Skip to main content

Author Topic: My Story The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night

m
  • *
  • Subscriber, 12 Month
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 823
  • Gender: Male
My Story The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
OP: May 22, 2021, 03:53:10 PM
I have been chronicling my story at another site, but as the environment became more and more toxic I gradually moved over here (which I find incredibly well moderated, thank you moderators) with many wise and insightful veterans and not so veteran participants. But I have not moved my story here, because I am now passed year four, a lot has happened, and it is simply not important anymore to restate. I mainly chronicle my story now to “give back” to all the other people who came before me. Like most of you I spend many many hours reading stories, absorbing and learning from everyone else’s hard earned experience. It was a lifeline, a teacher, a companion and comfort in the first few months. As such I write hoping maybe someone else will gain a small amount of the same by reading mine.

But I find that there may be no point writing this next chapter to come elsewhere, as the audience is not interested. So it occurred to me to start a thread and share what is to come, yet unwritten, here. So please bear with me as this may be long. You see my wife after being out of the country, and essentially has not seen me in almost three years, has suddenly decided she is coming back next week.

To be clear I have really detached and moved on from anything that is going on with her. My approach with her since the early days has been to “meet” her where she is. When she disappears I do not reach out. If she sends a text about trivia, I respond exactly in the same tone and depth. A few rare times over the four years where she has been more “lucid” and she has engaged in deeper levels I have also matched her in the same manner. But I spent a period of time detaching from, taking care of, watching, analyzing or in any way “waiting” to see what she does. I accepted that our marriage was over, started grieving, went back into therapy, and have slowly moved on and restructured my life without her being any part of it. This is after we had built what was a very good life together as partners for 23 years before her MLC.

It was all very much “textbook.” We have no kids, we were best friends and very well matched and balanced in our relationship. We planned and had a good life, but also did things on our own. I honestly didn’t see it coming and experienced the typical “I love you” statements on Friday, and on a Tuesday morning I was given the “speech” with no warning. And yes looking back I started finding the subtle clues of her inner fracture preceding in the past 1.5 years. Hindsight is always correct but never useful. She cycled hard for the first six months, we met up and separated multiple times, many long and deep conversations, many many insults and raging and blame. You all know the drill I won’t bore you. Then she disappeared for six months. Then she came back and was like her old self and for 2 months it seemed she was better. She even started therapy, started talking about our life, our plans etc. Then after a 3 week separation due to trips she came back and said we should go our separate ways with no warning. All of it is script, soul mates, destiny, ILYBIANILWY, you repulse me, I never loved you, etc etc.

So three years after this last BD (number 4) she disappeared. Then many many cycles of shallow touch and goes. Some texts for a few days then silence for a couple of weeks. The touch and goes got shorter and shorter in duration and cycle. And now, without any rhyme or reason she has decided to leave her “fantasy life” and come back home for a little bit. To be clear this is NOT any kind of declaration of return or reconnection. She has excuses and reasons which I am sure she doesn’t understand. One of them is to come back home to get vaccinated for Covid (very wise idea). But I can sense there is more. She has randomly dropped comments about how she hates where she is (the dream place), how she is sick of the OM (yes she will say things to me as if we are still the same close couple we were for years and years). And lately on a scale of 1 to 10, where 1 is her old self and 10 was the worst monster during the cycling times, she is maybe around a 3. If at the worst of the time she was emotionally in her early teens I would say she is in her late teens or early 20s at her best.

For me as I said I have moved on. I have been in a good relationship for three years. It has been growing slowly and organically with no particular goal in mind. Neither one of us is looking to get married again, nor to live together. She is completely aware of what is going on in my life, the full story of my STBW(?), and her sudden return. I can not in any way imagine ever wanting a relationship like I had with my wife at this point, much less see a path to any kind of reconciliation. First she is nowhere near capable or ready, and I have moved on. There has been too much said, and I have grown and changed and like so many here say I am happy with my self, and by myself. Its a case of never say never, but any path even if it existed is probably another five to six years assuming my W ever was serious about trying to heal herself.

So all I wish right now is for her to find her footing, to stop running. To take the time alone to heal, to grow, to truly find herself and get to a contented and authentic life. If she ever starts down that path and if she needs my help I will be there for her. I will always take care of myself first, but with all the years we had (she was truly my best friend) I will do my best to help, if she wants it. And maybe one day in the distant future we may be real friends in the present, not just in the past.

I have no idea how brief or long this chapter will be, but I think I’d like to share it here. I welcome advice and feedback from veterans or any insight if anyone sees me not being honest with myself. And the title is a line I keep hearing in my head at times from an amazing Sade song. So I am going to post this link here, with full credits to Nas who has started and owns the song concept!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZL4sGl9MSOA
  • Logged
« Last Edit: May 22, 2021, 04:22:06 PM by marvin4242 »
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

M
  • *
  • Trial Subscriber
  • Full Member
  • Posts: 161
  • Gender: Female
The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#1: May 22, 2021, 05:29:14 PM
 Welcome! And thanks for sharing your story.  :)  This is a great group with great people.
  • Logged

N

Nas

  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 2864
The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#2: May 22, 2021, 09:09:47 PM
First, let me commend you on an absolutely stellar song choice in the magnificent Sade:
🎶 I've cried for the lives I've lost
Like a child in need of love 🎶

Having had a heavy day myself today, those lyrics were like an opening of floodgates, a bit of a cathartic release tonight (in a good way).

🎶🎶 My tears flow like a child's in need of love
I've cried the tears
So build the fire, light the flame
Bring me home🎶🎶

Thanks for sharing parts of your story and this as yet unknown unfolding chapter. I can imagine that even with good detachment and a “new normal” for yourself and your own sense of what “home” means to YOU (a huge deal in its own right), and even with intermittent contact throughout, seeing her after a long while will bring up feelings and maybe even lead to revelations of your own.
I’m glad you have this space to share and be heard. I hope it’ll be a help to you and I have no doubt it will help others on their own journeys of moving on (or even standing in whatever unique way that is defined to each individual).

You have imparted wise words to many in your time here, so welcome to your own story here.
  • Logged

  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 11403
  • Gender: Female
The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#3: May 22, 2021, 10:16:51 PM
Thank you, as Nas said, for the Sade song and for deciding to post about this next chapter in your life, Marvin.
Funnily enough, we come here with MLC stories but I often think that actually we act as witnesses for each other’s stories as LBS. How important that is at a time when most of us feel so unheard and unseen in RL. And perhaps life after being an LBS. Which may be just as important to read about for those looking for hope in the dark days.

You sound very calm. (I’m sure there have been plenty of times when you have not been  :) ) As if you are no longer striving for answers or chewing on the perennial questions of what was real before her crisis or feeling the need to label her. I rather envy that calm....not quite there yet, or not all the time  :)

You sound as if you are not standing for your marriage now, but standing for your wife’s healing if you have any part to play in it? And that you were standing for a while? What changed for you? And what do you see as the biggest changes in your mindset or actions that got you to where you are now?

To help others here who may be in a similar place....are you still legally married and if so, how have you handled the practical and financial aspects of that bc there are others here probably in a similar situation. (I think there might be such a thing as MLC Time lol....certainly I found that LBS Time was a thing  :)....years can feel like years and also not, can’t they?)

And with hindsight, what made you decide that your w had what we call MLC here? Your w sounds like an intermittent boomerang....patches of vanishing, patches of pop up anchor checks? Does she come with the kind of unresolved FOO baggage for instance that many (but not all maybe) seem to carry? Was there an event or series of events that you see as the catalyst for her unravelling?

And how are you feeling in yourself about your w’s return to the country?
  • Logged
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.
Healing and growing found here https://littleplotbythesea.wordpress.com

"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

m
  • *
  • Subscriber, 12 Month
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 823
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#4: May 23, 2021, 04:44:06 AM
Thanks MF, Nas and Treasur.

I pretty much followed the typical LBS story myself. In the first few weeks I was completely pretzeling, confused, lost and had no idea what was really going on. Obviously like most I still assumed my wife was my friend, my partner, worth my trust, and as I started to understand much later what a mistake that is. But most of us make it because we simply can’t know that our loved one is no longer a coherent functioning psyche. They hide it so well. Two things really helped me in those early days. First was that her behaviour and distancing triggered my own abandonment issues. I still remember the moment when I realized this. This immediately helped me take my focus off her and back on myself, and I found a good trauma therapist. And almost at the same time this helped me start to look at her with clearer eyes and realized something was “off.” And a little search like most of other LBSes led me to various MLC sites and boy did that help. Once I started to separate what was mine and what was going on with her that helped me start to regain footing early on. Not that there was not some real periods of deep pain, lots of grief, and a long time before I started to internalize and process that my marriage was over. I understood it intellectually within 2 or 3 months, but emotions are like a giant boat, they don’t turn on a dime. After 23 years it took a long while for things to slowly realign themselves.

I don’t think I ever stood for my marriage in the more strict sense as I am not religious. Rather I was really concerned for the well being of my friend and my wife, it was so obvious how much pain and turmoil she was in. I had known her for so long, and we talked about and shared everything openly. We knew each other’s past, childhood traumas, what haunted us etc. And to watch her split in a way into multiple competing facets of herself, the anger it was so difficult. But because I already had learned to detach from my past it helped me stay a little more “back” and observe. And it reduced the damage. It didn’t take it away, but it helped. Initially I also was trying to save myself by “fixing” what was going on, but that is very normal. Over time I slowly separated from “us” to “me” again and picked back up all the parts of my well being that I had put in our relationship. Over many many many months. In fact the biggest damage I noticed was that over the years my wife had become a great reflection in which I could see my strengths and weaknesses. She was very insightful, honest and empathetic before it all fell apart. So inadvertently I had placed my own view of myself in her lens. So when she fractured and started distorting me (over the time before BD1) without me noticing I had slowly started to feel diminished. It was from her subtle digs, her jabs, her hostility. I hadn’t noticed but I had shrunk. At BD it was no longer subtle, but overt and hostile. That in a strange was helped, because some of things she said to me were so not aligned with who I am that I started to question what was going on.

Treasur to answer you questions directly: yes we are legally married, but functionally we have not been for over 3 years. She ran off with her “soul mate” at the start, and I actually know the moment our marriage was over. It was at BD1. Financially there is no danger for various reasons, but where I live in order to finalize a divorce we need an agreement. Truthfully right now I don’t think she could handle anything too complex, and I can not imagine how she would go through a divorce process. And even if I could drag her through it I don’t think its fair. When we do agree about finances I would like her to be of “sound mind” and make good decisions that she is happy with. I can’t imagine that can happen right now. But I engaged lawyers early on and have taken steps to protect finances.

MLC is a colloquial terms for a significant psychological event. Honestly it is easy to see when we are removed. There are periods of deep disassociation (shark eyes), memory loss, total loss of empathy (which can be a hallmark of deep emotional pain, the psyche shuts down empathy just like the body will collect blood in the core, its emotional survival), and the rage and anger. In my Ws case she also started lying. When I caught her in the first lie it truly shocked me. She had not lied in 23 years, she had no need to. She was happy to “call me out,” always stood her ground, and we could talk about anything. Then I noticed she was lying about small things too. Honestly I quickly started seeing how she was no longer operating as a functional adult, but I could see behaviours of a child in different ages. I remember one very poignant conversation we had in one of her touch and gos, where she was still blaming me, but at the same time was sharing with me what was going on because she trusted me. I had already detached and was not talking about anything of us, but listening. And suddenly she said “why are you so distant?” I reminded her she wanted space and that I was doing just that. She started crying. I asked if she wanted more space and she curled up like a ball in floor sobbing the word “no.” It was like a 4 or 5 year old. It was heartbreaking.

So I am now going to say to others: no matter how much love or empathy you may have for your MLCer (or none at all, it all depends on who they were and what happened) NONE OF THEIR PAIN is yours. You can not fix it, you can not make it better. Maybe the hardest thing to accept after accepting that your relationship as you knew it is over is this. That you may need to remove yourself, because seeing them in pain can be deadly, but without accepting that nothing you do will matter or help you may damage yourself trying to do just that.

Anyway I’ll live it here for now with this other song of the same album:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RVoBR1AlVQ
  • Logged
« Last Edit: May 23, 2021, 04:46:41 AM by marvin4242 »
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

  • *
  • Mentor
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 11618
  • Gender: Female
The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#5: May 23, 2021, 05:22:04 AM
Thank you marvin for sharing your story. The similarities in so many of the stories are really quite incredible. The back and forth quite crazy making because it doesn't make any sense to us. One minute hot, then cold and distant. The lack of empathy is something I still have trouble coping with.

It helps others to read these stories, the common concepts of their behavior being compared to being a child. It is also important to recognize our own trauma and to get the right kind of therapist for ourselves who can treat the trauma we have experienced.

My husband lived out of country for 10 years and suddenly returned. Unfortunately that has opened up wounds for me, again.

My difficulty is my memories of the life we once had and how much I miss that life.

I also think that personally, the ability to love again has been completely destroyed in me and that scares me.

So even though we detach, (and it took me much longer than it did for you and others), we need to acknowledge the damage that has been done. Often we tell people to work on themselves and to heal and become whole again, I somehow keep stumbling on that road.

Thank you for being so open and for your ability to express what this is about.

The one of many phrases that were significant to me that you wrote:

MLC is a colloquial terms for a significant psychological event.

That helps me when my heart breaks over the love that was once so beautiful and is now long gone.
  • Logged
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

9
  • *
  • MLCer Type: Clinging Boomerang
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 742
  • Gender: Female
The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#6: May 23, 2021, 05:24:59 AM
Thank you for posting Marvin.  Your words hit home in so many ways.  They also go to show that MLC is a journey for the LBS as well.  A journey that is life changing for sure.

Quote
So I am now going to say to others: no matter how much love or empathy you may have for your MLCer (or none at all, it all depends on who they were and what happened) NONE OF THEIR PAIN is yours. You can not fix it, you can not make it better. Maybe the hardest thing to accept after accepting that your relationship as you knew it is over is this. That you may need to remove yourself, because seeing them in pain can be deadly, but without accepting that nothing you do will matter or help you may damage yourself trying to do just that.

This may be the biggest lesson I have had to learn through all of this.  For me I found peace after I did.  As my H and I move forward in putting a relationship back together, this lesson is first and foremost.  We each have to own what is ours. 

I look forward to reading more about where your journey takes you.  Again, thanks for sharing.

Roo
  • Logged
Husband 55
Me 55
Kids 3 sons 29, 27, 25 1 daughter 20
BD #1 Spring 2016
BD #2 Winter 2017
married 33 years.  Together 35
H never moved out except 3 weeks after BD #1
OW 30 year single mom employee-He says EA only I don’t believe him.

C
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 726
  • Gender: Female
The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#7: May 23, 2021, 08:21:16 AM
Marvin, I have been grateful for your insight and wisdom on this forum throughout my journey, and in your own story there are yet more lessons that apply to many of us. Thank you for sharing your story and for the reminders about the need to detach and care for ourselves.

What hit home for me is the spouse having been a reflection in which you could see your strengths and weaknesses, and the initial insight being replaced by distortion of that reflection. When you trust that person implicitly and therefore you trust their view of you, it takes some time and work to realize that the distortion is about them and not about you.

Following along with you...
  • Logged

  • *
  • Mentor
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 4371
  • Gender: Female
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#8: May 23, 2021, 12:32:04 PM
.... So when she fractured and started distorting me (over the time before BD1) without me noticing I had slowly started to feel diminished. It was from her subtle digs, her jabs, her hostility. I hadn’t noticed but I had shrunk. At BD it was no longer subtle, but overt and hostile. That in a strange was helped, because some of things she said to me were so not aligned with who I am that I started to question what was going on.
I think this happens a lot. We trust our spouse, so if they are subtly digging at us, we think they must be accurate in their assessment of us. For those that got the ramp up to BD where their spouse flip flopped from "You are the greatest thing since sliced bread." to "Can't you do anything right", it might take a while to figure out how much damage might have been done to our own perspective of ourselves. It wasn't until my ex accused me of things HE had done that I recognized his previous gaslighting.

It's hard won when you can get the distortion separated from reality. That must have been very difficult, yet eye opening, for you to sort if she had started well before BD and you considered her a reflection you could trust.

It sounds like you are well prepared for the next part of your journey where your paths could meet again. I hope it is drama free and that all goes well.
  • Logged
When life gives you lemons, make SALSA!

m
  • *
  • Subscriber, 12 Month
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 823
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#9: May 23, 2021, 12:56:11 PM
Thank you all for your thoughts and feedback.

My difficulty is my memories of the life we once had and how much I miss that life.

That helps me when my heart breaks over the love that was once so beautiful and is now long gone.

Xyzcf: not that it helps but for me part of it was true and real acceptance that that part has been gone for along while. Its not easy but so essential. I’ll just quote more Sade (works for now):

“Nothing's quite how it seems
The ghost of my joy
Won't let me be”

Roo: Thank you and I always enjoy and appreciate your story and insights as you move along your path with your H.

Curiosity: Thank you and welcome along for this part of the ride!

It sounds like you are well prepared for the next part of your journey where your paths could meet again. I hope it is drama free and that all goes well.

Thank you for the good wishes, appreciated and I know what you mean. But my expectations are at nill, and as far as it going well: heh! Not a chance!

 8)
  • Logged
« Last Edit: May 23, 2021, 01:00:38 PM by marvin4242 »
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

  • ****
  • Sr. Member
  • Posts: 379
  • Gender: Male
The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#10: May 23, 2021, 08:41:42 PM
Hi Marvin

   Thank you for posting and for being there ! You ha e been a real guiding light for me. I like you don’t think I could ever fix my marriage even if she wanted to at this point. I know we can’t fix them but I truly hope someday they do realize what has happened and are able to heal and grow.  If your ever in kg neck or the wood please hit me up. Dinner is on me !  Or maybe you depending on how this divorce works out lol !
  • Logged
Together 12 yrs Married 5
5 kids 3- Step (21) (20) (18) Two together ( 8 ) (9)
BD1 March 2018 - I wish I could give you more of what you need
BD2 Aug 2018 - I want a divorce sent by text ILWYBNILWY

O/M Discovered Nov-18

  • *****
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 13292
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#11: May 24, 2021, 05:52:00 AM
I didnt realize that you had not posted your story here, you have been posting here for 2 and a half years so glad you feel safe and happy enough to post here.

Time flies when your having a good time.

Keep giving back - it is good for you and for the others that read your story.
  • Logged

m
  • *
  • Subscriber, 12 Month
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 823
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#12: May 24, 2021, 06:07:06 AM
I didnt realize that you had not posted your story here, you have been posting here for 2 and a half years so glad you feel safe and happy enough to post here.

Time flies when your having a good time.

Keep giving back - it is good for you and for the others that read your story.

Thanks. It wasn’t a matter of feeling safe, this community is very good in that sense. Rather by the time I became more active here there was really not much going on, and I didn’t want to port many hundreds of entries all at once here. It didn’t make sense as it was all in the past. My wife and I have had minimal if any interaction for almost 3 years now, so there hasn’t been much of a “story” to post.

Trust me, in the “other” forum I have been told it was all my fault, that I caused my wife’s MLC, that maybe I myself am having an MLC, and that I am not a “real man” because I wasn’t raging about my wife having a PA. I was told that I was being CRUEL to my wife because by NOT filing for divorce immediately I was “leading her on.” My thought is that there are still a lot of hurt people and men are almost non existent in these forums. I think I may have become their “virtual MLCer” husband.

One of the many many strengths of this forum is the work of all the wonderful people (you and all the moderators and mentors) that help keep the discussions on track and create a safe space for others.
  • Logged
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

A
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 3565
  • Gender: Female
The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#13: May 24, 2021, 06:38:09 AM
Your own thread, Marvin!  I’m glad to see it. 

Quote
MLC is a colloquial terms for a significant psychological event.  Honestly it is easy to see when we are removed.

That is my view as well. 

I think it is easy to misapply the term to a person wanting a sea change at midlife but with no signs of psychological warfare going on inside of them.  Yes, I do believe you can see the ‘shattering of self’ — quoted from my H — when you detach and step back some distance away from the MLCer.   
  • Logged
Feb 2015: BD. 
Dec 2017: Seriously reconnecting

H never left home.

K
  • *
  • Trial Subscriber
  • Full Member
  • Posts: 142
  • Gender: Female
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#14: May 24, 2021, 07:19:20 AM
MLC is a colloquial terms for a significant psychological event. Honestly it is easy to see when we are removed. There are periods of deep disassociation (shark eyes), memory loss, total loss of empathy (which can be a hallmark of deep emotional pain, the psyche shuts down empathy just like the body will collect blood in the core, its emotional survival), and the rage and anger. In my Ws case she also started lying. When I caught her in the first lie it truly shocked me. She had not lied in 23 years, she had no need to

I can completely relate to this.  I also noticed a new way he began to manipulate and use people as pawns.
  • Logged
Me - 51, xh - 52
Together 26 years - Married 24 at separation
D - 23, S - 20
No BD - gradually moved out into our vacation house starting 8.20

N

Nas

  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 2864
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#15: May 24, 2021, 07:34:30 AM
I’ll just quote more Sade (works for now):

“Nothing's quite how it seems
The ghost of my joy
Won't let me be”



Love this, quote, it's perfect.  It encapsulates the intense feeling of loss when something ends or is taken from us abruptly.
And being a word nerd, I laser focus on the word "my" in this quote. 
As in: is all my joy existing only in the past with the ghosts? It could if I let it. The ghosts of our past joy can really grab a strong hold if we let them. 
It's okay to miss the past - it's normal and human to miss the people, places and things that we loved.  But there's still present and future joy that it would be a shame to miss out on - the vets on here really taught me that early on and I'm so grateful for it. 
  • Logged

  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 11403
  • Gender: Female
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#16: May 24, 2021, 08:00:04 AM
MLC is a colloquial terms for a significant psychological event. Honestly it is easy to see when we are removed. There are periods of deep disassociation (shark eyes), memory loss, total loss of empathy (which can be a hallmark of deep emotional pain, the psyche shuts down empathy just like the body will collect blood in the core, its emotional survival), and the rage and anger. In my Ws case she also started lying. When I caught her in the first lie it truly shocked me. She had not lied in 23 years, she had no need to

I can completely relate to this.  I also noticed a new way he began to manipulate and use people as pawns.

Most of us doubt it at times bc it is such an extraordinary thing to experience. I’m not sure that all of us were as quick to the realisation of it as you, Marvin, or perhaps it was just that our circumstances were different, idk.
But, yes, I think it is easier to judge for oneself with a bit of time and distance.
Or indeed sometimes to see from the outside in other people’s stories.
  • Logged
« Last Edit: May 24, 2021, 08:02:46 AM by Treasur »
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.
Healing and growing found here https://littleplotbythesea.wordpress.com

"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

  • *****
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 13292
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#17: May 24, 2021, 08:25:28 AM
that maybe I myself am having an MLC
To me this is not actually news because when we get bomb dropped. of course we go through a "crisis", of course we are in mid life so we are forced to change whether we want to or not.

Now this mid life crisis may be more civilized than the one our spouses display to us.
We can maybe control ourselves more and learn what is happening from others here.

It still is going to happen.

And yes this forum is great.

You can link to your other forum if you choose, I agree rewriting your story would be a huge waste of time.

Also my beginning story is on another forum(DB) and the rest of it is hidden away on this forum.
What counts is where you are now and where you move forward from here.


Anyways my .02
  • Logged
« Last Edit: May 24, 2021, 08:26:54 AM by OldPilot »

m
  • *
  • Subscriber, 12 Month
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 823
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#18: May 24, 2021, 08:31:50 AM
Father: would love to meet in person some day, and here is hoping your divorce (which i know was not your first choice) goes favorably for you. As always all you can do is take care of you and your kids, your W is on her own.

Acorn: that one thing, to know what we are truly facing, is SO critical. And so hard if you do not have experience with psychological constructs before the MLC truck splatters you. I would think it must be useful and healing to have your H be able to confirm what you saw externally, most don't get that.

Kimber: I assume this was not the case before? Significant personality or behaviour change is a good external clue of what is going on internally. My wife was so empathetic and compassionate, and it suddenly it went away.

Nas: words have power and depth when used and heard properly. I hadn't seen that part of it, thank you. Makes it even more powerful.

Treasur: honestly I think in the early days when our guards are not up, and we are SO firmly in having them in our innermost circle of trust it is near impossible to "get it." We have a very deep and strong map through which we see our spouses. You can't just flip on a dime and realize what is going on. And that is where the danger is, the trauma and hurt that happens until we can do that.

OP: I agree, for me it wasn't any kind of crises. I simply started re-examining my life, specially now that it was a life for one, not two. And it has let to a lot of personal growth and has reset me on a much better path in some ways. The whole comment was part of a slew of personal attacks. It got pretty ugly. If the link is acceptable I have put it below, if not please feel free to edit:

https://midlifeclubforum.com/index.php?topic=33966.0
  • Logged
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

  • *****
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 13292
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#19: May 24, 2021, 08:50:22 AM
If the link is acceptable I have put it below,

Its acceptable, all links on this forum are acceptable as long as they are not spam or triple xxx.




Edit - I just posted on your thread there, LOL it was my first post but I have been a member there for 5 years. LOL
  • Logged
« Last Edit: May 24, 2021, 08:55:16 AM by OldPilot »

A
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 3565
  • Gender: Female
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#20: May 24, 2021, 12:52:15 PM
that maybe I myself am having an MLC
To me this is not actually news because when we get bomb dropped. of course we go through a "crisis", of course we are in mid life so we are forced to change whether we want to or not.

Yes, I agree.

Now this mid life crisis may be more civilized than the one our spouses display to us.
We can maybe control ourselves more and learn what is happening from others here.

Perhaps, it’s a grief ‘crisis,’ rather than a midlife crisis for some of us? 

We go through the stages of grief — the most widely known are the 5 stages of Denial · Anger · Bargaining · Depression · Acceptance — at the loss of marriage as we have known. 

I would not be surprised at all if that grieving process is sometimes erroneously self-labelled as MLC.  And no wonder, seeing how closely the stages of MLC, as theorized by Conway and HB, resemble the stages of Grief. 

Sure, when we get off the floor where we had lain in fetal position for a while after BD, we may do a grand stocktake of our lives thus far, see what we can change, redefine the vision for our future, take proactive action towards some achievable and necessary goals.  It is a drastic change of course at midlife we are obliged to take because of the changed circumstances that were forced upon us.  I personally would not call that a midlife crisis. 

  • Logged
« Last Edit: May 24, 2021, 12:55:29 PM by Acorn »
Feb 2015: BD. 
Dec 2017: Seriously reconnecting

H never left home.

  • *
  • Mentor
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 11618
  • Gender: Female
The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#21: May 24, 2021, 02:36:28 PM
Quote
Sure, when we get off the floor where we had lain in fetal position for a while after BD, we may do a grand stocktake of our lives thus far, see what we can change, redefine the vision for our future, take proactive action towards some achievable and necessary goals.  It is a drastic change of course at midlife we are obliged to take because of the changed circumstances that were forced upon us.  I personally would not call that a midlife crisis.

 I actually don't know about using the word crisis for what the LBSer goes through...to me it has been more like PTSD. I think the difference for me is that a crisis can be resolved...there are steps you can take to lessen the impact, and rebuild and for sure that is what some of what we are doing is...but PTSD..I am not sure that can be resolved by rebuilding our life.

There are triggers , depression, anxiety, malaise, fear that lingers long after BD. For some (and I would say this is true for me) it has not been possible to look at the present or the future with enthusiasm...and I have tried..therapy, yoga, travel..the only thing I haven't tried is having another intimate relationship....and to be perfectly honest...I can't. So much damage, so much shutting down of that spirit..it just isn't possible.

I work on these things, I don't want to be like this and certainly it is less so than the first couple of years..but trauma and the deep wounding that occurred has not been resolved.

I am at an interesting place in therapy (that in itself is significant, never having required therapy in 55 years, I am now 12 years past BD and continue in therapy)..one in which I cannot seem to take the next step..and I HATE this...I hate what this trauma did to me, to the person I was.

It could also be that 15 months of isolation due to COVID from all my family, of not being allowed to cross the border into Canada is also contributing significantly to my sense of "blah". Couples had one another thorough the crisis..the loneliness I feel now is so acute ..thank God for the vaccine which is slowly allowing me some human contact again.

Just a different perspective form one who hasn't been able to "build a new life" that has been pleasing to me.
  • Logged
« Last Edit: May 24, 2021, 02:38:28 PM by xyzcf »
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 1443
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#22: May 24, 2021, 04:00:55 PM
I didnt realize that you had not posted your story here, you have been posting here for 2 and a half years so glad you feel safe and happy enough to post here.

Time flies when your having a good time.

Keep giving back - it is good for you and for the others that read your story.

Thanks. It wasn’t a matter of feeling safe, this community is very good in that sense. Rather by the time I became more active here there was really not much going on, and I didn’t want to port many hundreds of entries all at once here. It didn’t make sense as it was all in the past. My wife and I have had minimal if any interaction for almost 3 years now, so there hasn’t been much of a “story” to post.

Trust me, in the “other” forum I have been told it was all my fault, that I caused my wife’s MLC, that maybe I myself am having an MLC, and that I am not a “real man” because I wasn’t raging about my wife having a PA. I was told that I was being CRUEL to my wife because by NOT filing for divorce immediately I was “leading her on.” My thought is that there are still a lot of hurt people and men are almost non existent in these forums. I think I may have become their “virtual MLCer” husband.

One of the many many strengths of this forum is the work of all the wonderful people (you and all the moderators and mentors) that help keep the discussions on track and create a safe space for others.


That sounds awful Marvin......... so glad you gave up on that place...... what a terrible thing to hear when you're doing your best and far beyond what most would do.  :)

-SS
  • Logged
W - 40
M - 44
Together 25 years, M 23
No kids
BD - 27th April 2019
Start of Shadow - Feb 2012

m
  • *
  • Subscriber, 12 Month
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 823
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#23: May 24, 2021, 04:14:10 PM
Acorn: completely agree. Its not a crises or transition to take a path that adapts us to a new reality and acceptance. Or if it moves us to put energy into our own growth and understanding. I would think that is something that we all ideally should ALWAYS be engaged in. The fruits of this labor is not just a peaceful and fulfilled life for us, but it expands our ability to be there for others and make the lives of others better imho.

xyzcf: sorry to hear this is where you find yourself. I can understand the amount of pain and grief. I do think we can have PTSD from events as adults. But generally a wound or a shock doesn't always end up as trauma. As adults, if we have developed good coping mechanisms, have flexibility and self soothing and security, a deep wound is processed and slowly shift, resolved, or worked around. Trauma usually happens when we are not capable of processing. Our pain or fear is "frozen" in a sense. This is much more likely to happen in our youth, as we have not yet developed our full coping structures. And usually involves caretakers, as they actually hold a position that is life and death to a child.

What I am saying is that sometimes there are traumas that are not identified from earlier. We can live completely functional lives without addressing them. But then they may get triggered. Trauma doesn't lend itself to traditional talk therapy. Mainly because it exists at a different "level" of our functionality. I know quite a few excellent trauma therapists who would say any trauma can be shifted and processed. But it takes the right desire and the right therapist. Not saying at all that any of that applies to you, just general information.

I know in my case I had already done a great deal of work on abandonment trauma from childhood. And yet BD1 triggered another layer which also helped me figure out what was going on (ironic isn't it? A trauma being triggered opened my eyes to the fact that what was going on wasn't "normal.")

SS: thank you, I would say it was fun, but it wasn't. But even in the constant attacks it forced me to examine my own beliefs and what I wanted. The only issue, which I kept trying to get across with minimal success, is that their vitriol while not harmful to me may be extremely damaging to someone who is in a more fragile state. In fact a few people reached out to me privately to say they would not post, but carried on private conversations so they could share and feel safe. Feeling safe is such a critical thing to get to after our lives are shattered.
  • Logged
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

m
  • *
  • Subscriber, 12 Month
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 823
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#24: May 26, 2021, 04:12:35 AM
As I sit here drinking coffee, the day before my W arrives, I am checking in with myself. What is today? The calm before the storm? The day before I stick my hand in the blender? Funny enough I am in a place of calm and not caring. Its simply Wednesday.

This is important because I would like to ask the veterans here to help keep me “honest.” I am trying to make sure I am not in denial. That I am remaining clear eyed, detached, firmly grounded in reality. I know myself well enough to know that its hard to not fall into habits of 23 years of a relationship, even when the relationship is long dead and gone. It is hard to be around someone who looks and sounds like you best friend, but honestly right now is a fracture of fragments, most likely in a bit of pain and anxiety, and not really capable of giving much to anyone.

I keep reminding myself of this, and so far I seem to remember. This feels like having a work acquaintance come and stay at your place. I do not plan to stay here myself, I have arranged for alternative lodgings. But I will be coming and going. I plan to leave any amount of contact (or none) up to her, I have no need nor desire to spend time outside of a normal “how have you been” visit, which will happen on the drive from airport to dropping her at the house. And I volunteered just as a good time limited “check in” and because due to her non-vaccination status she is very concerned about public transportation (rightly so).

Now off to prepare the cats, I am sure they will be confused. I am thankful, specially in light of other threads and other stories, that I only have to worry about the cats and not any kids. I could not imagine how children would be coping with a random visit.
  • Logged
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 1239
  • Gender: Female
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#25: May 26, 2021, 04:40:24 AM
No veteran here but following your journey. I actually "met you" in the other forum so I know how harsh the comments were.. I was only a newbie at the time and I was glad to find HS as I felt too fragile to take the punches you were getting. HS gave me space to get over the first few months that were so raw and mind-blowing, making me feel like I was in a safe place.

I'm curious to see how the visit goes. My H also moved away, he's been gone for 2 and a half years and all our communication in the last 2 years has been strictly business. I have moved on with my life but I do wonder how I would feel if he came back.. am I really detached or will feelings and emotions rush back in if I see him? When they leave, the LBS exposure to their crazy world decreases. I'm not sure if that's a good or a bad thing but I find it very strange. The person that once was the centre of our lives all of the sudden vanishes. Sometimes I think his death would have been easier to accept and understand. Anyway, I'll be following your updates. I hope the visit doesn't upset your progress. Stay strong!
  • Logged
H - 44 (40 @BD1)
M - 44 (40 @BD1)
Together 15 years, M 8 @separation
No kids
BD1 - 26th Aug 2017 (Not happy, life has no purpose)
BD2 - 22nd March 2018 (Marriage is over, we want different things, confessed EA with someone 12,000 kms away although "she means nothing")
H moved in with parents 11th May 2018 (I asked him to leave as couldn't handle the EA rubbed all over my face)
H moved abroad 29th Dec 2018, not sure if OW will join him or if they are still in contact.
Confirmation H and OW are together, presume PA  - 3rd June 2019
H gets engaged with OW (we are not divorced) - Oct 2019
H "finally" asks for divorce - Aug 2020
H marries OW - March 2021.. We are not divorced!!!

"One of the happiest moments in life is when you find the courage to let go of what you can’t change

  • *
  • Mentor
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 11618
  • Gender: Female
The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#26: May 26, 2021, 06:24:54 AM
Quote
This is important because I would like to ask the veterans here to help keep me “honest.” I am trying to make sure I am not in denial.

I too am drinking my morning cappucino ( ;D) and from my vantage point you are not at all in denial. Regardless of what has transpired, there are always going to be strong feelings, good and bad to this person, and yes, for some of us, there is still love for them and that is ok. That is what being human means.

I look forward to hearing your description and analysis of this time. It is always very insightful.

I shake my head at what happened on the other site...I guess hurting people hurt people. Occasionally there have been blow ups on HS and perhaps I a "rewriting" history but I think often they were due to differences of opinions and not personal attacks although there have been some of those as well.

I am glad you  brought this up though because it is something for us all to be aware of. We don't know the whole story behind each person's story or what they are facing....most of the time, people on HS are kind and wish to support and help one another. Many friendships have been made here.

I am smiling at a memory I have of the support I received...I had not seen my husband for 19 months and our daughter was graduating from college...I had several HS members help me to get through that contact...no one else really could understand what I was feeling or going through but these people could. OP, Voyager from across the pond, Trusting, Stayed and others ....I was such a mess and now when I look back, as expressed in a previous post that may have sounded like I am still a mess, there are circumstances that are out of my control that have nothing to do with him that I am trying to cope with....

Anyway, you got this.
  • Logged
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

N

Nas

  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 2864
The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#27: May 26, 2021, 06:47:27 AM
Another one here enjoying some morning coffee.  ;)

You don't seem in denial to me.  You seem well prepared for the possibility that normal human emotions may be at play upon seeing someone after so long, someone you shared a long and very strong connection with.  And understandably, since it hasn't happened yet, you don't quite know what those emotions will be.
They may surprise you, they may not. 

If she is, as you feel, at a 3 on the 1 (old self)-10(full blown MLC) scale, that hopefully means her visit will not be any real disruption to your "new normal."  You seem well past the roller coaster highs and lows...she may be as well, but even if she's not, you have the toolkit that allows you to check in with yourself and do what's right for you, knowing you can't affect or change her.

As for the other forum, as xyz said, hurt people hurt people - and angry people are just that, very hurt people hiding their hurt under a cloak of anger.  I am just now remembering that a good while ago, I started a discussion thread here called "How we treat each other on the forum" - that's how we've traditionally rolled here when things start to go sideways, we talk it out and discuss it instead of allowing prolonged abuse and bashing of other members.  It may not always be sunshine and rainbows, but it's always meant to lead to healing and better understanding of each other.
I'm glad you're sharing your story here, glad you feel able to do so, and glad you've been here for a while now lending so much support to others in need.
  • Logged

t
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 816
  • Gender: Female
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#28: May 26, 2021, 06:58:08 AM
Good morning marvin, and may it be full of blessings and steady peace today. I think I have been a member on that site for years too, but I haven’t been there since about a month after I registered.

I hope you will find that when some of the typical old dynamics turn up, they are automatically different now because of how you’ve leaned and grown during the partner’s absence. H and I both were stunned when he offered provocation and I didn’t respond to it the usual ways at all. That can make for some minor awkwardness as both participants adjust to the new calm, but it also paves a new path of respect and respectability, and I think also peace for the one who had felt most chaotic.

I always felt I was the one who felt most chaotic, being that he knew what he was up to. Or did he?

Trust that your reflexes are different and better informed and more grounded now. That’s beautiful, no matter what state of mind anyone else is in.

When I read your opening post a few minutes after you’d posted it, I audibly exclaimed and my jaw hit the floor. And I couldn’t even write a response, until now. So just know that here there are prayers up for you, ever since.

You’ve got this. Smart you, taking alternate accommodations; I’ll have to remember that for any “just in case”.

There may be tears, at the end of your day as you reflect on it all wherever you are. That’s a positive release, so let them come and flow and then abate, even if it hurts while you do. Just let it all flow through. Really rooting here for you both.
  • Logged

A
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 3565
  • Gender: Female
The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#29: May 26, 2021, 07:03:50 AM
The only thing I would like to say to you is to continue just being your authentic self.
I know you won’t try to read her mind, read between the lines, analyze her, analyze all the interactions, or predict the course of relationship — because you are very well aware that you ain’t a psychic, or a psychiatrist, or a prophet. 

All the best! 
  • Logged
Feb 2015: BD. 
Dec 2017: Seriously reconnecting

H never left home.

  • *
  • Mentor
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 11396
  • Gender: Male
  • You can't please everyone. You are NOT a pizza!
The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#30: May 26, 2021, 07:09:17 AM
Hi Marvin,

De-nile is a river in Egypt and you are NOT sailing on it... By taking alternate accommodations during her visit, you have decoupled your own life from whatever Rollercoaster your Mid-Lifer happens to be riding when she arrives. That is not denial, that is putting yourself in a good position to respond to whatever situation arises. Keep in mind that we can certainly create scenarios in our minds that can be MUCH more vivid/worse than anything reality can provide aka Monkey-Braining... So keep the monkeys in their cages... <grin>. Other than that, you are in a good position to remain detached during her visit.

If she is finally in the process of getting her head out of her ... fog.... then your being grounded and detached will only produce positive results... 
  • Logged
Me - 58, xW - 50
Together 19 years - Married 17 at separation & 21 at D-Day
S - 14, D - 10
2 Dogs
BD#1 - August 2015
Atomic BD - 13 Dec 2015
House sold & separated - Mar 2016
Divorce final 30 August 2019

Survival Instructions for Newbies
Site Map
 
A "friend" will not "stand by you" no matter what you do. That is NOT a friend. That is an enabler. That is an accomplice.
A REAL friend will sit you down and tell you to your face to stop being a firetrucking idiot before you ruin your life and the lives of those around you.

N

Nas

  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 2864
The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#31: May 26, 2021, 07:18:25 AM
Actually, a question that just occurred to me upon reading the last few responses - and I understand my perspective is also coming from a place of having a more compromised immune system than others.
I believe you are vaccinated, and she's coming here to get vaccinated.
So her staying there (I imagine she'll have to quarantine - or no, because she's getting vaccinated? Not sure of the rules anymore) is not necessarily a threat to you and your healthy immune system.  Is it at all disruptive to YOU to take alternate accommodations, rather than having her stay elsewhere?  I mean disruptive in all ways: emotionally, physically, logistically with caring for your pets, etc.
This was just something that popped into my mind as I read - you are what matters here, your comfort, your stability. (Okay, just realizing my question is also coming from my own feelings on stability - so keep that in mind.  Were I at a different point in my life, I might actually enjoy the "uprooting" out of my regular day to day.)
Anyway, you asked for questions - just obliging here, lol.
  • Logged

m
  • *
  • Subscriber, 12 Month
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 823
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#32: May 26, 2021, 07:20:43 AM
One day at a time: thanks, glad to know it wasn't just me who thought it got bad over there. I was going to re-visit some posts to "refresh" but realized how toxic and polluted that thread was and I thought better of it. Its a shame.

xyzcf and Nas: thank you both and it is very different here. There has never been toxicity directed at someone and if it has been it has been addressed. Moderation is key. And I have had very nice e-mails from members I may have disagreed publicly (and I like to do the same) to clarify and reduce the tension. That is here, over there my outreaches have gone completely ignored, and been met with more public attack.

I am definitely not on the roller-coaster, in fact I am not on the ride in any way shape of form. I am sitting across the river, on a nice cafe by the water, looking across with my monocle (no idea why a monocle but bear with me here), looking at the ride from a distance.

terra: you are very correct, I already observe how non reactive I am to anything that happens or when she just pops up. As I was saying its like hearing from a work acquaintance. Smile, nod, nothing important and done. Its the "hooks" that we have that I will watch out for. Honestly not sure why you were surprised, my reaction to her announcement that she was coming back in a few days was internally "of course you are!"

Acorn: I am not a psychic, not a psychiatrist (?), not a prophet. But I may be psychotic! Well but that's a who other thing now... :)

UM: Thank you. I am rather sure this is another turn round the circle. I do not think the odds of most MLCers finding the "get me off this thing button" is high at all despite all the hopes and wishes we have. You know what they say, if wishes were horses...

Thank you all for your support. It is very helpful and nice and I AM NOT USED TO IT! Why aren't you attacking me in coordinated groups? :)
  • Logged
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

m
  • *
  • Subscriber, 12 Month
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 823
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#33: May 26, 2021, 07:26:43 AM
Actually, a question that just occurred to me upon reading the last few responses - and I understand my perspective is also coming from a place of having a more compromised immune system than others.
I believe you are vaccinated, and she's coming here to get vaccinated.
So her staying there (I imagine she'll have to quarantine - or no, because she's getting vaccinated? Not sure of the rules anymore) is not necessarily a threat to you and your healthy immune system.  Is it at all disruptive to YOU to take alternate accommodations, rather than having her stay elsewhere?  I mean disruptive in all ways: emotionally, physically, logistically with caring for your pets, etc.
This was just something that popped into my mind as I read - you are what matters here, your comfort, your stability. (Okay, just realizing my question is also coming from my own feelings on stability - so keep that in mind.  Were I at a different point in my life, I might actually enjoy the "uprooting" out of my regular day to day.)
Anyway, you asked for questions - just obliging here, lol.

Great question. It is not for my safety, and yes she does have to quarantine for 14 days. And she is frightened to date of dying of Covid (much more than normal caution, she is not high risk and I believe its all part of her high anxiety, she didn't use to be this way).

It is not very disruptive to me. In fact when I told her she could stay at the house, and I would make arrangements she said she didn't mind if I stayed there too. I didn't respond, I simply made arrangement for an AirBnB. The cats will be taken care off, I am near the house so I can grab things, etc.

There are two reasons: we are still legally married and she a right to stay at the house. She didn't ask but it is "right" that she get use of it to. Also whether she knows it or not it is "home." If she needs a safe emotional space then being "home" is a good thing. I don't think it will fix anything. Like all MLCers after proclaiming how she is leaving and never coming back she left almost everything of her behind. I have put away most of her mess as I reclaimed the house, but have left her work room and where she had things alone. This will give her space and time alone to do with as she pleases. And I may be heading back overseas in a couple of weeks anyway (it was already planned).

Depending how she is doing this may also be a chance to sort some technical details out.
  • Logged
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 11403
  • Gender: Female
The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#34: May 26, 2021, 07:42:28 AM
Quote
Thank you all for your support. It is very helpful and nice and I AM NOT USED TO IT! Why aren't you attacking me in coordinated groups? :)

We could form an angry anti-monocle sub-group, if that helps?  :) (Although tbh, speaking personally, if it was good enough for Lord Peter Wimsey etc etc....)
  • Logged
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.
Healing and growing found here https://littleplotbythesea.wordpress.com

"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

C
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 726
  • Gender: Female
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#35: May 26, 2021, 08:41:56 AM
So much great food for thought in this discussion.


I hope you will find that when some of the typical old dynamics turn up, they are automatically different now because of how you’ve leaned and grown during the partner’s absence. H and I both were stunned when he offered provocation and I didn’t respond to it the usual ways at all. That can make for some minor awkwardness as both participants adjust to the new calm, but it also paves a new path of respect and respectability, and I think also peace for the one who had felt most chaotic.

I always felt I was the one who felt most chaotic, being that he knew what he was up to. Or did he?

Trust that your reflexes are different and better informed and more grounded now. That’s beautiful, no matter what state of mind anyone else is in.


This is such an important thing to consider, and right at the heart of how one person acting alone can completely change the dynamic of a relationship. Eventually, both people have to contribute if the relationship is to move forward in a collaborative way, if it is to be any kind of partnership - but just as she completely changed the dynamic unilaterally at BD, and you were in a place of reacting to that; you are changing the dynamic from chaos back to calm. How she will react or respond to that depends on where she is emotionally. How you will respond to the reality of the interactions is unknown too, but I gather it will be from a place of authenticity and empathy because that is the person you have shown yourself to be.

I also really appreciate your thoughts on her accommodations. The concept that it’s her home too, and it’s right that she be able to use it... and maybe more importantly, wanting home to be someplace that feels like a safe place for her to be. I am on a different timeline, and perhaps the dynamic is different - but as someone who shares pets but no children with my MLCer, the shared home is a large part of the tangible bond between us. When she became too anxious to live at home, even after her EA had ended, that was devastating to me - because of what it seemed to signal for the marriage, but also because I never wanted her to feel like home was anything other than a safe space. Her frequent visits during the separation were reassuring and calming... I like to think I would have reached a place of detachment and not personalizing her actions and emotions regardless of her style of contact, but I can’t deny that it felt better for me to see that she reached a place where she could be here comfortably, and that she wanted to be here. And two months ago, she moved back in. Nothing remotely resembling relationship talks, nothing I am willing to consider reconnection, but home is once again truly home for her, and I am happy that she has that safe space once again, no matter what eventually happens with us.

I wish you continued peace and calm and strength as you navigate these new circumstances. Please know that you have a supportive community here.
  • Logged

  • *
  • Mentor
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 11396
  • Gender: Male
  • You can't please everyone. You are NOT a pizza!
The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#36: May 26, 2021, 08:47:59 AM
Quote
Thank you all for your support. It is very helpful and nice and I AM NOT USED TO IT! Why aren't you attacking me in coordinated groups? :)

We could form an angry anti-monocle sub-group, if that helps?  :) (Although tbh, speaking personally, if it was good enough for Lord Peter Wimsey etc etc....)

I actually registered for that alternative group and was never accepted.... so I came here...

But, if you insist, I think we can accommodate....
  • Logged
Me - 58, xW - 50
Together 19 years - Married 17 at separation & 21 at D-Day
S - 14, D - 10
2 Dogs
BD#1 - August 2015
Atomic BD - 13 Dec 2015
House sold & separated - Mar 2016
Divorce final 30 August 2019

Survival Instructions for Newbies
Site Map
 
A "friend" will not "stand by you" no matter what you do. That is NOT a friend. That is an enabler. That is an accomplice.
A REAL friend will sit you down and tell you to your face to stop being a firetrucking idiot before you ruin your life and the lives of those around you.

  • *****
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 13292
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#37: May 26, 2021, 09:51:58 AM
Quote
Thank you all for your support. It is very helpful and nice and I AM NOT USED TO IT! Why aren't you attacking me in coordinated groups? :)

We could form an angry anti-monocle sub-group, if that helps?  :) (Although tbh, speaking personally, if it was good enough for Lord Peter Wimsey etc etc....)

I actually registered for that alternative group and was never accepted.... so I came here...

But, if you insist, I think we can accommodate....


These guys are headed to the COVID thread right now!

Watch out!
  • Logged

  • ****
  • Sr. Member
  • Posts: 379
  • Gender: Male
The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#38: May 26, 2021, 11:53:30 AM
Marvin !

You are going to do great ! We are here for you if you need.
  • Logged
Together 12 yrs Married 5
5 kids 3- Step (21) (20) (18) Two together ( 8 ) (9)
BD1 March 2018 - I wish I could give you more of what you need
BD2 Aug 2018 - I want a divorce sent by text ILWYBNILWY

O/M Discovered Nov-18

  • *
  • Mentor
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 2963
  • Gender: Female
  • Time is a Gift! 🎁
The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#39: May 31, 2021, 04:10:27 PM
Marvin, I never realized you hadn't shared your story here, just thought it somehow got buried in the archives and that you chose not to continue posting in it.

I'm glad that you have decided to dedicate a thread to you.  Hear hear!

  • Logged
Survival Instructions for Newbies

The Apology Every LBS Deserves

My Journey

"Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass - it's about learning to dance in the rain."

"Don't become a container for bitterness.  It's a toxin that destroys what it's carried in."

J

Jo

  • *
  • Trial Subscriber
  • Newbie
  • Posts: 10
  • Gender: Female
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#40: June 01, 2021, 11:17:31 AM
Howdy all, I'm Jo, and I was on the other forum for ten years. It was a life saver for me too, back then, but as Marvin shared, that over the past couple of years it became a ghost town of posters, but hundreds of readers for the exact reason Marvin described.  No moderation was what I believe was the final undoing.

Group attacks regularly occurred in waves from some sub groups of lbs folks. There were the bitter bus folks, the judgement folks, my way or the highway folks, I'm right and you're wrong folks, You haven't paid your dues folks, you must be only told the truth folks (without ANY regard to where that person my be in their shock and awe phase, and others I won't mention, ad nauseum.)

Yet, there were many long term lbs vets who tirelessly gave back, that made that forum a library of mlc wisdom.  But sadly  so many times, the assistance being offered to the newbies became diluted by the above mentioned  sub groups or clicks.  The bitter bus folks were the most difficult to navigate around because their issues often times spewed into every post, and would derail the intent of the thread. This left the newbies afraid to post the truth.  I was always on the look our for the newbies because I knew how fragile they were upon finding the forum for support. Over the years, I had made my personal email and phone number available and have worked with a few suicidal people.

Another vet on the forum brought Marvin's thread to my attention due to the bullying. That's the one thing I could not stand and the other vet knew I'd pounce. When I found my way to Marvin's thread, it was already 18 pages deep. He was posting in the crisis section and I had focused on the divorce section as I some how through skinned knees became the de facto divorce lbs vet. As I waded through Marvin's story, I became livid and wanted to restore the forum back to a place where folks could share their story, instead of defending why they were taking the approaches they were taking in baby steps.

I'm happy to have found this forum, although I've been more of a reader thus far in the last few months, but saw Marvin's thread here about his story and was so so pleased to see such support as it should be. Support over judges and jurors. Marvin came to that forum for support, but I believe that he became a few click's punching bag ONLY BECAUSE he was male! The anger that flowed from the responses he was getting was displaced anger. I saw many a woman poster saying things to Marvin that they wished the could have said to their mlcrs. It was awful, and intolerable, and why people were afraid to post updates, and they stopped.

Because I've followed Marvin's story for the last 3.6 years, with great interest, I read about this new development with the arrival of his wife. Marvin you are far from being in denial, in fact, I'm impressed with your 20/20 vision. You have the learned reflexes of a cat and you know NOT to touch the hot stove. Your memory for having your heart ripped out with a spoon is right under the surface. You have learned that your wife's return is just another cycle and as her need for an emotionally safe place to recharge her mlcr batteries could just as easily cycle back to any number of the cycles going back to day one, and she'll bolt again, or she'll return to the blame game that this is all your fault . I know our instinct is to think that our mlcr spouse is FINALLY coming out of the fog, but, as so many vets here will attest, there is no expiration date on this fracture we anoint as mlc, and no crystal ball to predict anything. Long term actions not words (and lots of therapy for her) will dictate the kind of person she becomes IF her significant psychological event lessens and she cycles less. I know through all of my former husband's cycles, I got sucked into his cycles with my own triage of cycles just to get through them. Ever hear of that old joke about Montana's weather?   "If you don't like the weather here, just wait fifteen minutes."

That's what I know from the cycling. A cycle can come and go in five minutes, then come back to BD all over again. There is no predicting where their psyches are going to take them, let alone do they know what they mean. I think it shows great strength to allow her to come back to her home, yet not her life with you. I can imagine how your strength will either confuse her, or direct her. I hope that other lbs will also see that her return home is just geography, and not read too much hope into the physical return.  She's not returning to the marriage and this return is not your wife coming to her senses and in her current level 3 condition, I don't believe she's capable of rational thought about the status of her marriage she abandoned 3.6 years ago. Your wife is a runner. She runs when she cannot cope or comprehend what is happening to her. Now if she stopped running and faced her fears, that would be something to hang hope on. Not for your marriage, but for her surviving her own mlc.

You're practicing excellent self-care by making alternative living arrangement and keeping that boundary firm. You're letting your wife lead, which is all you can do. You're not on that ride anymore, but you know to hang on to your growth and your work on you, for your own self preservation. No hot stove for you!!

I'm glad to have found you here on this site and that you're doing so well. I can tell by the loving and supportive comments that you're in good hands. I look forward to you sharing more of your wife's return home journey. I like that you're still moving forward and that her return is not interrupting your plans to go abroad for six months.  That's an ocean away from denial.

Hugs,
Jo
  • Logged
« Last Edit: June 01, 2021, 01:52:46 PM by xyzcf »
Married 18 years, 3 sons
BD and served divorce papers on same day, 9 months after I had surgery for a brain tumor.
EA and PA while I was recovering from surgery
Deep FOO
Ex filed for phony bankruptcy 11 days after family court concluded.
Ten years of litigation to save my life's work stolen by ex.

  • *
  • Mentor
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 11618
  • Gender: Female
The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#41: June 01, 2021, 12:01:52 PM
Jo, thank you for posting on Hero's Spouse.

Newbies require something a bit different than people further along. They are already so shocked/broken and the pain...OMG....never had I ever experienced such pain.

I just wanted to state that marvin has personally been really helpful to me. He knows how to point out things that I cannot see, and he does it with kindness and compassion and I am very grateful for the interactions we have had.

He also does the same for other posters and brings great information about trauma and COVID to our forum. I am glad he found his way here.

Hope all is going well with you both and welcome Jo to Hero's Spouse!
  • Logged
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

m
  • *
  • Subscriber, 12 Month
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 823
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#42: June 01, 2021, 06:27:26 PM
Thank you everyone, its good to know I have both people who are looking out for me and will come to attack me as a mob! It’s just like home!  ;D

So here is a quick update. I picked her up from the airport and took her back to the house. We talked on the way back, nothing deep, just catching up, people, things, what’s been going on. Its talk like two friends who haven’t seen each other for a while. She seems to be doing better than she has in a while, I would still say a 3 out of 10. She looks like she has low grade but constant depression, a little bit of the fire has gone out of her. When we arrived she seemed genuinely happy to be home, she got out of the car and was walking around the garden. She kept saying “wow everything has gotten so much bigger, how long has it been?” Well it has been over 2 years since she had been at the house. I am staying at an AirBnB so I dropped her off and headed out after a while as she was tired.

The next morning she called me to ask if she could move furniture around. Short version is she has rearranged a lot of the house, has started making spaces for herself, and is planning on putting up painting she had bought before BD1 that had been sitting around in closets of just sitting in a corner. She didn’t discuss this with me, which is interesting. Essentially my best guess is she is reclaiming her space. I don’t think this is strategic, rather psychological. She seems tired of running for now, keeps saying how tired she is of the place she was staying and doesn’t want to go back (while she shares stories about the place and uses the phrase “us” about her and the OM doing things together). Yes its the basic duality that seems to exist in her mind.

Friday night she wanted to cook out and have dinner and we were talking. She at one point just popped out and asked me whether I was going to spend weekend with my GF, and I said yes. I don’t tell her anything about that part of my life (or my life in general) but I will not lie if she asks. She seemed fine with the idea, but seemed to want me to stay around. I think she is simply lonely. And I think part of her recognizes her friend.

On Monday we again had dinner and when I was heading out she said “you know you don’t have to leave.” She didn’t mean that in any other way as we have multiple bedrooms and I could just stay in my own room in the house. I didn’t want to get into it and simply said “well the last time we were together you didn’t want me around, let’s talk about it tomorrow.” She then said she would like me to hang around the house, we didn’t have to do things together, but she liked having me around. After this she has mostly avoided me today.

So this brief recap should be no surprise to any of you. There is fracture, there is contradiction, there are bits of my friend and bits of someone else. She wants to be close, but doesn’t come close. She looks at me and smiles (which has not happened in a long time), but she also seems to still be very weary. It seems like she wants to say something, but can’t say it. And to me she looks a little sad, a little more connected, and doesn’t seem to be running as hard. But its all most likely a cycle. I think right now part of her wants to settle down in her house, stay put and maybe recoup. But I don’t know how long it will last, I am guessing not long.

I am doing ok staying detached. I am not feeling much of a pull or a push, I am just there. Only thing I have to be on guard and fight is the need to jump in and help like when were very close. It wasn’t necessarily good then and it is completely inappropriate now for many reasons. Among them is that its none of my business and its not my job, she is not a child. Second it if she has a chance to recover she has to do it herself.

Final note is that this has led to a lot of talks between my GF and I. They have not been easy, but is has led to a lot of good healthy talks and ultimately we are closer. And ironically by confronting her concerns and us being able to talk them through she feels safer and more connected.

I am hoping that my friend can find a footing and find herself to happiness, I want to be optimistic but my eyes are wide open to the odds.
  • Logged
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 11403
  • Gender: Female
The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#43: June 01, 2021, 10:02:07 PM
No, doesn’t sound like you are swimming in De Nile  :)

Sounds as if your wife/friend views you, perhaps unconsciously, as a kind of comfort blanket right now though....I guess that is where you will need to keep those good boundaries, Marvin. Bc of course you are a real splendid human not a psychological blankie  :)

Understandable that her reappearance led to a conversation with your GF though and i’m glad that it turned out to be a fruitful one. I don’t know if your gf has much experience of this kind of stuff but it’s a long way from normal for normal folks of course and she knows you to be someone who cared very much about the wife you had....makes sense that it might be a bit unsettling.

And how lovely that Jo has joined us to cheer you on! We are very grateful that your online travails elsewhere brought you here as a wise measured voice  :)
  • Logged
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.
Healing and growing found here https://littleplotbythesea.wordpress.com

"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

  • *
  • Mentor
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 11396
  • Gender: Male
  • You can't please everyone. You are NOT a pizza!
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#44: June 02, 2021, 01:43:56 AM
Thank you everyone, its good to know I have both people who are looking out for me and will come to attack me as a mob! It’s just like home!  ;D

Hey, what are friends for if not to incite a mob? LOL

So here is a quick update. I picked her up from the airport and took her back to the house. <...snip...>

The next morning she called me to ask if she could move furniture around. <...snip...>Yes its the basic duality that seems to exist in her mind.

Friday night she wanted to cook out and have dinner and we were talking. She at one point just popped out and asked me whether I was going to spend weekend with my GF, and I said yes. I don’t tell her anything about that part of my life (or my life in general) but I will not lie if she asks. She seemed fine with the idea, but seemed to want me to stay around. I think she is simply lonely. And I think part of her recognizes her friend.

<...snip..>
So this brief recap should be no surprise to any of you. There is fracture, there is contradiction, there are bits of my friend and bits of someone else. She wants to be close, but doesn’t come close. She looks at me and smiles (which has not happened in a long time), but she also seems to still be very weary. It seems like she wants to say something, but can’t say it. And to me she looks a little sad, a little more connected, and doesn’t seem to be running as hard. But its all most likely a cycle. I think right now part of her wants to settle down in her house, stay put and maybe recoup. But I don’t know how long it will last, I am guessing not long.

Holy Spin Cycle, Batman!

I'm getting a WTF overload just reading this....

I am doing ok staying detached. I am not feeling much of a pull or a push, I am just there. Only thing I have to be on guard and fight is the need to jump in and help like when were very close. It wasn’t necessarily good then and it is completely inappropriate now for many reasons. Among them is that its none of my business and its not my job, she is not a child. Second it if she has a chance to recover she has to do it herself.

GOOD FOR YOU!



Final note is that this has led to a lot of talks between my GF and I. They have not been easy, but is has led to a lot of good healthy talks and ultimately we are closer. And ironically by confronting her concerns and us being able to talk them through she feels safer and more connected.

That is good too. Your R with GF is really none of the Mid-Lifer's concern as she chose to leave long ago.

I am hoping that my friend can find a footing and find herself to happiness, I want to be optimistic but my eyes are wide open to the odds.

Exactly. One can hope that the Mid-Lifer can get their head put back on straight and find their way out of the pit while still NOT wanting to be part of the rescue team that is in charge of getting them out.... This is really something that the Mid-Lifer MUST do for themselves in order for it to be true growth and healing....

Can't go over it, can't go under it, can't go around it... OH NO! Have to go THROUGH it!
  • Logged
Me - 58, xW - 50
Together 19 years - Married 17 at separation & 21 at D-Day
S - 14, D - 10
2 Dogs
BD#1 - August 2015
Atomic BD - 13 Dec 2015
House sold & separated - Mar 2016
Divorce final 30 August 2019

Survival Instructions for Newbies
Site Map
 
A "friend" will not "stand by you" no matter what you do. That is NOT a friend. That is an enabler. That is an accomplice.
A REAL friend will sit you down and tell you to your face to stop being a firetrucking idiot before you ruin your life and the lives of those around you.

  • *
  • Mentor
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 4613
  • Gender: Male
  • Back to being #1 for my daughters!!!!
The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#45: June 02, 2021, 05:49:50 AM
Hello,

I have not posted much recently but I have been reading. First of all, wow, what a story. In responding to Bomb Drop,  you remained calm, cool, and collected, I was a complete mess. I lost so much weight and looked so frail that my staff thought I was dying from some sort of cancer. It was awful. Thankfully, I found this forum and not the other as I needed someone to offer me a hand up as opposed to another shove back on the floor.

After a while, I visited some site on divorce and unlike your angry women, it was angry men.  A lot of testosterone and bitterness mixed that didn't appeal to me at all.

So, I have only remained as a member of the forum and after a long absence, returned and try to add my two cents from time to time-especially for our newbies.

Just like you, I have not seen my ex except for four times in the past seven years. I am remarried and in a new place and a new life. I've got just a few more years before I retire and hopefully, I can then enjoy a lot of time with my wife as we grow old together. It was good to read that your new relationship was able to confront her fears and anxiety with the return of your wife and that both of you through listening and amazing communication were able to come closer.

I also found fascinating how you scored your wife as a three on recovery and could still be objective and detached with her return. I find the same with Xyzcf and the return of her ex as well. In my situation, within the first three years, if my ex had shown the slightest indication of reconciliation, I would have been on it like a bear at a picnic. Part is my overly optimistic view that somehow she was out of the tunnel for good, and the other part being that I played a part in her return.   What do you think made you feel neither? I know you said you saw low grade depression, but there was something else-something that made you keep detached and unavailable to her as a spouse.

Well, I've got to go and get some other things done. I have appreciated your insight and advice as well. Keep posting and let us know how the next chapter unfolds.

Have an amazing day,

(((((Ready)))))

  • Logged
"Always look in the mirror and love what you see."

m
  • *
  • Subscriber, 12 Month
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 823
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#46: June 02, 2021, 06:18:56 AM
Treasur: thanks for the feedback. I will add a little below, I had a little bit of a fall down late in the evening. Yes Jo is a friend and she is very wise and has helped many many LBSes in their darkest time. She is great.

UM: as always spot on. I am now going to keep those dogs as my internal cheering section.

Ready: thank you for the kind words. But to be clear I was NOT doing well the first few weeks. Figuring out what was happening and reading about it, combined with work I had had to do in my past helped make is a little more tolerable. But like everyone else I went on the LBS diet, lost weight. I had many days and weeks of crying, pain and days of just sitting in a room with a blanket. Didn’t mean to make it sound easy at all! Its just that with prior experience and knowledge I started to detach and move on. It takes time, its a journey of a thousand steps started with one. I would fall into the trap of trying to “fix it” and would stop myself. And I had a great therapist to guide and reality check me. And friends. It really took 9 months until the “emergency” part subsidized. Once I fully internalized what was happening with her then the desire to get my old back was really balanced with the reality of the fact that my friend was gone. Ive always had a hard time with fooling myself, this has been an asset and a curse.

As for my little face plant late last night: it was triggered by something a friend from here said to me which was strangely and independently echoed by my GF. They both pointed in different ways and for different reasons to what I had said: that last time we had met she didn’t want to spend any time with me (when she was trying to get me to hang around). I didn’t really think of it as an attack on her, there was no energy when I said it. But it was a gentle “explanation” and correction to her offhand version of “why aren’t you just sticking around.” I have checked and rechecked and it was not from any resentment, anger or anything other than not going along with the “everything is normal.” But both people had a slightly different reaction. So this threw me deep into monkey braining, self doubt and questioning whether I was fooling myself. Oh boy we all know how much fun that can be.

I am better now, sleep and time is your friend.
  • Logged
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

A
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 3565
  • Gender: Female
The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#47: June 02, 2021, 07:12:07 AM
Detachment.  With decency and generosity.  Cool. 

What I most appreciate about your posts is that you do not conflate the improvements in her mental state and more contact — even coming stay in your house — with progress in your marital relationship. 

One often reads about this conflation of MLCer’s progress in personal healing or calming down of the crazy with progress in marital relationship.  No wonder there is a lot of MLCer watching going on.  Don’t I know all about that…. Unlike you, it took me quite a long time to wean myself off commingling the two.

I dare say that (staying away from conflating the two) is one of the important aspects of your detachment, not just on the surface but in your centre.  There are bound to be little wobbles (you are human!)  but, because of the steadying weight deep inside of you, you are able to recover quickly, in my humble observations.
  • Logged
« Last Edit: June 02, 2021, 07:25:51 AM by Acorn »
Feb 2015: BD. 
Dec 2017: Seriously reconnecting

H never left home.

  • *
  • Mentor
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 11396
  • Gender: Male
  • You can't please everyone. You are NOT a pizza!
The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#48: June 02, 2021, 07:42:35 AM
I also found fascinating how you scored your wife as a three on recovery and could still be objective and detached with her return. I find the same with Xyzcf and the return of her ex as well. In my situation, within the first three years, if my ex had shown the slightest indication of reconciliation, I would have been on it like a bear at a picnic. Part is my overly optimistic view that somehow she was out of the tunnel for good, and the other part being that I played a part in her return.   What do you think made you feel neither? I know you said you saw low grade depression, but there was something else-something that made you keep detached and unavailable to her as a spouse.
I find this fascinating myself.....

xW looks/acts a LOT like her old self but, since I have maintained close contact due to the kids, I know that NOTHING has changed in her life - she has done Zippity-Do-Da-NOTHING to deal with the FOO and the issues that caused her crisis initially so I have NO reason to stick my hand back on the stove and wait to be burned again...

I suppose, like Marvin, since this was my 2nd run around the Mulberry Bush, I had a bit of a head start on the recovery side... It still took a while and I too took part int eh LBS Diet... although it was actually good for me as I had packed on a few "Comfort Kilos" over the years...
  • Logged
Me - 58, xW - 50
Together 19 years - Married 17 at separation & 21 at D-Day
S - 14, D - 10
2 Dogs
BD#1 - August 2015
Atomic BD - 13 Dec 2015
House sold & separated - Mar 2016
Divorce final 30 August 2019

Survival Instructions for Newbies
Site Map
 
A "friend" will not "stand by you" no matter what you do. That is NOT a friend. That is an enabler. That is an accomplice.
A REAL friend will sit you down and tell you to your face to stop being a firetrucking idiot before you ruin your life and the lives of those around you.

m
  • *
  • Subscriber, 12 Month
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 823
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#49: June 02, 2021, 12:05:52 PM
Acorn: what a great observation. I hadn't thought of it in those terms but once again you nailed it on the head.

To answer a question by Ready and UM: for me it all goes to the understanding of the underlying events that we call "MLC." I was lucky in that I had a few touch and goes in the first six months. And being aware of MLC, having gotten a hold of my own trauma, and generally being as prepared as possible I was able to detach and observe what was going on with her. This was illuminating. It really let me see how little it had to do with me, and how much pain, disassociation, denial and escapism she was engaged in. And it that let me get a very firm grip on the reality of the situation and realize how there were only free floating fragments of the woman I knew in existence.

I believe once we can connect to the reality and move to acceptance, without being stuck in anger, falling into victimhood, and really turn the focus away from our MLCers only then we can see that there is no there "there." So what would I be wanting back? As painful and hard as it was I knew my relationship was over, the past was the past, and there was nothing to reclaim. It's a lot like grieving, once you accept the person is gone then you can move through the stages and move on.

Which brings me to a delicate topic, specially for people who are standing. As hard as it may be, as counter intuitive as it may be, I believe the ONLY chance (not getting into the odds here) of maybe one day building a new relationship (you can't have the old one, its gone gone gone) IS to accept that its over and MOVE ON. Now by move on I mean focus on yourself, stop caring what they do, protect yourself, and live your life. Obviously if you are standing there are areas where you simply have to turn off while you are standing. But the rest still applies. I fear sometimes "supporting" people who are standing falls into enabling, into fostering their dependence, and sometimes yes even cheerleading keeping the focus on the spouse. I see this in posts that start with "I am focusing on myself" then analyzing, dissecting, reading between the lines, and trying to read tea leaves. And the support promotes this idea. Or sometimes it from relative newbies who state how doing X or Y or Z is what will fix it. Or promoting the false narrative that it just takes patience, some "baking," "rest," and time and all will be well.

Only way to survive this is to go in with your eyes wide open.
  • Logged
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 1239
  • Gender: Female
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#50: June 02, 2021, 12:50:52 PM
Very interesting updates Marvin, thanks for sharing them with us. I have to say, I really admire your ability to see what's really going on without getting sucked in. You can simply be part of the picture and interact with her.. while also staying detached and observant.  If I was put to the same test, I don't think I would have your clarity.. Thankfully I don't think I will ever find myself in that situation..

I do agree with your view about what we, as LBSs, must do.. Accept, move on, live our lives.. It's not easy to do and at least from my experience, despite being able to have rebuilt my life pretty well after my H walked away, the grieving continues for a long time. The years of memories built together that you can't fondly remember with the person you experienced them with, the dream of growing old together with the person who you chose to be your H or W, the plans that were made for a future that will never happen... All things that we have to grieve.. Even if our new life is good, there is no getting away from the process we all have to go through to fully make peace with the fact that life as we knew it, will never come back. But none of this will happen if our channel is still stuck in MLC land. Truly letting go is the only way
  • Logged
H - 44 (40 @BD1)
M - 44 (40 @BD1)
Together 15 years, M 8 @separation
No kids
BD1 - 26th Aug 2017 (Not happy, life has no purpose)
BD2 - 22nd March 2018 (Marriage is over, we want different things, confessed EA with someone 12,000 kms away although "she means nothing")
H moved in with parents 11th May 2018 (I asked him to leave as couldn't handle the EA rubbed all over my face)
H moved abroad 29th Dec 2018, not sure if OW will join him or if they are still in contact.
Confirmation H and OW are together, presume PA  - 3rd June 2019
H gets engaged with OW (we are not divorced) - Oct 2019
H "finally" asks for divorce - Aug 2020
H marries OW - March 2021.. We are not divorced!!!

"One of the happiest moments in life is when you find the courage to let go of what you can’t change

  • *
  • Mentor
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 4371
  • Gender: Female
The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#51: June 02, 2021, 01:27:35 PM
You have an interesting situation, marvin, since you are still married. It makes me wonder,  what happens if she wants to stay in the house and not go back?  Could you both being in the same house even work for you?
  • Logged
When life gives you lemons, make SALSA!

  • *
  • Mentor
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 11618
  • Gender: Female
The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#52: June 02, 2021, 02:24:27 PM
Quote
Which brings me to a delicate topic, specially for people who are standing. As hard as it may be, as counter intuitive as it may be, I believe the ONLY chance (not getting into the odds here) of maybe one day building a new relationship (you can't have the old one, its gone gone gone) IS to accept that its over and MOVE ON. Now by move on I mean focus on yourself, stop caring what they do, protect yourself, and live your life. Obviously if you are standing there are areas where you simply have to turn off while you are standing. But the rest still applies. I fear sometimes "supporting" people who are standing falls into enabling, into fostering their dependence, and sometimes yes even cheerleading keeping the focus on the spouse. I see this in posts that start with "I am focusing on myself" then analyzing, dissecting, reading between the lines, and trying to read tea leaves. And the support promotes this idea. Or sometimes it from relative newbies who state how doing X or Y or Z is what will fix it.Or promoting the false narrative that it just takes patience, some "baking," "rest," and time and all will be well.
Only way to survive this is to go in with your eyes wide open.

My experience only as Acorn would say.

I am not sure that people who are not standing for their marriages really understand what it is like to be a stander. You can talk about, but you aren't living it.

Really, the only people who get it, and they are very few, are other standers.

It has been a long time since I read any poster doing what you are saying...that is keeping your eyes focused on the MLC and dissecting everything they are doing. This was true in the early days of Heros Spouse but I really do not see that now. There is support, especially for newbies of how traumatic this has been but there is much more suggestions to protect yourself financially, legally, emotionally, acknowledging that the LBSer may be suffering from PTSD etc.

Even in the early days, the phrase "that marriage is over" was used pretty regularly as we encouraged one another to build a life without their spouse in it.

Every situation is different as was every marriage. Each of us need other like minded people to share in our journey.

I cannot relate to the details of some posters as they talk incessantly about their new loves and how much better they are then the spouse who had a crisis and I question really if you have to talk about it so much, just how wonderful is it really? And their insistence that there are better mates for you...

The idea that you can still love your spouse and would still like your family to be reconciled, however that might look seems to be considered to somehow impede your development and growth.

I believe MLC exists. I have seen it in someone I knew intimately, I have seen it in the many stories here. It exists and knowing that allows me to have compassion and empathy for this person who I still love.

Can you give me an example recently where a stander was enabled by one of us on HS? Or an example where any LBS has suggested to keep the focus on their spouse?

Sorry, I disagree with what you have written.

Quote
Or sometimes it from relative newbies who state how doing X or Y or Z is what will fix it.

I have seen that on other sites but the opposite is true on HS. Over and over it is stated, you cannot fix this.

Quote
Or promoting the false narrative that it just takes patience, some "baking," "rest," and time and all will be well.

Once again marvin, can you post an example of this? Truly, I am not trying to be contrary but I have not seen things like that said for many many years.

And I reiterate..unless you are a stander, you cannot possibly know what it is like to walk in my shoes.
  • Logged
« Last Edit: June 02, 2021, 02:28:21 PM by xyzcf »
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

N

Nas

  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 2864
The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#53: June 02, 2021, 02:55:43 PM
I think the general statements we make, such as Marvin has made here, are good jumping off points for discussions. 
I don't think this question is entirely fair (asking to point to specific other LBS who may not wish to be pointed to as part of this discussion:

Can you give me an example recently where a stander was enabled by one of us on HS? Or an example where any LBS has suggested to keep the focus on their spouse?

And xyzcf, you seem to agree with me, given that you also referenced a general situation without pointing to a specific LBS:


I cannot relate to the details of some posters as they talk incessantly about their new loves and how much better they are then the spouse who had a crisis and I question really if you have to talk about it so much, just how wonderful is it really? And their insistence that there are better mates for you...


I just wanted to touch on that quickly - I don't think the intention was to specifically point to examples (I mean, honestly, who would want to be discussed in that manner?), but more to lead to a productive discussion about what is helpful or not to other LBS.  JMHO. 
  • Logged

m
  • *
  • Subscriber, 12 Month
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 823
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#54: June 02, 2021, 03:40:38 PM
I am not sure that people who are not standing for their marriages really understand what it is like to be a stander. You can talk about, but you aren't living it.

Really, the only people who get it, and they are very few, are other standers.

I respect what you are saying, but honestly this sentence is essentially shutting down any discussion or input. It says “you don’t get it, so anything you say is not relevant.” I respect that is your view, and I respectfully disagree. But there is nothing to add when the starting point is complete dismissal.

Quote
It has been a long time since I read any poster doing what you are saying...that is keeping your eyes focused on the MLC and dissecting everything they are doing. This was true in the early days of Heros Spouse but I really do not see that now. There is support, especially for newbies of how traumatic this has been but there is much more suggestions to protect yourself financially, legally, emotionally, acknowledging that the LBSer may be suffering from PTSD etc.

Even in the early days, the phrase "that marriage is over" was used pretty regularly as we encouraged one another to build a life without their spouse in it.

Every situation is different as was every marriage. Each of us need other like minded people to share in our journey.

Well I read posts daily that essentially repeat the words, but don’t walk the walk. They start with “I am focused on myself” then write about details of their spouse. I am not saying this is all or most, but some. But I agree no moderator or veteran here as been anything but amazingly spot on in helping everyone to focus on themselves.

Quote
Can you give me an example recently where a stander was enabled by one of us on HS? Or an example where any LBS has suggested to keep the focus on their spouse?

Once again marvin, can you post an example of this? Truly, I am not trying to be contrary but I have not seen things like that said for many many years.

I don’t think that is appropriate or helpful, I am happy to discuss privately if you’d like.

Quote
And I reiterate..unless you are a stander, you cannot possibly know what it is like to walk in my shoes.

Yup message received as they say.
  • Logged
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

m
  • *
  • Subscriber, 12 Month
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 823
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#55: June 02, 2021, 04:06:17 PM
You have an interesting situation, marvin, since you are still married. It makes me wonder,  what happens if she wants to stay in the house and not go back?  Could you both being in the same house even work for you?

Good questions. No it wouldn’t work me for many reasons. One as much as I stay detached being around her would eventually be draining. Detachment takes energy and effort, and I find it is ok to have contact in small bits. But not constantly. As such I truly admire LBSes with live in MLCers.

If she wants to stay and it is something that feels safe for her I will find a place to stay. I have been in the house pretty much all the time for 4 years (she has been here for a total of maybe 2 months), so even in fairness she is entitled to have access for a good while if she wants.
  • Logged
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

  • *
  • Mentor
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 11618
  • Gender: Female
The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#56: June 02, 2021, 04:20:21 PM
Hey, I have no desire to start a ruckus nor do I want to shut down the dialogue or discussion. I apologize if you think that is what I meant.


Quote
Well I read posts daily that essentially repeat the words, but don’t walk the walk. They start with “I am focused on myself” then write about details of their spouse. I am not saying this is all or most, but some. But I agree no moderator or veteran here as been anything but amazingly spot on in helping everyone to focus on themselves.

Ok, that clarifies things a bit. You are referring to the LBS themself talking this way. I suspect some of it comes from being new to MLC and unable to fathom what happened to your life. Plus there are so many "save your marriage books" and "courses you can take. I thought you were saying that other LBSers were encouraging or enabling standers by saying that if they "wait" long enough, the crisis will resolve and they should come back. That was typical of the way things were discussed several years ago.

I also agree that there is no need to quote from individuals and marvin if you get time, please send me a few examples or just the names of the posters and I shall have a look. I don't spend as much time on the site as I once did.

I will stick to one point I have, that is that standers also need support and I don't see that as much as I see the congratulations for the new relationships...perhaps that is my bias.

And now I must go as I have a gentleman friend arriving shortly for dinner...

Sorry if I ruffled any feathers.
  • Logged
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

m
  • *
  • Subscriber, 12 Month
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 823
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#57: June 02, 2021, 08:13:25 PM
I will stick to one point I have, that is that standers also need support and I don't see that as much as I see the congratulations for the new relationships...perhaps that is my bias.

And now I must go as I have a gentleman friend arriving shortly for dinner...

Sorry if I ruffled any feathers.

I guess I am confused, because I was in no way implying there should not be support for standers. In fact I have said here and other threads I deeply admire those who choose to stand, some with kids and at their own expense for the well being of their kids. In my opinion each person has to choose what works for them based on their beliefs and desires. There is no “one size fits all.”

But I do read a little bit of undertone in your post. Maybe i am wrong, but for those of us who start other relationships we chose to do that. It is not “against” standers, it is a choice for us. And is there a point in your opinion where standing becomes dysfunctional? Is there a time limit? What if there was a magic test that said that MLCers will never recover, is standing still something to do?

And no feathers were ruffled. In fact, to steal a great line from another person, my feathers are well starched!
  • Logged
« Last Edit: June 02, 2021, 08:16:56 PM by marvin4242 »
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

  • *
  • Mentor
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 11618
  • Gender: Female
The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#58: June 02, 2021, 08:56:17 PM
Quote
And is there a point in your opinion where standing becomes dysfunctional? Is there a time limit? What if there was a magic test that said that MLCers will never recover, is standing still something to do?

I don't see standing as dysfunctional at all. It is a deeply personal decision, for some people, and I would consider myself to be one of those people, it's roots stem from faith in God's plan for my life and obedience to God's laws.

So no, there in not a "time" limit and it doesn't depend upon the MLCer's return or not.

There are several "definitions" of standing, standing for yourself, standing until you regain your equilibrium, my personal definition is that marriage is indissolvable.

The philosophy of this goes beyond the scope of this site and as I said originally, I have found that only another stander really understands where I am coming from. The two that I can think of off hand are Mitzpah and Trusting.

So yes, when I read your question "is there a time where standing becomes dysfunctional" I cannot help but respond in a way that you say has an "undertone" for it seems that standing, especially in today's society, is seen as an abnormal action.

Glad that your feathers are well starched!
  • Logged
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 11403
  • Gender: Female
The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#59: June 02, 2021, 10:39:17 PM
I think that Standing is an ‘abnormal’ reaction....in the sense of being an uncommon and counter-intuitive response to the events that most of us experience. That doesn't make it wrong, but it does mean I think that the choice to stand probably requires accepting that it is an uncommon choice so a path less well-trodden maybe?

I also suspect that it is too simplistic to define it by whether folks move on with other relationships or not. There are quite a few of us who are not in new relationships but who would no longer define ourselves as Standing...but perhaps living in a way that looks like we are. And perhaps some in new relationships with a glimmer of Standing-ish that leaves a metaphorical door open for a spouse they loved but unsure if they will ever be seen again. Or some that consider a new marriage a ‘forced’ end to a Stand. Or some who live within the form of still being married if not the function who Stand as some kind of ‘home’ for a person they see as ‘ill’ in some way who they hope will recover even if the marriage will not. Some Stand bc of faith beliefs, some bc they believe a bit of the spouse they knew exists behind the chaos, some bc it’s the only way they see to hold a fractured family together in some kind of connection, some bc they see RCR as a guide who knows things they don’t, some bc they just don’t know what else to do right now.......and lots more reasons probably.....

As the saying goes, it’s complicated  :)

Which is why it’s probably helpful for HS to occasionally recircle round to a discussion about it, as I think happens. Helps people figure out what Standing means - or doesn’t - to them. And if their choice or the way they live that choice more accurately perhaps is healthy and constructive for them or not at a given point.

And I think it can hurt all of us, regardless of our choices, if we feel judged as ‘less than’ bc of them.

I have a sneaky suspicion that most LBS are too battered and too confused to really make a really ‘examined’ choice about Standing for maybe a couple of years. We come to HS probably bc it is a default one for a range of reasons. Like a hammer who only sees nails lol. And that is the time when it is often very hard to make wise healthy choices, isn’t it? When we are vulnerable to dysfunctional choices bc it is so hard to find our footing or work out what we are dealing with, or think we are dealing with. Bc we want so much to believe that there is a predictable map or a process or things we can do or tips or tricks or a POV to change the situation we find ourselves in. To have hope, to reduce our pain.

I also have a sneaky suspicion that there are factors that make Standing more or less sustainable if we choose to do it past that point. And some of those factors are not necessarily in our gift or control. And not all of those factors are about what we think or feel or believe about MLC or Standing or Life.....some of them are about resources or bandwidth....and some of them are perhaps about different ways to ‘do’ Standing as opposed to ‘be’ Standing? I wonder if it might even be useful to start a discussion topic on different ways that experienced folks have found to ‘do’ Standing in healthy non-dysfunctional ways (as opposed to whether or not one should be a Stander) bc I’d imagine that Standing is also something one learns how to do well through a bit of trial and error  :)
  • Logged
« Last Edit: June 02, 2021, 10:45:35 PM by Treasur »
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.
Healing and growing found here https://littleplotbythesea.wordpress.com

"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

m
  • *
  • Subscriber, 12 Month
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 823
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#60: June 03, 2021, 01:31:35 PM
Not to in any way put any halt on the definition of "standing" discussions (I think it is an important topic), but I wanted to post some observations and thoughts on what is going on.

So had dinner with W last night, hung around for a few hours. We just ate and talked. Nothing serious, light stuff. State of the world, Brexit, kind of conversation friends would have over food or drinks. Very relaxed, no strain, no pressure from either side. It is the kind of thing we always talked about before, we could just sit and talk without effort.

The interesting bits are observing how she exists almost in two parallel states. In one she talks about what the OM is doing, her other life (but not in very positive terms). In the other she took me around the house to discuss where to put up pictures, what did I think of this artwork here, did I like it etc. That would be a conversation from our "old" life. But there is no disconnect or incongruence to these questions for her. And also she had gotten ice cream just for me, a flavor I used to like and eat ten years ago. It took me a second to realize she said I got that for you. Its something I had not had for a while before BD1, so it was a real throwback in time.

So none of this is in any way a surprise. Just watching a version of fracture or conflict play out. She either didn't register or it did not matter what I had said the other day. So it had been a "no big deal" from her viewpoint.

And this is where I will keep putting a big disclaimer. To anyone who is reading this looking for clues: there are NONE. There are no tea leaves to be read. This is "normal" for "MLC." It doesn't make sense, it is incoherent, and it will shift at any time. I am NOT reading anything into anything. Rather watching her exist in this state, which somehow makes sense to her internally. But I am glad that for the moment she seems more at peace with herself.
  • Logged
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

  • *****
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 13292
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#61: June 03, 2021, 01:48:28 PM
I think RCR has called it covenant keepers,
I am not sure that a permanent stander is any different.

Standing - IMHO is great until you stop moving forward,
at that point you are either a covenant keeper or stuck.

How do you keep moving forward and continue to stand in the same place is basically my question?

Just my .02
  • Logged

  • *
  • Mentor
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 11618
  • Gender: Female
The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#62: June 03, 2021, 02:22:28 PM
I prefer not to label people with the term "Covenant Keeper" for that pertains to a pretty specific evangelical Christian organization that doesn't address MLC.

There are also members who are standers without a faith based reason for wanting to stay faithful to their marriage vows.

I dislike when other people place a "label" on me that doesn't apply. I have been called a "covenant keeper" on this site a couple of times and I do not relate to that at all.

I am not sure there is any stander on HS who would refer to themselves as a "covenant keeper". Again we are looking at vocabulary. It was once pretty clear what a Stander meant and then all kinds of other definitions were applied....I am standing for myself..that to me is quite an oxymoron. But that's just me.

But please do not label me as a "Covenant Keeper" Thank you.
  • Logged
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

m
  • *
  • Subscriber, 12 Month
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 823
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#63: June 06, 2021, 05:52:09 AM
Wanted to post a minor update. So far everything has been good. My W seems to be mostly much calmer, more consistently. At least whenever I interact with her. I have been over a few times for dinner and chats. Its always pretty superficial, relatively calm and pleasant. Same duality, she lightly engages me to pick things for the house, shows me new towels etc. But it seems she is settling in, at least temporarily, for herself. When I casually asked what are her plans after her second vaccine and end of quarantine she did mentioned she may travel out of town and stay with friends for a little while.

As for me it has been interesting. First and foremost this has been a good reality check on where my feelings are about her. It is a little strange to spend time with her and really just see her as a distant friend. Prior to this, even in the depths of the worse behaviour of MLC, she was still my best friend, my W, and the closest person in my life. Now she is firmly not only not that, but she is a few circles out in my world. So its a new experience. I do not find myself at all falling into old feeling, or even inadvertently trying to “analyze” or read between the lines. I live and go one with my life after a visit. The only tiny stumble was I fell into a 1/2 hour long well of sorrow where I felt like I had been abandoned, that I was like a romantic figure in a story betrayed and left heroically carrying on. Then suddenly I regained my footing, that the story is one of the many false narratives we are fed all our lives. When I held my own worth and value suddenly everything clarified again. I once again snapped back to the fact that she had thrown away a good thing, that for all my flaws I am a kind, caring and at times fun person to be around. That none of this had anything to do with me and everything to do with her own demons. I went from a momentarily pity party to genuinely smiling and being happy.

My GF has also really had a chance to confront her worst fears and realize that they were not true. And she is using this as a chance to grow. She works through whatever comes up in therapy that are about her own FOO issues. I think it is surprising to her that her greatest fear has in fact led to a strengthening of her and our relationship.

So I guess the short version (yup too late!) is that life really does go on. That things do get better. That by living our lives, taking the focus off them, working on ourselves something good can come out of the damage. I do believe this is what is required, standing or not, to heal and eventually thrive. No matter how much that seems impossible at time.
  • Logged
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

  • *
  • Mentor
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 11618
  • Gender: Female
The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#64: June 06, 2021, 06:18:40 AM
Thanks for the update. The "stumble" that you wrote about seems pretty normal to me. Regardless of what has happened, there are still feelings and always will be for this person.

Quote
I once again snapped back to the fact that she had thrown away a good thing, that for all my flaws I am a kind, caring and at times fun person to be around. That none of this had anything to do with me and everything to do with her own demons

I smiled when I read this. 100% true!
  • Logged
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

H
  • *
  • Trial Subscriber
  • Sr. Member
  • Posts: 295
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#65: June 06, 2021, 06:39:05 AM
So I guess the short version (yup too late!) is that life really does go on. That things do get better. That by living our lives, taking the focus off them, working on ourselves something good can come out of the damage. I do believe this is what is required, standing or not, to heal and eventually thrive. No matter how much that seems impossible at time.

Thank you Marvin for this summary.   Since BD almost a year ago, all I could do is focus on reconciling my marriage.   Although I am still standing through my W's MLC, I have hope that my life will get better and I will  heal no matter what the outcome of my marriage.  Your story and others' stories on this forum have been a big help to me.
  • Logged
W - 42
M - 46
Together 19 years, M 17
2 kids
BD - July 2020
W Left Home - January 2021
W Filed for D - May 2021

m
  • *
  • Subscriber, 12 Month
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 823
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#66: June 06, 2021, 07:04:54 AM
Since BD almost a year ago, all I could do is focus on reconciling my marriage.   Although I am still standing through my W's MLC, I have hope that my life will get better and I will  heal no matter what the outcome of my marriage.  Your story and others' stories on this forum have been a big help to me.

I do follow you thread. I just want to say you can keep the focus on reconciling, stand AND still put the focus on you, detach, move on in other aspects of your life. This will let you stabilize, heal, not take damage and honestly will improve the odds that if one day your wife does start to get better you can still be there, and not have lost your love and care for her. In fact you will find you have become an even stronger and healthier version of yourself if you two reconcile your marriage one day.
  • Logged
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 11403
  • Gender: Female
The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#67: June 06, 2021, 10:25:57 AM
Understandable blip, Marvin.
You are super but you are not superhuman  :)

And no matter how well we navigate this experience and heal from it, it is a sad thing isn’t it? And not what we wanted for ourselves or these folks who we once loved so much. Seems to me that is just as realistic as all the detachment in the world....l
  • Logged
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.
Healing and growing found here https://littleplotbythesea.wordpress.com

"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

m
  • *
  • Subscriber, 12 Month
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 823
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#68: June 08, 2021, 08:41:16 AM
You are super but you are not superhuman  :)

I am WAY closer to supper than I am to super, but thanks for the upgrade!

So the update is that apparently there is a new normal. On certain days I go over to help with something or have dinner, we just chat about stuff, life, catch up, nothing deep or important. She is continuing her light redecorating, towels, cushions. When I am there there is always one or two of my favorite foods available from the past (which was not unusual in the before-times). She is for the first time since BD interested in things going on around people we know or my life in a casual sense, where before it was all about her. But I don't mean that in a bad way, I think due to her inner turmoil and pain level she had no room for anything except just coping. So it makes sense with less of the turmoil and pain she has a little more room to look outside herself.

So if I had to guess (I don't, and I am NOT, this is an intellectual exercise) she is trying to slip back into her old life. It is in pattern. But it means NOTHING. I say this for others as much as for me. Even the behaviour that would be jumped at as "oh my god they are coming back" is meaningless in MLC. First because she is still not connected to reality, for herself and others. And has shown absolutely no recognition of the consequences of her decisions (again for her not for others). Second, and this is CRUCIAL, people in crises are UNSTABLE. What is true today doesn't mean it will be true tomorrow. We all are used to some degree of momentum and continuity of emotions if we are stable. Our feelings don't suddenly shift. People who suffer from certain neurochemical disorders (like bi-polar) are familiar with this horrible instability, of having to live with unregulated emotions and potentially rapid swings. The rest of us find it puzzling.

I just urge everyone to try to internalize that simple truth: don't interpret and read anything into behaviours. Don't assume things are getting better, because without fundamental stability and connection to reality it means absolutely NOTHING.
  • Logged
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

A
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 3565
  • Gender: Female
The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#69: June 08, 2021, 12:28:47 PM
Excellent post, Martin.  I would like to heartily endorse what you have posted.

Quote
don't interpret and read anything into behaviours

I hope you don’t mind if I rattle on about what I have experienced.

I think that, for me, one of the saddest and most damaging aspects of reading and interpreting anything into H’s changed behaviours was ‘seeing’ improvement in our marital relationship.  I was setting myself up for great expectations and disappointment…. In my experience, If MLCer has been interacting with LBS in a non-adversarial (even friendly!) manner, it doesn’t mean squat in terms of marriage, though it could prove to be pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-prerequisite for reconnection if that ever happens.  I’m afraid I didn’t grasp that earlier on, even though I was auditing myself continuously to see if I was being delusional or making assumptions. 

Quote
Don't assume things are getting better, because without fundamental stability and connection to reality it means absolutely NOTHING.

How right you are…  Consistent stability and a strong sense of reality over a long period of time (as opposed to occasionally popping up now and then) are important signs of MLCer finally walking on the road to put himself/herself together.

The thing is, it is not that uncommon to see that the definition of ‘stability’ and ‘reality’ line up remarkably similar to what LBS longs to see from MLCer— ditching AP, expressing remorse, offering sincere apologies, etc.  So if MLCer does not oblige, he is deemed to be ‘still running/in the fog/replay/crisis.’  I’m not sure this kind of LBS-centric way of defining another person’s state of being is fair or correct. 

Cheers!
  • Logged
« Last Edit: June 08, 2021, 12:36:54 PM by Acorn »
Feb 2015: BD. 
Dec 2017: Seriously reconnecting

H never left home.

E
  • ****
  • Sr. Member
  • Posts: 357
  • Gender: Female
The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#70: June 08, 2021, 01:23:44 PM
Hello Marvin

Popping out of the woodwork (I read here often (and am really enjoying your posts) but rarely post at the moment).

Quote
I think due to her inner turmoil and pain level she had no room for anything except just coping. So it makes sense with less of the turmoil and pain she has a little more room to look outside herself.

My H, pre-AtomicBD (the one where I finally caught on) said exactly that. He told me (in a tone of desperation, when I asked him why I knew all his hopes and dreams (boy was I off base there) and all about him, but he didn’t know mine, or seem to care) “You don’t understand. My head works differently than other peoples. There’s so much going on all the time, it takes so much effort to deal with my own stuff that I don’t have room left to deal with anyone else’s stuff”.

I so admire the strength you and others here show and wanted to (again) thank all those leading the way. Thank you for sharing your stories.
  • Logged
M: 50 (48 @ BD)
H: 53 (51 @ BD)
Married 20yrs, together 23yrs
D: 21 (19 @ BD)
D: 19 (17 @ BD)
'Extra D': 19 (17 @ BD)
BD (that I didn't recognise as such) Easter 2018
BD 9th Sep 2018
OW (45, now 47) - he met her in the pub a week before BD, told me about her a week after BD. Thinks 'their planets have collided' because 'their eyes met across the room' and they had an 'instant connection'. Lives with her. Is building a life with her. Jun 20: H plans to buy a block of land and build a house with her.

m
  • *
  • Subscriber, 12 Month
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 823
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#71: June 08, 2021, 01:35:13 PM
There’s so much going on all the time, it takes so much effort to deal with my own stuff that I don’t have room left to deal with anyone else’s stuff”.

Thanks for your post. This right here is GOLD. If only LBSes could truly internalize this, stop thinking they are "poking," "stirring the pot," and helping when they are actually causing internal earthquakes in someone who is already in deep and massive turmoil. Its not our responsibility to take care of them, nor to understand and fix. But isn't it basic human empathy to see a person in pain and NOT increase their pain just so we can deny the reality that our relationship is over? That we need to focus on ourselves and leave them the heck alone?

  • Logged
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

E
  • ****
  • Sr. Member
  • Posts: 357
  • Gender: Female
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#72: June 08, 2021, 01:53:34 PM
There’s so much going on all the time, it takes so much effort to deal with my own stuff that I don’t have room left to deal with anyone else’s stuff”.

Thanks for your post. This right here is GOLD. If only LBSes could truly internalize this, stop thinking they are "poking," "stirring the pot," and helping when they are actually causing internal earthquakes in someone who is already in deep and massive turmoil. Its not our responsibility to take care of them, nor to understand and fix. But isn't it basic human empathy to see a person in pain and NOT increase their pain just so we can deny the reality that our relationship is over? That we need to focus on ourselves and leave them the heck alone?

I do agree with you... but to be fair to LBS that haven’t got ‘there’ yet (I believe most do/will), it didn’t LOOK like that from the outside. My H (I guess I should use STBXH but really don’t want to as that reality is still distressing) was (is) so SO good at wearing masks that I think he was even fooling himself. He continues to fool everyone in his new world and his family. And even my, sorry our, children. And often he fools me as well. I have to remind myself of the things he has done that are ‘off’. Especially as he is one of the MLCers that, from the outside, looks like he’s trucking along ok (ie not TOO crazy). So it’s easy to not BELIEVE that there’s all this inner turmoil. Because they hide it so well. I therefore don’t blame LBS for not knowing/believing there is turmoil. ‘Cause hey, we might be wrong and they HAVE just wiped us and moved on. It’s so hard to know. All very hard to wrap your head around. All very distressing.
  • Logged
M: 50 (48 @ BD)
H: 53 (51 @ BD)
Married 20yrs, together 23yrs
D: 21 (19 @ BD)
D: 19 (17 @ BD)
'Extra D': 19 (17 @ BD)
BD (that I didn't recognise as such) Easter 2018
BD 9th Sep 2018
OW (45, now 47) - he met her in the pub a week before BD, told me about her a week after BD. Thinks 'their planets have collided' because 'their eyes met across the room' and they had an 'instant connection'. Lives with her. Is building a life with her. Jun 20: H plans to buy a block of land and build a house with her.

m
  • *
  • Subscriber, 12 Month
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 823
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#73: June 08, 2021, 02:04:22 PM
First sorry that you have to start getting used to STBXH, I remember how hard it was when I first started writing that. Its just another step on this road.

I agree with you, but I am more referring to LBSes who have had a chance to come here, read, listen to the vets. Some even give "lip service" about getting in, focusing on themselves etc. Those are the ones that I find frustrating. All of us get thrown in the early days (and months and sometimes years). Some never find sites like this and don't figure out what is going on. I am more pointing to ones who do.
  • Logged
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

E
  • ****
  • Sr. Member
  • Posts: 357
  • Gender: Female
The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#74: June 08, 2021, 02:23:11 PM
I think it takes longer for some than others. And some people, due to who they are, will just never be able to ‘get it’ emotionally even if they can intellectually.

I know I still swing daily (hourly even) from ‘he’s an immature a**hole that will never be able to work through this’ to ‘my poor H! I hope he can work through this’. I even feel like saying ‘still’ is not correct, because for me it feels like yesterday. Like I’m so early on in this that I couldn’t expect myself to be anywhere else but distressed and confused. And yet for some, at nearly 3 years from BD, they’ve moved much further in than I have. And to the outside worlds it was YEARS ago! And aren’t you over it yet?! Mileage definitely varies.
  • Logged
M: 50 (48 @ BD)
H: 53 (51 @ BD)
Married 20yrs, together 23yrs
D: 21 (19 @ BD)
D: 19 (17 @ BD)
'Extra D': 19 (17 @ BD)
BD (that I didn't recognise as such) Easter 2018
BD 9th Sep 2018
OW (45, now 47) - he met her in the pub a week before BD, told me about her a week after BD. Thinks 'their planets have collided' because 'their eyes met across the room' and they had an 'instant connection'. Lives with her. Is building a life with her. Jun 20: H plans to buy a block of land and build a house with her.

Z
  • **
  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 53
  • Gender: Female
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#75: June 08, 2021, 02:34:43 PM

I do agree with you... but to be fair to LBS that haven’t got ‘there’ yet (I believe most do/will), it didn’t LOOK like that from the outside. My H (I guess I should use STBXH but really don’t want to as that reality is still distressing) was (is) so SO good at wearing masks that I think he was even fooling himself. He continues to fool everyone in his new world and his family. And even my, sorry our, children. And often he fools me as well.

I witnessed the same in the XH, but it was so so hidden, I think I was the only to notice. 

After his sister was diagnosed with a terminal illness, and a few other family health issues, my XH became very immature and he sluffed off his feeling regarding his sister.  He would either say "It is what is it is" or "We weren't that close" (regarding his sister  :o).  I felt he was deeply avoiding the situation and thought he was cruising for a mental breakdown.  I never told him my concern, though I did mention he and his mother should meet with the Hospice bereavement counselor.  I just knew I couldn't fix this for him or make it ok.  He needed to start working through it himself.  The way he dealt just seemed so odd to me, but I reasoned it away that "everyone deals with lose differently".  When he starting wanting to hangout with OW...as a family friend with me too, I noticed the connection between them.  I again reasoned it away as "acting out" to help cover the reality of what he was going through.  It remember thinking it was like watching a train wreck, but I never though it was the start of the end of our relationship.  At BD he brought up bereavement counseling...he was livid that I had suggested it. He said I should have researched how to care for him and make it better  :o :o :o
I just knew it wouldn't help.  I knew I couldn't fix it...it was death and we all need to walk through that. There was nothing I could do but love him, listen, and support.
  • Logged

m
  • *
  • Subscriber, 12 Month
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 823
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#76: June 10, 2021, 06:59:07 AM
Wanted to post a quick update as now its been almost two weeks. My wife seems to be settling down at the house, at least for now. She continues her minor redecoration, towels, sheets, outside cushions. She has also taken to "deep cleaning" the house. She has completely rearrange what was her private work room. She has removed a lot of the drawings, painting and items from pre/post BD days and has arrange a much cleaner, lighter and calmer space. I have always known that the spaces in which we live really reflect a version of how we exist internally. And its always interesting to see it demonstrated so strongly.

We continue to have dinner every day or two, she keeps asking me to come and work from home and just "hang around." And she does keep reminding me on occasion that I can just stay at the house. I just smile and deflect and leave. I get the sense she is now trying to reconstruct a version of the past as an alternative to her post BD life. So she seems to be running away from the life she ran to. But she is started to share a bit more about how she is feeling, what she has "discovered," etc.

Right now it will seems she is planning on going to stay elsewhere near some friends for a couple of months in a few weeks. She also makes references to being around here next winter. She overall seems to be in a calmer range, but with short bursts of what seems like a lot of anxious energy. The one eyebrow raising detail I noticed yesterday: for no apparent reason she has put up a single picture of me in a trip we went on together a couple of years before BD on the wall in her room. Not sure why, its almost like a picture you would put up to "remember" someone who is not actually in the room. Which is quite accurate in a lot of ways.

I am writing all this more as an observational detail for journaling. I almost feel like I need to have the standard "investment" disclaimer statements you see on forms. None of this means anything, there is no master plan or process. The only thing that exists is a person struggling with inner pains and turmoil while being swept down river grasping at anything. I hope one day she manages to grasp a stable branch from which she can start the process of healing.
  • Logged
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

t
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 816
  • Gender: Female
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#77: June 10, 2021, 08:22:30 AM
Good morning marvin! I wonder, if you’re willing to share — when she is sharing about feelings or what she’s “discovered”, is any of that notably about affair? Asking because I’ve run h off nearly every time he’s tried to discuss that area of his life, and :/ I still second-guess whether it is right or reasonable for me to keep blocking the topic. Like it probably does need to be discussed in some way but I’m just not “strong” enough or in the right place to do that yet/still.

Good to see your update today and I’m grateful that you’re journaling here. It sounds like the stable branch she is reaching for might be, on some level, you; I hope it’s ok to say that.
  • Logged

m
  • *
  • Subscriber, 12 Month
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 823
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#78: June 10, 2021, 08:29:44 AM
Hi Terra, I was reading your update on your thread. Hang in there.

I will say she is right now "dancing around the edges." She is talking in vague terms about her childhood, how she copes, but she is completely acting like its a few years ago and nothing is going on. Except for tacitly acknowledging me going away on the weekends to spend time with my GF. But no she has not said anything at all about what has happened.

And I want to add this: you are in no way responsible to ever listen to your H talk about anything. You are not his mom, you are not his therapist, and at this point he is NOT your friend either. And FWIW whether you are "strong enough" to let him spew on you won't change anything that is going on. I know for a fact that even though I can sit there and listen to her say anything she wants NONE of it will change anything. It will just be more spewing. My experience and knowledge says the FIRST sign of her actually finding any footing is when she starts to understand its all about her. When she takes full responsibility for her actions. I don't mean about our relationship, but that what she is doing is not reducing her pain. One version of this that is shared by vets is to hear the very genuine and selfless "I am sorry" without expecting that sorry to actually fix or change anything.
  • Logged
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

A
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 3565
  • Gender: Female
The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#79: June 10, 2021, 11:27:57 AM
Whaaat?  She is redecorating?  Deep cleaning?  New towels, sheets, cushions, and even a picture of you in her study? 

All of that happening and you are not jumping up to declare T&G, or reconnection, or MLCer’s return?   Wise man, you, to conclude thus:

Quote
None of this means anything, there is no master plan or process. The only thing that exists is a person struggling with inner pains and turmoil while being swept down river grasping at anything. I hope one day she manages to grasp a stable branch from which she can start the process of healing.

This view lines up almost exactly with what I have seen in H, though it took me some time to get to ‘none of this means anything.’ 

I’d thought for a long time that the only thing that floated down the river were twigs!  I hope your W find a nice thick branch, preferably attached to a tree that’s firmly planted on the shore. 
  • Logged
« Last Edit: June 10, 2021, 11:32:28 AM by Acorn »
Feb 2015: BD. 
Dec 2017: Seriously reconnecting

H never left home.

C
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 726
  • Gender: Female
The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#80: June 10, 2021, 03:20:39 PM

Quote
None of this means anything, there is no master plan or process. The only thing that exists is a person struggling with inner pains and turmoil while being swept down river grasping at anything. I hope one day she manages to grasp a stable branch from which she can start the process of healing.

This view lines up almost exactly with what I have seen in H, though it took me some time to get to ‘none of this means anything.’ 


All of this is so wise. I am still at the point where logically I know this, but my heart, my lizard brain, or my instinct (take your pick) still hopes for meaning, still looks for a sign that she is trying to make her way back, every time there’s some suggestion of taking an interest in the various facets of what was our shared life. But Marvin, you absolutely hit the nail on the head. Until she can take ownership of her own choices, until she can recognize that she is not a vessel at sea, purely at the mercy of every fleeting emotion that crosses her path… until she realizes that she owns the consequences of her actions, and until she can communicate openly, let herself be vulnerable and also be trustworthy enough for someone to be vulnerable with her - none of it means anything.

I am happy that you are navigating this with as much strength, understanding, and kindness as you are.
  • Logged

m
  • *
  • Subscriber, 12 Month
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 823
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#81: June 11, 2021, 06:40:33 AM
Just as if to illustrate the point that people in MLC are fractured, that nothing means anything, that we should NEVER read tea leaves and look for signs or a process, this happened. I had to run home for a repair, my wife was up and wanted help with something technical. As I was working with her one of her two phones got a message and lit up (it was sitting right by my hand and buzzed the table). I looked down to see what was buzzing, and saw the wallpaper on her phone was a beautifully frame romantic picture of the OM lying down next to "their" dog with eyes closed.

It was a great reaffirmation of reality and reminder to remain firmly grounded. None of it means anything. Always appreciate good 2x4s, even from the randomness of the universe!

 :)
  • Logged
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

t
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 816
  • Gender: Female
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#82: June 11, 2021, 07:21:27 AM
Ah, *gross*.

Still, glad for your share of this small evidence that the Universe does its best to help protect us.
  • Logged

C
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 726
  • Gender: Female
The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#83: June 11, 2021, 08:01:00 AM
Yes, agree with Terra and you about the protection afforded by the randomness of the universe… and also about the *gross* of this particular 2 x 4. It does seem that your boundaries are pretty solidly defined, but reminders like this are helpful in those squishier moments we (at least some of us) have.
  • Logged

N

Nas

  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 2864
The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#84: June 11, 2021, 08:07:25 AM
Marvin, your realistic approach is so admirable.  You are living your life and honoring the long friendship you had with her by hoping she will find peace and happiness within herself, while also knowing nothing you do or say can affect her - just as nothing that happens with or around her affects you continuing on with living your own life for yourself.  That's a true success story, imo. 
  • Logged

  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 11403
  • Gender: Female
The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#85: June 11, 2021, 09:31:30 AM
Ah yes, those little God/universe reminders! So useful  :) Wonder what OM and the dog think is going on..... ???

Sounds as if your wife is kind of ‘trying on’ bits of her old life for size, Marvin.
Perhaps cynically, I suspect you are a kind of object to her. Like a towel or a picture  ::) something she wants to hang around with a bit, but not much thought or sense of you as a separate real human being. Which of course is not uncommon with these folks, not saying it to be mean. So your instinct to decline nicely and not get sucked into too much ‘hanging around’ is probably very wise.

Tbh it is all likely to be a test of the nature of your residual attachment to her isn’t it? You may not see her as your wife, but I suspect you do have some attachment to her as...idk...a friend? Something else? An obligation? Idk. If you find yourself needing to dole out any self-administered 2x4s, I suspect it will be bc of that....and events may push you to define what kind of attachment you have or not perhaps? If indeed she ends up hanging around in the house for months...or years even,,,,you may need to work out what this version of her is for you now. Jmo.
  • Logged
« Last Edit: June 11, 2021, 09:49:28 AM by Treasur »
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.
Healing and growing found here https://littleplotbythesea.wordpress.com

"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

m
  • *
  • Subscriber, 12 Month
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 823
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#86: June 11, 2021, 09:56:25 AM
Thanks everyone, and spot on correct Treasur. As I said at the start part of my purpose here is firm reality checks, and yours is a great one. I am watching most of what you are saying internally, but it is distant and not very active. Yes I am just another object/escape.

I have always lived by a very useful idea: don't make any decision until you have to. It usually means you are forcing things just to gain a sense of "comfort" or "control." I don't need to make any decisions about "long term" right now, but when the time comes I tend to make decisive and quick decisions.

Right now I am still in collecting information mode...
  • Logged
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

C
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 726
  • Gender: Female
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#87: June 11, 2021, 03:43:40 PM

I have always lived by a very useful idea: don't make any decision until you have to. It usually means you are forcing things just to gain a sense of "comfort" or "control." I don't need to make any decisions about "long term" right now, but when the time comes I tend to make decisive and quick decisions.


This has been an important lesson of my journey, and kudos to you for having figured it out somewhere earlier in your life than in MLC! I have always struggled with just letting things be uncertain or undefined, and earlier in the post-BD months, as much as I hoped for reconciliation, a part of me wanted to push for a decision just so I could get on with whatever came next. And what I realize is that it’s all transient… even a “final decision” is only final until circumstances change. We can’t know what’s going on in their minds, in the parts of their lives that don’t include us. All we can do is take ownership of our own lives and actions, and be authentic to ourselves.
  • Logged

m
  • *
  • Subscriber, 12 Month
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 823
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#88: June 11, 2021, 04:12:03 PM
This has been an important lesson of my journey, and kudos to you for having figured it out somewhere earlier in your life than in MLC! I have always struggled with just letting things be uncertain or undefined, and earlier in the post-BD months, as much as I hoped for reconciliation, a part of me wanted to push for a decision just so I could get on with whatever came next. And what I realize is that it’s all transient… even a “final decision” is only final until circumstances change. We can’t know what’s going on in their minds, in the parts of their lives that don’t include us. All we can do is take ownership of our own lives and actions, and be authentic to ourselves.

That is such a great thing to own. One other thing I’d like to add is that a therapist at one point helped me realize something. That I was confusing clarity with certainty. I think its something a lot of people do. But once I realized that I can have any combination of lacking clarity and/or lacking certainty, that they are NOT the same thing it helped a lot with not making decisions. For example I may have clarity about a situation (my wife is having an MLC), but no certainty (I have no idea how it will go). I may not have clarity about a situation (I don’t know what is going on in her life) but I have certainty (it is not a healthy positive thing). And obviously both or neither.

I find it helpful to figure out where I stand on both these axis for any decision. And to not make a decision when either is missing.
  • Logged
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

C
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 726
  • Gender: Female
The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#89: June 11, 2021, 08:07:57 PM
Very smart way to live your life, and something to which I am aspiring. As many commonalities as there are in the various stories of MLC here, there are substantial differences too, not just in the nuances of our experiences, but also in the way we respond to them and grow from them. So there’s always a lesson to be learned, no matter how similar or different the details.
  • Logged

  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 11403
  • Gender: Female
The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#90: June 12, 2021, 03:56:18 AM
I really like the observation about Clarity vs Certainty, Marvin.

Seems to me to be a very useful one for LBS in the first couple of years. I definitely remember a time when I had neither. And that is a bewildering way to live, isn’t it? Then I think I thought that if I could dig out some Clarity that would lead to more of a sense of Certainty....and that ‘quest’ (which tbh was almost compulsive looking back albeit a completely normal trauma response) kept me mentally hooked on the rollercoaster of my then h. And it never really delivered either Clarity or Certainty lol.

With hindsight, I think it would have been a useful mental frame...to ask myself what I was searching for by doing x or y...was it Clarity or Certainty? And was doing x or y going to achieve that? (And often of course the honest answer was No)

Again with hindsight, I don’t think I got either until I put the quest down and tried to accept the (long) list of things I just didn’t know. Strangely, that did start to produce a kind of Clarity...and then, with time, even some different pockets of Certainty around what I called the ‘No F**king Idea’ box in my head.

Thank you for sharing this.
  • Logged
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.
Healing and growing found here https://littleplotbythesea.wordpress.com

"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

J

Jo

  • *
  • Trial Subscriber
  • Newbie
  • Posts: 10
  • Gender: Female
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#91: June 13, 2021, 11:11:14 AM
Great update Marvin, I had to catch up a few days.

I agree with Treasur about "Sounds as if your wife is kind of ‘trying on’ bits of her old life for size, Marvin." And she's not just shopping for towels.

I believe that its telling that she's half way out the door already after only two weeks. And citing she may be leaving in a few to go see friends, or come back in winter.... etc., I believe that she is also searching for clarity and certainty with you. As I said after reading your post, she'll either be confused by your boundaries and strength, or get direction from it.  But she does ask if you're spending the weekends with GF. See, she does care and has already said you could stay at the house too. She did think things would be different (safe comfy) back home and that perhaps she could just slip back into her role before fracture, and hope that no one notices. That's the delusional thinking that has no consequences...that she cannot face now or maybe ever.

But it's just like a kid testing the limits of the strength of the boundary fence, and she's also searching for weaknesses... instead of offering any honest dialogue about what she's thinking and what her behaviors have caused. It's still about her needs and wants and nothing more. She didn't return to her marriage or home as she left it. And many standers (and I was one) take any sign of engagement as a sign that the mlcr is coming out of their fog and things will go back to the way they were. I've seen too many come back and try reconciliation, but they come back broken and fatigued; a job 10X harder because they are different than they were before fracture, and so are we.

Her attempts at nesting is also about her. She's trying to fill that hole in her soul and get that fix with stuff so that she feels better about being home to quiet the bear in her head, but still needs to run with a foot on the gas. Depending on her cycle, this could be a week, two weeks, or as long as nothing nudges her to bolt.  Nothing in her fractured mind has changed, nor has the ability to observe about what has changed in your life with 20/20 vision. She can only see things from her distorted fractured mind and child like thinking.

I believe that from a mlc coming "home" process, she's trying to see where you and she fits in. The towels, etc., but most telling, the photo of you in her bedroom.  I wondered if she has noticed that there are no photos of the two of you around the house. It may be too painful for her to look.  But she's hungry alright.

As I've shared, I would not be surprised if on one of those dinner evenings (the ones where she makes your favorites) there will be an attempt to try back on the intimacy you once shared too. Be prepared that she's probably going to make a move on you. Unpredictable clarity and ambiguous certainty, that's all a mlc mind is capable of. But neither ones lasts or works no matter what she sees.

You're doing an excellent job navigating through her re-entry. Excellent boundaries and direction.

  • Logged
« Last Edit: June 13, 2021, 11:15:08 AM by Jo »
Married 18 years, 3 sons
BD and served divorce papers on same day, 9 months after I had surgery for a brain tumor.
EA and PA while I was recovering from surgery
Deep FOO
Ex filed for phony bankruptcy 11 days after family court concluded.
Ten years of litigation to save my life's work stolen by ex.

m
  • *
  • Subscriber, 12 Month
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 823
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#92: June 13, 2021, 12:17:27 PM
Thanks Jo, but I have to make a few comments. First and foremost its a reminder to everyone and to me the very important truth that gets lost, standing or not. It ABSOLUTELY does not matter what a fractured person does, and trying to “analyze,” “understand,” and “predict” means that we are still deeply stuck in the MLC/LBS dance. And probably indicates we have not yet processed our own pain and trauma from the experience.

Let me be clear: to me it DOES NOT matter what she does or does not do. If she “makes a move” or not is irrelevant, unless I am a helpless child, I have no agency, or am still stuck, unaware, dreaming of unicorns and puppies. To accept the past is past is JUST that: gone. Done. Finished. Over.

And for clarity she isn’t out the door in two weeks, she was never “in the door.” And she had always planned to go from before she arrived, she had shared that with her sister. Now whether she actually does what she planned….

My own analysis, as I have said above, is that she is now running away from running away. Her “dream” is not so dreamy so she is now running to the next “dream.” Whatever that may be.

On another note I had an interesting thought about clarity vs certainty. I have seen this question raised by others (and myself) about whether what we thought we had before BD was real or not. And it occurred to me that I have no certainty about that. And many of us can not know, because we can not “read” what was going on in other people’s minds. But I do have clarity that it does not matter. Because there are only two possibilities: that is was very real and was discarded, which means it is over, or it was not real and the illusion broke, which means it never existed.

In both cases its the same thing: its over and done with. Acceptance is the only option. Moving on is the only path. Now that is clarity without certainty.
  • Logged
« Last Edit: June 13, 2021, 01:06:21 PM by marvin4242 »
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

N

Nas

  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 2864
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#93: June 13, 2021, 12:37:39 PM


On another note I had an interesting thought about clarity vs certainty. I have seen this question raised by others (and myself) about whether what we thought we had before BD was real or not. And it occurred to me that I have no certainty about that. And many of us can not know, because we can not “read” what was going on in other people’s minds. But I do have clarity that it does not matter. Because there are only two possibilities: that is was very real and was discarded, which means it is over, or it was not real and the illusion broke, which means it never existed.

In both cases its the same thing: its over and done with. Acceptance is the only option. Moving on is the only path. Now that is clarity without certainty.

Oh man, I typed a whole response to you the other day about clarity vs. certainty and lost it.  I first did a little dance reading this because it was like, YES! This is what I was trying to say in my lost post.  (Then I got a little sad realizing my lost thoughts are not returning to me but rather are disappearing forever or until someone else say something to jog my memory...another story altogether...)

Clarity about the reality of my marriage is important to me only so I never make the same mistakes again.
Clarity about who my former H was, is or will be...I don't actually need that.  I may want it, and in the beginning I was consumed by that desire to have clarity.  But I don't need it.  I can create my own closure.  And thinking about gaining clarity on something I can never give myself clarity on only keeps me stuck in a time warp where my former H owns a place in my present life (which is literally all I have) - he doesn't. 

As for certainty, I can be certain what my own beliefs and values, wants and needs, hopes and dreams are.  I can choose to trust another person or not.  I can always choose to honor myself by not ignoring what imo are red flags.  I don't believe there's any such thing as absolute certainty when it comes to knowing another person.  JMHO.  Sample of one (credit, Acorn)
  • Logged

  • *
  • Mentor
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 11396
  • Gender: Male
  • You can't please everyone. You are NOT a pizza!
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#94: June 13, 2021, 11:59:30 PM
First and foremost its a reminder to everyone and to me the very important truth that gets lost, standing or not. It ABSOLUTELY does not matter what a fractured person does, and trying to “analyze,” “understand,” and “predict” means that we are still deeply stuck in the MLC/LBS dance. And probably indicates we have not yet processed our own pain and trauma from the experience.
WORD!

Let me be clear: to me it DOES NOT matter what she does or does not do. If she “makes a move” or not is irrelevant, unless I am a helpless child, I have no agency, or am still stuck, unaware, dreaming of unicorns and puppies. To accept the past is past is JUST that: gone. Done. Finished. Over.
PREACH IT BROTHER!

On another note I had an interesting thought about clarity vs certainty. I have seen this question raised by others (and myself) about whether what we thought we had before BD was real or not. And it occurred to me that I have no certainty about that. And many of us can not know, because we can not “read” what was going on in other people’s minds. But I do have clarity that it does not matter. Because there are only two possibilities: that is was very real and was discarded, which means it is over, or it was not real and the illusion broke, which means it never existed.

In both cases its the same thing: its over and done with. Acceptance is the only option. Moving on is the only path. Now that is clarity without certainty.

This is some HARD-Core Gospel TRUTH....
  • Logged
Me - 58, xW - 50
Together 19 years - Married 17 at separation & 21 at D-Day
S - 14, D - 10
2 Dogs
BD#1 - August 2015
Atomic BD - 13 Dec 2015
House sold & separated - Mar 2016
Divorce final 30 August 2019

Survival Instructions for Newbies
Site Map
 
A "friend" will not "stand by you" no matter what you do. That is NOT a friend. That is an enabler. That is an accomplice.
A REAL friend will sit you down and tell you to your face to stop being a firetrucking idiot before you ruin your life and the lives of those around you.

m
  • *
  • Subscriber, 12 Month
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 823
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#95: June 14, 2021, 07:39:22 AM
I found this article today and I thought there was a lot of useful information for everyone here, so here is a random interruption no this sage:

‘It was so nasty. He laughed in my face’: How to love and trust again after a big romantic betrayal

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2021/jun/14/it-was-so-nasty-he-laughed-in-my-face-how-to-love-and-trust-again-after-a-big-romantic-betrayal
  • Logged
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

K
  • *
  • Trial Subscriber
  • Full Member
  • Posts: 142
  • Gender: Female
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#96: June 14, 2021, 08:01:06 AM
After 18 months, he signed up for a walking holiday in Europe
Would love to do that
  • Logged
Me - 51, xh - 52
Together 26 years - Married 24 at separation
D - 23, S - 20
No BD - gradually moved out into our vacation house starting 8.20

N

Nas

  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 2864
The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#97: June 14, 2021, 08:34:32 AM
I certainly don't want to derail your thread, but I wish that article had used different/better examples. 
The main example woven throughout the article was not really relatable for me.  Betrayal is always awful but when the reason for the betrayal takes into account centuries of homophobia and a societal pressure to conform to a straight male archetype, I place it in a different category than what most of us experience - in the example given, the woman was betrayed by a man who really couldn't be his true self in a society that would shame and cast him out for it.  In most of our cases, we were betrayed because our spouses decided we were no longer enough and someone else was.  Both painful, but different, imo. 

I know a woman whose husband came out as gay when they were near retirement with 3 grown sons.  It was devastating for her in a way we can all somewhat imagine.  But her solution to that was not to stay married to him and have both be celibate for the rest of their lives.  She let him go be who truly was but didn't feel he could be given the generation he grew up in.  JMHO but, while I understand the desire to stay with him and keep the long friendship that they had during their marriage, ending the marriage and moving on with her life while he honors his true self as a gay man is more indicative of her love for him than spending the rest of their lives in a sexless marriage. 
Friendship is really, really important to me, but intimacy in all its forms is what sets a marriage/partnership apart.  Physical intimacy may be just one part of that, but it is indeed a part. 
My husband wanted to be with another woman, so I let him go.  It was really the only choice I had.  I would imagine if he wanted to be with another man, my choice would be the same. 

Anyway, just to say that I couldn't really relate to the specific examples as much.  I know the article was more about how to move past the betrayal and not so much on the examples of betrayal themselves, but, again, I wish they had highlighted different scenarios than the ones they used. 
  • Logged

  • ****
  • Sr. Member
  • Posts: 379
  • Gender: Male
The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#98: June 14, 2021, 09:25:54 AM
    Intereasting article,

I agree with NAS though I think my take on that would be different. If my wife came out as gay I would have taken that much better than an OM. I think the personal YOU aren't good enough thought that kept running through my head over and over again was the largest part of my experienced trauma. Something I think all LBS's struggle with early on.   Coming out would have been definitive clarity that it was all about her.
  • Logged
Together 12 yrs Married 5
5 kids 3- Step (21) (20) (18) Two together ( 8 ) (9)
BD1 March 2018 - I wish I could give you more of what you need
BD2 Aug 2018 - I want a divorce sent by text ILWYBNILWY

O/M Discovered Nov-18

m
  • *
  • Subscriber, 12 Month
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 823
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#99: June 14, 2021, 09:54:52 AM
Nas/Father all good points. I wasn’t equate it, but the betrayal, the shock, the inability to accept and hit to self esteem are the parts I thought were overlapping with the MLC experience. Maybe its only 30% of the total “fun” we got to have but still relevant.
  • Logged
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

  • *
  • Mentor
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 2963
  • Gender: Female
  • Time is a Gift! 🎁
The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#100: June 14, 2021, 03:41:34 PM
Quote
Margalit says the defining feature of betrayal is not the suffering inflicted on its victims, nor the damage it does to their sense of trust. “It is the injury to the relationship that makes it betrayal,” he says: the ungluing of the “thick relation” that binds partner to partner. It empties the relationship of all its meaning. And when it comes to repairing that? “That’s a really tricky one,” he says.

The above jumped out at me from the article.

I also could relate to the trust issues with myself when I was being gaslit and brushed it off and believed him.  My brothers used to call me gullible and I thought that ended after childhood, but gullible and naive apparently are appropriate adjectives for me.
  • Logged
Survival Instructions for Newbies

The Apology Every LBS Deserves

My Journey

"Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass - it's about learning to dance in the rain."

"Don't become a container for bitterness.  It's a toxin that destroys what it's carried in."

  • *
  • Mentor
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 11396
  • Gender: Male
  • You can't please everyone. You are NOT a pizza!
The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#101: June 15, 2021, 12:24:56 AM
I also could relate to the trust issues with myself when I was being gaslit and brushed it off and believed him.  My brothers used to call me gullible and I thought that ended after childhood, but gullible and naive apparently are appropriate adjectives for me.

Join the crowd.... I always believe everyone is good until proven otherwise... and sometimes it takes WAY too much proof...
  • Logged
Me - 58, xW - 50
Together 19 years - Married 17 at separation & 21 at D-Day
S - 14, D - 10
2 Dogs
BD#1 - August 2015
Atomic BD - 13 Dec 2015
House sold & separated - Mar 2016
Divorce final 30 August 2019

Survival Instructions for Newbies
Site Map
 
A "friend" will not "stand by you" no matter what you do. That is NOT a friend. That is an enabler. That is an accomplice.
A REAL friend will sit you down and tell you to your face to stop being a firetrucking idiot before you ruin your life and the lives of those around you.

t
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 816
  • Gender: Female
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#102: June 16, 2021, 08:04:09 AM
“It empties the relationship of all of its meaning.”

Yep.

That’s what it did to ours. And it isn’t even that I choose not to trust? It’s that I *can’t* trust. It’s not that he destroyed the trust or my willingness to trust him. It’s that my ability to trust adult relational intimacy just instantaneously *evaporated*, or *vaporized*.

I have not been able to put the fragments back together, because what happened shattered everything into pieces so small and so many that putting any of it together again is just not even possible. Maybe there is potential at some point to fashion trust again the way sand is fired into new whole glass? But that seems like it has to wait for someday when conditions are all exactly just right, which is definitely not right now or for me anytime soon.

I live by the meaning of anything, of my loves and of myself. So it’s been frightening each time I understand that the love made and felt and treasured with this one beloved person was somehow not meaningful “enough”, but that it no longer is at all and apparently possibly even wasn’t to begin with.
  • Logged

m
  • *
  • Subscriber, 12 Month
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 823
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#103: June 16, 2021, 10:07:12 AM
I live by the meaning of anything, of my loves and of myself. So it’s been frightening each time I understand that the love made and felt and treasured with this one beloved person was somehow not meaningful “enough”, but that it no longer is at all and apparently possibly even wasn’t to begin with.

First I completely get this, I think a lot of us do. It goes a little to something I wrote earlier: either it was never there, or it was lost. It is a loss no matter which version is true. And maybe the fear is part of the loss and trauma. I am not sure this is "comforting" but the truth is nothing is permanent, no matter how much we want it to be. If I lost my marriage to my Ws MLC how different is it if she had been in a car accident? Only difference is there is a physical manifestation running around.

Maybe that is why its so important to not interact with them, nor be engaged in any way. The human psyche just can not deal with a "death" with a body walking around. Its hard enough even when there isn't one, we tend to remain in the memories in the past until we grieve and process. There is no "moving on," I think that is a very bad phrasing. We don't move on, we process the experience, we integrate it and then live with this new version of ourselves.

If we do not then we are stuck straddling two places, stuck in a past while the present is no longer aligned. Trauma will absolutely do this to us, so as so many here keep saying trauma therapy may be integral to start to process.

In this same vein I am constantly watching myself as I interact with a version of my W. I can almost see the duality of how I see her, this new version who is an acquaintance, yet the "ghost" is hovering nearby. I really believe acceptance is a very critical part of the process of healing.
  • Logged
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

C
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 726
  • Gender: Female
The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#104: June 16, 2021, 10:28:47 AM
I just lost a pretty long post on this - betrayal; loss of trust; figuring out how to trust again, whether or not you can, and whether or not you even want to… that for me is what lingers in my day to day interactions. I have a pretty good sense of who I am, and that has been the overwhelmingly positive aspect of this journey. I know what moves me, what drives me, what calms me, and what evokes joy. I know what my values are, what I want to bring to the people in my life and to the world around me. But I still struggle with what I want to allow other people to bring into my life. How vulnerable can I allow myself to be with a particular person? How vulnerable can I allow myself be to anyone at all? How vulnerable do I even want to let myself be? I think that for me, that was always a bit of a struggle anyway… even though I trusted my W to be my person, to always be in my corner - I’m not sure I ever trusted her enough to let her know she was that to me. She knew that I was that person for her, and I think she probably still knows it and sees me that way. But now that she’s broken that trust, it feels like she has proven that I was right to struggle and to doubt.

The old relationship has been emptied of its meaning. The facts of it still exist, the memories. But the ties that allow for real trust and vulnerability, those have to be rebuilt from scratch, and the person you are building them with (if you reconnect) is someone who now has a history of breaking those ties unilaterally. So beyond just trusting, you have to trust that they have genuinely changed from the person who broke the previous trust. And that is the minefield of reconnection, even if it never leads to reconciliation.
  • Logged

  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 11403
  • Gender: Female
The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#105: June 16, 2021, 11:22:16 AM
Quote
goes a little to something I wrote earlier: either it was never there, or it was lost. It is a loss no matter which version is true. And maybe the fear is part of the loss and trauma.

Golly, this is one of those simple and rather complicated things, isn’t it?
A mental tally I suspect we all work through individually over time. And we may reach different conclusions, of course.

The simple bit is that it’s a loss either way, I agree.
The complicated bit perhaps is how the nature of the loss shapes our POV and creates new fears perhaps after the loss bc of that.
  • Logged
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.
Healing and growing found here https://littleplotbythesea.wordpress.com

"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

m
  • *
  • Subscriber, 12 Month
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 823
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#106: June 16, 2021, 01:04:15 PM
Great points by all, it always goes back to the fact that we all react in our way, we all come into the process with our past, with our own FOO issues, our own set of coping skills (or lack of) and it mixes together to create an incredibly difficult and unpleasant experience...

Todays fun update from the pages of "do not read any tea leaves, or you may get scalded by hot tea."

As W and I were running an errand today she casually mentioned that her winter plans of staying in the US are firmly tied to bringing OM and "their" dog over here. I have no idea if she meant to say it, if it was a test as she occasionally refers to my "special friend," whether it was a slip up, or a probe.

And as I keep finishing with: it does not matter what it was. Then she asked me to come hang out tomorrow because she won't see me for a while as I am leaving town for a while. I prefer watching the mad hatters tea party ride from afar...
  • Logged
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 11403
  • Gender: Female
The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#107: June 16, 2021, 01:21:14 PM
Quote
I prefer watching the mad hatters tea party ride from afar...
Or perhaps not watching at all, Marvin? Less ‘hanging out’ perhaps?
Hmmm....as we know MLC ‘plans’ are not like normal plans  ::)....but is she ‘planning’ to move OM and dog in to your/her house or find someplace else to live? Are there practical lines in the sand for you about this kind of stuff?
  • Logged
« Last Edit: June 16, 2021, 01:22:30 PM by Treasur »
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.
Healing and growing found here https://littleplotbythesea.wordpress.com

"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

m
  • *
  • Subscriber, 12 Month
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 823
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#108: June 16, 2021, 01:33:05 PM
Quote
I prefer watching the mad hatters tea party ride from afar...
Or perhaps not watching at all, Marvin? Less ‘hanging out’ perhaps?
Hmmm....as we know MLC ‘plans’ are not like normal plans  ::)....but is she ‘planning’ to move OM and dog in to your/her house or find someplace else to live? Are there practical lines in the sand for you about this kind of stuff?

Great question, it was "my bad" I was not clear, no not to "our" house. She has made arrangement for a place over the 3 months in winter where she used to go, completely different state, far far away. Yes there are very hard lines, she is welcome to stay and use what is legally her house, but no she is not welcome to move in the OM or her dog etc.

I have many many hard firm lines and they have been in place for a long time now. In fact one of those lines is what pushed her to choose her "soul mate" three years ago. I firmly believe that kindness and compassion coexist perfectly with firm boundaries, self care and putting ones own needs and well being first.

And to reiterate I am not "watching" in that sense of the word. Think of it this way, where I am there is no action nor reaction. To turn away implies there is still an emotional tug, or pull, or engagement (positive or negative). When there is neither we are not pulled to nor pushed away from something. Its just "meh."
  • Logged
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

  • *
  • Mentor
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 11618
  • Gender: Female
The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#109: June 16, 2021, 03:51:28 PM
Quote
I firmly believe that kindness and compassion coexist perfectly with firm boundaries, self care and putting ones own needs and well being first.

And to reiterate I am not "watching" in that sense of the word. Think of it this way, where I am there is no action nor reaction. To turn away implies there is still an emotional tug, or pull, or engagement (positive or negative). When there is neither we are not pulled to nor pushed away from something. Its just "meh."

What I wanted to be able to "achieve" was to be comfortable in his presence knowing that he has another life and doesn't want me in that life. I don't want to shut him out of my life for to me that feels like a "punishment"...instead, I prefer what I have found to be acceptable in my case. That is different for each person.

Sharing a life together for such a long time, even if that life has ended still has significance for me. Peace is being able to do this for me. That he doesn't shatter me like he once did.

It means acceptance of what is, acceptance of what has happened and acceptance of who we both have become.
  • Logged
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

  • *
  • Mentor
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 4371
  • Gender: Female
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#110: June 16, 2021, 05:02:58 PM
First I completely get this, I think a lot of us do. It goes a little to something I wrote earlier: either it was never there, or it was lost. It is a loss no matter which version is true. And maybe the fear is part of the loss and trauma. I am not sure this is "comforting" but the truth is nothing is permanent, no matter how much we want it to be. If I lost my marriage to my Ws MLC how different is it if she had been in a car accident? Only difference is there is a physical manifestation running around.

BBM: The problem with this analogy is that yes, the marriage is lost either way, but if you lost your W to a car accident, then you did not lose the trust you had for her, or your belief that your marriage was good or get betrayed or verbally abused or the myriad of other things that happen when your spouse doesn't just cease to exist, but leaves a trail of wanton destruction, purposely trying to hurt (ostensibly so that you will want them to leave and they won't then feel bad about leaving). Maybe your W leaving wasn't "as bad" (relative term) as some, but the sorrow of losing someone through no fault of your own or their own is far different that the trauma of someone not only trying to tell you that your reality is wrong (Why no, we were never happy. I have no idea why I spent 20 years with you....), but that you never saw it coming. When someone dies in a car accident, you didn't see it coming, but  your reality is certainly not wrong and your spouse is dead. And (normally) no one is trying to tell you to just "Get over it already" two months in or saying that it must have been your fault somehow.

I had a conversation with a friend whose father died unexpectedly in an explosion. My father died that same year over the course of the year with cancer, and surgeries and infections. We were discussing which was worse, not knowing it was coming and it happening fast, or living with it for a long time with no hope. We came to the conclusion they both sucked but for differing reasons. Both of our fathers were gone, neither of us thought the other had it better or worse, but it wasn't the same loss and wouldn't have been if the roles had been reversed, either.

My point, I suppose, is that while gone is gone, how someone gets gone matters.

  • Logged
When life gives you lemons, make SALSA!

  • *
  • Mentor
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 11618
  • Gender: Female
The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#111: June 16, 2021, 05:23:34 PM
Thanks Offroad. I agree totally with what you are saying.

This loss is not the same as a physical death. Very different things.
  • Logged
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

N

Nas

  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 2864
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#112: June 16, 2021, 07:36:28 PM
First I completely get this, I think a lot of us do. It goes a little to something I wrote earlier: either it was never there, or it was lost. It is a loss no matter which version is true. And maybe the fear is part of the loss and trauma. I am not sure this is "comforting" but the truth is nothing is permanent, no matter how much we want it to be. If I lost my marriage to my Ws MLC how different is it if she had been in a car accident? Only difference is there is a physical manifestation running around.

BBM: The problem with this analogy is that yes, the marriage is lost either way, but if you lost your W to a car accident, then you did not lose the trust you had for her, or your belief that your marriage was good

I have the dubious distinction of having lost a serious boyfriend in a motorcycle accident and then having lost my husband to whatever *crisis happened to him.
I took this analogy to mean that in both cases I woke up one morning feeling safe and secure in the fact that I was in a loving committed relationship and at the end of that day - on the day that my boyfriend died and on the day that my husband left - I no longer had the “safety and security” I had when I woke up that morning. In both cases, it was gone in the blink of an eye. I didn’t see it coming in either case.
The circumstances and financial destruction from my marriage ending was obviously different, but in both cases the relationships, and my sense of belonging, safety and security, were completely gone in the blink of an eye.
  • Logged

  • *
  • Mentor
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 4371
  • Gender: Female
The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#113: June 16, 2021, 08:07:46 PM
Which is a great example of how each loss is different for each individual. None of my romantic  relationships were about my belonging, safety and security, so that wouldn't be a blip on my particular radar. But for some, like it appears to be for you nas, gone IS gone. The analogy then might be fair for you, but not for someone (like me). How someone leaves my planetary system affects me far more than that they are gone from my planetary system. I acknowledge that had my father died when I was a child, that might have affected my belonging, safety and security,

I also acknowledge my life experience has been filled with death, people coming and going, moving when I didn't want to and people moving when I didn't want them too. It's definitely how they leave that affects me do whatever degree.
  • Logged
« Last Edit: June 16, 2021, 08:08:53 PM by OffRoad »
When life gives you lemons, make SALSA!

m
  • *
  • Subscriber, 12 Month
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 823
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#114: June 19, 2021, 05:13:19 AM
I appreciate the various experiences and views on the model of “death.” My comment and personal take is closest to the one Nas expressed (and btw I am sorry for you having had both versions of that experience). For me the “death” model works well when I try to talk to or help people who are suddenly dealing with a spouse who seems to change from something like this.

I wanted to post an update. My W has continued to be friendly, asking me to work at home, essentially to “hang around.” I personally believe there are two reasons for this (and both have to do with her needs). One is for whatever reason she seems to want to “recreate” a version of her old life, even if its for a little while. It manifest in her redecorating, reclaiming parts of the house, planning on planting in the garden, etc. She also wants a version of me around so its more “normal.” And also because it is useful to her as she is working on something that is in my field of expertise and she can have “on demand” help. Yup you all can see the obvious pattern: its all about her needs.

But it gets better. Couple of nights ago she wanted to go to dinner at a place we used to go. And she decided it was time to tell me things that are wrong with me and to “help” me become a better person. Yup. The details are not important, more that it was another mini-version of cutting me down subtly, being very sure she knows what is “best” and that whatever I may say is simply because I am just in denial. It wasn’t a surprise and honestly it wasn’t even hurtful, just a little sad. It means she is not anywhere near where she can take responsibility for herself and maybe find a path to joy. I did not engage nor react, and she seemed slightly shocked that I didn’t engage. And when I said “appreciate the feedback, I am pretty comfortable about who I am at this point” she seemed taken aback. I am guessing I was either supposed to thank her, appreciate the “help” or maybe even start arguing. Not sure which.

There is another little fun discordant behaviour I want to share. A couple of days ago she asked me to come with her to find a car as she will need one to drive around while she is here for however long. As she was looking at cars she mentioned how she needs a big enough car to carry around her and the OMs gear and “their” dog. Yup. I have no idea whether it was a slip, a probe, or reaction to me not engaging and spending time away from her with my GF.

I am heading out of town for a few weeks and most likely will not see her for a long while (if ever, who knows). So this little interaction is coming to an end. She has said a couple of times she wished I wasn’t leaving so soon, how it is nice to “hang out.” For me it has been a good reaffirmation of reality. I am glad she seems to be less in pain and less anxious. But she is nowhere near “ok.” The solid test would be if she was firmly acknowledging things for herself, living in a congruent reality (for example just act like we are a couple about to divorce, be civil, be friendly but don’t pretend nothing is going on).

And finally even this brief partial interaction, without wanting anything and remaining detached, has still not been easy. From this I am going to say what I said before: I do not know how those of you will live in MLCers do it. Same goes to the brave ones who are attempting reconnection or reconciliation. I will go out on a limb and say it HAS to be near impossible to have a live in MLCer without taking some damage and expending huge energy to stay detached. I understand some have no choice, but if there is a choice my advice to any newbie is this: remove yourself, emotionally, financially and if at all possible physically. For all the tough days, for all the times I “wondered” or couldn’t shut my mind off thinking about her in the early days I am VERY sure it still was ordered of magnitude easier than if she had been around. And it helped me move along quicker towards separating.

Edit: This song has been playing in my head this past couple of weeks…. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytqaFefr-5I
  • Logged
« Last Edit: June 19, 2021, 05:40:07 AM by marvin4242 »
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

  • *
  • Mentor
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 11618
  • Gender: Female
The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#115: June 19, 2021, 06:06:14 AM
Thanks for sharing. It is always helps to add to the body of knowledge that we have concerning MLC behavior.

Quote
I understand some have no choice, but if there is a choice my advice to any newbie is this: remove yourself, emotionally, financially and if at all possible physically. For all the tough days, for all the times I “wondered” or couldn’t shut my mind off thinking about her in the early days I am VERY sure it still was ordered of magnitude easier than if she had been around. And it helped me move along quicker towards separating.

One piece of advice that was given to me early on was when I saw him, to treat him like a long lost relative that I didn't know very well. That helped to frame things for me and made it much easier in the earlier days when there was contact between us.

I would NEVER agree to the advice that you are proposing for a newbie. As you know, every case is different. If you are totally sure that you are done and never want this person in your life again, perhaps eliminating them completely might lessen the pain. But our thoughts and memories still exist, and whether they are in your life physically or not, they will continue to be so in our minds and our hearts.

As you said, there are many reasons why contact remains necessary or desirable. There is also a path to healing that includes facing the pain, allowing it to "be" and accepting the way life is now. When I could be in his presence without it shattering me or breaking me, I knew that I would be ok.

For reconciliation to occur, and some on HS would like that, I do believe that contact is an important component.

On this site, Hero's Spouse, when people come here to find out about MLC and how to survive, I would NEVER recommend to a newbie to cut all contact with their spouse. Find another partner and close the door to the one who is in crisis.....that is how I read your post. I can tell newbies that they will heal, the body and mind are amazingly resilient. Give them some thoughts about what works to get through the grief and respect each person for their decisions regarding their spouse and their families.
  • Logged
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

m
  • *
  • Subscriber, 12 Month
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 823
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#116: June 19, 2021, 06:11:55 AM
I have to respectfully disagree. I did not say people need to “move on” or find a new partner. In fact I would argue that SPECIALLY for people who are committed to standing for the long term then NEED to reduce or eliminate as much contact as possible UNTIL they have managed to create very firm boundaries. And they have had a chance to work through all the triggers caused by MLC BD BEFORE even attempting to reengage. The reason is very simple: the more damage you take early on the LESS the chance that you can stick around for the long haul without getting to a point of personal damage, or simply start to no longer love your spouse.

It may be counter intuitive but being kind, gentle, standing AND eliminating most contacts from a toxicity disordered person are not mutually exclusive. I know way too many LBSes, whether they are standing or not, who still bear the pain and damage of MLC. And way too many of them who think they have build healthy boundaries are in pain and still struggling in subtle and not so subtle ways.

Part of this is accepting that what we do has almost ZERO effect on the process of a fractured mind, i think we like to pretend we have agency and control where we have none. This is NOT the same as being cruel, mean, zingers, truth darts or controlling our MLCers.

I truly believe it is possible to separate yourself, remain kind, preserve your love for the person, live your life without entangling yourself with someone else (that part is a choice). I would call that a healthy stand. Put yourself FIRST.
  • Logged
« Last Edit: June 19, 2021, 06:13:20 AM by marvin4242 »
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

9
  • *
  • MLCer Type: Clinging Boomerang
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 742
  • Gender: Female
The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#117: June 19, 2021, 06:34:18 AM
Quote
  From this I am going to say what I said before: I do not know how those of you will live in MLCers do it. Same goes to the brave ones who are attempting reconnection or reconciliation. I will go out on a limb and say it HAS to be near impossible to have a live in MLCer without taking some damage and expending huge energy to stay detached.

Thank you for this observation/acknowledgment Marvin.  It’s been a huge struggle for me the last few days.  My detachment energy has truly been depleted.  A front row seat to MLC isn’t a good thing.  The time I spend away from my H always gives me peace and a new perspective.  The live in MLC situation and the separated MLC situation have one thing in common, they both suck. 
  • Logged
Husband 55
Me 55
Kids 3 sons 29, 27, 25 1 daughter 20
BD #1 Spring 2016
BD #2 Winter 2017
married 33 years.  Together 35
H never moved out except 3 weeks after BD #1
OW 30 year single mom employee-He says EA only I don’t believe him.

  • *
  • Mentor
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 11618
  • Gender: Female
The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#118: June 19, 2021, 07:51:16 AM
More thoughts about this.

There are many other sites where you can go to that will encourage you to break all contact with your MLCer. This site was the only place that helped me understand what was happening with my spouse and how to navigate this for what was best for me and for my family.

Newbie's in particular often are looking for a "manual" or an instruction list to follow...somehow to get their loved one to come back to them. I agree that they need to protect themselves financially and I have always said that you need to separate the "business" aspects of the marriage from the emotional and "heart" aspects.  Giving "newbies" directives though about the "necessity" of separating themselves physically or not having contact is not really our "role". Even my therapist has never suggested this to me...but she did help me put the pieces of myself back together.

The rest of the world tells us enough to shut the door...Hero's Spouse offers an alternative, an understand of MLC and knowledge of how to deal with it so the LBSer can heal.

I  want newbies and old timers as well to be supported in their decision, what is right for them and not to be directed by what seems right for me. I know many LBSers who are not any more damaged by contact with their spouse than those who don't have contact.

This is a direct quote for Hero's Spouse on RCR's home page:

"What do I do about contact? Should I kick out my MLCer or tell them to stop coming to the house...? Should I go No Contact?
NO! Please understand, I am answering this for Standers who are in the beginning years of their spouses midlife crisis. If you are Standing for your marriage, beware of No Contact; contact is vitally important. Do not kick your MLCer out if you are able to handle the situation. The first days weeks and months after Bomb Drop are important for Paving the Way. No Contact is an advanced tool, for now learn about Dim and Dark.
Do not initiate contact with your MLCer, but do not cut them off either. Follow their lead.
"

That is the philosophy of HS and has been since inception and for good reason.

Quote
Part of this is accepting that what we do has almost ZERO effect on the process of a fractured mind, I think we like to pretend we have agency and control where we have none.

I totally agree but it takes a while to get to this point. There are so many "how to" save your marriage books and programs, and I think that it is rather normal to think that there is something that can be done to save the marriage...because it  isn't clear at the beginning, nor is it clear to many family and friends that this is NOT a marriage issue.

In my first comment on this topic

Quote
If you are totally sure that you are done and never want this person in your life again, perhaps eliminating them completely might lessen the pain. But our thoughts and memories still exist, and whether they are in your life physically or not, they will continue to be so in our minds and our hearts.

Many, especially newbies who come to HS are not done with their spouses and I strongly object to telling them that they must cut contact with their spouse.

Everyone has their own opinion on this but I do not wish to have this casually tossed aside as though it doesn't  matter. Or change the purpose and philosophy of Heros Spouse.

  • Logged
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

N

Nas

  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 2864
The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#119: June 19, 2021, 07:59:42 AM
Xyz, you’re taking this oddly personally.
Marvin is entitled to his opinion and to give advice based on his experience.
Newbies have to make their own choices. Nothing we say on this site is definitive.  I would argue that anyone who makes their decisions based solely on the advice of someone on the Internet is already on the wrong path.
  • Logged
« Last Edit: June 19, 2021, 08:02:05 AM by Nas »

m
  • *
  • Subscriber, 12 Month
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 823
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#120: June 19, 2021, 08:04:37 AM
Xyzcf: Great thoughts and here are some responses: I will again start by saying that I agree, there is no manual. And I am going to make clear again, I am not advocating any particular “rule.” Whether its no contact, minimal contact, constant contact or using only carrier pigeons for communication.

However everything you said HAS to be balanced by one simply reality/statement. NOTHING should be at the cost of harm to oneself. That is simply unhealthy by definition. We can decide what is important to us, what we want, and what our belief system is. But it can NEVER begin with sticking a knife into ourselves. I am sorry but I personally don’t care what philosophy I have, harming myself is SELF HARM.

So as newbies or veterans start with that test: is this healthy for me? Is this painful? Is this causing harm? If the answer to any of those questions is yes then halt. I will say I have very strong boundaries, I have had to learn how to detach due to my own experiences, I have a great deal of support systems including one of the best trauma therapists around. I still had to work hard and took a couple of dings from being around my wife for 3 weeks.

I can not see how anyone can advise a newbie who is still reeling, hasn’t found footing, is in great pain and still taking damage to “think about paving the way.” Before anything they MUST go into self preservation, healing and yes therapy. Only after a solid footing can they start deciding and acting what they want to do. Whether its to move to a new relationship or paving the way. Because doing EITHER before the above is truly a recipe for disaster.
  • Logged
« Last Edit: June 19, 2021, 08:20:02 AM by marvin4242 »
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

  • *
  • Mentor
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 4371
  • Gender: Female
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#121: June 19, 2021, 09:37:05 AM
NOTHING should be at the cost of harm to oneself.
This one is so hard. I believe in this in the context of "Do no harm to yourself for reasons that do not protect another who is not harming you." In other words, would I take a chance on harming myself in some way to save someone I love? Yes. If my child were in a rip current and drowning, danged straight I'd take the risk of drowning myself to save them. BUT I know I'm a good swimmer and my chances of getting them out are very good. That does not mean I might not harm myself taking that risk. I won't know until I reach the end of what I was trying to do.

Sadly, context is everything, even in MLC. Whether you have a wallower who lives in another room, or a monster who is in your face. I had 18 months of live in MLCer, and now that it is past, I would have 100% gone back and told me to get him out of the house. There was no way to heal while he was there, I was just going through the motions. I THOUGHT at the time I was trying to get him out of a riptide. But in truth, he was dragging me into the riptide to swim off and leave me there. I couldnt know that until I went through the whole experience because it was so foreign to me.

Standing and tolerating is not the only way. Standing with boundaries is not the only way, Standing until is not the only way. No Contact is not the only way. Etc. When each of us tells our own anecdotes as what worked for us and we offer it for consideration to the newbies, it gives them tools for their own toolbox. We can't make them use those tools, but then they at least have choices. JMO, as always.
  • Logged
When life gives you lemons, make SALSA!

  • *
  • Mentor
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 23841
  • Gender: Female
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#122: June 19, 2021, 09:47:52 AM
Marvin I have to say, after 10 years of talking to people and experiencing MLC up close, I agree with what you said. 

Now would I tell a newbie that?  Nope! They won't listen for one thing.  Secondly, some are in a very confused, fragile state of mind.  I wouldn't want to push anyone over the edge.

I would probably try to not give them too much advice (just the usual keep an eye on the finances and seek counseling if you feel you need it...that sort of thing), maybe just be heavy on supporting them.
They'll figure it out soon enough.

Having said that, that would be great advice for a newbies who is being abused.
Get away from them!

When I look back on how I felt after a couple of years I have told a few people, I wish I had packed a suitcase and gone on a two year vacation after BD.  8)
  • Logged
A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

  • *
  • Mentor
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 11618
  • Gender: Female
The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#123: June 19, 2021, 11:01:08 AM
Quote
Standing and tolerating is not the only way. Standing with boundaries is not the only way, Standing until is not the only way. No Contact is not the only way. Etc. When each of us tells our own anecdotes as what worked for us and we offer it for consideration to the newbies, it gives them tools for their own toolbox. We can't make them use those tools, but then they at least have choices.
Quote
I would probably try to not give them too much advice (just the usual keep an eye on the finances and seek counseling if you feel you need it...that sort of thing), maybe just be heavy on supporting them.

Well said Offroad and Thunder!

Quote
NOTHING should be at the cost of harm to oneself

Exactly but not everyone is harmed by contact. And for some posters, who hold certain values, it is best for them to follow their personal beliefs and not take a cookie cutter approach.

Quote
Xyz, you’re taking this oddly personally.

I am a moderator on HS. I see a few, not many posters who quickly go to a newbie's thread and tell them to stop any and all contact with their spouse. I am against that approach and am reiterating the philosophy of HS.

May I ask Nas why it matters to you? Personally or as a moderator, each participant on HS can express their views regardless of whether it aligns with other's or not.
  • Logged
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

N

Nas

  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 2864
The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#124: June 19, 2021, 11:06:10 AM
May I ask Nas why it matters to you? Personally or as a moderator, each participant on HS can express their views regardless of whether it aligns with other's or not.

Well said and this is why it matters to me, to answer your question.
  • Logged

  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 8084
  • Gender: Female
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#125: June 19, 2021, 11:41:06 AM
We don't effect their crisis, we know that. Being kind to them, to some extent (and timeline matters), may present a way home. But seriously, when has anyone's spouse "come back" while the LBS was still a newbie, and we all didn't acknowledge that it probably wasn't MLC?

There's time to find your path. And ten years out...I do sometimes regret having been so kind to my xH in the early days when he was horrible (and abuse is emotional and financial too, so there's good reason for boundaries for those as well as physical). Trauma makes it hard to make choices. Having a variety of situations presented here that people can choose or not to inspire action from is better than feeling like you have to be counter intuitive and smile in the face of maltreatment and betrayal in order to make it stop.
  • Logged

m
  • *
  • Subscriber, 12 Month
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 823
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#126: June 19, 2021, 12:01:29 PM
I am a moderator on HS. I see a few, not many posters who quickly go to a newbie's thread and tell them to stop any and all contact with their spouse. I am against that approach and am reiterating the philosophy of HS.

I am a little confused, if there is a set of rules at HS, and one of them is that this position of no contact is verboten then I would like to know. Because if that is the case (which I did not think it was) then I am not sure I can be a contributing member to the forum. Because I believe this kind of blanket mindset is downright toxic and maybe even dangerous to a lot of LBSes.

Could you please clarify so I know where I stand? Thanks.
  • Logged
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

  • *
  • Mentor
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 11618
  • Gender: Female
The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#127: June 19, 2021, 12:22:36 PM
marvin,
Quote
I see a few, not many posters who quickly go to a newbie's thread and tell them to stop any and all contact with their spouse.

Someone finds Hero's Spouse, they read the mission statement, they start to learn that maybe what has happened to their spouse is MLC. They may read the articles or dive right into the forum.

There is great advice given here. And a wide variety of views.

As I said, I have seen a couple of posters, sometimes the first to greet a newbie, tell them to stop all contact and that their spouse is a scum bag and they will be sooooooo much happier with the new love of their life.

Is there a written rule against this? No, but as a newbie, that sure as heck would not be what I would "expect" from a site that seems to have an answer to some of the perplexities of what happened so suddenly and unexpectently.

There are many different backgrounds of people who find themselves here with a wide variety of views on the permanency of marriage.

I truly think that getting to a place where you can have contact, if that is what you wish, and be ok with that can be a very healthy place for people, espeically if there are children involved.

I guess the set of rules on HS is to respect other people's opinions. Each one of us have our own experiences.

In the articles , chapter 18 describes levels of contact:

Chapter 18: Limited Contact Levels
Limited Contact Levels
Dim & Dark
No Contact
Expectations, Control & Manipulation

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/standing-actions_contact-and-communication_contact-levels.html

I still find the articles to be very useful, especially for newbies who are trying to find their way through all of this.

My opinion. Obviously you seem to feel that contact is harmful to the LBSer somehow.

My own experience , almost 12 years now, is that I still have contact with him and will continue to because that is my preference. But I am not going to try and push my point of view on a newbie who needs some support and information of how to navigate through this trauma.
  • Logged
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

  • *
  • Mentor
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 23841
  • Gender: Female
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#128: June 19, 2021, 01:21:20 PM
I know the subject of NC had been discuss to death for years.

My opinion is NC is something that is useful to protect the LBS from further
psychological damage, even RCR has stated it should not be a forever thing, unless you are done and don't want to reconcile....or you are being physically abused.

It's taking a break, if you will.  Getting away from toxic conversation, toxic contact that is leaving you exhausted and anxious....and sick.

I lost 50 pounds the first year after BD (which I did not need...ok maybe 15 pounds  ;)), I should have had stock in the Kleenex company.  I had more anxiety than I ever had in my life....and I had a nice MLCer!  He was never mean or a Monster.
He had no alienator, but his "I could care less" attitude was killing me.

This man I knew and loved for almost 30 years was gone.

I guess the other thing is, yes you can argue there are people who have reconciled who left here I'm sure.  Why stick around talking about MLC for years afterwards?  They go on with their lives.  There happy and back with their spouse.  We were a support group for them, but you don't keep going to counseling when you don't need it.

How many, out of the thousands who have joined this site, are happily back with their spouse?  With spouses who did the work and ended up being better partners.  Very, very few. It's just a reality.

The ones I've seen who were back in 2 years or so were probably not is a real midlife crisis.
They may have just been in a midlife transition, which can be common with people adjusting to age and possibly other factors in their life they were unhappy about.
They change some things and they mellow out, without causing the marriage to blow up.

These are just my opinions, for what they are worth.

Marvin you have every right to your opinions and no one should every tell you your opinions are wrong.  Their just opinions and we should never start judging each other or I'm gone.   :)

So you are not going anywhere.   ;D
  • Logged
A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

m
  • *
  • Subscriber, 12 Month
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 823
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#129: June 20, 2021, 07:26:09 PM
Thank you everyone for your posts and responses about various approaches etc.

The core of all of this is really what happens to us when we don’t actually “move on” from this kind of event. To me moving on is not about what choices we make about our marriage or relationship, rather processing, healing, letting go of the cycling MLCer, protecting ourselves, and not being angry, etc. The prime example of this is playing out right now in the “other” forum I mentioned. One of the members, who seems HIGHLY triggered by me (I believe for many reasons, including religious ones) is, by her own admission, lurking here, reading my thread, and posting selective edited comments I made here over in the other forum, then trying to get me to engage. It is exactly the behaviour that I had mentioned had happened throughout my time there (and has others here who have been there also reiterated).

The reason I post that here is simple: I don’t care what she does, but I know quite a few other members over there who have left because of people like her who “stalk,” attack and bully people they don’t agree with. This is really all about the damage, hurt and FOO we have. She has no idea who I am, I have no importance at all her in life. Yet part of her can’t let go, she is playing out her own personal pain and hurt and unresolved anger out. I really feel bad for her, I can not imagine it is comfortable in any way at all. By her own admission she did not detach and move on for years waiting for her husband. This is one example of why I strongly believe we need to detach and emotionally let go of their journey as is said over and over again.

As for my wife the quick update is she essentially blew up at me with blame and anger on a phone call where she wanted my advice on an issue. As per script she called, very anxious, didn’t let me actually say anything, then yelled and hung up as she had to go do something. No surprise there. She has already cycled from more calm and connected to herself to mini-anxious monster.

The wheel turns for us all.
  • Logged
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

N

Nas

  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 2864
The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#130: June 20, 2021, 07:54:37 PM
I am a member of the other forum. It was literally the first forum I signed up for after BD. Actually, I joined there snd at a forum about depressed spouses that sadly has faded away.  And yet I’ve never posted at that other mlc forum, mostly because of people like her. She is angry, hideously unkind and not open to any opinion that differs from her own. I am uneasy to know that she is reading along here on HS as well, but if she’s going to take quotes from here and post them on another forum (which I find vile) I would invite her to make herself known here and own up to that rather stalkish obsessive behavior so that we here at HS can let her know that her particular brand of unhinged anger is not welcome. Here we may disagree, but we don’t engage in vendettas. That kind of behavior is seriously frightening to me, reminds me of scary parts of my childhood, and I want no part of it. I hope the HS mods are alerted to this snd keeping an eye out for possible issues.

I chose to post exclusively on heroes spouse because I found that it was a community of welcoming people who listen to different points of view, have compassion for each other, and even when we disagree, we generally try to be respectful and work things out.
I’ve been a member on that other forum for nearly 5 years and have seen a lot of things there, most notably some vicious personal attacks and twisting of truths that make me feel very unsafe to open up about any aspect of myself or my journey.

FWIW, this is one of the reasons that I am so very protective of my privacy and have had such strong opinions about privacy here in the past. There are people out there who seem very unstable.
  • Logged

S
  • *
  • Mentor
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 6288
  • Gender: Female
  • Strength and honour are her clothing;
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#131: June 21, 2021, 01:30:53 AM
Quote
One of the members, who seems HIGHLY triggered by me (I believe for many reasons, including religious ones) is, by her own admission, lurking here, reading my thread, and posting selective edited comments I made here over in the other forum, then trying to get me to engage.

Um isn't there a privacy issue here? When you write on any private forum (so not FB etc) any words you write cannot be shared by others in a different forum unless you have given permission.  In the terms and conditions of both forums there must be some caveat.

As a LBS with a live in MLCer and for a while from 2017 -2020 we were stuck in reconnection; I am now selling the house to separate from my H. He is still not through his crisis and I am now unable to continue to live with his lack of commitment to reconciling at any point in the forseeable future.

My personal advice could only be to newbies who find themselves in the same situation.  Work on distancing, practise 180 and learn to detach emotionally.  Keep contact dark or dim depending on the situation especially if you have children.  The only time you should go NC is if there is abuse of any kind, removal of all finances, legal action entered into by the MLCer.  Otherwise my standard advice is self care, detach and read, read the articles by RCR and choose the approach that suits you at that moment in time. Be prepared to change your mind and thinking and be prepared to work hard on yourself.

It has taken me over 8 years to get this far; it probably would have taken others on here a lot less time. It is what it is.

Finally - I don't use the phrase "move on"   "Move forward" is more accessible, positive and supportive because it allows for less successful moments for the LBS and his/her progress.
  • Logged
BD march 2013
Stay at home MLCer
OW for 3.5 years - finishing Autumn 2016
Reconnection started 2017 and still going with no sign of reconciliation.

  • *
  • Mentor
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 23841
  • Gender: Female
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#132: June 21, 2021, 02:52:21 AM
I believe there is also the choice of going on the Private Community board, which can not be seen by the public, only members.
  • Logged
A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

m
  • *
  • Subscriber, 12 Month
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 823
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#133: June 21, 2021, 03:38:05 AM
I chose to post exclusively on heroes spouse because I found that it was a community of welcoming people who listen to different points of view, have compassion for each other, and even when we disagree, we generally try to be respectful and work things out.
I’ve been a member on that other forum for nearly 5 years and have seen a lot of things there, most notably some vicious personal attacks and twisting of truths that make me feel very unsafe to open up about any aspect of myself or my journey.

Thanks for saying what I was trying to say so much better! That was always my concern and point even when the initial “attacks” started. I was not so concerned about myself, rather how certain behaviours can really impact people, specially if they are in a vulnerable place. And it may even keep people who need support from posting because they don’t want to be lectured and preached to. Much less called names.

Um isn't there a privacy issue here? When you write on any private forum (so not FB etc) any words you write cannot be shared by others in a different forum unless you have given permission.  In the terms and conditions of both forums there must be some caveat.

There is, but the other forum is a “Wild West” at this point with no moderation, making it perfect grounds for bullying and for people to play out their own issues no others.

Thank you for the thoughts, I think I have to be more careful about using the phrase “moving on” as it may have more connotations than maybe I intend.

I believe there is also the choice of going on the Private Community board, which can not be seen by the public, only members.

Thank you, that is a good suggestion. I personally am not concerned about “privacy” and if anything in these threads helps others to have it be available to a wider audience. It more illustrates how this place is so great at providing safety and protection for people to be able to share and get support. And how some people really get further damage from previous hurts in this MLC experience or suffer new damage that maybe does not heal.
  • Logged
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

  • *
  • Mentor
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 6231
  • Gender: Female
  • How I long for your precepts! Psalm 119:40
The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#134: June 21, 2021, 09:21:38 AM
Interesting discussion. I agree that moving forward is a better expression than moving on, especially for those who like me are decidedly unattached  :)

I am also viscerally against going NC, especially in the beginning, unless there is DV involved. When we have children together, we are going to have contact throughout our lives because of them, so, once we start detaching and learning to communicate in a manner that serves the purpose at the time, the better!

My h. cycles a lot, however, he goes through quite predictable phases - when ow is close he will distance himself the most, which is now. When she moves away, or they have difficulties, he will come closer.

Our communication is the same when it occurs - friendly, courteous, affectionate, respectful - regardless of the closeness/distance. It is just much less frequent when he is on a distancing reach.

It doesn't make a difference to my daily life really - we have been divorced for six years now, our children are very close to me and we talk most days, their contact with their father is probably much less frequent. They continue to love him dearly, they just don't share their everyday lives with him so much. I am slowly, gradually, step by step, recovering financially and life is busy.

I don't think much about MLC any more - I have no doubt that he went through it and I am pretty sure he still hasn't resolved things either. I pray for him and the Lord knows what my heart's desire is.

I think the main advice I give newbies is to get out of the firing range, protect yourself from damage - financial, physical, emotional.  Not only you but your children too. The kids (regardless of their ages) are the most damaged and that is why I encourage the LBS to show and model respect for the parent who left. There are ways to continue honoring parents and it will serve the children well.

Marvin, I enjoy your measured responses here and I hope you feel encouraged to continue to post
  • Logged
M 59
H 59
S 29
D 26
BD 13 Dec 2010
Divorced 27 Feb 2015 (30 years marriage)

"For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future" Jeremiah 29:11

A
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 3565
  • Gender: Female
The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#135: June 21, 2021, 03:32:04 PM
Quote
The reason I post that here is simple: I don’t care what she does, but I know quite a few other members over there who have left because of people like her who “stalk,” attack and bully people they don’t agree with. This is really all about the damage, hurt and FOO we have. She has no idea who I am, I have no importance at all her in life. Yet part of her can’t let go, she is playing out her own personal pain and hurt and unresolved anger out. I really feel bad for her, I can not imagine it is comfortable in any way at all. By her own admission she did not detach and move on for years waiting for her husband. This is one example of why I strongly believe we need to detach and emotionally let go of their journey as is said over and over again.

Her manner of interaction with others is what one could call ‘tragic expression of unmet needs.’  It’s all about her, obviously.  We can have empathy for her pain and not take her lashing out personally.  You are doing that splendidly.  My hat off to you. 

  • Logged
Feb 2015: BD. 
Dec 2017: Seriously reconnecting

H never left home.

J

Jo

  • *
  • Trial Subscriber
  • Newbie
  • Posts: 10
  • Gender: Female
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#136: June 22, 2021, 01:40:46 PM
Hello Marvin et al., while I've been away for a few days attending my son's wedding, I did see a few of the posts that appeared under Julian (before they were appropriately and swiftly deleted by our moderators here). We come to support cites for help. We participate to give support and get support, but also to deliver with mutual respect and civility, no matter how different an opinion or experience or belief exists. This is a hallmark of a properly functioning cyber community.

I was a member at the other forum for 11 years. Earned my (don't laugh) phD in lbs hard knocks and a ten year divorce. I became a vet who seemed to focus in the divorce section to help prevent others from enduring the abuses I had by my mlcr monster, his lawyers, and a broken system.

But I'm here now, proud of my record and reputation from my tenure on the other forum, but was no longer willing to be a part of something that was causing more damage to newbies than good. I'm so thankful to the moderators here who also have a common goal of providing a safe place for all to share their journeys.

I'm happy to be here and hope to be as valued as Marvin has become.
Jo










  • Logged
« Last Edit: June 22, 2021, 02:24:28 PM by Jo »
Married 18 years, 3 sons
BD and served divorce papers on same day, 9 months after I had surgery for a brain tumor.
EA and PA while I was recovering from surgery
Deep FOO
Ex filed for phony bankruptcy 11 days after family court concluded.
Ten years of litigation to save my life's work stolen by ex.

m
  • *
  • Subscriber, 12 Month
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 823
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#137: June 23, 2021, 04:24:46 AM
Thank you everyone for your feedback and support. I have to say the response of the posters, moderator and RCR herself has been amazing. I can tell how seriously the security and comfort of the members here is of the highest priority. For those of you who saw what happened on my thread before it was corrected I also received a couple of choice personal messages. I decided to lock my thread in the other forum to stop the pollution and troll posts (one called me a troll btw). That led to an entire thread where I am metaphorically being burned in effigy. The amusing part: I am told that I am ungrateful because I said I may delete my thread, and at the same time I am told to go away and never come back. I'll try to square THAT circle later.  ::)

Back to regularly scheduled programming: I want to say how much I appreciate the feedback and insight so far on the thread. The variety of views and situations is very enlightening. As for me I am now away, but I still get the daily call or text from W about daily things. A version of "isn't this all normal." I do what I have done from the start: I don't play along but I meet her where she is. If she is friendly I am friendly. If she disappears I leave her alone. When she shares her plans (some including OM) I simply nod and say nothing (well nothing out loud, I make a few choice comments in my head!). If she approaches or tries to cross a boundary I firmly but politely decline (like her asking me to stay in the house, I simply would deflect and go off my AirBnB).

I just want to say a repeat welcome to Jo, and say thanks for your post. I think you will find not needing to constantly fend off toxic anger and attacks, and being able to focus on reading thoughtful posts and responding with your own experience to be refreshing change. It may take a little getting used to...
  • Logged
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

  • *
  • Mentor
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 23841
  • Gender: Female
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#138: June 23, 2021, 03:14:17 PM
Mitzpah thank you, I just wanted to say I so agree with you (and xyzcf).

I am very apposed to NC with you MLCer, unless they are being physically or emotionally abusive.  It depends on your situation, which is different with everyone.
Especially if you have young children.
There is no blanket solution for everyone.

If a person needs to go NC for awhile to regroup and get their sea legs under them, that's fine, but I do not think NC is a great idea for a long time, unless you no longer care about reconciling.   

I had a few people tell me to cut my MLCer off when he was going through his crisis...but he was not being abusive nor was there anyone ow involved.  It just sounded wrong to me.  He was a confused Wallower.  So with the exception of about a week, I kept communications open, but only by him initiating it.

So read the advice and make your own choice.  We will support you either way.
There will be members supporting NC and others who do not support that.
Do what is best for you.  Sometimes Dim or Dark are better choices for you.

Oh and welcome Jo.  You have found a soft place to land here.
  • Logged
« Last Edit: June 23, 2021, 03:19:28 PM by Thunder »
A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

m
  • *
  • Subscriber, 12 Month
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 823
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#139: June 24, 2021, 01:55:49 PM
Today in particular there is an important element that I think we will probably agree on, regardless of approach and levels of contact. I really do believe that we are potentially open to harm when in contact. And we should take great care that we heal. Because not healing can lead to anger, bitterness and resentment. And I believe that these all lead to us “freezing” in a state, and even potentially creating a form of toxicity that harms mostly us. This has been said before and better by many others.

Its still hard to see someone who is in rage, or in pain, or trying to hide behind a crusade and fighting made up dragons. Because pain that is not fully processed can do strange things.

Empathy is a great counter and healer. Empathy first and foremost for ourselves, and then for others. This is a dangerous idea to some, but empathy even for the people who hurt us, or we believe are our enemy. This obviously is not a new thought by a long shot, it has been around for a long time now…

I know for me one of the things that has helped me throughout this experience is to hold empathy for my wife and the pain she was in, even at her worst moments. And to some this is a dangerous thing indeed. But before any and all of this comes simply this: self care, self protection, and self love.

Thank you all for your thoughtful posts. Here is a song a-la-Nas to underscore (yes I am paying royalties to her!)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwpXtP1xqXQ
  • Logged
« Last Edit: June 24, 2021, 02:07:00 PM by marvin4242 »
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

  • *
  • Mentor
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 11618
  • Gender: Female
The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#140: June 24, 2021, 02:14:37 PM
Quote
I really do believe that we are potentially open to harm when in contact. And we should take great care that we heal.

There were times when I choose not to be in contact at all with him. Really only after about a year post BD when we initiated the legal separation process. At that point in time, it was what I needed to do for me.

For each person, there will be times when they are ok having contact and times when they need space. We can change our minds from one day to the next.

The danger to me is when someone makes a decision that they are "never" going to have contact with this person again. For some, that might be the only way to feel better, for many others, that doesn't feel good or right at all.

So be flexible knowing that you are in charge of your life and you get to choose and that choice can change from one time to another.

The phrase "be true to yourself" is in my mind, know who you are and what is important to you and then go from there.
  • Logged
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

  • ****
  • Sr. Member
  • Posts: 379
  • Gender: Male
The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#141: June 24, 2021, 09:31:28 PM
Is it me ? I dreamed of reconciling but I can’t seem to bring myself to keep her around. We haven’t had a face to face in at least a year and a half. The thought makes me sick to think about. Is it me ? Is there something wrong with me ? That’s a serious question.

 I realize I am the only unhappy one at the moment. Or so it seems . My step kids and my own kids seem to have dealt with all of this but I can’t seem to bring myself too. I know everyone heals at different times but I am coming up on three years. 
  • Logged
Together 12 yrs Married 5
5 kids 3- Step (21) (20) (18) Two together ( 8 ) (9)
BD1 March 2018 - I wish I could give you more of what you need
BD2 Aug 2018 - I want a divorce sent by text ILWYBNILWY

O/M Discovered Nov-18

  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 8084
  • Gender: Female
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#142: June 24, 2021, 10:16:39 PM
Is it me ? I dreamed of reconciling but I can’t seem to bring myself to keep her around. We haven’t had a face to face in at least a year and a half. The thought makes me sick to think about. Is it me ? Is there something wrong with me ? That’s a serious question.

 I realize I am the only unhappy one at the moment. Or so it seems . My step kids and my own kids seem to have dealt with all of this but I can’t seem to bring myself too. I know everyone heals at different times but I am coming up on three years.

Your relationship with your wife is different than the relationship your kids and step kids had in regards to your marriage and family. Their circumstances change, but their life roles and identities aren't redefined. Plus, traversing through the grief of your lost dreams together, your love, the betrayal - it's a thing. Don't worry about the timeline. Your reactions are normal. I am almost 10 years post BD and over 8 past divorce (which was the last time I saw him), and it would make me extremely anxious to have to see him. I am so much better than I was years ago, and life has gone on and moved forward, but it's trauma that in some form, does tend to take time to heal and can be expected to stick with us to some extent.
  • Logged

m
  • *
  • Subscriber, 12 Month
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 823
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#143: June 25, 2021, 12:03:47 AM
Is it me ? I dreamed of reconciling but I can’t seem to bring myself to keep her around. We haven’t had a face to face in at least a year and a half. The thought makes me sick to think about. Is it me ? Is there something wrong with me ? That’s a serious question.

 I realize I am the only unhappy one at the moment. Or so it seems . My step kids and my own kids seem to have dealt with all of this but I can’t seem to bring myself too. I know everyone heals at different times but I am coming up on three years.

There is NOTHING wrong with you. First whatever the kids and step kids “seem” to be doing doesn’t in any way change or impact how you feel. What you have/are going through is not the same. And not to make it potentially worse but honestly kids will not necessarily show or fully register how this impacts them. Kids tend to adapt to what is in the short term, that doesn’t mean they have “dealt with it.” Other parents here can give you better feedback about this.

Three years is not very long. And your experience is different than everyone else’s. In my opinion there are a lot of ways you have moved forward very well. But you are still in the thick of it, and I can not imagine that dealing with these hearings is in any way easy.

Can I ask what being “healed” would look like to you?
  • Logged
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

  • *****
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 13292
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#144: June 25, 2021, 08:44:59 AM
Quote
I really do believe that we are potentially open to harm when in contact. And we should take great care that we heal.

There were times when I choose not to be in contact at all with him. Really only after about a year post BD when we initiated the legal separation process. At that point in time, it was what I needed to do for me.

For each person, there will be times when they are ok having contact and times when they need space.
We can change our minds from one day to the next.

I think this is great advice.

I have contact with my ex - mostly when children or grandchildren get us together.

Not initiated by me but also just going with the flow.

I agree that you have to do whats best for YOU.

Always thats the best advice.
  • Logged

  • ****
  • Sr. Member
  • Posts: 379
  • Gender: Male
The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#145: June 25, 2021, 11:11:24 AM
To me I guess it’s were I can say I’m meh? About her and the whole thing. I still find myself so angry at times about the sitch. The whole how could she etc etc. I still think about it somehow just about daily. Not all the time but enough.
  • Logged
Together 12 yrs Married 5
5 kids 3- Step (21) (20) (18) Two together ( 8 ) (9)
BD1 March 2018 - I wish I could give you more of what you need
BD2 Aug 2018 - I want a divorce sent by text ILWYBNILWY

O/M Discovered Nov-18

m
  • *
  • Subscriber, 12 Month
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 823
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#146: June 25, 2021, 11:23:09 AM
To me I guess it’s were I can say I’m meh? About her and the whole thing. I still find myself so angry at times about the sitch. The whole how could she etc etc. I still think about it somehow just about daily. Not all the time but enough.

Part of it must be that you are still dealing with it. I say that from your own thread and posts, you are still in the thick of having to sort out important things with her. And from what you have shared here she is not being reasonable, nor caring, nor kind. So if it was me that could be the source of new anger in itself. The how could she, well I will say I know I have moments where that still floods in and I haven't really had to engage with my W anywhere near what you had to and you still have to. So its hard to get to "meh" with everything.

So FWIW I say please be kind to yourself, give yourself space to be angry, to feel hurt, but keep moving forward like you have been. Sometimes we can be too hard on ourselves.
  • Logged
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

m
  • *
  • Subscriber, 12 Month
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 823
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#147: July 06, 2021, 03:18:37 AM
So as I start to approach the limit of my first thread and expecting the thread police to pull me over any second now I wanted to post an update, or rather a non-update.

First as far as my W we are now into what is probably week six of this interesting version of "reality." She is still at the house, she is still very friendly, text or talk almost daily (she calls or texts). Nothing deep, only light conversation and almost all of it having to do with what she needs. But unlike most of the other touch and gos she actually occasionally will ask the basic minimum "how are you doing, what are you up to" as part of the whatever topic she wants to discuss or needs help with. I have been gone for two weeks and am still away for another 3 weeks and I am hoping she goes on the extended trip she has been talking about (I don't mind AirBnBs but it will be nice to go back home and visit with the cats). I would like any newbie, or anyone who is reading who is in year one, two, or three who sees a form of "return" as they would think to take note. Each story is different but this is pretty common from all the stories I have read across the forums. I know enough to read NOTHING into this. Not that I am expecting anything, I rather am saying this re-emphasize that reading any tea leaves or interpretation is probably very unwise. She is still very much fractured and her reality is not one any of us would understand.

And for amusement only for those of you who saw the blip of drama from some "posters" on my thread earlier. I had stopped posting mostly in the other forum because of the toxicity. When an entire thread was devoted to badmouthing me and calling me names the end result was that my account and thread was deleted from the forum, while the instigators (some of which you saw here) have been left untouched.

I am smiling as I write this, not at all surprised. I am considering whether it may be useful for others if I created a very edited version of my story over the years to post here. The past is the past for me, but it may help others.
  • Logged
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

A
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 3565
  • Gender: Female
The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#148: July 07, 2021, 10:11:12 AM
Interesting that they removed your thread, rather than doing the sensible thing by waving goodbye to the real cause.  That particular rabbit hole is getting deeper and darker…

Quote
I know enough to read NOTHING into this. Not that I am expecting anything, I rather am saying this re-emphasize that reading any tea leaves or interpretation is probably very unwise. She is still very much fractured and her reality is not one any of us would understand.

Reading tea leaves.  I have observed this phenomenon quite often, myself included. (Isn’t it quite easy to recognize in other what you have experienced yourself? ::)) The message —which is routinely included in welcome notes for newbies — that ‘MLC has nothing to do with you or M’ is enthusiastically accepted as it should be.  However, that message sometimes goes AWOL after a while and there emerges a tendency to see what LBS perceives as a ‘forward movement’ of the MLCer as being about LBS and M, even if partially. 

In my observations over the years, it appears that some MLCers tend to settle down in a more sustainable form of replay after the initial whirlwind of crazy replay activities, and that is often interpreted as ‘moving forward.’   That ‘settling down to sustainable replay’ sometimes seems to coincide with them trying less adversarial or more friendly interactions with LBS, especially if there are kids involved.  (Well, no brainer.  I think we humans prefer to have peaceable, rather than ‘violent,’  interactions with others, generally speaking.)

Some of us interpret MLCer’s less adversarial attitude toward them as being meaningful in terms of MLCer warming up his romantic heart toward LBS and better days ahead for marriage, and start labelling them as ‘touch and go’ or ‘reconnection.’  I made that mistake, forgetting that H’s mild change of attitude toward me had nothing to do with me or repairing our marriage, but with his own state of mind and what made him feel better. 

I would be the first person to admit that it is difficult not to conflate MLCer’s progress (albeit LBS’s subjective observations) through his crisis with that of marital relationship.  Conflating the two kept my eyes on H and reading tea leaves, and crossing over from the realms of ‘hope’ to delusional expectations on regular basis.  And that, I found out, hindered me from becoming fully detached from another person’s crisis and being able to live each day joyfully and thankfully.   The sooner you ditch micro observations of MLCer and subjective interpretations of them (you see what you want to see), the better life you can live. 

Just my view.  :)

  • Logged
« Last Edit: July 07, 2021, 10:21:57 AM by Acorn »
Feb 2015: BD. 
Dec 2017: Seriously reconnecting

H never left home.

  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 8084
  • Gender: Female
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#149: July 07, 2021, 11:41:01 AM
Your view is spot-on, Acorn, and even those of us without kids can sometimes see the "sustainable replay" (love that term) when either the MLC can use us for something of value to them (I think RCR would refer to "puppy monster" years ago) or they're likely spewing in some other direction (not necessarily the OW/OM) and not putting energy into the rail against us in that moment. I think that's why it turns back angry so inexplicably in our eyes - we're not seeing the transference as it happens. I believe that the anger literally just has to go somewhere, and it doesn't really matter where. But our perception will be totally off at the time because it's coming from our own experiences and expectations. Dangerous!

So sorry about this ridiculous forum experience, Marvin. I've participated in a ton of forums for various topics over the last few decades, and this kind of thing almost always happens at least once. I used to think HS was just a magical place that was immune! Nope. Like with MLCers, some people have to project somewhere and work out their issues, and strangers on the internet are a pretty good resource in that regard. I actually had a very good friend once who was a huge internet troll. Knowing her backstory, I understood the underlying dysfunction that caused her to need that drama and attention. Eventually it pivoted to personal relationships like the one we had, and I got away from her. All you can really do is set boundaries and detach. Where have I heard that before? ;)
  • Logged

m
  • *
  • Subscriber, 12 Month
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 823
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#150: July 07, 2021, 01:01:03 PM
Thank you both for the great observations. I honestly do not take what happened elsewhere to heart (just like with my Ws MLC). Honestly the whole MLC experience was a gift in two major ways: one was that I finally really internalized what is mine and what is not mine, and really have gotten to comfortably be around other peoples “issues” without reflecting any of it on myself. This applies to my W and some of the angry unhappy people in real and virtual life. The second is finding and growing the parts of me that were “needing” someone else to be ok. And without that need it is so much easier to just live MY life, and not have any focus on what my W or anyone else is doing.

In all truth as many have said it is more likely the LBS will move on than the MLCer will ever “wake up.” That doesn’t mean one shouldn’t decide for a healthy stand if they choose. Rather it points to where I am today. I really read nothing into anything she does. And you both have described it well: she is in a more manageable, less frantic state of replay. With some attempts at trying to keep me around.
  • Logged
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

N

Nas

  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 2864
The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#151: July 07, 2021, 01:04:35 PM
Marvin, Acorn and R2T, great posts, way to end Marvin's first thread with a mic drop.

Marvin, FYI, now that you've entered the realm, I do have some expectations (going against LBS protocol) for a second thread title-song association so please do not disappoint.  But absolutely no pressure, lol.  ;)
  • Logged

m
  • *
  • Subscriber, 12 Month
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 823
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#152: July 07, 2021, 01:13:53 PM
New thread before I get kicked in the head….

https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11801.0
  • Logged
« Last Edit: July 07, 2021, 06:59:44 PM by Mitzpah »
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

  • *
  • Mentor
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 11396
  • Gender: Male
  • You can't please everyone. You are NOT a pizza!
The Dawn holds the heaviness of the Night
#153: July 08, 2021, 03:50:13 AM
  • Logged
Me - 58, xW - 50
Together 19 years - Married 17 at separation & 21 at D-Day
S - 14, D - 10
2 Dogs
BD#1 - August 2015
Atomic BD - 13 Dec 2015
House sold & separated - Mar 2016
Divorce final 30 August 2019

Survival Instructions for Newbies
Site Map
 
A "friend" will not "stand by you" no matter what you do. That is NOT a friend. That is an enabler. That is an accomplice.
A REAL friend will sit you down and tell you to your face to stop being a firetrucking idiot before you ruin your life and the lives of those around you.

 

Legal Disclaimer

The information contained within The Hero's Spouse website family (www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com, http://theherosspouse.com and associated subdomains), (collectively 'website') is provided as general information and is not intended to be a substitute for professional legal, medical or mental health advice or treatment for specific medical conditions. The Hero's Spouse cannot be held responsible for the use of the information provided. The Hero's Spouse recommends that you consult a trained medical or mental health professional before making any decision regarding treatment of yourself or others. The Hero's Spouse recommends that you consult a legal professional for specific legal advice.

Any information, stories, examples, articles, or testimonials on this website do not constitute a guarantee, or prediction regarding the outcome of an individual situation. Reading and/or posting at this website does not constitute a professional relationship between you and the website author, volunteer moderators or mentors or other community members. The moderators and mentors are peer-volunteers, and not functioning in a professional capacity and are therefore offering support and advice based solely upon their own experience and not upon legal, medical, or mental health training.