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Author Topic: My Story Stopping the insanity

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My Story Stopping the insanity
OP: September 14, 2021, 06:41:35 AM
Previous thread
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11809.150

Time for a new a thread. A new start. A new look on things. Hopefully,  Moving forward. As much anxiety I have had in the last week about the D30 second wedding approaching I am starting to ease up. I have broken down the day and realized it is just a day and just moments. Clearly the last 10 months have been horrific and so there really is nothing that I can’t get through.

I am going to enjoy the family that comes and turn my focus on to family. Really, in all the 10 months that has been the saddest part for me. Mourning the loss of my family. Here everyone that can come will be here and I have the opportunity to share time and love with them and enjoy it. I am going to do that.

Sad the MLC’r can’t embrace the core of what is most important. Family. When I think of that it really is heartbreaking for them.
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« Last Edit: September 14, 2021, 07:01:32 AM by Tornup »
H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

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Stopping the insanity
#1: September 14, 2021, 06:48:30 AM
Attaching.....
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Me - 58, xW - 50
Together 19 years - Married 17 at separation & 21 at D-Day
S - 14, D - 10
2 Dogs
BD#1 - August 2015
Atomic BD - 13 Dec 2015
House sold & separated - Mar 2016
Divorce final 30 August 2019

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A "friend" will not "stand by you" no matter what you do. That is NOT a friend. That is an enabler. That is an accomplice.
A REAL friend will sit you down and tell you to your face to stop being a firetrucking idiot before you ruin your life and the lives of those around you.

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Stopping the insanity
#2: September 14, 2021, 07:11:10 AM
Quote
Really in all the 10 months that has been the saddest part for me. Mourning the loss of my family.

Sad the MLC’r can’t embrace the core of what is most important. Family.

I had often thought that in all cultures and societies, the family has always been what people fought for, what people considered to be the most important thing in life, what people would give their lives for. This "loss" of our small family, just the three of us, is for me the hardest thing to live with, and even though my daughter and I are still a "family", it hurts.

My husband, who is an only child whose parents are deceased, left...he lived far away from either of us and never invited his daughter to visit him in the countries where he was working nor has he spent much time with her.

For whatever reason, he had to leave us. I know that his family is still important to him, but he, and other MLCer's must leave it behind in order to go through their crisis.

Although it makes no sense to us, why they would leave a loving and stable family, it is very consistent in this crisis, most members have seen the same thing happen.

Many marriages break apart for various reasons, but often those parents remain involved with their kids. This is different in MLCer's.

There are many thoughts about this..one that helped me is that the MLCer is somehow at an earlier age, before they ever met you or had a family and somehow they are living a life that could not include this family unit...I know, it doesn't make much sense. It is just one of the many theories of why they would turn away from what most people would die to have.
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"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

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Stopping the insanity
#3: September 14, 2021, 07:41:20 AM
Quote
There are many thoughts about this..one that helped me is that the MLCer is somehow at an earlier age, before they ever met you or had a family and somehow they are living a life that could not include this family unit...I know, it doesn't make much sense. It is just one of the many theories of why they would turn away from what most people would die to have
Xyzcf -
I so agree with this. I truly believe in my XH situation he has reverted back to his last relationship age before myself and family. There was a lot of hurt and damage done to his “psyche” from the relationship. Many insecurities and I honestly feel I was an accomplishment / bandaid at the time he sought me for a relationship. To get past that relationship and his insecurities  and have self worth.

That worked and love evolved until the loss of our daughter. That is a hard thing to get through for the most secure and healthy individuals. I feel that the already insecure embedded feelings and then high pressure job allowed the now flattery and OPPORTUNITY from women to feed the delicate ego that is now his MLC. He has never had women show interest in him ( per his recollection of his past) Unfortunately, the interest is coming from his position. A emotional unavailable man is not attractive.

Now his moral compass is dropped to save himself from his own thoughts. Unfortunately for him it is not working and the added failures of the marriage and loss of family are eating him alive, yet…. He can’t leave the OW. ( MLC addictive behavior is real ) Showering her with gifts and vacations and expensive meals. Totally unlike him. It is so MLC script, however.

In the end I do NOW fully grasp that he will have to make the decision to face himself and ask those all important questions. 

Think about the times when you felt happiest, proudest and most fulfilled in your career and personal life. Are you still living your life in accordance with the values that inspired those experiences? If not, what changes can you make to turn things around?

I asked him that and the response I got was “I dont know” until he decides to even answer those simplest of questions and dive into how he got where he is and why the relationship he escaped to is making him even more miserable he will live in limbo and misery.
I am going to choose to keep moving forward and after this wedding on Saturday put my eyes on me and leave him behind.

If he ever gets to a better place and comes knocking ( which I don't see him having the strength to do ) I guess we will see truly how I will handle it. Right now since I don’t know who he is I have no desire to reconnect in a partnership, but if even a glimpse of who he was is trying to come back, even as a new version I don’t know what feelings that would trigger.

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« Last Edit: September 14, 2021, 08:12:41 AM by Tornup »
H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

T
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Stopping the insanity
#4: September 15, 2021, 04:27:28 AM
I keep wanting to get off the crazy bus, but I cant seem to find the exit. My S28 who works in the same department at work as OW ( my biggest issue with WTF was my X thinking)  had a conversation with me. Was told that he was assigned to be her contact for questions. Like a buddy system. He was furious. He said OW asked him a question and he was busy and told her he needed to finish what he was doing and he would help her. She got entitled and said “so, you’re not going to help me?” He said I am
I just need to finish this and she again came back at him basically complaining that he wasn't dropping everything to help her.

Then he told me they were moving her to days which means he would have to work all day with her vs now she comes in at night and he leaves as she is coming. I hate that he is in this situation and that his F could care less. He also was put up for a huge promotion that would have him moving to another state and was picked, but then when his F went to his boss to determine the new salary he was told his S28 couldn’t have the job. That they wanted to hire from outside.

They also recently hired a man who did the same job as XH for another company. My XH was told to stop traveling and stay in this location this new hired man is. My XH is over him and My S28. I feel very uneasy. Seems like they may know what my XH in his crisis has done and are working on replacing him and my S28 is paying the price as well. I know OW direct supervisor knows and told his boss about XH many EA with subordinates, but they dont have proof and XH denied it. I feel they are trying to expose it. Makes me very uneasy for my S28. I am furious XH cant see what he is doing.

On top of that my XH transferred $700 to my bank account with no reason or explanation. Not the first time he has done it. I finally figured out that I bought the liquor for D30 wedding this weekend and it came up in the convo we had when discussing our S28. I have told him before to not just blindly transfer money to me. I feel he is taking away things I am doing for my daughters wedding,
So he can just say he paid for it all. I paid for many other things however, so it is just random. I can’t understand where he is coming from.

I just know this is the same man that left me with no cancer insurance knowing I have reoccurent cancer, but feels the need to pay me back for a liquor bill. I will take it. If he wants to keep throwing the money at me, but it is clearly being done for his self and not for any other reason.

I have to see him today. I have therapy and then after work he is dropping some things off that he had st his condo I wanted and also some things for the wedding. We are going to go over the speech we are giving for D30 wedding. I have no seen him In 5 months. He has been gone for 10 months. I am hoping to keep it non R or Family talk. Keep it short and start major detachment. I hope I am drained from therapy, so that helps it along. I just feel like he “pokes the bear” in me, but in such a silent way that it makes me think I am crazy for thinking that way.

I feel that my eyes are opening to the silent manipulator that he is. Whether it is deliberate or not I am seeing a pattern of silent tactics. He has figured out how to shake my cage when he needs to and I am starting to think he does it to get me angry to justify his behavior. I personally feel when he has guilt or moments of clarity and doubt he wants me angry so he doesn't have to address his issues. Then he doesn't have them. I am the issue. I have the next 3 days of having to be around him. I am going to take back control and not let him get to me. I need to prove to myself that I can take back control of this crazy silent monstering. That’s what it feels like atleast. 

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« Last Edit: September 15, 2021, 04:37:48 AM by Tornup »
H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

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Stopping the insanity
#5: September 15, 2021, 05:08:26 AM
Following your Journey

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T
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Stopping the insanity
#6: September 15, 2021, 08:36:06 PM
What a day!! D30 wedding is in 3 days. My brother who I haven’t seen in 16 years showed up today. Met him and his wife for a beer before my therapy session. Therapy went well. Left therapy and picked my B and SIL up and came back to my house. They had a nice swim with my son who they have not seen since he was 12.

My XH came over to drop off some furniture pieces I asked for and then actually came in the house to go over my daughter speech for her wedding. He would normally since leaving not come in. He felt it was to painful. I think it was still hard, but he did it. We sat down and I told him it had went well with my brother and that was a relief. Said therapy went well. I told him that I only ever wanted to be a good mother and wife. Build a great life and career. I said I did that and then I had no control over it being taken away. I lost the same daughter and had many other tragedies in my life and despite that he hurt me anyways. Said that was a hard pill to swallow, but We are where we are. I deserve respect from him.

XH- he never meant to hurt me. ME-you did. You made decisions every time you lied to me, took off your ring, flirted with a women after eating a lunch I sent with you each day, or in the clothes I pulled out for you to wear.  I hope some day we can be friends. I hope someday you can show me the respect I deserve. I can not be your friend as long as you are with the one you cheated on me with. If you ever do the work and decide it is a friendship worth having then knock on my door. If not after the wedding we will not be in contact.

I told him we lost D14 and you are still in a bad place, but you have 2 children that are living. How do you think that makes them feel? You are literally cutting out of your life 2 children over the loss of 1. Is the D14 the only one that matters? So, you have to decide. Keep running and continue to get more depressed or do something about it. Dig deep in your soul and do the work.

We worked well on the speech together. Working through a timeline of her life and recounting stories of her and family here and gone. It was actually a very tender moment working on the speech and I think D30 is really going to love it.

When he left he have me a hug. It was a genuine hug. You know with some grip to it. He hasn’t been able to give a real hug since leaving, so I think he has made some type of progress. Not sure what kind, but some kind. I feel that was the last hug. Unless some miracle happens and he can figure himself out. I just don’t know if he is strong enough. So, I am going to embrace my family that is coming for the wedding. I wanted my family and my family will be here. Might not be my family with my XH, but it is my family. He just has no idea what he is giving up. It is so sad. It is sad to be him, truly. 💔
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H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

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Re: Stopping the insanity
#7: September 15, 2021, 09:30:42 PM
Tornup, I'm sorry but these are just the kind of R talks we are trying to tell you are just not productive with these MLCer's.

"I told him that I only ever wanted to be a good mother and wife. Build a great life and career. I said I did that and then I had no control over it being taken away."

"You made decisions every time you lied to me, took off your ring, flirted with a women after eating a lunch I sent with you each day, or in the clothes I pulled out for you to wear." (now this sounds like a mother)

"I can not be your friend as long as you are with the one you cheated on me with."

"So, you have to decide. Keep running and continue to get more depressed or do something about it. Dig deep in your soul and do the work."

I just feel you had a good opportunity to just have a nice time with him going over your speech with him for the wedding and had fun without guilty him.

I do know how hard it is to zip your lip though, been there.   ::)
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« Last Edit: September 15, 2021, 09:34:53 PM by Thunder »
A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

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Stopping the insanity
#8: September 16, 2021, 12:07:08 AM
Isn't it interesting how we read things so differently?  This is always the risk with online things, we only see what is written without necessarily knowing the whole story/context.

What I read sounded like pretty clear (and not too harsh) truth darts (saying that he DID hurt her, even though he "never meant to") and communication of boundaries (one of the things in RCR's articles is that active friendship doesn't work if there is an active OW), as well as an acceptance that this wedding may be the last time she sees him.....

And this by no means means that I have read anything "correctly", just differently; I don't really know the full context at all. 

This has all happened so fast for you, tornup, and the wedding as well throwing in so many emotions....
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« Last Edit: September 16, 2021, 12:13:44 AM by Trustandlove »

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Stopping the insanity
#9: September 16, 2021, 01:47:00 AM
Trustandlove makes a fair point, as does Thunder. What matters of course, and comes with more detachment and time, is your ability to assess with your own observer’s eye why you do what you do and how constructive it is for you.

I suspect you didn’t say anything you have not said before. And it is likely that it will make no big difference in the greater scheme of things so no need to give yourself a hard time either way.  :) What you might find helpful is to consider the underpinnings of it and how that informs your own actions moving forward.

Do you honestly believe that he did not know any of these things that you said, that it was new surprising information to him? Or that what you feel and think matters enough to change his behaviour when it has not done so up until now? And if the answer to both is No, what were you trying to achieve by saying what you said? (And we have all been there, so no judgment from us, we are just encouraging you to look at your own behaviour and his with the more objective eye that comes with trying to detach more. Normal LBS stuff.)

It is a tough pill to swallow that, for whatever reason and however we label it, the facts in most of our situations suggest that hurting us or others or a slew of predictable consequences do not matter enough to govern their actions. It isn’t that they don’t SEE, it’s that they don’t AGREE or that it doesn’t MATTER sufficiently. No amount of our POV is going to change that after you have said your piece once or twice, so no need to repeat yourself.

I suspect that there is a difference - which is rather hard to see in the moment - between saying things that are intended to try to influence someone else’s actions (eg doing x hurts me so please stop) vs saying things that are about our own actions. As a notoriously wordy person, I had to learn that less words were almost always better lol. Either bc my words trying to influence were wasted or bc my actions communicated my POV more clearly than my words  :) Reading your post, I read that most of what you said was the former, a mix of ‘why can’t you see x’ and ‘you should do y’ with a bit of ‘this is why I am going to do x now if you are still doing y’. But truthfully, based on what you posted, most of the discussion was about you trying to get him to act differently, about ‘fixing’ things that are not in your direct control. Understandable. But perhaps not as productive as you might wish? How is that working for you so far, Tornup, based on the facts as you see them?

With time, I have come to believe that an alternative approach might be to simply respect someone else’s choices and the predictable and reasonable consequences of that in their own lives and ours. (Which is not to say that doing so is easy or that we have to agree with them  :) ) But perhaps there is a kind of arrogance in doing otherwise? (I speak only for myself on that one lol). Bc truthfully, it is only MY experience and opinion of my own cause and effect between actions and consequences that tends to change MY behaviour, isn’t it? Just as true for LBS as MLCers. Which is why we detach and let go and stop having R talks and stop trying to fix someone else’s mess when we reach a point when we believe the cost is higher than the reward  :)

I hope that the wedding goes well and that you can continue to feel grateful for the family that you do have regardless of what is going on with your xh. And I know that you are smart and sane and strong so I have no doubt that when you are ready to see your own wood for your own trees, to be in your own more detached ‘cheap seats’ ha ha, you’ll get there  :)
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T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.
Healing and growing found here https://littleplotbythesea.wordpress.com

"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

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Stopping the insanity
#10: September 16, 2021, 02:11:42 AM
Thunder- I hear you, but honestly I think we did have a good and touching time. The truth darts were thrown in before the touching moments going over the speech. This has been going on for 12 years. He has to have someone giving him some reality checks. We actually laughed briefly which he never does and had good cries on his father who has passed. I don’t think I made him feel guilty. I made him see I am stronger. That I deserved better and that I want him in my life in some capacity, but not while he is with someone that hurt me and my children and who I frankly feel is hurting him.

I told him it is his life to live and he can live it as he pleases. I just dont see him being any happier . In writing it seems heavier, but there was more non heavier conversation in between this. That convo isn’t interesting or really relevant to add. It is hard to zip my 👄 lips, but I said what I needed to say knowing that he is not changing and not doing the work. After this wedding I am cutting off communication. I have to live with where I left it. I made his two favorite foods and packaged them up in a few meals to microwave for work and sent him on his way. He got a good mix of tough love and love. I don’t regret it. I told him I am working with my therapist to let it all go.

Trust and Love-

How you see it is how I see it. It’s funny because this sight has been a life saver, but it can be conflicting. You can get the harsh just cut them off, then the be kind and show love, etc. I know when I read the earlier postings from a decade ago it is a lot of support to save the marriage and then it switched to save you. I feel I do a little of both. I am trying to show him that he is loved. Maybe we may never get back together, but I love him. The truth is I love myself more.

Frankly, he fell in love with a confidant woman. He has to see that woman again and that is what I just showed him. I deserved better than what he did, but I know what he did he would not have done if he was in his right frame of mind and I will not enable him to keep ignoring it. A true friend tells you what you need to hear. He would expect nothing less from the woman he USED to love. My therapist said do what you need to do to start looking after you. I felt he needed to see a change. A shift in how I am handling things.

This weekend is my opportunity for him to get a gentle reality check. With me and family. We will be kind, share stories and treat him like none of this happened. Friday and Saturday there will be no relationship talks. It will be all light and airy. Those will be the moments Thunder you think should have been today.
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H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

T
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Stopping the insanity
#11: September 16, 2021, 02:45:26 AM
Treasur-
 I actually told him that he has only one life to live and he can live it how he wants. I said what I needed to say. My most important hurts. His letting go of his relationship with OUR  children and his disrespect for me. I need those things to change IF he wants me in his life. He does not have to choose to have me in his life. After this weekend the choice is totally up to him as I will not contact him anymore.  I did it in condensed form and speaking from my therapy session and what I am working on with her. So, was it things maybe I have mentioned? Yes, but in this context it was about what I am trying to resolve and learn to accept in therapy and take back control of my life whether he changes or not. I feel yesterday was completely different.

I feel it went really well. I am hopeful for a good wedding and yet sad I may never see him again. He does need to know I will forgive him, but honestly without respect I CANT. Without him mending the relationship with his kids I CANT. So, I have to heal and I felt if it could possibly be the last time together I needed to show love, friendship, concern and hope. He got it all.  He left with his favorite meals, a hug and an invite back for friendship if he is willing and able. He didn’t leave crying like he normally does. The whole visit was an hour. I didn’t linger in heavy convo.

I think he sees I am letting go. After this weekend I will truly be able to work on letting go, so If I ever do talk to him again those conversations dont matter and I wont have to say those things, but right now I DO, but if that hurts things I DONT CARE. It is my life and I am not able to change for anybody and I am finally deciding that he will have to accept me as I am. I certainly have had to accept him and all his issues. Arrogant? Maybe a little. I lost a lot of self respect. Maybe a little arrogance is what I feel I need to get some power back.  If he cant handle me as he is. In his crazy MLC mind. I get it. What I have to do is live with myself.

I truly believe I will not see him for a long time if ever again if something doesn't change in him. If he doesn’t hit his rock his rock bottom. Again, next 2 days he will only see fun me. I played it out in my head and I think it is the perfect ending if this is it. I can live with it. Let’s hope the wedding goes well and he and I give our daughter a great speech and I hope he in time will turn his life around. I am still in a little rescue mode helping him with his speech. So, there are still little hints of love and support at his every turn. He has to choose to see it and embrace it. He is a ruminator.  He will have a lot to sort out after this weekend filled with family.  I told him he can decide what he can face and not. Whether he has to keep running or not. What I do know is he is leaving with good feeling towards me. His guilt is with himself. He has to own it. It’s no longer my burden to carry for him.
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« Last Edit: September 16, 2021, 04:19:31 AM by Tornup »
H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

T
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Stopping the insanity
#12: September 17, 2021, 04:26:35 AM
Wedding weekend begins!!! Had some family last night over, but today most family will be over for food, drinks and swimming. XH said now he is really busy at work, so didn’t think he could break away to come. Ughhhh I said this is your daughters weekend. You knew it was coming. You have gone on vacations you didn’t have time for and weekends off that you never could take before and now you cant make a few hours to stop by for your daughter?

He said ok. I will stop by for a little bit after work. He is avoiding and escaping being around the family again. I should have let him just not show up. My mistake. Still trying to help avoid disappointment for D30. I have to just let him do or NOT do what he is going to do. I just knew she would be crushed. He is stating he is just trying to get through this weekend. He has no idea how hard it is to throw this family event weekend at our house by myself.

Also, was sent a video of OW on top of everything else. I have to say she is not his type and frankly a little hard looking. So besides her immature personality I am not impressed overall and as much as I really don’t  need things sent to me, this one actually helped in a weird way.  Even when we shouldn’t be jealous it is hard not to be, but I am definitely not now.

Send positive vibes my way today all. May today go smoothly for my family, but may my daughter enjoy the start to her wedding weekend. I am going to do my best to enjoy it with her despite the craziness of XH and his MLC!!
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« Last Edit: September 17, 2021, 05:03:25 AM by Tornup »
H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

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Stopping the insanity
#13: September 17, 2021, 07:01:11 AM
Enjoy this special time with your daughter and your family.

Quote
I have to just let him do or NOT do what he is going to do. I just knew she would be crushed. He is stating he is just trying to get through this weekend. He has no idea how hard it is to throw this family event weekend at our house by myself.

I may have told you this before but good advice I was given was to treat my husband like a long lost relative that I didn't know very well. We have difficulty because we tend to remember what they used to be like and they are not that person anymore.  :'(

We have no idea how hard it is for him to go through this weekend but I cannot imagine being in their shoes at a time like this. It is his worst nightmare. I am not at all surprised that he said he had work to do. That way he can try and capture the energy that he is going to need to face the family and the emotions of this event, in smaller increments of time.

I did not want his crisis to ruin my daughter's wedding and weekend....so perhaps just try nodding at whatever he says or does and  think "whatever".

LBSers are now the ones to do everything by themselves. It is hard and I have learned to make simpler plans or enlist help if necessary.

Your emotions/thoughts and feelings are very high understandably. Try as much as you can not to respond to his failure to live up to your expectations.

In reality, he is only a part of this day, there is so much more to love and enjoy in this weekend and indeed in your life.

Prayers that things will go smoothly, peacefully and that you will have all the strength you will need on this special weekend.

I also thought of events like this as a time of a "truce"...a period of time when we stepped aside from what had happened for a couple of days...kind of what they would do in a war over Christmas when both sides stopped warring. Just another way to visualize and makes things a bit easier for you.
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« Last Edit: September 17, 2021, 07:04:36 AM by xyzcf »
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

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https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

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Stopping the insanity
#14: September 17, 2021, 10:08:18 AM
I hope you enjoy the wedding, Tornup.
I hope you can lower your expectations of xh so you will not be distressed but detached if/when he fails to meet them. And that xh is, for both you and your daughter, just as xyzcf says, just one small part of a bigger lovelier event.
I hope you can lay down the heavy load of trying to protect yourself and others from the reality of things that you didn’t create and can’t control. And enjoy yourself.  :)
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T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.
Healing and growing found here https://littleplotbythesea.wordpress.com

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#15: September 17, 2021, 10:59:27 AM
Sending positive vibes for the weekend your way, Tornup!
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#16: September 17, 2021, 05:27:49 PM
Wishing you the most wonderful time on your daughters very special day.

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#17: September 17, 2021, 07:14:56 PM
Had a pretty good day and night. XH showed up for a few hours tonight. All my side of the family embraced him and treated him as they have always. My niece told me she always looked up to us as a couple and she really doesn’t want to lose her uncle. All my family greeted him and hugged him. XH Brother,SIL and kids and his mom came. He hasn’t talked to his Mom in 2 years.  He told me on exit she was up his A$$ all night.

I was in the kitchen when he left. He said thanks for inviting me. I said glad you made it. ( so weird how they talk to you like a neighbor) He then stood there. I guess he thought I would converse more. So I asked if he wanted some food and he said no he wasn’t eating. He said do you want to lock me out I don’t have a key. I said no? I have a house full of people coming and going I am not locking the door.( again strange) I followed him out and asked how it went. He said everyone was very nice, but I just don’t feel like I belong anywhere. We had a brief conversation and then I said I would see him tomorrow and he said ok.

Party is still going, but I am calling it a night. It’s always so crazy to see him interact with everyone, but then when I get him I get sad XH. I know he is just putting on an act for everyone, but still exhausting when I then get the depressed side. So hard to see him just come for a few hours and leave. It is just so unnatural to me. I just will never understand how they just cant get through this. I just don't see him ever working his way out of this pit of hell he is in. I will never understand how we got here, but what I do know is I am in a much better head space when I dont have to talk to him. One more day!

Tomorrow is wedding day and our joint speech. Let’s hope we can make it through it and she has a great day!
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« Last Edit: September 17, 2021, 07:37:09 PM by Tornup »
H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

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#18: September 17, 2021, 07:55:27 PM
Hi Tornup,

Glad that you had a good night and that you were able to make it ok with your XH there.  Hope the wedding tomorrow is beautiful and you have a blessed and joyous day.

HF
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#19: September 19, 2021, 11:13:26 AM
The wedding!!! So, spent the day setting up for the wedding yesterday. Was triggered once by XH but I squashed my irratation quickly. We then decorated her outdoor arbor just the two of us adding greenery and curtains while D30, S28, future SIL and neice watched. We did a great job and non issues. Worker as a team like when we were married. Was a bit surreal.

Wedding ceremony after XH walked daughter down the aisle, instead of sitting next to me he went past me and sat on other side of S28. It was awkward and frankly a little embarrassing. I said that also to him. He said he didn’t think about it. I was pretty upset. Others from my family noticed he did it and asked if I was ok. I did calm my self and went up to him privately and said that it was embarrassing and he said he was sorry and I said it’s ok I don’t want it to ruin the night, so lets move on and have a good night.

He engaged the rest of the night. Sat down next to me several times. Stayed at my table all night and went and got me drinks. It was nice to see him engage with his kids and our family from
both sides. I did ask him at one point how bad his need to flee from the party was. He said pretty high. That made me sad, however I feel as the night went on he had more fun. He said he did enjoy seeing everyone, but it also made him very sad. I asked if  felt like his life is going in a good direction to be happy. He said no. He said I am still just living to get through moments and days. ☹️ I said I hope that he can try different direction until he found one that made him happy. That was a brief 2 minute conversation and never addressed him about his personal feelings after that.

The speech went well. My D30 however did not like it, so that was disappointing. I feel she is just hard for us to please. I thought the speech went well and we put thought into it and did like a roast of her life. Timeline of growing up. I think we did one on middle school and her being bullied at one point, but how her perseverance survived and she was able to continue through and get great grades and we knew then that she was going to be an amazingly strong individual. That is the one she did not care for.

 All and all a good night. I have no idea what my XH was thinking most the night. What I wouldn’t pay to get into a mind of a MLC’r just once. He did watch me like a hawk all night. Not sure what that meant. It did cross my mind that he spent the whole day with his family that he hasn’t for 10 months and then drove to his girlfriend’s apartment at the end. I think that really had to be quite the switch of emotions and thoughts in his head.

One other very strange thing at the end of the night. He said that our SIL mother came on to him. I said what? He said yeah. I asked how. He said she came over and introduced herself and said She hadn’t met him before, but heard a lot about him from D30. She than told him she was sure they would get to know each other in the future or would see each other again in the future.  I said that was not coming on to you. That is common courtesy conversation. I feel he said it to make me jealous. No other explanation. She is married and she is not interested in my XH. Just a very strange thing to say??

My brother, wife and 2 of his daughters ( my nieces) came. Hadn’t seen him in 16 years and it went soooo good. So glad to reconnect with family specially after the loss of my XH in my life. So, very good weekend. I was surprised how much fun I was able to have at the wedding and let go of the 2 triggers thrown at me by XH. I really feel the starting of some true detachment now that the wedding went well and is over. We shall see how the tides turn and the story goes from here……



 
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« Last Edit: September 19, 2021, 11:19:58 AM by Tornup »
H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

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#20: September 19, 2021, 12:41:28 PM
It sounds like you did really well, Tornup. Congrats on the trigger squashing!
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#21: September 19, 2021, 02:23:52 PM
I'm glad you made it through the wedding.  I keep hoping any wedding my kids have will be an elopement.  ;D

I did think your reaction here was quite different that I would have had.
The speech went well. My D30 however did not like it, so that was disappointing. I feel she is just hard for us to please. I thought the speech went well and we put thought into it and did like a roast of her life. Timeline of growing up. I think we did one on middle school and her being bullied at one point, but how her perseverance survived and she was able to continue through and get great grades and we knew then that she was going to be an amazingly strong individual. That is the one she did not care for.
I, personally, would be mortified if my parents (or anyone) "Roasted" me or brought up my being bullied at my wedding without asking me if that was Ok first. I would think the average person's  idea of a "perfect" wedding would not include bringing up unhappy situations (no matter how they turned out). Having been bullied in middle school and while I fought for my myself and it changed me as a person altogether in many ways, it is not something I would  want to share with everyone at my wedding.  From the outside, I don't think she is hard for you to please. I think she could have been embarrassed beyond words. I could be wrong and simply projecting my own feelings had I been in a similar situation, but as a suggestion you might want to ask and/ or apologize if needed about telling things about her that she might want not to have shared with the world.

How was YOUR night? We heard whole lot about what your XH did or did not do and how you were wondering what he was thinking, but what about you? Did the wedding go as planned? Did you do anything fun with your B and his family at the wedding or before or after? Did you have a nice time with SIL's family?

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#22: September 19, 2021, 02:33:17 PM
Offroad-the speech was more in-depth. That was a small aspect that started out as her being selected to be a mediator in mid school for her ability to resolve conflict to have that turn a bit on her with some jealous bullies that she still showed resilience and strength. There were many other stories, but again I did not see it as a bad story. I said she did, so apparently you and she are on the same page. The “even the average person” personally felt a little offensive to to me at my core. This was a high anxiety wedding going in and I would have preferred not to be part of the speech, but I did my best.

Maybe that one part was a bad choice, but in general she is very hard to please and satisfy. So, an outsider who is hearing one story should not be able to state that not to be true?? We did our best. If it was a mistake it was. Can’t change it and I also will not let it eat me up.  I might add this was only immediate family. The wedding was a total of 37 people. So, most knew her story.

Also, I had another journal on the night before and the family time. The SIL family chose to not participate in any before wedding activities and stated in earlier journalling there have been fighting in that family. Also, I again said my brothers visit went well and all over I thought the weekend went pretty good.
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« Last Edit: September 19, 2021, 02:57:32 PM by Tornup »
H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

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Re: Stopping the insanity
#23: September 19, 2021, 03:04:04 PM
Tornup I am glad to hear the wedding went without a hitch and you and your X enjoyed it.  Enjoying family and friends is always a good memory for her special day.

I just wanted to say, please don't let it upset you your X sat with his son during the service.  That is so minor.
People know you two are divorced. They probably thought nothing of him sitting next to his son instead of next to you.  It is nothing to be embarrassed over.

I hope she had a nice father/daughter dance together.
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A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

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#24: September 19, 2021, 03:15:59 PM
Thunder-It was not that he sat next to my son. Normally you turn around and sit at first chair open after handing the bride to her husband to be. So, instead he went past it and me and my son to sit the farthest away. Again, it was very obvious. I think he did it more for wanting to disappear than about me, but if he was in his right frame of mind he would have sat next to me. I feel it is due to his feeling like he does not belong anymore in the family or anywhere. I let it go quite quickly and as I sad my family members noticed. It’s all good. I realize more and more his actions are not personal, but more about his internal struggles and he is ONLY ever thinking of HIM.

Another thing that happened before the wedding. He got there late. I knew he was nervous. When I saw him before going to sit down I told him Awe, you look so nice and handsome. He said I almost didn’t make it. Never commented on how I looked. I thought that was interesting, yet not affected by it. I think another aspect of the self centered behavior and thought process of a MLC’r. Nothing is positive in their head, so compliments would not come easily
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« Last Edit: September 19, 2021, 04:42:49 PM by Tornup »
H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

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Re: Stopping the insanity
#25: September 19, 2021, 04:16:43 PM
Yep I got that from my X too even though my family never, ever let him feel he was not accepted or welcomed.

I think it is just their guilt.

Nothing we can do about it.
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A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

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Stopping the insanity
#26: September 19, 2021, 05:24:12 PM
The “even the average person” personally felt a little offensive to to me at my core.
I'm not quite sure what you mean here? I said " I would think the average person" as in my thought process would be that in my experience, there has been no one who wanted anything negative at their wedding, so the average person probably would not want anything negative at their wedding. I did not say "even the average person". I'm sorry if that is what you read. I was trying to convey that bringing up bad memories, even if the end result was not bad, is not what anyone I know wanted at their wedding, so my thought process went the way it did. I don't have a "thinky" icon, sad to say. :-\

Quote
Maybe that one part was a bad choice, but in general she is very hard to please and satisfy. So, an outsider who is hearing one story should not be able to state that not to be true?? We did our best. If it was a mistake it was. Can’t change it and I also will not let it eat me up.
I see I should be using a whole lot more words. Since you were mentioning this one instance, I was commenting on this one instance, not her entire life. In this one instance, it may not have been that she is hard for you to please. It may be that what you thought would please her was not pleasant for her. That would not make her hard for you to please in this instance, it means you may not know what would please her in this instance if you had not asked. Those are different things. If you say she is generally hard to please and satisfy, I was not there all her life and you were. I was only commenting on this one instance and, as I said, it's because of my own history.

I have no idea if it was or wasn't a mistake. I was mentioning that it might have been, and invite you to ask her since it seemed to upset you that she didn't like at least that one part of the speech. Yes, IF it was a mistake there is something that can be done. You can apologize, but you won't know unless you ask her. If you ask her at some point, then you will know the actual answer to why she did not like that one part.

Quote
Also, I had another journal on the night before and the family time. The SIL family chose to not participate in any before wedding activities and stated in earlier journalling there have been fighting in that family. Also, I again said my brothers visit went well and all over I thought the weekend went pretty good.
Again, I see I should use more words. I have read all of your posts. A visit going well doesn't say much about what you did and what you enjoyed about it. Did you dance? Reminisce? Play board games? The wedding going well doesn't say how you felt about the proceedings. Happy for your daughter? Was she a beautiful bride? You don't have to say if you don't want to just because someone asks, but I loved the part about there being an outdoor archway, and that you decorated it. That is special.  If you took your XH out of the picture, what were your favorite parts? Or were they all just colored by his presence? (This would be completely normal ).

It sounds like you put together and hosted the whole thing. That sounds like a lot of work, and a lot of joy.
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#27: September 19, 2021, 06:03:48 PM
Offroad- I dont really want to get trapped on this one thing. Of course she felt it was a negative. We did have a open conversation around even some of the immediate family. I apologized. I said I see her point. That I did not go into detail, but referenced that she went from basically a mediator of problems to one that had to be faced with the problem and still made her way through and showed such strength and resilience.

This journalling is about my thoughts and feelings about getting through and moving through my struggles with MLC, so yes when on here that is my focus. That is what I am working though. So here my focus isn’t to discuss the details of wedding, but my interactions with XH. FB is filled with all the happy of the wedding 😊  Yes, I get we have to refocus away from them and on to us, but this was an event that was bringing me much anxiety.  Such a family event with a fractured family and not seeing my XH for 5 months.

 I think overall she had a lovely wedding. I think she had a great time. She was gorgeous. As she always is. She handled the wedding. I showed up and did what she needed and I am disappointed in myself for letting her down on that one aspect of the wedding, but again I am human and maybe the fact I have been a victim of many tragedies that I share openly to help others that has skewed things for me. I dont see those as a negative. I turn negatives into positives and that is what I see in her.

With her however a conversation is not always possible. She wants to state her issue on anything and only be heard. She does not ever own her part in the R so I always know whether I am right or wrong it is not open for discussion. Part of my therapy dealings is working through my ever difficult relationship with my daughter. She relies on me heavily for her venting, child care, animal care when gone etc. She tends to take me for granted. So, I am in a constant state of trying to win her approval. So, it is painful for me that I made an error including that in our speech. I was only included or looped in because her father could not come
up with anything nice to say. Which is sad in itself, but again she is difficult. Not just with us but she has few friends due to her inability to seen others sides. It is a revolving door for her. She does not maintain friends as she is easily offended and entitled. I love her dearly, but we all XH and S28 all struggle with her.

Moving on from the speech mistake which is giving me anxiety now more than when I started. Thank you for all the insight. I am always open to hear what I need to hear. In this instance I agree that I made a mistake.



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H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

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Re: Stopping the insanity
#28: September 19, 2021, 09:06:09 PM
Tornup so you made a mistake.  Let it go. You didn't ruin the wedding over it so don't beat yourself up over it.

The wedding turned out to be great, that is what people will remember.

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A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

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#29: September 20, 2021, 06:26:12 AM
Good morning,

Now that the wedding is over things will shift again. The focus on the wedding is done and the next things are to come.

Sometimes it takes me a little while to shift gears after certain "events" and I am often quite exhausted. I have found lately that I need a nap now and then to recharge. I think when there are lots of emotions in me, I require rest.

I hope that you have a good start to the week.

Take good care of yourself.
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" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

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#30: September 20, 2021, 06:45:40 AM
Xyzcf- yes, spot on!! I am just emotionally drained. Have a fee weeks more of travel and events with friends. Now wishing I would not have scheduled so much, but maybe keeping busy outsidenof work even if exhausted will still be best.
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H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

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#31: September 20, 2021, 12:35:27 PM
When you get a message from your oldest niece and it means everything, because I have been so emotional today. Think everything just has caught up with me.

My nieces note  ❤️
Thank you so much for everything. You were so strong and graceful even though you have a million reasons to be distracted.    NOTHING can keep a (family name removed ) down. ♥️

Also, D30 got some pictures back from the wedding and she said the wedding was perfect, so relived that she is happy with all now and now hopefully honeymoon is also the best. Whewwwwww
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H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

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#32: September 20, 2021, 01:25:41 PM
Isn’t it wonderful when people are kind? I increasingly see kindness as a bit of superpower when used with care, whereas entitlement is a rather horrid disease  ::)

I hope you will be rather kind and gentle with yourself for a little while, Tornup. I suspect you might have a bit of an emotional dip bc intentionally or unconsciously you may have been pressing the pause button on some inner work in progress or some levels of detachment or acceptance until after your daughter’s wedding.
Which is understandable.
So go slow, breathe and tread gently with yourself. Be gently selfish about where you invest your energy while you recharge and refocus, hopefully with support from your IC and good friends.
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« Last Edit: September 20, 2021, 01:28:29 PM by Treasur »
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.
Healing and growing found here https://littleplotbythesea.wordpress.com

"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

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#33: September 20, 2021, 02:02:38 PM
Treasur-

That is it exactly. I felt I couldn’t completely detach with the wedding. Wanted to be able to be in an ok place with XH so the day and night would go smoothly. When talking with therapist last week I said I think after this wedding is over the flood gates will open and the relief will start to come. Detachment should come easier and if not I will need some help with her on that. She said we will work on that and to start taking care of me as I have focused on everyone else for too long. I feel like today is the beginning of a new life.
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H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

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#34: September 20, 2021, 04:24:41 PM
Well just when I think the crazy will end it starts back up. XH OW last week at work demanded my S28 help her right then and there. Despite him telling her he would in a minute after he completed a task. Today at work she was asked to work on a project and she refused. Said she would leave if she had to do it. Her manager called my XH and he came down and said he would deal with it. He walked in office and her manager asked S28 to leave and he said no he could stay he will take OW out of office to talk. He proceeded to do that for over an hour. In the open.  I find it odd he chose to do that in the open rather than have her even sent to his office. Maybe he thought she would stay composed. My S28 said he told his Dad this is a $hit show and he is ready to quit.

And the craziness continues. I am listening, but no longer reacting or getting involved. Working on my zen on all of this!
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H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

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#35: September 21, 2021, 12:18:05 AM
S28 is 100% correct.. It IS a $#!tshow and whoever had the bright idea to put OW in the same working area as S28 needs to have their head examined for rocks..... She needs to be somewhere else where S28 is NOT having to deal with her and her entitlement attitude... Actually, it would be best if she DOES quit anyway because she is NOT an asset for the company with her ethics/morals... Maybe an ASS-et but not a positive asset....

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A "friend" will not "stand by you" no matter what you do. That is NOT a friend. That is an enabler. That is an accomplice.
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#36: September 21, 2021, 06:39:37 AM
The OW worked in my sons area when my XH started the EA. So, ultimately his F put him in this situation. What is crazy is she came to him as a problem. That is how they got involved and now she is a bigger problem as she thinks she cant be touched. Why do I feel she is setting him up for a law suit.

Either way, I am letting my son vent, but no longer addressing with my XH. He has to open his eyes to this destruction. You are so right UM she should quit. No one knows about the R except her mgr, S28 and XH. XH and mgr don't know that each of them know. It’s so crazy. I think the mgr is trying to escalate the issue because she is impossible to work with and my XH put them all in this position by getting involved with a subordinate to feed his wounded ego and avoid and escape.

XH flew out today leaving the chaos behind. We will see what happens next. I feel bad for my S28 and do listen and validate his frustration, but that is where my involvement from here ends.

UM- thank you for your quick wit and giving me a laugh as well!!
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H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

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#37: September 22, 2021, 06:40:40 AM
Last 2 days I have found myself very emotional. The wedding went really well. I actually had such a good weekend with my family and also some good times with XH at reception. Besides the 2 incidents that he triggered me things went well. I was unaffected the remainder of the time and was not drawn to him or away from him. 

In talking in therapy yesterday I said I think I am emotional due to trying to stay in limbo for the wedding. Once it was over I could start to move forward. Progress if you will. I don’t actually know how I feel anymore for my XH. I don’t feel in love. I don’t even know if I feel love. I feel nostalgia. I still wish none of this happened. I still want my old life back, but that is not possible. I think the emotions are coming from a place of MEH….

I actually hate that I may be falling out of love and know we can’t go back. I told my therapist I am not consumed anymore. I’m a little “grossed out” by him and his actions now. It’s like the rose colored glasses are off and I can finally see it all for what it is. He is such a lost soul. I think I am finally ready to move on with my life. I don’t feel the need to check in with him or save him. There is something very sad about it.

I want to still love him. I want to stand, but my feelings are changing. I have put so much emotional work into hanging in there, but I am ready to let go.  So, I am fully detaching. I never thought I would feel this way, but it is a different kind of loss now. We will see where this takes me. Where it takes him. Right now I am just relieved. Relieved that I can move forward and turn my direction to ME. There is a sadness to know I have lost love for him. There is a sadness of not being in love. Not feeling you have that person. I think that is where my flood gates have been for the las 2 days. I feel bad for him for losing me. He lost a lot.

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« Last Edit: September 22, 2021, 08:14:12 AM by Tornup »
H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

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#38: September 22, 2021, 07:06:22 AM
You may well have read on other threads, Tornup, of people hitting exactly the same point. Almost a fear of the implications of really detaching, a fear that we will lose some kind of love for them that mattered to us, that we will flick a switch and that will be that.
So how you feel is quite common and I think you are right in your assessment that working out your own emotional detachment probably really begins now. Hence the big emotions.

Fwiw....remind yourself that however you feel is a transitory thing....your feelings will cycle and evolve and it is almost impossible to predict where you will ‘end up’. Which is normal too.
I’m not sure that detachment necessarily erases all of the old love tbh. What it does do, what you are trying to do, is change the nature of your attachment to your Xh. Detachment vs attachment, not love vs not love.
The other thing that definitely does seem to be true is that detachment can prevent love turning to hatred or disgust bc all those expectations and emotions that come with attachment....to a person, to an outcome, to a set of ‘shoulds’.....make it hard to turn off our own emotional taps or find a calmer place to stand or look back at our own lives or accept the realities of our new ones. The closer we are ‘hooked’, the harder it is imho to keep some compassion or grace....which might be important to you in terms of the kind of human you want to be.....bc these folks behave in ways that are far from loveable and not easy to respect.  ::)

So, how you feel is common for LBS. Trust that you will figure it out as you go and find a way to feel about your xh and your old marriage that will eventually feel appropriate to you.
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« Last Edit: September 22, 2021, 07:07:36 AM by Treasur »
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.
Healing and growing found here https://littleplotbythesea.wordpress.com

"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

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#39: September 22, 2021, 08:26:45 AM
Well said Treasur.

Quote
remind yourself that however you feel is a transitory thing....your feelings will cycle and evolve and it is almost impossible to predict where you will ‘end up’. Which is normal too.
I’m not sure that detachment necessarily erases all of the old love tbh. What it does do, what you are trying to do, is change the nature of your attachment to your Xh. Detachment vs attachment, not love vs not love.

There really isn't anyway to predict how you will feel as time moves forward, but by detaching you will be able to be comfortable and not so triggered by him.

So many years together don't just get erased. Memories and future special events and anniversary dates will bring up emotions.

The love I have for my husband has never gone away. It has however changed. But love, however one defines that, is still very much there for him. And indeed, I see that he still has love for me as well.

Not everyone will have this experience and perhaps falling in love with another person helps "stop loving" your spouse....I am not convinced.

I also think that it depends on so many factors and especially what the relationship was like throughout your years together. For some, there were problems, struggles and selfishness....for others, each day was a gift.

Therapy will help you explore your feelings as your progress. Journalling may be helpful to you for there is a great deal to  unravel.

I recently was reacquainted with the song White Flag by Dido. It tells the story of love that remains, even long after the relationship is over. It helps me to understand that feeling the way I do is ok and that loving him doesn't mean I cannot live a good and happy life.

A few of the lyrics:

"I know you think that I shouldn't still love you
Or tell you that
But if I didn't say it, well I'd still have felt it
Where's the sense in that?

And when we meet
Which I'm sure we will
All that was there
Will be there still
I'll let it pass
And hold my tongue
And you will think
That I've moved on

I will go down with this ship
And I won't put my hands up and surrender
There will be no white flag above my door
I'm in love and always will be"

You are doing well. Keep expressing your thoughts and feelings and be gentle with  yourself.


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"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

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#40: September 22, 2021, 08:42:53 AM
Quote
So, how you feel is common for LBS. Trust that you will figure it out as you go and find a way to feel about your xh and your old marriage that will eventually feel appropriate to you

Treasur-I agree. I am just glad to feel like I am finally moving forward and no longer have expectations. I think that is the biggest change. Looking for change, light from the tunnel. I don’t care. I am not needing to look or watch for it anymore. There is a calm in that. At least for now….I am sure I still have love for him and the past, but not for who he is now or at least at this time. I do understand the cycling. The rollercoaster, so I am always aware that tomorrow is another day, but for now I feel a huge change that I have not felt before.

Xyzcf- great song and so appropriate. I felt this song for 10 months. We shall see if I cycle back? I guess it would take a change in him to find out. I never say never, because a love so deep is always there somewhere. As my therapist said. “ you don’t easily abandon” No, once I love, I love. The difference is…he is not the one I loved right now

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« Last Edit: September 22, 2021, 10:20:01 AM by Tornup »
H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

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#41: September 22, 2021, 09:24:44 AM
Quote
I am just glad to feel like I am finally moving forward and no longer have expectations.
Glad to hear you feel that you are making progress, Tornup, but you might be at the stage of wanting to be at x point so much that you are not quite as honest with yourself about the fact that you are at y point instead.....
Why do I say so?
Bc your posts about xh are far far from detached (perhaps understandably) but truthfully that is how they sound
Which is ok bc that is how the process of detachment goes and we’ve all been there, so we’re not judging
But it is patently BS to say you no longer have expectations....even just based on your last week of posts....or that you are the kind of detached you say you are, Shazam, in the space of a couple of days.
Why does that matter? Bc you don’t need to pretend to us, we won’t like you any better or worse if you do. And more importantly bc it is very difficult to heal messy bits if you aren’t at least honest with yourself about their existence.
I’m sure you will get there but BS won’t help you get there any quicker..... :) (although understanding why you need to do so, to make declarations or put a pretty face on something that just sucks, might  :) )

I wish you well, Tornup. I’m going to be on HS less so may not be around for the next stage in your evolution, but I wish you oodles of good things.
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T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.
Healing and growing found here https://littleplotbythesea.wordpress.com

"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

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#42: September 22, 2021, 09:27:31 AM
Quote
Xyzcf- great song and so appropriate. I felt this song for 10 months. We shall see if I cycle back? I guess it would take a change in him to find out.

In my own case, I never cycled away. Really nothing he did changed the love I feel for him. This is more of an unconditional/agape kind of love but again, this is not the case for everyone.
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"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

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#43: September 22, 2021, 10:25:43 AM
Quote
But it is patently BS to say you no longer have expectations....even just based on your last week of posts....or that you are the kind of detached you say you are, Shazam, in the space of a couple of days
the change has literally been in 2 days. Seeing him first time and spending time with him. The wedding stress over, so many things. I never lie to myself or put on a front. I am brutally honest to a fault. I feel a huge change. Again, it is how I feel. Can it change? Yes! I don’t trust my feelings at times. Just like I don’t trust XH, but I feel a huge calm, disconnect and no need to snoop or contact. I’m confused by it myself.

We will see if it lasts or like you said it is a cycle. I am curious myself, to be honest 🤪😜
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H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

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#44: September 27, 2021, 04:25:11 PM
Journaling this very rare  initiated conversation with XH. He called me last week to talk about some work issues he is having. I was surprised to get a call as he normally never calls or reaches out, but he normally always responds. I gave my thoughts on the situation as I worked for the same company and boss for decades. He said he is thinking about leaving the company and looking to see what else is out there. I said not sure in your state mentally that is a smart move. He feels undermined at work.

In the same conversation he stated that what ever else I wanted from the condo to let him know while he still had the truck. He has two new vehicles. What is interesting is the OW has a car that would not make a 100 mile drive. When I asked if he was giving it to her he said NOoooooooo. He was thinking of selling it. He then wanted to make sure I got whatever I wanted from the condo as he didn’t think he would be around much longer. I asked if that was another suicidal threat? He said no, just a feeling.

It is our D14 who passed from cancer  bday Coming up which is the start of his major decline normally. October through March, her death. Of course he is already in turmoil, so cant imagine how he will make it through the next 6 months.  He said he is starting to have the nightmares of the last moment we had with her trying to save her life with CPR.

XH is also trying to figure out what he is doing with his life. He said he could no longer keep up traveling back and forth to the OW on weekends but they also had never spent any downtime to know how they would be living together, but she is pressuring him. Well, no turning back if she moves in as she would be moving states and giving up her job. First time he has stated he thought he may love her, but also said he could live with out her and he would not be devastated if it was over. Makes no sense. The MLC mind is boggling???

I personally feel at this  point he should move her in. Live real life. Maybe that would then determine  once and for all what is happening. He is so suicidal yet trying to make these decisions. My kids cant stand the OW and that he says weights on him.  He also stated it was very hard that all my family was being so nice at the wedding. It was painful as he doesn't deserve it. He also stated I was the only one that he didn’t feel uncomfortable with at the wedding.  I said interesting. How did you feel around me. He said I don’t know how I feel about you. Hmmmmm

Also, he said when he had to come to the rehearsal party at our house that the house seems to be getting further and further away when he approaches. I assume that means his attachment and family slipping away?

Anyways, very strange to get a call and the call was even stranger.
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« Last Edit: September 27, 2021, 05:00:06 PM by Tornup »
H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

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#45: September 28, 2021, 02:30:56 AM
I imagine, Tornup, that you will have your own emotions on your daughter’s birthday. I hope that they are at a balancing point now that allows you to feel joy about who she was as well as sorrow at her loss.

Quote
very strange to get a call and the call was even stranger.

I hope that you will find yourself reflecting with a little time and distance on this. Less on the content perhaps and more on what you got from having it that was enough to warrant your engaging in it.
I don’t want to give you a hard time about it. Often tbh these experiences, and our later reflections on them, are part of the fuel for changing our own perspectives and responses. And we reach that point when we reach it. And it can be useful to see our challenges in other people’s stories which is why I suspect there are lots of folks on HS who read but do not post.

All I will say is that taking part in this conversation does not fit your previously posted intentions of limiting contact after the wedding and detaching more from his travails....and not much you posted about it sounded as if it was about you as opposed to about him. But you did it for a reason that seemed worthwhile to you i’d guess.

Sometimes we find useful things in that gap between what we say and what we do. In seeing that if we keep doing the same, it is rational to guess that we might simply get more of the same and we might not create the kind of changes we want or need for ourselves. I know I did.
And, as I will be around here less, I wish you well with whatever it is you are trying to craft for your own life.
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T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.
Healing and growing found here https://littleplotbythesea.wordpress.com

"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

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Stopping the insanity
#46: September 28, 2021, 05:43:58 AM
Treasur- My end goal is to be at least friends. We went through a tragic death of our daughter and it does throw an extra element of empathy in there that I struggle with. We had a 30 year marriage. I do feel if he moves the OW in that will be a total cut off for me and maybe that is why I am not totally against that. What I do know is I did not contact him. He contacted me. Which he never does. i had told him I would not be contacting him, but if he felt he needed me that it would be his place to be the one to reach out.  If he contacts me I will engage. I know i have been counseled and read disengage. I cant seem to not do that. I feel differently, but I cant seem to totally just disengage.   As my therapist says “you do not abandon easily” she is right.

Right now the biggest thing I notice is I let him talk and I engage less and I am not rattled. I am concerned for him getting through these months as they are always very difficult for him. I worked through them many years ago. Doesn’t mean I am over her death, but I have learned that it is what it is and it is not my fault. He has not got there. I don't want him to do something harmful to himself. I don't want that tragedy for our family on top of my daughters death.

I am traveling with friends and meeting new people and feel things are continuing to shift. I feel I am detaching in a way that I am not as affected by him, not needing to call him. I do still feel a sense of obligation to make sure he is ok if he needs me.  I do feel it is hard for me to totally detach ( even though I need to and know it is best for him and me) because I am then only one he feels he can cry and tell his darkest thoughts. If he would get to a doctor I think I could detach more. I told my therapist I need help with this and she said we will work with me on detachment. I see her today.

I think for me I am not letting life stand still. I do not think of him 24/7 anymore. When I think of him it is not in terms of wanting him back, but is he ok and what  is he doing that affects my family. Working for the same company for decades and knowing everyone also adds some stress for me and my kids. The gossip and fall from grace for our family. Maybe that is the element that I feel the need to be “in the know” I want to see it coming head on and not blindsided from behind. I feel humiliation by his actions may be a big part for me. I need to accept that if it all come out it is his humiliation and not mine or my kids. Deep down nobody knows what he has been through however and I also hate he will be personally destroyed by his actions and how others view him.

I  am at peace for the most part in my life. I’m starting to make future plans and creating goals and they don’t include him. That is taking the focus away from him and on to me. It’s been 10 months and I feel like I am calm and ok where I am for the most part. I could be worse. No more anxiety and my blood pressure is back down to normal, so headed in the right direction.

I understand what I journal may seem jumbled. I feel that is normal. I do feel what ever I journal, but then things can shift by an event or a moment. That is the rollercoaster. What I definitely know is I feel SO much better. So, no matter what I know I am headed in the right direction. Maybe it is taking longer for me to DETATCH in the way I should. I wish I knew why, but I just have never been good at letting people go ever.

I just went to a NFL game with 5 friends this weekend. One was my college boyfriend. I remain friends with people who I have shared time in my life. My XH I spent 30 years with. I think I have some talking about this with my therapist.

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H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

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Stopping the insanity
#47: September 28, 2021, 05:59:40 AM
Quote
My end goal is to be at least friends.

I suspect, put most simply, you are in a process of working out what kind of friend he is now, what he offers you as a friend given that, what your measure of friendship is, why and what you are prepared to offer as a friend or not in the circumstances which are not so reciprocal perhaps. And what shape or role he will now have in your head and life.

Which is understandable and normal as you say? But not always so straightforward after a long marriage and friendship that someone else unilaterally chose to change. So glad that your IC will be helping you figure this stuff out.
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T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.
Healing and growing found here https://littleplotbythesea.wordpress.com

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Stopping the insanity
#48: September 28, 2021, 06:34:55 AM
Quote
It’s been 10 months and I feel like I am calm and ok where I am for the most part.

Quote
Maybe it is taking longer for me to DETATCH in the way I should. I wish I knew why, but I just have never been good at letting people go ever.

Perhaps the word "friends" doesn't adequately express what we mean for the type of relationship we wish to have with someone we spent 30 plus years with and have children with.

Some MLCers remain in contact and indeed will share things with us that they do not feel "safe" sharing with others.  The visualization of being a lighthouse comes to mind, because in their eyes, they know that they can trust us.

There is not necessarily going to be any reciprocal "friendship" but that doesn't mean we have to shut them out totally from our lives to be able to heal or to detach. It means we are very realistic about what contact with them is.

As you have stated, he contacts you. You are not calling him for help/advice but you care deeply about him and see him with some serious mental health/depression even potentially suicide ideation.

One of the absolute best things my therapist told me as I struggled with "is it better for me to not have any contact with him" was she said " you do not have to make a decision about that in stone, you can choose to see him one day and not another. That is totally in your control and you can change your mind from one day to the next".

In working with this, I found freedom and became much calmer about the way things are between us.

You are building your life with all the GALing stuff and you are engaged in therapy. It has only been 10 months.

May I suggest that the word "detach" is something that has various degrees for each of us. Listening to him, showing that you still care about him, even the fact that you were a part of the business for long does have implications for you. You don't just wipe it all away and have a clean slate to work from. This was you life for a very long time.

Acceptance to me is a much better way than "detach"....sometimes people use the phrase "doormat" when we choose to remain in contact with our spouse. It is not necessarily so.

This is a choice we get to make, although in some cases the choice is made for us in that the MLCer becomes a vanisher and so there is no contact. But for those who remain in touch with us, the choice is truly ours concerning how we wish to proceed forward.

Glad you are getting out with people. It takes time in therapy to work through so much...give yourself time for all of this. 10 months is a very short time to resolve anything about the ending of our marriages.

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« Last Edit: September 28, 2021, 06:37:01 AM by xyzcf »
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

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Stopping the insanity
#49: September 28, 2021, 07:10:38 AM
Xyzcf-
thank you & YES!! He is an on and off. I honestly did all the contacting for the most part for past 5 months. This is one of the few times he has contacted me. He is an escape and avoid. He cuts people out and doesn't look back. I dont think there is any friend that I would not pick up the phone for. I am trying to be more thoughtful on our conversations ( when they happen, which is rate now) that I am responding that I can feel peace when the conversation is over.
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H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

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Stopping the insanity
#50: September 29, 2021, 12:28:50 PM
There is a change occurring and I am not sure what it is or means. Last night I got an email from
My XH with a utube video of mask singer performances we liked with a “watch this” It was then followed by an email of linkin park rendition of Numb. When I responded and said it was a beautiful haunting version, but did he feel that listening to that was putting him in a better place he responded with the below

I know Chester was dealing with his own demons.   His songs have completely different meanings to me now.
I thought that one was about a girlfriend or wife,  now I know it's about the voice in your head. I feel I understand and can relate, and I know he lost his battle with his demons.  So it's okay.  I listen to his music, I watch old Robin Williams skits.I see things and hear things I never heard before”

I feel I was working on pulling away. Not always well, but making progress non the less. I also have been calm and unaffected, so not sure what is happening. I just had my therapy session and  asked about how does disconnect work when someone is so suicidal. At the week of our D14 bday who passed whos death started his decline and depression. I am torn between trying to continue my process of disconnect and being the only person he opens up to and responsible to get him through.


My therapy session next week will need to fully be focused on this. Im really getting confused on his all of a sudden need to connect. My of course issue of being a savior and trying to disconnect from that. My therapist did acknowledge that it is a difficult place to be in when a depressed person reaches out and you know you are the sole person that they do tell everything to as far as their frame of depression.

I am in some way glad that he is reaching out and sharing he is struggling rather than hurt himself, but again it makes it confusing for me to not then wonder what that means. He also called and filled me in on more work distress and some plans for S28 he was planning and when I forgot something I called him back and he did not answer. I left a message instead to avoid another call, so that actually worked out. Then he actually called me back and said he was sorry he missed my call he was giving himself a shot and couldn’t stop to pick up the phone. I informed him that is fine I went ahead and left a message so he didn’t have to call back. He said ok. Should I hang up and go listen to it instead? And I laughed and said no thats ok. He also laughed. It was a nice glimpse of the old him. I haven't had many glimpses, so that was short but sweet. 

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« Last Edit: September 29, 2021, 12:53:47 PM by Tornup »
H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

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Nas

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Stopping the insanity
#51: September 29, 2021, 01:09:56 PM
This may seem like just semantics, but I'm wondering if you said the word "disconnect" or "detach" to your therapist, and whether she used the same word.
There's a difference that sort of matters.
To detach means to separate yourself from the outcome. Your state of mind is not attached to his state of mind; you're two separate beings with your own thoughts, feelings and lives.

To disconnect means to basically unplug. Remove the power supply. (Yes, it can also mean a lack of connection, but even that's different than being detached.) I tried to quote the beginning of your post but it seems to be missing, but it said something about he sent you a YouTube video of a Linkin Park song and you responded by saying "Do you think it's good for your state of mind to be listening to that haunting song?"
That's not removing a power supply, that's giving power to something. I'm not equipped to advise anyone on anything, let alone on a situation that involves someone who has expressed suicidal thoughts in the past. So please know I'm just asking these questions as food for thought and wondering if your therapist touched on it: your role in this wasn't just the outlet he turned to when he shared the song. You plugged in the power supply (connect vs disconnect) when you asked him a direct question that seemed to have a goal of getting him to open up about his emotional state. This could be a very good jumping off point for your conversation with your therapist, because the issue is not how do you respond when he reaches out to overtly speak about his state of mind, but instead maybe should you be prodding him to speak about his state of mind or should you simply say, "I love that song, thanks for sharing it with me."

And maybe your therapist will say the same thing she already said, but I do think there's a difference between him speaking unprovoked and him speaking in response to your pointed question. Again, he may have eventually said what he said anyway. I'm not saying anything is right, wrong, good, bad or anything else. I'm just saying that what he shared didn't really do much for you except make you feel like you went backwards and caused you to worry and also wonder about how to interpret what he said about looking at the song lyrics differently now.

"I thought that one was about a girlfriend or a wife..." - this statement from him gives you no insight into his state of mind or his thought processes, so honestly, looking at it as an outsider, you asked him a pointed question about his state of mind and what you got out of it was a statement that gives you no clarity but does give you something new to monkey brain over. So really no overall benefit, just a brief exchange of words between you two that in the moment may have felt like it was helping but depleted you in the end.  Again, not right or wrong, just something to think about with your therapist as you move forward and decide how these interactions make you feel and what you hope to get out of it. Hope that makes sense.
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Stopping the insanity
#52: September 29, 2021, 01:47:37 PM
Quote
There is a change occurring and I am not sure what it is or means. Last night I got an email from
My XH with a utube video of mask singer performances we liked with a “watch this” It was then followed by an email of linkin park rendition of Numb. When I responded and said it was a beautiful haunting version, but did he feel that listening to that was putting him in a better place he responded with the below

Nas- here is the beginning. Not sure why it doesn’t show for you. Yes, I have been trying to detach more. Only respond if he contacts me. He never does and now he has twice. Since the song was a dark song I didn’t feel I could respond back that it was a good song. He sent it and said he was listening to it alot. I felt that was a reach out to me to understand he is struggling more than normal, which with D14 bday on Friday that is not a suprise. I have always responded with questions as he is not seeing a therapist.

This happened after therapy and actually he kept emailing through 3 am. I did talk to my therapist about being his therapist. I cant make him get help, but I also don't want him harming himself. He has a history of cutting and then with his recent comment about not being around much longer it makes me not sure of how to handle the sudden contact.

I am the only one he talks to about where he is in his head, but I also understand I should no longer be that person and it is a terribly exhausting place, but I would not respond to anyone in need and specially not the father of my children and H of 30 years.
I wish I had another therapy session this week just to get guidance on this. I am trying to stay as vague as possible, but want him to feel heard.

I don’t know if I should just be responding like he is the local bank teller talking to me or more engaged. I just don't want to cause more anxiety or harm to him. Is it fair that he puts me in this position? No, he should be talking to the woman he is trying to figure out if he will let move in with him. He did state that since he only sees her on Saturday every other week he is aware he probably really doesn’t know her. He is just all over the place.

I will continue to not reach out and only respond if he contacts me. I want to help him get through this. If not responding with any detail and more unemotional and unprodding. He has always told me when he gets to a bad place he contacts me because I always make him think about things he needs to think about by the questions I ask. I think that is why I responded the way I did. Yet, in the back of my head it is detach detach detach and make him work through it himself. Just not sure with a on/off semi vanisher if that will work. I really don’t know
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« Last Edit: September 29, 2021, 01:54:34 PM by Tornup »
H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

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Re: Stopping the insanity
#53: September 29, 2021, 04:35:14 PM
Tornup,

I'm sorry I have so much I would like to say but I'll just keep as..trust me...you can not save him. No matter how hard you try. No matter how much you care.
Even if he appears to be suicidal.  He chose this for himself.

You are not his keeper nor a qualified therapist, nor his wife. He fired you from that job.

If he is coming to you for support, then give it to him if he kicks the ow to the curb.  Otherwise he is just cake eating and wants both of you. He is not your friend right now, he's not even her friend right now.

He is using you to comfort him, and her as a girlfriend who he takes on fun trips and out to expensive dinners.

Which would you really rather be?

Let him go and allow her to deal with supporting him.  She may just get tired of it.
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A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

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Stopping the insanity
#54: September 29, 2021, 06:58:29 PM
Thunder-
 I know I cant save him. He will do what he will do. I am trying to live with if I don’t respond,even though it will not be my fault will I be able to live with it if he does do something to myself. It’s manipulative. I totally get it. I am tugging and pulling with myself. My Daughters death is an element in this that I just cant explain. I hate that I even am in this situation. I wish he would have been stronger.
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H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

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Stopping the insanity
#55: September 30, 2021, 04:41:21 AM
XH messaged me again last night after getting home from work. He had told me previously he was having a talk with his boss and that would determine whether he started looking else where for another job. “ Didn't get to talk about $h!te, he got called upstairs, and then I did, so now he is driving over to have the meeting on Friday” I responded “ Well, to bad he couldn't meet tomorrow. At least a total distraction? Hope the upstairs meeting went ok. Rough week”

So, he normally does not work on our daughter who passes bday or the anniversary of her death and this is the first one he will spend working and without us. Now, he is having a conversation with his boss also on this emotional day that he is using to determine if he wants to stay in a position that he worked decades to achieve. I feel with no meds and especially the mood stabilizers that kept him with a cooler head this meeting could end badly.

From the outside it seems he is just wanting to have everything self destruct and come to a head. Trying tp wrap up his life. He did say on the previous phone conversation that he felt his D30 was set but that he worries with him gone S28 would not be protected in his position. I states he was a grown man and it wasnt job to protect S30 position. I did point out to him that it is very odd that he is worried in some aspects his affect on his absence on his children's lives, but his presence is  missing while he is here and also his decisions he has made in the past year disregarded the affect on them. His reply… a defeated “yeah”

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H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

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Stopping the insanity
#56: October 01, 2021, 05:21:25 AM
Today would have been D14 27th birthday. Hard to believe we have missed that many years and moments and her tragic quick death ( diagnosed and died in a month)that has got us here. There are moments when I resent her death for the then death of my marriage and our family that was. That is some horrendous guilt in itself. It’s not her fault she died. She was just that loved. Love can bring much pain and destruction when it is lost. She is a huge missing element in our lives and her loss is felt by us all, but avoided the most by XH in his MLC.

My friend from HS this weekend asked me how I was coping with the divorce and loss.  She asked if I had watched the moving “the starling” She said it did not get good reviews, but she thought of me and XH and thought it is very relatable to some aspects of where he is. I decided to watch it yesterday and found myself bawling like a baby. It was good to get those emotions out.

I have our family home videos all on a service accessible by phone and internet. My XH had asked for pictures and videos and I sent the link and sign on. This is her first bday that we have not spent together as a family doing something in her honor. Normally we serve dinner for families at Ronald McDonald house, but this year due to covid I had to cater dinner in. I got a text from XH that he was watching videos and that they were very very hard for him to watch, but thanked me for them.

Woke up to my phone ringing at 1 am and it was XH, but by the time I realized I wasn’t dreaming and really woke up he had hung up. I texted and asked if he was ok. He said “ I think I will make it” I responded that if he needed to talk let me know or if he just needed a live connection with someone he could call and we don't have to talk. He responded “I will”.  I then sent him a puzzle where you have to locate people and animals. A sketch but with the where’s waldo aspect. Something for him to do, but distract from his head. I left it at that. I’m sure he thought I would call, but I didn’t and don’t feel the need to call or desire. Communication via text and email is more disconnected for me emotionally when it is needed.

XH is picking up the dogs next weekend and keeping them for a week and bringing them back while I and the kids go to a NFL game out of town. My sister was to watch them, but XH was very upset as he had been looking forward to it. I’m not sure if he is trying to emotionally reconnect with the dogs and the kids, but that does seem to be happening. However, with his negative self inflicted need to hurt himself emotionally and physically I often wonder if this is a goodbye as well. He is a self torturer of his own soul. A ruminating escape and avoider.

What I do know is something is changing with him. Not sure if it is for the better or worse. He seems to be in a much worse depressed and desperate state and trying to again make huge life decisions while in it. That has never worked in his favor. Although I am in slight contact with him. Mostly by text or email. I feel no anxiety and I am not affected negatively after the contact. That has been a huge change for me. I hope to work more with my IC on letting myself detach without guilt.

I myself watched some of the videos yesterday including our wedding. Wow, I did not remember the officiant saying what he said and more than once. When do the vows he stopped and said when you say you will love, honor and respect each other I really want you to think about that in times of trouble. When obstacles come your way to remember what those words mean and to sot down and talk about your troubles and always remember what the meaning is behind loving and respecting someone. To commit to always doing what needs to be done to honor those words. I did that. I have continued to do that. I am proud of myself for holding true to those words and their meaning.


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« Last Edit: October 01, 2021, 06:15:16 AM by Tornup »
H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

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Stopping the insanity
#57: October 01, 2021, 06:39:21 AM
These significant days, your daughter's birthday, bring back a flood of memories, emotions and feelings. You do well to recognize them and allow yourself to experience whatever feelings are there.

Be totally gentle with your self.

After BD, I told my husband that this is the absolute worse thing that could have happened and he said no, losing a child would be worse. Actually, I don't think you can compare "loss" and one thing I learned when I worked with children who were dying is that there is no time table for grief.

It is also very common with the loss of a child, for parent's marriages to end as I am sure you know.

Quote
said when you say you will love, honor and respect each other I really want you to think about that in times of trouble. When obstacles come your way to remember what those words mean and to sot down and talk about your troubles and always remember what the meaning is behind loving and respecting someone. To commit to always doing what needs to be done to honor those words. I did that. I have continued to do that. I am proud of myself for holding true to those words and their meaning.

Our husbands have lost their ability to sit down and talk to us in a way to work out what caused our marriages to end. This will always be a mystery to me. Your husband does express some of what is going on in him to you. I never got any of that, still don't.

I have thought long and hard about the permanency of marriage  and I always come back to the same answer for me...like grief, there is no time table for how long I will stand. For others, things are seen differently.

As I always say, you must do what is true to yourself. The song by Jewel "Hands" repeats the phrase "In the end, only kindness matters"...when he reaches out to me, when he wants to be included in our family's gatherings I feel that this man who I married and love will always be welcomed into our lives.

Today is our 44th wedding anniversary. That cannot be changed. Each year I reflect deeply on "us" and pray for him and for our family. I am at peace with it now.

Prayers for your daughter and your family on this day of her birth.
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"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

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#58: October 02, 2021, 11:01:49 AM
Quote
After BD, I told my husband that this is the absolute worse thing that could have happened and he said no, losing a child would be worse. Actually, I don't think you can compare "loss" and one thing I learned when I worked with children who were dying is that there is no time table for grief

I think I even stated this early on in my journaling. Somehow I am able to look at my children grow and start their own families and their father and I no longer become their main focus. What remains is the beginning. The two of you. After the loss of my daughter I grew to appreciate my XH more. I knew then that if I at least I had him all would be ok. Unfortunately his loss went a different way. He grew away from me and into a depression he was unwilling to share until it started to surface in so many bad coping mechanisms. So, here we are.

Yesterday went ok for the most part until I had a conversation with my XH about the first D14 bday not spent as a family. What ended up surfacing in the conversation just brought me more confusion. We ended up talking about how unbelievably normal our interaction at D30 wedding was and it was almost as if we were not divorced and nothing had happened. He agreed with a response that was emotional. He said it was very hard to watch the home videos but was thankful for them. He also appreciated me sharing the out pouring of love sent in memory of her on social media ( he is not on social media -what a blessing)

He went into talking about not knowing what direction he was going with work or personal. He seemed all over the place with having many uncertainties with OW and even knowing her or her true self to his talk about still even with urology appointments and meds not be able to perform. He finally has admitted to trying and it was a humiliating experience and did not work.  He said he basically didn't care who it was with. It could be anyone at this point he just wants things to “work” . His urologist is now telling him it is psychological. I don’t know how much this plays into everything, but the fact this woman seems to stay even though he cant perform, had bouts of depression ( he just tells her it is work stress) the relationship is secret due to work and he is not introducing her to any family seems to be his reason for staying with her. She is letting him just be. I can not enable or compete with that.

He did state that she and her 2 daughters came through last weekend and came to the condo. To hear this was devastating to me. He grilled and they all stayed over. He is not spending time with his own children. It made me angry. Angry that he is not doing the work. That it is easier to spend time with another family than his own. He said he does not want our family back as it was and he is trying to figure out how to move forward. He also states he did not know how he felt about me.

I’m more confused then ever. I feel I get to a place where I feel I will be ok. Not great. Not over it all, but ok. Then I have these moments of more MLC confusion thrown at me and the reality of this crazy situation hits me straight in the gut. I know I need to just move on and detach from him and this situation. I honestly dont know why I can not keep myself from needing answers that I clearly will not get. I think it is because I feel he does have clarity to some degree, but still just doesn’t want to be fully honest with me or himself. I guess I want him to set me free. Fully set me free. I should just want that for myself. I honestly don’t know what I am looking for to get there.

Feeling confused and back to a point of hopeless. I know I have been here before, so I am hoping tomorrow brings a new light again. Maybe it’s my D14 bday and the realization of her loss in our family and now his weak decisions to further destroy our family. I was raised to be strong and to survive. I resent his weakness now, but I am resenting my weakness at this point. I have never allowed myself to be so weak. The empathetic me wants to hang on. The survivor wants to throw my hand up woth a big FU  to him and move on.
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H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

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#59: October 02, 2021, 11:43:36 AM
I guess I want him to set me free. Fully set me free.



IMO, this is where you take back your power and set yourself free.
He's made all the unilateral decisions that got you to where you are now. Why does he get to be the one to also say when you are free?

His comfort in discussing with you his inability to perform with other women is a pretty good indicator of where his head is at. He's using you as a sounding board - and I mean that literally, because a sounding board is an inanimate object, unlike a wife/ex-wife who is a living, breathing person with feelings. You might feel like he's being vulnerable and opening up to you, but it honestly seems like he's just offloading all his negative thoughts and feelings onto you. He isn't asking you how you are or what you're struggling with.

You don't have to say a big FU to him. There's a very big, powerful non-reactionary middle ground between allowing him to suck you dry emotionally and dramatically telling him just where he can stick his sad tales of ED woes with other women.

He's saying A LOT and he's talking at you, not with you. He has complete access to you and your sympathetic ear, while you have zero reciprocation. These are not relationship-strengthening bonding conversations you're having with him, no matter how much it feels like it. This is him getting his needed emotional release and you getting absolutely nothing but more confusion.
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#60: October 02, 2021, 12:02:32 PM
Quote
I’m more confused then ever. I feel I get to a place where I feel I will be ok. Not great. Not over it all, but ok. Then I have these moments of more MLC confusion thrown at me and the reality of this crazy situation hits me straight in the gut.

Well, MLC is confusing because their words and actions are all over the place and they change from one day to the next. As you said, sometimes he seems more normal but it is very hard for us because we cannot make sense out of their actions.

Your fight/flight/freeze nervous system is on high alert really and it gets triggered easier now. You have had several events, your daughter's wedding, the birthday of your deceased daughter, all of which contribute to emotions and feelings that are in a way somewhat out of our conscious control.

Quote
Feeling confused and back to a point of hopeless. I know I have been here before, so I am hoping tomorrow brings a new light again. Maybe it’s my D14 bday and the realization of her loss in our family and now his weak decisions to further destroy our family. I was raised to be strong and to survive. I resent his weakness now, but I am resenting my weakness at this point. I have never allowed myself to be so weak

Don't be so hard on yourself. You are not being weak at all. You are dealing with a crisis that is poorly understood and with your husband who you love dearly and who you care about his welfare. Because you can see it, his words, his actions, you can see the destruction and being human, that will have an impact on you.

It is not weakness Tornup. There is an innate part of us that wants to protect our families and loved ones and it is not easy to turn that off, if at all possible.

You have already learned some effective coping mechanisms and adaptive behavior to help yourself in your interactions with him.

Please continue to write about your thoughts and feelings. It's a good way to process what is happening and to release some of the stress that their crisis causes in us.

There really is no simple or fast way for us to heal.

MLC is in a way, the gift that keeps on giving.

Many MLCer's have ED problems. Some have medical conditions or are on meds that can cause ED. It is not uncommon for them to tell us about their inability to perform.
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« Last Edit: October 02, 2021, 12:06:49 PM by xyzcf »
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

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#61: October 02, 2021, 12:16:09 PM
Quote
he's talking at you, not with you.
This ^^^
We can see this clear as a pikestaff bc a) we are looking from a detached distance, b) most of us have experienced something similar and c) we are not you.
This is unlikely to change until you accept that this is the reality of what is actually happening right now. Your xh isn’t going to change it bc he is getting something from it that suits him.
And it may be common for MLCers, but that does not make it ok.
What do you think stops you from seeing it as clearly as we can, Tornup?
That’s the first step....seeing it as it is. No matter how painful it is, seeing the factual truth of it.

The second step is figuring out what you are getting from it that motivates you to keep playing your part in it. And hopefully your IC can help you figure this out bc it will be about you, not about him; your thoughts, your assumptions, your needs and your expectations and wishes.

If it helps, all of us reached a point when we had to figure this out and it can be a bit messy and uncomfortable. Could be lots of reasons....fear, codependency, arrogance, control, needing to be needed, self worth, abandonment anxiety, displacement activity, grief bargaining, denial.....we’ve all had a chew on most of these  ::)....figuring out why you engage in something that a goodly bit of you wants to be freed from bc you know it isn’t good for you takes a bit of time and courage. And you don’t have to share it here lol. But these are the key and the door out, Tornup....step 1, seeing the unvarnished truth of how it currently is and step 2, figuring out what you are getting from doing it.

That’s how you choose to free yourself. Step 3. If you want to do so enough.
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T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.
Healing and growing found here https://littleplotbythesea.wordpress.com

"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

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#62: October 02, 2021, 12:42:49 PM
Quote
fear, codependency, arrogance, control, needing to be needed, self worth, abandonment anxiety, displacement activity, grief bargaining, denial....
ALL OF THIS and a little bit of shock still that we are even here after 30 years of marriage. Sometimes it is still a twighlight zone moment for me.  I have also told him we spin because I talk at him and not with him. He does not communicate easily. I also don’t think he freely discusses anything. I self torment myself with questions. Maybe I am trying to subconsciously push myself to detach . When will it be enough?

Well, today is enough. We had a conversation today. He said when he is in a bad place the voice he hears in his head is always me telling him to DIE!!!! He said he knows it is all him. Just in his messed up head, but he can’t stop it. It is nothing I have done, but he can’t stop it. He said today it has been happening since our daughter died in 2009. This was beyond devastating to hear. I can’t begin to explain how crushing this has been, yet a draw the line in the sand moment. I told him I don’t think I can recover from hearing that.

What I did tell him was that he hears my voice because my voice is the only one that matters (IMO from him telling me this many times). He is going to need to figure out why the one person that has shown him unconditional love no matter what is the voice he hears that is trying to destroy him. He does not feel worthy of love and all he feels is guilt and failure. Today, I took control back. I said ENOUGH !!! I can’t be the voice in your head. I cant be the savior and the destroyer of your life. I am removing myself from your life starting today. I told him that if he gets help and he works through this crisis that he can reach out to me and see if I will welcome him back in my life, but I am done. I can’t live with that burden. Today was just a devastating blow for me.

Sometimes the hardest things to hear are the catalyst to get you to make the changes that need to be made to move forward. Good lord I hope so.
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« Last Edit: October 02, 2021, 01:08:09 PM by Tornup »
H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

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#63: October 02, 2021, 12:57:58 PM
Quote
He said today it has been happening since our daughter died in 2009. This was beyond devastating to hear. I can’t begin to explain how crushing this has been,

I am sorry he said that. Once said, those words remain in our mind..there is no way to block them out.

Sometimes it is necessary for our well being to step far back.

I am concerned about his hearing "voices in his head" telling him to die. Would be good if he had a proper psychological assessment but only he can arrange for that.

Take good care.

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"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

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#64: October 02, 2021, 01:33:33 PM
I am sorry too that you had to hear that, Tornup.
I wish I could be right there with you to keep company, but I can’t.
So i’m going to remind you of things you already know but might have forgotten, things I would say if I were there.
This kind of talking isn’t really helping either of you right now. And it is hurting you, so you need to stop.
Just bc your xh said this it does not make it true. And even if it is true in his head right now, it still doesn’t make it true. And it serves no purpose for you to listen to it bc there is nothing you can do about it.
If you are genuinely concerned that he is a risk to himself or others right now, and know where he is, call the police and ask them to do a wellness check on him.
Take a breath now. Turn your phone off. Take a bath. Take a walk. Eat something simple. Get some sleep. Anything small that will help.
You can start over tomorrow morning bc tomorrow is a new day.
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« Last Edit: October 02, 2021, 01:36:21 PM by Treasur »
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.
Healing and growing found here https://littleplotbythesea.wordpress.com

"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

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#65: October 02, 2021, 02:19:12 PM
I'm sorry you had to hear that, TU. I sincerely hope he can get to a place where he can get the professional help he needs.
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Re: Stopping the insanity
#66: October 02, 2021, 03:46:26 PM
That was in the hurtful/cruel zone of comments. I worry that though you have made that the line in the sand, you will waver. What helped me detach was to think of those signs at factories that say " ____ days with no accidents" and every time there is an accident, they have to start over. Substitute "no contact" for "accidents" and you are on your way to retraining your brain to not reach out to him or allow him to use you for hearing his woes. This does not mean you won´t think about him. I´m 11 years on and the ex still crosses my mind each day, but there is no contact and has not been any since around 2013. My mental well being is much improved as with no contact there can be no more damage done. Hey, you´ve got enough to sort out with all the prior damage.
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me 51
H 51
M 27
BD 1/15/ 10 then BD 8/21/10
D final 8/13

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#67: October 03, 2021, 07:07:23 AM
The last message I received from my XH last night “ I am the root of all that is wrong,  it is your voice, but it's my thoughts, I don't deserve to keep going”  Yesterday was a horrific day for me and obviously for him. Today however is a new day. I am truly ready to detach and move forward. Yesterday was just to much and I realized for the first time that he is unreachable and what he is throwing at me is to much for me to bare any longer. He has some insight and clarity, but still unable to deal with the pain that involves working through it and frankly he is in much worse space than I even realized.

 In conversation he stated that the OW and both daughters traveling through stayed at his place over night last weekend. He never met one daughter and only briefly had met the other. They stayed in the spare room while he and OW slept together. These are grown women in their 20’s. Sleeping in a strange mans house. I don’t know but it made me realize first these women are obviously used to their mother and random men. My adult children would not have stayed in a strange mans home over night. My XH would never put his kids in that position. It gave me so much clarity on his decision making and confusion. Also the caliber of OW he has chosen to associate with. It also was painful to hear him spending time with someone else's kids when he cant face his own. It was a serious light bulb moment for me. He has lost all reasoning and is still clearly in escape and avoid. The difference is this revelation made me slightly disgusted. Actually really disgusted.

I am very scared. What this new detachment will mean for me. I have been in this marriage for 3 decades and the last decade has all been about loss and survival. I feel a little gutted that I thought there was a small part of him I could reach and now that I realize at this point there is nothing,  that I have wasted so much time and effort for not. I don't know after fighting and caring for someone above myself for so long what my time will be like with the focus on me. I know I will have a whole new mental space available however to work on me.

 There is some deep sadness in letting go. Feeling you failed someone you loved and yourself. Yet, there is hope that I can finally free myself of that. Of the responsibility of someone else's survival and happiness. To let go of the thought they are unhappy due to me. I know that I gave it my all. 160% my all. He can’t appreciate it, but I have to be ok with it. I know my children know I did everything I could. I know somewhere in his messed up MLC brain he does also. I think the scariest thing is trying to look to far ahead. I have been fighting for a future together and now I am just fighting for my future and my kids and grandkids. It is all unknown. What I am most looking forward to is relief. Relief of mind, body and soul. To regain all of ME. All the confidence and spirit that made me before this destruction came upon me. I think therapy next week will be the start of better tomorrows. I have HOPE and with hope anything is possible.

It is a tough time to come to this. Right before the holidays. I am going to just start looking at things in a new light. Use all this free energy and headspace to finish the year with my kids with a great holiday season. Going to plan some great memories making days ahead and then start the new year with new hope.
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H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

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#68: October 03, 2021, 07:33:50 AM
With the holidays approaching, new challenges are also going to go along with them. So many memories and traditions that are no more.
Quote
I think the scariest thing is trying to look to far ahead

Taking it day by day. Planning for our future is something I needed to learn to stop doing. Difficult for as you say, 3 decades together and working to save towards our future was over in a flash. To adjust to this requires a great shift in our thinking and much time.

Quote
Yet, there is hope that I can finally free myself of that. Of the responsibility of someone else's survival and happiness. To let go of the thought they are unhappy due to me.

You know, we are not and never should be responsible for someone else's happiness. It's just not possible.

When we see the many things that MLCers will do to try and find "happiness", going from one affair to another, changing jobs, spending lots of money, changing their appearance, turning away from their religion etc.....yet the emptiness remains in them.

Quote
There is some deep sadness in letting go

Yes there is.

On another thread there is a discussion about "acceptance of reality". After a very long time, my heart finally "got it"...this man is not my Beloved husband. I was stuck for a long time because I kept expecting him to be the man I knew for 35 years but the reality is, he has morphed into someone totally different. That realization helped me a great deal to "accept" that not only was my marriage over, but he is not the man I loved and cherished.

Healing happens but it takes time, that dreaded word that was used when I first came to HS but it is true. The process of my healing could not be rushed or speeded up. Therapy helped to uncover the many layers I needed to process, and I suspect there are several I may never uncover.

May you be at peace today.
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"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

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#69: October 04, 2021, 06:00:00 AM
Nas, Treasur, Xyzcf and Forthetrees,

Thank you for helping me through the weekend with so much insight.
Quote
A newbie is going to start out on a roller coaster of emotions and be up and down in their thoughts about possible outcomes, but the initial greeting from a single person on this forum is not going to really factor much into what they choose to do in their individual situation as it evolves and they evolve over time.
this was from a June comment I believe from Treasur on another thread, but so much truth and also not. I have read over and over the advise and believed it to all be true, but yet couldn’t implement it until my mind and heart could agree. Once you do WAKE UP to the reality and stop fooling yourself I think you really not only hear, but see what everyone has been trying to tell you all along. So, everything that is commented does matter. It may not all click at once, but it does click. The biggest thing is when you are truly open to embrace it and strong enough to hear it, thats when it matters the most.

Thank you all for always telling it like it is. Every comment matters in this crazy and heartbreaking situation we find ourselves in.
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H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

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#70: October 04, 2021, 07:37:51 AM
We all get there when we get there, Tornup.
And the vets are just passing the support on that we received, when others saw what we could not at the time.

I think we all understand the need, almost a compulsion tbh, to look for explanations or labels - the whys.
But they can distract us from looking more objectively at the whats of our situation imho.

The former helps longer term perhaps as part of making peace with what happened to us and why.
But the latter is often more useful in the shorter term figuring out what to do and not do in taking care of ourselves....if my spouse is living someplace else or in an affair that they are prioritising over their marriage, or wants a divorce or stops talking to their kids, the factual reality of that does not change bc of the reason for it, does it? It is still happening. And often it is easier to see what we need to do if we try to focus on the observable facts.

I still remember another LBS saying to me ‘well, if my h really wanted to be here with his family, he’d be here. And he isn’t, no matter what he says’. Tough to swallow, but more sane to deal with probably  :)
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T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.
Healing and growing found here https://littleplotbythesea.wordpress.com

"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

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#71: October 04, 2021, 08:14:24 AM
Quote
if my spouse is living someplace else or in an affair that they are prioritising over their marriage, or wants a divorce or stops talking to their kids, the factual reality of that does not change bc of the reason for it, does it? It is still happening. And often it is easier to see what we need to do if we try to focus on the observable facts.

I still remember another LBS saying to me ‘well, if my h really wanted to be here with his family, he’d be here. And he isn’t, no matter what he says’. Tough to swallow, but more sane to deal with probably

/\FACT/\
And it’s not that I or anyone for the matter can’t see that, but we want to put it all on their diminished mindset. Is it all that? That is the question that we hang on to and as you said in the end they are still where they are by choice. We can’t save them or reach their old self. My XH has enough clarity to know he is “messed up” so he has the choice to get help and or connect with his family and he chooses to stay in this place of suffering. Surround himself with strangers that he feels he can have a fresh slate. How crazy that they are worse off, because you can’t escape your mind non matter where you run.

I think also when I realized one minute he is threatening to take his life and 20 minutes later shopping for chocolate covered peanuts in the grocery store while I am in bed not eating for fear of his life, that is when I was like ???? Wait a minute??????  It took so long to stop feeling empathy for him and turn it on me. The manipulation from such a sweet man from the past was not something I guess I wanted to accept was true until I had no choice.

He is not someone I know.  He is not someone capable of any emotional connection with anyone. I have been taken advantage of and taken for granted. He is now solely on his own. His body and his mind. He will have to chose now to deal with it or find a new person to be his scape goat to continue to not help himself, but temporarily relieve his distress when it benefits him on someone else. It will no longer be me.

 There must be such devastation in not feeling love or connection to those people who mean the most to you. I really can’t imagine. Where that used to bring empathy towards him, now it does the opposite for me. I don’t know what the future holds, but what I do know is I would much rather be me than him. I love my family and that alone will carry me through.

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« Last Edit: October 04, 2021, 08:32:54 AM by Tornup »
H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

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Re: Stopping the insanity
#72: October 04, 2021, 08:36:21 AM
He is not someone I know.  He is not someone capable of any emotional connection with anyone.

I have been reading along, you are discovering so much and getting great advice. I just wanted to say THIS realization is so important I would encourage you to print it out and put it somewhere so you can be reminded constantly. I say this because we see our loved ones in the voice and image of what is left, and it is SO HARD to adjust our internal version of that person to who they are now. And until we do we find ourselves in a difficult place.

What you wrote above is what is needed to let that go.
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No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

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Re: Stopping the insanity
#73: October 04, 2021, 10:57:14 AM
He is not someone I know.  He is not someone capable of any emotional connection with anyone.

I have been reading along, you are discovering so much and getting great advice. I just wanted to say THIS realization is so important I would encourage you to print it out and put it somewhere so you can be reminded constantly. I say this because we see our loved ones in the voice and image of what is left, and it is SO HARD to adjust our internal version of that person to who they are now. And until we do we find ourselves in a difficult place.

What you wrote above is what is needed to let that go.

So agree with Marvin here.
Chuckled wrily at the suicidal to chocolate covered peanuts realisation, Tornup. Mine was suicidal then off to the cinema with ow in a completely different city than the one he was supposedly going to drown himself in (but in my case it was months before I knew that from financial disclosures)  ::)
Hope the next time your xh does the same mr sadz, you find yourself with a mental image of chocolate covered peanuts as a healthy aide memoire  :)

The message coming out from your experience - and it might be as useful to others as it hopefully is to you - is that both things can be true. That they are impaired and not necessarily always acting with some deep Machiavellian intent AND that they left us and we need to look after ourselves bc they don’t/won’t/can’t care. As Marvin has said before, the damage to me is just the same if someone runs me down in their car at speed, whether they intended to or not, isn’t it? But it takes us all a while to separate the what’s from the whys and our own excuses for their actions and our own.  ::)
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T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.
Healing and growing found here https://littleplotbythesea.wordpress.com

"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

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Stopping the insanity
#74: October 04, 2021, 11:20:15 AM
Just chiming in to say I agree 100% with Treasur in that if they wanted to be with any of us, they would be.  You will never convince me that these folks are aimlessly wandering in some fictional fog, all the while functioning on another level that allows them to continue to work and carry on "normally" in all other facets of their lives, including starting new relationships with other people.  If they are capable of making those decisions,  surely they would be just as capable to return, if they so desired. 

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No longer waiting on the fog the clear
#75: October 04, 2021, 11:40:31 AM
Yes Marvin!!! I will print and post!!!!!!!!
Treasur- I agree it is both, but in the end it is still a choice to address or not. If he has enough clarity to know something is wrong and accept some accountability then his actions should start to be less manipulative at that point. Yes, the “I will just kill myself “ to shopping for chocolates and cookies??? Plus, he is a diabetic. So, maybe death by sugar? It will be a bit slower one, but it’s a choice 😜🤪. There is something humorous and completely mind boggling about knowing this. He literally messaged when asked if he was ok, “I’m still here” Now my distressed mindset ( that he put me in ) is thinking… are you with a blade in the bathroom still here, in the garage with doors shut in your running car??? Nope, grocery shopping??????? Right then and there I decided I will not be having anymore phone conversations going forward, so will not get pulled into his self pity manipulative ways.

BB- I agree. The rationale is warped. At least in my XH. He takes full accountability when talking to me. It’s all my fault. You did nothing wrong. I’m messed up. Yet, they continue the destruction. They are weak in the end. Easier to escape and avoid. They are not unconscious. They know full and well. They just are compartmentalizing and ignoring when their actions are not in check with who they used to be. At some point depression becomes an excuse for them to avoid working through their disgust with themselves. That is what I see with my XH. The damage is so much. They cant see fixing it, so WTH just keep going and add more.

He is picking up the dogs this weekend and dropping off the next and participating in our family adopt a mile clean up in memory of our daughter. I will let my children do the conversations and I will be cordial but detached. After the next 2 weekends it should be 6 months before we would have to see one another. We do have to communicate on some things that we are tied to, but that will be done on email. I will no longer ask the how are you’s or turn anything personal. I don’t even have to put a plan in play to try and stick to. I do not want to be that fool that is manipulated to exhaustion anymore. I’m better than what I have tolerated. I think I will print what Marvin suggested and add the chocolate to it as a reminder. There is something relieving in turning the chaos in into a bit of humor as well. At least for me :)
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« Last Edit: October 04, 2021, 12:53:20 PM by Tornup »
H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

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Stopping the insanity
#76: October 04, 2021, 01:40:51 PM
Quote
Yet, they continue the destruction. They are weak in the end. Easier to escape and avoid. They are not unconscious. They know full and well. They just are compartmentalizing and ignoring when their actions are not in check with who they used to be. At some point depression becomes an excuse for them to avoid working through their disgust with themselves.

If this is true, then it is not a mid-life crisis. It is impossible to diagnose MLC and many people believe the above. I do not.

I also know that many who find HS have spouses with other issues than MLC. Taking care of yourself is always key regardless of what is causing the disorder.

Other mental health conditions are aided by therapy. I have not seen any MLCer benefit from therapy. They may go to therapy but are not necessarily entering into it to engage in what they may need to discuss.

For the LBSer, it takes a long time to heal and recover. There is no magic button to switch off our feelings, our PTSD, the damage done to our family unit. FTT recently wrote that even though she has not had contact with her husband since 2013, she still thinks about him every day. For many LBSers (not all) they just don't go away from our minds or our hearts because we want them to.

 
Quote
After the next 2 weekends it should be 6 months before we would have to see one another.

I will be interested in seeing what happens, especially with the holidays approaching. This is totally in your control and one phrase that helped me was that in the end the LBSer gets to choose. But those spouses who continue to contact, they don't easily give that up and it takes great determination to say no more...and if we slip.....it doesn't matter...we pick ourselves up and reasses how we want to deal with this person who was a very big part of our lives.and whether it is their "choice" or not, they are clearly in a struggle that is painful and intense and they may not know how to find their way out.

Reading your thread, I was thinking about Santa Claus, what we believed about Santa Claus and how difficult it was to give up that belief, even when we knew, the desire to believe in him still remains...that magic perhaps.

Try not to burden yourself with "absolutes". If you are truly ready to put aside that part of your life, you will find a way to do it..it just might take you more time than you think.
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"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

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Stopping the insanity
#77: October 04, 2021, 02:40:15 PM
Xyzcf- thank you for your thoughts as always. I am torn on whether getting medical therapy helps or not. Of course MLC is a depression as well. What I do know is they have to face things. So whether it is helping themselves by self reflection or outside help something makes them come out of this fog, right?  I think it has been said many times they peak out of the tunnel and slowly deal with their pain as they can only handle so much at a time and that is why it can take so long. I have read many MLC’r that had to go on depression meds to come out of the fog. That can’t normally happen with out talk therapy as well. Not always, but normally. I just know it has been 12 years now since the loss of our daughter and he is at an all time low. Every decision he is making is making him worse.

I do know my XH has enough clarity at moments to know he is hurting himself and others now, but cant seem to break this addictive behavior. He is also obviously in a lot of incredible pain and has no idea where he is going or what he should do. He feels like no place is home, he doesn’t belong anywhere. He wants to come home, but to much damage has been done and he can’t face his family as it is facing his failures and if he has to he can’t survive. Losing his D14 and father 3 months later put him in a mortality check. Then add High pressure job and Health issues. Just the perfect storm. He literally is all over the place. Misses his family, but then may move gf in to the recent revelation that I am the voice in his head even if the thoughts are his. That is a lot of control I have of his brain for someone that is moving on with a gf?
Why I am a thought in his head at all?

I want him to get better. I just don’t think any longer I am of any benefit to him to get there. Once I realized I may be hurting him more than helping him and I am definitely hurting myself it became obvious to me to back away from the situation. He is getting worse and the worse he gets the more I feel he is manipulating me. I will take care of myself and hope he finds his way. I have no idea if he ever finds his way out and ever came knocking on my door how I would feel. Right now I just know I am ready to move ahead with my focus on me. I agree with saving yourself. I have put him before me for decades. Before all this and after. At this point I want to put myself first. I guess if we are meant to be we will come back together. I just don't see that anymore and I am ok moving on and letting fate determine what is meant to be.

I also love the Santa Claus thoughts. I can see where you are coming from on that. I wish this was magical. I don't think I am giving up on him. I am just am choosing to believe in me. Right now that is magical for ME :) This is the second Holiday season he will be gone. It will be interesting as he just left before Thanksgiving last year. Will this affect him more or less. I think more. We may never know. I know I won’t be asking.


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« Last Edit: October 04, 2021, 03:18:12 PM by Tornup »
H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

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Stopping the insanity
#78: October 05, 2021, 06:12:36 AM
Good morning. Just wanted to clarify what I meant concerning Santa Claus and magical...I actually meant that the time we were married truly was "magical" for me, not the time since BD.

Quote
What I do know is they have to face things. So whether it is helping themselves by self reflection or outside help something makes them come out of this fog, right?  I think it has been said many times they peak out of the tunnel and slowly deal with their pain as they can only handle so much at a time and that is why it can take so long. I have read many MLC’r that had to go on depression meds to come out of the fog. That can’t normally happen with out talk therapy as well.

I have not read or heard of  meds or talk therapy being of any help to someone in a mid life crisis. That just has not been my experience. Just like other stages of life "end", for example,the terrible twos and adolescence, it seems like there is a time when the crisis passes and the individual returns to somewhat of who they once were. Many MLCers have said they don't recall much from their time in crisis although they can be truly shocked and sorry for the things they did once they come through it. Unfortunately, we don't see the end result of many who come through their crisis.

I often compare MLC to adolescence. The teenager will engage in many risk taking behaviors without any concerns of the effects on themselves or the effect it has on others. The "rules" and "expectations" of their parents don't matter to them, they do what they want to do and often their behavior is risky and dangerous.

Quote
Once I realized I may be hurting him more than helping him and I am definitely hurting myself it became obvious to me to back away from the situation. He is getting worse and the worse he gets the more I feel he is manipulating me.

I am not sure how you could be hurting him, really whatever we do or don't do doesn't seem to matter in the long run. You can definitely be hurting yourself which is why we say to focus on your life and your needs.

I am not sure what you see as his "manipulating" you..probably because I think that we don't really matter much to them in this state of crisis and it's hard for me to put into words, I truly see this as my husband's journey which has little or nothing to do with me.

 
Quote
This is the second Holiday season he will be gone. It will be interesting as he just left before Thanksgiving last year. Will this affect him more or less. I think more.

I think the LBSer often tries to read into things what we "expect" they will feel. Many MLCers do contact during holidays while others stay far away. The thing is, it can be crazy making trying to figure out what every action of their life means or doesn't mean. We truly do not know.

As always, discussion of your thoughts and the ideas of others is very valuable in helping the LBSer find their way through, and  for healing to occur.
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"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

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Stopping the insanity
#79: October 05, 2021, 06:35:20 AM
Xyzcf-
Thank you again. I always love your sweet approach with love. I feel the love you have for your XH and I can relate to that in so many ways. I did get the just of the Santa Claus aspect you were saying. I think I am a little “jumbled” right now and not always articulating myself correctly. This weekend was a trauma, a good eye opening one, but still a trauma.

 On the manipulation. He only talk depression with me and then when I get sucked in to being almost his “therapist” he resents and gets mad because the talks he initiates puts him in a bad place. I am in a constant state of damned if I do damned if I don't.

Like I said he threatens to kill him self and he is in the grocery aisle shopping for chocolates snd cookies. I am ready to call the police for a well care check. Even recently he went silent on a call after a threat. 5 minutes I was calling his name to respond. Nothing!!! I said I am calling the police and magically he said hello??? I dont know what happened. I must have dropped the phone to many times. I couldn’t hear you. I think he needed to hear my desperation. He is desperate and wants to know someone cares, but that is a lot to out on someone. That is master manipulative behavior.

That is why between that and his recent statement of me being the voice in his head telling him to DIE, I can’t take one more moment of it. He has to like you said come out of it on his own, but me being that sounding board is now enabling the behavior that is clearly hurting him more and definitely me.
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« Last Edit: October 05, 2021, 06:47:36 AM by Tornup »
H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

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Stopping the insanity
#80: October 05, 2021, 06:54:32 AM
Thanks for explaining Tornup (sigh).

They really are a mess!
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"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

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Re: Stopping the insanity
#81: October 05, 2021, 09:14:46 AM
I have to say I agree with xyzcf, I have not read or heard of meds or talk therapy being of any help to someone in a mid life crisis. That just has not been my experience either.

I think it's mainly because "most" of them think there is nothing wrong with them, so they wouldn't seek help, and if they did they would not see there is a problem.
Everyone around them can see their not right but they don't.

I believe it is just a matter of time (a lot of time) for these MLCer's to realize their life is not going the way they thought it would, no matter what they try, it fails, they are still not happy, still depressed, still searching....

Maybe at this point, when they feel beat down, they just MAY be open to talking to someone.  But it has to be their idea.  Hey why am I still not happy?
That, in my opinion, is the only time therapy could possibly help them clear their head.
I guess it's a matter of admitting to yourself you have a problem before you can do something about it.

Just like an alcoholic can live in denial for years before they realize they are killing themselves, and they get the courage to get help.

MLCer's are also in denial.
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A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

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Stopping the insanity
#82: October 05, 2021, 09:58:24 AM
I have read so many back stories including the fog stories on this sight MLC’rs stating once they were on the right cocktail of meds they started to clear from the fog. My XH says he is messed up, maybe because he is having moments of clarity. What ever the case. Not my monkey not my circus, right?  Who knows. When it comes to my XH and all the mind games. Just can’t even anymore. I don’t care why it is happening at this point. I saw this Mel Robbins post recently " DO YOURSELF A FAVOR, TAKE THOSE MIXED MESSAGES AS A NO!!!!!  That’s what I am going to do 😉
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« Last Edit: October 05, 2021, 10:10:56 AM by Tornup »
H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

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Re: Stopping the insanity
#83: October 05, 2021, 12:30:35 PM
Mine was actually seeing a psychiatrist and on meds pre-BD. He did know there was something wrong. His bipolar diagnosis was at first a relief (finally a name for it), but then he became afraid of being just another mental case in his family (which has sort of become a self-fulfilling prophecy now). He went through several different medications, mainly SSRIs, before taking himself off cold turkey. There was one in particular though that really did seem to help (Celexa). I've seen references on limerence sites run by therapists and other professionals to SSRIs and talk therapy helping. Hormone therapy - also a thing that has helped a few here (I can't remember the screenname right off - Smitty? Her H had really low T and getting medical help for that made a huge difference). I don't think it's something to completely discount, for people who are open and willing to do the work. Plus, therapy may still be useful to them, even if it doesn't take them into the direction of marriage reconciliation. Identity reconciliation is still important.

Having said that ;) - I spent several years studying everything I could about bipolar and MLC, hoping it was the latter for my xH (since I believed at the time that eventually it would resolve), but preparing for the former (which would also crash and burn at some point and drive him back to psychiatry, right?), plus everything in between. I really believed that an adjustment in neurotransmitters would just 'click' him back into place, like getting enough oil back in his proverbial engine of a brain.

But that's really not how it works, not completely. We're all still human beings with our own free wills. A little dopamine combined with olfactory memory (let's say I suggested he take L-Tyrosine, which I may have even bought him, then made sure I was wearing my old perfume when he came to visit) isn't going to make him fall back in love with me out of the blue. But in the bargaining stage of grief, I was willing to try it. ;) Dr. Joe Carver's site continues to be a solid reference, but not a blanket recipe for what would fix anyone. http://www.drjoecarver.com/clients/49355/File/Chemical%20Imbalance.html

If any of this was predictable, it would be the one thing on this planet that was. Each case will be unique.

With me, I too have really low serotonin (clearly not as low as my xH, but still a big inhibitor in my life if I let it be). I take supplements every day to help that. They don't take away my problems, but having a more stable brain helps me to deal with them better. On days when I don't take them, I can feel by mid-afternoon my thought patterns changing. If I go two days, just out of laziness or if I run out of something, I'm reminded because I find myself being angry without cause, I snap at people, and dredge up ridiculous memories of things that definitely don't matter, but that I absolutely ruminate about! It's bizarre. And then I remember that I haven't taken my supplements, and I rationally know that's the reason I feel bad - yet that knowledge in itself doesn't change how I feel. Chemicals and the brain are such bizarre things! But it's always my responsibility to find ways to mitigate. No one could love me enough to fix it, to give me advice while I'm in that state that would alleviate my anger or change my thought pattern. No one. And I'm grateful to those around me who let me be and let me deal with it.

I'm very glad you're taking a hands off approach with yours, and recognizing that some of his "your voice in his head" could be a bit of a control tactic. A way to triangulate you into taking blame because you're not yelling at him to his face, so he sets you up to be the enemy without your participation (maybe expecting an apology or delicate treatment?). Just like you get in the welcome message, "Believe half of what they do and nothing they say." Sounds cruel when you want to help. But when you look at actions and how they don't align with statements, it becomes easier to protect yourself and set good boundaries.
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#84: October 06, 2021, 05:27:39 AM
Quote
But it's always my responsibility to find ways to mitigate. No one could love me enough to fix it, to give me advice while I'm in that state that would alleviate my anger or change my thought pattern. No one. And I'm grateful to those around me who let me be and let me deal with it

R2T- /\ YUP!!!!! Rightzzz therezzzzzz!!!!  What’s even more insightful is that for my XH he ultimately left because I didn’t have the ability to just let him be. I was the what’s wrong, you need to talk to someone gal!! He has said that the OW just let’s him be. He is worse however for it. Mine is being treated for low T also. Very low and they can’t get it to balance and come up consistently. I guess he will see how that make a difference. He also only took mood stabilizers that did help the anger. He went cold turkey and dropped both when he left and is dealing with that again.

The bottom line is you for sure in no way can love someone out of this. I do think they recognize where the true love for them is and they are just incapable of returning that kind of love and in fact it almost becomes another burden and pressure on them, so they move on to someone that can’t hurt them. My XH recently said if OW left he could live without her and it would not destroy him in the least. What a sad place to be. I will say it once and a thousand times. Better him than me.
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H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

b
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Stopping the insanity
#85: October 06, 2021, 08:42:56 AM
Torn...one of the best lines I've heard here regarding the AP is that the MLC'er or abandoner is not looking for someone better than the LBS, they are looking for someone worse than themselves.  There is no attachment beyond that.  They just want someone who makes them feel better about the lousy state they are in.  If she goes, he'll just find another fix to replace her.
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T
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#86: October 06, 2021, 08:56:22 AM
BB- I believe that whole heartedly!! My XH even said “ I can’t live up to the expectations of you good looking intelligent women” I told him well that is sad for you. You should surround yourself with people and partners that can bring you to the next level. To be at this point in your life and your goal is to go backward? How is that working for you and your self esteem?  It took me a while to put together all the rantings, because I was still trying to save the unsavable.  When I deciphered it all I realized this is truly insanity!!!! He can go insane on his own. I AM BETTER THAN THIS!!!!! 
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« Last Edit: October 06, 2021, 08:57:34 AM by Tornup »
H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

T
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Stopping the insanity
#87: October 06, 2021, 10:19:20 AM
Sharing a little therapy today, because who doesn’t want to hear revelations  from a LBS  session. I was telling my IC Dr yesterday about a conversation ( the last ) with my XH. On how he keeps telling me it’s him. It’s not me. I told her how I said if it’s not me why did I get cheated on and she isn’t? If you used women to escape and your in a worse place now mentally the how are you not still needing a side source from her? Seem’s like it was all an escape from me?

As I was recanting my story I stopped dead in my tracks. OMG!!! He is cheating on her . He does have a side woman, doesn’t he??? I am now the OW. She said “Sure seems that way doesn’t it” I said, yes. Now he has the escape and the OW/ therapist. She said “ How is that serving you?” Of course it wasn’t. I was being drained from trying to help man that doesn’t want to help himself.

It really was an AHA moment. When I was beside myself with worry that he may take his life on our D14 bday to find out he was in the candy aisle buying treats. Now, to come to realize that I have become the OW (or had become) That is another bomb shell of a revelation. She said “ when you insert yourself he pulls away and when you disengage he reals you back in. It will be interesting to see what he does without your dis-engagement in his life on any personal level, but it is obvious you are the voice in man’s head that can’t be his own. You are significant in his life. The most significant. What you have to be now is the most significant in your life”

So, let the ⛅️ clouds part and the sunshine through!!! Progress can stop the rain 🌧 on the cloudiest of days and let you know that sunshine ☀️ is around the corner for better days ahead. Life is good!!
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« Last Edit: October 06, 2021, 10:27:21 AM by Tornup »
H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

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#88: October 06, 2021, 12:21:01 PM
Some great stuff in that session, Tornup! We are the voices in their heads, we are their backbones, often their moral compasses or at least the source of direction in their lives. Often they resist it and run from it, only to find themselves lost without that influence. And it’s not because we are actively working to be their source of direction; often it’s codependency in the relationship. The best thing we can do is to detach and never seek that same kind of codependent attachment we had before. If something new, something healthy, can be built, there has to be a change in both people and therefore in the relationship. Coming to that realization is such a vital part of this. At least, that’s been my experience.
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#89: October 06, 2021, 01:00:53 PM
Yes, Torn....you are better than half-assed contact by him laced with manipulation at every turn.  Going from suicidal to craving candy in a matter of minutes  is a prime example of that manipulation they do so well. 

These people are so mentally firetrucked that their emotional state is all over the place.  Not someone  I'd want to have any sort of relationship with at all.  They are emotional vampires that will suck you dry, if you let them.....so DON'T let them.  I think this is exactly what your therapist was eluding to today.  Sometimes you are just too close to the forest to see the trees,  but once someone points them out to you, those things cannot go unseen and you begin to make better choices given your new perspective of things.  That is the path forward (and upward) from all the this MLC BS.  You stop your part in their games and you start living YOUR life.  And, if they ever decide to pull their head from their @ss....they can level up and come join you.
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#90: October 06, 2021, 03:26:28 PM
She said “ How is that serving you?”
Post this one on your mirror, your computer monitor, your phone background.

Do you actually think he does not KNOW that telling you he wants to/ is going to commit suicide scares you? You have correctly identified that as manipulation. You do not deserve to be thrown into a state of terror every time he uses you as his therapist. I realize you are worried for him, but what about you? This kind of stress is not good for you, so I am very glad you have identified that you need to really detach and avoid speaking with him for your own wellbeing.

If you find yourself in a situation where you are speaking with him because you have a valid reason and he sidelines into one of those poor me conversations,  ask yourself "How does the conversation serve YOU?" You deserve to put yourself first for a change.
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When life gives you lemons, make SALSA!

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#91: October 07, 2021, 07:46:33 AM
Curiosity
Quote
we are their backbones, often their moral compasses or at least the source of direction in their lives
Totally agree. I also think right now they want anything, but rationale. They are escaping rules and pressure. LBS is all about rules and pressures IN THEIR HEAD! They don't want think anymore. Too much swirling in their head they already cant deal with.   

Off road
Quote
If you find yourself in a situation where you are speaking with him because you have a valid reason and he sidelines into one of those poor me conversations,  ask yourself "How does the conversation serve YOU?" You deserve to put yourself first for a change
YES!! I think it wont be an issue, because he rarely would reach out and he is bull headed enough that since I said I was done he will stick with it. I do have to see him in person briefly for the dog pick up and drop off, but I WILL NOT engage him Outside the dogs care.

Strange since I have decided to not engage personally with him anymore I am sleeping more. I was waking up many times in the night and getting up at 5 am each morning. This week I have not been getting out of bed before 7am. I contribute that to having dreams all of a sudden which extend my sleep subconsciously, but I also wake up realizing I had a dream, but not recalling the details.  Very glad to have more sleep, but can’t make sense out of the change. Sometimes for me dreams in my sleep are me working through things I don't during the day (consciousness), but since I cant remember the details not sure what I am working through. The mind is an amazing thing.







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« Last Edit: October 07, 2021, 08:39:12 AM by Tornup »
H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

T
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Stopping the insanity
#92: October 09, 2021, 07:24:11 AM
My D30 wedding pictures came back. Whoaaaa, let me tell you!!!! My XH who feels he doesn’t belongs anywhere??? The pictures look just like how he feels. He has aged 20 years. He is expressionless. He has black eyes. You can see the torment and distress when you look at the pictures. I honestly look at them and want to cry. We have probably the last of family photos and there is nothing that feels like family. It is truly heartbreaking.

I am not even sure how I feel about it all, but a sense that now I want to run as far away from this man as possible. I feel very detached now. I don’t want to know what or why he is doing anything. I just want him in a way to disappear. I feel I am totally fine with him doing whatever he wants with his life now. He truly is no one I know. There is a really vacant place however now in my soul where love and family existed. It feels like the last 30 years never existed, because he seems to now not exist. It’s a strange place to be.

I am sleeping much better now, however !! I am making plans for my life and doing things weekly with friends. Going tomorrow on a weekend trip with my kids and new SIL to out of town NFL game. Have a trip in a few weeks with my S28 and his 3 friends for a weekend of football. Please pray for me. That one I may not survive 😉  Also, my old HS gf’s are trying to start a yearly vacation to go on. So much to look forward to.

My D30 is also started to try and expand the family, so look forward to that as well. That is the one thing you wonder how they move on from. They just start this new life to escape and that is easier than dealing with their issues or is it?? Obviously not. If it was they wouldn’t  be in torment in their mind. I do feel bad he is missing out on his kids and grandkids, but only he can change that. I am not missing NOTHING!!! My XH is picking up the dogs this afternoon and keeping them for a week. We shall see how that goes…… Everyone have a great weekend 😀


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« Last Edit: October 09, 2021, 08:34:58 AM by Tornup »
H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

T
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Stopping the insanity
#93: October 09, 2021, 04:53:12 PM
The day has come!!! My XH came by to pick up the dogs for the week and told me OW is transferring to his state and she is moving in. He still can’t tell me he loves her. He is stating at least he wont be by himself and in his head. He told his kids.They had nothing to say on it. They both hate her. He said that her lease was up in February, but she went to the leasing office and they let her out at the end of the month. He thought he had an out that he could change his mind, but now she is moving in a week or two and He doesn’t know how He feels about her.

I told him that he made the decision and I think he has to follow through with it. He did say earlier that he needed it to play out to know what “this” is. Who knows. I told him that he has been on a self destructive path for a long time. I guess you will find out at this point how this will go.

There is relief in some ways that our communication will be stopped and someone else will be responsible for him and his head. I do worry with this relationship coming out in the open and people at work all finding out how the gossip of it all will affect my kids. I know they are disturbed and aware that he is not himself. I think we all as parent worry the most about not only the affect of the family breaking up, but the loss of the respect our kids have for their parents in this crisis. I hate that the most.

A new chapter is beginning. I truly hope this wakes him up. I really would like to see him come through the other side for his kids. Somehow I have little hope for him. I said what happens if everything falls apart? Who will you call? He said you would always be the first person I call. I cant think of anyone else. Strange…. Again

Tomorrow I head to the game with my kids. Going to move on from today and start some memories and fun times despite their messed up father
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H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

J
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#94: October 09, 2021, 05:11:59 PM
Sorry to hear about the "new reality," Tornup. You and your kids have been through so much already. I hope you all enjoy the game tomorrow.

JB
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#95: October 09, 2021, 07:23:12 PM
Thank you JB- I honestly think it is all for the best. It will either work or blow up, but it forced him to tell his kids and come out in the open with his boss as well. Hard to believe this is where we are, but we are here and life goes on. Its unsettling, but I am not torn up about it. pun intended :)
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H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

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Re: Stopping the insanity
#96: October 09, 2021, 08:41:22 PM
I'm sorry Tornup.

All this is so hard.

Enjoy the game with your kids tomorrow.

Hugs
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A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

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Stopping the insanity
#97: October 12, 2021, 01:34:00 AM
No need to say more than....

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Me - 58, xW - 50
Together 19 years - Married 17 at separation & 21 at D-Day
S - 14, D - 10
2 Dogs
BD#1 - August 2015
Atomic BD - 13 Dec 2015
House sold & separated - Mar 2016
Divorce final 30 August 2019

Survival Instructions for Newbies
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A "friend" will not "stand by you" no matter what you do. That is NOT a friend. That is an enabler. That is an accomplice.
A REAL friend will sit you down and tell you to your face to stop being a firetrucking idiot before you ruin your life and the lives of those around you.

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#98: October 12, 2021, 01:57:53 PM
Update on the aftermath of the news the OW is moving in. My XH chose to tell our children before me.  That would be normal if I hadn’t been so closely helping him emotionally for the past 10 months. I have been his closest ally in his mess. The problem is that we had agreed on major decisions we would sit down with them together. I have found when everyone is told things separate it then is not remembered correctly. Then the problems come….

My biggest issue is he chose hours before a planned trip with my adult kids and new SIL to a NFL game. Once there and a few beers in of course they started talking about it. The stories weren't matching not with them or what I was told. I found myself so angry that he chose right before this planned event and then he became part of it and not in a good way. Luckily I was able to not engage to much, but I did at one point tell my kids.  I don't Like her, I will never like her , but I want you both to have a good relationship with your dad. If that means dealing with her that will be your choice.

I was frustrated that once again he drops a bomb and leaves and I have to handle the aftermath. The good thing is we had a good time despite that interruption. My D and S some times have a hard time connecting and they had a lot of fun including a parking lot dance off. Due to the XH becoming part of the conversation briefly it did not skip my mind when the moment turned and the fun was again in progress that you realize WHAT A SHAME THAT THEY THINK THERE COULD BE SOMETHING BETTER THAN THIS!! It truly is a crisis of temporary insanity. There just nothing more important than family. It is literally what makes life worth living. I’m so glad to still have mine.
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« Last Edit: October 12, 2021, 02:05:48 PM by Tornup »
H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

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#99: October 12, 2021, 03:45:36 PM

WHAT A SHAME THAT THEY THINK THERE COULD BE SOMETHING BETTER THAN THIS!!

Park that one on your mirror. :)

The horror! you were in a public place and the kids were DANCING!  ::) (That would have actually sent my XH off there at the end)
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« Last Edit: October 12, 2021, 03:46:49 PM by OffRoad »
When life gives you lemons, make SALSA!

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#100: October 12, 2021, 05:16:58 PM
Going to read your story from the beginning Tornup as I am always hesitant to comment when I do not know the entire history. But I am sorry to read about OW moving in ...but then again , it just might be a rather good thing.  Let them get on with it .Live in the real world with bills, housework, kids, stress  etc etc may put a damper on the "fantasy" soulmate stuff.  Still, I am sorry to read that . Going to catch up and follow along ...
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Married April 1985
5 children
Bomb Drop April 2013
Thrown out of house August 2013
Affair discovered November 2013 (i guessed who)
Home December 3 2013
The Journey Of Reconciliation .. is for the brave .

Anger is like a candle in the wind ... it blows out the light of all reason.

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#101: October 14, 2021, 09:49:24 AM
Almost 1 year ago this month my life was blown up when my XH went out of town on a business trip and never returned home. He has told me that the OW is moving in the weekend of his birthday which is the end of this month.  The same weekend he left and never returned. He said the reasons when evaluated moving her in had nothing to do with her and everything to do with him. If he moved her in S28 will not have to deal with her at work, he will not be alone when he is in his worse depression and thinking of ending his life. Blah blah blah

He continues to be lost. He said I dont love her, but I have to do this. I have to see what this is. He said he is not worthy of me. He has no idea where he is heading. His past is all colored in pain, he is grateful for everything we had, but He doesn’t  think He deserved any of it, He is the worst person he knows, He is trying to not hurt anyone but himself anymore, however no matter what He does He still hurts me, that's killing him.  ( again, kibbles and self pity)

He stated that now they are moving in together she thought they should think of marriage. Ughhh, I feel he will do it. He doesn't want to be alone. She is not showing her true colors yet and she sees a meal ticket and she is trying to lock it in. I asked him if he felt manipulated by her and he said yea???  ( again, why did I ask? I know better. Can’t believe anything, so why ask) It is very hard to see this happen. I soon will just be a complete outsider with no contact and moving on completely, but I just was really hoping he would not get to this point. I can only hope she starts to show herself and it all falls apart before he blows up the rest of his life. My therapist said. “This can’t end well for him. The relationship can’t last” well, we shall see. IDK??)

It really is the hardest thing to still care for someone who is destroying their life and there really is not one thing you can do. The extremes of all his actions since he left not quite a year ago is just hard to grasp. I feel I barely recover from one astonishing act before the next pops up. I talked with my therapist yesterday about brining my kids in to a session with me. I do need them to not mention their father or OW going forward for at least the near future, so I can heal and move on without the triggers of his actions. I would be affected by a anyone making such huge mistakes when in depression. So, someone I shared a lifetime with is hard, really hard.

One positive thing is I wont have to be affected by his words going forward snd his actions are still an indication of where his head is, but it is still what he is deciding. In the end I just have to keep remembering actions always speak larger than words and that is never more true than with an MLC’r. So, this looks to be the end of the road for us. Not sure even if he came out of this if my pride could ever recover to take him back. Only time will tell, but for now I am moving forward with my life. Got my lists of things I want to accomplish and continue to turn my focus on me. This week was a detour of attention back to him, but I recover more quickly now. Which is good.

The last 4 years have all been about him. Actually longer than that as he showed signs in 2013, but 2017 and on have been all about him. I have shown devotion, love and loyalty and he is unable to accept or return. He shared a story from an MLC’r that he related to and that even confused me more. He said he read it every week.  This also confused me. Almost like he read it and decided oh, he moved in with her and woke up. Maybe if I move in I will know if it is real or I wake up.  Either way he seems to be totally spinning trying to get answers for himself, but still not looking st himself?  I don’t have much hope for him living his happiest life. I will just have to accept that and hope he works on his connection with his kids. I am going to push forward. Sharing the MLC’r story below he is reading every week. It is a good one
_________________________________
My Midlife Depression

My explanation of how I experienced my midlife depression (often referred to as a midlife crisis MLC) is in two parts.  The first part explains my feelings at the time and the consequent behaviours; the second is a post mortem of my MLC from the perspective of having survived it to become a more integrated human being.

Part 1 – the MLC

I was 41 years old and in the space of one year I had lost a good friend to cancer and after many years trying to recover a failing business I had to finally admit defeat and declare bankruptcy.  Just like that my world had changed and I was back in the job market working for a younger boss.  This was the catalyst to what became a self-destructive search for meaning.

I awoke one day to realise I felt emotionally numb and that nothing in my life had any meaning - I did not recognise the man staring back at me from the mirror  -   I was a failure period! I was worthless period! I had lost any emotional connection to the people that once meant the most in my life – my wife and two daughters.  I had no connection to any happy memories of the past. I was emotionally empty.   At first, I reasoned that I must love my wife but I could not feel it, I must love my daughters but I could not feel it. Emotionally numb and terrified my thoughts were consumed with the fear of continuing with an unfulfilled life that lacked happiness, meaning and purpose, a life that was filled with hopelessness and sadness, that smacked of failure, routine and boredom – I was like a gerbil on a wheel going nowhere – this life did not reflect the life I wanted or the person I wanted to be- although I was not sure who I wanted to be. I was a maelstrom of confusion.   This confusion of not knowing who I was, lent a panic and urgency to search for a ‘new’ life because the old one was not working.  Time was running out, my youth was fading fast and I had to get the life I wanted now before it was too late - because the life I had been living so far had been a farce- not really but that’s was how I felt at the time.  And so began a journey where I  set aside my belief structure, my true-self and became a person that outwardly expressed a contradiction to what was real on the inside, a persona that bought into an illusion of success, fun, excitement and ‘happiness’. This journey lacked any real attempt to find meaning and purpose,  even though I used this reasoning to justify my MLC behaviour.

My new found persona gave me a ‘clarity’ of who I was supposed to be – Not!!! But at the time I was convinced by this new found ‘clarity’, this new found ‘persona’.   I started my ‘new’ life by renewing my pursuits of old, namely past time hobbies from my younger days.  This was done in an attempt to reconnect with my youth – because apart from the emotional void I also felt old and that time had suddenly passed me by and I had little to show for it – I had wasted my youth.  My wife bless her soul could see my despair and encouraged me to take up rock climbing and sky diving; these pursuits brought me into contact with new people and often involved weekends away.

It was in this environment and this altered state of mind, that I met a young attractive woman – at first we kept it purely platonic but the attraction was evident, she made me feel good, she admired me and gave my flailing ego the validation I so desperately needed.  This is not to say my wife was not giving me the support I needed, but her support came without the excitement of a flirtatious relationship – my wife represented the old life marked with an overwhelming burden of responsibilities and feelings of failure - I had come to hate this life while this woman represented freedom and everything else I wanted for my new life – so I thought at the time.  There is something to be said for the admiration of someone who does not really know you – your failures, your demons, your past – you can pretend to be someone else – it’s a fresh start – a blank slate to create a new more exciting life, a new more exciting you – it feels empowering.   Suffice it to say that I began an affair which offered me the emotional highs my marriage no longer offered.  To my new found ‘awareness’ this seemed to indicate that this new path was the right one.  As the affair progressed my affair partner became more involved with my new life than my wife – to succour my feelings of guilt I began to withdraw from my wife, this withdrawal was accompanied by anger as in my mind I started to view my wife in negative terms, I unconsciously created a disharmonious environment to bring out the worst in myself and her, so that I could give justification to my behaviour by exaggerating her weaknesses and her failures as a spouse and as a human being.  I began to blame my wife for my discontent, I projected my internal discontent onto our marriage. 

Eventually, I managed to convince myself that I had never been happy with her or our marriage – not true but my new persona, my new awareness had convinced me of this ‘truth’.  I realise now that I never stopped loving my wife in my crisis I had just set my feelings for her aside and pursued those feelings that made me feel less guilty, feelings that gave me an emotional high, feelings that made me feel empowered.  However, these feeling were always short lived – at first I blamed this on the fact that I was unable to pursue my new life with a wife and daughters in the way, but as it turned out even with my family out of the way these feelings remained short lived.

My wife finally found out about the affair – one would think bringing the affair out into the open would bring a sense of relief and freedom – now I could pursue my new life, my new ‘love’, without the tiresome obligations of wife and family.  But all that it did was turn up the heat from a frying pan to a fire.  Feelings of guilt, moral failure, integrity failure, remorse, regret, anxiety, lack of self worth, loneliness, failure and sadness were intensified.  So what did I do, I began to run faster, I increased the self-medication by  pursuing  a life of excitement to create emotional highs that in the moment made me forget and brought the illusion that my life was better, I was happier, I was fulfilled – but in those quiet moments the despair would return – so I kept on moving, I filled my days with work and many other activities so that there was little time left to think, so that by the time I got to my apartment I was too tired to think.  Although on those days where I was too wired to sleep porn sites and adult dating chat rooms became my escape from the demons in my head.  I had become the narcissist trying to prove that he is real!

My affair while in its secret phase offered the excitement to create the emotional highs and the illusion that I was ‘in-love’, but after exposure my affair partner in the space of a few short months failed to provide the emotional highs required to escape the darkness within.  To keep the illusion alive to my new friends, colleagues and family,  that I had made the right choice in terms of leaving my family for my new ‘love’ interest  I maintained my relationship with her and together we indulged in all sorts of ‘fun’ activities that required  spending much money (I bought a sports car, bought new cloths and got a tattoo, expensive dinners and holidays), drinking, drugging (only the occasional recreational joint), kinky sex and parties.  This new life did not lend itself to continued pursuit of healthier sports like mountain climbing and sky diving so organising weekend car trips around the country with my new friends of racing car enthusiasts became the new passion.  Yet, my affair partner just like my wife failed to maintain my ‘happiness’ – so behind her back I began to have one night stands.  My womanising not only enabled my new obsession with the excitement of illicit sex (this was the more popular pain medication I used followed by alcohol) but these women provided me with the admiration and attention that I could no longer get from my affair partner – not that she was not attentive – she just was not enough.   She was no longer the blank slate onto which I could project all my desires.  And of course I would at times use the poor me had a terrible wife talk to get further empathy from these unsuspecting women.

And so began my journey into a life of deception, lies and manipulation that brought me to the very pit of despair – although the journey itself offered emotional highs that convincingly created the illusion that I was at last happy, in all honesty the happy moments were fleeting – I had to keep moving and doing things that continued to create the illusion of happiness, if I stopped  the demons would return, each time they did they would be magnified – more intense -because each time I got drunk, slept with another woman, smoked another joint, lied to and manipulated people my self- loathing and guilt would be compounded.  This would create even more urgency to escape.......it was a never ending cycle of momentary escapes of emotional highs followed by emotional lows.  The effort to keep up an image of confidence and surety that my life was exactly as I wanted it to be began to take its toll.    All my effort was yielding nothing but emptiness.  The highs were getting lower while the depth were getting deeper as I knowingly pursued behaviours that compromised my integrity, my sense of honour, and yet like an alcoholic or person  with an eating disorder  the  knowledge that what I was doing was self-destructive and compounding my self-loathing – could not stop my behaviour.  I was addicted to a self-destructive life I came to abhor, but in the beginning it was a life that my ‘new’ persona thrived on, for the simple reason that it at least made me feel something, which was a lot better than feeling nothing at all or despair.   In the beginning I was convinced this new life was who I was supposed to be – it kept the depression at bay and brought me moments of ‘happiness’.

The depression could no longer be silenced, I finally hit rock bottom – I woke up one morning in my apartment looking at my sleeping affair partner with a fragmented memories from an alcohol induced fog from the night before.  In my hangover stupor I was suddenly struck by deep feelings of anxiety - I did not really know the person who lay beside me.  She was a stranger to me – she had been a welcomed distraction nothing more – once again I was struck by deep feelings of despair – only this time the despair was overwhelming and there was nowhere left to run – I was exhausted.  My life had no meaning at all – life had no meaning at all – life was a terrible task master from which there was only one escape – Death.   I kept these feeling in check long enough to ask my affair partner to give me some timeout and upon starring at a photo of my daughters in happier times I crashed – I curled up on the floor in a foetal position and cried and cried and cried for the loss of my innocence, self- worthiness,  integrity and for the person I used to be.  I was 47 years old and I had spent the last six years in a blur of mind numbing activities that had led me to the f*ck up that was my life.   As the 16th century saying goes “hell is truth seen too late!”.  My pursuit of happiness had failed dismally, I had made enormous sacrifices and burnt many bridges in this hollow pursuit.   I had lost the people who most loved me – I had discarded them like yesterdays newspaper and here I was a lonely and pathetic excuse for a human being let alone a man.  I did not recognise and did not want to be this persona, it had failed me dismally, it had compromised everything I had once held dear.  I lay there with one thought  a deep unfailing urge to escape the despair.  I was in so much emotional pain that death appeared as my friend to succour my despair and offer me peace.  For the first time in my life I had thoughts of suicide – in my despair I reached out to the only person I could really trust.....I  called my ex-wife......she recognised my cry for help and came to my rescue that day. 

I spent the next two years in recovery which included counselling and spiritual teachings - trying to find my sense of self – some peace of mind, forgiveness and my sense of self-worth.  I have learnt a lot, and have rediscovered the man I used to be but with some improvements.......after all,  this entire hellish journey had to have had its purpose...otherwise it would all have been a waste – considering what I have lost.   I still have a lot to learn – life is a journey of self discovery – and while I occasionally experience bouts of depression they are less intense as I have now developed the coping mechanisms to deal with it.  My MLC was the most spirit jarring and lonely part of my life’s  journey.  It was an Armageddon of my own making.  Today I have realised happiness comes from within and it begins with forgiveness, the most important part of which is forgiving myself for the bad choices I made, especially those made during my MLC.  For the most part I have forgiven myself for these bad choices however I still live with regret – well only one – and that is that I lost my only true love and closest ally – my wife.  While she has forgiven me, and we remain friends she has moved on with her life.  My relationship with my daughters is slowly recovering – bless their hearts they have forgiven their daddy.

There is a saying  “discipline weighs ounces but regret weights tonnes”.  Where my wife and my daughters are concerned I still live with the weight of tonnes – I live in hope that the day comes were I make my peace and truly forgive myself for this mistake.
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« Last Edit: October 14, 2021, 10:53:12 AM by Tornup »
H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

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Stopping the insanity
#102: October 14, 2021, 12:25:50 PM
A thought to throw into the mix fwiw in the spirit of encouraging your own impulse to step back from the insanity of it all, as you say.

Worth reminding yourself...
This is not your xh’s story. It is someone else’s perception of his own story. And there are some missing voices from it, of course.

Your xh is currently in the process of doing things that will write his own story, for good or ill. His story is entirely his responsibility and only his.
There is perhaps a bit of a hidden ‘trap’ in conflating the two for both of you.

Whilst it may not be intentional on his part, there is something that feels a little idk...manipulative, passive-aggressive, unhealthily indirect, delusional?...about your xh sharing this story with you when he is evidently not learning anything healthy from it and when his actions do not line up with the rational take away from the story.

You can’t do anything about the meaning he makes from the story but you can refuse to engage in it, or indeed to continue to care about HIS story as his sharing of it suggests he expects you to do or to infer what he thinks you will infer from it. You can choose to say his story is no longer a story that involves you and turn your eye more fixedly on your OWN story, which may or may not have a part that includes him from here on.

I am not intending to be overly cynical, but these needy damaged folks know how to press our buttons after years of a shared life. So imho that is s thing to be cautious about, particularly if we can sdd how it might benefit them if they do get the Pavlovian reaction they expect.
We change the pattern by changing our reactions. And that often just means caring less about their story post BD in order to care much more about other stories.
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« Last Edit: October 14, 2021, 12:31:03 PM by Treasur »
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.
Healing and growing found here https://littleplotbythesea.wordpress.com

"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

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Nas

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Stopping the insanity
#103: October 14, 2021, 12:32:56 PM
This question arose in reading Treasur's post about his (perhaps manipulative) intention behind sharing this story he's been reading with you: I'm curious if he told you how he stumbled across this particular story, since it's actually a post from Hero's Spouse. The so-called MLCer was a friend of a former member here and that member shared it on her thread, but it was then linked in one of RCR's articles. (I read it with a ton of hopium in my early days - I've since come to see it as basically fiction, but that's just me.)
Anyway, the question arises, is your exH aware of this forum and/or your presence on this forum? (We have had members in the past whose MLCer/spouse found their thread and read along unbeknownst at first to the LBS).
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Re: Stopping the insanity
#104: October 14, 2021, 01:00:54 PM
Turnup how in the world did he find that article?  I've never heard of an MLCer looking up anything on a midlife crisis, or midlife depression.  He must be very unique.
My H would never have read that or believed it.  For one thing his attention span was way to short to read a long article like that.

I do think that article, even though only one story, probably does mirror many MLCer's and what they go through.  I really don't believe any of them end up happy in the end. 
They do run and run trying to find their elusive "happiness" but it is rarely found.

I'm sorry he is taking the route he is, I know it must hurt, but there is just nothing any of us can do to to change their mind.  At least not in a year, it is way to soon for them to realize anything.  Murky waters in their brains.  ::)
Maybe moving in with her will be a good thing.  She can't hide her true self forever.

You just keep being who you are and make your life as happy as you can.  Your kids still have you for support and you still have them.
Put him way in the back of the shelf for now.
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A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

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Stopping the insanity
#105: October 14, 2021, 01:18:32 PM
Nas, Treasur and Thunder-

There is a lot of manipulative behavior from him. He says he hates hurting me, but yet continues. He obviously uses me as an anchor. Whether the story is real or fiction it is  interesting that he like you said reads, relates but continues his current behavior without any attempt to learn or change from it. 

As far as the article. He seeks out a lot of information including things on depression trying to relate, but he wallows in it like a self inflicted pain. Seeking out music from people who have committed suicide and videos on Robin Williams and others who did not survive. He reads a lot. Like his own therapy. So, I can’t imagine he is the first. He does know I journal-on MLC.  He says he has 6 MLC’r stories he reads but this one he reads over and over. Are they all from here,hmmm. Good question. Maybe?

The news of him moving the OW in was a set back for me as the possibility that he will continue this path to marriage, by a OW after his status and money. I have to work through this and obviously with this taking place in 2 weeks and the anniversary of his leaving it has hit at a painful time for me as it is. It is also the weekend of my rape. I doubt he didn’t think about this as men hardly pay attention to dates, but it had been a little insensitive. I don't expect anything more or leas of him anymore, but it doesn’t mean it can go unnoticed by me.

I do like to journal and document it all. Hoping I can come back and see my progress as well. I have only been on this site 4 months and I have grown so much, but these moments are always a reminder that you can get set back. One thing I do know is I am not hysterical and falling apart, but it has brought on some anxiety. I hate this. I hate that he is being a fool. I do know there is nothing I can do, but get on with my life, but I have to feel all the feels and work through it to keep moving forward.

I know he is not happy. I need to remember that he has done nothing to work on anything and she is getting a broken man and he is with someone who matches where he is. It is so easy however to have this crazy vision of pure joy and happiness and see it as a movie where their world is all bliss. Much like maybe he is trying to play out in his head how it will go. When I forget who he was and remember where he is and who he chose and stay in reality that there is nothing magical happening I can progress through it all much better.

 This week has just set me a little back in jumbling my head of mixed thoughts and emotions. Not really sure how I feel but just uncertainty. I have never been a person to handle crazy well and this has all been crazy insanity. I think also I know now it is a complete cut off from him after 32 years. There was always some communication through out this process. Also, I put a lot of emotions and love into helping him, before I understood MLC or found this site. I feel I have been playing catch up . If I would have found this site in 2018 I would have handled things so differently.

Ok, feel like I am rambling  , but that is how the last week have felt like. Just chaos in my life and mind. My therapist said lets get your empowerment back. We will work on that next week. I am looking forward to detachment, empowerment, and a place of calm. The storms are getting really old.
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« Last Edit: October 14, 2021, 02:03:17 PM by Tornup »
H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

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Stopping the insanity
#106: October 14, 2021, 02:27:44 PM
I searched a very long time and read a lot about MLC to try and figure out what had happened. It actually calmed me to read stories written by MLCers as they attempted to explain some of what they experienced...which is uncanningly familiar from one story to the next.

If we go really far back, Stayed's husband's letter really had a huge impact on many many LBSers.

I think it was in 2010 or 2011 that 8-10 members from HS travelled to meet Stayed and her husband and actually spent a few days with them. He was willing to talk openly to us and to answer any and all questions we put to him. He is a very brave man because none of us sugar coated any of our questions and he patiently answered us with his story, and his reality (which seems to fit the so called MLC script).

This is a tough time for you Tornup, as the holidays approach, his recent disclosure to your family of OW and his imminent move in with her as well as the anniversary date of his leaving. You also mentioned a date when you were raped, I am sorry that I did not read that before in your posts. Your daughter was just married and you have a husband who insists upon telling you stuff that causes more anxiety for you.

Because it is impossible after 32 years not to care about him, and to be concerned about him.

Quote
One thing I do know is I am not hysterical and falling apart, but it has brought on some anxiety. I hate this. I hate that he is being a fool. I do know there is nothing I can do, but get on with my life, but I have to feel all the feels and work through it to keep moving forward.

I do believe that to heal and become whole we do need to feel and explore the feelings that we have. There are many triggers that can set us back, both conscious and unconscious. I have had dreams that cause anxiety in me the next day..absolutely no way to control one's dreams.

Quote
This week has just set me a little back in jumbling my head of mixed thoughts and emotions. Not really sure how I feel but just uncertainty. I have never been a person to handle crazy well and this has all been crazy insanity.

I have friends from HS from years past and there are still times when we talk to one another and process how things are going. These people are a vital part of my healing for they get it and they don't judge me at all for my thoughts and feelings and emotions.

Some other members of HS who have not read the story you posted might find it helpful so thank you for sharing it.

Sounds like you and your therapist are doing some really good work. It is hard not to analyze and think about reasons why the MLCer is doing certain things, even when we tell our brains to stop, they can go off in several directions which causes anxiety and I find fatigue. Recognizing the cause of the anxiety is an important step in helping, as your therapist has said, getting your empowerment back.

Take care..there really is no right or wrong way of processing this and everyone's situation is very different.
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"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

T
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Stopping the insanity
#107: October 14, 2021, 03:01:18 PM
Thank you xyzcf-
 I think for me going into the Holidays and really any trauma there is always something or someone that is struggling or going through something worse. There are always worse case scenarios. People making worse decisions and things that can not be reversed. I always find this helpful. At least for me. So, I thank god that I am not someone else at times.  So, I actually told him that maybe he should look at life that way. At least your not ..... fill in the blank .

His response…
“I'm trying to be at least….. I'm not hurting anyone but me anymore, however no matter what I do I still hurt you, that's killing me”

Yet, he has shown really no mercy in his actions since he left. His words and his actions don't match, but I also feel he really doesn’t want to hurt me. I just think he wants to find a way to live and he can’t have compassion for anyone but himself.

I think I will always respond to him if he reaches out. I don’t feel that will happen however. What I do know is I will no longer reach out to him. As long as he lives with her. That is a commitment that does not include me any longer.

 
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H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

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Re: Stopping the insanity
#108: October 14, 2021, 05:07:04 PM
I agree with you tornup, as long as he is with, or living with, the ow there will certainly be no friendship.

You have more respect for yourself than that. 
True friends have your back and will go out of their way not to hurt you.
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A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

T
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Stopping the insanity
#109: October 15, 2021, 07:52:42 AM
For me there have been times where love and devotion clouded my thinking and frankly my self respect for myself. Therapy is making me see that my whole life I have been the  STRONG one that no one had to worry about. The stable one. So much that when in pain no one seemed to notice, maybe not even me. In the last few weeks while in therapy I started to wake up to the fact that I was continuing to put this man before me. He has clearly not considered my past tragedies or even me as a human being when he consistently made decisions to disrespect not only me but,our children, himself and frankly our entire life.

We had been a great team. Built an amazing life that was just getting to the stage of being able to really enjoy all our accomplishments. I don't think in his confused state can really understand the impact of his choices and the ramifications that they are making in EVERYBODY’S forever.

What I do know is that I had to take my life back. I need some control of my future and I need to stop putting this man before me. I have to stop being so strong that everyone around me thinks that I am not affected. That he gets all the sympathy. He is NOT the victim. His family he left are the victims. I don't think he will ever be honest on why this all happened. He however moving in a woman that he truly barely knows shows that he continues to make decisions by the seat of his pants.

So, I had a conversation with S28 last night. I was vulnerable and honest with where I am and have been in all this for the first time . I told him that through all this I have made excuses for his father. That he wasn’t thinking straight. He wasn’t well. I have put him above me out of love and hoping he could turn it around, but I wasn’t acknowledging the pain that this has caused me. That this has hurt me terribly. I have been a friend to him and he has not been a friend to me and frankly he has treated me horrible. I still don't understand why this happened. I don't care for the OW and I would be lying if I said it was ok for him or D30 in my mind to embrace her. Yet, it is still their decision to make. That their father not only lied to me, but lied to them when he left. He has not handled any of this with anyone in mind except him and I have been left behind to pick up the pieces when our lives were in more turmoil than his.

 Not only have I tried to help their father, but tried to find any way possible to keep some friendship so that we could spend moments together as a family, but I have been working on my own. That he has been gone for a year. Everyone knew of the OW, but he chose to disclose it to you when he then also disclosed the move in and to insert meeting the OW girls. That was a lot to put out there in a few moments and then exit your lives again. I was left to hear your thoughts on it. To try and make sense of it with you. Something that hasn't made sense at all. That I have been his number one friend, but was the last to know. It’s not ok.

As I wrapped up I told him that I had to start thinking about me. That in 2 weeks when his dad moves her in our relationship/ friendship will need to end. I can not support the relationship and I can not be a friend to him as he has not been one to me as long as he is with her. I believe he is not well, but he could get help, but he doesn’t. He should have done what he said he was doing. Be by himself. Work through  his issues. He should have made sure his family was ok and stable. Something the true man I knew would have done. Instead this relationship he chose over us all. So, with that said I need some time. A break from conversations of him, so I am asking to refrain from mentioning father or OW for a little time. Give me a little time and space to move forward in my life and heal a bit. I need to break my cycle of savior to him and if I am hearing of the debauchery I can not heal.  I can’t break my need to step in and help. I can’t help him. He has to decide for himself that this life he is choosing is not working for him.

I was vulnerable. I for the first time admitted maybe I am not invincible. That I am human with a heart that not only beats, but breaks. And that it is ok to show you have been hurt and talk about it. My greatest hope is not only for me to get my empowerment back, but that by being vulnerable with my son that he knows he can always talk about his feelings. That he will be a better man for his partner with communication and vulnerability. I think many men get into this place because they are raised to be strong and not show emotions and so things build and then BAM!!!!  I want to change that in my son. I want him to be better than that. I want to break that cycle.

I know as I process this huge change for us all in the next 2 weeks that I have no idea what it will mean for any if us. How this will play out in the years to come. I actually don't want to think about HIM anymore. That is painful acknowledgment in itself. I thought we could make it through. I thought I would always love him. Now I am facing the fact it is truly over. I have a lot to work on now to move forward and not be bitter against someone I put so much love and energy into. This is my longest relationship and the first one that may not end in any friendship at all. That has been a devastating realization, but I have never been treated  with so little respect by anyone in my entire life.

Will our history and past love equal forgiveness? Will the break in our friendship make me more bitter or open my eyes more to what a fool I have been? Somehow I think it will and that’s why I hung on for fear if I didn’t love him through this I would  hate him for what he has done. I guess I will see what I am truly made of. Somehow I think my loving nature at my core will hope he finds himself and he makes me proud by owning his decisions that caused pain and in that will come forgiveness.


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« Last Edit: October 15, 2021, 08:05:42 AM by Tornup »
H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

T
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Stopping the insanity
#110: October 16, 2021, 06:25:13 PM
 Last night was torturous. XH dropped off dogs at almost midnight after driving after work from his state to mine. Got into a conversation before leaving that turned him into a crazed monster. He turned and with rage and black eyes yelled at me to stop talking. It was a deep crazy tone. His face close to mine. It was violent and attacking in nature.  He also held his head with both hands and said I can stop the voices as he bobbled his head back and forth and up and down. Make them stop!! Of course I am the voices. I have never in our 30 years have had him ever raise his voice or show any aggression towards me.

As I know all to well from this sight that R talks are to be avoided. I do normally avoid them, but with his disclosure of his move in with OW in 2 weeks I knew this would be the last time we talked as long as he is with her and moving in. He can not handle any type of R talk what so ever,obviously. Not a surprise and I should know better, but at this point I think I just didn’t care. Felt everything was ending anyways and I was calmly talking. I hate that my talking is making him crazy. I think that is so unfair, but this situation is unfair. I feel I should be the one that should be unhinged, but no…I have to be nice and make things easier for him???

The pure evil hatred that spewed made me feel like I was nothing. I meant nothing and felt like he wished I never existed. I will probably never get that vision from my mind. I don’t think I will ever see him the same again. It is going to take me a bit to recover from this. Sides of him keep revealing themselves and he is getting much worse. I am not liking at all what I am seeing. All because I have a few questions about my life only he can answer, but he doesn’t want to face what he did or be reminded. This is what results now? An unhinged man? Scary!!
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« Last Edit: October 16, 2021, 06:32:07 PM by Tornup »
H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

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Stopping the insanity
#111: October 16, 2021, 06:36:25 PM
Hi Tornup,

I can understand feeling like it was the last opportunity to talk to your H before OW moves in.  I did the same thing recently though text to communicate with my W as she appears to be pushing forward with the D.   It brought out the monster which I just had to ignore.   I communicated what I wanted and will leave her be.  You may not get the answers from your H but I hope that you can find peace apart from him. 

HF
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W - 42
M - 46
Together 19 years, M 17
2 kids
BD - July 2020
W Left Home - January 2021
W Filed for D - May 2021

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Stopping the insanity
#112: October 16, 2021, 07:33:02 PM
I am sorry that this happened Tornup.
We all want some answers and in normal relationships there can be a dialogue, even a fight that will allow each of us to say what we need to say.
I think we learn somewhere along the way that nothing is “normal” now and there is no room for questions or dialogue. We just will not get answers.
This makes us feel “ less than” and requires us to find our worth, without them.
In some ways, the less you know about any of his life, the easier it becomes.
If you think of the reaction when you confront a teenager about something they are doing that is wrong, and they lash out at you, in some ways his response is very much like this.
The idea of our husbands moving in with OW is very very hard to accept, and it hurts in places that we do not even know exist.
Get some rest and do what you need to do to calm your body and mind and bring yourself back to a place of evenness. The husband you knew is not this man. That is a hard idea to understand, we get it intellectually but our hearts take more convincing.
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"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

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Re: Stopping the insanity
#113: October 16, 2021, 07:36:15 PM
Oh my gosh Turnup I'm sorry but I do understand.

You probably felt this was the last ditch effort to get through to him...before he makes the ugly, bad decision to move her in, but he does not want to hear the reality of his
choice so he got angry.  His crazy mind is made up and you are not accepting his decision.

This is what MCLers do.   ::)

Nothing they do will make any sense to us.  Reasoning with them does no good.

All you can do, for now, is let him go for your own sanity.

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A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

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Re: Stopping the insanity
#114: October 16, 2021, 08:14:25 PM
TornUp I am very sorry you had that experience. It sounds truly awful and very painful. But I have a slightly different view to share. It is not meant to be unkind, rather to be helpful. The question is what did you expect? I mean if you are honest with yourself what were you hoping you would get?

I have been following your thread and posts. I do understand how hard this all has been with what has happened in the past. But from a distance I see you conflict, you understand what you need to do, what is going on. Yet it seems you still act in a way that is not in sync with that understanding. My concern is for you, how it may hurt you, how it impacts you.

The sad truth is he CAN NOT answer anything. Not because he doesn't want to (which may be the case), but because if he could answer you in a way that was satisfying you would not be in a place that would require asking the question. Does that make sense? Its like constantly engaging with crazy to try to make sense of things.

Please step back, step away and take care of yourself. Seeing his fracture in action will in no way heal you, and it will in no way provide answers or relief. Only letting go, accepting where things are right now and focus on yourself will get you there.
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No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

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Stopping the insanity
#115: October 16, 2021, 09:29:17 PM
Torn, for your own sake, I totally agree with Marvin.  You need to stop dancing with the devil if you ever want to make it out of hell.
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Stopping the insanity
#116: October 16, 2021, 10:33:05 PM
Quote
You may not get the answers from your H but I hope that you can find peace apart from him
HF- I know I never will as he is incapable of truth. I hope for peace as well. Thank you
Quote
The husband you knew is not this man. That is a hard idea to understand, we get it intellectually but our hearts take more convincing
xyzcf- I see it, I know it and now I just have to truly believe it
Quote
All you can do, for now, is let him go for your own sanity
Thunder- truer words have never been spoken. I am my own worst enemy right now. Have to pull it together and save myself
Quote
Please step back, step away and take care of yourself. Seeing his fracture in action will in no way heal you, and it will in no way provide answers or relief. Only letting go, accepting where things are right now and focus on yourself will get you there
Marvin- I know!! I am so trauma bonded that I am sabotaging myself. I have to fully get it together. This weekend is the moving on process. I am fully committed for my pride and sanity if nothing else
Quote
You need to stop dancing with the devil if you ever want to make it out of hell
BB- I do, I really do. I hate heat!!

In a crazy way seeing him this way I think will help me  have a new visual that he is not the man I knew and was fighting for. Let’s hope this is a turning point for me. He made a choice and I have to accept it.

 Crazy as it i, for him it’s not and I have no choice but to accept it and move on. I have made great progress, but I have been very easily drug back into the same pattern over and over. I dont linger in the effects anymore, but I have struggled with sticking with full detachment. My full focus is to change that starting NOW! I have to keep myself accountable. I will be deleting his phone number from my phone, so he is not so easily reachable. I think this will make a huge difference for me to stop my own insanity
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« Last Edit: October 16, 2021, 11:19:24 PM by Tornup »
H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

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Stopping the insanity
#117: October 16, 2021, 11:49:26 PM
Quote
I hate that my talking is making him crazy.
It isn’t.
His own hearing and seeing and doing is ‘making him crazy’.

Quote
I feel I should be the one that should be unhinged, but no…I have to be nice and make things easier for him???
Well, you don’t have to actually. Is anyone telling you that? So, if you think so, you might find it useful to unpick with your IC why you think you have to. There’s a lot of space between that and detached civility if needed.

And you probably are a little teeny bit ‘unhinged’ right now.  ::) I was at a similar stage  :) Trauma knocks us off centre and we are rarely our best wisest selves when we are caught up in it. I see you make grand declarations here...as you are doing again about THIS weekend being a turning point towards detachment. Understandable, but truthfully I think it is more like turning a supertanker....lots of small steps over time rather than a few big shifts. And smaller steps allow us to be a little gentler with ourselves perhaps? So, maybe try that? Don’t worry so much about detaching or anything in relationship to him...instead set yourself a smaller goal of self care and doing something nice this weekend. Doesn’t matter what, just something that calms and centres you a little.

Marvin is quite right. But you know that.
Quote
if he could answer you in a way that was satisfying you would not be in a place that would require asking the question.

When there is a gap between what we say and what we do, it is usually bc we are telling ourselves something else, a different story. Changing our POV on that can change our own behaviour. For instance, like that humorous phrase about no good deed going unpunished? Iirc your xh was there returning the dogs. He had the dogs bc he had said he missed them, so you changed your dogcare plans? Next time, you’ll probably make a different choice.....even as big humans, we do learn by touching the hot stove more than once sometimes, don’t we?

I’m sorry you had to experience that though, Tornup.

Out of interest, what are the questions about your life which you think only he can answer? And what do you plan to do with them if/when he doesn’t?
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« Last Edit: October 17, 2021, 12:25:34 AM by Treasur »
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.
Healing and growing found here https://littleplotbythesea.wordpress.com

"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

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Stopping the insanity
#118: October 16, 2021, 11:52:21 PM
Oh Torn,

I'm so sad you had to go thru that...... but it did have a purpose...... you got to see just how terrible it is.
Nothing more motivating to let go than a good kick in the teeth.
I'd also say that, when they monster, they're fighting with themselves very much. Mine also talked about the "voices" when she had the shark eyes going on. I have no idea what that must be like, but it sounds horrible.

Oh that terrible, sick feeling when you deal with them when they're like that. I'm so sorry Torn..... but I think you did the right thing. Communicating one more time, even if they can't hear you. I think it's right and good to say goodbye in your own way if you get the chance. Doesn't mean you don't get to say hello again one day in the future.
[hugs]

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W - 40
M - 44
Together 25 years, M 23
No kids
BD - 27th April 2019
Start of Shadow - Feb 2012

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Stopping the insanity
#119: October 17, 2021, 12:07:52 AM
And a PS

Quite a few of us here know that deeply painful feeling of not mattering, of being nothing to them.
I’m not sure it is true for ex/spouses like yours, although probably true that we no longer matter in the way we did or the way we want.
But writ large, it isn’t true that you don’t matter.
You are someone, not nothing, and you matter very much probably in more ways than you know.
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T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.
Healing and growing found here https://littleplotbythesea.wordpress.com

"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

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Stopping the insanity
#120: October 17, 2021, 02:17:55 AM
Quote

I feel I should be the one that should be unhinged, but no…I have to be nice and make things easier for him???
Well, you don’t have to actually. Is anyone telling you that? So, if you think so, you might find it useful to unpick with your IC why you think you have to. There’s a lot of space between that and detached civility if needed
I should clarify that I am more speaking in terms of no R talks. Be the lighthouse, etc.
Quote
I see you make grand declarations here...as you are doing again about THIS weekend being a turning point towards detachment. Understandable, but truthfully I think it is more like turning a supertanker....lots of small steps over time rather than a few big shifts. And smaller steps allow us to be a little gentler with ourselves perhaps?
I agree, I have done that, but it doesn’t stick for me. I think I have to find a way to make a clear total break. I have allowed his messed up psyche make me think he needs me and in some twisted way that has made me feel needed by him. That is only serving him however. I don't ever feel better for very long, It only allows manipulation  and more lies and those are the ones that then need answered. Not even answers from the relationship, but post relationship.
Quote
But writ large, it isn’t true that you don’t matter.
You are someone, not nothing, and you matter very much probably in more ways than you know
I think that is the biggest thing. There is a part of me that needs to know 30 Years wasn’t wasted. I have to decide for myself that it wasn’t and he may never being to validate me or the past enough to answer thaf.
Quote
Communicating one more time, even if they can't hear you. I think it's right and good to say goodbye in your own way if you get the chance. Doesn't mean you don't get to say hello again one day in the future
I think that was my intent. I also was out with some gals and had a few drinks. I actually tried to get my son  to meet his dad to let the dogs in so I didn’t have to see him. That didn’t work out. The alcohol allowed my inhibitions down to make the incorrect choice to R talk. I think I always know there is just never going to be the answers that I need for the lies that have been told. In truth there were so many and the ripple effect of the lies then just unfold more questions. I never feel better after these talks. They just make me have more questions.

What I do give myself grace on is that …. If I can’t  get it together?? Detach?? It is because I am at a place of turmoil of his making. He turned my life upside down. Personally if I need to ask 2 million questions to someone that vowed to share my life with me forever and continued after to say he wanted me in his life in some capacity then he should be answering other wise he does not want me in his life or shouldn’t expect me to be around without answers.

The continued lies are the answer that at least at this point I am not valued enough to get the truth, but honestly either is the OW as he has lied to her their entire relationship as well. He is not capable of being a partner to anyone right now. He is also being used by her. She see’s a meal ticket and a chance for a better life. I guess if he wants to be used and doesn’t see her for who she is that is telling of he is for now. Also, he jumped into this new relationship as a bandaid. If that was the answer he would not be in a worse place than when he left. He would be happier. He isn’t happier.

Like my therapist said. This relationship is not going to make it. He is continuing to make the same mistakes with the same behaviors and without working through his issues he will get the same result. I believe that. I think with her moving in and him transferring her to a different state it is a huge move by him. There is a part of me that doesn’t want to see it fall apart, because I don't think he can handle another failure and would not survive it. There is another side that wants to totally see it blow up in his face. More than I care to truly admit.
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« Last Edit: October 17, 2021, 02:30:50 AM by Tornup »
H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

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Stopping the insanity
#121: October 17, 2021, 06:27:17 AM
And all of those thoughts and feelings are so normal as an LBS after decades of a shared life, Tornup.
If you ever read back through my threads, you’ll see that I wrestled for a painfully (and doubtless boringly wordy long time for any readers lol) with those kind of questions.
I’m not sure tbh that I completely know the ‘answers’ now. Some I have settled in my own mind, some have become less important with time and distance from my old life, some I just had to end up with a kind of idk or more accurately probably idk his POV on it all but I know how it was for me. I don’t think there is a right answer always, just one you reach that you feel you can live with and different folks here reach different answers.

If Detaching (with a Big D) feels too big a step, maybe try going for something like Acceptance of the current realities and facts you see in the first instance? For example, that your h is no longer your h but your xh. That he lives somewhere else. That he has chosen to have a new life that does not include you or your family. That he does not much care how you feel or what you need bc he is focused on himself. Fill in your own list lol. I used to have a few factual reminders that I would have to repeat over and over in my head until, with time, my brain got used to it  :) The biggest one for me was that my then h simply did not care what I thought or felt about anything bc it was self evident that he didn’t, over and over again, but my word, it took a long time to really get that. Oh, and that he lied so much about so much, it was foolish to expect anything else.  :)

There truly is more than one way to ‘life hack’ a way out of this stage.  :)

Tbh I found basic Acceptance rather useful.....albeit occasionally painful too....just calling things and circumstances for what they seemed to be without much speculation on why made it easier (for me) to separate out what was on my side of the street and what was not. What I could choose and what I could not.  What was fact and what was not. But it does take a surprisingly long time which sucks.  ::)
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« Last Edit: October 17, 2021, 06:36:52 AM by Treasur »
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.
Healing and growing found here https://littleplotbythesea.wordpress.com

"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

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Stopping the insanity
#122: October 17, 2021, 06:46:10 AM
Quote
If you ever read back through my threads, you’ll see that I wrestled for a painfully (and doubtless boringly wordy long time for any readers lol) with those kind of questions
I have read your story and see that. Sometimes that is helpful to know that those giving the very advise they needed struggled and that is why they have the knowledge, but also that they were advised and still had to find their own way. You know what you have to do, but just can’t do it. I had a very seriously relationship in high school that ended abruptly. It took me 10 years to get over it. To be honest even after getting married I thought that old BF was my true love that got away and many times in my marriage I thought of him. My love for my XH evolved. I had to work to love him fully, but when I did , I really did. Their is some ego check on someone that relentlessly pursued you leaving you. Their is some imaturity in myself on this and my reactions at times.  I think I just don’t unlove easily.

I think now 30 years and a lost daughter we tried to save in her last moments makes it very hard to accept it being over. I find it hard to think of sharing a life with someone who didn’t know my D14. Starting October 1st with D14 bday my XH starts having the nightmares play over in his head. This is when he always makes crazy decisions in life that are forever altering. What I have started to realize is I was there in those final moments as well. Doing that CPR. I think that is why I am hard for him to be with. I am part of his worst nightmare. Looking at me is that constant reminder when he is awake. I cant fix or change that for him.
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« Last Edit: October 17, 2021, 07:28:40 AM by Tornup »
H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

N

Nas

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Stopping the insanity
#123: October 17, 2021, 07:28:57 AM

What I do give myself grace on is that …. If I can’t  get it together?? Detach?? It is because I am at a place of turmoil of his making. He turned my life upside down. Personally if I need to ask 2 million questions to someone that vowed to share my life with me forever and continued after to say he wanted me in his life in some capacity then he should be answering other wise he does not want me in his life or shouldn’t expect me to be around without answers.

The continued lies are the answer that at least at this point I am not valued enough to get the truth, but honestly either is the OW as he has lied to her their entire relationship as well. He is not capable of being a partner to anyone right now. He is also being used by her. She see’s a meal ticket and a chance for a better life. I guess if he wants to be used and doesn’t see her for who she is that is telling of he is for now. Also, he jumped into this new relationship as a bandaid. If that was the answer he would not be in a worse place than when he left. He would be happier. He isn’t happier.

Like my therapist said. This relationship is not going to make it. He is continuing to make the same mistakes with the same behaviors and without working through his issues he will get the same result. I believe that. I think with her moving in and him transferring her to a different state it is a huge move by him. There is a part of me that doesn’t want to see it fall apart, because I don't think he can handle another failure and would not survive it. There is another side that wants to totally see it blow up in his face. More than I care to truly admit.

I’m sorry he was horrible to you, I know that kind of interaction puts you off your footing and makes it hard to get back to a place of thinking with logic before emotion rather than vice versa. Been there, felt the crushing despair, which I why I’ll say the dreadfully unhelpful *right now* phrase that in TIME, you’ll feel better. You’re getting great compassionate advice here.

I will also loudly echo Marvin’s statement that if he were in a place where he could satisfactorily answer you, you wouldn’t need to be asking anything in the first place.

As to what I quoted above, please know I say this from a place of compassion, having been there and knowing the pain.
Your divorce is final, correct? The financials are settled, correct? If you are currently in “a place of turmoil of his making,” that’s where I’d urge you to start in the detachment/healing process.

I get in trouble sometimes for saying this, but I wholeheartedly believe it. He created all of the pain that you were in at bomb drop, when you found out about the affair, when he divorced you. He is not *actively* creating turmoil for you anymore though. Unless you let him. This is where the lbs takes back their power. In actuality, a person can only hurt you once with their action. They can hurt you multiple times with multiple actions, but then once the action has occurred and ended, it’s not them actually doing the hurting anymore. It’s the residue of what they did that is still with us and that we need to work through. But we get to choose whether or not we continue to focus on them and how much they hurt us or whether we focus on healing that and not letting that initial hurt have a prominent place in our lives going forward.

As I said, I get a lot of heat for that statement. But I believe it. And I also know it’s easier said than done, so please don’t think that I am telling you to just “suck it up, butter cup.” I’m not. I know how much pain you’re in. I know how much it hurts. But he’s made choices that no doubt were crushing when you learned about them. But now you know. Now you know what his choices are. And now you’re divorced so you know what the results of those choices are. And now you have 100% of the power to decide whether or not you were going to focus on that hurt as if it’s an ongoing incurable disease, or if you’re going to treat the disease and create a new normal for your life.

The two paragraphs that follow that statement about the “turmoil of his making” are entirely about him, his affair partner and predicting her motives for being with him and whether the relationship will last. there’s also some overt codependency in stating that you hope his new relationship last because he can’t handle another failure. His failures and how he copes with them are not yours.

This future predicting about the OW is a line of thinking that you need to stop pronto because there is no knowing any of it and it very likely may not turn out the way that you think. And I think it is very unethical if indeed your therapist discussed this with you and made the prediction that the relationship will not last. My therapist would never discuss my husband’s affair partner or make a bold statement that it won’t last, because 1) my therapist doesn’t know either of them and only knows my version of them and the events I told her about, and 2) in MLC or not, built on lies or not, no one knows which relationships will last or why. 

Focusing on this will bring you nothing but will divert attention from creating your own life.
You say that there are questions that you need to ask him about your life. Treasur asked you if you could elaborate on this, and you don’t have to share them here, but I would urge you to ask yourself if you really need his input or if you can handle these life decisions yourself.
If there are still financial issues that need to be sorted out that we’re not already sorted out in the divorce settlement, that’s one thing. But anything else, a good first step would be realizing that whatever it is, even though it matters to you, and even though the old him would have stepped in to help you, that’s not the case anymore and you get to create your own life now. I don’t think of it as needing his input, think of it as you get to move forward the way you want without his input. Flip it around, this is your life now. So long as your financial separation from him is secure and legally finalized, you get 100% say in how it goes.
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#124: October 17, 2021, 07:46:23 AM
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Trauma knocks us off centre and we are rarely our best wisest selves when we are caught up in it. I see you make grand declarations here...as you are doing again about THIS weekend being a turning point towards detachment. Understandable, but truthfully I think it is more like turning a supertanker....lots of small steps over time rather than a few big shifts. And smaller steps allow us to be a little gentler with ourselves perhaps? So, maybe try that? Don’t worry so much about detaching or anything in relationship to him...instead set yourself a smaller goal of self care and doing something nice this weekend. Doesn’t matter what, just something that calms and centres you a little.

I totally agree with Treasur. You cannot tell yourself "ok, I'm going to detach now" because there are so many layers and this takes a lot of time. If the goal is totally detachment as of this moment going forward, you may blame yourself when the next time he comes around and you are not "as "detached" as you think you "should be". There is no "should"..as you wrote:

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Sometimes that is helpful to know that those giving the very advise they needed struggled and that is why they have the knowledge, but also that they were advised and still had to find their own way. You know what you have to do, but just can’t do it.

Each of our situations are different and ultimately we "learn" what works best in our own situation. There are no absolutes and what is ok for one poster is not ok for another. You are a capable adult woman, perhaps used to being able to control situations (the loss of your daughter taught you that you cannot "control" things as you would like. I think that this loss makes the detachment from your husband more difficult perhaps).

You can control contact levels. As I have mentioned, I went 19 months without contact other than taking care of legal issues through our attorneys. As you know, after that I determined what level of contact I could handle...and as my therapist said, you can choose to see him one day and not see him another. That is in my control.

Some people think that if they have not had contact for a week or two that they have turned a corner. That may be true but I suspect is not the norm. The amount of time it can take to recover is lengthy, rocky and we slip back, especially around special dates or even hearing a song we both loved or visiting a place tat was special to us.


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Tbh I found basic Acceptance rather useful.....albeit occasionally painful too....just calling things and circumstances for what they seemed to be without much speculation on why made it easier (for me) to separate out what was on my side of the street and what was not. What I could choose and what I could not.  What was fact and what was not. But it does take a surprisingly long time which sucks.  ::)

just calling things and circumstances for what they seemed to be without much speculation on why

This allowed me to accept that I was not going to get any answers, I needed to accept and move on...but again, that took many years.

There is a thread that members wrote about the reasons their MLCers gave them for ending their marriages. Quite telling. The only time my husband ever answered that question was to tell me "you are too intense and you talk too much". Ok, those things are true..but they had been true for 35 years and never once was that a problem...and really, this is what caused you to leave? Hogwash.

So even if he does give you an "answer" it may not have any truth or make any sense.

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I find it hard to think of sharing a life with someone who didn’t know my D14.

Perhaps do not look so far ahead. There are worse things in life than being without a partner. Let life unfold and see where it takes you.

And SS's calm and truthful comment
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I'm so sorry Torn..... but I think you did the right thing. Communicating one more time, even if they can't hear you. I think it's right and good to say goodbye in your own way if you get the chance. Doesn't mean you don't get to say hello again one day in the future.
[hugs]

You probably will not get the answers that you seek, and eventually we stop asking. Anything they say while in crisis will change in a minute anyway.....indeed I don't think they know why they are doing what they are doing.

The physical manifestations, dark eyes and rage is both concerning but also gives you an idea of how much turmoil he is in.

Be gentle with yourself. Don't be so hard on yourself...heck, it took 1 1/2 years with a second therapist to get me to a "better place" and that was many years after BD....and I don't think I could have got there any sooner. The time was right and many long term LBSers still struggle with the life that is gone, that was never our decision, and that we had no control over.
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« Last Edit: October 17, 2021, 07:49:45 AM by xyzcf »
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

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#125: October 17, 2021, 08:04:37 AM
NAS- My therapist did in fact say that to me. At the end of our last session. Maybe in terms of someone that does not deal with their issues will continue to have issues. IDK.

On the questions… I think I tried to separate from him many times and he kept telling me he didn’t know if he would survive without me. That was selfish on his part, because I invested more time and energy on him instead of working on me. So, now I am more hurt post divorce that he was selfish at my expense. If he was headed in this direction to move in with someone he should not have been keeping me hanging on, but I allowed it. I started seeing glimpse of him. Some remorse for what he did and where he was. Him missing his life and family. Telling me he wanted it all back but didn’t know how to get there. It did give me hope.

As far as financials. He pays me weekly alimony for another 12 years. Sometimes he will not pay it as a way to get me to contact him if I pull away. Also, we have season tickets that we share for NFL and I handle those but we split the games and sell ones we dont use. We have to communicate on those, but going forward that can be done by email. Little harder, but will make it work. We also share vet billing, but I send that through email.

Also, we do have our daughters public memorial walkway/ musical playground and room at RMH that we are obligated to together for life. I informed the city we will not renew the adopt a street clean up. I try now to just take care of most on my end but send half billing to him. It is heart wrenching I worked so hard to put in place so many things for our family to honor her and it still was not enough and now those things are painful because we are not able to do them as a family.

I just have a lot to work through and the death of our daughter is a part of it again. I worked through it all many years ago, but now with all this and the existing obligations set in place I feel I have it all on my shoulders to keep them going and maintained. It is now not feeling in her honor, but a heavy weight that turned on me. I am resentful that what he has done has made that my feelings on it. I think I am just building a lot of hate for him now. That has never been there. It was always loss and love.

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You can control contact levels. As I have mentioned, I went 19 months without contact other than taking care of legal issues through our attorneys. As you know, after that I determined what level of contact I could handle...and as my therapist said, you can choose to see him one day and not see him another. That is in my control
xyzcf-I know I need space and time away. To get my footing. My sanity. My pride back in myself. To not allow his manipulation to confuse me. That is what I have to figure out. How to not want to reach out, but one thing I know is when he is with her I am able to refrain from contact. With her moving in in 2 weeks that should be what make the contact stop for me. That however is scary. For me I know it is probably over. I have lived in the torment and savior mode for many years. It is hard to just SHUT OFF. Redirect my thoughts to only me. That in itself is making me feel a little insane. I am a controlling personality.
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The only time my husband ever answered that question was to tell me "you are too intense and you talk too much". Ok, those things are true..but they had been true for 35 years and never once was that a problem...and really, this is what caused you to leave?
This is one of the reasons my gave. Said he cant talk about what he did to me. He can’t live with being reminded of it and I can’t stop talking about it. I guess that is why I am the voice in his head. Again, he needs to acknowledge and forgive himself. It is not my place to do that for him and I can be held accountable for his actions. I ultimately am paying the price for him not being able to face me for what he did. Not what I did. What he did. That is twisted in itself.
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There is a thread that members wrote about the reasons their MLCers gave them for ending their marriages. Quite telling
I will have to find that. I am sure a lot of the same across the board. Will try and find it
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« Last Edit: October 17, 2021, 08:23:39 AM by Tornup »
H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

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#126: October 17, 2021, 10:39:54 AM
Hi, Tornup

Don't be too hard on yourself. I see people here and on the FB group that have been in this for much longer than either of us, and they still make mistakes. I have a lot of respect for people who have to deal with regular contact with the MLCspouse (for family, etc). I have a hard enough time without talking to my W, but that barrier of having to pick up a phone or computer to reach out to her (or drive to SIL's house, I suppose) at least gives me a buffer. I can prevent myself from doing that. If W was here, or I saw her in person, it would be hard to not react, or say something. I seemed to do well helping her move out, so I would hope that I would only react better as time goes on, but at the same time I could be building up things inside of me that would turn into a big ol' ball of relationship vomit if the pin were pulled.

Hang in there.

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#127: October 17, 2021, 11:45:51 AM
JB- so true. I think the first 3 months I handled everything. All in my own fog. He wanted out? I was going to let him and divorce him and do it quickly. I financially secured my future, I packed all his belongings, I handled the entire divorce. He walked away and I did EVERYTHING! That gave me empowerment in the situation , but also emotionally busy. Once it was all done I think is when OH crap!!! This really is happening???

So, much of my dealing started at 4 months and  delayed my dealings. So, there is a part of me that feels I was duped. I am just now trying to grasp that in the end no matter why or how I handled it then or now it doesn’t matter. He left. He isn’t choosing me. Whether of sound mind or not. I saw on a thread from a couple years ago a quote from NAS that rings true for me. I struggle I was married to someone that is treating me so disrespectful. They can leave in a respectful manner. That either means they always had a character flaw that we didn't see which is disheartening or they are not thinking straight, but trying to come to terms with either way I have to stop trying to control or change the narrative. It is what it is.
 
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  My H is the one who made vows to me.  My H is the one who was supposed to have my back.  My H is the one who abandoned me.  OW is garbage, but to me, H is worse.  I always considered myself pretty "street smart" with a really good b.s. detector, but I was naive to the kind of selfishness that could exist in people until this happened
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H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

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#128: October 17, 2021, 12:00:55 PM
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They can leave in a respectful manner. That either means they always had a character flaw that we didn't see which is disheartening or they are not thinking straight, but trying to come to terms with either way I have to stop trying to control or change the narrative.
MLCers do  not leave in a respectful style. And they do not treat us fairly although we "expect" that they will.

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That either means they always had a character flaw that we didn't see

I do not believe this to be true. 30 plus years, we knew their strengths and their weaknesses...something catastrophic happened to them. The "stories" and the "scripts' are too similar and too strange...this is something other than a "marriage" gone bad.

I know that you are reading many threads and I wanted to mention two in particular.

Acorn spoke today about a conversation she had with her post crisis husband. During his crisis, ( BD Feb 2015) he was not able to communicate with her in this way. He is well past his crisis and he yet the pieces are still coming together. You want your husband to explain, he and people in a MLC cannot do that until they are well past the crisis.

Barbiedoll is the other story that came to mind. ( BD April 2013) In spite of intense therapy for both of them, her husband is still not able to answer to her what she wants/needs to hear.

Just two examples of how their crisis changes things, and they are not able to communicate normally, and for many, they never will.

Many LBSer's feel they need an apology, to see remorse or hear answers to what the heck happened.....but they may never get them, for a variety of reasons.

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I am just now trying to grasp that in the end no matter why or how I handled it then or now it doesn’t matter.

That is 100% correct. letting go of the idea that we could have done something is a big step on the road to our personal healing.
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« Last Edit: October 17, 2021, 12:05:20 PM by xyzcf »
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

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#129: October 17, 2021, 12:22:28 PM
JB- so true. I think the first 3 months I handled everything. All in my own fog. He wanted out? I was going to let him and divorce him and do it quickly. I financially secured my future, I packed all his belongings, I handled the entire divorce. He walked away and I did EVERYTHING! That gave me empowerment in the situation , but also emotionally busy. Once it was all done I think is when OH crap!!! This really is happening???

So, much of my dealing started at 4 months and  delayed my dealings. So, there is a part of me that feels I was duped. I am just now trying to grasp that in the end no matter why or how I handled it then or now it doesn’t matter. He left. He isn’t choosing me. Whether of sound mind or not. I saw on a thread from a couple years ago a quote from NAS that rings true for me. I struggle I was married to someone that is treating me so disrespectful. They can leave in a respectful manner. That either means they always had a character flaw that we didn't see which is disheartening or they are not thinking straight, but trying to come to terms with either way I have to stop trying to control or change the narrative. It is what it is.
 
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  My H is the one who made vows to me.  My H is the one who was supposed to have my back.  My H is the one who abandoned me.  OW is garbage, but to me, H is worse.  I always considered myself pretty "street smart" with a really good b.s. detector, but I was naive to the kind of selfishness that could exist in people until this happened

Ha, I don’t know how far along I was when I said this, but I would not have known it was something I said if you didn’t tell me. ;)
I’m glad my former words may have helped you some, but I also realize how much I’ve been through and worked through since then, and how none  of that journey had anything to do with my former husband or my marriage. It sparked a thought - taking it to my own thread so as not to hijack.
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#130: October 17, 2021, 12:45:56 PM
NAS
Discussion Re: The Alienator: Who, Why How… Questions, Research, Sharing
#150: June 27, 2019

https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=10825.msg731848#msg731848

Xyzcf-
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Acorn spoke today about a conversation she had with her post crisis husband. During his crisis, ( BD Feb 2015) he was not able to communicate with her in this way. He is well past his crisis and he yet the pieces are still coming together. You want your husband to explain, he and people in a MLC cannot do that until they are well past the crisis.

Barbiedoll is the other story that came to mind. ( BD April 2013) In spite of intense therapy for both of them, her husband is still not able to answer to her what she wants/needs to hear
I follow and have read both. Even when you read and know your emotions and self serving need and dismiss it at times. That’s what I am trying to deal with. I think the monstering in my face was really a wake up call to the udder crisis he is in and I can’t wipe it from my mind. It very well be the reason I am able to finally disconnect. I feel a bit mentally dilapidated from it.

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« Last Edit: October 17, 2021, 12:54:30 PM by Tornup »
H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

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Re: Stopping the insanity
#131: October 17, 2021, 05:37:58 PM
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I get in trouble sometimes for saying this, but I wholeheartedly believe it. He created all of the pain that you were in at bomb drop, when you found out about the affair, when he divorced you. He is not *actively* creating turmoil for you anymore though. Unless you let him. This is where the lbs takes back their power. In actuality, a person can only hurt you once with their action. They can hurt you multiple times with multiple actions, but then once the action has occurred and ended, it’s not them actually doing the hurting anymore. It’s the residue of what they did that is still with us and that we need to work through. But we get to choose whether or not we continue to focus on them and how much they hurt us or whether we focus on healing that and not letting that initial hurt have a prominent place in our lives going forward.

As I said, I get a lot of heat for that statement. But I believe it.

I do, too. It's very freeing! Energy flows where our attention goes. If we focus on our spouse, we will continue to feed into anxiety, grief, pain, depression, all of the things that make us feel bad and uncertain. Focusing on the things that make us feel stable, happy, and strong in our own identities will help us heal. It takes time, but it happens. In looking back, I can only feel that BD was really that magic start point where my xH told the last truth I'd hear from him. Everything to that point he'd done to conceal his affair, his financial abuse, all of the betrayal, ended in that moment. Not in the clearest of words, but ultimately, he said, "I'm no longer in this partnership, and there are no expectations you can place on me for your happiness and wellbeing." Had I taken it that way, I would have saved myself a lot of burden of looking for clues, of trying to interpret his actions, in thinking he'd snap out of this in some logical manner. But I eventually learned and grew.
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#132: October 17, 2021, 05:52:37 PM
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I can only feel that BD was really that magic start point where my xH told the last truth I'd hear from him. Everything to that point he'd done to conceal his affair, his financial abuse, all of the betrayal, ended in that moment. Not in the clearest of words, but ultimately, he said, "I'm no longer in this partnership, and there are no expectations you can place on me for your happiness and wellbeing."
R2T-what a great way to look at it. I completely agree that changing the focus would change everything. I don’t know why I struggle with letting go. With not accepting my reality. I can not seem to get over the shock of it all. I go back to the fact my history of a terrible divorce with my own parents that was horrific and never ended until they both passed kept me from not letting go. To try and be the exception. Remain friends. Help the unhelpable. I think not finding this site until 4 months ago delayed things for me as well. I was already in save and rescue. Sometimes in all this he makes me feel like I am the insane one. Their ability to be unaffected can come off to others that they are the sane ones. That in itself makes me insane. I love what you stated. It really is so very true and accurate. Another printable mirror post!!
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H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

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#133: October 17, 2021, 07:33:38 PM
I am sorry about what happened to you. Sadly, that kind of behavior can continue or get worse.

When my xh and I worked out the financials, he took the retirement, I took the house and all the debt and repairs. I told him his retirement was in his name and I  didnt need to sign anything, but he needed to sign the house over to me. He would not sign it over to me, though. It didn't matter to me at the time, I wasn't selling, could pay the loan and didn't need to refinance.  A year later, he needed to get off the loan (to buy another house ), and it was insane. He had no idea what he was doing, I was to meet him at the bank, but they would not notarized the documents and I told him they would not and he might want a backup plan. He gets there before I and surprise, they would not notarize the docs. He takes off for another notary and texts me to meet him. I get there, we wait in line. I am, by this point, completely detached and going along for the ride. We get to the notary. He notaries the house papers and tells xh that xh doesn't need any signature from me for the retirement. Xh says "I don't?" To which I said "Your retirement is in your name. I you don't need my signature."

XH turned to me, his face got completely red and he screamed "You know EVERYTHING, don't you?" Everyone turned and looked at him. I calmly said "I don't know everything, I just knew that".

Back to the bank, where the people helping with the loan gave me the most sympathetic looks (I have no idea what happened when he was there previously).  He literally throws the papers at the woman, who sorts and copies and tells him he can go now as soon as she is sure she has what she needs from him. He angrily walks away. The bank woman looks at me and says "are you ok?" And I say "I'm fine, why? " She says "I thought we were going to have to call security on him before."

None of it is about you.  Nothing you do or don't do will change or affect anything except you. Please separate yourself from what he does. Every time he does something he knows is wrong, he has to make you the bad guy, imo,  so he can justify what he is doing. You do not have to play that part in his little drama.

Separate the life that was to the life that is. If you can learn from the past, great, but you cannot change it. You can make your own future.
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#134: October 18, 2021, 07:07:57 AM
OffRoad- I absolutely know that to be true. He rages when I ask him questions because he DOES NOT WANT TO TALK ABOUT IT. He has said many times that hurting me is killing him. That why it is beyond crazy that he keeps inflicting so much pain. I have read so many threads and what I see are men and women not acknowledging  they are doing anything wrong. Mine says it’s all his fault. H admits hates himself. Says he is the worst person he knows. What I see mostly is men just blaming their spouse. Mine seems to take responsibility for changing, but I am still the one he has to leave to survive. So, the. Isn’t that still misdirected blame?

I am in the end the one that is being easily cut out of his life. I feel pretty pathetic sometimes worrying about how he perceives me. It’s the hardest for me. That I feel at the bottom of the totem pole of his concern. He cared enough to finally tell his kids he was moving in with OW. He didn’t tell me. Even though he said I would be the first to know. To only find out from him he knew for 3 weeks while telling me he had t decided. The text he was coming with furniture to drop off was how I was told. I just struggle with being the one he cries to and still tells his deepest despair to, but then other times I am not worthy of respect.

They make you feel like you should be the one locked up in a padded room. My mother was very unhinged. Not a stable human. Could be loving and funny one minute and psychotic the next in a fuming rage. I never felt like I knew who she was truly. I think I spent my life walking on eggs shells with her. I think my XH behavior is taping into that for me and just seeing him headed there is where my savior mode is kicking in. Just like my Mom there is nothing I can do. I know that, but by the time my mother passed I had very little feelings or little affect on me emotionally. I think I know once I let go of him I may feel the same and I hate that.

I just think I am at a point where I keep thinking why again. What else? How many times can I pick myself up just for something else to happen? Then I think that is so selfish. Many have much bigger problems then having a mentally unstable man walk out. I live comfortably, financially secure, have my kids, grandson and my sweet dogs. I need to just keep focusing on the good.

I do realize that he is sick, and his life is not getting better. The movie I am playing in my head that they will happily ever after is not real. I haven’t lost anything. He has lost everything. When I try to remember that I feel better. I feel I can move on. I feel like he did me a favor. If he can’t fix himself at least he left so I had a chance at a better life as he keeps saying. Then that shows how much he thinks of the OW?? I guess he doesn’t care if he now destroys her life or I guess since she had nothing and financially she will live a life she never dreamed of he thinks that is enough to pay her for dealing with him. I also remain his beneficiary or his life insurance policies and 401k if he passes. In the will it states no one can benefit from his death but me. There is some love there.

I have always been such a strong and self confident woman my entire life. That’s how I have gotten through so many tragedies. The fact that now I have to be in therapy to get my life back on track as a result of someone elses actions is disturbing, but I think therapy will be my best friend for possibly years to come.
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« Last Edit: October 18, 2021, 07:42:14 AM by Tornup »
H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

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#135: October 18, 2021, 07:37:01 AM
The fact that now I have to be in therapy to get my life back on track as a result of someone elses actions is disturbing, but I think therapy will be my best friend for possibly years to come.

It might help to change the perspective from "I have to be in therapy because of his actions" to "I am choosing to be in therapy to learn about myself and to gain insight that will help me never again feel like someone else's actions have control over me."

A good question to ask whenever you find yourself in a position of analyzing his words or actions is: Is he hurting me, or am I hurt by this?
Sounds simple, but nearly 100% of the time the answer is the latter.

Pre-BD, at BD and just after, when everything is revealed, those things are hurt directly caused by him. Finding out our spouse is having an affair is a kind of pain that's hard to describe to anyone who hasn't experienced it.

Once the affair is revealed and our spouse is with the AP, it's no longer them hurting us. It's now a reality that we don't like and hurts to accept. (I posted a link to an article on this on Acorn's thread that speaks to just this - I read it in terms of dealing with things outside of MLC, but it could be very much useful in thinking about life post-BD as well.)

To be clear, I'm not saying you're wrong to be hurting and he's done nothing wrong. He did a lot of things wrong. But now the new reality is known and accepting it is all you can do. As R2T said, his words and actions have very much told you where he's at (his manipulative "I'm such a loser, I hate myself" speeches notwithstanding - those are very much a way to assuage his guilt, not a harbinger of any future reversal of course).

I'll never forget the post in my very early days when R2T told me [paraphrasing badly]: "He's recoupled, and he's moving forward with that new relationship. All you can do is move forward yourself."
It hurt like hell to hear that. It hurt to admit it was 100% reality and doing anything but admitting that that was the reality would render me as dysfunctional as I was proclaiming my former H to be.

I'm incredibly grateful to her for making that comment to me years ago. What she said in her post here on your thread is pure kindness:

Quote
I can only feel that BD was really that magic start point where my xH told the last truth I'd hear from him. Everything to that point he'd done to conceal his affair, his financial abuse, all of the betrayal, ended in that moment. Not in the clearest of words, but ultimately, he said, "I'm no longer in this partnership, and there are no expectations you can place on me for your happiness and wellbeing."


Now that all the hidden things have been revealed, now that you are divorced and he is making choices for himself and OW, any hurt you feel comes from expectations that he has already told you in words and actions you should not place on him because they will not be met. 

I'm so sorry, TornUp, we all know how much this hurts, and we all know it will hurt for a lot longer than any of us would like it to and we wish there was a magic solution to make it stop. But try to separate the hurt you feel from him or his actions because they are now separate things.  The sooner you accept your new reality, the sooner you will stop feeling like he's got the power to hurt you.
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#136: October 18, 2021, 07:50:40 AM
Nas-

I agree. I do. I think he did a disservice to me a few weeks ago when he told me he wanted his family back and that he thought of working things out with me, but he couldn’t find a way to do it. He can’t sleep at night because he misses his family so much. Specially when with her. Telling me he didn’t want tonlive a life without me. He still loved me. That gave me false hope. Made me think he was coming around slowly. Maybe he was and got scared and went further in the tunnel and now that is where he will stay, but the only thing now I can do is move on. I get it. I know it. Now I just have to figure out how to put all the mind f**ckery behind me so I can do it. Only I can do it. I have been through worse. Surely I can do it. I have read enough to see so many of you have.

I’m like a new born fawn wobbling to stand and get on with my new life. Once I stand I should be able to run with no problem.
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« Last Edit: October 18, 2021, 08:15:20 AM by Tornup »
H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

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#137: October 18, 2021, 08:13:12 AM
Understandable, we all take a while to get to a place where the pain is not actively gnawing at us from the second we open our eyes in the morning. But you will get to that place.

I also understand how his words can mess with your healing. Lots of us heard so many conflicting and contradicting statements early on. My former H told me leaving would "put him in the ground" and he couldn't think of the image of me with another man because he'd "have to kill himself" (and even in clearly hyperbolic reference, that's so selfishly manipulative). So yeah, when they're babbling on about what they want and how they feel, it's easy to get your hopes up that this person who left might want to come back, but the more likely reason they say these things is that their own brains are trying to process what they've done and they're so selfishly self-absorbed, they don't realize or care what the impact of their words might have. They just spew things out for their own benefit, then they jump out of the way of the guilt avalanche and let it land where it may, which is usually on us.

If he truly can't sleep at night because he misses his family so much, he would be home with his family who has made it clear to him that he's welcome back.  Right now, he's got complete access to his family, to you, to your listening ear, to knowing you'll be on the other end of the phone whenever he wants just like you always have been, so moving in with OW probably feels less scary because he knows his safety blanket is still in his sight and he can reach out for it when he feels the need. He won't know what it's like to live without you while you're still (to his mind) there, and you're more than a safety blanket. He thinks you're still a constant in his life, which in a perverse way probably gives him the courage to take the next steps with OW (I get heat for statements like this too, but I also believe this - just like a child feels safe going off into the world when their mom is still fixed in place at the childhood home should anything go wrong.)

He made choices, let him live with them. You are hurting from a big loss of the life you knew for many, many years, and it'll hurt for a long time and the shadow of that may always be there, but you also have the means and stability to now create a life that is yours. You don't have to rush into making a million changes right now, but at the very least, start to embrace the fact that you have options and imagine all the possibilities available to you. It might even start to feel fun batting around ideas.
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Re: Stopping the insanity
#138: October 18, 2021, 08:17:00 AM
If he truly can't sleep at night because he misses his family so much, he would be home with his family who has made it clear to him that he's welcome back. 

TurnUp: you are getting great advice from everyone, from people with personal experience, from people who have helped many others in the situation you are in. I think your head understands but your emotions are still stuck in the past.

Maybe start with this ONE SIMPLE great line. Forget about what he "says," stop talking, stop analyzing his confused and jumbled words. It doesn't matter if he "means it" or is "lying" or is "in pain." He is fractured and has no coherence. You are trying to "understand" and react to confusion and madness. In my book its exactly the same as sticking your hand in the blender every time after saying "oh I get it!"

Only thing that matters are actions, not words. Its where true final "motivation" is revealed. Start with this, add on the fact that you are NOT responsible for him or his well being. I think its a good beginning one/two.
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No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

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#139: October 18, 2021, 08:17:14 AM
Man!...I just have so much to say to this conversation! But soo little time today! Damn!    But what I will quickly add is this :  Tornup , YOU keep interrupting his crisis . YOU keep him distracted with all your questions , statements and observations . YOU keep him from facing himself , from feeling the pain of missing his family ( until he is ready to do something about it...or not ) . YOU are keeping him from fully feeling and facing the man he is.  Leave him 100% to his own devices and crisis ...100% shut it all down.  Bow out...its not about you !.   I sometimes feel they have stranded themselves on some deserted island . They have done that to themselves as a result of their own actions, choices, reactions, behaviours . They need to figure out how to get off the island ...they messy painful island they put themselves on. Stop taking him fresh water, food, homemade baking, clean clothes etc....why would he try to make his own way off the island. ???  . Leave him sit there and figure it out himself. Period.
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Married April 1985
5 children
Bomb Drop April 2013
Thrown out of house August 2013
Affair discovered November 2013 (i guessed who)
Home December 3 2013
The Journey Of Reconciliation .. is for the brave .

Anger is like a candle in the wind ... it blows out the light of all reason.

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#140: October 18, 2021, 08:21:05 AM
Nas-
Quote
He thinks you're still a constant in his life, which in a perverse way probably gives him the courage to take the next steps with OW
I fully agree with this. Even more I think they have lost nothing. They have no idea how it is to actually lost the love of someone of 30 years, because they haven’t . They have in fact the best of both worlds. They can see if this new life is what they really need with no risk. FACT!  I need to bring back my self pride and frankly flip a finger up at the situation and him if that is what it takes and MOVE ON!! I need to focus on all the badZ at least for awhile
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H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

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#141: October 18, 2021, 08:29:37 AM
 
Quote
Maybe start with this ONE SIMPLE great line. Forget about what he "says," stop talking, stop analyzing his confused and jumbled words. It doesn't matter if he "means it" or is "lying" or is "in pain." He is fractured and has no coherence. You are trying to "understand" and react to confusion and madness. In my book its exactly the same as sticking your hand in the blender every time after saying "oh I get it!"
Marvin-YES!!! I know you are exactly right!!!
Quote
keep interrupting his crisis . YOU keep him distracted with all your questions , statements and observations . YOU keep him from facing himself , from feeling the pain of missing his family ( until he is ready to do something about it...or not ) . YOU are keeping him from fully feeling and facing the man he is
Barbie- also SPOT ON. I know the mistakes I am making. The mind F**ery just keeps messing with me.

Thank you to all!! The brutal honestly has me in tears today, because I know at this point I am the cause of my own inflicted trauma and pain and only I can change that PERIOD!!! I needed this. I need to know that I and I alone am in control going forward. I have become my own worst enemy and I need to change that TODAY!!  I would not have had the courage to drop the rope without all of your time invested in engaging and encouragement and there are truly not enough THANKS ever for that!!
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« Last Edit: October 18, 2021, 08:37:22 AM by Tornup »
H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

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#142: October 18, 2021, 08:57:03 AM
Quote
The mind F**ery just keeps messing with me.
.

It is a frequent visitor to me as well my friend , I understand ..trust me . I feel a need to apologize for what sounded harsh . I am not in anyway free of struggle . We have spent time in the exact same boat.
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Married April 1985
5 children
Bomb Drop April 2013
Thrown out of house August 2013
Affair discovered November 2013 (i guessed who)
Home December 3 2013
The Journey Of Reconciliation .. is for the brave .

Anger is like a candle in the wind ... it blows out the light of all reason.

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Stopping the insanity
#143: October 18, 2021, 09:35:24 AM
Barbie- No, you could no have been more on point. I have told myself that,but then he gets in my head and I lose my self control. That is why all communication has to stop. It’s not his fault at this point. It is mine and mine alone!
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H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

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Stopping the insanity
#144: October 18, 2021, 11:31:58 AM
Tornup, so much great discussion on your threads. I think one of the things I struggled with the most was that I didn’t see a recognizable Monster in W’s actions. To the contrary… she told me she didn’t doubt my love for her, she thought I deserved someone who loved me as much as I loved her. Every kind word, every little extra moment of her time, every piece of evidence that I was in her thoughts - all of it gave me hope, and early on it even gave me expectations. Wallowers are difficult in a very different way than the typical crazy-spending, mean, destructive monsters. It’s harder to set firm boundaries when their pain is so overt. And I have been very lucky to be spared a whole lot of back-and-forth; plus, the “OW” in my case was probably one of the kindest and most genuine people who ever ended up in that role (it’s complicated). Also, we don’t have kids so the need for ongoing communication in some form wasn’t really there in our case.

So I’m not comparing our situations, but acknowledging that the pathway to detachment and healing is often even more convoluted when “monster” isn’t overtly mean. He’s still been disrespectful of your feelings and of the commitment you made to each other. He’s still taking advantage of your kind and generous nature. The fact that he’s doing it to ease his own pain, rather than trying to cause you pain… that’s irrelevant. It’s still inherently him taking advantage of you (or trying to).

One of the other things that makes the recovery process harder and more convoluted is when the LBS has a trauma history - which, I guess we all do because BD is trauma. But the loss of your D14 is certainly trauma, and I don’t know if there are others. So… forgive yourself if you backslide, be generous with yourself when you develop some hope. It’s not easy but you’re strong and you will get there.
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Stopping the insanity
#145: October 18, 2021, 12:10:13 PM
Curiosity- yes, I think my back ground history definitely plays a part. The fact we lost a daughter together which started his depression. There could have been kinder ways to leave. I have survived 2 house fires, home invasion rape ( rapist went to prison for 7 years and knows who I am and now is out in about in society), I have reoccurrent thyroid cancer, lost both parents to cancer and also a terribly volition divorce, sister had a child who she gave up for adoption, brother had a child from a one night stand that we never knew until she turned 10 and her mother found me in a phone book and sent a letter to disclose. Reconnected with that child at 30 and was on the phone when she recieved a call her daughter had been killed in a motorcycle accident at the same age as my daughter and with in days of the anniversary of my daughters death. My brother had a history of drug and alcohol issues after parents divorce and spent 4 years in prison . I have been the sane one. The stable one.

 Things keep happening around me that affect me, but that I did not cause. I am always the one to have to fix it, deal with it or make sure everyone else is ok. The last person I thought after our own daughters death would not only hurt me, but continue to hurt his own children has been the hardest thing to accept. I could have never imagined this would or could happen, but for the closest person to know my history and not be more compassionate has been by far what keeps me stuck.

With all that… I married. My husband was an hourly employee and I was in management. We worked as a team to get him where he is. We took every promotion and move offered with 3 kids in tow. We made an extremely good life. Giving back to the community as well. We are well respected. He threw it all away and I have no say that he changed our perception now in our community. Causing more tragedy for his own children.

So, yes… I have a lot of tragedy in my history. Never of my making. I still have people tell me that they don’t know how I keep getting hit with things and keep going. I have not lost respect of my community, but I know people think poor her. She has been through so much. I hate how he changed our entire lives and has not once cared how it is affecting us. That is why I know it is MLC but as we all know here telling or explaining that to people would never fly. MLC needs more validation in our society. Talk about with more respect than the sports car, younger woman and hair plugs. There is still a cheap laughter/ joke when it comes to MLC.
It’s real. More Drs need to recognize it and start treating it or finding a way to treat it or at the very least validate it and it’s affects it has on those who love them. It’s a tragedy that it is the silent killer of families.
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H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

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Re: Stopping the insanity
#146: October 18, 2021, 04:04:27 PM
Turnup I have said this for years.

To case study a midlife crisis there needs to be subjects to participate in these studies.
How many people, in a crisis, do you really think will admit they have a problem and volunteer?

All we can do is rely on sites like this where we can see similar stories from all over the world who experience the exact same thing.

I have no idea how the medical professionals will ever eccept this as something real that just happens to some people....and even IF they did how would they find a way to cure it or a way to treat it?
Counseling or therapy does no good.

The only thing these professional may understand is an Identity Crisis.
But I personally think it is so much more than that.
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« Last Edit: October 18, 2021, 04:06:45 PM by Thunder »
A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

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Stopping the insanity
#147: October 18, 2021, 05:15:09 PM
Yea, I know my therapist thinks of it as depression and identity / trauma crisis. MLC has so many layers. It would take someone to talk to recovery stories like stayed and her husband. Someone who was on sites like these and reached out to couples. Even a start on looking into this and giving it some validity. It’s like the hidden illness that your ashamed to have or be a victim of.
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H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

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Stopping the insanity
#148: October 18, 2021, 05:35:34 PM
Just curious, what would be the difference if your therapist called it depression/identity crisis versus MLC? Either way, the only way out of it is if he does the work to heal, and it's the same work, regardless of the name given to the diagnosis. 
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T
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Stopping the insanity
#149: October 18, 2021, 06:03:47 PM
Nas- I never asked. When I was calling therapists I asked if they “believed” in MLC. She said I don't call it MLC, but I do agree that men and women can go through trauma and identity crisis. I refer to MLC almost every session and she engages always on it with no correction. Maybe because they are not trained as MLC but just crisis??  And… yes. They have to do the work. tomatoe / tomato in the end, right?
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« Last Edit: October 18, 2021, 06:05:07 PM by Tornup »
H-54 W-58  M 7/6/91 Kids d-30 s-28 d-14 (dies 2009)
2013- moments of disconnect start
Aug 2016 promotion requires travel   
Oct 2017-total disconnect
Jan 2018- moved out H
Mar 2018- BD1 found old phone 3 EA ‘17-H in therapy
EA ow1-49,  EA-ow2 57, (EA- ow3-58 not reciprocated)
Sept ‘18 -2nd Home in new state H new job
Oct 2018-H moves home
Oct 2020 BD2 does not return home from B trip
Nov 2020 H move to 2nd home in other state OW4
Div filed-Dec ‘20   Div final-Feb ‘21
Oct 2021- XH moves in OW4
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11796.

m
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Re: Stopping the insanity
#150: October 18, 2021, 07:05:49 PM
Yea, I know my therapist thinks of it as depression and identity / trauma crisis. MLC has so many layers. It would take someone to talk to recovery stories like stayed and her husband. Someone who was on sites like these and reached out to couples. Even a start on looking into this and giving it some validity. It’s like the hidden illness that your ashamed to have or be a victim of.

FWIW the therapists I have talked to in various contexts who are aware of the phenomenon completely "get it" but talk about it in terms of the underlying elements and various different psychological dynamics (like disassociation, anxiety, depression). It doesn't mean its not "known" rather its not talked about in colloquial terms that we do here.
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No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

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Re: Stopping the insanity
#151: October 18, 2021, 08:48:35 PM
Time for a new thread, Torn.   :)

Next Thread is here: https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11846
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« Last Edit: October 19, 2021, 12:52:19 AM by UrsaMajor »
A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

 

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