[Treasur]

And he did send another email yesterday apologizing again and asking if I wanted to meet for dinner. I said yes and send him my available days and zero response.....what the heck......why ask and then zone out.............dangit....I will NEVER NEVER NEVER understand it and I know...just stop trying, but when can we treat them like normal people again......arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

I would suggest it is a pattern. Just like Lucy removing the ball when Charlie goes to kick it 
And, as xyzcf says, you have a few choices. Accept the pattern of words and no action so change your expectations; say yes if you want to but expect nothing other than being pleasantly surprised if he follows through. Do nothing and if he initiates contact again, be a bit matter of fact blunt that you’re not sure you can be bothered to agree to anything until/unless he can show you that he will actually follow through. Or decide to stop playing, pick up your ball, ignore him and go play with other people.

Or the other option I forgot to add of looping around the same pattern.....

I hope you can see - or are starting to see - that this sounds much the same pattern as the last Jan date he ‘forgot’? Please understand that I don’t say this to criticise or judge you, only to support the work you are already doing with your IC. Sometimes the universe whispers, sometimes it sends little notes, sometimes it keeps clonking us on the head until we get it lol.....and we get it when we are ready to change the patterns and usually not a moment before imho 

Do you want to break the pattern, do you think? What is the pattern YOU see? And what do you think you gain from playing your part in this pattern as it is? (Question for your reflection, no need to answer here  ) bc usually, we human creatures have reasons for doing what we do repeatedly even if they are a bit squirmy or messy?

And, given all of that, how do you think you might view this March arrangement differently that could chip away at the pattern in a way that feels right for you?

[beyondblessed]

Schratz, cycles are the essiest thing in the world to repeat, which unfortunately is also why things never change.  The cycle is what you know and also what is most comfortable for you.  It's the path of least resistance.  Comfort zones do not yield growth, nor your case will it promote the healing you say you want.  If you truly want to break the cycle, you need to start employing a different approach.

[xyzcf]

Is it normal that good or bad exchanges just get those monkeys stirred up ? I am sure I am overthinking it way too much and I am hoping to simmer back down by this evening......

For some of us, especially those of us whose marriages were happy ones, there are connections that will always be there. That is true really of any relationships that we have had in life...those connections do not disappear because we tell them to.

So "normal" is really how his contact affects you. I have found that I learned to not be so rattled by his contact, even to the point of being able to spend time with him and quite enjoy that time, enjoy the family time especially....and this has come about because of my choice to let him be part of our family.

I do believe he will continue to contact you. You come to HS to write about these contacts and how they affect you. You are very aware that you would like to feel more at peace. The thing I found most helpful was being able to express how I felt to supportive people..I did not find helpful being told that I must change my "patterns" by others who are not walking on my pathway.

From what I read, you still love your husband and as I have said, love is a complicated thing. You know the whole concept of the lighthouse...perhaps he reaches out to you in some type of need of his, something he cannot explain, but something he knows that you are there for him.

It's a very confusing thing for the MLCer, to have these opposite feelings about us...just as it is confusing to us when they contact us and tell us things and then disappear.....

You can't really control the times he reaches out to you..well I guess you could if you never look at his text messages or respond back...but either way you will still know that he contacted you.

Processing by coming here, thinking how you can shift your reaction so it doesn't cause you pain  are helpful...being told over and over again that your reactions "do not yield growth", I find really disturbing from a community that should feel safe and supportive.

You will get their Schartz, think back to a couple of years ago, you have grown through this mess, we all do in our own time. You are engaged in therapy, you have stopped your binge eating, you are addressing your own FOO issues..I say BRAVO!

[KayDee]

Sensitive to what XYZ has said, I hope my observations aren't received as unsupportive, but ---- your H sounds rather full of self-pity (and you sound great, btw). What I read  from him via your last post is - I can't meet up because I am so 'overwhelmed', but don't worry about me if you want to move on, I'll just drink/worry myself to death. Reminds me a bit of the trope scene in films where a group of people are traveling through hard terrain, like a jungle, or a mountainscape, and one person becomes stricken and is unable to continue. Lying there, against a tree/rock they say 'you go  on without me! I will only slow you down'. Of course, they don't want to be left, and neither does your H. But it doesn't sound like he's healed himself yet, IMO - he's not taking any responsibility for himself at all.

I am new to all this, but I do get the monkey brain thing. For me it's because there's so much contradiction, and lots of dramatic words that don't seem to add up to any sort of action or change (I see this on the forum, as well as in my own sitch). It's hard to know what to think and that sets off the hamster in the wheel (to mix up our animal metaphors). A practical suggestion about the next date, if you decide to grant him an audience   is that you could perhaps pick somewhere you would like to go anyway, like an afternoon matinee for a film you want to see, or a theatre performance (you get the idea!) and if he shows up, great, you will have this shared activity to discuss and make new memories from. And if not, well you get to do something nice and not waste the day.

[Schratz66]

Treasure….I always appreciate your views and input and never look at it as criticism or being judged. It is what makes this forum so valuable to me… it is important to me to get non involved, intelligent and caring people to tell me how they see things that I would not necessarily see myself. So I appreciate all of your comments and always have.

The pattern I see is him continuously reaching out for whatever reasons and me always responding and thus verifying that I am still here and still connected. He then is content and muddles through while all my flying monkeys get released……I know the universe has been trying to teach me to just let things happen and unfold naturally ….but the child that grew up in Chaos and only survived by reading every emotion and intent in others does not have faith that she will be able to handle any situation that occurs. So she still tries to figure out the whys and the what ifs …it gives her a false sense of control and thus false safety.

What do I gain from following his patterns……..I gain hope…..false hope? Probably…..but that hope is truly the only thing that still gets me up in the mornings

Beyond….thank you for your view…..and yes, I agree that unhealthy cycles should be broken…I am not sure though that I agree that his cycles are comfortable to me……I do want to heal and I think a lot of healing is from childhood wounds that will just take time to overcome.  May I ask what approach you would take that is different ? I am always open to suggestions.

XY….thank you for your support. This forum and being able to process all these complicated feelings in writing has truly been such a blessing. Have I came along much….I think so……you are right……if I do look back I have at least reached a point now where I know these issues are mine to work on and that is my expectations and my reactions to contact that causes me pain and not the contact itself. I agree….love is complicated …. If it is true love…..because I want him to be happy…..and he just is not happy at this point….he has not realized that the reason for happiness lies within him….he still blames outside sources i.e. work, property, etc as the cause of his stress and unhappiness. I am not sure he will ever be able to look inward as long as he uses alcohol as his tool to handle life. In his own words….HE DOESN’T KNOW $h!teE ABOUT $h!teE WHAT IS GOING ON IN HIS HEAD OR HEART   

Kay – thank you and you are right…it is all about him and his situation…..and it is self pity and no he has not healed himself at all yet. I do like your suggestion to take myself on that date if he is a no show.

[xyzcf]

I know the universe has been trying to teach me to just let things happen and unfold naturally ….but the child that grew up in Chaos and only survived by reading every emotion and intent in others does not have faith that she will be able to handle any situation that occurs.

Trauma does that to us. Our world that we loved was shattered and yours perhaps more than once by the chaos in your childhood. We then switch onto "high alert" and things take on a much bigger meaning then they should perhaps.

I may have mentioned this before, the amygdala, the reptilian part of the brain that recognizes danger doesn't distinguish between the severity of the danger....so a lion with it's mouth open ready to bite you elicits the same response as your partner eating his dinner with his mouth open.....there are so many things I imagine when my husband contacts me or I hear something about him....most of the time they are not real or true. The monkey brain thinking is a typical response. So learning how to still the mind can be really helpful.

Often contact catches me off guard, so it is practice for me to take a deep breath, release all the tension I start to feel in my body and be still...also understanding that even with the best of my analysis, I don't really know what he's thinking. And then, the hard part perhaps, letting it go. As you said "allow the universe to just let things happen and unfold naturally ".

You are doing a lot of introspective thinking....like you, at some point I was "stuck" and our bodies and minds do not want to stay stuck forever. The insight you are gaining in the work you are doing is moving you forward, both from your past childhood and the destruction of your marriage.

What do I gain from following his patterns……..I gain hope…..false hope? Probably…..but that hope is truly the only thing that still gets me up in the mornings

This struck me. I had to feel alive again, I had to find meaning and purpose without being a part of "US". It's not perfect and often I have "dreams" at night and I never wake up without thinking about him. I don't have any control over my dreams or my subconscious. I can only recognize that grief and loss have no timetable and then I am grateful for what is.

I smile at things I never would have noticed before. I am awed by people's kindness. I see beauty around me but am also very affected by the state of the world...perhaps it is my age......I have "learned" that I am not the one in control. Yes, we have control over some aspects of life but I am a fool to think that I can forecast what shall be in the future.

So the hope that I hold onto is important to me. It can be a part of your being without being destructive. It can also be a thing of beauty....because your husband, in his mess which is none of your doing, feels drawn to reach out to you...and some would say he doesn't deserve it, that it harms you, that you should not respond to him but that is not who you are.

So you figure out, who am I and how do I wish to live my life? When you know this, when you decide what is right for you concerning contact with him, you may find that you set yourself free from the responses that send you swirling. We get there in different ways.

The universe does respond...and send us thoughts and messages...and after reading your message and contemplating how does one reach a place of peace in all this, this poem came onto my facebook feed..and I smiled because it sums up for me how I decided to live with the love I still feel for this man. It's different for all of us, but this is truly how I live in peace.

A New Way To Love


The Ego said:

I don’t like this one. I don’t like that one. This one hurt me. This one betrayed me. This one took from me and never gave back. But I don’t want to hate them, as hatred suffocates me after a while. What do I do?

The soul replied:

Then find a new way to love them. Love them from afar. Love them by wishing them well. Love them by understanding it is the weakness of their soul. Love them by understanding it is their pain and fear. Love them where they are. And love them by asking for God’s love, strength and wisdom to reach their soul.

Ricka Rana

[Reinventing]

Not necessarily related to MLC, but when I'm around a toxic person I wish them well, well away from me.

That helps me put a positive spin on it while also acknowledging that it's not the type of person I would prefer or choose to interact with.

[Treasur]

The pattern I see is him continuously reaching out for whatever reasons and me always responding and thus verifying that I am still here and still connected. He then is content and muddles through while all my flying monkeys get released……I know the universe has been trying to teach me to just let things happen and unfold naturally ….but the child that grew up in Chaos and only survived by reading every emotion and intent in others does not have faith that she will be able to handle any situation that occurs. So she still tries to figure out the whys and the what ifs …it gives her a false sense of control and thus false safety.

What do I gain from following his patterns……..I gain hope…..false hope? Probably…..but that hope is truly the only thing that still gets me up in the mornings

Well, that sounds like a pretty solid bit of self-reflection, my friend. Lots of work in progress going on in your noggin and with your IC. Do be kind to yourself though....insight is necessary but not sufficient to adapt some of our hard-wired stuff or trauma residue stuff imho....that’s more of a step by step, trial and error kind of game when we are ready to unpick bits. And it’s not easy so we fall over, get up, fall over. Which can make us a bit vulnerable to beating ourselves up for not having ‘escaped with one mighty bound’ lol. But it’s just not how this stuff works, is it? I found it helpful to think of myself as doing invisible brain surgery lol, trying out creating new feedback loops for my poor little amygdala to chew on....much easier to respect that this sounds like it might take some time and involve some ups and downs 

Both as a coach, and as an LBS, I learned that each of us can only start from where we are. Which is why our own assessment of where we are, and the language we use with ourselves about it, matters. But of course, that assessment doesn’t always look so pretty, does it? And our brains naturally can try to pull us back into the past or forward into trying to game out an unknown future. Which is even more unknown if it is contingent on the mysteries of someone else’s head  I found/find it helpful to downsize my efforts to the day sometimes....to keep asking myself how I am investing today in the kind of future I want for myself. And what choices I have in the day.

I’m not going to get drawn into some of xyzcf’s obviously heartfelt perspective on how MLCers think or love or lighthouses or connection bc each of us reaches our own conclusions on how to live that stuff out imho. Or hope bc tbh I think that evolves and the focus moves around and is different for different people too. I’m just going to focus on the pattern bc you say you don’t find how it makes you feel helpful right now. (And if my memory serves, I think you posted something years back about seeing some kind of pop up, go quiet for a few months pattern with him, so it’s not new and you’re.not imagining it  ) i’m pretty confident that xyzcf is right when she says that him doing this meets some need in him and that, all other things being equal, he will probably carry on doing it. (I think of your h as the Tomato Man - was it him that left tomatoes on your desk at work.) And that you are not responsible for that or in control of it. (Can’t recall if you are legally divorced, forgive me, or if there are still practical outstanding links between you?)

So, let’s assume that he is going to carry on with the same pattern of pop up and disappear for a few months, with a side order of drunken self pity, bc it meets some need in him. And remind ourselves that this is a) not about you, but him and b) that just bc someone needs something from us does not mean we have an obligation to provide it and c) it’s not really love, not grown up healthy reciprocal love as such imho, but some kind of need/attachment porridge which we can have compassion for but still not need to meet if that makes sense.

But let’s assume for the moment that he is going to carry on doing that for his own reasons. And let’s assume that, just as xyzcf says, some of your own feelings don’t magically disappear just bc/if you tell them to. Even if you wag your finger at them lol. That does not mean you are out of choices in HOW you play with the pattern even if you are not ready or willing to step away from it entirely. I get the sense - but could be wrong? - that what bothers you most is that an arrangement is made, it kicks off an extended period of monkey braining and hopeful expectation in you that you don’t like, followed by a period of kicking yourself and a bit of frustrated despair when that’s not how it goes? Is that it? If so, looking at it in smaller chunks with your IC might help you consider some of the bits that ARE more in your control....the length of time between a and b for instance, or how to adapt your expectations slightly or how to adapt how much you control. I really liked KayDee’s suggestion about setting a different context...a ‘i’m going to be here doing an enjoyable x thing, you can join me or not as you wish’. I also wondered if the timescale could be more in your control eg less of a ‘you call me in March’ and more of a ‘i’ll call you in March to see if we can sort something out’ thing. Would that make it easier to put the monkeys down for a couple of months, idk? But these kinds of experiments are easier imho to do with professional support until we get the hang of it and they feel smaller and more do-able for us......you sound as if you have done well in working with your IC so far and you should pat yourself on the back for that alone  .....and it’s a good resource to help you experiment imho. Plus the more you see it as an experiment, the less it will probably feel like some pass/fail type situation everytime it happens.

One of the great gifts of following along with other’s stories here over time is seeing the progress folks make and how they evolve out of the worst dark days. Maybe it is sometimes easier to see that progress in others than feel it in ourselves......but we do see your progress, my friend, and we are all cheering you on for every single bit of it.

[Schratz66]

Once again - great input and plenty of food for thought for me to work through.
As always - these comments truly help me so much in examining and learning and evaluating my own thoughts and patterns on my way to healing.

Before replying and pondering...I watched a video yesterday where a therapist said to find your true self...close your eyes and put all your labels i.e. your name, age, anything you believe in your hands and then whatever is left that is your true self...which should be nothing but self love, kindness, and joy just like a newborn baby without any beliefs filtered into it yet.
Of course some times I am very reserved at what works that just sounds too simple....lol....I tried this exercise and it actually felt immensely calming...to just close your eyes and just be you...anyway - I just thought I'd share.

XY:

So the hope that I hold onto is important to me. It can be a part of your being without being destructive.

That is so beautifully said......and that is something I am hoping to work on. I cannot let go of hope but maybe I can reframe this hope into existing but not being destructive and not attaching expectations. You are right, he might not deserve me to respond and it might harm me to respond, but....to not respond would be against who I am and who I want to be. No, I do not always respond if there is no response necessary but I have always been there for him (and he has always responded to me) and I do want him to see me as a safe place regardless of what may or may not be down the road.

So you figure out, who am I and how do I wish to live my life?

That is what I told my therapist my goal is. To figure out who I am after we take away all the trauma and how I wish to live my life.

I did tell her that before each session I contemplate just leaving...getting back in my car and just going home rather than delving into difficult questions and answers.....but.....I feel that this is a time in my life where I must repair my Self to find self love for the remainder of my years.

Then find a new way to love them. Love them from afar. Love them by wishing them well. Love them by understanding it is the weakness of their soul. Love them by understanding it is their pain and fear.

I cannot tell you how many times I have read those lines and they are beautiful and peaceful and amazing....thank you so much for sharing that poem.

Reinvent:
Thank you for suggestion of wishing them well away......I thought about that, and with most people I do not let toxic people ruining my peace, but I never viewed my MLC as toxic per se. I view him as a broken hurt child that is just lost ....and while I might not be able to influence this child into repairing itself, I can be there and of comfort to the child. It might be counterproductive for my own healing, but it is important to me personally to be there for the people I love and I will always love him in some way, shape or form.

Treasure......
Wow....so much to think through and figure out.

the language we use with ourselves about it, matters

Since you mentioned that in a previous response I have been vigilant almost in which words I use to myself and you are right that I have not been kind when speaking of myself...I must remember that I might be speaking to that inner child and I would never use words like failure, pathetic, etc to her....thank you for that reminder.....and something that I need to keep working on.

how I am investing today in the kind of future I want for myself. And what choices I have in the day.

Another brilliant phrase and one that I am also trying to work on (no wonder all this 'work' has me exhausted...lol) - when I get into these monkeys or spirals throughout the day I stop and ask....ok....is there something =you can do about it...if the answer is no...let it go...if the answer is yes...what can I do about it today.

I think of your h as the Tomato Man - was it him that left tomatoes on your desk at work

That made me truly laugh out loud...I forgot about that, but yes, that was him......Tomato Man.....

that what bothers you most is that an arrangement is made, it kicks off an extended period of monkey braining and hopeful expectation in you that you don’t like, followed by a period of kicking yourself and a bit of frustrated despair when that’s not how it goes? Is that it?

...amazing how you can put it in a nutshell but that is exactly how it is.....I realize I have the choice to not engage in his contacts and I realize it is an attachment issue that he feels and that I am not responsible for, but again....to not respond would not be me...what bothers me is that my monkeys immediatly drink the hope drug and start seeing butterflies and unicorns and then come crashing down like drunk elephants when reality does not work out that way.  I had talked about it with my IC and she says..it is that pattern that I was used to in my childhood....the high and the low and the always thinking of ways to gain parental acceptance and love and then not achieving it.....and starting from scratch again.....so, it is on the horizon to work through but can take some time

For now, he has given me date, time and place for dinner in March and I am reigning in all these monkeys and keep telling myself that until then I must not think about it but use this time to work on me. So, every time he pops in my head, I say....Stop....Focus on you for 6 weeks ......

The last email about the March date he ended with "Kisses"......in 5 1/2 years he never said that and chances are he was already drunk when he wrote it, but it is new...

To take my mind off I have plans to spend a girls weekend with D the middle of the month and already have a Spa day layed out for us to enjoy and get pampered. Any time I get to spend with D boosts my mood and we always have such a great time. I am also planning a weekend to see my best friend in another state that I have not seen in years and we need to catch up in person. Plus with spring coming I will be able to spend time outdoors again and watching nature always feels so grounding to me. Looking forward to that.

Thank you again for all the wonderful thoughts and reflections you always deliver that help me so much. I do appreciate and value you more than I can put into words.

[Treasur]

My goodness me, you are doing so well. It is hard work though, isn’t it, so glad you have some things planned that top up your reservoir. Thank you for sharing the labels exercise - I shall try that next time I need it!