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Author Topic: My Story Love & Hate

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My Story Love & Hate
OP: July 07, 2021, 01:13:30 PM
Well a gauntlet was thrown, and I failed in any way to meet it but here it is. My second thread in the saga of “As the MLC turns…”

The song to kick this one off is…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZzA2Ne0HSo

Link to first (previous thread) thread: https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11777.0
 
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« Last Edit: July 07, 2021, 03:09:03 PM by Thunder »
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

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Love & Hate
#1: July 08, 2021, 03:54:59 AM




Following along....
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Me - 58, xW - 50
Together 19 years - Married 17 at separation & 21 at D-Day
S - 14, D - 10
2 Dogs
BD#1 - August 2015
Atomic BD - 13 Dec 2015
House sold & separated - Mar 2016
Divorce final 30 August 2019

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A "friend" will not "stand by you" no matter what you do. That is NOT a friend. That is an enabler. That is an accomplice.
A REAL friend will sit you down and tell you to your face to stop being a firetrucking idiot before you ruin your life and the lives of those around you.

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Re: Love & Hate
#2: July 08, 2021, 12:00:50 PM
the end result was that my account and thread was deleted from the forum, while the instigators (some of which you saw here) have been left untouched.
I have been a member of that forum for 5 years but apparently only posted once on your thread.

So now my one post is gone and I tried to figure out how to post but tbh nothing really turned on that switch so I guess I will go another 5 years with no posts.  :) :) :)
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Re: Love & Hate
#3: July 08, 2021, 12:15:47 PM
the end result was that my account and thread was deleted from the forum, while the instigators (some of which you saw here) have been left untouched.
I have been a member of that forum for 5 years but apparently only posted once on your thread.

So now my one post is gone and I tried to figure out how to post but tbh nothing really turned on that switch so I guess I will go another 5 years with no posts.  :) :) :)

Well I see! Maybe it was YOUR post that got me deleted!

 8) ;D
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No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

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Re: Love & Hate
#4: July 08, 2021, 12:31:33 PM
Welcome to your new thread, Marvin!

I'll be following along.
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A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

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Re: Love & Hate
#5: July 08, 2021, 12:43:41 PM
the end result was that my account and thread was deleted from the forum, while the instigators (some of which you saw here) have been left untouched.
I have been a member of that forum for 5 years but apparently only posted once on your thread.

So now my one post is gone and I tried to figure out how to post but tbh nothing really turned on that switch so I guess I will go another 5 years with no posts.  :) :) :)

Well I see! Maybe it was YOUR post that got me deleted!

 8) ;D
Its very possible - I can't even remember what I said, maybe like following along or something  else quite controversial.
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Love & Hate
#6: July 08, 2021, 02:39:02 PM
Following along, Marvin.
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Love & Hate
#7: July 09, 2021, 05:23:07 PM
Attaching
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Love & Hate
#8: July 10, 2021, 04:04:31 PM
Hi Marvin,

Here to continue to follow your journey.

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W - 42
M - 46
Together 19 years, M 17
2 kids
BD - July 2020
W Left Home - January 2021
W Filed for D - May 2021

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Re: Love & Hate
#9: July 16, 2021, 01:53:48 AM
Thanks everyone for following along. Well nothing much to report still, seems like right now my W has settled into a new "normal" which is exactly the same as before. I am about to head back to town in another week, so I reached out to see what her "plans" were. Seems like she is happy to hang out at the house for now, so I am making arrangements for more AirBnB fun while I am in town for a few weeks.

Its just interesting to note that when I get back she will have been back for 2 months, and seems to plan to stay for at least a few more weeks. But then again it simply may be waiting for a time clock to run out so she can go back to her other "home" (something to do with an expired visa).

Only thing of note is that she has reduced contact somewhat again. And it seems there are more times when she does talk she sounds more anxious. All I have to say is I would NOT want to be constantly in a state of flux and anxiety. It has always puzzled me (MLC or not) when people who are obviously in emotional pain do not directly address what is going on. If you walked around with a broken leg how long would you keep pretending you are ok?

Song for today (TM Nas), lyrics appropriate, but a version that fits the feel:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_Tb6zCSzpM
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No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

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Love & Hate
#10: July 16, 2021, 06:41:17 AM
That is exactly what boggles the mind. My XH has tried talk therapy and counseling twice. When he seems to get to the worst part that just may cross the bridge he exits. He can not face the pain of what put him where he is and he cant face the pain of his escape coping mechanisms.

Before going NC a couple weeks ago I sent him a list of Dr’s . He said he was going to go. He said “I have to do something” The other woman he is jet setting all over with is no longer keeping him from his depression all the time and of course as relationships progress more intimacy in conversation is needed. He only wants to stay superficial.

The exit from their lives is a desperate measure that will only last for so long. Either they live a life of lies and pain or face the pain and come out the other end. Sad to see so many lives changed forever due to the inability to face reality

H-54
W-58
Married 7/6/1991
Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 deceased
Moved out for space-jan 2018
BD1-march 2018 found phone
EA ow1-49
EA-ow2 57
EA- ow3 58
Moved back-Oct 2018
BD2-October 2020
OW-46
Divorce filed-Dec 202O
Divorce final-Feb 2021
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H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

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Re: Love & Hate
#11: July 17, 2021, 02:04:39 AM
The exit from their lives is a desperate measure that will only last for so long. Either they live a life of lies and pain or face the pain and come out the other end. Sad to see so many lives changed forever due to the inability to face reality

TornUp, I know you have gone through a lot. And you are absolutely correct. Our challenge in all this is to get to acceptance. Acceptance that this has happened, acceptance that it has nothing to do with us, acceptance that they are no longer our friend much less partner, acceptance that their pain and challenge is not ours (and it never was), and acceptance that we have to let them go and take care of ourselves.

If we don’t then our love will most likely turn to hate over time. Hence the title of the thread…
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No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

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Re: Love & Hate
#12: July 29, 2021, 03:50:34 AM
Well not much is going on, my W seems to be settled into a new "stasis." She is friendly but not as friendly as she was when she first arrived. There are occasional life decisions where she will use "we" and I simply ignore it. No interest in any "interpretation" as there is no logic to be found (intellectually or emotionally). She is still engaged in improvements around the house, right now its in the yard and general care of the outdoors. That has always been her interest and love, so its not that unusual. And hey who am I to complain, its nice to have someone improve the lawn and garden while I do nothing!  ;D

I have decided to extend my trip (not relate to my W at all, just decided I prefer where I am where weather is nice and optional are plenty to very hot and humid weather back home and not much to do). So if plans hold I won't potentially see my wife until end of September, assuming she is still around. One nice advantage is I know my cats are not alone while I am gone. So that is yet another good thing about her hanging around the house.

I find myself pondering and thinking about how I felt loved before everything fell apart. I am sorting out my needs and desires from what was really happening, trying to assess how much of what I felt was coming from her and how much was me projecting what I needed on her. I am a strong believer that ultimately it DOES NOT matter, so questions like "was it real" are not useful or needed. If we felt it then it was real for US and that is all we have. In my case it is an exercise in understanding myself. The interesting discussion in another thread (Nas) prompted this. I am trying to discover how much own early life experiences shaped my acceptance of my W and how much she was in a way my first real experience in being mostly accepted and loved. And that was important to me and an important part of my growth and life.

Which honestly is all we can ask for in a lot of ways. The inner workings and motivations are not really that important imho. This also applies to everything I have learned since my wife (but not my life) fell apart.

Todays musical journey (as always TM Nas):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFLOG2wxg3Q
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No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

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Re: Love & Hate
#13: July 29, 2021, 04:33:55 AM
Quote
I am a strong believer that ultimately it DOES NOT matter, so questions like "was it real" are not useful or needed. If we felt it then it was real for US and that is all we have.
Quote

This!!!  Have a wonderful Trip Marvin
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H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

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Love & Hate
#14: July 29, 2021, 07:02:14 AM
It sounds like you are enjoying yourself, away from an unpleasant weather condition back home.  Well, why not, especially if you have a live-in pet sitter.  Enjoy and enjoy some more! 

Your post took me back to the memories of my early days of LBS-hood.   I wasn’t detached, though I tried to convince myself that I was, and reacted in the opposite manner to what you have written here.  To illustrate the contrast, I provide my reaction.  Don’t laugh. 

Quote
There are occasional life decisions where she will use "we" and I simply ignore it.


“O my gosh, my H said ‘WE’ a few times!  I wonder what that means for our relationship.  I think it’s something REAL good and positive.’

Quote
No interest in any "interpretation" as there is no logic to be found (intellectually or emotionally)

“I think he is finally seeing the light and, I dare say, US.  Love, love, love this humongous progress!”

Quote
She is still engaged in improvements around the house, right now its in the yard and general care of the outdoors. That has always been her interest and love, so its not that unusual.

“Wow, I can’t believe my eyes.  He must be reconnecting!   Don’t MLCers reconnect with things/people from the periphery, such as the house and garden, and then progressively move on to pets, to friends, to family, to children and then finally ME?  I wonder how long before he will be at the centre(ME!) of the concentric circles of reconnection.  I can hardly wait!”

…..

Quote
I am trying to discover how much own early life experiences shaped my acceptance of my W and how much she was in a way my first real experience in being mostly accepted and loved. And that was important to me and an important part of my growth and life.

Which honestly is all we can ask for in a lot of ways. The inner workings and motivations are not really that important imho. This also applies to everything I have learned since my wife (but not my life) fell apart.

You have succinctly expressed similar lessons I have learned but found difficult to put into written words.  Thank you.

Once you learn the above lesson, you cannot go back to speculating another person’s ‘inter workings and motivations’ because you can see how futile and unhelpful that is.  It applies to all humans we interact with, not just MLCer, in my view.

LBS can make observations and that’s where a calm and detached person stops as you have done.  Besides, you are not giving us a blow by blow account of ‘what my wife did.’

If LBS goes beyond observing and make assumptions about what’s in MLCer’s head, what stage he/she is in, or make predictions in regards to MLCer’s trajectory and relationship — no matter how calmly it is written — I suggest that LBS has a bit of inner work to do…. Yeah, speaking from personal experience. 

Quote
I find myself pondering and thinking about how I felt loved before everything fell apart. I am sorting out my needs and desires from what was really happening, trying to assess how much of what I felt was coming from her and how much was me projecting what I needed on her. I am a strong believer that ultimately it DOES NOT matter, so questions like "was it real" are not useful or needed. If we felt it then it was real for US and that is all we have. In my case it is an exercise in understanding myself.

Yes, yes, yes!

A lot of dividends are to be gained when we focus on our own ‘inner workings and motivations..’

Enjoy your stay where fair weather rules. 
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« Last Edit: July 29, 2021, 08:29:46 AM by Acorn »
Feb 2015: BD. 
Dec 2017: Seriously reconnecting

H never left home.

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Love & Hate
#15: July 29, 2021, 09:16:18 AM
There’s so much good here… I get a lot of this same stuff from my W. She’s been back in our home for 4 months now (after 6 months away), she talks about home improvements and we are starting to move forward with them; there are shared travel plans; she uses “we” and “us” and the occasional pet names; she even moved her engagement ring back to her left ring finger. All of these are things that I observe because… well, it’s happening right under my nose. But what this past year or so has taught me is that reading meaning into someone else’s words or actions is only going to lead to misunderstandings down the road. Home improvements - harbinger of reconnection to the home, or further escape and avoid through spending money and changing things? Doesn’t matter… I will have the discussion, and if the improvement is something that I want, why not move forward? Travel - same thought process. The ring location - who knows, maybe she’s just wearing it where it feels most comfortable and because she likes the way it looks. Maybe it’s meant to be a big glaring signal to me, but I’m not playing those games. Healthy communication from a place of mutual respect, kindness, and honesty - that’s what would signal real progress, and that doesn’t require any reading of subtext.

Thanks, Marvin, for expressing so eloquently this situation that could throw a lot of mixed signals for anyone who is still looking for signals in the subtext. It’s a really important reminder to keep our eyes on ourselves and our feet pointed along our own paths.
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Love & Hate
#16: July 30, 2021, 09:19:46 PM

Quote
I am trying to discover how much own early life experiences shaped my acceptance of my W and how much she was in a way my first real experience in being mostly accepted and loved. And that was important to me and an important part of my growth and life.

Which honestly is all we can ask for in a lot of ways. The inner workings and motivations are not really that important imho. This also applies to everything I have learned since my wife (but not my life) fell apart.

You have succinctly expressed similar lessons I have learned but found difficult to put into written words.  Thank you.

Once you learn the above lesson, you cannot go back to speculating another person’s ‘inter workings and motivations’ because you can see how futile and unhelpful that is.  It applies to all humans we interact with, not just MLCer, in my view.

LBS can make observations and that’s where a calm and detached person stops as you have done.  Besides, you are not giving us a blow by blow account of ‘what my wife did.’

If LBS goes beyond observing and make assumptions about what’s in MLCer’s head, what stage he/she is in, or make predictions in regards to MLCer’s trajectory and relationship — no matter how calmly it is written — I suggest that LBS has a bit of inner work to do…. Yeah, speaking from personal experience. 



Thank you Marvin and Acorn for such valuable insight.  As I work through my own situation, this has helped me to continue my own inner work.  I will post on my thread shortly but appreciate so much both of your insights.

HF
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W - 42
M - 46
Together 19 years, M 17
2 kids
BD - July 2020
W Left Home - January 2021
W Filed for D - May 2021

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Re: Love & Hate
#17: August 14, 2021, 05:29:35 AM
First thank you everyone for the excellent thoughts and comments. Its so nice to have thoughtful dialogue and get to see so many viewpoints expressed and shared.

Second I thought its time for an almost non update. I have been pretty hectic, I am in the process of moving in my secondary home overseas from one flat to another. This was the flat I had set up a few months after BD1. We had always planned to slowly move here, that was always part of our plans (although I have been traveling here a very long time and it has always been my favorite city). So after BD1 part of GAL was to make “our” plans back to “my plans.” So I found a flat and set up a home for myself. This was a big deal as it was the first “home” I had set up by myself in over 2 decades. There was a lot of emotions, lot of healing, lot of pain, and a lot of reclaiming myself that happened in that process. And this place was truly “mine” as my W was not any part of it.

I have found a new place that is better suited for the long term for me. If I were to truly move here completely the new place is ideal. The old one was good, but its hard to find the right place and when the opportunity came I had to seriously consider it. Part of the reason I went ahead was an acknowledgement that my future probably is here. Another part was a strange feeling that the time for my first place had somehow passed. I have been here now 4 years, and these 4 years in a lot of ways were a transition from the old life to the new. And maybe a part of me is now done in subtle ways with “transition.” Not sure but it sure sounds like a good story! It is an interesting random event that I took over the new place almost exactly 4 years from the time I got the first one.

As for my W, there is small non surprising developments. She informed me that she is headed back overseas to her other “home.” She did not use those words, and it was couched in vague reasons why. So at least I get to go back home for a while when I return. The “fun” part was initially she wanted to stop here and spend a few days with me. I politely let it be known that I would be happy to meet for dinner and lunch occasionally but I was busy otherwise. This led to her deciding to head straight back and skip a visit until I was more “free.”

I’ll take this opportunity to once again say to others in their own journey: don’t try to look for patterns, don’t read into anything. From everything I have seen there is no “stable” or patterned process. That is why the words I have seen over and over applies: what is said today means nothing tomorrow. My W went from staying, to visiting, to going away. And I can honestly in no way tell you whether she will be gone for 2 weeks, 2 months, 2 years, or 2 decades.

Nice part is whichever one she chooses it in no way alters my plans. I am too busy moving, literally!
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No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

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Love & Hate
#18: August 14, 2021, 06:31:59 AM
Good luck moving! Sounds like you have found a lovely place.

I think about moving back to my home country but 1) I really love my house here, the weather, my friends and 2) moving internationally is a big pain.

Quote
The “fun” part was initially she wanted to stop here and spend a few days with me.

I just shook my head when I read that..they truly are bizarre.
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"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

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Love & Hate
#19: August 14, 2021, 07:21:33 AM
Quote
what is said today means nothing tomorrow
truer words have never been spoken when it come to MLC. Hard lesson to learn. Feels like it took me forever to grasp this. Trying to find reasoning and rationale in the non-reasonable and non-rational is NOT possible.
Good luck on the move!!
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H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

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Love & Hate
#20: August 14, 2021, 09:44:18 AM
Random thought. If you had still been standing, made more effort to be present for here while she was "staying", welcomed her where you are when she wanted to stop in, would what she is finally doing(going back) be different? Was she looking to see if there was any opening for her to come back, and she saw that there was not?

You'll never know unless she tells you, but it does underscore how interactions with mlcers need to be about what the lbs wants and where they are in their own lives. It appears for you that you have no desire to give her any encouragement on the romantic front and it appears that whatever she thought when she arrived at the house wasn't what she thought it might be, so she changed her mind, as people can do. If there is nothing for her there, why stay?

Sounds like your new place will be great for you.
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When life gives you lemons, make SALSA!

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Re: Love & Hate
#21: August 14, 2021, 11:43:48 AM
OffRoad: great question. I think if someone is actively standing to restore their marriage they may make different decisions. I would suspect they may sometimes overextend themselves, hoping that their being “available” will somehow change something in their MLCers. I will say this: if I had suspected that she was developing some awareness that she was not ok, that she was responsible for her decisions, or in any way was reaching out even for a friend I would have extended more of a hand. But the truth is even if I was actively standing where she is now I would not have really done anything different. Because it was just more of what suited her, she wanted to have a version of her old life back. She wanted us to go to the same places we went, for me to be the “friend” she wants on her terms without her in any way realizing I am person with feelings, needs, and that friendship is a two way street. Essentially she wants to play at being a couple, and I think it is a disservice to all parties to go along with disordered behaviour.

The one thing that I may have not said clearly is that I am in a way standing, but not for my marriage. As I used to say in my old site/thread I meet her where she is. I never tell her anything about her, no truth darts, no help, no “guidance.” When she is friendly I am friendly, when she withdraws I leave her alone. In fact she has been staying at what used to be our home for 3 months while I went from AirBnB to AirBnB because I want her to be somewhere she probably feels is safe. I simply will not distort or contort myself in hope of “fixing” her. My hope is that one day she starts finding her way out of her misery, and that if she ever needs a friend and she is actively trying to heal I will help her any way I can. Which honestly I would assume is a significant portion of what someone would want to do if they were standing to restore their marriage.
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BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
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#22: August 14, 2021, 02:09:03 PM
Marvin-

She is so lucky to have you. Some of these MLC’rs just have no idea how lucky they are to have such dedication standing for them. Whether it be for friendship or marriage. What we wouldn’t do to have that person. I would love a ME in my back pocket to rely on. Thank you for sharing.
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2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
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Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

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#23: August 14, 2021, 02:28:39 PM
Hi Marvin. I had the same thought/question as OR. Even though ‘they come back broken’ is a rote phrase, it strikes me that there’s likely a lot of truth to be found in it. From the cheap seats as they’re known, it does appear that your W might have been ‘wondering’ about possibilities but not brave enough to expose them to you. It’s absolutely up to you what you do with that possibility. But I do wonder when you say that you’re standing for her as a friend, what would it look like to you if she was ‘ok’ and wanting a friendship with you? Would you expect her to be bold enough to tell you that? To actively move towards you and say those words/show those actions? Again, no judgement, but putting myself in your Ws shoes (as if I really could!) I think I’d be quite terrified of your reaction if I did that and instead would be waiting for you to ‘open the door’ a little and show you’d like the friendship to be closer again before I risked ‘putting myself out there’. I just wonder if your passiveness and leaving it up to her to make those first moves resulted in her deciding a closer friendship wasn’t an option so she’d just withdraw again. Just thoughts. I’ve wanted to comment on the ‘the LBS is not safe’ discussion for a while but can’t quite find the words to explain my views on that so haven’t. Coming out of the woodwork very early here on a Sunday, and on my phone, so apologies if this isn’t terribly coherent. I just think the ‘the LBS holds all the cards and doesn’t feel ‘safe’ for the MLCer’ is likely very true sometimes. I don’t think the LBS should feel offended by that in any way because all it reflects is the ‘power’ they hold over the MLC. Because when you have betrayed and hurt so profoundly someone you love, that persons opinion of you and reactions to you can have huge power over you. That makes the betrayed person potentially very unsafe for the betrayer. I’m sure I’m not explaining myself at all well so will stop rambling now. I completely respect your right to your thoughts/reactions as you obviously know your situation far better than we can through a screen. I enjoy reading about and learning from those thoughts.
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Re: Love & Hate
#24: August 14, 2021, 02:59:02 PM
Evermore I am a huge believer that we should NEVER try to read someone else’s mind or motives. Specially someone who is disordered, like what we call an MLCer. I have shared this in Nas’ thread. They are in a hall of mirrors. They don’t have coherent motives. I think it’s best to deal with them at “face value.” Watch their actions, not their words. I think too many LBSes spend way too much energy “analyzing” and looking fir signs.

I personally believe that until they start taking responsibility for their own unhappiness nothing will begin to change. I personally don’t expect my W to say anything, bold or otherwise. She only needs to start acting. I have read over and over and I also agree that when they truly are trying to reconnect their behaviour will be the indication. She came back to our home for some reason. She actively reached out to spend time together for some reason. I did engage her in both while I was back home, but only to the extent that was congruent with reality and with her actions. Its not reality to think she can show up for a few days here and spend time with me like we did when we were married and we used to be together. I did make it clear I would be happy to go to dinner or lunch while she was here, which is much more realistic. In fact that is quite a gesture of friendship all things considered.
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#25: August 15, 2021, 12:40:00 AM
Like you, I have become rather allergic to using my magical mind reading hat  :)
A healthy adult can and should ask for what they want and need. If they can’t or don’t, then they are not a healthy adult or they don’t actually want it that much or they are cycling round an old pattern of trying to get others to pick up their responsibilities or rescue them. It is pretty impossible imho to have a healthy adult relationship with an unhealthy person who is so very self-centred that they can’t do normal adult reciprocity or empathy or own their own stuff.

Do I think that crisis folks flail around? Or do things without clearly thinking about why they do them or even entirely understanding why? Or without considering the effects or consequences? Or throwing spaghetti against the wall to see if it sticks or if someone else might put it in a nice bowl for them? Sure. It’s not a very frontal cortex kind of place is it? Folks in crisis seem to me to be essentially driven by an emotional compulsion to either feel better right now or avoid feeling bad right now. And on it goes until/if they can get their frontal cortex back in action  :) Was/is your w looking for something with her 3 month return to your previously shared home or her drop in suggestion where you are now? Probably. Did she find it or even know what it is? Who knows.....but if she doesn’t articulate that, how on earth could you? And why would one think one should?

That knee jerk LBS reaction to infer x from y is a messy place, isn’t it, and owning our bit of it too? But I think it serves us well to be clear-eyed about the kind of relationship one can actually realistically have with someone in this kind of state....and indeed the disadvantages for you and them of signing up to be the Magical Mind Reading Spaghetti Scooper for someone else’s life and emotions. Tbh now I see it as much more arrogant and disrespectful than I used to do  :) One doesn’t have to judge it or them to be able to evaluate it imho.

New gaff sounds like an adventure, Marvin. With hindsight, I think a lot of us create transitional spaces post BD when we are perhaps one foot in the old life and one foot in a new. Does it betoken a shift in how/where you are planning to live your life in the next chapter? Or mean letting go of anything from the old shared life that might affect your w’s landscape? What do you like about the new place that is different from the old one?
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Re: Love & Hate
#26: August 15, 2021, 02:43:30 AM
New gaff sounds like an adventure, Marvin. With hindsight, I think a lot of us create transitional spaces post BD when we are perhaps one foot in the old life and one foot in a new. Does it betoken a shift in how/where you are planning to live your life in the next chapter? Or mean letting go of anything from the old shared life that might affect your w’s landscape? What do you like about the new place that is different from the old one?

Honestly its just a milestone in my life. I accepted that my old life was over a long time ago (probably around 6 months after BD1), and the final "nail" was most likely in 2018 when my wife announced we should go our separate ways. I was already living my life separate from my W, but would engage with her I would say more actively when she did reappear. But after that "decision" on her part I really did let go of viewing her as even a more removed part of my life. So this is a normal progression that has to do with just me, not in any way with her. She is really now just a person I used to know (as the song says).

I always view life as constant change. Not crazy or forced change, but its the nature of life itself. I have always found that trying to resist change is what usually tends to cause us a lot of friction and pain. This is true outside of all things MLC and even when everything is very good. Change is a constant. So this is a part of that ongoing change for me.

The truth is I have been straddling the two "homes" for a few years now, knowing that I enjoy life on this side more, but something was holding me back from tilting over. It was not my W, as I mentioned we were always planning on moving here anyway. It was other personal things, honestly mostly to do with remanent of childhood and early life experiences. As I let those go the decision becomes clearer. And its mostly practicalities, the new place is better suited to me if I am here full time. I will always have a lot of fondness for my old flat because it was my shelter in a time of significant personal transition.
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#27: August 15, 2021, 12:01:20 PM
Quote
am a huge believer that we should NEVER try to read someone else’s mind or motives.

Another believer here.

If I may add.  My view is that making assumptions about what’s in another’s head can often be about the person doing the assuming. I suggest that those  assumptions do not exist in a vacuum but, rather, they are formed through the lens of your own beliefs, your own longings, your own values, your own attitudes, your own understanding of the world.  When you are aware of this ‘revealing mirror’ aspect of mind reading, I believe it can give you a valuable opportunity to look within and learn more about yourself.

Quote
have read over and over and I also agree that when they truly are trying to reconnect their behaviour will be the indication

Yes!  I think when people are serious about something, they DO, rather than all hat, no cattle. At least, that’s what my life experiences tell me.

Just my view. 😊
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#28: August 15, 2021, 12:10:07 PM
Quote
am a huge believer that we should NEVER try to read someone else’s mind or motives.

Another believer here.

If I may add.  My view is that making assumptions about what’s in another’s head can often be about the person doing the assuming. I suggest that those  assumptions do not exist in a vacuum but, rather, they are formed through the lens of your own beliefs, your own longings, your own values, your own attitudes, your own understanding of the world.  When you are aware of this ‘revealing mirror’ aspect of mind reading, I believe it can give you a valuable opportunity to look within and learn more about yourself.


👆👆👆 This. Bolded emphasis is mine. Acorn and Marvin, valuable words for everyone and applies to everything in life, not just MLC.
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#29: August 15, 2021, 12:17:01 PM
Quote
all hat, no cattle.

Acorn, this might be my favourite new phrase
And such a great mental image  :)  :) :)
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#30: August 15, 2021, 01:09:53 PM
Still on my random thought. In Acorns case, she was there for the actions to take place. Her H KNEW she was there. He had the ... I don't know....advantage (?) Of knowing she was there and while maybe moving forward, had not moved ON.

Might that be a mitigating factor for if the MLCER can find the courage for actions? I have no idea, I simply wonder.

While I believe we are all responsible for ourselves and our own actions, we don't live in individual bubbles and what we do affects others, just as what they do affects us. I don't believe in mind reading, but I do believe in considering the other persons life experience, feelings, and failings if I already know what they are. Knowing these things about people allows us to ask the right question to get past trying to mind read and get a real answer. If you do not know the person, then you cannot ask the right question, assuming you care enough to want to know what they are experiencing in the moment.

I guess I think there is a difference between not trying to mind read what they are thinking, and just plain asking if I don't know. If I don't care, then it just doesn't matter, but that is not how I treat my friends. I'm not sure if I made the difference I see clear or not.

Eta: as an example, if my xh showed up on my doorstep, my first question would be "Why are you here?" If he gave me an answer that was not in keeping with what I already know, I might ask "Is that the only reason?". If one takes things at face value, then they would never ask the second question. Knowing his childhood life experience (you never directly ask for what you want), the second question would come into play, but ONLY  if I cared enough to get a real answer. I would do that for a person I considered friend.
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« Last Edit: August 15, 2021, 01:20:17 PM by OffRoad »
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#31: August 15, 2021, 08:03:32 PM
Thanks OffRoad for explaining your thoughts further (because I think you've explained more of what I was trying to get at). It's all well and good to have lofty expectations of how a 'fixed, healthy, healed MLC/disordered etc' person, that is wanting to reconnect with their LBS will act, but that discounts the courage needed to be able to do that. People are all different. I don't think it's mind reading to expect someone that has abandoned their spouse to have huge guilt and shame and to be fearful of the reception they will get if they approach to see 'where their LBS was at'. There is a difference between 'fixing' problems for these people and 'encouraging' a reconnection. Of course, the LBS would have to want that reconnection. If they don't, that's another story. I'm still not sure if I'm getting my thoughts across clearly. Will go back to lurking I think.
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Re: Love & Hate
#32: August 16, 2021, 01:35:07 AM
It's all well and good to have lofty expectations of how a 'fixed, healthy, healed MLC/disordered etc' person, that is wanting to reconnect with their LBS will act, but that discounts the courage needed to be able to do that. People are all different.

Evermore: each story is different, each of us get to choose how we wish to interact with our MLCers and each of us live with the consequences. There is no “single” way as many here say. I personally think how we choose to interact with our MLCers is much more for us than them. No matter how our lives move forward we need to be able to look back and be ok with our choices.

In my view its not at all a lofty expectation to say that before I engage with my MLCer she has to have some basic footing. I believe MLC is a major psychological event. Without having regained some footing to cope and deal with inner issues the whole idea of trying to “nice” them back, or “encourage” them doesn’t exist in my opinion. So the ability to show by actions that they have some solid degree of realization is a precursor to any kind of healing. Much less reconnection or reconciliation. Because each of these steps requires the previous one.

Quote
I don't think it's mind reading to expect someone that has abandoned their spouse to have huge guilt and shame and to be fearful of the reception they will get if they approach to see 'where their LBS was at'. There is a difference between 'fixing' problems for these people and 'encouraging' a reconnection.

Guilt and shame are two different things. We all have guilt, guilt is a relatively productive emotion. It tells us we have potentially wronged someone, and it drives us to try to correct that wrong. Shame is usually a destructive emotion rooted in lack of self worth. Guilt is “I have done something bad,” shame is “I am bad.” I would say that if an MLCer is starting to have realization they will have a lot of guilt for what they have done. And that would usually lead them to try to remedy that. But I also suspect they have a lot of shame. Usually people with FOO have a lot of internalized shame, whether they know it or not. So it would not be surprising that MLCers may have crippling levels of shame. Unfortunately because shame has to do with self worth external “encouragement” has little impact, it requires fundamental structural changes usually through therapy.

I think any LBS who has interest in any form of reconnection (whether as spouse or friend) is already “encouraging” as much as is useful by allowing any degree of interaction. The degree obviously has to take into account how the MLCer is behaving (abusive or not, etc), how detached the LBS is (are we getting damaged from interaction or not) and finally a clear understanding of the intent. Its so easy for most of us to fall into expectations or the belief that we are somehow “helping the process along” or “encouraging” them. I know I keep catching myself in “expectations” no matter how detached I try to remain.

But I will start adding this disclaimer others use for clarity: this is just my understanding and opinion. As I said at the start each of us have to choose our actions and live with the consequences.
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#33: August 16, 2021, 04:00:17 AM
Quote
I think any LBS who has interest in any form of reconnection (whether as spouse or friend) is already “encouraging” as much as is useful by allowing any degree of interaction. The degree obviously has to take into account how the MLCer is behaving (abusive or not, etc), how detached the LBS is (are we getting damaged from interaction or not) and finally a clear understanding of the intent. Its so easy for most of us to fall into expectations or the belief that we are somehow “helping the process along” or “encouraging” them.

I must admit that this makes a lot of sense to me.
Of course, OR is quite right about how we humans accept and work with the quirks and sensitivities of other humans normally. And others with ours.
But I honestly believe that any kind of reconnection needs the LBS to also honour the reality that their spouses behaviour profoundly altered the landscape of that relationship. That things were done which can’t be undone, things said which can’t be unsaid. No matter how much one might wish it were so. Or indeed how much someone else might wish it were so. One doesn’t have to rant or weep to accept the reality of that imho. And it is reasonable to move forward on the last presenting information available.....which is usually at best that the other person devalued us to the point of not wanting an active reciprocal relationship with us. At worst, well, you know.....

Seems to me that even being open minded enough to allow someone the opportunity to present new information or make any kind of honest attempt to repair any of what they broke is quite a generous gift in itself. Which is why perhaps reconnection is slow and hard in stories here, and why a good dollop of detachment for the LBS matters, bc truthfully a lot of things got broken and changed. I’m not sure how pretending otherwise helps anyone. There just seems to be something inherently upside down about any devalued LBS putting in more effort to that than the person who created the damage in the first place. Jmo.
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« Last Edit: August 16, 2021, 04:01:28 AM by Treasur »
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#34: August 16, 2021, 06:31:41 AM
There just seems to be something inherently upside down about any devalued LBS putting in more effort to that than the person who created the damage in the first place. Jmo.

Marvin, I don't want to hijack your thread, so happy to move this discussion to my own thread if you prefer. I'll be brief, just wanted to touch on this statement.  I agree, it seems backwards for the LBS to need to put in extra effort to appear safe to approach. And it strikes me that it brings the LBS right back to that place just post-BD (and who would want to go back there??) where we're holding a disproportionate amount of responsibility for any relationship.
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#35: August 16, 2021, 06:46:22 AM
Would it make common sense and more in line with reality NOT to read ‘marital relationship’ meaning in amicable/positive interactions with MLCer/WAS?

When I look around me, in real life, most people do not seem enjoy having adversarial relationship with others, especially those who they had a lot to do with, say, married for decades or share kids.   The two parties, more often than not, try to restore some level of civilized relationship so that life is less unpleasant for everyone involved.  To assume from those positive interactions that marital relationship (coupledom) is in the works and in its budding stage is quite the leap and it perhaps reveals LBS’s unrealistic expectations, I think.  Sure, it could develop into something more than two adults just interacting nicely with each other.  But, how often does that happen and how would you know until seen in hindsight?

In my observations, conflating MLCer’s progress in healing with that of marital relationship can, often does, bring LBS another crash into disappointment and sadness.  I suggest that similar unfortunate and unnecessary outcome is quite possible when you (consciously or unconsciously) insert subtext of marital relationship into MLCer’s positive interactions with you.  I think it’s best not to assume or read into these pleasant interactions.  Enjoy the moment and go back to your daily living, I’d say.  Speaking from my personal experience. 


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#36: August 16, 2021, 09:58:24 AM
I do want to clarify, I do not believe an LBS should do anything that is not in keeping with their own mental health and well being. Nor do I believe that you can nice anyone back. I do, however, believe you can indifference them away.

My personal random thought had nothing to do with changing how the LBS feels or where they are. In my case, I already know if my MLCER turned up on my doorstep, I would NOT be asking that second question if I got a known bogus answer to the first, because I do NOT care that much at this point. I could easily indifference him away if he did not have the courage to try to make amends. But since I am where I am, that would be ok with me.

I have read that to many mlcers it made a difference to them what the attitude of the LBS was when they tried to come back. It made me wonder because from my own point of view when I meet someone and they are only politely friendly, it doesn't make me want to pursue a friendship. If an LBS gives that same action/feeling to an MLCER, does that affect the relationship possibilities? If it might, and the LBS might like to try for a different outcome, then how an LBS interacts with their MLCER might matter. You don't have to be extra nice, or not be in keeping with who you are, it could be the difference between making small talk and talking about a trip you just took or showing interest in something they did.

I apologize, I did not mean to hijack. To me, changing a type of interaction doesn't mean you are trying to interpret an mlcer's actions, or mind read or pretzeling yourself to nice them back. It's opening yourself up to a possibility if that is what you want. How the other person reacts is how they react.

Again, I apologize. I'll try to do my wondering elsewhere. I'm a person that looks at all facets of a gem before I decide which one I like. Marvin's comments made me wonder, not in a judgmental way, just in a random way.
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#37: August 16, 2021, 10:06:22 AM
Imho, OR, there is nothing wrong with sharing our individual musings. Or accepting that there may be significant differences in individual situations or choices. If nothing else, reading others’ musings can help us consider where we stand and what is best for us at a given time or indeed how our own POV might have evolved.
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Re: Love & Hate
#38: August 16, 2021, 10:20:51 AM
OffRoad: I welcome any all musing, wondering, thoughts, idea, and views. I do not view any of them as hijack. In fact I think a lot of good thoughts and conversation is happening and it is was perfectly in response to the idea of how far to accommodate an MLCer when they are trying to "visit." I am reading along and pondering my own motives as I read all the various thoughts.
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No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

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#39: August 16, 2021, 10:39:24 AM
Would it make common sense and more in line with reality NOT to read ‘marital relationship’ meaning in amicable/positive interactions with MLCer/WAS?

When I look around me, in real life, most people do not seem enjoy having adversarial relationship with others, especially those who they had a lot to do with, say, married for decades or share kids.   The two parties, more often than not, try to restore some level of civilized relationship so that life is less unpleasant for everyone involved.  To assume from those positive interactions that marital relationship (coupledom) is in the works and in its budding stage is quite the leap and it perhaps reveals LBS’s unrealistic expectations, I think.  Sure, it could develop into something more than two adults just interacting nicely with each other.  But, how often does that happen and how would you know until seen in hindsight?

In my observations, conflating MLCer’s progress in healing with that of marital relationship can, often does, bring LBS another crash into disappointment and sadness.  I suggest that similar unfortunate and unnecessary outcome is quite possible when you (consciously or unconsciously) insert subtext of marital relationship into MLCer’s positive interactions with you.  I think it’s best not to assume or read into these pleasant interactions.  Enjoy the moment and go back to your daily living, I’d say.  Speaking from my personal experience. 


Just my view.

Thank you Acorn for this absolute gem of insight.  As things have been relatively pleasant and quiet with my MLCer,  I have been able to enjoy my time with my kids and the relative stability in my life over the past couple of months.  No expectations regarding my marriage.

Really enjoying this thread Marvin and appreciate everyone's feedback.

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#40: August 16, 2021, 10:49:24 AM
Really thought-provoking discussion, I really appreciate all the insights here. I’ve had a lot of thoughts on detachment versus indifference, and nothing to add to the discussion - it’s all been said so well. Thanks to all who have contributed.
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#41: August 16, 2021, 12:21:18 PM
Also have followed the discussion.  Insightful as always. Thank you all who have posted.
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H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

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#42: August 16, 2021, 01:27:30 PM
I do want to clarify, I do not believe an LBS should do anything that is not in keeping with their own mental health and well being. Nor do I believe that you can nice anyone back. I do, however, believe you can indifference them away.

My personal random thought had nothing to do with changing how the LBS feels or where they are. In my case, I already know if my MLCER turned up on my doorstep, I would NOT be asking that second question if I got a known bogus answer to the first, because I do NOT care that much at this point. I could easily indifference him away if he did not have the courage to try to make amends. But since I am where I am, that would be ok with me.

I have read that to many mlcers it made a difference to them what the attitude of the LBS was when they tried to come back. It made me wonder because from my own point of view when I meet someone and they are only politely friendly, it doesn't make me want to pursue a friendship. If an LBS gives that same action/feeling to an MLCER, does that affect the relationship possibilities? If it might, and the LBS might like to try for a different outcome, then how an LBS interacts with their MLCER might matter. You don't have to be extra nice, or not be in keeping with who you are, it could be the difference between making small talk and talking about a trip you just took or showing interest in something they did.

I apologize, I did not mean to hijack. To me, changing a type of interaction doesn't mean you are trying to interpret an mlcer's actions, or mind read or pretzeling yourself to nice them back. It's opening yourself up to a possibility if that is what you want. How the other person reacts is how they react.

Again, I apologize. I'll try to do my wondering elsewhere. I'm a person that looks at all facets of a gem before I decide which one I like. Marvin's comments made me wonder, not in a judgmental way, just in a random way.

Thank you again OR. These thoughts are where my thoughts were. I’m not judging Marvin’s actions in any way (I’m sorry if you thought that Marvin), just pondering.

We talk over and over about this crisis not being about our marriage and our relationship. It follows then, to me, that encouraging a friendship has nothing to do with ‘fixing the MLCer’ or ‘encouraging the process’. And as OR said, I think there is the possibility of indifferencing a MLCer (or anyone that was tentatively seeking reconnecting with us after a break in a relationship/friendship) away. I think encouraging friendship is a very subtle dance. That I t’s all about the vibe (to get that reference you’ll have to have seen The Castle https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nMuh33BMZYY ).

To me it’s not about ‘who does the most work’ or who ‘puts in the most effort’. Think about when you meet a new person. You’re getting along well, and things are friendly. They suggest they’d like to ‘get together again, let’s have a coffee sometime’. They suggest a day… you say ‘sorry, busy that day’… they suggest another day but again you are busy. Repeat. If I was the person suggesting another catch up it wouldn’t take more than a few ‘sorry I’m busy that day’s with no ‘encouraging’ response (eg ‘busy that day, but what about this day’) before I decided the other person wasn’t interested in furthering/fostering a friendship. That’s why I wondered what Marvin thought it would look like if his W was wanting to reconnect with him (even just as a friend). Because I thought I read that his W came back to the house, made him food he liked, asked for more time spent together and a few other things that to me suggested she was interested in fostering a closer friendship. What you do with that is completely up to you Marvin and I’m in no way judging your actions/motivations. I just wondered what MORE you think she should/could have done to show you she was interested (if indeed she was, I have no way of knowing that) in something more.

If we accept the premise of ‘they come back broken’ and that we shouldn’t expect big apologies and for them to understand the full implications of their actions for some time, then it seems to me these very small overtures of friendship do need to be ‘encouraged’ if that’s what we also want (a friendship that might or might not lead to a reconnection). Nothing to do with ‘fixing them’ or ‘encouraging the process’. And once again I’m sure that, partly because I’m on my phone and reading back over what I write is difficult, but also because I find it difficult these days to express my thoughts in the written word, I will not have been very clear. I’m sorry. I truly am just pondering these things and not judging anyone else’s thoughts/actions.
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« Last Edit: August 16, 2021, 01:32:58 PM by Evermore »
M: 50 (48 @ BD)
H: 53 (51 @ BD)
Married 20yrs, together 23yrs
D: 21 (19 @ BD)
D: 19 (17 @ BD)
'Extra D': 19 (17 @ BD)
BD (that I didn't recognise as such) Easter 2018
BD 9th Sep 2018
OW (45, now 47) - he met her in the pub a week before BD, told me about her a week after BD. Thinks 'their planets have collided' because 'their eyes met across the room' and they had an 'instant connection'. Lives with her. Is building a life with her. Jun 20: H plans to buy a block of land and build a house with her.

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#43: August 16, 2021, 01:58:50 PM
I just wondered what MORE you think she should/could have done to show you she was interested (if indeed she was, I have no way of knowing that) in something more.



This is an interesting discussion. I might posit that Marvin has not much more idea than we do about his wife's intentions or desires unless she explicitly states them. This goes back to the energy-sucking endeavor of trying to read between lines or assign possibly erroneous intent to certain actions.

An MLCer could pop back up and do all kinds of things (and we've seen all kinds of scenarios on the let's be friends to rekindling marital relationship spectrum, from cooking food to fixing around the house to even initiating intimacy) and it probably won't mean anything at all except that it's what they felt like doing in that precise moment. I think those who have reconnected (in whatever way that means to them - but let's face it, we don't have many interested in just a friendship reconnection, most people want their spouse back as a spouse - no judgment there at all, just an observation) have said they saw consistent changed behavior that was evident and required no detective work or what if-ing on the part of the LBS.

Just my two cents.
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Re: Love & Hate
#44: August 16, 2021, 02:00:48 PM
Evermore: problem with trying to “guess” what they mean is where I think a few of us are having issues with. Its trying to read minds. I’ll use your analogy: until and unless they clearly say “I want to be friends” there is not much point in guessing what they mean if they say “let’s have lunch.” Maybe they just want to have lunch. If someone spends all of the day not talking to you, then bring you a coffee, then doesn’t talk to you for a few days what does that mean?

Another fundamental problem I have with the idea is this: this is not a new friend. This person (my W) threw away our lives, devalued our relationship, and in her own words said I was no longer a part of her life. So if she comes back and wants to have dinner together is that supposed to be a “sign” that she didn’t mean it? Her actions have clearly shown she means it.

Finally I think a lot of what you say would play if both parties were functioning rational actors. I don’t believe this is the case with my W. She constantly contradicts herself, will use “we” to refer to her and me (although there has been no “we” for over 4 years), then 1/2 hour later say “we” meaning her and the OM. One day she says she is never going back to her other home ever again, then a week later she says she has bought a ticket to go back. I think you assume that MLCers do anything with empathy or care, or realization that we have feelings, or that they don’t want to hurt us. I think they are so disjointed and in so much pain it’s more akin to being around someone flailing around. We just get bruised.

This is how I fear LBSes get caught in the grinder of the MLC mind, specially when they believe they have an impact on what the MLCer does. There is a great saying I read in the early days that I understood more and more as time went on: don’t try to cushion their fall with your body.
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First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

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#45: August 16, 2021, 05:09:38 PM
Quote
To me, changing a type of interaction doesn't mean you are trying to interpret an mlcer's actions, or mind read or pretzeling yourself to nice them back. It's opening yourself up to a possibility if that is what you want. How the other person reacts is how they react.

I agree with you, OR.

I think any willing and sensible LBS would intuitively adjust the manner of interaction with her spouse as reconnection progresses — if reconnection and its progress are real (objective truth) and not a pigment of LBS’s imagination.  Mirroring helps with making adjustment in how the couple interact, I guess.  LBS mirrors recovering MLCer, and vice versa. 

It is my view that LBS, who is more likely to be ahead of MLCer in regards to healing, can afford to be extra gracious and understanding if and when MLCer makes the effort to reconnect.

Mind you, I don’t believe reconnection will progress much if MLCer is not sufficiently healed to have put away most of his egocentric ways. 

Quote
We talk over and over about this crisis not being about our marriage and our relationship.

I think we can safely add ‘MLC is not about LBS’ to the statement, wouldn’t you agree, Ever?

Another thing we often mention is that MLCer’s hurtful words and crazy/mean behaviour during his crisis are also not about LBS or marriage but they are all about MLCer. 

If MLCer is showing obvious signs that they are still very much in crisis — yet to deal with their issues, barely cognizant of the consequences of their choices, no remorse, etc — and occasionally says and does nice things for LBS, isn’t it still all about MLCer and what he wants and makes him feel better?  Mean or nice, it’s still in the context of ‘it’s not about LBS or M.’

Just my opinion.  :)
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« Last Edit: August 16, 2021, 06:00:18 PM by Acorn »
Feb 2015: BD. 
Dec 2017: Seriously reconnecting

H never left home.

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Love & Hate
#46: August 16, 2021, 07:46:06 PM
Yes, Acorn. I agree (with your entire post). Thanks for everyone’s thoughts.
I’d add to Marvin that my ‘what more would you like to see from her to show you she was interested in reconnection’ was a genuine question, not a judgement. I think you’ve answered my question (you’d like her to say the words?). So all I was trying to contribute was that I could see how ‘saying those words’ might be a scary thing for an MLCer to say.

I should add that my MLCer (if he is) is distressed that he’s hurt and is hurting me, but still believes what he’s doing is ‘for the best’ and doesn’t act particularly ‘crazy’. He done weird things for sure but, as advised I try not to interpret any of that weirdness and what it means. Sorry, more rambling (this is why I generally keep quiet!)
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« Last Edit: August 16, 2021, 07:56:26 PM by Evermore »
M: 50 (48 @ BD)
H: 53 (51 @ BD)
Married 20yrs, together 23yrs
D: 21 (19 @ BD)
D: 19 (17 @ BD)
'Extra D': 19 (17 @ BD)
BD (that I didn't recognise as such) Easter 2018
BD 9th Sep 2018
OW (45, now 47) - he met her in the pub a week before BD, told me about her a week after BD. Thinks 'their planets have collided' because 'their eyes met across the room' and they had an 'instant connection'. Lives with her. Is building a life with her. Jun 20: H plans to buy a block of land and build a house with her.

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Re: Love & Hate
#47: August 17, 2021, 12:09:56 AM
Evermore: to me none of what you are saying sounds rambling at all for what its worth. I know for me sometimes trying to write things out helps me figure out what I am thinking, or how I am feeling. I think this is one of the many great things about a safe forum like this.

I want to kind of join what Acorn said in better answering “what would you want to see.” This is not a checklist that has to be met, rather a kind of “diagnostic criteria” that would show she is starting to find a footing that may help lead her out of her state.

- Ability to recognize that her actions are not getting the results she wants (she is not finding happiness, running away doesn’t solve problems, etc)
- Recognition that she is not happy AND that she can change that not by external actions but by internal healing,
- Showing/behaving in a way that demonstrates she is capable of true empathy for others, by doing things that are truly for someone else WITHOUT it reflecting somehow back on her own needs (for example hey I am being nice by doing xyz, which means I AM a good person. This reflects back on her).
- Being able to internally confront the fact that her actions have caused damage and pain, to her and others. This is not punitive, rather an important indication that she is once again starting to connect to reality (rather than fantasy/escape), that she is starting to put action and consequences back together (we all need this to self correct). I think this is why a genuine apology (better in action than words) is such an important gatekeeper to trying to restore any relationship. Its as much for the one offering the apology as it is for the person hearing it.

There is more but this is a good start. And I just want to note none of these include any requirement that I (the LBS) has. I think this would only indicate that there a CHANCE to BEGIN a long process of fixing a relationship (friendship or otherwise). There are many many steps and there is no guarantee of success.
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BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

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#48: August 17, 2021, 10:28:54 AM
I love the read guys. I would like to ask if any of this can take place while the OM/OW is still in the picture ? I personally don't believe so but I have read that sometimes it happens that way.
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O/M Discovered Nov-18

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#49: August 17, 2021, 11:10:00 AM
F5, great question and I wonder this too. I think it’s probably nuanced, as are many things to do with connection or reconnection. As un-subtle as MLC is, healthy human relationships can contain some shading and subtlety that makes all the difference.

The biggest issue with connecting and determining whether a real, reciprocal relationship can exist has to do with the fact that OP is a living, breathing reminder of the boundaries and trust that were broken by the MLCer. If the trust is rebuilt, if new boundaries are defined and reinforced in a way that everyone agrees to… there can be a rebuilt relationship in the continued presence of the OP. I think it’s exceedingly rare, though, that everyone can get past the damage caused by crisis and rebuild individually, AND still find that they all want to, and are able to, be in one another’s lives in a healthy way.

Just my opinion… as one person who is potentially trying to be one of those rare cases.
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#50: August 17, 2021, 11:12:04 AM
I was just reading an old thread yesterday from shock sis found under shockandawe thread. What a great insight into a MLC’r who came out. If anyone hasn’t read ( newbies like me)

She said if her H would not have moved on she would have reached out to reconcile. Also, that he is unhappy and they are still in contact. So much information to take in!

https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11177.0
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« Last Edit: August 17, 2021, 11:14:05 AM by Tornup »
H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

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Re: Love & Hate
#51: August 17, 2021, 01:02:42 PM
I love the read guys. I would like to ask if any of this can take place while the OM/OW is still in the picture ? I personally don't believe so but I have read that sometimes it happens that way.

Do you mean from the MLCer or the LBSes view? From the LBS view there are probably as many answers as there are LBSers.

In my opinion the OM/OW is just a symptom, an object, and has nothing to do with any of this. As such they are probably another diagnostic. I would imagine that once the MLCer starts connecting to internal reality all of a sudden the appeal would diminish. Now they may still stay around the OM/OW because they can’t admit the scope of the error, or they may be afraid of being alone, or maybe they feel guilty for having gotten the OM/OW involved. But as long as they are around I would think they are nowhere near a functioning adult. So does it matter to us? Do we really want a dysfunctional unavailable person in our lives? And if we do don’t we need to look internally to see why?

I was just reading an old thread yesterday from shock sis found under shockandawe thread. What a great insight into a MLC’r who came out. If anyone hasn’t read ( newbies like me)

She said if her H would not have moved on she would have reached out to reconcile. Also, that he is unhappy and they are still in contact. So much information to take in!

https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11177.0

Please keep in mind this is one example, and isn’t a guidebook. Just because an MLCer starts to “recover” doesn’t mean they want to reconcile. The state of the relationship before acute MLC may have been such that neither party may want to come back. Or they may have changed too much,
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First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

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#52: August 17, 2021, 01:05:49 PM
Quote
Please keep in mind this is one example, and isn’t a guidebook. Just because an MLCer starts to “recover” doesn’t mean they want to reconcile. The state of the relationship before acute MLC may have been such that neither party may want to come back. Or they may have changed too much

Absolutely, pretty much on each of us. Everyone and their situation is unique, but still you read and take what you can. What you can relate to you.
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H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

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Re: Love & Hate
#53: August 17, 2021, 01:58:57 PM
Please keep in mind this is one example, and isn’t a guidebook. Just because an MLCer starts to “recover” doesn’t mean they want to reconcile. The state of the relationship before acute MLC may have been such that neither party may want to come back. Or they may have changed too much,

Sage observation, Marvin.

I suggest it is good to be aware that reading an anecdote can send LBS down the rabbit hole of projecting your MLCer on another person’s narrative.  That, I think, is a more insidious form of mind reading. 

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Re: Love & Hate
#54: August 17, 2021, 02:30:54 PM
Do we really want a dysfunctional unavailable person in our lives? NOPE And if we do don’t we need to look internally to see why? YUP


I agree the AP is a symptom and one indicator that the person in crisis is meeting themselves internally and coming to terms with their issues is that the AP loses their appeal.

In most cases, the AP also willingly (and sometimes gleefully) participates in hurting or trying to hurt the LBS (via threats, psychological warfare, financial abuse, etc).  So the MLCer still being in a relationship of any form with a person who sought to hurt the LBS would to me be a pretty big indicator that the MLCer is still pretty dysfunctional/lacking remorse or empathy.

I know for myself personally, just due to the sheer enormity of what has already happened, I currently don't believe I could ever speak to my former H again without a mental health professional being present.  And I'm not quite sure what he could do on his own (without the help of a mental health professional) to convince me that he can be trusted enough to speak to without a professional present.

Please keep in mind this is one example, and isn’t a guidebook. Just because an MLCer starts to “recover” doesn’t mean they want to reconcile. The state of the relationship before acute MLC may have been such that neither party may want to come back. Or they may have changed too much,

Sage observation, Marvin.

I suggest it is good to be aware that reading an anecdote can send LBS down the rabbit hole of projecting your MLCer on another person’s narrative.  That, I think, is a more insidious form of mind reading. 



Agree wholeheartedly with this.  I know we all look for stories, especially early on.  It's important to separate "hope" based on one anecdote from "interpretation of MLC/predictions for me/my spouse" based on one anecdote, or even a few anecdotes.  I do recall myself getting very excited to see denjef posting her experiences with her own MLC and asking her questions and spending some time comparing my situation to her and her H.  That was 4.5 years ago and, predictably (in hindsight) nothing has changed.
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Re: Love & Hate
#55: August 25, 2021, 04:37:18 AM
As always thank you all for the thoughts and insights. I always read and have to think about things some more.

Not much is going on, but I have been going through a little "mini wave" of my own recently. Not sure what has brought this on, maybe its the moving of flats, maybe its the fact that two major BD related events happened in August, maybe its just life. But I have been going through a very small wave of recurrence of the feeling of rejection, of feeling discarded, of feeling sad and lonely. And it all centers around remembering the various ways my W devalued, attacked, rejected and rewrote our history to make me seem like a "mistake" in her life.

Let me make it clear, I am not intellectually nor emotionally buying into that narrative (I was not quite buying it in the early days, I sure am not at the 4.5 year mark). But as others have also said it doesn't matter, because we still get deeply hurt (or even traumatized) by the words and actions of someone we trusted so much and allowed so deeply into our heart and our trust. So this mini wave is a recurrence of those feelings. It will pass and its barely a ripple (compared to the tidal waves that use to pin me to the bottom of the ocean).

The interesting thing I am noticing is that now I absolutely DO NOT care about the why, how, understanding, analyzing, reading minds, trying to be "understanding" etc. It doesn't mean I do not have empathy for my W, that I do not understand how much pain she is in. I also have no anger (never did), no resentment and no ill will. But I am finding that I am firmly at the "doesn't matter why, it was done and it can not be undone and its all on her" phase.

I partly wanted to share and journal, and partly I wanted to say this to all newbies: in NO WAY discount how you feel, and it doesn't matter if you are anywhere from absolute rage and anger to wanting to be completely "understanding," doesn't matter if you are standing or not. I would suggest start realizing that your MLCer OWNS all of their actions and words, regardless of why. You can be kind and gentle yet absolutely hold that line. They are the ones who blew things up, they are the ones who hurt you. And they own ALL of it.

I'll repeat a line I have said before: if you get hit by a car and are hurt badly the motivations of the driver in no way alters the pain and hurt and the outcome.

edit: forgot to add the musical accompaniment a-la Nas, a rare cut. Enjoy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hf7q1rnaSjo&t=0s
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« Last Edit: August 25, 2021, 04:45:50 AM by marvin4242 »
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

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Re: Love & Hate
#56: August 25, 2021, 07:09:16 PM
The interesting thing I am noticing is that now I absolutely DO NOT care about the why, how, understanding, analyzing, reading minds, trying to be "understanding" etc. It doesn't mean I do not have empathy for my W, that I do not understand how much pain she is in. I also have no anger (never did), no resentment and no ill will. But I am finding that I am firmly at the "doesn't matter why, it was done and it can not be undone and its all on her" phase.
I'm really not much of a ruminator these days, either, but I still like to know why, even if why was he was an entitled jerk. I came from a family that was pretty matter of fact. We didn't hide behind niceties we did not mean and we meant what we said. I learned political correctness outside of my home. I had zero idea that there were people that were supposed to be your friends who would lie to you. Really. Until I was 32. Talk about naive. So learning why someone does something, so I can recognize it and run when I see it the next time was pretty valuable for me. Even though I have mostly reached "Meh.", I still find why it happened to be valuable as a lesson, so I guess I can't say "It doesn't matter why." It does. Intent matters to me, and that is likely because I have children with my xh and I do worry that if he's having a mental break, are they safe? I have given them ideas of what to do should they ever feel unsafe.

Quote
I'll repeat a line I have said before: if you get hit by a car and are hurt badly the motivations of the driver in no way alters the pain and hurt and the outcome.
And yet for myself, the motivations do matter mentally. If I get hit by a car because the brakes gave out through no fault of the driver, I will still be as physically hurt as if the driver steered straight for me and ran me down. But I would not have any anger or rancor towards the driver with the faulty brakes, nor try to seek restitution for my injuries, where I likely would for someone who purposefully ran me down. Intent matters for some of us. Am I still physically harmed? Sure. But would I want the person with bad brakes in jail? No, because they didn't mean to hurt anyone. Do I want the person who purposely ran me down in jail. Yes, because they would have no problem with doing that to anyone else. And oddly enough, I don't only care about me, I care about others, so it matters to me. See above, are my kids safe when they are with him?

I think you can care about the reasons why without obsessing over the reasons why, and still move forward. You don't have to, of course, but you can. JMO.
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#57: August 28, 2021, 07:46:28 AM
Hey Marvin, I hope your little ripple is no more…

Quote
The interesting thing I am noticing is that now I absolutely DO NOT care about the why, how, understanding, analyzing, reading minds, trying to be "understanding" etc. It doesn't mean I do not have empathy for my W, that I do not understand how much pain she is in. I also have no anger (never did), no resentment and no ill will. But I am finding that I am firmly at the "doesn't matter why, it was done and it can not be undone and its all on her" phase.

In the context of MLC and MLCer, I would like think that the above quote describes where LBS eventually needs to get to — acceptance of reality, and a more stable state of detachment.

I think there comes a time when LBS no longer cares or wants to invest any more emotional energy into the whys, hows, etc.  Not because you don’t care about MLCer, but because you realize it is a pointless endeavour, that you can’t change the past, and that all the analyzing does is to keep your eyes on MLCer. 

It’s understandable that LBS initially invests a lot of time and effort in finding out the whys and hows.  A lot of us on HS find a reasonable ‘diagnosis’ for what we have been observing in our spouses — namely, MLC — and we read, read and read some more about it.  But then, you eventually come to the realization that life is beckoning, kids are longing for security and stability (and so are you), and discover that there is a lot more to life than becoming a Rhodes scholar of your favourite MLC school of thought.  That, I’ll venture a guess, is a sort of turning point at which LBS stops obsessing about MLC and MLCer, and start to live each day better and better.  JMHO.

All the best!
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Re: Love & Hate
#58: September 29, 2021, 09:52:25 AM
As always thanks everyone for the thoughts and experiences.

Nothing much has changed since last update. I have finally managed to be back in my own house (hooray!). Wife has left the country for now, I am back in town, and its good to be home. Well home but with new decorative and other touches. Apparently my wife and I are now "living" in parallel realities in the same house without actually occupying same space. Kind of like a bad science fiction story. I will admit its nice to enjoy the changes without having done any work!

We still text and talk on a regular basis, but its mostly about whatever she is needing or interested in (no surprise). What is interesting to see is how much she swings from being almost ok to being incredibly anxious and almost manic. The only thought that comes to my mind is THANKFULLY I am not around her. I do not know how those of you who stay around and/or live with your MLCers do it. I mean I am pretty removed, but after listening to someone in high stress for 30 minutes it just leaks into your entire body.

So another non update update. Only that after reading Treasur's latest posts its interesting how I realized that I have been seeing tiny glimpses of the person she was. And like she said its good to get affirmation that it wasn't all in my head. But I also hold absolutely firmly that that person is GONE, and there is no waiting around for a return. We can only move forward, we can choose to do it facing front or being dragged backwards.

This song has been my psychological companion for a couple of weeks now, so I'll share it here (again royalties are paid to Nas):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dl7mc6GaE2g
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#59: September 29, 2021, 02:01:14 PM
Apparently my wife and I are now "living" in parallel realities in the same house without actually occupying same space.

Awesome - I'll be submitting this script to the old/new Doctor Who show runner so keep an eye out for a familiar feeling episode.  ;)

its good to get affirmation that it wasn't all in my head. But I also hold absolutely firmly that that person is GONE, and there is no waiting around for a return. We can only move forward, we can choose to do it facing front or being dragged backwards.


As one of the "vanisher" clan, I used to envy this kind of affirmation in my early days. For newbies reading, THIS is definitely where detachment becomes so crucial, IMO. 


 I mean I am pretty removed, but after listening to someone in high stress for 30 minutes it just leaks into your entire body.


I have thoughts on this that are very connected to my recent posts, but I'm having trouble expressing myself so I might take it to my own thread eventually. I started to do pretty much a deep dive on the lyrical interpretation of the song you linked and I was like, “Whoa, that got real deep and dark real quick, I can’t post this,” LOL  ;D ;D ;D
In time it all falls down…well, I’ll be musing on that for the foreseeable future.
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#60: September 29, 2021, 04:38:10 PM
Funnily enough, Nas, I had exactly the same thought  :)

For me, with a pretty silent vanisher, this is the song that captures how It felt to me https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-2U0Ivkn2Ds
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Re: Love & Hate
#61: September 29, 2021, 06:39:49 PM
I started to do pretty much a deep dive on the lyrical interpretation of the song you linked and I was like, “Whoa, that got real deep and dark real quick, I can’t post this,” LOL  ;D ;D ;D
In time it all falls down…well, I’ll be musing on that for the foreseeable future.

Ah its interesting, I don't see the song/lyrics as dark at all. I think the part you quoted refers to this:

We build ourselves a grand illusion

I think the song/lyrics are about how we create our own reality, our vision of ourselves, of our lives. To me it is about how we can not control what happens but we can control our experience of what happens. And that sometimes we create a "version" of ourselves that is more meant to obfuscate our real selves and how we feel/exist than reflects us. I would say that is the "hell we create" but we can just as easily make our own paradise as well as the lyric says. I think this applies to MLCers and to LBSes just as well.

I hear it more as wisdom of understanding the nature of who we are and how we can find peace/contentment.
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#62: September 29, 2021, 07:02:54 PM
Well THAT was a tear jerker...
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Re: Love & Hate
#63: September 29, 2021, 07:11:57 PM
Well THAT was a tear jerker...

Sorry JB it is really from a very different perspective, from another place and in way was meant to be a downer. My bad. I am going to go edit that out.

Err never mind, can't.
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#64: September 30, 2021, 07:06:56 AM
I think that song (like all songs, really) has now become a perfect example of "we see things through different lenses at different times."
I'll have to listen to it periodically and see how it changes for me, lol.
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#65: September 30, 2021, 07:22:58 AM
Not at all, I just envisioned myself growing old with W, and getting to the situation in the video (although i hadn't thought of it quite that way). It was a good moment to grieve.

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Re: Love & Hate
#66: October 03, 2021, 07:07:33 AM
So I wanted to share a moment a lot of you will definitely understand. Last night there was a charged conversation with my GF. It was something I would say is typical in good relationships, but not easy. I think it triggered an issue she is aware of and working on for herself, but last night it led to a difficult few hours, lots of emotions on all sides. We did get through it, and in fact had a very good conversation this morning. To me these kinds of adult self aware challenges are an important part of a healthy relationship and in fact leads to more intimacy and caring if handled right.

The part that is interesting is how much I was shaken to the core last night. I do realize intellectually how much this entire being suddenly devalued and rejected by someone who was my best friend and knew me best has hurt and damaged me in the early days. I have worked on this a lot, it has led to a lot of new understanding, better boundaries and honestly does not operate day to day. But having that bell "rung" exposed how deep that really went, how much it will probably always be with me. And it reminded me how deeply disorienting and painful it was and can be.

I say this not as insight, but affirmation. I say this both for me to acknowledge, for newbies to realizes that its not just them, and for all the vets that understand. To be clear this is NOT to say that it is something that will be damaging or crippling forever. Rather it is more to acknowledge what we experience in our sudden t devaluation (not to mention other damage caused by the lack of empathy and rage) is a BIG BIG event and a BIG deal. Yes we all know it. But maybe even almost 5 years out the depth and breadth of it can catch us (or me) off guard.

edit: the contextual song for the day....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2iGtRseS7E
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« Last Edit: October 03, 2021, 07:14:51 AM by marvin4242 »
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
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BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

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#67: October 03, 2021, 07:27:50 AM
Marvin-
Isn’t that the truth. We can’t escape our past or the affects from it. We move forward and heal, but the scars remain and who knows what will cause those scars to open up to some degree again. I always hope that with each trigger we work through more and more of the damage. Making the triggers less or at least easier to navigate. I think that is relatable to all tragedy in life and MLC is a tragedy. Your post reminds me of just how much is still ahead. Sometimes being reminded of that helps prepare you to handle those triggers to come. What I most got from your post is that it ended up as a positive to deepen your connection. That is the best possible solution we can hope for.
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2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
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https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

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#68: October 03, 2021, 07:43:49 AM
Quote
To me these kinds of adult self aware challenges are an important part of a healthy relationship and in fact leads to more intimacy and caring if handled right.

Conflict, handled "correctly" can and should be a positive thing. A place to grow in our understanding of one another.

Thank you for sharing marvin. I am always a bit leary of some posters who swear that they are completely over it and much much happier than they ever were in their marriages.

 
Quote
Rather it is more to acknowledge what we experience in our sudden t devaluation (not to mention other damage caused by the lack of empathy and rage) is a BIG BIG event and a BIG deal. Yes we all know it. But maybe even almost 5 years out the depth and breadth of it can catch us (or me) off guard.

A small example of how things in our lives continue to have an impact. When I was a child, my mother would wash out the empty mustard and peanut butter "glasses"...they had red and black suits from cards on them. If I dropped one and it broke, my mother (in my mind anyway) would yell at me.  I am 66 years old and the sound of glass breaking still creates immediate "fear".

How much more intense are the memories from what happened in our relationships?

Wishing you and GF a good day and very much appreciating your sharing this for others to understand when these feelings happen in their lives and in their new relationships.
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"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

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#69: October 03, 2021, 10:54:06 AM
Thank you, Marvin.
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#70: October 03, 2021, 11:03:45 AM
Those dang blips of reminders in emotional form..  Can’t remember who said ‘I think, therefore I am.’  I would change that to ‘I feel, therefore I am.’

I’m confident that your experience was just a blip, albeit a bright one. Having followed your thread, It’s not like those moments are entrenched in your life and pain is chronic.  I’m thankful for that on your behalf.

May those blips become once a century events. 
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Re: Love & Hate
#71: October 03, 2021, 11:14:27 AM
Xyzcf: thanks for sharing that, it is such a great example of how we are shaped by things, specially when we are very young.

JB: we are in different point of time in the same journey. I am not saying our stories will go the same way, I mean in what we were hit with. Hang in there.

Acorn: thanks for the thoughts. I actually really find moments like that gifts. Because when I don't avoid what is going on it shows me something important that I need to attend to. If I have the energy I want to "lean into" these parts, because it is where I have work left to do, FOR ME. There is a great parable about becoming wise by learning from unwise people, simply don't do what they do. So if MLC is the end results of years/decades of papering over issues the least I can take away from this experience is to examine myself and my issues even more deeply, own them and look for peace and happiness even more NOT in others, but in my own world view and my own frame of reference.

I am not sure what it would mean if someone has these "moments" rarely.
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Re: Love & Hate
#72: October 16, 2021, 07:40:19 AM
Time for another non update and more musings/observations.

The non update: my wife is still in a strange "duality" universe. She talks about "us" and "we," says things like "I am not staying around here" meaning where she is now with OM, then talks about doing work on an uninhabitable house she has been trying to live in for 4 years one week later. Maybe this will be her new "normal" state. She is still anxious, has trouble remembering things, but on a scale of 1 to 10 (where is the "old normal" and 10 is the worst since the fracture) she is probably a 5. For her sake I hope that she manages to at least stay here. She can smile and laugh sometimes, but I can see the stress, anxiety and depression are all still there.

The amusing part of the update is this: since I came back home I wanted to return one of the rugs she removed in her "redecorations" while she was here just for my own sake. I can not find that rug. Mind you this is a rather large rug. I have searched the entire house. I have accounted for all the other rug rearrangements. But this one rug has simple vanished. Why? Who can say....

The observation section of this post: Its nice to be back home, its a beautiful fall. So all is well. But lately I have been noticing another element of this journey that I hadn't fully looked at. I want to preface what I am about to say with the following caveats. First this is about how I view things, and I am in no WAY implying others are doing this. Second I say this with full understanding that my experience with MLC has been MUCH MUCH less traumatic and painful than most. So this is the context of what I am about to say.

I am noticing a constant emotional undertone in how I have viewed what happened with my W and I, a narrative that seems to hide underneath all of my other emotions. And it is one in which I view myself as a victim. I will pause here to say this is NOT the same as being the victim of all the damage and trauma that a lot of LBSes have experienced. This is more of a "story" version in which I am the victim of a loss that I didn't "deserve." It is akin to the bad movie version where someone is a helpless victim, or that there is a "romantic" story in which a grand "love" is torn apart by circumstance or tragedy. To me this narrative comes from a more childlike view of relationships, from a simplistic Disney like version of what life is really like. And I think it is counter productive.

What is interesting is that I am generally not at all a black/white person, or someone who believes in simplistic view of things. I will admit I do not believe in "soul mates," I do not believe in a magical definition of "love." Love is something that is chosen daily, that is attended to, and grown by effort and commitment among people. The only exception in my view is that of the love of parent for child, that is the one true "unconditional" love that should exist. But among adults, friendship or romantic, love is a choice. And it is free from dependency, or stories of "you complete me" or need. So obviously somewhere in me is an emotional belief, a "memory", or more accurately a child who has a need that is in total contradiction with who I am today.

For me this hidden thread is counter productive, it may even be keeping me stuck, and is not rooted in healthy adult "present" existence. The positive part of this experience for me has been the where I have been forced to understand and grow myself in order to move on and thrive. And it seems there are still things to find and work on almost five years out.
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#73: October 16, 2021, 08:33:15 AM
This resonates loudly, for me and I'm sure many others.
Love is a choice, and for whatever his reasons, he chose not to love me. I can only speak for me, but it's very clear that when he made his choice clear, my response to it was very much wrapped up in, as you say, the only unconditional love, that for me never existed.

I don't want to hijack but it's funny because I had started to write a post on my thread about "choosing" and various ways I was chosen or not chosen in life and the ways that has shaped me - more to come on that (maybe). But when you say love is a choice, I wholeheartedly agree. (I initially wrote this as a universal we/you, but changed it to first person because there's so many variables to every story and I don't want to speak for anyone but myself): and when the person I came to see as a stable, safe constant stopped choosing me (even if the reasons for that were not about me), it was core shaking and old wounds, even though I thought they'd already been addressed, were awakened and need to be readdressed. It's like a chain reaction - at least for me it was. I'll leave it there before this becomes a true hijack.
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Re: Love & Hate
#74: October 16, 2021, 09:23:45 AM
Nas its not a hijack at all, it actually kind of goes back to my previous update about being shaken to the core by an argument. I think all these things are deeply interrelated. Until we stop and examine ourselves, our motives, what are we looking for and why, we tend to just go on "auto pilot" and are shaped by the cultural and narrative "stories" and that tends to lead us into blind unexamined choices and behaviours. And honestly its like walking around a room full of trap doors with our eyes closed, we just believe its all somehow "magic."
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#75: October 17, 2021, 04:05:59 PM
This is an interesting top.  The idea of marriage vows and choosing your spouse everyday. 

Isn't that what the vows were for.  Never do the vows say things like: now you have found your true love, all is well, congratulations.  It says the opposite...for better, for worse...for richer, for poorer...in sickness, in health.  The vows in themselves warn of the ups and downs.  I think it is natural to feel some victimhood as the one that held up their side of the vows while being blamed, cheated on, abandoned.

How different the LBS is from the MLCr in the way we CHOSE to treat the other.  The LBS choosing to GAL and releasing the MLCr from the marital contract (which in some ways is choosing to love).  It is a mixed up thing.

Marvin, you are still choosing, in your way, to show love and respect for your wife.  You are very kind and flexible with her.

If there was no "victimhood" in the breaking of the vows...what is left of marriage?  It might be a pointless institution or one in which the vows speak of union until one feels over it in anyway?
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Re: Love & Hate
#76: October 18, 2021, 08:45:40 AM
If there was no "victimhood" in the breaking of the vows...what is left of marriage?  It might be a pointless institution or one in which the vows speak of union until one feels over it in anyway?

What "marriage" as in institution means is a varied and personal definition and a giant topic onto itself. I am going to leave that one for another day.

To me the idea of "victimhood" is different than the idea that something happened to us. That is an acknowledgment of a reality. We were blindsided, we were lied to, our lives were blown up. There was damage (which may have been a lot depending on details), and that we were usually not a cause of it and we definitely did not deserve it. But none of this in any way leads to feeling and acting like a "victim." This is a broader view in life. Bad things happen in life, there is no Disney guarantee of flowers, birds and guaranteed joy. Loss, pain and unexpected damage is unfortunately a part of life. How we experience this, our expectations, and how we view ourselves will significantly matter in how it impact us going forward.

I was pondering the subtler ways this work. The big obvious ways I believe most of us experienced in the early days. Its part of the stages of grieving. The "why me," "I don't deserve this," "I was a good H/W" etc. Hopefully eventually we move past that (although I fear some never do, I have seen that dynamic played out a few times). I think a lot of heal and move forward from the early days, and our lives improve. I was noticing a much subtler undertone that still exists for me. It is hiding in the shadows and coloring my view of this terrible experience. And for me it is slightly keeping me stuck. Because a victim is someone who has no control or agency in the matter, and feeling like a victim tends to keep us in that state of mind. If I can fix something then I am no longer a victim of that thing.
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Love & Hate
#77: October 18, 2021, 10:59:04 AM
Quote
I think a lot of heal and move forward from the early days, and our lives improve. I was noticing a much subtler undertone that still exists for me. It is hiding in the shadows and coloring my view of this terrible experience. And for me it is slightly keeping me stuck. Because a victim is someone who has no control or agency in the matter, and feeling like a victim tends to keep us in that state of mind. If I can fix something then I am no longer a victim of that thing.

I view this as a sign of honesty and courage to look within.  You call it ‘slightly stuck’ but I humbly call it self awareness that leads to more growth and wisdom. 

Quote
I was pondering the subtler ways this work. The big obvious ways I believe most of us experienced in the early days. Its part of the stages of grieving. The "why me," "I don't deserve this," "I was a good H/W" etc. Hopefully eventually we move past that (although I fear some never do, I have seen that dynamic played out a few times).

I talked to one such person last weekend.  Her XH left her nearly 15 years ago (she told me how many years, months and days…)  and remarried but she hasn’t really moved on from the earlier stages of grief.  It’s such a sad place to be in.  While listening to her, I wondered where the definition of ‘normal’ grieving stops and ‘delusion’ kicks in.

Related to one of your recent posts:

The ‘what used be between us — the Disney version’ narrative can often be part of defence mechanism in the immediate aftermath of BD.  Well, it was for me, anyway.  ::)

In my observations, photoshopping one’s marriage does seem to cease after a while as LBS gets over the shock of BD and eventually comes to terms with the reality of their past and current circumstances.  I guess LBS need to get out of that rabbit hole of airbrushing their marriage if they were to move forward in a meaningful way, rather than just existing. 

I interact with a few chronically sad people in my RL who are seemingly stuck in one of the early stages of grief (often ‘shock and denial’) even many years after separation/death of their spouse.  One of the traits common among them is that they have sanitized and idealized ‘how it used to be’ and continue to pine for the good old days.  They tell me they do have moments of happiness and enjoy some experiences but inevitably drift back to their default setting, ‘sad.’  They seem to have been caught in that ‘sad’ loop and have plenty of justifications why they should remain there.  That stasis has become a part of their identity that they wear on their sleeves.  Sigh…


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#78: October 18, 2021, 12:39:01 PM
Quote
One of the traits common among them is that they have sanitized and idealized ‘how it used to be’ and continue to pine for the good old days.  They tell me they do have moments of happiness and enjoy some experiences but inevitably drift back to their default setting, ‘sad.’  They seem to have been caught in that ‘sad’ loop and have plenty of justifications why they should remain there
This is so true. When people pass we do seem to  idolize. In the terms of death in many ways that is nice. Whats the point of remembering the bad once that person is gone, specially now that it can’t be worked through with that person no longer here.

Like you said the issue is if you can’t move on. Remaining stuck. If using it to move on, great!! Using it to think there is no one better and missing out on new live coming into your life. Well, that is tragic isn't it?
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Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

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#79: October 18, 2021, 03:19:56 PM
So then does "victimhood" equate to "helplessness"? Or "Learned Helplessness"? (Seriously, I don't get why "victim" has become a bad word.)

IMO, each of us WAS a victim (a person harmed, injured, or killed as a result of a crime, accident, or other event or action. or a person who is tricked or duped). What happened is now a part of our story. What we DO with what happens to us is the important part. Being a little "stuck" does not equate to "victimhood" (if I understand that correctly)  unless you are using it as an excuse for something, anything. But having been a victim can be a valid REASON to get a little stuck from time to time. Recognizing that reason (not wallowing in it) gives us the chance to unstick ourselves.

I was noticing a much subtler undertone that still exists for me. It is hiding in the shadows and coloring my view of this terrible experience. And for me it is slightly keeping me stuck. Because a victim is someone who has no control or agency in the matter, and feeling like a victim tends to keep us in that state of mind. If I can fix something then I am no longer a victim of that thing.
Please help me to understand, Marvin. In the quote, I can see there is something in your mind space that you believe is coloring your view  of the experience where you actually were a victim of someone else's actions, but you also believe that if you can "fix something" then you are no longer a victim. What made you a victim of someone else's choices does not cease to exist, ever. In my mind, you will always have had been victimized, and that experience will color your views, but it does not have to be in a negative way.  I use victim as a temporary state. It happened. You don't have to exorcise that it happened to make it just another thing that happened in your life and keep moving forward.  It becomes a kind of "Huh. What did I learn from all of that?" I sometimes wonder if what really kept me stuck at first was my own shock, not that someone would do this to me, but that I did not see it coming and thought I was somehow immune to being betrayed because I would not do such a thing. That bad things happen to other people, not me because I did everything "right" (or as right as I could based on what had been learned over the years). Learning that others don't always say what they mean or mean what they say was rather a shocking realization.

What is it that you think you need to fix? Do you know? How would that erase being a victim, or does it need to?


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Re: Love & Hate
#80: October 18, 2021, 04:03:51 PM
OR honestly when I read your post I do not see much if anything of what I was saying in there. I think you may be seeing it through a particular lens (that is neither better nor worse, just different). I'll try to explain the parts I understand.

I said feeling of victimhood can lead to being stuck. Not the other way around. You said that being "stuck" does not equate to victimhood, which is the inversion of my statement. And even if a statement is true the inverse is not necessarily true (all oranges are round doesn't lead to everything round is an orange).

I tend to not use judgement when I am trying to understand things. The word "victim" or "victimhood" is neither bad nor good. It just is a particular emotional/referential state. There is a big difference between being the "victim" of something, and being in a state of "victimhood." This is another false equivalence.

I do not agree with your statement that I was ever the victim of something, nor was I victimized. In my worldview there was a rather negative set of events that occurred in my life. They were the direct consequence of a set of choices I made, a set of events that happened most likely very early in my wife's past, a set of choices she made (I would offer her choices on how to cope were counter productive). What happened happened. That was kind of the entire point of my post. That I can view myself as a victim, which simply isn't true. Something bad happened. I was not a "victim" rather it was something that deeply impacted my life. There was no accident really, just a long line that lead to that moment in my wife's life. And her life and mine met and were joined, so it also happened to me. And part of the reason that we joined our lives is because due to earlier experiences in my life I had been "thought" to ignore certain character traits (or to make excuses for them) that may have kept me from getting too close to her if I was a "different" person.  It makes perfect sense if one accepts that none of this has to do with us, our relationship or our actions (if it truly is a personal psychological crises of one person which impacts a lot of other people).

What I am realizing (nothing to fix, just observing) is that somewhere in my psyche was buried beliefs that are not real for me. There is no "happily ever after," there is no "I am guaranteed that everything will work out." And I know from experience and knowledge that bad things happen to good people, every single day. I am not naive, I am not a child, at my best I do not rely on others to take care of me, to make me happy, to "complete" me. So this diffuse hidden belief that I was the "victim" of something is not congruent to who I am and how I live my life.

It was one of the many things lurking in the background from things I was told by my parents, by culture, and essentially various lies we are told to make us "feel better." But in the end they really do not.
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Re: Love & Hate
#81: October 18, 2021, 05:31:28 PM
Something bad happened. I was not a "victim" rather it was something that deeply impacted my life. There was no accident really, just a long line that lead to that moment in my wife's life. And her life and mine met and were joined, so it also happened to me. And part of the reason that we joined our lives is because due to earlier experiences in my life I had been "thought" to ignore certain character traits (or to make excuses for them) that may have kept me from getting too close to her if I was a "different" person.

This goes along with some stuff I've been working out on my thread (well, in my life, but sharing on my thread). Something I find myself saying a lot these days is, "I was there too." A lot of things play into what brought us, me and my former H, together. It wasn't just boy meets girl, boy marries girl, boy abuses, lies, cheats, steals and runs off. There's so much more that needed to be examined in order for me to even know where to start to not just heal, but dig into the unhealthy/untrue deep-rooted thoughts and patterns that led me to him in the first place - and will lead to me having a much healthier remainder of my existence. A lot of bad $h!te went down, and I did my best with what I knew at the time, but everything that happened happened - and I was there too.

Semantics aside, what I read in your post is that nothing in life is actually guaranteed, but there's a lot of things in life that we expect to be guaranteed - there's like an unspoken promise we feel has been made and when that promise is broken, it feels like we've been blindsided. Setting aside all of my former H's other misdeeds, when I got married I went into it with this idea that it's forever and when it failed to be, I felt duped and completely shattered.

Anyway, it reminds me of the song from Avenue Q, Only For Now: "Everything in life is only for now" - which for someone (like me) who deeply craves stability, is a truly terrifying concept. But since it's reality, I guess I'll eventually need to come to terms with it somehow.  :(
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#82: October 18, 2021, 10:36:16 PM
Interesting.  It just goes to show that even using your exact words ("If I can fix something then I am no longer a victim of that thing.") does not mean the words are interpreted the same. Those words appeared to me as if you ( generic you) are stuck as a victim if you cannot fix it. As if being a victim is a bad thing and something must be fixed to make you not a victim. Why would one need to fix something that was good? If that was not what you meant, I simply read the words in a different way than you intended.

I did not realize you were not victimized, i.e. not raged at or told that the reason your spouse left was all your fault, did not have money taken from you, did not have your health put in jeopardy by cheating, did not have anything stolen from you, we're not lied to or about. That is unusual, I think. I was not a passive passenger that was just along for the ride when my xh blew up. I was victimized, with malice and rancor, as were most of the people I have read here, so yes, I do have that lens. I believe anyone lied to or cheated on is a victim of another's self absorbed actions, but acknowledge that is my opinion. I did not in any way equate victim with victimhood and that is what I am trying to understand in what you wrote.

So I guess I still do not understand. How is it you feel victim hood and it keeps you a little stuck if you aren't a victim of anything? What IS  your definition of victim hood?
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Re: Love & Hate
#83: October 19, 2021, 06:17:13 AM
I did not realize you were not victimized, i.e. not raged at or told that the reason your spouse left was all your fault, did not have money taken from you, did not have your health put in jeopardy by cheating, did not have anything stolen from you, we're not lied to or about. That is unusual, I think. I was not a passive passenger that was just along for the ride when my xh blew up. I was victimized, with malice and rancor, as were most of the people I have read here, so yes, I do have that lens. I believe anyone lied to or cheated on is a victim of another's self absorbed actions, but acknowledge that is my opinion. I did not in any way equate victim with victimhood and that is what I am trying to understand in what you wrote.

So I guess I still do not understand. How is it you feel victim hood and it keeps you a little stuck if you aren't a victim of anything? What IS  your definition of victim hood?

Interesting assumption OR. I was raged at, cut down, diminished, told all the similar script statements, cheated on, lied to. In fact in my life my wife played a singularly unique role because of my past which had been very healing and she completely reversed that and attempted to destroy all of it. But none of those things leads to me being victimized. What I have been saying is that to be a "victim" can become a state of being. I have known people who have and are still spending all their lives feeling like they have been cheated out of one thing or another, that a person in their lives caused them something that then meant they could never be happy, etc. This is outside of the realm of MLC. This is, in my opinion, where our tendency for feeling sorry for ourselves spins into disorder. To be crystal clear this is NOT what I am saying happened to me or can happen to LBSes. I am giving an extreme example to illustrate the point. We all have the capacity to feel sorry for ourselves, which can be healthy if its bounded and directed to situations. It allows us to have empathy and care for ourselves, to acknowledge that something happened to us that was hurtful. It can be an important part of the grieving process.

But if this capacity goes awry then it can become something that hinders (like most psychological issues).

I think at the core is a disagreement between how you and I view and understand what it means to be a victim. Many bad things happened to me in life. I was a victim when they happened to me when I was a very young child, because I was a child, I relied on others to take care of me and they did not. I had not enough agency nor understanding nor ability to take care of myself physical nor emotionally and that care was not given. I was a victim then. When my wife had a psychological breakdown and did all of the above I was a fully formed adult, with agency, ability to take care of myself, and to live with consequences of my choices. I was not a victim then.

As for your last question I believe I pretty much explained that in the first two posts.
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Re: Love & Hate
#84: November 13, 2021, 11:53:12 AM
Time for a non update and its really more about me. I have thought about posting about some new behaviours from my W, even started one time and wrote it all out, then just threw it away. You know why? Because as much as I have known it all along I am now feeling there is really no need to even write updates about what is happening. Because truthfully it doesn't matter. Not in a negative sense, not in an angry sense, but from a place of just day to day living.

I really let go of any stage watching, analyzing, waiting, hoping, not hoping, etc a long time ago. I fully embraced that my entire relationship and marriage was over years ago. Yes as I have said here and elsewhere I meet my W wherever she is. If she is friendly I am friendly. If she disappears that is fine. If she tries to engage I engage to the level of reality as it is now (we are technically married but we are not really even friend, rather people who used to be very close for many years and shared a life but all now in the a distant past).

I am not at all saying any of this for newbies (and I hate to say it but I would say anything less than 5 years is still in some ways a "newbie"). I am simply sharing that there are stages even beyond acceptance, detachment, moving forward. Like all things in life a life lived with self awareness, acceptance and growth is one where nothing is static, nothing is permanent the way it exists today. So unless we actively choose to share our lives with friends, loved ones, etc we simply start to become more distant.

So as I now see certain things from my W which seem to indicate she is trying to remain somehow "connected" (latest example: she is buying me pajamas so I can be comfortable and look good, the disconnection from reality is off the charts) I just find myself feel bad for her. Not because of what she is doing, but simply because I see her still in so much pain, confusion and searching.

I guess nothing is really different today than it was last week for me, yet something is not the same. I am still here hoping the best for her, that one day she may start finding a footing and start finding her way to joy and happiness. And if that they ever comes and she needs a friend and reaches out I can try to be friend.

Until then life keeps moving along, whether any of us wants it to or not.
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#85: November 13, 2021, 04:09:24 PM
Quote
I am still here hoping the best for her, that one day she may start finding a footing and start finding her way to joy and happiness. And if that they ever comes and she needs a friend and reaches out I can try to be friend
I get this! I think that is my placement in my life and with my XH. Moving from shock and disbeliefs to anger and acceptance. I accept his place and I think I do just hope the walking dead can once again come alive. I have told him we are not friends right now, but we can be civil and friendly and maybe in the future we can be friends. Who knows what the future holds. I did tell him that I have been a good friend to him. It’s his choice if he want to burn the bridge to that kind of friendship. It doesn’t come by easily. He said “ you’re right”
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2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
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Re: Love & Hate
#86: November 20, 2021, 11:38:28 AM
Wanted to share an interesting revelation that I had recently. I want to start by staying that I have no questions about my relationship with my W in the past, pre her meltdown. We were close, we chose to be together, we talked about everything, neither one of us was "suppressed" in any way, we had no children to obligations that made us stay together etc. We didn't even plan to get married, we were together for 7 years before we got married because it made sense (as we were anyway in all practical purposes).

I say this because I think as much as my wife has fractured and is in pain and turmoil her wanting to be "free" from marriage actually may be a fragment of her true self. What I mean is before we met each other she definitely was a free spirit. Not in a bad sense, rather she was someone who would have never had being in a serious relationship on her "to do" list in her life, much less being married. We both were in a lot of ways unique match, I wasn't looking for marriage etc either. We met, quickly grew close, spent years developing a life separate and together etc without any stated commitment or idea of where we were going. I think it was unusual and unexpected for both of us.

And I think I realized as much as everything else may be driven by disorder her desire to be free, to not be bound, is probably one of the few things that are rooted in her true self. I am not saying she blew up her life and marriage because of this, rather when her psyche blew up everything else was so unlike her "real" self it was shocking. But I am now realizing she was both running away and once she had to devalue me and our lives she reverted to her "old" self.

Its not a big thing, but I still found it interesting. I do not believe that after her limerence with OM ends she will end up in any kind of long term relationship again.
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#87: November 24, 2021, 01:39:00 AM
Thank you, Martin, for sharing yet another aspect of your understanding in regards to the psychological upheaval you have witnessed in your wife.  As time goes on, more lightbulb moments come your way, don’t they. 

I’m struck by your observation that your wife’s desire to be free is ‘rooted in her true self’ — part of her DNA — and this trait, which had lain semi-dormant for many years, has been reactivated by her crisis.  Irrepressible yearning for freedom and actualizing it by running away from their pre-crisis era life and responsibilities seems to be one of the characteristics of many MLCers.

I am going to go out on a limb and theorize that many of them want to be free, not because it has always been in their blood (an inborn trait), but because they are perhaps harking back to their carefree days of long ago and revisiting/redoing their teen years.  I believe it’s not a coincidence that some of these folks rekindle romantic relationships from that era, talk and dress as if they were a few decades younger, hang out with a much younger crowd, etc. 

I certainly heard my husband describe his visceral yearning to be free several times during his wild years, often described as ‘RE-play.’  That quest for freedom is not because of who he fundamentally was (unlike your wife), but because that was a necessary part of demolishing his definition of who he thought he was and going back to the drawing board. He re-played his crucial teenage years— during which his adult persona, he believed, was formed by adopting/copying various influencers — so that he could rebuild it authentically with his own hands at last.  At midlife! 

Perhaps, ‘freedom’ has different purposes and outcomes in a sample of these two particular individuals.  Interesting subject, I must say. 

Just my observation. 
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« Last Edit: November 24, 2021, 01:41:40 AM by Acorn »
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#88: November 24, 2021, 04:01:28 AM
So interesting Marvin. I can see this. My XH is with someone who strikingly reminds me off his x gf from college that hurt him badly. Also, his need for freedom from responsibility strikes a cord as well. Although, funny that he has more responsibility as she is totally dependent on him and he is playing the white knight.

Funny, what they think they want and need is not always what they then do.
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2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
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#89: November 24, 2021, 05:18:32 AM


I am going to go out on a limb and theorize that many of them want to be free, not because it has always been in their blood (an inborn trait), but because they are perhaps harking back to their carefree days of long ago and revisiting/redoing their teen years.  I believe it’s not a coincidence that some of these folks rekindle romantic relationships from that era, talk and dress as if they were a few decades younger, hang out with a much younger crowd, etc. 

I certainly heard my husband describe his visceral yearning to be free several times during his wild years, often described as ‘RE-play.’  That quest for freedom is not because of who he fundamentally was (unlike your wife), but because that was a necessary part of demolishing his definition of who he thought he was and going back to the drawing board. He re-played his crucial teenage years— during which his adult persona, he believed, was formed by adopting/copying various influencers — so that he could rebuild it authentically with his own hands at last.  At midlife! 

Perhaps, ‘freedom’ has different purposes and outcomes in a sample of these two particular individuals.  Interesting subject, I must say. 

Just my observation.

Very interesting to see these two similar perspectives, Marvin and Acorn.
I can speak to the desire to go back to the time when they were free - I have “evidence” to this (I put that in quotes because as we know, what we see is not always what we think it is, even when it looks exactly like what we think it is).
I will take this occasion of my wedding anniversary to speak briefly about my own situation. Prior to BD, my husband would angrily (often over the top anger) recount over and over how he had wanted to go away to college but his mother wouldn’t let him and she made him go to a college that was within driving distance of his childhood home. So it’s not a coincidence to me that he had an affair with a woman he hadn’t seen since the summer after high school graduation blew up and then choose to move 1000 miles away and live temporary in an apartment on fraternity row on a college. campus.

However, I also believe that some of his behavior post-bd has been rooted in his true self. Though again, I caution especially newbies that even things that seem clear are not always what they seem. I’m not in my former husband’s head. I knew him and thought I was extremely close to him. But I don’t know him at all anymore.

But going back to acorns comment, I believe that somewhere deep inside him, he feels that what he has done was necessary in terms of rebuilding his persona as his authentic self and not the one he was forced to be by his parents. But also, his authentic self is inherently selfish, among other things.
Sorry for the interjection- back to Marvin’s thread, lol. 😂
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Re: Love & Hate
#90: November 24, 2021, 05:34:41 AM
Thank you everyone, great comments. And this is not my "thread," its "our" thread!  ;)

I completely agree that the typically "replay" component (which my wife also absolutely has) is the reversion to youth, escape from responsibility, trying to recapture a false sense of "freedom" from youth, etc. I want to clarify that past that I also realized she is a "free spirit" as a shorthand, and neither of us would naturally have decided to "marry."
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No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

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Re: Love & Hate
#91: November 24, 2021, 06:07:15 PM
I want to clarify that past that I also realized she is a "free spirit" as a shorthand, and neither of us would naturally have decided to "marry."

Hi Marvin,

My wife is also a free spirit while I am a planner and more practical nature.   For the first 15 years of our marriage, we complemented each other and things seem to work.   When her MLC occurred, I could see her need to be free of her current life which includes me.   Not sure in my M  if the free spirit vs planner nature was the critical issue but it does give me things to ponder.   Thanks for sharing your insights.

HF
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W - 42
M - 46
Together 19 years, M 17
2 kids
BD - July 2020
W Left Home - January 2021
W Filed for D - May 2021

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Re: Love & Hate
#92: December 05, 2021, 04:16:38 AM
I have generally decided there its not useful to document much that happens because its all noise. I do not believe that MLCers, who are disordered, have much motivation, rhyme or reason for what they do and any and all external behaviour analysis is just us projecting our wishes and hopes on them. It may be normal initially but hopefully we all move on from that and no longer even really look.

But I wanted to share this little bit as an illustration. My wife reached out to me for us to have dinner on my upcoming birthday with a mutual friend. She knows very well I am in a relationship with someone else, and she is here with me. So obviously it is much more likely I will spend time on my birthday with my partner, and the fact that two of them will not be meeting means this is not likely. So I thanked her for her offer and declined. But she did want the three of us (me, her and our mutual friend) to go to dinner some other time, which we did.

Well shockingly she spent most of the time ignoring me, and then started throwing very pointed and unpleasant jabs at me. She kept saying things like how I am going to spend my birthday with the "misses" and even at some point when I decided it was time to politely excuse myself she said "yes why don't you go home to the misses."

Obviously I said nothing (truth darts imho are not useful, may make us feel better, but they are simply cruel and don't really do anything). I smiled, excused myself and left as my friend was staring at me across the table wide eyed. She and I had a chat the next day where she said "well I am never doing that again!" I even asked her for a reality check to see if I have not noticed something about myself and she confirmed that it was all her.

My main point here is this: someone else may think this is about "jealousy" or how its a sign she is waking up, etc etc. I personally do not believe any of that, that would be a waste of time. I believe this is about her fantasy/delusion being shaken. I imagine she believes she is so great that I would always be in love with her, be there always. So the idea that I may choose not to spend time with her may shake that. And that is what she is reacting to. Its not a sign of anything other than another indication of the state she has been in since all this started. It means nothing, analyzing or reacting to any of this is a fools errand.
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No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

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Love & Hate
#93: December 05, 2021, 06:10:53 AM
My first instinct was pure jealousy. You’re not where she left you. How dare you!!! , but like you I have come to realize there is no point in trying to figure out or analyze their behavior, because as long as it is not rational behavior who knows what any of it means.

She clearly didn’t see your undying devotion for her and she did not like it. No one wants to lose the love and admiration of someone. Even if… they don’t return it. It’s a hard thing to find. I do think she see’s that, but apparently still not grown enough to express it or embrace it now or may never.
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« Last Edit: December 05, 2021, 06:15:30 AM by Tornup »
H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

N

Nas

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Re: Love & Hate
#94: December 05, 2021, 07:11:44 AM


Well shockingly she spent most of the time ignoring me, and then started throwing very pointed and unpleasant jabs at me. She kept saying things like how I am going to spend my birthday with the "misses" and even at some point when I decided it was time to politely excuse myself she said "yes why don't you go home to the misses."

...

My main point here is this: someone else may think this is about "jealousy" or how its a sign she is waking up, etc etc. I personally do not believe any of that, that would be a waste of time. I believe this is about her fantasy/delusion being shaken. I imagine she believes she is so great that I would always be in love with her, be there always. So the idea that I may choose not to spend time with her may shake that. And that is what she is reacting to. Its not a sign of anything other than another indication of the state she has been in since all this started. It means nothing, analyzing or reacting to any of this is a fools errand.

A jealous woman is such an unappealing thing - the first part, where she requested to meet up only to ignore you in large part, and then was making the jabs about "the mrs" did strike me as green tinged, but in a "my ego is bruised" kind of way.

BUT...
I'm in full agreement with you that it's all still a part of the fantasy/delusion. (Fair warning, I've been having a black hole of the soul so I hope I don't bring you or anyone else way down to where I am - I'm going to try not to be too pessimistic here  ;)) I was thinking recently that the thing that I've personally found most hurtful about all of what's gone down is the way I was treated like an inanimate object, some *thing* that he acquired, like all the other *things* that he uses to validate his "importance" or "specialness" as a man. And when a thing ceases to make him feel special anymore, or rather, when it ceases to make him appear uniquely special to others, it's disposed of: technology, cars, designer labels...me.  With all *things*, there's eventually an upgrade that promises to reflect better on him.

Now, that's what I think about MY situation - enough about that. When I read your updates and the updates of many others, I think something similar but different. I still believe the spouse in crisis interacts with the LBS as though the LBS is merely an object, or sometimes maybe a character in their fantasy world, one that should be pliable and moved around at the in-crisis person's will. But...

I imagine she believes she is so great that I would always be in love with her, be there always. So the idea that I may choose not to spend time with her may shake that. And that is what she is reacting to

Just a thought: this may be her reaction during times when she's feeling relatively okay or good about herself. The ego gets dinged because you are supposed to be the man she always knew, the one who treated her like she was special. How could you not be making her feel special anymore??
Then I imagine there's times where she doesn't feel so great about herself and in those times, instead of a sort of arrogant "believing she's so great you'll always be in love with her" she likely feels a jolt of self-pitying (or maybe just sad without the self-pity, who knows) "oh f**k, I used to feel special with this man and now I don't and what if I never have that again?"

Either way, as you say, it's all about her and her feelings and how you make her feel (or don't make her feel, as the case may be), but nothing about you as an actual human being with needs and feelings. I think I'm just repeating a version of what you already said, but I say this for all LBS reading along: (Until there's UNDENIABLY CLEAR signs of some form of remorse/amends for past behavior) Analyzing words and actions is an endless hamster wheel, because the LBS does not matter to their in-crisis/WAS spouse except in terms of what they make the in-crisis spouse feel at a given moment in time. And what purpose the LBS serves in one given moment, or what feeling they elicit, may differ at another given moment. It may be petty jealousy at one moment, foot stomping tantrum-y obstinance in another moment. The only constant is that it's all about them.

Anyway, just a ramble with my coffee here (and I probably forgot to say part of what I initially came here to say). Wishing you a fabulous, peaceful birthday.  :)
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Love & Hate
#95: December 05, 2021, 12:34:45 PM
Nas, you must have forgotten to write something, because that was much less dark than I was expecting. :) Seemed very practical to me.

The only other aspect is if you believe the idea that the "real" spouse is imprisoned inside the MLC. That persona may hear things and remember them, but in the here and now, it's irrelevant. (I think that's one of the reasons why I prefer polite responses when appropriate vs. the truth darts.) But in any scenario, if someone is being a jerk to you, standing up for yourself is always the right answer.

(Well, maybe not if you've been pulled over by the police...)

Sorry you had such a crazy experience, Marvin. But it sounds like you handled it smoothly. And happy birthday!

JB



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Re: Love & Hate
#96: December 05, 2021, 01:12:36 PM
JB: I think the basic principles you refer to are sound, they are a very good high level view of what is going on at MLC and a good guide to start with. I personally have a more complex view of MLC. It is a psychological fracture. It is a MAJOR psychological event. It has no "process," no simple rules, no timelines and no guaranteed recovery. The person we knew falls apart in a sense and is swimming in a world of pain, anxiety, confusion and disassociation. I used the analogy of someone lost on a hall of mirror elsewhere, where everyone else is just a two dimensional cardboard cut out. We all become objects to the person in crises, they retreat into a state of narcissism as a mode of coping. Action and consequence decouple and they construct realities to deal with the pain. And the normal functions of memory are no longer really at play.

With that in mind to me the idea of "standing up" for oneself is really not relevant. That is different than protecting oneself, whether its from going NC or dark, or detaching, or GAL or all the ways we must separate, take our focus off ours MLCer and try to heal and move on. I am five years out, really have not been looking at my wife's behaviour, and have been living my life for easily four of those years now. So my reaction is very different, I feel a lot of empathy for her and the whole thing was kind of sad for me. I could tell the pain and turmoil she was in. This in NO WAY accounts for or excuses her behaviour, but her comments really did not hit me if that makes sense.

I would not suggest anything like this for newbies or for people who are not yet fully detached and have their full boundaries up. I was sharing to show how it is easy in the early days (and by early I mean years) to still try to ascribe positive or hopeful motivation to actions that we can not possible comprehend.
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No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

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Love & Hate
#97: December 05, 2021, 04:04:43 PM
Good clarification, Marvin. Thanks.
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Love & Hate
#98: December 07, 2021, 12:41:23 AM
Thank you, Marvin, for sharing your experience. 

Quote
Obviously I said nothing (truth darts imho are not useful, may make us feel better, but they are simply cruel and don't really do anything). I smiled, excused myself and left as my friend was staring at me across the table wide eyed.

Here is a medal for exiting the scene calmly and without compromising your dignity by engaging with her about the comments.  🥇

I agree with you about truth darts.  I personally find them incongruous with grace, agape, the Golden Rule and being the lighthouse — if that is what LBS is trying to practice. 

Raise your hand if you respond well when a self-anointed critic proclaims to you the areas they find you deficient or what you’ve messed up.  It doesn't matter if they are 100% right.  I believe it is not a productive approach for any kind of relationship. 

Even when enforcing boundaries, their misdeeds are not the focus; only your acceptable standard of behaviour and what you will do when the other person breaks that boundary. 

Quote
My main point here is this: someone else may think this is about "jealousy" or how its a sign she is waking up, etc etc. I personally do not believe any of that, that would be a waste of time.

I think you bring up an excellent point here. 

I also agree that the content of one’s interpretation of another’s behaviour is often the sum of our own thoughts and wishes, not an objective and clinical analysis. 

If I may go off the tangent a bit here, please.  It is related to interpreting MLCer’s behaviour.’ Really. ;D

When we first join the forum, we are advised time and again to detach — get off the spouse’s rollercoaster in order to avoid getting emotionally whiplashed by what the spouse says and does.

I see that as the first stage of detachment.  The next part is more complicated, I think — to observe dispassionately when the spouse does a pass-by, and have no desire to swivel your head in their direction every which way they go and interpret their words and actions.   

When you have become quite sanguine about MLCer’s behaviours but you are still watching them and regularly giving out mental report cards (good, bad, ‘o dear…’) or interpretations, I believe that is an established state of attachment, sans adrenaline, and a more insidious form.

I suggest that this kind of flying-under-the-radar attachment is more harmful to LBS because it is sustainable over a long period of time and can become a way of life.

Just my view. 
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« Last Edit: December 07, 2021, 12:45:05 AM by Acorn »
Feb 2015: BD. 
Dec 2017: Seriously reconnecting

H never left home.

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Love & Hate
#99: December 07, 2021, 03:51:10 AM
Quote
When you have become quite sanguine about MLCer’s behaviours but you are still watching them and regularly giving out mental report cards (good, bad, ‘o dear…’) or interpretations, I believe that is an established state of attachment, sans adrenaline, and a more insidious form.

I suggest that this kind of flying-under-the-radar attachment is more harmful to LBS because it is sustainable over a long period of time and can become a way of life
This is golden !!!!  Another print, post and read daily when working on detachment. Thank you
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H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

C
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Love & Hate
#100: Today at 09:08:05 AM
Quote
When you have become quite sanguine about MLCer’s behaviours but you are still watching them and regularly giving out mental report cards (good, bad, ‘o dear…’) or interpretations, I believe that is an established state of attachment, sans adrenaline, and a more insidious form.

I suggest that this kind of flying-under-the-radar attachment is more harmful to LBS because it is sustainable over a long period of time and can become a way of life
This is golden !!!!  Another print, post and read daily when working on detachment. Thank you

Yes, I completely agree with all of this! In my case, it’s not specific to my spouse… I overanalyze how people are or might be reacting to my words or behaviors generally. I constantly have to remind myself that if *I* know the true motivations for my actions, and if I am satisfied with those motivations, that’s all I can control and that’s the most important thing to me. I can’t control how other people interpret or judge me… and I definitely can’t even alter how other people interpret my words or actions if they don’t talk to me about my intent.

But you’re absolutely right, Acorn - that “not reacting, just observing” place is a dangerous one because it feels so much more sustainable than being on the roller coaster. But it’s still an unhealthy attachment to things that are out of your control.
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