[Lostinthewoods]

Hi team,
Just Journaling
Story so far:

H -43 me - 43
BD march 2020
OW from September 2019
Knew abt OW : March 2020
2 sons:  16y and 10y
T 23 years
Married 18
He left home multiple times to stay away from us.
Sept 2020 back in Oct 2020
Left after 2weeks back in Dec 2020
Left on the 1st week of Jan 2021 back in March
Left after a few weeks came back in Oct
Stayed for a month all of us went to the farm
Dropped us iback n Jan 2023 and left
Came back in March ( sons birthday)
Left in a few weeks
Came back in July for purely financial discussion left in a few days
Went to Philippines in August on return went straight to the farm (oct)
Came home October
His mom diagnosed with cancer, look care of her so well
He stayed till August
Went to Philippines business trip
Inspite of me asking him not to meet her , he was in touch ( physically too)
Came back Nov 23
Has been home since then but we.have a cold war going on

https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11840.0

[Lostinthewoods]

I had typed in so much , hit the back button and all that I had typed in vanished
Thank you FW for the encouragement. I try hard to think of him as a grumpy aunt like how french husband suggested , most of the times I am able to but on some days it gets to me. Thank you FH for your love.
I have gone through all your thread S&D , so many similarities yet so many differences.
Thank you Madluv for the insight
My question is is it even worth being with these people suffering so much and with so much pain?
I want to totally let go as in not suffer anymore.
I do not want to stand unconditionally, I don't want anyone else I just want to be happy without any trauma.
This is mental harassment for me, and does not seem to impact him at all.
So some updates
1. He has stopped pretending in front of family too.
2. He gave me a big chocolate bar for our anniversary he did not wish me, and I didn't wish too,  just thanked him for the chocolate and went about my business.
Yday we had a fight started with something silly, he started shouting at my younger son I stepped in , he wanted to shut me off and in the process hit my eye.
My elder son intervened
Conversation
S - did you hit mummy?
H - no
S asks the younger one, and he says yes
S - why did you abuse her
H - if I am abusive you'll do whatever you want to do , do what is right for you'll  ( as in I must separate or apply for divorce)
Now lots of exchange happened. Elder one asked me to leave
Summary of their convo
Why did you abuse mumma he gives some excuse and repeats the same thing.my son asks him if he wants to change , he keeps repeating that this is who he is.
S specifically asks about the OW he Says yes I screwed up but I am not doing it now , I am involved in her life to make it better
S asks him to tell me , he dies not say anything
He says trust is lost , he cannot build it back wants to be my best friend , that he will no commit, I came back and called him out on his lies, he says he does not love me , he is here because he wants to. He could have chosen to leave but has not left.
Once during the fight he threatened to leave. I stood firm and asked him to leave and not to threaten .
There was so much more , I am not able to pen it down because deep down it hurts so much. There is no proper healing.
I am not able to watch from a distance.
We are building a house together.
He thinks only physical abuse is abuse , silent treatments , ignoring me is not counted.
He says he has a responsibility towards her , I asked him where was his sense of responsibility when he cheated on me. He just kept mum and did not answer any of my questions.

[Lostinthewoods]

My son drove some hard truth darts. I don't know if he realises,  he was drunk.
He said he will be here till he is useful and disappear if he feels he is not needed

[Dragonfly33]

Lost, I always believe if there physical abused involved, standing is not a question anymore. I think I remember in one of your threads you mentioned your husband used to hit you. Obviously, he is still doing that even in front pf yöur child. You should protect yourself and your children first. Protect means remove yourselves from that toxic situation. Either you move out or your h should move it.

[UrsaMajor]

Lost,

OK, time to break out the 2x4. If your H hit you, all bets are off and the time to show him the door is here. Physical abuse is an absolute NO-GO in any situation. I don't care if he was drinking/drunk or not. One NEVER lays hands on their partner for ANY reason unless their partner is going to physically harm themselves (i. e. suicide) or in self-defense (the LBS is being physically attacked and needs to defend themselves).

What needs to happen in order for you to make that choice?

MLCH has violated a sacred trust and boundary here. What are the consequences for such a violation?

MLCH does NOT get a free pass because he had been drinking either. That was HIS CHOICE to dive into the bottle.

The bottom line is, like Dragonfly said, it is time to set him on the porch and lock the door behind him. Abusers do NOT get to stay in the house until they feel they are no longer needed. With the first hit, they are no longer needed. Period.

[Biscuit]

I agree Ursa, as a past victim of domestic abuse (not by my MLCer, I hasten to add - else there's no way I'd be standing) - it's time to call time on your H. There is never an excuse for such behaviour and you need to physically distance yourself from your H for your safety and that of your children. Unfortunately once this boundary is broken it invariably gets worse for the person(s) being abused.

[Treasur]

I agree with the other posters here.
It is much easier to see abuse clearly from the cheap seats.
Evidently your h does not consider a punch in the face to be abuse either.
But your sons do. And so should you.

I don’t know if he has always been abusive, disrespectful and controlling towards you. Or physically violent. But, in a way, it doesn’t matter bc he is now. And all any of us can do is deal with where we are right now.

I think tbh reaching a point where you yourself can call it what it is to yourself is the necessary first step. Way before figuring out what you are going to do to protect yourself and your sons from it. And if that was straightforward, no one would ever live in an abusive relationship for more than 5 minutes, would they?

Which is why I am going to strongly encourage you to reach out and find a DV charity or agency where you live so you can talk confidentially to someone who gets it, who knows the patterns of it and can help you figure out how to safely move away from it. Bc abuse is about control at its heart, and moving away from it threatens that need for control sometimes, so you need a safe route out. Or a safe way to get him out and not let him back in. And talking to someone who lives where you live, understands the culture and legal issues where you live, will also allow you to talk in much more detail than you might do here. Some challenges in life need a village imho.

But when your h tells you and your sons that ‘this is who he is’ and that ‘you should all do what is right for you’, imho you should believe him.

You can stand if you want, although you may just as reasonably decide not to, but stand in a safe space far far away from this kind of abuse.

[Nas]

I’m very sorry for the pain you’re feeling and for the turmoil your family is experiencing. I’m going to say some hard truths may not be pleasant to hear. (I haven’t read back through all of your posts so I apologize, but I do believe I have enough information just simply from your most recent post. And as always, I’m just a stranger on the Internet, just saying some things that I hope will help, either now or in the future. )
The way you described him hitting your eye, the language struck me, the way it wasn’t really described, “it could’ve been an accident” or it was just something that happened in the course of other things happening. Sort of unconsciously minimized, that was familiar to me.
It wasn’t nothing, and he’s done it before. Not an accident or the results of being drunk; it’s a pattern. It’s who he is. (Again, I know I don’t know you, or him, and you are the only one who knows your entire story, so maybe using such definitive language sounds presumptuous on my part, but I’m willing to risk that here.)

The way that you describe your children asking “why did you abuse Mom” is chilling to me. The almost casual use of “Abuse” as just a word, sounds like it’s normalized, like it’s something that isn’t good, but it’s also something that happens.
For most people being abused, abuse becomes something other than absolutely appalling, shocking and disgusting. It becomes ingrained into life. The longer it goes on (and often the worse it becomes) the more it becomes something that can be explained. There’s always a “reason” that other people just wouldn’t understand because they don’t know all the details.

Details are moot in abuse. The “cause” never warrants the effect. Ever. This is not your fault. He has a problem that is close to unfixable (again, I may sound alarmist to you but I’m okay with that because his behavior is alarming). Your husband is not going to walk through a metaphorical MLC tunnel and come out the other side ceasing to be abusive. He’s abusive. Maybe he is also in MLC but that doesn’t matter because he’s abusive. He needs more than time to look within himself to stop being abusive. He is not going to have an epiphany and change out of the blue.

I don’t know if you are currently in therapy, but if not, I would strongly encourage you to do so, and also for your sons. Don’t underestimate what you all have already internalized to this point. He doesn’t deserve to have such a hold over you. Set yourself free because, trust me, with an abusive person, even if they vanish, they will never set you free, you have to do it for yourself.
Everyone here is rooting for you, please take care of yourself.
xx
Nas

[Lostinthewoods]

Hi Everyone, 
Thank you so much for your concern. Yes I understand what you all have said here. While I understand NOW that  physical abuse should have been called out at the first instance ( which I failed).
Why did I not call it out ?  It was not an everyday affair or something he did regularly,  in these 25yrs we've been together he has done this very rarely maybe 5 or 6 times ( except for the first 6m after BD when it was almost everyday)
I know I can see some of you fuming , some rolling some even exasperated.
I now understand that this is not healthy and do not tolerate it . In fact I  asked him to leave, but he is still here( i know he will leave soon , I can feel it.) He knows now that he cannot ever repeat it. He knows it is a hard hard boundary now. Earlier I have not really laid it as a boundary because I  thought the frequency could not be termed as abusive. I had heard much worse stories. Only after counselling and talking to friends did I understand it was not ok( I have never discussed what happens at home to anyone, not a soul) I thought we had to resolve our problems within the four walls of our house .

There is so much uncertainty.
The kids love him and still want their dad. Since the last fight the environment in the house is so uncomfortable and heavy.

Let me tell you how he behaves now:
He has stopped doing anything in the house
He does not speak to any of us , even to the little one, he used to talk to him a lot.
Even if there is something to say he does not look into our eyes or for that matter in our direction at all.
On the recent fight day I trued to push him away as he was towering over my son and intimidating him. My elder one says I should not have done that.
Will journal later.

[Treasur]

Please don’t feel ashamed or as if anyone here is rolling their eyes. It isn’t your shame to carry, it’s his. And every single LBS here, every one of us, at least for a little while, tolerated some kind of abusive behaviour from our spouse that we never imagined we would.

Well done you though for reaching a point where you laid down that line in the sand.

I am sorry for the heaviness in your house. I hope you are right and he leaves soon - then all you will need to do is decide how you will prevent him from coming back, or this version of him anyway. I suspect you and your kids will be surprised by just how much easier and lighter your home feels when he goes.

[Reinventing]

Please don’t feel ashamed or as if anyone here is rolling their eyes. It isn’t your shame to carry, it’s his. And every single LBS here, every one of us, at least for a little while, tolerated some kind of abusive behaviour from our spouse that we never imagined we would.

Agreed. We are not rolling our eyes. We want you and your kids to be safe.

[UrsaMajor]

On the recent fight day I trued to push him away as he was towering over my son and intimidating him. My elder one says I should not have done that.

By doing things like this, you a) put yourself in harms way and H has proven that he has the impulse control that God gave a turnip and b) you are initiating a physical altercation yourself with him which, in turn, lowers his threshold to respond with physical violence.

Physical abuse, whether it is once in a blue moon or every week or whatever, is abuse. Period. The frequency is irrelevant... It is never acceptable.

Please, do not see this as an eye roll. What I am trying to get across is the severity of the situation. Once the border to physical violence has been crossed, it becomes easier and easier to cross it again.

H's behavior towards your kids, specifically towards your and the youngest as you describe it, tells me all I need to hear to know that you and your kids are living in danger. the time to get out of danger is now.... before something happens....

[Nas]

Why did I not call it out ?  It was not an everyday affair or something he did regularly,  in these 25yrs we've been together he has done this very rarely maybe 5 or 6 times…

I’m definitely not fuming or rolling my eyes. I am, however, strongly remembering where I was at the time I could have made a similar statement to this.
I specifically only quoted the part of your statement referring to pre-BD. I could list out all the ways that abusers shift and mold the dynamic so that exactly this happens: their abuse gets normalized as just something that happens every so often, nothing to be alarmed about, he very rarely gets physical. It’s insidious, all the other ways that it seeps in and conditions us to “just live with it.“ The subtle language tricks, the financial abuse, the coercive control, the isolation, the cutting down and then occasionally building up, but doing it in a way that lets us know that they are the only one that sees that in us… all of that culminates in this idea that we are not actually being abused, we are getting exactly the relationship we deserve and no more and no less.
I’m going to really implore you at this point to let go of the idea of “MLC“ (at least for now) and just see this as a man whose abuse tactics have ramped up at this time in his life, regardless of what age he happens to be and whatever “reasons” contribute to this ramp up. Five or six times over 25 years is far too much. One time over 25 years is far too much. And one day, when you are ready, you will look back and realize that in between those five or six times, he was not an emotionally intelligent, supportive partner engaging with you in healthy communication and mutual respect but then, oops, a couple of times he switched from that into someone who would be abusive. The times in between, the abuse was  in the form of conditioning, preparing you to minimize and accept at least partial blame for the next time that it was loud and overt.

I am glad that you asked him to leave, but I truly encourage you to reach out to whatever resources you have near you, a counselor, a domestic violence center, your primary care doctor even (they can refer you to resources), so that you can form a plan because as you say, he’s still there and he’s not going to do anything that benefits anyone but him. Control, even when it’s not glaringly obvious, is something he is not going to let go of.

[Lostinthewoods]

On the recent fight day I trued to push him away as he was towering over my son and intimidating him. My elder one says I should not have done that.

By doing things like this, you a) put yourself in harms way and H has proven that he has the impulse control that God gave a turnip and b) you are initiating a physical altercation yourself with him which, in turn, lowers his threshold to respond with physical violence.

I understand this now, it is a learning for me. Will never go close to him when he is drunk and when he is angry , distance is my mantra from now on.
I think he is totally depressed, he shouted at my younger one again today- reason he wanted to eat biscuits q few hours before dinner , dinner was not ready it would take a few more hours to prepare , I just told him not to shout from a distance.
Thank you Nas, for being so clear , yes what you said about him not being available emotionally is so true and there were definitely subtle forms of abuse like biting the teeth or showing irritation. Then I stop, knowing that I should not upset him. There have been days I've let myself go, but like you said when I look back it was not communicative or healthy

I am not upset with any of your advice, always happy to learn and grow.
I only said that because I know that probably you may not understand why I am in this relationship. Some of my friends wonder too.

[Nas]

On the recent fight day I trued to push him away as he was towering over my son and intimidating him. My elder one says I should not have done that.

By doing things like this, you a) put yourself in harms way and H has proven that he has the impulse control that God gave a turnip and b) you are initiating a physical altercation yourself with him which, in turn, lowers his threshold to respond with physical violence.

I understand this now, it is a learning for me. Will never go close to him when he is drunk and when he is angry , distance is my mantra from now on.

I'm sorry, I don't mean to harp on this, but this is an example of normalized abuse. This is part of how we get conditioned to explain away and accept abuse. Do you see how you're taking on blame for his action: "He hit me because I was standing close enough for him to hit me." No. He hit you because he's abusive. Statements like "You put yourself into harm's way" get internalized into self-blame for our own abuse. The reality is there shouldn't be a "harm's way." HE creates "harm's way" when in fact, your physical being has the right to be anywhere without worrying that being there will get you punched in the face.

[Dragonfly33]

Lost I am really worried for you and your kids. Please find a place where you can go and stay safely. DO NOT wait until it happens again. It sounds to me that you are living in fear by saying you stay away from him when he's drunk. This is not the solution. I am worried for the safety of your children. For now he is hurting you. What will happen if he starts hurting your children. This is very very bad for the mental health of your kids, them seeing you being physically violated by your husband. I hope you have somewhere to go where you are safe. Whether midlife crisis or not physical violence is a NO go.

[Lostinthewoods]

Thank you Nas and Dragonfly. I understand that this is unhealthy. I did talk to a lawyer. Like I said right now my prospects are low. Since I'm working the court will not grant a great alimony. Yes if I'm prepared to take the tough route and ok with downsizing completely I can do it.
I have asked him to leave. Multiple times I've made it clear to him that I do not want this kind of relationship with him. And during the last fight I did tell him i will go to the authorities if he hits me again. I have drawn a hard boundary and I think he knows that. I will be safe I know that.
I've gone completely dark on him. Absolutely no conversations. We do not even have dinner together. As he has it at his desk and me by myself. This is ok by me right now. It does hurt but I am able to tide over. I read, watch movies and keep myself busy doing something or just lazing. I will journal my journey as I progress.
I am hoping to grow stronger. Well stronger is relative because I feel I am stronger than I was at BD . I now have the courage to ask him to leave. Before I was scared he will leave. I wish someday I will be able to live a life without compromise.

Just a few update
He is talking to the kids again ( they had to talk to him first  )
Very limited conversations though.
He tells me about important things I either nod or respond with hmm . If I need further clarifications I ask.
He has stopped taking me out. I don't ask to go out either. We used to do that often. Even though we did not talk too much.
Just getting on with my life.
I will not take physical abuse ever again. I did it but not anymore.

[Lostinthewoods]

Good morning to my dear friends,
Just updates and Journaling
For the past few days he has been warming upto the kids, talking a pinch more than the week after the fight.
He responds to any questions I ask even if I ask the kids and he has the answer.
Started talking a little more to me. ( I've just stepped back. Not getting pulled into the drama again.)
I exist in my own circle not interested in inviting him in at this point.
He started cooking dinner again ( he had stopped during the week of the fight)
My conclusion for the time being: extremely childish, does not want to take accountability for his actions.
Wants to do what he wants.
I've stopped caring anymore,
I am clear what I want in any relationship( with him or otherwise)
Not looking for anything else ,want to recoup and build myself.
This is me at 4 years after BD

[Dragonfly33]

Lostinwoods good to hear your update. However, I see a different dynamics here. Your h is being manipulative here. He acts ok again after hitting you so you think he‘s being kind to keep you in the loop. From my cheap seats here and from what I read in your last post, I think you are scared of stirring the situation so you try not to cause any problem thus doing your own thing. I feel so bad for your kids to be honest. The trauma they have to endure in this kind of environment is not reversible and this will affect them immensely in their adulthood.

I hope one day you will have the courage to leave your husband.

[Lostinthewoods]

Thank you Dragonfly for your perspective and encouragement. This is what I love about this place. There is no judgement or aprehending. Just concern and perspective from outside the MLC/whatever Box.
I agree with you regarding his manipulation. I am becoming more and more aware of unhealthy behavious. I wish I had known all this all those years ago when I thought that this was his way of showing love. ( how foolish ) had I known maybe i would have seen the red flags and started laying my boundaries. But alas that is not to be.
I wish they teach these things to our kids when they are in undergrad atleast. Helping each of us to understand personalities .
Only after BD did I read and come across all this .
I am maintaining peace because there is no better way out. I am not the chaser anymore,  nor is he. Maybe one day I will be courageous enough to say Enough.
Sadly That day is not today.
Incident
Yesterday my son asked him to take him on a drive. He said OK.  Like I said I have not been talking to him. He leaves home without saying anything,  I settled down to watch Netflix.
He came back in a few mins and my son kept asking me to join to which I refused and they did not go out and he slept from abt 4.30 to 7.30

[FaithWalker]

Dear LITW,
Just checking in with you.  How is your March going so far?

[Lostinthewoods]

Thank you so much for checking on me FW.
So let me update you about what has happened since.
We are building a house together,  he wanted the building design to be changed but the builder refused to. He was extremely upset spewed anger to the builder. I spoke to the builder ( she is my friend too, also went through her husband's MLC ( I tjink as all the signs were there, he apologised to her in the last days.he is no more). 
She agreed to do it for me.
Now when the negotiations were happening between hee and me, i did not tell my MLCER what conversations i had wirh the builder , the first day i returned back he asked me what had happened in a loud voice , my children immediately came and stood around , so he gave me an excuse that we had to buy water and took me out and started his complaints. I stood my ground and told him that the way he spoke to her was not ok, i think he didn't expect it ( i have never called him out till now) it was a first for.me. he tried justifying why he lost his cool etc.
Then he said that I was like my dad very passive and did not know how to stand for my rights.
I just replied "i know to take care of.myself H , I know how to draw boundaries, I didn't have boundaries with a few people and that was intentional"
He also mentioned that he would not be around too long.
I asked are you going to sc.... around ( just could not control myself)for which he said no, that he would not be alive.
I told him how he could have handled the conversation better, he kept arguing,  I kept quiet and told him to do what he pleases as it would be his choice.
The builder was supposed to call him and confirm that they were going to make the changes. They didn't call till noon, he was restless and kept asking me why they haven't called. I replied that they call when they have made arrangements. He said he will let them know how upset he is etc.
I said my advice is that you understand what they are saying and if it is as per your need just say thank you and be happy.  I leave it to you to make that choice and walked.away.
This me is someone new.
I spoke.to my Thera about this. She gave me a.perspectivd . He was taking me out to do the shouting because now the kids have started questioning him. Till now no one questioned him and he lived without any accountability.
Once the building papers were signed, we have gone back to our silence. Nothing much except if I need him to get something from the shop, or something related to the kids.
Like today both of us were off. I watched movies and he worked on some programming. Not a word was exchanged between us.



Long story

[Nas]

Can I ask what you mean by "I didn't have boundaries with a few people and that was intentional?"

It strikes me as very sad for your children that they seem to have come to feel that they must be on alert and be your protector. The way you describe your talk with your therapist, it sounds as if you perceive your therapist as saying your children have begun to hold your H accountable. Is this really a role you want your kids to have?  And is the result acceptable, that rather than be abusive in front of the kids or others, he's learning to do it more privately?
I'm curious if you see your current situation changing, and if so how...

[Lostinthewoods]

OK, let me start at the beginning and explain how marriage works in my country more importantly my family, once you are married , it is a lifelong commitment. Marriages are normally arranged by the elders. I was the first to break that and ask to be married to someone I wanted. Divorce is unheard of it is literally until death do us apart.
If the marriage breaks the woman is generally blamed and 2nd chances are very rare. ( I'm not saying it us not there) it's not prevalent. Parents spend their lives savings to get the daughter married ( lots of money )
Thank you Nas for your concern
Let me be very frank here, I don't see me leaving this marriage atleast till my younger finishes school. ( finances, teenage etc. ) I've seen my elder one go into a very low place don't want the same happening to my little one.( he loves his dad)
But will I continue to blur boundaries - no that is not going to happen anymore.
This is the boundary I didn't have, why because saving my marriage was my priority. Now it is not.
I am in a better place. If you had seen me earlier I was a clear study for a doormat.
I've come a long way from that.
I've learnt to say no, and speak calmly and state my points. Lot's of personal growth.
Am I ok with this situation? Absolutely not.
Imagine living under the same roof like strangers.
I don't want my children to learn this. I keep talking to them. I've been truthful with regards to my emotions. They understand that what is happening at home is not healthy.
While he did take me out to talk. I refused to let him scream. I refused to listen when he screamed. These are the small ways in which I am laying my lines.
Do not know what is tomorrow. 
Believe me when I say, every night I think of how to leave this relationship with minimal damage to my children. Not a night has gone by when I think how I misjudged.
Multiple times in the day I want to ask him to leave.
In fact I have, he has not left.
Gotta go. Break is over.
Lot's of love to you wonderful people who don't deserve this.

[Treasur]

I am very sorry that your circumstances are as they are, but it’s a good reminder that not all LBS live in societies where the legal and cultural constraints are exactly the same.

Out of interest, what would your situation be, legally, financially and in terms of family support, if your h decided to leave permanently? Could you financially support yourself and your sons if you had to? Do you have a contingency plan? Bc of course you can’t control what he does and it can make us feel just a little stronger if we quietly know that we do have a back up plan? Do you live somewhere where your h could legally choose to make ow a second wife? ( I grew up in the Middle East, so different ways of looking at marriage are not unfamiliar to me.)

So, it sounds as if, for the moment, your choice from what doubtless feels like a whole bunch of not great options, is to find some way to live beside your h as he is right now? But to try to find a way to do so that feels easier, ok for your sons and differently than before? Do you have much support available from your own family? Or other women you might know who have been forced by circumstances to do something similar? Bc safe places for support and validation in RL can make tough things just a little bit easier. In some societies, people might not openly talk about these things but I would be surprised if you were the only woman you know who has struggled with something similar to your own situation, but women tend to talk about these things under the radar, don’t they?

It sounds as if you are now beginning to find your own way to put some boundaries in place around his behaviour, to find ways to say No or to just not engage. What I susoect will help is to also start shifting your exoectations of him….to slowly stop thinking of him as your h, more as the father of your sons who happens to live there. More of a grumpy uncle roommate than a h, if that makes sense. To slowly detach yourself from what he does or doesn’t do, to shrug your shoulders, to walk away. But also to keep you and your sons safe from his behaviour as much as you can. And meanwhile to turn your focus and energies away from him and towards you and your son’s lives.

You may feel like what you are doing now are a series of small things, but actually they are quite big things. And the more you reclaim those boundaries, the easier it will become to build on them. But it is likely that your h will push back against them bc unhealthy, self centred, angry people tend not to like boundaries much. As long as you feel physically safe, that’s fine….let him have as many tantrums as he wants, just walk away as you say.

What else is going on in YOUR life regardless of all this?
What nice things are coming up soon? Fun things with your kids to look forward to? Any plans for new activities or adventures that add a little GAL spice?

[Nas]

Thanks for the clarification, Lost. My question about how you see your situation changing was not specific to leaving the marriage, but about the day to day. I imagine building a house together adds tremendous additional stress, and I hope that you have good guidance on how that will actually play into everything should he decide to make any sudden unilateral decisions (as these folks are wont to do).

[Lostinthewoods]

H Treasure/ Nas,
Sorry for the delayed message/response. Just caught up with work and quite a few visitors. Also generally feeling tired and not wanting to do anything.
OK to answer your questions Treasure
In terms of family support I have my sisters support. She tells me.she will stand by me whatever my decision.
Finances: yes I can take care of my day to day living. Big downsize from the current lifestyle and also education of my children will suffer.
As per law he cannot marry another woman however living together is not punishable by law but it can be used as grounds for divorce
I do not have support places. No one talks about these things as it is pretty shameful and mostly considered a fault of the woman. However few of them did tell me their stories. They have continued living in these situations silently even without confronting the spouse.
In fact I was advised to do so. But I could not live like that and you know my story so far.
Yes right now my way of living is to not engage 99% of the time and 10% to state what I do not accept ( not that it will matter too much. He will do what he pleases)
Yes Nas I do know how things could go. I try to live one day at a time.
We've had a big blow up last week. He had dome conversations with my elder son.
I'll give you the details in the next update soon.

[Lostinthewoods]

Let me just summarize what happened a few weeks ago.
1. He very casually told me that he was not putting money in the kids savings fund.
I blew my top.
What angered me  was when I tried to have a polite reasoning conversation he shook his head to make me look stupid.
2 he was upset , he had planned on going to the farm( he dis not walkout) he left the next morning without telling me
3. He had told us he would be back the same night but did not return neither did he call/msg and let us know he would be delayed.
4. When he returned I did ask him why he did not inform about the delay and he blew his top.
Basically screaming and saying it was enough and I did not want him just a few days ago so why should I care.
I just told him as long as he stays here he has to inform me.
As usual my elder son came to see what was happing and called him out on his behaviour.
The MLCer had a long chat
Typical blaming -
1. Your mother is  like her mom who controlled my dad. ( not true)
2. The marriage day was all about pleasing others for her and not abt the marriage.
( context I belong to a different culture than him, I was the first in many generations to choose whom I wanted to marry. So the atire I wore was based on my culture. He did not care then.)
3. He got my MIL the same atire that he had got me to dress up as a bride( the same colour pattern erc) . I was upset and called him out. Eventually both of us wore the same attire. I was upset. But I never brought it up after that day.
So he tells my son that he lost the spark with me that day and he does not feel anything (ziltch) when he holds my hand.
4. Spoke a lot about the OW, he gave him a slightly different story and has told him that he is helping her financially so that her daughters will not follow the same path as her.
He is willing to live alone said to my son ( I have explicitly asked but no action there)
He repeats that the marriage is broken.
He also agreed that he brought this upon himself.
On my son asking him what he is willing to do he has said he was willing to make any compromise expect stopping the financial aid.
My son had the talk with me. I have told him I meed time as I am not sure.
That we need therapy.  To heal before any decisions.
I understand he is only seeing my anger but not consequences. Working on getting a therapist my previous therapist is not here anymore., and placing consequences.

[Lostinthewoods]

Hi Everyone, 
Any insights from outside the stupid MLC box I am in.
Any thoughts.

[Anoi]

I see similarity, though my H is very polite and nice to me in general, as soon as i put the time boundaries (being home after work in time) he starts monstering or if i mention that OW situation should stop. Basically as soon as i am trying to control (in his opinion) his newfound "freedom" i see the monster. And ofc the part of this freedom is OW.
Unfortunately nothing new under the moon, your husband and mine are playing the same sad script...
I feel your pain and i am sorry about everything that is happening to you, i hope with you that it will get better for You, that sadness will leave your home.

[UrsaMajor]

I see similarity, though my H is very polite and nice to me in general, as soon as i put the time boundaries (being home after work in time) he starts monstering or if i mention that OW situation should stop. Basically as soon as i am trying to control (in his opinion) his newfound "freedom" i see the monster. And of course the part of this freedom is OW.

I believe that what you will find is that ANY attempt to establish boundaries or introduce consequences for his actions will activate Monster Mode. Mid-Lifers do NOT want to deal with or accept that they are responsible for their actions and the consequences resulting form their actions so, if the LBS establishes boundaries AND ENFORCES THEM, the Mid-Lifer gets their knickers in a twist because... well... mean ol' Mr. (or Ms.) Reality is a real buzzkill and the consequences  are usually seemingly unpleasant.  Like the saying goes, "Do stupid things, win stupid prizes."

[Lostinthewoods]

I agree UM and Anoi,
I have noticed this too with him, as long as I so not broach the topic of the OW or any of his other behaviours there is status quo maintained in the house, we live a quiet and separate lives.  When I brought up the money and him not informing us , he spewed and screamed. It almost seemed like I was wrong, I would have even agreed pre MLC, Now I know I'm not wrong and these are basic requirements in a relationship.
I guess we just need the courage to start giving away stupid prizes for stupid behaviour.
Can someone advise me on how to go about starting a conversation regarding what I want ? I am not still strong, tears start rolling down when he talks poorly or screams, not like begging and crying ,just tears.

[Treasur]

Fwiw I think you may have reached the stage where part of you realises certain things are true in your ‘new normal’ but another bit of your mind is trying to catch up and figure out how to turn that into action?

I want to say clearly before I say anything else that your feelings and wishes and frustrations are all completely normal and reasonable and understandable.
And
Anyone can only do their best with the situation as it is, no matter how we feel it should be.

What struck me in your earlier post was that your list was a whole bunch of stuff that you simply can’t control….no matter how reasonable your reactions and feelings are….what your h thinks or says, what happened twenty years ago, whether he comes or goes or tells you about it or listens to anything you say.
The MLC box as you called it.
And we step out of the box when we change our assumptions, which changes our expectations, which changes our reactions and actions.
You step out of his MLC box by doing less and differently, not more and the same.

I am also conscious that, at least for now, you have chosen to not take steps to end your marriage bc of financial reasons, the context of where you live and the impact on your kids’ future wellbeing. I am going to assume that is still true and no one here will judge you for that. We get it and different LBS in different situations make different decisions. If that changes of course our advice might change along with it, but right now I’m going to respond based on that assumption about your own goals.

So - and I apologise if this sounds a bit blunt - if you are not ready to end your marriage, then it sounds as if you need to learn a new way of living despite your h’s behaviour and one that repositions him to the outside edges of your life to reduce the damage, distress or risk he poses. Does that make sense?

How do you do that, based on many experiences here?
You step out of his MLC box.
You focus on other things and other people.
You accept the real practical limits of what you can control and what you cannot.
You keep an eye on your own emergency red lines that might cause you to change your goals and choices.
You let go of any expectation that your h will change his behaviour based on anything you do or say or want or feel….which means you say very little, ask very little and expect nothing much at all from him….which also keeps you out of falling back into the MLC box.

What does that look like?
Perhaps like this…

as long as I so not broach the topic of the OW or any of his other behaviours there is status quo maintained in the house, we live a quiet and separate lives.  When I brought up the money and him not informing us , he spewed and screamed

And you might want to ask yourself, if you take this approach of trying to live a life beside but outside his MLC box, what the real benefit would be of having any conversation at all with him about what you want? And why you would expect any conversation to work differently than the last few you have tried? Which will probably take you towards thinking about what you really want vs what you need, why, what you can control and can’t, and how you might achieve some of what you and your kids need and want without involving him at all.

[Lostinthewoods]

Just an update,
We had a talk, he reiterated that the marriage is over and I can choose whatever I want. I told him he made the choices and if he is going to continue in that path then he can leave as I cannot accept OW in his life.
He tells me he never told me that he would choose her and that in the first 6 months of all this issue he told me that he wants me and did not want the OW.( the MLC brain, or just pure madness). He even justified that I had given him mental trauma and that was the reason he behaved the way he did.
My son reiterated that physical abuse had no justification whatsoever and he seemed to understand. In the morning we had an argument about some missing finances. I asked him during the course of the conversation if he wanted to make this work. And he said he was here because he wanted to make this work.
Later he tells me he is here because he wants to be with me. So many contradicting statements.
I feel so lost right now. Don't know if I am handling this right. If I am talking to him in the right manner. I mean I did not hold back. I told him as long as he has someone else we cannot have anything ( have been barking this for a long time now).
I even told him I will not be any other relationship with him other than the spouse. More later

[Lostinthewoods]

And also for the first time he told me that he brought this upon himself. And that he is not in touch with her for the last 6 months. And that he is not romantically involved with her. I did not accept, asked him for proof of messages, he also challenged me saying that he does not have FB on his phone. This was the way they communicated earlier

[Lostinthewoods]

My messages have been all over the place, I'm sorry, frantic typing. ( emotionally drained)
This conversation happened when money was missing again. I called him out on it.
That is how all this started

[Treasur]

No need to apologise, we get it. It’s a rather sad irony that we LBS have to do some of our best thinking to protect ourselves and our kids at the very time when we are reeling with exhaustion and confusion.
We get it, we’ve probably all been there.
And perhaps it’s why some of the vets place so much emphasis on disengaging enough from the chaos to give yourself time to breathe and think x

[Lostinthewoods]

Thank you for your messages Treasure, was like I had someone looking out for me. In all the chaos I feel so good when I read the responses and insights here. It makes me feel normal.
"You let go of any expectation that your h will change his behaviour based on anything you do or say or want or feel….which means you say very little, ask very little and expect nothing much at all from him….which also keeps you out of falling back into the MLC box."

In regards to the above advise treasure , I have let go of any expectations mostly
The only thing that upsets me is when he is messing with the money meant for building the house and last time was about the children's fund.
I don't know how to step back and allow him to do whatever he pleases. He now claims it is his money and will do whatever he pleases with it.
We don't talk anymore. Only with regards to the house. The children communicate anything regarding themselves directly to him.
Monster happens when I hold him accountable.
Last night he did say that he was going through something. He had earlier acknowledged to my son about midlife crises.
I did raise the fact that he abandoned us for almost a year. His response was yes I was not hear but nothing stopped. ( he kept sending finances)
I just told him that was the most important and how it impacted the children and me.
(He has no remorse as of now , my opinion. He lovea the children. I can sense that. From saying he wants to make it work in the morning to again telling me our relationship is over in the evening just because I called him out on mismanagement of finances. )
I just replied that a MLC is no excuse for irresponsible and poor behaviour.

[in it]

I just replied that a MLC is no excuse for irresponsible and poor behaviour.

And that's it, right there in a nutshell. 

[UrsaMajor]

I just replied that a MLC is no excuse for irresponsible and poor behaviour.

[Lostinthewoods]

There is this question in my mind , I know it's something I have to work on.
Why am I punished by him when he is the one who messed up so so ....much.
He monsters when I catch him in a lie. Again he is the one who lied and I am made the one who gets shouted at and he turns it around

[in it]

Maybe he doesn't want to take any accountability so he lays it all off on you. It's all your fault so he doesn't accept any blame. With blame comes shame. He's not going to accept the truth. You catch him in a lie then he didn't get away with something he tried too.

It's not healthy to live with someone who tries to confuse you this way. You don't deserve to be punished for him being irresponsible..

[Treasur]

You might want to Google about DARVO.
It’s a pretty standard way that both disordered humans and small children react when they are challenged and feel uncomfortable about it. Usually bc the truth of what they’ve done is rather unpleasant. It’s not about you at all. Either punishment or reward.

Given that - as I understand it from what you have posted so far - you can’t control how he uses the money or perhaps access any of it directly yourself, do you have a plan B?

[Lostinthewoods]

That is the problem , no plan B,.have to finish this house. The bank transfers the money to his account as he will be paying the Emi( I paid the down payment and the amount for the plot) loan is a joint loan . Stupid banking system now that I am in this situation,  it would not have mattered otherwise.  Even if is possible and If I ask the bank to transfer to me he will most likely bring the roof down.i don't want to go there. My children are so stressed even if they don't tell me.i can s3nse it. It's such a mess , this horrible human thatnhe has become

[Lostinthewoods]

I'm trying to look back and see, if he was this person. I feel so stupid to have not realised for 25years. I think he was not so bad . There were a few instances but I dont remember this level of arrogance, ego.
And he claims he is not in touch with the OW, and yet the monstering is so awful. I cannot tell you some things he has said. You'll will ask me to just leave. I've also reacted to his stupidity sometimes it is hard to be calm when someone does not answer you.i know it is my decision. Sometimes I wonder if I'm going to be one of those wife's who just exists in the marriage without anything in it.
I feel so helpless and hopeless.
I did ask him to put everything up for sale and that we.can go our separate ways . He said OK and the next day he is a different person. Asking if I need anything etc. While I have not been talking. He just exists in the house. How is it possible.
Oh god this is crazy . I just hope I don't go nuts soon.
Detachment comes and goes. It is not consistent for me. It was easy when he was not around but it impacted my children.
What a quandary for us LBS.

[Lostinthewoods]

OK last night he said to my folded hands. What should I do, should I fall at her feet. The drama. And I thought he didn't know to act.
I was calmer and called him out on how his behaviour impacted us and how he kept saying that we were pretending. I told him I hope.you understand the pain you have put us through. That's when he told me that he was going through something himself too.
I simply called him out and said I have done enough research about MLC. He asks me then why don't you understand what I'm going thro'
I said because I understood I'm still here. Otherwise I would not be here and also told him abt mlc not being a justification for irresponsible behaviour etc.
Last night was intense. I'll keep posting as and when I remember.  Any thoughts and insights are always welcome. I love reading your responses. Keeps me sane

[Lostinthewoods]

Please bear with me
Why us he here if he does not want to honour the marriage. I have been clear and the last 2 years also shown it clearly that I will not engage.
Why so much hatred and anger against me .
He talks to my son so clearly and politely and also spoken to a common friend about some parts of it he has to him that he is not in touch with her just helping her financially.
To me he says he cannot stop being in touch with her, ( to help, not romantically)
He says he will not be transparent which is my condition.
OK let me rake it few days at a time and see.

Love you guys for your patience. The last week was very tough. Too much of rambling
But I dont know where else to go.

[in it]

As long as he's still there he will continue to channel his anger and monstering out on you.  This is what you are dealing with now.
Looking back won't help much.
You need some peace so you can get your head on straight.He's keeping you confused one  day it's one thing the next day it's another or within hours his mind what he says and behavior changes.  It will help your children too. Don't be so understanding your brains fall out. You do not have to put up with this.
He shouldn't be helping the OW financially he has his own family he should be helping.

As long as you are still 'there" he will continue to do whatever he wants. What you allow continues.

[Lostinthewoods]

Thank u init for your response.
Yes the yo yo ing really gets to us. The confusion and uncertainty. The reason I call him out / have a fight is because I want him to know that I am not ok with what he is doing. Don't want to keep quiet and give him a free leash.

( will.he do better I don't know).
Treasure regarding the money, i have asked the builder to ask him for all the pending amounts as and when the mortgage gets credited to his account. I may not have complete control over the money but most of it may not get misused if he has to make all the pending payments. This is the best possible plan B I could think of.
I am trying to change the door mat I was and saying yes to everything he did. did it to make the marriage.  Not that it mattered anyway.
I want him to know I will not take whatever he feels.like doing. A tiny step in understanding that I have needs.too.

[MadLuv]

The most important thing to understand is that making sense of anything is impossible. They stay because they don’t have the mental capacity to make major decisions. They can make stupid decisions that benefit them, but they aren’t sure leaving benefits them. They also can’t handle pressure.

After my XH left and I tried to have a rational conversation trying to warn him he was going to lose his job due to his actions, he said “ no one is paying attention to me”. He also got soooooo uoset when I tried to tell him what he was doing to his family. His response? “ you don’t care how I feel and what this is doing to me!!!! “


They can’t truly see beyond themselves in the state they are in.

[Lostinthewoods]

Hi madluv,
Thank you for sharing your experience. I understand this is soo unimaginably crazy.
I don't want to live like this given a choice. I also know making the choice is in my hands and the abuse can stop.
There are many ifs and buts. I know i will get to a place of healing. Right now priority is the house , sons college.
Update: I've gone dark grey like I told you'll earlier.  He behaves himself,  he is also mostly to himself.  Both of us extremely busy with work.
I'm studying and completing certifications to help my career. Even though I have a tough boss she is happy with my work. Spend Lots of energy at work. I actually enjoy work. Have lots of fun.
( completely God's grace).
I watch q movie or some program before hitting the bed.
Am I over it? No. There qre tears some days  sandness comes and goes, I manage.  I am doing better than I thought. Except for the loss of this part of my life I'm ok.

[Lostinthewoods]

Hi Everyone,
OK Journaling,  it has been week since we.had the talk and arguments.
I've gone completely dark. He asks questions ( very rarely) I just respond. I do not volunteer any conversation.
He is still here even though he is sure our relationship is over and that it will not work between us.
In the last conversation I had I was clear about what I wanted. I'm not compromising.
MLC has taught me not to run behind him. I've always been the pursuer.  Not anymore.
Iin the first 2 years after MLC I wanted him somehow. Now not so  much . I can live without him. In fact given the way he is behaving it would be better he was not here. I would.like.to think of it as some progress.
I wonder why he is here even though it is all over in his eyes? He is extremely sure because he cannot be transparent with me.
He told my son whenever he was transparent it came back to bite him.
I asked him to give me one valid example or scenario and he had none
He also said he had exited the marriage long back
Why is he here and irritating me?

[KayDee]

Wow, seems like you have turned a really important corner Lost. And in answer to  the 'why is he still here' question, I evoke my favourite MLC answer of 'who knows'? Keep the faith in you. You will see, more and more, you are the one holding all the good cards.

[Songanddance]

Hi Everyone,
OK Journaling,  it has been week since we.had the talk and arguments.
I've gone completely dark. He asks questions ( very rarely) I just respond. I do not volunteer any conversation.
He is still here even though he is sure our relationship is over and that it will not work between us.
In the last conversation I had I was clear about what I wanted. I'm not compromising.
MLC has taught me not to run behind him. I've always been the pursuer.  Not anymore.
Iin the first 2 years after MLC I wanted him somehow. Now not so  much . I can live without him. In fact given the way he is behaving it would be better he was not here. I would.like.to think of it as some progress.
I wonder why he is here even though it is all over in his eyes? He is extremely sure because he cannot be transparent with me.
He told my son whenever he was transparent it came back to bite him.
I asked him to give me one valid example or scenario and he had none
He also said he had exited the marriage long back
Why is he here and irritating me?

Oh this is all so familiar.....
Clinging Boomerang - stay at homer. He is in crisis and you are his anchor.  Yada yada.......
You're doing a great job in your own progress.
Unfortunately there is the acceptance that this behaviour and being still around is "normal" for a clinger.

Live your life and at some point you will know what to do.

It took me a long time to decide; your timeline is your own to choose and navigate.