[Returned]

After an absence of 10 years and 9 months, xH now says he is home to stay. It is hard to imagine the time that has passed, I never imagined MLC could last this long.

Bomb drop was 2011 after 25 years of marriage and two kids. I adored my husband, there were problems but nothing I thought we couldn't work on. When he told me I was incredulous. Why would someone leave a wife and two kids who adored him?

His case was the worst I have ever seen or heard of. When he left he had already replaced me with a new family complete with children and in-laws. He threw out his clothes, quit his job, destroyed his career, moved out of the country. When I would see him his expression was angry and his comments to me and to others about me were cruel. He had shark eyes. He was unrecognizable. He posted photographs with OW clinging to his leg and with her kids and in-laws, but no pictures of our kids.

Our family was shattered, my kids, S18 and S25 at that time were devastated. There had been no warning.

Throughout I insisted on seeing him every 3 to 6 months. Each time I saw him he was strange, cold, distant and had shark eyes. I never mentioned OW. I sat and listened, we talked about the kids. No eye contact. We divorced in 2013. For 7 years I did volunteer work in the country he had moved to, then I moved back to the States to make a home for the kids. The kids eventually moved in with me back in my hometown.

When the pandemic hit I quarantined with my youngest. Then a strange thing happened, my MLCer asked to come home. The first time it was only for 2 weeks, then another trip it was for 3 weeks, then 4 weeks, then 2 months. On the first trip he wouldn't look at me, he would avert his gaze. No eye contact. He still seemed strangely angry. He would receive packages for OW at my house  . I kept wondering if I should throw him out because he was still with OW, but I remembered how Mamma  Bear had let her MLCer come home, and I decided it was worth a try.

This is his sixth visit, he came home 7 weeks ago and when he got here he told me "I am here to stay". He has begun working at a job. He wants to live with us. He didn’t bring much luggage though.    He has a separate bedroom.

I can see from his expression that he is no longer in replay. Shark eyes are gone. He spends time with his kids. He is considerate in his actions. My kids are happier than they have been for years to be living with their dad.

He is no longer the same person. It is hard to crack a joke with him or get him to be light-hearted. He shuns most of his former friends. Nonetheless he is home, and for the sake of my family I am truly happy.

xH has taken GS12 to school almost every day since getting here, and he cooks frequently. I try to avoid him cooking because I feel like it stresses him out a lot. He gets very focused on whether we eat his food, and since our taste in food is quite different from his and our boys are very informal about meals and mealtimes it brings on some stress.  He tries very hard to contribute to the household, and he gets upset if things go wrong.

I am often perplexed by this new person. We were married for 27 years and our oldest child is 36. xH's face has changed a lot since he left and he wears new glasses which are very different from his old glasses. At times I find myself staring at him trying to recognize him.

He is older, more serious, and very cautious. The man I remember was impetuous compared to the one he is now. He works hard for acceptance. He is very sensitive and I have to choose carefully every word I say to avoid misinterpretation. He hears criticisms in his imagination. I often wonder if the OW was very demanding or critical.

My xH was at one time a brilliant and well-read person. After BD he in many ways seemed to have lost touch with reality, and his writing was intermittently confused and jumbled. I have piled stacks of reading material on tables, and between that and his new job I have noticed a marked difference after a few weeks in his ability to engage in reasoned conversation

He is becoming aware of his family and starting to understand our situation. Our sons have responded well, if cautiously, to his return. There is a missing decade, but they very much want him to heal and to succeed. They are deeply relieved to see their parents together.

The most concerning part: he has stated that he still has a relationship, but given no details. My best guess is that OW lives 3000 miles away. Did she send him here to get money?

We never, ever, bring up the OW. At first, I was the one who felt that the topic was off-limits. I felt that by acknowledging the OW it would give her power. Now I feel like he is used to me not mentioning her. I can't imagine that their relationship is very good if he has moved away and moved back in with me, but he is far from opening up about exactly what is going on.

I realize that this is not exactly the homecoming I imagined. But it is a homecoming nonetheless. We are a family again.

[readytofixmyselffirst]

Hello,

Thanks for the update and information.

The most concerning part: he has stated that he still has a relationship, but given no details. My best guess is that OW lives 3000 miles away. Did she send him here to get money?

Right now, you don't need to put your mind or energy towards OW. Not your relationship to worry about. However, there will have to be a time for accountability. He disrespected you and your children.  Went and played family with another woman for a decade. You can't pretend it didn't happen. No hiding it under the rug. The past ten years, it was all a dream.  That is not going to happen and trying to bury it will not help either one of you.

I advise you to read the articles by Heart's Blessing. I never have gone through this and there are no easy stages to reconciliation. However, each one is important to truly have a marriage again- not for him, but for you.

Keep posting and I do pray and hold out hope for you.

((((Ready))))

[Treasur]

Well, gosh, i’m not very often rendered speechless...but blimey.
Not sure I have anything in the way of useful advice but I hope others here who have returned MLCers will chime in.

I’m assuming from what you post that you wanted his return, even after such a long time, as you let him move in to ‘stay’? And that bc you are divorced, you are practically and financially protected regardless of whether he stays or goes again?

I suppose my only thought regarding your ‘now what do I do’ question is that it must feel rather strange to suddenly have this live in xh/roommate. That he is not a lot of what he was before....that the lines must feel a bit fuzzy. And I imagine that it is going to take some time for you to get to learn what kind of version of himself he is now and what feels like an appropriate role for him to play in your life and in family life. I’m sure it feels like one hell of an adjustment though when you have been single and doing your own thing for so long. Does he seem to expect you to behave like the old wifely you? Or to find the adjustment difficult too?

I guess the uncomfortable nub, reading between the lines, is that you’re not perhaps sure why he has done this. That he announced it more than asked? And it sounds as if he still communicates in that marvellous MLC indirect word salad way  so you’re not at all sure what is going on re ow/his old life or what his intentions are.  Or how much of it is about a relationship with you as opposed to anything else. (Which anecdotally is not uncommon, I think, but perhaps a useful reminder that most reconnected LBS would say that they do not come home magically fixed but often still a bit MLCish)

Out of interest, do you have any boundary lines in the current situation that, if crossed, would cause you to ask him to leave? And what does his presence in your life/home now make easier or more difficult with the shape of your own new life that I guess you had to build and that has a lot of new things in it? I would guess that it probably pushes you back towards needing some of those basic LBS skills....a level of detachment and boundaries and consciously reminding yourself to focus on your own needs and GAL?

Like most LBS here, I spent a couple of years hoping that my then h would return. Now some years on, I would find that unimaginably difficult tbh. Unsettling enough actually that, in my case, I’m not sure I would want that. So i’m lucky perhaps that the universe has not put me in that position lol. But I think the one thing we do learn as LBS is that life can throw you some unexpected plot twists and that there is more than one way to respond to them so it is useful to not be so quick to judge others’ choices or our own!

I do hope others with similar experiences will come along to be more useful to you than I can be.
I guess bc you posted, that suggests to me that you might feel you need some support? Are there particular things that would be useful for you right now? And, wrt to your title question, do you know what you want to do from here and why?

Wishing you and your family all the best.

[UrsaMajor]

I am another one that will need a crane to pick up my jaw off the floor.....

My first reaction is "How ..... odd."  He comes back, says he is there to stay but still has an R with the OW? MLC gobbledy-gook at its finest. If he was there to stay, OW would be out of the picture.

Stress with the family and kids is a normal part of a normal family life. Apparently he is not too resilient when it comes to stress....

Is he seeing an IC? Would he?  To my untrained ear, it sounds as if he would benefit from one, if for no other reason than to figure out what he wants and how to deal with life in general.

But that is just my 2 cents worth from row 122 in the cheap seats - and someone whose Mid-Lifer is still off in the tunnel.....

[xyzcf]

I have heard of others who after many many years show back up and it isn't an easy thing to deal with, especially if this is something the LBSer has always wanted. Some are able to express that they are ready to do the work it takes, while others are still mute, and perhaps never will talk about what happened.

I think it was dancingintherain's husband who kind of showed up this way and eventually they worked things out but it took a while.

When I read you story, I ask...who knows what is ever going through a MLCer's head? What would be the reason at this point to move back into your home? Most outsiders would not understand this (well I don't understand it either) and I guess it's rather pointless to try to figure it out.

They are perhaps still conflict avoiders, but then I am too.

I realize that this is not exactly the homecoming I imagined. But it is a homecoming nonetheless. We are a family again.

This I understand. And for this reason, I would be ok with his returning....although not sure I'd want him to live with me...I don't know.

Just like when BD hit us, we don't know what we will do or how we will respond until it happens to us.

Yeas ago a woman from my church approached me and said "keep doing what you have been doing". I had attended her 50th wedding anniversary party and this couple were very loving towards one another and then she told me this:

Her husband had left the family and been away for 18 years. She had raised two young children herself.  Although we met a few times as she was very supportive of what I was going through, she never disclosed why he left or what had happened.

So life is certainly strange and unsettling when dealing with someone who cannot express themselves to us.

Please keep us posted.

[Slow Fade]

Ah the strange workings of the MLC'r, who can know it? While there are lots and lots of commonalities there are just as many differences in what they do and how they act.

Keep reaching out and listen to what you want. Don't start walking on eggshells.

((hugs))

[Returned]

xH has been home for 2 months now, and so far all is good. No storms on the horizon, at least not yet.

As xH has settled in I have seen glimpses of his former self, and fewer appearances of his MLC self. He is becoming slightly less sensitive and not misconstruing so many things. He spends a lot of time hanging out with our sons, and he even cracks jokes sometimes which is good to see. He is telling a few stories from the years he was absent, not much, but a little bit, whereas before he was absolutely hermetic about all aspects of his life. Overall I am happy to be patient. It must be quite a shock to come back from a state of mind where he was imagining adversaries everywhere, and to realize that everyone around him is just plain relieved to have him back. I had always felt that he had somehow demonized us in his mind and this made it impossible for him to see acts of kindness.

I remember once reading here on the forum that the return of MLCers over 65 was very unlikely. It discouraged me at the time. Is he the exception? It seems like it.

[em5731]

Hi Returned.

Does he show any remorse? I have always wondered about if they come back. If mine ever did. I toss is ass right back out. But mine treated me so badly. Is he trying to reconcile or he just a mess.
I will have to read your story. I probably did years ago. Good luck to you.

[xyzcf]

It is very interesting to read how he is settling back in. Please keep posting your observations.

I remember once reading here on the forum that the return of MLCers over 65 was very unlikely. It discouraged me at the time. Is he the exception? It seems like it.

Every situation is different and no one really is an "expert" in predicting who returns....indeed what many people have written long after their spouse leaves, is that some realize that this destroyed something that was good, and they regret it. Some may want to come back but in many many cases, the LBSer has shut that door completely. Others may be quite happy in their new lives while others, although they think about returning just cannot.

It's a mystery and the best we can do is accept whatever our situation is and make decisions about what kind of contact is right for ourselves and for our family.

Thank you for sharing how things are going. As you said, you are being patient and that requires a great deal of energy.

[Evermore]

Hi Returned. As XYZ, said, thanks for sharing your observations. The return stories are all different but one thing they seem to have in common is that they are slooowww and take much patience. Sounds like you have the right attitude!

[Returned]

Well, gosh, i’m not very often rendered speechless...but blimey.
Not sure I have anything in the way of useful advice but I hope others here who have returned MLCers will chime in.

I’m assuming from what you post that you wanted his return, even after such a long time, as you let him move in to ‘stay’? And that bc you are divorced, you are practically and financially protected regardless of whether he stays or goes again?

I suppose my only thought regarding your ‘now what do I do’ question is that it must feel rather strange to suddenly have this live in xh/roommate. That he is not a lot of what he was before....that the lines must feel a bit fuzzy. And I imagine that it is going to take some time for you to get to learn what kind of version of himself he is now and what feels like an appropriate role for him to play in your life and in family life. I’m sure it feels like one hell of an adjustment though when you have been single and doing your own thing for so long. Does he seem to expect you to behave like the old wifely you? Or to find the adjustment difficult too?

I guess the uncomfortable nub, reading between the lines, is that you’re not perhaps sure why he has done this. That he announced it more than asked? And it sounds as if he still communicates in that marvellous MLC indirect word salad way  so you’re not at all sure what is going on re ow/his old life or what his intentions are.  Or how much of it is about a relationship with you as opposed to anything else. (Which anecdotally is not uncommon, I think, but perhaps a useful reminder that most reconnected LBS would say that they do not come home magically fixed but often still a bit MLCish)

Out of interest, do you have any boundary lines in the current situation that, if crossed, would cause you to ask him to leave? And what does his presence in your life/home now make easier or more difficult with the shape of your own new life that I guess you had to build and that has a lot of new things in it? I would guess that it probably pushes you back towards needing some of those basic LBS skills....a level of detachment and boundaries and consciously reminding yourself to focus on your own needs and GAL?


I guess bc you posted, that suggests to me that you might feel you need some support? Are there particular things that would be useful for you right now? And, wrt to your title question, do you know what you want to do from here and why?

Wishing you and your family all the best.

Treasur I want to take some time to answer you. I didn't answer immediately because your questions required a great deal of thought, and I have been thinking about them

As for whether I wanted his return, I would say that not wanting his return would be both rational and logical. I think any therapist in her right mind would have urged me to move on. That is to say from a justice viewpoint what happened was very unjust and in some ways very cruel, and it is easy to make an argument for not allowing him to return.

However one thing I learned in his absence was that it wasn't that simple. I had built my life around my family, and my xH was the centerpiece of my family. When he left the boys both spiraled downward. After floundering around for a while it became clear to me that if I did not somehow find a way to rebuild the boys would be forever embittered. I realize that this is not true for everyone, some people very successfully build blended families with new partners. But that is other people, and it would be extremely difficult for me to find someone my boys would accept, and who would accept my boys. I myself was dragged into the separation against my will, I have never felt attraction for another man, either before or after the divorce. Which isn't to say someone might not be out there, but just that I had never met that person.

I don't mind taking a traditional role, it is part of the package when you marry men from certain countries. That is to say my husband comes from a country where women cook and housekeep etc. I am not terribly fond of these things, but I think he needs them in order to understand that he is wanted. If I were not to do them it would send an unspoken message that he is not wanted, and that is not what I want him to understand. It does however raise the issue of cake eating, however again I have suspended all claims for social justice at this time in the interest of the emotional health of my family.

As for boundary lines I do have them. The OW is 3000 miles away so at this point I can indefinitely postpone ultimatums. I think that posing ultimatums would be counterproductive for him gaining insight into what he has done. However if I were to perceive he was siphoning resources from my children to the OW that would most definitely be a dealbreaker. Also any attempt to bring the OW to my home or have her interact with my children would be not acceptable (although they have met her in the past). I would of course feel much better if he did not communicate with her, however I keep reminding myself over and over that we are divorced and not in a physical or emotional relationship so I really don't have any rights in this regard. As a man who has been divorced for more than 8 years he can obviously speak to whomever he pleases.

You are right that the most agonizing part is figuring out his intentions. My xH has always had difficulty with sharing his intentions, and this became even worse after BD.  Based on the cruelty of the things he said at the time it would be easy to imagine many terrible things. However the reality after 10 years is that the only terrible things he did to me were his absence, some very unkind and inaccurate comments about me to me and to others, and prancing around in public with the OW in a way that was very humiliating for me. Our divorce was uncomplicated (you keep what you have, I keep what I have). I am not making excuses but at least so far he has not left me homeless or tried to move the OW into my home or made financial demands as has happened with other LBS's. So it is easy for me to imagine terrible intentions, but it remains to be seen what his intentions really are. Worst case scenario would be him trying to use us financially to bring the OW to the United States. I am hoping that is not the case, but since this is conjecture I will wait to cross that bridge when I get there. 

What is really helpful from the group is advice on how to cope with some residual MLC behaviors. As he has stayed here longer some of these behaviors are improving. There is more eye contact. I am working to get him to understand that comments are not criticisms. Part of coping every day is being prudent but not speculating.

[xyzcf]

Returned, I do not think many people can really understand why after all this time, you would "accept" him back into your home and life.

I just spent a lovely afternoon with Mr. xyzcf....and I could say a great deal more...the reality is he has a whole life outside of me that I am not a part of.......that I don't want to know about.

After he left, because I often struggle with why do I allow this.....with absolute clarity the answer always is the same...because I love him.

Love is a very complicated thing. It's not "rational", it's not intellectual or logical.

I do "talk" that I want us to be able to have  "family" time with our daughter, that is very very important to me....but...
sitting on the couch, talking, having a glass of wine, his offer to pick me up tomorrow after I drop my car off, his kiss.....


all the rules, all the boundaries, all the "he doesn't deserve any of this"......in my being is dismissed because of this one thing....I love this man.

I also wanted to say I understand this as well:

I keep reminding myself over and over that we are divorced and not in a physical or emotional relationship so I really don't have any rights in this regard. As a man who has been divorced for more than 8 years he can obviously speak to whomever he pleases.

I read something recently that said something about how he's allowed to live his life the way he wants. Now that is not what I understood marriage to be, and I don't think he did either for many many years...but this seems to be what he wants now.

I don't know, it certainly is confusing that they still want something to do with us and our families.

[Returned]

Hi Returned.

Does he show any remorse? I have always wondered about if they come back. If mine ever did. I toss is ass right back out. But mine treated me so badly. Is he trying to reconcile or he just a mess.
I will have to read your story. I probably did years ago. Good luck to you.

EM5731 He is very attentive and considerate, but he has not as of yet expressed any remorse. However, he has made great progress in his ability to relate to me. For years he had converted me into some sort of evil archetype which bore no relationship at all to reality. He imagined things about me and he told things to others about me that were both fantastical and implausible. Even the kindest words spoken by me were misinterpreted into a negative light. I can tell from his gaze that he now has the ability to see us. One would think that now that he is somewhat in touch with reality he would realize that he committed an injustice. However, that may be a step ahead of where we are at this moment. The first step is for him to realize that his assessment was wrong, only then can he realize that what he put us through was unjust.

[barbiedoll]

Even the kindest words spoken by me were misinterpreted into a negative light.

He hears criticisms in his imagination

.

Hello Returned .  What a story and journey you have been on. I too am just flabbergasted by it all and the length of time he was gone.  Just proof that we have no idea what the future hold. 

Yes. My H will very often interpret everything and spin it to a negative.  He told the marriage counsellor that everything I say, he interprets as a negative. This was especially true after BD when i was trying to talk to him and make sense of the entire mess. I think ( in my H's case ) he heard "negative" to justify having an affair . Rather like " well, I have a nasty mean wife...no wonder I am having an affair .  I also believe my H has a shame based identity..hard to get anything but negative from that core space. He does not like himself very much at all and its hard for him to hear positive in regard to himself.  He "beats himself up" internally and boarders on self loathing ...so negative is his "norm" and his work to do to try to change that. He is working with his therapist on a book about self compassion etc.    My H is very avoidant . So he never ever told me that he feels everything as a negative. He was silent. I had no idea how he was hearing what I was saying until it came up in therapy .

He also has an extreme sensitivity to perceived criticism.  I have spent more time saying " this is NOT meant as any kind of criticism ...but I need to say how I feel" .   Its exhausting honestly.  EVERYTHING is a criticism to him.  He hears thru a filter or a "wound" of childhood trauma that has followed him into adulthood. But the worst of it ( to me ) is he would not say anything.  I had no idea until it came up in therapy .  I could not change what I had no idea was even happening.   All hard work with these complex wounded men .

[Returned]

Even the kindest words spoken by me were misinterpreted into a negative light.

He hears criticisms in his imagination

.

Yes. My H will very often interpret everything and spin it to a negative. This was especially true after BD when i was trying to talk to him and make sense of the entire mess. I think ( in my H's case ) he heard "negative"

He also has an extreme sensitivity to perceived criticism.  I have spent more time saying " this is NOT meant as any kind of criticism ...but I need to say how I feel" .   EVERYTHING is a criticism to him.

At the the time of bomb drop back in 2011 I was worried he was having auditory hallucinations. He kept responding angrily to criticisms which I never said. In several cases I hadn’t even spoken. He is slightly better now but I still have to choose my words very very carefully.

 For example I am quite forgetful and I misplace my keys. But I can’t say I am looking for my keys because instead of offering to help he will answer  “I didn’t take them.” I also can’t mention when we are out of any food item because he will answer “I didn’t eat it” or “ I will get it today” as if I had demanded that. So it is hard to talk about mundane things because he perceives comments as either a demand or a criticism.

If anyone has ideas as to how to phrase things so as not to trigger that sort of response It would be great.

[UrsaMajor]

If anyone has ideas as to how to phrase things so as not to trigger that sort of response It would be great.

To be brutally honest - there is absolutely NOTHING that you can do and no way you can phrase anything that it won't trigger him. Why? Because it is HIS trigger and his thing to work out/work through. You can not spend your life wondering if whatever you say is going to be taken wrong or not. I mean, for those people, telling them "Good Morning" and asking how they slept can be seen as an attack/accusation. It is like you ask how did they sleep and they hear that they were tossing and turning and keeping you awake.... which is NOT what you said at all... but that is, for some reason, what they hear..... and there is nothing that you can do about it.  You can only be responsible for what you say, not what they hear.

[titleholder]

It's crazy how these people are so much alike. Appartently my stbxH has had this sort of thought proces his whole life (I knew this a little bit but never in a million years would have expected it to be this 'bad') and I think that MLC makes their way of thinking 10000 times worse. Reality is gone, gone gone.

I concur with UrsaMajor it's their responsibility and their growing proces, not ours. So don't let yourself get sucked in his weird way of thinking. It seems to be that your H still has a long way to go before really exiting the tunnel.

I hope some of the vets can help you with this. I'm still a newbie myself :-)

[MomOfSteel]

It must be frustrating to not even be able to say benign things without him taking offense.  It would feel to me like the period of time right before my H left where everything set him off.  I’m not sure what to do about it, maybe talking to a good therapist who can help with communication?  The problem is it really is his issue and you aren’t doing anything wrong.  It sounds like he’s very defensive and I’m wondering if that’s his guilt coming out.  He knows he messed up, from the cheap seats, maybe he’s still trying to push those feelings of guilt down because he doesn’t want to deal with them. 

[Treasur]

If anyone has ideas as to how to phrase things so as not to trigger that sort of response It would be great.

Your question seems to imply two things....firstly that you believe that what you say (or how you say it) can influence his reactions and secondly that there is something about how he reacts that is uncomfortable for you bc you are looking for advice on how to change it?

So, let’s take those as separate items so you can unpick them for yourself a bit.

Do you believe that you are responsible in any way for his reactions? If so, what is the evidence for that?
Do you believe that saying less/more/different has a significant effect on his reactions? If so, what is the evidence for that?
And, given his physical return, have you found that you now have some different expectations of how he should or shouldn't behave? That wouldn’t be uncommon or unreasonable, of course, but it might not ‘fit’ how things actually are right now. When you are looking for your keys, for example, is there some small bit of you that wants him to be helpful or get involved in looking for them? (As he was gone for so long, i’m assuming you had some system for finding your keys before which didn’t involve him.)

And how uncomfortable is this for you? Your post had imho a hint of eggshells to it....a sense of if I can only do x the ‘right’ way then he won’t do y? Are you afraid of y happening, whatever that is? Or are you ttrying to fix something bc you don’t much like it? Why does it matter to you that he says these things? Really, why? (And you don’t need to share your honest reflections here, just to take time to consider it for yourself)

And there are no ‘right’ answers to any of these questions, just honest ones for you.
I have never been in your situation but, as others have shared here, it is not an easy one and probably requires  that kind of honesty about what is really going on for you to create an approach to it that works for you.
I can think of several different approaches depending on what sits comfortably for the kind of person you are.

But all of them probably rest on being a bit more detached from the significance of how he reacts. On not picking up someone else’s monkeys, just your own.

And a good ‘solution’ probably rests on understanding what the nature of the ‘problem’ is from your POV....and i’m not sure I fully understand that from what you posted?

[MadLuv]

  For example I am quite forgetful and I misplace my keys. But I can’t say I am looking for my keys because instead of offering to help he will answer  “I didn’t take them.” I also can’t mention when we are out of any food item because he will answer “I didn’t eat it” or “ I will get it today” as if I had demanded that. So it is hard to talk about mundane things because he perceives comments as either a demand or a criticism.
If anyone has ideas as to how to phrase things so as not to trigger that sort of response It would be great

This was happening in my home as well. Right before BD I couldn’t ask where something I was looking for was without him having a total breakdown. I know I got to a point where I found myself saying, “ I can’t figure out where I put the tape measure “ I started turning everything on me to avoid the breakdowns. Then he would say, that was probably me. Let me look. Where if I said, do you know where the tape measure is? He would start literally crying. I’m so stupid. You have a place for it and I didn’t put it there ( there was a tape measure holder right on the door to the garage) I would then have a 20 minute conversation about how it was ‘t a big deal. I put things down all the time wherever……. The low self esteem and self hatred was the worst!!!

[forthetrees]

When MLCer left I designated a set place for the car keys since I would not have anyone else to help look for them- so, commit to always putting them in the same place.

As for the bigger issue, I recommend the website by Marshall Rosenberg for Non-Violent Communication. He boils communication down to the question of what is the intention of the speaker. If you and your husband can both read about this, AND he can train himself to always ask about the intention of your communication BEFORE responding, it will help. Right now he is reacting instead of responding and that does not lead to productive outcomes.

[xyzcf]

I am wondering if we are expecting normal behavior and responses such as being able to engage in a conversation with the MLCer and that they would have some sort of awareness of how their actions/responses affect us? This got me thinking about depression, ( because we have often stated that depression is a big part of the crisis) and so I did a search on "how depression affects the brain".

"There's growing evidence that several parts of the brain shrink in people with depression. Specifically, these areas lose gray matter volume (GMV). That's tissue with a lot of brain cells. GMV loss seems to be higher in people who have regular or ongoing depression with serious symptoms"

"A depression not only makes a person feel sad and dejected – it can also damage the brain permanently, so the person has difficulties remembering and concentrating once the disease is over. Up to 20 percent of depression patients never make a full recovery."

"Results of several MRI scan studies have demonstrated people with depression had a hippocampus volume that was up to 10% lower than people without depression."

When looked at from a physiological effect of depression, are we asking too much to think that they will be able to interact with us in a compassionate and empathetic manner? All these things that we want them to be able to do...just might not be possible.

Is it something like paranoia? I remember Mr xyzcf years ago being at my home when I had a church function here and afterward he said to me "I can read a room full of people really well and those people did not like me"...my perception was very different. The people were friendly, chatted with him and I saw no evidence that they "didn't like him".

We want and have heard of MLCers who come through the tunnel, who return to somewhat of who they once were. Some "return" in a different way...physically they are here but that doesn't mean that emotionally they are capable of meeting any of our needs...even minimally.

My friends ask me all the time why I don't "ask" Mr xyzcf what he wants since he does spend time with me and we do certain things as a family......I truly don't see that it would do any good to ask him anything significant.

And that is why I am thinking, what kind of physiological damage has been done over the years to their brains? Can we ever expect them to engage in a real relationship with us if those parts of the brain have been damaged?

Just my thinking.

I do agree that as hard as it may be, step back and continue to build your own life. It doesn't sound like he's able to or trying to work with you to mend and grow the relationship..but perhaps with time he will feel safe enough or comfortable enough....but as others have said, there is really nothing you can do.

[MadLuv]

A depression not only makes a person feel sad and dejected – it can also damage the brain permanently, so the person has difficulties remembering and concentrating once the disease is over. Up to 20 percent of depression patients never make a full recovery."

I agree with this!! I also agree with your remembrance of how a room of people was perceived. I do feel my XH who has been fighting depression for more than a decade see’s the negative in everything. It really is so sad. It is from this understanding that I still have empathy 

[Returned]

Wow, its great to get so much feedback. Let me see where I can start.

Xyzcf I want you to know that when I read your notes I always value them. Among the crowd you and I are actually the closest both in timeline, in situation, and in attitude. We are both “for better or for worse” LBS, who have been at this for a very very long time so I know you understand how perplexed I am. Yes there are commonalities, and among them is his tendency to perceive enemies where there aren’t any, like the “didn’t like him” comment.

I think just the fact that we are living in the same house, and he is trying his hardest to contribute in a positive way is a huge step forward. I borrowed this attitude from Mamma Bear, the open the door and make no demands approach, and at least so far it hasn’t disappointed me.

Madluv your “I can’t figure out where I left the tape measure” technique is actually a very helpful suggestion. I am very clear that at age 67 xH I am not going to be able to fix or change the way he perceives the world, because this really has nothing to do with me.

Forthetrees our situation is that we are living together as “roommates” but he has not indicated any desire to restore the relationship yet, so things like counseling are not an option. He is also not introspective at all, and so asking him to understand my intention and things like that are really very far beyond his repertoire of possibilities. If I were to make such a request he would feel totally attacked, and it would also cause him great anxiety, because he would likely totally misinterpret my intentions and my request for him to read something would likely be interpreted as a criticism or demand as well.

Treasur I totally get the “not my monkeys” train of thought. However I am basing my decisions on a couple of premises. One premise I have is that his tendency to imagine criticisms or demands may likely never change. This is just who he is at this age. So if we are going to live together it is in our best interest for me to figure out some way of not triggering it. You were right on several of your initial assessments. He did announce he was there to stay, rather than ask permission to stay. Hard to say if it was because of machismo or just because I had always told him "this is your house and your family." Clearly that is a slight exaggeration as to the house, now that we are divorced the house is mine, but I was speaking figuratively and trying to break through his extreme "starting my life over again" fantasy by pointing out that we are still here and we haven't disappeared.

I don’t think of it as walking on eggshells. I am not tiptoeing around the house worrying he is going to get angry.  He has done his best to be pleasant and helpful, sometimes to the extreme. I just feel like our interactions will be happier if I can somehow figure out a way for him to understand my intentions, and to understand that no one is criticizing him.

MomofSteel I can’t really afford therapy right now, both from money and time constraints. I work about 60 hours a week. Besides I think any therapist would think I am crazy to have him back. No sense in paying someone to argue with me.  As for him, I am sure therapy would be beneficial for him to think things through, but any attempt by me to suggest it would be interpreted as a personal attack. So definitely not on the table at this time.

Titleholder for the last month he is way more in touch with reality than he has been for at least 12 years. 1000% improved, way beyond expectations. If I set the bar higher I think it wouldn’t be reasonable.

Ursamajor I agree in theory that I am only responsible for what I say and not what he hears. However I think at his age asking him to rework his thinking may not be a winning proposition. He has made great progress in the last few weeks, but from a practical viewpoint I think it is safer to assume he will not change, and just try to deal with where we are now without trying to change him

[Treasur]

just try to deal with where we are now without trying to change him

I get that. And I think it is important here on HS to respect the choices other LBS make and have a little humility about all the things we do not know and the ways in which situations differ.

Having said that, sometimes one can see something from the cheap seats worth offering up for another LBS to consider. Or discard lol. Either is fine  What strikes me is that there is a kind of logic hiccup? You say as above that you are not trying to change him.....and you are also trying to change his reactions or feelings to what you think you do (and could change) that triggers him....which is of course trying to change him in some way. Do you see what I mean? So, without any judgement at all about your choices, that just seems a bit apples and pears. And logic hiccups tend to imho make life a bit more confusing sometimes. So my best take is that you pause to reflect a little longer on where you stand on the accept vs change spectrum and what you find uncomfortable about how it is right now? Why it really matters to you and what you can honestly influence perhaps? Bc doing nothing much is also a valid choice sometimes? And things change and evolve in ways we don’t always assume, don’t they? Ha ha, I think that is one of the big LBS life lessons, isn’t it, that things don’t always end up going the way we thought they would 

Important too probably to remind yourself that both of you are in a slightly strange situation right now and that there is bound to be some process of adjustment, and trial and error, for all of your family in figuring out some kind of ‘new normal’. Hopefully others who have been in similar shoes, if perhaps different timelines, will come along to share their hints and tips. Wishing you all the best.

[titleholder]

Titleholder for the last month he is way more in touch with reality than he has been for at least 12 years. 1000% improved, way beyond expectations. If I set the bar higher I think it wouldn’t be reasonable.

You know best! Just make sure you take good care of yourself and your boundaries. I wish you all the best and I hope your H keeps improving

[forthetrees]

It saddens me that you accept that he is unable to learn new communication skills. There is a space in which learning a new skill will lead to change and, for me, that kind of change is an acceptable expectation. If what got you to this place in your relationship was related to an incomplete communication toolbox, then it´s worth searching out new tools for both of you. Yes, if you know a trigger it´s worth not deliberately triggering him but at the same time is it realistic for you to be the one testing for triggers? If his triggers are a minefield, do you want to be the one to walk through the field tapping each mine (conversation) to see if he blows up or not? That does not seem like a peaceful healthy way to exist. 

[Akkie1973]

Is it something like paranoia? I remember Mr xyzcf years ago being at my home when I had a church function here and afterward he said to me "I can read a room full of people really well and those people did not like me"...my perception was very different. The people were friendly, chatted with him and I saw no evidence that they "didn't like him".

Oh wow.... You described my H here. He also thought that people didn't like him. And just like you I ha a different perception. :-0

[Finding Joy]

It’s him coming back still in a relationship that gets me.  That says it all after ten years…

You deserve respect.

[Returned]

As he has stayed here longer he has gradually become less defensive and more relaxed. He works very hard at his new job. He appears genuinely happy to be with the kids. He constantly tries to be helpful with me and some of our conversations are almost pre-BD. He is more in touch with reality. However, I am also increasingly aware that this crisis is not just about our relationship. He has shunned/rejected/avoided almost all his friends. Last night I was bringing up the names of his lifelong friends who live nearby and suggested he get in touch with them. As I mentioned each one he dismissed them, and for some of the names I mentioned he appeared visibly upset. He says that they are avoiding him. There may be a grain of truth in this. Some of his replay behaviors were pretty appalling, as well as the things he was saying and the crowd he was hanging with. I don't doubt that people might be avoiding him. However I also think there is an element of him rejecting them, and I worry about him isolating himself because I think that makes him more susceptible to extreme views and manipulation by the OW. My impression is that he has kept his return home a secret, and that of course is a worrisome sign. It has crossed my mind that he might be embarrassed that he has returned home after saying so many terrible things about me and parading the OW around, and that is why he is avoiding his friends, including the friends he is still close with. Being embarrassed has always been a thing with him.

[Returned]

My two sons, S36 and S27, who have been unrelentingly grumpy the last decade,  have been in party mode ever since their dad got home. I get a feeling their Dad is having some culture shock right now about his return to the States, but my two boys are in the backyard listening to music, swimming, and blissfully happy. Hope I can somehow hold it together for them.

[in it]

Hi Returned,

My view probably isn't the most popular here, however there are some things you might want to think about.

I understand we want our children happy. However you need to consider the emotional cost to you.
Do both of your son's live with you?

Also he has a new job. Is he contibuting financially at all? If not he needs too.

This whole thing has my radar up.

He's still involved with the OW and now he's living in your house. Don't let your compassion or understanding be your undoing. He still has zero respect for you. You need to maintain some for yourself.

If the kids don't know he's still involved with her at some level you might want to cue them in at some point.

You aren't being fair to yourself to try to hold it together because of the kids and he still continues to do whatever he wants too. Don't reward bad behavior.

Make sure you have nothing physically to do with him, no matter what he says you have no idea who he's been with.
He needs full testing from a Dr and you need to see results of those tests. Do not risk your health at any level for this wayward person.

 Ten years is a long time to be gone then just show up.

[Returned]

My sons do both live with me as well as my grandson. Kind of unusual but the oldest recently broke up with long term girlfriend, and youngest has never been in a serious relationship for reasons unknown, maybe just introversion. The boys have always been buddies and enjoyed each others company.  As for xH he does contribute part of his salary and a lot of housework. I have decided to suspend thoughts about OW as she is 3000 miles away. As long as my sons are deliriously happy this is good enough for me.

[xyzcf]

Several years ago, we used to talk about how the MLCer's "pattern" for return was they started with reconnecting to some friends and family, then their kids and pets and that the last person was to the LBSer. This was of course anecdotal as much is with MLC but it did seem to happen in a sequence.

I am with you regarding including my husband  in family events, even though our daughter is 38 years old, even adult children still wish to have a relationship with their parents. For many reasons, it is good when the 4 of us spend time together (she and her husband with both of us).

She and I occasionally talk about "him" and she is well aware that he is strange and not the dad she knew all her life. Well, we know that to be true in someone who is experiencing a MLC.

The idea that we absolutely must shut out the MLCer completely from our lives unless they are ready to meet all our needs/wants/and feel remorse and apologize for everything is unrealistic...who says this is so?

If we have healed, we did that without their assistance and we can make the choice that it is ok for them to be with us and our families. It's really a matter of personal choice.

The number of years before returning is insignificant.

Boundaries are something that we create for our own emotional health and safety. I will admit that an OW turns my stomach but in what you are explaining

"As he has stayed here longer he has gradually become less defensive and more relaxed. He works very hard at his new job. He appears genuinely happy to be with the kids. He constantly tries to be helpful with me and some of our conversations are almost pre-BD. "

None of us know what will happen with them as time passes. You are protecting your heart by not focusing on the OW and by enjoying the happiness of your sons.

We don't get to judge what you are doing for your family because each of us are also on our own journey and each of those are different.

Perhaps people write about their stories here for some support from others. I know other "old timers" who have contact with their spouse but have not entered into a relationship together. I also know other "old timers" who even though they are happy in their new relationships, would like to be able to have a civil relationship with their ex, especially when it comes to their adult children.

So, enjoy this time. It is very interesting to read your observations about is behaviours.

[Returned]

The idea that we absolutely must shut out the MLCer completely from our lives unless they are ready to meet all our needs/wants/and feel remorse and apologize for everything is unrealistic...who says this is so?

I think there are several key things here that people who are not old timers may have a hard time understanding.

I guess the first thing is that we have we have been divorced by mutual consent for 9 years. So I really have no claim to fidelity or anything else at this stage. Admittedly there is a lot to be desired about his behavior 9 years ago as a spouse and as a father. But right now he is not doing any of those horrendous replay behaviors. Should I be bitter or bear a grudge? I suppose I would be fully within my rights to be bitter and bear a grudge, but what good would it do me or my children?

Second is that his recent behavior is nothing to complain about. He has been considerate, respectful, and supportive. He also has been honest. Admittedly not affectionate, but four out of five isn't bad.

Third I am faced with some stark choices. xH destroyed his career, has been unemployed for a long time, and  is not capable of economic self sufficiency, at least not yet. We live in a very expensive city. So my choice is to let him live with me and work, or kick him out and send him back to his country and OW. That simple. I think someone outside the situation could easily say "he gets what he deserves". However Iiving with us is not only what is best for him, it is also what is best for me and my children. My children not only get their father back, they get to see lessons in forgiveness, commitment, and caring.

My guess is that my husband is not affectionate because he has not made a final decision. The lifelong consequences of publicly returning to his family in the US would be huge. His country is a small country where everyone knows each other. The OW has powerful connections in his home country and a public breakup with her would have far-reaching consequences, some of which he may not be prepared to deal with. Since he threw most of our mutual friends overboard in the years after bomb drop, he made new friends in OW social circle, many of whom he respects. OW social circle would likely shun him if he officially returned to his family. He would end up completely alone except for me and the kids.

Of course, once he is back on his feet, there is no guarantee what will happen. I know that. He is not returning with a certification that MLC is over. He might go tearing off with some woman he meets at work. It's possible.

If I see any replay behaviors I always have the option of saying that's it. However, I certainly hope that doesn't happen for everyone's sake.

[in it]

Returned, sounds like everyone is calm happy and peaceful. Sounds good. 

[Curiosity]

Returned, this is exactly why - even though we all may benefit from reading each other’s stories and even though there may be some similarities - we always have to make our decisions based on the individual nuances of our own situations. Xyzcf is really good about emphasizing this, I think.

Despite the differences between your situation and mine, the piece of common ground that applies to all of us is that what’s right or okay or acceptable or even beneficial for each of us all comes down to where we can place boundaries that genuinely serve our well-being. For some people, that may be no contact unless or until the MLCer has truly shown behavior suggesting that they have worked through the issues that led to crisis. For some, they can truly achieve loving detachment in such a way that they are able to spend family time with the MLCer, and maybe even hold onto the underlying friendship that was part of the relationship before MLC. And sometimes they make that choice because they still see glimpses of the loving relationship that was; sometimes the reasons for spending time with the MLCer are more about practicalities. Whatever the reason… if you can spend time with him in whatever capacity, and appreciate and accept it for what it is, then I think it’s something for which to be thankful. And it certainly seems like that is the case. Talking about it here is often a good way to process your own emotions around it and ensure that you still feel like you are in a healthy place. But I agree with xyzcf that nobody has the right to judge or second guess your decisions around your life and family. I wish you well and I appreciate that you are sharing your story.

[Returned]

As we near the three month mark of my xH coming home I have many thoughts. We were married for almost 27 years so I already know the full spectrum of his behaviors, and within his range of behavior he has been remarkably agreeable since he got home. He occasionally misinterprets things but by and large he has done what he can to be helpful. His new job is grueling, he has to work a lot of graveyard shifts, but since he was out of the workforce for a long time this is probably as good as he can get right now.

What I have noticed is something that i have heard other LBS mention in the past, the problem of triggers. There are moments when something reminds me of a particularly horrible part of BD. For example he sometimes converses casually with the in-laws by phone while I am in the room. These are people who were my dear friends before BD, and who cut all ties with both me and our children after bomb drop. To date they have not wished my children a happy birthday or a merry christmas in the last 10 years. How does one forgive something like this? I am baffled and confused. Even if it looks like there is hope for a return to sanity on the part of xH what do I do with my anger over the way my children were discarded by the in-laws? Luckily it seems as if my boys haven't noticed, although it is hard to tell if they are just being brave.

[readytofixmyselffirst]

Hello,

My view probably isn't the most popular here, however there are some things you might want to think about.

I disagree. Your post was valid and made many salient points. In fact, we need a variety of points and perspectives because not one situation here fits a particular mold or works for the LBSer.

I am with you regarding including my husband  in family events, even though our daughter is 38 years old, even adult children still wish to have a relationship with their parents. For many reasons, it is good when the 4 of us spend time together (she and her husband with both of us).

Case in point, Xyzxf does this for the benefit of her child because it helps with her daughter's mental and social well-being. I am happy that she does. In my situation, neither daughter wants to be around us as a "family". They prefer to be with us one on one without the other parent present. They can't stand "family" functions. Because of this, I don't arrange or try to make "family" events with them and their mother. Once again, this is for them and what they prefer.

The point is there is not one set formula or one way to break the MLCer code. If we had it, we would have shared it a long tine ago. In regards to your post, I always look at mindset. You posted to help and as long as you post with that mindset, your words and point of view are always welcomed here.

These are people who were my dear friends before BD, and who cut all ties with both me and our children after bomb drop. To date they have not wished my children a happy birthday or a merry christmas in the last 10 years. How does one forgive something like this? I am baffled and confused.

Forgiveness is a choice and you don't have to forgive then. After all, they have not even tried to return and they made a choice to cut you out of their lives. To date, I have not forgiven my spouse. What I advise is to keep very dim or dark in regards to them. Flip the switch. Let's say they came back on their own and apologized for their behavior and your ex was still off with OW. They asked to be a part of your life and your children's lives as well. You could still accept them back while your H was out of the picture. Now, it's you h back in the picture and the inlaws are not your concern. If you can push OW out of your mind, push them out as well.

Have a great day and keep posting,

((((Ready))))

[Returned]

Last year on my birthday xH had been staying at my home for several weeks on one of his many exploratory visits. I cried when we got to 7 pm and he hadn’t wished me a happy birthday yet. This year he messaged me from work at 2 am to be the first person to wish me a happy birthday. I realize this is small stuff but it is nice to see him take small steps towards transforming into a person who cares about his family.

[xyzcf]

Happy birthday Returned!

These are the types of changes that can be seen that help us to see that things are different.

Thanks again for documenting what you are observing.

[readytofixmyselffirst]

Hello,

Happy Birthday!

((((Ready))))

[Songanddance]

To date they have not wished my children a happy birthday or a merry christmas in the last 10 years. How does one forgive something like this? I am baffled and confused. Even if it looks like there is hope for a return to sanity on the part of xH what do I do with my anger over the way my children were discarded by the in-laws?

You can't change their behaviour - you can just choose to let them go.   That said - there is still a part of me that would want to have my say with the in- laws about their behaviour towards the grand-children - the momma bear response.  I actually think though that this is something that you need to take up with H. They reacted based upon his behaviour and there was no justification for it.  It is something that he needs to address with his parents - he needs to make it clear to them that to punish the children for something he did was out of order.

It is his problem in the end and not yours.  If I were you and I felt the time were right - I would gently but firmly let H know how his parents treated his children for his actions and that it is something that really could be dealt with and perhaps sooner rather than later.  Happy Birthday!

[FaithWalker]

Happy Birthday!

[Returned]

It is now three months since xH came home. He has settled in to a routine with the kids and his work. He tries to be helpful, although at times it seems not all his efforts work out. The defensiveness is gone now. His job is really grueling and he is often a bit sleep deprived. I have noticed that he has been very cautious and reclusive.  The personality change is really quite striking.

He has only visited two of his old friends. I have run into some old friends of his and when I mention he is home I have noticed they give me a funny look, like they are not eager to get in touch with him. I am not sure how to interpret their lack of enthusiasm. Is it because he burned bridges with them too? Is it because of the terrible things he said about me when he left? Do they feel like they know things I don't know and it makes them uncomfortable? He made such a big deal when he left about how he was starting a new life, and he claimed that I was pursuing him, so it must be a pretty large contradiction for them to see him show up at my house. Is it that they think I should not let him come back?

It would be reasonable to say it is none of my business, however it does make it difficult to have a normal social life if people are avoiding him.

I guess the key thing here is the question of loyalty. I have not given up on him even though he has done many things which I consider tragic. I do not want his friends to shun him because that makes his return even more difficult.

[Ready2Transform]

I guess the key thing here is the question of loyalty. I have not given up on him even though he has done many things which I consider tragic. I do not want his friends to shun him because that makes his return even more difficult.

As much as you'd like the cooperation of these people to make the transition easier, there are consequences to MLC. These people may never come back into your lives. They may think differently of you, of him, of the whole situation. That may not be a loss; maybe real friends would have been there for you all along, and not believed any ridiculousness he was spewing. But there is freedom in not having to control how everyone behaves or perceives the situation. What is meant to work out will.

[MadLuv]

Most people will tell you not to let a cheating spouse back. So, I can see where old friends would be weary of his return for you, but also maybe he lost some respect from them as well that he has to earn back. This is why many don’t return. I have shared my story with my friends, but also with a empathetic view. If ever he was to come back And I allowed it I dont think anyone would be surprised, but still weary. It’s your life and your family. They can accept it or not. To me if the friendships are worth having they will accept your relationship again. Your to busy working on your marriage now. If he stays around they will probably come back around as well

[MomOfSteel]

They are probably just aren’t sure how to react.  I’m guessing if I ever accepted H back there would be a lot of people with opinions on the matter.  It’s easy for people to sit there and say they would never accept their spouse again after infidelity.  The problem is you don’t really know until it happens.  I feel like I always said I had that line, turns out I was willing to forgive it.  That door has possibly, likely closed for me but I would have at first and let’s face it, it doesn’t matter because I don’t know what I would do until he tried.  Follow your own instincts and trust yourself to know what is best for you. 

[Returned]

Long conversation with xH today over coffee . It is reassuring to note that he has been reading and catching up on the world. Previous to BD my xH was very intellectual, and one of my greatest pleasures, when we were married, was having meandering conversations with him about current events. Today when we talked it was pleasant enough, although it did bring out some observations. The first observation is that in his absence he has become less analytical, and although he does not do it as often now as he did when he first came home to visit, he occasionally dips into a political diatribe. When he starts a diatribe he uses the content, phrasing and style of speech of the alienator . Hearing him channel the alienator while he is speaking to me is disconcerting, to say the least.  I had noticed something similar about 8 years ago at a previous meeting where my xH repetitively used feminine hand gestures for emphasis which were obviously and hilariously borrowed from the alienator. Luckily they did not stick. Nowadays, when xH lapses into alienator-speak it reminds me that the road back to normal is in no way assured

[Returned]

The second thing I noted was how isolated he is. Over ten years ago when xH first abandoned us and moved back to his country of origin, he bonded tightly with a circle of friends. Some of them were people he had known for some time, and some of them were the alienator's friends and relatives.  I remember how giddy and euphoric he was about his new life and his new social circle who he considered "very important people". I was banished, and he did the best he could to hide our children, only taking pictures of himself with the alienator, and her children. Even though I spoke with him every few months, he was worried about being seen in public with me, and when we met for lunch he would scan crowds and doorways as we spoke. Afterward, he had momentary successes but he also had a series of setbacks, perhaps in some cases due to his behavior, but also in part due to historical events beyond his control. He was unemployed for years while he lived with the alienator and her family. Now as I speak to him and asked one by one about what happened to these friends,  I realize that he hasn't spoken to most of them in years. Eventually, he fell out with them and distanced himself. They were fair-weather friends, and once they saw he was no longer as successful as they initially believed they slipped away. More and more I understand that he came back home to us because we are all that he has left. His fantasy of a new life evaporated.

Although he told me when he arrived three months ago that he is "home to stay", he now describes his current job as an "experiment".  While this description is understandable, after all the job he has is a grueling graveyard shift and not exactly what he is best suited for, it also causes me some worry. Is our family also an "experiment"? He still does not publish photographs of himself with the children.

Sometimes I feel like he is not entirely out of replay. He rambles on about fantasies of going someplace else and starting over. Jobs in the countries he mentions would never hire someone of his age, and the type of work he describes no longer exists. I feel sad for him, and also for us, as we have suffered greatly from his intoxication with his "starting over" fantasy. I can see that "starting over" is a powerfully addictive drug for him, and he has a hard time resisting its allure.

My sons are as happy as I have seen them in the last 12 years. I can tell that they are greatly reassured to see their parents living together as we enter old age, even though it is quite noticeable that we are not in a relationship. Their happiness is more than adequate compensation to me, and while I can in no way guarantee the future, I will allow this story to evolve and see where it takes us.

[sachertorte]

Thank you for your thoughtful and loving account -- above all love for your children. I wish you the very best.

I had scanned forums for midlife transitions, and your description of the allure of a new life recalls a quote that much struck me. (I personally do not call them MLCs any longer; I think it is best for me to think of them, to the extent I can, from the perspective of the people that live them.) I think it was a man who posted this:

I'm 55 and feeling it now, a little bit. Getting lost in some thoughts of, " Why didn't I ...?" and, " I shoulda_____."

But that's all BS. The past is gone. I live now and for the future. I can start my life over any minute. I just have to choose to do so. Sometimes I do that more than once a day. As long as I retain that ability, there is no crisis.


Sometimes when I need energy to restart myself, this quote comes to mind. I don't need a new beginning, as my life experiences is my endless treasury, and my gratitude for and curiosity about the world my joy. But I feel the conviction of the speaker in these words. I also think it can catch up to him at any time. It is anyone's guess what would happen.

[Returned]

One of the joys of the return has been family meal time. In their father's absence my boys had dealt with meals as something to be done on the run and it was often overly greasy. It took them a while to get used to it, but now that their father is back everyone sits down around the table like in the old days. Although I can't say there are conversations every time, and there are occasional absentees, this lends a sort of calm peacefulness to the house. My grandson had never had much stability in his life, but having three men at the table and a healthy well balanced meal which I have prepared and which is not fast food is a tiny step toward normalization. Never in my wildest dreams did I imagine that this tiny house which I bought for myself and lived in alone, would house 5 people.

[xyzcf]

Your mealtime sounds lovely. There is lots of research about how important family meal times are.

My husband loves to cook and when we are together or our daughter is coming to visit, we plan meals, shop carefully for the ingredients, prepare, serve and clean up the meal together. Food has significance, recipes that his mom or my mom would make as well as new recipes. We used to call it our "kitchen dance".

I am grateful for these times, a small bit of normalcy for us as a family. The last time my son in law was here, he had never met his father in law before his crisis and he remarked to me "mom, I don't understand. I see you both laughing, preparing food, he's teasing you, you tease him back....I just don't get it."I thought "welcome to the club".

You can see how this is having an effect on your son and grandson "this lends a sort of calm peacefulness to the house"...sometimes in life, we don't get everything we would want.

As we always say on HS, the LBSer gets to choose and no one else knows our situation as we do.

Thanks for keeping us updated. You seem quite grounded without any unreasonable expectations and I hope that the family continues to come together and create new memories and bonds.

[Biscuit]

Meal times have always played a huge part in our family life. I continue this tradition when we are a 3 not a 4 piece. The table is laid with cutlery and plates etc. candles are lit and we sit down and eat, talk and gripe. Then everyone helps clear up and goes there separate ways to decompress before coming back together for a tv show or movie.
The very rare days we have a TV dinner are also important because they are rare and it feels like a special treat for everyone.
 

[Returned]

Well I sure have an interesting situation. Hard to explain.
xH has been on his best behavior since he reappeared 4 months ago.
Letting him back home wasn't as hard as you might think, we had a perfectly fine relationship before bomb drop and I have
never really been interested in anyone else.
When he was in replay I had noticed marked physical changes he had undergone since he left. At the time they made me worry for his health, but he seems to be in perfectly good health.
However today I realized that he is physically so dramatically changed that he visually doesn't jive with my memories of him. That is to say that visually I barely recognize him. Not that that should be a big deal. However it does in a certain sense make it harder to reconnect because it is almost as if he left and someone entirely different came home in his place. When I see him close up I feel this loss of the person I used to know, it is like seeing a stranger and I wonder if he will ever come back home even though he is already here at home with us.
Not that I am complaining, frankly it is a dream come true to have my family back. Just that it feels so strange.

[Songanddance]

Returned I do understand that completely even though my H will not reconcile and we are living separately.

I liken it to the comment RCR makes in one of her earlier articles that it's almost as if the MLCer has to go through the fire and the actions/thoughts/ feelings of their crisis have to be "burned " out of them.

I don't think we ever have our spouses returned to us fully; I know that there are a handful of people on here who would argue differently and the common theme they have is that their spouse is kinder, more loving and thoughtful than before and has shown utter and complete remorse with a willingness to learn and grow.

Speaking just for me - my H is a little kinder and more appreciative but there is little else I recognise in him from the man I married and had three children with. True my H had a massive stroke 18 months ago and is still physically recovering but I see the physical and emotional shell of the man I believed I knew.

MLC does something to all of us.  The more I read and stay on this forum and see with my own eyes, the more I am convinced that the only one who struggles with life and who struggles to grow is the MLCer - the LBS and children are in this the case "the winners" because they have that chance and they take it with both hands because there is no other option.

Perhaps in time Returned - your spouse will "return" in other ways to you. It is still incredibly early days for a return and you are in the process of reconnecting rather than reconciling.  That will also come in time when you are both ready.

Be patient- continue to observe and above all else protect your heart so that you can continue to love unconditionally.

[Slow Fade]

This sounds familiar. My H came back different as well. Not so much physically, but mentally he is a different person. To be fair, I changed a lot while he was gone as well. It was like we had to get to know each other all over again.
Two broken people trying to pick up the pieces and build a new life together. We seem to be doing well together, but there is still a part of me that doesn't completely trust. I don't know if that will ever go away but I'm learning to put it in a place that I don't look at very often. 

((hugs))

[Returned]

Many thoughts about MLC and return today.

Based on my experience, and the experiences of other people in the forum over the last decade, I am a true believer in the existence of midlife crisis. At the time of bomb drop he was giddily euphoric, and he relentlessly and ruthlessly destroyed every remnant of his life in order to achieve that "new beginning" he was looking for. To say he lost everything is an understatement. Home, career, family, reputation, car, dog, book collection. It all went under the ax. It was almost as if he was afraid that if he left anything at all intact he wouldn't succeed. Watching him as this went down reminds me of observers who reported watching Nero giggling and playing the fiddle while Rome was burning, he truly truly seemed out of his mind.

I can confirm some observations which were made by other forum members. I remember other LBS reporting that their MLCer had accelerated aging. Whether this is due to poor lifestyle choices or whether it is due to hormonal changes which triggered  his MLC I cannot say but my xH looks more than 20 years older and I look about 10 years younger than when he left a decade ago. Forget restitution, I feel very very lucky to have him come home alive. Over the years I have heard stories of men who died within a few years of their MLC.

I remember other LBS reminding each other that the alienator as "just a bandaid". This was not true in our case. The alienator in our case was a serial home wrecker and a  relentless pursuer and she stalked our marriage for many years. I remember her going so far as to send gifts and letters for my xH to my house both before bomb drop and during early reconnection so that I would see them on the doorstep with her name written on them. She gets a thrill calling him and knowing she is talking to him on the phone with his wife and children nearby, within earshot, it is part of the tingle. She also loves the centrality of collateral damage, and so when my father died, and my kids were distraught and acting out, it affirmed to her that she must be very important so that my xH would leave his kids abandoned and homeless in order to be with her.

The other thing that I can clearly see now is that the alienator will gradually lose interest once the destruction has left nothing but ashes. A divorced, chronically unemployed, homeless, sad, aged MLCer does not offer much in the way of bragging rights. She begins to demand secondary gain. However she continues to hang on the edges to see if there is something more she can finagle out of him, maybe if he has a turn of luck and  gets a good paying job he can send her some money or she might even take him back.

Now that he has been home for four months it is almost like the scales have fallen from his eyes, and my MLCer can now see us. He had demonized me during replay, and when he first came home he had bizarre delusions about me which were interfering with our communications. At times I can see him fall back into the rabbit hole of these beliefs, and he will suddenly cut short a conversation with me when he is triggered, and wander away to talk with the kids. As you can imagine from this description I am left with an MLCer who needs a lot of rehabilitation. My sons can see it, I can see it. He came home with a small suitcase and the same clothes and possessions he left with 11 years ago. However his steady improvement over the last 4 months, both in his personality and his awareness, has left me very much aware that there is a light at the end of the tunnel and it is shining brightly, very brightly upon us.

[Treasur]

Thank you for sharing your experience, Returned.
As I said to FJ, I imagine it is very helpful to others who find themselves reconnecting with someone who is neither full on MLCer nor the pre BD version.

I think most of us who do not have that experience, or whose spouses vanished or remarried, find it hard to imagine being in your shoes or that the wisdom shared here about how MLCers and their lives turn out may apply to their own ex/spouse too with time. But there do seem to be some common experiences of it even if outcomes can vary.

But imho it’s very useful to provide some insight for those, perhaps early in, who are hoping for reconnection so much that it is not a simple or straightforward thing at all. That it is not an easy path for the LBS at all or perhaps a choice to go into without some level of strength and detachment and clarity about why you are. Perhaps not the full bonkers that follows BD, but perhaps still a slightly bizarre experience in a different way.

[xyzcf]

Thank you for continuing to write about your observations.

I am a true believer in the existence of midlife crisis.

Now that he has been home for four months it is almost like the scales have fallen from his eyes, and my MLCer can now see us.

There are presently a few other reconnection stories on HS. The insight from these and others who post updates is very valuable in understanding how this crisis severely affects the MLCer..but that there is a progression of similarities, just like there are  throughout the crisis.

One thing that I have been seeing on HS is that some of these reconnections are happening after many many years. Both the MLCer and the LBSer have changed and what has generally been written about is that the MLCer returns broken.

What happens when the fog lifts and the see the damage? Or, as some MLCers have written, there are many things that they do not remember.

"Happily ever after" is not what is being talked about in the stories of the crisis winding down.

Heartsblessing used to say "where there is love there is hope".

Many members do not come back and share their stories. I am grateful for those that do.

I relate so strongly to how you feel about being able to be together as a family. This is the LBSer's choice and their's alone. We do get to decide.

It's not being a doormat. It's not letting them eat cake. I do see it as a very unselfish act on the LBSer's part, to deal with a broken partner who perhaps is not able to meet our needs at all, not yet.........

I am a true believer in the existence of midlife crisis.

Indeed I am. We seem to have drifted away from understanding crisis ...thank you for sharing your journey here with us.

[Returned]

Me and xH have been spending a little more time together, and he has given me a ride, prepared dinner and otherwise been helpful
The boys have been drifting off to do their own activities.
I am starting to waver, and having some moments of doubt.
I had previously mentioned that at times my MLCer gets into a political rant. When he does this I never feed into it, I just let him be. However what is scary is that when he does this I can hear the choice of words and thought processes of the alienator at work. These are moments when he "channels" the alienator. I find it disconcerting, because it is not in keeping with his previous personality, my previous concept of him or our previous life together. Will his decade with the alienator forever scar him? When he gets into a political rant I can see why people avoid him. I have never seen someone so intelligent lose so much brain power.

[JohnnyBravo]

I have never seen someone so intelligent lose so much brain power.

That's interesting, my XW started getting that way as she ramped up to BD. She had always favored certain ideas which were common where she grew up, but they morphed into something extreme and irrational. She started getting more news from YouTube, and when I pointed out that she was watching the opposite-extreme versions of news shows she hated, she almost gleefully smiled, "I know!"

Ooooooooh kaaaaaaaaay... Maintain big posture, don't make eye contact, back away slowly...

[Slow Fade]

Ooooooooh kaaaaaaaaay... Maintain big posture, don't make eye contact, back away slowly...

Ok, this made me spit my coffee out my nose!! 

[Reinventing]

Slow Fade, me too! That was really funny, JB

Returned, I haven't experienced a return, but I wanted to empathize that what you described would be very hard to experience.

I watched something similar with a family member who has a pattern of beimg susceptible to people they date for the first 2-3 years of the relationship. They took on this vitriol and extreme views for awhile. What was particularly hard is that they were a favorite child of their mom and the gf got the mom, during her last months, watching shows that made her feel all that hatred and fear. It was so sad to hear the vitriol of the gf now through the mom as she was dying. So very sad to agitate an elderly person like that.

[KeepItTogether]

10 years is a big chunk of time Returned. My H has recently returned as well, after 6.  I often wonder about some of the things he says and if they are a residual effect of his time with OW. It is very triggering for me personally. I absolutely do not engage when I am feeling this way b/c I am not at my rational, composed best. LOL

Moments of doubt occur with me almost daily. These men are not well still. While they are on the road to recovery, they are still broken and not emotionally well enough to understand the implications of what has happened, and their role in it. It's hard to deal with. All we can do is be honest with ourselves and them, while utilizing our LBS learned skills of not reacting, exercising patience and knowing, most important of all, that most if not all of what they do and say has nothing to do with us.   

[Returned]

I can say that xH has progressed remarkably in the past 6 weeks. His conversations are thoughtful and lucid. He is reading more. More importantly in many ways I get the feeling that he can "see" us, in a way that I had not seen since before bomb drop.

Having said that he has had difficulty reinserting himself in life here. He assiduously avoids many of his old friends. I can tell he misses his country. After six months here he recently quit his job, a job that paid well but that I could tell was uninspiring for him. Men in his country retire early at around 60, and at the age of 67 it is certainly his right to decide if the time has come that he does not want to work. He is returning to his country and does not say for how long. However this time it is different. He has reconnected with one of our sons, and with the other and our grandson slightly less so but that is in many ways related to lifestyle differences. In his absence of course our sons lost many cultural traits from his country and he still loves them but he finds them difficult to understand.

Despite his imminent return to his country I very much feel that his 6 months here has "returned" him to us. I can tell he is out of the tunnel, and now he is confronting issues regarding retirement and what he wants to do with himself. His words are generally kind and thoughtful, and I can see he is no longer angry, nor does he wish to harm us. He is no longer hypersensitive and he no longer misinterprets things.

It is unclear to what extent the alienator is still pulling all the strings. I can tell my xH greatly fears scandal and rejection, and I think his fear of conflict as well as his desire to live quietly in his native land plays a large role in his decision-making process right now.

I remember stories of the settlers who came West and the American Civil War veterans, and how in the 1920s the survivors would spend hours upon hours sitting with each other and revisiting their memories of the adversities they faced. To some extent my xH is like this. He is trying to find himself in history, a history which we both shared. The difference is that I am still very much inserted in the modern world, with a grueling work schedule and many many family responsibilities. He is very much nostalgic for the past, and he has a hard time grasping and understanding all the changes which have occurred.

This time I have an overwhelming feeling of calm. I am at peace with myself. I have done everything I can possibly do to help him. Now it is only a question of seeing what happens with time.

[Imgood]

Returned - How are things going? Any update?