[Hopeful5]

Well, I guess I can say I finally got the official BD.  W said she doesn't love me --- In front of all our kids.

She also said in front of our kids that I'm not worth respecting and that I can't do anything right. 

This is all so sad and unnecessary.  There's not a single problem in our marriage that can't be worked through.

I'm assuming that now that this has been said openly (my kids already knew without her saying anything), that things are going to get more interesting from W.  I'm wondering if she'll be asking for a D next...

And you do have choices on the spectrum from sucking it up to divorce. And those choices may be shaded by your honest judgement of how much damage the current situation is doing to you and your children.

Thanks for you reply. There's a lot to think about here. She's crumbling apart for sure, and it's heartwrenching to see, and she's definitely doing a massive amount of projecting.  Her treatment of me is absolutely inexcusable.  It's confusing for the kids because her "tears" and victim mentality manipulate everyones emotions (including mine).

Regarding divorce. From all that I've read, there's not much hope for her to recover in any way to where she was before.  I am going through the work internally to completely detach from her emotionally and I'm making steps personally, and with my kids to move forward with life.

Here's the problem.  If I initiate a D without having an absolutely amazing, convincing reason that my kids all stood behind, I would forever be blamed on "giving up" on W and be the one to blame for ruining our family.  Even though she's long gone in her heart and all my kids know it, If I fail to stand until the end (whatever that is), I fear that I'll be making a decision that I could forever regret in the eyes of my children. 

I personally can endure the abuse. If the WHY is big enough, I can endure anything.  And right now, the security of my children is the #1 WHY.  But, of course, there is a point when there could be more security as a result of a D.  That's where things get complicated.  I'm just not sure about where that line is yet.

So far, I've thought that at least having 2 parents in the home, even if the relationship is broken, is better than a D. But maybe I'm wrong. There's a lot to think about.

She is normalizing abusive and dysfunctional behavior. But of course, that's what she blames me of doing. I hate this, and the affect this is having on my kids.  I hate that she's repeating her childhood trauma and now my kids have to endure it.

Personally, I don't think there's any way she can continue in our marriage the way things are.  She's seeing that over time I'm getting healthier and stronger, while all of her masks and false personas are crumbling apart and what's left is her anger, bitterness and contempt.

The most frustrating thing is that she can't see herself AT ALL.

[UrsaMajor]

She's crumbling apart for sure, and it's heartwrenching to see, and she's definitely doing a massive amount of projecting.  Her treatment of me is absolutely inexcusable.  It's confusing for the kids because her "tears" and victim mentality manipulate everyones emotions (including mine).

<...snip...>

So far, I've thought that at least having 2 parents in the home, even if the relationship is broken, is better than a D. But maybe I'm wrong. There's a lot to think about.

She is normalizing abusive and dysfunctional behavior. But of course, that's what she blames me of doing. I hate this, and the affect this is having on my kids.  I hate that she's repeating her childhood trauma and now my kids have to endure it.

Read what you wrote here (which I intentionally put in bold and italics

Does this sound like a healthy environment for your kids to grow up in to you?

If one (or both) parents are abusive, then the kids are not going to get a view of what a healthy relationship looks like.  They may not agree or see the reality of the situation at the moment (depending on their age and what your Mid-Lifer is doing) but, over time, it is likely that they will get the point.  Kids may be inexperienced and naive but they are not stupid and are quite capable of seeing when things are off....

[FrenchHusband]

So far, I've thought that at least having 2 parents in the home, even if the relationship is broken, is better than a D. But maybe I'm wrong. There's a lot to think about.

A reccurring question in this forum : during MLC is it better to have live-in spouse or walk-away spouse ? I don't think there is one clear answer, there are pros and cons, IMO each case is different and there are different factors to consider : finances, children well being, shared custody.
In many cases we LBS have no choice because the spouse under MLC disappears very quickly. When the spouse stays at home, sometimes they try to push us outside, or we can feel that they act in order to be pushed outside.

JMO, the main factor to consider is the amount of damage that is accomplished/may come. Damage on you first, on the children secondly.
In order to decrease the damage that is made, the usual advice from the LBS toolbox is even more important : detach, set up boundaries (emotional, physical, finance...)

[Hopeful5]

This all gives me a lot to think about. I think in my mind, I’m downplaying the abusive behavior that she’s displaying in front of our kids. In her mind and in her words to our kids I basically deserve it.

Financially, we are in a very stuck position. If there was a divorce, we would need to sell our business which we both own, and sell our property so both of us could start over. That event in itself just adds more trauma to the situation for the kids. Two parents starting over completely.

I really do appreciate all of your thoughts, please keep them coming. It’s helping me think through things.

[Atari25]

Here's the problem.  If I initiate a D without having an absolutely amazing, convincing reason that my kids all stood behind, I would forever be blamed on "giving up" on W and be the one to blame for ruining our family.  Even though she's long gone in her heart and all my kids know it, If I fail to stand until the end (whatever that is), I fear that I'll be making a decision that I could forever regret in the eyes of my children. 

This is a tough place to be. You want the kids on your side 100% and you want to make sure they see their mother for what she is and has become. You never ever want to be seen as the person ending it.

I find myself having similar thoughts and worries even though my kids are 19/23. I can't and won't initiate anything ever. It all has to come from her.

[WHY]

I fully agree that D filing should come from MLCer.   Not to say you should desperately hang on.   I would live life as if you were D.  But, the act of filing.  That’s on the MLCer. And they will have to be fully accountable for their actions someday.   Otherwise the LBS will get blamed, AGAIN. 

Remember the words.   “NOT my D”

[Hopeful5]

This is a tough place to be. You want the kids on your side 100% and you want to make sure they see their mother for what she is and has become. You never ever want to be seen as the person ending it.

I find myself having similar thoughts and worries even though my kids are 19/23. I can't and won't initiate anything ever. It all has to come from her.

So sorry your'e going through all of this too.  It is a tough place to be. I fully agree. The tough thing is, my kids are much younger. youngest is 8 and oldest just turned 18 and this is all incredibly stressful on them.  They see my W crying to them, and blaming me for all her woe's and they emotionally get pulled to her (as did I).

We have our own biz that we run out of our home, and we homeschool, so our kids are around us 24/7.  They have clear memories of us being a very happy family. We had been a very, very close family.  My oldest said that the one thing he was thankful for was that he had 2 parents that rarely fought and loved each other. This all came as the hugest shock to them. The overwhelming evidence of all of my kid's positive family memories does not at all match up with the narrative that my W has created and is trying to brainwash everyone with. 

Yes, it's important that they see her behavior clearly.  I'm doing my best to play the long game here and keep myself calm, in control, and supportive and allow her to continue to show herself for who she is, which is inevitable as she's full of anger, bitterness and contempt. The contrast between me and her needs to be clear.

I do feel like how this all plays out from here until there's a D (barring some miracle), is incredibly important.

My W is (sadly) in a world of suffering and I am not.  There is a lot of pain I'm dealing with but I won't get stuck suffering.

I fully agree that D filing should come from MLCer.   Not to say you should desperately hang on.   I would live life as if you were D.  But, the act of filing.  That’s on the MLCer. And they will have to be fully accountable for their actions someday.   Otherwise the LBS will get blamed, AGAIN. 

Remember the words.   “NOT my D”

This is my thinking too.   As long as I can see clearly and not get mixed up in feeling confused, I can take her "abuse" for what it is.  A hurt person causing more hurt.

I think she's hoping that eventually the kids will sympathize enough with her "unhappiness" that her filing of a D will be something they can "understand" and she won't lose relationships with them.  This, I believe, is the only thing holding her back. Unfortunately, she's already severely damaged her relationship with our oldest.  If she continues with this behavior, I can't imagine that this will play out well with her relationships with our other kids.

I am taking steps (with my kids) to move forward in life. We're moving towards joining a faith community which has been lacking in our life for the past several years.  Of course my W wants nothing to do with it. A mindset of grace, mercy & forgiveness doesn't quite fit her paradigm anymore.

[Hopeful5]

I have a question.  It seems like all (or almost all) of the MLC stories involve some sort of affair, or emotional affair.

The strange thing about my situation is, it checks off so many of the items on the MLC list, but there doesn't seem to be ANY kind of affair. Our whole family is around each other 24/7 (homeschool and home business) and there would be almost zero opportunity for my W to have an affair.  We don't even have a network of friends. She's literally with someone from our family (me or our kids) at all times. 

The only strange new behavior that could be something is that she takes super long visits to the bathroom every night (like sometimes for 45 mins).  I guess she could be communicating with someone during that time, but I find it highly unlikely.  She's so emotionally removed and avoidant that I find it hard to believe that she'd be having some kind of EA over her phone with someone.  She doesn't disclose her emotions to anyone...   

So, if there's no affair.  How is it that she checks off so many of other boxes of an MLC?  My therapist is stumped too. He said the only times he ever sees these kinds behaviors is when there's an affair.  Any thoughts on this? 

[WHY]

There’s “always” an affair.  Could be your wife has a fantasy affair.  The bathroom thing would explain it.

[Hopeful5]

There’s “always” an affair.  Could be your wife has a fantasy affair.  The bathroom thing would explain it.

To be honest, I find it hard to believe. She's never been one to fantasize about anything. She's very much been a "realist".  It would be very out of character at least. Which isnt saying much I guess...