[Jackolar12]

RCR Here

This was split from here: Shocks sis recovered MLCer 10
I have split at this post because it seemed where the new topic may have started.

Some valid posts for the original thread are still in here and we will have to return those to the original as we find them--I can do some of that, but will likely get called away before I can do too much.
This new discussion may have multiple tangents--it's not only about the title I have it.


What boggles me is that a lot of MLCers decide not to implode their lives and work through these turbulent times. What’s the difference between a work it out or a person that implodes their marriage?

[megogirl]

Jack, what MLCers do you speak of?

Because I would make the argument that anyone who chose to “work it out” was never in MLC in the first place - they simply screwed up.

[MyBrainIsBroken]

I'm with Mego. I'd like to hear more about these MLCers who work it out.

[nah]

Wallowers.

[Jackolar12]

Mego Jim Conway for one and his wife, they worked it through is it character or religious beliefs that save them from imploding ? I have several friends who have gone through it and are still together I don’t know their belief systems. Asia and other countries that value old age seem to fare better than Westernised countries though. And dare I say it Larry Billota and wife if this is to be believed. Yes perhaps Wallowers have it milder and it would be nice to have input from some of them. Are stay at home Mlcers all Wallowers and what stops them abandoning, its hard to understand this phenomenon no wonder science and the medical community turn their backs, it’s such a mess.

[Milly]

I immagine it might be a combination of factors that cause some MLCers to get through this stage in life without blowing up the family.

From the couple of cases I know in RL, I would say that the original triggers were the same: parent/peer dying/oldest kid going away to school, the anger/grumpy/always complaining man/woman is the same, but possibly there needs to be a second major trigger to push them into a full blown crisis as opposed to a transition. The appearance of an OW could do this, for example. Or maybe even extreme financial difficulties: house going into foreclosure, business failing, gambling, huge debt. Like a pressure overbuild.

I would also say how the LBS is behaving at home at that point might also be a contributing factor. Many on here are completely shocked on the day they are bombdropped, with their Hs having just told them they loved them that morning, but others, like me, had been going through this nightmare for a few years already without knowing what it was. Our Hs had distanced themselves, were extremely difficult to live with, did not pull their weight and if you were like me, you were complaining to them a lot. This might also have been a contributing factor. Before you all start getting heated up, I'm not saying it's a fault of the LBS, just that she unknowingly added to that pressure.

I know from friends and family whose kids have had drug problems in the past, that it takes a combination of 'perfect' situations to lead a kid into addiction. Take away one of those major contributory situations and the addiction can't take off. Almost like the triangle of fire if you know about that: fuel, oxygen, spark. Without any of these 3, a fire can't happen. I think it's similar with MLC as opposed to MLT.

[Jackolar12]

Milly, my Mlcer had everything going for her and she still blew up, it was bizzare the things she said and did it would have made a good television sitcom if it wasn't so painful. Perhaps success might be a factor in some cases of MLC. There's just so many variables to try to consider to get your head around the situation.

[Acorn]

What boggles me is that a lot of MLCers decide not to implode their lives and work through these turbulent times. What’s the difference between a work it out or a person that implodes their marriage?

Jackolar, if I may, please.

Though my H was/is a live-in MLCer, he imploded our marriage and family. 
I think some do it with a nuclear head, others with a thousand grenades.  The result is the same.  Nothing left of M or family. 

The most important factor in our situation that facilitated healing in M and F is the fact that he never left, though he was thoroughly tempted. That was the line he would not cross.  I saw and heard him struggle with the urge to the point of torment.  By God’s grace, he did not cross that self-imposed line. 

Just my 2 cents’, based on a sample of one. 

[rosetintedglasses]

I see what you are asking Jackolar.

When I read your comment Acorn I immediately thought of my situation and how I should have somehow kept my H in the house, looking back after 2 years should I have tried harder. He did stay for one year after BD and like your H he seemed to really really try to fight the urge to abandon. He was in constant contact with OW1 though and I couldn’t have lived with that. If I remember correctly  your H stopped his A when you found out Acorn? Sorry if I got that wrong.

Jack I think you are asking, as an example, why did my H move out then move on to OW2 and Acorn’s H stop his A, stay at home and not get an OW2? If the LBS has no impact on the MLC (and in this example I believe I am a similar type of LBS to Acorn, we both treated them with decency and boundaries and we also have a 3rd floor suite where he could have retreated to) it must be down to the MLCer, circumstance and luck.

Another example is Barbie, her H had a much worse childhood than my H but her H came home and my H has not.

What i’m Probably saying is it doesn’t make sense but then, we knew that didn’t we! Sorry Jack, not much help!

Rose 🌹

[MyBrainIsBroken]

The popular belief on the forum seems to be that the OP doesn't matter but I don't believe that. Some OPs are simply broken people but others are extremely manipulative predators. MLCers are broken and easily influenced by a manipulative OP.

I also believe the MLCers fight/flight stress response influences the path of the MLC. I think the wallower's natural stress response is to freeze rather than fight or flee.

My natural stress response is to freeze. When I'm stressed I tend to just shut down. I believe that and the fact that I didn't stumble across an ow explain why I was a wallower.

Just my opinions.

[Thunder]

MB I don't think the alienator doesn't matter, they do, they complicate things more, but I just think the alienator could have been anyone willing to date, or have an affair with a married person.  There's nothing special about them.

Yes they are broken people and broken attracts broken.  Any kind of broken.

[Not Applicable]

I have always believed staying home is important. In fact, from the beginning I told my H if he left it would be over. At one point a little over a year ago, he asked me what would have happened if he had left. I told him we would have already been divorced, and THAT would have come from MY end.

It's not even because it is MLC. Living apart breaks the connection between spouses. You don't have a marriage if you are apart but even if they are a pain in the ass, if they are home, at least there is some connection that is maintained, as well as an opportunity to restore things at any time.

[Watcher]

I agree NYM. At least while I was living at home there was some type of connection. My personal opinion there is no way back from our divorce. The connection is broken the longer we are apart. TBH it's been broken as we have lived years in NC.

In our case my filing just reaffirms in her mind that she was justified in walking away 4.5 years ago. I abandoned her now like she always knew I would.

[Finding Joy]

Reconnection seems much more likely for the ones that do not leave.  In my case I’m glad mine left because I was scared and it was escalating.  Also, my kids were being exposed to too much Monster.

That said, staying gives a much better chance for the marriage to work.  For those of us with young kids that kind of forces a certain level of cooperation that in some ways could facilitate reconnection.  You have to learn to work together and in my case it has become friendly between us...to an extent.

[Slow Fade]

For what its worth, mine left and then came back. He was out of the house for a good 2 - 3 years. I don't know what the predictive answers are. 

[One day at a time]

I'm also from the club that there's a lot more chance to reconnect when the MLCer stays home. Having said that, I don't know if I would have been able to handle years of bad behaviour, the 7 months he lived with me really affected me mentally and emotionally and now I'm truly starting to see how deep those wounds are.. So maybe he actually did me a favour by running away.

I also agree that once they leave, the connection eventually dies.. I don't know if my H will ever look back at this stage but from my side, the bond is gone. He destroyed it by leaving and I can't see getting it back even if he wants to return.

[megogirl]

One day

I agree with your statement- MLC does kill the bond.  I believe that’s the main reason why so few marriages survive this.

But for me, I’m willing to rebuild that bond.  But I’m not even Standing for “us.”  I’m Standing for S16 and (hopefully) for our future grandchildren.  Because for as rampant as divorce has become, i don’t want S16 to come from a broken home.

I am adamant about that.

[Watcher]

Well yes that is the other side of the coin Finding Joy, One Day At A Time. Monster. Some of them make it impossible to live with and the kids see way too much. So it's best that someone does leave in that situation. That's usually me. However, it is a lot better for me emotionally, mentally, and physically being separated.

[Disillusioned]

Reconnection seems much more likely for the ones that do not leave.  In my case I’m glad mine left because I was scared and it was escalating.  Also, my kids were being exposed to too much Monster.

That said, staying gives a much better chance for the marriage to work.  For those of us with young kids that kind of forces a certain level of cooperation that in some ways could facilitate reconnection.  You have to learn to work together and in my case it has become friendly between us...to an extent.

My sense is this is true as well.  My W kept saying she could live like we were living indefinitely, because she had been "doing it for a long time."  Well, that was news to me.  However, as the crazy escalated, she moved out of the bedroom, took off her ring and declared she "was an adult and could date if she wanted to and that I needed to go firetruck her out of my system" and my D7 was sequestered with her at the other end of the house, I decided that it wasn't a tenable arrangement.  Against my better judgment, and the advice of several good people on HS, I moved out.

I know she wasn't ready for it.  As I was walking out of the door, she said  "I didn't know you were leaving."  (She had been mocking my rushed evenings after work reviewing properties and putting in credit apps for 3 months.  I guess she didn't believe me?)  She also said "You know I needed to get over that relationship, and that I've been menopausal for years.  I've got more testosterone in me than you do."     She made sure that I saw she had scheduled an emergency therapy session on our shared calendar the next day, when she had stopped posting those for me to see months ago.

It's sad, really.  We're nearing two years physically separated, and she is adamant we're done.  She filed for divorce in May, but true to MLC form, didn't tell me and hasn't done another thing to move it forward.  Says she felt "attacked and ambushed" when I went and got an attorney after finding out she filed.     I'm starting to feel that had I stayed, my chances to save the marriage might be much improved.

Many things have happened the past two years, and there's been a lot of misunderstandings and assumptions that have further eroded our relationship.  For those of you with a spiritual background, I firmly believe that there are forces that conspire to destroy marriage.  I've never put much stock in that before, but as I look back at the "coincidences" that have happened since I moved out that have lead to further mistrust and resentment, I can't help believe there is some agent at work. 

Her anger from some of these misunderstandings was palpable, but I had no idea at the time where it was coming from (other than MLC) She monstered any time we spoke for a year after we moved out, and didn't allow me to see her dying mother.  I knew her for 18 years.  I wasn't invited to the funeral. 

Anyway, sorry for going off track.  In summation:  I think if both stay in the house, there's a better chance to make it through.

[KeepItTogether]

 In summation:  I think if both stay in the house, there's a better chance to make it through.

I agree. Also b/c the LBS is more invested in this sense as well. Everyone is at home so truly, living a single life is not possible. I've noticed 2 distinct types of LBS that are physically separated from their respective spouses.  One type is the one that truly forges  ahead and can grow in a way they probably couldn't have if the MLCer were living at home. I've always said it takes a mighty strong LBS to deal with a live-in MLCer and be able to detach. I am not so sure I would be able to. And I can also see that as time goes by I personally am less invested with MLCer. Less affected by him. And even though I still love him, I think that if I met someone right now, I may even be able to forget about him altogether.

[Treasur]

This may be true, idk. Maybe other reconnectors will come back and say...but I think SF, Barbie and Never all had spouses who left?

What worries me about it as a shared 'principle' is that it encourages new LBS to take on too much damage bc they believe that if the spouse leaves the home, that's it. Sometimes imho the cost of trying to keep them physically in the home is too high. Jmo.

[One day at a time]

Sometimes imho the cost of trying to keep them physically in the home is too high. Jmo.

I agree with you Treasur. I bet myself over and over again for actually being the one who asked him to move out and feeling I decreased the chances of a return to the marriage. But the honest truth is that I couldn't take it anymore and the damage that those 7 months caused to me personally right now feel like a very high price to pay.. Sometimes I feel I took on too much abuse for the sake of the marriage. Emotionally and mentally it would have been a lot better for me if he left a lot sooner. But I can only see that now in hindsight and when I have no hope of reconciliation.

[3Boys4Me]

I know several MLCers who moved out and divorced, and remarried who are back with their original spouses. My dad was a Vanisher and he and my mom reconciled.

I have a friend who just reconciled after 4 years MLC. I have an MLC girlfriend who left her spouse six years ago, she has had a series of OM and the only thing she really wants is her H back (he’s a no.)
I have another MLC girlfriend who left her H six years ago and she told me the other day (she is in a serious relationship) that she wished her H “could have only held on a little longer) - by 2.5 years he began dating and moving on...

So, while it may be true that the odds are better if a spouse remains home, in all the MLC cases I personally know of except one, the MLCer has wanted to return home, though many of their spouses had moved on. I also know a couple of walk away spouses and there has been zero interest in getting back together with their partners, but their behavior and attitudes were clearly different from the MLC examples I give above.

I know I am likely in the minority, but I still believe that if an MLCer navigates their crisis, allows themselves to hit rock bottom and then is willing to do their personal work, they will regret leaving and blowing up their marriages - regardless of whether they want to reconcile.

[marvin4242]

I'll just chime in and say in my opinion whether they stay or go does not matter. This is based on the following:

1) In the throws of MLC they are functional narcissists. They really have no emotional empathy or connection to others. So being "physically" in the same space really doesn't mean much. All the cues we use to bond and stay connected are not from proximity but from emotional engagement. I don't think most have any.

2) At least with my wife whenever she "pops" back up and communicates it is almost as if she is not gone in her head. She "continues" conversations that never existed, or shares details that would make sense for people who are in daily contact but would make no sense otherwise. So in her emotional world "separation," "together" and connectedness doesn't work the way it used to (or would in most people).

3) Even if there is something about being in the same "space" it has to be countered from the "death by a thousand cuts." I think I did a very good job detaching from my wife quickly, but in looking back when we spent time together little actions and words still did damage. And this can keep adding up. So even if staying in the same space may help the MLC stay anchored a tiny bit is it worth the damage to the LBS and the risk that the damage becomes so great that recovery is not possible? It seems if the MLCer ever starts coming out of the fog the big challenge for those hoping to reconnect is for the LBS to have some love left for their spouse. MLCers may not realize time has passed, but the LBS does know that.

4) Maybe having them around allows us to continue our denial, that somehow they are still "there." I for one prefer firmly existing in the reality of the situation, even if it may be harder in the short term.

And this is before you account for the monstering, vitriol and potential physical dangers. Maybe having them not move out gives us the illusion of control. But then again maybe physical separation is more appropriate and correct to the emotional separation, it is more attuned to the reality we experience.

[3Boys4Me]

Marvin - yes, everything you said! I had to laugh at your #2... a few weeks back my MLCer was monstering at me over an incident with the kids - he said something to the effect, “during this entire separation...” after reclaiming my composure I wanted to say - you remember you divorced me last year right? We’re divorced.”... this while he’s living with the OW. So the fog is real and deep, and your comment about time is spot on too - he has told me directly that time seems very different than it used to...

[MyBrainIsBroken]

Marvin said pretty much everything I would have said and said it so much better than I would have, Thanks Marvin!

[Nerissa]

I nodded all the way through Marvin’s post too. i think that my efforts to keep H home really affected my mental health.  We’d have done less damage apart.  It certainly kept me in denial.  And pats face it, if they are behaving like narcissists (and mine was) what does it say about our own stability and health that we stick with it?  That’s a question rather than a judgement, since we cope differently, but I was quite ill in hindsight so had he stayed, he would have stayed with an unstable wife while being unstable himself.  So not a recipe for success really.

[Disillusioned]

I really appreciated reading all these viewpoints, especially Marvin's reasoning.  It took awhile for me to stop blaming myself for this crisis, but one thing I couldn't quite let go of was the fact that I moved out.  I kept (keep) thinking "If only I'd been stronger, I could have stayed in the house..."   That's why I come here!   

[One day at a time]

But maybe we are just looking at the MLCer's point of view.. Maybe it makes no difference for my H if he had stayed or not.. But it has made a difference to me.. Maybe it's because I have a very practical mind most of the time.. And what I see is my H treated me very badly for 7 months, then he abandoned me and blamed me for everything. He's currently a stranger who lives in another country and is engaged to OW.. This wouldn't be the situation if he had stayed home but he didn't.. All the actions since he left drove me to a place of acceptance and a wish to move on.. So reconciliation is no longer an option... If we were still living together (hard as it would be), I will feel there's a way back.. But with the current situation, I don't.. But that's just me!

[Thunder]

I agree with Marvin, too.

In my opinion, the"bond/connection" is broken the minute they BD us.  The marriage, as it was, is gone.
Doesn't matter whether their home or not.  You can't have a connection to someone who has totally shut down their feelings for you.

The MAYBE benefits I see with a stay at home MLCer are...

Most are usually Wallowers.  Not many Wallowers find an OP.
They don't have the energy, even though their just as gone as the person who leaves.  An OP just makes things more complicated.
So that may be a plus to reconnecting, but not always.  No 3rd party interference.

The other benefit is, the MLCer can witness first hand the great mirror work the LBS is doing, IF they are.  If they do the mirror work, GAL, detach and just go about their business and leave the MLCer alone..they notice.
They can see their LBS is making a good life for themselves, they appear strong, happy and independent.. and may wonder why their life looks happy and busy, when theirs is depressed and miserable.
I think that can be very attractive to a MLCer, because they don't feel strong and happy.
They do watch you.

A good example of that is Acorn.(hope you don't mind me using you are an example Acorn)
She did exactly that.  She left him alone, learned to do for herself, zipped her lip, got on with her life and dropped the rope, all the while treating him politely and respectfully.

It doesn't mean it will always produce a reconnection, but it sure can't hurt and in my opinion it can really help.
Just live 'as if" their never coming out of it, start building a life without them.  Some of them don't want to be left behind.

[Disillusioned]

I know several MLCers who moved out and divorced, and remarried who are back with their original spouses. My dad was a Vanisher and he and my mom reconciled.

I have a friend who just reconciled after 4 years MLC. I have an MLC girlfriend who left her spouse six years ago, she has had a series of OM and the only thing she really wants is her H back (he’s a no.)
I have another MLC girlfriend who left her H six years ago and she told me the other day (she is in a serious relationship) that she wished her H “could have only held on a little longer) - by 2.5 years he began dating and moving on...

So, while it may be true that the odds are better if a spouse remains home, in all the MLC cases I personally know of except one, the MLCer has wanted to return home, though many of their spouses had moved on. I also know a couple of walk away spouses and there has been zero interest in getting back together with their partners, but their behavior and attitudes were clearly different from the MLC examples I give above.

I know I am likely in the minority, but I still believe that if an MLCer navigates their crisis, allows themselves to hit rock bottom and then is willing to do their personal work, they will regret leaving and blowing up their marriages - regardless of whether they want to reconcile.

That's a lot of MLC!!!   

[Not Applicable]

But maybe we are just looking at the MLCer's point of view.. Maybe it makes no difference for my H if he had stayed or not.. But it has made a difference to me.. Maybe it's because I have a very practical mind most of the time.. And what I see is my H treated me very badly for 7 months, then he abandoned me and blamed me for everything. He's currently a stranger who lives in another country and is engaged to OW.. This wouldn't be the situation if he had stayed home but he didn't.. All the actions since he left drove me to a place of acceptance and a wish to move on.. So reconciliation is no longer an option... If we were still living together (hard as it would be), I will feel there's a way back.. But with the current situation, I don't.. But that's just me!

Exactly. And I think most people would think the way you do. He left. That normally is a sign that someone doesn't want to continue with you, that the marriage is over, so why would you want him back?

If this site did not push the agenda of standing during an MLC, if it didn't tell people that their spouse might come back after leaving, after divorcing, whatever, would people actually be sitting here and saying that leaving is better than staying? I doubt it. Because it is just not logical or intuitive to think that way. Leaving DOES mean something, divorce DOES mean something, MLC or not. I think it is denial to use MLC as an excuse to discount the significance of these actions on the part of the person who chooses to leave. Look at how many people are telling SS she is giving them hope. The reason people believe that they might get their spouse back and even want them back is because they are being told it can happen. It's a form of cultlike brainwashing in my opinion.

Yes, an MLCer can monster and be emotionally detached, but a spouse at home, even if he is just paying the bills and the like, is being responsible and spouselike at some level. An MLCer who leaves or divorces you is engaging in complete abandonment and I really don't see how someone like that is reconciliation or remarriage material, to be perfectly honest.

Look, it's easy to fall for the stuff that people tell you on this site in the beginning but after a few years into your spouse's MLC, a person should have developed their own perspective and thoughts on the situation, especially their OWN situation. I worry if someone is NOT questioning what they are taught at that point. Then they aren't facing reality.

[Not Applicable]

The most important factor in our situation that facilitated healing in M and F is the fact that he never left,

Thunder, I think you need to re-read this line in Acorn's thread.

I also would remind everyone Acorn was not in this forum during her H's worst monstering. He probably was just as bad as any other monster we just were not privy to it. I am sure he did as much damage as any other and I bet she reacted to his monstering before learning to zip her lips. I think her appearance in this forum at a late date in the process gives people a rather warped view of her experience and even her own actions. By time she arrived here, she probably had learned from making mistakes that you are glossing over. And I say this because I am pretty sure she will agree with me. 

[3Boys4Me]

If that “criteria” is the case NYM, than only stay at home MLCers are worthy of reconciliation or remarriage - in my experience that just simply isn’t the case.  If an MLCer does the work, wants to reconcile and the former spouse is willing and able to join them in that effort, than good for them; their success story and recommitment should be honored and celebrated IMO. I’m in awe of the strength my mom displayed in rebuilding a relationship and marriage with my dad, the 30 years they had together after so many years apart brought tremendous joy to them, my siblings and me, and their many grand children and now great grandchildren. My dad didn’t just leave, he was a Vanisher and he abandoned us financially, but my mom helped him find his way back home and forgave him completely.

[Treasur]

And imho that's why it matters so much to respect that LBS make different choices as they progress and that MLC spouses are not always a one size fits all as things progress either. As long as any LBS is taking care of their own sanity and wellbeing appropriately, it's really not my place to judge their choices. Stander or not, divorced or not, physically present spouse or not.

[Not Applicable]

3 Boys- I don't see any point in debating this or getting offended because someone sees this differently than you do, because this is absolutely a personal decision each person has to make. If my H had moved out 3.5 years ago, I would have gotten a divorce and remarried long ago. If he wanted a future with me, I made it very clear he couldn't cross that red line and he respected that. A long distance marriage even for say, work reasons, would not be acceptable to me at all. There are things that for me are essential for my marriage and that is my right to have those things. Every person has to decide what they consider to be disrespect and abandonment. Allowing others to brainwash you into doing something that is not good for you is not good for your mental health. (Edit-I wrote the above before I saw Treasur's post but I agree with what she says)

You can throw out all the catch phrases about the marriage ending at BD, blah blah blah. Or that divorce is just a piece of paper. MLC forums like this come with a lot of catch phrases and advice that gets repeated over and over. But let's just look at it in a really simple way, living with a stay at home MLCer is just going through a difficult time in our marriages. A difficult time, that if they never leave, eventually is likely to get better. If they do leave, well then they have left and the marriage is over. Anything beyond that really is just making it more complex than it needs to be.

[3Boys4Me]

In your opinion NYM, in your opinion. So often when I read your posts, I am aware that you state things from a single perspective as if they are fact, often when other people’s direct experiences contradict your statements. I am suggesting that you are an example of one, and your repeated efforts to suggest that anyone else who sees things differently must be wrong. Your experience isn’t wrong, it just is. As is everyone else’s. Moreover this forum specifically began to support standers, it has grown and blossomed since then, but your very narrow view suggests it should be for standers who’s MLCers live at home, RCR herself would then, by that measure, not qualify.

My memory could be in error, but weren’t you just strongly advocating for debate on another thread?  Why so defensive?

[Seahorse]

Though my H was/is a live-in MLCer, he imploded our marriage and family. 
I think some do it with a nuclear head, others with a thousand grenades.  The result is the same.  Nothing left of M or family. 

The most important factor in our situation that facilitated healing in M and F is the fact that he never left, though he was thoroughly tempted. That was the line he would not cross.  I saw and heard him struggle with the urge to the point of torment.  By God’s grace, he did not cross that self-imposed line. 

Just my 2 cents’, based on a sample of one. 

Acorn - then does that mean my chance of healing M and F is less because mine DID leave, and divorced me?  No anger, just a question.

Sea

[Thunder]

"I think her (Acorn) appearance in this forum at a late date in the process gives people a rather warped view of her experience and even her own actions."

Acorn what say you?  Do you think you are giving people a "warped" view of your experience?
I certainly don't want to speak for you.

[Sam I Am]

I personally believe if there is any chance of reconciliation it all starts with the LBS.  What do we do during this time.  I am not there this is just my thoughts based on what I have read.

The LBS who gets his/her crap together has a better chance no matter the type of MLCer….even the vanisher.

By getting their crap together, I mean:

They start by taking care of themselves, their family, the house, the animals....whatever was left in their hands.
They learn, learn, learn.
They don't nag, cry, scream or be mean, vindictive, sarcastic.
They learn to let the anger go.
They learn how to forgive others actions.
They learn how to protect themselves.
They learn how to stand up for themselves and for what is right and fair no matter what has been done to them.  They do it without anger or personal vendetta.

They grow.
They take the best of themselves and make it better.
They find the bad parts that are fixable and improve on them.
They learn patience.
They learn to not need to have control in every situation.
They learn to appreciate blessings of all sizes and shapes.

They become confident.

Basically...they become the best person they can be and they do it for themselves.   I could go on and on....but in all the different sites and forums out there (that I have been exposed to)...they all have the same basic message.

1.  Mirror work/Be the best person you can be/focus on yourself, etc.
2.  Don't focus on MLCer.  Do something with your life.  GAL, etc
3.  Let the MLCer start convos….especially relationship convos.
4.  Learn to treat the MLCer with grace.
5.  Let time run it's course.  Won't happen in a few hours, days or weeks.  Get ready for a long haul.
6.  The only thing you can control in life is yourself and how you act, react, etc.

If you do the opposite of these things, you are just digging a bigger hole and chasing the spouse away.  Don't dig that hole deeper and take away chances.
It is all your choice to try to not.  To stand or not.  It is up to each one of us to decided what we are going to do in any given second of our lives.

[Helpingme!]

Sea
IMO the answer is no. You have just as much of a chance . I'll let Acorn answer your question.
Just for me reading ,  In my little simple guys opinion , just because they leave or even D!! That doesn't mean they will not come back. Total BS!!
My W never left but somedays I wished she would have, alot of days. It's hard to watch for years and live with someone every single day that is lost in some fantasy land. Bit some do.
As for ones on here that I know of that have reconciled or working at it. It would be about the same. Ones that left and ones that stayed.
I think it would be alot more for ones that had their spouse leave, but they moved on and I don't blame them one bit for moving on.
My point is you all have the same chance IMO. A leaver or not. No-one should say , oh you might as well move on, he left. You don't have a chance. That's crap.

[MyBrainIsBroken]

Look, it's easy to fall for the stuff that people tell you on this site in the beginning but after a few years into your spouse's MLC, a person should have developed their own perspective and thoughts on the situation, especially their OWN situation. I worry if someone is NOT questioning what they are taught at that point. Then they aren't facing reality.

This site didn't teach me to stand. I came to this site because it aligned with my already existing beliefs about standing. Five years later, I haven't developed my perspectives and thoughts, I've refined them, and I continue to believe in the value of standing.

If I were to follow NYM's argument to its alternate conclusion, if I would have landed on the Chump Lady site instead of this site, I would probably be following what I was taught on that site, meaning I would probably be remarried by now, possibly several times.

I realize that I am just a sample size of one, but I believe that all LBSes, even new ones, have a brain and are capable of thinking for themselves. I don't believe LBSes stand because that's what they're taught on this site. I believe they come to this site because standing aligns with their personal values and beliefs.

But let's just look at it in a really simple way, living with a stay at home MLCer is just going through a difficult time in our marriages. A difficult time, that if they never leave, eventually is likely to get better. If they do leave, well then they have left and the marriage is over. Anything beyond that really is just making it more complex than it needs to be.

This perfectly illustrates a fundamental difference between me and NYM. NYM believes she has a troubled marriage. I believe that I have a spouse who is going through a crisis. Whether there is an alienator or not doesn't change the fact that my wife is in crisis. Whether she moves out or not doesn't change the fact that she is in crisis. Whether she divorces me or not doesn't change the fact that she is in crisis.

Drawing a line in the sand is fine but what if doing so restricts the MLCer's ability to work through their crisis? It's possible that the LBS who manages to keep the MLCer from leaving may end up in a "bad marriage" with a spouse who is in crisis for the rest of their life. If you consider the MLC to be a growth experience, leaving home may be a vital part of that growth experience.

I'm not sure about this last part but I'm going to post it anyway. It may not apply to all MLCers but it seems to apply to the majority. It's quite common for LBSes to question whether their spouse is actually going through an MLC. I think most of us have done it. One thing that might cause me to question whether someone was going through an MLC is if the supposed MLCer were willing to change to accommodate the LBS's demands. Most MLCers don't care whether the LBS wants them to stay or leave, they do whatever they want to do. I would wonder about an MLCer who stayed home because they were told to stay "or else".

I think SamIAm summed things up pretty well. I'm also starting to wonder what this discussion has to do with Sis's thread. Maybe somebody should report a hijacking.

[Acorn]

A little bird PMed me about this thread.
I am hoping to address anything that is pertinent to me in my thread later. 
Just a quick post before I run some more errands. 
Thank you for your patience.

[Father5]

   I do tend to agree with you NYM. I drew my line in the sand and said if the divorce finalizes then thats it. She has filed and we willsee where it goes from here. I will not stand forever but I do have some very real problems that I need to work through before I even begin to worry about finding someone else. So I guess she has until I figure my own mess out ! Life is short I can't wait around on a maybe ? Though I love her dearly and hope the best for her.  I haven't seen one step in the right direction at all. She honestly would prefer we be friends so she doesn't have anymore guilt.

[marvin4242]

If my H had moved out 3.5 years ago, I would have gotten a divorce and remarried long ago. If he wanted a future with me, I made it very clear he couldn't cross that red line and he respected that. A long distance marriage even for say, work reasons, would not be acceptable to me at all. There are things that for me are essential for my marriage and that is my right to have those things. Every person has to decide what they consider to be disrespect and abandonment. Allowing others to brainwash you into doing something that is not good for you is not good for your mental health. (Edit-I wrote the above before I saw Treasur's post but I agree with what she says)

You can throw out all the catch phrases about the marriage ending at BD, blah blah blah. Or that divorce is just a piece of paper. MLC forums like this come with a lot of catch phrases and advice that gets repeated over and over.

NYM: with all due respect, and I quote, if "Every person has to decide what they consider to be disrespect and abandonment" is truly what you believe then why do you so forcefully discount that others may not have the same viewpoint as you? That not everyone is simply "coming up with a lot of catch phrases and advice that gets repeated over and over," but actually sharing their own views, experiences and knowledge?

For you it means if you husband leaves you are done. For someone else it is "get the heck out" and leave me alone and we shall see later where we are.

But let's just look at it in a really simple way, living with a stay at home MLCer is just going through a difficult time in our marriages. A difficult time, that if they never leave, eventually is likely to get better. If they do leave, well then they have left and the marriage is over. Anything beyond that really is just making it more complex than it needs to be.

Well I know this to be true: MLC is MANY MANY things, but simple or normal it is not. It is one of the most complex and difficult psychological events I have seen in others short of full on personality disorders. I think one of the reasons MLC is destructive to LBSes (and to MLC sufferer) is exactly because it is SO complex it takes a lot of time and effort to untangle all the bits and pieces, it is not something in our normal day to day and "simple" experience. If something is harder than the death of a loved one it tells you it is not simple.

[Milly]

I'm in agreement with what Sam and Brain said. HS reflected my views and I was aware that I had issues of my own and wanted to become the best I could possibly be.

My view might be biased by the fact that my H did leave the house, but I don't think that it's over when a MLCer leaves. Fleeing is often a huge part of their crisis. Some people might say that a spouse having an affair would be the end for them and they'd have divorced their spouse and moved on right away. But for most of us on here, even though we never would have thought so, an affair has not lead us to say we will never take our Hs back. So, maybe it's hard to know how we would behave until we are faced with the situation.

I came to HS because it was a site for standers. I could finally be open about my standing. The non standers on the site were sympathetic and encouraging. In RL I can't tell anyone about my stand because they'll tell me I'm in denial, H has moved on and that I'm stuck.  I do believe that if we stop standing one day, it has to come from each person in their own time without judgement.

[Stand Tall]

Not knowing anything about mlc's I didn't realize my first BD was just that a BD. The ILYBINILWY speech. Nothing changed that I noticed, but I didn't know what to look for. H didn't move out or abandon me. Then 3 years later I received that same speech and H left to live with ow.

  I heard from a number of friends who went through the same thing. One had a stay at home and it was hell and the others had spouses that left. They all came home and are happily married today.

  My H has recently told me that he wants to come home at some point. Nothing has happened with this yet. Maybe he was anchor checking, but why would he be checkin. If he left because the marriage was truly over then why would he care?
 
  Last I want to say, RCR, HB both had H that left and came back home. And the one we shouldn't forget Is Shocks sis. She left and in the end wanted to come back home, but it was her H decision to not stand.

  I don't think it's a cut and dry situation. There are plenty of stories out there that show reconciliation both ways. JMO

[megogirl]

Everything ST just said

I came to HS because I was intrigued by RCR and found her to be the best writer I’d ever read.  She was also a success story.  I was so shellshocked by BD, it was actually a huge relief to learn that my story mimicked countless others.

I think it’s pointless to try and put returners vs. non-returners into a box and dissect what caused them to (or not to.).

[Finding Joy]

My personal view point is that the more degrees of separation put between the LBS and spouse the less likely a reconciliation.  For obvious reasons.  The lbs is way more likely to move on if the MLCer moves out for years, divorces them, moves in with OW, marries ow, etc.

For many of us having a live in was not a good idea for our own emotional well being(also possible physical violence, kids etc).  That said, had my husband just stayed home, there would be no question of my stand.  When he left, he abandoned myself and the kids.  He speaks of divorce, if that happens it is unlikely I will wait more than a year or two afterwards.

The point is, the more they do, the less likely a reconciliation is.  Both because somewhere in their crazy they did in fact make a conscience decision to leave, divorce etc and the ones that stayed and didn’t move out or divorce somewhere deep down chose the marriage.

That’s not to say it doesn’t work out often when they leave, it just seems more common that it works out more often when they stay.  For obvious reasons, they did not physically abandon or divorce the spouse. 

If they stay the LBS has more hope.  If they leave and are with an OP, over time the LBS wonders why they are waiting on someone who did not chose them in anyway.  I’m hopeful my MLCer will come home, but there is a whole lot of scorched earth left in the wake.

[RedStar]

There are plenty of stories out there that show reconciliation both ways.

Yes. Anyone who insists otherwise can't have read that many threads here, and there are a lot of them from over the years.

And anyone who insists that what we're dealing with is a marriage problem simply does not understand MLC. And understanding MLC is the reason for this site -- not to convince anyone to stand. It is here because what LOOKS like "just a marriage problem" is not.

[Jackolar12]

Hi Acorn, I wonder what made him stay, perhaps your good at cooking😀 was he very attached to your home and considers it his liar or womb to keep him safe while he’s navigating his issues.

That’s what’s great about Shock Sis as we get to hear from the other side of MLC. It’s a phenomenon that few people outside of these cyber walls understand. I wish more former MLCers would drop by to chat to us all and increase our knowledge.
Jack

[Anon]

https://www.emotionalaffair.org/empower-sarah-interview/

This is a very interesting interview.  Follow the link then scroll down a bit to find the audio link.   It doesn't talk about MLC but it talks about affairs and wow, there are so many similarities to MLC.   The interviewer had an affair but has since reconciled and the interviewee is a betrayed spouse/therapist.   

They cover a lot,,, affair addiction, shame, not about the marriage, fog, and lots else.   Very interesting.   Shock Sis,,, do you have any comment about this?  I'm curious how closely you can relate to what is discussed here. 

[Jackolar12]

Yes your right RTG nothing makes sense and it is so damaging for all concerned. I wonder if anyone here has up to date information about the amount of MLC prevalent in this decade, it would be interesting to find out. My Mlcer was high energy and disappeared very quickly and hasn’t surfaced in the best part of 8 years and the event haunts me daily.

[Thunder]

My Brain,

I agree with you completely.

[OffRoad]

Does anyone else find it interesting that this debate about a stay at home MLCER being more likely to reconcile being on a thread where one who LEFT wants to reconcile, even though circumstances make that impossible?  Right out of the horses mouth (not that you are a horse, SS).

So there it is. Left, divorced, wants back. I often wonder if the difference is whether or not the MLCER wanted to be divorced. (Because SS said she didn't )  If we could all just let them eat cake until they got sick of it, might that work? Not for me, because that is MY line in the sand (everyone else's miles will vary), but I honestly wonder if that would work for some MLCers. (I'm more about setting them free and if they figure themselves out and we like each other at the end, see what happens then, kind of person. But I would not, could not be with someone I knew was cheating on me. That's just me)

[Not Applicable]

My memory could be in error, but weren’t you just strongly advocating for debate on another thread?  Why so defensive?

I was advocating for the RIGHT to debate. Not for debate itself. If I don't want to debate something, it's also my right NOT to engage in a debate.

[Not Applicable]

In RL I can't tell anyone about my stand because they'll tell me I'm in denial, H has moved on and that I'm stuck.

Yes, out there in the more general world beyond this forum, most people do think that. Which is precisely why I think in most cases where the MLCer does what your H did, there is no hope for reconciliation, because the vast majority of people would NOT stand or even think to do it.

You can't come up with statistical probabilities based on the members of this forum, because it is a self-selected group and this group encourages behavior among LBSes that is not considered normal in the wider society.

[Not Applicable]

And anyone who insists that what we're dealing with is a marriage problem simply does not understand MLC. And understanding MLC is the reason for this site -- not to convince anyone to stand. It is here because what LOOKS like "just a marriage problem" is not.

I am assuming this is directed at me but if it isn't, then never mind what I am about to say. I did not say we are dealing with marriage problems, I said we are dealing with a difficult time in our marriage. That doesn't imply that the marriage is a problem, simply that we as a couple are going through challenging times. I also am not in denial that MLC is different. I am simply saying that adjusting our attitude to see it as a difficult time makes it a little easier to relax and just get through the whole horrible thing. I see people desperately looking for signs of "reconnection" or "reconciliation." They are looking for "actions" not "words." They are looking for the OW to be completely gone. In other words, we are told there is this list of milestones our spouse must meet in order for us to reach some sort of goal. And if our spouses don't then people here are left feeling there is something missing. It's just too much pressure.

Someone who was both a recovered MLCer and an LBS recently said to me that they wished they had trusted the process less and trusted their intuition more. I think this is very wise.

The support and advice can be helpful at some level in the beginning. But the faster we can stand on our own feet and think for ourselves, the better off we are going to be in my opinion. And thinking for ourselves can mean questioning the support and advice we got in the beginning and whether it actually helped or hurt us and/or got us to a place where we are content to be today.

[Nerissa]

It stands to reason that if an mlc spouse remains in the home then no matter how superficially, he/she is making a statement of some kind about being  committed in some measure to the  marriage, even if in name only.  And to the outside world it is a troubled marriage and that’s not unusual.

I intuitively agree with Off-road - that if they have left but are not putting divorce proceedings into action there is ambivalence of some kind.  It may be due to cynical financial or other manipulative reasons or there is (more likely imo) some deeper more unconscious ambivalence.  What it is we can only intuit as they may not know themselves.  Insight into themselves isn’t usually prevalent as far as I can see. 

Actually I think they are all unconsciously ambivalent, divorce or no divorce,, otherwise they’d do this in a grown up way.

[marvin4242]

Well considering how many MLCers have destroyed their lives with the statement that they are trusting their intuition or their feelings, and how the “normal” intuition for most LBSers at the start, when they have no idea what is going on, is to try to talk to, explain to, bargain with, engage in deep conversation, and essentially all the things one would do with in a relationship with a rational/empathetic partner I’d say to go with your intuition alone can end pretty badly.

Nothing about MLC is intuitive or rational to a more coherent normal state of being and attachment. In fact for me the sooner I started to learn and understand and take the counter intuitive advice to “leave them alone” the better off I was.

[Not Applicable]

Again, the "normal" thing for members of this forum (who come here because it is for STANDERS) may be to beg and plead. I'm not sure if that is the intuitive thing. The intuitive thing may be to just dump the MLCer. I don't think we have a representative sample of LBSes to say one way or the other. Moreover, I think it is even more counterintuitive to stand expecting a return when your spouse has dumped you and moved on. And in that case, we are not talking about newbies.

And I don't think it is counterintuitive to leave someone alone who is having a problem that doesn't involve you and you are just going to get dragged into a mess if you stick your nose in it. That's just good common sense.

[MyBrainIsBroken]

I don't worry too much about statistics concerning how many MLCers return. Although there are similarities, every case is unique. It's possible that every MLCer in the world may try to return except for one. If the one that doesn't try to return happens to be my wife, knowing all of the others returned won't help. If no MLCers in the world try to return except for one, but that one is my wife, all of the other situations will be irrelevant.

Likewise, there are no proven and established guidelines. The fact that one MLCer who stayed home reconciled doesn't mean that others who stay home will also want to reconcile. And it also doesn't mean that MLCers who leave home won't want to reconcile.

If I had drawn a line in the sand like NYM did, it may or may not have led to a reconciliation in my situation, so I had to do what was right for me. NYM stated that she would have been done if her spouse had left. If that's true and she wants a reconciliation then what she did was the right thing for her. I believe if my wife had stayed home and was constantly leaving to be with an alienator it would have done too much damage. I think I might have lost all desire to reconcile so I believe her leaving was best in my case.

So I think all of us should limit our posts to writing about our experiences and try not to tell others what they should do. I have the ability to read about other people's experiences and decide on my own what to do. I don't think I'm unique in that respect. I think all of use are capable of making up our own minds and I don't think it's helpful when others try to tell us what to do or try to tell us that what we're doing is wrong.

Having said that, I'm going to go against my suggestion and I'm going to tell everyone one more time what I think they should do. I think everybody should stop telling other LBSes what to do unless somebody asks for advice.

[xyzcf]

Every situation is unique. You absolutely cannot generalize the way some people seem to feel they must do..there are no absolutes and way too many variables to state with such confidence things such as "MLCers are more likely to return if they never leave home or divorce"

Hearttoheart's story: Apart 7 years, divorced, marriage was annulled, MLCer lived with OW for 3 1/2 years..remarried one another 2 years ago and they are doing great!

I look at some of the stories here where the MLCer is still at home but they are still in crisis. As long as they are in crisis, that is all you can say about the matter. Just as we did not see the crisis happening in our marriages, we cannot forecast the future.

NYM:

Again, the "normal" thing for members of this forum (who come here because it is for STANDERS) may be to beg and plead.

and

Moreover, I think it is even more counterintuitive to stand expecting a return when your spouse has dumped you and moved on. And in that case, we are not talking about newbies.

Comments such as these are hurtful. They are not necessary I am not sure how you base your observations about "standers" since we too are all different.

I have been standing for 10 years and I have been dumped as you so callously state. I won't explain what standing means to me, no point really.

I do wonder why you are so negative and actually quite mean in your comments. Your views are not mine, nor are they the same as other members. Some respect would be appreciated for all members here.

[Thunder]

I'm right there with ya MB.

"I think everybody should stop telling other LBSes what to do unless somebody asks for advice."

Just wanted to add, LBS's who have been around awhile.  Newbies may need advice sometimes, even though they may not ask for it.

[Not Applicable]

I have been standing for 10 years and I have been dumped as you so callously state. I won't explain what standing means to me, no point really.

If my H had done to me what yours has done, yes, I would consider myself having been dumped, 10 years ago.

I 100% respect your choice not to remarry and to respect your covenant marriage. What your H has done and even how I view such behavior does not in any way make me lose respect for your choice. You are not him and you are not responsible for his behavior, which itself was the ultimate of callousness.

I think what has been lost in Shock Sis's dozen threads now is that she has missed the point that her H fully had the right to decide he did not want to put up with what she did and that he chose to move on. She has implied that he has somehow done something wrong because he DIDN'T stand. I'm glad to see there are some people on here who are willing to say that not standing is a fully legitimate choice and that the MLCer does NOT have the right to expect that they will be waited for.

[megogirl]

NYM/Goner

Sis has never implied that her XH did “something wrong” by choosing not to Stand.  Not once.

All she had ever said is that she WISHED he would have Stood because she did, in fact, want him back.

Totally different....!

[rosetintedglasses]

ShocksSis

I have a question:
Which part of your crisis would you say was the worst part for you? Both during the MLC and also now looking back on it?

Thanks a lot!
Rose 🌹

[MyBrainIsBroken]

She has implied that he has somehow done something wrong because he DIDN'T stand.

I disagree. I haven't seen this. Please feel free to prove me wrong by posting an example.

I'm glad to see there are some people on here who are willing to say that not standing is a fully legitimate choice and that the MLCer does NOT have the right to expect that they will be waited for.

I've seen numerous posts stating that each LBS has the right to stand or not. What I haven't seen is a single post stating that it's not ok for an LBS to choose not to stand or that standing is the only legitimate choice. Once again, feel free to prove me wrong by posting an example.

If my H had done to me what yours has done, yes, I would consider myself having been dumped, 10 years ago.

I don't know NYM. I have never met her. But I'm going to guess that she isn't a diplomat.

[megogirl]

Brain

She won’t find any examples, because they don’t exist.

Sis has been very honest, very sweet, yet people have inexplicably continued to bash her (?!)

[Thunder]

SOME people.

[megogirl]

Right Thunder

SOME people continue to antagonize her (and always the same ones!)

[Shockandawe]

Exactly that Mego

NYM, I respect your opinion as I would expect you to respect mine. You have not lived my life and have no concept of my MLC nor my ex h.
I have never told anyone to stand or not. I don’t have the right to do that it’s all personal choice.
I know Shocks h is in MLC and even her I haven’t told to stand, that again is her choice.
In my experience our father was a live in MLCer for 4 years, he almost destroyed our mother and finally left after that time. He wanted back and asked our mother many times, she said no.
It was her choice but she said he destroyed her and any love she had for him during this time.
The fact that I pass on my own experience is something I will continue to do and as I have said before if it angers you then simply don’t read it or respond.
To all LBSERS you do what is right for you because ultimately it’s your choice and you are ALL very important and very good people.

[trusting]

I feel late to the party with so many comments, but just thought I'd throw my own experience in for what it's worth.  I agree that there is no one-size-fits all MLC and there is no predicting which way it will go, just as it is so hard to know why some people navigate midlife and FOO issues without destroying their families and others can't escape MLC and do just that.  FWIW, I read Jim Conway's book (and this is going back several pages of posts) several times after BD.  I found it extremely helpful. However, in retrospect, I don't personally believe he had a full-blown MLC but more of a transition.  He managed to hold on to his faith and his family, which belies a full MLC, in my opinion.

I had a wallower for years.  He didn't leave the house for a very long time.  He was mean, cold, very, very distant.  He did totally destroy our family, even though he was still here.  He finally left and honestly, I finally truly started to heal then.  He's been out a couple of years and it didn't cause too much separation for us to ever have a relationship.  Our relationship now is better than it has been in a decade.  I hear from him all the time and we are definitely rebuilding a relationship, even if not a husband/wife one yet.  I can depend on him again in just about everything.  He is very involved with the kids (and was not while he was in the house).  He is tying up the loose ends of his MLC, I believe. 

When I first started posting on this forum at its beginning, I remember the phrase that was sometimes used - "they have to leave to come back."  Maybe this is true in my case.  We will see.  It certainly is the case for others.  I truly don't believe it makes a difference or not if they leave or stay.

But all that to say that every MLCer is different even though so much is eerily the same - same script, etc. 

[Jackolar12]

Hi everyone and welcome to the recently split topic. So IMHO Wallowers it would seem can be just as destructive at home as the high energy run away types of MLCers. To the Lbs that deal with Wallowers at home you have my sympathy as the stress your under must be so destructive to your soul.

Also it seems IMHO Wallowers have some sort of invisible tether or line in the sand they won’t cross that keeps them from leaving the marriage. It would be interesting to hear if anyone knows where this may stem from, perhaps their home is their anchor and safe haven during MLC it would seem logical, let me hear your opinions...

During the Monster phase some incredibly nasty stuff comes out of their mouths, I would  like to know if this has had long term impact emotionally on the Lbs. Physical violence seems to happen in some cases but again IMHO is thankfully rare, but the gloves are off when it comes to emotional abuse which is a common theme. How have you coped with this...
Kind regards
Jack

[Seahorse]

Jack - I don't really know about the difference between wallowers stay at home versus high energy leavers, but mine is a high energy leaver.  Not through this yet, but we had recently moved to a new state when he left MLC started less than a year after move) so I can't see how he would consider this new home his safe place/his anchor.  Our old home of 15 years, maybe, but he just didn't have the roots here, plus two/three sons were still out of state, so he had a lot of disruption in his life.  I'm sure others have better insight into this.

Still going through this, but as far as how to deal with monster --  I think the best thing to do is to ignore the monster, and to put up appropriate boundaries, and know in your heart that you have someone going through MLC and they are not the person you married.  Just let it go...

Sea

[MyBrainIsBroken]

Also it seems IMHO Wallowers have some sort of invisible tether or line in the sand they won’t cross that keeps them from leaving the marriage. It would be interesting to hear if anyone knows where this may stem from, perhaps their home is their anchor and safe haven during MLC it would seem logical, let me hear your opinions...

I suspect their default stress mechanism is freeze rather than fight or flight. Maybe they're more depressed or their depression is more overt so they don't have the energy for typical Replay activities. Maybe there is no alienator in the picture feeding them with limerent energy and acting as an anti-depressant.

[Seahorse]

Brain - Interesting though.
I wonder what the percentage of live-in MLCers do NOT have op, versus those that leave.
No way to really know, but interesting thought about the energy of op feeding the replay.

Sea

[Jackolar12]

Hi Seahorse, so disruption to his lifestyle may have added to his growing Mlc a sort of trigger.I had just relocated my ex wife into a new business unit when she dropped the bomb on me. I often wonder if the stress of relocating had some bearing on the situation. She must have been thinking about divorce in the 2 years it took me to renovate the premises, as soon as she moved in she dropped the bomb.

[Jackolar12]

BIB that’s an interesting take on wallowing, freezing instead of flight, link that to low energy because of depression may make them dig in rather than run, sounds logical to me. I wish there was up to date info I could access about the prevalence of MLC to see the increase in occurrences over the decades.

[Disillusioned]

Brain - Interesting though.
I wonder what the percentage of live-in MLCers do NOT have op, versus those that leave.
No way to really know, but interesting thought about the energy of op feeding the replay.

Sea

My live in had an OP.

[Seahorse]

Thanks Disillusioned - Maybe it would be a good topic for a "survey" just for curiosity - nothing scientific!
Probably will be split evenly...

Sea

[Caroline]

Reading all of these, I do realize each person is an individual, but my is a wallower though he is more severe as Saviore Fare's XH is.... I' applied for a townhouse after mediation was agreed just lacking a signature... he has since backed out of the mediation so as to not give me money..still wants a divorce... The townhouse I applied for will be ready end of the month and while to date I can't move anything from our home.... I am planning on doing shelf paper and setting up little things until I can... but divorce won't be until around April now...


Based on the discussion do you all think I will decrease the chance for a return if I leave the home? (Until property agreement I will be living in both places since I can't move anything out...)

Just curious about opinions know that no one knows the future

[3Boys4Me]

Caroline, what a hard situation. Personally I don’t think that you moving out will make it more or less likely to reconcile.  Your spouse has to do his own work, have an awakening and want to repair his relationship with you. In some ways the distance may make it easier to detach and less opportunity for you to say and do things you might regret? Just something to consider. When the fog lifts and clarity returns, a spouse who has remorse will understand you had to take care of yourself based on their behavior - if he doesn’t see that, then he is not recovered... just my opinion...

[MyBrainIsBroken]

Caroline,

Nobody really knows what effect your actions will have on the MLCer so the best thing that you can do is to do whatever is best for you. Nothing you do will bring him back before he's ready and it could and probably will be a long time before he's ready. The only thing we know for certain is that there will be no chance of reconciliation once you decide that you're done. Do whatever is necessary to make yourself comfortable enough for a long term stand if that's what you want.

Based on the discussion do you all think I will decrease the chance for a return if I leave the home? (Until property agreement I will be living in both places since I can't move anything out...)

No, IMO you leaving the home won't decrease the chance for a return.

[Velika]

MLC is an umbrella term for an array of behaviors and changes that could describe anything from genuine unhappiness with marriage and a poor ability to communicate all the way to pathological disorders and serious mental illness.

I really believe this forum and site would be most helpful first of all to help people understand the variety of issues that may be going on before assuming we are all dealing with the same thing.

I know a few cases of people who reconciled after a crisis. In two cases, there was an affair and there was a level of "changing residences" without financial commitment. (I.e. crashing with a friend, going off to travel.) In all of the cases where they reconciled, the person in crisis was seeking some type of help, such as therapy.

Usually they were unkind to or critical of/cold to their spouse but didn't make financial moves and didn't show a lack of empathy akin to threatening to take away or taking away things important to them, like their homes, money, or children. None of them made big purchases or changed their looks radically. They seemed like the same person who was just: a) having an affair; b) expressing unhappiness; c) talking about divorce.

Radical personality change with no self awareness is a serious sign of a change in mental health status. It is not simply a "crisis." When we bundle all of these, we don't equip people who come to this site in a serious state of trauma and loss with the tools they might need to actually help and intervene to protect themselves, their children, and possibly even get necessary medical help for their spouse.

I have seen over and over, many times here, people tell newcomers not to try to get their spouse to seek medical attention. This is deeply irresponsible, when some people's safety and children are at stake. Please, if normal attempts to communicate aren't working, or your spouse seems consistently irrational or different, or like an entirely person altogether — and especially if there is a family history of this — advice like focusing on yourself or "paving the way" is as crazy as saying you can pave the way home for a person having a manic episode of bipolar, is having a serious drug reaction, or who has just had a small stroke.

In this case, "paving the way" may mean doing all you can to secure a diagnosis, or at least help enlist the help and intervention of others. The right language can make a difference.

[Thunder]

Velika I'm sorry but I very much, respectfully, disagree with you.

"Radical personality change with no self awareness is a serious sign of a change in mental health status. It is not simply a "crisis."

It's not a "simple" crisis, not at all.  A midlife crisis is very serious.
That is exactly what a midlife crisis is... a real "crisis."
How else do you then describe a midlife crisis, if you believe in it?

"I have seen over and over, many times here, people tell newcomers not to try to get their spouse to seek medical attention. This is deeply irresponsible"

Irresponsible???  We have no control over them.
Somehow you still don't understand...we can not make our MLCer's seek help.
They do not think here is anything wrong with them.  So how do you propose we can convince them they need help?
Did you? Would he have listened?

My H would have thought I was just not believing him that he was unhappy and wanted a divorce, it would have looked manipulative.

I would have looked like I was in denial and not believing what he felt was real.  To him it was!
"Oh no your are wrong feeling this way, we better take you to a doctor, there is something wrong with the way you feel"
That would go over like a lead balloon and he would just have resented me more.
I would never have done this.

They already think we are the enemy.
What you are proposing is making us more of an enemy.

We need to understand they are in a life crisis, and let them go to figure it out on their own and go on living our life "as if" they are not coming back, because few of them do.

[Nas]

I did get my H medical attention. I wrote a letter to his doctor. I was his healthcare proxy at the time and I spoke to his doctor and nurse on the phone and in person. My H went to the doctor. The doctor had the information I gave him and simply referred my H a counselor. H went but it only made him madder at me. And changed nothing.

You can’t force anyone to seek medical attention. You can’t demand doctors treat an unwilling person. Unless they’re so mentally unstable that you are able to have them sectioned against their will. In which case it’s probably not MLC.

My good friend’s father was diagnosed with bvFTD. He just died this past spring. It started with him having a personality change and doing strange things like buying a car and an expensive piece of jewelry for a very young woman behind his wife’s back. Sounds MLCish right? Only on paper. In real life it looked nothing like MLC.

He progressed over a series of about 15 years but it was very evident early on that he had a diagnosable disorder and he was unable to work or live a normal life after a few years. You can read about it and think it sounds so much like MLC but to see it actually play out in real life, the difference is very evident.

[Seahorse]

Nas - THANK you -- that was what I needed to hear, otherwise how would anyone know the difference?
You can't diagnose it, supposedly, until autopsy so on paper it does look the same...
Glad to know that it looks different through it's manifestations than MLC

Sea

[barbiedoll]

What boggles me is that a lot of MLCers decide not to implode their lives and work through these turbulent times. What’s the difference between a work it out or a person that implodes their marriage?

.

A little late to this discussion and find it very interesting indeed. Went back to the original question and thought I would throw in yet another perspective. Of course it is all guess-work, speculation and based mainly on each persons experience and interpretation etc etc. So here is what I believe.

My husband was an extremely high energy "leaver". He reacts strongly when he has to be accountable for abandoning his family . He has hurt himself deeply as a man for leaving my daughter and I. He hates that about himself .  He told me many times over a period of 5-6 months that he was leaving, that he was looking for an apartment ( when he had "time") and in fact he has been "trying to leave me for years " ( this statement has had lasting trauma and impact on me ...almost worse than finding an OW) . I, like some LBS, could not tolerate any of it ( I did not know what "it" was) ...but I knew I was dying. I told him to get out . I have been told by therapist that it was a remarkable thing to be able to do...after 30 years of marriage. When I say I was dying ..I had lost 40 lbs, had such extreme anxiety I thought of death , could not sleep , could not bare being in the house with him and was afraid of him.

He tells me he NEVER wanted to leave. That the day I kicked him out, he was "changing" and was at his "most vulnerable". But he couldn't stay, he needed to leave with a desperation he fought for months. I could not "know" any of his inner workings or thoughts ...I just wanted him gone. I came to realize in therapy that his actions hit my own deepest childhood wounds of abandonment laying dormant inside of me. I could never describe the anguish I endured and the rage that was inhuman.

So, there are MLC'ers that leave suddenly and apparently easily  . There are those that stay in their home and torment and destroy their family in a different way. And then there are those that are kicked out ...who swear they had no intention of truly leaving. Who come to say in some twisted logic that it was the LBS who abandoned the MLCer, by throwing them out . Imagine that in therapy .

I told my husband to leave before I knew about his affair. He was involved with an OW for about 6 months while still living at home. If I had have known about OW, he would have been out in about 5 seconds ...I could NEVER EVER have had him in our home coming and going to an OW.

I take issue with the word "decide" . I am not sure he had any access to the decision -making part of his brain, or forethought or consequences...it was about emotion, fear , explosions internally . He was not in control of himself ...or atleast the "self" that I knew . Ultimately , he did choose to leave. He could have refused but he did not. He ran like a gazelle on fire.

I think the "less" traumatised , damaged or abused "might" travel thru this time still having some ability to forecast the future outcomes of their actions. None of us can know any of the answers .  A "work it out person" may have a higher emotional IQ, a religious commitment , support from men friends ...or a wife that does not kick their ass out. Or maybe it was a "transition" rather than a full blown explosion of their life.

[OffRoad]

The only thing we know for certain is that there will be no chance of reconciliation once you decide that you're done.

I respectfully disagree with this statement. Done or not done, there is always a chance of reconciliation unless one of you is dead. My stand is done. I am done waiting for anything to happen regarding xh and me. If xh should pop up in x amount of time, have done whatever work he needs to do and we like each other at that time, reconciliation is a possibility. But maybe I'm an anomoly. I figure if the person I loved who was my H could become whatever he is now, then he might also change to something I could love agsin. I am done with whomever he is right now. If he says there,  I'm done for good. If he doesn't stay there, anything is possible. I'm not hoping for it, I don't care if it happens or not (I have plenty to do), but I'm not throwing out all the good times because he became a  jerk. Nor would I consider him to always be a jerk if he proved differently. There is done with the relationship that was, and done with ever communicating with your MLCer.  The first has a chance of reconciliation.  The second probably doesn't,  but isn't a certainty by any means. JMO.

[barbiedoll]

My H would have thought I was just not believing him that he was unhappy and wanted a divorce, it would have looked manipulative.

I would have looked like I was in denial and not believing what he felt was real.  To him it was!
"Oh no your are wrong feeling this way, we better take you to a doctor, there is something wrong with the way you feel"
That would go over like a lead balloon and he would just have resented me more.
I would never have done this.

They already think we are the enemy.
What you are proposing is making us more of an enemy.
.

.

I tried to "make" him go to the doctor , twice in fact. I saw the doctor myself and he said  " get him in here ".  What happened? Every single thing quoted above. Insane to say we were somehow irresponsible.

[MyBrainIsBroken]

No offense, OffRoad, but I think you've redefined done.

I'll try again. The only thing we know for certain is that there will be no chance of reconciliation once you decide that you're absolutely, positively, no chance of changing your mind, for all of eternity, until he!! freezes over, cross my heart and hope to die, done, done, done!!!! And even then, there's still a chance of reconciliation until one of you dies.

[Velika]

Telling people not to seek medical attention because you know someone who refused to go, it didn't work —

It's completely irresponsible and reckless! Those are anecdotal stories.

Of course someone should attempt to do what they can to help if in their own circumstance they feel it warrants it. If it didn't work out for you, that's unfortunate, but that doesn't mean it won't work out for someone else.

(I myself was unable to persuade my ex to see a doctor or convince others to help, but I can see now this was in part because I just didn't have the language to describe what I was seeing.)

If we are on a forum for heart pain, would you write, don't seek medical attention because my aunt's friend had chest pain but it turned out to be indigestion? Of course not. Would you say, don't bother checking on Ebstein anomaly, it's rare, if someone thinks they might have finally figured out what is going on?

The brain is a physical organ.

This forum is about as relevant as a discussion of "humours" if people cannot discuss this in medical terms.

Our exes aren't all a bunch of jerks. Some are very unwell and at least deserve our compassionate attempts to understand, and if possible, help.

[Jackolar12]

Mine wouldn’t believe she was in crisis, there was nothing wrong with her and she could see everything clearly according to her. I didn’t ask her to go to the doctors as she was resolute in her decision to divorce me and even had a big smile on her face while she said it.

I did notice herbal tablets she was taking and when I looked them up they were for the Menopause. She never mentioned she was having problems health wise or I would have taken her to the doctors, in fact she looked the picture of health.

I did some online research (as you do) about her behaviours and they matched a cheating spouse. I downloaded the article and brought it to her attention. She looked at it briefly then screwed it up into a ball and threw it at me. I didn’t bother looking further into it as all hell started to break loose within days. My head still spins from this even today as it was bizarre. Looking back in hindsight I can see she was executing her plan and being unaware of her affair I walked straight into her trap.

I don’t think I could have lived with her behaviour if she was a stay at home Wallowers, I’m just not made that way.

[Whyus]

My XW dropped the bomb after I had asked her a simple Question. Babes, do you still love me? (I had had a bad Feeling all day and knew that something was up.) She said no and that was that!!!

She stayed at home and 6 Weeks until i discovered her OM, a gymnerd 15 years younger than her. I asked to to leave for a while and think of whats Happening to us. She left and never came back. She wanted to come back at one point but sill wanted to "go my ways". I wouldnt allow it. I stood for another 6 months but i just couldnt take it anymore.
i couldnt have her in our home whilst she was leaving to see OM, no way. Not in a thousand years.
We sold our house, split the Money then I filed for Divorce. We hardly see each other, last time was S20s Birthday in August. She has totally changed her apearance and her circle of Friends. Her old Hobbies Arent interesting anymore though she has taken doggie back and rebuilt her R with our Boys.

The best thing that I ever done even though it was hard and hurt like hell was to just let go and admit defeat. I am not telling anybody to do this but I felt so much better for it. Sure I still have my WTF? moments but generally I am doing well and i am happy. I wouldnt be where I am today if I had continued my stand whilst she was running around with OM.

IF there was no OM then I would have stood for eternity, I could have found the strength for that but OP is NOT just a SYMPTOM! The OP is very much real and we have NO CHANCE of competing against them and believe me, I am so much more of a man than OM is! FACT.

[Treasur]

I don't know the answer to the Thread question.

But I recognise what WHyUs said about the courage of letting go.
In a way, it's a different kind of love I think...to say I don't get this and it looks like destruction to me but I respect your right as a human to choose for yourself as I have the right to choose to protect myself.
Time usually shows all of us the good choices or not doesn't it?
I honestly don't know if my xh lost himself or found himself or a bit of both.
My perception is based on my perspective; his may be quite different and I may never hear his story.
But I couldn't survive too much more of the abuse and contempt and WTFness....for most of us it really is a crushing bewildering experience to be discarded and diminished and deceived in this way....and my xh seemed to be choosing that as part of his path....so all I could do was let go. In a funny way, it is a win-win really...he got the new life/wife he wanted without dealing with the mess he made for others; I got to choose to say goodbye to people who don't value me or think my life matters.

I suppose a path to reconciliation is possible if something changes in both people but I have no idea how one could predict that in advance.

[Jackolar12]

Whyus, I get what you mean about no OP and the incentive to stand long term, it would seem mine had multiple transgressions in our marriage and used my daughters to cover her tracks. She will never tell me I know so I guess I will have to just try to forget about who and when, 8 years later it shouldn’t really matter I suppose.

I agree with you and Treasures point of view regarding not putting up with their wayward behaviours, I’m exactly the same. I wonder sometimes if she will ever recover from MLC as friends say she still acts like a teenager, perhaps this was an enjoyable phase in her life which fuels the crisis. I wish I had her energy but not her guilt. It’s sooo strange when your former Stepford wife morphs into Cruella Deville.

[Disillusioned]

I did some online research (as you do) about her behaviours and they matched a cheating spouse. I downloaded the article and brought it to her attention. She looked at it briefly then screwed it up into a ball and threw it at me. I didn’t bother looking further into it as all hell started to break loose within days. My head still spins from this even today as it was bizarre. Looking back in hindsight I can see she was executing her plan and being unaware of her affair I walked straight into her trap.

I don’t think I could have lived with her behaviour if she was a stay at home Wallowers, I’m just not made that way.

Ha!  I did the same thing!  Found a checklist of cheating behavior online and she ticked 29 of 30 boxes.  I showed it to her and she said "You're the cheater. You're probably cheating on me!"  (I've never come close to cheating on her, by the way.)  She was able to make it about 6 more months before she bd'd me.  Our physical intimacy was at an extremely high amount that had never occurred during our marriage,  so I was placated for awhile but I could tell there was no emotional connection; something I had been craving for years.  Prior to bd, I was treated to such loving phrases as "Let's just firetruck.  I dont want to make love,"  "I'm only having sex with you to keep you quiet" and "How does it feel to get used for sex?"

After bd,  I was told that having sex with me always felt like she was being raped.      Good times!  She's still the only woman I've been with in two decades and I'm wearing my wedding ring.  The D was filed  by her 6 months ago and nothing else has happened.  I think she's dating, but we've recently become amicable (through supreme effort on my part.) Not sure where this will end up, but I know it's the most difficult thing I've ever undertaken in my life.

[MyBrainIsBroken]

Thread title:

How are MLCers who reconcile different than those who do not?

The most apparent difference I can see is that those who reconcile have an LBS who is willing to reconcile. That's a pretty fundamental requirement and I suspect it's pretty rare since MLC lasts for so long.

I haven't heard of any MLCers who have successfully worked through their MLC and didn't want their old lives back but I'm not sure how to identify an MLCer who has successfully worked through their MLC. It seems like the only criteria we have for identifying the successful completion of an MLC is that they want to reconcile.

How do we identify an MLCer who has successfully worked through their MLC? I'd really like to know. In the early days of my wife's MLC one of my biggest fears was that she'd come out of her MLC without wanting to come back. It's been more than 5 years, she still shows no signs of wanting to come back, but I'm still seeing some MLCish behaviors. So how do we know when the MLC is over?

[Thunder]

Oh boy MB, those are $64,000 questions. 

I do think it's different for everyone.  SS came out of hers pretty well and seems better, but she has an LBS who got married.

Acorns H came out of his crisis pretty well, and seems better.

I see a lot of MLCer's come home but they are not completely out of their crisis.
I'm seriously starting to think even 5 years isn't enough time to get through it.
It sure lasts a long time, doesn't it?

"How are MLCers who reconcile different than those who do not?"

That one might be worth $100,000.

[Jackolar12]

 BIB, if your in with a chance of reconciliation hopefully they will approach you and give you a sincere apology like SHock Sis did to her former husband. Ho how I long for this to happen to me it must have been uplifting to his soul after many years of being unsure why this happened.

They may also have reverted to their old mannerisms and behaviours so you can pick up on these non verbal cues. Just as you saw her get captured by the alien you will know when the woman you married has returned to her former self, the one you love....

[Jackolar12]

Hi Disillusioned, that took real courage and teeth gritting I bet to be amicable with your Mlcer. I hope one day I can do the same thing but for now I probably would blow my top if I bumped into her as she treated me so disrespectfully. It took me 10 years to have conversations with my first wife and when my last wife Bomb dropped me the first wife was on the phone wanting to get back together aargh! I will never figure women out!

Ha ha I only got 27 points on the cheater check list but I did get it screwed up and thrown in my face so I will class this as a result.
Jack

[Not Applicable]

It takes two people to reconcile. Asking only about the MLCer I think is only looking at half the picture.

I think it takes more on the LBS side than a desire to reconcile. There's too many cases of LBSes who wanted to reconcile who pushed the MLC for full reconciliation too early and the MLCer ran to never return. So what benefit was their desire to reconcile when it just made them over anxious for things to wrap up?

[gman242]

So what's the anecdotal evidence of M vs F return? I'm just curious as I feel that's valid also.

[Standing Strong]

So what's the anecdotal evidence of M vs F return? I'm just curious as I feel that's valid also.

I believe more MLC women make it back than men..... if the man hung around. We normally don't though.
So overall success rates are higher for the female LBS as the male LBS's don't exist in such numbers.... the female LBS population is so much higher.

I think female MLC'ers process faster than male MLC'ers too......... white matter (female) brains process emotions and feeling problems much better than our (higher) grey matter (male) brains.

That's my feeling anyway.

-SS

[MyBrainIsBroken]

So what benefit was their desire to reconcile when it just made them over anxious for things to wrap up?

Good question. I think this is why it's important for the LBS to work on their own issues. Then, instead of being over anxious, they'll be able to patiently wait for the process to unfold.

Sorry Gman, I don't have any anecdotal evidence one way or the other. My personal opinion is that male LBSes are less likely to stand so female MLCers would be less likely to have an LBS to reconcile with, thus leading to fewer female MLCers reconciling. Shock's Sis is a good example. It seems like there are a lot more female LBSes standing on this forum than male LBSes which would seem to support the hypothesis that fewer female MLCers reconcile because fewer male LBSes are willing to be long term standers.

[OldPilot]

I think female MLC'ers process faster than male MLC'ers too......... white matter (female) brains process emotions and feeling problems much better than our (higher) grey matter (male) brains.

I think that would depend on age.

Men at older ages are more like women and women at older ages are more like men.

[Thunder]

I believe you're right, OP.  Has a lot to do with hormones as we age.

My personal opinion is, more men come back than women.  I don't have any proof of this it's just been my observation over the years I've been here.

Not that there are many who return, though.

[gman242]

I agree too thunder, from previous discussions.

It's tough to really know what's going on and this is strictly IMHO, I think men see more regrets in terms of their career choices, hobbies ect and "wake up" one day and think that things may not have turned out exactly how they wanted, but it wasn't all bad either. I think women on the other hand, can't separate their spouses and families from the burden they feel in being the primary caregiver and because of that, they're less likely to come back. I don't think they harbor the, I guess, romantic feelings towards their spouse, the way a man might see their wife as the mother of their children and so on.
 
I've met a lot of women on the dating sites that got rid of their husbands and kids and they're done. Now, there may be more WAW's than MLC wives out there, that may account for some differences. I don't have the raw data in front of me, but that's my gut feeling.

Overall though I think that returns are unlikely because not being able to process or deal with their feelings is what got them into the situation to begin with and I don't think they will face them if they don't have to. I think there's a trend in OPs, in that they're warm bodies that take the place of the spouse but they either boss the spouse, cause drama or don't challenge them much. I think either way, they just fill a need without the baggage of the original family and spouse.

I'm just widely speculating here though. So grain of salt please.

[Jackolar12]

NYM, I haven’t seen (except in court) or spoken to mine  in 8 years post bomb drop. But love for her still dwells within me, you just can’t turn it off. A return would be uplifting but also scary for me and I would initially be looking over my shoulder all the time for sure. Unless she was totally baked and committed to rebuilding from the foundations again I think my anxieties would drive her away.

[Jackolar12]

Gman, I remember in University reading an academic Midas study 2004 if memory serves me correctly. The qualitative interviews gathered identified 26% of Americans who took part in the study stated they had a MLC. There was insufficient data to convince me though as I think a lot might have mistook a midlife transition for a crisis.

To date I have found nothing accredited that supports MLC and if you ever find some please post it.

[Jackolar12]

I don't know the answer to the Thread question.

But I recognise what WHyUs said about the courage of letting go.
In a way, it's a different kind of love I think...to say I don't get this and it looks like destruction to me but I respect your right as a human to choose for yourself as I have the right to choose to protect myself.
Time usually shows all of us the good choices or not doesn't it?
I honestly don't know if my xh lost himself or found himself or a bit of both.
My perception is based on my perspective; his may be quite different and I may never hear his story.
But I couldn't survive too much more of the abuse and contempt and WTFness....for most of us it really is a crushing bewildering experience to be discarded and diminished and deceived in this way....and my xh seemed to be choosing that as part of his path....so all I could do was let go. In a funny way, it is a win-win really...he got the new life/wife he wanted without dealing with the mess he made for others; I got to choose to say goodbye to people who don't value me or think my life matters.

I suppose a path to reconciliation is possible if something changes in both people but I have no idea how one could predict that in advance.

From what I have heard off people who work alongside my Mlcer she is sort of happy and takes regular holidays with her OM2 who she thinks the world of apparently. So it looks like I might have been holding her back unintentionally and cramping her true self. I guess I will never know...

[MyBrainIsBroken]

Jack, that's something that many of us wonder but have no way of knowing.

[OffRoad]

No offense, OffRoad, but I think you've redefined done.

I'll try again. The only thing we know for certain is that there will be no chance of reconciliation once you decide that you're absolutely, positively, no chance of changing your mind, for all of eternity, until he!! freezes over, cross my heart and hope to die, done, done, done!!!! And even then, there's still a chance of reconciliation until one of you dies.

You might be right. I can guarantee I see shades of most definitions. But I buy your definition above 100%

[OffRoad]

As my opinion, mlcers who properly want to reconcile need to have figured out that the fault was within themselves. They don't blame others for their own shortcomings. They try to figure out how to make it right. (from what I read, Barbies husband tries in his own way. She needs something more, yet he has not given up) And yes, they must have a willing LBS to come back to. Willing does not equate to doormat, either.

I don't think it has anything to do with if they left home or got divorced. I think some stay at home if they can do as they like and it's easy and some stay at home because they are afraid to leave and some stay at home because they don't want to leave. We can't know which is which until they get to the end, if they ever do.

Same with those that leave.  Heck, same with the LBS! Some go fast, some get stuck, some go slow, some don't go at all. We all get where we are going in whatever time it takes for us to get there.

[Not Applicable]

Part of the problem here is that everyone is assuming their spouse is in MLC.

In some cases here, it is probably obvious to everyone but the LBS who hopes for reconciliation that their spouse is NOT in MLC and really just has left a bad marriage.

Perhaps the reason some MLCers leave and don't come back is because they were never MLCers in the first place.

[Jackolar12]

NYM, if we didn’t think they were in MLC we would all be on the Chump Lady site throwing bricks at the cheating fire truckers. Most people are self-aware and know when something’s not right in a situation, here we gather in numbers to discuss our boggles and hopefully by networking together gain a global understanding of what seems to be an increasing problem in our times.

[gman242]

NYM, At least in this thread, I think we're talking generally about MLC and not in specific cases. People have to process in their own time, all you can do is either be nice or move on.

Jackolar12, It seems like to me over the last 20 years all we've heard about is mid, mid quarter, early 1/3rd crises and so ons. I personally, don't see any difference between a transition and a crisis, other than the crisis involves a a catastrophic "break". Things like quitting a job without having a new one lined up, cheating. I think in a crisis, the person gives into impulse and creates damage in their lives that may be irreparable.

I see it as the MLT being the tip of the iceberg.. I think the person in MLT has enough sense of self and emotional functionality to realize something is wrong. They may over compensate for a while and then realize this is an indication that they haven't been taking an inventory of their life and direction of it, mental health ect. due to an overall poor sense of self or healthy coping mechanisms. One may come out more positive on the other side.. a career path change and so on.

I think a person in crisis is just further down the pole, or below the water line to use the iceberg metaphor. I think the people in crisis have a more severe lack of coping, critical thinking skills and emotional awareness than the person in MLT. I think the "break "event is needed because their main coping skills have been avoidance and projection. The can't separate a stressful time at work from another wise good job and they quit, thinking everyone was against them, for instance.

This is just my armchair thinking.. I think everyone goes through transitions all the time. So you're right and I'd agree that most people would respond to a survey would sound like they were in a transition. Maybe the people doing the survey hadn't heard of transition or they had their own bias or lack of understanding when they did the research.

Again, I think everyone transitions. I think the pendulum just swings from gentle course change to full on crisis, based on that persons support system, how developed their sense of self is, emotional intelligence and coping mechanisms.

[Jackolar12]

Gman , I would agree with what you have said and everyone transitions throughout life. Some transition smoothly while Mlcers have the inability to cope with the transition and make knee jerk decisions in panic. I read about the Amygdala’s ability to override the brains normal control systems of evaluation and reasoning while in threatening situations activating the fight or flight systems. The stresses of transition in Mlcers might be causing some to run from
the LBS if they are viewed as a threat.

[Jackolar12]

Thanks MIB it’s nice to talk to people who understand my pain. I know you were married longer than I was so I feel your pain too. Some think men have no feelings and we just dust our self off and march on to the next conquest. In the aftermath of MLC the reality of life becomes uncertain relationship wise, at least to me it does....

[Standing Strong]

Who is the "Chump Lady"?

I've seen this a couple times.

-SS

[Jackolar12]

SS, she’s totally anti- cheater pants and has a small army of chumps that have been cheated on. Google it up SS and read the forum blog, we are a lot more tolerant of our former spouses and try to understand what drove them to blow up everyone’s life.

 She (aka Linda)has indicated previously she visited Hero Spouse and In my interpretation of her words we are misguided sad sausages and should get a life and forget about the cheater. Perhaps she has a point... I often feel I was too trusting with my Ex but I can’t operate any other way, perhaps I’m meant to be single, good job I have lots of hobbies to keep me busy.

[gman242]

Jack, I feel the same way. I've been doing a lot of reading over the years and I think we're just different types of guys. Who are wired differently anyway.

My xw was the only person I felt I could talk to. I feel like most women I've met prefer to be emotionally available or just want a guy to take them places. I don't mind the latter, but I can't handle shallow talk forever. The women I feel I can talk to, aren't available or there isn't mutual interest. I think it takes a special kind of person to appreciate us and for whatever reason, or spouses stopped for long enough to notice and there was a mutual spark. I sometimes worry that's all I'll ever have had.

People who cheat and move on because they want to, are gone. People with issues such as an MLC look back over their shoulder and tug on anchor chains. We don't have to be with someone else if we don't want to, but I don't think that means we have to stop moving on either.

[Thunder]

Chump Lady came here a few years back pretending to be a LBS, so she got support and advice, then went back to her site and made fun of everything.  It was very disrespectful and I would never read her advice again.  I checked it out once when I was told what she did.

She may be good for pissed off LBS's, they could maybe get something from her.  They can all be pissed off together.  LOL

[OldPilot]

I think the basic advice that we give is  not that much different than what Chump lady says without the anger and vitriol.
I have been here for 10 years and likely ended up exactly where Chump Lady says.
Point being - detach, and keep moving forward.
Then YOU decide where you want to be.

JMHO

[gman242]

I agree OP.. I came here too because I felt i could do without the vitriol. I think we all end up in the same place regardless, it's up to us which path we take to get there.

[Jackolar12]

gman we must be brothers your thoughts are my thoughts and i have often felt different to the rest of the pack, a lone wolf sort of thing.

[terrified_in_TN]

... She (aka Linda)has indicated previously she visited Hero Spouse and In my interpretation of her words we are misguided sad sausages and should get a life and forget about the cheater. Perhaps she has a point...

Don't feel too bad about her might having a point.  There are posters here that absolutely do NOT like her at all, or the message her website tries to send.  If you have never heard of her, Chump Lady is the ANTI-Hero spouse.

I actually do read her site from time to time.  I think her message has an audience.  For certain if you have been married for say 30 years and you discover your spouse has been cheating all 30 years of it...I don't think hero spouse would be the best fit for that person.

My personal view is HS is often too "aw the poor MLCer, what they must be going through!", and Chump Lady is a bit too much "Firetruck them!".

I read both to try and strive for a sense of balance.

-T

[Jackolar12]

Thunder I can remember when she did it and RCR replying to her. It wasn’t very diplomatic of Chump Lady to run us down but it’s her choice I suppose and it’s our choice to put cat crap under her car door handles hehe🙀 not that I would do that folks👀. I go there when I’m angry at my Mlcer just to read the vitriol in the chumps posts.

[Thunder]

Yes Jock, I read replies from RCR and stayed on her site.
It was good she got called out on her own site.   

[Jackolar12]

OP I totally agree we are in the place where Chump Lady talks about but calmer for the knowledge we share and we can always vent on a bad day here. Some of the posts are very funny there and lift my spirits up to move forwards, I like all the different names they tag their cheaters with. I do feel sorry for Chump Lady though as being cheated on has hurt her deeply,truly a woman scorned.....

[Standing Strong]

And her name is actually "Chump Lady"??!!?!?!?! 

Who would want to be known as that?!!?!?! 

LOL!!!!!

-SS

Update: Ok, I found her..... wow!!! Woman scorned indeed. Well, you know..... it's all about how you control yourself. You can have grace and forgiveness.... or let a cancer of hate consume your heart, your soul and your mind. It's too bad some will choose the easier, self-destructive road. Love and hate aren't roommates and don't live together. I choose love.

[Jackolar12]

T in T, balance hits the mark with me to, good and evil with balance somewhere in between. I think the sharing of knowledge between us here softens our hearts towards our Mlcers over time as we try to figure out the many reasons they went into Mlc and cheated. The chump site just nails them to the cross and sets fire to them. I wonder what the perfect balance would be any posters care to elaborate?

[Treasur]

The language is fierce but the purpose is self-love imho and sometimes people need anger and outrage to break the pattern of abuse. Or at least to see that the first question is about what they need as opposed to only thinking about the needs of a destructive spouse. And she has a very funny turn of phrase...

Tbh, the core advice is often not a million miles from what we say here but more gently.
Didn't cause it, can't control it, can't fix it. Not about you but them. Focus on dealing with how it is and put yourself and your kids first. The difference perhaps is that many of us here believe that our spouses are temporarily disordered rather than it being a permanent cast of their character...but to be fair, some of us may be wrong. The weirdness of the change in them leads us to see it that way I guess but often the practicalities are the same aren't they? Perhaps on HS we accept the ambiguity of LBS feelings whereas Chump Lady focuses more clearly on the survival of the LBS and uses blunt language to shake people out of despair or denial.

Is that better or worse? Idk. Some here would say with hindsight that trying to stand cost them a great deal and that it took them too long to shut down abusive behaviour that affected them or their kids. That they made too many excuses and not enough boundaries. Others would say that they needed to feel they had done their best and that Standing gave them the time to accept the reality of what they were dealing with. Maybe it just depends on whether anger is a useful motivating fuel for you or not. There are as many awful stories there as here and as few successful restored relationships probably.

[Standing Strong]

I don't know T......

I've met and know lots of people that got mad and could never break that, never trust again. That's very unhealthy (IMO).
Anger leads to more victimization too...... personally I would never want to sign up for that. There's no peace in anger.
You can get angry, but then get over it. That's essential.

For me, no matter what happens.... I will never be a victim. I refuse. Something bad may happen to me, and then it's time to keep moving forward.
Knock me down: I'll get up. Hit me once: I'm ready to be hit again. Wound me: I will heal. The only person who can take my smile: Is me.

-SS

[Jackolar12]

I like the way you explained that Treasure and it’s so very true to our situations we need self love to start the healing process, when I recovered 18 months later from the shock of BD I had surges of anger and wanted justice, after 8 years I don’t believe I will get any.

I guess I will never be sure if the sudden change in personality was MLC or just the mask falling off my ex wife as she no longer needed to hide behind it. Getting loads of info from conflicting sources forces you to think a lot during these times and eventually I will get fed up of thinking and find peace.

I know I never want to experience any thing like this again even if it means loneliness and singledom.

[Jackolar12]

Standing Strong, what’s the secret to trusting again as I suffer with this badly. I did get angry and this is still just below the surface. I feel if I drop my guard I will get suckered again. Divorced people my age have been around the block too many times and are very weary of starting again.

I suppose lots of expensive therapy might help I have had some, I have also drunk myself unconscious many times in the divorce years to numb my pain. At one point I thought my heart would explode......but here I am, bruised, battered, abused but still in the race, just...she wasn’t perfect but she was perfect for me...and now she is my perfect enemy.

[MyBrainIsBroken]

Jack, I'm not SS but I'll try to answer your question.

Not trusting other people is completely justifiable. There are a lot of untrustworthy people in the world and trusting an untrustworthy person is just going to get you hurt. Great answer, huh?

The secret is to use baby steps. Try trusting somebody with something small and relatively insignificant. If that works out, move it up a level. Keep doing that and eventually you'll learn whether or not that person deserves your trust.

Trust isn't given. Trust is earned.

[Jackolar12]

Hey Thunder, I posted on my thread but it’s come up on the vulnerability trust thread, also some replies are missing from posters. Any idea what’s happened as I’m not very savvy tec wise.
Jack

[gman242]

Jack, I split the thread here..

https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11211.0

You had a thank you post in it, I think. I'm new to how this forum software works here. If you want to repost it here, I can delete it from the other thread, or Thunder or someone can advise.

[Jackolar12]

I’m not very savvy on how to delete or transfer posts as yet gman, it’s ok leave it wear it is but it might confuse others. My posts were up to 153 that’s why I left a thank you gman but they have gone down now. Once the threads full I will start another topic, good luck in your moderator role, I’m off back to the vulnerability thread as I’m unfortunately highly qualified in that subject and wish I wasn’t.
Kind regards
Jack

[mightymama]

People who cheat and move on because they want to, are gone. People with issues such as an MLC look back over their shoulder and tug on anchor chains. We don't have to be with someone else if we don't want to, but I don't think that means we have to stop moving on either.

Exactly.  My XH has a girlfriend, possibly live-in, I dunno, but he also sends me some pics of our son at times and then gets very upset when I dont reply back to him. I dont know what he wants me to say, he fired me from being his wife, yet he looks back and seems curious as to what I'm up to, then catches himself and runs off again with Miss Thing who is pretty much like a mini me regarding likes and dislikes and even ethnicity and looks.  Its creepy.  Im moving forward away from the weirdness yet he is distant yet needs the occasional looksee on me to see what Im up to.

[Jackolar12]

Seems like he’s checking his anchor in life is still there for when he wants to return. If he’s high on the Narcissism scale he may be “hoovering” you to see if he still has you wanting him. Or he might be a “cake eater” wanting to keep you both on the hook.
Kind regards
Jack

[gman242]

Or both.. since they are two sides of the same coin. They're still attached for whatever reason and many people pick OPs that are a lot like the LBS. My XWs OM, has the exact same shorts I do and I saw that she sold his grill on facebook for him, the same one I had.. He was in the army and named his dog after a character on futurama. All similar to me..

It just makes you wonder why they'd leave you for a clone. The only thing i can think of is they need the familiarity for stability, but enjoy the lack of history and the same old problems. However, they also aren't getting the good stuff either.. the little jokes, things you do for each other and so on and I think that's why they look back. They miss is and possibly secretly hope you haven't moved on too far.

[Jackolar12]

Yes both I agree is a more comprehensive way to look at it. His perception is skewed at this time he’s making emotional choices but with another but similar person as he still wants the life that he had. He misses the thrills of Limerence and is enjoying the feelings of the serotonin/Adrenalin rush that it brings with the new person. This will wear off over time.

[Whyus]

He misses the thrills of Limerence and is enjoying the feelings of the serotonin/Adrenalin rush that it brings with the new person. This will wear off over time.
Maybe, Maybe not. Even if so some seem to get stuck or trapped with OP, Maybe too proud to admit that it was a mistake and decide to live with the consiquences and make the best of the situation. Thats how it seems with my XW for example. Not that I care anymore, they deserve each other. In 4 years OM can celebrate XWs 50th Birthday at 35! I (46) couldnt imagine being with a 61 year old atm (no offence), it would be as if im with MIL  ... its just all too creepy for a normal brain to understand

[Thunder]

Whyus darling,

I have to stand up for a few of us ladies who married younger men.

Can you honestly look back at your xw and not understand how a younger man could have been attracted to her, or enjoyed her company?
 
To me it's no more creepy than a man with a wife who is years younger than her H.
Just depends on the people.   

[Jackolar12]

Hi Whyus, yes in some cases that’s true the same with mine she’s been with him for around 6-7 years. I haven’t bumped into her since abandonment she knows I’m packing perhaps that’s why. To be honest I wouldn’t waste the bullet on her, but strangulation doesn’t cost anything does it.

Reports from a mutual friend says she’s acting like a teenager would still so I think she’s turned into what I call a zombie criser and will be that way possibly forever.

He’s a cheater too he was married to a lady for 33 years and when I met her she was devastated as much as I was. When she found out she threw him out with his clothes in bin bags and the cheeky fire trucker moved into my family home.

I wasn’t there of course but was paying half the mortgage to keep the roof over my children’s heads. Both being immoral types ones going to slip up in time that’s for sure as mine was the second affair he had been involved with though his poor wife who was a sexual health nurse didn’t know and I didn’t have the heart to tell her. She told me she thought he was having a midlife crisis.
Jack

[gman242]

Age never bothered me. It's more about the personalities than age I think. I only think it's creepy unless age is the only reason you're with someone and I guess it's a fetish at that point lol

[UrsaMajor]

Maybe, Maybe not. Even if so some seem to get stuck or trapped with OP, Maybe too proud to admit that it was a mistake and decide to live with the consiquences and make the best of the situation. Thats how it seems with my XW for example. Not that I care anymore, they deserve each other. In 4 years OM can celebrate XWs 50th Birthday at 35! I (46) couldnt imagine being with a 61 year old atm (no offence), it would be as if im with MIL  ... its just all too creepy for a normal brain to understand

Oh Dude!  You did NOT go there did you?

My mom (soon to be 84 but in better shape than most 70 year olds I know) is married to a man 14 years younger than she is and she keep him on his toes...

It's not the physical age that is an issue for the most part but rather the mental age. Most women will live longer than we will anyway...

[Nas]

Hi Whyus, yes in some cases that’s true the same with mine she’s been with him for around 6-7 years. I haven’t bumped into her since abandonment she knows I’m packing perhaps that’s why. To be honest I wouldn’t waste the bullet on her, but strangulation doesn’t cost anything does it.

Reports from a mutual friend says she’s acting like a teenager would still so I think she’s turned into what I call a zombie criser and will be that way possibly forever.

He’s a cheater too he was married to a lady for 33 years and when I met her she was devastated as much as I was. When she found out she threw him out with his clothes in bin bags and the cheeky fire trucker moved into my family home.

I wasn’t there of course but was paying half the mortgage to keep the roof over my children’s heads. Both being immoral types ones going to slip up in time that’s for sure as mine was the second affair he had been involved with though his poor wife who was a sexual health nurse didn’t know and I didn’t have the heart to tell her. She told me she thought he was having a midlife crisis.
Jack

I would group the stuff about the age difference in the same bucket I’d put all the manslaining. And misinformation about “the” menopause. I feel it tells us all something about how some of you view women in general.

Your first paragraph, however, is...well, frankly, disturbing as hell. The fact that you’re packing is the reason she avoids running into you? Why? What reason does she have to think you would use your gun?
Oh right...I guess the “joke” about wasting a bullet but strangulation bring free might be a reason to stay away.
That’s not sarcasm or a joke. It’s plain concerning.
IMO, you have a massive amount of work to do on your anger, your self-esteem, and your views about men and women. What your wife has done and how she lives her life can’t be changed, but you can change the road you’re on.

[Whyus]

Sorry for the missunderstanding…. you know what im like by now 

Whyus darling,
I have to stand up for a few of us ladies who married younger men.
Can you honestly look back at your xw and not understand how a younger man could have been attracted to her, or enjoyed her company?
I can imagine, i know what he sees in her. She sure isnt ugly, she is Beautiful BUT nowhere near as Beautiful as she was before she turned into teenmom with a cameltoe
To me it's no more creepy than a man with a wife who is years younger than her H.
Of Course not, I never said that it was :-)
Just depends on the people.   

Age never bothered me. It's more about the personalities than age I think. I only think it's creepy unless age is the only reason you're with someone and I guess it's a fetish at that point lol

This is more how I meant it, XW literally brags About having a much younger (new) BF! People tell me this and they just roll their eyes because ist pathetic. Love is surely something else.

UM, yes i went there  , great GIF btw. That wont happen to us though, we drive responsibly. Stay safe 

Nas, n Jacks Defence im sure that he was joking. He is british, People dont carry guns in the UK. Its not the USA though his comments werent funny atall.

[Nas]

Maybe, Maybe not. Even if so some seem to get stuck or trapped with OP, Maybe too proud to admit that it was a mistake and decide to live with the consiquences and make the best of the situation. Thats how it seems with my XW for example. Not that I care anymore, they deserve each other. In 4 years OM can celebrate XWs 50th Birthday at 35! I (46) couldnt imagine being with a 61 year old atm (no offence), it would be as if im with MIL  ... its just all too creepy for a normal brain to understand

Oh Dude!  You did NOT go there did you?

My mom (soon to be 84 but in better shape than most 70 year olds I know) is married to a man 14 years younger than she is and she keep him on his toes...

It's not the physical age that is an issue for the most part but rather the mental age. Most women will live longer than we will anyway...

I’m 45 (with cancer, relevant to this point) and the men who have hit on me in the last year have all known I have cancer...and have all bern in their mid 30s.

WhuUs, can’t quite put my finger on it, but if he’s not actually “packing” that seems to make the joke even more disturbing. Given the fixation after 8 years and now “joking” about billets and strangulation...I think it would behoove Jack to start some inner work and embark down a different path. Not because I’m perfect and healed and holier than thou. Just because what I see from his posts is an unhealthy pattern of thought with a singular focus on something he can’t do anything about.

[Thunder]

Jackolar,

Do you want to start a new discussion thread?

[Jackolar12]

Yes I was joking whyus I love her to bits obviously. NAS you have your opinions of me and I of you I can’t change that but I wish it was different, dwelling on my words and posts is slowly giving me the creeps I’m being stalked, harassed and disparaged by you I wish you would stop this behaviour towards me and my view points and chill out. If you don’t like the way I post don’t read them simples.

[Jackolar12]

Hi Thunder not at this moment I want to spend what time I have on my other thread as I’m not good at multi tasking but thanks anyway.
Kind regards
Jack

[UrsaMajor]

Jack,

Thunder's "request" wasn't really a request. We need to cap the threads at about 150 posts for purposes of the Forum S/W. If this discussion is to continue, it will need a new thread. Otherwise, we can lock it and it will be archived but the discussion will then end.

And, to be blunt, Nas is questioning your wording and some of your comments just as others would. The Forum is an open discussion board where anyone is free to comment on anyone else's thread as they see fit. Nas is responsible for her comments. She is NOT responsible for YOUR interpretation or your emotional reaction to her comments.... You may choose to request that they refrain from commenting on your threads (perfectly legitimate request) but "stalking?" Are you serious?



UM

[nah]

I would be interested in seeing a discussion thread on MLC and age gap relationships. The women got upset when it was implied that an older woman shouldn’t be with a younger man. However, when I mention the Leaver’s girl is about 25 yrs younger, most people are disgusted. Have the tables of acceptance turned? Why is it so common for MLCers to go much younger?  Do age gap relationships usually last? (Statistics say no)

Why do people cheer when I say I was with much younger men but disgusted when men do the same?

Btw... I dated young but married a guy a year within my age.

[Whyus]

I would be interested in seeing a discussion thread on MLC and age gap relationships. The women got upset when it was implied that an older woman shouldn’t be with a younger man. However, when I mention the Leaver’s girl is about 25 yrs younger, most people are disgusted. Have the tables of acceptance turned? Why is it so common for MLCers to go much younger?  Do age gap relationships usually last? (Statistics say no)

Why do people cheer when I say I was with much younger men but disgusted when men do the same?

Btw... I dated young but married a guy a year within my age.

This!
"Why is it so common for MLCers to go much younger?"...…. especially this! Its all About feelig Young again and still "having it" (with my WX it is, just personal experience).

[Nas]

Yes I was joking whyus I love her to bits obviously. NAS you have your opinions of me and I of you I can’t change that but I wish it was different, dwelling on my words and posts is slowly giving me the creeps I’m being stalked, harassed and disparaged by you I wish you would stop this behaviour towards me and my view points and chill out. If you don’t like the way I post don’t read them simples.

If no one steps in to say how vile this post is, I truly don’t see a place for me on this forum anymore.
Accused of stalking a poster for making a few posts in regards to concerning statements?
No, I will not accept silence on this one.

[UrsaMajor]

The Thread is now closed due to posting limits and, unless a follow-on thread is started (which Jack indicated he did not wish to do) will be archived in due time.