[MadLuv]

https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=12098.150

Will it ever end?

Recently after 1 yr 8 mths of no communication via phone or text I had to email my XH. Sales of NfL tickets weren’t covering post season, so sent an email ( to avoid a conversation, but to inform only) that stated that there may be a charge coming due to this and also stated we did have one ticket not used if he wanted to go. We are to share tickets, but he has not gone since married, but he has not wanted to give up the tickets. Last lawyer communication I asked to clarify how to handle the tickets and the lawyer nor XH responded, but he continues to pay for the tickets.

I assumed the avoidant XH he has been and the vanisher he has become he would just ignore, but at least I did my part on the offer of sharing the seats as per the divorce. Well, last night I got a response and I was shocked. Then I read the response and at first I had a bit of a stomach drop as it seemed intentionally cruel to me, but then I realized that his OW/wife clearly sent it.  We had agreed on our divorce to go to one game a year as family and that clearly will never happen, but the response was

My email

Xh,
S32 wants to go to the playoffs this year. We have not been going. I have transferred ticket sales and it covers the divisional game, but there will be a $422 charge if they go to the championship game. If you would like to go to either game we have kept a game ticket open for you, but if I don’t hear from you I will sell your ticket and credit the account.

Madluv

Reaponse from him ( but definitely her)

No, because if I decided to go, I would need another ticket to take my wife with me.

First, my XH cant spell and he definitely does not use commas. Second, it’s about her. Not about him spending time with his son.  I don’t know if she responded without him knowing or if he knows. I would not put it past him to delete the email from me and for her to find it and respond, but what I do know is that she definitely is in control and does not care at all about him connecting with his kids.
 Obviously, the game is next week. He never asked for tickets and now plane tickets, hotels are booked. If he wanted to go with his son I would absolutely give up the game for him to go with his son as he hasn’t seen him in 3 years.

I know I need to cover myself legally so it doesn’t look like I am not sharing tickets he is entitled to, but I also don't want to get sucked into any drama.  S32 would NEVER go to a game with her or spend any time with her and he knows it, so this is definitely her.

Open to any suggestions from anyone that can view this from the outside on how to respond. I thought about just responding with a screen print that I put the ticket up for sale, but I feel I need to address that the response is that he “cant” basically go because he isn’t being given the 2 tickets

Any advise???

[Treasur]

I really think you don’t.
You offered a ticket. He (?) said No. So you sell it as you said you would and credit the account.

His reasons for the No are not your concern.
If he allows ow to answer emails for him, also not your concern. (Well, other than it might affect how/if you email him in future)
And his choice, or not, to spend time with his son is also not your concern. (Even if it causes you some concern for your son if that makes sense, but to be fair, they are both adults and entirely capable of spending time with each other without an NFL game if they wish to do so)

Your query was asked and answered, and is now documented to cover your legal obligations.

Imho you were fired from the job of being concerned about any of the rest of it. But, after decades of being the family facilitator, it can take a while to lay down some of those old responsibilities if only in your head perhaps? But it’s ok to do so.

[marvin4242]

Sorry I am a bit confused. You asked a question, you received an answer. I mean this with all respect but it's not your job nor your place to interpret or guess who it came from, why, or analyze grammar. That seems to imply you are still a bit on the hook (as Treasur also said). And I am guessing the legal agreement has no clause about his right applying based on who he wants to take (son, wife, girlfriend, random stranger), right?

I am personally confused about what no means, no don't sell the ticket, or sell it. But if you think you know which it is it doesn't matter who it came from. If it is his right then the action, analysis and thought should stop there.

[forthetrees]

Not your circus, not your monkeys. I would interpret the "no" as he´s not interested in the ticket. Go ahead and sell it. If you respond she will know that you are still in their drama. You have worked far too hard and for far too long to get tangled in her tentacles. The Yiddish phrase for this sounds like "lazan meyle" which I take to mean, "God, let it go." It´s not worth your time or effort.

[MadLuv]

Thank you treasur,  marvin and fortthetrees

His, No because you’re not giving me enough tickets is what was the concern. For me. Since I said we held a ticket for you.

I am the account holder of the tickets. We have 5. So, he can’t go without asking me and me sending him the tickets. I haven’t messaged him in a year, even on business nor a convo on phone in almost 2 years. I think I was concerned because we are to share the tickets. He hasn’t asked at all for any and I stopped asking him, but since there was money due this year  on the post season I gave him the heads up on the charge. I did not expect a reply , so was just stating that it appears to be her, because he would not reply. Why now? He has ignored all business communication for 2 years.

 So, the change had me concerned that maybe legally the response was that I was not giving him the ability to go with his share of the tickets. We fortunately and unfortunately have many financial agreements for the rest of our lives and I am always trying to protect those. I get nervous when there is a change.  His OW/Wife is very materialistic and greedy. Who knows when she will try and enforce some financial changes.

I have stepped back for several hours and decided not to reply. He knows when games are happening and can ask me for the tickets . I tried to be considerate, but I just don’t want to play the game. I agree. I have worked to hard to be sucked back in. He knows if he wants to go I would give him tickets, but not after we have made plans 1 week before a game he didn’t ask to go to.

In the beginning it was nice that I asked and he agreed to so much, but I also hate that it keeps me tied and a little on edge on when it may still implode on me. If that makes sense.

[marvin4242]

In the beginning it was nice that I asked and he agreed to so much, but I also hate that it keeps me tied and a little on edge on when it may still implode on me. If that makes sense.

Thanks for clarifications, and that is completely understandable. Fortunately you have the solution in your hands: constantly work to not get roped in, triggered, pulled in, etc. You already have the perfect solution: have him ask for tickets and if he doesn't ask you can assume he doesn't want it.

It took me a while to stop worrying, planning or sometimes even caring about my Ws actions and motivations. But the more I just let things stand at face value the easier it was to detach.

[OffRoad]

In general, what everyone said. Asked, answered done.

However, what does "share" the tickets mean? If you have five, how many is he entitled to? One? Half? Three one year and two the next? This matters in the equation of should you do something different next year or not.

[MadLuv]

Offroad- exactly. We have 5 tickets and we are to share equally. However, every year I asked and he declined ( I assume out of shame) 2 years ago I had the issue of his not responding anymore after I found proof of him cheating as far back as 2010. I told him that we were not friends and he had not been for a long time. I told him that when he decided to be accountable ( because even with proof he said he didn’t believe was I was telling him ) and reengage with his kids and leave his wife then I would consider a friendship. I didn't see any friendship until then.

So, after that when I had to message him on business he stopped responding. He withholds communication as punishment. I had to take him to small claims court because his cc expired on the account last year and he refused to answer me. So, that was a year ago on last years games. I have not contacted him since, even though I had things I needed him to resolve.  This whole season has gone by and he has not asked for any. The post season he would have already needed to, but when I messaged him on the balance due I offered the 1 ticket we weren't using and that was the reply.

I still firmly believe it was her. He is just an extreme avoidant. I don't think after him not communicating for almost 2 years would he answer on that. What I was concerned with was covering myself legally. Answering back that

Respectfully, no tickets have been requested

Then leave it at that to cover myself legally. I do have him on recording stating he couldn't go to any games last year and we should go and enjoy and if we couldnt sell them. I think his wife wants to go, but I feel he is making excuses why he cant, because he hasn’t seen his kids in 3 years and the hames are our family history. He knows that would be the nail in the coffin with his kids and like I said, S32 is not going with her and he knows it .

He has to be a father without her. He has cant force a relationship they don't want. His wife only cares about her and her kids and I think she doesn’t want him reconnecting with his kids.

So, that why I thought I should respond with the simple response that if he had considered going he would have had to request tickets and I got no request.

*** so we go to half the games and I sell the other half that are his and credit the account. Thats not in the divorce. I do it to be fair. Playoffs however it would be splitting seats. I dont think I can sit with OW, but I would if I had to. Thats why the response was ridiculous, because no way does he want us face to face.

*** and, I have offered that we change our seats and split them into 2 and 3 in different locations so that this isnt a problem, but he didn’t want to do that. I also offered to completely take over the tickets and let him out and he also did not want to do that. That id why I think this is her responding.  Specially, since the email response is all about her going and not him responding at all about his son. It’s just not him. He does cruel and avoidant behavior covertly. He never ever mentions her to me and never refers to her as her wife.  So, like Treasur was stating. If it is her I am not feeling so safe communicating through that email anymore.

[OffRoad]

IMO, and take it as such, staying connected with something like this becomes an insane thing to do. If all you do is ask every year "Do you want any of the tickets" and are OK with either answer and can let it go, then fine. No drama. But unless you are capable of sitting with them both, or you are OK with them using two tickets and then no one who wants to hang with her wants to go,  the tickets should be divided to two separate areas. Period. You can trade who get 2 or three each year.

Doesn't matter who responded. Really it just doesn't. "Do you want ticket or tickets?" No, cool. Yes, cool. But if he is entitled to two, he should get two. Then everyone has to decide if anyone wants to sit with them.If each person in the family is entitled to one, then so be that.

Me? I'd take it to court to get full custody of said tickets, but that's me. If I've learned anything it's that staying linked makes it much harder to properly move forward.

JMO,  your mileage may vary. Heck, I'm no longer linked except by kids and I got decent home made peanut brittle for Christmas. Cool. I sent a Thank You back with children. Done. When I don't get any next year, won't care. It's very freeing. As a perspective.

[MadLuv]

Offroad-Oh, I agree and I have gave all those ideas. I am not working and broke my back and honestly don't need the expense of the games. The shame seems to be keeping him away. I think the only game issues are the playoffs. Other wise we are at different games if he chooses to go, but yes…. I stopped asking , because I’m not his mother and he wasn’t replying. I guess small claims court has them replying. His attorney nor him ever replied to my different suggestions on resolving the tickets. His attorney just said, if it makes you feel any better he doesn’t want to change anything he agreed to.

After consulting with higher powers I emailed him or them ( as you said I guess who cares)

Respectfully, no tickets had been requested. I put the ticket now up for sale, but with temps low it will be a hard sell if at all.

If you want to go to the championship game there are 3 tickets available. S32 and I are going. We have already booked flights, room and car, so it is to late for us to cancel.

I have offered and I’m done with it. I have a feeling he may request some next year and maybe that will get all this in some normalcy. I do think that I will print the schedule next year with the games available to him and send them by mail and have him check what games he wants and how he wants the tickets. To be honest the games are family and it was the one thing he hadn’t tainted by taking her and her girls. I wanted one thing that wasn’t tainted, but at this point I just dont care . I just want peace and not to deal with the insanity!!

[MadLuv]

Also, it is important to add that he has no relationship with his kids wither. He discarded us all. I think this would all be a mute point if he was still being a father.
I think the easiest solution is these 4 games are yours and these 4 our mine ( in total all 5 seats)  every other year each of us get to go to the playoffs totally. No sharing. That is what I am going to propose with a letter from my lawyer for him to respond to.

Thank you all so much. Having a vanisher with a highly controlling OW/wife is almost like dealing with a cult victim. Truly!!

[marvin4242]

Madluv it all makes perfect sense. I do want to ask if i may: does it seem maybe you are spending a little more emotional energy on this topic that is useful for you>

[MadLuv]

Hmmm, maybe? It’s an issue and I came here to maybe vent it out and continue to journal my issues in this process. Someone once told me to feel each pain and frustration and see it through. Dont let others tell you what is ok to feel and not. I want to figure it out and not brush it under the rug. Honestly everything about MLC is to much time and energy wasted. Yet we are all here after years. Who’s to say all of us after years arent still spending to much time and energy on this subject in general. You know?  So with that, YES. It’s too much time and energy. I agree!! 🤣

[marvin4242]

Thanks to be very clear I am in no way criticizing or commenting, it was just something posed as a question for you to think about. This place is great to vent, state, and even reflect on what is going on. I do it all the time. And honestly I had to work myself on this for a long time until it just became completely second nature, but it took a while. That is why I was asking.

The less energy you find yourself putting into the unstable crazy behavior of your MLCer ex the more energy you have for what is important, you and your kids.

[MadLuv]

Marvin… It was a little bit of a judgment or the question wouldn’t be posed. Personally, thats fine, because it takes each of us outside of our own MLC sitch to see what may be affecting us, even when we may not see it ourselves . It’s kind of like the LBS tough love ❤️ 😆

I also don’t come on here all the time anymore. This literally just happened a few days ago. So, since I haven’t had any communication from him in a year and 8 months I think anyone would worry a little on why now. What does it mean and be a little thrown off.  I honestly went NC to get out of all this and I like it that way. This last situation keeps coming back to make us communicate and never gets resolved no matter how hard I try. To be honest I think he likes that tether. I do not.

But, I love the little tough love replies. It always makes me dig deeper into what I am thinking and is it healthy. Is he still getting to me. What can I do about it if he is. So, thank you

This to shall pass. 🙏

[beyondblessed]

ML, it may be just me, but if you are tied to this agreement of sharing tickets, but him never wanting them, whether he's in agreement or not, I'd be finding a way to sever this agreement permanently because it's only keeping you tethered to him.  He has no access to you otherwise, and he certainly doesn't seem interested in these tickets or games anymore, so really it seems logical and much more convenient for you to petition to drop this arrangement and get tickets of your own with no attachment to him or her.  Let him get new season tickets for them, if including her is so important to him.  Problem solved and one less triangulation for you.

[MadLuv]

BB- I agree, but here is the deal. It’s a lot of money. 15k a year. So, I also am not willing to give that back to him. So, that is where the issue is. Each year the price increases also. He pays until he dies. So, I would be a fool to give back that kind of money and I am laid off and with a fractured back and he left me uninsured. -

This is where the issue is. I would love to stop all our agreements, but that would just put more money in their pocket. Money that I gave up a career for. That I saved for our retirement. While I have no insurance, she is driving a Mercedes and drenched in diamonds. That makes me not want to give it back.  Hopefully, he will just disappear for another 2 years. He does want to go, but he has felt guilt so he hasn't. I just have to see how this plays out. If he opts out of what I just offered then I don't have to think about it again until next season. If he wants to start bringing her than maybe finally we can just agree on games and post season finally. Get in a routine. It has always been him not communicating. Maybe he will start now? If he does we can settle this and move on with a more defined agreement.

Im not in my 30’s or 40’s or 50’s. He left me at retirement. It makes a huge difference. I just have to work through what I can handle. It’s been a pretty quiet year until last week. For the most part.

[xyzcf]

I just watched the Broncos get terribly beat by the Bills. Football brings back many good memories of what once was. I embrace these memories even though sometimes they rattle me, even after such a long time. We used to go to Buffalo and watch the Bills play, we had season tickets to the Broncos..those were good times.

Their actions are still quite bizarre at times and that throws us as well.

My therapist said something , that it's ok to be sad, but what is even more difficult is to be sad and feel alone...but we are not alone..others here can understand as we try to make sense out of the non sensible.

I understand that these tickets were something that you did together as a family, and you don't want the OW to spoil those memories as well. I too have moments where the OW's make me really angry, the life that once was mine is now theirs.

How can we ever stop spending emotional energy? I have tried, I have been in therapy, done the work, built a good life for myself..yet I still miss the life we once had. I could be wrong but perhaps those LBSers who are in other relationships, have found love again find it easier to let the past go...I don't know..just seems that way sometimes.

And then there are others who for whatever reason can be upset or engage in monkey braining about things...and sometimes that is not in our control.

Because I have chosen a different route in maintaining contact with my husband, I could ask him outright if I needed to about something like the shared tickets but what works for me, doesn't mean it works for others.

Just writing out some of what happens in our lives, even years later can be cathartic. You are trying to make sure that you are following the settlement laid out by the courts...sometimes you just can't win.

[MadLuv]

So true XY. I actually made our divorce agreement. My XH never hired an attorney and my attorney just wrote up what I asked. Of course at the time I thought we would stay on good terms and be able to work together. I had no idea
the depth of a double life he was living and hiding. His need to disappear rather than face it all. So now those agreements are becoming another pain in my side. I keep being civil and I think he tries to stay with what he agreed to, but she OW is starting to obviously feel some way about it.

If I was a guessing gal, my D33 having a baby and XH not being a part of it is starting to cause him some consequences. OW had a D27 had a GB last year and I am sure that he is now a reminder of his grandchildren.

I wish my XH wife/OW was just a normal person that we could all just get a long. I envy the fact you have some relationship with your XH. For all of you. I think its the best outcome for everyone if handled right. I tried for that, but OW is making it difficult for my XH to even have a relationship with his children and grandchildren.

I thought the Broncos were going to pullthat off until they didnt. They started out strong.
Thank you XY.

[xyzcf]

I thought the Broncos were going to pullthat off until they didnt. They started out strong.

I know! That first touch down so early in the game!!!

I wish my XH wife/OW was just a normal person that we could all just get a long. I envy the fact you have some relationship with your XH. For all of you

Each of us have different stories even though there are so many similarities. Although I know there are other women, they have all been kept deeply hidden. He doesn't live with any of them, didn't marry any of them and has never introduced anyone or even hinted that there was another woman to our daughter. I doubt I could be "friendly" if he was married to someone else. (being friendly does not mean that I consider him a friend).

I'll be with him for a third surgery in Feb, he stayed here at Christmas for 5 days and we'll all go together on a beach vacation in March as we have done for a couple of years. I tell myself whoever "she" is...how does she feel about his time spent with me? But then I can wonder all I want and I don't really have any clue of what he's up to.

Nobody prepared us for "this" and so we often just have to decide what works best for us..and as my therapist also told me, that can change from one day to the next.

I am sorry that you have to be reminded of the tickets every year. I feel that way each time I need to get out the divorce papers, recently to apply for Social Security...unfortunately, it's almost impossible to rid ourselves of them even if we want to (and I have not wanted to or I would have cut contact a long time agao), especially when there are children and grandchildren. The way they turn their backs on their children and grandchildren are evidence once again that it is not about us.

[beyondblessed]

BB- I agree, but here is the deal. It’s a lot of money. 15k a year. So, I also am not willing to give that back to him. So, that is where the issue is. Each year the price increases also. He pays until he dies. So, I would be a fool to give back that kind of money and I am laid off and with a fractured back and he left me uninsured. -

This is where the issue is. I would love to stop all our agreements, but that would just put more money in their pocket. Money that I gave up a career for. That I saved for our retirement. While I have no insurance, she is driving a Mercedes and drenched in diamonds. That makes me not want to give it back.  Hopefully, he will just disappear for another 2 years. He does want to go, but he has felt guilt so he hasn't. I just have to see how this plays out. If he opts out of what I just offered then I don't have to think about it again until next season. If he wants to start bringing her than maybe finally we can just agree on games and post season finally. Get in a routine. It has always been him not communicating. Maybe he will start now? If he does we can settle this and move on with a more defined agreement.

Im not in my 30’s or 40’s or 50’s. He left me at retirement. It makes a huge difference. I just have to work through what I can handle. It’s been a pretty quiet year until last week. For the most part.

 ML, thank you for clarifying your position, as I was not aware he was solely paying for these tickets.  That is a huge chunk of change to be dropping every year for something that his guilty conscience keeps him from enjoying.  Just more crazy to add to the already overflowing pot, I guess. 

His Owifey may seem to be living it up now, but it likely won't last forever.  These people are masters at pretending and showcasing every imagined success and highlight of their lives, but what none of us get to see are the scenes and clips that don't make the cut.  I think it's part of their deluded nature to work as twice as hard at presenting a false narrative when things aren't going well for them.

[MadLuv]

Coming up on 4 years divorced next week and my xsil posted she recently was in LV to visit her mom for her bday and see middle BIl and family. She who never wanted to meet OW and called XH ( her bil) weak. She posted. Pictures and in the background was XH and OW. LV was where we took our last wedding anniversary so it was a little jarring to see them standing in a place where we were. He also has been seeing a lot of his 2 brothers and family in the last 2 years. A family I had to pull teeth for him to see as he hated them all. It is just another thing that just makes you question if what he ever said was real or if he has now been so isolated that he is embracing and reconnecting with anything from his past . So, I guess I will probably unfollow x-sil also now as I dont need to see their bonding. Does me no good.

My D34 told me that in her cmas card he signed the card as his name and not Dad and he did the same on our sons card. Again, stating he wanted to see them, but no actions behind the words. She also said before she went on maternity leave that she went to the breakroom ( we all worked for the same company & she is the last to still be there) and employee called her to their table full and asked if she would tell her father how much the employees miss him ( he was fired 3 years ago next week the day before our 1 yr divorce anniversary) D34 said she could hardly contain herself with everyone not realizing he was fired and thinking he just left and thinking he is some great guy. She said,  you want me to tell my father you miss him? The lady said, yes. D34 said, I looked at her and in a raised voice said, I havent see THAT MAN in 3 years!!! She said, it felt good to just not care and let it out. So there is that….

[MadLuv]

So, I had the craziest thing happen and it really threw me off for a day or so. I got a email from our city parks and recs that the a father of one of the childrens memorial instruments in our musical playground wanted his child sign. We took them down, because all the instruments had been replaced and they did not match. The child was the grandchild of my XH asst day manager at his old job.

So, after 4 years of disconnection from that group and not knowing what they now knew or didn’t I was a little leary. However, she is classy and not a gossiper and so I felt it would all go well. I emailed her my phone number and she called me. I made arrangements to drop the sign off with her. We exchanged niceties and then she said the following

Madluv, I still can’t believe and match who I knew for decades with what I am hearing. I said, oh? Are there rumors and talking, because I wasn’t sure. Everyone thinks he is a great guy and I assumed they still do. She said, as soon as OWife transfer people started to piece it together. She said, that woman is nothing but troubles. She is a mess. She will take him for every penny he has. She thinks she is amazing and everyone should bow to her. She is a mess.

I was so shocker, because she is not a gossiper, but she seems very traumatized herself. She said, I can now looking back see some of the signs, but I guess I ignored or dismissed them because I held him to such a high standard. I couldn’t imagine he would do what he did and specifically knowing his kids work in the same building. She said, I felt so bad for them when he got fired. She said, ai was glad S32 quit. She said, I know D34 just had a baby so I haven’t seen her. I said, she just quit. She said, good.

She then said, I sometimes just think how did this even start? Like when did the switch flip? I replied, you and me both!!! I said, basically anyone that had an issue and came in his office he started some type of bond/relationship as their savior and it just seems it escalated. I said, in the middle of the #metoo movement!  I did tell her some of the ones I knew and that he had a 3 year unreciprocated relationship with. I said, he was literally in an escape fantasy world. She said, well I heard he doesn’t even live with his OWife anymore. I said, I know!!$ they are in different states. You can’t make it up. She said, maybe he is waking up. If he isn’t I am telling you she will be is Karma. I have been in this building for decades and she has been a problem the whole time. She is very difficult person.

Anyways… so interesting to hear that people are figuring it all out and gossiping and shocked. It was nice to get some real opinion of OWife as I truly have never seen her or met her in person. She did say that she herself has no contact with XH and doesn’t see any reason to ever reconnect with him know what she knows now. She just kept saying, I can’t believe the moral guy with such character is not that at all. I said, I know. Believe me. 30 years and kids. It’s hard to take it all in!

[MadLuv]

Little update and also a funny little story to share

In the last 6 months I started to get my XH bills for Internet and gas from our condo ( where OW and her daughter live) He lives in a house they bought in another state. Anyways, I don't know why it reverted back to a paper bill, but all bills originally came to our main home since the condo was only for his need to have a home in corporate location.

So, I l kept thinking it would resolve, but it never did. I emailed XH and explained I was getting them and could he please contact the companies and resolve it. I get an email back and it states “ Hello, we have tried to fix this but we need the email and sign on “  we??? Great!! Talking to OW.  I replied, I gave it to XH in 2020, but sure here it is.

She came back with “ I apologize. XH said he never had access to the email . I don’t understand why your getting these bills?”

Now, I am frustrated. I decide if ai have to have a conversation with her I am going to answer with a little time table truth dart.I reply,
“All bills came to our main home as the condo was only used once a month when XH had to be at corporate . Until November 2020 when we separated. I assume something changed to revert them back to the original send to address.
I gave XH a folder with a spread sheet of all sign ons, bills, accounts and numbers. His  SS card, birth certificate, home loan info. He has always had access to all.
Ultimately, it doesn’t matter. It just part of untangling of 30 years that was dismantled quickly in 90 days. Things will pop up”

She came back again, I KID YOU NOT!!!! She says, I got the folder. I see the spread sheets. There are some things missing. I still don't understand why you would ever get our bills there, but XH told me he would take care of when he gets home. I will make sure you do not get anymore communication or notifications “

So, whats funny is that I think all along she was told we were separated and I think she had been to the condo and thought that was only his and I never lived there. I know that I found an email in june 5 months before he left, so they were involved I believe most of 2020. So, my little truth darts on when we actually separated and that the condo was not his full time residence was new to her.

What is funny is she obviously is texting with XH while this is going on and after that he told her he would take care or it and I never heard from her again. He was not expecting her to communicate so much and he is so avoidant he let it happen until she asked to many questions . Whats funny is when I sent the folder to him years ago I put inside other things to show that we were together. Cards, also I drew on the mortgage papers a drawing with a house and hearts etc. Things that tied us together and showed there was a relationship. I had a feeling then that someone was in the picture . I dont think he ever went through it. Obviously!!

I got a little laugh out of the fact that the truth always come out. My replies to her were unemotional. Just facts, but is was very clear that she could not understand why the bills from the condo would be attached to my house. I think mr avoidant had to do some explaining.

Side note… today I got bills in the mail again. Saturday, I got a text that their internet was out. So, not sure why I am now also getting texts, but when OWife said  that she promised no more bills would come she lied.  I cant believe 4 years later and I can’t get him to handle the smallest of things to disconnect our lives and I feared after the chief email that I assumed was her this was just the start.  I should not have to communicate with her at all.  I don’t think he likes it either. 🙂

[Dragonfly33]

Hi Madluv, nice to read your updates here. I think it's best to just ignore his bills coming to your place. Or you could just have it forwarded to his address by the post office. Here where I live, we can inform the post office of the new address and everything under a name of that person who now lives in a different place will be automatically forwarded to the  new address until such time the other person informs the companies of the new address. They are given then a deadline. Then they stop forwarding the bills. I would also not waste time communicating with the OW. Just ignore her emails. Don't give them the satisfaction. Wish you a nice week.

[beyondblessed]

ML, oh what a tangled web they weave <insert huge eye roll>   They run so fast at first and have such a head start, only to fall flat on their faces, even years later.  Eventually all their lies come back to bite them.  Actions and consequences, oh well.

And, if anyone knows the satisfaction of a well placed truth dart, it's this girl right here.  Sometimes the petty just needs a place to go, so I totally get it.  If anything, I'm sure OW is questioning a lot of things right now,  and it truly wouldn't surprise me, if your xh was hiding even more things from her than just the bills lol   

[MadLuv]

Dragonfly- gosh, how I wish I could. My name is still on the bills. I transferred responsibility but he never took my name off them and now they wont remove me. He has to. If I forward mail all my bills would go to him. Hmmmmm, lol!!!

Beyond blessed- 😂 I didn’t want to communicate, but when she kept coming back at me asking I really could not resist.

Not sure if anyone remembers but her SIL is currently in court for assault with a deadly weapon. I have worked hard to remove myself from all connections to him on line by google search and contacting any site that had my name and address. Best thing I have done, but as long as his bills are coming here and the addresses link we will link.

This has gotten so crazy. As a survivor of home invasion rape I do not want a felon linked to me through my XH and his choices. Who knows if he will need money and who knows what narrative XH has told. He could come break in here and rob me. At this point nothing is beyond belief. If you would have told me any of this could be a reality 4 years ago I would have called you all crazy. We have all been there, but now the felony charge? I mean it’s just not what I thought was in the realm. Also, his sister is in jail being convicted for repeated assault against family members, the other sister filed charges against her moms boyfriend for theft. The  list goes on. It is a thug family.

I think you can see where my concern is. I am single and I just want to feel safe.

[Dragonfly33]

Oh sorry Madluv, I thought it was just his name. Insist on your xh to remove your name right away, you don’t want to be entangled in his mess. Can you request to these companies to remove it since you are divorced already? OW’s family sounds very messed up. MLCErs really know where chaos is. Looks like the chaos their going through attracts another chaos. Hope this will be resolved soon Madluv.

[MadLuv]

Thank you DF. I did call the companies first before I reached out to XH and they said he had to do it. Contacting him was not something I wanted to do.  I have just decided to circle his name on the bills and return to sender and see if they will do something in the billing department. Cant hurt to try

[MadLuv]

Today my D34 told me that when she visited her grandmother ( xh mother)  2 years ago that she told her that we were never a good match. We were a bad dynamic. That  the reason her son never wanted to see her was because our relationship was bad and  she thinks he didn’t want them to have to see that. 

She also told her that when I had cancer that they offered to come help and I refused to let them. That I just never wanted them around . Let me tell you.  I was hurt and shocked by this as first. My XH hated his mother. The only reason they had a relationship was because I forced it. So, now to be blamed for their disconnection is beyond. My cancer treatment I had radiation that others could not be exposed to. To say I refused is harsh. I think we just explained why they couldn’t. Just also seems bizarre to bring up, but  feels like deflection and blame like XH pulled things out of no where.

What I do find unacceptable is her dismissing our 30 year marriage to a our daughter and making it seem like a mistake. However, I feel I have more compassion for him now, because look why he is a mess??

My daughter said, “what else is she going to do. I think its pretty text book for a mother to not want to see the bad actions of her son “  D34 also said today. If someone asked me  why do I think my dad  is a good father  what would I say. She said” i think thats always how I viewed him, but when I think about answering it now I have nothing to substantiate why I saw him that way because there is nothing.

How sad. So, the day was a hard one, but after my initial feeling of rejection of my X-MIL I in reflection feel validated. I have compassion for my XH  and I feel there is some closure for me. I have tried so hard to help her son and this is the thanks I get? Blamed for his issues? No thank you. But, now he has reconnected with his core original family ( mil and brothers) , OW and her daughters and one
step grandson and none or his blood kids or grandkids. He will never grow or face himself with these enablers and he has lost so much. 

I do worry about his future because the only ones that truly cared about his mental health he is disconnected from. Out kids and grandkids have to see everyone in his family differently. We already lost my youngest daughter to cancer and now they lost XH and his entire family as my kids refuse now to be connected to them due to their lying for him.  This journey has been a long road and clarity can bring healing, but also so much more loss.

I have to say that this truly is another piece that helps with closure.

[Treasur]

I’m not sure if ‘sorry’ is the right word for you or your daughter as you feel it has given you some closure, but still. Some things are just ick and unpleasant, aren’t they?

Well done you for having the hard-earned skills to see so clearly that MiL comments are not about you at all. It’s an odd experience when someone shows us so clearly the window through which they view the world…obviously this is the one she has chosen, doubtless for a variety of reasons. Odd too that she would choose to voice these thoughts out loud to her granddaughter….i wonder what (in her mind) she was trying to achieve by doing that? And it’s rather nasty, isn’t it? Few children would respond well or feel good listening to that, even as adults. And indeed it’s exactly the kind of thing that would lead one to want to spend less time not more with someone, isn’t it? It’s a kind of karma really…..

As it happened so long ago, do you know why your daughter raised it in conversation now? Sounds as if she might be going through some of her own sorting of wheat from chaff as most of us find ourselves doing.

[MadLuv]

Good question, Treasur. It is no secret that D34 and I have had a hard road since XH departure. She viewed her Dad with amazingly rose colored glasses and it’s been a long process for her to start to see him more clearly. After she hadn’t seen her father for a year she sought connections with other family trying to fill that void. One was driving to go stay with her grandmother. I think she asked her many questions about her Dad trying to understand him better. Her grandmother ended up lying to her on that visit.

She didn’t find these lies out until last year when X-BIL and family came with family and stayed with me for a visit. That visit exposed X-BIL was lying also that he had reconnected with XH and met his OWife. So, as I journalled earlier D34 reached out to X-MIL and told her she was hurt for her lying to her and X-MIL never responded to her. Cant imagine!!! But… it showed  D34 that  XMIL was a weak avoidant as well as XBIL and sadly her Dad. I think this past year she has  had to come to term that his side of the family is not who she thought they were.

This past year has been very healing for her and I. She was so mad for so long about this divorce and her Dad’s vanishing act. I think like we all slowly come to terms with the cards we have been dealt and we reflect and we see things as they really are. Healthily we see things we could have changed and we grow from that, but we also see that our faults are normal and this kind of discard is not normal. So, I just think she is coming to her own realizations and also that she feels more safe with time telling these things now, because I am also more healthy to handle it. She told me many things about that visit, but I think she knew this would be hurtful to me. I think it was hard for her to hear from her. I think it had to make her revaluate her own reality as she did not see her Dad and I’s relationship that way.

When she was her most cruelest to me I told her that I was not a perfect mother, but I tried to be. That if she can really look back at her life she will see that I was the sole orchestrator of her childhood. So, yes. If mistakes were made they were made by me, but that she will see that I was always there. I was the room mother, the care giver, the  block mother etc. her father was always there, but he just never initiated things as a father. I kept thinking he would mature into himself, but he just really always struggled to even find himself.

So yesterday  when she stated “ Everyone has flaws but if someone were to ask me how was he a good father to you like what do you remember positively like I remember having a positive opinion of him because that's what I wanted but if I look at things from an outside perspective there really wasn't a reason for that”
I think it was a clear indication that she has done just that. I think she has seen both our flaws now and can appreciate that I have been the one consistent in her life and maybe she has been a little harsh with me.

I think there is a lot more she is holding in, because his actions has been insane and his family now are showing who they are and she yesterday deleted them all from her social media. She found out some other lies and she said there is no point trying to be family to people that are enabling her father to abandon them and to lie for him.  I hate this for my kids. I think after 3 years of not seeing their father and having to watch him take her and her adult daughters on vacations and celebrate holidays and her grandsons first bday when he has never met the daughter she just had, his own granddaughter has been a huge wake up call. I think she thought when she had her baby her father would finally show up. He hasn’t.  I think I am now trusted to share all her hurts on the situation and  now I can handle it because my emotions are more regulated. I told her yesterday that I dont think her Dad is a bad man, but that he never fully matured and his core self doesn’t exist and so when life gets tough he truly can’t handle it .I think she is trying to accept that her father is gone and it may be for good.

Our children have to go through the same path as we do when the MLCer vanishes. It is  helpful for me to recognize now the stages she is in leading to her acceptance of the situation because I have been through them.  She was in denial for a long time and now she is able to see things as they are.  I think after 4 years this year is going to be our most healing. I just continue to try and find empathy in the situation for XH so that if he ever resurfaces for them that I am giving them a more empathetic view to accept him back. It just seem more unlikely now that he will and his family is also gone now. I just never saw it playing our this way.

[MadLuv]

On X-MIL and why she chose to tell D34 these thing. What was the motive? I think she wanted to blame me instead of seeing her son being flawed and that may be partly due to her. She has a history of as soon as her sons relationships breakup that she has nothing nice to say. I have seen it many times. One son has been married 3 times. I told XH when he left me that I knew his mother would do this and he said, “ that’s what I am afraid of as well” so, why am I shocked.  What I think she got wrong is that her and I were never a match and our dynamic was not good. She is cold and her father discarded her own mother and then vanished. Spending most his time with his new wife and her adult children after 30 years as well. He didn’t completely disappear, but his time was not given much to X-MIL and her and her brother have no relationship at all. I think she see’s her son is repeating what her father did and she blamed her mother for her dad, so she is avoiding trying to see her part in all this.

[forthetrees]

On the one hand it is so disappointing to see the in-laws support all the deceit on the part of the MLCer but on the other hand one should not be surprised as the in-laws are the FOO that helped create the MLCer´s world view. I suppose that bottom line the MLCer is part and parcel of a family dynamic and when you partner up with someone, you are connecting to a family system not just one person. The reciprocal is happening as well in regards to the LBS and his/her family dynamic. Hind sight shows that knowing more about FOO and family dynamics would prevent a lot of future heartache, but also would tank the marriage rates even further if we all knew just how fragile someone´s coping skills were.

I have high hopes that your daughter will continue to seek you out and include you in family events and want you to be a close grandma to her kids. To cut her some slack, imagine how hard it is to accept that your dad is basically a douchebag- it means readjusting her lifelong view of him, her relationship with him and likely made her doubt her own judgement- that´s a lot to process. At its core it makes you wonder if you´ve been living a lie or at least lying to yourself. Ah, the MLC gift that just keeps on giving.

[MadLuv]

Forthetrees, yes! I think we both are cutting each other slack. We have had so many deep conversations and I think she has been so much better on including me and inviting me. I am very close to the grandchildren and I think she appreciates that more than she has before, because she knows it’s not a given now. I have high hopes that life will continue to show us a path to appreciate who we are and what remains , even with XH and family tainting what could have been.

What is crazy is that XH did all this damage and not one member of my family views our relationship as XMil does. They are still sad that their favorite couple, uncle, aunt and family they looked up to have dismantled. They are shocked at what he has done, but they still love who they thought he was.

[MadLuv]

Fragile here so tread lightly. I continue to get bills and emails and they seems to be increasing.last night I also got text about my XH condo internet being out of service. I  texted my XH on it and while I texted I also told him I had been accumulating items of him I found and asked if he wanted them sent or thrown away. He read with. No reply. Hours later I get a snarky reply. Clearly not from him, but not disclosed. An interchange incurred between his OWife and myself that was not necessary. I kept trying to pull it back and be kind, but she kept playing the WE card and dont start drama. I told her I had nothing to say to her..

Anyways. She basically told me to thrown anything away that I found of his, even though he had told me that he wanted anything I found 2 years before. So, I am going to take this as a final release of my responsibilities to give him anything of his things from now on. If it hadn’t been videos, pictures and awards he earned I would not have even accumulated then. I have donated and thrown a lot of his stuff away.

I can’t believe he allowed her to take his phone and reply for him and be nasty. I was married to him for 30 years and never once replied on his phone even when I found he cheated .  He is so far removed from who he was and  I just don't see him ever coming  out of this.  I had hope he would reconnect with his lids someday, but ai just don't see that happening.  I’m just baffled still that he is married to someone so unbelievably rude, controlling, materialistic and  narcissistic and he gave up his kids for that.

One of my friend said, I feel bad for you because you have no finish line. I think that is whats hard for us in this journey. The craziness on top of everything else gives you no true finish line.  It’s been 4 1/2 years since BD. I feel better. More calm, but I dont have unresolved friendships. I am still friends with all boyfriends I ever dated. So, to feel so disrespected by a husband of 30 years that I shared all my tragedies with and tried so hard to help continues to be  a hard pill to swallow.

One thing tonight did show me was who he married for sure. Who he still is now ( weak and avoidant) and that I never have to reach out again. Hopefully she doesn’t get in his head on alimony, because we have 9 more years to go. We also still have the NFL tickets and they still haven't asked to go and I don't see them reaching out to me now for them.

 Somehow I just see her doing something and it makes me uneasy.  When my XH asst manager told me that she was a trouble maker and will be his karma. I believe it. I just hope she  isnt going to push him to affect me more financially, because she appears to fully running the show.

Kind of all over the place because Im not used to those kind of interactions. She was mean and then turned it on me. Said I was passive aggressive. Just nothing made sense. So, I cant imagine how his mind is handling her, because I found her to be completely controlling and over the top. 

It’s crazy because I’m mad and I feel sorry for him at the same time. What a mess he is in. Truly!!  But, his brother said he is really happy, so who knows if it is his mask or his delusion.  I just know I dont want to engage in that again.

[Treasur]

I am very sorry that you had this experience. I remember having something similar years ago, the last time I had any contact with my xh. And I understand that it provokes a messy set of emotions.

I think, after decades, it takes most of us quite a while to let go of some of the basic expectations that come with being a We. Or indeed accepting that there is a new We in town that seems to work differently, or that most likely that We has been involved in previous interactions when we thought we were simply communicating with a h/xh. But often that is true, usually for longer than we thought, and it sort of adds insult to injury to have this unwelcome and unchosen person inserted into our life in any way. It can even feel a bit frightening, can’t it?

Please do not waste your compassion on your xh; this was his choice and as someone said, the effects will be his karma. It is his circus, of his creation, not yours - and it says nothing at all about you. And her nasty opinions? Well, consider the source is always a good life principle lol. It’s a practical reality I think that people who have affairs - both spouses and ow/om - have poor boundaries, and no respect for them, or they could not do what they do. And perhaps a reminder that these kind of folks can still make us part of a mental virtual Karpmann triangle even when we are unaware and uninvolved.

The only solution I found was to accept it as it was and go NC with these kinds of people completely. Bc that was all I could control. I don’t know how big your fear about ongoing alimony is, or how willing you feel to deal with that fear, but it is not an unreasonable one. I wish I could say it was, but it isn’t…and it is reality that the form of ypur alimony is a kind of ongoing link. Have you talked to a lawyer about your options for changing it to create something that is more of a clean break kind of deal? I understand why you might not want to do that, that it might feel like going backwards, but living with some kinds of fears is also not easy, is it?

Your xh chose the path he chose. That was always about him, not about you, my friend. And tbh if someone does these kinds of things and behaves in these kinds of ways, although it takes a goodly while, one does get to a point of expecting a duck to be a duck. It’s just hard to swallow after so many years, to accept that they are not very good quality people and that we would be wise not to infer good intent towards us. Even if that makes no sense at all to us. Bc it doesn’t, does it? I have never understood I it, as I suspect you don’t, why these folks cannot behave with some level of decency and respect…but it is rare that they do….and our lack of comprehension just says more about what kind of people you and me are, I suspect 😝

I hope today is a better day

[MadLuv]

Thank you Treasur- I needed that. I am sorry you experienced something similar. I wish I could change the alimony. Maybe get a lump sum and done, but it is to hefty for that. I wish I could just tell him to stick his money where the sun doesn’t shine , but I can’t and that would be stupid.
 
I do think I will speak with my lawyer just to see what she thinks if anything I need to worry about, because after NC for 2 years except finances once last year the situation seems to have escalated. Maybe it’s because I did cut his friendship off and went NC, but it is baffling after all these years that she is replying now and it is recent, because I can tell immediately when its her.

Maybe she isn’t feeling as secure and is seeing her own red flags ( even though she is her own red flag)🚩 . But she wants his money and no one is interfering with her good fortune!!  You are absolutely right that they are not my kind of people. You are who you surround yourself with and a broken man teaming up with a broken desperate woman is a bad combination.

When talking to a friend last night I said, how did we get here? I tried to be as kind as I could. I could nor would allow anyone to do that to him. Even now. How did  he get where he is and how could I have been so wrong about him. I gelt he abused me for a decade with a double life not exposed and now I feel he allowed her tp abuse me. I guess when you have sunk to the bottom Of the barrel you have to find anyway to validate why you are there. She enables his narrative and I guess that what keeps him going. 

I’m glad I am me. I really am.

[MadLuv]

Well, things took another bad turn. OWife texted my D34. Told her to tell me to stop messaging them. That she respects her decision , but I keep telling them that there father is not trying to be in their life ( I actually said who doesn’t see their children and grandkids after losing a child once) She also told her that they didn’t know she had a baby. Which I never told them, but now my daughter thinks I did.

My daughter  messaged OWife back and told her not to tell her what to do and she is not my mother and we all Needed to grow the F up .

I hate this turn has happened, because my daughter and I were finally in a good place and I have no idea why this OWife felt it necessary to do that . I also dont like when my daughter lashes out  and then blocks me from responding.  I feel
i don't have a voice.

This situation just seems never ending. Damned if you do damned if you don't, but you can go from feeling like you are going to survive it all And you feel good about yourself to literally hours later feeling like you wont survive this round of set backs. 

[Treasur]

I am so sorry. Not surprised but sorry (see my earlier comment about disordered folks, boundaries and virtual triangles 🙄)

Two separate issues as I read it….ow first….i’d encourage you to block ow and xh and do everything you can to make it very hard for either of them to contact you directly again. And that includes you not contacting them of course…anything about NFL tickets or belongings should go in a written email or via your lawyer. You can’t control others actions but you can choose to move away from them. And if you are reluctant to do that, take your time to consider why and how contact of any kind benefits you.

And daughter? Well, you can’t control others only remind that you did not invite ow to ctc her, that you are not responsible for ow’s behaviour, that you value your relationship with her and would never have disrespected her wishes by telling ow/xh about the new small one. That it’s not ok and you have blocked both ow/xh from contacting you again (if you decide to do that)That it’s ok if daughter wants to talk about any anger she has with you, but it’s not fair to be angry at you for ow’s’ actions and that you have found yourself wondering if creating conflict is a win for ow, so essentially playing her game. Then leave it be, let daughter simmer down and wait for her to come to you when she’s ready….

Above all, remind yourself that it is probably no more than a hiccup in a long mother/daughter relationship and it will pass through like a bad meal bc these things usually do. (And I like the idea of thinking of drama-seeding ow as being like a bad meal that gives you diahorrea!)

[MadLuv]

You’re so right, treasur
. I blocked them on both email and text. This was the final straw to know that there is no way to make things civil.  D34 is explosive and she tends to be very mean and dramatic when she is. She does not make it a safe place to share your own feelings. I can usually let that go, but sometimes the hits are so deep they start to become a open wound that wont heal.  I dont know where we go from here. Her controlling needs of everything is a lot. 

I have heard horror stories on OWife and of course she was a problem employee sent to XH to help, but this is the first time I have been involved with her crazy. I cant for the life of me think that reaching out to my D34 was anything other then to turn the knife in me one more turn.  She is just nastier than I could have imagined. So, it’s even more mind blowing he is with her.  Just still unbelievable!

[Treasur]

Well done on the blocking. Sometimes we just need to move away from nasty stuff, don’t we?

I’m sorry about your daughter…I think many of us know what it is like to live with a thinner skin after trauma. I don’t always like that but I accept it and adjust around it now and then.

[xyzcf]

This situation just seems never ending. Damned if you do damned if you don't, but you can go from feeling like you are going to survive it all And you feel good about yourself to literally hours later feeling like you wont survive this round of set backs.

As much as we would like to think that their existence doesn't upset us anymore, I will confess that several years later, even though we have somewhat of  regular and peaceful contact with one another, there are things he does that causes me to come unglued. I have learned to reset myself quite quickly and life goes on...until the next time.....Most of all, I accept that this is who he is, this is the way my life is and try to let go of how it once was and how the heck did it come to this?

Try not to beat yourself up...they can take way too much space up in our heads.

I continue to get bills and emails and they seems to be increasing.last night I also got text about my XH condo internet being out of service. I  texted my XH on it and while I texted I also told him I had been accumulating items of him I found and asked if he wanted them sent or thrown away.

You have absolutely no obligation to let him know that you are still getting these things or to ask him what he wants you to do with them.

You can choose to 1) throw anything that comes to your house away. 2) Mark them with "return to sender" 3) forward them to his known address. 4) Contact the email sender and tell them that this address is not connected to the account...give them the new email address for your husband.

But really, as long as there is nothing that will impact your credit or has your name on it, just trash them.

I hate this turn has happened, because my daughter and I were finally in a good place and I have no idea why this OWife felt it necessary to do that . I also dont like when my daughter lashes out  and then blocks me from responding.  I feel
i don't have a voice.

You relationship with your daughter has been difficult and I am really sorry because that would be so hard to deal with. But I will make this observation...your daughter's actions of lashing out at you and blocking you are not OW's fault. Your daughter owns her actions towards you..she alone is responsible for lashing out and blocking you.

Why she continues to do this, could be due to many many reasons....but regardless of what OW is or is not (and I think if you could let go of any attempt to understand why either OW or ex h do the things they do...as Ursa is so fond of saying...trying to understand is like trying to taste the color green) your daughter is an adult and she continues to hurt you...as we often have said, hurt people hurt people.

I hope you are feeling better, these trials continue...because there is major trauma to ourselves and our families that might never completely disappear.

[MadLuv]

Treasur- that we do
XY- my info is on the bills. He never has taken them off.  The ones that are off  is because 4 years passed and  they required him to confirm me and he didn't because he never changed from my email either. Just an avoidant in all ways.
But…. After yesterday I am just going to shred and hope for the best. I will contact the credit cards to remove myself. Only 2 remain. I took him off mine first month. The utility bills are the main issue. Im just going to let it go. You know you have such a good scenerio and still you have issues, so  it just is what it is. The lack of empathy and disrespect will always haunt me.

[xyzcf]

It is such a hassle to get our name off something like the utilities! Should not be so difficult, especially since we are legally divorced.

Very frustrating and exhausting.

You know you have such a good scenerio and still you have issues, so  it just is what it is. The lack of empathy and disrespect will always haunt me.

I wanted to reassure you that what you are feeling is normal.....the lack of empathy and disrespect, although I am not sure they are aware that they are so disrespectful...their minds are really messed up and we get caught up in what we think should just be a normal discussion and just take care of it and instead becomes some kind of drama .....as we often said...MLC, the gift that just keeps on giving.

You are doing all you can madluv....be kind ad gentle with yourself.

[marvin4242]

MadLuv I really struggled with whether to post this or not, but decide I would. And I really am trying to thread lightly, but I am hoping you can take this as it's intended.

I want to echo what Treasur and xyzcf have already said so well, but add my voice hoping it may cut through. Watching from afar is seems you are somewhat deluding yourself, in that yes there are factual elements where you get information or bills from you XH, but is that really the reason you feel you need to relay, or collect his belongings? If you looked carefully inside is there any pain, hope, loss, sadness that is keeping you indirectly attached to him? His relationship with his children are theirs, it may be very hard to watch but at this point it's between them. And your daughter is more than old enough to decide things, to choose things, and maybe is responsible for her own well being?

Only reason I ask is because hopefully you can find yourself to a place where the actions of disordered people (your XH, the OW) no longer impact you and YOUR well being. So you need to do what you need to do for yourself (including being kind and gentle, but also taking an honest inventory of your own) to protect yourself and let go. Being kind and gentle and being honest and self protective are not mutually exclusive.

[MadLuv]

Marvin - I had to take a good hard look at myself and my own motivations. I had to not reached out to XH in 2 years, so what made me want to?? i was at a baseball game of my grandsons and my D34 XH ‘s wife and family and of course my daughter and her husband and I were there. We all got a long. There breakup ( she cheated on him) was a disaster!!! They hated her . They hated us. It caused so much issues with XH and I because they all worked together. Even the affair partner.

So, time passes and things were good and I thought. This is how it should’ve been. Also , D34 told me GS10 came into her room crying that he missed  his pops. So, you put all that together and the bill issue and it gave me an opportunity to FIX. Try to build a bridge. It was a mistake. A huge mistake. I let my empathy and fixer mode distort the fact that he has shown nothing fixable.

What I have realized is that I have to tell D34 that she can’t tell me about her pain from her dad or GS10, because it then becomes an added pain and I can work through mine, but I get angry at theirs. Also, I feel responsible because if he still loved me or I was enough they would still have him!

So in short. I let my empathy get in the way. He is no better. Its not my job to fix and I need to not hear about how he affects any of them anymore, because I didnt cause this.

Hope this translates correctly as Im typing on my phone and I always find that it doesn’t many times. I think as bad as yesterday was it was a blessing. I needed that one last kick in the rear to stop trying to think he is in there. Nothing  is showing he is and OW reaching out to D34 and telling her to tell me to stop reaching out accusing Xh of not wanting a relationship with them was insane.
There is no doubt XH is telling his current wife he is trying and his kids are not receptive. Not true. They need more than a yearly xmas gift and a text.

Just so much clarity came through. Your right Marvin in many ways.

[Treasur]

No advice, ML, I just wanted to say how brave it was of you to be so honest about the triggers that led you to reach out and then find yourself in a weird s$itshow…. I can almost guarantee that your brave eye will chime with someone else quietly reading along and give them their own courage to make a shift in something, so thank you.

It’s pretty uncomfortable for most of us to look so closely to our own side of the street, but usually in my experience it creates a healthy shift in perspective that has been brewing quietly.

Your post also made me think about those little moments of ‘tristesse’ we can feel when the world is not as we wish it were. It’s a kind of momentary yearning, isn’t it? For a past time or place, for a kinder world, for a sort of innocence maybe. A oretty normal human kind of feeling. I have certainly felt it and always associated it with a different spin of grief and loss.

[Trustandlove]

You got there faster than I did, ML.  I tried to keep my former H in the loop for many years; I did have much younger children so that makes a difference, but still. 

I remember when I decided "enough", and decided that I would no longer contact him for anything, even if one of the children landed in the hospital.  I did end up having to have some arms-length contact because there was still paperwork to do, but that was when I came to the conclusion that, process or no process, the person I had believed he was just didn't exist, and, like you say, he shows nothing fixable. 

Now I had experienced many more times when he seemed to be somewhat himself, sometimes for many months or even over a year at a time, which is partly why I did what I did; the divorce was also not final, so that also played a  role, but still. 

That in itself hurt for a while; but it was necessary.  My kids still feel the effects; as I've written here before two have given up as well at this point; one is on the fence.  So I'm still angry about how it affects them, and yes, how incredibly unfair it all is on me.

But then I dust myself off and get on with it, as you have shown you do as well.

And I agree, very brave to look it all in the face and call it what it is.  This is crap any way you look at it.

x

[marvin4242]

ML thank you truly for sharing, it is so helpful to all of us. It is hard for us (and me) to try to look inward to find peace and solutions but as you said perfectly sometimes we get a chance to do it when we get hurt, yet again. Trust me I have done similar things for different reasons over the years.

Empathy is an incredibly important thing, but sometimes it is misplaced. I would say redirect the empathy to yourself, you deserve it a lot more.

[MadLuv]

Thank you Treasur, Trust and Marvin- I appreciate the comments, wisdom and the support.

Funny (in a non funny way) in my S34 exchange that once again put us on hold, she said “ I don’t know if your drinking, but your actions are unforgivable and you need to go back to therapy . You are never holding yourself accountable”

I feel all I do is reflect and hold myself accountable, for me a d what others do to me. I also have allowed so much disrespect from her and sometimes I feel the mistakes she thinks I make when it comes to her comes from trying so hard to please her and make her accept me. To lesson her burden s and pain. That also I believe comes from the aftermath of accepting so little from XH in the last years. It can ALL come from being beaten down and not feeling accepted.

I have tried to explain to D34 this many times. I may jusr share my journal on my thoughts to see if she can see it more clearly, but she has often said, I dont care what you thought, it doesn’t matter what your intentions were…these a fundamental things I dont agree with. 

So, I also wanted to share that sometimes the after math of trauma can lead to us not being our best selves in other interactions. That we may acceot less and take more than we deserve on many levels after if we don’t recognize that we have been damaged and its ok to not be ok.  But we don't have to accept something that further damages us, even when it comes to others we love.

A friend told me that has known me for 50 years “ your daughter is abusive to you”  my sister had an interaction with D34 that said almost brought for to self harm.  It’s hard as a mother to  not know how to help someone you love and that seems in most ways to be fine, but at any moment can have violent outbursts. I’m trying to accept that I may have to limit my interactions with D34 to be more surface level, because sharing more can become a deep pain later when she has these mini meltdowns.

These moments are also so hard when you no longer have your spouse around to support you.

[marvin4242]

Reading what you wrote something occurred. Have you gone to therapy at any point in this process and/or is it an option? I don’t mean because what your daughter said. Rather it may be very helpful to you and (counter intuitively perhaps) for your daughter if you worked on strengthening your personal boundaries. It is understandable to sometimes lose one’s boundaries and to not take care one’s own needs when we are putting too much energy into trying to help others. And strangely it doesn’t help, and leads to pain and potential hurt.

[MadLuv]

I did. I went directly into therapy a year after XH left and went until I was laid off from work. My therapist actually told me to step away from my daughter as she was not allowing rationale two way communication. I also asked my son and daughter to go to therapy with me and XH. XH agreed to go but it ended up being the day he got fired(he was marrried I did not know) so not sure how that would have went, but both kids then also agreed to go and then he really started to be more reclusive.

I know the situation is dire, but there really is no  resolution to have except that you live in daughters control and rules or these things happen. She is constantly telling me she has PTSD over her father and so this is why we are here. What is crazy to me is when he left she just said, people change etc. She really didn’t have any empathy for me and no real issue with him and his actions, until he turned on her. Now, he is mentally ill and who does this.

She also has told me that societal norms are that its acceptable for a man to walkaway from his kids, but not a mother, so its hard for her not to be influenced by that. That was disappointing also. She is a very opinionated gal  who is obviously very controlling on her own boundaries , so to hold me up to higher standards than her father was interesting to me.

I have also talked about her history of issues with people . She gats mad and cuts people off. She has had fights with her past in Laws and current inlaws. She recently told me they are mad because her husbands parents went on vacation instead of giving money to her husband towards his college bills that they originally agreed to pay. He has been put of college for over a decade. Dont think they are paying it.

Then she complained that her husbands vehicles radio stopped working and she felt bad they couldn’t fix it, but he got a bonus and she bought a $600 painting of a horse for her fanily room wall. Her husband has acknowledged that he is also avoidant and through my XH he knows he has to be more vocal and is trying to be more open and communicative. However, he has high blood pressure and the drs cant figure out why except stress. So, I dont think he is being as open as he needs to be with her and its taking a toll. His XW was mentally ill and he became very unhealthy until finally leaving.

There is just so much happening with her and her past and current situation. Ahe is very controlling . She and OWife and OW daughter all worked for  same company and boss. So, they knew she had a baby, because she was a manager over them. When she quit after having a baby did it not become common knowledge. Also, she has the baby pubically on her fb page as her cover picture.
She told XH mother and brother to not tell XH she was pregnant or she had a baby. I never have .

What brought her to tell me to get therapy and ask if I was drinking  was I said in the interaction with OWife “ who loses a child and  doesnt see his kids or grandkids” so, OW reached out to daughter and told her they didn't know she has a baby. They knew. She wasn’t really hiding it., but my plural
On grandkids was not a disclosure and thats a reach to say I told them when she told me not to. They haven't seen them or had communication in 3 years. My son could have had a kid.  But… truly the plural was not even about her having 2 kids. It was just a natural typing after saying kids to also plural grandkids.

So, that is what she is mad at. I acknowledged her being mad, but you know she cant control everything. I have never had communication with OW until recently and it obviously was not good for me. I understandably was shaken and I should have stepped away and not responded. I wish I had. I did not lose control or have any major communication , but I regret any communication. I dont thinks after almost 5 years of no communication with OW and 2 years with XH that one moment of  a reaction to being unexpectedly confronted  says I must be drinking or need therapy. It was an over reaction by her and cruel. She knows I rarely drink. Only events. 

Sorry, I know that was a long response but her insinuation that Im unhinged or something was more to hurt me than her concern or actual feelings that I need help. She just likes to go for the jugular when she is mad.

[MadLuv]

I also want to take the opportunity while on this to say
I am always and will always disclose my true and full story. Many dont because it’s easy to be judged. It is always easy to blame the mother or parent for a childs imbalance or issues. Heck, we do it here. We say it’s childhood issues that cause these MLC, so thats why when I  talk about my D34 I know some will look at it and think it’s me. No one is a perfect parent, but her issues are not from
My parenting, but more her anxious and controlling personality reacting to a terrible divorce and loss of a father.

I have not been perfect in all this. I have had times of  unbalance. I am not now, but I have been in dark places and I knew to seclude during those times. With that said,  my XH extreme hiding of his life for 10 years while living a double life, hiding  a marriage flor almost a year and his exit from kids life has been a lot to take on top of the BD.

We do the best we can and I have never not been there for my kids. My D34 were very close before she had her affair and her father leaving. I truly think and I may be wrong, that she is so mad at her dad now and his decisions and mot being who she thought he was, but also maybe she is reflecting on her own affair now and has some need to spin the narrative to resolve in her own mind her lack of judgement.  But Im not a therapist. Im just a flawed human like everyone else. But I constantly want to be better. To take accountability when I am not.

I have so many reach out to  thank me for being so forth coming and honest because they cant. So, if I do look like the bad parent from
The outside I will take it and use it to see in any way I need to do more.

[beyondblessed]

ML, I'm no therapist either, but I kind of feel like there's a huge elephant in the room here, and it's your D34's own affair and indiscretions.  I mean absolutely no disrespect and am only going by what you said, but she has a lot of unprocessed baggage of her own to deal with, and what she said to you sounds a lot like the projective garbage a person in crisis would say to deflect personal responsibility.

[MadLuv]

BB- I totally agree. All our issues started then. Everyones indiscretions ( to say it lightly) seem to be what I am paying for.  I find it so odd that everyone being unkind to me in this terrible situation are those that stepped away from their moral compass. Yet, I can’t make any mistakes, none. Even when reacting to a surprised interaction  by the affair partner that helped break up ky marriage and family. In all honesty it’s truly surprising that anyone handling this situation is able to stay sane. It really does take constant work, self motivation, improvement, reflection, pep talks to ones self…….yet we still are only human. One thing my daughter will not have to worry about again is any errors with my XH.  I have seen enough and lived through enough. It took this final bang, but it was a big shot!!

[titleholder]

Pfff ML, a lot of things are happening in your life but I think you pointed out the most important thing in which I totally agree:

Im just a flawed human like everyone else. But I constantly want to be better. To take accountability when I am not.

This is what makes the differences and what a lot of people are incapable of. They pretend to be perfect and avoid every ounce of accountability by walking away or simply not talking about the issues that are there. You're doing that, and that's what's most important! You're there for your childeren, you don't shy away from the hard subjects and that's sometimes hard for people who like to avoid, but atleast you're honest!

[MadLuv]

Thank you so much title.  I do have a bit of a $htiz $how going. This to shall pass. The damage will remain, but I just have to step away. I am reminded of Nah and her situation where her daughter took her XH side and they truly have not much more than an occasional text message relationship. It happens. She remains close to her son as do I.  Or that was the last I remember.  NAH has a great book on amazon if anyone hasn’t read it. “He never said a word”  everyone on here should read .

I just want to thank everyone here. I am 4 1/2 years out from
BD and although it seems that life is in chaos it is more due to what he is doing to his adult kids than me. I really have removed myself and it’s unfortunate that his extreme avoidance and who he has picked as his soul mate is disguised as his savior when she is in fact his destroyer.

I wanted to bring my thoughts on the OW /OM and the affects as I touched briefly on Amazing loves page.  For those that don’t recognize their spouse or Xspouse the OW/OM while in the affair and after change them. As any relationship does.

Since I was in this situation and canceled a divorce to try again I would like to add that when someones attention has turned to another it changes them. Human interaction changes people, so even if the affair stops that person has changed due to that relationship and it makes it even harder to not suspect that something is still off, so of course it has to be that when in fact your spouse has just changed some. In my case my XH did not stop. So my intuitions were correct, but he also changed as a human and not for the better.

This kind of betrayal changes everything, not just the relationship, but who they become. And your gut feeling is normally spot on. If you stay and you keep trying to no avail  it’s so painful.  When your searching for hope to rebuild and you only get met with more damage.

Losing a person you thought would be your forever is hard. Not recognizing who they become is harder and  realizing they are hurting you which seems purposefully makes you question your entire life with them. It makes you question yourself.

Also, I can remember and still do if being honest, wonder how they live with all they have done and do. Of course their is avoidance, rewriting history, enablers, changing the narrative, but I really don’t think they do as time goes by. We take the hit early and they as life settles take it later.

I will say that in my XH field he was with a very large corporation and climbed the ladder and was very high up when getting fired a year after our divorce after 35 years. That showed that new relationship was not saving him at all. He is with a new very large company and is just a normal manager. A night manager at that. At 59 working unbelievably long hours. 3 years and he moved for them. He should at the very least be running a building as the main manager. He is not. Sometimes we can see the dysfunction in these little things. OW and what her interaction with me also shows me who she is now. She is showing herself. Not just marking her territory, but completely taking control . Something avoidants hate.

Just some thought I have noticed and learned in the years I wanted to share for those looking for insights and answers. I always appreciated when I would read those insights on people farther along and could recognize it and it calmed my nerves in a “ that makes sense” kind of way.  Any answer, thougjts to settle the anxious mind in the early days is what we need.

[nah]

Omg. I just wrote a long winded response and it disappeared 

Shorter version.
Son and daughter rarely interact now.
She messaged him a year ago when his cat died.

After BD, son was drug addicted, sickly skinny, I was afraid for his life.
He is now a muscle bound beast!  He’s married to a girl I adore. They both have good jobs and even talking babies!!!!

MadLuv, I’m so sorry your story seems similar to mine. I understand the worry and pain. It took me such a very long time to get to the other side.
I’ll try to pop in later - I need to get ready for work.

[MadLuv]

Oh nooooo Nah- if you use your phone like me that happens. It’s so frustrating!!

My daughter is still not talking to me. She blocked me on social media and she is bonding with her brother. They don't see each other much, but when she is mad at me she seems to reach out to him more. So, positive for them  😊

I’m just riding out the storm. I don’t know that I will even want a conversation over this with her if she calms down. I just feel maybe a change in our relationship for a few years might be good as she heals more from Her fathers absence. Heck, maybe he will reappear. I just feel I have put my life on hold long enough. I have put everyone else before me. I have  made excuses for  XH  and I just am ready to not have my life affected by him anymore.

So, we shall see what continues to unfold.

[readytofixmyselffirst]

Hello,

I have made several partial responses to your thread only to see them disappear while working on something else so I am going to give it another try.

She also has told me that societal norms are that its acceptable for a man to walkaway from his kids, but not a mother,

I disagree to a point on this assertation. If a man leaves his family for work or military to support his family, that is not only considered acceptable, but commendable. However, a man who deserts his family is not looked upon favorably either. Where I agree with your daughter is that if a man walks away, he is considered a bad man, but if a woman leaves her children, she is a heretic.

I have not been perfect in all this. I have had times of  unbalance. I am not now, but I have been in dark places and I knew to seclude during those times.

Who on this site has? That was one of the most horrible times of my life. Just shattered my entire perceptions and views of my world. I was all over the place and it had a profound impact on my girls as well. At the time, I didn't even know how I was going to make it. Now, fifteen years past Bomb drop, things are much better. I have good relationships with my girls and I have been in a great marriage for seven years. My new wife is in her early fifties so there is still always a chance for round two, however, she is very pragmatic and I have seen no signs of MLC. Don't be too hard on yourself, you did the best you could do considering the circumstances.

Also, I think you have overlooked the trauma of losing a child. Your daughter was part of that horrific experience and you can't overlook the impact of that on all of you.

I just feel I have put my life on hold long enough. I have put everyone else before me.

One thing that I have learned over time is to choose to put others ahead of me. I don't put my life on hold, instead, I choose to do things for others simply because I want to. However, I have also learned to say no, which is hard for me, but I draw a line. Otherwise, it leads to frustration and being overworked at your own mental health. As I tell others, I can do a lot of things, but I can't and won't try to do everything. That simply means that sometimes I choose to put the needs of others ahead of me and sometimes I don't. Most of all, when I do say no, I don't let their reactions bother me.

It has taken me a long time to reach that point, but it has helped me navigate old age LOL!

Have a great day,

(((Ready)))

[MadLuv]

Thanks Ready. I agree. Man it’s a twisted set of circumstances that gets us here, but somehow I haven’t used all 9 lives yet.

[OffRoad]

All I can say is keep on keeping on. The kids get dumped on in a whole different way than we do. Sometimes they feel like they have to take sides. Sometimes they don't understand that people GET to be upset about something. Someone being upset in one's orbit is NOT the end of the world, but Society says you should always be HAPPY!!!! It's just hard. I've been through things with my kids that I never thought I'd have to weather and if not for MLC,  likely never would have. Just be true to yourself.  I started with trying to be the "nice" person, but that doesn't work. It was kind of like when my kids were little, I originally didn't encourage sarcasm.It was a wrong choice and we course corrected. A person cannot be "nice" to a jerk and have it come out well, and that includes your kids. Somewhere back in the bowels of my story are some stories where I stood up and just said "Not OK" (very mild Reader's Digest condensed version here). It felt weird and was hard because they are my kids, but they very much respect me for not allowing myself to be run over by them.  D28 and I have a great relationship at this point, and S26 is coming around (it's that Saturn Return that bops you upside the head).

So, TLDR, you are doing great, even when it doesn't seem like you are. We only get to control ourselves. 

[MadLuv]

Oh, Father’s Day…. I knew something would come. It’s a hard day. My father died of cancer 20 years ago. What always got me through was being able to celebrate my kids father, which is something I can no longer do.  I feel much pain that my kids father is walking here on earth and  intentionally hurting his own children while step parenting someone else kids. Heartbreaking

My sister called me last night to tell me my daughter posted a story on her father. She thought she wrote it, but I quickly knew it was something she took from something else. The top line is the name of the book.  I know the quote shows D34 deep pain on her father’s absence, but actually don't like the poem as it says that you can respect someone who discards you. It also feels a little blaming on the spouse that he chose wrong. For me it makes the parent that leaves not accountable. You can change and fall out of love and still leave in respect. To say you chose wrong after 30 years and dismiss the entire choice is disheartening.

Something else about it is that she was so mad that he doesn’t and shouldn’t have access to her life and pain and kids, yet she posts these things publicly which is a cry for help. I have learned that it is her pain. My sons pain. Separate from my pain.  I have to step out of their pain, but the mother in me has found that hard.  I have learned staying in it is harder. In the end the poem is about her deep pain and confusion on why this is happening and  I can relate to that pain as well all can.

Here is the poem from a book from the top title ( which really threw me off at first) my sister thought she was saying that about me until I looked and told her it was the name of the book, but goes to show you how posting things can be interpreted by anyone reading it many different ways. Another thing we all have to learn to not care about. What people think. He have to stand in our truth. No matter what.

my father's eyes, my mother's rage

I respect my father's honesty, he was unhappy with the life he chose, so he chose differently, (and he didn't choose me).
days with him turned into weekend visits, weekend visits turned into monthly visits. monthly visits turned into phone calls, phone calls turned into texts.
now I barely speak to him at all.
I respect my father's honesty, he was unhappy with the life he chose, so he chose differently, (and he didn't choose me).
but he is my father, and I didn't have a choice

[OffRoad]

I have no words. This just left me with my jaw hanging open. I seriously have no words. How do you respect someone "Choosing differently" with no regard to anyone else?

My kids have whatever relationship they have with their father. My D does NOT respect how he did what he did (and has little respect in general), but he is the only father she has. My S is still working on things (he is conflicted). Both know, in no uncertain terms, if they do anything like this to a spouse of theirs that I have embraced in to my life, don't expect me to abandon said spouse.

Unhappy with the life you chose?  Grow up, work it out or don't, and leave with honor if you must.

I swear, I just really have no words for this kind of thing........ I feel for your D, the poor thing.

[MadLuv]

Thank you for the response Offroad.  I am also just baffled. You know D34 seems to have a lot of the self victimization mode issues as her father, grandmother and grandfather on her Dad’s side has.  It more feels like this may truly be  a self esteem issue as her father had.  Some hereditary brain make up.  It’s not easy being rejected by someone you love. I went through this with my mother when I was 14. I certainly did not act like this. 

When our daughter died at 14 after only a one month heath diagnosis my D34 said to me. Your pain is not the same as mine. I told her of course. We both have a huge loss, but it is different for both of us. She said, I have to live a lot longer without her than you!!!!!  That thinking at that moment was so painful. I lost my daughter and I had to continue to work, cook, clean, provide emotional support. Try to be as normal as possible. When I just wanted to crawl in a corner. She of course was much younger than ( senior in high school) but she just has a lack of empathy for others.

She definitely is in a lot of pain. Posting on social media that and then saying your Dad doesn't deserve to know anything about her if he’a not involved, but that is a scream for someone to tell him.  It’s hard as a mother to not want to be that person to say something to him. I think I see her pain and cries better than she thinks. I lived it from the rejection myself. From the baffling experience that someone I spent over 30 years with  could discard me and walk asay in a veil of lies.

She has a husband and kids and I do wish she would focus on that, but I do think she lives in a world of focusing on the negative. It just never serves you well.  She will be chasing his affection for her self worth for a long time and I dont see this getting better. She doesn’t have the self regulation to calm
Herself. To look at what is could. To know that he is not well and it’s not a reflection of her or me or her brother.

The fact he takes his new wife on vacations with her adult daughters. Pays for a condo her adult daughter lives in.  It’s just all so over the top. It  took me a couple years to get over how his new wife was drenched in diamonds, driving a Mercedes, all designer clothes. Then I realized it all meant nothing. Thats all he has to give. He cant give emotionally.  I told D34 so many times. They could be anybody.  They just are easy. It costs him money, but they are not an emotional investment. She always agrees, but her post still shows she  doesn’t see that she isnt being rejected personally. He is running from accountability. Period

[MadLuv]

Something I also want to note is that for some reason all this doesn’t dis regulate me like the early days. Time and introspection truly keeps making us stronger. I do think this whole situation continues to make me a better person. It also helps me to see how much I went through in my own childhood with my parents divorce.  I was always such a confident person, so I thought. What I have learned through my XH crisis is that I became a very anxious attacher.

I am fine alone now. I miss having a family intact, but I also have accepted that I have done so much to keep this family together for so long at the expense of my own mental health.  I do feel like I have done my best.  For years. I have no regrets.

[marvin4242]

ML again I’ll try to be careful as sometimes you have not taken my observations as intended. So first I admire and acknowledge how far you have come. As you said so well you exes behavior no longer disregulates you.

Having said that I feel I need to point out you D is choosing pain. She is an adult, she is no longer a victim of what happened. The past can’t be changed, but choosing to act as she is the only hurt party is a symptom. Holding on to pain and victimhood freezes us. This in no way is meant to diminish the pain and damage. That can’t be changed. How she frames and lives with it can be.

So maybe you can still be a role model to her. Show her how you live with the past. Maybe have no focus on what your ex is doing, how he is living etc. You do seem aware of his actions. Why care? Show your D that she is no longer a child, that she has agency. She can’t change her dad, but she can change herself.

[MadLuv]

Marvin Thank you so much

What I know  of my XH is from years ago or what D34 tells me. Which I have tried to be her ear, but also stated a few posts ago that I need to tell her I cant hear anything anymore as it’s not good for me.  That is why I stated it took me a while to get past it.  I went NC 2 years ago. Helped immensely because he could make me feel bad for him and it was confusing.  Her and I have so many conversations and I specifically talk to her about how my mind set has changed as time has gone on. She seems to totally agree and then she will explode. I do think she is a 34 year old woman and  I do think her dis regulation is extreme. What I do know is that I cant afford to be his defender or her defender. That’s what has got me in trouble.

Marvin. Im sorry if you haven't felt I took your advise as always intended. I think it’s more your straight forward and so am I.  That can always be read as more a judgment or fight back, but  nearly never meant that  way. ( but I was a master on the debate team in school, so maybe a skill I haven’t dropped. Haha )

I appreciate ALL and ANY thoughts. Only we here have had the courage to share and tell our stories. Our struggles. Our pain. I think everyone one here journalling show a willingness and courage to want to be better. To heal. To survive and most importantly to help.

So don’t ever feel your advise is not accepted. Sometimes I’m not the best explaining and then realize that thought is based on me not being clear. However, I embrace everyone's thoughts. I can get in a swirl of past, current ,future and have found problems with focus and that can translate also wrong. Sometimes we can be blinded by our own confusion and it always helps to take a second look!!! Always 😊

Also…for the first time in over 4 years I finally in every way have let go of my XH. I don’t understand how someone can do that to anyone after decades and a loss of a child and to their own children, but that use to want me to save him and now I just don’t want to think about him at all. He isn’t  growing or changing and I hope he reconnects with his kids, but I don’t want to know about it. He doesn’t exist anymore to me. Not in a mean way. I just don’t know him or want to as he is.

[OffRoad]

As a parent, we don't want our children to hurt. Sometimes what I post here was a way to sort what I needed to do. You (the generic parent you)want to be the sympathetic ear and yet you really cannot be when it comes to an MLC parent unless you frame it as ANY person who disrespects your child is not deserving of your child's respect.

As the LBS, it can be maddening (if I let it be)to hear the the MLCer took someone else a place I had always wanted to go (and he knew it and denied it for years for *Reasons*) or to see someone else get the item wanted for years and again denied for *reasons*.  I cannot imagine what it feels as a child of an MLCer to see people not even really known get things they do not. But as an adult, it's a thing to deal with, not wallow in. We don't all get dealt the same hand.

Which brings me back to your D34's comment, yes way back when as a senior.  I will say, I know a lot of teenagers that are self absorbed. They usually come out of it around 25-26. But I have to wonder, based on my own experience. Did we, the LBS, maybe stuff our own needs and feelings way too much for the sake of "everyone else"? In my case, I have to say yes, I did. It wasn't until I was tired of people expecting me to roll over and play dead and fired back (sometimes with both salvos) that my kids attitude changed from "Mom should just do that or be there or accept whatever" to " Whoa, she actually has things she has to deal with and her own needs, too". Just a thought. Maybe your D is not capable of getting that. She obviously was not at 17-18, but one would think she should be now.

Congratulations on letting go. It's not easy, for sure. You are having your own Peanut Brittle moment. It's an amazing feeling when you find you really just don't care for whoever they happen to be right now, and that is OK. It doesn't mean that some miracle couldn't happen and they change again and it works out, but you aren't hanging your star on that. It's a good place to be.