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Author Topic: My Story Just Getting Started in this Journey 2

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My Story Just Getting Started in this Journey 2
OP: September 04, 2023, 01:15:04 PM
My second thread, here’s a link to the first one:

https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=12072

Happy Labour Day(to those who celebrate this day).

Still the same here, W at home with family, talk about every day and we’re about 6 months in.
Does anyone have info on antidepressants? Do they help or hinder the MLCer through this. I haven’t seen monster in a while and it’s awkward but not horrible at the house. Not sure if this a calm before a
Storm or the new norm?
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« Last Edit: September 04, 2023, 01:22:38 PM by UrsaMajor »
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Just Getting Started in this Journey 2
#1: September 04, 2023, 01:30:06 PM
My second thread, here’s a link to the first one:

https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=12072

Happy Labour Day(to those who celebrate this day).

Still the same here, W at home with family, talk about every day and we’re about 6 months in.
Does anyone have info on antidepressants? Do they help or hinder the MLCer through this. I haven’t seen monster in a while and it’s awkward but not horrible at the house. Not sure if this a calm before a
Storm or the new norm?

Antidepressants are a God-send for those who really need them, either temporarily or (in some cases for those that are genetically predisposed to having low levels of Serotonin) permanently but not all of them work for every person. They need to be used under supervision of a qualified doctor. One formulation (i. e. Zoloft) might work for one person and not for another so it may be a try and see period until the right one for the particular person is found... In addition, one does NOT want to go full on or quit cold turkey (which is what a lot of MLC'ers do - "Oh, I feel fine now so I don't need this anymore" so they just stop taking it and then all Hades breaks loose).

If it is truly an issue with depression, they can help but the Mid-Lifer still needs to deal with the root causes of their issues that has caused the depression in the first place..... AD's are another band-aid over the wound....
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Divorce final 30 August 2019
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Re: Just Getting Started in this Journey 2
#2: September 04, 2023, 05:28:28 PM
Ok, it’s getting bad over here. We talked tonight and she’s back with the bird nesting. I said I’m not leaving, we can fix this but she wants no part of it. She said she spending time with an ex(she dumped him for me 20 years ago). She wants to ‘see where this goes’, I said I’m standing for the marriage and I’m not giving up. She wants to be friends and coparent, I said that’s fine but I still love you. My heads kinda spinning, part of me wants to grab some popcorn and watch what happens(he called 3 times in a row during our conversation, controlling much?) . She needs to learn that the grass isn’t greener. She said if I don’t burdnest she’ll have to file. Neither one of us want that either, she wants to file when the youngest is 18, he’s 15 now.
Not sure what to do, for now I’m staying in the house, you guys were right, this MLC is tough!
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Just Getting Started in this Journey 2
#3: September 04, 2023, 06:57:07 PM
It is tough Baxter and heartbreaking as the actions have an impact on our well being.

If she wants to file, nothing you can do to change that. That ball is in her court.

I am not sure that divorce does much to help them find happiness. We were apart 9 years “legally separated” and my husband sent  me a text message to inform me that he was divorcing me. He had never even mentioned the word “divorce” and to this day, I have no reason why he felt he needed to do this.

There really is no figuring out why they do the things they do. All I know is that it really is not normal behavior.

It does a number on our heads, how can it not. Be we regain our equilibrium and motor on.

I am not sure that antidepressants have much effect on their crisis. Doesn’t seem so for the few people I know whose spouse was put on meds.

Be gentle with yourself.
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« Last Edit: September 04, 2023, 06:58:17 PM by xyzcf »
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

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Just Getting Started in this Journey 2
#4: September 05, 2023, 12:30:06 AM
Dear Baxter,

The one thing I have learned through brutal experience is there is nothing rational going on and you can’t love them back. For so long I thought I love this woman so much and she must remember some of the good stuff. Nope, it is gone and it ain’t coming back right now.

You get to decide what you can take. You have to care for yourself and your kids. It is your decision when you want to call it.

The one thing I have learned is that the person I loved is no more. Holding onto the past has not helped me. I also know that I can’t talk my way out of this one.

I also have a lot of love to give and I don’t want to have my kids see a dysfunctional loveless marriage.

Be kind to yourself. Hope is ok. But also take care of yourself.

Who knew so much pain existed.
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« Last Edit: September 05, 2023, 12:54:49 AM by Helpnewc »

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#5: September 05, 2023, 12:31:56 AM
I know it's screwy, but it could be that your declarations of love and standing are perceived by your W as you holding on too tightly. In other words, holding her back, or controlling her. It seems odd to write that, because what is wrong with saying you love someone, right? But, if this is the case, she still has you in the cross-wires as the cause of her dis-ease. If you let her free and plow your own groove for now, you may find a bit more relief. She will do what she does, maybe the quicker she does it, the quicker she will see it is not the solution. I don't have an at home MLC, so I can only imagine how hard it is to create a space and way of living that doesn't feel like you are on edge all the time, but I think others who have come before have managed to do this, with strong boundaries and a lot of grit. Yes, it is so very hard and none of it seems logical.
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Re: Just Getting Started in this Journey 2
#6: September 05, 2023, 01:00:20 AM
Thank you for the responses. I have talked to others who agree, if I hold on it will only anger her and make the situation worse. I have made my case that I am standing, that’s all I can do. She wants to get a mediator so I will go along with it but not assist. I placed a boundary of the A not coming to the house which she agreed with. She also wants to share this new life with the kids( she goes to the beach a lot) I feel that it is inappropriate but they are old enough to make their own decisions, should I set a boundary of don’t take the kids with you if A is there? (S17 S15) they each have their own lives and probably won’t go with her anyways, I have a feeling they will thinks it’s Super weird, which it is. If I had a mistress I would never suggest, oh come meet my children, that sounds like something that can occur post D.
In addition the A is an affair down, he is the guy she left for me, I told her she is a grown woman and she will do what she’s going to do but I don’t condone their relationship. She asked me why I wasn’t  mad at her, I wanted to say you’re in MLC and I know this isn’t the real you. Instead I said how can I be mad at you I still love you. She had no reaction to that but I think she was ashamed. Ashamed of what she is doing and ashamed of the guy she’s doing it with. I read ShockSis entries and it seems they don’t care, he is making her pain go away and that’s all that matters at this time. Time will tell what happens, like everyone on this forum I never thought I’d be in this situation but I’m sure I’ll Be fine  either way. Thanks for the support
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#7: September 05, 2023, 01:53:52 AM
I agree with the others here that you may be inadvertently conflating two different things - how you feel about her/your marriage and the nesting issue. In her mind - hence her ‘do what I want it or i’ll file’ - but perhaps in your own.

You are allowed to feel how you feel, but your words of love are obviously not what she wants to hear right now. You’ve said your piece so no need to say it again imho.

On the nesting issue - which if i understand you rightly is that she wants you to buy/rent another place and the two of you take turns using it or being in the house with your kids? Regardless of how you feel, this is not an option you want to take? Why not, out of interest? For reasons that have nothing to do with your feelings for your wife or her opinion? (And don’t get me wrong, I can see a lot of disadvantages to it for you and your kids and few advantages, but some people do choose this option presumably for good reasons….)

But I would encourage you to see these two things as separate….your feelings about how things are vs what you are or are not prepared to do in response to where you are if that makes sense.

You said in an earlier post that she first mentioned this in June. I asked you what your Plan B was when you first said no to it then; you said that you both stayed in the house was your Plan B. It may be that you now need a Plan C, my friend, if your wife is going to turn the pressure up in a very typical MLC way. (Bc they mostly do, particularly in the first year or so, which is why we say it gets worse before it gets better. And often, the thing that gets better is you  :) )

In addition to that, you can ask her to do or not do certain things for your sake or your kids - how is that working out so far though?  ::) - but you can’t control if she does. And that includes if she files or indeed brings the OM around the kids. That is where boundaries come in….yours with her and your kids with her….if she does x or y, do you know what your boundaries and next steps are.

As I read it, essentially (and in a very MLC way) your wife wants to be ‘free to explore’ a new life with OM while the rest of you shuffle round to make that as easy as possible for her so she doesn’t have to feel too much discomfort about it. That sucks and it’s a s$itty way for a parent to behave imho, but that’s how it is right now. You get to choose though what is acceptable as a way to live for you and your kids given that…..if only on the basis that what is good for three outnumbers what is good for one lol…..and you do have options. She may not like them but that’s not really your primary concern, is it? Everything from her moving out to her own place or with her sister as before or with OM to you doing so to legal separation (depending on where you live) to divorce. Or indeed some blend of these things.

Most of us avoid doing these things at first bc, understandably, we want to see it as a short storm that will pass. In reality, from most of the stories here, it becomes evident that it is more like a hurricane that blew your house down. Your choices are about how or if to make a life in the rubble or pick up your treasures and make a different one.

What is going to be best for you and your kids emotionally, practically and financially?
You can still select that option and love your wife or stand in hope of reconciliation down the line. If you knew for sure that your marriage was over, how and where would you like to live your next chapter? Bc what you can’t do is control her choices or protect her from the pretty predictable consequences of prioritising them over her marriage, home and children. But you can protect your own future life from some of it.
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« Last Edit: September 05, 2023, 02:30:58 AM by Treasur »
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.


"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

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Just Getting Started in this Journey 2
#8: September 05, 2023, 02:33:22 AM
Hi Baxter,

KayDee and Treasur have already said it but I am going to repeat (from my own experience) and maybe put it in a bit more graphic terms....

Telling your Mid-Lifer repeatedly that you are standing for your marriage and that you love her usually has 2 effects:
#1 - The Mid-Lifer looses more and more respect for you because they realize that you are going to sit there in your snotty pile of Kleenexes on the porch in your rocking chair crocheting lace doilies no matter what they do - they can do whatever they want and you'll still be there as their Plan B (I personally think we LBS's are worth more than being a "back up option" for the Mid-Lifer if things don't go well with the Affair Down)
#2 - The Mid-Lifer tries harder and harder  to coerce the LBS into doing SOMETHING that "proves their point" or justifies their actions.

Mine asked me, after she had a hot night with the OM where he essentially dumped her and went back to his W and kids and then came home in a hot mess with a story that was as incredible as well as it was impossible. When I hugged her while she was bawling her eyes out, she asked me "Why I was still being so nice to her?" I made the mistake of saying that I still loved her and that I wanted things to work out and <boom!> she was off to the races. A couple of months later, the house was sold, she had found an apartment and I was in the process of looking for one.... Why? Because I was too controlling....  ::) 

She knows you don't condone the extramarital affair. Who would? Stating that is stating the obvious and will come across as an effort to influence/control her and that is the LAST thing an MLC'er wants to have....

So, the advice is right. You've made your point. No point in repeating it ad nauseum

Her threat of "Do what I want or I'll file" is just like a three-year-old saying "If I don't get what I want, I'll hold my breath until I DIE!"  You do you and take care of your kids. You have set the boundary of no OM in the house. Fine. What are the consequences if she breaks that boundary? Do you have a plan?  As far as the nesting thing goes, I have a slightly different viewpoint. If that is what she wants, then she should be the one to do it. SHE should be the one paying for the extra place, NOT you. You HAVE a house and a mortgage...

As fa as OM goes, he's not paying the rent for the headspace he is occupying so ignore him (I know, easier said than done) but the bottom line is that he is a symptom and not the cause. he is a dirty bandage over a gaping wound.

Your kids are old enough (15 & 17) to have a say in where they go and what they do. Be prepared that, if MLCW and OM decide to play "Santa parents" that the kids may be sucked into that for a while... I mean, hey, kids are opportunists but it won't last. As MLCW breaks more and more promises to them, they will realize that it is all a big smoke screen and there is nothing behind it - "Mom" has left the building. 

You can leave it to them to decide if they want to see MLCW/OM to the extent that it doesn't impact their school work or their lives in general.... But, you need to b able to separate YOUR impressions of the impact form the real impact or their perceptions of the impact. Coparenting with a Mid-Lifer is much akin to having an additional teenager/Toddler to deal with...

The bottom line in the repetition of the fact you are standing or that you love her:
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Me - 60, xW - 54
Together 19 years - Married 17 at separation & 21 at D-Day
S - 15, D - 12
2 Dogs
BD#1 - August 2015
Atomic BD - 13 Dec 2015
House sold & separated - Mar 2016
Divorce final 30 August 2019
Moved on in life

Survival Instructions for Newbies
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A "friend" will not "stand by you" no matter what you do. That is NOT a friend. That is an enabler. That is an accomplice.
A REAL friend will sit you down and tell you to your face to stop being a firetrucking idiot before you ruin your life and the lives of those around you.

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Just Getting Started in this Journey 2
#9: September 05, 2023, 03:06:13 AM
You can’t love them back.

You have said it. She knows. It is enough.

Don’t shout at the storm. Get inside and make yourself and your family safe.

I remember when I counted the days. I did not want to believe this $h!te takes years. I am sorry to say I was wrong.

But you also get to decide when enough is enough. You know what you can take. Others will want your pain to end as it causes them pain.

But it is your call. And all of us here know what is going on is very unusual and not a normal marriage problem.
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« Last Edit: September 05, 2023, 03:07:45 AM by Helpnewc »

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Re: Just Getting Started in this Journey 2
#10: September 05, 2023, 03:16:58 AM
Thank you all for the wake up call. I made my point last night and I won’t bring it up again. I agree that is does make me look weaker, she did mention that as well( so you’re ok with being my second choice?)
As for my practical plan C? Not sure yet, last time she blew up like this is went away the next day. I am trying to weigh what this is/will do to the kids. If we birdnest vs awkwardness at the house. I think if I hold her feet to the fire and agree then she will feel the effects of leaving, so far it’s been a cozy life of going out and just coming home, the kids are fine and the house is still here, no wonder why she says she’s happy. If they don’t see one parent for a whole week what are the effects of that? So many questions!
 I’m thinking first order of business is talk to a lawyer and get options. She said she’s wants a mediator, she can do the legwork to get that done. I’m at the point now where I’m just numb to it all. I want very much to save the M but at what cost? Do all this work just to have someone who obviously doesn’t want to be here? Like help said is it worth it to have an unhealthy marriage as an example for the kids? I know MC is something that can backfire but I wish she would at least try it.
I’ve got a lot of thinking to do over the next couple of days, I’m guessing this is the ‘worse’ before the better part.
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#11: September 05, 2023, 03:42:54 AM
Baxter,

I think take it slow. I have learned one person can’t save a marriage. Our lack of control is hard to take. But the reality is nothing we can do will do much in my experience.

What has helped has dropping the rope. Accepting my lack of control and just concentrating on my kids and me. It is easier to do 17 months in and I am ahead of you.

But I wish I had listened. I worked on myself like buggery. But it makes no difference to the marriage although it has made me a better man. I think it is important to just let go and let the thunderstorm rip. That does not mean you condone it, you just realise you can’t do much.

See a lawyer. I am glad I accepted the advice to stay as it will help a better outcome for me. It has been hard but it has helped.

I don’t reckon MC will help unless they ask for it. It might be part of reconciliation but she is in the thrall of endorphins.

My advice is go slow. Someone recommended a herb for me for the cortisol. It might be placebo but it has helped. I am very calm now and nothing rattles me.

Just be a good dad. It is matters and all you can do.
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#12: September 05, 2023, 04:58:46 AM
A Big Yes to the lawyer, Baxter.
You have plenty of questions and gathering some legal information about your rights and obligations where you live is part of that process.

Plus - assuming your wife understands what mediation actually is  ::) - it’s easier to do if you have had time to gather more information about those legal rights and obligations, hers and yours. And some time to think about what really feels sensible and do-able to you given that information. So, for instance, given your wife’s post-BD behaviour so far, I would bet money I don’t have that any bird nesting solution will at least result in OM sleepovers at the ‘spare’ place…..that he would be literally sleeping in your part-time bed and I would have found that completely unacceptable as a way to live even just for a while. You will need to dig deep on what is honestly unacceptable to you, regardless of the potential risk or reward.

If nothing else, it will arm you somewhat against being persuaded by your wife that a mediated compromise looks spookily like her getting everything she wants how she wants it…..and it will protect you, as Help said, from making short-term emotional choices that might come back to bite you on the bottom legally later.
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« Last Edit: September 05, 2023, 05:04:26 AM by Treasur »
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.


"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

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Re: Just Getting Started in this Journey 2
#13: September 05, 2023, 05:21:49 AM
T-
Plan C is I stay at my brothers for a week then she stays with her friend for a week. Our bedroom shares a wall with the kids so I’m hoping that will keep intruders out of the ‘nest’. This whole situation has me numb but I’m also bleeding out Fs to give like crazy. After 6 months of trying to be there and giving the ‘space’ she wanted I’m almost burnt out. I do love her and I want to fix this but as Why told
Me once ‘you can’t reconcile with ashes’. As for meditation I guess it’s in her hands, I will interview with the meditator she chooses but I’m not lifting a finger to aid in our destruction. This situation has gotten me a lot closer to dropping the infamous rope. I care about her but I care less about us if that makes sense.
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Re: Just Getting Started in this Journey 2
#14: September 05, 2023, 05:37:58 AM
This situation has gotten me a lot closer to dropping the infamous rope. I care about her but I care less about us if that makes sense.

"Dropping the rope" is EXACTLY what needs to happen, regardless of whether you are standing or not. Dropping the rope means that you  take control of your own emotions, your own life, and the consequences of your own actions but leave the Mid-Lifer to take responsibility and be accountable for THEIR actions. It means that you are no longer (as I said in my previous post) sitting on the porch in your rocking chair crocheting lace doilies and adding to the pile of boogery Kleenexes while the Mid-Lifer does whatever it is that the Mid-Lifer is going to do. It is about removing that "safety net" that the Mid-Lifer is counting on so they have a backup plan if their foray into the tunnel doesn't work out.

It is the best thing that you can do for yourself and your kids.

It does NOT mean that you stop loving your MLC'er or that you no longer care about them. It means that you are growing forward as an individual who will survive and thrive, regardless of what actions your MLC'er takes.

THAT, in itself can be a VERY powerful "kick in the pants" for the MLC'er - to know and see that their safety net, their anchor if you will, is no longer there.... It gets scary when one is adrift with all the responsibilities and accountability of being a real  "all growed-up" adult...... and no one to share the burden...
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Me - 60, xW - 54
Together 19 years - Married 17 at separation & 21 at D-Day
S - 15, D - 12
2 Dogs
BD#1 - August 2015
Atomic BD - 13 Dec 2015
House sold & separated - Mar 2016
Divorce final 30 August 2019
Moved on in life

Survival Instructions for Newbies
Site Map
 
A "friend" will not "stand by you" no matter what you do. That is NOT a friend. That is an enabler. That is an accomplice.
A REAL friend will sit you down and tell you to your face to stop being a firetrucking idiot before you ruin your life and the lives of those around you.

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Just Getting Started in this Journey 2
#15: September 05, 2023, 05:41:16 AM
Baxter, i’m so very sorry for what you’re going through. Even after BD throws us into a tailspin, the succession of hits after including hearing that they want to move forward with the divorce is such a punch in the stomach. I know it’s hard to focus on legalities when we are hurting but you seem to be doing well.

You are getting great advice. I just want to touch on one thing that I think is super important. The fact that OM is “the guy she left for you” back in the day, and I don’t mean this to be upsetting, but that doesn’t say anything about him. It says something about your wife and her pattern of dealing with relationships. That just stood out for me as an indicator of something she’s going to need to work through for herself.
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Re: Just Getting Started in this Journey 2
#16: September 05, 2023, 05:59:42 AM
Nas-
It’s definitely a difficult time, if we didn’t have kids, a house, a dog and all the other things that make up a life I would feel a little better about all this. As for the guy, I think it was just easy. His life is a mess so shockingly he’s available. They have stayed friends for years so I’m guessing it was easy to ‘get back into it’. That being said he has zero value. I know I’m biased but we used to work together and he is a shallow worthless person. His life is a mess and maybe that’s why she’s interested since she is also a mess at this point in her life. As she was telling me about it I could feel her shame and embarrassment, shame for both breaking up the M and double Shame for who she chose.
U-
I’m getting the rope concept now. For the first 6 months I was focused on ‘will she come back? What will happen?’ . Now that I realize there is 0.0 interest on her side to do anything it makes the rope feel
So much heavier and it’ll feel better to drop it. I want her to feel the consequences of her actions, not in a vindictive way, but in a ‘Wake up you’re making a huge mistake!’ way. Like a kid who has to touch the hot stove, I’ll sit back and let you learn the lesson that needs to be learned.
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Re: Just Getting Started in this Journey 2
#17: September 05, 2023, 06:43:32 AM
His life is a mess and maybe that’s why she’s interested since she is also a mess at this point in her life.

There is NOTHING more that needs to be said here..... The Mid-Lifer is NEVER looking for someone "better" than the LBS. They are looking for someone WORSE than themselves that they can feel superior to ... and control... That's why they pick the people they pick....
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Me - 60, xW - 54
Together 19 years - Married 17 at separation & 21 at D-Day
S - 15, D - 12
2 Dogs
BD#1 - August 2015
Atomic BD - 13 Dec 2015
House sold & separated - Mar 2016
Divorce final 30 August 2019
Moved on in life

Survival Instructions for Newbies
Site Map
 
A "friend" will not "stand by you" no matter what you do. That is NOT a friend. That is an enabler. That is an accomplice.
A REAL friend will sit you down and tell you to your face to stop being a firetrucking idiot before you ruin your life and the lives of those around you.

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Just Getting Started in this Journey 2
#18: September 05, 2023, 07:46:51 AM
“ I want her to feel the consequences of her actions, not in a vindictive way, but in a ‘Wake up you’re making a huge mistake!’ way. Like a kid who has to touch the hot stove, I’ll sit back and let you learn the lesson that needs to be learned” (sorry, quote function not working on my phone)

Or not, Baxter.
Bc tbh that understandable all too normal feeling is a kind of residual attachment.
Either to her….”if she learns the right lessons, she’ll improve her behaviour”
Or to the situation….”it’s not right, there needs to be some kind of universal justice so if consequences force her to learn lessons, that will balance things out somehow”.

Both are entirely reasonable and normal ways to feel
But….
Your wife, and most of our spouses, have already chosen a different tactic. They put some energy in towards trying to avoid certain consequences or learn the lessons we see as blindingly obvious, that’s true. But, bizarre as it seems to us, they invest a lot more energy in trying to avoid the lessons…which is why they blame others, rage, paint themselves as victims, deny real consequences as reality, or distract themselves by focusing on other things.
Which means that realisation and lessons learned may never come or not in the way you imagine it should.
So tbh, we have to let that bit of rope go too.

It’s a different mindset when one does, when one shrugs one’s shoulders about their lessons to focus solely on our own as we move forwards. Most of us (waves hand here) got lost in someone else’s chaos and confusion for too long and took risks with our own well-being that did not serve us well…yes, we did that for some ‘good’ reasons like trying to protect a marriage/family and bc of our deep love for someone else. And a deep sense of shock tbh…it takes a while to accept that what you are seeing IS what is happening, and MLC as a label can be an excuse as well as an explanation, can’t it? But also some perhaps ‘not so good’ reasons for why we stay exposed to things that damage us profoundly….fear and control and naivety and self-esteem or a habit of fixing other peoples business.
Those are lessons we CAN do something about over time, our own lessons.

To this day I have no idea how anyone could have shared our life for twenty years and think that me, my family and our friends deserved nothing better or kinder than what we got from my xh and his ow. Even his cat deserved better lol. My lessons were about seeing that I don’t have to understand something to accept it as a reality…and that it is more important for me to feel ok in my skin than rescue someone who feels uncomfortable in theirs.

Your lessons may vary  :)

There is a brewing political issue here in the UK bc some schools were closed a day before kids were due to go back to school bc buildings were at risk of collapse due to a certain type of concrete being used. This was known to be an issue in 2018. It followed a political decision in 2010 to abolish a previous governments school rebuilding programme. It was flagged as a critical life risk for about 400 schools when our current PM was Chancellor…and he refused the funding to repair more than 50. Now, putting politics aside, how does that make sense? Did the PM think the issue was going to magically vanish? How would any sane adult make the choices that a small clutch of our senior politicians have evidently made? How does that even make political sense bc voters tend to think the lives of their children are quite important, right? But based on the available facts, our PM now obviously decided then that something else was more important to do with the money. And my scratching my head, or getting angry or ranting politics does not change the reality that people made choices that today mean thousands of British children are unable to go to school. That is how it is….and my lessons (and the British voter) gets an opportunity to consider what to do with that. I have no idea if Mr Sunak has learned anything since the info was sent out to schools late on Sunday evening…..

Imho it’s a similar kind of thing.
Mr Sunak….and your wife, and my xh….may continue to think they did nothing wrong or that their intentions were misunderstood or that others were to blame or that it is unreasonable to expect them to have made a different choice.
Thousands of kids here still can’t go to school without the risk of concrete falling on their head. I still got anonymous death threats and was abandoned and virtually bankrupted while being treated for cancer and left alone to try to tidy the mess he ran away from. Those things are real things with real life consequences…and they are still real whether an MLC spouse (or indeed a PM or an electorate) learns a lesson or not. And to continue with the analogy, how would I know if the PM had learned a lesson? Well, in the short term, by how they responded to their behaviour being challenged….that isn’t looking so good for Mr Sunak, how does it look with your wife lol? And in the longer term, I suppose I couldn’t really know unless their behaviour towards school repairs fundamentally and consistently changed….and of course my lesson might be to decide that I don’t want to give them that job responsibility again when I have a choice.
Which is why imho so many LBS eventually not only let go of the rope but refuse to pick it up again if it is waved in front of our face down the line  :)
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« Last Edit: September 05, 2023, 08:10:45 AM by Treasur »
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.


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Re: Just Getting Started in this Journey 2
#19: September 05, 2023, 07:56:16 AM
Baxter
I read earlier where your W ask you if you were ok being #2. I hope I read that right.

Of course your not. I was #2 for a long time and my W fed off of it.
I would let the rope go and then jump and grab it before it pulled away.

She knew I was right there sitting in that Rocker waiting  at anytime she needed me as UM said.

UM is a very wise man, I wished I could have taken his advice early and my road would have been alot easier.

But you taking care of you and going on in your life if the best thing for you and your W.

Dont do it for her. Do it for you.
She has to work this mess out on her own.

I'm not bashing on you my friend. I think I was the weakest of all LBS , my goodness I didnt follow any advice.

I'm somewhere in the 7 year range with a Live In Little Fruit Bat that finally trying to find her way.

JMO here, but if I would have let her be sooner and found my way, she would be a little further along in hers.
Hang in there my friend.
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Re: Just Getting Started in this Journey 2
#20: September 05, 2023, 09:03:59 AM
Helping-
Thanks for the advice. If I could go back and say something different I definitely would. I just wanted to get the message out to her that I am here and that I still love her despite all this BS. Now that the message is out there I can drop the rope and start figuring out my next moves. We are talking bird nesting but I don’t think that will take. She won’t want to be be away from the kids for that long. She will be at her friends spare room, all alone, I’m guessing that will get old real quick. Time will tell what happens but I feel myself worrying about it less and less. After 6 months of stay at home(she’s high energy so home doesn’t quit describe her behavior) I feel less inclined to work on it even though the love is still there.
Treasure-
I agree that I am the normal and rational one, I see things in a ‘normal’ light but she is looking through the MLC rise colored glasses. I wish I could take those glasses off of her and smash them so she can see what she is doing to me/family/dog/life.  I’m trying to get to the point where I realize that litterally nothing I do or say will make a lick of difference. She has to go through the crisis alone and I am just collateral damage at this ooint
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Just Getting Started in this Journey 2
#21: September 05, 2023, 09:39:05 AM
I know it's screwy, but it could be that your declarations of love and standing are perceived by your W as you holding on too tightly. In other words, holding her back, or controlling her. It seems odd to write that, because what is wrong with saying you love someone, right? But, if this is the case, she still has you in the cross-wires as the cause of her dis-ease. If you let her free and plow your own groove for now, you may find a bit more relief. She will do what she does, maybe the quicker she does it, the quicker she will see it is not the solution. I don't have an at home MLC, so I can only imagine how hard it is to create a space and way of living that doesn't feel like you are on edge all the time, but I think others who have come before have managed to do this, with strong boundaries and a lot of grit. Yes, it is so very hard and none of it seems logical.

I've been seeing your comments for a while now Kay.  You've come such a long way holy moly.  This girl LBSes ha.

Bax she's right.  Comments like I love you only add pressure for the MLCer.  I would try and avoid any R discussions.  Get used to saying things like "uh-huh", "sorry you feel that way" etc.   

EDIT: sorry I missed your whole thread and the latest updates.  Im really sorry you're going through this. 
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« Last Edit: September 05, 2023, 09:55:10 AM by WHY »

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Re: Just Getting Started in this Journey 2
#22: September 05, 2023, 11:21:58 AM
W-
As always thanks for the support! It’s been a long day but I’ve got IC tonight, it’ll be good to continue to get all this out
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Just Getting Started in this Journey 2
#23: September 05, 2023, 03:39:51 PM
Baxter,

I was not having a crack about saying you loved her. I get it. I did it last week. I think it is important to get it out and then realise it don’t make any difference to her.

Stay strong.

Help
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Re: Just Getting Started in this Journey 2
#24: September 05, 2023, 04:40:44 PM
Help-
Thanks for the response, I now realize that my saying that may have had the opposite affect that I was looking for. What’s done is done and I’ll learn from today.
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Re: Just Getting Started in this Journey 2
#25: September 05, 2023, 11:18:24 PM
Quote from: Baxter1
Help-
Thanks for the response, I now realize that my saying that may have had the opposite affect that I was looking for. What’s done is done and I’ll learn from today.

Hi B1, sorry that you are under these bad moments. And also, happy that you have again a right state of mind : you learn from your mistakes and you go ahead.

Regarding the ultimatum given by W, imo you have many ways to respond to this :
- give W what she wants (not my preferred choice)
- you say the children have the right to know and give their opinion (not my preferred choice)
- call it a bluff
- propose alternatives : e.g. she wants to leave half time -> she leaves.
- you file
- you do nothing, you say nothing
- you say you need 1 month / 1 year before moving, because of ...
- you say you need time to think about it (without giving or accepting deadlines)
- you concentrate on yourself and the children and spend time with them
-...

In any case, there is no hurry from my pov to run at W's pace : she might change her wants and needs very fast, so take your time, and think about the best solution for you and the children without giving a thought of what W might do or not do.

Sometimes it is the same for teenageers : they become crazy because they want absolutely THIS and THAT. And few days after, it is as if they never said anything. And months or years after, they admit they did'nt need it...

Quote from: Baxter1
I’m trying to get to the point where I realize that litterally nothing I do or say will make a lick of difference. She has to go through the crisis alone and I am just collateral damage at this ooint

I believe that we can not do anything that accelerates the timeline, yes. But OTOH, I believe also that sometimes we do things or say things that slow down the pace (same opinion I read on Acorn's thread)
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Re: Just Getting Started in this Journey 2
#26: September 05, 2023, 11:28:38 PM
Help-
Thanks for the response, I now realize that my saying that may have had the opposite affect that I was looking for. What’s done is done and I’ll learn from today.

That sounds like a healthy attitude - we’re humans, we are adapting to circumstances that seem surreal or make no sense to us, we’re all going to make misteps sometimes with hindsight. I certainly did, but in reality, most of what I did or said had little apparent effect on my xh’s behaviour - good or bad - than I thought at the time.

I suspect the key is letting go of the need or desire to affect them one way or the other tbh. To get to a point where you do you and shrug your shoulders somewhat about their opinion of it. And that takes a little while for most of us when we have spent decades as part of a partnership, doesn’t it?
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Re: Just Getting Started in this Journey 2
#27: September 06, 2023, 02:27:19 AM
I suspect the key is letting go of the need or desire to affect them one way or the other tbh. To get to a point where you do you and shrug your shoulders somewhat about their opinion of it. And that takes a little while for most of us when we have spent decades as part of a partnership, doesn’t it?

I have a sign on my white board that describes the feeling - "The difference between your opinion and a pizza is that I asked for the Pizza."
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A "friend" will not "stand by you" no matter what you do. That is NOT a friend. That is an enabler. That is an accomplice.
A REAL friend will sit you down and tell you to your face to stop being a firetrucking idiot before you ruin your life and the lives of those around you.

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Re: Just Getting Started in this Journey 2
#28: September 06, 2023, 02:48:28 AM
FH-
You words rang a chord with me, she is like a teenager and acts in teenage ways. I’m going to try the ignore it method. What she felt yesterday might be different today, we’ve had these meltdowns in the past. It was 2 months ago to the day that this happened, I waited it out then asked about it and she said ‘I thought you didn’t want to move, it’s fine’. The cycling continues, I’m catching on. She cycles daily in moods and actions but apparently there is a 2 month cycle as well. (Makes Mental note to be ready for November)
T-
It is taking some getting used to, after 20 years in one direction I’m slowly learning to go in a different direction. If I follow her I fear we’ll fall of the cliff!
U-
I would try saying that but I fear that would not be well received, great for a laugh though!
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Re: Just Getting Started in this Journey 2
#29: September 06, 2023, 03:17:36 AM
U-
I would try saying that but I fear that would not be well received, great for a laugh though!

You don't have to say it, just think it... ;)

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A "friend" will not "stand by you" no matter what you do. That is NOT a friend. That is an enabler. That is an accomplice.
A REAL friend will sit you down and tell you to your face to stop being a firetrucking idiot before you ruin your life and the lives of those around you.

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Re: Just Getting Started in this Journey 2
#30: September 06, 2023, 04:28:05 AM
A useful response when she suggests things that you did not ask for: "I´ll take that under consideration."
A reply like that lets her know you heard her but also gives you time to ponder without having to give an answer at a specific time, especially not in the moment.
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Re: Just Getting Started in this Journey 2
#31: September 06, 2023, 06:03:59 AM
For-
Thanks for the tip, I’ll keep that in my toolbox for the next meltdown.

Question for the group, how to deal with anger/frustration. W admitted to ‘seeing someone’, how do you deal with that nugget if information?? I’m more angry with the situation and the A, I have empathy for W but how do I deal with the anger? There’s a punching bag at the gym and I can try relaxation techniques but it’s a lot to take in. Part of me wants to run and never come back but unlike my MLCer I acknowledge that I have responsibilities.
Thank You!
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#32: September 06, 2023, 07:01:52 AM
Quote
Question for the group, how to deal with anger/frustration. W admitted to ‘seeing someone’, how do you deal with that nugget if information??

It is totally gut wrenching and hits me is a very deep and primordial place....I can "accept" the other stuff but the betrayal is something that I still am pained by.

What helped me was the knowledge that he is in a crisis and has turned away from his beliefs...that it seems having an affair(s) is hallmark to their crisis. That gave me the "information" that my head needed, but my heart still remains broken by this.

Once you have that knowledge of her with another person, you can never erase it.  Anger is not a bad thing....we should feel anger at what they are doing.

Anything that helps you to "forget" even for a few moments, to give you some relief from the intense feelings is helpful.....walking outdoors, yoga and meditation, watching comedy, getting  involved in an activity (I started to play golf which required me to focus on something other than him)...the punching bag sounds like a good idea.

For me, my faith held me together and eventually, we process and let go ....

A quote I read by Anais Nin also struck me although it took me time to get there:

“And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom.

As with all other things related to this crisis, give yourself time.
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"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

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Just Getting Started in this Journey 2
#33: September 06, 2023, 07:04:36 AM
I walked... a LOT... in the dark, in the rain, in the winter... My dog thought it was the best thing since sliced bread.... my feet not so much...
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A "friend" will not "stand by you" no matter what you do. That is NOT a friend. That is an enabler. That is an accomplice.
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Re: Just Getting Started in this Journey 2
#34: September 06, 2023, 07:17:58 AM
Question for the group, how to deal with anger/frustration. W admitted to ‘seeing someone’, how do you deal with that nugget if information?? I’m more angry with the situation and the A, I have empathy for W but how do I deal with the anger? There’s a punching bag at the gym and I can try relaxation techniques but it’s a lot to take in.

Others have covered doing physical things and engaging your empathy. What I suggest is to first not push away the anger, but try to sit with the feelings that are causing the anger. I am not talking about wallowing or rage, but rather listen to your anger, what is it telling? How is her admitting this to you differ from suspecting? What does it say that she is telling you about it? Are you hurt? Feel unappreciated? Discarded? Uncared for? Devalued? Alone? I am not stating these to be true rather things to use to see why are you angry.

It is counter intuitive but sometimes allowing ourselves to move from the anger to the underlying emotions helps diminish the power and the fire of the anger. Not that it get more pleasant, but it helps us process the pain and get to a better place quicker than staying in just anger. Specially if your intention is to not react to your anger, sometimes anger can provide the energy and force to move when we are stuck.
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Just Getting Started in this Journey 2
#35: September 06, 2023, 08:27:48 AM
Well, of course she is  ::) >:(……I used to be a lot less cynical but now not so much.
Whatever she is telling you now, please prepare yourself that a)she will lie and b) the truth will be that it has gone on longer/more/further than she is saying now, a kind of trickle truth comes out with time usually and c) bc it’s a bit uncomfortable to admit that you have done something awful, bizarrely she may be nastier/angrier towards you bc that is how she justifies doing such a s&itty thing. Weird, I know, but common. So batten your metaphorical hatches  :)


Anger tends to use and release a particular type of energy, doesn’t it?
I don’t know what your relationship with anger is like in your life before this. What you think about anger. Or the fact that anger is often pretty close to fear for most humans.

So, all this advice here is to break it down into separate bits at least for a while….

Your nervous system is probably telling you to move your body in some way. So, find a safe way to discharge the energy. Doesn’t matter what you do….I walked miles and miles ranting to the sky as I recall.  ::) Do something that lets the frazzled energy of it out. You’ll know when you have done enough to discharge enough of it to feel that you are in control of it.

Honour your anger. It’s a reasonable and normal feeling to have. Don’t try to rationalise it away or feel you have to cover it with an empathy card at the moment. This person you loved and trusted has done something awful and profoundly disrespectful to you, perhaps some of the deepest parts of you, of what you value most. Anger is also often a flag for when we need a different boundary or a different mindset or expectation….it’s your self saying Hell No. and that’s normal and reasonable too. It’s ok to feel very angry with your wife, om, the universe, yourself even. And it’s ok to feel it without having to act on the feeling, or let it drive your reactions, or speak it out loud, so give it time. Breathe a bit. Like breathing through something physically painful, like one of those rugged cowboys in a movie having an arrow cut out….

Keep yourself and others safe from your anger. I’d avoid contact or conversations with your wife or others close to you until the fizz is spent. Drive with extra care. Stay off social media. Avoid big decisions, alcohol, drugs and appealing women. :)

When you have discharged the fizzy energy of it physically, and when you have given yourself a little time to breathe through it, you can let yourself listen to what it’s telling you. All those questions Marvin asked and more. That’s where you learn to befriend the anger almost, to accept it without being controlled by it, to consider what anger means to you bc in my experience it comes with some different baggage and different uses for different folks.

And do not be surprised if other emotions come along after the anger, sometimes big emotions. Sorrow, grief, spite, bitterness, fear, resentment, helplessness, exhaustion. Or indeed if the anger comes and goes and comes again.

Your job is to get as honest with yourself as you can be about feeling what you feel. But without letting it be in the driving seat. You can’t heal what you don’t let yourself feel. And you can’t control your responses if you deny the legitimacy and reality of how you feel. And you can’t be kind to yourself unless you accept that your anger is understandable and ok to feel, that it has the right to exist without thinking about your wife at all.

My suspicion is that some of your anger may be bc this new ‘information’ (no surprise based on stories here but still s&itty) has forced you to see things about your wife, your situation or yourself that you really don’t want to see. Bc once you see them, you can’t unsee them, can you? Most LBS live with a certain level of denial for a while…it’s a survival mechanism tbh, similar bit of our brain that still goes to call someone who has died or makes coffee for two, it kind of postpones certain things until we begin to be strong enough to begin to deal with it, I think….until we can’t deny something any longer and then we don’t. And that is a deeply painful thing to experience. Most of us here know that….most of us have felt something close to exactly how you feel right now. But here some of us are, on the other side of it, in our own way. And you will find your own way eventually to the other side too, my friend….but this is part of the path.
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« Last Edit: September 06, 2023, 08:43:26 AM by Treasur »
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.


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Re: Just Getting Started in this Journey 2
#36: September 06, 2023, 05:30:56 PM
Thank you all for the comments. I’m ‘cycling’ between anger, frustration, empathy and a bit of compartmentalization for now. I’m sure this will take a while to process. Like with your children you still see them as small I still see W that way, she would never. And it’s true she would never, this 2.0 version apparently does sh$tty things. I’m already doing the walking and gym as part of GAL anyways.
I do agree that I have to let the feelings flow and not ignore them. They are valid feelings(like all feelings) and I just need to take some time. No offense to anyone here but how to do I cancel my membership to this MLC club??
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#37: September 06, 2023, 05:37:11 PM
It’s a like long membership type setup.  Just when you think you’re out.  It pulls you back in. 
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#38: September 06, 2023, 06:43:43 PM
I used mental and physical strategies to cope, including no contact (n=1). Not to illicit a change on him, but to stabilize me.

Focus on yourself and yes, the affair is likely to have gone on for much longer than you realize,  and kids will be introduced much earlier than you imagine.

This is all part of trying on a completely new life. That includes a new person.
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Re: Just Getting Started in this Journey 2
#39: September 07, 2023, 06:20:31 AM
Re-
I’m trying to get that self focus mindset,  she’s out doing whatever she’s doing, why aren’t I?? Fair to say that she does not care at all what I do so I’m going to do me. For now that is GAL, whatever that means in the moment. Dropping the rope is kinda freeing(while also scary and sad, I was fond of what was on the other side of said rope). As long as we have a home to come home to thats all I can ask for.
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Re: Just Getting Started in this Journey 2
#40: September 07, 2023, 06:41:55 AM
For-
Thanks for the tip, I’ll keep that in my toolbox for the next meltdown.

Question for the group, how to deal with anger/frustration. W admitted to ‘seeing someone’, how do you deal with that nugget if information?? I’m more angry with the situation and the A, I have empathy for W but how do I deal with the anger? There’s a punching bag at the gym and I can try relaxation techniques but it’s a lot to take in. Part of me wants to run and never come back but unlike my MLCer I acknowledge that I have responsibilities.
Thank You!
Hi B1,
sorry you are here. I would not like to be in your shoes right now, not sure what I would do.

Regarding Anger, I read recently this on Acorn's thread. I copy paste, maybe you can find some use ? And yes, it is not easy to love someone who betrayed you.

Anger management – it’s a fear problem
By Kim Giles, KSL.com Contributor  |  Posted Mar 11th, 2013 @ 6:15am

The first thing you must understand is that your anger problem is really a fear problem.
Anger happens when something (or someone) triggers your core fears. The following principles explain your two core fears and how they affect you.

Principle 1: There are only two states from which you can respond to any situation.

You can respond from love (and focus on honoring, edifying and validating the other person) or you can respond from fear (and focus on what you need). Every other response or emotion fits into these two categories.

Principle 2: There are two core fears which drive most human behavior.

They are the fear of failure (that you won’t be good enough) and the fear of loss (that your life won’t be good enough). The fear of failure is a fear of not being loved, valued, appreciated or wanted. The fear of loss is a fear that you won’t have what you need, want or deserve.

Principle 3: When you experience fear you automatically cast the other person as the bad guy and yourself as the good guy.

In order to do this, you will conveniently leave out the good in the other person and the bad in you.
When you experience anger it is usually because you feel ripped off, short changed, unloved, dishonored or mistreated in some way. Take a minute and think about the last time you were angry.
Was it a fear of loss issue or a fear of not being loved, wanted, honored or appreciated issue?
Anger management starts with figuring out what you are afraid of and learning to manage your fear by choosing trust and love (the opposites of fear).
It is also going to mean choosing to see the other person accurately, someone like you, (a work in progress doing the best they can with what they know) and ditching the need to cast them as the bad guy.


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Re: Just Getting Started in this Journey 2
#41: September 07, 2023, 06:49:04 AM
FH-
Love that last part ‘A work in progress doing the best they can with what they know’
She’s definitely a work in progress, but I guess so am I!
I still feel anger and hurt but also strangely empathy? She’s going through some deep changes in her life and I feel my job is to stand back (wayyyy back) and let her do her thing. It’s horrible and gut wrenching but like a hurricane there’s nothing I can do to stop it.
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Re: Just Getting Started in this Journey 2
#42: September 10, 2023, 06:52:11 AM
More Journaliing:
Since the last R talk she’s stayed out Friday and came home last night. Seeing her car in the garage just about floored me. I’m keeping space and staying in my side while she’s on hers. After I walked the dog we met in the hall, I said good morning and got an annoyed ‘hi’. I’m guessing monster is in the high cycle this week, she left for the day.I’m trying to detach, not quite there yet. I’m sure the next R talk about the ‘nesting’ won’t go well. I’ve yet to talk to anyone here or outside(some people outside here know)  that think leaving the house is a good idea. Do I bring up the subject to get it over with or let it ride? My IC says I should talk to her about it, last time this happened I waited a couple of days and she seemed ok with the current arrangement.
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Re: Just Getting Started in this Journey 2
#43: September 10, 2023, 07:27:32 AM
One person´s two cents: Since she is the one unhappy with the marriage and is having the affair, I would not bring up leaving or nesting since most people in your situation would expect her to be the one to leave. Your life has already been blown up by her unilateral decisions. Why should your life be even more disrupted than it already is? Her current choices have consequences and moving out is a logical one under the circumstances. Now if supporting the house financial obligations on just your salary is untenable then it may require selling the home so you may each buy your own space. Enabling her to get her cake and eat it too is an option for you but not an obligation.
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Re: Just Getting Started in this Journey 2
#44: September 10, 2023, 07:51:17 AM
I wouldn't bring up any talks my friend.  Let it ride.

My w would leave and just go. It's not an easy thing to deal with. At first I didnt know about the A.  My gut told me, but I couldn't believe it.
I tried, I begged, gave all I could.
She laughed when I was upset. She even spout off before she would leave, oh, you gonna cry again when I leave.

It took me a long time my friend to get past that.
Once I found the A, my anger took over. I finally got to where I would ignore her getting dressed up and leaving. Totally like she disnt even exist.

She disnt like that either, she try and get something out  of me.

I got to where I would tell her, go have your OM , I hope you have fun. Well, she didnt like that either.


As for the good morning,  I wouldnt mention a word. It's hard, it takes time. Dont waste your breathe.


I'm not drowning you my friend. Just my advice.

You CD read my early threads and you would say, oh I'm doing good compared to him. Yep, my early threads would be good thread subject for new LBSers on WHAT NOT to DO.

Noone can expect you to just let it go now when a spouse is crazy and playing with OM rt under your nose. I know I cdnt.

Think of her as gone already. Try and heal.
I faked mine until i made it. Yep, she seen me as the IDC what you do H, and when she left i would crumble.

It will come
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Re: Just Getting Started in this Journey 2
#45: September 10, 2023, 09:27:35 AM
Baxter I have a question. Are you clear with yourself about why you would have any kind of “talk” with her? Is it hoping to find some kind of connection, even if it’s a negative one? Are you hoping she will acknowledge your feelings and hurt, or suddenly “realize” something? Even if you just want to talk about simple arrangements do you think she is ordered or functional enough for it to work or matter?

I have always been a big believer if you are not clear with yourself about what you want or what you expect do not engage with others. This is true if engaging with functional people, so you can imagine how much more important it is with someone who is struggling.

You may need to decide for yourself and act.
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Re: Just Getting Started in this Journey 2
#46: September 10, 2023, 10:00:02 AM
Marvin,
That js a great question and I’ll give you an answer. Partly for myself so that I understand but also to get others who have been there’s ideas in the matter. At this point I don’t expect any type of empathy or connections from her, I don’t think she is capable of that at this point of MLC.
W and I had a talk the other day where she brought up nesting yet again. At the time I said I wasn’t for it but she mentioned she would like to talk about it soon. The next day I happened to have a meeting with IC where we talked and he recommended that I bring it up so that I throw the ball back in her court. I don’t think any type of R conversations are enjoyable, I’m just trying to see if what the IC says lines up with people who have actually lived  this experience. My original hunch seems correct:
Anything other than: ‘Sure I’ll leave the house so that you can live your fantasy life and not have to worry about your husband, I’ll go pack my things right now dear, I’ll leave my credit card on the table for you ’ Will be met with a lot of resistance.
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Just Getting Started in this Journey 2
#47: September 10, 2023, 12:42:48 PM
Hi B1,

sorry if my comment is unwelcome, I have never lived this experience (and don't want to)

thinking about your situation, it looks like to me that your W is currently throwing at you many hurting balls (ultimatum, OM revelation, ostentatious outings), trying to knock you off in order to make you take the (bad) decision that your W wants not to endorse.
This ball is not yours, this game is not yours, from my pov you have no obligation to react to these balls.
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Love means to give without expecting return, and every act is a prayer if it is a selfless gift. (thanks OffRoad !)

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Re: Just Getting Started in this Journey 2
#48: September 10, 2023, 01:29:45 PM
Do I bring up the subject to get it over with or let it ride?

I was (am) kind of the SME on letting my anxiety initiate conversations, with the faulty logic that it will make the anxiety subside. (Luckily I only mess up and let anxiety take charge under very very high stress…you know, like the kind of stress one deals with when there’s serious instability abounding, such as, oh, I don’t know, having children to consider with an at home spouse in crisis…)

I can understand the pull toward wanting to “get it over with.” Because it’s hanging over your head and the anxiety can be overwhelming. The anxiety will tell you to take action to make the anxiety stop, but the action is not always in your best interest. As has been stated, sometimes there is an underlying idea that the conversation will lead to some unconsciously hoped for outcome, but it most likely will just lead to more hostility and/or demands from her.

I can also understand your IC advising to have the conversation, as most of the time people’s therapist advise them as though they are dealing with a “regular divorce.“ separation from a disordered person is never normal and normal rules don’t apply.

My SIL is having what I would term a doozy of an MLC. She has moved out and is fully with her affair partner now, but for about seven months, she lived at home and was angrily insisting on a nesting situation, similar to your wife. She had heard about it from one of her divorced friends, and of course it benefited her so she stomped her feet and demanded it for months. Each time she  brought it up, my brother simply stated “I am not leaving my home“ and then left the room. He was lucky in that he has the full support of her parents and family (so much so that her family is financially footing the bill for his divorce out of her inheritance  :o. I’ve never seen anything like it). So her family was rallying behind him to refuse the nesting situation, which I assume made things easier, but he was still the one who had to deal with her. He just said nothing, stayed away from her when at home, and when she brought it up, he made his position very firm and never wavered: “Nesting does not work for me, I am not leaving my home.“ Eventually it sunk in and she realized she was not going to get her way.

You have to do what is best for you. And if that is not nesting, I would not bring up a conversation about nesting. I would not bring up a conversation about anything until you know exactly what you want to do and are ready to do it. And then stand firm on what is in your best interest and the best interest of the kids. Because she is only thinking of her own interests and that will likely be true for a long time.
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Re: Just Getting Started in this Journey 2
#49: September 10, 2023, 01:59:14 PM
For, help, FH,Marvin and Nas,

Thanks for the input! I wasn’t planning on backing down from not leaving the house. I just wasn’t sure how to time the talk. Seeing that she wants the talk, D, nesting, whatever then she can bring it up and do the legwork for what she wants. If I wanted a sandwich I wouldn’t think it would come to me, I’d go to it and put in the work to get it done.
Nas- Her parents are paying out of her inheritance? That is wild !
She told her sister and they aren’t hanging out anymore so I’m guessing she took my side. Time will tell what happens, thank you all for your time!!
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Just Getting Started in this Journey 2
#50: September 10, 2023, 02:47:22 PM
Quote
“Nesting does not work for me, I am not leaving my home.“

I like this .....you repeat it to her often enough and stand firm on what you want.

My husband thought I could move from my beautiful home and garden to an apt that faces the Home Depot parking lot...did not happen. I stayed in my home.

Yes, the IC usually wants us to confront and discuss and what is sad but seems true...as long as they are in a crisis, discussion goes no where. And it sets us up because we think, ok....we "need" to do this seriously.....but in general, they only want what they want and their minds change daily, sometimes hourly.

Knowing what you want and sticking with that is a huge step ahead...because you know what is best for you and you do not have to appease her...this is her show.
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Re: Just Getting Started in this Journey 2
#51: September 10, 2023, 03:27:17 PM
XY-
Did I mention I want out of this club? This  same thing happened about 2 months ago, nesting/move out. I waited a couple of days and we talked. She said ‘I thought you didn’t want to’ and walked away. Here I am freaking out and she’s probably already forgotten about this. At yes, the joys of a cycling MLCer, I’ve got to work on my detachment game!
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#52: September 10, 2023, 03:48:36 PM
Dear Baxter,

Reading your messages is like looking back at my life 12 months ago.
I was desperately trying to work it out and find a way to save my marriage.

I am in month 17, the affair has ended. She is back in our old life with me deleted from it. Presumably because she is happier with me not in it.

My advice is so what is right for you. Take the steps that help you recover. Don’t lose empathy but gain distance. For me, it is now like I am watching from a remote drone. Her feelings don’t concern me.

It is hard. I get it. My wife went out on Saturday night and the kids stayed at their grandparents. I was alone but ok. My mind did not wander to what she was doing. I could not have done that before.

Nothing you want will come from discussing the relationship. She is in a different spot to you. It will take time. I wish that was not the truth. I have given up scouring the web for plans and things to break through.

There is only one plan. Look after yourself. Look after your kids and be strong so that if you do get the chance to pick up the pieces you can.

I am sorry for your pain.
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Re: Just Getting Started in this Journey 2
#53: September 10, 2023, 04:13:31 PM
Help-
Thanks for your words. I’m trying to detach but like most things it’ll take time. I’m learning to accept that the old wife is no longer here. She may come back at the end of this or she may not. It seems both our wives agree that they will have a better life without us, maybe it’s in the MLC brochure. I’m focusing on the kids and GAL while she focuses on herself and her new life. This definitely sucks but I think I’ll be stronger person at the end of it no matter what the outcome.
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#54: September 10, 2023, 04:57:56 PM
Sucks is the word.

You will be ok either way.
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#55: September 10, 2023, 05:17:26 PM
Just chiming in to agree with Helpnewc's advice.
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Re: Just Getting Started in this Journey 2
#56: September 15, 2023, 06:28:53 AM
W wants to go to counciling? I’m planning on agreeing but from it looks like it might not end well, any advice?? It was her idea
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Just Getting Started in this Journey 2
#57: September 15, 2023, 07:22:55 AM
As usual, it depends......

If she is still in the tunnel, in escape and avoid, then she is likely looking for a counselor to tell her what she is doing is fine if it makes her happy or to give her "permission" to divorce you. That is what my MLC'er did and when she did NOT get that, she didn't want to continue counselling very long.

If she is serious and is really looking to figure out what the deal is, she probably needs to be seeing an IC herself rather than an MC with you....

Regardless, as long as your expectations are non-existent, it might help. It might just be a huge gripe session and recitation of every fault you have, real or imagined so keep that in mind...
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Re: Just Getting Started in this Journey 2
#58: September 15, 2023, 07:43:23 AM
She wants to have a meeting so that we can discuss our communication issues. I’m not reacting at all to her when she tells me it’s over. I’m thinking that’s the goal of this meeting, she’s pissed im not reacting to her when she says stuff
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Re: Just Getting Started in this Journey 2
#59: September 15, 2023, 11:34:45 AM
If the agenda for a counseling session is to learn effective communication strategies, I´d say go for it. You´re gonna need those strategies whether or not you remain a couple. Doing practice conversations with the input of the counselor might help a lot as both of you would get feedback on things you might be doing (body language) or saying (tone, word choice, you vs. I statements) but are not aware of that pull the conversation in a negative way.
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Re: Just Getting Started in this Journey 2
#60: September 15, 2023, 12:23:37 PM
For-
I agree, there’s nothing wrong with learning communication skills. I feel that the point of MC is to either check it off the list (I half heartedly tried so now we can D) or it’s just to get me to feed monster more by her getting me riled up in the meeting. ‘ see Mrs councilor, look at what I’m married to’!.
Either way I’ll go in with an open mind, friends of mine are on the same page as you, it won’t hurt to try, it may save the M but I’m very cautiously optimistic.
UM-
I agree, it will be a gripe fest. I’m sure in the long list of complaints some will be valid and I will validate as needed. I’m sure she wants the same, to have the MC validate her as an excuse to leave.
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Just Getting Started in this Journey 2
#61: September 15, 2023, 01:00:35 PM
Hi B1,

From what you write, your W wants you to react to all the balls she sends at you. And, as you are not reacting, she is not happy. So, the MC looks like a way to oblige you to react to the balls. She is totally desperate to make you react, and she is looking for an ally.
So, imho, if you accept this MC you can prepare to the worse and sharpen your best communication skills to not react and listen ; keeping an open mind is a good idea. Don't expect this MC to save your M, if it happens it will be a good surprise.

When I got the MC 2 months ago, my W wanted to separate and was preparing escape paths. But at the end of the MC, even if the mediator asked her 2 times whether she wants to speak about separation, she did not say a word about it. My W is afraid about D and does not wants to initiate it, I guess yours is in a similar position ?
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Re: Just Getting Started in this Journey 2
#62: September 15, 2023, 01:15:45 PM
FH-
I love the ball analogy. Yes, I have been as non reactive as possible and it is upsetting her( we need MC because we don’t “communicate effectively”). She has been throwing balls and I’ve been letting them fly right past. I’m going to go into MC with an open mind but I fell she doesn’t want D either. We have a great life together, she doesn’t want to give that up. I feel that for many reasons (house,kids,friends and family judging her) she won’t pick D. I guess time will tell, thanks for sharing your experience.
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Re: Just Getting Started in this Journey 2
#63: September 15, 2023, 01:30:55 PM
Bax
I agree with UM. 
It's hard to defend the crazy blame they can throw at this stage.
You will be the worst guy in the world to the MC. If you defend the lies??? Well your still the bad guy.
Be prepared for a throw down. 

And yes she probably needs some justification for what's shes doing.

You know your W better than anyone.  Maybe it it will work, maybe shes for real.
Just be prepared my friend.

Try to listen and more listening.
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Just Getting Started in this Journey 2
#64: September 17, 2023, 12:56:17 PM
Hi Baxter1,

You have been given a lot of good advice. One thing I would add to list s that if you agree into MC, it is highly recommended to ask in advance if MC is pro-marriage or not.  This may have huge effect on the narrative you will go through those sessions. Choose wisely and shop around for proper MC.

Regards,
Alvin
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Re: Just Getting Started in this Journey 2
#65: September 17, 2023, 01:18:28 PM
Alvin,

Thanks for the heads up! She was going to pick the MC but I graciously took over that responsibility. I’ll be asking pro marriage, i appreciate your time
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Re: Just Getting Started in this Journey 2
#66: September 18, 2023, 02:30:07 AM
Alvin,

Thanks for the heads up! She was going to pick the MC but I graciously took over that responsibility. I’ll be asking pro marriage, i appreciate your time

Be prepared to have her say that you picked the MC to support your point of view then.... (Personal experience)  I let MLC'er pick and she picked one that she knew told her friend that they really should divorce (which was what she wanted to have happen) but when the therapist told my MLCxW that she was lucky to have me and that she needed to be part of the solution to save the marriage instead of finding a problem for every solution, she suddenly didn't like that therapist, that SHE picked, anymore...

Just FYI from a sample of one
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Atomic BD - 13 Dec 2015
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Divorce final 30 August 2019
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A "friend" will not "stand by you" no matter what you do. That is NOT a friend. That is an enabler. That is an accomplice.
A REAL friend will sit you down and tell you to your face to stop being a firetrucking idiot before you ruin your life and the lives of those around you.

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#67: September 18, 2023, 04:25:34 AM
Let’s ask this another way.  Can anyone show ONE example of where MC worked while the MLCer was deep in escape and avoid….

You have my answer. 
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#68: September 18, 2023, 04:43:29 AM
Tbh I would not worry overmuch about trying to find the ‘right’ MC at this point.
Why?
Bc doing so hooks you into an unconscious belief that you can control or influence something you probably can’t.
Bc, whatever the MC is like, one can only work with what the players bring to the table in terms of their own intentions….like talking to a mirror really…your w either wants to rebuild something or destroy it and the capability of an MC does not change that. (It might matter if her intention was about rebuilding, that’s true…but you can always choose a different MC if so, right?)
Bc if you see it as a simple data gathering opportunity, completely without expectations one way or the other, you will be able to see your w’s intention without much input from the MC either way tbh.
Bc you can always leave the session if you think it is futile or harmful to you or that it is enabling abusive behaviour by your wife. We always have the right to say no thanks to things; we often don’t use it enough  :)

Metaphorically pick a sensible name out of a hat. Get an appointment. See it as data gathering where your primary job is to listen well enough to judge if your w’s primary goal is to rebuild or justify destroying your marriage/family as it has been and then be able to act accordingly after the meeting. Say very little and resist the urge to defend, explain or justify your own intentions or choices to date. Bc very few of them matter at all practically speaking if someone else’s intention is negative. Short sentences. Stick to facts where you can. Say idk or I’m not sure or I’d need time to think about that when you don’t know. Be careful about treating either your hopes or assumptions as facts….they may be facts to you but not necessarily from your wife’s current pov and few of us like being told what’s wrong with how we think or feel  :)

In summary, do it if you want but invest a lot less energy in it than I think you might be doing. It’s unlikely to be either a magic fix or a magic closing curtain either way.
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Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.


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#69: September 18, 2023, 05:28:57 AM
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One thing I would add to list s that if you agree into MC, it is highly recommended to ask in advance if MC is pro-marriage or not.  This may have huge effect on the narrative you will go through those sessions.

I agree with Alvin. It is important that the counsellor is pro marriage if that is what you are working towards. The counsellor we saw twice told my husband it was time for him to get in touch with his dark side...basically telling him to leave and do whatever he wanted to do. I was shocked by this...no attempt at all to suggest that there was anything to work on .....not even to work on how to end the marriage if that was to be the result.
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"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

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#70: September 18, 2023, 05:48:20 AM
I interviewed about 7-8 therapists when I was going through the same thing.  They ALL said as long as there was an active alienator, that MC was set up to fail.  It only works when there is no alienator, and when both parties want to fix the marriage, but don’t know. 

Sincerely Bax.  Do it for your own reasons.  But personally I think it’s a complete waste of time and may actually make things worse if detachment is your goal.   
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Re: Just Getting Started in this Journey 2
#71: September 18, 2023, 07:05:07 AM
The counsellor we saw twice told my husband it was time for him to get in touch with his dark side...basically telling him to leave and do whatever he wanted to do. I was shocked by this...no attempt at all to suggest that there was anything to work on .....not even to work on how to end the marriage if that was to be the result.

I personally do not believe there are "pro" and by implication "anti" marriage counselors who work with couples. The job of a licensed couple counselor is to facilitate whatever it is the couple wants to accomplish, whether to save a relationship, separate amicably, or to shed light on where the friction and issues are to help the couple. Which is perfectly in line with a lot of the advice. If it is obvious both people are not committed to the relationship then a good couple therapist can not "save" or fix anything. In fact if the goals of the two people are vastly different I am not sure there is anything that can be done.

xyzcf I wonder if the MC you two saw maybe realized that your husbands agenda did not match what the intent was. And sometimes if it is apparent that one party is struggling personally they may suggest individual therapy. My assumptions are in regards to professional therapists, I have come across others who have seen marriage "counselors" who were actually religiously affiliated or self titled helpers.
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First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

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#72: September 18, 2023, 07:42:19 AM
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xyzcf I wonder if the MC you two saw maybe realized that your husbands agenda did not match what the intent was. And sometimes if it is apparent that one party is struggling personally they may suggest individual therapy

I think it is worth at least exploring why a couple's marriage is ending after 32 years. Some aid in assisting eachg person to express themselves,some help for the LBS.

There was none of that. In all fairness, in the second session, Mr xyzcf said he was "done" coming to see the therapist, I could come if I wanted ...that's when the therapist said to him "it was time to get in touch with his bad side".

The therapist had seen us both individually first....I found this comment to be very hurtful to me...as though he was taking my husband's side without adequately evaluating what was happening in this 32 year marriage. It really felt to me that the therapist only thought my husband's "happiness" was all that mattered.

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« Last Edit: September 18, 2023, 03:03:26 PM by xyzcf »
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

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#73: September 18, 2023, 08:51:40 AM
I should possibly clear up that I do believe MC being pro- or anti-marriage has zero effect on MLCr leaving.

But there is one important difference:

+ pro-marriage MC works in protecting, supporting and saving two individuals during the process.

+Anti-marriage MC works in saving only the more damaged partner (usually MLCr that is having such deep personal crisis that even a blind person sees it),  relying the other partner (usually LBS) has the skills to pull through independently over time.

My personal experience on MC is similar to what xyzcf wrote. Having an anti-marriage MC can easily deepen the wounds you already have or create new ones. So pick your poison carefully Baxter1.

Alvin
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« Last Edit: September 18, 2023, 08:59:27 AM by AlvinTheMaker »
At time of BD.... Me: 43, XW: 41
Kids: G19,G18,G14,G12,S5
Together - 20½ Years, Married 19 Years

BD ("I don't love you"): Feb 2019, 
BD2 ("I don't want to fix this marriage."), Mar 2020
D filed May 2020, D finalized Dec 2020
I have moved on, and am in new relationship.

Lessons from Stoicism and REBT helped me to exit the chaos zone and become a better person. 

"Happiness and freedom begin with a clear understanding of one principle: Some things are within our control, and some things are not. - Epictetus"

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#74: September 18, 2023, 10:14:50 AM
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My assumptions are in regards to professional therapists, I have come across others who have seen marriage "counselors" who were actually religiously affiliated or self titled helpers.

Sample of one.

Therapy is not going to "fix" the marriage...as is often stated, MLC is NOT a marriage issue. However, a therapist should take into consideration the pain that the LBSer is experiencing if he/she is seeing both of you.

The best "counseling"  for my well being was from our parish priest ( as well as other priests along the way)who insisted on seeing Mr. xyzcf individually. Mr. xyzcf, prior to his crisis was a cradle Catholic, alter server for more than a decade and we attended mass every week together. For 35 years, our faith, values and beliefs were the same, until his crisis.

I felt comfort both in the times I spent with various priests and other's along the way and because he spoke to my husband directly... that was important in my own healing...because I understood then, that something was terribly wrong. Our parish priest also INSISTED that I protect myself financially which I did not want to do at the time because I thought it would hurt the chance of our reconciliation...he strongly encouraged me to take legal steps to protect myself.

My second and third counselors actually are both Christian professional therapists. I did not choose them because of their faith, but it sure was good for me to have therapists who understood my faith and beliefs.

As for "self titled helpers" I found a great deal of help from Rejoice Ministries daily devotionals.

Not everyone on HS has the same beliefs and values, especially about the permanency of marriage. What you can do is find a therapist that fits your world view...if you are not feeling at ease, do not hesitate to find someone else...professional or not.
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« Last Edit: September 18, 2023, 03:03:07 PM by xyzcf »
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

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#75: September 18, 2023, 11:42:56 AM
MC while MLCer is in escape and avoid is not considered "dropping the rope" IMO.  It wont change a thing and it's only going to create more anguish for LBS and prolong detachment.   

Honestly one man's opinion here.  It's not worth it.  Do it for other reasons like closure if you must.  But not for working on the marriage. 

For example Bax.  Tell the counselor you need space to heal and seeing as though your W is having the affair, she should move out, in the best interest of potentially saving the marriage and allowing each individual time to heal.  I would come up with individual goals like this but completely forget about working on the marriage, for now. 
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« Last Edit: September 18, 2023, 11:44:34 AM by WHY »

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Re: Just Getting Started in this Journey 2
#76: September 18, 2023, 01:23:04 PM
Thank you all for your help! From what she wrote in texts I don’t think reconciliation is on the menu.

She had dinner with a friend the other day who was twice divorced. Im guessing the conversation was:
W-I’m thinking of leaving Baxter F-Youve been together 21 years and have two kids, at least try MC!
W-(rolls eyes) ok, if I have to…

I don’t think much will come of it, I’m cautiously optimistic but I guess you don’t know until you try. I have a call into one and I will feel them out as to their stance on saving marriages. As for the one XY used, I’m appalled that an MC would say that! It’s ok Mr bank robber you can give into your dark side, it will be good to connect with your inner thief ….
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#77: September 18, 2023, 02:43:52 PM
Quote
There was none of that. In all fairness, in the second session, Mr xyzcf said he was "done" coming to see the therapist, I cold come if I wanted ...that's when the therapist said to him "it was time to get in touch with his bad side".

Hearing that would be like someone peeling skin off my arm. So sorry you went through that.
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#78: September 18, 2023, 02:56:56 PM
Hello,

I will add to the long list of those that tried the MC route. In fact the counselor met with my ex on two separate occasions to speak individually with my ex regarding the marriage and making a choice. In my situation, my ex enjoyed the limbo status we were in. Not moving away or towards me at all. The MC basically told her that her actions were completely unfair to me. Now, my ex was also lying and told her OM was out of the picture which he was not at all. However, the session themselves were blame sessions and not much was accomplished because my ex didn't want to communicate and she didn't want to fix the marriage.

However, I think you can use MC to set some strong boundaries for yourself. Feel free to apologize for the way she feels, but stand your ground on staying in the house. "I'm really sorry that you feel that way and I am sad that you think I have done this to you. However, I am not making any plans to leave this marriage or my home." Phrase it the way you want to, but use it to set some things. If she wants to be out, maybe she should be in the basement. If I was going to do it all over again. Listen, but don't let her rewrite the narrative and these sessions become time for you to be her emotional punching bag.

I think you have done an amazing job over the past six months. I was a complete wreck and just started hitting my stride. I never go over OM and it still riles me to this day. In the end, my ex filed for divorce and left. It didn't work out with OM and now, a decade later, my ex has some serious regrets. Your ex may think that you are the monster and how a free life will make her happy and feel fulfilled. The truth is that all she will do is trade in one set of issues for another set of issues. It's the reality of life.

Just know that part of detaching is to be open and willing to accept any outcome and you will be fine. Apathy is not caring at all. Detachment is still caring but accepting that she may or may not leave you and you will be fine with either endgame.

Have a great evening and just know you are doing an awesome job in dealing with an MLCer and raising your boys!

(((Ready)))





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Re: Just Getting Started in this Journey 2
#79: September 18, 2023, 04:41:40 PM
Ready-
Thank you for your kind words of encouragement! It hasn’t been the best 6 months of my life but I’m holding on. The kids and the dog have definitely been a life saver. Spending time with them, family and friends has gotten me through thus far. If I hadn’t found this website I don’t know what I would have done. The encouraging people and the advice when I was freaking the F out were like gold. Thank you to you and others who have shared their experiences.
As for the MC time will tell, I’ve been told to have zero expectations so I’m going in hoping for the best but expecting the worst. As for leaving the house that is not happening. Having some random A in my house, near the kids, not if I can help it. I try not think about the A, as I mentioned we used to work together and he is a shallow waste of breath. I’m just going day by day and trying to get detached, not there yet but getting closer.
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#80: September 18, 2023, 11:19:17 PM
Baxter1, my advice would be--if you start to feel defensive, then that would be a red flag. We just don't want you "beaten up" more than BD, OM, spouse turning into an alien has already done.

You don't have to be mean or belligerent, but remember that MLCers gaslight, lie, and bend things their way with 1/2 truths. Don't let this do any damage to you. Even with the best MC in the world, they can only work with what is presented to them and the MLCer can spin quite the tale to defend their fantasy life.

If this impedes your healing, then reconsider. You and your healing are the most important thing.
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« Last Edit: September 18, 2023, 11:23:25 PM by Reinventing »

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Re: Just Getting Started in this Journey 2
#81: September 19, 2023, 10:19:06 AM
I have a call into one and I will feel them out as to their stance on saving marriages.

(bold emphasis added by Nas)


As for the MC time will tell, I’ve been told to have zero expectations so I’m going in hoping for the best but expecting the worst.

Baxter, I fear your expectations continue to be such that you are setting yourself up for disappointment. As has been stated in the great advice you're being given, a marriage counselor can be a big help for two people who enter counseling both with the intention of saving the marriage. But their job is not to give advice or push towards a decision either way - therefore, whether they are personally "pro" or "anti" anything is (or at least should be) a moot point.

IMO, the idea of a pro-marriage MC is a misnomer, and a bit of an unethical premise. No MC enters a session where one party wants to end a marriage and the other party wants it to continue and essentially says, "Well, I am pro-marriage, therefore I'm here to help ONLY the party who wants the marriage to continue." If a therapist is approaching your wife as if she is not an autonomous adult capable of making her own decisions and that it's their job to change her mind, that's a red flag - even if what your wife thinks she wants right now is not what you want. 

I'm sorry to be blunt and it's not my intent to make you feel bad or cause you worry over MC. I learned so many of my life lessons the hard way, so now if I think a little bluntness will help, I speak up. We always say MLCers have a right to choose what they choose, even when we don't agree with those choices, or even when those choices hurt us. It's what makes detachment so necessary. I agree that going into MC with the idea that it will allow you to reiterate your stance on not leaving your home and not nesting - a neutral ground to re-lay that boundary for yourself - could be good. But please temper your expectations with regards to any MC's ability (or desire) to influence your wife's choices.
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Re: Just Getting Started in this Journey 2
#82: September 19, 2023, 11:35:45 AM
Nas,
Those truth darts hurt every time! I appreciate the bluntness, I’m going into MC with open eyes. If it was a regular M we would both have the goal of getting back together. I don’t feel she is sharing that. View with me. I feel she either wants the MC to validate her so she can leave or so she can check MC off the list. We’ll see how it goes, I still have to figure out insurance and scheduling so it may be a while before anything comes if this.
Thanks for your(sometimes painful) council.
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Re: Just Getting Started in this Journey 2
#83: September 22, 2023, 08:29:56 AM
More Journaling:

Set up an appointment to have an intake interview with the MC. I took the lead on this and will do the interview. As for W she seems to be slowing down a bit, she’s actually sleeping at the house most nights. This summer she would disappear for days in end. Maybe it’s because summer is over, or maybe she’s just getting burnt out.
My S17 seems mad at me and I’m not sure why. Trying to talk to him is like talking to a brick wall.
He is a teen so being this way is part of it but he’s not like this with W. Maybe he sees me not sleeping in the same room as W and he thinks I did something? Or maybe he’s just rebelling as teens do.
Hopefully something comes of the MC, I’m going in cautiously optimistic on this one. If nothing else we can hash out the fact that I’m not leaving the home. The thought of someone else in our home with the kids doesn’t really work for me.
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