Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: Rollercoasterider on April 28, 2019, 11:35:18 PM
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For many the affair is the big issue that is driving MLC. Sure it causes other issues that are more often more serious, but it’s the affair the we notice, that we focus on and that may have accused our initial shock and pain.
You have fear, anger, frustration, curiosity… Who is this person? Who could do such a thing? Why would they do such a thing? How can they care so little for your family, for what they are destroying?
Are they a terrible person? Do they have some serious character flaws? They seem to lack empathy for you and how they are hurting you (perhaps like your MLCer), does this mean they have a personality disorder?
Focusing on the alienator is not something I recommend. I also don’t recommend that you focus on MLC—says the person who has spent years researching and writing about it!
Once one has a basic understanding of MLC, just look forward and move forward.
I love how Lawprofessor said that because her words were simple, concise and direct. I think the same thinking can be applied to the alienator. Give the alienator enough attention so that you can let go and stop giving her or him the attention. It’s normal to obsess in the beginning—even if normal is not healthy. But you are normal and what you are doing is part of how you get through from just normal to normal and healthy. Not everything we give attention to leads to our healing—we could heal without knowing some stuff, but it’s still part of the typical process of healing.
I just want you to know that you are not crazy because you are going crazy over the alienator—or other stuff! You are normal.
This thread is for you to let us and others like you know how you are feeling. I want you to feel safe here. It’s okay to not like the alienator and talk about it. It’s okay to be confused how you feel about the alienator—on DB we had a situation where the alienator was the LBSs kid sister—yes, kid—maybe 20. The alienator may be a narcissistic and vindictive mate poacher who deliberately goes after married men for pleasure. Or another MLCer—like yours. Or a stupid and naïve young thing who doesn’t get that marriages don’t just end easily because someone new comes along and that relationships don’t typically last when they are founded on betrayal. Being an alienator can make a person act in ways out of their norm; it can be crazy-making and some alienators were already at crazy. Some behaviors may be similar and yet within the norm for some and out of it for others.
Please let’s keep this civilized. I am not trying to stifle your emotions, please express yourself, but moderators will be on hand if anything gets out of line. And be nice to each other too!
I’ll start with a bit about the alienator from my situation.
- She was older—8 years older than me and 1 year older than Chuck.
- She worked with him at a retirement home and was fired soon after the emotional affair began.
- She had an 18 year-old daughter who lived at home, worked as a stripper and had a drug problem. The daughter had a baby a couple years into the MLC/Affair.
- Some of you avoid using the alienator’s name. That’s not really an option since she has a name that is quite popular…one of Chuck’s cousins shares that name along with the mother of Jesus. So now you know it too. It made that part a bit easier since I had to face it and say it for others whose energy was not negative in my life.
- She faked a pregnancy the first time he left her—early in the affair. (Aug 2005)
- He left her again and was worried she would be at his work waiting for her early the next morning, so it was my job to keep her on the phone when she called to scream at him—while he drove to work. I talked to her for a few hours—I said a few choice things at first, then stopped and I kid you not, counseled the alienator for about 3 hours—phone died and she called back. That was weird.
- Later she told him she had something wrong with her brain and would not fix it—and would die—unless he returned to her. (Dec 2005)
- While Chuck was at home (living) with me she texted him and said he HAD TO come and take her to the emergency room. She refused to call an ambulance (her need was real) or go to her parent’s house—they lived on the same block. Instead, she called her married boyfriend who lived 20 minutes away and was home with his wife—sitting next to him telling her what was going on! This was so absurd to me that I was able to laugh at it. (Dec 2005)
- After he broke up left her again (6th? Time) she came to our house, drove around the block (through our private back alley) several times. Banged on the front door. Then went into the alley again and trespassed into our backyard. The cops arrived to find her on our back deck banging on the sliding glass door—with me and a frantic Te’Amo (German Shepherd) on the other side of the door.
- She was a Certified Nursing Assistant and later got a job at a local hospital in the cardiac ward. In the last year (2008) of Chuck’s MLC his mom was on that floor of the hospital and the alienator showed up in his mom’s room. As I understand it, the family was upset and confused. I was not there—his family is so private that married-ins are not welcome to visit at the hospital.
I am not a doctor or a mental health professional, so I cannot diagnose, but that does not mean I do not think a Personality Disorder—BPD—may be part of the mix here. I don’t think this was how she was because she was caught up in the infatuation of an affair; I think this was how she was before Chuck came along, but it’s not something I know with facts…just my sense of it.
Was I angry at her? Probably, but what I really felt was a lot of eye-rolls regarding her behavior and found the situation easy to laugh at. She was so much a clear Affair Down that I stopped feeling scared pretty quickly. This changed how I acted—I did not take on the part of the scorned and instead was confident. I also made a very deliberate effort not to be disrespectful of her. How? I was very clear with Chuck that I did not want him to be disrespectful to her. He would sneak out of her house when he moved out and the first time I told him to go break up with her in person. After that I had to drop it because he refused, but both he and she knew that was his doing, not mine. Why? Not out of respect for her personally, but because if you treat one woman like that you can treat any woman like that. She knew—he must have told her—it was me who said he needed to face her instead of sneak out.
Okay, it’s your turn.
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Thanks for this thread RCR. I wish I could laugh at the situation I find myself in but it's just far far too painful. But then my husband left me a week after meeting this woman in the local pub and has been full steam ahead with her ever since (no returns from him and apparently no regrets).
I suspect (would like to believe?) that for him it is limerence and for her BPD. But I just don't know. The things I have heard about her from others that know her (including her ex BF) suggest that she has... issues (in general and with past relationships), but my H can't speak more highly of her and is very protective of her.
He now lives with her (since Dec18/Jan19?) and recently transferred a car he bought into joint names with her. Our family (I'm very very close to his family) has only seen her and him a handful of times and they all say 'she seems nice'. Whilst I know that she will have been on her best behaviour during these times it's still incredibly hurtful to me that they don't hate her and tell me how horrible she is. I know that's ridiculous, but feelings often don't comply with logic do they.
What I'd really like to know from anyone with experience of BPD relationships, is 'can they hide it?'. An, if so, for how long? Everything I've read about BPD relationships makes it fairly clear that they are generally short lived. But what I'd like to know is whether signs would already be appearing and my H (due to halo effect/limerence?) is simply ignoring them for now. Or is she able to hide her disorder because it's all going so well for her right now? How do these relationships evolve time-wise? I don't think I know anyone IRL that is BPD (although knowing what I know now I think my step-mother was) so it's all unknown to me except from what I read on the internet.
Many people here have said to me that 'it doesn't matter'... and maybe it doesn't. But, to me, it would explain how this relationship went from 0 to 1000 in five minutes. It would explain why this woman is clinging to my H. It would explain why she didn't care that he was married (despite telling him he should 'work on his marriage' she did anything but allow that to happen). And it might also give some insight into how the relationship might go. And that DOES matter to me. I'm human, and I hurt. And I can't help hating that she 'has my husband'.
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Rollercoaster, wow that was some other woman you had to deal with. What I don't get is why some other women are like that and some seem to be "perfect"?
In my case when I found out about the ow I emailed her the next day of course calling her a homewrecker and this and that. Her email back to me was that she was not a homewrecker and that he loved me. She was playing it up as if she was helping him to work through his issues, the ones that I didn't know he had. She told me she would quit her job (she was his coworker) and she would not talk to him again. This never happened. I believe we would have worked it out if not for her hanging on to her knight in shining armour.
Fast forward almost three years (three years in August) they now live together. I had to drop my daughter off yesterday (she lives with them) so of course I've been monkey braining since 430 this am.
Her car was in the driveway, his on the road (small driveway). Looks like an average home. They rent mind you BC he left everything with me. I hate going there but I have to learn how to deal with it if I want to see my daughter more (we live on opposite sides of the city so she needs rides more often) . That was the second time I went there and I really don't know how to deal with it.
This ow and I have never had contact except that one email that I initiated. She doesn't cause me any problems (except stealing my h) and we basically just live as if each other doesn't exist.
Why do some ows cause so many problems and other just gleefully live their lives with their new MAN? No cares in the world for what they have helped to erase (years of marriage) . I can't stand the fact that they appear to be living a normal life. If I obsses this much does that mean that she does the same thing? Oh how sometimes I wish I could be a fly on the wall.
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Whilst I know that she will have been on her best behaviour during these times it's still incredibly hurtful to me that they don't hate her and tell me how horrible she is. I know that's ridiculous, but feelings often don't comply with logic do they.
No it's not ridiculous to have those feelings. That part of the family has been placed in an awkward situation and they don't want to take sides. They probably find her nice because at this still very early stage that is the game she is playing. She believes she can become your replacement - her logic is flawed and sooner or later this too shall pass. Your family is probably embarrassed and most of us when placed in this awkward situation will remain civil, polite and wait to see what happens but most certainly not get involved - it's call self preservation.
What I'd really like to know from anyone with experience of BPD relationships, is 'can they hide it?'. An, if so, for how long? Everything I've read about BPD relationships makes it fairly clear that they are generally short lived. But what I'd like to know is whether signs would already be appearing and my H (due to halo effect/limerence?) is simply ignoring them for now. Or is she able to hide her disorder because it's all going so well for her right now? How do these relationships evolve time-wise? I don't think I know anyone IRL that is BPD (although knowing what I know now I think my step-mother was) so it's all unknown to me except from what I read on the internet.
This is what RCR is referring to in the first post - the need to know and the feeling that you have to understand the dynamics of this relationship. It is normal and part of your self growth. There will come a time when you will be able to step back and see this part of the crisis for what it is - escape and avoid on the part of your MLCer. You will hear that she is a sticking plaster and a symptom of his crisis and for the first few months maybe even couple of years - you will not find that helpful. But it's true.
My H's OW lasted 3.5 years and she was "Lovely" for the first 18 months/2 years and then the gloss wore off and H began to feel drained and controlled. Once I had totally got who and what she was and once I was (with help from my T) able to zone out any triggers -my life picked up and moved onto a higher level. I cared so little that I it wasn't until after about 5 months after their break up that I realised they had broken up.
And that DOES matter to me. I'm human, and I hurt. And I can't help hating that she 'has my husband'.
Of course it matters. I think you may have misunderstood what the intent is behind the phrase " she doesn't or the affair doesn't matter" It does and always will do but it is how you respond to it that matters. The hurt doesn't go away - it lessens and with the compassion that we have we begin to see the affair for what it really is and then the hurt may go away but the memory will be sustained. If we are still obssessing over the affair many many months in then we are beginning to hurt ourselves; that stunts our own growth and our ability to move forward (not ON- I hate it when people say "move on" ).
I found that if I became a student of MLC first and then affair partners I could begin to develop a degree of logic. Don't get me wrong - I collapsed in the therapist's office 5 months after BD because I couldn't cope even though I had started "studying". You will find that you will go up and down with this...let it process and eventually you will be able to step back and be on a more even and detached keel in your thinking.
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This is a copy of the letter OW sent me 3 weeks after BD. I knew her and unwittingly had brought her and H together in a show.
She was married herself but was going through separation procedure with her H. Bizarrely my H and her H would have dinner together with her and their children and her H accepted my H as the new man in her life. He even told my H " You have her - I couldn't make her happy - perhaps you can do a better job?"
“Dear S&D..
I realise that a lot has been said and written (meaning she has read H’s BD letter to me)
And I felt that it was time that I should write things from my perspective. You are under no obligation to read it but I wanted…. to cover the points in a rational manner and in a way that you could digest them at a pace you are happy with.
I would first of all like to say that I never set out to have any feelings for H ….but I am unable to ignore the force that has put us together and forged a union that has taken me completely by surprise.
I did not set out to hurt anybody and have not asked anything of H that he has not willingly given… I will support him in the situation that he needs to be in to be able to be at peace with himself whether that is with me or you………(long info about her finance and current H and her medical issues…)
……Family is one of the most important things to me and I am always the one to provide, my H and I agreed early on that we would not stay together for the sake of the children and I believe that you should stay in a marriage because you want to be with the other person…….you have to be someone that the other person wants to be with… it is not an automatic right because you have made vows…
I have always been quite private and found attention difficult……. In your H I have found someone where I am completely able to be myself…. He brings out the best in me and we are very positive together….. As much as it hurts me for my family to be broken like this…..
(she then expands on how “private” she is….and how she is leaving her H because he doesn’t want to join her “journey” of self discovery)
He is aware that his decision is a major flaw…. As much as he may wish to be he is not the right companion for me at this stage…I very much hope that I can continue my journey with H(mine)
I do not want you to think that I have taken these steps lightly or without a lot of soul searching… It is inevitable that people will be hurt but is it right (now paraphrasing because her sentence is far too long) for one to sacrifice his (ie my H) happiness simply out of duty – it is very selfish of the other (ie ME S&D) to expect that.
If you would like to meet to discuss this then I am happy to do so.. I’m sorry if you feel that I have intruded but I am …. A helpful person and care deeply for others often to my own detriment.
I do not ask anything for me…..but I do ask this for H as it is tearing him apart and I will support him with whatever he needs.
Hopefully this has helped some of you understand what some alienators are like......
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I think it requires a lot of emotional discipline to not engage or speculate or feel strong emotions about the ow. Our logic tells us that she is a stranger, not our 'problem' to deal with and perhaps simply a symptom of a changed spouses desire for a new self/life. That really she is not our business.
Yet this stranger - at a minimum - played a significant part in destroying your life and family for no other reason than bc it gave them something they wanted. And in some cases, doing that is not enough but they also stalk, threaten, badmouth or steal from you albeit with the collusion of your spouse. And many ow in particular do try quite hard to pull the LBS into whatever triangulated story they are telling themselves and others. My xh's ow has frequently said things claiming to speak on his behalf, some pretty awful and some about our own history together. It is impossible to know what is true or false when my h/xh chose not to speak for himself hardly at all of course. It feels like a cruel attack bc it is a cruel attack; my only redress was as my father used to say to 'not let them see you sweat' by ignoring and blocking and using the law where appropriate. But I have often wanted to scream, throw things and punch people. It is sometimes very frustrating to feel abused by a stranger without being able to have a voice that feels heard, even when your brain keeps telling you that ignoring them and their life is the very best thing.
Sometimes tbh it feels as if your spouses sees you as an enemy to be destroyed and ow, along with other folks or family members, are part of an army against you. For me, for instance, the few family members who were at his marriage to ow who knew me/us for years were passively saying that they found it acceptable for me to be threatened, stolen from, gaslit and ignored when I was grieving and ill. As long as my h was 'happy'. I have said and done nothing but that is not ok to me and will never be ok. They should feel ashamed of every meal they had at my table, every bit of family support I provided, every gift, every card...but they won't bc it is easier and they do not care what happens to me either. So, ow/om is part of our occasional need to vent but for many it also includes family or friends who betrayed us too. No contact can end up being a pretty broad scythe :)
I suppose my hope is that if ow is a bit disordered (from the facts or actions you can see without getting into complicated diagnoses lol) ignoring them is a bit like Tinkerbell in Peter Pan, that being ignored as unimportant is their kryptonite.
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I have heard my h ow is really a very nice person and a really good mom. h has told me how sweet she is. How do you deal with that? Does not sound like a perssonality disorder of any kind. . or the typical affair down, ..She beleived h was getting a divorce from me. thats it end of story. He then has that right to date whom ever he chooses. He was done with me.
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Well, your h lies of course...to you, to others, to her too evidently. So who knows? As a general rule, 'sweet' women probably shouldn't sleep with married men of course....
In a way, it doesn't matter. On a positive, it means if she is, then you are not likely to be stalked or the recipient of insane letters like the one Song posted. She will just keep her head down and stay away from you.
Ah, I see Song that this woman was sleeping with your husband and hurting two families essentially as an act of helpful support eh? What a delusional self centred fruit basket.
It is right and truthful that our anger about the affair should be focused on our spouse. It is also true that I deeply resent the many times, sometimes known sometimes not, when this stranger inserted herself into my life without my knowledge or invitation. Their relationship is their business now he is my xh, but our relationship was our business before then. So, no, I don't think much about her or their relationship but I am not a fan of her as a human being. Which I think is just fine. :)
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I didn’t initially have a huge problem with Ow because I believe I managed to kick H out (because he was being a twonk so I thought I would kick him out for a day or two. He’d come back be fine blah blah) before any affair could start. I don’t believe anything happened before he left. So I don’t feel “betrayed” by her.
However, I did everything wrong. I won’t lie. I found out they had met for coffee so I messaged her on Instagram and gave her what for. I even called her a s!ag. I told her we had split up the day before I messaged her. (I lied because I thought it would force her to leave him alone - I know I know!) I can’t remember the exact words she used but she said something to me, in this initial exchange “Woman to woman why do you even want to be with someone who clearly doesn’t want to be with you. I get you have a family but give it up” which ofcourse coloured my view of her. She then told me to concentrate on my “ugly feral children”. Again back is truly up. H then was rushed to hospital and she was with him. Her text ended with “don’t worry he’s alive just about” so I’m thinking it’s serious. But it wasn’t anything near that bad. I then spent a fair wack of time I won’t lie meddling in their relationship. Probably until around 4 months after BD. And she still clung to him and I remember thinking about her “WHY ARE YOU SO DESPERATE FOR MY H” “WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU” that type of thing. H had been unfaithful to Ow with me so I did take great pleasure in telling her this (I know I know!) and she still stick around. I think that’s when I worked out. Nothing I do will split them up. So Around 4-5 months after BD I gave up completely. Never contacted her. Never tried to meddle. Never did anything or the sort. I left them to it. What’s funny to note, is despite me not mentioning her directly or indirectly. My social media is being stalked within a inch of its life and Ow constantly baits me online. I don’t rise to it. She’s started buying the same clothes as me and wearing them. She’s started morphing into me.
I know for a fact that my H is a minimum of her fourth spoken for man. So to speak. And they tend to be people she works with. She’s now with the same company but moved to a different location. So my guess is once someone else comes along it’ll be bye bye H. She will keep him for now as he’s better than nobody but I know H doesn’t trust her due to comments I’ve made and his reaction to it.
I used to feel very much anger towards her. I would have happily walked past her body if she was on flames. Whereas now I just feel sorry for her. She must have such low self esteem issues to still be with H. But that’s her bed she made.
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Keep believing, I don't know, I don't believe it's ALWAYS an affair down situation. I just posted in my thread about OM, which seems to be good guy to be honest.
Then again, he wasn't the initial alienator, not even the second, maybe 3rd and got into a picture after our divorce (immediately after, I don't believe they wouldn't had between them before that but I do believe XW lied to him about us).
It's a bit confusing, I thought it's always obvious affair down situation but it's not, that makes me think too that maybe my XW wasn't MLCer after all?! Still I know she is, done ALL the script, played by the book, very obvious.
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If you could be a fly on the wall of the alienator's relationship with your spouse you would likely feel empowered and enlightened.
But that doesn't mean her Fakebook take on their relationship or what your friends tell you about her to make you feel better.
It doesn't mean your monkeybraining thoughts.
It means real, genuine observation.
If you were a fly on the wall in their relationship, you would see that your spouse does not treat the alienator as well as you, is selfish, is monster, is all the bad traits they develop in MLC with the OP, maybe even more so than with you. You would see that as HB says, it really is some recreation of a bad childhood dynamic they previously lived. You would see that the alienator is jealous of you and even wishes they were you. You would see that your spouse has no feelings of true love or empathy for the OP, they are just using them. You would know that the OP actually has many of the same flaws your spouse complained about in you.
I agree that nothing good comes in trying to manipulate their relationship, but knowledge is power. The more real information you have about the OP, the more it builds your self-confidence. The more you can see how your spouse is with another person, the more you can reflect on your own relationship and improve on it.
As a fly on the wall...but don't be the fly that lands on their plate, as the reaction to that is predictable.
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For those of us with Vanisher, Goner, trickier to do bc we have very little info. And I have always valued my dignity too much to hunt for it. Turning away has always felt like the wise thing to do to me. Not my circus.
what you say may be true, idk....it could equally be true that my xh is treating her much the same as he did me in the first few years bc he was very happy and healthy then so is aiming for a do-over. Of course logically two things are different...she is not me and he is a heavily medicated depressed man under psychiatric care for over 2 years when they got married who treated his first wife appallingly. But I guess both he and she believe that they are sufficiently special, or I am sufficiently terrible, that none of this will affect them.....still not my circus though.
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Whelp mine is the 22 year old co-worker who is obsessed with becoming a Disney Princess, avid
stalker fan girl of the guy from walking dead, and likes to eat skittles in parking lots for their secret dates. ::)
I spoke to her on the phone in the beginning when I found a 40 minute call from him to her, I was calm cool and collected and directly asked her what her relationship with my husband was. At the time she said ''they were just friends'', ''she is sorry for her part in this'', ''I can talk to her whenever''. At this stage it was an emotional affair and had been I would say for about a year, it only took them a few weeks after this to become physical. MLCer used to say she was ''like a sister to him''...glad he never had a real sister. :o
The reality is she is very naive, and in love with the idea that he gave up everything for her. She lives with her parents, considers her cat her child, and is an art student. ::)
He sees a young girl (who looks similar to me), who is responsibility free and full of fun. Talks about how he has to entertain her, and has gave many speeches about how ''crazy and broken'' people who seemed so nice were. ??? ;)
They share no interests, and have a completely different sense of humour...but she is ''pliable'' and believes everything he says. She is the ego fluffer he desperately needs. She can't see through his lies and bull$h!te. She drew a picture, framed it, and put it on his desk (to mark her territory?). The picture said ''Best boyfriend ever''. How can a married man, with three kids, cheating on his wife and living with his mother be ''The best boyfriend ever''? ???
In all honesty writing this post has made me think of her more than I ever have so far. I am thankful for that truly.
Before I came to HS I knew she was a poor imitation of me from that time period when we were single, kid free, and fun. Only...she clearly has heaps less character, dignity, respect..and has a set of teeth that makes you think she might eat you when she grins at you. :o
I knew that whole dynamic wasn't because she was special, or better than me...I knew if it wasn't her it would have been one of the other low character girls from his work. I knew it in my gut, and then came here and read it all over HS and it confirmed what I knew.
So far the whole thing is kept on the hush hush. He deleted his FB so I (or she) couldn't post or tag him I believe. She has not updated her's the entire time. There are no pictures around of them so far. She is still the secret hiding in his closet.
He has changed departments at work (away from her, but still in the same company etc), and routinely talks of changing jobs. I wonder if this is because of the job (which he has had nearly a decade) or because he now needs to get away from her a bit. He goes through spells of calling in sick to work for a week..I imagine this is when they fight.
Last time I really heard/talked about her she had grounded him from using her toy car because he told her he wanted space. ::)
I am not angry with OW, she is just an idiot who was in the way. But I do not like her, because I do not like her character. Not because she is OW, but because I don't tend to like anyone who would destroy a family for their own happiness. Movies, books, TV programs...even before BD I didn't like those characters. She is just a character playing her part. Perhaps she see's herself as saving him from his evil wife, likely that is what he told her. The reality is, she is going to be collateral damage in a war she didn't know she was in... She has branded herself a cheater, an other woman, a home wrecker and that is a mark that will always be there...long after MLCer is not. I can't imagine she will garner much sympathy in the end.
So personally I feel in due time she will get what she put out. I direct the fault where it belongs, on my MLCer.
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Wow, Morte... Disney princess and skittles... ;D
MLCer used to say she was ''like a sister to him''...glad he never had a real sister. :o
;D
Goner, your post made me think...
What I believe is that my XW doesn't have the connection with him, not like we did anyway. Not sure if it's only about kids together which of course bonds us as long as we live but I don't really think so. In fact last summer I asked her, straight, did they get the connection, like we always did and she told me "probably not". At jan this year she told me she isn't going to get married again, right after that they got encaged... Maybe the connection found, or maybe not, probably just that she is dependent on SOMEONE, can't be on her own.
I'm not FB friend for XW anymore, I don't really know about their relationship, what I see is 2 minutes glance when picking up kids so you are right goner, without having a chance to be a fly on their wall, it's really no use to make any assumptions.
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Morte - maybe it’s a teeth thing as that’s exactly what my Hs Ow is like. One of my friends said she looked like a horse and another said she could eat an apple through a letter box 🤣 juvenile I know but hey
Goner - I’m not sure if it’s lucky or unlucky. But I know people who know Ow and every so often I get sent screenshots or her posts. She makes it clear with quotes etc on her Instagram when things don’t go well. There was even a time, she shot herself in the foot because she started getting her nails done at the salon (like I have been doing since I was 16) and then they split she uploaded a pic of her nails natural with no polish no acrylic and captioned it something about “not pretending anymore out with the old” that type of thing. I think we all know really that the relationship won’t last. I know it won’t. We all do. I think even they do which promotes the online gushy posts. Which promotes the photos like morte had. To prove to the outside world.
My Ow is an affair down in all sense of the word. Intact very soon after BD I remember telling H that he had “down graded” and he laughed and said something like “it’s not always about looks” which he’s right, but if you aren’t physically attracted to someone what hope is there? Especially at the start!
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When I found out about the affair I went ballistic. I don't think I have ever been that angry. I broke a chair and said horrible things to my wife. All of which I wish I could take back and now are used as justification. The fact is I don't think about the other man anymore. I have never seen a picture of him and he lives 2500 miles away.
I think my biggest concern is they don't see enough of each other to have the infatuation wear off fast enough. She flies out once a month or every other month to see him for a few days. The good thing is my kids haven't met him, so there is that. The only thing I have heard about him is from my nanny. She told me he is married and that my wife stated that "he is just like father5 his wife just fell out of love with him".
But I will never accept him and never be around him. I wish I was able to have Xmas and birthdays together for the kids but I just can't. I feel like I would be condoning what she is doing. She has asked for a life without me in it and that is what i'm giving to her. We don't talk at all accept about the kids in a text message or email only.
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Goner, thanks for the post. I think having a vanisher is what makes me want to be a fly on the way. But you could very well be right about the whole thing. It made me think.
Morte, wow, disney princess for sure. Interesting about a younger you. I once showed my boyfriend a pic of the ow, one that i found somewhere online early on, and he said "a younger you?" Very interesting indeed.
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Oh Song...that letter! GROSS!!!! Like Treasur said, what a delusional self centered fruit basket indeed!
My H's OW has been married twice. Had a son with H1. Cheated on H1. Divorced. Then, after marrying H2, decided she wanted another child....but with H1. So cheated on H2 with H1 for that child.
H broke up with her August 2017. She then proceeded to "go looking/stalking" him, with her S13 and D5 in tow. She sent her S13 to my MILs door at 7:30 am to see if H was there. MIL walked out to the car and yelled at her. Called her a homewrecking ow. Told the kids their mother was a bad person and that her "boyfriend" was a married man with a family of his own. 2 months later, H brings OW to his sister's wedding. OW had not spoken to MIL since the "incident." MIL kicks her out of the reception. Now H no longer speaks to any of his family--mother, father, sisters and brother.
I don't know how H treats her. But he has told me as recently as a month ago, while still with her, that he hasn't been happy in years. That he "ruined" his life. I know it is partly for sympathy from me. But I am sure there is some truth in it too. This particular variety of OW controls every aspect of his life. Best for me to bow out gracefully.
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But he has told me as recently as a month ago, while still with her, that he hasn't been happy in years. That he "ruined" his life. I know it is partly for sympathy from me. But I am sure there is some truth in it too. This particular variety of OW controls every aspect of his life. Best for me to bow out gracefully.
This is exactly the role that the other person plays in the crisis.
They take care of our spouses while the crisis persists.
Their relationship is doomed and very likely to blow up but
it is reality for the time being.
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It’s funnt isn’t it because I didn’t realise how bad these Ow (and men I’m sure) are. I remember thinking that it I confronted her. She would stop seeing my H. Heck I know if I was talking to someone and their ex sent me abuse i would bow out. Not her. I sent her evidence of him cheating on her. Again thinking she would bow out. To no avail. So around 4-5 months after BD I completely left them alone. No messages. No sly digs online. Literally nothing. Now I know what I’m dealing with I leave them to it. Oddly enough I see evidence daily of it crumbling around me without me doing anything.
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Sach we are told to "let the A run its course." Which is really hard. My H's OW was his bailiff and knew that I was in the middle of chemo when they started up their A. If someone can be with a man who abandons a woman in the middle of chemo, I am fairly certain that any "reasoning" will be totally lost on her. On one of my sicker days, they actually went to a major league baseball game, while I was left home to care for our child. I was also working full time and taking care of household stuff still too. SO the weekends during chemo I pretty much needed to stay in bed and recuperate. They are disgusting.
OP--That is exactly the kind of reminder I needed today. Thank you!
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I say the same. There was no reasoning with them. I mean I just wish I knew then what I know now. Because I wouldn’t have bothered messaging her. Or anything of the sort. But then it’s been over a year now of no reaction. And you can tell it’s killing her. She’s using any tactic she can to get a reaction from me. But she won’t get one!
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I say the same. There was no reasoning with them. I mean I just wish I knew then what I know now. Because I wouldn’t have bothered messaging her. Or anything of the sort. But then it’s been over a year now of no reaction. And you can tell it’s killing her. She’s using any tactic she can to get a reaction from me. But she won’t get one!
You are awesome! Being ignored is the worst. And it allows us to work on that "not focusing on OW" thing. LOL. (Which I suck at by the by)
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I found out about the OW by looking through his cell phone bill. I had suspected something for a while because he was attached to his phone 24/7 and was acting like an ass.
She was a co-worker he had meet 2 yrs prior and they were "friends" at first. She is two weeks younger than my H, MARRIED for 25 yrs at the time and has two grown kids. Of course her marriage was awful and her H was terrible. She needed a knight in shinning armour,,,,
I have never met her. I have only seen pictures of her and she never made any attempt to contact me. I have thought about contacting her many times but decided she isn't worth it. She isn't worth anything as far as I am concerned. I am sure she is scared to death of me and what I could do to completely destroy her professional and personal life if I really cared enough to do so.
The affair lasted 1 year. It was hard to catch him because they only saw each other at work and he was never late coming home, never spent any money on her and never even spent the night with her. It was all about ego kibbles and the land of make believe. Even my H calls it "Fake unicorn land" now. How a woman can take only scraps of a married man's time will forever baffle my mind. It used to piss her off when 5:00 came around and he had to leave to come home to me. She used to cry and throw a tantrum, and he didn't care. He always left her alone crying.
Once I busted him, he did try to continue to maintain both relationships and lied to me for another 3 weeks until I caught him again. I have a close friend that works at the same company they worked at and she saw them together. When I found out, I made him call her in front of me. I had to laugh,,,,It sounded like two teenagers being told they weren't allowed to see each other anymore.
On his own, my H quit his job and got another one away from her and the toxic environment he created. He told me a few months back that he knew the affair had run its course but he didn't know how to get himself out the situation. I think he almost kinda felt sorry for her. He has stayed NC and we are in year two since his affair, but I think his MLC started to appear in early 2013. It's been a hard long road but we are still trying to see if we can get through this together. He has never left our home and though he's struggling, he is trying. (well, the best he can at this stage in the crisis)
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Being perfectly honest, I can’t say it happened as an obvious “don’t focus on her” it was more of I noticed everything she posted was fake. So therefore I couldn’t take anything she posted seriously. Then I noticed she was posting a lot of quotes to try and get a rise out of me. The more I looked into things the more I realised just how irrelevant she was and still is. H himself admits this in not so many words but more his actions. Plus, I did start noticing when I tried to ruin things right after BD. She clung to him. Let him get away with murder. Yet when I sit back, relax and enjoy my life. I can see cracks appearing, so much so Ow is now copying my clothes, makeup, fake tan, nails etc etc. This from a woman that only started wearing makeup fake tan eyelashes acrylic nails in the past few months. So I’ll permanently have a box of popcorn in the house ready for the day it explodes.
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Everything I wish I hadn’t contacted her. I won’t regret it too much because I know it’s party of my story and destiny but I believe had I not contacted her. It would probably have run it’s course by now
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Here is what I know about the OW in my H's MLC.
-Long time family acquaintance. Our kids went to school together and played sports together. Always spoke when we ran into each other.
-She was very much aware I was in the picture. She knew me personally.
-She has 3 kids. Two different Daddy's. Two exes. H1 she had 2 kids with him. While getting divorced, she threatened to move into a dive for a home. H's parents didn't want the grandkids going there, so they financed a house for OW and her kids. OW never paid them back for it. Then one kids to boyfriend after H1. This guy was a drug addict. She cried poverty to my parents who felt sorry for her to get help to take care of her kids. My parents lent her money for Christmas presents and gave them an engagement dinner. They were never paid back. My parents knew her from church. Most recently was H2 from about 2012 or 13 to 2016. He is now out of the picture. Gone totally! Nothing known about him at all.
-She sold the house recently that she got from H1 and moved to another state to live with her Dad. H followed her 4.5 months later. He stayed for 1.5 months and came home under the pretense that he couldn't find a job. He told me he had offers but he didn't like any of them so he turned them down. In my opinion, if he were in tru luv, he would have taken a job to make it work until something better came along.
-Ow moved back to our area two mos after H left her in another state. She is living in the basement of her oldest child. Asked H to help her find a place of her own.
H lived with her on and off for two months when she returned before he moved in with his sister.
-It has been reported to me that OW likes to drink and frequented "dive" bars locally.
-It has been reported that in these bars, she would Hook Up with someone, leave and come back later for more drinks and another hook up. (Really gross)
-My H told her he is not divorcing me and even if he was, he was never ever getting married again and she should get those thoughts out of her head. This was after they were involved for less than 6 mos.
-When my kids would call H, he would not answer the phone when he was with her. If he did, they could hear her in the background wanted to know who he was talking to. She was pretty rude is what I was told.
-H says she is a good person and he can take care of her. He was giving her $100 a week to live at her place. Said she needed the money and he could help her out with it. Then would say that he knew where she hid the money and if he ever pi$$ed her off enough, he would take the money and leave. (Him giving her money makes it sound more like she is a prostitute!)
-H told me about her at BD but she is a huge secret. They don't go out in our town and not too much in nearby towns. They travel about 30 to 60 minutes outside the area.
-H has never taken her to any family functions. H still invites me.
-H's parents don't know she exists.
-H used to be electronically at OW's beck and call. If she called, he ran off to talk to her asap. If she texted, he responded ASAP. (I used to keep a close eye on phone records)
-I know she blocked me from every seeing any of her social media sites. I admit, I would have looked. I know H is not there as he shut down all his stuff except for IG and Snap. He posts little to IG. He uses snap all the time.
-My H told my daughter in law that OW's biggest fear was that he would leave her and return to me.
-Told me their relationship was not about sex, but when H was living with me I snooped because she was very protective of a bag. Turned out that bag was filled of enjoyment toys....all for her. None for H. So sex was all about her.
-H now living with sister and having slumber parties with OW.
-H doesn't take calls from GS when he is with her either. Sometimes he remembers to call later, sometimes he doesn't.
-The few people who do know of her are appalled that he has any interest in her. They have not very nice descriptions of her. She has a reputation around town in lowly places. I never knew of it but I don't frequent those places either.
OW2 - EA only. We all knew each other from school. She popped up suddenly on FB one day and was friending a bunch of people. From what I see on FB, I think she is in a MLC. Frozen paralyzed face with no smile and dark eyes. Can't smile to save her life. Older pics show a beautiful smile. She lost a great deal of weight. Her H is pursuing her on FB. Constant LOVEY posts. This ow lasted about 4 to 6 mos then was suddenly gone. Once she disappeared, life with OW 1 seemed to pick up with more of a frenzy again.
OW3 just started. Know absolutely nothing about her. Which also means she knows nothing of me and nothing of OW1. I would say it is possible that H is lying to her. The high with OW1 may be wearing off so this would give him a "high" of cheating on ow1. I read about an ex MLCer who did this. When the OW1 no longer brought him fireworks, he needed to cheat on her to create a high.
How do I feel about OW's? At first really hurt. Confused...bewildered. How could they do that knowing I was still there. Then I learned more about them. I would say that OW1 is clearly desperate and an affair down. OW2 and 3????? Don't know.
Now I feel sorry for all of them. OW 2 and OW 3 don't know the full story I am sure and they live far enough away to not get rumors. H has no FB so nothing leaking out there either. I know there are lies....I hope they can figure it all out before they get too involvved.
As for OW1: I don't get it. H supposedly doesn't treat her well, and from overheard convos, she doesn't treat H well either. I can not emphasize or understand the desperation that some of these people must feel to do the things they do. OW1 is a huge secret. No going out with family and friends and enjoying life. Very limited place to go out in public as we are from a small town. OW1 is content (?) to not attend any family functions? Truth be told, I don't know how much she spends with her own kids and grandkids...maybe family is not important to her at all. Right now it is not important to H much either. H won't commit to her.
There are so many red flags that I don't understand how someone would want to hold on to a relationship like that.
Right now I am content to let H have the OW1. She isn't going to make him happy long term. I feel confident because he has already left her behind at least twice and is not trying to make a commitment to her. She is his MLC affair and it will eventually go to the wayside. Besides, if she is as mean as they tell me she can be when she doesn't get her own way, H won't put up with that after he finishes. She may have control now...but she won't always.
As for the others, only time will tell. If OW 3 falls for H in his current state, then she deserves all the BS that will come with the relationship. Hope she takes off her blinders.
I have never ever tried to contact any of them. Never will either. Would love to, but that will waste too much of my energy.
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Thanks SongAndDance, that letter is helpful.
Those of you who have been around and paid attention to my story likely know that there have been two alienators in my life—and not #1 and #2. The first alienator in my life became one when I was ~12 and his name was Daddy. They met in secret for a couple of years—she spent weekends with him, telling her husband she was traveling for work—leaving him with their two young children; they must have been 6 and 9 at the beginning. She left her husband when she got pregnant—and he’s had a vasectomy. My Dad and she immediately found a house together to rent and married a 6-8 months later when I was 14, my brother (half) was 6, and my step brother and step sister were 8 and 11.
I had known her for a few years since she’d been with us on weekends, but her kids had only met us once years before on a zoo trip—right before the affair began.
Was she an MLCer? Looking back, she fits the age, she had an affair and her weekends away show a clear disregard for her own family. I also saw her as a mother once we were all together and what I saw would never lead me to say she was not a loving and wonderful mother to her kids and until recently (apparently I am now the enemy, but she may be not all there—her mom had Alzheimer's and I worry about her) she was decent to me as well; my brother is another story, but admittedly there were issues going on there.
Her husband was an awesome guy! He was kind to all of us—he met us and he got the vacation place in the settlement, but we all got to go there for vacations. Really, he allowed his ex-wife and the man she had an affair with to vacation there! I have been wishing I could talk to him now and ask what he was thinking and feeling during those years.
But this thread is about the alienator, my Dad.
My mom was his second wife. He met his first wife on a Monday and married her on Wednesday of the following week. Clearly, that was well-thought out…pardon my sarcasm! Amazing it lasted 5 years! I think he was about 20 when they married. According to him, she cheated first and that is when it was over. Notice that she cheated FIRST, of course meaning he followed suit by cheating. Obviously, that was mature! I think he was still going through his divorce when he met my mom. They took a little longer to marry, but I think it was less than a year and maybe less than 6 months. They were married ~5years and my mom initiated the divorce.
My Dad then went through women—including type phases, he had a red-head phase. He was constantly teasing about how all women loved him—this was cute teasing, but also showed the truth of some of his narcissistic tendencies.
I tell you this to give you an idea of him outside of his being Daddy. But as a Dad he was wonderful and I said narcissistic tendencies rather than narcissism because I do not in any way believe he was NPD, he had too much empathy for that—empathy that could sometimes be a problem in how he soaked on other people’s emotions and wore his heart on his sleeve. He was hilarious—being the funny-man was how he dealt with the pain in his life and he knew that because that was how he explained it. He was dedicated as a weekend father—when I was little and he found work an hour away and moved to Seattle, but traveled every weekend back-and-forth to get me. When my brother came along later (that was a brief marriage to a truly frightening woman—she may have shot her 2nd husband, my Dad was #4 or #5) he had to make that trip in two directions, spending hours on the road every Friday and Sunday.
My Dad’s marriage as an alienator lasted until he died 3 years ago—29 years. I would never call it a good marriage, but he might not agree. They were just not pleasant to be around as a couple—a lot of bickering. Visiting them (as an adult) was usually a depressing experience because of the tension I often felt lingering in the air.
Was my Dad an Affair Down? Was he delusional—were they both?
Well, he certainly had a trail of bad relationships—many as a result of his poor decisions. He had narcissistic tendencies and compensated his low self-esteem with cockiness.
But I am biased and knew my Dad and to me, he was still not. But he was vulnerable in relationships. The thing he always wanted most was to marry, when single he was always searching for the one with such a strong desire to cause him to make a lot of mistakes. He once told me that he wanted my stepmom to return to her first husband if both second spouses died first. He also told me that he told her to go back to him—when she first left. He said this to me maybe 20+ years later, so not something said to make him look better at the time, though perhaps said to make him look better to me as I was going through or just through Chuck’s MLC at the time.
Were they delusional?
She never seemed out of her mind or crazy with us. I mean, she had her moments and was never my favorite person, but other than with my brother, she was decent—though she tended toward being judgmental. I don’t think they were delusional in the sense I often think of alienators and MLCers being that way. They were deluded in the way so many are about marriage, divorce and kids. Seriously, they made my brother and me a part of their affair. This was nothing to me because I was just a kid. But what was especially deluded and ignorant was how they handled the end of her marriage and the public start of her relationship with my Dad with her children. I thought nothing of it then, I was just excited to have more kids in the family and one who was a girl only 3 years younger than me. But seriously people!!! Announce to your husband and children you want a divorce and that you will be moving in with some other guy—who you also say you were not dating prior to the break-up. Then follow through with the announcement and move in with him—my brother and I were there on weekends, though I did stay a few weeks that summer and babysit. It was wonderful to me because my step sister was a wonderful friend—thick as thieves might be a better description. She did not talk to me about anything being traumatized, having a hard time…though I know she was now. Perhaps it was even worse in the 80s when this happened—it was the height of the high divorce rate in America. People accepted divorce and that kids are resilient and you should be happy and with the one you love even if that is not the one to whom you are currently married and have children with… BLAH BLAH BLAH At least now we have peer-reviewed research proving the damage, back then people really thought 2nd marriages would be stronger because you would have learned from the first marriage. So they were delusional in the way our culture was delusional.
This is some of what I read in SongAndDance’s alienator’s letter: the belief that you should be with the one you (think you) love and happiness are first and kids will be fine… Delusional, sure. Is she a fruit basket? Maybe. Given only that letter, I know that others are much more looney, but then an alienator can become more fruity as time goes on and they and the MLCer become hooked to the hormones and the conflict and the idea that they have to continue because they destroyed everything to be together… I know that some alienator’s start off sounding nice and perhaps even logical, but they are wearing a mask which falls away or things just get worse and they fall down the rabbit hole. Maybe I am careful about thinking they are all mentally unstable lunatics right off the bat because of my Dad—from a relatively young age I figured out he as flawed (Grandpa was the one who hung the moon), but I adored him always.
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RCR, thank you for sharing this with us. It doesn’t sound like your dad ever found that elusive happiness. Did he ever attempt to return to your mother?
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Thanks RCR - you make some interesting points.
I should add that the bit of the letter I missed out was all about her not being able to have more children and intimate (I mean intimate) details of her condition. I didn't think it was relevant then or now hence my not including it.
I do believe however that she was a dedicated mother in her own way although the other anecdote I have about her is this. Before she and H hooked up she clearly had been talking to him about her adopted daughter who had been fostered by her for the previous 2 years. She was struggling and this young girl had many (understandable) issues. H suggested that she talk to me (remember this is before BD) and when I said " just love her through it - set rules and boundaries - be firm but kind and she will get it eventually" her reply stunned me. She said " I wish we'd never adopted her"
Talk about reeling in my seat.
On reflection I now think that OW was so needy and insecure that she walked into fostering in heroine/rescuer mentality. This then perpetuated into adoption - and she probably convinced the authorities that she was a good person because she believed she was. She had adopted her daughter two years before meeting H and in those 2 years her first marriage clearly disintegrated. Her needs couldn't be met and so she then tried my H.
This doesn't mean I can forget what she has done and forgiveness has been a battle but in letting it go I have been able to step back and see her for what and who she truly is and why I do not need to keep her in my life or my head.
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Wow Song for some reason you really rang some bells about a person I know.
On the outside she is a foster carer, with two of her own children, married a man 16 year's older than herself and on FB and Instagram she posts family pictures of their perfect life.
The reality is she met her husband when she was 16 at work, and he was 32. She spent 2 years obsessing over him, she said to me she had decided she wanted him, and would wait as long as it took. He of course was married. She chased after him, flung herself at him, made sure their lunches were together, and did everything she needed to do...and by the time she was 18 (he was 34) she was the OW. She ''allowed him some time'' - read cake eating- before she told him he had to choose...her or his wife of 12 years. Of course she was young and he was having ''the best sex of his life'' because...well she was 18 and giving him anything he wanted to win. ???
The details after this get sketchy because I wasn't there, and of course all she talks about is his ''crazy ex wife who wouldn't give up''. The reality is she stole a woman's husband, that never sat well with me, even years before my BD.
Later the two of them were going through rough times and decided since she was now in her 20s, and him coming up 40 it was time for a family. They spent years trying and couldn't get pregnant, so decided to register as foster parent's. She never did this in a good place I don't think. It was a more ''look at me, how kind I am, how nice I am''. She liked to take the babies around to show off to people, to get attention about how amazing she was. Eventually she did manage to get pregnant with not one but two children of her own, and also adopted one foster daughter.
It looked good from the outside, and I would have been so sad to see that as the ex wife.
But the reality is there was a lot of unhappiness, borderline abuse happening. Her and her husband were in constant conflict about the children that were theirs...and she was overly harsh to the foster daughter they ''adopted''. She berated her, was overly critical, and would do immature things like turn off the washing machine (while the teen was washing her own clothes). Eventually the foster daughter ran off, to be with her biological mother, and hasn't been heard from since. Her oldest biological son is a renowned bully at school, and her youngest...well...she has set that kid up for a lifetime of pain by the time he was 4 years old.
There is no confusion as to who ''wears the pants'' in the relationship. The husband who ran away from his first wife to be with her is more of an accessory than a husband. He is never consulted or asked his opinion, if he has one he is told he is wrong, even regarding important issues about their children's future. He quit his skilled job, to work minimum wage and is still there. He signs over his paycheck and is very lucky to get a meal he WANTS to eat, after all she is the boss, he puts up or shuts up. And one time his ring tone was ''my heart will go on'' :o which started world war 3 for 6 months because she was convinced he was having an affair. Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't, that part will never be revealed because that would destroy the facade.
The only reason I know all this is because I was around a lot, and she seemed to feel the need to vent to me (lots of people do). But to anyone else outside? They were perfectly happy, they were a success, age didn't matter....blah blah blah. ::)
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I think we should have a thread dedicated to posting the ridiculous ow letters. I have one as well. Just one as I emailed her the day I found out about the lying to tell her that Mr. Honesty would be back to work that day after our family vacation and she could have him lol.
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I wish I could get up my exchange with my Ow. I mean I’ll openly admit it was around 3-4 weeks after Bd so you can imagine the emotional mess I was in. But now I just laugh, her general tone was “why chase a man who clearly doesn’t want you”. She was practically begging me to leave him alone. But yuno if your so convinced he’s not in love with me. Why am I a threat? But now she would have to eat her words as she’s sticking her claws into a man who clearly doesn’t want her. Karma is good
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A timely reminder https://www.chumplady.com/2019/04/the-futility-of-confronting-affair-partners-2/
They feel no shame or empathy....either bc they are on a narcissistic roll or bc they are just not very good humans or bc they believe the lies your spouse has told them.
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A timely reminder https://www.chumplady.com/2019/04/the-futility-of-confronting-affair-partners-2/
They feel no shame or empathy....either bc they are on a narcissistic roll or bc they are just not very good humans or bc they believe the lies your spouse has told them.
Truth. I sometimes wonder how my H's OW can even look in the mirror knowing she's living with a married man whose wife has cancer. My guess is she just doesn't think about it at all.
***disclaimer: if you are still working through severe anger at the OP, don't look at what I'm about to say. It'll just make you much angrier.
But for anyone who wants to see just how OW rationalize what they're doing, check out the subreddit r/theotherwoman. (https://www.reddit.com/r/theotherwoman/)
It was literally created by an OW and only OWs are allowed to post there and they talk about being the OW and life with their MMs (married men). It's gross and delusional and so very, very sad. These women have no self-esteem and will settle for so little in life.
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Nas - I’ll look forward to reading that once H comes for the kids at 6pm!
My Ow reminds me a lot of my two year old. Currently she fake sneezes. So everyone laughs. She fake sneezes again. Everyone laughs. The more you laugh the more she does it. That’s one of the reasons I stopped almost a year ago even slyly winding Ow up because she was getting her two year old laugh so fake sneezes again. No laughter now so soon enough the fake sneezing has to stop
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My xh has been with this ow for almost three years. All I can continue to think is she must make him happy?! It still makes me sad actually. I have been obsessing lately. What if I didn't kick him out for lying. What if ..... ?? So many questions I know. People say it has nothing to do with us but it seriously must :(
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I could have written Tyk’s post word for word.
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People say it has nothing to do with us but it seriously must :(
No it's to do with what we represent -it's not about us personally. The LBS represents the norm, the boring, the conventional, the safety, the day to day, the way life is "supposed to be", the sense of nothing changing etc......
It really isn't to do with us unless there is something that has been bugging us about our own behaviour, habits even looks etc....
RCR does say that even though 99% of what the MLCer spews there is sometimes a teeny tiny modicum of truth in what they say.
So if the MLCer says that you are too controlling - this may mean that you tend to be a fixer or like things your way and you know that this is so then there is a modicum of truth in it.
If the MLCer says that you have let yourself go and in my case he said this and I knew I had - I wasn't over weight but I had stopped really taking care of my looks and I was stressed with work all of the time so too busy to take care of me. And so whilst it was absolutely no excuse for him to say it - there was a modicum of truth in it because I knew I wasn't taking care of myself.
So no it's not do with the LBS but what we represent and even though that logic on their behalf is bonkers - the new and exciting and different will always be an attractive pull.
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My xh has been with this ow for almost three years. All I can continue to think is she must make him happy?! It still makes me sad actually. I have been obsessing lately. What if I didn't kick him out for lying. What if ..... ?? So many questions I know. People say it has nothing to do with us but it seriously must :(
I could have written Tyk’s post word for word.
This is a completely normal feeling, but I know that you have read it is not about you, it's not personal, it's about them... BLAH BLAH BLAH. So instead of going over why that is first, let's instead go over why you feel it seriously must have something to do with you.
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My xh has been with this ow for almost three years. All I can continue to think is she must make him happy?! It still makes me sad actually. I have been obsessing lately. What if I didn't kick him out for lying. What if ..... ?? So many questions I know. People say it has nothing to do with us but it seriously must :(
I could have written Tyk’s post word for word.
This is a completely normal feeling, but I know that you have read it is not about you, it's not personal, it's about them... BLAH BLAH BLAH. So instead of going over why that is first, let's instead go over why you feel it seriously must have something to do with you.
I think in my case, it had everything to do with me. I was way too loving, caring, responsible, organized, attractive, fit, funny, successful and a great Mom. My H is now with the exact opposite of me. LOL (Not meaning to be braggy or vain at all, but this OW is really awful)
Thanks RCR and Song for the reminder though. We do get down on ourselves b/c that old saying, "It's not you, it's me" really means "It's not you, it's me....not liking you anymore." Hard not to take this personally. That is why I find reading the MLC articles every so often an absolute necessity.
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So no it's not do with the LBS but what we represent and even though that logic on their behalf is bonkers - the new and exciting and different will always be an attractive pull.
I think that's why around the 3, 4 year mark, we start to fall back to thinking they just fell out of love.
New and exciting has an attractive pull, but a several-years-old relationship in which they have been living day to day life with the OP is not shiny and new anymore.
In my case, my H can't even bring himself to reach out to say "Hey, how are you feeling?" He can't even say the word cancer. He has only twice in the two years I've been in treatment said "how is your health?"
He did reach out when both my mother and father died in February, but only to say his mother had told him about it and he told me to "Hang in there." Real heartfelt. ::)
The OW in my case doesn't appear to be crazy. She was someone he knew from high school and I guess they dated for about 3 weeks one summer. She has 3 kids, all teenagers. One must be in college now.
She lived 1100 miles away with her executive husband who wrote glowing praise of her all over Facebook. They lived in a gorgeous home on a golf course and attended community galas and took trips all over. (Yeah, of course I looked at both her and her H's Facebook pages when I first found out about her.)
The affair started over Facebook sometime mid-2014. I don't know when it first became physical because there's so many lies and she may or may not have flown up here to see him once, or they may have just done the "sexting" thing for a while. BD was March 2015, he moved out July 2015 and since then he's been as distant as a complete stranger. He moved the 1100 miles to her city in early June 2016. Her divorce was final that week. He had a tiny apartment for himself but I'm pretty sure it was less than 3 months before he moved in with her.
So he's essentially lived with her for almost 3 years now. I've spent 2 of those years fighting advanced cancer and he's removed himself more and more to the point where now I don't even know his email address or phone number.
My gut instinct is the OW and the new life are what he wants and he's become a vanisher because he feels tremendous guilt because my life has seen so much illness and death all while he's living a life that fits him better.
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Kit, I need that attitude but I don't know that this ow is awful. I know nothing about her. Found her pic once online eight after bd. She can't be that bad if he is still with her.
I guess I feel it is about me BC I am still here and he is still there. I mean, I was a great wife and mother. There could 've been more intimacy but that takes two and quite frankly I was tired from doing absolutely everything and running my business. Hindsight is 20/20 but there are many things that i would change if given the opportunity. But I never was.
He was always chasing the elusive passion. I am pretty sure he thinks passion lives every day. But he isn't passionate about anything and never really put forth an effort for that.
Now I'm.just rambling. I'm just in a rut after all this time where I thought I was fine. Obviously not.
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I think my H’s OW was as textbook as they come, Half his age, desperate, clingy, clueless about who he was but determined to ride a rainbow sparkly unicorn across the sky for luv. Plenty of weirdness that she looks a bit like I did at that age (same as when H and I met). I also highly suspect bpd. It’s over now, took months for him to finish with her, she assaulted him at the end requiring a dozen stitches but he still claims the taxi driver did it. I try not to think about her, let karma have her, but not always successful with this. Am very grateful she’s not in my face.
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My xh has been with this ow for almost three years. All I can continue to think is she must make him happy?! It still makes me sad actually. I have been obsessing lately. What if I didn't kick him out for lying. What if ..... ?? So many questions I know. People say it has nothing to do with us but it seriously must :(
I could have written Tyk’s post word for word.
This is a completely normal feeling, but I know that you have read it is not about you, it's not personal, it's about them... BLAH BLAH BLAH. So instead of going over why that is first, let's instead go over why you feel it seriously must have something to do with you.
My h is courteous to me, financially responsible, present for our boys as much as possible, and has always said he loves me, without expressly wanting also to return (except for a brief t&g last summer). His life now is quite similar to what it was before he left. The boys have made it clear to him that they do not want a relationship with the ow at all, and he respects them in this.
The ow is a similar age, good career, and although I have lots of anecdotes that indicate what an odious human being she is, she is well behaved, and has never attempted to engage with me directly.
Even though they are in my neighborhood, I have become quite good at preserving my boundaries and making sure the dysfunction doesn't come over to my side of the street.
Several months ago however, I stumbled into a situation where I was in a position to observe the two of them, undetected. I did not plan it, truly it just happened.
So, I did.
I watched my h and the ow for about half an hour. They were talking, joking, affectionate...she was telling him some story and he was smiling and engaged. In every way they were the picture of a stable, happy and loving couple - not for facebook, not for anyone - but just for each other. They had been together about 2.5 years at that point.
The only feeling I can describe having is a numbness, like a dentist had shot Novocaine right into my chest. No pain, just a buzzing sort of sensation.
Everything my h had said to me in the previous months and years, about being confused, about wanting to end it with her, etc. was a lie - not an mlc lie, a true lie - I knew it for certain in that half hour.
As I watched them, I realized that I was not seeing some teenage drama filled romance. My h has not regressed into some damaged part of his childhood.
What I saw was my own marriage, or what looked exactly like the marriage that I thought I had had, a couple of years before BD.
I was replaced. That's all.
That numbness has not really gone away, and it liberates me in many ways.
Grief still lingers, but I am taking good care of myself, and there are more good days than bad.
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OW in my situation does completely fit the criteria for ‘affair down’- ticks every box. I wrote on previous thread that it really confirms to me that MLCer is the opposite to the man I married and he is now attracted to the complete opposite. I have not had much insight from him- a couple of brief conversations after BD. So the info I have is my research into her when I first found out (she was his employee), what the girls tell me and from friends who seen things on social media as well as what I read from the 70+ messages I found when I discovered the affair.
I guess I should be thankful that it’s pretty obvious to everyone apart from H what her intentions are and that she’s a complete AD. I guess I should also be grateful (as my BF often says) that at least she isn’t younger,better looking, more successful and has nothing to offer. BUT this knowledge doesn’t make it any easier- although the opposite may have made it worse- if that makes sense 🤨?
OW has tried to contact me in the past (I had a missed call from her) and H suggested we even go for coffee at one point- yeah not happening! She isn’t good to our children and from what I’ve recently seen on social media- she is vile, vulgar, sexually inappropriate, no morals and values, hideous looking and desperate and her grown up girls are just as bad- apologise for the rant and focus on OW- but she really really is. So it baffles me that H is with this kind of woman who I thought he would never have looked at and scary that he’s so deluded that he doesn’t see any of these things!
What I struggle with the most:
- My children are exposed to her and her family. They are exposed to this kind of parenting (she smokes with her children and seems to encourage their sexually promiscuous behaviour and a whole lot more). I’m sorry if I come across as self righteous or judgemental when I say this- but I did not bring my children into this world for them to exposed to this and me and H brought them up very differently- culturally, morally and in every other way that is the opposite to this.
- My children are having to stay at OW’s (they are back today after being there since last Monday- the longest time so far 😔). They are in an environment where they not prioritised, where they have no attention from their dad and where they have to witness OW’s children being given more attention and priority than they are. Their needs are being ignored! This fills me with rage and something I don’t think I can ever forgive. However much I damage control and try to counteract what is happening- I don’t have a bandaid big enough to cover the wound this will leave on them at such a young age and important developmental stage for them. They went from being the centre of our universe and having a doting mum and dad to this. Despite this I have never stopped them from seeing their dad and am constantly conflicted about this. Most of the time I think it’s better they still see him in some capacity rather than not at all. But then wonder if being exposed to constant rejection is more damaging. I guess I just try and be a soft landing and make up for it when they are with me so when they are older and can make their own decisions they can never say that I denied them of a relationship with their father. The thing is- if I thought he had the ability to access his love for his children and that he was fighting for them because of this love- I would feel more reassured and however much I missed them I would be ok if they were happy. But what I see is that they are being used as pawns or like objects to hurt me. He would rather have them with him to ignore and reject, just to deny me of them. So of course he is trying to deny them of being surrounded by me and my family who will completely and utterly make them the centre of our universe while he is incapable. This is all also to hold on to the mask in front of others of being the doting father- what he used to be.
- Now OW is relevant in all of this because she is actively encouraging this (she resents my children) and is threatened by them so won’t allow H to be alone with them and expects him to prioritise her children over his own. As a mother herself that is unforgivable. My children are polite and loving and are complete victims in this. She is a big part of the reason he monsters so badly to me. However yes she is a symptom and it’s is 100% H’s fault for doing this to his own children. But it’s pretty hard not to focus on OW when H is making her the complete focus. He has always rubbed her in my face and everyone else’s. There is no admission from him that she isn’t all that important because he is utterly convinced from his actions that she is the one for him. H used to be respectable with good family values and morals- especially with his family. But he is actually humiliating them by bringing OW (who is completely unacceptable culturally) into their home (where our wedding pic is still on the wall 🤨) and I think recently even allowing her to sleep in their house and in our bed at their home. Now it is in laws fault for allowing this but I truly believe they think they will lose their son and access to grandchildren if they don’t. Same reason for why they stopped contact with me. This is killing his parents esp his mum who he also seems to have no empathy for.
- So although OW is just a symptom and although she is such an obvious AD that most people just don’t see lasting for long- she’s a pretty hard symptom to ignore (I do ignore her existence mostly in RL) and I am glad I made no contact with her at the beginning although I really don’t blame anyone who did- I came very close to it many times. When I FaceTime my girls to say goodnight she makes sure I can see her in the background. So no matter how much I try and get away from H and OW they are always there to haunt and taunt me. Their relationship seems to feed off this.
I really really want to get to a place where I am confident that he really doesn’t love her and that she’s insignificant. But currently with legal battles on going and the obvious way in which she is sooo financially motivated I’m a long way off. 20 months after BD I am bitter that this woman has taken my children’s financial security and future away and is the part of the bomb that has blown apart our family. And I am bitter that right now it looks like she will win either way even if H walks away one day- as it’s very clear that she is aware he is having a crisis and is trying to secure herself as much as she can by somehow convincing him to spend all his money on extending her house.
Sorry for the long post- but OW is the most painful part of his MLC. And I do feel better for being able to share my feelings about her without feeling ashamed or some how inadequate for doing so. It’s part of the process for me and although at times I agree the focus isn’t always helpful- sometimes sharing it with people who understand is helpful and reassuring to me. Although I come here to rant- I am moving forward with my life and really don’t think it’s affecting that. If however I’m still saying the same things much further down the line- when my children are grown and no longer need my protection than yes am stuck.
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My h has not regressed into some damaged part of his childhood.
What I saw was my own marriage, or what looked exactly like the marriage that I thought I had had, a couple of years before BD.
I was replaced. That's all.
This is my biggest fear. It paralyses me. If this is the reality in my case I feel like there would be no hope of reconciliation. And that, at the stage I am in right now, makes me feel totally panicked and like my life is over. It doesn’t matter that I know that isn’t the case. It FEELS that way. Such profound pain. My only comfort is the vets who say ‘you won’t always feel this way’. I guess I just need to hang on for now. I’m sick of feeling this way but can’t climb out of it at the moment. Tired of constantly being miserable and feeling hopeless. Being sick and tired of feeling a certain way doesn’t seem to be enough to help me to work out how to NOT feel that way.
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I have a question and on my own thread I’ll go into more detail regarding it. I know it’s not al for Ow to stalk social media and my personal Instagram is public as I use it for business purposes and when I was private it REALLY hindered my business. So I keep it open but I’m just selective about what I post. But as I have people who I know who follow Ow on social media due to going to university with her. But I get sent LOTS of Ow posts where she is basically morphing into me. Everything she was against at the start. She is now into. Even going as far as to make a special trip to buy the fake tan I advertised and reviews on my Instagram AND even copied the exact picture I uploaded!! Is this normal? I’ve not been “biting” to her on social media but I guess I would like yo know if this is just me or if it’s common?
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Sach I don’t think any OW is “normal,” at least by our standards. That she is copying you shows how she envy’s not only your life, but your obvious superior role in Hs life. Many of these OW are more trying to get our (LBS) entire lives, not just the man. If you can call him that.
Ever—your pain is palpable and I do feel what you said. We’ve all been there yes. And sometimes it still creeps in. But yes, it gets better. We’re you replaced? Yes, but I believe it is temporary. That he met her in a pub and now sees her his soulmate tells me any old thing would have done in that situation. He’s in crisis and cannot be alone.
Steel—I see how you would think that bc everything appears so normal. My H is the same way. All seems perfectly happy. Yes he spoke with her and Smiled—truth is they are a couple now. A highly dysfunctional one. The way this “R” started is hardly sustainable. And that they are well behaved in public and act all couple-y doesn’t erase the fact that the R is built on lies and deceit. I’ve seen pics of my H and his OW at events. They look like a couple. Happy, enjoying their evening out. Day later he’s texting me that he hasn’t been happy in years and cries every day.
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If it helps H's OW had long hair like me. Liked all the things I liked and did all the hobbies that I do. Her FB showed that she read most of the books or liked the films I liked. She was a busy woman holding down a well paid job etc....
She is 10 yrs younger. Apart from the fact that she was an OW - I can find little alternative reason as to why H chose her other than she made him feel "good" and he even said " OW reminds me of how you used to be"
So WTF? was my eventual response. What was it about her that made her so compelling?
She was needy and I wasn't so H to the rescue.
She listened and soothed his "Poor me" and I would say " Sorry about that - and what are you going to do about it?"
3.5 yrs on - she's gone!
There are a whole host of "reasons" why the OP is with your MLCer. What's important to remember is that she/he is a willing pawn in your MLCer's behaviour and it really is not a genuine criticism of you or your marriage.
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What Steel said about seeing them together when they were alone and didn’t know anyone was watching really struck me. I think we all want to believe that when no one is around they’re fighting or treating each other badly. That’s just not logical though. They do enjoy each other’s company a lot, if not most of the time. Otherwise they couldn’t last for years and years.
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I think, more than what draws them to the OW, what would really interest me is what ultimately turns them away from the OW. I would absolutely love to hear MLCers say what it was that made them look at the OW and think “this isn’t what I want.”
Of course we’ll probably never get that information. 👎🏻
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Well at the start Ow was polar opposite to me. When I first started reading that they usually go after a colleague, I had in my head who H would go for. It wasn’t Ow as she was so far off his type. Whereas now she’s turning herself into his type.
I used to annoy me getting sent her posts whereas now I just laugh at them but then I also know this helps me build a character of her so I have more to go off if H ever says he wants her to meet my kids. I can give him exhibits a b c d etc.
I know they argue quite a bit because in my case, you would believe Ow was 10. She uploaded the “men ain’t sh!t” quotes every other day when they argue and when I see him. If they have argued I can tell by his mood. I know they don’t always argue. But they do argue a fair bit. In my case, whilst they have been together over a year. The actual amount of time that they spend in each other’s company is only a few hours per week. As they both work full time and H spends every other day with the kids! So in some respects. It’s still new.
But it would be interesting to get a MLCers POV
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I think, more than what draws them to the OW, what would really interest me is what ultimately turns them away from the OW. I would absolutely love to hear MLCers say what it was that made them look at the OW and think “this isn’t what I want.”
Of course we’ll probably never get that information. 👎🏻
Our marriage and I did not make my H emotionally depart and start A.
(I’m not going to discuss the proof of it here.)
I think the same reasoning might be true when he severed his R with OW and started to turn toward me and the kids.
I’m not sure if I shared this back in January after our monumental R talk.
He volunteered to me: ‘After I severed the affair relationship, she kept contacting me but I told her that I love my wife and I want to be 100% faithful to her.’
So, his exit from the affair had very little to do with her but everything to do with him. His healing and journey toward self actualization took him to a place where he wanted to recommit himself to me and our marriage.
I’m talking about my situation only.
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what ultimately turns them away from the OW. I would absolutely love to hear MLCers say what it was that made them look at the OW and think “this isn’t what I want.”
My H told me the attraction at first was the "Unicorn Land of Escape", but once the newness started to wear off and living two lives became exhausting, the relationship started to wear thin. He also said the OW was becoming needy and started to demand more of his time. I asked him once if he couldn't or wouldn't give her more time and he said "both". He didn't want to give her more time and was glad she was married,,,
He HATES needy women and said she wasn't that way in the beginning but I think he was afraid she was going to do something to try and get in touch with me. Something he wasn't afraid of at the start of the affair.
He said the affair had run its course but he didn't know how to get his butt out of a bad situation he created. I think he planned to quit his job and then just ghost her, but I caught him and he had to end it before he left his old job.
He also said she was in debt up to her eyeballs and was "messy". ;D He HATES messy and knows that I am NOT.
Eventually he realized he didn't want to take all that on. Besides, MLCer's want it to be all about them and now it was going to be all about his AP. Now that she's history, he is dealing with the other aspects of MLC instead of running away and escaping.
Whether or not we stay together is still up in the air but I am living MY life as I see fit. If he wants to join in the fun so be it. If he wants to wallow in his MLC, that's his choice. Not my circus, not my monkees.
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So, his exit from the affair had very little to do with her but everything to do with him. His healing and journey toward self actualization took him to a place where he wanted to recommit himself to me and our marriage.
I’m talking about my situation only.
Makes sense, Acorn.
Going into it was about what was in his head and who he was then...as little to do with ow as with you.
Leaving it would work the same way.
Of course some may stay in it bc they stay stuck, some can see no way out or back probably, some may feel obligated to ow particularly if they have remarried or had a child, some eventually find another magic fix of some kind. And some I guess may feel that they are no longer the same person and are happy with the choices they have made even if they feel regret or even remorse about how they did it.
But it is still all about what is in their head isn't it? It was never about us and will never be unless, as in your case, they decide that they want a choice which involves us in their life. And then we get a choice too of course depending what is in OUR heads and how we have changed.
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And then we get a choice too of course depending what is in OUR heads and how we have changed.
Oh so true. I thought for the longest time that MLC only changed the person going through it. I was wrong. I have changed sooooo much because of my H's MLC and for the better. Though it's hurt and been bumpy along the way, I am starting to feel the strength I never knew I had in me.
It's very liberating and I know I make the choices for ME & MY LIFE now. They do not revolve around him and his MLC.
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I've never been convinced my H is in MLC.
Today, I see it as......if he isn't home, it means he doesn't want to be here. End of story. OW or no OW. It isn't about OW.
And what that has taught me is that I don't want to be with someone who doesn't want me.
I still love and care for my H. And I also know that he has to find his own way.
It took me 4 years to figure that out... ::)
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I think, more than what draws them to the OW, what would really interest me is what ultimately turns them away from the OW. I would absolutely love to hear MLCers say what it was that made them look at the OW and think “this isn’t what I want.”
Of course we’ll probably never get that information. 👎🏻
You know how when the light switches on in a dark room the cockroaches scatter? Well I turned the light on....
I knew, the kids knew, his family knew, our friends knew....
He has said that actually the "relationship" part of the affair was over long before....but she was his office manager and he was "stuck" with her. He couldn't fire her. He couldn't tell me. He couldn't end it with her. So he felt stuck....
She was really just enjoying all the power at work and all the money. She had pushed her salary to the limit, she was using our company credit card to fill her gas tank, buy her groceries, buy clothing as "uniform expense", etc... to the tune of $1,000 to $2,000 a month!
But when I found out and I filed for divorce he took his lawyer's advice to have ZERO conversation with her.....strictly business....and he told her that. She was PISSY but he said he didn't care. He saw the pain he had caused to our children and me....and it had to stop and he had to try to navigate the divorce to do the least amount of excess damage, he had to end that part of it. And he did.....
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Well kids came back today after over a week with their dad and OW. They shared that the worst part of it was that he took OW to his parents with them & her daughter & she stayed at their house for the first time. So his family obviously don’t have the strength to say no but still have our wedding pic on the wall & a pic of me & him with D10 when she was a baby (although it’s come down from top of shelf to bottom). They said OW & her D9 were acting show offy and that as soon as they got in car to come back OW said I’m desperate for a cigarette & pint of beer and he said she should have gone in garden for one. Kids said they were shocked as that would have been completely inappropriate in their family & the fact that he would even suggest it means “daddy’s gone mad”.
I also had a lightbulb moment hearing that as I’m starting to see that this all seems to be a complete rebellion against his parents & nothing to do with me. Out of respect I would rarely even have a drink in front of them (not culturally appropriate) & H hated me even having a social cigarette every 6 months with a drink. I never dreamt of doing it front of him because he hated it so much. In fact the one cigarette every 6 months or so caused such a problem when we first got married as he said I was his wife and he didn’t like me doing something that affected my health.
So it really is land of opposites in my case.
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What Steel said about seeing them together when they were alone and didn’t know anyone was watching really struck me. I think we all want to believe that when no one is around they’re fighting or treating each other badly. That’s just not logical though. They do enjoy each other’s company a lot, if not most of the time. Otherwise they couldn’t last for years and years.
Of course it is perfectly logical. Lots of people stay in unhappy, abusive relationships. Especially young, impressionable OWs who don't know any better. My H wanted an OW specifically so he would have someone to put up with his "nastiness". Where he got the idea he was "nasty" I have no idea but it's abundantly clear that at some level he thought he would protect me from the bad side of himself by taking it out on someone else. Also, someone he could control tightly, unlike me. And indeed he found someone who is mostly but not entirely compliant. Oh and he wanted someone to be like his mother. Yes, he told her that, not sure she is exactly like her though but that's what he wanted.
I wouldn't say that I would use the word "enjoy" but it is what he wanted, for reasons that are clearly related to FOO issues. The irony of it all was that our marriage represented an escape from the control of his family and OW at several levels represents a return to his family's control, even though he would never admit that to himself.
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A MLCer and the alienator may look happy and fine in public early on, but:
1) the more time goes by, the less happy they will be
2) just because they look fine and happy in public it does not mean it is the same behind close doors.
I only saw Mr J and OW1 once, by chance, not that long after BD, they seemed a normal couple. They never lived together, only saw each other on weekends. They didn't last long in the open. Mr J and OW2 spend at least 10 years together. Aside from once, early 2018, also by chance, I never saw them in person. Early 2018 when I saw them, he was djing, she was outside the venue, talking with SIL. No one who didn't knew then would be able to say they were a couple.
I saw several photos of them over the years. The happy "in-love" couple gave place to a totally bored couple. At a point, there were no more photos of the two of them. No one can spend 10 years together and it always fun and cool.
The longer a MLCer and alienator spend together, the more it is going to look like any other relationship, arguments and bad times included.
Early on it is still a fantasy, unfatuation can last up to 36-48 months, regardless of the type of relationship.
The MLCer did not got involved with OW/OM because of the marriage or the LBS. They will most likely not break with the alienator because of the marriage/LBS. Mr J and OW1 broke because of their own issues. Mr J and OW2 separated at a point last year. It is unclear if they are, or aren't, back together.
I can tell you being the dj's girlfriend is boring. You either stay home, be out with your friends, or have to spend hours in the club or bar he is djing at. That was one of the reasons OW1 and Mr J broke. They only saw each other on weekend, he was always busy djing on weekends. OW2 had to endure 10 years of being the dj's girlfriend. She is a much better person than I am when it come to it. I endured a few months or Mr nightclub when he was still living home, not nice at all. I would never endure 10 years of that stuff.
On top of the djing, is having a man who comes home in the middle of the night, or in the morning, drunk and reeking of cigaratte smoke. It is having a man that pretty much every time you go on holidays he will have to go djing, or come back to dj, or goes clubbing, or spends hours in records shops. Thanks, but no thanks, been there (for a few months), done that, got the t-shirt.
Which begs the question, since Mr J was not willing to give up the djing, the real serious alienator, why did I not wanted to divorce and though it was a good idea to "safe" the marriage"? I was being stupid. And, of course, like all of us, in shock. I would had broke with him/divorce him if he had carried on the djing lifestyle even if he he hadn't left and there was no OW.
Who are Mr J's OWs. Both highly educated, one has a PhD the other a masters, both speeak 4/5 languages, cultered, one is a teacher (OW1) the other an agro research scientist (OW2). No visible issue with them, they look like normal women. They were both well like my Mr J's family, our friends that meet them and all his new friends. They were both early 30's by then, now in their 40's.
None of them is prettier or more interesting than I am. OW1 is one of the most boring, uninteresting people I know. OW2 is more interesting, and, as I said in another thread, if she was not OW2 I and her my get along very well.
OW1 knew he was married, she was part of our wide cultural circle, OW2 did not. OW1, by her own words to him, was dead jealous of me. Scared also. But their love was so great she broke all her values to be involved with him, and dare he not back off. He told her he too had to broke all his values to be with her.
OW2 come to the rescue of the broken hearted dj she had started talk to when he and OW1, that for OW2 was his girlfriend, broke. She is the knitness in shining armour. She got in his lawyer, choose the the fancy flat they live in, etc.
None of that excuses him. He was the married on. The one who was chatting women, first beyond my back, then beyond OW1's back. Nothing ugly, just how depressed/down he was, talks about his dj sets, art. It was all silly, teenager like.
If you want to have some idea of how absurd those talks can be, this is an old thread with Mr J's correspondence to OW1, and a little to OW2, The stuff to OW1 is mostly from before he left, to OW2 after he left, but some of it while OW1 was still in the picture.
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1694.0 - The Love Correspondence Between a Husband and OW an Insight
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My xh's OW is the stereotypical one. An employee, much younger, much lower socioeconomic status, manipulative (suicide threats) et cetera. She's also an expat chaser. It's funny because I remember right after we divorced he spoke of her, not by name or pronoun or anything, but said he felt like he had been chased and he knew it was because of his citizenship status. Um, well you must've liked the chasing ::). Destroyed his whole life for it. He also told his SIL that he wasn't sure about her because she's the flirty kind. So you're already worried she's a cheater like you lol. Well she did have a "fiance" when she got with him, so I'd think that'd be pretty obvious and hypocritical coming from him. At one point he wasn't even sure she wasn't married, so she had to initiate a conversation with her "fiance" talking about their dream wedding. She took screenshots and sent them to xh. Y'all see these people are bat**** crazy!
I don't engage with her in any way and the only time I've spoken to her other than when we first met (before the affair I ASSUME) was when she tried to add me to FB using a false name earlier this year. No idea why she cares what I do anyway. Xh and I are divorced and live far from each other. I guess his main FB account still bothers her. He still has a picture of us and his rt status listed as married. All his family and friends are on it. He made a new one just to talk to her and eventually sent me a friend request from it when I ignored him but she's not on either one. ;D ;D ;D I just find that hilarious.
I really don't see them lasting if they do get married (may already be) because they're both so dramatic, manipulative and compulsive liars. At least that's what I've seen from their texts. No idea how they are together in real life. I know he can never bring her to live in his family's home as long as his father is alive. He'd have to bring her here and again, I know his father will not visit if she's in the house. So I don't know what will happen with them. I wanna say they'll fizzle out, but he just finally closed his business in his home country (a big catalyst for the MLC) and he texted me furiously to rant and rave about how his father was so happy he closed it, blahblahblah. So I definitely see continued acting out in his future.
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I think a lot of MLC affairs are a lot like vampires. They are fine as long as they are hidden from real life and the light of day. Once exposed to the sun and out in the open, they become reality and eventually explode and burn like a vampire does in daylight.
The OW is just as screwed up as the MLCer. Why else would a moral, decent, woman with integrity get involved with a married man? They wouldn't. Someone once told me that "God does not give you someone else's husband. Satan does."
Nuff said. ;)
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I think a lot of MLC affairs are a lot like vampires. They are fine as long as they are hidden from real life and the light of day. Once exposed to the sun and out in the open, they become reality and eventually explode and burn like a vampire does in daylight.
Not really, since many MLCer and alienator relationships last many, may years. In fact, as soon as they are out of the darkness and they start living together it is no longer and affair, it is a relationship. There is no shortage of LBS on HS whose MLCer has been with the alienator for many years. It is rare that a MLC affair tends to explode, more like it goes on and on and on. And if it explodes, it may be a many years down the road.
No one gives anyone's else husband or wife, the husband or wife was willing to get involved with someone else. Lets keep in mind that if our spouse did not wanted to be involved with someone else they wound't be. The only reason there is OW/OM is because our spouse allowed him/herself to be involved with another person.
Penelope, your husband and OW, may last if they marry. Many MLCers love drama. It makes them feel wanted, important and that they matter. Otherwise, why would anyone bother to have drama? I am not saying they are going to last, just that they may and for not to base the probability in the fact that there is drama. Drama is what often fuels affairs, MLC or not.
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Everything that’s the biggest mistake I made when I confronted her s few weeks after BD. I just naturally assumed she was this woman that had been duped. She had no idea about me and the kids. Had no idea that just over a month ago he was talking weddings to me and sleeping in my bed telling me he loved me. My brain clearly forgot how she “liked” my photos of him on Facebook from family days and we chatted on comments on his social media.
I remember thinking “well if I was her and I got this message I would be mortified and I would never speak to the man again” *send* except obviously were not actually dealing with normal women here are we.
I’m not sure an affair developed before I kicked him out. Our case was a bit different as we argued. I kicked him out cos I was bored of his mooong about and I thought he would snap out of it. However, this is a guy she knew was only weeks ago living as a happy family. This was a man who even if he didn’t start with her till after. He still had a family. He still wasn’t well himself as he slept in a f*cking car park instead of admitting to his mum WHO LIVES NEXT DOOR. No no. They aren’t normal women so we can’t treat them as they are.
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From one of Treasur's posts: "A timely reminder https://www.chumplady.com/2019/04/the-futility-of-confronting-affair-partners-2/"
Do not confront the OW/OM. Nothing good will come of it.
You case is indeed a little different, sacha. You kicked your husband out, you think OW only come when he was on his own. But he remains responsible for the affair, not OW. He may had prefered a new woman is his life than live with his mum. MLCers hardly ever snap out of it if they are kicked out including those who already are involved in an affair while living home. In that they are different from ordinary cheaters. As a general rule, ordinary cheaters don't want to lose the marriage, MLCers couldn't care less about losing the mariage or the LBS. Or they may want both = major cake eating. MLCers are not willing to do the work. At least not until Replay ends.
They aren’t normal women so we can’t treat them as they are.
The truth is OW can be pretty much anyone. Same for OM. A regular cheater or a MLCer. The OW is not some special, weird person. There are people on HS whose marriage to the MLCer start with cheating. There are people on HS who have had affairs, be it MLC, for those LBS whose crisis involved an alienator, or non MLC. It is a myth OW is someone very different.
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No one gives anyone's else husband or wife, the husband or wife was willing to get involved with someone else. Lets keep in mind that if our spouse did not wanted to be involved with someone else they wound't be. The only reason there is OW/OM is because our spouse allowed him/herself to be involved with another person.
True, but we all know someone going through MLC isn't for the most part, thinking straight. My H, the loving, caring, loyal & faithful man I married is NOT the man he is right now. Yes he chose to screw another woman, but the man I married 25 yrs ago would rather chew off his leg than be a cheater.
They know what they are doing is wrong, but the state of mind they are in justifies their every move. I remember when I went through my midlife transition (I didn't have an affair, but had my own issues) I look back at it now and can't believe I actually thought that some of the things I said and did made sense when in fact I was an idiot.
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No one having an affair is thinking straight. The thrill, at least while it is all in the darkness, is too high to allow people to think straight. That tends to apply both to the married as well as the unmarried person. Or two married people, if the affair is between married people.
Until the infatuation wears off, the chemicals are going to leave people in a wrong frame of mind. Affair recovery videos that can be found on YouTube are very good at explaining affairs, cheater frame of mind, etc.
They are mostly for normal affairs, but the main principles, excuses, blame and why the cheater has troubles facing what they did is similar, if not the same. MLC affairs bring with them other layers because MLCers are even more stupid than a normal cheater. Affair recovery also has a video about the MLC affair.
The spouses on non-MLC cheaters also never thought their decent spouse was going to have an affair. In fact, the cheater, MLC or not, also didn't thought they were ever going to have an affair. Exceptions being players. Serial cheaters whose cheating comes from sex addiction are addictis and that is another, very complicated, matter.
Even if, in their simples form, affair are addiction, the exception being a single one night stand. But those who only cheat once, or only cheat while in MLC, do not suffer from the sex addiction sort of addiction. In any case, the addiction is not to a person or sex, but to the chemicals.
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Wow such a great thread, though more I read it the more confused I'm about if my XW is or ever was in MLC after all :o
It's been very, very obvious, none of my friends that have followed my journey here never doubted it wasn't.
BUT...
It looks like OM just doesn't fit in script. If I got it right, they didn't have relationship before she filed and we separated, immediately after that yes but it was just a bit too logical move to be part of the MLC script to me. There was the other OM, right before divorce and THAT was very much by MLCer's playbook, lasted no more than 2 months, then she left him, it was probably just EA level though they were at same dancing class so they danced together which doesn't make it PA though. THAT guy fitted in the script, he was 10 years older than her, the little I knew about him was that he probably was very different from me in many ways, like the person XW wouldn't have any interest in before (assumed) MLC.
But now this guy... I don't see him opposite of me, how I see him is he has a lot of alike with me, even his profession, we are colleagues and even work in same organization. He is only year older than me. I don't believe his personal conducts differ from mine, not much anyway. In fact I see a lot of ME in him tbh.
So did she choose OM who was much like me but believes doesn't have my bad sides?? She felt I was controlling (never before MLC started but ever since) and suffocated her etc. I bet this guy doesn't etc... She has always seeked security, assurity from her man, that's the reason she probably picked me in first place, after just divorced from her 1st husband. Now she seemed to have reiterated it, jumped from R to R, immediately. Her primary issues are safety related, that's for sure.
Maybe this is just her LIFE SCRIPT in which I played only a part in the cycle and what I thought was MLC, actually wasn't.
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Just because your XW had a Ow after D doesn’t mean it wasn’t/isn’t MLC. From what I can gather it is more of a case of “being there” he could have been there and willing and he was chosen. It’s a funny old world isn’t it ha!
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Just because your XW had a Ow after D doesn’t mean it wasn’t/isn’t MLC. From what I can gather it is more of a case of “being there” he could have been there and willing and he was chosen. It’s a funny old world isn’t it ha!
I agree myself when I think about it, it's just a thought that sometimes bugs me. She really played by the MLC playbook and it probably doesn't matter if it was this OM or OM before him, she left that guy only 1-2 months before she filed so...
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My wife is even having weirder dynamics. She is the OW in her affair. The man she is seeing which I have never net or seen, is a married man. She has been quoted as saying "he is just like Father5 his wife just fell out of love with him" !
They live 2500 miles apart which is good and bad. Good I don't have to see them out together etc. Bad because they don't see each other enough to have the infatuation where off !
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From what I know that can be the case father and it’s not uncommon for two MLCers to join together.
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I think a lot of MLC affairs are a lot like vampires. They are fine as long as they are hidden from real life and the light of day. Once exposed to the sun and out in the open, they become reality and eventually explode and burn like a vampire does in daylight.
Not really, since many MLCer and alienator relationships last many, may years. In fact, as soon as they are out of the darkness and they start living together it is no longer and affair, it is a relationship. There is no shortage of LBS on HS whose MLCer has been with the alienator for many years. It is rare that a MLC affair tends to explode, more like it goes on and on and on. And if it explodes, it may be a many years down the road.
No one gives anyone's else husband or wife, the husband or wife was willing to get involved with someone else. Lets keep in mind that if our spouse did not wanted to be involved with someone else they wound't be. The only reason there is OW/OM is because our spouse allowed him/herself to be involved with another person.
Penelope, your husband and OW, may last if they marry. Many MLCers love drama. It makes them feel wanted, important and that they matter. Otherwise, why would anyone bother to have drama? I am not saying they are going to last, just that they may and for not to base the probability in the fact that there is drama. Drama is what often fuels affairs, MLC or not.
Yeah, they do seem to love it. I remember when I realized that, I was so disgusted. Like who is this grown man playing these games?? Having his SIL message me when he and I were not on speaking terms. Knowing that I knew she assisted him in his affair. Wtf? All I can do is laugh because it's so ridiculous. Makes me wonder if he had an affar with the SIL too. They're like best buddies now. He texted her as much as OW. Such a weird relationship!!
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There's a young attorney in my office--she's about 37, never married. A bit of a train wreck. Boasts of her sexual exploits on the regular. Misses work b/c of hangovers. The main managing partner at our HQ has brought her up to me a few times--that I need to whip her into shape, etc. She definitely over-shares. Her life revolves around working out, drinking and sex. Talks about her "gentlemen callers" all the time to me. Her boss. LOL.
I like her--she's funny. Nice enough, albeit highly inappropriate. Mostly, I love her stories b/c she is just pure drama.
Well......turns out she is an OW. Didn't see it coming, but in retrospect, makes perfect sense. She was talking about her latest "friend." Showed me a pic and said, "He's married." I just responded, "Oh, so he's a dou@he then." She said she didn't care, she wasn't looking for anything serious anyway. Just someone to have fun with. I had to order another glass of Rose b/c I was about ready to go off on her. But I didn't. Figured I'd save it for another day.
Anyway, what I know about her is that she is massively insecure. But she is also an attorney who is attractive with a gregarious personality. But, she is absolutely an AD. Hoping I can take her under my wing and "fix" her. I mean, I can't fix my H, may as well try to rid the world of one more OW right?
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Fixer alert!!!!
Dearest KIT,
You can't fix stupid.
Regards,
Morte 8)
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Fixer alert!!!!
Dearest KIT,
You can't fix stupid.
Regards,
Morte 8)
Agreed - you can not fix her - wasting your time and you should
first try banging your head against a wall and see if that makes you feel better. :)
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Penelope, if they seem to love it, one more reason to leave them to it.
OW/OM is not always an obvious affair down. Some OW/OM are very similar to the LBS. It is not uncommon for to MLCers to have an affair, or for two married, non-MLC people to have an affair. MLC is not just the affair, the affair is part of MLC.
Keep, mid-late 30's is the age several of our MLCers were. Maybe the younger lawyer in your office is having a MLC of her own. Regardless, the guy is the married one. There is no shortage of married, non-MLC people, who have affairs. Let them to it.
No, no trying to fix her. Her circus, her monkeys. One of the things LBS have to learn is no more fixing, be it the MLCer or someone else.
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They live 2500 miles apart which is good and bad. Good I don't have to see them out together etc. Bad because they don't see each other enough to have the infatuation where off !
Same deal with my h's ow - she is 2000 miles away. Long distance R but h manages to fly out to visit her every 3 weeks for a 7 - 10 days. When they are apart, the distance allows them to discharge any stress from being together. Three weeks later it's honeymoon time all over again. I agree that this type of R could go on for a very long time. I no longer have any thoughts either way about it - I'm that indifferent.
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Hello,
There is no shortage of married, non-MLC people, who have affairs. Let them to it.
Thanks Anjae, I often over diagnose MLC over the following
I just responded, "Oh, so he's a dou@he then.
There is a lot more of that then I want to accept.
It's funny because when I was with my ex for 18 years, I never cheated. Not once. Even when we were having issues and she had OM, I never strayed. I had opportunities but I have always prided myself on being loyal and not wanting the mess.
For example, there was a real cute speech therapist. Very cute. Also 20 years younger. We spoke often and had a lot of fun at work- even rumors that we were an item. I never saw her or met her outside of work. However, I could have pushed my limits and probably taken advantage of the situation. But, It would have been a mess. I was by no means ready for any relationship and she needed a mentor and a guide not an idiot.
Now she is married and I am remarried. We still keep in contact and we are good friends. The way it should be.
Maybe my dad is a great example. He's like me only smaller, but a very engaging and charming guy. Ladies love him. However, he has never strayed or even thought about straying. 59 years of marriage and he still is all over her.
Great role model.
I am in a new marriage and everything is great. Why ruin something that is great for a fling? A moment of passion and a lifetime of regret. To ruin a reputation and career for nothing. I love my wife and my family too much to hurt them like that.
Besides, I watched Fatal Attraction....that movie scared me. A Lot....Maybe all men should have to watch that movie every six months as a training film.
As much as I hate the OP, at least with MLC, there is the need for the fix, the depression and the avoidance that the OP will make them feel better, even heal them, to give them the life they feel they are missing out on. Their affair is terrible and destructive, but at least MLC has some explanation.
But the ones that cheat because the opportunity rises, that's even worse. It's like a killer telling the police. "I did it because I wanted to know what it feels like."
Just my opinion,
(((((Ready)))))
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You're welcome, Ready. As LBS and in a forum dedicated to MLC, we tend to see all cheating as MLC. It isn't. And MLC requires more than an affair. Some MLCers never have OW/OM, I didn't, others here didn't. My wallower cousin didn't, my single friends who had (are having) MLC didn't.
Many people of both genders are engaging and charming and ladies/gentlemen love them. It does not mean those people are going to have affairs.
Thanks Anjae, I often over diagnose MLC over the following
Why ruin something that is great for a fling? A moment of passion and a lifetime of regret. To ruin a reputation and career for nothing. I love my wife and my family too much to hurt them like that.
So much this. Even if, with MLCer, it is a little more complicate because MLCers tend to leave their spouse and establish a years long relatioship with OW/OM.
I am single, I could date any guy I wanted to. However, I don't want to date just any guy and just because. I am something meaninful. It is interesting, cheaters always seem to find people to cheat with, single people who want quality have it far more difficult. I think the operative word is quality.
Besides, I watched Fatal Attraction....that movie scared me. A Lot....Maybe all men should have to watch that movie every six months as a training film.
I don't know, Ready. Many men love that crazyness that they equal with great sex. It is probably great sex, but ... There are also many men who love drama, the more the better.
I am not a man, but I pass the crazy and the drama. I want quality, kindness, peace and quietness.
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As a general rule, when someone cheats it has absolutely NOTHING to do with the person they are with. It’s not a case of “oh he cheated on her so he doesn’t love her”. Typically you could cheat on the love of your life. It totally 110% depends on how you feel about yourself. Even if your with the love of your life if you have low self esteem, your quote likely to cheat. Out of women who cheat, a vast majority of them have just had a child and are feeling low. So I don’t think it’s about cheating because they can, there is much usually a much deeper rooted issue that causing them to cheat. Because if someone was to cheat because let’s just say they needed an easy lay, why not go to a brothel? Where your guaranteed one? It tends to be they need some kind of thrill that isn’t just the biology of the hokey pokey weather your cheating because or MLC or not. Also again why you find some people will cheat on every single person they have ever been with and some people don’t even think about it.
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Of course cheating has all to with the cheater and the cheater issues.
Because if someone was to cheat because let’s just say they needed an easy lay, why not go to a brothel?
Moral reasons to start with. Paying for sex is a boundary some people do not cross. It can also land you in troubles with the law in several places. Some people who cheat just want an easy lay. It still has all to with them, but that is all they want.
There are different types of cheating/affairs. For some is is merely because they can, for others it is because they are looking for something that they think is missing (in them, even if they may blame the spouse and/or marriage), others are sex addicts.
Sure, people may, and do cheat, on people they love, including the love of their live, but their love isn't that big, is it? Because if the issue is that they suffer from low self-esteem, then they don't really love anyone else that much.
If someone cheats of every person they have been with that person has serious issues. MLCers may cheat on all their alienators while in crisis, which would be connected to MLC. Not all MLCers cheat on OW/OM, many don't. They tranfer monogamy to OW/OM.
I can think of several ways of a woman who just had a child to feel better/less depressed than an affair. And how exactly does a woman who has just had a child has time and the will for an affair? For some reason, men whose wives are pregnant also cheat a lot.
What has always confused me with affairs, is where do people find time for them. A married person, with kids and a job still has time and energy for an affair? Or even married without kids, where to you find the time? Why do people like to be into such a mess and waste so much time with something useless, be it for the cheater or for OW/OM?
And way do so many OW (it is usually OW) waste their lives waiting for a married man who is never going to leave the wife? The OW of married woman tends to be more practical, enjoy it while it is good, then jump out. Here I am talking about non-MLC affairs.
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What has always confused me with affairs, is where do people find time for them. A married person, with kids and a job still has time and energy for an affair? Or even married without kids, where to you find the time? Why do people like to be into such a mess and waste so much time with something useless, be it for the cheater or for OW/OM?
This is EXACTLY what I asked my H. He told me that eventually it became too much and leading a double life left him feeling exhausted and worthless. In addition, the affair he started thinking it was the answer to his crappy life, realized this outside "fix" wasn't fixing what was on the inside. Don't get me wrong, he STILL has SO much work to do but he knows the affair wasn't the answer.
His OW was a co-worker so they saw each other at work everyday and snuck away on their lunch hour to screw at her house. The house she shared with her H. (Class act I know,,,) So their affair was Monday through Friday from 8-5. He never stayed out late, never spent the weekend with her and never spent any money on her. It was all about ego kibbles and the occasional afternoon delight.
Towards the end of the affair, she wanted more and more of his time and she became very needy and he was at the end of his rope. Things, just as you stated, were starting to get messy.
My H tells me over and over again he was lost and having NO coping skills and feeling old, he got himself into a toxic waste dump. Again, MLCer not thinking straight.
Granted he is dealing with his other MLC demons, but it's his rodeo, his clowns. I am no longer riding that bull.
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What has always confused me with affairs, is where do people find time for them. A married person, with kids and a job still has time and energy for an affair?
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This was my question after I discovered what he was actually doing . You do look "backwards " and try to figure out how the hell I ever missed any clue whatsoever. He was NEVER really missing. He never ( not once) went anywhere on the weekends, came home after work, she was not a co-worker etc. Prior to him leaving, he was not absent for any periods of time that made me take notice.
I had planned ( and paid for ) a trip to Cuba with 3 of my daughters and he was "pushing" me to go . Hmmmm?. I wonder why?. He spent 3 days with her in a hotel while I was gone. I went away again later in the summer...and he did the same thing. Both of these weekends away were places he had jobs to inspect... so he worked while she sat in a motel room...... Clueless me. I discovered ( during confession time) that he was taking afternoon's off work or he was starting his day late and went to her house. He is his own boss, so he had no one to answer to. Had I not gone on vacation, not sure how he would ever have seen much of her . Of course , after he left our home, he was not really having an "affair" ( sure) and could do whatever he wanted. And I bet he did.
After he moved out he quit his job and started to work for his brother 5 hours away. Again, he never really saw much of her from what I can tell. I believe he stayed with her on weekends when he came to town...and that is less than a mile from me and his own family . Of course , I do not believe "I have the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth". She certainly settled for "crumbs" of a man.
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Mr J was also never missing. I later found out he would meet OW in hotels when he was djing out of the capital - his djing start before he left and OW1. The only time he was late, he phoned, saying he had missed the bus and would be home by dinner time. It was quite plausible. However, unlike what he told me, he didn't spend the time waiting for the next bus reading by the seaside, it was the first time OW1 went to meet him.
They also had a stolen kiss in a train/tube station in the capital. Mr J was on his work round, stop be the station, spend a couple of minutes with OW1, they kissed, he left. She was with a female friend and terrified the friend would see them. Can you say ridiculous and teenage like? ::)
He e-mailed OW1 from work and called her either when he left in the morning, during his lunch break on his way home. The only thing he did I thought suspicious was Messenger (the good old one, not Facebook one) and wanting the computer for himself. We used to be side by side often using the computer. One day he started to freak that I was there with him, as it was often the case. I asked him why he was freaking since he had always done it. Had he something to hide? No, no, I don't have anything to hide, he said. Then he went back not to mind if I was around.
He didn't spend nights away aside from those ones he was djing out of town, he would be home for dinner., etc. But, in Mr J's case, OW1 lived in another city, some 200km away. She had a job, he still had his pre-MLC job. Even after he left they only meet on weekends, aside from some holidays = Mr J went djing abroad. And during the weekends, he would be djing Friday and Saturday. She always had to leave Sunday after lunch, and, at a point, she could only come to the capital by Saturday. After he left, he went to see her once or twice on a weekend.
With me, or without me in the capital, he spend most of his time alone during OW1 be it when she was hidden or in the open. OW1 spend countless nights, be it when they were hidden or open in clubs while he was djing.
OW2 lived on the other side of the river from our capital, pretty much a wider part of the capital and was always in our capital. When OW2 come along I was back home, he was alone. Time for OW2 or anyone else would be the same, since he no longer had a marriage/spouse.
One fine thing with Mr J djing while he had already left, but I was still around. Some nights, for whatever reason he wanted me to go see him djing even if OW1 was there. "You can come, no one his going to bother you, you can be with me, she will with her friends, away from the dj booth". Really? How hillarious is that? The wife you don't want can be on the dj booth, and have drinks for free, and the woman of your life, the big love of your life, has to seat in some dark corner with her friends because you do not want her in the dj booth. ::) You can't make this stuff up.
Of course he got a no.
After OW1 was no more, but before OW2 truly become OW1, one of the times he come to dj here back in early 2008, he texted, inviting me to go see him djing. That he was alone (meaning no woman), that he would put my name on the guest list (not that I needed, if I wanted to go I would be on the guest list anyway), that he would pay for my drinks, taxis, etc. Me? Thank you, but no. That night he texted a bit, until he had to start his set.
What does the meaning of such texting? Mostly that MLCers cannot be alone, not even when they are in a club waiting for their dj set to start. If there is no one else, and if they are in limbo because OW is not more and a new OW still isn't really OW, why not try the wife you don't want? Anyone is better than no one. ::)
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To me, anyway, I think the MLCer's that either end their affairs on their own or end them after they are caught, realize the OW/OM isn't what they truly want. Since they are so selfish and self-centered, it's all about what the OW/OM can do to make THEM happy. They have no desire to make the OW/OM happy. They think it's truw wuv, but it's all about what THEY get out of the relationship. I know my H didn't care that his AP was crying and throwing a fit at 5:00 when my H wanted to come home. He just let her cry and didn't care she wasn't happy. All. He. Cared. About. Was. Himself. Period.
Maybe these are the ones that come out of the crisis quicker, I don't know. But I think once they start to come to the conclusion that outside fixes don't fix what's going on inside of them, they go one step closer to the end of the tunnel.
The issue my H has now is that he doesn't want to look into the deep, dark hole inside himself because it hurts to look there and it would mean he needs to do the work. It's much easier to blame everyone else for your demons and issues that have put you were you are.
I am just living everyday the best I can for me, and let God do what he does.
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I agree everything.
I couldn’t understand why my H was with his Ow. She was an obvious affair down. Then they went away together BEFORE EVEN BEING OFFICIALLY A COUPLE and she bought him a £400 Apple Watch. She began paying for trips away to show off on Instagram and it soon became apparent. When we were together we had one wage coming in a house to run and three kids to support. Money was extremely tight. It’s clear his motivation is money. But that will soon run out!
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BEFORE EVEN BEING OFFICIALLY A COUPLE
This is where my H's affair was so different. Maybe because his AP was married too I don't know. But they did everything to keep their affair a secret. They told no one. No social media posts, no PDA, nothing. They did NOT want to be deemed an "official couple". They were so worried about being caught, but they were so stupid. I am sure people that worked with them couldn't help but notice they went to lunch together all the time and spent their breaks together. It's not rocket science to see that two people spending that much time together are more than just friends.
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Well I suppose this is where they are different as I suspect Ow and H started wfter BD so both were “technically” single. That said Ow was oh so quick to show her relationship off. When I blocked her (over a year ago!) she had uploaded almost 3000 photos on Instagram and some are the most pointless photos. She even uploaded photos of him and her in a lift. Despite the fact you can clearly see he’s swerving to try and avoid being in the photo. At the time of me blocking H on Instagram (7 months after becoming official with Ow) he only uploaded one thing that put them together. Despite during that time them going to London, Paris, and many other trips away. He wouldn’t even upload a generic Paris pic. Literally nothing tied them together from his side. However now he’s stopped all his family following him etc and only had Ow and people who know her that follow him so I would assume he now uploads about Ow.
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Sachat,
My wife and other man started 3 weeks after B/D though we were still living together. It's an affair anyway you slice it ! He is married also and I haven't seen one pic of them on the internet.
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Well my BD was a bit slightly different. I did go into it on my thread BUT I don’t know, I think he had a bit of a, I probably can’t find the right word to describe it but he was a bit amazed by her I guess. She’s a year older than me, yet she (was) very plain Jane. No makeup. No tan. No nails etc. Very unlike me. But she also had heaps and heaps of disposable income unlike us who were on a very tight shoestring budget. She’s also very athletic and runs a lot. Running is his replay hobby!
He will more than likely view himself as “not doing anything wrong” but we all know that’s not a lie. He may not have started anything with her until after we split but regardless. I was at home with HIS three children whilst he was meeting her in hotels.
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Mine hasn't moved out and this August it will be 2 yrs since BD. I have asked him to leave early on but he didn't go anywhere. I get the fact that our home is his home too, but if the OW was such a catch, why didn't he go? I have asked him this in the past and he isn't really sure why he didn't leave. My guess is that he doesn't have any where to go. (Not my problem, but it's what I think happened) I know his AP was talking about getting her own apt and leaving her H (She even wrote her H a letter telling him they were done and he needed to move on)
But if it were me having an affair and MLC, I would have moved out. If I really "wuved" my AP, or thought I did, I wouldn't let a 25 yr marriage get in my way. (Trying to think like a MLCer here,,,)
The one good thing about my H is that he realized pretty quickly that he WAS having a crisis. It took a few months of denial but eventually he figured it out on his own. I think that's one part of him staying in the house. He told me he's worried that once he's through the tunnel and wakes up, if he throws away the marriage, it may be the worst mistake he's ever made. So he's a fence sitter. Post in his butt and all. ;D
The difference is, I am off the fence living my life. Yes we are still in the same house together, but I don't care one way or another what he does or doesn't do any longer.
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It’s good you have got to that point everything. I think deep down they know they don’t love the AP they just want to convince themselves they do. I remember when the “ding ding ding this is MLC” lights went on and haven’t gone off since. I always suspected but my H said “there’s just got to be more to life. There just has to be” so I think he’s been searching for the meaning something to make him happy but we all know. That said at BD I told him he was having a MLC and was depressed. Oddly enough the words spilled out of my mouth but I had no idea what they meant. It was then that I googled and knew what I was talking about so I’m not sure H(Clington) would ever actively admit its MLC. He might admit to himself but I doubt I’d get the “I told you so” moment
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What I thought was my BD back in March 2018 turned out to be my second BD. The first one came about 3 years prior to the second. H said the magic words to me, ILYBINILWY, and also told me that he told his dad that he was leaving me. I really didn't take it serious because he had run away from home at least 3 times prior to that and only stayed gone a day or two with two weeks being the longest. So, me not knowing what a MLC was I guess I was living with one for a few years prior to the BD that took him out of the house.
It was a week day back in February 2018 and H had the day off. We were out shopping and during a conversation I picked up his phone to check the time and saw a text message from a girl asking my H how his day was going. Of course H denied it all, said she is a friend from work. I laid a guilt trip on him, telling him he had just broke my heart. I asked if he would be willing to work on the marriage. He said he would. H said the ugly, fat B was not worth losing his marriage for. He tried for two weeks, being more attentive to me. Told me, at least I thought, where he was going and when he would be back. All lies. BD2 was two weeks later and off he went like a young teen who was going off to be with his friends.
H would pop back home every couple days in the beginning. One time during out conversation he mentioned that he had no feelings anymore. He told me that a man can live with a woman just so he has a place to stay. I've always felt that he was talking about ow.
I'm not sure how long H was having an EA with her or when it turned into a PA, but soon after he left he moved in with her. My H is in a club and we were very close to the other members. One day in April 2018 he walked into the clubhouse with ow in tow. He sat her down and introduced her as his ol lady. My girlfriends were in shock. One of them asked her if she new my H was married and she said yes, He is happy with me know. This was the night of introduction and she was already throwing an attitude around. Not a good start.
In May 2018 the club went on a camping trip and H brought the ow. From what I was told by the other women, she was weird and nobody liked her. I heard stories of how she spoke to my H. Very controlling. At one point while he was talking amongst his friends she yelled to him to come over to him and tie his shoe. He accommodated her. I heard that the guys mocked him for it. I was also told that one day while camping a group of people were sitting around a picnic table and this AD pulled something from her pocket and laid it across the picnic table. When my girlfriend looked over she saw a bunch of this AD's sex toys on the table. Who does that?? :o :o :o
After that camping trip the women were told that they could no longer talk with me. Ya see, I was blamed because nobody wanted to talk to this AP. I wasn't even there. Because of this I don't hear anymore stories about ow, nor do I ask. I couldn't even tell you if they are still together or not.
All I can say is my H has changed in the past year. Seems more mature. But, yeah, these women are something else.
-Stand
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I think quite frankly, they have to be “something else” because these MLCers aren’t hunting for that specific person. They are not working and working to get that woman. They will get ANY woman they can. If one “potential Ow” says no. They will move onto the next. My Ow is just 7 shades of crazy and I mean crazy capital C. She is the definition of affair down. I mean, in the brexit deal both H and Ow voted polar opposite. She’s a royalist. He can’t stand the royals. The list is endless. If it wasn’t her it would be someone else. Which is why I suspect Ow clings to him the way she does because she knows someone will be in her spot fairly quick.
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Ahhh... The affair partner. Now, this is far from the first thread on this subject. In fact, is there a thread that doesn't mention the affair partner at all? Even one? Not sure why the other thread went down the gutter so quickly. But that's another subject,....
Back to the subject at hand. What do they have that I don't have? Good question. They must have something because my loving spouse left me for that person. So what is it? Those who know me, know what's coming next, my 20 yr old son said this to me days after his father left us and it made so much sense that here I am repeating it for the thousandth time...
"Mom, Dad wasn't looking for someone better than you, he was looking for someone worse than himself."
Bingo.
Maybe that's why I didn't really put much monkey-braining into her. Oh believe me, I fire trucked up just about everything else, but she was just a shadow in the background. Now I wasn't perfect, sometimes "good intentioned" friends/family members would slip information my way and I would sink, but I would just repeat the wise words of my son and pull out of that hole quickly. "Luckily" (haha), I had plenty of other sh!t to monkey-brain about...
Now I noticed many of you are getting into the details. He/She is different than the rest because he/she is:
old or young
good looking or ugly
Bat-$h!te crazy or seems normal
kids or no kids
just met or close "friend"
etc.,, etc., etc.,....
If it helps you to write it out, vent, monkey-brain in circles again and again and again until you are exhausted, please by all means, do whatever you need to do to heal. I know I monkey-brained for years about many things, honestly, sometimes I still do. My family exploding into pieces forever changed my life.
Humor me for a minute, this is a true story...
This friend I know, years ago volunteered at the juvenile corrections facility in our state. She was a music teacher and would teach a music class for in inmates under 18 years old. She mentioned an infamous inmate that every single person who lives in my state knows his name. She said he was "polite, funny, and was a very a nice guy"
"Umm" I said to her, "at age 13 he broke into a neighbors house and stabbed a sleeping female to death. Two years later, since he wasn't caught the first time, he broke into another neighbors house and killed a mom and two daughters aged 8 and 10. The next day he broke into that same house just to look at the bodies. State laws were changed because of this one person, Bill Clinton knew his name when he came to our state, he is a cold-blooded serial killer"
"But", she said, "If you met him, you would see he is actually a nice guy"....
The point of this story is sometimes one action negates everything else. I don't care if this guy tells funny jokes, smiles all the time, compliments me for my talents, etc etc... he fire trucking killed a family for pleasure. Nothing else matters!
Just like the affair partners.... I don't care about anything else other than they are willing to have sex with someone who is married and has no problem breaking up a family. Nothing else matters!. The ONLY exception would be if they really truly did not know that the person was married (very rare) and walked away when they found out... otherwise they are an affair down every.single.time.... every time.
Okay,... It's been over 7 years that The Leaver is with his affair partner, they married last year. (If you want to know my opinions on why they are still together, that's another story). I have never heard her voice, we have NEVER corresponded, not once, I have only seen her in person twice, once at my FIL's funeral, and once accidentally bumping into them at a restaurant (It's actually a pretty funny story)... So anything I could say about her would be conjecture. So for fun I'll talk about an affair partner that I'm very family with... my sister, who I have known for my entire life.
They were college sweethearts for a few years. He cheated on her and married his wife behind her back. That was almost 40 years ago. She stayed single for about 15 years after that, kind of like a recluse except for her career. Not many friends, not much of a social life. Then she met my BIL (great guy, I feel so bad that he was put through the ringer). He said he thought her awkwardness was "cute". She must have felt her biological clock ticking b/c they got married at age 40 and had a daughter six months later, a second daughter two years after the first. A few years later my bil opens up to me that my sister is "talking" to "the cop".... What?!? The D-bag from college?!? Yep.
Fast forward through the drama filled divorce. Then it gets quiet for a few years and "suddenly" "the cop" is also going through a divorce after a 35-yr- "unhappy" marriage. Shocking. ::)
I almost (not really) feel bad for this cop. Not only did he destroy his life for my fire trucked up sister but now he has me, a very vocal betrayed spouse, as a sister in law....(insert evil laughter here).
For the last few years, the "smoke and mirrors" have been everywhere.
Here is what people see on Facebook/compared to reality:
Facebook:
My sister has a great career that has her traveling to Europe every few weeks. Beautiful pictures.
Reality:
Who has been watching the kids while she is globe-trotting? No one mentions it. Not her MLC husband, nobody knows where he is when she is traveling, it's my bil who happily takes them whenever he can, and then is chastised behind his back for the silliest things like taking them to McDonald's for dinner.
Facebook:
Big family photos for all the holidays
Reality:
This Easter he was watching TV in the other room the entire day.
Facebook:
Big beautiful wedding
Reality:
My oldest sister, and I (and our kids) boycotted the wedding, most people who were there don't even know we exist.
Facebook:
Look at the pictures, she's so good with her mother.
Reality:
She gave my mother money to feed her kids when my mother baby-sits them (all the time btw) and then wrote it off on her taxes, so my mother who is on a fixed income had to pay taxes. My sister makes six figures.
I could go on and on. Believe me, the portrait of their "perfect" life is so far from reality it (again) almost makes me feel bad for them. But they destroyed two families to be together and now they are stuck in their swill.
BTW... "The cop" is now a Sargent and still looks down and takes two steps back every single time I walk into the room. Even my husband observed that he is scared to death of me.
Coward.
(insert evil laughter)... 8)
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Nah, so very true...all of it.
But as you know my first H was a womanizer..good looking, charming as can be, but he actually met his match.
He started seeing this really nice woman. Lied to her he was divorced.
After she found out she was quite upset and said she would never have dated him if she had known, broke up with him on the spot, so he divorced me.
She did end up marrying him (her first mistake) and she was a wonderful woman. Very good to my kids..but guess what? 2 1/2 years later she divorced him...found him cheating on her. ::)
He went on snowing women after that for years.
Now I can't honestly say anything bad about that woman. See did not knowingly date a married man, and when she found out she broke it off.
So not all ow's are affair downs. She was a much better person than he was. Some just fall for a lying, married predator.
I KNOW this is not the norm, but it does happen.
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"Mom, Dad wasn't looking for someone better than you, he was looking for someone worse than himself."
-Great quote to remember as usual.
The point of this story is sometimes one action negates everything else. I don't care if this guy tells funny jokes, smiles all the time, compliments me for my talents, etc etc... he fire trucking killed a family for pleasure. Nothing else matters!
-How many times do you see this crap in the news. Some guy murders a buncha people and everyone is like ''Oh well he seemed so nice''. But that is the point right? Everyone suspects the dirt covered angry guy in the corner...no one goes near him....but the charming, magnetic, funny guy who smells good? Perfect serial killer material because you don't expect it. Makes them truly more dangerous.
Just like the affair partners.... I don't care about anything else other than they are willing to have sex with someone who is married and has no problem breaking up a family. Nothing else matters!. The ONLY exception would be if they really truly did not know that the person was married (very rare) and walked away when they found out... otherwise they are an affair down every.single.time.... every time.
-I 100 thousand percent agree. I don't care who they are, how old they are, how hot they are, how successful...there is a serious permanent character flaw within someone who destroys a family for their own happiness.
BTW... "The cop" is now a Sargent and still looks down and takes two steps back every single time I walk into the room. Even my husband observed that he is scared to death of me.
-Love this. ;D
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I'll chime in. My W has "just" had two EAs, so I realize my situation is a bit different. Most of what I know about them is what I've seen from my W's texts with them and their Facebook pages. I figured out pretty early on that they were a symptom rather than the problem.
Here are my observations:
* What a couple of losers!
* MOM 1 is a total creep. He obviously got his jollies asking a married, older woman about her sex life. Might not have one of his own.
* OM2 is a younger guy who lives halfway across the country. He spent a lot of time flirting and sexting with a married, older woman who lives 1000 miles away. Nobody who knows him in person likes him? Can't see any reason to.
In some ways I would have understood if these guys were professional athletes, neurosurgeons, billionaires, handsome, rich or charming. But they're not. I'm not perfect by any means, but both these idiots are clearly steps down from her H.
In our case, I think it was more about broken finding broken. It must be hard for an unhealthy person to be in a relationship with a healthy one.
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If your H hires the AP at his company with zero relevant skills is she a prostitute?
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Now I can't honestly say anything bad about that woman. See did not knowingly date a married man, and when she found out she broke it off.
So not all ow's are affair downs. She was a much better person than he was. Some just fall for a lying, married predator.
I KNOW this is not the norm, but it does happen.
I agree Thunder. I can't find much bad to say about OM, as a matter of fact he seems to be at least a decent guy. Probably much 'better' person than XW, meaning that she was and always has been quite selfish person, dominating and never wrong in anything etc. She really wasn't the easiest person in a world to live with, I of course loved her as she was my wife I chose myself and had kids with. Still doesn't make her easy person in any way. I believe OM is much more easygoing than her, more may I say balanced person than her obviously. I see something about myself in him, quite much probably tbh (not saying I was any better person than XW or anyone) so he is really not opposite of me.
I have a theory that she had him bc she sees him as better version of me :o What had her confused was that there still wasn't a 'connection' between them, not the same that we had, that's what she told me herself.
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Everybody is nice to somebody. I mean, Hitler for example. He got everyone in Germany a job. He brought in cars. He made sure his “people” never went hungry. So yuno, to some extent for a while he was a nice guy wasn’t he. Then the obvious happened and he killed millions. Nobody would say “Oh come on guys, Hitler isn’t all bad”. There is not a person alive that is 100% bad. Some people are 99.999999% bad. So it doesn’t really matter. The bad, when it’s really bad. Always outweighs the good.
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"Mom, Dad wasn't looking for someone better than you, he was looking for someone worse than himself."
Bingo.
I love this and so true. Before BD, my ex used to tell me I deserved better than him and how much better I could and that I needed to meet someone like his Uncle (who in hindsight, has a shiny exterior, but a sinister interior and is not how either of us thought he was ).
He would say that he was going to end up like his dad. Alone. It hasn't happened yet, but there's time. Ha!
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"Mom, Dad wasn't looking for someone better than you, he was looking for someone worse than himself."
This!!!
In my case it was my daughters reaction to meeting the OW that confirmed it really was an AD. I really know nothing about the OW other than they worked together, she holds a decent job and she has two kids (different Dads). I don't know if she is/was married, a serial flirt, or anything about her...but after he introduced her to my kids my daughter came home and said she felt sorry for her (well almost!). She witnessed her Dad talk down to the OW, gave her no respect, she saw the OW walking on eggshells so as not to upset him. Her response was "Mum, she's nothing like you, she's got no opinions".
And yes, before BD, my ex used to tell me I deserved better than him and how he was afraid he'd turn into his abusive father.
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She witnessed her Dad talk down to the OW, gave her no respect, she saw the OW walking on eggshells so as not to upset him. Her response was "Mum, she's nothing like you, she's got no opinions".
And yes, before BD, my ex used to tell me I deserved better than him and how he was afraid he'd turn into his abusive father.
Yep, my H had an abusive father too and what you wrote is exactly how my H treats OW as well. But it's not that she doesn't have an opinion. She isn't ALLOWED to have one. This is why I think the OW is not necessarily as controlling as everyone wants to believe because I think for a lot of these MLCers, they were controlled by their abusive parents and are trying to turn the tables by controlling someone else themselves. My H told me that he wanted someone to put up with his "nastiness" and I really think he didn't want to take it out on me. In my case I swear he is playing his father's role and expects OW to be like his mother (who must have just taken the "nastiness").
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She witnessed her Dad talk down to the OW, gave her no respect, she saw the OW walking on eggshells so as not to upset him. Her response was "Mum, she's nothing like you, she's got no opinion
Wow,
This is what I have always wondered about. Does he treat her with kindness or has he become abusive? My BD was 13 months ago and in that time I have never been monstered. Did he chose her so that he could let it all out. Two weeks before BD i caught her text on his phone one day when out shopping with H. I told him that he just broke my heart. He seemed very upset about that. I asked if we could work on us and his answer was "yes, that fat, ugly, B was not worth it to him. He BD me two weeks later and moved in with her. I wonder just how bad it is for her. H has also said to me in the past, while drinking, that he is not a nice person. He said that's how he felt inside.
H also had an abusive father who, to this day, has no emotions or the ability to love. Well, I did donate my egg shells to the ow. ;D
Message to ow, When you lye down with dogs your gonna get fleas. 8)
-Stand
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Could have written the same thing as you Stand. I think there is some sort of anger that my H is working through with ow too. He is my knight in shining armour and when he can't sustain that, he hangs with her.
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My X has a very volatile relationship with his OW. He would tell me about the knock out, drag out fights they would have. Would even have bruises. Once he showed up with a brace around his wrist after a brawl they had at a bar ::). I would listen in shock. He always treated me with respect and kindness. Never once showed a volatile side. Yet, the treatment between those two is total abuse.
Love the saying that he left for someone worse than himself. So true. My X's OW is an extreme AD and he too came from a household with an abusive (alcoholic turned dry alcoholic) father. Oh, did I mention that X's OW is an alcoholic too.
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My MLC’er OW wasn’t really a W. My ex was 52 and ran off with a student who was 32. I really know very little about her. I struggle sometimes because I never got any closure. My ML’er ran off with her. He was a associate professor at a college. He was assigned to help her through her project. Then I found out she was also helping him in his class taking notes, etc. She was aggressive from a distance. She would call him at night when he was home with one issue after another with her health. I remember one time he tried to leave one night and I was like NO, this is not your issues. She needs to be taking this stuff to someone else. She called and texted him all the time like it was no big deal. I really should have hunted her down. LOL! She ended up being diagnosed with Lupus and that drew them together. I was getting ready to have liver surgery for cancer and he ran off with her to help her with her lupus. I went to surgery by myself. He said he didn’t want to be responsible for making any discussions people would be upset with him about. The discussion of not being there wouldn’t upset anyone?
Anyhow my MLC’er just took off to another state and never looked back. She’s still sick and he’s more or less just her caretaker. I’m twice her age and healthy even though I have cancer. So that grass ended up not being greener. They have now been together for 5 years. They haven’t marriage. I think that says something. He’s lost his business, not working but she has a business she needs him for. It probably doesn’t bring in much but she needs him as an instructor. So, I feel like their using each other. He doesn’t have anywhere to go and he takes care of her and she needs him to take care of her and for this business she started and we weren’t even divorced yet. She was pretty quiet but very bold. She knew just what she was doing when she went over him. He’s a follower so he was easy to lead and he’s still being lead. I don’t believe he will ever walk away from her. She’ll have to dump him. She has to know he’s out of money. Their relationship was pricey for him. He lost everything from that relationship. He professional career, his friends, his professional respect, money, business, he’s behind in taxes,getting ready to claim bankrupcy and he’s doing mystery shopping. He’s a physical, it’s crazy. What I hate to most is how I have never gotten closure. He just abandoned me. Brought me to a new stay and then met her and took off and never looked back. I knew very little about her. She can’t be found on the internet, she’s in to conspiracy theory stuff and took him down that road as well. I think there might be some mental illness with her but don’t know for sure. She really did pull him in like it wasn’t just love. It’s like she’s done something like this before and he was dumb enough to walk right into it.
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Could have written the same thing as you Stand. I think there is some sort of anger that my H is working through with ow too. He is my knight in shining armour and when he can't sustain that, he hangs with her.
That's a really interesting interpretation. I wouldn't call my H my knight in shining armor but he sure seems like he wants to be seen that way. When I get upset he will rattle off this long list of things he is doing for me as if that is enough and his lack of emotional awareness is irrelevant. However, it's 100% clear he is working through some kind of anger with OW.
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Yuno that insight is so thought provoking. Clington was always the Knight. And the “fixer”. During our relationship when I needed a shoulder he was there. Even to some extent after BD he would check and double check I was okay. He was the same with the kids. There was nothing Clington couldn’t fix until D2 got very poorly & he couldn’t fix it. I’ve always felt D2 getting so poorly was a catalyst.
However, I’ve never had “monster” at all out of Clington. He if anything is exceptionally fair (if you take out the fact he’s shacked up with another woman!) no mean comments. No shouting. No aggression. He’s fair with money. He’s nice I guess. He makes it his aim to be nice and friendly with me. So maybe the monster does spew out to her! As my Ow tends to act her shoe size she makes it clear on Social media when they argue etc and they seem to argue ALOT!
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When H left at BD, he told me that I was strong and didn't need him and the kids were grown and didn't need but the OW needed him. Understood him and listened to him. He was able to help her too by giving her money. He commented several times about how the rent money was a big help to her.
Helped me at the house to settle some things soon after BD that were in half swing then no additional help. I didn't ask. He didn't offer.
Recently (at about 17 to 18 mos post BD) he is showing up and just doing things. Been going on for several mos. I go home and my grass is mowed. My recycling is out. The AC is in the window. The mail brought in. Just little things and mostly the things he used to do.
I recently commented that it feels like he is trying to be my Knight doing all these things. He volunteers or he just goes and does things. I will avoid asking unless it pertains to the dogs.
I enjoy the break from all the chores but I don't want a knight! However if this is what he needs, then why should I stop him. In a way, it seems like he is reversing who needs him.
With me....I found I don't need him. I want him but I can have a fulfilling life either way!
As for OW....she no longer owns a dilapidated house that needs repairs. She no longer has rent since she lives in daughter's basement. She is not needy in the way that he can now do things for her. He has chosen to not live with her so I can only hope he is giving the OW money to his sister now. Who knows. He will have to work it out.
I am just happy when he shows any small signs of turning away from OW. Yes he runs back...but there are starts. The A is now at the 2 year mark!
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Well I am coming up to the two year mark here pretty shortly. Feels like it has been forever, yet no time at all now. I am happy about that.
In the beginning I thought time would drag on and on. Hours apart from him felt like years....and now years....doesn't feel like the decades I imagined it to feel like.
I suppose having kids to keep you busy means the time passes faster, but you can also see the effects more keenly.
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The alienator?
I don't want to know who, why or how. The less I know, the better.
Ignorance is bliss.
-SS
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My alienator apparently just sold (gave?) her car to XH. I can't be positive, but S16 said it was a red Jeep, and I know that SHE had a red Jeep.
I am incensed by this, because S16 is now learning to drive in a contaminated vehicle...and (God forbid) that anything should happen to him in said vehicle!
Am I over-reacting? Or being completely normal in a sick and twisted situation?
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I had fear, anger, frustration and curiosity. I was able to put together that the OW my H had an EA with was someone with some serious issues. At the time of BD I was told she had already been through 6 or 7 men at work (and that was when she was there 4 years). Someone I know who knew and worked with her said the number was way higher than that. She justified her cheating on her H because he cheated on her. Her social media accounts portrayed someone who preferred going out and partying and dancing with men, yet she had two little girls at home. You wouldn't know she had kids from her posts. I remember initially thinking that they were nieces or something. In the beginning I was so angry and hurt but now at 3+ years later I can see the situation much differently. I think she didnt care about herself. She has the criteria for BPD, and I can say this because I am a licensed therapist. I believe she had/has very low self-esteem and this was probably what attracted my H to her. I have never had any communication with her. We worked for the same agency at different locations and I firmly believe if there was contact, I would have been fired.
"Once one has a basic understanding of MLC, just look forward and move forward." God knows I try. I am not as hurt as I was back then. Sometimes things happen that remind me of OW. Since we work within the same agency, I am constantly reminded of his MLC antics. Our work environments are notorious for cheaters. Every so often, I see someone who is very similar to OW and it brings up some uncomfortable feelings. I almost, ALMOST, understood H's actions one day as I witnessed someone who looked an awful lot like OW talking to her male coworkers about her problems and I felt sorry for her. And I could ALMOST understand how H's antics started wit him feeling sorry for OW. I have recently been considering looking for a job in a much different environment just to get away from what I want to refer to as triggers but that's another post.
I have a patient on my caseload who happens to have the same last name as OW. Sometimes it bothers me to say that name but most of the time it doesn't. Because of health privacy laws, I cannot disclose this to H. It is something I have to deal with and it isn't that big of a deal. I rarely ever referred to her by name with H, though. I found names that were more suitable for her.
Early on, after BD, I did what I probably wasn't supposed to do and issued an ultimatum to H. It was agreed he would leave the work location because I couldn't trust him with her. He tried hard not to go. It reached the point where he just lied and lied about her and couldn't keep his lies straight. And so I gave him another ultimatum which was its her or me. He then transferred to a different location. I am at a point now where I believe that this was a mixed blessing. H went through depression and some things at that place and really hated it. His motivation to go to work was OW and how he could help her. We know he wasn't helping her at all. She has BPD. The ironic thing is so does H's mother. They both portray themselves as victims no matter the situation. And I believe this was also a factor in H's antics.
OW is 21 years younger than H. As far as I know he has not had any contact with her. She was a user so I tend to believe this. I know of people who worked at the same location with her who told me she has not changed and the list of men continues. She is no longer on social media and I have no idea why. I can only speculate that the inappropriate photos got her into some type of trouble. It is sad because it seemed like she loved the attention. And I heard she was being investigated for some unprofessional things. No surprise there.
I needed to share.
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l still wonder about the om nearly 7yrs later. They're of in their life , she bloody married him.
l don't even know his last name , she went back to her maiden name.
l could find out now yeah , but in that first year or so , l even followed her to his place a few times, lost her ever time.
One day l turn up to pick up my daughter and he was just getting out of his car, but my daughter was inside and really really upset so l didn't wanna start anything right then.
l did race up to him though and roared into the ugly bastards face from an inch away to stay the fk out of this.That's one of the only two satisfactions l've ever had. Because my daughter was inside so upset l raced in to be with her and hopefully she was still coming back with me for the wkend.
l never found out why she was so upset that morning w just rang and said she was.l spent the rest of the wkend cheering her up though and really didn't wanna bring it up as she was much better later.
A few days later l told ex and sent her info, that l didn't want him nesr or around my daughter again until she was 16 or l'm going for custody right now, she was 12 at the time. w kept her word and my d never saw him again for 4yrs. l don;t think w was even seeing him half the time, they seemed to have some on off thing after that. That was the second satisfaction.
OM, l hated that little town he lived in and everyone in it, so l couldn't find anything out about him, even where he lived.
We were new to the whole district, but my w was working at the hospital so she was knowing everyone l knew no one and lived and worked at home, our property 8k out and mostly used the other towns around us even before all this.
l knew no one l couldn't ask, our few so called friends were w's friends so they would've heard all about it and knew him.
l only knew one guy down the road from me l could trust and l asked him to see what he could find out, turned up nothing couldn't believe it.Found ou=t urs later he lived out of the town in some little hidden spot ha, typical.
lt was like the whole world was against me laughing and looking after him. Even w's parents and sisters, like they condoned her and him and my daughters family being destroyed.
l only ever saw him that once, l dunno , maybe it was lucky. l dunno what l was gonna do .
And l was torn anyway, like exactly who's fault is it anyway , and why would you fight for a w or h that left and did all this , and chose om or ow with their own free will, iver us.
Who's at fault is it ? They chose, destroyed their family and us 19yrs.
Why should l want back a w or h like that, why would l fight for a women like that?
So to this day tbh l still don't know, but l still hate that he got off scott free.
How do others feel about all that angle. ?
l even saw a thread asking that in another forum, everyone in it said if a w or h chose to do all this and leave for another m or w then it's all on them, no matter what the om or ow are, they chose them over you and their own family and left .
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I think at the end of the day you should ask yourself...
Would you have left your family for another person if you were convinced it would make you happy?
Likely as an LBS your answer is no, family is more important...happiness is found within...yada yada.
But the answer for our MLCer was apparently yes.
That isn't on the OM/OW. That was our spouse. I truly believe if it wasn't this particular OM/OW it would be another who happened to fit the dysfunctional bill.
Does that mean the OM/OW don't deserve some bad Karma because they should have known better? Well I believe they are at fault for getting involved with a married person, and will get what is coming to them. They get a broken ass MLCer after all. :o
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I think that the person who made the vows and built a life and family with us...and then lied, cheated and disrespected that...is the primary person responsible tbh and where our anger and hurt should be directed. But ow/om plays their part even if they didn't cause it. Sometimes it is easier to be angry at om/ow or blame them before we are ready to feel anger and distaste for our spouse. And some ow/om do make a painful or difficult situation much worse bc of their own lack of character, disordered behaviour or their own agenda. Not all, but some.
I can't comprehend the mentality of either being a cheater or being an ow/om. Whatever you need to be able to do that, I just don't have in me. It is a kind of profound selfishness I think and a sort of shallowness...that nothing and no one else matters as long as you feel good. I think if that is your character, you will justify it however you can and it is a waste of time to expect decency or empathy from people like that. Imho it is easy to hate the ow/om...harder to come to terms with hating our spouse/ex and accepting that they humiliated and rejected us and changed our family life forever bc it made them feel good in some way.
The only comfort I find is that character does out in the end. People who are inherently selfish or lack empathy will be like that as soon as life gets not so happy. And tbh I can't imagine anything more soul-destroying than living with a spouse who you cannot trust, who will not respect you and have your back.it would be like living with an unexploded bomb....and ow/om and your ex spouse gets to live that way bc they are not that special and none of it was about you.
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Yeah l agree, and while l sorta stood for a long time, sorta, l was always confused about that too.
lt was mainly that l'd gone into my own thing in our last few years and made a real mess of things, that l could've maybe forgive her.
As far as om's and ow's , yaknow there's another angle too, who knows what our spouses told them. ?
look what they told us, some could've been lead to believe they were saving our spouse
Like l hate to think what she even told her family, they never talked to me again.
Not that l'm making excuses for om's or ow's, a stray bus running over them would not upset me one little bit, but yaknow !
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She has BPD. The ironic thing is so does H's mother. They both portray themselves as victims no matter the situation. And I believe this was also a factor in H's antics.
OW is 21 years younger than H.
I wonder if the age difference is part of the whole going back to their childhood thing. If they view the OW like their mother, then a younger version of her may be more appropriate than one the same age as them.
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personally l don't believe they can run off and just find someone like this or that l think in most cases that might just be a coincidence . like how many women 20yrs younger you think he had to choose from sorta thing, my guess, 1.
Mine's om was everything she'd always never liked , she wouldn't have even looked at a guy like this, couldn't believe it when l saw the fkface, l almost felt bad for her even my daughter said l dunno how she kisses him.
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Hello,
I remember the pain and hurt when I discovered OM. It was the first of many betrayals. I could not stand OM. Even gave him the nickname "English Bob" and wished he would get permanent jock rot. Or that thing that Morte wrote about. The Alienator is just another broken person to which the MLCer bonds with to serve as a catalyst for the MLCer to escape and avoid. It is through them that replay is possible and life becomes real again for the MLCer. There is a lot on this thread, but this caught my eye:
That isn't on the OM/OW. That was our spouse. I truly believe if it wasn't this particular OM/OW it would be another who happened to fit the dysfunctional bill.
Yes, my w told me if it wasn't him, it would be someone else. That is true. She was looking and if you put it out that you are looking, you will find plenty of takers.
The other thing I keep forgetting is my wife was an OW as well. Once we were talking and I said, "Okay let's just accept the fact, I am a complete A-hole. What do you think about English Bob's wife, what about her?"
She looked at me, "I don't care about her. She's not my problem."
The OP doesn't see you as a person. You are an object and often from their perspective an issue that would be better if it just went away.
And tbh I can't imagine anything more soul-destroying than living with a spouse who you cannot trust, who will not respect you and have your back.
Excellent point. I think that is why I stopped standing. I also realized that if she did come back to me, it would not be because she loved me, but because she had to come back. She would settle for me and I didn't want to be option B.
(((Hugs))) and more (((Hugs)))
Ready
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Mine's om was everything she'd always never liked , she wouldn't have even looked at a guy like this, couldn't believe it when l saw the fkface, l almost felt bad for her even my daughter said l dunno how she kisses him.
OW was someone that H would normally not have gone for. So many of the things that he didn't like. But I think she came in like a victim. I have seen people on here talk about how they (H/W) arent looking for someone better but someone worse than themselves and I wholeheartedly believe that.
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From the outside looking in, the ow does not appear to be an affair down. She retired as a lieutenant from the police department at 46 years old. Has a very nice house in a ritzy, guard-gated, country club neighborhood. She's thinner than I am and has had a lot of work done. So overall, she looks better than I do. Her parents are worth a LOT of money, they seem to dote on her, and her entire family seems to just love my H. My H was her training officer 20 years ago.
I am 44 and have not have any work done. I'm heavier than I should be but I am working on that. I am a teacher and can barely make ends meet now that I'm supporting a lifestyle we built together on one income.
HOWEVER, I have met a few people that have worked with her. One comment was that the ow was one of four women my friend wouldn't let her husband (captain on the department) be alone with. Another comment was she's a "badge bunny" and has slept her way through half the department. Another comment was she has a way of giving compliments that make you feel terrible about yourself. For example, my friend is very neat and organized and the ow made a comment about her pantry and the organization. My friend was so embarrassed by the "compliment" that she said no one will ever see the inside of her pantry again. Another friend, who happens to be distantly related and spends time at their family parties, said that she and her family are money motivated. Nothing else matters but money. If you say you bought something at Target, she moves on and leaves the conversation. My H "broke up with her" because she is so self-absorbed, everything had to be her way, he always had to go to her house, she never listened to him, and if things didn't go her way she behaved like a child. The best, yet saddest, comments came from my own kids. She's loud. She's obnoxious. "Country club people need to think they're something else." I could go on and on but I don't want you to think less of my kids based on the "adjectives" they used to describe her :)
The best part is that she has two little kids. My H was DONE after we had our second. Our kids are currently 16 and 19 and H has no interest in little kids. Funny, because one of the reasons I married him is because he has such a way with the little ones. Yet, as a dad... he was pretty absent. No doubt she sees that charming "dad" side of him for her 4 year old and 11 year old. Oh, did I mention she's been married twice? Had her first born with her second husband. Took him to court multiple times a year for four years after their divorce. During the fifth year after the divorce, she had a another baby with him. That seems very strange to me.
It feels good to get this out there. I spend so much time feeling "less than" her and when I think it all through I realize I may not be perfect, but I'd never get into an affair with a married man. She did know we are married too, but was told we were done and had been done for some time. Still... she knew we were married and no divorce papers had been filed.
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l think l might need some gold in those cracks.
lt all seems so long ago these days, thank god. But this om stuff still comes for me, one reason l sometimes come back to hs , to work it through, again, only place l know where people have all been through it all and understand it.
l still want him to suffer yet still wonder who's really to blame.
Don't think l'll ever get that now but at least l made their life hell for 4yrs keeping him away from my daughter , which l'm pretty sure split them up on and off for that whole period.
l often wonder if it still effects others too, drop back and see many still here which l suppose answers that so l'm always relieved it's not just me.
l think if that om was just gone, none of it would matter anymore and what's done is done,
Envy the ones where the ow or w didn't last.
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I think that the person who made the vows and built a life and family with us...and then lied, cheated and disrespected that...is the primary person responsible tbh and where our anger and hurt should be directed. But ow/om plays their part even if they didn't cause it. Sometimes it is easier to be angry at om/ow or blame them before we are ready to feel anger and distaste for our spouse. And some ow/om do make a painful or difficult situation much worse bc of their own lack of character, disordered behaviour or their own agenda. Not all, but some.
I can't comprehend the mentality of either being a cheater or being an ow/om. Whatever you need to be able to do that, I just don't have in me. It is a kind of profound selfishness I think and a sort of shallowness...that nothing and no one else matters as long as you feel good. I think if that is your character, you will justify it however you can and it is a waste of time to expect decency or empathy from people like that. Imho it is easy to hate the ow/om...harder to come to terms with hating our spouse/ex and accepting that they humiliated and rejected us and changed our family life forever bc it made them feel good in some way.
The only comfort I find is that character does out in the end. People who are inherently selfish or lack empathy will be like that as soon as life gets not so happy. And tbh I can't imagine anything more soul-destroying than living with a spouse who you cannot trust, who will not respect you and have your back.it would be like living with an unexploded bomb....and ow/om and your ex spouse gets to live that way bc they are not that special and none of it was about you.
I couldn't agree more with everything you said treasur.
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Hi you all,
I have a question that I'd like people to comment on.
How come we (I do too often) most of the time "blame" the OW/OM for being behind stuff? I read it today on someone tread, It must be the OW who is behind taking me to court again (don't know who it was that wrote it). I'm not saying that these "people" who wants to get involved with a married man/woman is not doing it out of selfish behavior. My point is or my question is that I think it is the "mlc's" idea mostly and the OW/OM is just backing up the idea, in the same way "we" did when we was married. I'm struggling with this cause my "main" philosophy has to be that that everyone has a free will but I'm aware that addicts steal to get drugs, people in cults do some stupid stuff to etc. but to not steal, not lie, not hurt someone that should be someones core value.
I hope you understand what I'm saying.
Hugs
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Hi Pass,
If we as the LBS don't get involved in their mess, I.E. we stay out of it and stay dim or dark. We have power over the OM/OW. We are still the H/W no matter what. We only give over our power to Other M/W when we show anger and resentment or at least when they see it.
I f we can keep our emotions in check the O/M will see us as the threat !
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Hi you all,
I have a question that I'd like people to comment on.
How come we (I do too often) most of the time "blame" the OW/OM for being behind stuff? I read it today on someone tread, It must be the OW who is behind taking me to court again (don't know who it was that wrote it). I'm not saying that these "people" who wants to get involved with a married man/woman is not doing it out of selfish behavior. My point is or my question is that I think it is the "mlc's" idea mostly and the OW/OM is just backing up the idea, in the same way "we" did when we was married. I'm struggling with this cause my "main" philosophy has to be that that everyone has a free will but I'm aware that addicts steal to get drugs, people in cults do some stupid stuff to etc. but to not steal, not lie, not hurt someone that should be someones core value.
I hope you understand what I'm saying.
Hugs
I think that, in some cases, it may be motivated by:
1) Greed: When the Affair Down sees that the LBS has something that the AD wants and can't have, they may push the Mid-Lifer to "get it" for them or to get parts of it... as in "If you REALLY loved me, you'd give me <xyz>...."
2) a reinforcement of the entitlement attitude of the AD/MLC'er: "Since the LBS (your ex) has/had something, I should be able to have it too." and because the Mid-Lifer often no longer has the financial means to do it, that means trying to claw something back from the LBS and THAT usually means going to court....
3) Manipulation on part of the AD: Stoking that "Oh, you poor pitiful Mid-Lifer you. Your horrible big bad LBS made off with all the goodies and here you are stuck with nothing . Awwwwww..... Wouldn't you feel better if you got some of that back?" and thereby planting the idea that the Mid-Lifer has been wronged (yet again - after all, we ARE the enemy) by the LBS so the Mid-Lifer needs to do something to get revenge, even the score...
Having said that, in many cases the Mid-Lifer would probably NOT have the energy or motivation to actually DO this themselves, although they probably do entertain the idea regularly.... It is the extra motivation that the AD provides that gives them the extra push needed to turn thoughts/words into actions... or that the Mid-Lifer feels wronged but has no real idea how to get "revenge" until the AD comes up with a solution - the AD becomes the "fixer."
Just a few ideas that I could see being possibilities...
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UM: I think you missed the point of her question. She was asking why the LBS always blames the OW/OM for these actions rather than the MLCer. Hence the question was about LBSes, not the OPs. You are assuming that the OW/OM IS doing the pushing, and giving reasons why you think they are doing the pushing. That doesn't answer why the LBS (or even you) think that.
My own take is it is some sort of LBS fog where the LBS can't bear to blame their own spouse so they project it onto the OP. It may very well be that the OP supports the MLCer, as one would expect a partner to do, but I think that these MLCers are so out of control that no one really can control what they do, not the OP, not the LBS, and probably not even themselves. And attempting to control others is such a big part of MLC for many of them that you really have to look at them as the ones in the driver's seat. Or at least that is how I look at it.
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UM: I think you missed the point of her question. She was asking why the LBS always blames the OW/OM for these actions rather than the MLCer. Hence the question was about LBSes, not the OPs. You are assuming that the OW/OM IS doing the pushing, and giving reasons why you think they are doing the pushing. That doesn't answer why the LBS (or even you) think that.
My own take is it is some sort of LBS fog where the LBS can't bear to blame their own spouse so they project it onto the OP. It may very well be that the OP supports the MLCer, as one would expect a partner to do, but I think that these MLCers are so out of control that no one really can control what they do, not the OP, not the LBS, and probably not even themselves. And attempting to control others is such a big part of MLC for many of them that you really have to look at them as the ones in the driver's seat. Or at least that is how I look at it.
You are right.... I flipped it as to why the MLC'er might be doing the stuff for which the LBS blames the AD.... And I think you are correct that the LBS tends to blame the AD (The AD in my situation was a VERY short fling so may have kicked off the $#!tstorm but is no longer on the scene - TGF's on the other hand...) because it is inherently difficult for the LBS to reconcile the MLC version of the person formerly known as "Spouse" with the person that we remember for <x> number of years.... The two different versions are so diametrically opposed to each other, we defend our memory of the Spouse that was by apportioning the actions to the AD... THAT way we can keep the Pink Tutu (as Treasur put it) on our Mid-Lifer
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Hi Pass,
If we as the LBS don't get involved in their mess, I.E. we stay out of it and stay dim or dark. We have power over the OM/OW. We are still the H/W no matter what. We only give over our power to Other M/W when we show anger and resentment or at least when they see it.
I f we can keep our emotions in check the O/M will see us as the threat !
That's a funny thing , l was talking to ex the other day and she's normally quite chatty. But she hardly said a word just quickly answered short brief.
l worked out later she was with om ahh, they're married but she still isn't aloud to talk to me l don't think.
lt's nice to know l'm still a thorn in his side, nice sharp irritating one l hope.
Funny , once way back , one of the few times l ever saw any of ex's friends since all this , she said she talks about me all the time, l thought that was strange, anyway, that could be the thorn in om's side haaaa, love it.
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UM: I think you missed the point of her question. She was asking why the LBS always blames the OW/OM for these actions rather than the MLCer. Hence the question was about LBSes, not the OPs. You are assuming that the OW/OM IS doing the pushing, and giving reasons why you think they are doing the pushing. That doesn't answer why the LBS (or even you) think that.
My own take is it is some sort of LBS fog where the LBS can't bear to blame their own spouse so they project it onto the OP. It may very well be that the OP supports the MLCer, as one would expect a partner to do, but I think that these MLCers are so out of control that no one really can control what they do, not the OP, not the LBS, and probably not even themselves. And attempting to control others is such a big part of MLC for many of them that you really have to look at them as the ones in the driver's seat. Or at least that is how I look at it.
Yeah l agree in many ways, this is why l was never sure just what to think and feel , but eh l'll hate the om non the less. He had no problem getting involved with a married woman or in helping to break up an innocent young girls family.
So hell yeah , l blame him too .
But of course , it was my ex that gave up on her family , marriage, vows, and did this.
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My own take is it is some sort of LBS fog where the LBS can't bear to blame their own spouse so they project it onto the OP.
True for me. LBS pink tutu.
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I don't blame the OW. My H is 100% responsible for his despicable, reprehensible actions.
Having just past my 2-year "cancerversary," I also now have to 100% recognize that the truth is he vanished because he doesn't care.
And it truly is terrifying to think that I could have spent almost 2 decades with someone who is capable of just not caring. But it's not because of the OW. It's all him.
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The link below takes you to a fascinating article written about affair dynamics. It’s likely the most comprehensive article I’ve read about the affair, the AP, the fog, etc. and why it’s so hard for the wayward spouse to end it. Thought I’d share here.
https://www.emotionalaffair.org/the-four-ms-why-cheaters-cannot-leave-their-affair-partners/
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Thank you all and GG for "understanding" my question.
Even if I never thought this about my xh, everything he has done, I'm so with you Nas, "they" are 100% responsible for their actions, even if I do think the OW/OM use a lot of emotional abuse towards the mlc. Why I asked this is cause I have 2 pretty grown up sons and during these years since BD I've talked a lot about "how to be a good man" never ever abuse a woman in any way. They are getting pretty tired now of mum :-) but the oldest has always stated that; He (dad) did this by himself, He is 100% responsible for everything he has done and We (him and his brother has a choice to not do anything like that)
I don't know where I'm going with this, just that I still think we first should place 100% responsibility towards the mlc, cause he/she has also a will to say no even if I do think that the OW puts a lot of pressure/emotional abuse etc.
Hugs
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Yeah , in many ways l agree 100% , this is why l've always been so torn about it.
l was a bit of a mess in our last 3 or 4 years , and l had a few temptations handed to me on a platter. But l said no to myself , l'm married and l have my daughter to think about.
lf l could say no and ride out the storm, so could've she.
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Yes, I agree, the MLCer makes the choice alone to break his or her vows. But the OP knowingly participated in the break-up of a family. I know there are some that are duped. But mostly they are not. My H's OW knew all about me and our S(then)9. I don't place all of the blame on the OW of course. But I also didn't make a vow to her. I made that one with my MLCer. Yes he broke his. But 2 wrongs don't make a right.
And I, like you Passi, have many conversation with my boy about being there for your family, honoring your commitments, etc. How what Dad did/is doing, is not right. (But we love him anyway, yada yada yada) All in an effort to break this horrific cycle.
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I knew from the start that he was 100% responsible for his choice to manage his pain and mental health by having an affair . Him and only HIM is responsible.
Having said that , my anger/rage against the OW in my case was that she knew he was 100% married and was a father to 5 women that she had a relationship with. She was in my home , she was at family functions , she knew my daughters since they were small children. She dared to ask my daughters questions ( are your mom and dad going on vacation? How is your mom doing) while she was having an affair with their father . The pain that created in my girls is the actions of a selfish, evil and vacant human. That's where my rage sits... she should have just spit on them..thats how littled she cared. I guarantee I would have done much better healing etc , if he had have gotten involved with a stranger . ...anyone but her. Someone that I did not know . I hope karma drives the biggest bus ever ... Yes, I can still feel it.
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I give/gave OM alot of the fault for what happened. I knew that XW was at fault as she was the married one, she was my W. At the end of the day though, it takes 2 to Tango and BOTH are at fault for what happened BOTH knew exactly what they were doing. I mean, if I were at the Gym and a 28 year old Girl with a trained Body kept complimenting me and showing interest then I may have became weak too. There is always a Chance, I think under the right/wrong circumstances we could all stray. We are all human, if my XW can do it then anybody can but she wouldnt have even thought of it if OM wasnt in her face everyday.
Both are at fault.
https://www.emotionalaffair.org/the-four-ms-why-cheaters-cannot-leave-their-affair-partners/
"Dont make a fool of yourself being faithful to someone who isnt" that is a Quote from the link, Heavy. Very heavy but ist how I felt for the first 6-12 months pre BD. Like a fool >:(
I hope karma drives the biggest bus ever ... Yes, I can still feel it.
I bet you can barbie and so you should. None of this is easy and having the OP "around" is horrific.
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I agree with everything Kit and Whyus said. That's how I feel about H and OW. I'm not, not blaming my H for his affair (if that makes sense!), I know he was the married one and had the choice, but my OW knew he was married, admitted in an email I saw that she did in fact push him to leave us and if it was up to my H, he would still be at home. In another one of her emails: 'If I had not believed so much in our relationship, I know it would have ended that first time.'
When I get mad at the OW, I'm not excusing my H, I mean I've written many threads complaining about my H, but there is no excuse for chasing a married man. That would be akin to letting my girls think that they don't have a responsibility to stay away from other people's spouses. That as long as they are single, the onus is all on the married person. I'm not giving the OW a free pass. They are both guilty, guilty, guilty. I know many on this site don't like to hear this, but this is how I view it.
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I don't think it is an Either/Or tbh.
Our spouses broke commitments and hurt us and others by doing so.
But ow/om made their choices too without regard for the damage caused to others.
Imho it's ok to judge and feel angry when people behave selfishly and badly...whether they are a stranger or not. Our emotions may be more personal if we know them (or are married to them) but as Milly says, no free pass here either.
And in some cases, more common with ow it seems, they do bring their own agenda and disordered character into the situation. MLCers may be influenced by that but of course they are still responsible for their own actions. But so are ow who stalk LBS or lie or threaten or steal or abuse or use children as objects of control. Behaving badly is the responsibility of an individual....plenty of room to judge all of them it seems to me :)....and the LBS has the right, here and in RL, to call it out for what it is. Particularly when there is often so much pressure in RL to STFU and not make a 'fuss' or not be the 'scorned' spouse who can't 'forgive' or 'move on'. We have the right to feel angry when people behave badly; we have the responsibility to choose wisely what we do with those feelings. Jmo.
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My XH married the ow, apparently she's always making sarcastic comments about me being the 'love of his life' it also seems she doesn't 'trust' him and feels very insecure in regards to me she obviously feels threatened, although she shouldn't because there is no chance in hell I will ever be reuniting with him.
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As Barbie says – H was 100% responsible for choosing to deal with his pain and depression by having an affair. An I understand this even more now that I have taken off his pink tutu - really should have done it sooner as now he is left with unsightly tan lines ;)
However I have lots of anger toward OW. H worked away from home during the week and if he had met someone where he worked, given her the ‘My wife doesn’t understand me’ speech I would have felt less betrayed. OW in my case was a friend, someone I spent time with and someone I confided in when I was going through a rough patch with reactive depression due to illness. She ghosted me and began love bombing H.
She even had the cheek, when H left, to ask mutual friends how I was doing saying how sad she was to hear we had separated and reminding people that we used to be good friends. A friend said ‘You know how appoachable Enyo is – why don’t you ask her’ to which she replied ‘Enyo frightens me’ – says it all!
She may not be responsible for his choices but she definitely coached him through leaving and our separation as some of his reasons and justifications are pure OW.
I am not a vindictive person but a plague of boils dropped off by the Karma bus wouldn’t go amiss now would it!
Enyo X
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I place much more of the blame on my H. OW definitely has a part. But H in my case should have manned up - said no, left the situation. Regardless if we were having disagreements.
In my case I didn't know OW. She came out of the woodworks (or actually the scum of the earth). Most likely she was introduced to H by one of his band buddies. She was probably around for some time and I didn't know it. Probably some groupie that had a hard on for him......In any case, H had a choice. And he made it.
With that said, hopefully as we evolve and mature, we will be able to realize, acknowledge and admit we made mistakes. And move forward as a much wiser person. I've made mistakes. (nothing as huge as this!) But I learned from them and do better now. And I'm grateful to getting a second chance. Right now, I'm open to and believe in second chances. But that could change for me.
MLC or not. H made a decision to lay with OW, be with OW and continues that decision as of today, 4+ years later.......
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She may not be responsible for his choices but she definitely coached him through leaving and our separation as some of his reasons and justifications are pure OW.
Yup,,in my case too. Coaching a married man on how to leave his wife for her own selfish reasons. This is one of the biggest reasons these women will always be an affair down.
Doesn’t mean h isn’t fully responsible for his actions ,,,he is. He let himself be influenced and lured by a seriously character flawed woman. He has to own that while ow will likely dance off to find her next victim when it all crashes down.
It’s not in my nature to hate people, but I do hate his ow. She is a key participant in the destruction of my M. Tough not to hate someone like that.
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I may be one of the rare people here who thinks my H and OW will go the distance. I do think she "coached" him in some way as he was leaving me, but she also left her H, so he probably did his own form of "coaching." In the end, they are two broken people who seek outside validation and they found it in each other and somehow the cards were in their favor.
I obviously don't wish her well, but she's never met me and only knows what H told her about me. To her, I'm just a person out there in the world who she's never met and can easily turn a blind eye to. She's a garbage person for hurting me for her own selfish reasons, but there are garbage people all over this world. My H is the one who made vows to me. My H is the one who was supposed to have my back. My H is the one who abandoned me. OW is garbage, but to me, H is worse. I always considered myself pretty "street smart" with a really good b.s. detector, but I was naive to the kind of selfishness that could exist in people until this happened.
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Does anyone want to continue this discussion by starting a new Discussion thread?
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My own take is it is some sort of LBS fog where the LBS can't bear to blame their own spouse so they project it onto the OP. It may very well be that the OP supports the MLCer, as one would expect a partner to do, but I think that these MLCers are so out of control that no one really can control what they do, not the OP, not the LBS, and probably not even themselves. And attempting to control others is such a big part of MLC for many of them that you really have to look at them as the ones in the driver's seat. Or at least that is how I look at it.
I think like many of the spectrums on this website this is another area where behaviours are on a 'spectrum'.
At the far end we have the LBS blames everything on the OW, all the MLCer's love and affection is buried, if we could just get rid of the OP then he would come running home...we shall call this 'pink tutu' syndrome.
On the other side you have LBS anger and rage. Everything is solely the MLCer's fault, they are to blame, they completely changed, they flipped out...they do it all because they are evil. We shall call this 'monster hunting'.
The truth as always will lie somewhere in between, and where each LBS is will vary on the spectrum both now and over time.
So to say that the OM/OW has no influence over the MLC is impossible. All partners/family/friends have an influence on you. People you sleep with definitely do. The OM/OW is invested in this 'relationship' for what they get out of it. Be it money, adoration, career advancement, or just wanting to win. It doesn't matter. They will have a voice that pokes at the MLCer and urges them to do what they want and what they have a vested interest in. Same as a married couple do, though probably a bit more selfish by both of them.
The MLCer will have a choice. They can feed the angry demon raging inside of them, and say ''Om/Ow is right! I deserve this...'' and go after it using the AP encouragement to feed their own desire. They can think ''I am not really sure, I think OM/OW is just jealous'' and maybe drag their feet. Or perhaps they decided OM/OW has no say in the matter so they just nod and listen until the whining/b!tc#ing gets to much...so they inch the progress along just enough to get them off their back.
It is to complex to just say ''it is all AP fault'' or ''it was always my MLCer's choice''. It is their choice ultimately, but their heads are a foggy mess and the closest person to them at this moment is the AP. The AP does have influence over them, and does ultimately guide or nag their decisions to some degree. Some MLCers will see that for what it is, some will go with the flow, and some will have fights to tell them to back off. That is probably due to a MLCer's individual nature and how far they are still in the limerance stage (or whatever term you'd like to use for schmoopie ville).
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If they have all this uncontrollable 'rage' inside them why do they take it out on their families, and not the O W/M?? how long can they keep it up? doesnt their mask fall occasionally to give the OP a glimpse of their not so perfect selves???
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If they have all this uncontrollable 'rage' inside them why do they take it out on their families,
Guilt guilt guilt and it's easier to look back and blame someone than it is to look at the current situation and take responsibility.
Locking this thread and you are welcome to start a new one if anyone wants to.
New thread: https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=10960.0