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I totally understand your point : you ask your wife to heal before you can go back to a marriage relationship, right ? Only that, your W says she does not know  what to do, and it looks like to me she is expecting your support/direction/advice. She is already doing IC since a long time, so I can not see what she could do better or differently right now ?
Usually we LBS should not give advices because our sposes under MLC don't want advices and don't ask for them. But this time it is different, no ? What do you think about it ?

Hey FH  :D
She has to answer and figure it out on her own...... I really do feel for her right here, but I'm not the answer.
Her core problem is so multifaceted...... and the real issue is - she can't go back. There STILL is no woman for her to learn from (no role model) and thus she has to figure it out on her own and make her best guess with everything she is TODAY.

The thing is, there is no answer to her problem..... and it can't be solved or avoided. That's the solution (IMO). The only thing which really exists is now.... not yesterday and not tomorrow..... now. She can't live in either of those places anymore and neither can I.

When she says "I don't know what to do or how to proceed", well of course she doesn't. When she was young, she needed good women to teach her how to be a woman and how to be a wife...... didn't happen. Just like young men (and boys) need good men to teach them how to be good men and husbands. Everyone needs direct teaching, learning by observation, and correction by those wiser than us....... remove that and you end up with lost people with these big holes in their understanding.
She can't get the past back nor can she undo her early life damage or learn all the needed lessons from missing women, and so she'll have to make her best guess with her new understanding and maturity brought forth by pain (just like we abandoned/betrayed have to also).

Sooooooo..... what I'm looking for is: the realization that she is broken (check), the understanding that her screwed up head stems from the distant past and with it a screwed up heart and perspective (check), genuine remorse for all the screwed up things and choices she's made (being checked now), realization that there's nothing she can do about the past and the maturity to accept what today is and move forward (starting to be checked), a choosing as to what she is going to be/life choice (not checked).

I think it's a very difficult thing for anyone to finally look at themselves and see all which is there (the missing pieces) without filling in the gaps, glossing over, justifying, telling stories, lying....... we are what we are (MLC'er and LBS) and no more than that.

A reoccurring theme of (healed) MLC'ers is "I bear scars"..... which (IMO) is a great sign of maturity and understanding..... a lack of a need to be flawless and perfect and unspoiled.
The wisest of old people I knew growing up, all had a defining characteristic about admitting their flaws and mistakes....... not that they could change them, but that their experiences were a part of them and changed them into someone who could understand. It was these flaws and mistakes and wisdom which made them into someone capable of teaching and guiding. Sadness and regret was there but also an acceptance of what can't be changed, along with a desire to improve, help and atone (thru their mentorship, teaching and guidance).   

LBS all needs this too. I myself bear scars, oh yes I do. Deep ones. Doesn't matter how they arrived, or who inflicted them..... they're here. Lucky for me, they are mine and thus I have power over them: they are not some outside force controlling me. I have pain of what has been lost because of the love given to another (just like all LBS) but I can only be stuck if I do not move forward from the past and accept that what has happened in my life has already happened. It only happens again and again if I live in the past - and people live in the past because they can't resolve that it can't be different.
This is how (I believe) we can forgive...... the hurt and pain is in the past - it is "there" and not "here". Today is today. This is too where the MLC'er has to get..... "today". The MLC'er lives in the past and tries to escape it by leaping into an alternate "future", the LBS lives in the past and tries to reconstruct a path back to a present which no longer exists (until it is finally abandoned). In both cases (IMO) the answer is arriving at "now" with the full knowledge and understanding of the past and ourselves and the revealing of our scars to ourselves and others. Then the "now" is here and a future can be chosen and plotted.

Our Community / Help please 4
« Latest by Helpnewc on Today at 03:40:34 AM »
I agree.

No accountability. It is the craziest thing I have ever experienced.
Our Community / Help please 4
« Latest by UrsaMajor on Today at 02:22:08 AM »
As long as she is looking for excuses to justify her actions, you can expect to get monstered at.

You have recognized your part in what was wrong previously and have taken steps to remedy/apologize for those things. She has, in turn, chosen to end the relationship. That is her choice and she will have to deal with the consequences of her actions.

As for the complaints about delaying, your answer was perfect. What you don't have tor do not know about, you can't disclose. If she has a problem with that, she needs to ensure her lawyer has ALL the correct information and not just what she thinks is the correct information.

The rest is just

self-justifications to blame you for her choices/actions
Our Community / Help please 4
« Latest by Helpnewc on Today at 12:53:52 AM »
A pretty $h!te day. She would not talk to me this morning so I knew she was agitated. She came at me hard about non disclosure and delay. I simply said I can’t give you what I don’t have.

Then a whole lot of stuff about how she just wants to be alone on her terms as she got sick of being alone with me. I just said. I was sorry but I was not that man anymore as I have worked on my stuff. And that I don’t want to be alone but wanted to be part of a family. I then just accepted that was her decision to make and I accepted it.

I said I would not be alone as I would be with my girls part of the time and I was looking forward to that.  She just said I had killed the relationship by not being kind to her and not participating in family life. I said I had made mistakes and I was sorry.

The whole thing is nuts. There is nothing rational going on but there is nothing I can do but be accepting and loving.

But I will fight for my children. Absolutely.
Our Community / Not new, but still learning about this!
« Latest by UrsaMajor on Today at 12:30:49 AM »
lol Ursa, Consequences eh - how inconvenient?

Yeah, she wanted the whole vacation... no matter that then I wouldn't get a holiday with my kids for the second year running. She saw sense in the end but wasn't that happy about it. I've not heard any complaints about it for a couple of weeks but it will be stored in the bank to refer to later no doubt!

I got that this Easter too... Last Easter, MLCxW took the kids for the entire 3 weeks and went to the Maldives with them... This year, I took them to the US to visit their grandparents (my parents), my cousin and their Stepsister (my D33) and MLCxW complained that I took them the entire holiday... uhmmmmm .....

So, it was OK for her to have them for the 3 weeks but not OK for me? I just mentioned that was the same as the previous year with the Maldives and that was the end of the whine-fest....
Our Community / Helping Me in this MLC 8
« Latest by rosetintedglasses on September 25, 2023, 02:56:33 PM »

Great that you are updating, the site will appreciate it.

We’ve been friends throughout so it’s strange for me to see your entire journey like this. A privilege actually. Not that either, any, of us would want this journey.

I am so glad you have peace. That it has continued and that things are looking good. You deserve it so much. I must say thank you here for your support to me. Not only were you going through this yourself but you ALWAYS had time to check in on me. To support me. To be there for me. It saved me and I will always remember you being there. When my husband left it was you I privately messaged first. I knew you’d understand. And it was you who messaged back about ten times each day helping me through. You were there and I really appreciate it.

It’s a shame we both didn’t reach the prize of peace (yet..?). But I am so glad you did. It’s hard for the men, especially worrying about their children as the wife gets the first slot there and when they are in MLC that’s scary.

You privately messaged me by mistake at the beginning asking advice, you thought I was someone else on the forum - the best mistake ever!

For me hearing you say PA doesn’t mean anything is huge as that was really really hard for you at the time (obviously). Also interesting to hear you say W had depression for 2 years (is that what you said?) staring at the walls etc which would be liminality so she’s followed the stages. Only wish my H would, he is 7 years in too. And still in replay. I don’t think he’ll ever leave MLC. We were similar in our stories to begin with too. The paths are all so different. I truly feel like I’ve been tortured and still can’t believe any of it.

There have been a couple of wife MLCers who have come through, BBHELP too of course.

Also I remember you saying we were all going on a cruise one day…only one seat for me - but I’m up for it!

You are a wise one now, thank you for paying it forward.
Rose 🌹
Our Community / Not new, but still learning about this!
« Latest by Biscuit on September 25, 2023, 01:30:30 PM »
lol Ursa, Consequences eh - how inconvenient?

Yeah, she wanted the whole vacation... no matter that then I wouldn't get a holiday with my kids for the second year running. She saw sense in the end but wasn't that happy about it. I've not heard any complaints about it for a couple of weeks but it will be stored in the bank to refer to later no doubt!

Great to have you back,SS....  and thanks for sharing.

« Latest by xyzcf on September 25, 2023, 06:30:01 AM »
And I do realize that I only get thrown off kilter due to my own issues of continuing to hope. Hope has always been a survival tactic I had to adopt in childhood when reality was just too grim to fathom and it is difficult to abandon such tactics no matter how counter productive they are in my adult life.

Perhaps it depends on what the "hope" is for or if it is possible to have hope and yet understand that the outcome might still not be the one you desired. I personally would not like to live with out hope, in many aspects of my life, especially as I am aging and dealing with some medical issues....I think hope can also be a positive thing because without it, the world becomes a very dismal place.

But I see how it can damage us, clinging too hard to the one and only outcome that we feel will alleviate all the pain, and make everything better. Letting go of the outcome, whatever that might be, accepting that this person is no longer the man you were married to, letting go of all expectations is how I survive, but always allowing for some hope.

Most likely this comes from my faith. Although I often question why God has not answered my prayers, my faith directs me in a couple of ways. To be kind to my husband (love one another as I have loved you)  that God is in charge, that I can trust God's plan for my life (that's a hard one since I would like to be in charge) and that nothing is impossible for God.

I have recently become aware of several friends whose husbands have been institutionalized with dementia, or have died from cancer. They have lost their husbands too....somehow, we all get to adjust to losing the person who was so very important to our life.

I also have a few friends whose husbands have become very unkind, and they are terribly hurt by spouses who treat them poorly....

Finally, after many many years, I "learned"..he does not want me in his life. Even with the contact that we have, he does not want me...and so I guess after many many times of "hoping" I walk away. There is still sadness, other old timers I have spoken to also say that they still are sad even those in other relationships..... it never completely goes away.

It does deserve a better ending....I watched my mother never recovering and it broke my heart for her and I have been fighting and trying to not let it destroy me, but if I am honest, a part of me will never recover from this, but I must not give up on life all together.

So, for today and right now, I am trying to stay in the present moment, not focusing on the past or the future.

I am sorry that your mother never "recovered" thing I wanted for my daughter was for her to know that I am ok...that this did not destroy me. I have a. busy and active life, she sees that and she is not "worried" about me the way she once was. She also sees this "different" father and his "weirdness". It's a lesson I have for her....that even with hardship, there is a way to recover, there is place for joy.

With the darker season approaching and me usually falling into deeper depression, I have made my first appointment with an acupuncturist to see if that in addition to therapy will help me find light.

I am presently getting acupuncture for a medical condition and I also find it very relaxing. I went for acupuncture for quite a while after BD. I hope it brings you some relief.

One reason I have stayed in Colorado is that there are more than 300 days of sunshine a year. Having lived most of my life in Canada, the gloominess did affect me, it affects my daughter as well as many other of my friends there. Unfortunately that is not an option for everyone but since I was sent back here and had a house here, I am glad most days that I stayed.....the downside is being so far away from my daughter.

Rambling a bit...just wanted you to know that you are not alone in feeling the way that you do. It's hard to share with others who don't understand why we can't just get over it. So share here, with people who totally understand why this is so very very hard.

Our Community / living is an opportunity
« Latest by FrenchHusband on September 25, 2023, 06:26:30 AM »
thank you very much Baxter1 and Helpnewc !
Yes I know this forum is here to support me and it is a big relief knowing you are here, thanks !

Today I want to share here the insights of another French LBS, he is part of a community of LBSs following a rare French "coach" talking about the midlife crisis. 5 years after BD he is finally accepting the divorce that he delayed during years. Now he sees 4 main factors that influence the duration and intensity of the crisis, I added one fifth factor :
1) Level of initial suffering (including FOO wounds)
2) LBS doing "what to avoid" (in French we call that les interdits / the forbidden things
3) stickiness of the "bandage" (pansement = French name for OP)
4)  capacity for introspection of the MLCer
(5)  entourage of the MLCer (family, friends) : sometimes the traditional family is helping positively, sometimes the divorced "friends" have negative influence

What is interesting in this POV is that, between the 4-5 factors that may influence the crisis, only one is under control of the LBS.

My scientific mindset is telling me that it might be possible to compile the datas from all the stories then to figure out the level of the crisis. But on the other hand, I don't think we can foresee the future and I believe the human nature is unpredictable (for good or bad). At the end I think that wanting to predict the future means having expectations, and for my own wellbeing I learned it is best to keep "no expectation"

Another simple criteria (result of the 4-5 factors) to distinguish between minicrisis (MLT) and big crisis (MLC) is the determination for the spouse under MLT to destroy everything that has been built : marriage, finances,

According to the French LBS the duration of minicrisis (MLT) might be
- mini MLT some months
- small MLT : 1 to 2 years
- classical MLT : 3 to 4 years
- big MLT : more than 4 years (rare)

A bit of journaling

life is nice. I spent good time with the children and the friends during this weekend. And the next weekends will be busy also. I feel more and more at peace and I feel my detachment is also increasing. I did not react to the balls that W is sending to me the last week. Instead I continue to keep my line : listen, be light, polite and friendly. I communicate what is needed, no more, no less. I am satisfied of me also because I was able to set up a boundary last time I wanted to discuss some topics with W (related to children and to joint decisions we had to take) : when she began to rant I said simply "OK I see you feel not well so let's discuss another time when you feel better", and she stopped immediately.

I raised the Christmas holidays topic. It was settled 2 years ago that this year we will receive my brothers and their family (spouses + many children). So I asked W whether it was fine for her. She answered instead that she does not know if she will be here for Christmas. I continued with my question, because I want her to feel comfortable, then she said "you do what you want". Then I said (again) that, as I am an adult, I want what I do, and I do not want to invite people behind your back, I finished with "it is your house". I know there are small truth darts hidden in all these words, on the other hand I don't want to hide who I am.

W told me also that she will travel in Switzerland in October for 3 days, to see an old and sick friend from her father. I know there is more to the trip : it is also the preparation of an escape path. I won't react to this escape path, I am happy that I have the knowledge because I can prepare to respond appropriately, may this escape path become revealed to me by W... It seems obvious to me that W is reliving what made her mother 30 years ago after W's father death : abandon the children. Crazy how this crisis is a transgenerational thing :  fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge is such a human reality.

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