[freefall2flight]

Hi All,

So, as the subject suggests, life has gotten pretty tough recently…..

Together: 16 years (Married 11 years)
Children x 2: D6 D3
BD: 7th Jan 23 (During a petty argument about cleaning our bookshelf my wife exclaimed “I am done!”)
BD part 2: Moved into our converted garage 24th Feb 23

I tend to waffle so I will ‘try’ my best to be concise….


Early History

Got together W:16 M:21
I suffered from anxiety & depression
Wife came from a broken home of divorce (Wife aged 7) and step parents (my upbringing was stable)
Both families disapproved of our relationship however I received verbal abuse and threats from her Dad
Wife moved in with me after 10 months
My wife did not speak to her Dad for 7 years and he did not attend our wedding.  My wife maintains she would have reconciled with her Dad sooner however her Mum and Stepdad ‘poisoned her’ against her Dad.
My wife, Dad and I have an amazing relationship now for the last 9 years.  He was very apologetic to me which I told him not to be as I would likely have acted with the same level of disapproval.


Mental Health

Over the years we have both suffered anxiety & depression at different times
Last time I was medicated was 2013
In 2015, due to past recreational drug use I was denied life insurance.  This triggered depression and anxiety as I felt I had failed my wife and my future family.  I had more counselling and felt better as I was given alternatives (self insurance). We went on a big holiday (our last together abroad) in December and we decided to try for a baby.
My wife was first medicated in Jan 2022 (she claims that I stopped her from getting medicated in the past.  However this is not really true, having been medicated myself in the past I encouraged her to try exercise and socialising first to help her as I had experienced difficult side effects from the SSRIs.  I had been trying to encourage her on these fronts for years.  I told her I was proud of her since she went to the Doctors off her own back.  Since BD I had (wrong I understand now) insisted she was depressed and although she is still medicated she denies it.  I said I was happy that she was enjoying socialising (basically partying every other week with her work colleagues) and going to the gym (a gym I helped her sign up for and partly fund due to her not being able to afford it - I did and do this as I thought it was helping her).  She said she didn’t want to do it in the past because I suggested it but she is doing it now because it’s her choice!?!
In Oct 2022 my wife also told me she thought she has ADHD which I initially reacted poorly to and said we could fix things.  Once she told me how angry this made her. I threw myself into helping her and reading everything I could and I came to agree with her.  She has since seen a Psychologist who after consultation, prior to the final diagnosis has stated that in her clinical opinion it is likely my wife has ADHD.


Relationship issues

Our difficulties got worse after our first child in 2017.  It was a very stressful pregnancy and my wife had many complications with a risk of fatality due to bleeding out.  I was lucky enough to attend every appointment as I was so worried.
My wife began to withdraw from that point, albeit slowly.
We appear to have a very codependent relationship which I believe I have enabled over the years with me being the main cook, cleaner, organiser, planner and the one responsible for finances.  Although I have expressed burnout over the years and tried to encourage her getting involved she never did.  This led to me feeling overburdened and at times fostered resentment in me.  However since the revelation of ADHD, this fits and I feel bad and guilty about the way I handled things.  Although I have read in ADHD forums, undiagnosed ADHD can play havoc in a marriage and a parent-child dynamic is common.
I became hyper-organised and frugal to counter the situation, in my mind preparing for a future.  My idea being we could pay off the house and within 5 years and save for our children’s and our future.  My wife disagreed with this as she said she never had anything growing up and so our children would be OK. 
I am an affectionate person and so my wife withdrawing was difficult and I was always open and honest that it made me feel lonely and unloved and I asked her how I could make sure she felt loved.
The common theme around this is our communication lines were never open.  I was always happy to talk about alternatives but my wife only expressed disagreement but when asked what she would like instead always replied with “I don’t know.”
My wife basically completely gave up in October 2022 however there was no bomb drop then so I just picked up the slack for Christmas and our D birthday in Jan


(2023) This year and Bomb Drop

After an argument in January 2023 about where to put some items from a bookcase during spring cleaning my wife told me she was done. 
At this point I gave her some space and took our girls away for the day to a play park.  I bumped into my wife’s best friend and told her what had happened.  I said she thought she had ADHD and I thought she was depressed.
She said she felt my wife and her had drifted as my wife had withdrawn from her but she would try and reach out. 
I started to arrange couples therapy and my wife arranged individual therapy. 
I shared my ADHD research with my wife and tried to help her. 
We changed couples therapists on my suggestion as I felt an ADHD specialist may help. 
My wife said to the therapist she felt nothing would change and she didn’t feel the same about me any more and that it was a hard decision to come to leave.
My wife also went out again and was so ill I had to get a friend to come over at 3am to look after our children so I could pick her up.
We took our children away for the night and went to a water park and hotel on Thursday 23rd Feb.  My wife was withdrawn and said she had to go work on our holiday which made me angry (not at her but for her) and our kids were sad.
I confronted her and said I thought we should talk on her return.  It was that night she calmly reiterated that she was done.  She could not give me a reason.  When pushed she said I was over organised and obsessive (on reflect this is true and a consequence of my letting my anxiety take over my life). 
That night she moved into our garage conversion (basically a studio apartment) in our backyard.


Post Bomb Drop
The next few days I spiralled and acted out of fear and panic. I cried in front of our children (although they believed I had chilli in my eyes).
My eldest daughter (6yo) did notice her Mummy was gone and got emotional.  She told me she was hearing voices and kept crying for her Mummy. 
I am ashamed to say I contacted my Wife’s best friend (the sensible one) and told her thought my wife was depressed and sent a video of our daughter crying.
 I also replied to her brother as my wife stayed with him.  He was kind and offered support and I again told her I thought she was depressed.  I regret both of these things as I understand this was me trying to control the situation unfairly although I felt I was acting to help her.
This obviously made my wife angry and I acknowledged to her and our therapist that I felt I was wrong and acted out of panic since my wife was also stonewalling me.
In therapy we agreed to keep our usual routine for the girls sake and my wife would remain sleeping in the garage.  This has worked to some extent however my wife is still withdrawn.
In our last two couples therapy sessions I took ownership for my contribution to our issues as working with a therapist at work I have identified how I have not processed my depression and anxiety, especially around life insurance which has caused me to not listen properly to my wife and become obsessed about saving in case I die. 
I have already made steps to resolve this by applying for life insurance and beginning to work on my appearance (I have not bought clothes for 8 years), opening up our money to us both and conversations about how we spend our money for the future (releasing the reins so to speak).  This has been liberating.
Unfortunately my wife in the last session refuses to talk about any reasons even though I have acknowledged that I know I have hurt her and would like her to open up about the ways I have done this so I may understand where I can improve in the future. 
She has told me she ‘thinks’ she may no longer feel the same for me, she ‘thinks’ she no longer wants to sex with me (we last has sex on 18th February 2023, I made an effort to make it all about her after giving her a long massage) and she thinks that feelings can never change. 
She wanted to talk about the practical steps of separating so when I agreed to discuss what her vision of the future was she said she didn’t know and explained to the therapist that since I do all the bills and manage all the major decisions in life she doesn't not know where to start. 
This is frustrating as part of my issue in the relationship was that I was overwhelmed with taking on so much on and felt unloved through us becoming distant and not receiving help when I asked for it. 
We are no longer in couples therapy however I remained in IC.  She did not.


Why I believe my wife is in MLC

Spending much more time at work
Going out much more and coming home drunk and vomiting
Dyed her hair
Packages and packages of new clothes
Withdrawing from the children
Turning her back on any responsibility to the house and family
Her ‘room’ in our garage conversation is like a 17 year olds room
Lying about her whereabouts
Lying about things she has done or going to do (or not done)
Withdrawing from her ‘good’ friends and family, exchanging them for a lonely woman 10 years older than her whose husband works away and kids have flown the nest.  This is her drinking partner who has lied for my wife a number of times (e.g my wife stayed in a hotel when she told me she was at her friends - her friend backed this up until I confronted the friend who then cried)
Posting in a manner on social media that she hates (she always hated her Mum doing that)
Acting in a manner which her Mum did she she was separated before divorce, again which my wife hated
Complete personality change and venom towards me as well as snapping and being cold with our children (not to mention a complete loss of manners!  No please or thank yous for any of us most of the time, something which my wife used to value in high regard)
Saying she wants to leave but can give no reason or plan for the future
Cycling between high energy party girl to low energy locking herself in her ‘room’ for days on end
As far as I am aware she has only told 4 people, her friend (who is also her employee) above, another colleague who is having marital issues and an affair and then her brother who is himself in a depression.  She begrudgingly told her original best friend but resisted as apparently she is ‘too sensible’


Possible Triggers

Her Mum moving away suddenly to the other side of the country with her ‘new family’ the week our first child was born (2017)
Her original best friend died suddenly in April 2022 - they grew apart following my wife getting together.  My wife had not spoken to her for about 13 years.
My vasectomy in Oct 2022.  I tried to discuss this topic for about 2 years but my wife refused to speak about it as he said it made her sad.
Her sister became a single Mum in Nov 2022 (her partner has never really been around or a good influence to her sister)

My actions

Aside from my crazy behaviour in the 7 days post BD, I have really tried to reflect.
I have acknowledged what I feel are my contributions to our marriage difficulties both in couples therapy and in an apology letter.  I tried really hard to give no explanations (such as me feeling overburdened and in the throes of anxiety) and instead aimed to validate her feelings. It is all very tricky as she does not open up at all
I have become more present for my children.  I have always been there physically but not always in mind and soul as I have been worried with task management and what I need to do next.  My phone is now in another room with notifications turned off.
I have been working on anxiety through therapy, books and podcasts
I have been working on my health and am running and going to the gym again
I am reconnecting with friends
I am basically GAL
I ask my W no questions but answer cordially when she engages me
I am trying to take a step back where possible to wean that dependence, for me emotionally and for my W practically
I am giving her all the space she asks for
I have started to explore spirituality, no something I am familiar with as it was not really part of my upbringing


My stance
At this moment in time I am standing.  I reflect on my vows and good days, bad days, rich and poor, sickness and health til death do us part, covers every eventuality.  By walking away now I would not be honouring these and then what was the point in getting married?
I feel I am a good husband (she actually said this in therapy!) and father (again, she said this in therapy!)  however I am not perfect and am under no illusion, I have contributed to our issues.  However I feel nothing at present is insurmountable, although this is difficult to assess without any real meaningful conversation.

What I have learnt from these boards is my W needs TIME.

Bracing myself as I feel the tide rushing in from the incoming storm.

Thank you for reading and apologies, it was not as concise as I had hoped!
-freefall

[Treasur]

Dear lost - please don’t worry about conciseness, that was a lot to summarise and some of us here (waves hand) are more wordy than others.

Well done on taking the first step in posting which can feel a bit daunting. There are some kind wise folks here, with a range of perspectives, who have walked in similar painful shoes. People will try to support you the best they can; you can decide, through trial and error, what works for you and what doesn’t.

Three things struck me from your post.

The first is that you are in a kind of uncertain limbo. Your wife has announced that she is ‘done’ and is talking about separation but, other than moving into the annex, is not presenting you with any kind of concrete plan or proposal. As you have a history of anxiety and depression, that uncertainty makes it even more important to dig deep on taking care of your own physical and mental wellbeing, so well done on getting an IC for yourself.

The second is that, from your POV, you have a pattern of over functioning in your marriage and your wife a history of underfunctioning with the adult stuff of life. Is that true as parents? Is that true in work life or life outside the home? That dynamic is not unusual here....and you are right that it can foster some inadvertently unhealthy patterns like control and codependency and avoidance of accountability. Your IC will doubtless help you reflect on what you get from being an overfunctioner lol. My best advice is that you start asking yourself some very practical questions about what belongs on your side of the street and what does not, what you can control directly and what you cannot. And to figure out how to set healthy boundaries about how you want to function that are not about trying to punish or control or fix anyone else. Imho changing those overfunction/under function patterns usually needs some work on boundaries and, bc patterns exist bc both folks get something from them, the other person tends not to react too well when you change your own behaviour. (Hint....other people’s thoughts, feelings, actions and POV is usually not in our hands....but we have choices for our own and how we respond to events.  )

The third is that I would encourage you to ease away from labels like depression or even MLC. You may well be right....but, if your wife is for instance depressed or has ADHD, the label won’t help you change that. Just as she can’t fix your own issues with anxiety. It is likely to be much more constructive to focus on your own labels and leave her to figure out her own for herself. Plus, at the moment, labelling her is much more likely to suck you into any existing pattern of codependency and lead you (and her) to avoid taking responsibility and accountability for her own actions and the effects of them.

So, practical stuff....
If I were you, I would take what you wife says at face value and respond accordingly. Which is not the same as believing BS or any of the blame she is throwing your way. You can accept that this is what she has said/done bc it is what she currently feels/has done without holding it to represent some universal truth.
Which means you may need to consider what is necessary and best for your own wellbeing and for the care of your children and your finances. How might things work best with a virtual wife in the annex situation? What needs to change in how big and small day to day life things work? Do you need to do anything about how your joint finances work to protect you and your kids if she goes MLC bonkers with money bc some do?
It’s not easy to train our brains to stop thinking of ourselves as part of a We, but practically speaking, once one person has put separation on the table, that’s what comes along with it....a way of seeing You and Her and the (sometimes) shared ground of parenting. What are your thoughts on this so far? How is it working currently given that your kids are quite small? And have you taken legal advice - even if you are not ready to act on it - about how you might safeguard your own and your kids needs if you separate more formally than the ‘wife in an annex’ situation?

We all know how very hard and painful this is.
We also know that, regardless of what happens with your marriage in future, it is scary and life altering and changes us as LBS.
We also know, if it is MLC, that things may well get harder and more confusing before they get better.
But above all, we know that it can and will get better, that there is a good life on the other side of this even if it is hard to see right now x

[xyzcf]

Hello, welcome to Heros Spouse.

This is a confusing time for you. When I first read about MLC I was struck with an understanding, of being able to make sense from what happened to our marriage of 32 years.

There are many similarities in our stories. Many of the things you listed why you think she is having a "crisis" fit...as well as her past history. Of everything you wrote (and thank you for it helps us to know you and your situation a bit better) this struck me:

It was that night she calmly reiterated that she was done.  She could not give me a reason.  When pushed she said I was over organised and obsessive (on reflect this is true and a consequence of my letting my anxiety take over my life).

If a couple is having difficulties  in their relationship, they can list several reasons why they want out. MLCer's do not give us a reason or they give us some absurd answer...my husband told me I was too intense and I talked too much.....which is somewhat true but didn't seem like a good enough reason to suddenly tell me he was "done". That is the one and only reason he ever gave me.

What took me a long time to accept is that MLC is not about you and not about your marriage. It seems strange since it definitely impacts our marriages.

Couples therapy does not seem to help, what has sent your spouse into a crisis, and there are many theories of what causes this including childhood issues, chemical imbalances, fear of getting older, loss of someone significant in their lives......once they reach the point of bomb drop they have already decided to leave the relationship. They might attend some sessions but are not interested in working on saving the marriage...they are on a different journey now.

As for your own personal therapy,  we have been traumatized by what has happened. Our whole world has been blown apart and the rejection, betrayal and abandonment creates severe distress in us. As you said, you were a good husband and are a good father. You do not have to try and find possible reasons in yourself for why she is in crisis. None of us were perfect and what worked so well for many years is proof to me that it isn't me. The best therapy that I had was working on how to bring my own anxiety, greatly increased by this...my fight/flight/freeze response back to homeostasis...easier said than done. Over time, you will find what works for you.

Read RCR's articles if you have not done so already. There is a wealth of information there to help you understand what is happening. They are worth reading many times throughout this journey you are on.

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

You have young children and the changes in their mom will also affect them. It will be hard to deal with your own pain and also that of your little ones.

You may wish to read threads by Standing Strong. He has some really good insight into his wife's MLC. Here is a link to his first post:

https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=10879.msg727117#msg727117

At this moment in time I am standing.  I reflect on my vows and good days, bad days, rich and poor, sickness and health til death do us part, covers every eventuality.  By walking away now I would not be honouring these and then what was the point in getting married?

I am a Stander and agree with what you wrote. It's not a really something the world views as important but it is to me. It is a very personal decision and one that you will most likely contemplate a great deal. There are many definitions that are given to the idea of standing..one is that it allows you to figure out yourself and how to move forward....my definition aligns with yours.

If your beliefs about marriage are faith based, there is a very helpful site called Rejoice Ministries that has helped me. There is also a Men's Devotional each Saturday although I often find that I can relate just as easily to the men's stance. Just another resource if that fits your worldview.

Feel free to ask questions and use the answers if they fit you and your situation and disregard those that don't. The beauty about Heros' Spouse is that we have walked in similar shoes and can understand things that perhaps our families and friends are not able to.
 

[freefall2flight]

Hi Treasur,

Thank you for your detailed reply.  I have been mulling over posting for the last few days and finally bit the bullet.

Since I have suffered anxiety and depression on and off for 20 years I have built up a reasonable tool set, especially for my depression which has allowed me to go unmedicated for the last 10 years.  Although on reflection my anxiety before this was out of control.  I must admit BD week sent me a little loopy and I was a hot mess and acted impulsively and irrationally.  Luckily I had a good set of family friends (a husband and wife) who took me in on the Sunday, fed me and my kids and listened to me for 4 hours straight with no break.  They really are good friends.  They have been incredible in that they not only listened without judgement but also challenged me too which is what I want.  I feel this is what is needed as it is hard for friends and family not to show some kind of bias.  I thought they were exceptionally balanced, respectful and fair.

I have been reading a book called Feeling Great by Dr David Burns which has actually had a huge impact on my current mood with his TEAM-CBT methods.  In fact I wish I had read his first book Feeling Good 20 years ago, I feel it may have been better then 10 years of medication.  Exercise is really helping too.

Regarding the over and underfunctioning this has been acknowledged in our previous couples counselling sessions and is apparently a hallmark of neurodiverve relationships.  However through my own mirror work I have realised that this impacts me in every facet of my life.  On the Enneagram scale I am a type one (The Reformer) which describes me to a tee!


“Ones are conscientious and ethical, with a strong sense of right and wrong. They are teachers, crusaders, and advocates for change: always striving to improve things, but afraid of making a mistake. Well-organized, orderly, and fastidious, they try to maintain high standards, but can slip into being critical and perfectionistic. They typically have problems with resentment and impatience. At their Best: wise, discerning, realistic, and noble. Can be morally heroic.

Basic Fear: Of being corrupt/evil, defective

Basic Desire: To be good, to have integrity, to be balanced”


I have been working to take a step back and relax a bit more.  I find it hard not to compulsively help people even if I do not actually want to, this includes my wife, family, friends and colleagues to the point I become overburdened.  Even though I feel this comes from a good place I am certain it has contributed to some of our issues.

I really like your point about “Hint....other people’s thoughts, feelings, actions and POV is usually not in our hands....but we have choices for our own and how we respond to events.”  I see that whilst my wife is making questionable choices at the moment, I canot stop her from making them.  At the same time I can lead the choices I make and lead by example (not for her benefit but for my own values that I want to influence my children).

I also agree with what you have said about labels.  Ironically this was what I originally said to my wife when she brought up her concern that she may have ADHD.  I said, it is only a label, we can work together on any challenges you face.  This went down like a lead balloon and was seen as uncaring.  My current view is we are who we and and we are all different, ideally we make the best of what we have and what we can do and not dwell on what we can’t do or what we don’t have.

In terms of blame I am trying to become thicker skinned and feel I have been doing a reasonable job of not responding in a negative way.  This week I was even blamed for my wife driving through a red light when she was driving.  I notice a lot of the blame seems to be a form of projection of her anger/disappointment in herself.  Strangely she will blame me for things which are completely false to the point where she has admitted in a message that she did it.  I have stopped pointing these out as it gets us nowhere.

My biggest fear is the impact on our girls.  Our 6yo is very perceptive and will notice if anything changes in routine.  To this end I have tweaked our routine in the morning since my wife doesn’t get out of bed until late to come into the house.  I get up extra early to make sure I am up before them and have built the morning routine around being upstairs a bit longer.  This was stressful at first but now they are currently buying that Mummy is doing laundry in the garage

In terms of parenting she has really taken a step back doing the bare minimum (yet posts on socials photos which appear to paint a different happy, involved picture - this is why I have always hated the likes of Facebook, it is not real).  I am creating new and enjoyable routines with the children which both I and they are getting a lot out of.  My wife is welcome to join, I only ask her once though.  Sometimes she does other times (like tonight she disappears).

All in all I am trying to keep busy enough that the limbo is at the back of my mind.  This works for me as an individual however it does present some anxieties for events/situations where we would usually be a family. E.g Holidays.  I have actually booked a 3 bedroom caravan for the summer and plan on asking my wife if she wants to join.  I am scared of this but I will need to act soon.  The children do not know of the situation yet and her decision will be pivotal in our current predicament.

My understanding regarding the limbo is just grin and bear it for now as asking about her plans is just pressure

-freefall2flight (I changed from -lost to be more positive :-D)

[freefall2flight]

Hi xyzcf, thank you for the welcome.  What a strange club to join albeit full of fantastic kind people!

Confusion is something I do feel every single day.  Perhaps because I am very logical (I am a scientist and analyst by trade).

I mean in terms of a reason, I can somewhat validate “over organised and obsessive” because it was true.  I have done a lot of work on these things both with my therapist and myself.  However I did ask my wife if she has ever benefited from those traits too.  This did stop her in her tracks. 

When she was talking about splitting our savings 50/50 to separate, I did remind her also how she really hated that I saved most of my disposable income left from my salary into accounts for the girl's future which as built up to a nice little nest egg already.  She disagreed with me doing this as she said “she never had anything growing up, no one saved her”.  My justification was always that it is my money and I rather save for the kids than waste it on marial items for me or the pub.  She has always been free to do whatever she likes with her money.  I just thought it interesting now that this ‘extra’ money she thought she would take a 50% cut from is actually a benefit from my ‘obsessive saving.’

Haha xyzcf, “talking to much,” I have that in common with you too.  I can’t talk first thing in the morning as it is too early.  I can’t talk before school as it is too busy.  I can’t talk during the day because that is for work.  I can’t talk after work as she needs a rest.  I can’t talk at dinner as we are eating.  I can't talk before the girls go to bed as it is too busy again.  I can’t talk after the girls go to bed as that is relaxing time.  Then I can't talk before bed as it is too late lol No we don;t really talk much at all so she got her wish.

You are right, couples therapy was not working.  My wife either did not talk or reiterated things like “feelings can’t change” or “the damage has been done” or other vague nondescript negativeness.  Yet when push by either me or the therapists she could not give any examples of damage or hurt.  It became just me reflecting on what I felt I had contributed to our problems, apologizing blindly and how I was working through my anxiety.  It just seemed to annoy my wife more so I cancelled a session with a work commitment as an excuse and she hasn’t even tried to start it back up.  As you said “they might attend some sessions but are not interested in working on saving the marriage...they are on a different journey now.”  This is completely true to life.

I heard something the other day comparing death to breakup, in death there is usually no choice however in a breakup someone is making a choice.  I feel totally rejected in my wife making this choice.  Peeling back my anger and frustration, I feel overwhelming hurt and very lonely in the evenings when the children are in bed and I am on my own.  Everything I have done (especially in the last 6 years since having kids) has been about my wife, my kids, family and friends.  I lost me. Although I feel selfish I am really trying to do a little more for me now.

In terms of spirituality, it is something I am exploring, I have spoken to people practicing and read material from different faiths.  The one common denominator between the different beliefs is the kindness of the followers.

Thank you again for your reply, I do really appreciate the advice and support.

[readytofixmyselffirst]

Hello,

Sorry that you are here.

MLCer's do not give us a reason or they give us some absurd answer...my husband told me I was too intense and I talked too much.....which is somewhat true but didn't seem like a good enough reason to suddenly tell me he was "done".

and

When pushed she said I was over organised and obsessive (on reflect this is true and a consequence of my letting my anxiety take over my life).

Xyzcf is right. They really can't give you a reason and the only reason why we ask for a reason is so our little "fixer: brain of ours can then fix the problem and restore the relationship.

We all have quirks and things that make us who we are. So when did Mr. Xyzcf determine that his wife talked too much....hmmm year three? twenty-three? Thirty?

She is also right that it is not about you or your marriage. It is all internal. Like a really beautiful car that doesn't have an engine. By all outward appearances, it looks perfect, until you try to start it. That's why marriage counseling doesn't work because it's not about the marriage-it's within them. I did counseling for over two years and it went nowhere. It even was her idea. it all goes back to looking for solutions and not understanding or breaking down the problem.

As stated before, your wife has decided to blow up her entire life. Time to become a new person. Now she has plenty of issues to resolve on her own. So, while she is on her journey, you can start yours. As others have stated, it is a time for you to heal. Bomb drop and everything else has a huge impact and you can't be at you best for your child or yourself until you give yourself the opportunity to heal from the huge blow you have been dealt.

Which means you may need to consider what is necessary and best for your own wellbeing and for the care of your children and your finances.

Say this to yourself everyday. You are on your own journey. It is going to take time, but detach from her and focus on you and your child. Instead of thinking of an ending, think of what you see yourself as becoming. Becoming a better father, becoming a better man. Don't do this for her, but do it for you.

This is a painful time and I am truly sorry, be good to yourself and keep posting your story,

(((Ready)))

[Treasur]

What very measured responses from you to others posts, free.
That says a lot about the kind of man you are, given this is such early days post BD. Worth remembering whenever you fear you might be the bonkers one lol.

I’m highlighting it too bc gaslighting - intentional or otherwise - is pretty common with folks who unravel this way. For a variety of psychological reasons that tbh are not worth unpicking as they are beyond your control and not on your side of the street....but living with extended gaslighting can do a real number on one’s mental health and imho if one has a predeliction to anxiety can trigger a kind of over-fixy reaction in one’s brain, so it is worth being aware of. You may find it helpful to have your own mantra or mental checklist for situations like the red light....if you weren’t there, didn’t know about it, and got no voice or vote on something, it’s pretty unlikely that it has anything to do with you or belongs on your side of the street imho 

How wonderful that your good friends were there to scoop you up in your hour of need. It takes a village sometimes, right? Although - as a dear friend once reminded me when I was expressing my gratitude for how friends had supported me - the friends we have also says something about the kind of friend we are, doesn’t It?

Your w’s current actions though are useful breadcrumbs to predict some of her future actions.....physically absent mummy vs Facebook mummy, her sense of entitlement about what 50/50 means, her ‘I had nothing so why should it be any different for the kids’ and the likelihood given her ‘disappearances’ that there is an OM or Omen in the mix (sorry) which is pretty common here. These things are probably pretty likely predictors of how she will handle future practicalities of separation or any legal/financial issues......and that might help you get your own ducks in a row and consider your options in advance of having to decide on them.

It is very early post BD and the in-home separation/wife in an annex situation is a tough one that others her have lived with, so I will leave it to others to suggest things that helped them. From the cheap seats, your example of the morning ritual with your kids and her absence is a useful one bc it highlights that you have choices about how/if you change your old normal day to day routines - if you live more or less as if you are now separated and a single parent for most of the time or not. Only you know what that spectrum might look like practically and emotionally but lots of other parents here have had to wrestle with that which I hope will be useful to you. I am not a parent (so a million caveats  ) but bc I have experienced PTSD I have learned a great deal of respect for the safety and stability of reality vs not reality.....it is very early days but there will come a time, even with young kids, when the ‘mommy’s doing laundry’ thing is not going to make sense to them. Imho age appropriate truth, without grown up editorial, is part of what makes children feel safe and secure in their own instincts. It avoids unintentionally or inadvertently gaslighting them or leaving them feeling responsible in some way for things that are not about them or bc of them.

Again, I can’t imagine how difficult that must feel as a parent who wants to protect your little one’s from life’s hurts....but it may be worthwhile for you to start considering these things now or talking them over with your IC. Same goes for the holiday booking.....or for thinking about reliable childcare support that might allow you to do some good GAL things instead of sitting solo in the evenings. Do you have local family or friends support that might help? It is pretty rare here (and by rare, I mean almost unheard of lol) that these kind of spouses balance their own wants/needs with being a consistent reliable parent....at best they seem to be able to do an occasional Disney Dad/Mum who pops up for public events or vacations. Most of the time tbh - for a variety of reasons - their Me Me filter is set staggeringly high....everything is about them and their feelings....and of course, to be fair, we LBS can have our own version of that post BD for a while, the We We marriage filter perhaps 

So, lots of things to muse on about how choices you might make - and that are legitimate and ok for you to make independently bc your w has chosen to unilaterally change the family landscape for whatever set of reasons -  will serve you and your children best in creating a stable, secure life. I’m sure it may not be what you want to do, but have you taken legal advice? Bc, as a father with young kids, not all legal systems are automatically in your favour and the devil can lie in the details.....understanding those issues now may help you to avoid short-term reactions that make longer-term choices more difficult?

[freefall2flight]

Thank you ready & treasur,

I am sitting here in my room reading this having got up early to sort the girls out.  They are excited as today we were having a family day....although Mummy has to work now (All rubbish as she had agreed to this day).  However not to be thwarted I have made different plans with the girls and I and booked some great activities for today.

@ready - thank you for your input, I really like your car analogy.  The description of blowing up life is certainly accurate.  As much as I read about MLC I often fall back into the trap of trying to understand even though I know I can't and won't.  The strangest notion is that my wife is 'chasing happiness' but seems so incredibly sad, worse than before BD.  I try an rationalize in my head what she is missing and if she moved on what would she gain but I can only come up with loss e.g all the things she "enjoys" doing at the moment she would no longer be able to afford on her own such as gym (it is very expensive) and partying, eating out etc.  I do not know if ODD (Oppositional defiant disorder) is a common trait with MLC however learning more about ADHD my therapist (who specialisms in ADHD) said is very common for those with ADHD to oppose opinions even if it flies in the face of what they want.  Very self destructive.


I was feeling pretty angry when I woke as we have no food in the house and my wife letting  the girls down again.  She is also out all weekend (lol she "reminded me" not to expect her to get up as she will be hungover!  Way to prioritize the children! She never gets up anyway.  In fact unless I am ill or exhausted I don't really lay in and so have always worked with the value if my wife needs sleep and I am awake, why would I make her get up.  I thought that was me being kind but perhaps I was enabling her) . I had planned food shopping earlier in the week however my wife was sheepishly wanting to make plans herself for that evening, so I was accommodating and changed my plans for another time (only the gym) but explained if she went out she would need to consider groceries.  Clearly did not register as we have nothing.

However, I am trying to think positive and the girls love to go food shopping so I will weave it into our days activities.  I may end up with random items in the trolley but all part of the fun.


@treasur They really are good friends.  The husband moved from India when he has 12 and I have known him for 25 years. The values of of his family are inspiring and I feel very loved by his entire family as are my children (and wife I may add!).

I am trying to not take certain things to heart when I know the accusations are either completely false or downright ludicrous.  I have taking to laughing and smile about them as sometimes it is so silly.  If I can't do it outwardly I do it in my head.

What is helping (I think as it is all very uncharted waters) is emotionally preparing myself for the crazy and potential OM.  She has previously been very self conscious about her body and I originally told myself she would never have an A.  However I am learning that this are no laws in crazy town and my science brain cannot hope to understand.  Now I am trying to be in the mindset of whatever happens I will deal with each challenge as it arrives.  No need to deal with things that have not happened, just lean to expect them.

I don't know much about PTSD so I will add that to my reading list.  I really do worry about my children's mental health in all of this.  My eldest around bomb drop although not knowing what was going on, she was very emotional and told us she was hearing voices in her head! She also is already showing signs of ADHD which has not worried me as I am just taking the time to work with her on what her likely challenges would be.  e.g we have a white board where she tickets of things she has to remember in the morning wich really engaes her and works (it worried my wife more yet as of yet she refuses to help or encourage our D6).  This is a common theme with my W, she will complain about something but never suggest let alone action anything to initiate change.  The school have advised we help D6 with a cople of things at home (she is doing well but just needs a little more support in  some areas) however my wife is more interested in tweetering/FBing/Instawhatevering.  Again, I have a choice to do what is best for D6 so I do not begrudge picking up the mantle for this. 

I laughed out loud at Disney Mum because that is so true at the moment.  And the real ringer is:

"everything is about them and their feelings"

My wife is blindly lead by feelings and makes every decision based on them which is crazy.  My D6 made a decision at the weekend to do something silly that she knew was a bad idea however she was "feeling" left out as her friends were doing it so my D6 copied them and injured herself.  Even at 6 she quickly learnt a lesson that acting on feelings alone can get you into trouble (she is ok now though, just a nice big graze all down her arm, she won't do it again lol).

I am lucky my parents live close by and they have been super helpful.  I feel guilty as I have leaned on them more recently.

I have most of our finances in order.  Since I have always dealt with the the finances yet hold that value that in a relationship there should be transparency (with the exception of our own disposable income, I also feel it is important to have your own funds to do nice things for yourself.  It just so happens my wife like to spend hers - nothing wrong with that as it is her money - and I liked to save most of mine), most of our joint money is in joint accounts, in pots for different expenses.  Although my wife hates it, the organisation and structure has afforded us a comfortable life with no major financial concerns.  Although in an effort to validate and listen to my wife, earlier in the year I simplified the finances a bit and moved a large chunk of savings from my account to the joint accounts.  She agreed to do the same from her account (these monies were joint monies anyway just held in our personal account for interest purposes).  In fact I was sending money to her personal savings account as per my previous post.  Well since we agreed this in January she has still not moved this money over.  I neurally reminded her earlier in the week as however she has still not done so.  I am stating to suspect it no longer exists.  But if that is the case then I will deal with it then.

I like to think she would be amicable about the girls if the worst happens however I am learning this world is upside down and my wife is not currently who she was.  I will look into legal advice, I think that is a prudent suggestion.

My anger has melted into tears this morning through all your kind words.  It certainly is a roller-coaster of emotion as no matter how strong I feel at one moment, a wave of sadness hits me in another.  Then the tide turns and I can hit by a wave of strength and resolve.  That is truely exhausting.

The limbo is also hard but I do not think either of us are ready to deal with any questions about the future.  In all honesty I am glad she is still here in the house (not in the house) as it does give me a glimmer of hope.  I think because close by although hard to manage with children unknowing is better than her vanishing

Thanks again for all your comments, I am off for a fantastic day with the girls :-D

[freefall2flight]

P.S a quick scan and my spelling and grammar was appalling.  However in an effort to calm my perfectionism I chose not to worry about it  Have a good day all

[Treasur]

I wouldn’t worry about reading up on PTSD tbh.....just keep focusing on consistently using all the tools and hacks you know already that manage your anxiety well. As my gran used to say, and you say here, no need to borrow trouble until trouble troubles us, right? (And imho that statement alone is the difference between being in the grip of one’s anxiety as opposed to having moments when it pops up....so, go you, another positive sign of how you are coping!....anxious brains tend to live in unknown futures, don’t they?)

What you shared about the groceries and the transfer of money is pretty standard experience here.
Again, putting the reasons to one side, there is a cavernous gap usually between what these folks say and what they do. Which is why you’ll see the phrase here about ‘believe nothing of what they say and only half of what they do’. Why does that matter? Bc what tends to rip us up emotionally and practically is that we expect something different....for them to keep their word, or behave like the ‘old them’ or how we think they should as a normal adult, or have the same priorities as we do. The anger is normal....it just shows you expected something different. Most LBS go through a process of adapting their expectations slowly. Tbh it can be a bit of a pendulum when we swing from expecting the best to expecting nothing but the worst....most of us find a way, with time, to expect what seems sensible to expect, adjusting our own behaviour accordingly and not making anything very important contingent on them doing anything much, allowing ourselves to be pleasantly surprised (without reading too much into it) when they do actually do what they said they would do. So it’s infuriating or bewildering lol....but normal as part of this experience if that helps. Next time, i’d guess you won”t rely on your wife for groceries for you and your kids..... ....we live and learn, right?

I hope you have a delightful family day with your girls....such a nice age for simple delights...and again, well done you for turning lemons into lemonade. It’s a reminder too that even if the shape of ‘family’ is now changed bc of your wife’s current actions, you and your girls are still family 

[xyzcf]

One of the things that add to my belief that this is a crisis and not a marriage problem is how they distance themselves from their children removing themselves from "responsibilities" of any sort and their belief that the kids will be just fine. If it truly is the LBSer who they wanted to leave, there are ways to make sure that the children are still a priority. It is very common and very hurtful to our kids.

Do we tell them or not tell them things about their parent who is in crisis? Depends upon the age of the children in some respects. My daughter was older, an adult really but I choose not to share many details with her although she could easily see that he no longer was the same person..and her observations allowed me to accept that something major had happened to him. As I learned more about MLC, we were able to use that information to allow us to step back from our own feelings of rejection and that helped us both.

She and I have both been in therapy because of this...I do not know for sure but I would make a pretty good guess that he has not been in therapy. I wanted her to be able to have a relationship with him, which became difficult at times for he did things that made her very angry...I have been the catalyst to allow some kind of normalcy in our family but that again is our own decision.

My daughter has ADD and struggled in school but she did graduate from university and  has been extremely successful in the advertising world, really exceeding my expectations.....her organizational skills which she developed to help manage both her education and home life have assisted her greatly in her success.

Enjoy your day with the girls and your grocery shopping with them. I remember those days...they are precious to me.

[OffRoad]

The white board is a great idea for your daughter. Both of my kids have dyslexia and executive function problems. I created wipe off checklists for them so they could get themselves ready for school in the morning (yes, you need two socks, every day).

I will caution you about putting money in an account and expecting an MLCer to "share". In my experience, they spend all their money, then want half of what is left. The smart move is to keep the money out of reach so it is still there should you have to split it. Only put enough in the joint accounts for bills. If nothing else, get some good advice from an attorney about your finances and how to protect them. My mlcer went through $20,000 in one month. With nothing to show for it.

And the last thing I want to mention, though I figure you have already figured it out: I doubt  you can depend on your W for anything, including groceries. For me, I was a single parent with an extra person taking up space in the house and coming home in the middle of the night barfing his brains out. I had to give him a curfew because he'd leave the front door open when he came home. Not unlocked, open.

You sound like you have a good handle with your girls. Just keep taking care of them and yourself.

[freefall2flight]

Hey All,

I had a nice day yesterday with the girls. The only downer was when I took them into my wife’s work to see her.  My wife was very cold and stonewalled me but at least she was good with the children.  I suspect my wife’s mood was due to the fact I had chased her to follow through on moving the money we had both agreed into our joint savings since I had already met my end of the bargain.  She did in the end but not until about midnight and after two months and a number of reminders.  Some monies appear to be missing but not a huge amount so not worth sweating over it.  I have noticed any slight negativity in my thought patterns starts to breed a spiral of more thoughts,  I am getting better at stopping that though.  I do make myself laugh at how these hypothetical scenarios develop in my head. 

For example I started to convince myself yesterday my W may be having an A with the man she was working with.  They were both working alone all day and when I took the girls in he was super friendly and nice to them and my wife was super awkward.  However once I decided not to get on the crazy brain train I thought, well if she is I cannot stop it so why worry about it unless it happens.

What I have realised is that everything in my wife’s MLC life now revolves around work. 

Her confidants are her ‘best friend/employee’ and her ‘older friend/mother-replacement’ who is having an affair herself lol. 
Her social life is exclusively with work with nights out with them
She works extra hours
She currently has a weird baking obsession which she puts a ton of effort into (frankly amazing) making cakes and desserts for work
Her work life obviously depends on her job too

She has isolated herself from our old shared friends, cut herself off from the friends we made as new parents and even her only school friend she has left.

I suppose if she were to start an A it would likely be under that work umbrella.  Is that common?

@Treasur


You are totally right, I love your gran’s saying “no need to borrow trouble until trouble troubles us.”  Wise words!  I have totally been stuck in an unknown future in the past and am very prone to it.

I keep trying to tell myself when I feel she has let the girls down, well at least I can rely on me.


@Xyzcf

Yes, the withdrawal from the girls is something that makes me incredibly sad. When she is in true Mum mode, she is amazing but when she is not she is in her own world.  It broke my heart when she said separation will have no impact on the kids, they will get through it.  Especially when I look at the lives of her parents and siblings.  It is my opinion, at best none of them are truly happy and at their worst they openly display and admit it.

In fact, keeping telling myself that MLC is a sickness and this person is not my wife and ‘my wife’ would never do the things she is doing now or act in that was somewhat comforts me.

That is awesome to hear how well your daughter is doing, you must be super proud!  My understanding of ADD thus far is that it is embracing the condition to play to your strengths, that was how I reacted when my wife initially approached me about it.  There are so many examples of super successful people with ADD.


@Off Road

Thank you, the white board has really been a hit.  So much so my 3yo when she woke up this morning i dashed in as I fear them finding out Mummy is not in our room any more….low and behold my 3yo was making her bed.  My heart melted.  She said “I am just doing my jobs Daddy”

Wowzers, $20k in a month, that is some hefty spending!

Well my W has gone out tonight and although I fear the worst of A at the same time I was a bit relieved when she said she would not be back.  My wife vomits in her sleep after drinking and I often have to put her in recovery or “remove said vomit from her mouth” (sorry to be graphic).  Is that what a bad husband would do lol.  It gives me a bit of respite in the morning as the girls know she won't be home.  I won't be on edge when I wake up for once.  I actually ran into the wall the other day trying to run interference whilst half asleep!


Final Rant of the evening

Thank you as always for your comments, these boards do calm me when it all gets too much.

My W was actually nice to me at lunch today and I made us all some nice food and we went swimming (I got a very rare thank you!).  Didn't last long though, I got a flat tyre warning which sent my W into Monster Mode when I suggested she help me fix the problem so she could learn in case this happened to her on her own or with the girls.  I mean she really raged lol In fact what almost sucked me into the fight was when she said "I am not doing that, you do it and shut up!" I did say I don’t think I have done anything to deserve this, I literally am asking for your help.  At that point I got in the car and my devil side urged me to drive off and leave her stranded 25 miles from home.  I think she knew that too….however i just pulled forward to give me more space to get to the tyres :-D. It did make her stop yelling though. A little mischief is ok right haha

[freefall2flight]

Up early this morning with the girls. Taking them out on their bikes. Old anxious and depressed me would not have done this so I am proud of myself!

Clearly W either lied or the night didn't go to plan as instead of staying out overnight she stumbled back in at 2:45am. I did have a laugh watching on the CCTV this morning her try and figure out how to use her door key. It was like a monkey using tools for the first time lol

I did hear her come in and usually I would rush to check on her, but even the familar sounds of hiccuping, a pre vomit sign, I just let her get in with it and went back to sleep. She is still in her pity pit at the moment.

Here's to a good morning with the girls. Happy days all!

[Treasur]

You are early on in this process, free, so these kind of interactions will probably still be shaped by old ‘we’ habits. With time, you will start to unpick them to make new ones. Hence, my flagging a couple....no criticism, just to increase your awareness of them.

So, your w bailed on the family day and went to work instead having failed to buy groceries as she said she would? What was your motivation - your most honest, perhaps even squirmy one  - in taking your kids to see her at work without some prior arrangement? I can think of several....to check she was at work, to poke her a bit about her awol parenting, to maintain some kind of pretence for your girls, to show off ‘good dad’ a bit? What prevented you from just having the day with your girls as a solo dad? Is this how you would behave as a separated parent or not? From the cheap seats, it read as if you were poking the bear somewhat? Do you know what your goal was? And did you achieve it? The same for the car tyre episode.....do you still see it as your role to ‘teach’ your w something? How sensible does that seem given that currently you can’t rely on her to buy groceries to feed your kids? What was that all about from your POV? What was your goal and did you achieve it?

With time, and a bit of mental detachment, these kinds of things are good working examples of how we pause to consider our own honest intent (bc stuff gets messy for a while in these situations) and to consider how appropriate or constructive it is to do what perhaps we used to do vs seeing some things as no longer how things should work.

I did have a laugh watching on the CCTV this morning her try and figure out how to use her door key. It was like a monkey using tools for the first time lol......I did hear her come in and usually I would rush to check on her, but even the familar sounds of hiccuping, a pre vomit sign, I just let her get in with it and went back to sleep.

WRT to this ^^^^, I don’t know if you have heard about the principle of the slowly boiling frog. (I’m not even sure if it is true or just a metaphor lol). But writ large it seems to be a human truth that we adapt slowly to normalise things that with a little distance or a different lens we come to realise are not so normal for normal folks. Or simply not our chosen normal for how we want to live. And that this is particularly so when we are interacting with rather dysfunctional folks who have an internal agenda to normalise the not so normal or behave as if it is ok to do things that the majority of folks find not ok. Doesn’t mean we can control them, or that we are responsible for any of it, but we do have the right to choose our own version of normal and ok for ourselves....often where boundaries come into play tbh.

It is not normal for a wife and parent of young children to regularly stay out all night without the children’s caregiver knowing where they are. And adults don’t stay out all night to play chess or form knitting groups usually. It is not normal for someone to drink so much that they have to be put into a recovery position or for a spouse to scoop vomit out of their mouth on their return. Really, it isn’t.

And part of reassessing any of our own habits of codependency or enabling or appeasing dysfunction usually requires us to look a little deeply at the reality in front of us and why/if we see it as normal when normal folks would largely not see it that way or even if it connects to other templates of ‘normal’ from our own life experience outside of our marriage.

I don’t know how much of this behaviour from your wife existed before BD, or if it is a new behaviour.....from the cheap seats, I would suggest at a bare minimum that your wife has a problem with alcohol. And that anyone else’s alcohol issues are unfixable by anyone but them and it is rare to hear stories that suggest scooping vomit or similar have any contribution to other folks changing their behaviour.. And that this may be a practical issue to factor in as you start to work out the best way to take care of you and your children’s needs in this current situation or as things unfold. Sobering stuff to have to think about, I know - if you’ll  pardon the pun - but often for we LBS, bit by bit, events force us to have to look at the observable reality we can see with a brave eye in order to safeguard our own wellbeing and that of our kids.

Well done on getting up early to create a new kind of normal with your girls. I hope you have a lovely day!

[freefall2flight]

Haha, this is why I like these boards and I really do appreciate that they challenge us.  No criticism taken Treasur, I am truly grateful for your input, please keep them coming.  As much as the MLCers can be crazy, I think it is very easy to get all twisted up ourselves.

So the reason I took my kids to see my wife is as she works in a public facing building and when my parents are in tow with the children they have often done the same.  However, Treasur you challenged me to find the truth 😃 So reflecting 1) I did it looking for reward from my W for doing what I felt was good deed / fix her mindset about me (doh, I didn’t win on that punt) and 2) To show we were having a nice time just us (Double fail lol). Reason number 3) was actually as I knew the children would get something out of it which they did.  So reflecting on point 3, that should have been the only goal if any at all and that was the only one that hit.  I think in future I will need to resist doing that.  As much as the kids enjoyed seeing their M they equally would not have missed that moment should I not have manufactured it!

RE: the alcohol, I have had a relative die from alcoholism and it was painful to see as it is completely true that only they can help themselves.  They had their demons and could not exorcise them sadly before it was too late.  My W admitted in our MC sessions that currently she had an issue ‘moderating’ whilst out and blamed the current circumstances of our relationship however did acknowledge that it was unhealthy. I know too well from my history of aniety and depression self medication with whatever the chosen vice does not work, numbness is not a solution.  Thankfully I broke free of that before things got too bad however there are always consequences.

W has never to my knowledge had a problem drinking daily (and I am familiar with the signs as per said family member who passed) however a common issue I would say of gen z/millennials is the tendency to binge drink in excess.  My personal feeling is W has been depressed on and off for years too and rarely socialised outside of our shared friends circle and almost never ever on her own despite my encouragement and support to GAL.  Those rare times she did go out she ‘really let loose’ and was ill as described.  It is like the pendulum has swung the other way now which brings more of these party episodes.  My only concern with self medicating is I know she is not sleeping and is self medicating with a variety of sleeping pills and other OTA medicines.  I don't venture into her ‘space’ as it is a boundary I respected from day one however since our laundry is in there, on the odd occasion I am forced to go in to get some of the children's clothes I am greeted by a flashback 17 year olds room with mess everywhere, pill packets and the odd empty wine bottle.  This does start to concern me however I am hoping since she has seen her doctor this may rescind a bit.  Sadly all her symptoms e.g not sleeping, constant tiredness, lethargy, headaches, body aches, palpitations are signs of stress, anxiety and depression however I have learnt she cannot be told.

On a more positive note, a great day with my girls and I chose to just focus on them and my family all morning.  When I returned I make the 3 of us lunch and my W came home in the middle and went straight into her space.  She was in and out all afternoon but was constantly glued to her phone. At one point she was playing a game with my youngest but was so distracted by her phone that as soon as I walked back in the room my D lost interest in time with her M and came and asked me to play.  This was nice but also made me sad for both my W and my D.  This is not who my W was.

I went for a run which actually really lifted my mood and really calmed my thoughts, so much so that when I realised where I was I ‘thought’ how much my running had improved and what a cracking pace I had set today.  This brought a massive sense of pride to me and I had a beaming smile on my face.  I then realised that by completely switching off I had actually take a completely different route on auto pilot and had not actually ran nearly as far as I had expected.  Usually this would have really annoyed me however it just made me laugh at myself and smile even more.  I had a really profound thought at that point and the phrase “ there is more than one path to happiness” really hit home.

When I got back the girls were in the bath and my wife was just outside the bathroom on her phone.  I went straight in and I usually sit on the toilet and sing and tell stories to the girls.  I love bath time and it is the perfect time to engage them in one place and spend time with them.  My wife misses out so much by not capitalising on the time but that is her choice.
I am also certain she suffered postpartum depression as she did express after our 2nd D was born that she felt she had lost the ability to bond with them.  This has only gotten worse over the last 3 years, worse last Oct and really bad since BD in Jan.

I then made dinner for me, my W and the girls and we all sat and watched some family TV.  These are my favourite times as it is one of the only moments I can guarantee a smile and seeing a glimpse of my real W.  Typing this bit is making me tear up as I really miss her with all my heart.

After the girls went bed she just asked if there was anything else that needed doing to which I replied, I don't think so and she just walked out to her space.  I'm not sure what to read of that if anything.

My next challenge is going to be bringing up that i have booked a holiday for me and the girls.  I have actually paid for accommodation with an extra room as I want my W to have the option to join.  Since the girls do not know the situation, anything other than my wife joining us for the weeks holiday will have a significant impact on our circumstances.  I am a bit unsure how to proceed with this one.

Thanks again.

[xyzcf]

 

Reason number 3) was actually as I knew the children would get something out of it which they did

. 

As parents, we put our children's needs ahead of ours. An opportunity to see their mum at work, especially since she is being distant to them in other ways was a natural part of the outing...something that you and grandparents have done in the past...something that is "normal".

Although every action we take has several other "reasons" attached, we are humans and still connect to our spouses. So it's pretty natural to want something for oneself as well.

Analyzing every move you make and applying a measurement of whether this was the "right" or "wrong" thing for you to do is exhausting.

You still care about your wife and you are concerned about her well being. Once again, pretty normal for whatever situation causes a spouse to be engaging in harmful behaviors. This too is not "good" or "bad" but it is reality. Because our spouse is in a crisis doesn't mean that we need to shut them out of our lives. Actually I have found that learning to deal with the person who is in crisis helped me to accept the reality of our lives.

quote] I walked back in the room my D lost interest in time with her M and came and asked me to play.  This was nice but also made me sad for both my W and my D.  This is not who my W was.[/quote]

No, sadly she is no longer the person she once was.

You seem to realize that you are not going to be able to change her....and you are recognizing the activities that make you feel calmer, focusing on your children and aware of your feelings and emotions....all good stuff.

I am greeted by a flashback 17 year olds room with mess everywhere, pill packets and the odd empty wine bottle. 

These are the types of things that help us to see how very changed they are...and often we see them resort to younger years and act as though they are at a younger age.

One of the theories of MLC is that they failed to complete the stages of development adequately for whatever reason and they are headed back to those years, perhaps where some trauma affected them.

Eric Erikson's Stages of Life is well documented of what should occur with each stage of development...often a infancy of childhood is not able to attain completion of those stages and that may cause them to revert back and go into crisis later in life.....just one of many theories.

[Standing Strong]

Hey FF2F 

Oh boy you're going thru a lot..... so sorry this has come to your home.

So she's 33? That's very young, I mean it's not too young for something like this to start.... but not the typical age for a MLC collapse.
Mine started a slow slide into eventual collapse at 32, so to hear about a bigger cliff at this age is..... different..... but there's a bunch of clues.

I really like that you are treating her with patience and space. Excellent!! So good too that you have a dedicated area for her to run away (outstanding).
Given that she is still there, that's a good sign, and IMO young children are an anchor for women.
I'm glad you understand this is going to take a lot of time, but it does get much easier after you get your sea legs. 

Very understandable that this is happening given the history you wrote about. The good thing (for you) is that this will supercharge your ability to heal yourself, and the issues you had in the past. Big reset button, huge opportunity. Make the most of it and use it.

Going to be a lot of really hard days ahead. Journal, journal, journal (it helps).

I would be shocked if she dealt with herself here and resolved her issues. I mean, she could fall, go splat at the bottom and climb out...... but she's so young..... she's way ahead of the curve. Much more likely she'll do an MLC "trial run" rebellion, get scared, jump out of the tunnel, and try to continue on until she really breaks around 40.
If that happens you'll have a rare opportunity to try and diffuse the bomb..... so this could be a huge blessing in disguise.

Well, you're doing really good so far..... just remember: no pressure, no pressure, no pressure. Don't spook her. She'll do what she'll do (probably little to nothing) and you do everything else. No drawing attention to yourself, just take care of the kids, take care of yourself, and improve (shine in all things). If she's a ghost, let her be a ghost. Praise good things, ignore everything else. No talk about missing her, or "us" or anything like that. No manipulation, no lies, no expectations. Since she has lost her normal feelings, the most magnetic thing will be the love and happiness of family. Grow that with your little ones and provide openings for her to sneak in. Always allow a way for her to slip away (outright, or when things become too difficult for her). Belonging is huge for the MLC'er but they can't handle too much.

With any luck, she won't be weirded out too long but there will be plenty to take care of afterward.

Looking forward to your further adventures. Stay strong (show no weakness no matter what)!!!

-SS
 

[Treasur]

My next challenge is going to be bringing up that i have booked a holiday for me and the girls.  I have actually paid for accommodation with an extra room as I want my W to have the option to join.  Since the girls do not know the situation, anything other than my wife joining us for the weeks holiday will have a significant impact on our circumstances.  I am a bit unsure how to proceed with this one.

With my coaching hat on, free, what have you learned from some of these recent experiences which might be relevant and helpful in figuring this out?

And what might ‘the significant impact’ be and for whom? How important is this holiday booking really in the greater scheme of things? (Bc it’s a pretty normal trauma-type response for we LBS in the early days to invest a lot of eggs in particular baskets that, with time, don’t always hold the significance we think they might....worth a moment of calm consideration anyhoo  ) Why did you book it and what are your objectives for it (and are they the same now as when you booked it)? What are the full range of your options? Could your wife prevent you from taking the kids if she didn’t agree with it, say if it were overseas or out of state? How much of your desire to figure it out might be influenced by your own general anxiety and what would you do if you didn’t feel anxious about it at all? And when is it booked for, as there might be a difference in your POV if it is next week or three months away?

Others I hope will pop by to share their experiences of similar situations involving their kids.

[Reinventing]

how much my running had improved and what a cracking pace I had set today.  This brought a massive sense of pride to me and I had a beaming smile on my face.

I, too, found running helped me tremendously for a long time. Gave me something to look forward to and helped me work through the anxiety. All that extra adrenalin.

[freefall2flight]

@treasur,

I booked the holiday a couple of weeks ago after spending the weekend at one of my oldest friends. He knows about the situation and invited me to get me out the house.

As much as I enjoyed being busy with two good friends it spun me out a bit as they both know my W as long as I have and it made me sad for some reason that my W doesn't exist liket they knew either at the moment. My two friends were innocently talking about family trips and inadvertently asked me my plans with the girls and I just broke down.

The next morning I thought about how we always took the girls on holiday when my parents are away as they are our childcare over the summer.

Since we have always done this and I was also sad and angry that they would miss out, especially since D6 has talked about all the trips her friends have taken with their family. The situation does impact them but should not impact their happy memories so I wanted to at least have a plan in place, something to look forward too.

My dilemma is that I know this will force my W hand somewhat to change the status quo from the limbo we are currently living in. I do think it wishful thinking that we will all go away together. I really want to protect my little girls. They are only small and they deserve better.

The holiday is domestic and in July.  I guess the possibilities are that she objects to me taking them, decides not to come or joins us.

Main thing is i think the girls need a holiday as that is what we would usually do howe er the ckncewuences of two of thr three possiblities scare me.

@standing

Thank you for your words of encouragement, they are needed. My parents struggle to see why I would want to stand and considering they are pro marriage they incinuate often I should walk. This is not helpful and I have tried to tell them this without stomping over their feelings too

I feel truly sad today. Maybe a comedown from the enjoyable day yesterday and the 60 minute family window we had in the evening. Maybe it's as I am back working in a city today when my wife and I spent many happy times in our early years passing our old haunts.

My heart does hurt today and can't help feeling a bit defeated by the loneliness that overwhelms me sometimes. I still find myself in disbelief of how your best friend can just turn their back completely. Don't get me wrong I am very grateful that the W remains on the property but I struggle to think we are both isolated and for what reason.

Sorry, I feel guilty for bringing the pity party today, espcially when many of you on these boards have it much worse.

Last straw today I have cried on my burrito and it is soggy.

Tomorrow will be better! Maybe even later today!

[freefall2flight]

@reinventing

Yes, all exercise is actually helping and I have managed to loose around 10kg so far. I am trying to revisit some old activities too as well as some new ones. However running does allow me to switch off most of the time which I like.

[xyzcf]

I feel truly sad today. Maybe a comedown from the enjoyable day yesterday and the 60 minute family window we had in the evening. Maybe it's as I am back working in a city today when my wife and I spent many happy times in our early years passing our old haunts.

My heart does hurt today and can't help feeling a bit defeated by the loneliness that overwhelms me sometimes. I still find myself in disbelief of how your best friend can just turn their back completely.

No need to apologize for feeling sad and lonely. We have all been in those shoes and HS is a safe place for you to express your feelings.

Your parents and indeed other friends and family have a hard time understanding why you stay with your wife, why you don't move on and find someone..."you deserve better" you will be told.......

Eventually I gave up trying to explain and eventually people stopped asking me.

The holiday that you have booked for July is something that I do as well as another good friend of mine who is a HS member.  It is a matter of how we decide to treat the MLCer...RCR talks in her articles about unconditional and agape love and I agree with showing the MLCer kindness, empathy and compassion...and one of the ways I do that is to get out of his way (as Standing wrote so well)......however, he is included and welcomed in family times. So we do go away together with our daughter and he spends Christmas with us and times when she visits here.

It was not always easy for me but the benefits outweigh my own discomfort and I have healed adequately that his presence doesn't shake me.

This was my choice for my family.

Other couples who separate or divorce and have children do find a way to have some grace in this...my brother and his wife divorced and bought houses on the same street so the kids could go back and forth between parents  and didn't have to change schools...it wasn't easy for the parents to do this but they considered what was best for their kids.

Your wife may or may not decide to go. That is up to her. You have made it possible that she has the option to go. You are making plans for you and the children to have a summer holiday..because that is important to how you live your life, important for the children to have these childhood memories.

The hard part is seeing "happy" families and couples together and not having that for ourselves.

Exercise certainly helps.

I hated when I would feel really good and think, ok, I've got this and then come crashing down...and sometimes, when I would find out things, my heart would feel as though it was breaking .......all those songs about heartbreak are true I discovered....  ....it takes a. great deal of time to recover from this, these are deep deep wounds and so don't be too hard on yourself...the hardest thing of all is to let go and not feel like we have the "right" to some kind of explanation or discussion...unfortunately they are not capable of giving us one.

[Reinventing]

I hated when I would feel really good and think, ok, I've got this and then come crashing down...and sometimes, when I would find out things, my heart would feel as though it was breaking .......all those songs about heartbreak are true I discovered.... 

Yes, that rollercoaster of emotions was highly frustrating for me. And that dreaded TIME.

[freefall2flight]

I hated when I would feel really good and think, ok, I've got this and then come crashing down...and sometimes, when I would find out things, my heart would feel as though it was breaking .......all those songs about heartbreak are true I discovered....  ....it takes a. great deal of time to recover from this, these are deep deep wounds and so don't be too hard on yourself...the hardest thing of all is to let go and not feel like we have the "right" to some kind of explanation or discussion...unfortunately they are not capable of giving us one.

This really resonates.  I thought I had started to build back up over that last 3/4 weeks or so however for some reason I have been so despairing since the weekend.  I thought I had cried all my tears but they are back with a vengeance.  At least least I keep it together in front of my girls and my W.

I have started up Kenda's Thrive course again so hopefully that will help.  I think my despair comes from thinking about my children's future.  It is silly really as I know I have the love, motivation and agency to do whatever I possibly can to give them all that I can give them, however it still breaks my heart how my W is with them.  Her decision making does not seem to factor them in.  I know we can't expect them to think in this way but I am finding it hard to adjust to that at the moment.  Especially since she is becoming what she feared in the Mum that abandoned her and her brother, who then years later abandoned her youngest sister and finally abandoned my wife just as D6 was born.  Can they not see the chaos they are recycling (I know they cannot but it is wreaking my heart).

At the moment W is all over the place.  The last 2 days I have worked in the office instead of at home and she is late every morning, forgetting things the girls need etc.  This morning I got up early and did my usual morning routine with the girls and filled the gaps in the bits my wife didn't do.  I have no problem with this, as you all have said, don't have any expectations.  The girls and I all had a fun morning, no rush or stress (my wife's rushing seems to put the girls on edge and then she at times gets sharp with the girls) and they were all ready early in time to watch a few minutes of TV (that's my deal wit them - all your chores done and ready for school and you can relax.  My wife was still late, even though she had to do nothing for the girls and got up late.  This is where the combo of ADHD and MLC complicates matters even more I feel.  Both issues she is doing nothing to address.

Last night she was late home and so didn't make dinner for the girls.  Luckily even though I was returning from the office, I got home before them to cook something quickly.  She was very distant during dinner (Tuesday is a day we agreed to always do family dinner) and eagerly rushed away suggesting she needed to get the girls bed clothes ready.  Its a shame as along with family dinner we also have games for the girls on the Tuesday too and this did get cut short.  However my wife for those 15 minutes did seem to enjoy herself and get involved with the girls.

Last night I did broach about the holiday I had booked with my W after the girls went bed. I timed it just before I went out GAL for the evening as I wanted to give her space to digest.  I announced in a 'sky is blue fashion' that I had booked a holiday for the period whilst my parents are away in July this year (my Mum looks after the girls in the summer at times whilst we are at work).  I said I had booked a 3 bedroom accommodation as I wanted to give her the choice to come with us.  She became very fidgety, rubbing her face and hair. and said 'okkkkk'  I then added I thought it was important for the girls to have a holiday to look forward too, especially since D6 had been taking with her friends about their plans and had been questioning what we were doing.  I concluded by saying I think the girls need a holiday and then said 'heck' I need a holiday too and I am sure you do too (to the W).  At this point she "yes butted" me to which I did interrupt her to say you don't need to decide now and that you have time to go away and think about the choice you want to make.  I then said by and left for my activity.

I chose last night as I have found out her 'original' best friend is coming over tonight (the sensible one that my W initially avoiding talking too as apparently she would not understand and is too straight laced!  I thought it may have been worth planting the seed yesterday knowing my wife has the opportunity to raise this with her friend who is very similar to I in that she is very methodical and logical (although she is loyal to my wife).

I just hope that my wife does not make rash decisions based on her inability to stand being around me most of the time.  The best times are when we are together having fun as a family e.g watching family TV, doing an activity or playing games.  Any other time including dinner she is very awkward.  I am very comfortable talking with the girls about their day, what they learned, what they enjoyed, what they may do the next day, what they are looking forward to at the weekend.  This is a value I believe in greatly, talking to one another at dinner time was a big part of my upbringing.  My wife struggles with this and does not really get involved in the conversation.  if i stay quiet to give her the opportunity to start conversation with the girls she generally stays silent. She is either in her head or on her phone.  If she decides not to go it is going to greatly increase the urgency for her to do something (anything at all as she is currently in wallowing limbo paralysis most of the time apart from her high energy bursts for nights out) to get out what she deems to be the worst life ever which will in turn impact the girls.

The limbo is tricky.  As much as I am gald she is still close by like i previously mentioned, it does seem to cause me huge anxiety.

On a positive not, I went for a run this morning as I was really struggling with my emotions and that has somewhat helped. I have also had a good cry writing this post.  Thank you all for your support.

P.S sorry if I have repeated or ranted.  I still don't feel myself at the moment but I am sure I will get there

[Treasur]

The limbo is tricky. 

Yes, it is. I can’t overemphasise how remarkably well you are doing, given where you are right now. You probably can’t see that quite so clearly, but those of us who have been around for a little while can see it. Is it perfect? Or easy? Or how you want things to be? No. But every small bit of calm and normality and contentment that you inject into your life and your kids’ life is like anti-limbo effects medicine....and you are doing tremendously well.

As much as I am gald she is still close by like i previously mentioned, it does seem to cause me huge anxiety.

That’s very normal for a far from normal situation when our nervous system tends to flip between waiting for the next metaphorical hand grenade or trying to make something firm in the midst of uncertainty. It will get easier with time, my friend. Either bc events (or your own choices) will create more pockets of solid ground instead of limbo or bc you will find ways to live well around the limbo. Or a bit of both. I suspect, reading your post - and I can’t tell you how common and normal this is for we LBS in the early days - some of the anxiety is heightened bc you are trying to predict and compensate for your wife’s current behaviour. Even maybe watching it a little too closely like a bug under a microscope to look for ‘signs’, either good or not so good from your POV. With time, and a little bit of conscious effort, as you emotionally detach more from your expectations and her behaviour, this gets easier bc your lens focuses more on other things. Like ‘family dinner’, or games with your kids, or even the holiday, you will find your own way to approach these things which does not feel contingent on her actions or involvement....and that tends to chip away at that feeling of limbo. It also tends to build our confidence that, whatever happens and even if life turns out a little different than we planned, you and your girls can be ok. Plus tbh it starts to show your wife in very practical ways, without you saying a thing, that there may be some effects from her choices that don’t seem quite so shiny, that if she chooses to leave the family, there will be plenty of ways in which the family will build a good future life that simply will not include her. Not in a punishing way from your end, just bc that is how life tends to work as an adult when we choose a different path for ourselves....we tend not to be able to have our cake and eat it for very long 

Plan for your holiday on the silent assumption that your wife won’t go. Why? Bc, if she follows the MLC playbook, there might be a lot of flip flopping from her between now and then. Easier to plan for what is not ideal from your POV and be hopefully pleasantly surprised if she joins you and is pleasant to be on holiday with  Tbh I would not even mention it again to her unless she raises it with you.....just go about your life and start looking forward to the fun that you and your girls will have.

[MadLuv]

I don’t have much to add, but that for me what finally helped with the anxiety of it all was to not look back or forward. Just dealing with the now. If you just try and stay in the now it does help with some of that anxiety of the situation and the uncertainty and the craziness of it all. Your doing so well and no matter how you feel at any given moment just know that it will continue to get better for you and your emotions in time.

[xyzcf]

On a positive not, I went for a run this morning as I was really struggling with my emotions and that has somewhat helped. I have also had a good cry writing this post.  Thank you all for your support.

P.S sorry if I have repeated or ranted.  I still don't feel myself at the moment but I am sure I will get there

You don't have to worry about repeating or ranting. This is a safe place to say how you are feeling and you need not "pretend" at all. I am fortunate to have HS members who live in my city and we used to get together frequently which was very helpful.

Crying is our body's way of dealing with grief. I wold be more concerned if you could not cry.

The running brought me back to something that I discovered, because I could not seem to turn off my thoughts about him and what had happened, it was important to have a "break" where my mind could be empty....I discovered golf..because when I'd walk up to hit the ball, my focus was only on that moment...as madluv said...staying in the present. Recognizing those moments that are "positive" such as how you felt after running allows you to identify where your nervous system is at...you stated something that shows that you are very aware:

I still don't feel myself at the moment but I am sure I will get there

I "lost" the person I was comfortable with, xyzcf disappeared and for a long time I did not recognize her if that makes sense..eventually, she did emerge again..different, however recognizable once more....not feeling "myself" was quite disturbing.

I think my despair comes from thinking about my children's future.  It is silly really as I know I have the love, motivation and agency to do whatever I possibly can to give them all that I can give them, however it still breaks my heart how my W is with them. 

On top of your own loss of a partner and lover, best friend you are dealing with how this will affect your children, and rightly so....we do not want anything to hurt them, and the lack of love from a parent is damaging. The LBSer is in the middle...trying to deal with their own feelings of grief and sadness, losing the "family" that once was as well as trying to help the little ones...it is exhausting and our fears for them add to our distress.

I will never understand why my husband would prefer the life that he is living to the family and love that we had together. For me, this small family of three was worth fighting for, I would protect it from any harm.......he totally turned his back, not only on me, but on our precious daughter. This is true for MLCers, you will read it over and over again...and there is nothing that you can do.

It is good that you made plans for July and good that you told her. She may vacillate back and forth, may even tell you she will come and back out at the last minute...be prepared for that.

There is a wealth of information here and the many stories will give you some idea what to expect as well as confirm to you that this crisis is real and similar in many cases. Every family and every situation is different. There really isn't a right or wrong way to go through this because actually, in spite of what we think, nothing that we do matters to them and their journey.

Follow you intuition, continue to do what is right for you and your family and right for the person that you are.

[zartheit]

Just dropping by to say that your resilience in the immediate aftermath of having your world detonated is incredibly impressive to me. It may not feel like you're strong now but sometime soon I trust you will. My own situation had me completely melted, just a skin balloon containing the liquefied ingredients of a human being, and I didn't turn a corner until after she moved out.

In an attempt to build trust in my belief that you'll regain that inner strength soon enough, I can share that I remember feeling completely unknown to myself. I had no clue who I was, what I was doing, what I wanted. I just knew that I was hurting and frightened. I was frightened beyond comprehension. I had many people tell me that it would all come with time, but I genuinely did not believe them. I'm happy to say that they were correct. When I "found" myself the first time it was anti-climactic. It felt like playing peekaboo with a baby. I simply opened my eyes. I've had a number of more "momentous" discoveries since, but I like to keep in mind that it need not be so grand.

Seriously, your whole approach has me nodding my head. You are keeping it together phenomenally well. From my perspective, whatever you're doing is setting you up quite nicely.

[xyzcf]

zartheit stated:

In an attempt to build trust in my belief that you'll regain that inner strength soon enough, I can share that I remember feeling completely unknown to myself. I had no clue who I was, what I was doing, what I wanted. I just knew that I was hurting and frightened. I was frightened beyond comprehension.

Very well said. Thanks for sharing how deeply you were affected.

Recently I had friends visit who I have known for over 40 years. They also knew us as a couple. My friend made a statement that I found quite shocking. I had visited them after BD, she said to me "you were terrified of him".

35 years together with my best friend and she was right...because we don't know what they might do next, because it hurts so deeply and although I wasn't physically terrified of him, I certainly was terrified but what he was doing and how that affected me.

Honestly, I was a pretty normal individual before this happened, good childhood, no major trauma, happy marriage....I even experienced two episodes of dissociation over the years so don't negate how severe this can affect us.

The other side is though that we do come through it...we are actually amazingly resilient.

[MadLuv]

Agree!! I have many life long friends that have recently said, “
The old madluv is back, we missed her” I also hadn’t not even realized that I had lost myself. My fun to be around self!! It is good to feel that seeping back slowly but surely!!

[HeavenlyFocus]

I wanted to share my experience as it parallels so much what you are doing through.  My XW during the months before and after BD hardly did anything.  It was heartbreaking as my oldest daughter didn’t feel she was loved by her Mom.

My XW eventually moved out and has been in replay the past two years.  The good news is that she has slowly started to become the Mom that she used to be.   I have hope that this progress will continue so my kids will have the mother they deserve.

What has really helped me is first making sure my girls have the stability they need.   There have been moments of pure joy when we have a special trip away or just a normal night hanging out watching a movie and ordering a pizza.  I live for those evenings and it is enough for me.

I go to bed at night at peace knowing I am being the best father for them.  As for dealing with your W, it will get easier in time as you let her go on her journey.  Acceptance was hard at first and I frantically read every thread on here looking for answers.  Now, I have accepted this is her crises and it has nothing to do with our marriage.

Be good to yourself and keep loving your kids.  It will get easier in time.

HF

[Biscuit]

Great advice from HF

After 14 months my W has also shown signs of becoming a slightly more stable force in our chidrens lives too.

[freefall2flight]

Thank you xyzcf,

I used to be scared to cry (man thing maybe lol) but now I just go somewhere and let it out.  It does help.

Funnily enough I had been thinking of golf recently as it is always something I wanted to pursue and there is a driving range close by.

I did feel tremendously lost and still do at times.  Sometimes for a few hours and sometimes for days, almost like being adrift at sea.  But then at other times I feel sure and steadfast of my goal and plan.  My children do help alot with this.

Zartheit

Thank you for your kind words and compliments.  I too sometimes feel like an empty shell and it is like I am going through the motions of life.  I think you have it right to appreciate the little wins so to speak.


MadLuv

It is great to hear that you are getting back to yourself.  I bet that felt so amazing to hear that from your friends.

HF

It is so stranger to see our S going through these scripts like different actors in remakes of the same screenplay.  Sadly even if the MLCer has seen the movie before I guess they would not even notice.  I have a very close family friend going through the same thing in parallel albeit 4 months ahead of me.  She left the house and moved in the with A within 4 weeks of BD.  I have not shared my situation with my friend as he is currently on his own journey however I am in awe of how well he is doing being the main CG for his children without any of the info I have.  I see my role to support him through his journey and I feel good about not burdening him with my life too.  My wife saw the BD of my friends wife and voiced her disapproval yet is acting in the same movie herself now.

You know what it is the simple things like pizza and movies that mean the most to me.  In fact my new routine with my Ds before school is my favourite part of the day, we have so much fun, laughter and learning it is really enjoyable.

Biscuit

That is my main hope that W will see to be the mother she used to be.  Especially given how much resentment she has for her own Mum given how she acted and abandoned my W.  It is painful to see history repeating and my W losing her own values.

Thanks all

FF2F

[freefall2flight]

So W has been monstering a bit the last few days about insane things, trying to suck me into "non-arguments" e.g arguing the pans she didn't clean after she make a load of cheese based pastries were in fact covered in chicken and it was my fault somehow?  She could plainly see the melted strings of cheese all over the pans. I did manage to exit reasonably that fast.  I only got sucked in 3 out of 10.  I need to do better though!

I was a bit mischievous when her friend came over.  Her friend needed the toilet but my girls were cleaning their teeth so I said to my wife let her use the garage toilet (the garage is my wife's pity pit).  She said no, it is locked. To which is cheerily said "don't worry, I will unlock it for her."  My W snapped not to do that.  I assume the garage is a complete state still and she was fearful of she 'sensible friend' peeking behind the curtain.

Last night I did broach about the holiday I had booked with my W after the girls went bed. I timed it just before I went out GAL for the evening as I wanted to give her space to digest.  I announced in a 'sky is blue fashion' that I had booked a holiday for the period whilst my parents are away in July this year (my Mum looks after the girls in the summer at times whilst we are at work).  I said I had booked a 3 bedroom accommodation as I wanted to give her the choice to come with us.  She became very fidgety, rubbing her face and hair. and said 'okkkkk'  I then added I thought it was important for the girls to have a holiday to look forward too, especially since D6 had been taking with her friends about their plans and had been questioning what we were doing.  I concluded by saying I think the girls need a holiday and then said 'heck' I need a holiday too and I am sure you do too (to the W).  At this point she "yes butted" me to which I did interrupt her to say you don't need to decide now and that you have time to go away and think about the choice you want to make.  I then said by and left for my activity.

Well after just over a day I got a message in reply to this.  I has assumed she would talk to her sensible friend about this one.  But I didn't get a response until she went to work where the 'bad influence' friend is.  However it is only speculation what may have driven her to respond.  To be honest I am surprised she got back to me.

She messaged this morning (weirdly very formally which is not like the W at all) to say she would 'not be attending the holiday.'  She went on to say she was surprised and annoyed I had booked something without talking to her first (I never get the chance and she avoids me most of the time and she hates questions with her ADHD too!).  She said she wanted the girls to have a holiday but since it was joint money she felt I was wrong by not consulting her and she would always discuss taking the girls away on holiday with me first if she had any plans.  But then proceeded to say she had plans to take the girls on holiday!

I did panic a bit but then rationalised this was an anger/emotional response and not a 'real' response as such (I mean i understand she may mean it at this moment) so I responded with some facts:

"I am sorry that you feel this way....."

- I told her I did not say I was paying for the holiday from joint money and acknowledge it would be unfair to do this without discussing with her
- I told her I paid the deposit from my account and so nothing was set in stone
- I reiterated I had booked an extra room to give her space if she choose to come and said I had wanted to give her the choice to come (i.e not excluding her)
- I explained my motivation was as my eldest D had talked with her friends at school about holidays and I thought it important to give her something to look forward to
- I said it was up to my W what she did with her summer and 'I was sure' that whatever decision she makes in based on what she considers is best for the girls wellbeing and happiness
- I said if she ever wanted to talk about anything (inc. the holiday) I was always here to listen
- I then wished her a good rest of the day

I am hoping responded well  I do feel a bit more disconnected today after speaking to my brother last night.  What will be will be I guess.

[MadLuv]

Way to keep a level head on your response freefall. You acknowledged her feelings ( right or wrong ) and answered her complaints and kept the door ajar for her to change her mind!!

[Treasur]

My take is slightly different. Imho a bit too much explaining on your part.
A ‘thank you for letting me know’ and a clarification that you have/will be paying for the holiday from your funds (if that is the case) would have been quite sufficient. (And what is your plan for how finances are going to work from here on?)
From my POV, you asked, she said no and then added a bit of monstering about how she didn’t like it and/or how you did it. With a side order of yah boo sucks about (secretly lol) planning to take them on holiday herself.

Instead you apologised (what were you actually apologising for?), reiterated the offer she’d already said no to, defended/explained why you wanted to take your kids on holiday and invited her, gave her a little side snark about being ‘sure’ she is making the kids happiness a priority, kept an element of up in the air limbo about it by saying you are there to listen if she wants to talk, end.

Do you see the difference?
Or how your wife views ‘separation’ as ‘I do what I want like a free single Me and you have to ask my permission as if we were still a married We.’? Which is a bit shockingly entitled and unfair but pretty common here.

Which response seems more constructive and practical and detached from your POV?
Don’t worry....it gets easier to step away from the rollercoaster, hers and yours lol, with practice.

On a side note, it sounds as if your wife is already thinking about her money vs our money. It might be wise, perhaps with a little legal advice, to separate some things out financially a little more? If only to avoid future confusion about what ‘separated’ actually looks like 

[Biscuit]

I also had a holiday thing come up with W a few months back.... very similar.... I had discussed booking something with W's best friends family (an annual event) ...... she monstered how dare you etc etc, all the usual bull. I had only discussed it mind, not booked it.
Then it turns out she had already booked a holiday with my best friends family (another annual event) without consulting me!

The double standards are literally gobsmacking - you'll get used to it and then expect it and then later maybe when you get anything but double standards it's a welcome surprise!

[xyzcf]

I am hoping responded well  I do feel a bit more disconnected today after speaking to my brother last night.  What will be will be I guess.

Your responses to her were fine. You stated your thoughts about this clearly and without engaging in "monster"..BRAVO!!!

She messaged this morning (weirdly very formally which is not like the W at all) to say she would 'not be attending the holiday.'

Sounds like a young child stamping their feet.  You cannot put your life or the life of your children on hold because she is in crisis. Holiday plans need to be arranged, places booked or there might not be any accommodations available. So good for you to be proactive about planning ahead.

As HF and Biscuit have written, these times with your children are precious...you cannot get these years back and your wife's crisis cannot be allowed to interfere with your family time with your kids...and their time to have some enjoyable and fun times.

She is the one missing out..but she will not see it that way...and she may lash out again at you for making plans "without her permission"....well she isn't asking your permission for her outings.....you do not need to ask for hers.

[freefall2flight]

Thanks ML and T for your input.

@Treasur......

I am already reaping the negative response from my wife! Doh, I have a lot to learn.

You are right.  W has replied already!  I think I poked the monster! (silly me!)

- She is discounted the money thing now (couldn't expect her to acknowledge she made incorrect assumptions).
- The girls are 'always' her number one priority (haha I guess it is usual for MLCer to believe this even though they do not really interact with their children)
- She did not like my use of 'consequences' and is now saying I am accusing her of cheating or doing something bad
- Apparently it is unfortunate but she can't help how she feels, she has felt like this for soooooo long and now has the "courage" to do something (again, W still at home in the garage, withdrawing from children, friends and family with a littel high energy partying in between)
- It's not easy to break up a family but better to do that than be unhappy
- She understands I disagree but doesn't want me to hold that against her.

I need to pause I think before replying in future and really think about my response as like you suggest Treasur to ensure I am actually being detached.

Before I saw your message I did respond.....  (I need to sit on my hands!)

I did try an validate her feelings that I am sorry that she had no option but to break up the family (doh - reading this back I realise this was stupid!) and feels she couldn't put her feelings aside for a short break with the girls (double doh! Why did I write this.  Actually, I know the answer, I wrote emotively and not smartly)

I think the only positive thing I did was to acknowledge she must do what she feels is best and as must I.  I then acknowledged she is unhappy and wants to leave and again said I was here if needed.

I really need to get better at this.  I thought I was validating but I think I have overdone it.  I think I am still confused by her adamantly repeating the relationship being over yet still wallowing at home without offering any clue to her plan for the future.  I understand that part is usual as they don't know themselves.  They see:

Re-written Past = Bad
....
Future = Guarenteed sunshine and rainbows

However they are missing how they are going to get there.  Unfortunately my trigger is my girls lives are in the middle, in the dots and whatever choices we make as 'adults' impacts them and is something those time little girls have no choice about themselves.

Feeling frustrated 

[freefall2flight]

@biscuit @xyxcf

It is very confusing.  I am trying to constantly examine my motive behind things.

My driving force for the holiday is make make memories for the girls.  It broke my heart when D6 was sad we didn't have any plans for Easter when all her friends were doing things.  They are only small and they are happy with the tiniest of gestures, even a trip to the local park. I promosed myslef I would not let this happen for their summer.

It makes me so angry that I am being held accountable for doing something for the girls and W is making it about her (she can't stand to be around me it appears and can't put these feelings aside for her children). It makes you second guess your motives. However like many of you have said, the girls deserve good memories, they are only children once and in a blink of an eye they will be all grown up.  Funnily enough my wife used to worry about the girls growing up too fast and missing out.  Now Evil-Wife Clone is facilitating this and trying to make me feel bad about it.

I am starting to feel angry today.  Glad I am going gym in a bit.

Thank you for your support, it really is appreciated. 

[xyzcf]

It is very confusing.  I am trying to constantly examine my motive behind things.

This is such a messed up way of living, that we cannot talk to our spouses the way we once did, figure out stuff together, make plans for the family....very confusing.

I really don't think that anything we say or do will make a difference in their crisis...unless perhaps you shut her out of your life and refuse to have any communication with her....that to me is not the best answer.

Before their crisis, I don't think we had to examine our "motive" ...we just lived...and so examining every thought/word/action is exhausting and to me kind of shifts some kind of blame of the LBSer and puts expectations on the LBSer to be someone that they are not.

You stated "I need to get better at this" and you will...believe me, you will find the right balance between maintaining the contact necessary with her because of the children but also so you can gradually detach as you see her crisis being something that you cannot control.

Feeling angry, sad, discouraged, emotional, up and down.....all exhausting.

All of this takes "time"...that dreaded word and it takes far more time than we have patience for when we are used to solving problems in a timely fashion.

Everything that you are feeling is your body's way of processing the unthinkable..baby steps will get you to the next stage of acceptance.

Going to the gym is a good way to increase the feel good endorphins and help to deal with the tremendous stress you are under.

[Treasur]

I’m sorry, free...but cut yourself some slack, this is a weird s$itshow your wife has created and you are very early in, you’re learning what path seems right for you and we all learn through trial and error usually 

Things that might help?
What we call the rule of 3 here....3 mins/hours/weeks as appropriate in responding to this stuff gives you time to pause and respond rather than react. Just take your time.
As a broad rule, LBS tend to lose out the more we say rather than the less, and the more any discussion about anything becomes a relationship discussion. But it feels a bit weird and even rude to be saying so little or even just ignoring ranting texts, doesn’t it? See Rule of 3 above ^^^^ and pause to consider...is this a life threatening emergency that requires an immediate response? Am I actually being asked a question that requires a response? How interested is the other person really in my opinion? What am I honestly trying to achieve in any response? That tends to winnow out quite a lot 
Validation is more like acknowledging that someone feels how they feel and that you have heard them. But it is tricky to do when you have an emotional investment or when someone is blaming you for things that are not your responsibility - another reason to use less words tbh. So from my read, her reply was essentially restating that this is how she feels, that she is doing what she wants, that she ‘has no choice’  but doesn’t want you to judge her poorly for it....(hint....you are allowed to feel however you feel regardless of whether she likes it or not lol).....I don’t see a question, so I would have not replied, or just said something like ok, thanks for clarifying.

Let me offer you a simpler take on what is confusing you, the whole separated ‘wife in the garage’ thing......
You are trying to make sense out of non sense from your POV. Bc it doesn’t make sense to you. But it makes some kind of sense to her until/unless she does something different.

As a broad sweep, we humans - including  tend to take action to get something we want or avoid something we don’t want. And we usually take the path that is personally easiest for us towards that. So, even if it makes no sense to you, what do you think your wife in the garage might be getting or avoiding by doing what she is doing in the way she is doing it? And which bits of that are you prepared to enable bc it suits whatever you are currently trying to get or avoid, and which bits are you not? Which bits are you ok to normalise about this separated wife/not wife in the garage or childcare or finances or holidays or family dinners or text messaging etc etc and which are you not? Bc you have choices too.....

Fwiw anger or frustration is actually a useful gift....at a simple level, it tells you that some kind of personal boundary line is being ignored or trodden on. Again, respond rather than react lol, so good idea to work it out at the gym...but pause to consider what that anger is really about. One can’t control others feelings or actions, evil clone or not  , but we can control our own boundary lines of what we invite or accept. ....and particularly with any kind of in house separation, working out what yourbown boundaries are and how to respond when/if others don’t respect them can be sanity saving and useful imho. So, what are yours?

[freefall2flight]

Potentially landed with one of the truth darts on the Evil-W earlier about the girls.  She came home from school run and is taking them out to the park.  She never does this! It is the longest I have seen her without her phone too! Whole 6 minutes, a new PB I think.

Right, thank you all for your moral support today, so much wisdom in all of your words. My only tear was of anger and I am going to burn that off at the gym before eating some unhealthy calories with a great beer. Thank you.

[Treasur]

Enjoy your well-deserved beer, free 

[JohnnyBravo]

Hi, FreeFall

Sorry to see you here, but as you've already discovered, you found the place for support.

I really need to get better at this. 

Don't be too hard on yourself... We all do the best we can with these lousy circumstances. We all have ups and downs with progress, but in the grand scheme of things/longer timeline, we climb upwards.

Feeling frustrated 

Yep... At my workplace, we have a corporate culture of referring to problems as "opportunities." And we all think it's pretty funny. "We're having a problem with..., er, we found a NEW OPPORTUNITY..."

Take care,

JB

[MadLuv]

FF- you can over think this all to your demise. I think it is always good to step away and calm the nerves as they do also poke our bear before you respond, so you dont react.  You will continue to get feedback and you will also learn by what you get back from your wife and your interactions what is working and what isnt and to be honest that also keeps changing. So, you do your best. You go with your gut and you have to be true to yourself on what your comfortable with. You are doing incredibly well so early on.

[forthetrees]

Been following along. Is it possible that at times you have the intention of communicating in a way to make her look bad as a mom? I get it- you´re broken and pissed and she´s hurting your kids. The thing is, she doesn´t need any assistance in looking bad- she´s taking the master class in that so you don´t have to go against your core values to point it out. If you can get to the point of having no expectations of her fulfilling the role of a co-parent, you will be able to have sanity and plan without seeking her input. Odds are that her presence on your vacation would make it stressful vs. relaxing. She´s likely doing you a favor by opting out. At this point you are expecting a fish to climb a tree, ain´t gonna happen.

[freefall2flight]

Thanks xyzcf and treasur,

It is so weird at the moment. Every time I feel like the spin is slowing it just speeds up.  This tells me I have not yet detached.

What I find strange is at times I 'feel' am going against my 'values.' I am naturally a 'helper and fixer,' although I am aware at time this is 'controlling' behaviour.  I have been working on that however in the current situation I get confused between if I am controlling, fixing or just being kind.  I am getting better at identifying these so to speak, the easy ones being 'push' behaviours like questions or asks.  I have also tried not to 'throw' cushions down for my wife as this is something my IC identified I have done for the whole 17 years of our relationship to stop her from hurting herself. Let her f-up so to speak. My current rule of thumb is if I am doing something for the girls and me (e.g making a cup of tea), as long as my W has not explicitly stated that she does not want me to do this then I make her one.  Up to her if she drinks it.  Is that wise?

The trickiest is when something needs doing.  e.g I have been so busy this week with work, exercise, taking care of the girls and GAL in between I have not had time to do the shopping.  I have done the list and taking the advise from last week I had no expectation W would do it.  She did bring it up with a lame excuse which I did not even react to other than "ok, no worries." I planned to squeeze it in today as we are like Old Mother Hubbard.  So after getting up early and sorting the girls and cleaning our whole downstairs (thankful UK houses are much smaller than US ones lol), I took the girls swimming, did more tidying and make brunch.  I had obliged my wife's request to change my plans so she could go gym as she missed yesterday. 

I would previously have contested this but it really makes no odds if I went morning or afternoon as it does not impact my time with the girls. Otherwise if I had said no, 1) it would have gone against my values of being accommodating and 2) I would have felt like I was 'controlling.' Again, not sure if this was wise?

So after a busy morning for me and the girls and the W doing her own thing (with a small bit of laundry - her only chore she does at the moment) she asked if I was going to take my daughter to her class and do the shopping.  As with everything else she communicates, she did not explicitly 'ask' but but in a round about way (she often talking in riddles or very very quiet or mumbled, I often cannot hear her which then causes monster as I frequently have to ask her to repeat herself. As side note, do others find that MLCer communicate in whispers or mumbles?).  I hate this as it causes so much confusion and usually ends up wit her getting annoyed/monstering as I ask questions to clarify.  In this instance I did not want to do the drop oof and the shopping as I have work I need to do.  I had already accommodated this morning, done a massive amount of cleaning (not that I complain about that - I am a man who loves cleaning :-D) and made food and spent lots of time with the girls. I needed to do the work for me as I am on a deadline.  In this madness I feel I am no longer able to communicate my needs without things escalating. I just sound like a bumbling fool.

@JB I really like your outlook:

Yep... At my workplace, we have a corporate culture of referring to problems as "opportunities." And we all think it's pretty funny. "We're having a problem with..., er, we found a NEW OPPORTUNITY..."

haha, I actually used this in a client meeting yesterday when they said "ff2f, we have so many problems in our way."

@ML great advice.  I think sometimes we read/listen/watch so much that sometimes we also forget to listen to our gut too!

@ftt again, I think you are correct , sometimes I do let my emotions get the better of me and 'react' rather than response as treasur said.  I am a perfectionist (and not in a good way) and so each time I mess up and let anger get the better of me and try and be a martyr or show my W up I am hugely disappointed in myself.  However I guess this is part of the journey especially identifying when we don't live up to our own values. I get angry at her behaviour when I think it will impact the girls.  However I think at times I 'fortune tell' and often find the future doesn't always pan out exactly as expected.  Thinking about it, expecting the unexpected doesn't always have to be expecting the negative.

I felt somewhat vexed this morning as my wife is taking the girls out this afternoon so I can do my work (that's a positive, not complaining about that bit!) however my frustration is that she is taking the girls to the 'bad influencer' female friend.  No good seems to come from when she is around her. I am glad she is taking the girls out but this woman has no children of my girls age just a dog. I am just trying to look on the positives of at least the W is out wife the girls.

P.S I had to Google fish climbing a tree as I really want to believe there are some.  There is one :-D albeit rare.

Thanks again all

[Treasur]

had to Google fish climbing a tree as I really want to believe there are some.  There is one :-D albeit rare.

Well, that made me chuckle....who knew? 
On a more sober note, probably about the same hit rate for healthy marriages surviving this kind of a s$itstorm....not impossible, but rare. I appreciate that’s a tough message for any LBS here but what I hope is helpful about it s that it encourages you to keep focusing on your side of the street and let go of what you can’t control. Like your wife’s visiting the not so appealing friend, you might prefer otherwise but - unless your kids safety is at risk - you can’t control that so one learns to accept certain things.

I did not have an in-house separation in my situation and it sounds rather difficult to navigate, particularly as a parent. I have read others here talk about changing their lens to treat their spouse more like an acquaintance they don’t know so well or a visiting distant cousin perhaps. I can see that it requires almost creating a new operating system from scratch and a lot of trial and doubtless error. Would you make tea for the distant cousin if you were making one anyway? Maybe. Would you change your schedule bc they missed the gym the previous day? Maybe not, idk.

I don’t know if muttering or whispering are common. I do know that most of us experienced some kind of passive-aggressive indirectness or word salad  communication when you leave a conversation, even about something very simple, scratching one’s head at being no clearer than you started. Putting to one side the reasons for that, I think what happens naturally over a period of time - even if it feels pretty weird  - is one stops asking, stops looking for clarity from them and starts informing them of plans that are not contingent on them in any way. What’s the difference? Well, take the grocery shopping as an example.....you make a grocery shopping/cooking plan for the week that fits your/your kids needs, tell your wife to let you know by x time if she needs anything added to the list and if she is intending to eat with you....if she misses that deadline, you shop and cook for three and she takes pot luck or makes her own arrangements. She’s an adult, unlikely to starve  Or you cook for four and she can show up at dinner time or not and eat what you’ve cooked or not. You inform rather than ask.....without getting sucked into big defence or any explanation other than that, in the circumstances, this is what will work best for you.

Why don’t we do that? Well, a bunch of reasons depending on individual  LBS - so pick the ones that ring true for you lol. We are afraid of more conflict if they throw a tantrum about it, we are afraid of pushing them away further. We are trying to create some kind of ‘everything is ok and normal really’ for our kids. We think if we are nice they will stop being horrid or change their minds about our value. We believe something is our fault and we can fix it by doing x or y. We fear making things worse bc we hope that this - whatever this is - will blow over if we just keep our heads down.

The common thread tbh is fear.
So changing how we behave to navigate this s$itshow usually requires most of us to get quite honest with ourselves about what we fear most. And how we live with that and how much denial we are in about the extent to which what we fear is already happening. Which is why most of us ‘fortune tell’ too tbh....it’s a pretty normal trauma response, isn’t it, trying to make the monster under the bed not real or that it will be gone by morning?

What are you most afraid of, my friend?
And how much or how little of that is already happening?
And how much or how little of it can you directly control?
You don’t need to answer here, but you might find it useful to muse on this.
Most of us vets found that most of what we feared most did actually happen. Sometimes it got much worse before it got better in ways that were previously unimaginable tbh. Yet most of us, albeit with some significant dents, DID survive those things happening and did find some peace tbh in letting go of trying to control things that were simply out of our hands. But it is not an easy process and I imagine harder with a live-in wife/not wife.

In some ways, the big underpinning question about how you do day to day life may rest on how you describe the situation to yourself....are you a married husband just with a awol wife in the annex? Are you separated? Or something else? And what does that mean to you? Bc how you answer that question at the moment may well give you a guide for what you feel is appropriate to say yes and no to, or what you are prepared to offer or expect.

Reading between the lines of what you posted, there is a book often recommended here called No More Mr Nice Guy. Have you read it? I found myself wondering if it might be helpful. In essence, the author suggests that sometimes ‘Nice Guys’ are ‘nice’ for less shiny lovely reasons than we think  .....that unconsciously they are ‘nice’ bc they see it as their half of a kind of deal or psychological contract, that if they are ‘nice’ then they will get x or y back in return. And they can be rather manipulative or controlling or resentful if that’s not how it plays out. What do you see as the difference between being nice and good, say? How nice are you when no one is there to see it and how does being nice make you feel? In other words, how truly Nice is your Nice?  I know quite a few male LBS have found it a thought-provoking read!

[xyzcf]

It is pretty overwhelming having to take care of everything, cleaning, groceries, cooking and not being able to count on our partner to do their fair share. When you mentioned her speaking in low tones or mumbling and then getting angry if she had to repeat herself, that would send me off centered ( as so much of what they do does) because it's no longer clear what to expect...and not knowing if you can ask her or not or what kind of response you will get creates anxiety and confusion for us.

Ursa uses a phrase...trying to understand them is "like attempting to taste the color green."

There are many different "views" on living with an MLCer and it's more complicated when there are children involved. How does one keep the "peace" in this type of living arrangement? How does one be oneself (in your case kindness by offering her tea that you and the girls are having) without feeling like somehow you are being used?

I don't think there is any benefit in being "unkind"..that feels too much to me like punishment or changing who I am to be like they have become.

I did not have a live in MLCer so fortunately didn't have to deal with him on a daily basis.
One of our past members here, had a 5 and 7 year old when BD struck. Her husband moved into their basement (for 7 years or so before he moved out). He was not "there" other than physically and certainly did not help with the house or the kids, most of the time he did not show up for their school events or participate in holiday events. He just lived his life as though they did not exist. It was very difficult for her.

Every time I feel like the spin is slowing it just speeds up.  This tells me I have not yet detached.

Although we can tell ourselves to "detach", it isn't something that happens just because we say it is so. Years together do not easily get erased..and this whole situation was not of our choosing. The physical stuff is our body's response to what is perceived as "danger".

My therapist specializes in mind/body responses. A very helpful tool that she used was how the fight/flight/freeze response affects us....polyvagal nervous system responses. This chart shows how our bodies fluctuate and how it also will try and return us to a "green zone". If we stay in the red or blue zone for too long, it can affect our health.

https://lissarankin.com/polyvagal-theory-interoception-a-neuroscience-understanding-of-attachment-trauma/

Over time, we can learn how to calm our nervous system so it returns to a calmer state more easily. How your body reacts to what is happening with your wife's crisis is not always something that we can immediately "detach" from..but we can learn how to do so.

However, even then...there are still things in our subconscious that affects us. I had a dream last night that included my husband, my deceased father and my deceased mother...husband left over 13 years ago, mum died 13 years ago, dad died 23 years ago yet still I had a dream involving all three of them. Dreams such as this upset me a bit still, but I cannot control what I dream about...and sometimes, especially as we are learning to deal with their crisis, our nervous system reacts in ways that cause us to feel quite off centered.

In this madness I feel I am no longer able to communicate my needs without things escalating. I just sound like a bumbling fool.

I am nodding my head..it seemed like we did not speak the same language anymore and that where we once could complete one another's sentences, I did not have a clue now what to expect from him...he lived so far away and we had limited contact so it was easier than seeing this person daily and then being treated in such a different way then what once was.

You are doing well. Perhaps some things will need to slide a bit regarding keeping the house clean. Since COVID in the US we can order groceries and either have them delivered or just pick them up outside the store...not something I found useful but you may need to be creative in figuring out how to manage because doing everything is going to burn you out....for your own well being and that of your children, you will learn what things are important and what to let go of concerning all the chores..because your wife probably is not going to be a great help for any of it, including taking care of the girls.

[freefall2flight]

@treasur

Fear is certainly something which has plagued me and not just since BD in Jan of this year.  In fact I stated in both my IC and our MC sessions how on reflection I was scared.  Scared all the time.  Of everything (of exactly or specifically, I could not say of what).  I used to have a very confident persona and personality. I still wear that mask often, so much so I have questioned whether that is my real face. Ever.

Interestingly I am a type one on the Enneagram test and accordingly my basic fear is "Of being corrupt/evil, defective.  When I read this after my revelation of being frightened all the time it is as if the top of my skull popped off. I don't think I have ever reflected so deep and it was scary.  However at the same time liberating and I am still in that journey of discovery myself.

I have questioned myself recently why I do things as I will often help others to the detriment of myself (and sometimes my family) so although I do try and be 'nice' even when others are around, it still doesn't indicate whether my motives are noble or selfish. I think it is very hard to do a truly selfless act without the motivation becoming transactional in some way. I don't feel I ever expect a physical or monetary transaction in return but if I were to truly dig deep I think I am motivated by being liked/appreciated. It is all very confusing though and I can tie my brain in knots.  But I think this is all important work regardless of the outcome of my relationship.  I have recently become interested in Hinduism, for some reason I have been drawn to their philosophies, especially around Karma, cyclical time and world ages (it is their belief that we are currently in Kali Yuga - the fourth and worst age - it is believed to be the present age, which is full of conflict and sin before destruction of the universe).

I think my biggest fear at the moment is the unknown.  Hopefully my own journey will help to tame that fear in time.

@xyzf

I really do like that phrase

Ursa uses a phrase...trying to understand them is "like attempting to taste the color green."

I think it does describe the situation perfectly.

Keeping the peace is what I strive for at the moment and does seem a find balance.  I feel my W is actually in a parallel way trying to do the same e.g don't enjoy natural moments with the girls and I too much and keep up the anger without being in a full blown rage all the time.  It must be so tiring for her.

Thank you for the link on polyvagal nervous system responses, I will have a read as this tickles the scientist in me.

Sorry to hear about your dream.  I have always had vivid dream and as far as I can remember they used to rock me to my core. I can still recall dreams from when I was 5 years old! Isn't the brain fascinating!?

I believe thinking outside the box and creativity in living forward is the key

Thank you both for your input.

[freefall2flight]

A bit of journaling :-D

Observation, W has come back from grocery shopping having overspent our available budget by 50% (I didn't even mention it as I would have previously -  at this rate there will be no money left for groceries in a week or two but that will be her responsibility to resolve now - how she will cope budgeting on her own I really don't know).

She also bought a crazy amount of protein supplements and is now in a cake frenzy in line with her current baking obsession (maybe ADHD hyperfocus or avoidance?). She is making cakes for the bad influencer woman.

I also noticed W had over 20 bottles of shampoo when I went to do the laundry the other day! Very strange behaviour.  Probably to keep her new blonde hair I guess.  I saw an old picture of W and realised what lovely brown hair she used to have until she nuked it with bleach.  In a way it helps me build a visual distinction between W and Evil-W.  She doesn't look like my W at the moment. Why do MLCers tamper with their looks so much?  My W is very naturally attractive and had lovely sparkly eyes.  Now they are hollow and empty. So sad :-(

Oh well, I feel positive this afternoon anyway. A productive morning I think is good for the soul, working hard this afternoon and hopefully some family time this evening where hopefully the real W will make an appearance for 60 minutes!

[Nas]

I think somewhere there must be a cake through line for MLC. My former husband funneled close to 6 figures from me to invest in his OW’s cake decorating business, which turned out to be some version of a pyramid scheme. I believe the OW, who at the time was married with three children, was in the midst of her own MLC (not that it matters to the outcome).

I just like to throw in a word of caution on the “bad influencers.”
Yes, these people do often start spending all their time with questionable people. But your wife is a grown adult woman with a fully formed frontal lobe. There’s only so far a grown adult can be influenced. At a certain point we do have to accept that they are making their own decisions to spend time with these people and partake in the same activities and lines of thinking.

For comparison purposes: I am currently in an incredibly difficult and unfixable set of circumstances due to choices I had to make over the past few years resulting from dealing with my former husband’s choices, the resultant reawakening of old trauma and my own diagnosis of cancer, among other things. I didn’t get to choose the circumstances I was in, and there is an argument to be made that my choices were fewer and somewhat forced due to circumstances. Nevertheless, here I am with the results of those choices I made that I can’t escape. And I was not hurting anyone else, I was not selfishly stealing and cheating on and lying to and gaslighting and manipulating anyone else. I was just (barely) surviving. But I have to accept responsibility for my choices in dire circumstances, and the same should be true for MLCer’s who selfishly make choices that harm others, and they make their choices under far less dire circumstances, and often under some pretty ideal circumstances. The “bad influence” people they spend their time with often encourage these choices, often help the MLCer justify these choices, but they are not really the cause of these choices. The MLCers are simply doing the thing they really want to do, the choice that suits themselves best, the choice that gives them instant gratification or the choice that allows them to avoid looking at themselves and the real cause of their inner turmoil.

I guess I say this just to point out that it’s best to not focus on the so-called bad influencer friends. Their role in whatever happens is minimal and not worth your precious time and energy. in the end, your wife will have to be accountable for her actions on her own because unless someone hypnotizes her, put her under a magic spell or kidnaps her and she develops Stockholm syndrome, everything she is doing is her own doing. The friends she keeps around are simply supporting characters in her play that prop her up as the protagonist.

[freefall2flight]

Thank you @nas, some very wise words too and I am sorry to hear about your circumstances. Sending postive thoughts your way.

You are right, what is it sbout cakes lol

Yes, in regard to the bad influencer I am getting better at letting go. In fact before BD she lied to me about my wife's whereabouts e.g my W was in a hotel when she said she was staying at her house. This was all whilst I was trying to locate my W as our youngest D was sick and I had to take her to the Doctors. To be honest, apart from a bit of rage recently I more feel sorry for her. The two people my W surrounds herself with are lonely and sad older women whose own relationships are poor at best and a sham at worst. In fact one of them is having an affair herself!

I too have a choice and I choose to surround myself with postive people who don't blindly agree with me but challenge me and my opinions and to grow myself.

One of my greatest friends I still to this day remember how he challenged my first depression many years ago with such a balanced comment of toughness and love that I still cherish that memory to this day.

[Acorn]

Hi, FF,

I’m sorry your world went topsy turvy. My heart aches for you…  (((((HUGS))))

…..

I regard detachment as one of the most vital components in living life fully and thriving in a situation such as yours. I prioritized detachment after having spent way too much time and energy trying to understand what was going on with my husband. 

May I share what helped me detach from my husband’s crisis?  (Gosh, that was a long time ago!) 

(A bit of background: My husband never left home. He moved into the guest suit and stopped participating in marriage and family life until he more or less resolved the issues that were at the root of his crisis.  ‘The root cause’ was not based on my  speculations/reading tea leaves/psychic power —he shared his thoughts about it with me numerous times.)

Back to what helped me detach:

1. J.A.D.E — Do not Justify, Argue, Defend or Explain anything at all when H fails to converse as a mature, sane and reasonable adult. Listen but keep my lips zipped.

2.  Refrain from making snarky, unkind, preachy or self-righteous comments to H, which can often be construed as ‘truth darts’ in my mind. 

Having said that, I will not silently give him a pass when my dignity is being attacked.   

3.  Avoid analysis paralysis by following my counsellor’s advice: “Don’t over think.  Just live!”

4. Try to see H and the situation holistically.  Resist seeing and explaining his words and actions that do not meet my expectation of ‘normal’ exclusively through the MLC lens.  Humans are not one-dimensional so, step back and consider the whole person and circumstances, not just one facet, ‘crisis.’   Periodic holidays from all information and discussions on MLC are helpful in zooming out of MLC lens. 

5. Every adult is accountable for his/her words and actions. 

5. Try to remember:

“What is the difference between trying to help someone and trying to fix someone?”

The difference is whether they asked for your help, and whether it’s their goals you have in mind — or your own.

There are a lot more but these will do, I think.
…..
I wish you wisdom and resilience.  I think true strength lies in being able to get up each time after being knocked down time and again.

(((((HUIGS)())))

[OffRoad]

I want to second what Acorn said about JADE. it never helps.

I had an 18 month live in. He lied to me, lied about me, stole from me, etc. I had one child in college and one with 2.5 years left in high school. These were my lessons.

Depend on the MLCER for nothing. Let having a spotless house slide and get the groceries yourself or they will purchase personal things out of joint money and it adds up quickly. Tell them you are planning x, y or z and if you want to ask if they'd like to come, fine. Or just make your own plans (S then 15 and I have incredible memories of our trips). Tell them the dates you are doing these things, and don't let them ride roughshod over you, like them making THEIR plans with the kids where they are not likely going to make it back in time for you to leave. Say everything without rancor and as matter of fact as possible.  The words "I see." "I'll have to think about that." "How about that?" "That's interesting" "Cool" "Wow" "Bummer" are your friends.

Saying nothing is powerful. When an MLCER wants to make you the bad guy, "I see" and go elsewhere.

I had to observe my xh as opposed to interact with him. I believe on some level an MLCER knows how screwed up their actions are, and try to project their failings onto the LBS. I was accused of things I'd never done and it felt like he was always trying to make me fly off the handle so I'd be the bad guy.

Most of us were fixers. Most of us aren't anymore. You didn't break her, you cannot fix her   

[freefall2flight]

Thanks Acorn and Off road, sage advice there.

Acorn, a quote from one of your threads really hit home this evening

I think we can all agree that LBS or marriage is not the root cause(issues) of MLC.  It is my view that MLCers are not to be blamed for the presence of issues, either. I don’t know anyone who ordered ‘issues’ as a side dish to life and chose to have MLC.

As much as there was a bit of craziness and monstering which ate into yesterday evening (I proudly did not get sucked in at all - well maybe a 1 out of 10) which continued a bit into this morning we did have some family time this evening which as I have said previously is like watching my "real wife" through a pane of glass. She is trapped in a capsule, completely in view and vulnerable. I can never really communicate with her but much like an exhibit in the zoo she goes about her business being her natural self, just like those animals.

Tonight, I felt sad. Not for me. Not for our girls but truly sad for my wife. I have been sad many times for her recently but this was almost a different lens. Manifesting alongside her depression and anxiety from childhood trauma she self soothes with compulsive hair pulling. She has done this for as long as I have know her but managed to hide it for a good few years.

Tonight I noticed she has pulled out almost all the hair on one side of her head and for a split second I saw and we made eye contact and she quickly covered it up. When I met her eyes, they were her real soulful eyes for a fraction of a second and I felt truly sorrowful for her and felt her pain. It made me want to help or to say something, to offer support or comfort as I have done in the past. It kills me that I know I shouldn't. I just went back to playing the game we were playing with the girls. For a moment I forgot the pain inflicted recently and I strengthened my resolve to stand here for her as I jnow my W is in there somewhere. Prisoner is what they call her right? This has brought tears to my eyes.

[freefall2flight]

It has been a distant few days I guess the best way to describe it.  I had a bit of a 'mini breakdown' I supposed on Monday (cried on and off all day), probably triggered by the sadness I felt on Sunday evening looking in through the glass box to my real W. I need to get back onto the detach course although have been doing a lot of personal reflections too. I think it was a bit of a tough pill to swallow turning the lens back inwards, especially considering the co-dependence I have built over the years.  It made me feel really bad and guilty and then I remember we both had choices and have both contributed.  I still find it hard to deal with that my W can refuse to talk about anything (I have not asked by the way, I have maintained no relationship talk) just thinking back to the last time this came up a few months back when I asked for reasons and I just got nothing.

I guess the difference between the W and I at the moment is I am really trying to work on myself.  My IC has finished for now, I can't afford any more at the moment and have exhausted my works scheme of EAP.  However I do attend some support groups and I have also signed up for CoDA - Co-dependents Anonymous which for some reason really frightens me.  I am pursuing a job opportunity and have really been spending some good quality time with my girls.  I am trying to build my social life back up too and started back an old hobby.  I have really thrown myself into my fitness too.

My wife since the weekend has probably spent less than an hour with the girls, in and out to "live her life".  It is so ironic that for so many years i have been trying to encourage my W to socialise and now she is doing it in an unhealthy way because as she put it 'this is what she wants to do and not me.'  It is a bitter sweet pill as in one way I am happy she is building a social life, however now like this.

My D6 was sad yesterday as when my wife picked her up from childcare my D ran and hugged her.  My W preceded to be glued to her phone and did not notice nor offer any interaction with our D.  Our D just gave up in the end and got in the car.

I also noticed I have been completely cut out from any events or outings with the girls which her family (I still don't believe she has told her family her situation), in fact she is obscuring where she is going with them. QUESTION: I have not asked where my W is going and have not done in months now and just leave her be to do her own thing.  However I feel if my W is taking the girls with her I should be able to know where they are going together.

I don't really use Facebook but did log onto sell some things the other day and noticed she has blocked me from seeing certain things on her feed. I am not interested in Facebook and I ascertain it will only cause me misery to look at it and have things pop up in my feed even though I am not going our of my way to look for things.  I just won't bother even selling on there now and will just not use it.  I will just give things to charity instead.

Finally I noticed my wife has taken money out of one of our joint savings accounts, not a huge amount, probably equivalent to $200 however there was absolutely no reason for her to do so.  I have reasoned with myself not to say anything at this moment, however I will keep an eye on things.

Hope everyone is doing as well as can be.

-ff2f

[xyzcf]

I guess the difference between the W and I at the moment is I am really trying to work on myself. 

In a way, your wife is working on herself. She has left behind her old persona and is actively seeking something new and different, sadly not the way you want, nor not something that is good for her family. She will continue to explore various things for she is trying to find something that feels right for her at this moment.

As you are doing, accept that there are sad times but continue moving forward in your own journey. You are getting involved in really good things and this will help you regain your equilibrium which may be is a better way to think of it than beating yourself up for

I need to get back onto the detach course although have been doing a lot of personal reflections too.

Through your own work, you will "detach" but it is a slow process and I don't believe we can force ourselves to detach until we are ready to let go...which having contact can be difficult to do.

Watch the finances. You are doing really well at observing what is happening and shifting things to make life a bit less painful...really good not to look at facebook!

[freefall2flight]

Thank you @xyzcf

In a way, your wife is working on herself. She has left behind her old persona and is actively seeking something new and different, sadly not the way you want, nor not something that is good for her family. She will continue to explore various things for she is trying to find something that feels right for her at this moment.

You make a really good point here, something I do keep forgetting.  The ADHD complicates things I feel as this is another barrier in her brain.

This monster paid a visit this morning.

Last night was difficult as our eldest came home from school ill and went to my parents.  My wife had to pick my D up early and miss her gym (part and parcel of being a parent).  I was up in the evening and night with the girls, as they do they throw you curveballs together :-D (I wouldn't change that for the world though, I love taking care of my girls).  The youngest wet her bed (she never does this!) and the eldest was still ill in the night.  I made sure I got up early and took care of everything with the addition of morning showers and stripping beds.  My wife chose to remain in her 'hole' and came in even later then usual.

My wife had message me the evening before to say we probably need to take D6 to the Drs so this morning I asked her about this.  In a fashion that she always does she flipped it around and asked what I think.  At the moment I feel this is leading in case the incorrect decision is made she has 'no responsibility' to the situation as i was 'my decision.'  However this could be my own negative thought pattern so I just tried to keep it open and try and have a light discussion.  The brought out the monster as apparently I was not listening to her.  In this instance all I had done is listen as I was making a real conscious effort to listen. 

It appears the complication to the situation is that she had not thought if we took D6 to the Dr I would need the car.  And since she chose to get up late she did not have time to get to work without the car.  It felt like this was starting to play into her decision making and potentially the guilt of not putting the girls first in the morning was being projected. I did try and diffuse and rationalise I could always take her to the walk in clinic later if she got worse or call on my parents.  I really did try and avoid any conflict and to listen.  My final suggestion was would it be possible to nip to the shop quickly (10 min around trip) and get some soup if we didn't have any as my daughter is struggling to swallow with possible strep/tonsilitis. 

It was at this point the monster raged, "I don't really have time do I! But fine, since you disagree with EVERYTHING I say, you have the car then and just do what you want to do! Raghhhh!"

I calmly checked the cupboard and we had soup.

I know I should expect these things but it doesn't make it any easier, especially since one of the girls is ill.  Yes work is important but I feel children have to come first.  I mean there is always a solution if you talk things though but she just can't stand to talk to me.

Before this even all happened, I offered this morning to cancel one part of my plans this evening so W could make up her gym class and made sure to thank and praise her for picking D up yesterday missing her gym.  It is interesting how any positive and supportive acts (at least I think that was positive and supportive) can fall on deaf ears once the hate surfaces.

We have also been invite around one of our mutual friends house next weekend (husband is one of my good friends from school although as two families with kids we are all good family friends) and we have not seen them in 5 months.  They do not know about the situation.  I have been avoiding them since BD but feel now it is impacting my friendship and the girls as they really get along with their kids. 

I feel a bit pressured now as I want to spend next weekend with them but know my wife won't go. I don't really know what to do and I feel trapped, anxious and stressed. I feel I may need to give our friends a very high level "my Wife and I are having issues at the moment" but I am sure that will lead to more questions.  I want to do right by my girls.

This is all making my head hurt today and I feel a bit exhausted :-(

[Treasur]

Sounds like it may be time to consider getting your own car? 

Imho I don’t think it’s particularly productive to dole out praise for an adult human doing a bare minimum - what a poster called Chump Lady calls a ‘b!tc# cookie’ lol. Partly bc it’s not always entirely honest, partly bc it’s a bit enabling or even patronising, partly bc they don’t want our opinions and tend to twist them, mostly bc it’s a bit futile as it seems to make little difference. Not saying you should go the opposite way of not doing basic polite acknowledgement perhaps, just that a big Hoo Hoo hoorah is not perhaps the way to go. Your wife may be behaving like a teenage child, but she is actually an adult and a parent.

Out of interest, how do you think you would have handled this situation differently if you had gone about it without asking her opinion or involving her at all? If you had just tackled it as if you were a solo separated dad? And one who did not change their schedule to compensate for your wife’s missed gym time or lateness for work bc she had chosen to stay out late or miss her gym time to go and do something else? If you saw these as separate things as they would be f you lived separately perhaps?

And how would you approach the invite from your friends if you were a solo separated dad?

I hope your little one feels better soon x

[UrsaMajor]

Sounds like it may be time to consider getting your own car? 
<...snip...>
Out of interest, how do you think you would have handled this situation differently if you had gone about it without asking her opinion or involving her at all? If you had just tackled it as if you were a solo separated dad? And one who did not change their schedule to compensate for your wife’s missed gym time or lateness for work bc she had chosen to stay out late or miss her gym time to go and do something else? If you saw these as separate things as they would be f you lived separately perhaps?

And how would you approach the invite from your friends if you were a solo separated dad?

These are very good questions from Treasur because, if you/we are 100% honest, that is EXACTLY what you are - a solo separated dad that happens to have a Body Snatcher still living in the house with him, pretending to be a mom while not really being invested in being a parent.  The flipping around was, as you very astutely observed, nothing more than a disguised way to place blame on you for the consequences of her actions or decisions (or lack thereof) and a way to shift blame to you for whatever happens. There was no way for you to come out of that situation without getting whacked because, no matter WHAT you said, it would have been "wrong,"  even if you mirrored 100% what she had already suggested (assuming she suggested anything)....

The monster you saw was the typical reaction of the Mid-Lifer to being confronted with responsibility and the consequences of their actions. Responsibility cuts into their happy time and, of course, the LBS is the one responsible for any consequences of the Mid-Lifers actions - after all, if it wasn't for the LBS, the Mid-Lifer would be living the life.... 

[Standing Strong]

Hey FF2F,

I think you handled that very well.  Good job.

The anger you see has nothing to do with what you are doing, and so calmly continuing on is exactly the right thing.

The friends....... personally, I'd do it.... go, have fun, get away. It will be good for you (and your girls). It'll be good for your W too.
As for questions, you don't have to say anything, and good friends won't dig... sure they'll be curious, but let them be.... they aren't your keepers. You can say "I'd rather not talk about that right now, maybe at a later time". Good empathetic friends will leave things be, and try to support.
So live FF2F, and do what's right for you. Gotta do it. At some point, it's going to happen anyway....... sooner is better than later. Get thru that challenge and come out the other side of it. 

Rooting for ya all the way.

-SS

[freefall2flight]

Quick vent here to purge my anger.......

My wife has hardly spent any time this weekend with our children.  I did manage to arrange the family takeout evening we have with the girls yet my wife spent all evening on her phone.  The children were pining for her attention, for hugs and cuddles yet she just pretty much ignored them or moaned at them to sit still.  They just wanted some blo*dy attention!  Her loss as I got more cuddles from the children instead.

Today she got up late as usual, came in the house and went gym, no time with the girls.  Came back, ate breakfast, sat on her phone.  I was doing some home learning with the girls before I went for my run.  As expected, my wife ignored the girls and I came back and she had just given them sweets before lunch and stuck them in front of the TV.  Me and the girls had lunch, and my wife continued to get ready for her 'big night out and away.'  (she has been blo*dy getting ready since last night!).  To be honest I have not given a second thought really, I never ask where she is going and am just in the mindset whatever she does, with whomever and wherever I have no influence or control.  She will do what she will do.  I have felt relatively detached from that perspective....until today!

So, what has got me all flustered this afternoon is my children are wanting to interact with her and asked if she is coming our with them and Daddy this afternoon.  She said no, she is meeting a 'friend.'  It's fair enough being cryptic with me (I mena i never ask anyway so don't even get cryptic any more other than random cryptic calendar entries in our family calendar) but the girls just want to talk to their Mummy. 

I am angry as my wife knew I was in ear shot and I felt goaded.  Our children know my wife's friends so I am sure it would have been easy enough to either tell the truth or lie and tell them someone they know.  What the heck is the purpose of keep telling them 'a friend' when she knows the girls are going to keep probing.

I felt like it was being done to p*ss me off and make me jealous.  I have never, ever been a jealous type so this felt strange to feel this way.  Well congratulations Evil-Clone-Wife you have succeeded in making me feel angry, sad and bad. Point to you :-(

I know I should not take it to heart but stuff like that feel unnecessary when I literally have done nothing wrong.  I have kept to myself, left her alone, helped where I could within my boundaries, been as good Dad as I can be, kept the house going.  I have a job interview next week but am struggling to focus.  Arghhhhhhhhhhhh!

Thanks for listening.  Rant over.

[xyzcf]

There are no words of "wisdom" for you. There are only words of support and caring for you and your family.

I was chatting with a long timer yesterday and she stated "it is cruel"...not that they are cruel (although their actions are) but the results of those actions are..they are unfair, selfish, damaging, hurtful and 1000 other things.

You are "programmed" to protect your children and her actions towards them and their distress will tear you apart. Adding to the pain that you feel from the loss of a loving wife.

As she continues to leave behind any of her responsibilities, what is hard is not being able to discuss or talk to her about the need to be a mom. Nothing you say to her will do any good.

Being on her phone during family time, I found that so disrespectful when he did that. Referring to "friends" without giving them any name  (or gender) is something I have also experienced and my daughter and I have talked about this as he does the same to her.

We are not a part of their world....being secretive is part of who they have become. Leaving behind their responsibilities is also the "norm"...which is hard for us to understand....you can still live your own life and make sure that the children are ok......but somehow, they cannot.

I still have not mastered this 100%...but letting go of all expectations eventually will allow you to find more peace....time...it takes so much time and she is showing such a 180 degree change in who she was...not at all easy to deal with.

Breathe, take the children outdoors and continue to be the parent that they can depend upon and trust.

Good luck with your job interview. It is hard to focus when your world is crashing down.

 

[readytofixmyselffirst]

Hello,

Feel free to rant all you want. I was there too, listening and dealing with my ex as she pushed all the buttons. The secrecy and acting like you are some controlling beast. All the time waiting for you to say something to set off their own volcanic reaction. Then justifying it all by stating that you started it all.

The anger you see has nothing to do with what you are doing, and so calmly continuing on is exactly the right thing.

Great point. However, calmly doesn't mean appeasing the beast either.

Out of interest, how do you think you would have handled this situation differently if you had gone about it without asking her opinion or involving her at all? If you had just tackled it as if you were a solo separated dad?

Perfect point. Life and act as if she is not coming back. If she wants to live the free life, let her live it. However, you live the same free life. You are right, the children come first. If you wife wants to be part of their lives, then she needs to be present. Otherwise, the world moves on without her. That's not to punish her, it is just a reality. If she gets anger, simple response, "Sorry you feel that way, but I needed to take care of our daughter."

I am writing this because I was way too easy on my ex during the initial phase. I am not saying this to flip the switch and be mean and rude to her, but don't feed the beast either. If you give in to a sullen and resentful teenager, you only get more of the same treatment- fi not worse. If she wants to be treated like and adult, then act like one.

The other aspect I want you to consider is your own state of being. Bomb drop and all of this is a huge shock to your total system, physical, mental, and emotional states. Take time to heal yourself and rebuild yourself. Self care and recovery will help you in the long run. You don't have to be her emotional punching bag until she drains all the joy of your life. Live and live as if she is not coming back. Enjoy the girls and remember this has nothing to do with you or your marriage. It is her crisis and she has to work this out on her own. In leadership, it comes done to three things, things you can control, things you can't control, and things you can influence. Be an influence by moving forward with or without her. Don't stay stuck behind her disabled vehicle, just change lanes and move on. She knows how to call for a tow truck.

Best to you,

(((Ready)))

[Treasur]

Well done on being wise enough to vent here.
We get it, we hear you and nothing gets dented by venting here 

I’ve read a few LBS parents post that the principle they found most helpful - although it takes a while usually to get it - is that your job is not to manage or facilitate or create her relationship with her own children, it is simply not to get in the way of one such as it is. Lots of wise words from ready and xyzcf who, unlike me, are both parents and have walked in similar shoes.

I imagine (and perhaps this is why it takes time to get) that it must be very hard to see your little ones wanting to interact with their mother and her lack of response. Sadly it s very textbook and will be quite familiar to a number f LBS parents here....the good news about that though is, while you can’t fix it, you are not to blame for it either. Lots of LBS parents here have found even quite small children seem to have an instinct about an MLC parent not being quite ‘right’ sometimes and that a good solid LBS parent can create a safe solid loved place for them regardless.

I’m sorry - and you’re a smart guy so I know you know this - but the mention of mummy’s mysterious ‘friend’, the phone obsession and the hours getting ready for a ‘big night out’ do suggest that there is an om in the mix. Which is of course textbook too. But painful to accept. Tbh it was most probably not said to goad you....even if that was your response....but more likely your wife is scattering breadcrumb clues to prepare the ground or justify her behaviour to herself. In short, not about you at all. MLC spouses imho don’t much care about our thoughts or feelings about anything much particularly in the first few months post BD 

I don’t know if you have a decent IC or another safe place to think out loud, but from the cheap seats here, it might serve you well to start considering what feels do-able and not about living in this way, where your boundaries are, what your legal/financial position is, how long you think the ‘wife in the annex’ thing is sustainable for you and your kids and what operating as a single dad with a unreliable wife/parent might look like. Even if you should be quietly documenting your individual parenting time right now in case of a future custody dispute, although a lawyer could advise you best about this. All of these things can be considered in the context of standing, if you currently wish to do so, but it might make life easier and more predictable and pleasant for you and your girls if you make a plan based on how things are right now as opposed to how they might be in the future.

Good luck with the job interview - we’ll all be cheering you on from here 

[freefall2flight]

It sure does help to vent.  I took the girls out this afternoon and surprised my FIL and 2 BIL who were playing in a community sports fixture.  My girls loved it!  And although my FIL didn't want us to come (for embarrassment of his poor performance in the game lol I think he did great for his age!) they all were so grateful for me and the girls attending.  My FIL even said although he was embarrassed for us to watch him he was so happy we came to show our support.  I love my FIL & BIL.  Although FIL and I got off to a rocky start all those years ago, when W reconciled with him our bond grew too.  This makes me sad as I fear losing those relationships too.  My eldest BIL knows some about our situation however only from my W at BD.  He has never treated me any different and we still have a relationship as good as a blood brother.  I am sure they would disapprove of my W current value system and behaviour yet they don't experience it (I am certain that my other BIL and FIL don't know anything as FIL complained my W had not spoken to him in a long time) as she has withdrawn from them.

We then continued a nice afternoon at my parents with the girls having lots of fun.

Home time is where the evening went south.  My D6 told her grandmother how much she missed her mum and wished she would come back.  She was inconsolable in the house and in the car.  Even the usual meditation and mindfulness didn't work this time.  She cried for 30 minutes straight at home asking why mummy couldn't come back.  In her own words (of a D6!) she said "I am so frustrated that she is not here, I do not get enough cuddles and it really hurts my feelings." Rightly or wrongly whilst reassuring her that mummy loves her, I said maybe she should tell mummy how she feels when she feels sad and explain it to her as mummy probably doesn't realise.

The sweetest thing though (which melted and broke my heart at the same time) my D3 said "D6, remember you still have me and Daddy and we love you).  I was so so very proud at the pure kindness that even a 3yo can express.  I made sure I had proper heart to heart with my D3 when I tucked her up praising her to the hills to the compassion she showed.  It is amazing how even a 3yo can show shyness and modesty in the face of praise.  I am so very proud of my girls.

[freefall2flight]

Thanks @xyzcf, ready & treasur,

I was chatting with a long timer yesterday and she stated "it is cruel"...not that they are cruel (although their actions are) but the results of those actions are..they are unfair, selfish, damaging, hurtful and 1000 other things.

The consequences are what breaks me sometimes.  I stayed strong but my heart was shattered yet again for the agony my D6 was in tonight.  I have to be careful this does not fuel the anger for my W and have to rationalise she is "sick" for me to process her decisions and behaviours.

Feel free to rant all you want. I was there too, listening and dealing with my ex as she pushed all the buttons. The secrecy and acting like you are some controlling beast. All the time waiting for you to say something to set off their own volcanic reaction. Then justifying it all by stating that you started it all.

Too right! I feel like I am constantly being set up.  My F said he feels like I am walking on egg shells yet to me it is more like tight roping over a minefield when the explosion hurts but doesn't kill you but groundhog days you back to the beginning to start all over again.

I am writing this because I was way too easy on my ex during the initial phase. I am not saying this to flip the switch and be mean and rude to her, but don't feed the beast either. If you give in to a sullen and resentful teenager, you only get more of the same treatment- fi not worse. If she wants to be treated like and adult, then act like one.

This is great advice which again feels like such a fine line between doing what's best without destroying my whole value system.

Don't stay stuck behind her disabled vehicle, just change lanes and move on. She knows how to call for a tow truck.

I love this :-D

I imagine (and perhaps this is why it takes time to get) that it must be very hard to see your little ones wanting to interact with their mother and her lack of response. Sadly it s very textbook and will be quite familiar to a number f LBS parents here....the good news about that though is, while you can’t fix it, you are not to blame for it either. Lots of LBS parents here have found even quite small children seem to have an instinct about an MLC parent not being quite ‘right’ sometimes and that a good solid LBS parent can create a safe solid loved place for them regardless.

Again, so much truth in this,  It kills me to see this as the sad fact is my W if 1) missing out too 2) will eventually have to deal with the fallout of these actions compounded with all her other issues.  And you are right that kids are perceptive.  My D is very sensitive and as my previous post about tonight shows, she has determined that something isn't quite the same with mummy at the moment.

I have been trying to prepare a lot for the other crazy things a MLC-W may do and although a PA with OM is painful to consider I have weirdly felt I had detached from if that happens...until her 'friend' talk with the kids triggered me.  Funnily enough she told my Ds she was going to a birthday party when I went outside.  And then even stranger when I went to leave with the girls my W shouted after I closed the door so I went back in as I didn't hear her and she said 'I may be back tonight, I have not decided yet.'  Complete contradiction to what she told me earlier.  Not worth the energy trying to understand why she would call me back to tell me this in the first place, especially after her little charade with the girls just 15 mins earlier lol.

I have been keeping notes and evidence of incidents and some diary entries in case I need them in the future.  I have been back and forth thinking what is best with regards to the living situation and have come to the conclusion currently it impacts me more than the girls and I basically need to suck it up hahaha.  Hence I think it is better is she is still in the annex.  As I detach and GAL I am sure it will get easier.  My sine wave is getting shallower with less oscillations.  I reason that My W will not likely pay any more attention if she moves out and at the moment she would not be able to afford it and it will become another burden on me.

Thanks again for all your advice, much appreciated as usual.

[freefall2flight]

And the night just gets weirder. I'm trying to get sleep when however some headlamps seem to be shining directly into my room. I check the CCTV and peak out the window and there is a car at the top of the drive in thr middle of the road. It is there for ages. We have had previous issues with anti social behaviour and people fleeing into the woodland behind our house. I decided to investigate and confront them. Especially since they have been there for a strangly long amount of time for this time of night. Shielding my eyes from the beams I walk up and hear, can I help you, are you OK and it is my wife in the back seat. Passenger is one of the other bad influencers from work and either her husband or affair partner is driving. My wife bark annoyed at me "we are just talking" so I leave. Again. Baffled lol. I shall pull the duvet over my head. They are still out there now. Turn your headlights off man! or talk somwhere else!

[Trustandlove]

I don't know if this helps; one of the things I used to say to my children when they were smaller (although not quite as young as yours are right now) was something along the lines of "I know this is awful, if I could wave my magic wand and make it all better I would, but unfortunately I don't have one, so we are just going to have to do the best we can", and reassuring them that I loved them. 

At the beginning I also used to say that I was sure that daddy loved them, but that something was very wrong right now..   I have no idea if that was right or wrong, but it is what I did. 

It is OK to say that you don't know if they ask for explanations, I think.    I know the feeling of agony for what our children go through, it's he**. 

[MadLuv]

Wow, yeah really . Turn the lights off!!  You are in a tough place with your W acting like a teenager. I don’t envy you as it is just right in your face. I would call the police on the lights being on and a suspicious car. Let them tell them. I feel for you.

[Dragonfly33]

I would call the police and tell them it’s a disturbance in the neighborhood.

[Dragonfly33]

Or better I would tell the police I suspect there’s drug dealing going on.

[HeavenlyFocus]

I wanted send you a word of encouragement.  I know where you are at with your W and it’s mindblowing at times. I went through so many similar experiences as you that it brings me back to my time after BD.

Keep reading and getting support from others on this  forum.  It will get easier and you will get stronger in time.  You are a great Dad and will provide the love and stability that your kids need.

HF

[Treasur]

What strikes me first is that I hope you are prioritising daily actions - whatever works for you - to take very good care indeed of your mental and physical wellbeing.  Imho this is a priority for every LBS in the first year or so post BD, and it is even more important if you have experience of anxiety or depression in your past. These situations are often like a rather relentless ‘death by a thousand cuts’ and it takes fortitude and a solid core to limit the personal damage from them. Are you doing this?

This is probably even more important with some kind of ‘spouse in the house’ situation bc you are exposed to the rollercoaster of it every day in both big and small ways. And usually the turmoil and uncertainty of a crisis spouse, whether they are at home or not, runs for YEARS not months before it gets better. So imho, making YOUR wellbeing an active priority, regardless of what is happening around you, is an absolute necessity bc everything else in your life - your kids wellbeing, your work, your finances, your future - rests on it. And that is as true if you are standing for your marriage bc that demands a lot, or if you decide to live a new separated life bc that demands a lot too or if you divorce bc that demands a lot as well.  Are you doing what you need to do to stabilise and strengthen yourself if you knew that you have years of this kind of crazy s$it ahead of you?

Right now, my sense is that you are trying to hunker down bc you believe that your chances of getting what you want, or perhaps avoiding what you don’t want, are higher if your wife stays in the home, albeit in the annex? That’s ok if that’s how you feel...that may change, it may not, events outside your control may change the situation anyways...it is early days and that’s ok. But if that is what you are choosing to do at the moment, then my tough love message is that you are going to need to recalibrate your own behaviour and expectations accordingly. You are going to need a good set of solid boundaries to adapt to the circumstances, and working boundaries out under this kind of pressure is something most of us find pretty hard and confusing initially. You said in your very first post I think that you believe your relationship with your wife, even in past good times, had a lot of codependency in it where you were the practical caretaker of grown up things? If so, boundaries are going to feel counter-intuitive, scary and very uncomfortable to get going with. And probably your wife is not going to like it when/if you do bc it is going to feel uncomfortable for her too as she is used to the old version of your relationship pattern....and usually that means more anger, acting out or conflict which will feel even more uncomfortable for you. You can see I think why this is not easy to change in oneself and why it takes time and trial and error to do so.Are you talking to your own IC about this as a priority?

Boundaries are about what we will allow, accept and invest energy in once we see the limits of what we can control or influence.  They are not pleas, they are not negotiations, they are not ultimatums, they are not punishments, they are not manipulations. They are simply our own No thank you lines. What are some of yours, do you think? So, taking the car example.....if it happened again....you have choices. What you did was went out to explore, got told to go away by your wife and a couple of strangers and then retreated back to the house. That was one choice....but there are others available to you. You could have ignored it, for instance, called the police as others said, locked the front door from the inside etc etc....i’m not saying these are easy choices without uncomfortable consequences, that’s true. And benefits too, bc for instance you could have made choices that perhaps made a situation worse....took a sledgehammer to the car headlights or punched the driver in the face  What I am saying is that the choice you made was a message, to you and others, about where your boundary lines currently are if that makes sense. With the gift of hindsight, what do you think you could or should have done?

I suppose what i am trying to encourage you to do is accept that you are not in Kansas anymore 
To look with a cool eye at the current reality that you are sharing a house with a wife in an annex who is going to do whatever she wants, who is not a reliable or trustworthy partner or parent or who will bring drama and uncertainty to the table regardless of what you do. And that, regardless f your opinion or feelings about it, she does writ large have the right as an independent human adult to choose a path for her own life along with the effects of that choice. Not your barnyard, not your manure as another poster here sometimes says  Besudes, you probably have enough of your own life manure to deal with right now  Tto make a solid plan for how you are going to adjust your own way of going about things accordingly if you are choosing to let that play out which feels do-able, and protects you and your kids from as much collateral damage as possible. Figuring out that plan will naturally raise issues for you about what feels do-able and what does not....and therefore your own boundaries about how you choose to live. Make sense? That might include some basics....a morning routine which does not involve your wife, a car of your own so you can do things independently, finding a back up support system for child care or emergencies. It might involve bigger things like how much or little time you spend together as a set of four vs two sets of three,  or a financial plan, or taking my legal advice about your rights and obligations, or considering your own physical and emotional safety, or how to balance your work commitments with solo parenting particularly if your job changes or if you can end the wife in the annex situation legally if you reach a point when you choose to. Again, make sense? We truly do get how easy this is to type and how very, very hard it is to begin doing.  but imho the basic principle is to put your hopes of better quietly in a box to one side (bc you are allowed to hope) and push yourself to accept that this IS the current reality of how things are for the foreseeable future based on what you currently know.....and you have the right to make a plan that works best for you and your kids as far as you can. If you knew that this situation was going to last for, say, another year, or three, until your daughter’s were 9 and 7 say, what would that plan be, my friend?

I remember that one of the most helpful things a friend said to me when my mother was disappearing fast into dementia was that there was no Good Answer, just the honest best of a bunch of Not Great Answers I could come up with for an awful situation that I didn’t create and couldn’t change. Strangely, there was a kind of peace in that, in being able to lay down the weight of trying to find the Perfect Answer that was going to make everything ok and make the horrid stuff go away. Bc it was beyond my pay grade and trying to find the Good Answer was exhausting. Again, jmo, but I think that is usually the situation we LBS find ourselves in for quite a while post BD....and it is exhausting,disheartening and rather lonely, isn’t it? Sometimes though good enough is good enough. And I hope you know that you have support here from a lot of folks who have waded through the mud you are currently wading through x