[amazinglove]

Thank you Nas - those are such helpful thoughts. And Jmnab I am so grateful for your support and encouragement! Thank you!

I think as the enormity of what he's done continues to hit me. And from the safety and distance of my sister's sofa in NYC while he cares for the kids in CA - the more I think about him, the less I want him in my life. I don't think he's a good role model for our kids either.

I think I will go back and say as little as possible and keep him at arm's length until we get through our wedding anniversary on Monday (GAH) and the kids' trip for Vday to LA - and then he can book his flight back. I might suggest it. Once I know he's booked it and my keeping quiet will not prolong his time with kids, I will have a more significant conversation with him about my own boundaries.

Some things I'm thinking: he cannot bring this woman back to our flat in Antalya. All my things are in the closet and drawers and my kids toys etc. She has money, she can stay in a hotel, not in our home. I am serious about this, or I will not go back there and stay myself this summer with kids. It is actually my house, in my name, and I don't want her in a home that we set up every single inch for ourselves and our family. Not unless we are divorced and it's his home. I will also insist he does not introduce her to our kids, ever, or I will tell them that she was daddy's secret gf while he was married to mommy. And also he has to get a proper job and pay some child support. Those kinds of things.

I am not sure if he has a moral compass anymore, I think that's the crux of it, and I don't think I can ever, ever trust him again. The thing is, maybe my kids don't need a dad like that.

The whole saga is so sad. I keep trying to go back and read your messages about MLC. When this first kicked off, remembering that this is about him, about his brokenness, not about my marriage and our family. This is not about an affair even (altho that is front of mind currently) but the sheer number of lies it took for him to get here, and really callous and cruel behavior towards me is still mind boggling to me. The fact that he still does not even see it, or understand the enormity of what he's done, or really seem keen to fix it with me, is deeply painful and frustrating.

Do any of you advise to tell them what they deserve to hear ?

[jmnab]

Do any of you advise to tell them what they deserve to hear ?

I don't know if this will be helpful, but I want to chime in with my experience so far. Keep in mind I have the privilege of saying whatever I want because there are no children involved...

Every time I've defended myself or insulted him back (which I'm ashamed to say has happened a few times) it has backfired on me 3x. There seemed to be a few fleeting moments of surprise at my response, but in general, it didn't turn out well.

On top of that, the moodiness and waffling causes H to apologize for what he's said or done one minute, and attack me the next. I'm learning this is largely based on how we (LBS) interact with them. After the last couple of months, and based on where I am timeline-wise, I sincerely believe that when it comes to LBS, they can't keep a thought in their brain long enough to remember anything impactful. It seems like the made up reasons for their contempt change with every conversation.

But if it's related to the kids, maybe it would be a good thing?
Maybe frame it in terms of boundaries?

[amazinglove]

Thank you for that. Yes probably you are right. He has already said some mean things that ring in my head. Stupid things that I really don't need to replay. Might be better to avoid too much more of that until he is able to untangle (if ever) more of this on his own.

I do have strong feelings about a few things tho, and I will express them but wait for my moment.

I never, ever thought this was possible from this person. It's like a horrible nightmare, but real.

[jmnab]

I never, ever thought this was possible from this person. It's like a horrible nightmare, but real.

I keep saying the same thing. 

[Reinventing]

AL, what is enforceable in the list of what you want to say to him? Can you force him to get a job?

Does removing you and the kids from the flat this summer help you? How will you know if she went there or not?

He may enjoy thwarting you in your demands if they are not enforceable.

I'm not saying what you want is wrong or unreasonable--when you are working with someone on your team. But he is not on your team right now.

[UrsaMajor]

Reinventing already addressed this but.....

Some things I'm thinking: he cannot bring this woman back to our flat in Antalya.

And you'll enforce this how? How will/would you know?

All my things are in the closet and drawers and my kids toys etc. She has money, she can stay in a hotel, not in our home. I am serious about this, or I will not go back there and stay myself this summer with kids. It is actually my house, in my name, and I don't want her in a home that we set up every single inch for ourselves and our family. Not unless we are divorced and it's his home.

Understandable but see question #1... How would you know?  If the house is yours and in your name only, you can do things like have the locks changed so he can not enter. By default then OW can also not enter. Is this worth the effort?

I will also insist he does not introduce her to our kids, ever, or I will tell them that she was daddy's secret gf while he was married to mommy.

This is not a boundary, it is a threat, an ultimatum and it is guaranteed to bring on the Monster at least or blow up in your face because he will do it just to be spiteful.

And also he has to get a proper job and pay some child support. Those kinds of things.

And you will enforce this boundary how? He will need to pay child support. Fine. Where he gets the money to do so is his problem, not yours. Even if he chooses to default, then he will have other legal liabilities hanging over his head.

Do any of you advise to tell them what they deserve to hear ?

you can

for all the good it will do you.....

[Treasur]

Such good news about your sister, yay for that!

Turning to your last couple of posts…..
It’s probably important that you understand and accept the strong likelihood that right now your emotions (understandably) are running very hot. And a bit like the quote from Alice in Wonderland, you are probably having six different emotions before breakfast! Accepting this helps you create a gap between the entirely reasonable feelings - anger, fear, helplessness, grief et al - and the very normal impulse to scratch an itch by DOING something with the feeling. Strong emotions can be a good driver, but a lousy navigator 

Don’t misunderstand me. I am not saying you should not take action. I’m just saying that you would be wiser to not take big actions or make big declarations while you are running hot. Give your thinking brain a chance to catch up with your feelings brain if that makes sense. If only bc your choices from here are about your life treasures - your children’s wellbeing, your future emotional and financial stability, your own sense of agency and where you invest the energy of your one precious life.

So, keep slowing your roll 

On the other issues you posted about, I’m going to helicopter up for a moment and invite you to do the same. Hard for feelings brains to do, easier when we can engage our thinking brains, right? Which is why it’s also easier to do from the cheap high up seats over here lol.

With the great gift of hindsight, I think the core of the learning process for most LBS is about what I’d call Serenity Prayer Sees The Real Life Rabbit 101, regardless of whether one is a person of faith or not 

Remember the Serenity Prayer?

God grant me the serenity
To accept the things I cannot change;
Courage to change the things I can;
And the wisdom to know the difference.
Living one day at a time;
Enjoying one moment at a time;
Accepting hardships as the pathway to peace;
Taking, as He did, this sinful world
As it is, not as I would have it;
Trusting that He will make all things right If I surrender to His Will;
So that I may be reasonably happy in this life
And supremely happy with Him Forever and ever in the next.

To accept the things I cannot change…..what are they?
Courage to change the things I can….what are they? And what fears do you need to navigate through to do that?
And the wisdom to know the difference….how do you distinguish one from the other?

And, often forgotten when folks refer to the Serenity Prayer….

Living one day at a time; Enjoying one moment at a time….or what we call GAL, what’s the balance between what I’m struggling with and this?
And
Taking, as He did, this sinful world As it is, not as I would have it….or what we sometimes call Detachment or Acceptance here, the extent to which we find our own way to deal with how it actually is at a given moment as opposed to how we want it to be or think it should be

So, I’m going to invite you to take a beat and run a scan over the issues you posted….everything from the date he goes, the kid’s holiday days, the Antalya flat, introducing ow, future holidays, his opinion or appreciation of you, his job choices, child support, the nature and extent of his relationship with his children, being knowingly married to this kind of man right now, what you want for your children, what you want for yourself, conversations you think you should have or intend to have with him…..the whole list, all of it, whatever you are chewing on big or small.

Use the Serenity Prayer as a kind of mental ruler.

And at least in the privacy of your own mind, or with a bit of paper, or in conversation with the Big Guy….

What can you really control? And what can you not, even if you wish you could? And how do you find a way to make peace with accepting the specific realities in your current situation that you cannot change or control?

How can you find a way to live in the moments of your life with some joy regardless?

What does a pathway to Peace in your own life and spirit look like to you from where you are right now? There’s a Buddhist principle I’m going to maul now which is something to the effect that humans suffer when we try to fight reality bc reality tends to win lol…..peace and freedom from suffering, the kind of deep suffering that most LBS know sadly, starts to come when we find a way to work with reality not against it. But that takes a bit of time and intentional effort for most of us, ha ha.

And how can you grow and keep a clear eyed focus on As It Is as opposed to As I Want It To Be?

Sending you a very big encouraging hug from here. It’s easy to see that you are so much stronger, smarter and creative than you probably feel right now but we can see it, and that you will figure it out x

[FrenchHusband]

What a great post Treasur (greatness being your usual by the way  ) ; I didn't know the second part of the Prayer that I am already using for myself and spreading around me (evangelization) since BD. Now I get the second part + your exegesis regarding LBS advices. Thank you so much !

[amazinglove]

Thank you so much Treasur! I had not ever heard that back half of the Serenity Prayer and it's very apt and I loved the Buddhist idea of facing reality. It helped me thank you -as did all your replies - am grateful for them.

I've always been someone who has fought hard to overcome enormous odds, and for the most part I have. I have been relentless and fearless in my life, with my career, with my choice of husband, my living in other countries, and it has got me to where I am now. It's one of my best traits!  But I'm learning that you cannot control what you cannot control and this is a lesson in letting go, living with liminality (not to be confused with limerence!), living with uncertainty, not being able to influence outcomes etc. Accepting what you cannot change? A terribly hard lesson for someone like me.

This week with my sister has been lovely and restorative. We have walked hours through Central Park and I have cried lots of tears. She never stopped walking, and once, when I complained (we were marching up hills in the North Woods and I was literally doubled over) and she said "I'm just trying to keep you MOVING" and that was true in more ways than one. She really is trying to keep me moving. She has listened to my obsessive ramblings more than any sane person should have to. She has given advice, given agreement and argued when needed. We have visited pubs, stayed up late talking in bed, hit glam locations and also spent hours on the sofa with Pad Thai or sushi and watching great tv.  She prosecutes murderers for a living, so she is a hard one to shock. I admire her greatly. My H was one of the few men she admired and loved - he was a true brother to her - and this has been a blow to her too. I forget that there is pain other than my own and my kids around this. Everyone who loved him is hurting. Our mutual friend talked to H's mom on the phone and she cried for most of it. She is deeply worried about what he is doing to our family. Apparently, H hasn't told anyone in his family that I 'know' ab his affair yet. I think he is saving that for when he gets back there.

As I think I wrote, he's intimated to me that he wants to leave as soon as possible after I get back. He is depressed and my mom said after he takes kids to school he sleeps and sits around al day. He left the house only a couple of times apart from getting kids. I leave here tomo morning early NYC time, 515am and will be back in Cali before 11am. He has to stick around at least until Friday so I guess that will give us time to talk. I do not plan on driving him back to LAX this time around. Because, no matter how you slice it, I'm driving him back to her.

Being here has given me much needed space in which to feel my feelings and think my thoughts. It has been painful, even overwhelming at times. I don't see him as a suitable partner to me anymore. He is not mine now. He really does belong to someone else. It feels like we are speaking 2 diff languages on two diff frequencies.  I feel that he is numb or blind to goodness and immune from anything I could say or do to persuade him (likely anything anyone else could do too), so perhaps best we stick to the state of things as they are now and what happens in the immediate (ie next 3 months) future. Is that what they call the MLC 'fog"?

Listening to all of your wisdom, I will try not to make big pronouncements in the next few days that I might live to regret, (altho it's hard to imagine I would), but also set clear boundaries of what I can and cannot accept. Enforceable or not, I am drawing a line. If he chooses to cross it, that's on him. I am coming round to the conclusion that if he is living in darkness, selfish and perpetually miserable he is likely not the best person to have around the kids either. I will not try to guilt him into coming back.

I don't know what words I will use. I don't know what moment I will choose. I don't know what mood he will be in, or what he will say to me when we see each other tomorrow. I know almost nothing!

Here's what I do know. I do know that I have support and love here on my side. I know that I thrived (i wrote existed but changed it) before him and I will thrive again after him. I know that my family loves me. I know I have the best friends in the world. I know that I am smart and talented and I will always find work. I know that I would not have these gorgeous, perfect children, the biggest blessing of my life, without him. I know that this pain will not kill me and will lessen someday.  The rest will have to sort itself out I guess.

Will keep you posted.....

[amazinglove]

Ok so here's the update. Today is our 13th wedding anniversary. Lucky 13! Nightmare.

We went for a long walk and he basically asked me for time. He said he loves me, he will love me forever, he does not want to lose me or this family. He said he is asking for some time to figure it out. He is leaving here Monday and he is flying to meet her in Barcelona. He said he will stay a week or so. They  never spend more than a week as one of them is always leaving and she has to live full time in Moscow where she has businesses. I suggested they move in together and experience real life. She is very rich apparently - he did not tell me this but I understood it to be true. He is living in a fantasy world where he just travels the world with her or something and never gets a real job apart from his (now 10 hours a week) of client zooms.

I told him I will give him some time but that I wlll divorce him if this continues much longer. I feel humiliated, hugely disrespected, that my patience is running low and he is killing my love for him with this. I am also angry at how much he expects me to handle by myself with our kids. At some point,  I will not be able to go back to him. That is the truth, I did not say it to persuade him either way. It was not an ultimatum it is just a statement of facts. I wanted to feel like i warned him of this when/if it happens. And if I really think about it, I think it might possibly even too late for me to love him fully again now. It will never be the same. I am on the fence. I am honestly not sure. I def have like zero respect for him. It might be easier to just cut ties now and try to start over clean.

He wants to come back back first week of April to see us. I announced my plans for their spring break in April to take them to see my friend and also told him we will not stay longer than 4 weeks at our place in Antalya in July and I will be there with kids, they will not stay there without me. He can fly over in June to help me get them out there. He said yes ok to all. If we do break up, he said he wants nothing asset-wise and he just wants it written that all will go to our kids. I told him he will have to pay child support and he agreed he will 'do his best' about that. (obvs that is tbd). Custody wise, he will never steal kids /take kids etc. He knows they are better off with me. He said he lives with so much guilt and shame and cries all the time - but not enough to stop this apparently. I told him I suspected he has just blamed me for his depression and does he think cutting me out will just fix it and he kind of said that was maybe true. He said he knows he is doing wrong and feels that he will be punished for this from God and he expects to be. etc etc.  I told him if he introduces this particular woman to our children, ever,  I wlll tell our daughter (eventually, not at 10) that she was his secret AP while we were married. When she asks ab our divorce, I wlll not lie to protect him or her, and tell her the truth.

Ok so lots of blathering on here. I do wonder, is this a stage of MLC? or is this just a bog standard mid-life affair/men-opause? I really don't know anymore. The only thing I wil say is that the suddenness of this, the completely out of character this is (not to want a job, not to want to see his kids every day), personality changes, all the lies he told (he was an honest person before), the crying and deep depression, makes me think that this is something more. He told me he is glad I now know the truth. he is not monstering at me at all now. He is trying to kiss and hug me etc.

He is so much happier today, because he knows he is leaving soon and booked his ticket for Monday to get away and go see her. He is now high energy -he went from low energy wallower to high energy replay like overnight. I mean, it's like a different person than what's been here for 2 weeks.

I feel pure revision and disgust for him to be honest. He is not really sorry or repentant. He just wants to keep going like this. I don't think he believes I could ever leave him. Despite what he says, I don't think he really loves me or he would not do this to me, but at the same time, the guy he is now is like a diff version of the guy I've known for 15 years. He acts like he's 20-something, wears weird jewellry, and he is not living in reality. It's like he's completely escaping and convincing himself that this alternative reality is where he can live.

No one in my life will understand this. No one will ever understand how I can even leave the door open for him at all at this stage. I feel pathetic for even possibly going along with this for any amount of time. It is crushing my self esteem kind of. I really don't know what I'm doing right now.

I am setting boundaries, I am expressing my frustation, I am warning him that cake eating cannot continue indefinitely and I feel like I am getting no where. I do want him to go Monday, I just wish HE didn't want to if that makes sense.

Thanks in advance for any and all wisdom!