[WHY]

This happened when middle son's girlfriend said that her parents had sent a very small Christmas gift to my ex-H (I had been given a lovely gift box from them) and she said that she felt very awkward giving it to him, and instantly regretted it, as apparently he became very angry and verbally abusive, and told her to 'never, ever do that again'. 
Luckily all three of the boys were there, and told their Dad to stop.  She went outside and middle son went out to be with her and was absolutely furious that his dad would have done that to her (that same old behaviour we have all experienced since BD). 
Apparently, my exH then came out to talk to her, no apology, no acknowledgement, but started quizzing her about unrelated 'stuff' in a happy happy joy joy way.  She said it was so false and awkward, and she has never liked him or felt close to him, but had always put up with him for middle son's sake.

    There are no words.

I've "seen" so many of your children become adults via this forum, and it makes me sad for you all that your families still have to navigate this. But it speaks volumes that you've all stepped up and done the work of two parents and prepared them for a life where hopefully none of them tip into MLC themselves.

This is my greatest fear.  The only thing I’ve ever cared about are my kids.   They don’t deserve this.   

I intend to create a thread at some point to discuss what the best way to tell the kids about D is (ie the narrative). I’m not falling on my sword saying it’s a joint decision.   But I’m not going to cause conflict at their expense either.  The vets here must know of a good way to do it.  More to be discussed at a later stage. 

[kikki]

Hi T&L, we absolutely have been in the trenches together, and your post inspired me to write down what I was pondering re the boys' Dad. 

It's really curious that your exH was aware enough that he at least had to put on a bit of a show of empathy for your son, but the wheels soon fell off that it would seem, as again you are the default blame setting.

It's infuriating hearing the gaslighting they are still doing - I know how you also bent over backwards to try to include your exH.  I recently heard from an old flatmate from my youth, who we haven't seen in years, that my exH told him that our company was all his (and all of his own grit) and that he had shared care of our boys with me.  Such enormous porkie pies.  You'd think we should be able to roll with the metaphorical 'punches' after all of these years, but I do think when you've managed to finally escape their grasp and control, and carry on with as normal a life as possible, it comes as a shock to be dragged back into their fantasy world and untruths.
Don't be sorry for being angry that the pain and sorrow is still a possibility at times, especially where our children are concerned.

My experience has always been that this kind of thing means that something isn't good in his life; we may or may not eventually find out what it is this time.

We see this same pattern.  It could be that work tends to be very rare in January - and he possibly doesn't know what to do with himself - plus he'll be worrying that this is the end of his career - the classic concern of the freelancer. But one son mentioned December was also quiet.  Or it could just be that he is 61, with vast volumes of shame that he lives with, and minimal amounts of self esteem. These MLCers don't tend to age with much grace.

I too am shocked that he seemed to have zero traction towards any healing for himself.  I honestly was thinking he might be over the worst, and was trying to reconnect with the boys and make amends. 

Thanks for clarifying.  S1 and S2 would work  

Thank you Ready2T.  You have been like their wise 'Aunt' all of these years, and for that I am very grateful.  Would have been a far wobblier navigation without you.

WHY, my mantra always was that I wanted my children screwed up as little as possible from the effects of their father's crisis and implosion.  I tried to mitigate the damage at every turn.  We can buffer them a great deal from a lot of it, but not all.  I even have to wonder if this is why they are happy to dip their toes into his world at times, because they weren't aware of as much of it?  They now have to work this out for themselves, and readjust their expectations once again, but as always, we continue to be here with our safety, security and listening ear.

Re the D conversation.  I made it very clear to our boys, that it was a unilateral decision that my exH was making.  He was so 'out there and off the charts' with his new behaviour, they knew things were very strange. 

he one thing that particularly grated was that he told S that he had left because of me, that he didn't want to be with me, not that he didn't want them.  And he has then for the past goodness knows how many years shown them that he has absolutely and completely left them as well.  It's bad enough telling your kids that you just don't want to be with their mother  (i.e. he just wants what he wants, when he wants it, and so on), but to try to say that it's my fault (apparently I didn't let him see them -- anyone who might have known me then knows that I bent over backwards to try to include H in everything, probably even when I shouldn't have, that he had complete and unfettered access, etc.) is beyond the pale.

Why he feels the need to blame me after so many, many years is completely bonkers.  As far as we can tell he has got And I feel so empty again, pretty much realising that the selfish qualities (that we often here compare to narcissism) that came to the forefront at BD have never  changed, he has got exactly nowhere.

This from T and L sums up exactly how most of these conversations go. 
My exH insisted on speaking to the boys himself about us separating (bearing in mind that I am still waiting for our conversation regarding separating - between my exH and myself) - this was before I found this forum, and I regret allowing that to happen, because this is exactly how that conversation went - it was all my fault, he never wanted to marry me, he did it because our parents expected it, he was so unhappy and he deserved to be happy - as he waltzed off into the sunset on his vespa, and many long haul holidays overseas - ignoring his sons. The boys were distraught and knew it was untrue.  They had also lived in our family for all of those years.

So my advice, if you can agree on a narrative beforehand, that would be good (but don't necessarily expect a MLCer to stick to it) and do not agree to letting them have the conversation with the kids alone.

[WHY]

I mean the second she moves out and we have 50/50 kids after D, she’s gonna have that conversation daily with them.  I’m not sure how to navigate this.  I refuse to accept my kids will suffer damage from added bad behavior like this.  It’s bad enough they have to deal with D. But having one parent spin BS and mess with their minds.  I will go to mattresses.   

[kikki]

That is a very tricky one WHY.  I am forever grateful that I had the kids 100% of the time.  As you suggested, it would be a good topic for a discussion thread as I'm sure many people have had to navigate this exact situation.  And no doubt it varies depending on the kids ages.

[Trustandlove]

I, too, always made it clear that it was completely H's decision, this of course was made completely clear by the fact that he left right at BD, and that I had the kids 100% of the time, like kikki.  I remember way back when, he had just been gone a few months, and my D asked him about it, and he just told her that he had a new life now.  Awful for her to hear, but at least it confirmed that it was about him.   

The only thing that my former H ever gave me a reasonably clear answer on was that he wanted me to raise the kids.  So when he monstered about not liking something about it, saying that they "weren't like others their age" (yes, really, and more besides), I was at least able to say that if he wanted me to raise them he had to trust my parenting.

When it all started I remember S2, who was 10 at the time, screaming at me to "apologise and get Dad back"; that stopped quickly, however, as even as little children they saw that it was H who had disappeared.

My MLCer kept saying that he wanted us to sit down with them to tell them, but that never happened.  It took him 9 years to divorce me (he had gone through many OWs by then, it turned out that he married number 6), and he did tell at least S2 (H uses the divide and conquer method, never speaking to them together) that the divorce had been final.  So in some ways that made it easier.

My default "speech" was that I was far from perfect, but that I couldn't stop H from leaving and that I couldn't know what was in his head.  That my priority was and would always be to be there for them.  I remember a counsellor saying that a neutral way was "when someone is unhappy they can either figure out how to be happy where they are, or leave.  H chose to leave." 

I don't know what is going on with my former H right now; as I said a few posts ago I have reason to believe that he might not be with OW6 any longer, but in reality I don't know.  My kids have never met her btw, he tried to force S2 to do so some years ago but he refused. So even they don't know.  FWIW we don't even know exactly where he lives, he has told them conflicting things....  In any case what is written about narcissistic supply does come to mind; he seems to be grasping for some....   

Kikki, you always had my back when I needed it through the worst of it all, I still often think of you, on the other side of the world!

x

[Ready2Transform]

Thank you Ready2T.  You have been like their wise 'Aunt' all of these years, and for that I am very grateful.  Would have been a far wobblier navigation without you.

Right back at you, my sister from the future (at least 19 hours. )! 

[WHY]

From the fog stories from the other side.  Is there any pattern to HOW the MLCer's fog lifts? 

Forget asking when.  There is no when in la-la land.  Time has no concept. 

But as for HOW.  Ive read about rock bottom (but RCR says they can keep digging).  Or Hearts Blessing's "real or perceived sense of loss". 

But what about Shocksis and others that have come through it.  What do they actually say was the trigger for their awakening?  What happens that causes them to finally stop escaping and look inward?

[kikki]

But as for HOW.  Ive read about rock bottom (but RCR says they can keep digging).  Or Hearts Blessing's "real or perceived sense of loss".

But what about Shocksis and others that have come through it.  What do they actually say was the trigger for their awakening?  What happens that causes them to finally stop escaping and look inward?

WHY, that really would have to be in the category of rhetorical question - in my opinion, and in my experience.

From what I have seen, there are a million different reasons for someone going into crisis, and what it looks like and for how long that is, is unique to each individual.   Personally, I think the people who come out the other side appear to be more on the spectrum of mid life transitioners, vs the extreme crisis that many of our former spouses had/continue to have.

[Ready2Transform]

I agree with kikki. Why does one person stop smoking when another won't even let lung cancer stop them? Some could lose everything because of gambling but would rather live in a box on the street while still trying to get the big win than quit, while others see it as a fool's game and get help before it's too late. I think most of us felt we knew our spouses well enough to predict they would run out of steam and wake up. The lesson was ours, not theirs. And we are in control as to when *we* have that awakening. What are our own personal rock bottoms in that regard?

[limitless]

Apparently former H had started out saying that he had screwed up by leaving them, but that had quickly descended into blaming me again.  S said that he told his dad to stop, and just listen.  That H had never put them first. He said more as well, but I wasn't there.   S said that after the dinner he reflected and realised that nothing had changed; he said that H had seemed a bit desperate (grasping?).  S said that he had no empathy whatsoever for them. 

The one thing that particularly grated was that he told S that he had left because of me, that he didn't want to be with me, not that he didn't want them.  And he has then for the past goodness knows how many years shown them that he has absolutely and completely left them as well.  It's bad enough telling your kids that you just don't want to be with their mother  (i.e. he just wants what he wants, when he wants it, and so on), but to try to say that it's my fault (apparently I didn't let him see them -- anyone who might have known me then knows that I bent over backwards to try to include H in everything, probably even when I shouldn't have, that he had complete and unfettered access, etc.) is beyond the pale. 

Trust & Love

What a bunch of baloney....is coming out of his mouth.

My Ex told the kids (and me) that he left ME - not them.  Funny, he then spent the next 10 years or so barely seeing them and having very little contact.  Our kids were 20, 16 and 16 at the time of BD - so it was complete baloney that i had any impact or control over how much or little he saw them.  They all had cell phones (that he paid for) - so he could contact them whenever he wanted to.

I remember you making every effort to have your Ex involved during the time your kids were growing up and schooling. 

Like mine, he was too busy with his "new/exciting life."

It is so easy and typical for the MCLer to blame the spouse.  I wonder if they ever can take responsibility for what they have done? 

I would like to think those who actually work through their crisis - make some effort to repair old relationships with their adult children.  My Ex seems to be forever stuck....  He just wants our kids to accept his new/old wife and be part of a family with the two of them.  It just doesn't work like that.  I am not sure how, exactly, it works...but forcing your adult kids to accept your affair partner as Step Mom doesn't cut it.

Hope all is well with you.

L