will not be friends and you won't play happy family for her. Then become a rock for your daughter, she is going to need you now more than ever.

[palladian]

Thanks @Treasur, @Thunder, @Father5, following your advice.

48 hours of total anger. I was coincidentally confronted for the first time with the sign of her "new relation", two pillows on her fresh new bed. I was disgusted. Then she asked casually how I was (have a flue). I couldn't handle the situation, I just left after dropping off the luggage of our kid (kid didn't see this). After I calmed down, it took me 2 hours,  I took into account the following advice

Make sure she understands there will be consequences, you will not be friends and you won't play happy family for her.

 I sent her a whatsapp message to make her clear (again) that I do not want to have anything but a formal talk on raising our daughter, nothing of stories or personal 'how are you's'. The way she is handling her crisis basically, stonewalling me for the moment since she 'decided', is beyond words hurtful.

I also made clear that I believe the 'how are you's' are just friendly talk to stave off the emotional mess she made and I cannot pretend that all is ok.

Today I received a long mail reply from her where she tells me I'm still one of the most important persons in her life, and she will always be there for me, "even if I don't want it to". She gave me a lot of info on her sister's situation (terminally ill) which felt like an emotional offload, something I have absorbed too often in the past probably. I don't want to come across as harsh or cold, but I do have these pent up angry emotions if I see her so I don't know how to navigate this one. And she still wants to discuss 'the house situation' of course.

She asked me if our daughter can have the different holiday's even if she is with me so she can spend time with her sister who is also her God Mother. That is an easy one as it involves my daughter. Of course that is no issue, it is important to my daughter!

In one hour I have a call with her because school called us, my kid hears voices, typical symptom of emotional distress (yes, what a great idea to leave a family a few months before her God Mother dies, I'm sure I'll get the story she is concerned and doesn't know what to do.

Will do the best I can to stay collected and "business mode". Fingers crossed.
 
 

[palladian]

So had a 10 minute call, was business, probably a bit too cold but I felt my nerves glowing in my body. Did the right things for my daughter, acknowledged her grief for her sister. Didn't shout at her, didn't start debating. She asked - again - why I was so distant. FFSSSS.

[Standing Strong]

Good Palladian 

That's part of projection  She is running wild on the inside, why aren't you? It baffles them.

Calm and strong, just what you need to be in the beginning....

Good job!!

-SS

[Thunder]

Great advice from Father5!  I couldn't have said it better.   

[MomOfSteel]

You've gotten great advice and I'm just here to say I'm sorry you needed to find us but glad you did and so early.  I'm only a few months ahead of you but I wish I was able to just stick to business early on and had seen that advice.  My female lizard brain was very reactive in his presence at first.  I did have someone I met a couple months later that basically has been through something similar and told me to remain calm at all costs.  They expect a certain reaction from you and when you don't give it, you are taking back at least some control of the situation.  Sometimes they monster all the harder for a while to try and get that control.  It sounds like your wife doesn't like not getting the reaction she expects.  I regularly hold it in then have my breakdown after I'm done dealing with H so he doesn't see.  You did great from the sounds of it. 

[palladian]

I really appreciate your support, it is one of the hardest things I have done. I would not call myself cool and calm,  I am totally raging about the fact that the additional mental health issues of our 8 year daughter are directly linked to her choices. I am glad I got through the conversation more or less composed.

I wrote a message to explain her in detail all her choices and consequences from distance and loss of respect for her, to mental health damage, also showing her other choices which she can still make. What annoys me the most is she keeps reverting that I choose to be distant, rather than the distance being a consequence of her stonewalling and affair. There is a part of me that really wants to push 'send', I haven't sent it,  because this would be total "schock therapy". Then again, anybody has any experience with that approach? Just calling their BS stonecold factually? To be honest, it would feel so relieving, speaking absolute truth.

[MomOfSteel]

Your wife is trying to blame you for her actions because she doesn’t want to feel the consequences.  I wouldn’t send the email.  It will reinforce that you are the bad guy.  They don’t care about facts.  Somehow they are masters of twisting it all back to being your fault.  I’ve called my H out, all of my in-laws, his best friend ever since he was a teenager and others have too (he doesn’t have any real support except his AP).  None of it has mattered.  My son asked him why he would do something everyone who ever has loved him is telling him he will regret and it’s wrong.  Doesn’t matter.  They just can’t see it.   It makes them mad and pushes them further away.  Just my 2 cents.  I made a lot of mistakes early on after BD. 

[Standing Strong]

I really appreciate your support, it is one of the hardest things I have done. I would not call myself cool and calm,  I am totally raging about the fact that the additional mental health issues of our 8 year daughter are directly linked to her choices. I am glad I got through the conversation more or less composed.

I wrote a message to explain her in detail all her choices and consequences from distance and loss of respect for her, to mental health damage, also showing her other choices which she can still make. What annoys me the most is she keeps reverting that I choose to be distant, rather than the distance being a consequence of her stonewalling and affair. There is a part of me that really wants to push 'send', I haven't sent it,  because this would be total "schock therapy". Then again, anybody has any experience with that approach? Just calling their BS stonecold factually? To be honest, it would feel so relieving, speaking absolute truth.

Hey pall 

I would be careful about that message. If she is still in the mode of "do everything opposite of what he says" then it probably will have a bad countereffect. Very likely she'll run more and push back more. It can be seen as manipulative and controlling. You can have the best of intentions, but their perception is very twisted, especially in the beginning. Up is down and down is up.

Just be cautious. If it's something you HAVE to get off your chest, then that's one thing.... but it'll come with a cost. You are approaching instead of her approaching, and she'll probably not be ready for it.

-SS

[Treasur]

Don’t send it. Why?
A) waste of time bc that kind of note will change nothing
B) it will feed her narrative that you are a horrible controlling husband and might reappear in legal papers
C) very good chance it will be shared with her friends/family (at best) and an OM (at worst)
D) right now, bluntly, she does not care what you think or feel if it doesn’t fit her agenda
E) even healthy humans rarely change their course bc they are told they are being a POS....especially if they are lol
I could go on but that’s probably enough 

There’s a chap who writes books and articles about dealing with disordered folks called George Simon. He has a great phrase ‘it’s not that they don’t see, it’s that they disagree’. Or i’d add, don’t care. Most of us LBS went through a stage early on (waves hand) when we sent long carefully constructed emails or rants ‘explaining’ thatbif they did x, it would have consequence y. Not sure I can recall a single example of it making any positive difference at all. Often they don’t even read them or don’t remember if they did. Or use them as a weapon.

Well done on the self-preserving instinct that did not press send 
Your ‘need’ to ‘speak’ is entirely normal and understandable.....it will just be wasted on your wife.
Get a journal.
Vent here or with an IC.
Spew your thoughts in draft emails you never send
Shout at trees while walking or other inanimate objects.
Get a punch bag or take up drumming.

Part of reclaiming your life from gaslighting BS is, frankly, refusing to feed it and refusing to play. Your wife does not currently care what you think....so stop telling her. Unless she’s usually an idiot, it’s pretty predictable that a h might be unimpressed after being left, right? And you do not have to justify or explain your boundaries to have them. Like being distant with her.....one can be distant yet civil as you should be bc you share a young child....boundaries are best understood in action than words anyway. She may not like it but hey ho, that’s what happens when you treat a spouse this way or leave them. It’s a pretty common defence tactic (have you heard of DARVO?) to essentially say the problem is not what i’m doing but your reaction to what i’m doing. Errr, no.

Reclaim your truth by being rigorous as hell about what you can control and what you can’t. And as honest with yourself as you can about your own emotions and that feeling something does not mean you have to act based on it. Hence what we call the Rule of 3 which is putting in a full stop between Feeling and Response. Just like you instinctively did here. Find other ways to let those feelings out that do not involve your wife, daughter or lawyers  TBh your recovery....and your daughters future wellbeing....will be influenced much more longer term by how you choose to work with your own emotions and reactions now than telling your wife how to work on hers 

All of what you feel is entirely normal, Pal. We get that. We are just encouraging you to find new ways to work with it. But you obviously have good instincts so i’m sure you’ll find a way to do that which works for you.

[HeavenlyFocus]

You are getting great advice.  I too was in a similar situation and wanted to send a message to my XW and I agree with others that sending it won't matter.    The only time I confronted her in the past year was when she really hurt my kids with an unexpected man in her place when they were picking up their things.   Best thing to do is totally focus on taking care of you daughter and yourself.   I am so sorry that you and your 8 y/o D are having to go through this.

HF

[palladian]

Thanks everyone for the support. I confess, I was weak, modified the message to be 'warmer' to - again - try to explain why I was distant, what she could expect in the future and which alternative choices there are. I still probably need to learn to what extent she engages (she did so earlier already on previous messages, which is why I want to see what happens) but above all to me it offers 'consolation', there cannot be any hiding in 'I didn't know you thought about it like this'. So it was more for me than her actually, to learn to set boundaries, sooo good on me! 

On a happier note, went to my psychologist, it was valuable to be able to tell, having some validation on emotions, and he gave the insight that 'not knowing why' is ok, strengthening my view she is the one losing out one a unique thing and being more confident about the type of relationship I deserve to have. It felt relaxing to be able to shut down the brain in a way (at least for a while). Have made 2 more appointments in april.

I also bought some new shirts, look pretty ribbed (a silver lining of LBS?  , have my entire week planned out to meet people for good conversation, including a really fascinating woman which I really have a good vibe with (I'm not interested in rebound so wouldn't engage even if I wanted to and now I don't want to) and seem to be able to focus a bit more on work than last few days, health is still sh** though.

But, in general, today is a good day!

[readytofixmyselffirst]

Hello,

So sorry for the circumstances that brought you here, but glad that you are at a place where you can get the support you need.

I was weak, modified the message to be 'warmer' to - again - try to explain why I was distant, what she could expect in the future and which alternative choices there are.

I would not try to explain anything to her. Do journal your feelings as this is a great way for you to start to heal. However, messages from you trying to explain your feelings are only going to maker her feel guilt and this will only result in anger towards you. Remember, she will be angry because you are trying to make her feel bad. She has no true empathy for you. This is all about her and her feelings. She doesn't "love" OM, she "loves" the way he makes her feel.

Many will talk about their MLCer being a narcissist and that may be true in some cases, but most are just going through a period of being very self centered- even if for all the wrong reasons. That mindset came out in her interactions with her daughter.

strengthening my view she is the one losing out one a unique thing and being more confident about the type of relationship I deserve to have.

Confidence is very important right now. Because I never met, saw, or even knew much about OM, I always felt inadequate towards him. It really hurt my self confidence and took a long time to get it back.

(I'm not interested in rebound

Not now, that would be messy and most of all confusing towards your daughter. She is dealing with crazy mom right now; she needs all of her father's attention and emotional energy.

Keep healing yourself and be there for you daughter. Don't focus on your wife as it will only pull you into her mess. Detachment takes time and trying to see if she is coming out of the tunnel is a waste of time- take it from me.

Have a great day and even better week,

((((Ready))))

[MomOfSteel]

It helped me to read through the posts from shock sis where she answered peoples questions about MLC from her point of view.  It helped me to not react as strongly when he pulls his garbage. 

[palladian]

Today I woke up angry as f***, angry at the level of disrespect shown to myself. I am taking as much distance as I can (she keeps dropping practical messages though) and I notice I start feeling a certain level of disdain towards her as if she is a high school kid and I'm the adult here, She is losing me as her equally leveled companion, her peer. I also feel the urge to treat her like that. I'm like: let's get divorced asap, I don't want this toddler in my life any more.

I'm also really struggling in handling the following 2 situations:

I received some happy pictures of my daughter, they went to a fun fair. On the one hand I'm happy to see my daughter, on the other hand I'm hurt that she has no idea how hurtful this is (I should have been there with them ffs). I just didn't send any reply.

Second situation, and even more difficult: she wrote quite some text how things are with her sister, a lot of sorrow of course. She treats me like I'm her best friend (which I was, I was her bloody husband) looking for consolation. I don't feel anything about her cake-eating but on the other hand, it is an exceptional situation, so I'm stuck in between two sides. I also feel the urge saying: go to your OM with that as well, b***.

Did anyone of you have these feelings of contempt? How do you navigate them?

Oh, I also got confirmation the sister thing was the trigger: she wrote me that 'because of the situation with her sister', she doesn't really want to have to think about arranging the financial side of the divorce (related to our house). It sounded like it was a fait divers she just wanted to get off her plate.

[UrsaMajor]

They (the Mid-Lifer) usually doesn't want to think about ANYTHING that interferes with their supply of "happy."

That means anything having to do with consequences, responsibility, "adulting,"

Her complaining to you about whatever situation she has created with her sister is, quite frankly, not your circus, not your monkeys so the proper response is to either ignore it or maybe the occasional "uh huh," "I see," "hmmmm," and so on... Since it is mostly apparently in the form of text messages or other writing, it is quite easy to simply ignore or read/delete/  there is no requirement for you to react/respond.

As for her not wanting to think about the financial side... well, DARN those pesky consequences of her actions and the associated responsibilities... she's going to HAVE to think about it...

[readytofixmyselffirst]

Hello,

I don't feel anything about her cake-eating but on the other hand, it is an exceptional situation, so I'm stuck in between two sides. I also feel the urge saying: go to your OM with that as well, b***.

You are right that this is an exceptional situation. You are processing grief as well. In my situation, my sister-in-law was living with us and passed from terminal cancer. It was just terrible and she and I were close. In my situation, it was not her sister passing that caused the MLC, she was already involved with OM prior to that. It just made the situation worse.  I don't think that discussing the sister is necessarily off-limits, just compartmentalize any such discussion with your wife about your sister to your sister and if the conversation starts to drift, cut it off and go back to the subject of the sister.

I received some happy pictures of my daughter, they went to a fun fair.

How often is she with the daughter? If you have her most of the time, don't fret the times they are together. After all, this is less about her being a mother and more about her being a friend and your daughter accepting her new "friend" as she is.

Trust me, you need to be the adult and the father.  This is for your daughter and for you. Use this time to define who you are as a man and as a father. Remember, everybody is awesome during the good times, it's our actions during the challenges in life that truly define our character. Don't have contempt towards your wife, but do have love for yourself. Remember, you don't have to chop her down to build yourself up. She has made her choices and needs to live with the consequences of those choices. As UM wrote, her circus not yours. Let her live with her choices while you detach and focus on living your life as if she is not coming back. Detachment is the acceptance of many outcomes and regardless- you can accept an live with any of them.

Find moments of bliss for yourself, and bliss when you are with your daughter. These moments and reflecting on them will help you detach. Likewise, embrace the anger and delve into your anger. Anger is a masking emotion. Often my anger was masking my fear. Sometimes, it masked my hurt and sense of loss. What drives your anger? Journal it for your recovery and self-growth. I did not learn much about my ex during the crisis, but I learned a lot about myself. As you have posted, you came from a background of trauma. Have you resolved those issues?

You are very new to this and you will go from moments of "I will never leave her" to "I can't wait to be rid of her forever" will resonate. You will have some of the best days of your life and some of the absolute worse days. It's okay, that's why we are here to support you as you complete your journey.

Have a great day,

((((Ready))))

[palladian]

@Ready, great stuff, thanks. It is hard to navigate showing compassion when so much anger (masking hurt and betrayal for sure) is there. It also makes it more difficult to detach no?

My daughter has a week by week arrangement, something I hate her for, because she is taking 50% of time with her in the years that matter. Also, I know she will do additional mental damage. That being said, you are right of course, it is not about me but about my little girl.

I like the "you don't have to chop her down to build yourself up", I'll try to use that as a mantra because I know I'm prone to passive aggressive behavior, linked to childhood stuff. I'm seeing a psychologist, actively working on all that stuff, but will take some time of course.

Then again, I need to protect boundaries, she casually texted me yesterday "if we could have a chat about the house" in 2 hours over the phone. We agreed to discuss this on Sunday during a walk. I just answered "no". My health is still crumbling but doing the best I can to take care of myself. Will be a hell of a weekend: we first see a child therapist together, then there is a gym performance of the kid where we'll both be but be sitting separately and on Sunday, walking time to discuss property. Will report back Sunday evening probably, unless something pops up tomorrow which pushes my buttons too much. Wish me luck 

[Father5]

Hi Palladian,

    It took me years to detach and I still have moments of anger. I have only seen my X's face three times in three years. We have two kids together, She hasn't once offered an apology of any sort. Keep the house talk all business as if you were dealing with a stranger.( You are ) She isn't your friend or the mother of your children when you discuss business.

[palladian]

It has been a few days, rollercoaster yet again. We went to see a child therapist together last Saturday. The first thing she said: 'you look nice'. Tsss. Anyway, our kid is struggling with a lot. Both daughter and my wife cried when the nearing death of Godmother / sister came up. I held both their hand. In the evening, gymnastics show, sat down separately, mother in law comes over and says hi. Wife at the end (after family left and she sat alone) waved at me. I waved back (shouldn't have done that probably) and she came over.

When I said goodbye to my daughter she was next to me and visibly enjoying the 'family moment'. Sunday, we went walking to discuss some practicals. She changed her show again related to finance/our house. She says she feels tremendous financial pressure (living from paycheck to paycheck no reserve, loan of 10k to buy furniture in her rental apartment) she tells me. I believe her, has always been one of the key problems with her, lack of ownership on her financial situation. We discussed in a pretty adult manner different things related to daughter, practicals, sister and I threw some personal insights at her from my personal growth work. No true reciprocation, am used to that though, she is an emotional bunker, only thing she mentioned was "we indeed have a unique bond" and she "enjoyed these walks so much". She did not act "off" during the walk, just very troubled/stressed.

For the rest I'm moving forward with life, new wardrobe (looking sharp), new plants, new pictures in the house, seeing people, going abroad for 6 days.

I have also been reading a lot into affairs, marriage crises, falling in love etc. and I wonder if a) this is MLC after all, it feels like it though and it has all the symptoms b) if I can cherish any hope to rebuild. I see a path forward, cleaning up all historical $h!te (codependency issues on both sides, discuss affairs and what went wrong) and then just have fun together and see what happens. I told her that, and her answer was 'that's fair'. The only thing that is in the way is the OM of course ( today I feel convinced I could forgive her), which I'm sure she is building an emotional and physical connection with. I love this woman, want to sooth her pain, have a unique connection with her. Supporting her also keeps a connection which I'm afraid of loosing as rebuilding would be more difficult?  So f*** I'm trapped in my head, yet again. Probably still in denial right? Any thoughts?

Cheers
Palladian

[Father5]

HI Palladian,

You are showing her a life with you. She has already seen that. Show what a life without you is like. As long as OM is in the picture you should be as distant as possible. What you are showing her ( in my opinion) is that you are ok with what she is doing. She can do what ever she wants and you are going to be there waiting for her. Most fiances and discusioions can be done with email. Don't be her shoulder to cry on about finances because you have been fired from that post. She has someone else to cry to now.

   This is extremely hard stuff and only you can decide what to do. Please keep your chin up, you are doing great. I wasn't near this composed this early on. (still might not be)

[xyzcf]

I do not believe that our responses to them "matter" in the greater scheme of things. This is not a marriage issue and we cannot "win" them back by our actions or withdrawing from them.

I do believe that you fare best when you are true to yourself, don't "pretend" to be something you are not and when whatever you choose feels right in your gut.

You get to decide what you will respond to, what discussions you are willing to hear. Not all MLCers "monster"...some are quite decent and often we can see the struggle they are in, as much as it hurts us, I believe it hurts them very deeply as well.

The imminent death of her sister to me is a valid time to show support to her and your daughter.

My question is why would you change who you are because your spouse is having a crisis?

It's not the most popular view perhaps and each of us has to figure out for ourselves how we will treat the MLCer.

It's not going to make a difference regarding if they ever return, that is beyond our control but it does make a difference in how we feel about ourselves and how our children view the way we treat others.

MLCers are not mentally stable individuals. Expecting them to respond to us in a normal fashion sets us up for disappointment.

I love this woman, want to sooth her pain, have a unique connection with her. Supporting her also keeps a connection which I'm afraid of loosing as rebuilding would be more difficult?  So f*** I'm trapped in my head, yet again. Probably still in denial right? Any thoughts?

It is very confusing to have feelings of love for someone who treats us so terribly. We do have a unique connection to them, I still love my husband, that has not disappeared and probably never will. You cannot soothe her pain. Stepping away and letting her explore what she needs to do is the most difficult but kindest thing to do for her.

The fear that rebuilding would be more difficult is one that I have experienced yet I still think that the actions I have shown him over the years will be remembered. In some space in his heart, he knows the person I am.

Again, I do not think it matters. As long as they are in a crisis, their heads are all over the place. If they come through their crisis and recognize the things that happened, then they will be the ones to approach us about rebuilding. That can only happen when they are ready and if they are willing to own up to the damage their crisis caused.

[palladian]

She has already seen that. Show what a life without you is like. As long as OM is in the picture you should be as distant as possible. What you are showing her ( in my opinion) is that you are ok with what she is doing. She can do what ever she wants and you are going to be there waiting for her. Most fiances and discusioions can be done with email.

First, really appreciate your honesty, to clarify things a bit: regarding the finances, I'm in a really bad legal situation so one of the reasons why I go on a walk is to keep the connection so we can settle amicably, something I believe she wants as well, but hey, I've been wrong before.

 I am definitely not just accepting the OM, but he is there, she is in love and I can blame her but that won't help me in any way. Am I ok with it? No, not at all. Will I be able to forgive her?  I think so, because a) our bond goes way beyond just having sex b) she was looking for what she was lacking probably, just as I did years ago when having an emotional (not physical) affair c) if I ever want to consider the path of rebuilding, I will have to handle that. That path has become pretty clear as I have been doing a lot of reading an reflecting on my own troubles. It is pretty clear how we ended up in this mess and I am convinced that if two true adults sit together and are willing to work things through and enjoy being together again, there is a chance the spark will reignite. No guarantees, neither on my or her end. To my surprise, I am not feeling 'desperate to get her back', more like an adult reflection of: she is veeery dear to me, do I want to give this rebuild path a chance? Yes. Of course, the main challenge here is '2 adults', if she cannot face the music, it will be game over for me.

I do not believe that our responses to them "matter" in the greater scheme of things. This is not a marriage issue and we cannot "win" them back by our actions or withdrawing from them.

I tend to believe that sending good vibes to someone you love counters the pain they feel, so I honestly don't know.

I do believe that you fare best when you are true to yourself, don't "pretend" to be something you are not and when whatever you choose feels right in your gut.

That's how I tend to go about it up to now: what feels good and right to me in this situation, not from a needy place but more from a grounded place (more easily said than done). That is why I am cycling between all the advice as well I guess.

My question is why would you change who you are because your spouse is having a crisis?

To me it feels like a turning point in my own life as well I guess. I want to change for me, because I know I can be so much more than I have been, that our marriage as it was (codependence) was standing in my way. I'm done with the 'old me' and the patterns in which I lived in for 41 years, I guess that's personal growth no?  I also (but not primarily) want to change for her, as I believe that's the only way we can ever rebuild as a couple (provided she can go through a similar transformation of course).

[xyzcf]

To me it feels like a turning point in my own life as well I guess. I want to change for me, because I know I can be so much more than I have been, that our marriage as it was (codependence) was standing in my way. I'm done with the 'old me' and the patterns in which I lived in for 41 years, I guess that's personal growth no? 

We change throughout life and hopefully let go of patterns of behavior that are less than ideal. When that growth is for our own lives then I say go for it!

Sometimes the advice given here sounds like we must change for them to somehow be encouraged to turn back to us. Or that then they will have to face the consequences of what they have done.

If our changes come from a place of becoming a better person, self actualizing as Maslow's hierarchy of needs explains is a beneficial goal.

That is why I am cycling between all the advice as well I guess.

Each of us have different ways of seeing life. We had different marriages and different views on the permanency of marriage. In the early days, I wanted a guide that would allow me to do the "right" thing so fearful was I that somehow I would mess it up and cause him to distance himself ever more (if that was even possible).

I learned that there is no manual, no tried and true ways to win them back and that ultimately I had to decided for myself what was best for me and my daughter.

I tend to believe that sending good vibes to someone you love counters the pain they feel, so I honestly don't know.

That is interesting. Thanks for sharing it.

My observations have been and my own personal experience has been that they are truly in their own world.

I come from a deeply faith driven background where the most important thing to me is "to love one another as I have loved you".  This is what seems to be the main value that I have, for him and hopefully in my interactions with others.

This is a good place to look at your beliefs and values and come to your own conclusions. It is also a good place to see the advice given because we don't always see things the way that others do and that can be helpful in our personal journeys, taking what fits our own paradigm and disregarding what doesn't.

[Treasur]

I hear what you are saying, Pal, about hoping that some walks/talks will maintain some kind of connection that will enable you to avoid a high conflict and expensive divorce. However, it may be wise to temper your expectations . Why? Well, folks in crisis are notorious for saying one thing and then changing their minds. Plus a legal process rarely brings out the best in any of us. And your wife is already complaining about her financial woes without apparently quite connecting her choices to the predictable financial consequences, or indeed cutting her coat based on her current financial cloth. Which is perhaps a bit of a red flag. Jmo.

If you honestly believe that codependency was a substantive issue in your marriage, it seems likely that you might need - initially at least - to work quite hard to retrain your thinking with regard to your wife’s emotions, thoughts and circumstances. It takes a bit of time for any LBS to shift their mindset from a We. If you know you have a habit of codependency, you might have to work that bit harder to separate out what ‘belongs’ on your side of the street and what does not. And if it’s a shared pattern, your wife is possibly not going to react well as you start pulling back from a We (even it’s a different kind of We) to a Me. Which imho makes those walk/talks potentially tricky and confusing ground for you both, so something to be actively conscious about in your interactions maybe? If you are seeing a decent IC, I suspect that this will become part of your toolbox to work on.

On top of that, if you read back through your posts so far, I think you will see that you are on your own emotional rollercoaster. That your feelings are swishing around and perhaps that sometimes makes your own behaviour a bit inconsistent. Which is LBS normal in the early stages, so so normal. But it’s another good reason for going slow and cautiously in your interactions with your wife until your own emotional rollercoaster feels a bit less active. It’s hard to do our best thinking and doing on a rollercoaster 

What does being divorced mean to you, Pal? How would you behave differently as a divorced man as opposed to a married or separated one? What would you expect differently from your x-wife as opposed to now? What would you think it is ok for her to expect from you as an ex husband as opposed to now? How would your boundaries adapt towards her and towards others? Not sure there are one set of right’ answers to this but it may be worth your reflection as you move forward. Just a thought.

[palladian]

It has been a while since my last update. What happened? A lot happened...

I am still working on myself and looking what I want and need, unapologetically and getting better at it, doing my sports, further decorating the house and meeting with a lot of people. Life is good there. She sent a text on april first to say it was april first with a smiley. April first is the day we were officially together. What kind of person does that? (I know you are going to say an MLC person  I went abroad for a week for work, I didn't text her for the entire week, she didn't either. She is going silent (a mode I totally hate but I'm sticking to it).  During the week abroad I had the time to reflect with more distance on the entirety: myself, her and us.

I decided I am done with her way of handling things, acting like we are friends which we are not, we're a former couple with a very big issue. It hurts me when she acts 'fake', so I told her that and ask her to stop.

I also decided that there is nothing I really want to save any more if there is no openness for substantial change on her end (things like daring to share how you feel and actually being interested, basically the attachment style issues she is carrying). It feels like an integrated decision, not one out of anger or hurt.

I decided - and this may ruffle some feathers on this board as this may be considered as 'not done' - to not wait to upgrade myself sexually and emotionally. I realise this may lead to a relationship with someone else, or at least me being upgraded by the time my MLC is back to talk.


My daughter seems to have adapted just a bit, and I'm doing more things actively with her, so that's good. I have the impression, my wife is taking good care of her as well.

If you know you have a habit of codependency, you might have to work that bit harder to separate out what ‘belongs’ on your side of the street and what does not. And if it’s a shared pattern, your wife is possibly not going to react well as you start pulling back from a We (even it’s a different kind of We) to a Me. Which imho makes those walk/talks potentially tricky and confusing ground for you both, so something to be actively conscious about in your interactions maybe? If you are seeing a decent IC, I suspect that this will become part of your toolbox to work on.

Yes, you are right. I know this may sound strange, I think it would potentially be better working my issues out without her and some of them (mainly physical) with someone else than her.

On top of that, if you read back through your posts so far, I think you will see that you are on your own emotional rollercoaster. It’s hard to do our best thinking and doing on a rollercoaster 

Yes, but with the decisions I have made last week, I feel like the roller coaster is calming down quite rapidly.

What does being divorced mean to you, Pal? How would you behave differently as a divorced man as opposed to a married or separated one? What would you expect differently from your x-wife as opposed to now? What would you think it is ok for her to expect from you as an ex husband as opposed to now? How would your boundaries adapt towards her and towards others? Not sure there are one set of right’ answers to this but it may be worth your reflection as you move forward. Just a thought.

Great and confronting question... To me, married means you actively work on your marriage and your problems. Separated means we let each other 'loose' with the idea that we might come back together at a later stage. Divorce to me sounds final. When we divorce in a way she is handling things now (OM, no conversation about what went wrong, faking friendship, no effort to actually look at the problems), I think I would lose my respect for her and would consider her as somebody who was not mature enough to handle an adult relationship. This would mean I would not want her in my life any more at all, apart from the formal parts for our daughter, also not as a friend. If she would come to the table and still we end up in a divorce, I would think we could potentially stay friends and be more amicable in the approach to raise our daughter (e.g. like joint parent-school talks)

[palladian]

It has been a few weeks since my last check-in (omg, it is indeed quite the emotional rollcoaster) and what a few weeks it have been. Overall, I'm hanging in there, some total breakdowns, in private, although the kid saw me cry once. Following the rules of self-care, friends, hobbies and whatnot. Detaching is becoming easier, I managed to not text anything for about a week on end. The difficulty to detach is the kid part though, as we are forced to see each other at least once a week.

The wife is still off the rails with a big plot twist... OM decided to stop the affair and go back to his family. And guess who my wife is sobbing to that she is hurt about the fact he left. Yes, indeed. Me. Incredible how she still feels connected but yet refuses to engage in actually confronting problems, her actions and their consequences. I tried to reason with her by describing 3 ways forward (more time to think, exploring if any type of relation can be formed, or a total break-off). Guess what: no answer, just the story: our marriage is finished and I don't see how we can fix this. Mèh, it really sucks when people cannot handle their emotions and the consequences of their actions. She is stonewalling, being defensive, gaslighting, all of the nice toxic communication behaviors...

Anyway, wondered if any of you here have had the similar OM/OW leaving your spouse, and how to navigate that. There is a part of me which sees this as an opportunity to reengage, another part of me is thinking: give her time to get over the loss of the OM and yet another part of me is like "oh well". So pretty confusing I must say. As always any feedback is much appreciated.

[Thunder]

Oh no no no...palladian, this break up of their affair has nothing to do with you and you can not and should not comfort her.  How very selfish they get, like you should care about their break-up.   

You should refuse to hear anything about it.
You can be kind and say I am sorry you are hurting, but you need to figure this out for yourself.

This affair has nothing to do with me or my marriage.
Then just step back and continue to live your life.

[MomOfSteel]

Pal, yikes!  It’s like she wants the familiar comfort she used to have.  It really does make me scratch my head as to what is going on in their heads.  I’m guessing their brains look somewhat like my children’s messy rooms. 

[HeavenlyFocus]

It has been a few weeks since my last check-in (omg, it is indeed quite the emotional rollcoaster) and what a few weeks it have been. Overall, I'm hanging in there, some total breakdowns, in private, although the kid saw me cry once. Following the rules of self-care, friends, hobbies and whatnot. Detaching is becoming easier, I managed to not text anything for about a week on end. The difficulty to detach is the kid part though, as we are forced to see each other at least once a week.

Hi Palladian,

I completely understand the challenge of trying to detach when you have kids involved.  I have to coordinate a lot of my kids activities with my XW and   have consistent contact.   She still relies on me for help and often does this when the kids are around.   I do what I can for my kids sake but it isn't fun.

Hope you can move forward and leave her craziness to herself.   

HF

[Treasur]

Oh no no no...palladian, this break up of their affair has nothing to do with you and you can not and should not comfort her.  How very selfish they get, like you should care about their break-up.   

You should refuse to hear anything about it.
You can be kind and say I am sorry you are hurting, but you need to figure this out for yourself.

This affair has nothing to do with me or my marriage.
Then just step back and continue to live your life.

I agree with Thunder but perhaps for slightly different reasons, ones that have nothing to do with your wife or your marriage.
I hope that your IC can help you through the trial and error process of unlearning your own codependency as you have said you think this is an issue for you. One of the characteristics of codependency is a blurring of emotional boundaries with another person, feeling that we should feel what they feel and vice versa. And therefore spending too much time in the world of your wife’s feelings about the demise of her affair is unlikely to be helpful or healthy for you. She has her feelings.....they belong to her and it is her job to figure out how to manage them without your contribution.

The other thing that strikes me that you mentioned is that at least some part of you thinks this might be a door to reconnection. I would humbly suggest that this is not true....she did not have an affair bc of you even if it was her perceived solution to her then unhappiness....she had other choices after all.....and the absence of OM (assuming that lasts) will not magically repair your relationship either. It’s like cart before horse. Necessary perhaps but not sufficient. Part of the LBS’s work I suspect is that we need to redefine the nature of the relationship we now have with our former spouses.....to work out a new context for our interactions with them. And that’s hard, we get that....this person is no longer your partner/friend bc of their own choices and behaviour towards you, so what are they now? And what are the appropriate operating ‘rules’ from your POV for this new kind of relationship? We do know how tough this can be, almost a process of unlearning old ways and habits in order to construct new ones. And it isn’t always big things, is it? Sometimes it is those moments of seeing something the other person would find funny or an impulse to share something that happened in your day or buying a particular coffee brand bc it’s their favourite....and then realising that what you would have done without thinking in the past is no longer appropriate in the new landscape.

How would you describe the role she has in your life right now? And what feels appropriate and not given that changed landscape?

It seems clear (and there are others here who have done it) that if both parties decide to commit to rebuilding a relationship, it would be necessary to talk in a reciprocal way about the cause and effect of an extramarital affair. But until/unless that is so, imho it serves no constructive purpose....you need to find other places and people with whom to process your feelings and where you are currently and your next steps....so does she. You may hope that you reach this point, you may even do so in future.....but I see nothing in what you wrote that suggests this is practically speaking where you are now.

The reason I say this is more about you than your wife or marriage is that it is giving you a valuable opportunity to really unpick how you do codependency as you see it. And that will most likely be useful to you in any future close relationships, whether that includes your current wife or not. It would be a shame to miss that opportunity.....

You may find it helpful to have a short phrase that works for you to disengage from being a participant in these kind of conversations. Something that says I can see that you are distressed but I am not the appropriate person for you to have this conversation with as things are. (And that’s a boundary....I am not willing to participate in this kind of conversation.....but without getting into the kind of control that says I think you should do x or y about it...or making it about you or your marriage either, or indeed needing to justify your choice. A polite no is enough.)  I think most of us learn to DO detached long before we begin to FEEL detached  and our ex/spouses don’t always much like it when we do tbh.....and we come slow to it bc tbh a large part of us wants the old relationship not whatever the new one is if we are honest with ourselves.....but it is one of those bits of life reality that if you choose to leave your spouse, or your spouse has an affair and leaves you, the nature of your relationship and expectations of them changes, right? We’re just not in Kansas anymore as the saying goes 

[palladian]

Thank you all for the support and the advice, I see your point, especially the one on codependency. New update: she texted me yesterday evening telling me she felt like sh** and if I wasn't totally disgusted with her by now, asked if I would still be willing to go in to marriage counseling. That's like a 72 hour full U-turn of "I want to divorce and I OM is my future" to "OM left me and I want to try save my marriage". It sounds like she cannot bear the idea of being alone and is fleeing back. I would consider therapy but how can I figure out if it is genuine, sounds like an easy path on her end. Wtf...

[Standing Strong]

Pall,

That's a tough place to be....... seen it, been there...... she needs to "Dry out" like an recovering alcoholic would. It takes time.
It's a terrible thing for the LBS to experience: them running back. The thing is: they need to do it for the right reasons and not the wrong ones.
She'll have that whole multi-month grieving process to run thru. If she doesn't do that, then she's still just a junkie looking for a fix and you'll be a band aid.
Slow it down, it's going to take a lot of patience.

What I got to see when mine was dumped (or whatever) from the 1st OM in the first year of her MLC...... it was a good three months (at least) that I could see...... just a wreck of a person..... depressed, angry, obvious withdrawal, super weird expressions (words) that made no sense to me but was intended for other ears (  )...... and a lot of reflection at times. Could I have done anything in that time? Nope, she had to clear it herself, and by the end (or in the middle somewhere) another OM had taken the place (I guess the pain was too much  ).

Let her cook..... even in the span of a week, watch and see if she cycles into a different direction and if you can't tell what she's doing.... then give it a month. It'll all change, you'll see.   

-SS

[Treasur]

Thank you all for the support and the advice, I see your point, especially the one on codependency. New update: she texted me yesterday evening telling me she felt like sh** and if I wasn't totally disgusted with her by now, asked if I would still be willing to go in to marriage counseling. That's like a 72 hour full U-turn of "I want to divorce and I OM is my future" to "OM left me and I want to try save my marriage". It sounds like she cannot bear the idea of being alone and is fleeing back. I would consider therapy but how can I figure out if it is genuine, sounds like an easy path on her end. Wtf...

I would suggest, Pal, that maybe this is the wrong question?
Is she genuine in the sense of meaning what she said when she said it? Perhaps. Is she consistent in her goal? Well, perhaps not, it is too early to say isn’t it?
And I want to remind you and the rest of us that it is literally only a couple of months since this whirlwind began for you. It is reasonable on your part to say you need time to think about it, or not until x or y, or that you simply don’t know. It’s ok to take your time, Pal....just bc your wife sees something as urgent does not make it so.

What her ask does suggest is that she sees her problem and potential solution as being a We issue, and I would humbly suggest that rationally there is a Me issue that comes first. And that is for her to unpick without your contribution. Why did she do what she did? What would she do differently in future? What does she see as the root cause of her ‘feeling like s&it’ and what does she intend to do to address that in herself? What does she want and why does she want it? And what does she feel she can honestly offer you therefore as a marriage partner, what is she proposing?

I suspect some bit of you either feels that you have to respond if you still hope for a chance of reconciliation or that she will justify her future actions by blaming you if you don’t. She knows you well enough probably to know how to press your buttons. So, you need to calm yourself enough to step away from any mindf*ckery and be aware of your own buttons imho by taking several breaths and a bit of time to consider what your w is actually asking for and offering. Try to look as calmly as you can at the facts of the situation and to not conflate apples and pears. Jmo.

[palladian]

I hear you Treasur, you are right, it is a me-problem to her first, that is very clear to me, she halfway acknowledged that saying she realises her emotions are over the place and things are a sh**show. I agree chances are she is not taking full ownership though for it.

The way I look at it, the goal of counseling would be first and foremost a means for me to 'close off' this chapter of our relation, potentially end the marriage, where I will potentially gain understanding of her drivers and pinpoint the codependency / insecure attachment root cause which dates back to both our childhoods. I will see the next few days and weeks if she has landed on planet earth again or if she is still totally off rails. If she is genuine, I guess I'd be open to at least consider rebuilding, but that decision is for later, first the "me-work".

I also think that since both of us have some codependency stuff to process it can be fertile ground to tackle that type of problem and grow together, basically handling the me-problems on both sides, together. Of course, provided both are fully aware and 'sane in the brain'.

Not sure if that makes any sense? :-)

[Treasur]

It does make sense, Pal.
So if I understand you right, you are open to it but waiting a little while to see how things go before jumping on it? Can’t recall if you have your own IC, but if you do, you might find it useful to share this issue with them?

[readytofixmyselffirst]

hello,

This is a tough spot to be in.

OM decided to stop the affair and go back to his family. And guess who my wife is sobbing to that she is hurt about the fact he left. Yes, indeed. Me. Incredible how she still feels connected but yet refuses to engage in actually confronting problems, her actions and their consequences.

This is a minefield with all of your hard work on detaching at risk. I don't know OM, and I really don't want to, however, there are many stories on the forum about the many break-ups and reconciliations of the MLCer and their affair partner. I am not trying to be a pessimist, instead, I am trying to protect you and your feelings. 

New update: she texted me yesterday evening telling me she felt like sh** and if I wasn't totally disgusted with her by now, asked if I would still be willing to go in to marriage counseling. That's like a 72 hour full U-turn of "I want to divorce and I OM is my future" to "OM left me and I want to try save my marriage". It sounds like she cannot bear the idea of being alone and is fleeing back. I would consider therapy but how can I figure out if it is genuine, sounds like an easy path on her end. Wtf...

There is a lot packed in to this.  The self-loathing comments are very common and slant towards manipulation. She is testing the waters. My ex offered couples counseling every time we reached a breaking point and we actually went for over a year, but it was to no avail. However, despite all of her denials, the alienator was always present throughout the crisis.

I would offer that you should wait until she is fully committed to the marriage. "I am sorry that you feel sad, but like you said, your feelings are all over the place and before we start anything as a couple, I think your feelings need to be in the right place."  She needs to detox herself off OM completely then make the next move. If she goes back to OM or finds another OM,  it doesn't mean that you did the wrong thing, it means that she was never committed to coming back to you in the first place. Remember this is her crisis- you are just a casualty.

It's a terrible thing for the LBS to experience: them running back. The thing is: they need to do it for the right reasons and not the wrong ones.

The other thing is that you don't want to be her option B.  From my perspective, her crisis is driven by feelings and she is hoping that by returning to you, she can get her "high" that she felt with OM.  It is not she is looking for the easy way back, she is looking for her fix.

Just go slow, take care of your family, and heal. Regardless of what choices are actions you take, you want to come from a place of inner strength where you can emotionally respond to her instead of reacting to her storm.

Be good to yourself,

(((((Ready))))

[gman242]

Hello! Welcome to the forum!! You've gotten a lot of great advice so far!

My story sounds a bit like yours and definitely the codependency. If I had to go back in time, I'd give myself the following advice below. But most importantly, I would add two things: what you may want, may change and also, nothing means anything without consistent actions backing it up.

The doozy for me right now would be marriage counseling. It's up to you if you want to go, but as others have said, this isn't your problem. She needs to fix her before you guys can worry about fixing US.

I think my ex was equally codependent (and still is). She dragged me through the wringer.. it was a mess for several years. My advice is focus on you, learn to get out of your head, practice that often and don't worry about her and what she is doing or will do.

1. They're going to do what they want.
 Nothing you say and do will make it better. However you can definitely make it worse.
I'd recommend being neutral in all of your dealings and keep things to a minimum. I see. I'm sorry you feel that way. And so on.

2. Do whatever you need to, to protect yourself and your children emotionally, financially and physically (in cases of abuse).
That can be anything from and to blocking access to financial resources, getting a new job for more income, going back to college, getting a lawyer and so on. Ask yourself if you can survive without another income. If not, what do you need to do to make it happen?

3. Focus on you. Do only what makes you healthier and happier.
Stop worrying about them and their crisis. It's not a game. You can't turn the tables or fix it.

4. Have good boundaries.
Sit down and write them out. Know what you want, what is and isn't acceptable to you and stick to it.

5. Have a good support system.
You'll need people to talk to and unload on and get advice from. Be grateful for them! Pay them back with acts of kindness, no matter how small.

6. Do not worry about the OP.
They have nothing on you. Who would get involved with a married person and help the process of breaking up a family?
A very unhealthy person.

7. Remember, you will get through this and it does get better.

[Father5]

HI Pal,

    Time is on your side here. Just take a deep breathe and remember that nothing you say or do is going to fix or break her. This isn't about you. I also suffer from Co-Dependancy and at almosyt 4 years out I still get "baby dear on ice legs" if I see her or interact with her. Work on that and see your own IC and take the time to heal, This doesn't happen over night. There are also some CODA support groups around and online.

You got this PAL!

[Curiosity]

You’re getting great advice here. One of the recurring themes is around codependency, and how absolutely essential it is to get over that, in order to heal and move forward in a meaningful way. It’s so insidious… prior to BD, and even for a while after, it never would have occurred to me that I was deeply codependent. I was older than my W, I paid almost all the bills, did most of the home maintenance stuff, fed the pets, all of that. I had a steady job and  could financially support myself; I did financially support the two of us for years while she was in training. On top of that, I have always taken pride in being strong and not having to lean on people for emotional support (probably to the level that I could tend toward avoidance at times). How could I be codependent when I was so capable of taking care of myself? What I didn’t realize was how much I had grown to define myself as the caretaker, the fixer, the one who kept the trains running on time while she was the interesting one. I saw us as a unit, neither of us fully complete without the other. And it took a while to realize how limiting (and how damaging) that was.

Her journey and mine happened on relatively short timelines; still, we both had to make fundamental changes in how we viewed each other and how we viewed the relationship between us. Because the timeline has been so short, I don’t know that it feels like a completely new marriage - I wouldn’t even say it necessarily looks all that different on the surface, compared to the early days of our relationship. But what absolutely had to happen before we could get here was that I had to break out of the codependency, and get back to that place where I saw each of us as a complete, independent individual capable of living a full and satisfying life on our own. Then, I had to decide (as did my W) whether that already full and satisfying life could be made better by sharing it with each other.

[UrsaMajor]

My personal experience with MC during the crisis (which is still going on, just without me being involved) was that xW tried to use it to justify her divorce. The counsellor was not letting her get away with it so she quit going.

I went a few more times later for my own work and the counsellor (after ABD and separation) told me flat out that the MC was pointless as xW had no investment in it and was not seriously engaged but was rather "excuse fishing."

As always, sample of one.

[Zion]

My personal experience with MC during the crisis (which is still going on, just without me being involved) was that xW tried to use it to justify her divorce. The counsellor was not letting her get away with it so she quit going.

I went a few more times later for my own work and the counsellor (after ABD and separation) told me flat out that the MC was pointless as xW had no investment in it and was not seriously engaged but was rather "excuse fishing."

As always, sample of one.

This was my experience too!

[FaithWalker]

I am relieved that we didn't spend money on a MC even though I asked that he try counseling before bailing.  At the time, I thought there must be a marriage problem.  Thanks to my journey and the fine folks on this board I was able to see that it is not a marriage problem.

I'm just getting caught up on posts after being on my trip.  Any updates P?

[palladian]

So, been a while and as expected, the personal issues on her end are surfacing. After her 'if  you don't think I'm despicable, I want to go into MC', uttered when she was ill and probably feeling vulnerable, I probed several times to hear her perspective on MC:  either she dodges or says, well it can give us a better idea what went wrong, no mentioning of or considering to rebuild. Yesterday, when we had a talk about how much money I owe her to buy the house we lived in, I told her she will have to put her cards on the table sooner or later: I asked her if she wanted to be happy together, and her answer was that it was an impossible question because "she couldn't see how (here we go again), even though 'rationally' that would be a great option". Still too much confusion, still too much hurt.

The money discussion itself was pretty serene although she felt confused about the fact that I only took into account the money she contributed to the loan to see how to move forward, she told me she felt bad about the fact I didn't take into account all those things she did for us in the past. She didn't pressure, she actually started crying when she told me this. Seems a symptom of someone who didn't learn to set boundaries and got overextended.

Is it all sh¨¨? No, I had a call with her a few days ago and she acknowledged that she was facing problems rooted in her youth, that she was not able to communicate what she needed and she didn't stand up enough for herself, sounds like me as well by the way. She basically (finally) acknowledged the codependency issues which I signaled 3 months ago... So I consider that to be a big step forward. She is still grieving over her lover who dumped her though, so I don't think it is time yet to try to rebuild, I was considering to ask her to go to the theatre together, just to get out of these bad vibes. What is your perspective on this one? Likely too soon?

And me? Sometimes greaaaat days, sometimes utterly depressed, still doing as much socializing, taking care of my self, going for career goals, as I can though, my psychologist told me I'm doing great. So, I'll take that compliment

I notice that I'm struggling to detach, especially since we see each other on occasion related to our kids activities, the music concert was yesterday she was sitting 4 rows in front of me, felt tormented, but didn't want to pretend towards our daughter all was good. It would have felt fake.

The way I look at our relation and it sucks to acknowledge this, is that we built a marriage on a trauma bond, both heavily co-dependent, we wanted to make each other happy but didn't know how. Now that I know more about me, her, our codependency, reasons for BD, I feel extremely frustrated not (at least not now) to be able to put this knowledge to the test and see if we can rebuild. Some days I don't want to rebuild either, so my conclusion? I'm still clueless about how to move forward (yes, detaching I know but with the kid and joint activities it feels as if is almost impossible).

What's next is focusing on the now, getting the house property in order and then we'll see where we are. But I'm still standing, in many ways 

[Zion]

I am sorry Palladium! The breakdown of marriages can be so utterly confusing and complicated. I don't think I will ever understand it.

[Standing Strong]

Hey Pal 

That's a lot...... enough to overwhelm anyone. You're handling it really, really, good 

So she can see in a moment that there's stuff from her youth, that's really good. Of course being able to see it and putting forth the effort to deal with it are two very different things... but it is a big step.

Hang in there, you're getting stronger and stronger!! 

-SS

[palladian]

It has been a month since I posted already, wow, time flies.

Status report: I'm actively working on myself, getting rid of the codependency, I must admit that I have never felt better and see things improving in my personal life without worrying about my wife too much. I have taken an interesting turn on self-confidence and have the feeling I'm on the right track to clean up my own house. Regarding my wife, I'm cycling still, one day still believing 'she is the one', the other day when my rational side kicks in, acknowledging the many challenges she has, ranging from depression, low self-esteem and corresponding toxic behaviors, wondering why in heaven's name would I want to even consider rebuilding. I wondered if others here have had this and how long this generally lasts.

As for the wife, one word describes things best: turmoil. She was hit by a motor cycle when jogging where I had to emergency manage our daughter, I asked her if she needed any help but she said she was ok, when sending her a text if all was well after a few days, she just ignored it. The week after, she had covid, same pattern.

Today, she sent me a reminder that we need to go to the dentist tomorrow. Not sure what to read in that: control, still caring, nothing at all. Won't give it too much thoughts though, have better things to do. Anyway, I told her I was going to change the dentist appointment for myself as I didn't want any situations any more like 'before'. Then she answered: suit yourself, don't feel obliged. What I see in this, is she assumed I potentially did it for her and wanted to make sure I didn't go into too much trouble. I told her it was a positive choice for me, which I would think would also be beneficial to her, not having to end up in an awkward situation like a dentist waiting room. What strikes me is the pattern of being fearful to hurt each other, it is quite obviously still present.

Arranging the property of the house still is a b**ch: trouble choosing the path forward: I cannot buy her out unless I formally divorce, the other option is to stay married, have a property contract by ourselves but then we'll have to figure out a solution for the 10k loan she took from a family member which she needs to pay back by the end of the year and of course, she doesn't have the cash.

What a mess still, I notice I'm wrestling a bit with standing even though it is only 5 months since BD, I realize that is still short in MLC terms. My therapist says things are still way too fresh, but I'm like: I want to know if you want to at least come to the table to see if there is something to rebuild or not. Need to be more patient I guess.

Her journey and mine happened on relatively short timelines; still, we both had to make fundamental changes in how we viewed each other and how we viewed the relationship between us. Because the timeline has been so short, I don’t know that it feels like a completely new marriage - I wouldn’t even say it necessarily looks all that different on the surface, compared to the early days of our relationship. But what absolutely had to happen before we could get here was that I had to break out of the codependency, and get back to that place where I saw each of us as a complete, independent individual capable of living a full and satisfying life on our own. Then, I had to decide (as did my W) whether that already full and satisfying life could be made better by sharing it with each other.

@Curiosity: sounds like the path we could be on, how long did that entire process take you?

[UrsaMajor]

Pal,

This is not a sprint to the finish, it is an ultra-marathon slog through the mud.... We are talking years, not months... and that is assuming the Mid-Lifer actually does choose to deal with whatever issue s they have and finally get their head out of their .... fog...

You will likely find yourself all over the map wrt your MLCW. The thing is that, in that state, it is understandably difficult to make a decision that will have long-term effects/consequences.

Regarding the house and loan, if you have the cash to repay the loan, maybe you can have that as part of the property contract between you that you get $10k prior to the resolution of any other aspects if and when the house is sold? I am not a lawyer but that idea just occurred to me and depends if you can afford it or not.

"Being fearful of hurting one another" is one thing but walking around on eggshells is another. Your changing of your dentist appointment was for you. Full stop. The rest of the explanation is really not needed. If anything, you might have said that you did it for you to avoid any awkward situations like having to wait together in the dentist's waiting room. Saying that you thought it would also be beneficial for her is extra (and in my view) unneeded verbage that shows you are still trying to influence her emotional status. Whether it is awkward for her to wait with you is NOT your problem. If it is awkward for YOU to wait together, then it is and is something that you can do something about. Maybe something like "Thanks for the reminder. I have changed my appointment to a time more convenient for me."  Nothing more needs to be explained or justified.

[forthetrees]

5 months post BD is a blink of the eye and it seems like a unrealistic expectation that in this time window she could or would come to the table to say that would work on repairing the marriage. If you can live in the limbo state then standing can work for you but realize that it could be years.

As for the loan, I would consult a lawyer so that you are not on the hook for the 10K though since she took the loan while married and in the same house you may already be on the hook. If she has moved out, it benefits you to have her sign a statement that she has indeed moved out as of ________ date. You can then share that with your credit card company and get positioned to not be responsible for any new debt she incurs. If you are the primary and she is an authorized user of a credit card, give her some head´s up notice to get her own card and then cancel the authorized user status.

[Ready2Transform]

If you are the primary and she is an authorized user of a credit card, give her some head´s up notice to get her own card and then cancel the authorized user status.

This is what I had to do, as I was the account holder on all but one credit card and my xH was an authorized user. Canceled him off immediately after BD2 as he was still using the cards and paying no bills after he moved out at BD1. Would benefit you to get new cards issued if you think she'll have the numbers stored somewhere for auto pays or any other nefarious reasons. If you're both on cards jointly, cancel them and apply for new cards in your name only, if you need them. Go with the safest route on all of the financial issues. Things can turn fast. My xH bankrupted me, I almost lost my house, and 6 years after our D, he identity thieved me using one of my old cards. Take no integrity for granted from them.

[Curiosity]

Palladian, to answer your question about timeline: BD1 (ILYBINILWY) was in March 2020… exactly when Covid started shutting the world down. That was followed by BD2 (I can’t commit to our marriage) in late May 2020. She moved out for a month that summer, came back in July, left again at the beginning of October 2020. She stayed in an Airbnb for around 6 months that time, though her home office was still at our home so she was at the house almost every day. In early March 2021, she said she wanted to live at home again so she moved back in at the end of March (but she did not specifically commit to being back in our marriage). August 1, 2021 is the date that we had “the talk,” in which she told me she didn’t want to be separated anymore and she wanted me to be her person.

She had what I assumed was an EA, starting probably in September 2019, though in hindsight she probably started emotionally withdrawing from me 18 months to 2 years before that. It was really more of a one-sided limerent connection, as it turns out.

As for now… like I said, it’s not like a brand new relationship. I’m a little hesitant to trust fully, but working on that. She has been consistent in her commitment to me and our marriage - she has apologized for hurting me but I think she genuinely felt at the time like it was something she had to do. We don’t have deep and meaningful relationship talks but I feel like we are in a good place. I don’t know about reconnection versus reconciliation, but we’re somewhere in that range, I think.

I don’t know to what extent Covid affected her replay attempts, not to what extent it was affected by the fact that her mother was living in our home (with me) during the time W lived elsewhere. But that was the hand we were dealt. And ultimately, I have learned a lot from it all, about valuing my own individuality.

[palladian]

Regarding the house and loan, if you have the cash to repay the loan, maybe you can have that as part of the property contract between you that you get $10k prior to the resolution of any other aspects if and when the house is sold? I am not a lawyer but that idea just occurred to me and depends if you can afford it or not.

That is the scenario that I'm contemplating indeed

Saying that you thought it would also be beneficial for her is extra (and in my view) unneeded verbage that shows you are still trying to influence her emotional status.

Thanks, I needed to hear this, need to make it my mantra, it is counterintuitive though...

@Curiosity: thanks for sharing, really appreciate it. So basically little less than 2 years before things took a turn for the good. Still need to think if that type of timeline will an obstacle on my end because even though I detach as much as I can and doing a good job I think, the spontaneous overthinking still occurs and drains a lot of energy. As @UrsaMajor said, I'm all over the map: ranging from 'soul mate love' to apathy and seeing all the flaws. It seems I cannot be 'objective' about her because, yes, I still love that woman, even after all the hurt she caused.

[Curiosity]

Palladian, just because the path forward (detach, live your life on your terms) is simple to describe, please don’t take that to mean that it’s easy. I have had a FAR shorter timeline than most, but I was on her roller coaster as well as my own emotional roller coaster for most of the time that she was away. In fact, the only reason I was truly okay with her coming home, even though she hadn’t recommitted to our marriage, was because I had truly started to move forward on my own individual path - but only a few months before, I was deep in the well of “a part of me wishes we had never met.”

It’s not easy, it is a mountain we have to climb. But we do it so that, no matter what happens, we move forward on a path to real happiness, contentment, and purpose in our lives. And I get that maybe in some ways it’s easier for me to say that because my W has come back. But some of the most inspiring stories from this community are from people whose MLCer was a vanisher, and who never got anything resembling an apology or amends. But they rebuilt, and they serve as mentors and friends to others here.

It isn’t easy and maybe it isn’t supposed to be. But you can make it through this and get onto a better path forward, whatever path she takes.

[palladian]

Hi team HS, had a bit of an experiment to probe the level of fog with the wife and see where I'm at: I wrote her a couple of 'truth darts', something I never did before, because of good ol' codependence, I never dared to share my negative feelings. The first 'dart' was to share that every time she didn't answer a question, something she does regularly, I felt hurt and rejected. I ended the message with a direct question. Well, you know what the answer was of course, wait for it... yes, indeed complete silence...

Then we had an interesting exchange about our daughter: I asked her if it was ok to take her to a theme park with friends on a day she was with her, a yearly tradition which she thought could be revived in a couple of years (not) and which she urged to continue for the sake of our daughter. Early morning of that day, I hear that our daughter is ill and that she will be in her PJs when I come and get her. I was thinking: why doesn't she stay with you like in the normal schedule and why the hell can't you dress her. I shared that I didn't understand why she couldn't get dressed and it came across as I needed to handle it. Got a total victim reply saying this was extremely hurtful and this was an illustration of the problem that I assumed bad intent on her side. That one hurt because in the past I had a tendency to do that. So I told her in the past she was right, but I wanted to share how I felt, not assuming anything any more and that I know this was a 'me' problem. Felt like a good thing for myself to own up to my issues. I think by stating my 'me' problems, it makes me stronger and does signal that I have changed/am changing in a variety of ways.  She didn't reply anything further.

The third round was that I told her I was proud of her as she was doing something at her work which I know pushes her out of her comfort zone. She downplayed it massively, not able to just take a complement, an illustration - yet again - she isn't capable to love herself. It is probably weird/not done to give your MLC a compliment 

Yesterday, phone talk about money and the kid. She started with totally offloading general negative vibes on me, I didn't react but I noticed I didn't want to engage with her negative energy. The conversation went from laughing together to really tense but wanted to end it on a positive note, which I did.

After the call, I realised I really need to be attentive to is the level of gaslighting I'm confronted with and how it really messes with my head: remember the theme park moment right? She asked earlier last week if she could fetch our daughter while she was with me so they could go swimming. I was feeling angry and hurt about the question: my daughter has been taken from me 50% of the time and she wanted to get some time with her while she was with me, just because she felt like it. I told her that is not acceptable to me, and she said it was just as a 'compensation' for the theme park. Yeah, the theme park we didn't visit because my daughter was ill and I had to fetch her in her PJs... She brings it with so much conviction, I almost fell for it. I need to be vigilant.

For the rest all is well, the entire MLC is the biggest gift for my career, so thank you MLC. Must admit though I'm struggling to detach mentally, I notice I keep thinking of my wife. FFS. Codependence is a rough puppy. On a better note, I'm working on my self-esteem, today I even flirted (innocently) with someone in the bakery. That is something I would never have dared in the past, have always been low-self esteem I guess. I also talk in a more relaxed way to total strangers, I think it is part of my 'upgrade my self-esteem' program 

Anyway, onwards!

[MadLuv]

That does sound like some progress . I have learned for me detachment is not the fact X or the situation crosses my mind as much as when it does now it doesn’t bring the pain it once did. More of a indifference. Only took a year and a half 🤪😜

I think on the daughter if it something you feel you can bend on with her requests then do it. You never know when you will want that same request. Also, maybe asking your daughter?? Mom wants to do this if you want to. It’s totally up to you. I think when your D see’s you both working together for her betterment it is all good!!

But I also think as the parent you know what’s best for your daughter and you

[palladian]

I think on the daughter if it something you feel you can bend on with her requests then do it. You never know when you will want that same request. Also, maybe asking your daughter?? Mom wants to do this if you want to. It’s totally up to you. I think when your D see’s you both working together for her betterment it is all good!!

But I also think as the parent you know what’s best for your daughter and you

Hey Madluv, you are right to be flexible so I could get a return the favour and I considered that, but to be honest, I'm done with bending and I'm convinced it wouldn't work both ways at the moment, so no 'benefit' to me. In the past I would have bended because I wanted to please my wife and would have felt good about it. But that is done, done being a low boundary person. This is a consequence of her leaving our family.  I had something planned that afternoon already with my daughter so it would have been impossible anyway, but the fact that my wife didn't even bother asking if I had something planned and just asked because she felt like it, proves to show that it's all about her still, and not about our daughter, let alone our marriage. I wish it were different, but I guess I need to find peace with reality still...

[Treasur]

Fwiw I think you are wise to consider fairly firm boundaries when/if you are dealing with a person not given to normal reciprocity and if you are unravelling yourself from a bit of co-dependence.

Perfectly ok for your w/xw to ask.
Perfectly ok for you to say no if it is not convenient. That’s normal in life, isn’t it, with all kinds of things people might ask from us? (She may not see it that way, but that’s not your problem. She may of course say no in retaliation to future requests from you to have your child when it is ‘her’ time, true enough, but you can’t control that and tbh she has the right to say no too regardless of how you feel about it. It’s just a sad practicality of shared custody and divorce.)

You do you and enjoy your time with your daughter and enjoy your GAL activities when your daughter is not with you. You didn’t choose any of this so all you can do is your best with what you have. And that’s not nothing, is it?

[MadLuv]

Palladium- totally agree. You look out for you and set those boundaries. I think our gut is our best guide for our own situation as each of us and our situations are so unique, even though the similarities are insane!

[palladian]

My god, MLC is a beast...

 I just finished a call about the financial arrangement for our house with my w. When I rang her, she was surprised, she didn't know why I was calling, even though she had proposed the call slot and even though it is one of the things that she claims is stressing her out like f***. I had to take a reaaally deep breath to stay silent and act politely. She seemed relieved about the solution which I figured out (and which above all helps me to gain personal financial security and buys more time before divorcing).

Then she started talking about her holiday with our daughter, referring to it just as 'our holiday's' about her sister, she started crying, we had a laugh, she acted just like nothing had happened. I gave her some words of support, engaged positively with her for a bit and closed things down. When she cried, I felt my body hurting, wanting to go to her and comfort her or at least say so,   but then my brain kicked in and said, 'try to stay distant, remember what your psychologist said yesterday".

The session yesterday with him was extremely valuable as he pointed out that I needed to focus on one thing: my expectations from a relation, something I am not used to doing at all and keep that as my north star, with potential reconciliation or a new relationship. That's why yesterday I made a list of 'non-negotiables', let me share them, I hope someone here in the HS community finds it useful:

I want someone who...

takes an active interest in who I am and what I do.

is self-confident enough to allow herself to be vulnerable, to allow me into her insecurities and is willing to share that with me in words.

does not take assumptions on my choices and actions but dares to ask what I mean when something feels bad.

knows for herself what she wants in her life, or at least wants to work it out in a positive way and shares that with me.

Dares to be really intimate and lets me be who I am sexually and shows that in reverse.

Accepts my feelings about something.

enjoys her own life and lets me be part of it.

doesn't wait but takes a proactive approach to her problems.

After the financial agreement, I intend to share this with her after some time, and ask her if she feels this list to be unreasonable or unfeasible. I'll ask her to do the same - when she is ready because she will need to be out of the fog first - to see if she considers my 'expectations' reasonable and if I can and am willing to fulfill hers or not. If the answer to either is negative, I now intend to file for divorce myself, say goodbye and move towards a new chapter in life.

Now I'm going to go for a run, my body is acting very weird, my stomach and chest zone ache from emotional pain.

[FaithWalker]

I remember that emotional pain ache.  I thought my heart was actually breaking.  I hope that run helped some.

[readytofixmyselffirst]

Hello,

Hey Madluv, you are right to be flexible so I could get a return the favour and I considered that, but to be honest, I'm done with bending and I'm convinced it wouldn't work both ways at the moment, so no 'benefit' to me. In the past I would have bended because I wanted to please my wife and would have felt good about it. But that is done, done being a low boundary person. This is a consequence of her leaving our family.  I had something planned that afternoon already with my daughter so it would have been impossible anyway, but the fact that my wife didn't even bother asking if I had something planned and just asked because she felt like it, proves to show that it's all about her still, and not about our daughter, let alone our marriage. I wish it were different, but I guess I need to find peace with reality still...

This is not a consequence for leaving, it is a boundary for you to maintain your self esteem and time with your daughter. You had plans with your daughter and it was your time. From my perspective, you were right to stick up for yourself and in the past, you would have folded. I would have folded as well. However, that is not a healthy relationship and she needs to respect and honor your wishes as well.

After the financial agreement, I intend to share this with her after some time, and ask her if she feels this list to be unreasonable or unfeasible. I'll ask her to do the same - when she is ready because she will need to be out of the fog first - to see if she considers my 'expectations' reasonable and if I can and am willing to fulfill hers or not. If the answer to either is negative, I now intend to file for divorce myself, say goodbye and move towards a new chapter in life.

Your list is very good and I see no problem with them as a foundation towards a healthy relationship with anybody. But enable people who you let into your heart to explore and define them. For example, accepts my feelings about something. That's very wide open for interpretation. I think you if you do reconcile or find a new relationship that you discuss a few of your acceptables. (I try to avoid non-negotiables as I see all healthy relationships as a never ending process of negotiations)

If you are going to talk to your wife about your list, I would limit it to one or two and only if she brings up anything. I am glad to see that you have recovering and seeing that you have the power to save the marriage or move on as well.

I hope you enjoyed your run. Just remember that you are early in a marathon and this process takes time. Lots of time. Just be there for your daughter and continue to reclaim the essence of who you are and what makes you special as an individual.

Have a great day,

((((Ready))))

[palladian]

Thanks Faithwalker, thanks Ready, the run was nourrishing, I notice that if my mind goes in overdrive, running gives some happy hormones 

@Ready - You are definitely right to emphasize the boundary part again, thanks for reminding me of it. You're touching an interesting point on acceptables and non-negotiables. I'm at a point, obviously with the risk of cycling, where I am convinced I'm better off alone than with someone who is not able to check the non-negotiables. I do get your point on 'negotiation' and compromise, that being said, related to 'accept my feelings', I just meant not to gaslight me, yes that low of a bar, not necessarily they have to be agreed upon, just that they are acknowledged.

I also wanted to share that for those who are really struggling with depression and emotional pain, there are ways for relief. There is a netflix series, changing your mind, which touches upon this. I explored it this weekend and it was profound, also vastly reducing the emotional pain around my chest & stomach for the moment, I'm curious if it will return. It brought me additional peace with the situation and a level of acceptance which I'm surprised to experience.

I finished the draft of the home ownership agreement and sent it to her yesterday, fingers crossed there is no Monster which does a 180 and wants to move in a different direction.

Onwards!

[Zion]

My sister just recommended “Changing Your Mind” this week. She said it was something I should watch.

[palladian]

My sister just recommended “Changing Your Mind” this week. She said it was something I should watch.

I tried, it gives so much depth, reduces the physical pain and gives a different - more healing - perspective on our LBS and MLC journey...

[Evermore]

My sister just recommended “Changing Your Mind” this week. She said it was something I should watch.

I looked for this last night but could only find something called How to Change Your Mind (which appeared to be about using psychedelic drugs). Is this the program you’re suggesting? Might be because I’m in Aus that I can’t find the other on Netflix?   

[palladian]

My sister just recommended “Changing Your Mind” this week. She said it was something I should watch.

I looked for this last night but could only find something called How to Change Your Mind (which appeared to be about using psychedelic drugs). Is this the program you’re suggesting? Might be because I’m in Aus that I can’t find the other on Netflix?

Actually, that's the one The second episode talks about deep emotional pain & depression which made me think of my own experience of the last 6 months and probably a lot of other LBS here. I experienced it first hand, and it is true what they say, the pain is relieved. I wouldn't consider it lightly though.

[palladian]

Just a post to channel the massive emotional pain I'm feeling currently. Just had a practical meeting with my wife, saw her for the first time in about a month, she looked really good, all dressed up, nails done. When leaving she mentioned of the cuff she is going for tango lessons, something which I had looked forward to myself doing with her. I felt my stomach twisting and turning, I asked her who she was going with, probably shouldn't have, and she has a tango teacher so she can go dancing with another dude she met apparently. Are we potentially at OM2 already? Should I just ask her?

My entire body is hurting deeply, I feel all my nerves burning. She's coming back in 30' to drop off something. I will do the best I can to detach, but I know I really suck at not showing how I feel, she will probably have seen I was devastated by her remark. This really hurts, how the f*** do you all stand and I wonder for the sake of my own health if it wouldn't be better to just throw the towel and file for divorce myself.

Also, I registered on an online dating site, probably to just get some validation. I think I'm lost a bit between standing, detaching and moving forward with life altogether. Sh**

[xyzcf]

My entire body is hurting deeply, I feel all my nerves burning

The pain is indescribable but I think each of us can relate very well to what you are feeling. Any information about them and their lives, things that do not include us, things that we wanted to do with them, "new" people in their lives...all of it hits us in our gut and sends us into a "high anxiety" state...the fight/flight/freeze response........

I think this is why many LBSers choose not to see their spouses. Our spouses do not seem at all aware that when they tell us about their lives, that it hurts us deeply...beyond what any words can really explain.

I didn't block him from my life and over years, and I mean years, I am desensitized enough that it doesn't shake me when we spend time together...although it's still not easy but it's my choice for various reasons.

I did however not see him physically for 19 months a year after BD #1 and right after BD#2  and I only interacted with him by text and email. Even those messages sent me in a downward spiral.

Learning techniques to bring you back to a calmer state of mind, or in some cases, medication can turn off the fight/flight/freeze response and bring you back to a state of equilibrium.

I found talking to a very close friend who would listen to me without judgement was probably the most important thing that helped me to crawl out of that dark place, meditation, yoga, exercise, watching a funny movie or tv program, walking...so much walking...they all helped.

Acceptance takes a very long time. It's inconceivable to us how they could change so much, physically, what they like, their core values..it is a great deal to process.

Intense therapy (and that might mean twice weekly for months) can also help if you find the right therapist.

We are here for you and hopefully others will drop by with their suggestions.

[Thunder]

Oh how we feel your pain, palladian.    You are not alone.

My bomb drop was back in 2011, even though my life is good now, your words....or any newer person's, brings it all back to me.
The pain, the confusion, the anxiety, the heart ache.  All of it, and I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy.

It's all such a shock to our body and our mind it will take some time to adjust to.
Trust me, you will not always feel like this.  Xyzcf gave you good examples of some things to try to help you with the anxiety.

I walked so much when my H went into his crazy crisis, 4, 5, 6 miles a day. and it did help.
Working put at a gym helps.  Talking with a good therapist helps.

If you have trouble eating, try small amounts or drink protein shakes.  All I could eat for 3 weeks were oranges. 
But don't worry your appetite will come back.  You will come back.  It will just take that darn time.

What I would advise against are the dating sites.   Oh I tried them too, but soon realized I was nowhere near ready to date anyone, I was a mess, so after a couple of weeks I deleted my account.  Another person will not make you feel better, but that is your decision to make.  No judging here.

Maybe don't ask your W what she is doing.  It's self induced pain you don't need.
Just take good care of yourself, palladian.

{{Big Hug}}

[readytofixmyselffirst]

Hello,

I am so sorry that you are going through this.

I asked her who she was going with, probably shouldn't have, and she has a tango teacher so she can go dancing with another dude she met apparently. Are we potentially at OM2 already? Should I just ask her?

You are in a hard spot. She got dumped by OW1 and  appears to be moving on. I have not spoke to her or know her at all, so just like you, I am guessing.

My entire body is hurting deeply, I feel all my nerves burning. She's coming back in 30' to drop off something. I will do the best I can to detach, but I know I really suck at not showing how I feel, she will probably have seen I was devastated by her remark. This really hurts, how the f*** do you all stand and I wonder for the sake of my own health if it wouldn't be better to just throw the towel and file for divorce myself.

I would be hurting as well. Her actions and comments would have increased anyone's hope. The fact that she looked real nice didn't help either. Just know this, she dropped that comment to hurt you. She will never admit it, but you don't drop a dime like that just for an fyi. Doesn't it seem to coincide with the house agreement?  Monster takes place in many ways.

As far as standing or throwing in the towel, I would be lying if I didn't tell you I wasn't all over the place as well. between days of feeling strong while standing and could do so forever to I am done and I want her out of my life now. So it is understandable.

Also, I registered on an online dating site, probably to just get some validation. I think I'm lost a bit between standing, detaching and moving forward with life altogether. Sh**

I understand the need for validation. Just getting noticed is a great boost to the self-esteem. I only speak for one, but if you are going to test the waters, best be unhitched. If you present yourself as available, be really available. I didn't date until after the divorce was done and she moved out of the house, out of the state lol.  I was then truly free. You wouldn't want to raise and dash someone else's feelings because you are only half way in the relationship process.

From my experience, most women won't respond to the "separated" status as they don't want the drama of the other going back or dealing with the angry spouse. That typically leaves a small selection who bring a lot of issues on their own. My advice is to heal first and then if you feel emotionally stable yourself to venture into the dating world. Then you will have completely detached from your wife and can respond to the challenges and rewards of a new relationship.

Just go slow and take care of yourself. Don't let your MLCer continue to hurt you. After all, would you want to be married to the person she is now? She may look great, but based upon her actions, is she someone you really want to spend your life with? Detach from her nonsense and let her deal with her own demons while you heal yourself.

This is all hard and the more you focus on your own health and well being, the better you will be in the long run, regardless of the outcome of your marriage.

Have a great day,

(((((Ready)))))

[forthetrees]

Agreeing with Ready that she dropped that comment as a zinger. As for the dating, are you giving off a centered vibe and an open heart. Maybe foster a dog if you want unvarnished unconditional love:)

The emotions all over the place are because our hearts and heads take a looooong time to synch up. It´s yeoman´s work to wrap one´s mind around this. One of the hardest things for me was learning and accepting that doing nothing was an option. By hitting the pause button on making decisions, your heart and mind come into equilibrium and agreement- then you can make the best decisions for you.

[Tsun]

Aah Palladian, that sounds like a brutal exchange and I agree with the others that that bit of information was likely dropped to get a reaction out of you. Is it possible to do these practical meetings virtual, or by phone? It also sounds like, for now, the less you know the better, so I wouldn't ask if there is an OM. Instead, perhaps try to redirect your thoughts about her back to you. What would help you right now? What do yo want? What do you need?

I read your opening post and your situation sounds very similar to mine (FOO issues, codependency). I also recognize that instant knee-jerk reaction to find external validation elsewhere. Nevertheless, I think that for us (codependents), we need to learn to find this validation inside. That way we don't need to look to others to get it. I assume you are familiar with the book Codependent No More?

Hang in there Palladian, we are here for you and going through the exact same thing. It will get better again, virtual hugs for you :-(.

[palladian]

I really appreciate the supportive messages, she came over acted all happy happy joy joy, which I know for a fact she is not. My gut and chest, 5 hours after the encounter are still burning.

I'm really curious and serious about the question why do we allow them to hurt us so intensely? Because we love them, or because we don't love ourselves enough? What if we divorce, move on with our lives and ban them out of our lives as much as possible and see if we'd want them back once they're back? Isn't that much better than just standing and allowing us to get hurt over and over again? When I read that after a decade the pain is still there, why do we allow this? 

@Ready: I asked who she was dancing with, so that's one on me. Maybe she did tell me that she was going to dance on purpose though, that was unasked for. I texted her a friendly message to tell her that the tango story put me off balance as I thought this would bring us closer together back when we were still a couple and I asked her if she had something with her dance partner to tell me. We agreed we would first arrange the house property agreement, something I drafted and she said 'was fairly good already' and then see if we could salvage our marriage. Feels like a punch in the face.

@Thunder & @xyz: I'm a pretty spiritual person so I will be able to get a grip on this, I also do sports and work on bettering myself. That being said, I am really wondering if that intense pain is worth the while.

@Tsun: we had to have a parental talk with our daughter, that's why she was here, other ones are digital or via text. I agree with the validation point but the physical feeling is sooo intense. I didn't know the book, will take a look at it.

As for the dating, I really had the feeling I was steady in my shoes for the last few weeks, I was really in a place where I was like: "my wife is the preferred woman I'd consider to start a relationship with provided she can find herself in my "non-negotiables", but I want to meet other women too" It is just the bloody encounter again that put me back to square one, and I really don't want to have that every single time. Since we have an 8-year old kid, I don't want to be up and down for a decade. Also, and this is a topic I haven't seen on the forum: what do you do with sex? Multiple years of nothing?

Finally, I want to apologize for not being more active into others' people threads, I feel like I have nothing to offer of substance and to be blunt, I find it difficult to read the misery we're in sometimes.

Today is exactly 6 months since we separated as well. Today has been a rough day.

[palladian]

I just received a long angry text message, monstering all over the place, I'm the bad guy for telling me how I feel, that there was nothing with her dance partners, she told me she was even irritated by the fact that she noticed I was off balance. Oh and she pointed out that she didn't feel like saying if she'd have someone else until it would impact our daughter, "that's the type of privacy we should give each other"

OMG. Well, that's a clear f'you to what we discussed. Serves me right. No logic or reason will help whatsoever. Time for bed now, processing and will send a nice reply tomorrow, not now, now I just want to use all capitals in the message...

[Thunder]

Palladian very typical Monstering.  I believe it's guilt that angers her.  It's not you.

You have no right to question her about anything. 

I would just stop asking her anything.  No more questions.
I'm sorry but it will only bring out Monster.

I would have NO RELATIONSHIP talks with her at all.   Ever.

[xyzcf]

I'm really curious and serious about the question why do we allow them to hurt us so intensely? Because we love them, or because we don't love ourselves enough? What if we divorce, move on with our lives and ban them out of our lives as much as possible and see if we'd want them back once they're back? Isn't that much better than just standing and allowing us to get hurt over and over again? When I read that after a decade the pain is still there, why do we allow this?

You will get several different opinions from people on HS which is great. and we don't always agree which is also great. You get to accept what is right for you, your family and your situation.

I don't agree that what she said was said on purpose. I really belong to the "believe in the MLC club" and that some MLCers have no clue what their words and actions do to us....probably due to my own story..while others here have had "monster behavior" and feel the MLCer does things on purpose to provoke us. That has not been my experience.

To answer your statement above:

We hurt because we love them. We had no warning that this was going to happen and no control over whether they return to our family or not. The betrayal/abandonment/ the loss of our "best friend", lover and partner in life is TRAUMATIC. It truly is  the world as we know it has exploded and we are left saying what the f...k happened? We cannot necessarily control how our bodies and minds react to this.

It doesn't always "work" to divorce, block them from our life and get into a new relationship..and even when it does work, there will always be pain from this which is why we sometimes refer to it as PTSD. The pain can subside and often will require quite a bit of therapy...but when you read the stories here, sometimes out of the blue, even those who feel they are "over " it all will be triggered by a memory, an event and they will wonder why they still get shaken many years later.

There is nothing wrong with us. We trusted our partners completely and could never imagine what they would do...and it is very difficult to get our head around it..even many years later.

That to me is where acceptance comes in...I reached a point of understanding and acceptance that freed me from the trauma response that I experienced.

You have  an 8 year old and that also comes into the equation....because this is traumatic for her as well and being the "sane" parent, you probably want to try and help her through this.

So blocking your MLCer...many people here do just that. Some find a new partner and live happily ever after. I choose a different route.

I wanted to have some part of our family still existing but more importantly, I wanted to be healed enough in my own self, to be whole enough that I can be in his company without it shaking me as it once did. This was really important to me and due to our particular situation it works.

If I were with another man, I could not spend the time with him and our daughter..it wouldn't be right...but I am many many years along the path.

As for your very real question:

what do you do with sex? Multiple years of nothing?

Unfortunately that is true for me.

Others will engage in relationships, some will work out, others will cause more pain. I guess it depends on how much you are willing to risk your heart for.

Today is exactly 6 months since we separated as well. Today has been a rough day.

It has been. It will be. But you will find a way through....your wife, not so sure she will even be able to resolve her issues and that really is the tragedy in all this.

[Treasur]

I just received a long angry text message, monstering all over the place, I'm the bad guy for telling me how I feel, that there was nothing with her dance partners, she told me she was even irritated by the fact that she noticed I was off balance. Oh and she pointed out that she didn't feel like saying if she'd have someone else until it would impact our daughter, "that's the type of privacy we should give each other"

OMG. Well, that's a clear f'you to what we discussed. Serves me right. No logic or reason will help whatsoever. Time for bed now, processing and will send a nice reply tomorrow, not now, now I just want to use all capitals in the message...

First of all, well done on NOT replying to the message in the moment.
Secondly, i’d suggest that you consider not replying to it at all. Why? Well, two reasons. First, your w’s message essentially just told you that she doesn’t want to hear your opinions or feelings so it isn’t rational to dole out some more and expect a different reaction, is it? Secondly - and more importantly - bc it is your opportunity to practice disengaging from her emotions as an active player and that is part of the process of taking good care of your own emotional wellbeing.

The questions you posed before as xyzcf said are questions that we all eventually find our own answers to. We don’t all find the same answers, but we do with time find answers that work for us as individuals that we can live with. The key I think is to let the answers come rather than try to chase them down. And, for a while perhaps, to accept that we may have lots of feelings but no clear answers.

I am one who is a little more cynical about MLCers intent than xyzcf perhaps. I don’t think MLCers usually act with some grand Machiavellian plan but I do think they know, to some degree, that what they are doing is hurtful, unfair or unreasonable. I think they just don’t care much.....and that’s a hard pill for an LBS to swallow. And I think MLC spouses are highly reactive, emotions cranked up to 11 like teenagers really, so when we get Monster it is almost always bc they don’t much like how our responses or predictable life consequences make them feel. So, they blame us and throw a tantrum which is usually, like a teenager, intended to get us to stfu, do what they want or to make themselves feel better. It’s a weird thing with MLCers that they seem to have a rather twisted version of codependency where they continue to react as if we are part of their ‘problem’ long after they have decided to leave us and plough their own furrow.....where they blame us for things that were simply not our choice or are our responsibility. To that extent, I believe that ‘monstering’ is ‘done on purpose’ even if it is an emotionally reactive purpose if that makes sense. At a simple level, what you said made your wife feel uncomfortable....she doesn’t like that so she reacted to push you, and that feeling, away.

Please understand that I am not saying this is right or fair or reasonable.....just that it seems to be how it is right now. Acceptance as xyzcf talks about. It is why we talk about detachment here as getting off HER emotional rollercoaster and, frankly, attending to one’s own natural LBS rollercoaster without her involvement in it. Bc tbh that’s hard enough, isn’t it? Imho it is deeply painful to accept that one’s spouse no longer cares about your thoughts, feelings or needs in a healthy appropriate way....that their emotional well towards you is dry. But is is usually largely true. And if one accepts that this is how it is right now, one has to work out where to take those thoughts, feelings and needs where they will be heard and valued.......what is worth saying and asking and what is not, what is sane to expect based on what you see in an MLC spouse and what is not.

But imho the very first step is some level of acceptance that the expectations you reasonably had before of them no longer hold true, for whatever reason. And then to figure out the best way for you to respond to that in any interactions you have with them. I think we all go through an extended process of scratching our heads, at best, at the chasm between what feels to us like reasonable expectations and what actually happens. Different in different situations.....for some LBS, it’s about MLCers as parents, for some it’s about them wanting our sympathy, for some it’s about being threatened legally, financially or physically being MLCers or affair partners. But there is always a hell of a gap between what we expect and what we get  . But the solutions that keep our sanity and wellbeing safe can vary.....sometimes disengaging in our actions is enough, sometimes we need boundaries, sometimes we need to limit the amount of contact we have with them, sometimes we need third party protection by involving the law in some way.

But imho accepting that it is how it currently is, even if that feels insane or unfair or unkind, is a necessary first step. Accepting perhaps that the metaphorical stove is hot so we should stop touching it. Accepting the limits of what we can control or influence about someone else’s choices and behaviour, regardless of what we think about it.

And at a simple level for you right now, perhaps that starts by accepting that your wife does not want to hear your opinion or feelings about her tango dancing exploits, so there is no need to repeat yourself or let her draw you into any further discussion about it. Jmo.

[palladian]

12 hours later, what a ride, the physical aching has subsided, stayed up til 4AM. The latest updates:

Message sent, I gave w a vulnerable truth bomb as some points from the past she made were valid, stuff to be found in my own codependent history. I also clearly set my boundaries and expected outcomes towards this whole mess: either her being a lesson to learn to love myself or a scar which will strengthen our relationship. Time will tell.

As for dating: I followed your reminders of something I knew. The emotional pain shows this is not the right moment at all and would only continue the hurt with someone else. I turned down a date with a really nice woman explaining her where I was emotionally. She reacted in the best possible way: understanding, saying she didn't want to be in these situations, telling me I could contact her again if I was divorced. Proud of myself to have handled this in such a way, in the past I would have had an codependent/anxious reaction and would have hidden the emotional mess. It feels like an important step towards healing my own codependent relationship needs.

@treasur: Thanks for the reflections, it helps getting things into perspective. I agree the MLC is incapable of caring.  Regarding the intentional part, my perspective seems to be similar to the one of @xyzcf. I'm a scholar in law but also in behavioral sciences and I know that emotions steer our behavior in ways we cannot imagine, I don't believe there is real conscious intent of hurting me, her brain is going haywire and she is projecting her own hurt on me, but that is a pretty "natural" process. The best thing I think I can do, even though my brain and body sometimes tells me differently which makes it sooo hard, is try to calm her brain down, if that makes any sense at all.

Anyway, back from yesterday's crash, onwards!

[Treasur]

Regarding the intentional part, my perspective seems to be similar to the one of @xyzcf. I'm a scholar in law but also in behavioral sciences and I know that emotions steer our behavior in ways we cannot imagine, I don't believe there is real conscious intent of hurting me, her brain is going haywire and she is projecting her own hurt on me, but that is a pretty "natural" process. The best thing I think I can do, even though my brain and body sometimes tells me differently which makes it sooo hard, is try to calm her brain down, if that makes any sense at all.

And that is an example of one of the things we get to decide for ourselves as LBS, isn’t it? It can be a tricky balance in life to hold someone accountable for their own behaviour whilst also explaining it to ourselves with a more compassionate eye, balancing explanation vs excuse.

I’m puzzled though about why you think it is your job, or even within your influence, to ‘calm her brain down’. Unless you have some hidden superpowers lol. Surely your wife is responsible for her own brain and her own emotional regulation? Or did you mean not adding fuel to her fire by how you respond?

It always made sense to me though when UM used the metaphor of being run over by a truck and seriously injured. The reasons, or intentions, of the driver may influence the longer-term story we tell ourselves about what happened to us and how we view the driver, true enough. Yet it does not change the severity of our injuries and what we need to do to recover from them. It isn’t an either/or imho. And as LBS, I think that forces us to be honest with ourselves about the scale of our injuries and the priority of our own rehabilitation process regardless of our POV about the driver.....

It is my choice - and the one I still live with - that it did not feel right to me to hate someone I loved so much for so long. But, at the same time, as far as I could see, my h did not want my love or presence in his life. And he was doing things that were threatening and damaging to me and my life. It was a different kind of love to me, but still love, to accept that (eventually) without understanding it and let him go. It was a different kind of love to me, but still love, to remove myself from a situation that continued to cause me almost unmanageable trauma so I could focus solely on my own rehabilitation without carrying the mental burden of his or taking more damage. I am not saying this is the only way to do it....I am saying that I found, bit by bit, that it was the only way I could do it and survive. We don’t always know where those deeply personal lines are until we hit them. And truthfully, just like the truck metaphor, I have scars and some wonky bits that I did not have before and I had to find a way to make peace with that too.

None of this is easy, is it?

[MadLuv]

. It was a different kind of love to me, but still love, to remove myself from a situation that continued to cause me almost unmanageable trauma so I could focus solely on my own rehabilitation without carrying the mental burden of his or taking more damage. I am not saying this is the only way to do it....I am saying that I found, bit by bit, that it was the only way I could do it and survive

this!!!  I think the hardest part is getting to a place where you really realize you are not dealing with the same person with the same rationale and that nothing you do can help them. When you finally can whether it be exhaustion or being hit over the head 20 times by the truth 2x4’s you can finally turn to YOU!! There is no magical time line for this, but there does seem to be a magical moment that you realize that you aren’t in that same level of pain and your total day isnt focused on them and their is some peace in that. It doesn’t resolve everything, but it does clear your head enough to finally feel a little but more sane. And sane is good in this insanity!!

[xyzcf]

I have always thought that if this had not happened in my life, that I would find the whole MLC process fascinating.  I can relate some of his behaviors looking at Erik Erickson's Stages of Development. In discussions here and in my own witnessing of the "age" or "stage" I have "seen" him as a three year old, an 8 year old, about 11, 17 and what I see now is summed up in the word "playboy"..only he's 67 years old and to me anyway, seems very bizarre.

Regarding the intentional part, my perspective seems to be similar to the one of @xyzcf.

I had meant to add something to this yesterday, is that trying to define what their actions mean, or trying to guess why they are doing things can be tricky. Because we are not in their heads and so it could be completely different to what we think they mean...as UM often states "it is like trying to taste the color green".

I spent way too much time with other LBSers discussing what our spouses actions/words meant...but I have no proof that anything we thought was the truth. Trying to figure out what is going on in their brains takes away from the energy that can be turned towards working on our own personal healing and growth.

We just do not know for sure .....and if we "believe" something to be the truth (without being able to verify it with the actual person because even if you did talk to them, their perspective changes from one moment to the next), our belief could be totally off base.

Because I also believe that this life experience shattered my inner core, and the therapy that really helped me was mind/body work, I am a very big fan of trauma therapy.  The Polyvagal Theory is one of the methods my therapist used that literally changed my life. Here is one link and if you scroll down, have a look at the chart because below the written stuff......it clicked in my brain almost immediately...and was a game changer in my healing work.

https://www.rubyjowalker.com/polyvagal_theory.html

However, you are 6 months into this and I agree with treasur

The key I think is to let the answers come rather than try to chase them down. And, for a while perhaps, to accept that we may have lots of feelings but no clear answers.

In a sense, our journey mirrors the stages of grief.

Persistent, traumatic grief can cause us to cycle (sometimes quickly) through the stages of grief: denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance. These stages are our attempts to process change and protect ourselves while we adapt to a new reality.Jun 8, 2020

The Stages of Grief: Accepting the Unacceptablehttps://www.washington.edu › counseling › 2020/06/08

We go back and forth between stages, it's not linear.....and it takes time...more for some than others.

One last thought that just came to mind...one of our members, DontGiveUp (has an amazing understanding of MLC)...I am fortunate that he lives in the same town as I do and he was one, along with a few other LBSers who spent hours together as we tried to figure out what was going on in their heads.....this remains with me years later..he said to me:

"xyzcf, what part of the word crisis don't you understand?"


Must have been significant because I can still hear him say it and it struck me like a bolt of lightning ..he probably laid that line on me about 11 years ago.

Breathe, just taking 5 minutes to breath in and out, focusing on your breath will help to calm your nervous system.

I hope today is better.

[Treasur]

Gob-smackingly good explanation of polyvagal theory, xyzcf - thank you for sharing it.

[Biscuit]

I'm sorry if I'm being ignorant, but can I ask what a 2x4 is? other than a piece of wood!

[forthetrees]

2x4- reality check that is offered without the recipient requesting it.

[palladian]

Over 4 months ago since my last visit here!

I wanted to come back to share some experiences, some which could be beneficial to others.  First off, overall I'm good, actually I haven't been as good in a véry long time, it feels like my life has taken a positive U-turn. I'm still separated, tomorrow actually I should be signing the agreement on our house, so that would clear the way for a next phase either towards a reconsiliation or a divorce. Both are fine.

I have figured out for myself why I have been feeling like I have for the last 41 years, why I got together with my wife and how I wanted to move forward. The hurt described in my last post of the summer has subsided. I was tremendously helped by a more profound psychedelic experience. It was one of the most intense feelings, being able to access 'grief' in a way a psychologist would have taken years for (my therapists words

The pain in my body has been released after intentionally exploring 3 things: getting in touch with my inner child who has been hurt tremendously, saying goodbye to my wife, accepting that I cannot and don't have to save her and finally, figuring out who my crush of 4 years ago was to me. The trip as such would require half of a book, but the short version is that I cried like I have never cried before but felt as if the co-dependent emotional connection had been severed. A tremendous release. I saw ourselves as two kids holding hands where I let go of her hand... It also activated a more compassionate perspective towards myself, supported by some friends. I came to the full realization - I know this is soooo obvious - that all really starts with myself. It is something that is carved in my awareness now, and it is up to me and me alone to move life forward. I'm finally at a place where I'm actively choosing 'me' as the first and most important person to take care of. I figured out that because of pure survival-stress, I showed fawn behavior, one of the reactions next to fight, flight and fear. It feels like the co-dependency has left my body and mond.

I also picked up dating late summer, originally as an experiment to see what it did to me. I went on a couple of dates with one woman which went quite well, but she broke it off until I was divorced. Made sense and gave me a first hand experience of showing healthy boundaries. Then another date with someone who showed interest but I didn't and for the first time in 25 years I said clearly 'no' as she was crossing a boundary. I was so proud of myself. Then, a third date with a nice woman, still seeing her, she is avoidant but I'm acting calmly and supportive without 'taking over'. I value her presence and in a way it feels like practice how a good relationship on my end actually looks like, either with her, my wife, my crush or someone else. I feel no more neediness, I see the value of my marriage (giving safety to each other, I now have a valuable relationship, as it is not for life but we're enjoying ourselves. I also want to explore the relationship with my 'crush' further, I have been quite candid about my perspective and situation. 

I have learnt to accept that I don't know and going to enjoy life to its fullest, also relationship wise. I'm done saving my wife or the world, let me first care for myself: where I was still looking to help solve my wife's issues (the financial ones she created), now I'm done with it. The solution I had been working on didn't work after all and she got mad about it, we were in a zoom call with our accountant when she just left mid conversation because she couldn't handle the fact that the solution I had explored didn't work. I decided that was her problem and not feel guilty or bad about it, a big change compared to a few months ago. The solution was simple, she just needed to sell her car to pay back her loan. She now has a company car.

I also found a solution/agreement regarding the weekly encounter with the kid. Love it, no more weekly trauma responses. I went to my kids X-mas party, where my wife was as well last week, had been a month since I had seen her. I was able to truly enjoy myself, I had the impression, she was struggling still. Her problem, not mine any more (that feels so liberating just to write this again). I'm going on a holiday for Xmas with my date, curious how that will pan out. The crazy part is that I had needed all this crisis to emerge better both privately and professionally. In a messed up way, her MLC was a great gift, although I still am a bit sad knowing that after almost a year, she wasn't able to come back and walk the path of change together. I'm curious what the next year will give, if things go well tomorrow,  that would be a great step forward.

Wishing you all a merry Xmas and a happy New Year.

[Reinventing]

Palladian,

Wonderful update! You have done some amazing work. I especially thought this bit resonated:

I'm finally at a place where I'm actively choosing 'me' as the first and most important person to take care of.

[palladian]

Happy new year!

2022 ended great here: I managed - after many months of paperwork hassle - to arrange the financial aspects of the family house. We decided that I can stay there till our daughter leaves primary school and that I'll have to pay her, her fair share at that time. Was what I hoped for and expected, so glad to say that part is done and over with, no more financial exposure.

2023 opened pretty interestingly in my MLC land though. After signing the home agreement end of last year, I thought we could move forward with the next phase of this crisis. What you need to know is that after my wife was dumped by OM1 after a month or two (the guy was/is also married), she called me in absolute panic to ask if I was open for relationship therapy. I realised this wasn't about us and everything about her personal crisis, so I invited her for a walk after a few weeks, where we agreed to first handle the house and then see if there was something that could still be fixed. So, I was under the assumption, that 2023 would be the year of exploring to what extent anything of our marriage could be restored. Then January first happened I received a mail from her saying 'although this wasn't far from an ideal way to say this' (we had seen each other last week she wanted to tell me OM1 had left his family again a few weeks after she was dumped and they had a relation since. Oh, and she introduced him to our 8 year old daughter, and she told her everything what had happened. Oh, and her mother had lung cancer. Oh, and if I would think we could discuss the final changes to our divorce agreement.

Maaaaaannn, didn't see that one coming and to my surprise it affects me little to none any more. It also proves again how very much her existential crisis continues.  It's only a person in major distress who would act like this, or a total narcissist maybe, right? I realise my wife had been drawn to my positive energy for many years, so I'm starting to doubt if I didn't accidentally ended up marrying one.

Anyway, I answered her I think it was exactly the way she wanted to break me this news, that I was disappointed but that I understood her choice although I would have wanted to work on ourselves instead and that I wanted to have clarity on her choice forward. I made it clear from the beginning that if this was the way we'd divorce, I wouldn't want to do anything with her, also not relating to our kid, the relation is then over and out. I asked her that she'd either send me the changes she wanted to make to the agreement or that she'd give me some other signal if she'd want a different way forward.

Since I don't really expect that she will answer tbh, I'm contemplating if I should close the marriage myself. This is what I know: I don't miss her, I feel self-secure for the first time in my life, closed down my last therapy session last week and I'm confident it won't be needed any more to go back. I would still like to explore the option to see if we can work on ourselves to repair what is broken. My 8 year old, is suffering because of the break-up (she had a panic attack when I left to see a friend, and says she misses our family all the time).

So, anybody who has been through a similar thought process? Any insights that can make this smoother?

[KayDee]

Dear Palladian,

I'm so sorry you have been on the receiving end of such an email. It's quite staggering in its insensitivity, and it must have been very hurtful for you on so many levels. I haven't been through this exactly - I am new to the circus - but from what I read from your posts, in the last six months you seem to have found a kind a good equilibrium and were finally at a place where you seemed to be at peace with a range of outcomes (go your own way or work on the marriage etc). It seems like your W still has the power to disrupt this, thus set you back. We are told often told here at HS to make a distinction between hope and expectations for our own sanity and well-being, because people in the grip of a crisis are not generally thinking much beyond their own immediate needs, and we will be disappointed. I've been reminded of this recently myself, and so it still rings in my ears  . Perhaps, quite reasonably, you expected your wife to follow through with working on the marriage as you discussed, but in her current mindset she is neither trustworthy or reliable. I don't suppose anyone can (or should) advise you whether or not to move forward with the divorce, I guess you need to consider the what is best for you and your D.  How emotionally disruptive your W's behaviour and demands are on you both, and whether a divorce would restore some of that well earned equilibrium.  The divorce and money does seem to be your W's favourite cattle prod. Would it be easier for you to put in better boundaries if the D was finalized? I don't really have an answer for you, I know the more experienced folks here will likely comment, but it does seem like you were in a better place before this recent development. Sending your strength and solidarity!

[HeavenlyFocus]

Hi Pal,

I too had the same mindset leading up to my D with my XW.   About 12-14 months after BD, I had hoped that things would still be able to be repaired.  In reality, I have accepted that my XW's crises has to run its course.  I went with the mindset that I am open to all options (I am am this this day), but that fighting the D wouldn't help me on the long run.   I needed to protect myself emotionally and financially so moving on has been helpful.   I also now have firm boundaries with what support I provide and it's made things easier to deal with my XW.

I read almost all the reconciliation stories on HS during the past 2 years, and the common theme that I see is the  LBS spouse sets firm boundaries and moves on with their lives.  There is no coddling and influencing the MLCer to come back.   Finally, the MLCer starts to figure things out and is the one who wants to fight for the marriage.   I reached a point where I just accepted this.  My XW has no more power over me.   I am moving on and I would only consider reconciling if she did the very hard work required.   Most MLCers don't get there so I am not looking back.  Wish you the best as you deal with the and yet it's great to see that you are moving to a much better place.

HF

[palladian]

Hi @HeavenlyFocus, hi @KayDee

Thanks for sharing your perspective, it definitely helped! It is suiting that the 100th message in "my" thread was posted today, as I received a cold e-mail with the suggestions to adapt the divorce agreement which xW unilaterally pushed after a few weeks after announcing she fell in love with OM, now about a year ago.  No acknowledgement or engagement on my previous message and our 18 years together whatsoever.

In a way I am relieved she finally made her choice and showed her hand. I mainly feel compassion towards her actually because I know she is storming on the inside (if your sis & mother would die soon, who wouldn't) with feelings of despair and feeling 'in love', running away from her historical pain and taking full responsibility for her actions. It feels weird not having to care any more about her, liberating and yet very weird, I was always the one implicitly keeping her afloat with practical business support and words of motivation which in the end were not enough for her to handle her demons. In hindsight, that's not a partner, that's a coach. It's time for me to sever what remained of my connection to her, at least for now. Time to be truly free of someone who in the end mainly needed a care taker. It is insane how through the years, I unconsciously evolved into that position while all I wanted was a wife bold and trusting enough to be vulnerable and step with me through life and its challenges. Wow.

@HeavenlyFocus, thanks for your honest summary about reconciliation, I think you are right and I like the way you describe your attitude. I decided I'm not going to stand for someone who was ultimately too insecure to show love, disrespected me and our marriage so much, already introduced OM to my D, cheating, lying, gaslighting and stonewalling me. I deserve better and I'm grateful I took that lesson.  If by any throw of the dice that person would be her and the future decides to take a turn, the actual legal part of a divorce won't make any difference.

In the mean time, my D8 is being very open since New Year about her frustrations at her mom's place, the fact that her mother cries, sometimes shouts and leaves her alone for multiple hours without telling when she'll be back, starts to worry me a bit to be honest. I'm worried my daughter will develop co-dependence already where she feels like she needs to take care of my soon to be xW instead of vice versa. Apart from me being as much of a rock to my D as I can, any other advice or experiences?
 

[HeavenlyFocus]

If by any throw of the dice that person would be her and the future decides to take a turn, the actual legal part of a divorce won't make any difference.

For me it still seems weird that I am D, but it really hasn't changed my life that much compared to the crazy events after BD.   The legal part really hasn't made much of a difference for my life.

In the mean time, my D8 is being very open since New Year about her frustrations at her mom's place, the fact that her mother cries, sometimes shouts and leaves her alone for multiple hours without telling when she'll be back, starts to worry me a bit to be honest. I'm worried my daughter will develop co-dependence already where she feels like she needs to take care of my soon to be xW instead of vice versa. Apart from me being as much of a rock to my D as I can, any other advice or experiences?

I am dealing with this but girls are older at 13 and 15.   My view is I can't control how my kids react to XW nor my crazy XW's behavior.  Last night I dealt with a crazy episode and it really did hurt my kids.   They don't talk about it with me but I know it hurt them.   I guess I am learning to let go of the crazy and enjoy the the good times.   Tonight was just a fun and normal Monday night.   I don't get many nights during the week without kids activities and homework.  My girls and I went to get ice cream and then had pizza and watched a movie.  My oldest daughter initiated the movie which she never does.   They my not share with me the details but I can tell they needed a fun night.

It's enough for me to be their rock.  Let go of the crazy and enjoy the good times.   Your D will be ok as you focus on what she needs. 

HF

[UrsaMajor]

Palladin,

This is a tricky one as kids will sometimes unconsciously fill the needs of the parent without really being aware of it. My kids both fell into that, each with the same-sex parent, and one of the things that I had to do was a) figure out what was going on and b) impart to S15 (S8 at the time so the same age as yours D8 is now) that it is NOT his job to be my emotional support system, that I was an adult and would be able to handle it.

MLCxW, on the other hand, has D12 (then D4) as her emotional support companion and has fostered that relationship with her, to the point where D12 said to me a few years ago that she wasn't sure if she wanted to go on vacation with S15 and I because "what happens if something happens to mommy and I am not there?"     I told her the same thing that I told S15 at the time - that mommy was an adult and that it was not D12's job to take care of her. It was MOMMY's job to take care of D12.... Things have gotten better since but there is still an unhealthy dynamic there. However, D12 is reaching puberty and rebelling against MLCxW in small ways... and MLCxW is finding that she will have to take care of herself...

[palladian]

Thanks @HeavenlyFocus, thanks @UrsaMajor, I recognize similar dynamics here: soon to be xW is copy/pasting what she has learnt from her mother (xW was and still is her support system) on our daughter. I literally said yesterday to D8 that she can be a kid and doesn't have to worry about the adults, they have to figure it out themselves. I'm glad that D8 is very open with me, I hope this will continue at a later stage. I believe if you can have open and vulnerable conversations with your kids offering them psychological safety via boundaries and joy, that's the best way forward according to me.

[palladian]

What a day, what a day. In the turbulence, when my wife left in a hurry, she took a loan from a family member I presume for furniture and needed to pay it back by the end of last year. She was counting on me to solve that part of her problem and today I told her no thanks. Then she sent this aggressive mail that as part of our housing agreement, I needed to pay an upfront, we agreed that if both parties would agree to that, that this could be a possibility, but in no way a must. Then, when I told her that wasn't an option, within 30 minutes, I received a message asking me cold if I could pay anything upfront and when I said no, 15 minutes later I received two additional messages first to tell her she was unable to contribute to the birthday present of our daughter (a new bike) followed by a new message that we should put the divorce agreement on hold since she didn't have the finances to pay for the processing, even though she went on a holiday with OM last week.

It is surreal to see how the MLC of my wife and her choices are caused by stress about money, our challenging kid, her current family challenges and her historical luggage. This causes to trigger her pattern, being fleeing from the problem, basic survival behavior, into the arms of someone else thinking that is the solution because it feels better.

The fact that I understand it 'technically' (I'm a scientific scholar on human behavior and the role of money), the fact that I know how to process it and that she refuses to engage whatsoever, is just... well... mind-boggling But, of course, detaaaaach. It feels liberating to realise this isn't my problem any more. What a day.

[forthetrees]

Wow, you didn´t need confirmation of the out of kilter behavior but the Universe sent it anyway. You just earned your "Not my monkeys, Not my circus" T-shirt. Congratulations.

[limitless]

Palladian,

This all sounds so familiar.

Back in the day - my Ex expected that I would assist him in getting a new car - after he's left.  I suggested that he get a used car.  He got so very mad!  His truck broke down and he ended up using my credit card to pay for the repair and a rental.  He sent me a very aggressive letter (with the missing credit card included).  He blamed me for the cost of the repair and rental - as I did not support him when he said that he wanted/needed a new car.  It was all my fault.

I think the whole thing cost me $3k or so.  This was back in 2012 - I think. 

In 2019 - he sent me a check to repay me.  I was a bit surprised by that.  Never expected that he would pay it back....it only took 7 years.  It was about that time that I received a long email - apologizing for pretty much everything he did.  Many people never even get that.

He married the OW that year.  It was the last that I ever heard from him. 

It's funny.  They don't want to be married to us...but they still want us to assist them in their lives.  And, they get mad when we don't.  You can't win.  Don't bother trying.

L

[UrsaMajor]

My episode with that and MLCxW2 didn't involve money but she did expect me to just come over whenever she asked and do things for her like fix her kitchen sink, help get her sick dog in the car and take him to the vet, etc., all that kind of stuff..... When I finally said "Sorry, I am not available to be at your beck and call anymore. We are divorced. If it is something that has to do with the kids, fine but other than that, these are things that you need to do on your own now or find someone else to do them for you."  she was FURIOUS... but she didn't ask again...

MLCxW1 saddled me with about 25K$ in credit card debt which I paid off.... She, on the other hand, ended up declaring bankruptcy (which was, of course, my fault because she co-signed a large loan for her ADOM and he defaulted)   

[Standing Strong]

You sound so grounded Pal, very nice!!!   

So W is in her sprint away still.... run run run..... she can't outrun herself.

Hang in there, things change as time goes on. What is on the docket for Pal? What is his plan for the future?

-SS

[palladian]

Hah, another day, another story. Received a new mail saying 'she arranged things' and we can "pick up where we left off" the divorce agreement ànd a whole rant about what type of bike to buy together.  Interesting how she tried to pressure me just 24 hours ago to solve her loan demons and now it's back to business.

@Limiteless, Wow, 7 years? That's a looong time. Were you 'happy'? The fact that it was a single note and then nothing more, sounds just harsh. I personally do not expect any apology at all the coming years. I presume - unless the hurt of the death of her siblings consumes her so hard - that she'll just push it under the rug as she has always done. You know what's striking though, in a business set-back someone really f'ed me over. A decade later, like last month, she sent me a message if we could have a talk... Seems the guilt stays in there one way or the other.

@Ursamajor, didn't know you experienced this type of crisis twice, that is rough. I was always 'the emotional fixer' which always gave her an excuse not to deel with her challenges. It is sad and confronting for me to see in a way I have 'learnt' her that no matter what I would fix things for her, offering her an easy way out of personal responsibility. By running away to her 'new me' (OM has some character traits like myself) she found herself a fresh supply of support I guess. Anyway, not my problem any more.

@For The Trees, if there would be such a T-shirt, I would actually consider buying it! 

@Standing Strong, thanks, the emotion pain is totally gone, apart from the occasional sting still. I'm in full 'change life' mode, with a deep relaxation into my situation, working from there both on my choices and finances. I realise it will take some time but I'm energized to tackle things. For years in a way I was adapting but wasn't myself. That's done. Unapologically me, have a dating life, have a wonderful kid which I have fun with, have plenty of friends and am chasing my own vision in professional life. So I guess, I'm ticking a lot of boxes!

[Standing Strong]

Hey Pal 

How's it going? You were in the middle of a bunch of MLC'er flipping a couple weeks ago..... what ended up happening?  How are you doing?

-SS

[palladian]

Hey Pal 

How's it going? You were in the middle of a bunch of MLC'er flipping a couple weeks ago..... what ended up happening?  How are you doing?

-SS

I'm doing great! Am enjoying my status as a soon to be divorced from someone whose struggles are not mine any more 

STBXW is going overboard, accusing me to be an a**hole,  projecting all kind of her misery on me because she cannot handle owning her behavior. It's insane to see this happening in front of your eyes: she runs away, for I year I ask to work together on the problems we have. She refuses, lies, goes back to OM and then I tell her what the consequences are for me. She follows through and then accuses me for the consequences, incredible. 

I'm focusing on my thing, took on a part-time lectorship in a school with people I like on a subject I like. I'm organizing life to the max, focusing on what I want, something which is a first in life. It gives me great joy, all cilinders go on the professional life as well, doing really cool stuff. I have a lot of fun with my kid who complains more and more about her mother, I'm trying to hedge it to the best of my abilities but above all I feel the relationship with my D( is only getting stronger, love it. Spending time with my friends, being more conscious who they are and I'm slowing down in life as well, less rushed. Working a lot on spiritual stuff as well, gives me inner freedom. Recently discovered Michaël Singer, great guy with a lot of useful wisdom for the entire THS community I think.

[UrsaMajor]

Those darn consequences....

And of course, it is the LBS that is responsible because ... well ... uhmmm .... we MADE them do what they did? We set boundaries that they had not previously experienced and stuck to them? We no longer allowed them to walk all over us?

Yep... Karma....

[limitless]

Hi P,

I just noticed that you had sent me some questions - sorry to respond so late.

@Limiteless, Wow, 7 years? That's a looong time. Were you 'happy'? The fact that it was a single note and then nothing more, sounds just harsh. I personally do not expect any apology at all the coming years. I presume - unless the hurt of the death of her siblings consumes her so hard - that she'll just push it under the rug as she has always done. You know what's striking though, in a business set-back someone really f'ed me over. A decade later, like last month, she sent me a message if we could have a talk... Seems the guilt stays in there one way or the other.

Was I happy?  Actually at the time - I was angry.  To receive an email that he was so very wrong to disrespect me and our marriage - after 9 long years.....for me it wasn't enough.  (not that anything he could say or do at this point would be enough),

After I had some time to think about it....I came to realize that this was the best he could offer.  I never expected an apology either...and I got one - a pretty heartfelt one....  That didn't change all the damage and the hurt....but it was something.  I got to hear that I was so much better of a wife than he had been a husband.  Okay...Many don't ever receive an apology.  After time of thinking about it and letting it sink in - there was a bit of solace in it.

As far as your comment regarding the guilt....yes - they spend a lot of time denying it and running away from it - but they really can't avoid the guilt.  It eats them up. 

As many LBS' have said in the past - that bears repeating - I would much rather be an LBS than an MLCer.  I couldn't live with it. - if I had destroyed my family and hurt my kids to very much.

Take care,

L

[palladian]

It's been ages since I came to this place but wanted to share some of the evolutions and lessons with the community, maybe they can help. Last time I came here, there was a drama about buying a bike, something which I wanted to do alone and she insisted on doing together. I explained (like for the 100th time) that in the circumstances following her choice to not talk/work on our crisis and have a divorce while she was staying with OM, I wanted as little as possible to do with her.

She fumed about it multiple times, accused me of several things which were manifestly not true. Then I asked her again (also for the 100th time) if this was the way she wanted to end our relationship. No direct yes or no but then things got really weird. I explained her that - since she is spinning her story towards our kid, seeing it impacted her - I felt forced to share my perspective on things - even though I wanted to keep the kid out of the crisis - and asked if we could at least agree on the facts, not the interpretation.

Turns out, no   She refused to acknowledge that she called me last year crying, asking me if we could still try relationship therapy after she got initially dumped by OM. Talk about struggling to take ownership of your choices.

Since then, I further distanced myself from her struggle and shared with my kid that I was really mad at her mother (upon advice of her coach/psychologist) since the kid felt there was something very wrong. It felt very liberating. I also told her that she didn't have to worry and mommy loved her very much (apart from my sharing of being mad, I only talk positive about her towards D8). I'm rocking it for D8, she says she can 'at least be herself with me' all while complaining often about mommy.

We are well on our way to finalise the divorce agreement, which I feel totally chill with to be honest. What a difference with the beginning of my story here. It is true that MLC is a kick in the b***s, but once the pain subsides you do feel stronger. I'm more assertive than I have ever been, feel more confident and have had more time for my daughter, friends, self-care and my girl-friend, yes still the same one , simple and genuine  . So, life has never been better since the first years of my relationship with soon to be xW. I totally forgot how that felt. Crazy.

Anyways, Palladian out again for now, you are all rockstars in your own way.

[Standing Strong]

Hey Pal 

I was wondering how it was going for you..... so glad to see an update 

Very glad you are strong and on good footing now...... and she's deep, deep in the tunnel.

So the D is well underway. Isn't it weird how that changes over time? You get tough, grow and then it's not the end of the world (but not what we wanted at the start). So what's next for pal? Something is on the horizon.

-SS

[UrsaMajor]

As with the  majority of the Mid-Lifers - "The more things change, the more they stay the same." Also knows as "If you want your life to change, you have to change your life " which is something that the Mid-Lifers are frantically trying to do without changing the underlying basis from which their lives are formed....