[Rollercoasterider]

For many the affair is the big issue that is driving MLC. Sure it causes other issues that are more often more serious, but it’s the affair the we notice, that we focus on and that may have accused our initial shock and pain.
You have fear, anger, frustration, curiosity… Who is this person? Who could do such a thing? Why would they do such a thing? How can they care so little for your family, for what they are destroying?
Are they a terrible person? Do they have some serious character flaws? They seem to lack empathy for you and how they are hurting you (perhaps like your MLCer), does this mean they have a personality disorder?

Focusing on the alienator is not something I recommend. I also don’t recommend that you focus on MLC—says the person who has spent years researching and writing about it!

Once one has a basic understanding of MLC, just look forward and move forward.

I love how Lawprofessor said that because her words were simple, concise and direct. I think the same thinking can be applied to the alienator. Give the alienator enough attention so that you can let go and stop giving her or him the attention. It’s normal to obsess in the beginning—even if normal is not healthy. But you are normal and what you are doing is part of how you get through from just normal to normal and healthy. Not everything we give attention to leads to our healing—we could heal without knowing some stuff, but it’s still part of the typical process of healing.
I just want you to know that you are not crazy because you are going crazy over the alienator—or other stuff! You are normal.

This thread is for you to let us and others like you know how you are feeling. I want you to feel safe here. It’s okay to not like the alienator and talk about it. It’s okay to be confused how you feel about the alienator—on DB we had a situation where the alienator was the LBSs kid sister—yes, kid—maybe 20. The alienator may be a narcissistic and vindictive mate poacher who deliberately goes after married men for pleasure. Or another MLCer—like yours. Or a stupid and naïve young thing who doesn’t get that marriages don’t just end easily because someone new comes along and that relationships don’t typically last when they are founded on betrayal. Being an alienator can make a person act in ways out of their norm; it can be crazy-making and some alienators were already at crazy. Some behaviors may be similar and yet within the norm for some and out of it for others.

Please let’s keep this civilized. I am not trying to stifle your emotions, please express yourself, but moderators will be on hand if anything gets out of line. And be nice to each other too!

I’ll start with a bit about the alienator from my situation.

• She was older—8 years older than me and 1 year older than Chuck.
• She worked with him at a retirement home and was fired soon after the emotional affair began.
• She had an 18 year-old daughter who lived at home, worked as a stripper and had a drug problem. The daughter had a baby a couple years into the MLC/Affair.
• Some of you avoid using the alienator’s name. That’s not really an option since she has a name that is quite popular…one of Chuck’s cousins shares that name along with the mother of Jesus. So now you know it too. It made that part a bit easier since I had to face it and say it for others whose energy was not negative in my life.
• She faked a pregnancy the first time he left her—early in the affair. (Aug 2005)
• He left her again and was worried she would be at his work waiting for her early the next morning, so it was my job to keep her on the phone when she called to scream at him—while he drove to work. I talked to her for a few hours—I said a few choice things at first, then stopped and I kid you not, counseled the alienator for about 3 hours—phone died and she called back. That was weird.
• Later she told him she had something wrong with her brain and would not fix it—and would die—unless he returned to her. (Dec 2005)
• While Chuck was at home (living) with me she texted him and said he HAD TO come and take her to the emergency room. She refused to call an ambulance (her need was real) or go to her parent’s house—they lived on the same block. Instead, she called her married boyfriend who lived 20 minutes away and was home with his wife—sitting next to him telling her what was going on! This was so absurd to me that I was able to laugh at it. (Dec 2005)
• After he broke up left her again (6th? Time) she came to our house, drove around the block (through our private back alley) several times. Banged on the front door. Then went into the alley again and trespassed into our backyard. The cops arrived to find her on our back deck banging on the sliding glass door—with me and a frantic Te’Amo (German Shepherd) on the other side of the door.
• She was a Certified Nursing Assistant and later got a job at a local hospital in the cardiac ward. In the last year (2008) of Chuck’s MLC his mom was on that floor of the hospital and the alienator showed up in his mom’s room. As I understand it, the family was upset and confused. I was not there—his family is so private that married-ins are not welcome to visit at the hospital.

I am not a doctor or a mental health professional, so I cannot diagnose, but that does not mean I do not think a Personality Disorder—BPD—may be part of the mix here. I don’t think this was how she was because she was caught up in the infatuation of an affair; I think this was how she was before Chuck came along, but it’s not something I know with facts…just my sense of it.

Was I angry at her? Probably, but what I really felt was a lot of eye-rolls regarding her behavior and found the situation easy to laugh at. She was so much a clear Affair Down that I stopped feeling scared pretty quickly. This changed how I acted—I did not take on the part of the scorned and instead was confident. I also made a very deliberate effort not to be disrespectful of her. How? I was very clear with Chuck that I did not want him to be disrespectful to her. He would sneak out of her house when he moved out and the first time I told him to go break up with her in person. After that I had to drop it because he refused, but both he and she knew that was his doing, not mine. Why? Not out of respect for her personally, but because if you treat one woman like that you can treat any woman like that. She knew—he must have told her—it was me who said he needed to face her instead of sneak out.

Okay, it’s your turn.

[Evermore]

Thanks for this thread RCR. I wish I could laugh at the situation I find myself in but it's just far far too painful. But then my husband left me a week after meeting this woman in the local pub and has been full steam ahead with her ever since (no returns from him and apparently no regrets).

I suspect (would like to believe?) that for him it is limerence and for her BPD. But I just don't know. The things I have heard about her from others that know her (including her ex BF) suggest that she has... issues (in general and with past relationships), but my H can't speak more highly of her and is very protective of her.

He now lives with her (since Dec18/Jan19?) and recently transferred a car he bought into joint names with her. Our family (I'm very very close to his family) has only seen her and him a handful of times and they all say 'she seems nice'. Whilst I know that she will have been on her best behaviour during these times it's still incredibly hurtful to me that they don't hate her and tell me how horrible she is. I know that's ridiculous, but feelings often don't comply with logic do they. 

What I'd really like to know from anyone with experience of BPD relationships, is 'can they hide it?'. An, if so, for how long? Everything I've read about BPD relationships makes it fairly clear that they are generally short lived. But what I'd like to know is whether signs would already be appearing and my H (due to halo effect/limerence?) is simply ignoring them for now. Or is she able to hide her disorder because it's all going so well for her right now? How do these relationships evolve time-wise? I don't think I know anyone IRL that is BPD (although knowing what I know now I think my step-mother was) so it's all unknown to me except from what I read on the internet.

Many people here have said to me that 'it doesn't matter'... and maybe it doesn't. But, to me, it would explain how this relationship went from 0 to 1000 in five minutes. It would explain why this woman is clinging to my H. It would explain why she didn't care that he was married (despite telling him he should 'work on his marriage' she did anything but allow that to happen). And it might also give some insight into how the relationship might go. And that DOES matter to me. I'm human, and I hurt. And I can't help hating that she 'has my husband'.

[Tyks]

Rollercoaster, wow that was some other woman you had to deal with. What I don't get is why some other women are like that and some seem to be "perfect"?

In my case when I found out about the ow I emailed her the next day of course calling her a homewrecker and this and that. Her email back to me was that she was not a homewrecker and that he loved me. She was playing it up as if she was helping him to work through his issues, the ones that I didn't know he had. She told me she would quit her job (she was his coworker) and she would not talk to him again. This never happened. I believe we would have worked it out if not for her hanging on to her knight in shining armour.

Fast forward almost three years (three years in August) they now live together. I had to drop my daughter off yesterday (she lives with them) so of course I've been monkey braining since 430 this am.

Her car was in the driveway, his on the road (small driveway). Looks like an average home. They rent mind you BC he left everything with me. I hate going there but I have to learn how to deal with it if I want to see my daughter more (we live on opposite sides of the city so she needs rides more often) . That was the second time I went there and I really don't know how to deal with it.

This ow and I have never had contact except that one email that I initiated. She doesn't cause me any problems (except stealing my h) and we basically just live as if each other doesn't exist.

Why do some ows cause so many problems and other just gleefully live their lives with their new MAN? No cares in the world for what they have helped to erase (years of marriage) . I can't stand the fact that they appear to be living a normal life. If I obsses this much does that mean that she does the same thing? Oh how sometimes I wish I could be a fly on the wall.

[Songanddance]

Whilst I know that she will have been on her best behaviour during these times it's still incredibly hurtful to me that they don't hate her and tell me how horrible she is. I know that's ridiculous, but feelings often don't comply with logic do they. 

No it's not ridiculous to have those feelings.  That part of the family has been placed in an awkward situation and they don't want to take sides.  They probably find her nice because at this still very early stage that is the game she is playing.  She believes she can become your replacement - her  logic is flawed and sooner or later this too shall pass.  Your family is probably embarrassed and most of us when placed in this awkward situation will remain civil, polite and wait to see what happens but most certainly not get involved - it's call self preservation.

What I'd really like to know from anyone with experience of BPD relationships, is 'can they hide it?'. An, if so, for how long? Everything I've read about BPD relationships makes it fairly clear that they are generally short lived. But what I'd like to know is whether signs would already be appearing and my H (due to halo effect/limerence?) is simply ignoring them for now. Or is she able to hide her disorder because it's all going so well for her right now? How do these relationships evolve time-wise? I don't think I know anyone IRL that is BPD (although knowing what I know now I think my step-mother was) so it's all unknown to me except from what I read on the internet.

This is what RCR is referring to in the first post - the need to know and the feeling that you have to understand the dynamics of this relationship.  It is normal and part of your self growth.  There will come a time when you will be able to step back and see this part of the crisis for what it is - escape and avoid on the part of your MLCer.  You will hear that she is a sticking plaster and a symptom of his crisis and for the first few months maybe even couple of years - you will not find that helpful.  But it's true.
My H's OW lasted 3.5 years and she was "Lovely" for the first 18 months/2 years and then the gloss wore off and H began to feel drained and controlled.  Once I had totally got who and what she was and once I was (with help from my T) able to zone out any triggers -my life picked up and moved onto a higher level.   I cared so little that I it wasn't until after about 5 months after their break up that I realised they had broken up. 

And that DOES matter to me. I'm human, and I hurt. And I can't help hating that she 'has my husband'.

Of course it matters.  I think you may have misunderstood what the intent is behind the phrase " she doesn't or the affair doesn't matter"   It does and always will do but it is how you respond to it that matters.  The hurt doesn't go away - it lessens and with the compassion that we have we begin to see the affair for what it really is and then the hurt may go away but the memory will be sustained.  If we are still obssessing over the affair many many months in then we are beginning to hurt ourselves; that stunts our own growth and our ability to move forward (not ON- I hate it when people say "move on" ).

I found that if I became a student of MLC first and then affair partners I could begin to develop a degree of logic.  Don't get me wrong - I collapsed in the therapist's office 5 months after BD because I couldn't cope even though I had started "studying". You will find that you will go up and down with this...let it process and eventually you will be able to step back and be on a more even and detached keel in your thinking.

[Songanddance]

This is a copy of the letter OW sent me 3 weeks after BD. I knew her and unwittingly had brought her and H together in a show.
She was married herself but was going through separation procedure with her H. Bizarrely my H and her H would have dinner together with her and their children and her H accepted my H as the new man in her life.  He even told my H " You have her - I couldn't make her happy - perhaps you can do a better job?"

“Dear S&D..
I realise that a lot has been said and written (meaning she has read H’s BD  letter to me)
And I felt that it was time that I should write things from my perspective. You are under no obligation to read it but I wanted…. to cover the points in a rational manner and in a way that you could digest them at a pace you are happy with.

I would first of all like to say that I never set out to have any feelings for H ….but I am unable to ignore the force that has put us together and forged a union that has taken me completely by surprise.

I did not set out to hurt anybody and have not asked anything of H that he has not willingly given… I will support him in the situation that he needs to be in to be able to be at peace with himself whether that is with me or you………(long info about her finance and current H and her medical issues…)

……Family is one of the most important things to me and I am always the one to provide, my H and I agreed early on that we would not stay together for the sake of the children and I believe that you should stay in a marriage because you want to be with the other person…….you have to be someone that the other person wants to be with… it is not an automatic right because you have made vows…

I have always been quite private and found attention difficult……. In your H I have found someone where I am completely able to be myself…. He brings out the best in me and we are very positive together….. As much as it hurts me for my family to be broken like this…..

(she then expands on how “private” she is….and how she is leaving her H because he doesn’t want to join her “journey” of self discovery)
He is aware that his decision is a major flaw…. As much as he may wish to be he is not the right companion for me at this stage…I very much hope that I can continue my journey with H(mine)

I do not want you to think that I have taken these steps lightly or without a lot of soul searching… It is inevitable that people will be hurt but is it right (now paraphrasing because her sentence is far too long) for one to sacrifice his (ie my H) happiness simply out of duty – it is very selfish of the other (ie ME S&D) to expect that.

If you would like to meet to discuss this then I am happy to do so.. I’m sorry if you feel that I have intruded but I am …. A helpful person and care deeply for others often to my own detriment.

I do not ask anything for me…..but I do ask this for H as it is tearing him apart and I will support him with whatever he needs.


Hopefully this has helped some of you understand what some alienators are like......

[Treasur]

I think it requires a lot of emotional discipline to not engage or speculate or feel strong emotions about the ow. Our logic tells us that she is a stranger, not our 'problem' to deal with and perhaps simply a symptom of a changed spouses desire for a new self/life. That really she is not our business.

Yet this stranger - at a minimum - played a significant part in destroying your life and family for no other reason than bc it gave them something they wanted. And in some cases, doing that is not enough but they also stalk, threaten, badmouth or steal from you albeit with the collusion of your spouse. And many ow in particular do try quite hard to pull the LBS into whatever triangulated story they are telling themselves and others. My xh's ow has frequently said things claiming to speak on his behalf, some pretty awful and some about our own history together. It is impossible to know what is true or false when my h/xh chose not to speak for himself hardly at all of course. It feels like a cruel attack bc it is a cruel attack; my only redress was as my father used to say to 'not let them see you sweat' by ignoring and blocking and using the law where appropriate. But I have often wanted to scream, throw things and punch people. It is sometimes very frustrating to feel abused by a stranger without being able to have a voice that feels heard, even when your brain keeps telling you that ignoring them and their life is the very best thing.

Sometimes tbh it feels as if your spouses sees you as an enemy to be destroyed and ow, along with other folks or family members, are part of an army against you. For me, for instance, the few family members who were at his marriage to ow who knew me/us for years were passively saying that they found it acceptable for me to be threatened, stolen from, gaslit and ignored when I was grieving and ill. As long as my h was 'happy'. I have said and done nothing but that is not ok to me and will never be ok. They should feel ashamed of every meal they had at my table, every bit of family support I provided, every gift, every card...but they won't bc it is easier and they do not care what happens to me either. So, ow/om is part of our occasional need to vent but for many it also includes family or friends who betrayed us too. No contact can end up being a pretty broad scythe 

I suppose my hope is that if ow is a bit disordered (from the facts or actions you can see without getting into complicated diagnoses lol) ignoring them is a bit like Tinkerbell in Peter Pan, that being ignored as unimportant is their kryptonite.

[Keep believing]

I have heard my h ow is really a very nice person and a really good mom. h has told me how sweet she is.  How do you deal with that? Does not sound like a perssonality disorder of any kind. . or the typical affair down, ..She beleived h was getting a divorce from me. thats it end of story.   He then has that right to date whom ever he chooses. He was done with me.

[Treasur]

Well, your h lies of course...to you, to others, to her too evidently. So who knows? As a general rule, 'sweet' women probably shouldn't sleep with married men of course....
In a way, it doesn't matter. On a positive, it means if she is, then you are not likely to be stalked or the recipient of insane letters like the one Song posted. She will just keep her head down and stay away from you.

Ah, I see Song that this woman was sleeping with your husband and hurting two families essentially as an act of helpful support eh? What a delusional self centred fruit basket.

It is right and truthful that our anger about the affair should be focused on our spouse. It is also true that I deeply resent the many times, sometimes known sometimes not, when this stranger inserted herself into my life without my knowledge or invitation. Their relationship is their business now he is my xh, but our relationship was our business before then. So, no, I don't think much about her or their relationship but I am not a fan of her as a human being. Which I think is just fine. 

[sachat3]

I didn’t initially have a huge problem with Ow because I believe I managed to kick H out (because he was being a twonk so I thought I would kick him out for a day or two. He’d come back be fine blah blah) before any affair could start. I don’t believe anything happened before he left. So I don’t feel “betrayed” by her.

However, I did everything wrong. I won’t lie. I found out they had met for coffee so I messaged her on Instagram and gave her what for. I even called her a s!ag. I told her we had split up the day before I messaged her. (I lied because I thought it would force her to leave him alone - I know I know!) I can’t remember the exact words she used but she said something to me, in this initial exchange “Woman to woman why do you even want to be with someone who clearly doesn’t want to be with you. I get you have a family but give it up” which ofcourse coloured my view of her. She then told me to concentrate on my “ugly feral children”. Again back is truly up. H then was rushed to hospital and she was with him. Her text ended with “don’t worry he’s alive just about” so I’m thinking it’s serious. But it wasn’t anything near that bad. I then spent a fair wack of time I won’t lie meddling in their relationship. Probably until around 4 months after BD. And she still clung to him and I remember thinking about her “WHY ARE YOU SO DESPERATE FOR MY H” “WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU” that type of thing. H had been unfaithful to Ow with me so I did take great pleasure in telling her this (I know I know!) and she still stick around. I think that’s when I worked out. Nothing I do will split them up. So Around 4-5 months after BD I gave up completely. Never contacted her. Never tried to meddle. Never did anything or the sort. I left them to it. What’s funny to note, is despite me not mentioning her directly or indirectly. My social media is being stalked within a inch of its life and Ow constantly baits me online. I don’t rise to it. She’s started buying the same clothes as me and wearing them. She’s started morphing into me.

I know for a fact that my H is a minimum of her fourth spoken for man. So to speak. And they tend to be people she works with. She’s now with the same company but moved to a different location. So my guess is once someone else comes along it’ll be bye bye H. She will keep him for now as he’s better than nobody but I know H doesn’t trust her due to comments I’ve made and his reaction to it.

I used to feel very much anger towards her. I would have happily walked past her body if she was on flames. Whereas now I just feel sorry for her. She must have such low self esteem issues to still be with H. But that’s her bed she made.

[Silver]

Keep believing, I don't know, I don't believe it's ALWAYS an affair down situation. I just posted in my thread about OM, which seems to be good guy to be honest.
Then again, he wasn't the initial alienator, not even the second, maybe 3rd and got into a picture after our divorce (immediately after, I don't believe they wouldn't had between them before that but I do believe XW lied to him about us).

It's a bit confusing, I thought it's always obvious affair down situation but it's not, that makes me think too that maybe my XW wasn't MLCer after all?! Still I know she is, done ALL the script, played by the book, very obvious.