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Author Topic: My Story Growing #10

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My Story Growing #10
OP: November 01, 2020, 04:39:09 PM
Link to my old thread:  https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11489.0

I waited before starting my new thread - in order to have something profound but it just hasn’t come yet.
I am trying to tease out how to discern true love and trust.
Wondering if we ever really had true love, and believing that yes, we truly did.
I so inherently trusted and loved that man - with my whole heart.  And believing that he loved me and trusted me as well.
But looking back, my trust was maybe naive and pure.  Because I had no reason NOT to trust him.
But when does a dishonesty become damaging - if it was meant to be for our good.
Kind of like telling kids that there’s a Santa Clause...

So, my assignment now is to determine how to trust again; how to trust without controlling.
This is probably the hardest thing for me to understand.
I’ve always trusted, but I was always able to ask anything and see anything — right up until MLC.
Phone was open, computer was open, conversations were open.  There wasn’t anything hidden in our day-to-day world.  There were rare circumstances of things hidden, but easily dismissed at the time.
So, looking forward to potential new relationships (either with H and reconnection, or new dating). 
How does one really trust another person, without being controlling and insisting on complete transparency? 
Is it just a feeling that happens?
Is it a conversation? 
I’m looking forward to trying to dig deeper into this.

Thank you friends for joining along.
Any thoughts are appreciated, as well as any insight.

Sea

My story:
H and I met: 1984 Undergrad
Married 1990
3 kids: 1995, 1998, 2001
H deployed 2005
Things a little different after deployment; relationship strained but doing okay.
We moved to new state Fall 2016-our dream location
H looking for affair Spring 2017 (I found email to co-worker/subordinate)
Marriage counseling; individual counseling
Affair confirmed Fall 2017 - Different co-worker/subordinate
H moved out SPring 2018 after reading my posts on HS - he was deep into affair but denied
Took AP to different country Spring 2018 and she posted on FB so he could no longer deny.
H filed for Divorce Fall 2018
H bought a home to live with AP Winter 2018
Divorce complete Summer 2019
H engaged To AP late SPring 2020 and married Fall 2020.
Now vanished after being horrible monster up until the time he became engaged
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Growing #10
#1: November 01, 2020, 04:52:20 PM
Attaching Sea.

I'm fairly new at this, 9 months out from BD.   But what I have learnt is, this had nothing to do with us.   No matter what we did, or didn't do, had no bearing on this $h!te sandwich that was fed to us

What I have also learned is, we vacillate between wondering what we could have done, could we have avoided, etc. etc. 

So as a gentle reminder from a noob, this had nothing to do with us.   You did what a logical spouse would do, given the circumstances.  You tried to give a safe space, you tried to be an open book, and in a healthy relationship, it would be reciprocated, but as we know, when the crisis hits, there is nothing healthy about it.

I hear you when you ask about trust.  Its one of my biggest fears in moving forward with my life.   How could I trust my W again, if not my W, how can I trust my next partner?   I dont have the answers to that, because what this experience teaches me, nothing is guaranteed, what you feel today may not be what you feel tomorrow.

So rather than focusing on what the future holds, what it means, please remember, the security you feel today may not exist.   The insecurity you feel may not exist.   If it does, as the LBS, you are best suited to find a way to navigate through it.    Because at the end of the day, our MLC'ers have forced us into situations we never imagined existing.   Yet here we are, surviving and thriving

((hugs))
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Me (W) 44 - W 42
BD - Jan 17, 2020

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Growing #10
#2: November 01, 2020, 05:31:37 PM
LBS-Les -
Welcome and thank you for attaching.
I don’t regret anything I did, or who I am.
I did the best that I could or that I thought at the time.
I may do it differently, given what I know now, but that’s hindsight.

I feel secure, I feel happy, I feel proud and I love my kids.
I look forward to Thanksgiving and spending time with them.
The hardest thing will be when 2/3 of them leave to spend dessert with married H and wife/AP.
This is a new page in my life, and I will deal with it appropriately.
I guess I should be happy that I don’t need to worry about serving dessert and coffee, and will be alone with S19 to clean up and perhaps watch a movie...

And I wanted to add one thing.  My S25 recently tagged me on his IG story, and I looked at his friend list and XH is on there as a follower.  Then I looked at S22 and the same (only S22 also followed him back).  So I looked at H’s profile and he has no photo, and 3 posts (one which is from his wedding day 3 weeks ago).  The other two are very old and have been there for over 2 years I believe.  The thing that’s odd about that I once sent H a IG message regarding S17’s concert, and H insisted that he didn’t have an IG account and didn’t get it.  It is a different account and has a profile photo from 2005 and no posts yet several followers.  So strange and I wonder if he even knows that he has that old account.  He obviously isn’t active on his newer one, except to post his wedding photo and follow his son’s accounts.  It isn’t a private account so I can see all 3 photos.  Perhaps this was for my benefit?  IDK, it’s just weird.  My account is private, so he is unable to see what I post.
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« Last Edit: November 01, 2020, 05:40:54 PM by Seahorse »

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Growing #10
#3: November 01, 2020, 05:36:07 PM
Sea, I completely get what you’re saying.  My h was always so transparent until he wasn’t and when he wasn’t it was for a reason.  I believe boundaries in relationships are important.  If it doesn’t just come naturally in your next relationship for transparency, communication of your wants and needs are so important.  Being clear with what you want in a relationship early on pays big dividends later.  At least that’s my perspective.
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Married 21 years
Husband is 44
Me-40
4 kids 7-16 years old
BD-October 2018-ILYBNIL, wants a divorce, this after I found out about OW 1(EA), OW2(PA) no longer together. 
April 2019 He got an apartment and moved out.
Oct 2019-Apologized for a years worth of monster behavior.  Still wants to start divorce this Spring, is distant, but friendly.  Tries more with kids, but superficial.
2020-He has continued to help out when asked and be polite.  I do think he questions his choices at times.  I do not believe he has OW.
Oct 30 2020-He wants to get back together.  I am unsure.
August 2021-He has shown very gradual progress over the last 1 1/2 years.  I did allow him home on a trial bases and in another room.  We go to counseling, I do not currently allow touch.  So far so good.

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Growing #10
#4: November 01, 2020, 09:05:37 PM
Sea,

IMO, you don’t learn to trust other people again.....you learn to trust yourself.  You learn to listen to your gut and what your intuition is telling you.
But trusting others....that’s a choice.

The trust that was broken was my trust in myself, being able to trust my choices, understanding the signals that my stbx was telling me.

But biggest obstacle, was a lifetime of gaslighting. Being told it was live when it was abuse I experienced as a child. Being sold a false version of intimacy. Being told someone loved me while they made plans to leave me. I had to spend some time dissecting each of those things love, intimacy, how a person treats you when they want you, to learn what it should have been. And lastly learning words over actions.

What I have to rebuild.....from the ground up....is trusting myself.  I have no idea how much of my marriage was a lie, how much of who I was married too was true, or if he ever even loved me at all or was just using me. I don’t know.....

When I trust myself, other people can still hurt me....but I won’t be destroyed like at BD. And if I listen to my gut....I’ll already know what’s coming.
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Me 37
H 37
S16
Wallower/Chaos kid
EA discovered 3/31/2019
BD March 31 2019
He left 10/6/2020
Status: I’m done. Stbxh remorseful, texts and apologizes a lot, is in therapy and several treatment teams.
“God allows us to feel the frailty of human love so we’ll appreciate the strength of his.” C.S. Lewis

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Growing #10
#5: November 01, 2020, 09:51:12 PM
Following along Seahorse.

Trust is a tough one for me. "Once bitten, twice shy, right?" "Fool me twice, shame on me?"

I had a situation where the woman I was dating was texting her kids while we were watching tv and I completely tortured myself wondering if she was texting some other guy. It was tough to put those monkey thoughts in their cages.

Ultimately, I think trust is something built with time. It's a response to someone's trustworthiness. Are you familiar with Brene Brown's marble jar metaphor?(https://brenebrown.com/videos/anatomy-trust-video/) I'm finding that learning how to trust again is something done a little at a time. I honestly don't know if I'll ever be as trusting as I was pre-BD, but I'm finding small steps in the right direction is a realistic goal for me.
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« Last Edit: November 01, 2020, 09:55:28 PM by PJ Will Be OK »
"I'm slowly learning to expect nothing and appreciate everything."

Together 28 years, married 27. Two adult kids, ours

BD #1: 2016 - EA  |  BD #2: 2018 - FA

W moved out - June 2019 | OM#3 - July 2019
W asks for divorce - August 2019 | Divorce final - September 2019 | Moving on

My thread: https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11537.new#new

New Here? Read this! http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1149.0

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Growing #10
#6: November 01, 2020, 10:22:43 PM
I agree with others that the key is probably about feeling you can trust yourself again....that you have the skills and mindset to trust your own judgment and manage your own boundaries. And I agree with PJ n the value of Brene Briwn's work on trust.....in fact I think I remember she did an online session somewhere that talks about using the same principles in trusting yourself.

Like you, I was a very open person before. Looking back, that was simply bc I felt safe being me. After BD, most of us probably don't feel inherently safe for quite a long time do we? Whichnis normal and understandable imho.

I ha e found fwiw - with the exclusion of a romantic relationship bc I am not in one  :) - that as I started to heal, trust came naturally and I defaulted to something closer to my normal baseline. The only difference I think is that I choose the fields and doors and people where I am open again. The problem truthfully was never my trust....it was hos long I let others use my trust as a weapon. And that said so much more about them than about me. Pearls before swine does not change the nature of the pearls lol.
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« Last Edit: November 01, 2020, 10:24:00 PM by Treasur »
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.
Healing and growing found here https://littleplotbythesea.wordpress.com

"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

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Growing #10
#7: November 02, 2020, 05:48:54 AM
Thank you everyone for your thoughts.
Perhaps it’s not the trust so much but the control that I need to work on.
I am a very trusting person, almost to a fault.
I am worried about my need for control.
I think one of the reasons I always trusted H was because we had this open dialogue/phone/calendar where we always knew where the other one was.  Never asked for, just given.  So, I think without that, I would be very anxious - and that’s controlling at it’s core.  BUT, I don’t know how to NOT be controlling in that aspect and whether that’s a trust issue.  Just something I need to work on I guess.
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Growing #10
#8: November 02, 2020, 06:12:28 AM
If it helps, Sea, control is almost always about safety in some way....
So you could flip the issue round to 'what do I still need to do now to feel safer?' Vs 'I need to stop being controlling' (and, out of interest, are you seen by anyone other than your xh as excessively controlling? Oh, and excluding teenagers too lol. I just ask bc it is a pretty common bit of gaslighting blame that is doled out to LBS and not always accurate writ large?)
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T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.
Healing and growing found here https://littleplotbythesea.wordpress.com

"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

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Re: Growing #10
#9: November 02, 2020, 06:41:40 AM
Seahorse I just read the 20 signs you are a controlling person, none of this sounds like you at all!

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/friendship-20/201506/20-signs-your-partner-is-controlling

Has anyone outside of your XH, or as Treasur added, your teenagers ever called you controlling?
You do know most MLCer's see us as controlling, right?  It's part of their made up reason to do what they are doing.

From what you've explained, to me, is just a VERY organized person.  Very organized people do feel anxiety when things are not organized.  My sister is very much like that.  Although she is a bit on the OCD side.  ha ha

Hugs
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A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

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Growing #10
#10: November 02, 2020, 08:39:08 AM
Quote
How does one really trust another person, without being controlling and insisting on complete transparency? 

Sea, I get it because I, too, sweated over the question.  Until my very patient IC said, ‘Acorn, don’t think so much. JUST LIVE.’  Those words woke me up from living in my head so much. 

A kind of understanding about trust came to me eventually without trying.  The paradox, as others have said, was that it really was not about trusting others, it was about trusting myself — my intuition, my common sense, my judgement, my objectivity, my autonomy in decision making. 

Trusting my H came to me, unawares.  (I didn’t think I could ever trust him again...)  It’s the accumulation of numerous daily evidences, gathered unconsciously.  It was the way he lived his life, not in what he said or what he showed as evidence.  He demonstrated his trustworthiness by living it 24/7.

How does anyone trust another person?  It’s not in written promises, a handful of actions or material evidences.  There are a million ways to deceive and if they want to lie, they will find a way.  The real evidence is in the way they live their everyday lives.  That will show their integrity or the lack of it. 

(((((HUGS)))))
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Feb 2015: BD. 
Dec 2017: Seriously reconnecting

H never left home.

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Growing #10
#11: November 02, 2020, 08:44:07 AM
You know, it’s funny, you know internally if you can trust someone.  So it really is about trusting your own instincts again.  I mean I knew when my husbands behavior turned shady.

Before then he was willingly transparent.  So was I. 
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Married 21 years
Husband is 44
Me-40
4 kids 7-16 years old
BD-October 2018-ILYBNIL, wants a divorce, this after I found out about OW 1(EA), OW2(PA) no longer together. 
April 2019 He got an apartment and moved out.
Oct 2019-Apologized for a years worth of monster behavior.  Still wants to start divorce this Spring, is distant, but friendly.  Tries more with kids, but superficial.
2020-He has continued to help out when asked and be polite.  I do think he questions his choices at times.  I do not believe he has OW.
Oct 30 2020-He wants to get back together.  I am unsure.
August 2021-He has shown very gradual progress over the last 1 1/2 years.  I did allow him home on a trial bases and in another room.  We go to counseling, I do not currently allow touch.  So far so good.

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Growing #10
#12: November 02, 2020, 02:46:26 PM
Thank you Treasur and Thunder -
I wasn’t an over controlling person, but (as you said, Thunder, was a very organized person).
I HAD to be to keep our schedules straight - 3 boys playing soccer, two working parents, one with call...
I also handled the finances, so had to question about spending, etc towards the end. 

I had a great session with my IC today.
Cried almost the whole time.
Realizing that I am upset with myself for not seeing the red flags in our relationship all along, BECAUSE I had trust and believed anything that I was told.
I was mad at myself for not questioning anything but simply accepting explanations.

My IC was able to ask me a LOT of great questions about how I was feeling and what I wanted to address.
So, overall, it was really good.
She said that it’s a good thing that I am able to NOW turn blame from myself for the loss of our marriage to being angry with H for the destruction of the family and the lies and gaslighting.

So, overall a good (but emotionally trying) day for me.
I’ll get there, and interesting that it’s taken me so long to address these issues.
I guess the healing and sadness needed to be addressed first.

Thank you all for following.
I was able to have some self-care, take care of some things around the house, and take some photographs of the birds in my back yard today after a short hike to a quarry.  Great day overall!
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Growing #10
#13: November 05, 2020, 04:10:00 PM
Well I got a text from (x)H yesterday about needing to finish an issue up that was unresolved at the time of divorce (1-1/2 years ago).

As stupid as it is, I was so excited to get a text from my almost-vanishes husband.  I haven’t heard from him since he got remarried almost 1 month ago. 
I do think it’s easier to remain detached if you don’t hear from them...  But I was so happy!

I waited over 24 hours to answer and gave him the times that worked for me.  Good patience, good boundaries.
But I do miss the man I married....
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Growing #10
#14: November 05, 2020, 05:31:53 PM
I have never been able to figure out why I am "happy" when I hear from him. But that is my truth as well and I don't need an answer....

I am also "happier" when I am with him. I do have contact with him and it's confusing to me..but then again..we spent 35 really good years together..he made me happy during those years...I still have that cellular memory I guess that makes me smile.

I was golfing today and a woman said to me "you still love him" and I nodded my head..yes I do.

Quote
But I do miss the man I married..

Likewise  :(
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« Last Edit: November 06, 2020, 04:41:02 AM by Seahorse »
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

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Growing #10
#15: November 06, 2020, 04:43:42 AM
Xyzcf -

Thanks for affirming that my feelings can be found elsewhere.

I WISH that we also still had contact, at least occasionally.
I am imagining that our next contact will be either a wedding of our sons, S19 (freshman) graduation from college (hopefully) in 4 years or his mother’s funeral - which would make me so sad.  She is older but quite healthy, so no reason to feel that would be in the near future.

Anyway - it gives me time to work on my PIES — right!?!  ;)
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Re: Growing #10
#16: November 06, 2020, 04:15:41 PM
Sea, I think it's very hard for the LBS to trust again, because I think so many of us were so trustworthy. We knew there were bad people, but we honestly did not think that our main person was one of them, even if they had FOO issues that we were aware of. They would not hurt or double cross us.

I completely feel this:
'Realizing that I am upset with myself for not seeing the red flags in our relationship all along, BECAUSE I had trust and believed anything that I was told. I was mad at myself for not questioning anything but simply accepting explanations.'
Me, too, I'm angry with myself for not having done anything about the red flags. I did see them, but didn't know what they were, and never, ever thought they were my H cheating and about to destroy our family, kids included. I was so naive, so believing, so accepting as you say. I will never be like that again. Shame.

I don't know if I was ever truly loved or just used, but I did know something was off and prayed for a miracle. I won't be that Disney fueled again. Now, when I sense something is wrong/up/about to happen, I will prepare myself. If I can do something to help the situation, I will do my best. If I can't do anything, I will be aware of what's happening, and accept it. But that is a whole different thing from knowing my person might have all sorts of problems, but believing he would not destroy me, or have never ever had any regard for me.

I guess my trusting capacity would now come from my knowing when something is up and believing those feelings, not letting it go, pushing for answers, or if the answers I need are not given, I will walk away.
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Married 1989, together since 1984 
BD May 2014,
D26, D23, S16
OW Physical Affair same one. He and she said she turned 34 the month of BD. She turned 52 this year.

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Growing #10
#17: November 07, 2020, 09:48:43 AM
Attaching

I to wonder about trust but I think it would be easier to extend it to a new person.

I like what someone said about learning to trust yourself, your intuition, etc.
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Growing #10
#18: November 08, 2020, 05:04:41 AM
Milly and Faith -
Thank you for posting.

I do think that trusting ourselves is important (as Acorn wisely pointed out).
It's about trusting that I am able to make smart(er) choice, trusting that I will have safe boundaries in the future and trusting myself to really scrutinize any red flags that may pop up.
That all makes sense...

So currently, I'm trying to parse out why my H will text me about every 6-8 months about resolving the one issue left from the divorce.  It was something that was split (evenly) by me, but he didn't like the way it was split.  We will go to a specialist and have them divide it equitably which is fine with me - IDC. 

Every time I give him dates that I am available, and they pass without any action on his part to get it done.  Then a few months later I get another text and the process continues.

Is this a form of anchor check - even though he's remarried now and we haven't been in contact for over a month now - except that text?  In 2 days, he'll have been married for a month.  UGH...

Perhaps next time I will give him the task of giving me his dates of availability; perhaps then it will happen...
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« Last Edit: November 08, 2020, 05:05:50 AM by Seahorse »

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Re: Growing #10
#19: November 08, 2020, 06:49:06 AM
Help me understand.  The divorce is final.  Assets divided and agreed upon.  Is there a need to entertain a redivision bc he is not satisfied with the terms?  IMHO, I would tell him that the terms were previously agreed upon and that what’s done is done.  You’re kind. 
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Growing #10
#20: November 08, 2020, 07:21:34 AM
Gracie3:
Well, because they were in my possession, I split them how was beneficial to me (financially equal however), but he didn't think it was fair.  (The lot that I chose took up less space so more convenient for me.)  So, I told him to send me his version of fair, and I'd be happy to entertain it.  He wanted it split exactly equal parts, but there are odd numbers, so not possible.  We decided to go to a specialist, but he hasn't been able to make that happen yet, despite me giving him multiple available dates for me.  I continue to hold what I chose as my fair half. 

Just mind boggling how I can do everything I can to accommodate him, without making the appointment, but it still doesn't happen.  That's why it may be best for me to have him give me dates, so I can make the appointment and get it over with and he doesn't have a reason to contact me any longer...I love having contact with him, but it's not healthy for me...
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Growing #10
#21: November 08, 2020, 08:07:45 AM
I'd be tempted to change the approach too.
First of all, I would guess there are/were a ton of things you did not see as 'fair' so pffft to his 'feelings'. Not your circus. So, you have the option to say no....that time is now gone. And it is no longer your job to accommodate him is it? If he thinks he has a legal case, he can pursue that if he wishes. Tbh it sounds like MLC BS sadz nonsense to me.

If you want to consider it in order to get it 'done' or get him to go away or try to avoid legal stuff, then I too would push the ball back firmly in his court but put an explicit and written timelimit on it. So, he arranges the specialist appointment, and pays for it, by x date and gives you three possible appointment options by y date with z days notice. And if that happens, you reach a final agreement by x.2 date. If not, that time window is also gone. And I would keep the timelines short  :) and then do absolutely nothing other than respond to whatever he arranges.

Are you running a small sweepstake lol?  ;D
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T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.
Healing and growing found here https://littleplotbythesea.wordpress.com

"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

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Growing #10
#22: November 08, 2020, 09:32:07 AM
Treasur -
Thanks for the advice.
One of us did actually run it past the lawyers and they made a joke to each other about it.  (They said they'd take it and split it between to relieve us of our responsibilities!)
No legal case there...

If I don't hear from him by the last date I gave him, which was 12/12, AND he approaches me again (I will not bother to approach him...), then I will suggest he give me at least 3 dates that he is available, and if I am available any of those, he can reach out to the specialist to see if he is available as well.  BUT, also that I need to know within 2 weeks of when I tell him what date(s) I'm available.
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Growing #10
#23: November 10, 2020, 08:03:29 AM
So... 

My middle son was over for dinner last night with his GF.
They both know how devastated I was by my xHs MLC and his divorcing me and eventually remarrying ow (1 month ago today).

He was discussing why I had hung the pictures in my new house of the family and a smaller photo of the two of us together (collage with family); he said that he thought that having pictures of his dad on the walls would make me sad.
I explained that it doesn't really because those memories were still good memories despite what had happened.

I also said that not that long ago, I wouldn't have been able to look at those photos.

Is this weird or unhealthy --  to have photos of me and my xH on the walls?

I just feel like taking those photos down wouldn't erase the memories or the good times.

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Growing #10
#24: November 10, 2020, 09:26:37 AM
I think it possibly shows your heart is still with him.  My pictures are down and that shows where I currently am as well.
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Me-40
4 kids 7-16 years old
BD-October 2018-ILYBNIL, wants a divorce, this after I found out about OW 1(EA), OW2(PA) no longer together. 
April 2019 He got an apartment and moved out.
Oct 2019-Apologized for a years worth of monster behavior.  Still wants to start divorce this Spring, is distant, but friendly.  Tries more with kids, but superficial.
2020-He has continued to help out when asked and be polite.  I do think he questions his choices at times.  I do not believe he has OW.
Oct 30 2020-He wants to get back together.  I am unsure.
August 2021-He has shown very gradual progress over the last 1 1/2 years.  I did allow him home on a trial bases and in another room.  We go to counseling, I do not currently allow touch.  So far so good.

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Growing #10
#25: November 10, 2020, 09:34:34 AM
Joy -
I can see where that would be the thought, but I really am not still with him.
I've moved on...
I loved him dearly...
While I do occasionally think about him and what we had, I do not "pine" for him.
I don't care what he's doing, don't want to know, don't look, don't text, don't email, don't ask...

I'm in a good place and happy with where I am.
Of course, that could change in the future, so maybe there is some truth to a tread of attachment.
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Growing #10
#26: November 10, 2020, 10:29:56 AM
That’s good Sea!  I’m glad you’e in a good place💕💕💕
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« Last Edit: November 10, 2020, 10:57:40 AM by Finding Joy »
Married 21 years
Husband is 44
Me-40
4 kids 7-16 years old
BD-October 2018-ILYBNIL, wants a divorce, this after I found out about OW 1(EA), OW2(PA) no longer together. 
April 2019 He got an apartment and moved out.
Oct 2019-Apologized for a years worth of monster behavior.  Still wants to start divorce this Spring, is distant, but friendly.  Tries more with kids, but superficial.
2020-He has continued to help out when asked and be polite.  I do think he questions his choices at times.  I do not believe he has OW.
Oct 30 2020-He wants to get back together.  I am unsure.
August 2021-He has shown very gradual progress over the last 1 1/2 years.  I did allow him home on a trial bases and in another room.  We go to counseling, I do not currently allow touch.  So far so good.

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Re: Growing #10
#27: November 10, 2020, 10:44:12 AM
Sea you do what ever you want and feel comfortable with.

You'll know when the day comes to take them down.  That is totally up to you and as long as they don't make you sad, what are you hurting?

Hugs
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Growing #10
#28: November 10, 2020, 11:10:20 AM
Sea, great conversation about trust, control and red flags. I relate to all of that. There is some good food for thought/insight here!

As for the photos- I don't think it's weird or unhealthy.  I have some things in my home that are very special to me, that directly relate to H and our life. But they are in my home because of the memory that I treasure, not because they were a part of H and I. We had a life with these spouses, we have good memories of things (and them), if a photo, artifact, trinket brings to mind those good memories, and no longer causes us distress when we look at it, what's the harm, IMHO. Now if you have a shrine or dart board with photo's set up... that would be a different story. Lol.

Hugs N Prayers,
FN
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Growing #10
#29: November 10, 2020, 03:14:42 PM
Now if you have a shrine or dart board with photo's set up... that would be a different story. Lol.

Uh-oh, I better take that dart board down. ;)

Sea, I agree. You do what brings you peace and joy.  No one really knows the right answer for anyone else anyway. We all walk this path our own special way. Your sweet son just wants his Mama to be happy. A kind, caring soul. I have people in my life who are baffled that I have not yet filed for D and out there dating. But, it's just not something I am ready for. And I've been at this even longer than you. All in our own time.

Trust is an interesting thing. I think I was a lot like you--trust people to a fault.  I think I may have lacked discernment. But I may take a look at that Brene Brown article too. I think we are just better when we can trust. And like Courage said, first we have to trust ourselves. I don't think I fully trust myself yet.

My humble opinion on that text every 8 months? Anchor check. He is only 3 years in or so.  Still in replay so he's still really weird. I always try to assign some meaning to my H's antics. But at the end of the day, he is in MLC, addicted to his OW (along with alcohol and probably gambling), and has the emotional maturity of a 13 year old boy.

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Growing #10
#30: November 10, 2020, 03:43:32 PM
Thank you KIT, Thunder, FN and Joy -

No dart board, just pictures.
But I DID hang them up with Command Strips so I can easily remove them without leaving holes in the wall - should I feel that I want to.

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Re: Growing #10
#31: November 10, 2020, 03:49:59 PM
Sea, I agree with the others, do whatever feels good to you. I wish I could put up a picture with my H in it, but I just can't. It triggers my pain. I guess I still have work to do. I prefer to remove every sign of my H, so I think you are progressing, and no judgement if one day you change your mind. What I love about living in a new home is that I can experiment and change things according to my moods. We can do whatever is best for us.

Nice your S and GF came for dinner, and sweet boy to be thinking of your feelings.
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Growing #10
#32: November 10, 2020, 03:51:39 PM
I just got off phone with son in college (freshman) about 16 hours away.

He kept telling me that there was nothing wrong, but finally got out of him that he is behind in all of his classes and has no motivation to change that or do any work.  He doesn't want to go outside because of two factors - the election and covid.  The city he is in is particularly large and known for riots, and the covid population is exponentially increasing.  Thus, he hasn't been out of his dorm room or seen his friends in several days/a week.  I think that is only part of the problem.

As a junior in HS, he had a similar episode around divorce, his father and MLC.  He ended up okay, but very depressed and won't go on medication.  At this time he is not seeing a counselor and does not want to.

So, my question is how do I, personally, deal with this?  I know that it's not mine to deal with, but I feel so helpless for him and so far away.  I hurts my heart to see him like this, and if he fails, he will lose his funding for college and I don't think that he could get that back.  I try to stress the importance but it only gets him angry as he knows the consequences but just can't make himself do it.  I don't think he's just lazy, but he is lacking motivation and I'm not sure why now that he's away from his father, as that used to be the excuse...

Any thoughts from those of you who have navigated kids lacking motivation in school would be appreciated. 

Thank you,
Sea
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Re: Growing #10
#33: November 11, 2020, 02:29:20 AM
Oh, Sea, how stressful. I think these times are very hard on young people, too, especially those in the first year of their new schools. My D's boyfriend's brother, who flew off to the UK in September to do my D's very same degree in the same school, is failing all his classes, too. Isn't motivated, hasn't met people because of the restrictions and his family are pretty desperate. My D has been trying to help him catch up with his school work but she says the problem is he isn't getting into it. This is something that the have been talking about here on TV, and urging that the first years be allowed to carry on classes in person as it is such a fundamental year for the young person to integrate. I don't think your S is unusual at all.

I realize that you have the additional pressure of the funding, otherwise I would say, bring him home and reapply to a different course for next year. Does he give any specific reasons for why he's not doing well? Does he like the course, are there any subjects he likes more than others, is there a professor he can talk to about his situation? Is it possible to do school online from home right now?

When my oldest would get very depressed, her studies suffered. I found that at those times I did have to intervene and be super gentle and help her make a schedule for her studies and give her solutions. I had to literally tell her what time she'd get up, the foods that she would need to eat, the treats/breaks she would have during the day, camomile tea before bed. She needed the direction from me and regular communication from me to keep her on tract until she was out of that down phase.

If you can talk to an IC, they might have advice, too.
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Growing #10
#34: November 11, 2020, 06:28:45 AM
Thanks Millie:

I spoke to him last night and he was in a little better mood.
Of course, he should have been doing his homework, but he was playing video games with BFFs from high school.  I was a little disappointed but happy that he was in a better spirit. He had been doing homework earlier in the evening, so all was not totally lost.

I offered to discontinue school after this semester but he does not want to "quit".  We discussed that it was an option should he decide that he wants to return after a year (classes are offset so can't return after 1 semester off).  I encouraged him to talk to his advisor, which he said he will make appointment with her.

So, I'm trying to practice my LBS lessons and not control, show him unconditional love, let go and let God.  I just want him to be healthy and happy.  So much more important than a degree.
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Growing #10
#35: November 11, 2020, 07:57:56 AM
Sea, Relieved that he was in a better mood when you last spoke.  Good use of LBS skills.  I am sure freshman year in the time of covid is exacerbating all the normal freshman feelings.  I hope he contacts his advisor.  IF you have concerns, you should be able to speak with University Counseling.  Not necessarily to "report" him in any way, but for guidance as to what parents can do or any concerning signs.  Or even check their website for suggestions.   They often have "counselors on call" who can answer quick questions and provide advice to those who love their students. 
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Growing #10
#36: November 11, 2020, 10:39:23 AM
Thanks Mal:
My finding has been that the schools want parents to be hands off and often won't discuss ANYTHING (not even school unrelated) with parents as they want the students to develop coping strategies and skills.
Also, my son is very much of the opinion that he wants to be the one directing things, so he gets upset if I step in.   >:(

I'll keep an eye on him and check on tonight after work.
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Re: Growing #10
#37: November 11, 2020, 02:59:14 PM
Sea, (((HUGS))),

I wonder if some of the C19 isolation and election drama is kicking up feelings from and reflections on the divorce times, for your S. Maybe also just that the holidays are incoming and how this year they each will be so different from previous years in so many ways. I know the kids have it tough this year with the admonition against in-person socializing, and with regard to school it’s a real shame. Kids get so much and share so much vitality when they are able to be physically with and near their friends and peers.

I have it solidly from D that distance learning is just not the same as classroom instruction experience. She strives anyway, but, she attends classroom time from home either here or at her dad’s. I think if she were away, it would be similar to what your S is feeling. The pandemic has taken away a lot and I think it’s harder when we aren’t with our people.

Other kids in my family are in other states or counties and so their experiences are a little different. Two have always been homeschooled so this hasn’t changed too much for them. Two flew back from uni to continue classes from parental homes. Two others decided not to leave parental home and are doing essential worker stuff for the local communities instead.

If it were me and D having this conversation, I would tell her it’s up to her, what she wants to do, and that the front door is always unlocked. ;) I’ve found that often emboldens anyone to power up and do what they feel is best for their chosen path. Like, I’m here for you and you have a place here, always. If it’s too weird out there or it doesn’t feel ok, just come home. We’ll sort it out however you need.

I’ve got prayers up for you and for your S. This year has been a doozy, I know.
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Growing #10
#38: November 11, 2020, 04:36:06 PM
Terra --
Thank you.  That's basically the discussion I just had with my son.

So, he sounds a LITTLE bit better.  He did some work today.
We talked about needing to do things that you don't necessarily want to do and putting the fun things (video games) aside for brief period while you tend to tasks that need to be done. 
We also talked about him schooling from here instead of in the dorm -- alone -- in a  very high risk city (covid) -- away from friends.  He said - "yeah, I didn't really get to live in that house much", so it sounded like he felt much better about knowing that was a possibility - but he hasn't committed to it yet.  Still need to talk to his advisor.

I so much appreciate everyone's concern and thoughts.
It's tough for me, worried so much about him.

********************

I also got a phone call from one of my better friends at my last state.
He called to see how I was given the marriage of xH to ow.
He said that one of his coworkers showed him H's wedding picture on social media and that is how he found out.
The thing that really upset me is that his coworker was MY friend, not my xHs (met him only once), so why is she even on his social media?  It really gets my panties in a knot!  I feel like it's just gossip central and asked why people "back home" are talking about things like that, and me, but nobody has the decency to reach out and see if I'm okay.  GRRR  Put me in a really funky mood.
Of course, because then I started thinking about xH and ow and how everyone is now aware of the fact he's married and I'm in the past. 
Then we started talking about work and how that's been a nightmare for me.  He's encouraging me to move to another state so I can get a better job and not be near xH and ow.  I love the state I'm in, and have a new house, so it's really difficult for me to leave right now.

Okay - enough rambling for me.
Just wanted to get it off my chest and maybe feel better about the funk I'm in.

Have a great night...
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Growing #10
#39: November 13, 2020, 01:58:08 PM
Well -
I deleted (after storing) my recent text chain from H (8-20 to 11-20).
I deleted his contact in my phone/computer/etc. -- That's kind of a joke because I have all his numbers and address memorized.  But, a small step in further detaching.

My biggest hurdle right now (not really new) is how to act with MIL and SIL.
I always get them all Christmas gifts, but now that there is a new Sister-In-Law for them, it feels a little bit awkward.  Like the would only be reciprocating because I got them something.  I would only do it for me, but don't want them to feel awkward in the process, or like I was trying to buy/keep their relationship and step on the toes of their new "family" member.

Just trying to figure it all out.  Probably will still get them something, but just don't want it to be awkward...

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Growing #10
#40: November 16, 2020, 04:43:08 PM
So --

I just got a facebook friend suggestion through my email for my husband's new wife, using her married name (my old name).
Oh - and her profile photo is their wedding photo.
What a trigger, just when I though things were going so well.
I haven't heard from him in awhile, and even though I have a FB account, the only thing I go on it for is marketplace when I want to sell something.  I NEVER look at their profiles, even though they are public.
Why am I a suggested friend when I have not searched her and only have 2 common friends (S22 GF and IDK who else - didn't look)?

UGH - So traumatic...

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Re: Growing #10
#41: November 16, 2020, 05:04:24 PM
UGH, why would you be a suggested friend, Seahorse???
I'm not sure how that even happens.

I'm really sorry hon, just delete anything like that. Not worth giving it your time.

{{Big Hug}}

Can you block them both so that doesn't happen again??
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Growing #10
#42: November 16, 2020, 05:14:31 PM
I'm not even sure what blocking them would do.
Since my profile is private, and I haven't posted in years, I didn't think there was any reason since they can't see anything, nor is there anything new to see...

I did delete it - I was just strange.
My sister said perhaps she was suggested because she has the same last name as my kids.
Didn't make me feel much better... :(

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Growing #10
#43: November 16, 2020, 07:26:22 PM
If you didn't look at her profile and you only had a couple friends in common, she was suggested because she was looking at your profile.  I would block her if you feel uncomfortable.
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Growing #10
#44: November 16, 2020, 07:31:54 PM
Ugh. So sorry that happened.

I got a friend suggestion for OM2 once. I really wish FB would leave us alone to pick our own friends.
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Together 28 years, married 27. Two adult kids, ours

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My thread: https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11537.new#new

New Here? Read this! http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1149.0

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Growing #10
#45: November 17, 2020, 05:46:00 AM
FW - I was wondering about that because I heard that was a possibility.
She could have just been looking for new "relatives" with the same last new name, IDK.
I'm not sure that blocking would do anything other than not letting me see those, but it's kind of nice to think she may be monkey braining...  Since I'm private, she can't see anything anyway...

PJ - Right - let me pick my own friends.

I hate social media sometimes... 
I am in a better mood today - worked on my Pies this morning (physical) and felt great going to work. 

Thank you friends for hoping me through.
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Growing #10
#46: November 17, 2020, 07:08:14 AM
First of all, (((((HUGS))))), Sea.

I’m glad you feel better already after an unexpected trigger found you.  Believe it or not. these mean little triggers can work FOR you.  I personally see them as a diagnostic test of sorts to see how far you have come in terms of healing and moving forward.  Look how you found a way to deal with it by proactively engaging in simple normal activities.  They are actions of a positive and resilient person.  I’m truly proud of you! 

It’s OK to be triggered.  Triggers often come out of left field and there is not much you can do to avoid that.  Having said that, how you choose to deal with it is important and you have chosen wisely, my friend.  Just don’t let yourself monkey-brain about the possibility of OW’s monkey-braining, if you see what I mean.  I get it.  I really do.  I used cope with that by visualizing a huge STOP sign and doing controlled breathing to chase out those pesky little monkeys from my mind.  Everyone has their unique way of dealing with triggers and I’m glad you have found your own. 
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Growing #10
#47: November 17, 2020, 08:41:12 AM
Sea,,, ugh, I would be shaken and traumatized too even 10 yrs from now if I saw that even if I had zero feelings for my h.  I get a reaction just imagining that happening.      My bff was in Phuket when the tsunami hit in Dec 2002.   It was a few days of terrifying disorientation for her and her two pre-teen children.   18 yrs later she still cannot talk much about it without shaking, nor can she relax anywhere near an ocean.  Clearly PTSD and it’s a ‘gift’ we also get as an LBS. I hope it’s short lived Sea and you are back on track quickly.   Hugs. Anon
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Growing #10
#48: November 19, 2020, 05:08:33 PM
Acorn and Anon -
Thanks for your thoughts.
The constant thought of that suggestion lingered for about 2 days, then gone.
I can still see it, in my mind, but only if I ask myself to recall it - in other words, it is not in the forefront of my mind.

I found out that there is a likelihood that xH and wife were exposed to covid (or have it), so I texted xH last night to tell him that I heard about the outbreak and hoped for his health and safety.  He said he was not positive, to which I replied "great" and that was that.
I accomplished my goal to let him know my concern, and he replied in kind.
Nothing further needed or wanted,
It was kind of a good feeling to be able to drop it and not really think any further about it. 
At least I feel safer knowing my kids won't knowingly be exposed to it at Thanksgiving time...

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Growing #10
#49: November 23, 2020, 03:53:36 PM
I moved my S19 half way across the country (17 hour drive) from his dorm at college back to home state so he can school-at-home with me for the rest of the year.  Long ordeal decided Friday night, flight Saturday am, clean out dorm Saturday noon then drive 17 hours in rental car arrived at midnight last night.

In the midst of this all, got a text from H stating that he understands that S19 will be in state for remainder of school year.  I acknowledged.  From then until today, I have gotten texts about coparenting and my role in keeping him informed, and eventhough S19s an adult he is still  a dependent and I need to let H know when he moves from state to state, etc.  I stated that S19 is an adult and has been in communication with H, so there was no need to put myself in the middle.  I got more texting about my responsibility and how I don't understand anything, and how come I have to make coparenting difficult and won't cooperate... 

I'm torn because I really don't have a desire to talk to him, but I do appreciate him giving S19 his GI bill which pays for half of college.  It's really an awkward situation, and one that I am unable to navigate well. 

What I want to say is:

I don’t mind coparenting.

You have to understand that I gave you everything that I was and everything that I had.  You were my best friend and my entire being.  Then you sh*t on me and blew up our family.  So, please forgive me if I’ve finally gotten to the point where I don’t really enjoy communicating with you.  Not once, in OVER two years, have you asked me how I am.  After 28+ years of marriage and 34 years of friendship, you would think that I deserve at least that.  So, please forgive my lack of enthusiasm in communicating with you.
That being said - I will try to be better at coparenting our adult son until he has graduated.  I had assumed that I could step out from the middle once you two were communicating again through text and occasional lunches, but obviously I am unable to do so.


I am pretty sure this will make him angry, and he'll feel like I'm rehashing relationship issues again.  I also think that I probably should wait and send my reply once he's at work so ow doesn't get involved immediately.

I spoke, earlier, to another LBS from the site.  His suggestion was to just do the "okay" and let it be without any further expenditure of energy.

Thoughts?  Too condescending?  Too honest?  Too desperate? 
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Re: Growing #10
#50: November 23, 2020, 04:48:41 PM
Personally, I would not respond.  Your son is a legal adult.  Glad he gave him his GI Bill but I assume he doesn’t pay child support.  Co-parenting with an absent still recently dad who doesn’t pay child support.  Again, I don’t think I would engage that.  I’d want to haha but I’d let it go without any reaction.  Thinking of you!!  Sending good vibes your way. 
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Growing #10
#51: November 24, 2020, 07:53:53 AM
I would be very tempted to respond in much the same way, but I have to agree that you are probably better off not responding. He isn’t the authority on coparenting, he is in no position to tell you how to do it “correctly,” and really he’s not in a position to tell anyone how to handle adult responsibilities in a mature and healthy way.

There’s nothing wrong with your son being the point of contact. It’s different when they’re children, but even though your S is still a dependent, he is no longer a minor. And I say that not as someone who has kids, but as someone who has been the young adult child in a similar situation.
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#52: November 24, 2020, 08:05:09 AM
I wouldn’t acknowledge it either.  Your son is 19, unless you are in a state that requires him to pay child support through college.  Possibly your divorce decree states that he is a dependent and you have certain coparenting responsibilities through college, if not then simply put, you do not.  You get to decide. 

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April 2019 He got an apartment and moved out.
Oct 2019-Apologized for a years worth of monster behavior.  Still wants to start divorce this Spring, is distant, but friendly.  Tries more with kids, but superficial.
2020-He has continued to help out when asked and be polite.  I do think he questions his choices at times.  I do not believe he has OW.
Oct 30 2020-He wants to get back together.  I am unsure.
August 2021-He has shown very gradual progress over the last 1 1/2 years.  I did allow him home on a trial bases and in another room.  We go to counseling, I do not currently allow touch.  So far so good.

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Growing #10
#53: November 24, 2020, 08:21:17 AM
FJ, Curiosity and Gracie -
Thank you for your responses.
Any others would be appreciated.

Our divorce only stipulated that H help pay for high school education.
No child support at all, ever.

So, it seems, then, that I don't owe him any updates.
BUT - I DO want to coparent in a civil and friendly way.
It just sounds, to me, like he's being aggressive, controlling and overbearing.
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Growing #10
#54: November 24, 2020, 08:33:25 AM
Quote
I got more texting about my responsibility and how I don't understand anything, and how come I have to make coparenting difficult and won't cooperate... 

That is gaslighting at its most basic level.  Do not go near it (i.e. Don’t try to see a grain of truth in it as there is none) or you will get burned.  I do not see any reason to respond to that sort of bullying. 
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Re: Growing #10
#55: November 24, 2020, 08:58:15 AM
You're right Sea, it just sounds like he's being aggressive, controlling and overbearing.  He can't stand that he can no longer control you.

I'd ignore him.  He has no right expecting any updates on an adult son who he has contact with.   That's crazy and has nothing to do with co-parenting.

 ::) ::)
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Growing #10
#56: November 24, 2020, 12:04:30 PM
Quote
From then until today, I have gotten texts about coparenting and my role in keeping him informed, and eventhough S19s an adult he is still  a dependent and I need to let H know when he moves from state to state, etc.
Oh brother,,, what a nut.  If you reply at all, I would keep it very short.  “I disagree”.  But I like the not responding suggestion more.
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#57: November 24, 2020, 12:38:01 PM
OMG--I might even just send a "k" in response...if anything.   He is gaslighting, plain and simple.  He doesn't deserve your time or energy rt now. Wonder why he is so agitated....trouble in paradise maybe? ;)
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Growing #10
#58: November 24, 2020, 12:39:17 PM
Seems like gaslighting nonsense to me too and I'd ignore it too.  :)
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Growing #10
#59: November 24, 2020, 12:44:09 PM
It's gotten worse over the last hour.

S22 told me that he was having drinks and appetizers at H's house before dinner here.
I reached out and asked H if he or anyone in the house have been exposed - they had an outbreak where H and ow work.  He belittled me and said "don't be ridiculous" and went on to say that I was higher risk because I traveled and if I'm worried S22 can have dinner there too and forgo coming to my house.

I tried to explain that I was only concerned for everyone's safety...

I think I am going to delete all the messages, then hope no more contact for awhile - maybe he's gotten it out of his system...
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Re: Growing #10
#60: November 24, 2020, 12:52:04 PM
Why even bother, Sea?

All he will do is give you a nasty reply.
I would just leave him alone!
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Growing #10
#61: November 24, 2020, 01:02:41 PM
Thunder - True...

I deleted the text chain - out of sight, out of mind...

I just wish that he understood how much I loved him.
Maybe one day (maybe not)...
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Re: Growing #10
#62: November 24, 2020, 01:40:39 PM
Sweetie you are just not going to get that through to him.  We all wanted to do that, but until they make it thru this crisis, if they do, they will not care and it feels like pressure to them.

I'm sorry Sea I know how much you care about him.
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Re: Growing #10
#63: November 24, 2020, 03:31:35 PM
Sea, I agree with those who say do not respond. In the first message about coperanting he was a bully, and possibly using words that were put in his ear. I find that when my H has OW looking over his shoulder is when he says the meanest stuff to me, as if he has to prove to her how much he hates me.

The second message is possibly more of the same, a show for someone. Zipnore (zip your lips and ignore) or you will be sucked into a trap that will work against you. He's fishing for trouble with you for whatever is going on with him. Stay far away from that trap.

Now for the positives, your S is home with you. You and he have a shoulder to lean on, someone to bounce ideas off, company. I really hope your S can now have peace to handle his studies while getting some loving attention from his mum. I see this as a win win. Who needs those MLCers when they are all drama whilst where we are it's all peace and a desire to love.
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Re: Growing #10
#64: November 24, 2020, 08:13:15 PM
Hello Sea and (((HUGS))),

I am agreeing with Milly; I’m getting a lot of short-leash spite from h since his recent stationing with ow. With quarantines, election, work from home (if your h does that), and — if you’re any of you in the USA — the upcoming holidays, this is the week for it. Christmas week will probably be a little intense too. If S isn’t scheduled or chooses not to be with his dad, dad is likely to take it personally and take it :( out on you. Possibly also :( on S, although I’ve seen usually the griping parent tries to put on a good show or ? brave face to the child(ren) whose time it wants.

It’s kind of difficult to have much sympathy about, you know? Like, “well that’s the bed you made”.

As for coparenting and any responsibility to notify the other parent about anything: if S is of a particular age, many discussions can be had between parent and teen, not parent and co-parent. It’s nice if you’re willing to do it, but if it’s not laid out in court orders, you don’t have to. Still do what’s best for the child, and still do what’s best for You.

When the child’s dad is mouthing off and trying to boss everything in text or email, my default anymore is often just “Thanks for letting me know.” Then don’t engage further. You’ve got other better things to do with your time and energy, even if sometimes the only thing on the agenda is to have peace in your heart and hours. (((HUGS)))
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Growing #10
#65: November 25, 2020, 09:00:19 AM
Sea,

Oh Sea, you are having a full month of "his" crisis.  I remember it well.  I am a bit farther along and have very little contact, if any.  He remains with OW and I hope they are miserable!!!  Just sayin....

I was too trusting also.  But honestly it never occurred to me that he could do what he did.  I lived in a fantasy that the man I married would love me forever and protect me, as he always promised, but also because that is what I planned to do for him.  What a jolt to understand (and accept) that he is the one that lit the forest fire.....

I agree that your H is using the financial matter as a way to keep ties.

I am sorry that your son isn't feeling well.  I think that it is very common right now.  Add on to - Covid, the election, the holidays - the stress that his father just got married, he is worried about his mom, his family unit is no longer his safe place, and the pressures of school and life, it is not a surprise he is struggling.  I am glad he is home with you.  As for your H, what a boob - no offense.  He seems angry (for whatever reasons) and takes it out on you with his words.  Your son is an adult and your H can call him if he has questions about his life.  H is monstering and you don't need to listen any longer.  Not your circus, not your problem.  To become COMPLETELY detached is a long painful process and it sounds as if you are well on your way.  Congratulations on how far you have come and how much good YOU created out of the ashes.  Take a moment and be proud of all that has been accomplished.  If he is angry, it is at himself - not you, so in one ear and out the other.  Don't get held up on his words or his tone.

You are not alone.  My 2 girls are going to be with the OW on T day for the first time.  They are adults and I know in my heart they would want to be here, but it still hurts and due to COVID I will be home alone for the holiday weekend.  Not going to worry about calories, going to drink some good wine and find some good movies and books.  I will figure out the continuation of my journey on Monday.  For the next couple of days, I need a break!!

You got this... keep your head up and keep going - even small steps count.
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Growing #10
#66: November 25, 2020, 10:07:44 AM
I think your mlcer felt like he had no control over the situation and was trying to exert control. It's not your concern, as you know. It's between s19 and him. You aren't co parenting any longer. You are both helping your adult son navigate the ins and outs of college.

If you dont mind always having to deal with him, say ok. Or if you want son to deal with it, say "I will talk with S about keeping you up to date". Or if there was no question in the last text, you can not respond.

Who do you think should be responsible for the communication about college and S's location? What makes sense to you?

Hugs. It's so not fair to even have to deal with this at all.

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Re: Growing #10
#67: November 25, 2020, 10:47:31 AM
Agree, agree, agreeing with everyone here. And it’s weird, isn’t it — you’d think the monstering or controlling stuff would be done with, all things considered. Sea, just remember, you don’t have to be part of that pony show anymore and your own time, grace, peace, and enjoyments all are most important now. Do for you and S, and not for that other guy.

Shining, it occurs to me I will *also* be alone over the holiday weekend. I plan a glass of wine also, but X( I hadn’t planned ahead so if the grocery parking lots look crazy today, I might forego it. Just remember there are maaaany people alone this weekend, so we’re really not alone. It’s good time to spend knowing You, and figuring out or doing the things You like and that bring you joy, delight, calm, a sense of accomplishment. Self value and self care. (((HUGS)))
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Growing #10
#68: November 27, 2020, 10:32:30 AM
Thank you for your thoughts - Thunder, Shining, Off Road, Terra and Milly.

I was able to delete the text chain and no further texts from xH.
I agree that it was probably a control thing, and he didn't like the fact that he was "out-of-the loop".  Things happened so fast that I couldn't have let him know even if it had been on my radar... 
That being said, I really have taken myself out of the middle and no longer feel that it's my responsibility to tell him anything that's going on between the kids and/or myself.

I had a great Thanksgiving with S22 and GF, S19 yesterday.
Big dinner, yummy apple pie (my xH said he married me for my apple pie!).
Nice family time evenjhough S25 and GF couldn't be here because covid.
S22 and GF went to xH for appetizers and drinks before coming here.
Nothing mentioned except their new dog bit S22 for no reason.
I wanted to hear something like xH and owwife were fighting the whole time, or their house is a mess, or dad looks tired, or something to make me feel better - like he's not happy, but nothing.
I suppose the dog was a wedding gift from one to the other; since a kid wouldn't be an option.  That also made me sad (the dog, not the kid).  I wonder who's idea it was... But then again, I know I shouldn't care... It's irrelevant...
Exhausted, then to bed.  Still have dishes to finish today!

Now, for today...
Most of the time, I feel so detached and healthy.
And then there's today...
I feel sad and undetached.  I feel like I was having expectations that my xH would wish me a Happy Thanksgiving (he wished me a happy Birthday 2 months ago).
But I' contradicting myself in that a few posts ago, I said that I was hoping not to hear from him through the holidays.
And yet at the same time, I realize that my xH is not someone who I respect or would want to share my time with, so why do I have these disparate thoughts?  Is it just part of cycling?

And although part of me wants my xH back (version 2.0), part of me wants to start a new relationship.
But the dating thing didn't work - on 3 dating sites over 6 months - one single date.  UGH.
IDK what it is that makes me so unattractive; yet plenty of cat fishers were interested!   ;D
S25 and GF looked at profile; said it was fine - yet nobody interested.
Maybe I'm too old, IDK...
Maybe it's God protecting me - but it's kind of a blow to my ego.

UGH - And this is the first Fall in my house.  I wanted unbuildable land in the back so I could have nature, birds, deer, etc  BUT - I did not expect the continual gunfire that I am experiencing due to deer season.  Right in my back yard, repetitive firing.  It's pretty traumatic and I understand the necessity of controlling the deer population, but I've only seen one deer since I've moved in last July.  IDK why this bothers me so...  Not very peaceful.

Anyway, just a little down today.
Love my house, love my boys, love my cats...
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Growing #10
#69: November 27, 2020, 06:24:46 PM
I'm glad you were able to have some time with some of your kids Sea.  I understand your feelings today, and have had similar after a Holiday event.  It's hard not to monkey brain about what is happening or not happening in xH's  household.  The dog sounds like a bit of a menace, tbh.

I'm sorry that the nature area behind your house is not very peaceful right now.  That would be hard, especially if you weren't expecting that.

I doubt that you are unattractive Sea.  From what I've heard, dating sites can be really weird.  If meeting someone is what you would like, I hope that some opportunities open up.  It's got to be much harder now in the days of Covid as well.  You are braver than I am.  I have yet to make myself a profile or anything.  I don't want to deal with the catfishes and the like!   :P

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Growing #10
#70: November 27, 2020, 07:21:38 PM
Thanks FW -
The shooting stopped soon after I posted.  I believe it was one or two guys for quite awhile, then nothing.  I guess I have to get used to it.  There are 5 of us that own the 25 acres behind us, so I am going to see if we can put no trespassing signs up if everyone is in agreement.  I know the one guy that hunted just moved, so that could be an option.  I believe that the hunters are on our property disrespecting the property bounds as they were not posted in the past.  We only acquired the acreage this year.

Keeping busy so not monkey-braining this evening.  Getting Christmas cards ready etc.  We are celebrating on 12/20 as S25 from out-of-state will be here until 12/21 only.

IDK about dating.  I'm not sure what I want to do.  I wish I had a crystal ball...   ::)

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Re: Growing #10
#71: November 29, 2020, 08:07:49 AM
Sea, (((HUGS))), I wish for that crystal ball, too.

On hunting, and hunters, and deer: I live near a gun club up in the hills and yet in a residential area, and yet we don’t hear gunfire much. I was anti-hunting for the longest and very anti-gun, and then a few years ago — the summer before moveaway BD, actually, I took a hunting course. And being up there at the gun club, training with the sounds of gunshot over and over again, somehow it shifted my perceptions so that it is just almost a natural thing.

I do understand that it’s a common family tradition for (usually) menfolk to hunt on or around Thanksgiving. That’s a different day or time/season for hunting, so maybe it will not encroach on your peace the rest of the year, just at Thanksgiving family time. I think if we don’t grow up with that family tradition it can be really unsettling and upsetting. Since the moveaway year, though, I have learned to view it as a positive and undeniably rewarding bonding exercise between traditional American masculine and its kin, or between just itself and nature.

The other part of it is that we do need the hunt, and hunters, to help keep habitats and species populations in balance, and that on the deer level, the kill that seems like a shame is also typically a good food source. This year — I don’t know how many of us are reading this angle, maybe it is just me — there has been a lot of focus on food sovereignty. I think our state even passed law that it is ok to collect roadkill for food (yuck). So one way to make peace with those sounds in your vicinity is to make friends or connections with the local hunting community. There could be good venison in your future, you know?

This year has just been so weird. But if you can make even good new acquaintances from these circumstances, it’s a win.

Really there should be signage posted and any hunters ought to approach you directly for your signature approval before going about on your acreage. I hope you can find a local gun club that might help you connect with the hunters there. I found that the ones in my area are typically older, gruff, stiff but respectful, and very firmly ethical. When I took the course it made me wonder at the difference between them and my h. It also felt more secure, weirdly — they seemed inscrutable and almost unapproachable, and yet it was clear they had a better sense of morality and safety somehow, than the American masculine I had been married to.

On the remarriage and dog “children” — h has told me on several occasions that the new dog bites ow hard enough to draw blood, and often enough to be a problem. I think he says that to make me feel better and I think it’s a lie. I can’t imagine having a dog that problematic and not correcting the behavior. At the same time, now a year or more into that part of their story, I figure it is their problem and I finally don’t think of it much anymore.

Just saying: new dog ownership is not cut and dry, and many parts of it aren’t all that fun. Last night while talking with my brother, whose big dog is finally edging out of big puppyhood, I realized that in h’s case and maybe some you may have observed, sometimes a couple will get a dog (or cat, or whatever) together and the pet is not a child or shared love so much as it is maybe an object through which the couple triangulates.

Sometimes it is distinctly a way to avoid 100% intimacy with the other human adult in the house.

It isn’t always, but sometimes that is very much what it is. If that helps you, any.

I’m so glad you had the kids, at least a few of them, with you for Thanksgiving. And I think it’s very natural to feel the blues just afterward. We are always recalibrating our experience around the holidays, LBS or not. It’s just the time of year for those deeper reflections, and it’s ok. (((HUGS)))

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Growing #10
#72: December 05, 2020, 09:58:04 AM
Terra -
Thanks for your thoughts.
Interestingly, I haven't heard any more gunshots since Thanksgiving day, yet had heard quite a few up to that point.
Perhaps they are done for the season!?!

IDK about the new puppy and love triangulation.
I don't think I can be that naive to believe it since they just got married and seem to be even more in love than ever (although that's heresay, from assumptions only). 

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Growing #10
#73: December 05, 2020, 10:08:50 AM
So, woke up this morning at almost 11:00! 
Must have desperately needed the sleep.

It's finally snowing here, and I'm oh so happy - and it's a wet, sticky snow with flakes the size of golf balls!
Great day to be inside, cleaning and decorating.

Scrolling through my emails, I see an email that says "Sorry you're having difficult logging into your IG account" and offers a reset.  IDK why I would have gotten that as I was on it yesterday without a problem AT ALL.  So, that was weird.  I went on IG and changed my password to something obscure.  Of course, got a friend suggestion of my xMIL, and scrolled through who was following her, and of course both xH and AP are, and both of their profile pics are their wedding picture.  His is public with only 3 posts, and hers is private.  (BTW - I didn't look at profiles, but that information shows up under xMILs followers).  So, more monkey braining today about why that happened.

Also, fiasco with FedEx where they didn't have my complete address on packages being sent to my sons (Married surname) from my sister.  They called me, and I called back (local office) and left message on vm with correct information, tracking numbers and my phone number for questions.  I also emailed with same information.  2 days later, packages still reporting problems.  So I called 1-800 number and supposedly got it fixed to my correct address.  Only to get a text from xH yesterday that 2 packages were delivered to his house and I needed to arrange FedEx to bring them to mine.  I don't understand how they even got his name or address; I know my sister didn't give it to them - she doesn't even know it.  And why would they have randomly picked my xH's address out of all the people in the state with the same last name?  It's not the same city either.  It's just so weird.  They said someone gave them that address, but couldn't tell me who.  UGH.

So, frustrated because all I want is to not have any contact with this man who ruined my family and marriage.  I love him, and want to be a "lighthouse" and all that other stuff we've learned, but any contact that I have with him doesn't seem to allow that to happen.  He's just still in replay and limerence; which I get...
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Re: Growing #10
#74: December 05, 2020, 11:04:18 AM
Oh geez Sea, the hits just keep coming, don't they?

Weird about the account and the packages.  Did they have your name on them but his address???  Who would do that??

Well just try to busy yourself decorating and watching the beautiful snow fall.
It always looks so peaceful this time of year.

We haven't had any snow at all, except once on October, and for MN this is rare plus temps close to 40 degrees.  But I'll take it for now. ;D

Hope you have a peaceful rest of your day.

Hugs
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Growing #10
#75: December 05, 2020, 01:06:32 PM
Thanks for replying Thunder -
I sometimes feel like not a lot of people want to post on someone's thread who's divorced and xH remarried.  Maybe awkward, IDK?

Regarding the packages:  They only had my Sons last name and my address.
My address was missing a word (like missing "foam" out of Sea Foam Drive), and I corrected it with UPS, both locally and corporate.
So, IDK how my H's address, which is in a totally different city, got involved at all.
So weird.  So, now I'm dealing with him trying to get my S23 to pick it up, or FedEx to pick up and resend.
I DON"T WANT TO BE IN THE MIDDLE OF THIS AT ALL...
My sister knows it but can't get it done herself.

I'll delete the text chain and start over again - trying not to have contact with him.
It's just too painful...

Watching the snow before it gets too dark so early.
At least it's supposed to be snow-covered int he morning when we awaken...
I'll use my snowblower for the first time! :)

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Re: Growing #10
#76: December 05, 2020, 02:23:21 PM
Sea I don't know if I believe that is really true.

Yes maybe newbies look for more hope by reading threads were there are reconciliations that give them hope, but the longer they are here, and read others stories, and meet other members, they start to realize reconciliation is not that common.

There is one thing to keep in mind, I do believe a whole lot of of people who reconcile leave HS.  We were like maybe a nice stop for these people when they needed support, but now they need to live their life and try to put all this crazy MLC behind them.

I do however love when these happy, reconciled people come back and update us.
There is hope in that too.  I wish more would do that.

Even if they did not reconcile with their spouse, if they ended up living a good life and their happy, that gives hope also.

Hugs
 
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#77: December 05, 2020, 02:37:50 PM
Good point, Thunder... we do tend to seek out the stories of reconciliation... or at least reconnection... at first, at least, and then also during the touch and go portion of the journey that we get with clingers. But I am learning to read more broadly; to look for stories of healing in whatever form that takes. And more recently, I am learning the importance of reading about people’s experiences with MLCers who remain in the fog. I am still new to this by pretty much any definition... not quite 9 months since BD1 and less than 18 months since her EA started. So when I get frustrated and think my W is “stuck,” it is helpful to be reminded that this timeline is as normal as anything in MLC is.

And Seahorse... I do find your thread to be inspiring because you are navigating this process in a way that I think would resemble what I would hope to do if my W moved ahead with another relationship rather than at least trying to reconnect - whether she did so while still in crisis, or on the other side of crisis if she gets through it. I can’t predict the future, I know, but what you have to say about any situations that bring him back into your life really resonate with me. I wish you continued healing.
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Growing #10
#78: December 05, 2020, 03:37:31 PM
Seahorse,
 
I really enjoy reading your posts. I don’t often post. I think perhaps because I’ve been at this so long ‘since 2009, I often don’t feel there isn’t anything different I can bring.
I too have an H who has remarried. I stepped back with contact greatly once that happened because honestly he’s a “ married man” and I don’t wish to be interfere in any marriage.
However, it doesn’t mean I’ve given up on us. I figure he’s taken yet again another detour 🙄.
He and his wife still don’t live together 1.5 yrs later - they live 2.5 hrs apart. I find that very odd and just consider it to be a reflection of the absurdity of MLC.
As to what to comment on. I agree in some context that others may not be sure what to say. However,  as I type this I think it maybe can inspire us to share how we keep rebuilding our lives in light of this “added hurdle” in the journey.  Hmm, with that in mind, I will pop over to my thread and work on that in the next day.
Btw I delete the messages too - I use to hang on to them until I learned it wasn’t helping me .

Hugs, Believer
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Growing #10
#79: December 05, 2020, 07:52:54 PM
Definitely sounds like someone was trying to get access to your IG account.  I'm glad you changed your password.

That is so weird about the Fed Ex packages.  I don't even understand how that could happen.  Hopefully FedEx can clear up why that happened.

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Growing #10
#80: December 08, 2020, 10:53:12 AM
Catching up, Seahorse. Weird about the packages. That had to be so annoying as you're trying to get xH's mess out of your life and your head.

Glad you had some snow. Nothing but an ice storm here in Okieland so far this winter. Sometimes a nice snowfall feels like a new beginning. Or a reminder that every day is a new beginning. Like a white page of paper or a blank slate. Anxious to see what new stories you write!
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Together 28 years, married 27. Two adult kids, ours

BD #1: 2016 - EA  |  BD #2: 2018 - FA

W moved out - June 2019 | OM#3 - July 2019
W asks for divorce - August 2019 | Divorce final - September 2019 | Moving on

My thread: https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11537.new#new

New Here? Read this! http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1149.0

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Growing #10
#81: December 09, 2020, 05:07:12 PM
Thunder, Curiosity, PJ, FW and Believer -
Thank you for your comments and thoughts.
FedEx package debacle figured out - for some reason, they called my son in VA to get address (?) and he said they could contact his dad to get the address for the Mr. Seahorse family (since it was under my son's last name, which is the same).  So it was actually my xH who had them rerouted to HIS house (by mistake, evidently), but he didn't own up to it, or offer to bring them over of correct the problem.  Anyway, S22 picked them up at his house and all is good.

To make situations worse, the box of gifts we had sent my sister was directly taken off of her front porch under camera surveillance -- Stolen - just like that!  Now my poor sister has no Christmas gifts because we are her only family...  :(  The world is full of horrible people.  Police report filed, insurance in process of being filed.  More time spent on things I really don't want to do...

But the real reason I'm posting is because I get daily emails from Divorce Care.  Today was day 312 for me - almost a year into it.  The message was interesting because it talks about RECONNECTION versus RECONCILIATION.  I'm posting it below because I always thought that reconciliation was the restoration of a marriage, but the email looks at it differently.  Any thoughts appreciated because I am pretty sure that on HS we talk about it in the opposite order - reconnect then reconcile the marriage...

Why Should You Consider Reconciliation?
Day 312

When you hear the word reconciliation, your initial response might be, “No way!” Even if you feel that way, you should at least consider the concept of reconciliation.

Reconciliation is when a relationship is restored to good terms after having come apart. This does not necessarily mean a restoration of marriage; it can mean a cordial friendship where both individuals show respect and kindness to the other.

“Listen to what we have to say and listen to what God has to say before you emotionally react to the thought of reconciliation,” recommends Dr. Jim A. Talley. “There may be some things here that will be of benefit to you long-term in your emotional and spiritual stabilization.

"You have to ask yourself, in five years from now when you look back on what you’ve done, can you really stand there with three things: a pure heart, a clear conscience, and clean hands before God? You cannot do that without dealing in the realm of reconciliation.”

Most of the “right” things to do in the divorce recovery process have to do with making good choices and not giving in to fickle emotions. This is your life, and you have a definite say in how well you adjust, stabilize, and recover. Seeking reconciliation will benefit you both emotionally and spiritually and will enable you to stand before God knowing that you chose His way.

“Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me” (Psalm 51:10 NASB).

Without You, Jesus, it is impossible for me to have a pure heart and a clean conscience. Forgive me for my sins, and grant me wisdom as I consider the possibility of reconciliation. Amen.

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#82: December 10, 2020, 02:38:37 AM
I think the key thing there is

where both individuals show respect and kindness to the other.

Both being the operative word, IMO.  And that, for me, would mean the MLCer understanding what the LBS feels, showing empathy, all those things.  I don't necessarily mean a down-on-the-knees grovelling apology, I hope I'm getting my meaning across.

I think in so many cases that we see here there isn't the "both".  I think that what they describe can work if "both" agree that the marriage should end, if "both" want to have that kind of friendship, but in so many cases here it's not that way at all.

Acceptance of reality is one thing, always being polite, gracious, etc., as well, but that doesn't mean it's all OK; it doesn't mean we need to put ourselves through things that aren't healthy for us. 

Also, we can be kind and respectful without being "reconciled"; for so many of us it just means accepting the reality and not doing anything to hurt ourselves. 

I'm sure someone like Treasur will be able to word this so much better!
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Growing #10
#83: December 10, 2020, 09:02:10 AM
Ha ha, nope, I think you said it perfectly Trust  :)
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Growing #10
#84: December 10, 2020, 01:44:03 PM
Agreed. I think most are open to this idea, but the difficulty lies in that "both parties" show respect and kindness to the other. Unfortunately most MLCers are incapable of both while in the throws of replay. And sometimes never grow out of it. But if it is possible, then it would be a good thing b/c I don't think many of us here on HS want conflict.  Most just want to be seen and heard.  Guess that goes back to respect. 

And I think it is especially important to have some kind of relationship when there are children involved. But again, not always possible.  I find that most LBS here on HS are more than kind and respectful to their MLCers. Most want to grow, learn and mostly heal. MLCers are really nowhere near that point.  Maybe I am just jaded.

I like what Trust said about accepting the reality. B/c that is what I have been trying to do for a while and it is very hard for me.

Sorry about your sister's gifts--that is terrible. That happened to me before. I actually watched it happen. Broad daylight.  Hoping insurance will resolve it soon.

Hugs friend. I find the holidays to be such a bitter sweet time.
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Growing #10
#85: December 11, 2020, 12:21:11 AM
I think about this a lot, actually -- I think it's important not to blame ourselves if there isn't that "friendship" with our MLCers; I think they will often try to make out that it is us who aren't allowing that, when in fact it is the MLCer trying to deny the fact that they did anything wrong, and that it is all the LBS being obstructive. 

Now of course I'm allowing my own experience to colour what I've written, but it's something I see time and time again on this forum.

My MLCer once screamed at me "Why can't you just give me what I want?" -- I think some do that for a long time, including long after BD and/or divorce/remarriage/whatever -- why can't we behave the way they say we "should", i.e. condone their behaviour, go along with everything, etc.   That is where I see the sticking point in being able to have a "friendship". 

In my case my MLCer now ignores me completely, has pretty much erased me, but now does this to our children -- "why can't they just go along with what he wants" kind of thing.  And my daughter has started to doubt herself and feel bad, when it is he who has been nasty to her (no details here, but he really has).  Serious gaslighting continuing. 

That is where I think it is absolutely OK for us to calmly acknowledge that no, we aren't nuts, aren't going crazy, and we don't need to participate.  I remember a line about forgiveness which was "forgiveness doesn't necessarily mean reconciliation", which I take to mean that we can let them go, let God, however we think about it, and that we don't need to participate in their version of life if it hurts us or our children. 
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Growing #10
#86: December 11, 2020, 01:08:36 AM
Quote
we don't need to participate in their version of life if it hurts us or our children.

This ^^^^^
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Growing #10
#87: December 11, 2020, 06:25:24 AM
I think about this a lot, actually -- I think it's important not to blame ourselves if there isn't that "friendship" with our MLCers; I think they will often try to make out that it is us who aren't allowing that, when in fact it is the MLCer trying to deny the fact that they did anything wrong, and that it is all the LBS being obstructive. 
>snip<
That is where I think it is absolutely OK for us to calmly acknowledge that no, we aren't nuts, aren't going crazy, and we don't need to participate.  I remember a line about forgiveness which was "forgiveness doesn't necessarily mean reconciliation", which I take to mean that we can let them go, let God, however we think about it, and that we don't need to participate in their version of life if it hurts us or our children.

Trustandlove,

I could have written the above...

I sometimes wonder if this is reconciliation in a sense - in which we are reconciled to the way things are with healthy boundaries.

As a stander, I am committed to praying for my h. daily, I also pray for the ow as I am taught. I know she is not my enemy, she is the woman with whom my h. shares his life at the moment.

I would love to see our marriage restored, however, this is not something I can decide will happen and it just happens ("name it and claim it", kind of thing). It is my heart's desire. The Lord knows that well. It is surrendered to Him.

In the meanwhile, I do my best to lead a life that honors God in first place. I speak to my h. when the opportunity arises and I share with him my conquests and small victories. We have a peaceful relationship, linked together by our children and our shared families. He doesn't really correspond much - I don't know too much about his life, he is a good compartamentalizer and always was.

I suppose it is a kind of reconciliation, not that I can say that there is a friendship, just respect and kindness between us - I am sure he wishes I would "accept" ow in his life and that we could all get together on occasion. I just can't bring myself to do that. I have told him that I can't deal with it emotionally, I don't think he understands but at least, he seems to respect it.

My kids certainly benefit from the peaceful relationship and they both know I continue to love their father, they just can't really understand it either  ???. That's ok, as others have said, my feelings are my own and I am free to have them ;D

It just may be that life is going to carry on like this, right?
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Growing #10
#88: December 14, 2020, 05:11:25 AM
Thank you all for your responses.
I have been ruminating on them for the last few days.
I was going to respond to each, but then got this in my email today (same Divorce Care daily email - Day 317)
Talking about restoration -- restoration of friendship with spouse but not marriage, specifically when the spouse remarries.
It stated that if your spouse remarries that you should NOT attempt to reconcile your marriage (consistent with my question why Joe Beam says that)...
Scriptural support - (kind of)

“If a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent about her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, and if after she leaves his house she becomes the wife of another man … then her first husband, who divorced her, is not allowed to marry her again” (Deuteronomy 24:1-2, 4).

So, I guess I'm asking for thoughts about this since it's not quite our situation (if you didn't file).  In the scripture the man divorces the wife because of indecency, the wife remarries, the man is not allowed to marry her again.
Does this even reflect our situation since (paraphrasing):  The LBS divorces the MLCer, the MLCer remarries and the LBSer is not allowed to remarry them? - Is this only the case if the LBS is the one that files for divorce?

A friend on the site mentioned to another person that I was struggling.
Perhaps I am struggling.
Perhaps not so much because I want my H back (although I do), but because I want to do the right thing....
I want to understand what happened...

Should I invite H and ow over for cocktails one night?  IDK...
In some respects it would be nice to have a good relationship and not "lose my older son to H" for a day this week since he'll only be visiting for 5 days - I lose him 20% of the time he's here for the day he spends with his father.  If we could all celebrate together, perhaps we would all benefit.

Now, I'm not sure that I could do that (I think I can), but just throwing that possibility out there.
I know, in my heart, the best thing that I can do is pray about it -- I'm just not sure that I want to hear the answers, whatever they may be.

Sea
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« Last Edit: December 14, 2020, 05:13:10 AM by Seahorse »

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Re: Growing #10
#89: December 14, 2020, 06:06:25 AM
Sea, (((HUGS))). Just on the face of it, I don’t think women commonly had the right to divorce, in Biblical times. Maybe by New Testament, but not before that. Even then, divorce because of a wife’s adultery was one thing; it wasn’t for when a guy just didn’t like whatever about his wife anymore.

I’m no scholar but my read on the Biblical text there is that (basically) if a man MISTREATS HIS WIFE by divorcing her, especially for a stupid reason — and you have to remember how damaging and devastating it would be for a woman to be “charged off” this way in Biblical times — if another man then takes up that cast-off woman as his own wife,

Then no. Under no circumstances is that hopefully safely remarried woman ever to remarry the first husband, whose actions toward her had been so transgressive, rejecting, and potentially life-ending.

Because that first husband’s decision to divorce her for *any reason other than her own adultery* — which you, Sea, did not commit — was objectionable, heartless, and un-Christian.

In that case, the first husband doesn’t get to try to reconcile after his cast-off wife has been the wife taken by a second husband.

I don’t know for sure but I’m *pretty* sure technically in Biblical times (both Testaments) women and/or wives were viewed mostly as property. So there’s the edict about not coveting a neighbor’s wife, and notice nothing about coveting a neighbor’s husband? And also maybe something about pearls before swine. If a man cast away the treasure of you, and another man picked up that treasure and called it his own wife for all to see, the first man doesn’t get to change his mind now that he sees someone else values you.

It is not the hecking same as when a spouse ditches you to run off with a new bauble and marry it, when you are still there now just alone and still shining as the treasure you still are.

I think it’s important when we look at Scripture and contemporary interpretations (especially from groups that profit on some level from our need of care) to always keep in mind that these old books were written long ago in very different culture and social/gender dynamics. I don’t want to say women were chattel, then, but it wasn’t like it is today. Women have different rights now.

Again I’m no scholar. Just, be careful to keep your lens clear when reading how the Bible is written. Times were different; women had much fewer options for anything and not nearly the autonomy, authority, opportunity, or even respect from society or husbands. In that sense, the Bible with all of its edicts and prescriptions and prohibitions is really a wonderful Book — in that it asks/commands that women (children, men, God, everyone) be treated well.

Simplistically, a different angle is that the Scripture quoted seems to say that if your husband didn’t like you enough to stay married to you, you get to remarry hopefully a new man who will like you just fine and be a good Christian husband to you, and your disgraceful xh doesn’t get a second chance.

If your xh divorces you in favor of his own adultery, that’s not what’s described in the quoted text. The quoted text is specifically about what a man gets to do about his first wife, when he has cast her off for no very good reason and she has afterward become a different man’s wife. In the context of Biblical culture, that second husband has really rescued her. Also, she is now his property. So the man who divorced her doesn’t get to take her back. If you think of it, that would be even more reducing to the woman, and can you imagine, in Biblical times, what the first man might do to the woman if she returned to him after being married to someone else?

Back then, purity was a huge deal. Would a Biblical husband or xh really give a woman a good fair safe life if he knew — if everyone in their community knew — that she had lain with another man?

I don’t think it’s helpful for contemporary interpretations to blur the gender prescriptions or assume that “if a man” means “if a spouse”. The rules and roles of gender and authority were waaaay different then. As a writer, I have to say, I think if there’s any question, go back to the original Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic, and notice the precision of the original language. Then keep it framed at first in the original context and cultures, which are so not the ones we live in today.

God has you safely in His arms, and He has a plan for you. That’s all I really know for sure: that He cares for us. (((HUGS)))



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« Last Edit: December 14, 2020, 06:12:15 AM by terra »

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Growing #10
#90: December 14, 2020, 06:17:14 AM
What has God told you to do? That is how I decided to remain faithful to my husband. The bottom line, although there are other reasons, ...but in all these years in prayer and deep within, I am following what God wants me to do. I don't understand why, I don't know God's plans or how my standing affects other things....but I know this is the only road for me to take.

My faith has taught me that the New Testament and Jesus's coming changed some of the rules and laws of the old testament. So if I want to look to scripture to tell me what to do I refer to Matthew 19...but I will honestly say that it is something more internal for me:

Matthew 19:
3 Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?”

4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’[a] 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

7 “Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?”

8 Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”


Quote
Should I invite H and ow over for cocktails one night?  IDK...

I could not. Perhaps I am not healed enough. Fortunately whoever she is has been kept hidden away from me.

I see him sometimes...it's on his terms, I would not call it a friendship. It is superficial and I don't know him or even like him, the person he is now. We have spent time together with our daughter...like you Sea, I don't get to see her often and I don't want her to go off to his place and spend time there.....he left her too.....when she is here, I want to be with her the whole time..she's is all I have...that's how I feel right now..so lonely it's causing me to be weighed down with grief....even though I am fortunate and blessed compared to so many....I am not coping well due to the restrictions of COVID.

I would be his friend if he wanted to be, but he shows no sign of that...indeed, I am beginning to see a pattern that he will spend a few dinners with me and then he will remove himself from any contact with me....for several weeks/months..it has been his pattern and it is cruel...although I don't think he has any idea of how it affects me...and I allow it.

I pray and always the same answer...."Love one another as I have loved you"
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Re: Growing #10
#91: December 14, 2020, 06:39:57 AM
I love what xyzcf has said here and am chiming in again because I just read a bit on Biblical grounds for divorce and saw this:

Matthew 5:31-32
“It was also said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.’ But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of sexual immorality, makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

BUMMER.

That’s ESV. I’m a KJV literalist, so,

“31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:

32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.”

If a man casts away his non-adulterous wife, he’s caused her to commit adultery. I don’t know how that is? But it’s the part about her potential second husband being adulterer just by marrying her, that blows my mind.  :(

Whatever the case, I really do think the edict against discarded wife is about IF THE DISCARDED WIFE remarries. And namely that — in Biblical times — once a man has cast off his wife, it’s not his option to reclaim her if subsequently she has become another man’s wife. Because 2000+ years ago, and that part of the world, if purity was a big deal and women were property and without rights, such a first husband could probably brutalize her and get away with it.

(The part about him causing her to commit adultery, and any subsequent husband also committing adultery just by taking her as wife, I’ll have to think on some more, gosh.)

Whatever any of it means, Sea, I know God has you safely. (((HUGS)))
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Growing #10
#92: December 14, 2020, 10:42:04 AM
Hello,

I want to first respond to your question about depression and MLC. Here is my response,

While,  we identify depression as a separate stage, depression permeates the entire process. In replay, the MLCer fights the symptoms of the depression by seeking new things, new lifestyle, affairs, and addictive substances to take the edge off the numbness and emptiness of their own lives. They project and blame the LBSer for these feelings and by running away, they don't face the inner core of the depression. However, it is there and it does not go away.

When the MLCer begins to face the consequences of his or her actions, to final feel the depression, this is stage four, Depression. The parties no longer work, the bills are now all unpaid, and the alienator is no longer their soul mate. This begins overt depression and the time to recollect and rebuild.

Now, I want to be clear, MLC is not a linear progression. They may enter stages at different times, and go back to stages. A person entering depression may fight it off and go back into replay. That is the reason why stage watching or trying to use time as a means to measure the progress of a MLCer is futile and not recommended. Remember, MLC is a process, not a procedure.

In short and simple terms, if you have a MLCer- you are dealing with depression.

Quote
A friend on the site mentioned to another person that I was struggling.

Communication is hard and even harder because words carry different meanings and what is interpreted can change the entire aspect of the conversation. To struggle with a thought or idea, means to contemplate deeply.

MLC is complex and complicated because it deals with relationships, trust, respect, and commitment. It involves both rational and legal issues as well as emotions and emotional well-being. In that regard, we all struggle with MLC.

I struggled with my live at home MLCer in regards to how much to interact with her. Should I be kind or just ignore her and act as if she wasn't there? There was no relationship, we were like room mates at best- except there was little communication between us. I struggled every day.

We all struggle and just to be transparent, you ask valid questions and I struggled in my response to you. I wanted to carefully ponder your question in regards to depression and reading your question today about remarriage, I will have to ponder a response to it as well.

Just know you are a thoughtful, deep, and kind person and you should cherish those qualities.

((((Ready))))



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Re: Growing #10
#93: December 14, 2020, 04:45:27 PM
Sea, I’m not really religious but I do believe that God is good. And with that thought in mind, you have done nothing wrong. If your H were to see what he has done, repent and want to come back to you one day, but after he breaks up with OWife and without you being involved as an other person, then I don’t see anything wrong with that. This would be the original family restored.

Times like Christmas really do have us monkey braining and stage watching or analysis paralysis. Accept that your thoughts are normal and part of our process. With time we learn to avert these thoughts. What I mean is that we can still have them but are aware that they can turn into a vicious spiral that only makes it harder for us.

I’m sorry you are having a down moment but if there’s one thing I’ve learnt is that these down cycles get shorter and shorter. Hugs x
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Growing #10
#94: December 15, 2020, 11:06:54 AM
Hi Sea. I am Catholic but I definitely do not know about scripture specifically, just adhere to the basic tenants.  I do not think a door is ever closed for a true reconciliations, provided both parties are willing.

I personally could not entertain the possibility of having H and OW over for cocktails. I get that we need to be co-parents for our kids and sometimes these things are necessary. But having said that, I am not sure your H would be amenable to it. Probably take it as threatening or aggressive. I think there may be a time when more normal communications will happen (I hope and pray) . And that would be the time for you to maybe consider whether to share holidays, etc.

 Like Milly said, holidays are hard on so many levels.  I think we all struggle. I know I do.  Hard to know the right thing to do b/c following our hearts isn't always the best and most wise thing for us to do. Something I currently struggle with. Hugs my friend.
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Growing #10
#95: December 16, 2020, 06:34:14 AM
Sea, You are such a good and kind and loving soul. 

I could never be in the same room as my h and any new "partner" but am in awe at your sense of grace and forgiveness.  I agree with KIT that now might not be the right time.  He is still much too angry and if I remember correctly lashing out and then not so civil about the package.  Give it some time - I worry that he would just lash out and send all meanness your way.  Sending hugs.
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Growing #10
#96: December 23, 2020, 09:26:51 AM
Thank you all (terra, ready, KIT, mal and Milly), for responding.
I've been away for a few days while S25 and his GF were visiting from out of state for Christmas celebration yesterday.  They left this morning, so a little sad and missing them already...

Terra - Thank you for your view of that biblical quote as I was looking at it in an entirely different way.  I think I wasn't paying attention to the "if she remarries then the original husband has no right to take her back".  That makes sense, and you're right - listen to God's plan - "He's got me"...

Ready - Thank you for clarification the depression of MLC versus the depression when entering stage 4, which is apparently different.  I think I was confused as my H admitted that he was depressed when he was entering Replay; so it is interesting that he admitted it, but didn't realize that he was doing the things that he did to try to overcome it. 
Not really stage watching, just re-read about the stages and that question came up.
And thank you for your comments about struggling.  I suppose that I am struggling more than I thought, but not sure why.  Something I'll put in my next post.

Milly - Thank you for reminding me that these cycles get shorter and shorter and life continues to get better and better --  with time...

KIT - I also hope that normal communication will ensue again at some point - I think I perhaps am trying to force it to be sooner than it should be.  And perhaps for the wrong reasons.

Mal - Thank you for your compliments.  I feel good and kind!   ;)   I am sure that ow would never want anything to do with me - would probably feel threatened.  After seeing how distressed she was when I ran into them in the grocery store (kind and gracious)...  She couldn't get to the check-out line fast enough!  H's anger is becoming less and less - which is a very peaceful thing.  He's not kind in any stretch of the imagination, but at least  he can text me without blaming me for something!   ???

I'm struggling with feelings, and I'll post again after I return from town.
Thank you for following along.
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Growing #10
#97: December 23, 2020, 02:46:28 PM
This holiday has been a little rough for me, and I feel like I've taken (quite a few) steps backward in my emotional healing.
I had a little pity party last night when S25 S22 and both GF went to dinner with xH and ow(wife) at their country club.
S19 and I stayed home.
Today S25 and GF left to go back to home out of state.
After they left, I realized how really lonely I felt...

I called S22 and asked if he had any special plans for Christmas.
He said he was going to be home with his GF, and I said I hoped that I could see them.  He said that he really just felt like relaxing at home, so I said I could come visit (he's about 30min away), and he said "we'll see", which really threw me off guard.
S19 is on his way to have dinner with xH.  He had to text and make sure ow wasn't going to be there because he wouldn't go...

IDK why I feel like I've slipped backwards.
I don't remember feeling lonely like this previously.  S19 and I have decorated each year and made the best of it, but this year is just blah...
Nothing feels positive.  I used to feel like I was aging well, and now I feel old, fat and ugly.
I'm not looking for sympathy - it's just the way I feel. 
I know my heart is wonderful and that I am kind, loving, full of grace, but unattractive and unwanted nonetheless.

I think that rejection on so many fronts has gotten the best of me - my husband, my job, dating sites.
It's like I've lost my confidence, and IDK how to get it back.
I'm still happy with my house, feel great that I was able to build and buy my own house, love the activities that I'm doing, etc.
Just lacking confidence. 
Perhaps it's the holidays and us not being together for the actual holiday (sons and me).  IDK. 
Perhaps it's xH marrying ow.

Whatever it is - I don't like it and I don't want to feel like a victim anymore, and I don't like having a pity party.
Maybe it's a mind-set, or something I am doing to myself. 
I just know it's a change, and I don't like it.

Anyway.  Going to take a bath and enjoy soaking.
Thanks for reading.

Sea
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Growing #10
#98: December 23, 2020, 03:30:09 PM
Hello Sea. I can very much empathise with that feeling of loneliness when your young adult kids don’t prioritise you. And it’s even worse when they’re off with their dad and OW playing happy families.

In normal circumstances of course it’s what kids of this age are meant to do. It’s how they can fledge and leave the nest. They need to take their focus off their parents and look to the outside world to be able to separate themselves from us to become their own person. It’s just very very unfortunate timing for us LBS that our MLCers (often at the same time as our kids) also choose to take their focus off us and our marriage, turn away/separate from us and run off to also ‘find themselves’ and become new people. It’s a massive double whammy isn’t it. So unfair.

And it’s a triple whammy if our fledglings decline to spend much time with us anymore, but do make time for the MLC. I comfort myself with the knowledge that that means I’m the real parent right now that they unconsciously know I will always be there for them. They don’t have to cultivate the relationship with me because they know it is rock solid. Their relationship with their father however, they intuitively feel is less solid. He’s not the one they instinctively run to anymore if they have a problem or need something. So they feel the need to cultivate that relationship.

When I’m feeling lonely and small and unchosen, I try to think about that. My kids can only confidently head off into their new lives because they have a strong mum at their back. That gives me more strength.

I am hopeless at articulating good advice here on the forum (not helped by usually reading on my phone) so I often just read and silently cheer people on. But I felt so strongly what you’re feeling today that I wanted to let you know that I know that feeling (the kids and also the unattractiveness etc). It’s not true. We’re kind, caring, compassionate people that are going through a hard time. I hope you’re on the upswing soon Sea and can find some comfort in small joys this Christmas. Xx
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Growing #10
#99: December 24, 2020, 06:52:57 AM
Well said, Evermore.

Sea, I hear you.  I understand you.  I’ve been there, too.  ((((((HUGS)))))

I dare say that you might be in the ‘next’ phase of your journey which means you did move forward.  It’s the gradual settling of the dust generated by the recent events; coming to terms with reality; sorting through and separating the wheat from the chaff in your life; rearranging your priorities.  It is a mammoth task and you seem to taking it on with courage, despite the pain.  You are very brave...

I hope that your introspection tilts the scale very much in favour of true beauty that you already possess — “I know my heart is wonderful and that I am kind, loving, full of grace’

May God grants you peace and joy.
((((HUGS))))
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Growing #10
#100: December 24, 2020, 07:49:42 AM
Hello,

Quote
I comfort myself with the knowledge that that means I’m the real parent right now that they unconsciously know I will always be there for them. They don’t have to cultivate the relationship with me because they know it is rock solid.

This is so true and they are most comfortable when they are around you. They know that they are not obligated to see you or that if they don't come, it will be used against them in the future.  That's tough and trust me, it is going to create tension in the relationship down the road.

Quote
This holiday has been a little rough for me, and I feel like I've taken (quite a few) steps backward in my emotional healing.

I am going to disagree with you here. Yes, it has been rough, but you have arrived at a point to grieve your loss. This isn't a step back, but a solid step forward.

Quote
Nothing feels positive.

That's not just a personal feeling, it is a worldwide statement.  Covid has dampened many feelings and my heart hurts for the millions that will not be here to rejoice with us on Christmas Day.

Quote
I know my heart is wonderful and that I am kind, loving, full of grace, but unattractive and unwanted nonetheless.

Well, you got part of that statement right. You are wanted and you are attractive. That is all mindset and cultural marketing con awry. There is a focus on being physically attractive to look younger, to feel younger and all of this combines to make you a better and happier person. We've even made marriage impossible because on one hand we expect our spouse to be dutiful, protective, and dependable but we also want mystery and adventure as well. The whole package of marriage has become two people deeply in love, living a perfect life, with perfect children, and eating happy cake every day.

With those expectations, we wonder why we are so depressed and disillusioned. I want you to spend the holidays celebrating you- yes, all of you including your physical presence. Love who you are- your H's crisis had nothing to do with you. Your h didn't leave you because of you, he left because of him or really the lack of him.

Take the time this holiday and admire yourself, focus on what makes you strong and yes, beautiful. Enjoy that you are here and that you do make a difference in so many lives.

It is a wonderful life and it is your life,

(((((Ready))))))



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Growing #10
#101: December 24, 2020, 08:39:30 AM

Quote
I know my heart is wonderful and that I am kind, loving, full of grace, but unattractive and unwanted nonetheless.

Well, you got part of that statement right. You are wanted and you are attractive. That is all mindset and cultural marketing con awry. There is a focus on being physically attractive to look younger, to feel younger and all of this combines to make you a better and happier person. We've even made marriage impossible because on one hand we expect our spouse to be dutiful, protective, and dependable but we also want mystery and adventure as well. The whole package of marriage has become two people deeply in love, living a perfect life, with perfect children, and eating happy cake every day.

With those expectations, we wonder why we are so depressed and disillusioned. I want you to spend the holidays celebrating you- yes, all of you including your physical presence. Love who you are- your H's crisis had nothing to do with you. Your h didn't leave you because of you, he left because of him or really the lack of him.

Take the time this holiday and admire yourself, focus on what makes you strong and yes, beautiful. Enjoy that you are here and that you do make a difference in so many lives.

It is a wonderful life and it is your life,

(((((Ready))))))

There is unending wisdom in this community, but this is among the most valuable and important messages I have read here. Please take this to heart.
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Growing #10
#102: December 24, 2020, 02:23:20 PM
Quote
IDK why I feel like I've slipped backwards.
I don't remember feeling lonely like this previously.  S19 and I have decorated each year and made the best of it, but this year is just blah...
Just because you're suffering a new wave of grief and loneliness doesn't mean you are slipping backwards. It may just mean a new round of growth pains. It's a long journey of growth and grief that we're on.

And pain does not signal failure any more than happiness signals success. If that were true, our MLCers would be far more successful than we are. and I don't think that's the case at all.

Ready already said this better, but I'll also encourage you to celebrate how far you've come and who you are. Look at all you've done! How much you've grown and learned. You have a lot to be thankful for and to celebrate about yourself. (Now if I can just convince myself to follow my own advice ::))
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Growing #10
#103: December 25, 2020, 10:16:11 AM
MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!

Thank you all who responded to my post.
I am in a better head-space today (thank you if you were praying for me -- I know someone was!)...
After a phone conversation with a friend on HS, and a pm from another, I really feel supported and like I have a network to support me.

I was sad to be along on Christmas (with S19 playing video games in his room) but understand why I am alone.  My adult sons need time with their GF and their GF families too...  I was the same when I was in my 20's.  I spent my first Christmas as an adult at the Venice Street boardwalk in SoCal alone.  Thank you Evermore for reminding me of this, and that my kids are adults now and need to start to build their own lives with their own peeps.   

It was interesting to read a few of you (Ready, Acorn and PJ) say that although I feel like I'm slipping backwards, that I'm actually progressing because I'm facing new grief and sadness that I am processing.  I hadn't thought of that before, as I have been positive and accepting, and don't really like this new phase of sadness and grief.  I know it will pass too...

Acorn - Interesting that you talk about separating the wheat from the chaff as that is an image that came to me about 20 years ago during a church small group where we were learning to listen to God's word.  I wasn't sure what to make of it at the time, so need to do a little more digging to figure out how that comes into play vis-a-vis spirituality, loneliness, growing, etc. 

As far as physical beauty - I know that if I can lose some weight and start taking better care of myself that I will feel more physically beautiful - so that is just a discipline thing that I need to attend to. 

Ready and Evermore- Thank you for reminding me that my sons DO feel comfortable around me, that it's more difficult for them to be comfortable around xH and his new wife.  They do spend time with him out of obligation, and I respect that of them.  Eventhough my xH thinks that I am the one not allowing them to see him, it is truly their choice (which perhaps he will one day understand).

Marriage has become fantasized through TV and social media to be a never-ending honeymoon of happiness.  I don't go on FB anymore because I thought it was ridiculous.  Same with the blasted Christmas cards, but I seem to be finding those more down-to-earth - perhaps because people aren't traveling to these amazing destinations they like to boast about on Christmas cards. 

I just received my 10-year recertification in my medical specialty - so there's that to celebrate.  I kind of downplay it, but I guess it's at least allowed me to work on the intellectual aspect of my PIES. 

As an aside, I did text xH today to wish him a happy Christmas and safe, healthy new year.  I also said that I was happy that all the boys were able to spend time with him.  I do not expect an answer, which is completely fine.  I actually felt bad after I sent it because I wasn't even thinking about how he feels that I unfairly usurp time with the boys, and he felt cheated out of time with them.  Oh well,  It was sent with good intentions and positive thoughts.  I can't help how he feels, so not spending too much time worrying about it. 

Thank you to all of you who have supported and uplifted me during my rough times.
We truly have an amazing group of people on this forum, and I am appreciative.
I hope that your holiday is magical and full of joy and peace.

Hugs to you all, 
Sea
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Growing #10
#104: December 25, 2020, 10:29:25 AM
Merry Christmas, Sea!

It's weird having the first non Christmas Christma's for me, but the whole experience of having Christmas early proved it's not the day but the spirit behind it that matters, however one celebrates.  I figure at some point my kids and I will have Christmas in July.

I'm glad you are in a better head space. Sometimes we have to mull through everything to reset ourselves. I know I still occasionally cycle around and think it's really just part of life. We just have that additional MLC trauma to add to what rolls around in our minds from time to time.

I wish you a very happy ( figuratively speaking) new and improved year in 2021!
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Re: Growing #10
#105: December 25, 2020, 04:50:17 PM
Sea, I'm glad to read that you are in a slightly better place today. I think your sadness right now is to be expected. Christmas is hard for anyone who has lost, and then Covid restrictions and families losing loved ones every day has really put a damper on this holiday. Nobody knows what to expect in the next few months. That feeling of not knowing what is going to happen is a bit of a trigger for us LBSes. We don't like it.

I'm sorry you didn't have two of your sons with you today. I can imagine it would hurt to have your sons spend time with your H and OW while you are alone. So many LBSes alone today because of our MLCer's choices. It feels very unfair. All we wanted was a family to be with.

Since BD, I have invited my girlfriend and her D over for lunch. It gives me the security that even if my kids could not join me for Christmas one year, my girlfriend and I will be together on this day.

For what it's worth, when I'm having a low day, I also think about what I look like and I don't like it, when just like you, I didn't mind aging before. Now it feels like any chance of being attractive is slipping through my fingers. I think the way we were left, and the stage in our lives when this happened, really damaged our self esteem. This is something we just have to accept or work on improving. I also would like to lose weight because I know it would give me confidence, but I know it would take work and I feel like 'what for?'

But onto the two big positives that you mention: your own home and the recertification of your medical specialty, well done! and what a nice security for you.

I hope that as the days pass, you manage to get back into an upward cycle again. Sometimes I find that simply accepting that I'm sad at a given time, for whatever the reason, is ok and allowed, helps me stop feeling guilty about it. We will continue to grieve for a long time, but hopefully it will come in shorter spurts.x
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Growing #10
#106: December 26, 2020, 11:05:06 AM
Sea, I read some of the advice given about your prior comment and it was spot on.  A new cycle of grief only means further growth and a deeper healing.  I’m so glad you feel a bit better.  It sure is crazy the roller coaster ride the holidays can be when we are grieving.  Praying your New Year is filled with peace, strength and Joy!
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Growing #10
#107: December 27, 2020, 07:30:27 AM
OR, FJ and Milly -
Thanks for following along.
I never really thought much about myself grieving - that was always for "other people", but I know that it is normal and healthy to grieve if you lose something that you love.  I just don't want to sit there and wallow in it, but perhaps acknowledging and entertaining it is a healthy thing for me. 

Milly - I think you're right about losing our self-esteem.  I think once we start working on feeling better about ourselves, it will all kind of push our self esteem along back into the positive balance. - At least that's what I'm hoping for...

Update:
I later got a text returned from H:  "Merry Christmas.  Have you seen S23 - he was supposed to be here over an hour ago?".  I replied that I had a few texts earlier in the day, otherwise no.  I called S23 and he fell asleep and he and GF didn't go to H's house for Christmas.  I was a bit triggered as this is the S who said he wanted to be alone for Christmas, so it hurt to me that he told me that he wanted to just spend it with his GF, yet had made plans to go to his dad and new family's house.  I felt a little better that he didn't go, and perhaps he really ever planned on it - probably just said yes to appease xH and ow.  My S23 is not one to make or follow through with commitments very well.

The other strange thing is that S19 got a Christmas card from xH.  It only had his name on the return address.  It was a photo card, and I was nauseous because I figured it would be a wedding picture, but it was a card of their pets in front of the Christmas tree with ow name, xH name and pet names.  I am wondering (not that it matters) if xH got some cards made without wedding photos to send to select people.  Very odd to me... 

So - enjoying my last relaxing day before work week starts again.  Off work tomorrow but tons of errands, so...
Time to do laundry, change the water filter, feed the birds, squirrels and deer... 
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Growing #10
#108: December 28, 2020, 10:26:38 AM
Sea you are beyond gracious in sending Christmas blessings to H. And it was well received. Kindness is never wasted.

Well congrats on the certification--indeed a HUGE accomplishment.  And a new home.  If you are like me though, when these things happen, we want to share it with our "person" who for whatever reason doesn't want to share their life with us for the moment. It is such a devastating feeling and one that goes away verrrrrrrrrrrrry slowly.

This whole experience wreaks havoc on our self esteem. Being unequivocally rejected, thrown away and replaced immediately, is a hard thing to overcome. And thinking it is b/c of "MLC" doesn't really help us does it? B/c there is always that little part in our brain that says, "...if only I have done this or said that...." Nope. It's not us. Never was. But that is our work. Regaining the confidence we once had. I mean, you are a medical professional with a specialty certification. You raised a family and held a household together. Your children are good decent kind humans. A few extra  pounds will never negate the profound impact you had on your children's lives, and likely the lives of the many you have helped in your incredible career.  And all the while being treated like crap from your MLCer, you have been nothing but kind and gracious-- two more  qualities that are fundamentally more important than any other. 

Merry Christmas my friend!
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Growing #10
#109: December 29, 2020, 09:47:40 AM
Sea,

You are so kind and gracious in sending the Christmas wishes.  I understand your feeling of double thinking everything - the walking on eggshells, so that he does not read anything nefarious in a nice gesture.  I am glad he messaged holiday wishes back, he must realize how kind and gracious you are. 

Such an odd and rough Christmas for all of us, but I am glad you did have one S with you for the day. Sorry for the triggers and any unintentional hurt.   Letting go of our children is so difficult as we once asserted our own independence at their age, but now, we treasure the family time so much more.  It is so strong of you to let them "fly." And, now we learn to celebrate that there are 12 days of Christmas. 

Learning more about grief as I read along.  It is multi-layered.  Sometimes it is tinged with hope and that makes it easier to bear, but when we peel away that layer, sometimes the one below is more formidable.  Like you, grief was not something I considered, I mourned losses, but I did not grieve.  So, learning how to grieve is a new experience.

Sending you warm wishes for the new year.  Congratulations on your certification!
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Growing #10
#110: December 29, 2020, 04:37:17 PM
Thank you Mal -
I didn't expect to hear from him, and yet  not sure that his intentions were kind and good.
I want to take them but also need to consider that honestly probably only reached out for:
1.  To find out where S23 was (he was over an hour late, not answering his phone, supposed to be at xH's house for family Christmas Dinner)
2.  To let me know that S23 was spending Christmas day with a "family" and not sitting home like I was, and rub my nose in that a little. 

IDK - probably monkey braining, but just thoughts that came to my mind.

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Re: Growing #10
#111: December 31, 2020, 05:26:03 PM
Sea, you are very gracious as everyone says. I don't know that your H asked about S23 for ulterior motives because I don't think our MLCers are that calculating. Yes, they are very mean, but usually it's on impulse and not premeditated like the OW is. I suspect your H was worried about S23 and reached out to you as he would have in the past because you are his mother. Maybe a tiny gap in the fog where you were both just S23's mum and dad.

I want to re-point out some of the achievements in your life: your home, because that is HUGE. So many LBSes lose their home in this mess, or have to move into rentals or a room in someone's house. Being able to keep a beautiful home is such a positive. Then your career. This just goes to show what an intelligent, hard working woman you are. I know it doesn't make your situation any easier, especially at this time of year. But maybe in a month or two, you'll be able to enjoy these major positives. And that is without even mentioning your boys, and S19 at home with you where he feels safe and cosy and supported and not judged.

Sending you lots of good wishes for 2021. xxxx
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Growing #10
#112: January 11, 2021, 08:47:02 PM
Sea, reading this Christmas update late as I've been terrible at maintaining my presence on the forum here a bit.

I'm sorry that it had some downs.  Reading Ready's response to you helped me too as I feel a lot of the same things as you.

Your new home with the forest critters sounds so lovely!
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Growing #10
#113: January 16, 2021, 04:36:37 PM
Seahorse,

You my love, are GROWING, EVOLVING.  Look in that mirror and see the lovely beautiful strong loving woman we do....we are SO VERY PROUD of you. 

Drop the monkey brain, it has no place in your life anymore.   :)
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I never lose.  I either win or learn! - Nelson Mandela

For we have fallen from our shelves, To face the truth about ourselves.  "The Gift", Annie Lennox

Hmmm....to cross the monkey bars, you have to let go.....

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Growing #10
#114: February 18, 2021, 01:53:40 PM
Hello friends.
Just wanted to update.
On the “H” front, nothing really.  Reached out a couple of weeks ago asking about S19s insurance card, otherwise he’s radio-silence.
I’m a little better emotionally.
Still love and miss him, but realize that he’s far from the man I married 30 years ago.
It appears he is happy in his new marriage, but as a another poster said (I think it was Beyond Blessed), they’d rather eat glass than admit they made a mistake.  Or, perhaps my H really is happy.  Doesn’t really matter does it?  Just searching for things to make my bruised ego feel better...
Work is a little better.
Love the winter beauty in the NorthEast.
Trying to find joy in all (at least most) things...
Will post again when something comes up.

Sea
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Growing #10
#115: February 18, 2021, 06:13:28 PM
Hello, Sea......I've followed your thread somewhat, but don't think I've ever posted.  Do you really think they do the awful things they do and sleep soundly?  I don't,  but then again, I have a conscience.  They try to assuage their guilt through projection, compartmentalization, gaslighting, and diving deep into their addictions, but they can't run forever.  It eats at them, day and night, in the quiet moments.  Of that, I have no doubt.  Have you ever put on a happy face when you weren't feeling it??  I know I have.  I can promise, they have done the same.

But, as you said, does it matter one way or the other what they are feeling?  I've been detached a years and going no contact early on really cut my emotions for him and his bs off at the knees.  Once I moved far enough away from what I thought I had in my marriage, I could see there were things happening that I couldn't see then because I was too close.  Those things are the reason I moved on.  Once I knew the things he'd chosen to do, there was never going to be a way back from that.  So, to that point, I am indifferent to him and his life.  He could win the lottery or he could get flattened by the karma bus...I just don't care.  Now that is detachment and freedom.
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Growing #10
#116: February 19, 2021, 05:39:23 AM
Hello,

Quote
On the “H” front, nothing really.  Reached out a couple of weeks ago asking about S19s insurance card, otherwise he’s radio-silence.

Sometimes, you need silence to heal more than any words. For me, I did more healing when I was away from her than the days of living with her and being treated like a ghost.

Quote
diving deep into their addictions,

There is a lot in this statement. The addiction masks the emptiness, it may alleviate symptoms but it doesn't cure. Soon the addiction becomes a bigger problem than the original issue.

Quote
But, as you said, does it matter one way or the other what they are feeling?

This is another issue that I have pondered for years. In the years that followed, I was secretly thrilled at my ex's failures. I think it built my esteem. It enabled me to feel that I wasn't the source of her misery. "See, it wasn't me. You are no happier now then you were with me." If I felt she was happy, then it justified all of her actions and she was right, it was me after all. This mindset kept me from detaching. Once again focused on an outcome of someone else to determine my own sense of self.

Instead of focusing on their "happiness" or "misery" , shift gears and think would I be happy living with this person now?  Not the h of the past, or the possible h of the future, but the h of the present.  I don't love the exW of the present. She's not the person that I married, and she's not the person that I respected and admired. It's not about her happiness and as far as I know, she is quite content with her life, but it no longer impacts me. Her life now no longer validates mine.

I have not forgiven her but I have learned acceptance and it brings me peace of heart. I can look back at my former marriage and celebrate the happy moments and cherish the times we were a family. Because of this, I still care about my ex and I truly hope she finds what she seeks. I just know that what she seeks is not what I seek, and I can live with that.

My quote that I stole from Xyzcf, "Fast from sadness and fill yourself with gratitude"

Have a great weekend,

(((((Ready))))


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Growing #10
#117: February 19, 2021, 09:38:08 PM
Thanks for the update Seahorse. I'm glad you're a little better. Also glad work is a little better.

Here's to finding joy in all things, in small things, and in unexpected places.
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Together 28 years, married 27. Two adult kids, ours

BD #1: 2016 - EA  |  BD #2: 2018 - FA

W moved out - June 2019 | OM#3 - July 2019
W asks for divorce - August 2019 | Divorce final - September 2019 | Moving on

My thread: https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11537.new#new

New Here? Read this! http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1149.0

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Growing #10
#118: February 20, 2021, 12:14:25 PM
thing really.  Reached out a couple of weeks ago asking
Doesn’t really matter does it?  Just searching for things to make my bruised ego feel better...

This is another issue that I have pondered for years. In the years that followed, I was secretly thrilled at my ex's failures. I think it built my esteem. It enabled me to feel that I wasn't the source of her misery. "See, it wasn't me. You are no happier now then you were with me." If I felt she was happy, then it justified all of her actions and she was right, it was me after all. This mindset kept me from detaching. Once again focused on an outcome of someone else to determine my own sense of self.

Wow, Sea and Ready, some remarkably frank statements.  I have to agree with you because I have been there! 
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Growing #10
#119: February 21, 2021, 05:58:46 AM
Quote
It appears he is happy in his new marriage, but as a another poster said (I think it was Beyond Blessed), they’d rather eat glass than admit they made a mistake.  Or, perhaps my H really is happy.
Quote
  They try to assuage their guilt through projection, compartmentalization, gaslighting, and diving deep into their addictions, but they can't run forever.  It eats at them, day and night, in the quiet moments.
If there is one thing that most lbs can be sure of, it’s this.  Happiness is elusive and shame will follow and torment them to the grave (unless they are sociopaths with no conscience).   Pr 6:22-23, gives me some peace because it guarantees there is at least this consequence for treating us the way they did. 
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Growing #10
#120: February 26, 2021, 01:14:56 PM
Thank you for your responses:
Beyond - I hope that I can attain that level of detachment one day.  I realize that my H no longer is a person of integrity, but I think, although can't be sure, that the man that I married was.  So I think it's the hope of things that could be that keep me clinging onto that one thread.  I would never want what he has become in his present state.
And Ready - I think that speaks to what you said as well -- "I no longer love the xW of the present", nor would I want him (my H) in my life.  I can do without the stress and belittling.  But, I DO believe that I  have forgiven my H for what he did and the hurt he caused.  It's not fair, I don't like it and I get angry at times, but I do forgive him -- not that he would ask, or that he believes that he has done anything wrong.
Anon - hard to tell if H is happy, but at least it appears that way.  He would be the only one who can answer the question...  I think I  have found a deep well of peace - however not quite all-encompassing yet...

PJ and Acorn - thank you for your thoughts and for following along.

Update to follow.
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Growing #10
#121: February 26, 2021, 01:27:06 PM
I posted on a newbie post last night about my recommendation NOT to go on social media looking for trouble.  Here's why after a year...
I made the horrible mistake of going on Hs FB last night - it's been a year since I've been on.
It wasn't quite intentional until it was.  I was on there looking to see if I knew a friend request and somehow just ended up there.

I didn't think I was very bothered until I started writing about it, and realized that perhaps I was.  Not enough to comb it with a fine-toothed comb, but just enough to get a little weepy.  Mostly about what could have been, now that we're nearing retirement.  They travel so much during this pandemic and eat out almost every night it seems.  They have at least 2 other hones besides primary.  And also how much he seems to love and cherish her and how every comment is about "my beautiful wife".  He never ONCE posted about me on FB...

Okay enough -   Some friends from here calmed me down this morning, and made me realize that Fakebook really is that and that mentally healthy adult males don't need to post about how happy they are, how famous their relatives are, how wonderful, blah blah blah.  So - I'm better now, but wanted to post. 

Just signed up for a Sugar Shack outdoor supper with a friend which will be amazing!

Thank you friends for being there...

Sea
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Growing #10
#122: February 26, 2021, 02:04:26 PM
Yup, it's all fake.  Facebook is for those who want to passive aggressively get a dig at someone, in some cases anyway.  ::)

Something I read last night that compares our R with our spouse, compared to his R with his ow.   You went the distance, they won't.  Nor will any other MLC relationship go the distance.

"Love is a temporary madness. It erupts like an earthquake and then subsides. And when it subsides you have to make a decision. You have to work out whether your roots have become so entwined together that it is inconceivable that you should ever part. Because this is what love is. Love is not breathlessness, it is not excitement, it is not the promulgation of promises of eternal passion. That is just being in love which any of us can convince ourselves we are. Love itself is what is left over when being in love has burned away, and this is both an art and a fortunate accident".

Saint Augustine
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Growing #10
#123: February 26, 2021, 02:05:05 PM
Hugs Sea!

It is so easy to post on social media and make life look great. I think it should be mandatory to post real "behind the scenes" photos or the bloopers like at the end of some of the movies. lol.
Hugs N Prayers,
FN
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 Isaiah 43:1 " But the Lord says.. Fear not, for I have redeemed you; I have summoned you by name; you are mine. "

"It's ok to be scared. Being scared means you're about to do something really, really brave." Anonymous

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Re: Growing #10
#124: February 26, 2021, 02:53:54 PM
Sea that made me laugh.  I know lots of happily married couple who never rave about there amazing and wonderful their spouse on FB, unless it is an anniversary or something.

I would have thought my H was losing it if he had done that. I know my friends would have laughed.  So high school-ish.  Ha ha

Maybe she's writing it herself.   ;D  You never know....

Ok no more looking at their fake life, ok?  You've been doing really well.

Love n Hugs
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A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

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Growing #10
#125: February 26, 2021, 06:25:20 PM
Anon, FN and Thunder -
I think we're all in agreement that love isn't rainbows and unicorns that fart glitter (thank you UM).
It is truly what's left over after all that subsides and is the true grit of a relationship.
Limerence will not last forever, and we will see then what a marriage between two people without integrity looks like.
--  Well someone will see, but it won't be me.
I'm done looking at FB (to the best of my ability). 
I was actually amazed that it had been over a year and I wasn't really missing the drama.

Thank you for your thoughts.
Sea
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Growing #10
#126: February 26, 2021, 11:54:37 PM
Ah, Sea....maybe that was the unintended 'gift' of accidentally seeing it  :)

For anyone else struggling with social media, I recommend trying what a friend suggested to me. Take a day. Pause every couple of hours and think what pic you would post based on what you are doing and feeling. (Don't ACTUALLY post anything, just imaginary posts!) How authentic a reflection of your real day and life would it be? What kind of message would you be trying to send out to the World and why? What would a stranger assume about your life based on it? How would your day be improved if others 'liked' or commented on it? It's quite an interesting process......

(As an example, I woke up yesterday having cried myself to sleep bc I had heard that an old friend had died of covid the night before. Woke up with a face that looked like someone had punched me and wild hair. Feeling pretty sad and alone and weirdly envious that this friend had a family to mourn for him when I don't. Then I sowed some seeds in my greenhouse listening to a podcast story. The sun was shining and I got myself back to feeling quite content. Then I tackled some ivy on one of my garden jobs and felt pleased with a cleared bed and a tied in quince. And giggled bc the owners little dog came to 'help' but her version of helping usually involves trying to lick my face or lie on her back just where I am weeding with a little doggy smile hoping I'll tickle her tummy! Then, walking back, I bumped into some new local friends - an artist and his doctor wife - and we had the loveliest chat about hedgelaying, drinking too much, recent snow and garden parties to come. He's very witty, so quite a few belly laughs involved. Back home for a bath, glass of Bordeaux, pepperoni pizza and an early night with a book and a cat!.......so what would it have looked like if I had FBed any of that? I didn't lol...but I could have. What would have been more authentic....the sad start gazing out of my window, the picture of seeds in trays or playing with the dog in the sunshine or that funny chat with the new chums? Do you see what I mean? )

And Sea, fwiw, particularly after a long marriage where your own plans for the life you'd have got eaten, when you sometimes feel perhaps as if there was a 'competition' that ow 'won'.....I would recommend the habit of noting three good things about your day every evening before you go to sleep. Sometimes they will be tiny, sometimes big...but they should be things for which you feel grateful or that gave you joy. Why does it help? Well, I think we LBS can train our brains to look more at the good things we actually have as opposed to the perhaps good things that we don't have. And I found that it unconsciously taught me to not let the moments of joy or achievement or contentment whiz past.....you could even keep your own photos on your phone to remind you or share them privately with good friends  :)
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"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

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Re: Growing #10
#127: February 27, 2021, 03:06:35 AM
Thanks for posting your feelings, Sea. I think we can all relate to how you felt after seeing their fakebook photos. As others have already said, facebook is for showing off, it's for letting others believe our lives are beautiful and full of fun. I'm guilty of that, too. In fact, if I just analyze my own use of social media, yes, I post when I'm having a good day and something special is happening, but also to counter balance what my life is actually life - the complete opposite.

And regarding us looking occasionally at FB and Instagram, I know that I would look with the secret hope that I'd see signs of trouble in their relationship. I never saw that on these platforms. Although I knew, because of people telling me, that so much nasty drama was going on at the time. Of course only seeing the posts of my H and OW in some beautiful location, with lovely lunches, and big smiles make me feel like total crap. So I have completely banned that to myself now.

Good advice from Treasur, makes me want to make a folder of photos of the good things in my day, just to remind myself. This is why posting our feelings on here is important. Others, that we are not aware of are going through the exact same feelings, and they get some advice, too.

Surviving BD is soo hard. No one should tell themselves off because they are not happy yet, have not moved on yet, can't stop thinking of their Hs. We seem to need to go through the whole list of bereavement phases a few times before we suddenly land on a better ledge.
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Growing #10
#128: February 27, 2021, 08:36:00 AM
Sea,

You also posted this in a newbie’s thread yesterday.

“Post often and anytime.
DO  NOT tell your H about the site - both my H and his ow made profiles so they could see what I was posting.
DO NOT mention MLC because they don't believe hey have a problem.”

This is also evidence of how unstable the OW and your H are. Who inserts themselves into a marriage and actively looks for ways to make the spouse look bad.....A highly damaged and manipulative person. Conversely, they also manipulate how people view them.  To instigate their fake friends to comment, which validate their fake made up life.




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Growing #10
#129: February 27, 2021, 09:04:04 AM
This is also evidence of how unstable the OW and your H are. Who inserts themselves into a marriage and actively looks for ways to make the spouse look bad.....A highly damaged and manipulative person. Conversely, they also manipulate how people view them.  To instigate their fake friends to comment, which validate their fake made up life.

No to justify it, but my H walked behind me and saw the site.  He was curious because he though it was about HIM being the hero and how sweet it was.  When he saw what I posted, he left home because he said that I had posted horrible things about him.  I'm pretty sure that ow was just curious, but interesting she's been on the site as recently as last year.  So, I don't think he went on there to make me look bad, but it worked out in his favor because he could use my horrible words about him to make me look bad.

But yes, they certainly are unstable and not good-hearted people.  (Of course, I didn't  have a very good heart by saying bad things about him, but was hurt and angry - not to make excuses).

Not my circus...
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« Last Edit: February 27, 2021, 09:05:50 AM by Seahorse »

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Growing #10
#130: March 03, 2021, 04:24:26 PM
So I was driving and thinking today.

Through this whole MLC ordeal and crisis, we so badly want our H's back --  at least in the beginning.
But some of us hold onto hope even after we don't believe that we would want our H's back even if they did return.
So, I was thinking -- why is this so?  Why do we want someone that we no longer respect, someone who did what they did to us and our families?

I was wondering if it's perhaps because we didn't have a choice.
AND everyone wants a choice.
I wonder if the reason I want my H to return is to determine if I really want him - and that gets to be MY choice.
Compared to BD and our loss when we had no say in the matter. -- we were victims of the hurt and trauma and had no voice.

So I've been wondering -- if given a choice -- what would I choose?
Only time will tell, but I do hope that one day I have that choice.
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Growing #10
#131: March 03, 2021, 04:53:38 PM
I have wondered the same thing.   In the beginning I wanted him back to work on rebuilding.  A couple of years later, I wanted him back to see if there was any point and then be able to choose if I went for it or not.  Now, I want him to want to come back so I can say “Over my dead body” or something similar.   
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Growing #10
#132: March 03, 2021, 04:55:40 PM
Anon - You're so funny!
I'm not there yet, but I would (one day) like to have a choice.

Sea
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Growing #10
#133: March 03, 2021, 05:06:14 PM
Funny?  No Sea - I am dead serious  >:(    ,,,,,  ::)    :D
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Growing #10
#134: March 03, 2021, 08:10:31 PM
Sea,

Why would he have to return to give you that choice?

Also....it’s a false choice....he isn’t that person anymore....he will never be that person again.

You’ll never be that innocent again either.

One last tough question. With enormous amounts of love. Who’s the main character? Your life is a story.....in this chapter who’s the main character?

❤️ Courage

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“God allows us to feel the frailty of human love so we’ll appreciate the strength of his.” C.S. Lewis

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Growing #10
#135: March 04, 2021, 02:58:26 AM
Courage -

Thank you for your response.

He would have to return to give me that choice because I am still in love with the person I married (always will be).  I know he is no longer that person, but I do not know what he could become.  (God can do miracles, however has not yet in this case.)

I will never be that innocent again, correct.  And for that I am truly thankful.

I am the main character in my current chapter.  I have had amazing costars in xH (prince turned villain) and my kids.   Although I will always be the main character, who knows what the future chapters will hold and who will be my supporting actors?...

Only time will tell...
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Re: Growing #10
#136: March 04, 2021, 11:13:53 AM
Sea, I'm with Anon, I too have wondered this crazy question. I wanted my H back at all costs, wanted him back so I could be the one with the power to choose for my own life, want him back to tell him to get lost so he can hurt and feel rejected this time. There are probably more options still to come.

I really wondered for a long time, still do, if my wanting H to return was simply for revenge. A chance to prove to myself that he did want me after all, and a chance to show the OW, who I still feel in competitions with, that I won in the end. It all sounds very petty I'm sure, but feelings have minds of their own.

I believe it's better for us to say it out loud, to admit how we're feeling and try to analize it. Our intellect knows what is best and knows what we shouldn't do. Shame other organs in our body don't want to obey.

I think in the long run, the two organs will co-align, but I suspect that's going to take more time.
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Growing #10
#137: March 04, 2021, 12:14:40 PM
Sea, you are right about not being given the chance to voice our desires about saving our marriages, but given that these fools all knew the risks they were taking and what they stood to lose and they still did the deeds anyway, the choice to choose us is wide open. 

The choice to put ourselves first and never tolerate that kind of disrespect and emotional abuse ever again is where true detachment and self love begin.  Not only do.I never want him to come crawling back, I truly hope we never cross paths again.  He was never the prize.
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Growing #10
#138: March 04, 2021, 03:13:23 PM
I think part of the thought process is that we never got to finish the spouse chapter. It's like eating your favorite meal and saving your favorite part for last, and someone takes it away before you got to finish it. Worse, it just disappeared and you don't know where it went.

It's the unfinishedness of it all. Sure, you can get another meal, but you'll always wonder what happened to the last one. Why did it disappear? Should I have eaten my favorite part first? Should I just not place importance on a favorite anything? But mostly, for me, its because someone took my control of me away from me.

I didn't get to know my meal would disappear, therefore I didn't get to choose how to eat it knowing it would disappear. Instead, I am stuck with "How do I REACT now that it is gone".  That stinks. Period.

For me, I don't like someone taking away my ability to finish something, and forcing me to eat a different meal, even if I like it, even if I like it better.
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Growing #10
#139: March 05, 2021, 02:04:23 AM
At its root, it’s about abandonment, I feel.  Abandonment is terrifying because at a primal level, belonging  has to do with survival.  A rejection is lack of acceptance; lack of belonging and exclusion from our own secure base.

Anger is about being put in danger by someone we trusted wholeheartedly , and vengeful feelings are there too and seem a bit different to me from the fear at the outset.

In the modern world we will be ok, and abandonment doesn’t mean being an outcast any more,  but it doesn’t feel like that for a long time.  Betrayal really is bad. 😣
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Growing #10
#140: March 05, 2021, 03:12:35 AM
Nerissa sounds about right.
Plus tbh it is probably also about a need for some kind of control which is a natural reaction to trauma and being a victim of events outside our control that were life-altering.

It's good, Sea, that you are musing on this for yourself and being honest about the icky bits of it. Often I have found these musings presage quite helpful shifts in my own perspective. And sometimes that the answer lies somewhere else than where I thought it did....or tbh that my question has evolved into a different kind of question with a different kind of answer  :)
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Growing #10
#141: March 05, 2021, 07:38:45 AM
Thank you everyone for your thoughts and responses.
My initial musings were more to the effect of "perhaps this is why some stand and others choose not to", but I think it was misinterpreted by some of the responses that I got.

I am not "waiting" for my H to return.  I am just waiting...  for whatever the future holds...
I  have never wanted him back to reject him.  I honestly don't think that much about whether I want him back or why I might.  Those are only questions that can be answered when/if (unlikely) he ever returns.  I am resigned to the fact that it is likely that he won't ever return, which is fine.  If that's what my future holds.

I mostly don't feel in competition with ow because she didn't really win anything.  Sure, I am upset that she is a home-wrecker and a person with bad character and morals, but those kind of people are ever-present in our society.  It just happens that my H chose to marry one.  His mistake.  I think he will realize it at some point.  But perhaps their two personality disorders will co-align and work perfectly for each other's happiness.  I'm not angry and not bitter, for the most part.  Hurt and sad sometimes (albeit less and less), but that's okay and normal.

I would have liked to discussed our marriage and it's issues before divorcing, and to have a final say in the matter.  But, that didn't happen, and that is what I have a hard time accepting sometimes.  I know it's normal in MLC, but just so unfair (for all of us).

Off Road - I think I'll start eating dessert first so it doesn't disappear.  Your analogy was pretty spot-on for me...

And yes Nerissa - Abandonment is so difficult and I feel so abandoned on so many levels, some completely unrelated to MLC (work is as bad as MLC for me).  So the abandonment of almost everything I had at one fell-swoop was really difficult.  And at work, like MLC, I never really had a discussion, just a "you're not good enough" sense of abandonment.  Pretty devastating.

And control - loss of control is a pretty deep issue with me, as I used to be a pretty controlling person.  I subsequently have become more of an accepting and passive person, but not to the point of being a rug.  I still voice my concerns and control the things which affect me directly and are in my control.  Much healthier, but I had no idea before learning about all of this that I was controlling really. 

So, thank you my friends who have answered.  I think you all know I respect you and love you all. 
Thanks for letting me process my thoughts on here, and perhaps offer some explanations for what I've been thinking.


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Growing #10
#142: March 05, 2021, 09:58:08 AM
Quote
And control - loss of control is a pretty deep issue with me, as I used to be a pretty controlling person.

Worth remembering, Sea, that control is often about safety at some level....as we feel safer, we feel less of a need to control the uncertainties of life I suspect. So, perhaps less about ones innate character and more about habits of how we deal with the circumstances of our life.....

I used to be pretty comfortable with spontaneity and not particularly controlling in most bits of my life. The three bits where I was more controlling were about my work standards (bc it mattered to my sense of self), supporting my family (bc they mattered to me and I had some values about being a decent daughter/wife/friend/human) and money (bc I worried about it as a self employed person). Did they make me controlling in my relationship? Well, not very bc I saw these as self-control issues mostly lol. But perhaps it meant I had expectations of how a decent partner would behave to support me or at least not make things more difficult. Seems pretty normal to me in a partnership tbh....my then h was in many ways much more controlling than me bc he was more anxious about life generally than I was.
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« Last Edit: March 05, 2021, 10:05:34 AM by Treasur »
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.
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Growing #10
#143: March 07, 2021, 11:28:43 AM
So I sent my H a text yesterday with a question about tax forms.
I said that I would send them to him, and said that I hope that he is doing well.
He read the response, but didn't reply.

I didn't expect him to, because that's typically what he does.
But I realized that a "normal" person would at least say "thank you" or "I'm fine".
At least, that's what I think.

Just solidifies the fact that he's not the person I once knew.

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Growing #10
#144: March 08, 2021, 07:47:45 AM
Warning:  Christian post with Biblical reference...

This was my Bible reading today, and thought it might help anyone out there who feels like they're alone in the wilderness...

Deuteronomy 8 (excerpts and annotated):

God led you for 40 years through the wilderness, pushing you to your limits, testing you.
He put you through hard times; he made you go hungry.
Then he fed you with manna.

If you keep God's commandments, he will bring you into a land you'll be blessed with everything that you need, and more.
Everyday be blessed by what He has given you, and never worship false Gods or you will be destroyed.

I am not sure why I wanted to share that, other than to give hope for anyone in a dry period right now, and to remind you that there are amazing things for us on the other side of this journey that we are on.

I hope that this helps some of you to remember that there is hope and happiness in your future.
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« Last Edit: March 08, 2021, 07:54:38 AM by Seahorse »

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Growing #10
#145: March 09, 2021, 09:43:10 PM
Thanks for sharing, Sea!

I feel you on the read the text but doesn't reply front.  My MLCer used to do that all the time, but God forbid I ever do the same.  It's frustrating but I've learned to let it go and limit how many times I put myself back in that situation.
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Growing #10
#146: March 13, 2021, 01:32:48 PM
Hello,

Before UM gives us the warning that it is time to start a new thread.

Quote
I am not sure why I wanted to share that, other than to give hope for anyone in a dry period right now, and to remind you that there are amazing things for us on the other side of this journey that we are on.

Thank you for the post. As I have often stated, even in my old age and so far past bomb drop, people on the forum still encourage me with their wise and warm words.

Have a great weekend,

(((((Ready))))
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Growing #10
#147: March 14, 2021, 07:24:34 AM
Sea,
I had thought initially for a very long time that it was the loss of control I had over my life that was one of the hardest parts.

Now I discover that it was only the loss of the illusion that I ever had control.

I have to remind myself many times a day that the only thing I have and have ever had and will ever have control over is my thoughts, the story I tell myself, my response and how I deal with my emotions, and the choices I make.

It doesn’t seem like that would be very comforting....but when making choices between 2 things and neither of them is what I actually want...it’s nice to lay down the responsibility of always creating the choices we wish we had.  It allows me to let go and accept what is.....and then tell myself a story that is more empowering.

Sending you love.

Courage ❤️
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Growing #10
#148: March 14, 2021, 09:04:17 AM
Thank you Sea for sharing your reading. So often scripture speaks to us deeply.

Quote
Then he fed you with manna.

This has been a hard week for me, losing my loved dog, a year of isolation, not being able to visit my family...yet I know He is with me and each day I have to try as much as possible to trust in His plan for me.

Thanks Sea
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Growing #10
#149: May 23, 2021, 06:44:21 AM
So I haven't posted in awhile.
Nothing new to post, really...  But now I come to share, for myself.

I've been struggling lately; not sure why now compared to a year ago.
Perhaps it's because my move from the marital home is complete and I've settled down here.
Perhaps it's because my two younger sons are struggling in their lives.
Perhaps it's because I don't really love my job, (but no other option available without moving to another state.)
Perhaps it's because I still love my husband (version 1.0) and miss him terribly.

I've been doing a lot of betrayal recovery work through podcasts and it seems to be helping to a degree.
I just can't seem to let go.

I found out, unintentionally, that my H and his wife (ow) are on a vacation far away (10 hour plane ride) this week.  Only this morning did I realize that this is the week that he asked her to marry him last year, so suspect their celebrating that anniversary.  He's never taken me to this place of tropical bliss...

I had a dream last night that he and I ended up together casually one day (it was like a picnic).  He seemed to want to get closer, and at one point said that a friend had summed it up.  She told him that he had lost the best thing that he ever had, and he agreed.  But he also agreed that because he was now married that he was unable to do anything about it.  I suspect I need to parse out why my subconscious brain would have me dream that?  Deep wishes, searching to find that glimmer of hope underneath my deep layer of rejection?

Anyway - 4 days will be my anniversary (4 years) of bomb drop.

I have no idea if my H is happy or not in his new marriage.  I suspect that I never will.
I know that I am happy in my new little home, comfortable and simple. 
I don't need elaborate, frequent vacations.
I don't need designer clothes (but love good quality clothes).
I have a few very good friends (some, thanks to this site).
I have my 3 sons who love me endlessly.
I am enjoying being out of doors doing things in the beautiful state where I live.

So, despite my funk and delve into sadness over the last year, I do have so much to be thankful for.
And I am aware of that, and am thankful for it all.
It's just that I've fallen into a pit that I need to climb back out of.  Brought on by the permanency and finality of the end of my marriage and the fact that I'm getting older and my appearances are showing it.  I have not gracefully aged in the last 5 years, sadly.  I was always proud of my looks, and now am a bit disgusted - or maybe disappointed.  Realizing that my H will now almost certainly never come back because he is remarried, and has such vile feelings about me and our marriage. 

Anyway - I wanted to post as it's been awhile.
I am, generally, happy but had to just let you all know what I've been going through emotionally.

Thanks for reading.

Sea
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Growing #10
#150: May 23, 2021, 08:13:00 AM
Sea, I am glad that you are ok (ish).
And I remember feeling much of what you describe....less dramatic ups and downs maybe, but still a bit up and down. And that I sometimes felt a bit disheartened by that, as if I was somehow doing something wrong or not doing something right.

Tbh, now, I think that ‘no expectations’ bit can be as valid in how we judge ourselves.
Fwiw I honestly believe that there is just a process of loss and acceptance and adaptation that has a lot of layers to it for some of us. More than losing our spouses or our marriages actually. More even than about betrayal or our hurt or love or what has happened or might happen. A kind of ‘well, where am I and what do I do with that’ winnowing perhaps that takes us towards a sort of peace and acceptance. But imho it is normal (if dispiriting and tiring sometimes) and it is useful as part of getting from here to next. It just isn’t understood or acknowledged much perhaps in RL or even by ourselves. But it is necessary I suspect....
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Healing and growing found here https://littleplotbythesea.wordpress.com

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Growing #10
#151: May 25, 2021, 02:51:10 AM
Hi Sea,

It is time... Growing #11 maybe?

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Growing #10
#152: May 25, 2021, 09:35:47 AM
Yeah UM - I know...

Here's my new thread:  https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?action=post;board=1.0

Sea
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