[amazinglove]

Link to last thread:
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=12208.0

I am never more grateful for this group than when something happens that makes me want to scream into the universe when I get an unfortunate look into my MLC XH's mindset.

Today he v helpfully FORWARDED me (with no commentary) an article from the NYT ydy that one of his clients sent him in Ask the Therapist /Lori Gottlieb https://www.nytimes.com/2025/05/22/well/mind/ask-therapist-affair-kids.html  - where she advises a wife NOT to tell the kids their dad had an affair - which is the reason they divorced. And that her perspective of his affair is only 'her' truth and telling your kids may come from a desire to get revenge on him so keep it to yourself. And in fact his perspective may be that it was just his natural reaction to a marriage that was already dying. So basically, nothing is his fault and if you tell the truth about it, you are a bad person. I am paraphrasing here, because in this case the kids were teens who never asked about the divorce and the woman in question did not want to tell them. However, I am absolutely incensed that a) my XH felt he needed to forward this to me like a bullet (I've already told our daughter and he knows that, who asked constant and unceasing questions btw)  b) he is telling his clients this bull$h!te story that our marriage was dead therefore he did what came naturally and c) any and all marriage breakdowns have two sides to them that are equally valid and both are right.

As someone who was blindsided by a spouse of 13 years that began resenting me, withdrawing, having an illicit affair and then blindsiding me with an entirely new persona, set of values, wardrobe, nose (in this case) and running 12,000 miles away, with no interest in really parenting or supporting his children - I am really, really angry that this kind of thinking is being encouraged for him.

I feel like he's been spinning since the day he decided he would not end his affair and he would embrace his new, entirely selfish life across the world. He started by telling anyone who would listen that our sex life was awful, I was frigid, hated sex, turning him down all the time (all lies), and now it's that our marriage was already dead, he had no choice, and the kids should know it was a 50/50 breakdown of our marriage with no details or blame ascribed to anyone. My children are 8 and 11. They are completely damaged by the abandonment of their dad, who ran off with a RICH Russian granny (ex gf) and sold us all out for private jets and designer underwear.

As i parent alone, picking up the pieces daily of their rightful sense of loss and rejection, in addition to my own, I also have to contend with this kind of passive/aggressive tactics from him trying to solidify his narrative and gaslight me. When I responded to his email in an admitted 6am tirade about what the truth actually was 'This article has nothing to do with our story. You were depressed, you broke from unhealed trauma, and you ran away. You never tried to work on anything ! You denied there were any problems and yelled at me when I tried to talk about feeling lonely, or not as connected and asked you if you were considering an affair because of how cold you were to me - and you were already having one!  Our marriage was not dying, we were still saying I love you and meaning it - but you resented me for not being able to make America as great for you as it was for me and the kids and so you pulled away and punished me.  You abandoned your children, you are selfish beyond measure and a poor excuse for a father. And in the end they will know you chose a rich Russian granny over their mother and ultimately them."

His response was that he didn't really understand my long email and that he didn't want to fight over this article -and that he still loves me and the kids (and no one can change that!)  but that yes, he does blame me for the move to America, that I trapped him here and that his soul "was dying every day". He said ' you were happy there, with your master bedroom, and new car and excited about your work, and I was miserable and so things changed between us."  I think that's kind of  exactly what I said too! But the change was that he pouted like a giant, selfish baby and then blew up all of our lives as punishment for us succeeding where he'd failed.

That's what it feels like anyway!

Our divorce is final. He is no longer my problem or my husband. I know I need to not care what he tells people about us, or indeed what he tells himself, but it just feels like addiing insult to injury, to be betrayed AND THEN lied about! Has anyone ever felt this way?

I hope that in future, I can get an email like that from him and just be like, 'whatever' and delete it without caring.

I'm not there yet.

[forthetrees]

I read that nytimes piece and I had a different take away. I thought her advice was to ask the LBS the motivation for why she would tell her kids and depending on the answer then go ahead and share but if it were out of a sense of righteousness then wait for the kids to ask. Him sending you the article was a "poke the bear" move. Maybe it´s his immature reaction to the divorce being final and he wanted to zing you one more time.

Take a deep breath as he is no longer your spouse and the decree has spelled out the financials. Yes, it is likely he will continue to wound your
kiddos´hearts with insensitive behaviors and words and outright neglect but your kids are going to naturally lower their expectations with time to the point that they will not pine for him but perhaps for "a dad" who cares.

I think we still get shocked by how they are willing to stoop yet lower again and again. I´m not sure that shock ever goes away and maybe that´s a good thing as it´s a normal reaction. If it happens again maybe consider no response at all so he does not have the satisfaction of knowing whether or not you even got the email. After all, what they are seeking is a reaction. Maybe create a FU folder for storing the inane emails as a ritual instead of responding.

Hope you can still have a pleasant holiday weekend.
Hugs,
FTT

[Treasur]

I read the response posted on another site which I occasionally look at https://www.chumplady.com/should-the-kids-know-about-dads-affair/ - you might find it helpful.

My thought about it when I read it? Well of course the departing spouse wants to control the narrative bc a) entitlement and b) if there was no shame about doing a bad thing, there would be no need to not tell the truth, would there?  My second response was broadly rude and unprintable and full of lots of **$***!!

At the same time, I think one comes to accept that divorce inherently implied that you are no longer responsible for, or invested in, THEIR ‘truth’ or vice versa. And sadly that does mean that accepting that you have zero control or influence over what they think or what they say to anyone else. Which is not an easy pill to swallow, is it? (And yes, he definitely sent the link bc he was trying to pressure or influence you….just say no to that but in future you will find it easier not to be pulled into reacting at all)

Not a parent here, but post-PTSD, I find I have a lot more respect for the importance of the factual truth about big things that affect our lives significantly. And that there is a difference between WHAT and WHY. Imho ypur kids deserve to know the basic WHATs….that you loved their dad and thought your marriage was good, that you were shocked and blindsided by his actions, that he left the country, had an affair with MM and did not tell you the truth for a long time, and that most marriages can’t survive one spouse behaving like that, so you had to get divorced so the three of you could go ahead and build a good but different life. No need to dip into  technicoloured detail about what he did/does or your opinion if him as a human, other than saying perhaps that his actions obviously changed how you see him as a person now and how much involvement you want to have with him in future which is normal.

But WHY he did/does what he did/does? You don’t know and if they need/want to know, they will have to ask him and decide for themselves what they think about what he says bc none of us are responsible for being a magic mind reader. Separate the truth of the WHAT from your opinion of the WHY. Trust your kids as intelligent young growing humans to develop their own discernment. Correct factual lies if they are important but otherwise keep reminding yourself that immature disordered deceitful humans normally have an elastic relationship with the truth and plenty of reason to try to avoid telling it….thats just how they roll…and there are things you will never really get about his version of life bc thankfully you are not an immature disordered deceitful person. You are literally hard-wired differently! Again jmo but I suspect the life lessons for LBS kids are not much different than for LBS…a process of seeing unwelcome realities as they are and gradually deciding what they want to do with that and how it changes how they interact with that parent and what they expect of them.

A divorce finalising is a tricky thing to comment on imho…feels like it deserves both a sorry and a congratulations, both at the same time. Mixed emotions for sure given the scale of the life plot twist. The one thing that most of us found is that life carrying a disordered person is inherently exhausting and divorce provides a legitimate rationale for a whole bunch of ‘Not My Circus, Not My Job’ boundaries. Again jmo, but listening to your xh’s opinion about anything from the price of fish to his inner monologue is likely to be one of them…just takes a while to get the hang of it after decades of acting differently.

Just say Pffft to future emails like this and turn your attention to more pleasing things like planning your new home or useful ones like cleaning the toilet!

[Reinventing]

Amazinglove,

That was a tough email to receive and not feel incensed. I agree that if the affair was just this natural part things then why hide it from anyone? Why the shame about it? Seems like a catch-22 thought process, but that is par for the course throughout this whole thing. Amazing mental dymnastics.

I also agree with sending the email to a folder and the more incensed you are, the more you wait to respond.

[KayDee]

Our divorce is final. He is no longer my problem or my husband. I know I need to not care what he tells people about us, or indeed what he tells himself, but it just feels like addiing insult to injury, to be betrayed AND THEN lied about! Has anyone ever felt this way?

Oh yeah! I bet we all have. When this crops up for me, my inner wise woman says to me 'what else would he say?' I suspect the culprits say it as much for themselves as they do for other people. And while they continue to do so, they are still... well still who they are now, and nowhere near being a person you could have an honest conversation with. I mean, let's face it, we women on the forum have  probably all met the guy who says 'my wife doesn't understand me, la la la' (and versions of) to justify $h!tety behaviour. People see through it. The article share by a client was likely a response to his self-pity (and why is he telling his clients this kind of thing anyway!?!). Big old cracks in his narrative and somewhere in that muddled mind he knows it, so he is trying to justify his own behaviour by citing the NYTs.

[Reinventing]

And the author of the NYT advice in that article so protected herself from a man that she never married and conceived through a sperm donor. Hard not to read into trust issues there.

I have to say that it's hard to take the advice of how to respond to betrayal from someone who made sure they could never be betrayed themselves. She can certainly make those choices and I think they are great for her, don't get me wrong. But to then give such advice about whether an affair is a bit much for me to take.

[amazinglove]

Treasur thanks for forwarding me that Chump article. It helped to see that she has form for always excusing cheating men!!
And yes, Reinventing I agree- I loved her book tho, loved it- so was so disappointed to see her call truth and lies or victim and predator - “two versions of reality” I really hate that mentality.
My XH mostly blames me and circumstances for his actions, never himself. It’s hard to constantly refuse to take that on and often he gets to me and I do take it on and feel guilty. All the time! What did I miss? Why did I marry him? Why were  red flags Ignored?  Why subject my kids to him? This kind of thing reinforces his false narrative and my constant feelings of failure!
How have others here managed to not own their MLC spouse’s shame?

[forthetrees]

I think ditching the feeling of shame does come naturally with time and distance. You begin to see the situation more clearly and realize that you did your part but you cannot and could not control another person. You each have to own your own. You did not abandon your family and leave your kids to cry on a regular basis. I think having a mantra to repeat to yourself when the shame monster rears its head would help.

[xyzcf]

My XH mostly blames me and circumstances for his actions, never himself. It’s hard to constantly refuse to take that on and often he gets to me and I do take it on and feel guilty. All the time! What did I miss? Why did I marry him? Why were  red flags Ignored?  Why subject my kids to him? This kind of thing reinforces his false narrative and my constant feelings of failure!

There was a lot in that article about many issues that might have occurred during the marriage. Many couples can work together to identify and understand the conflicts that occur...in normal married life. Our spouses did not want to do that. Or, they felt that they had "tried" and were done. I don't think it is necessary to tell children that their fathers have had an affair. Some things are private and to what advantage does it have? Eventually, it came out in my case and she "knew" anyway...but my daughter is a grown woman..and his cheating wasn't the worst of what he has done (although it causes me to go into a rage).

Two things speak to me...the idea that they were done with the marriage a long time before we had any clue that they were "finished"...we might have had some inkling that something was off...but never to the degree that the marriage was over.

The other, is that the affair is a symptom of their trying to find something to give them a "high"..because they have lost the feeling of excitement and the rush of having an affair is intoxicating. Adultery hurts us deeply but it is only one of the several things that cause trauma when our marriages end this way..suddenly and without warning.

No relationship is perfect...don't rewrite history...questioning what you missed or why did you marry him, have children with him....most likely, there was a great deal of happiness in your marriage and family life. Unless the time you were together was absolutely dreadful...you did not know that he would have a crisis...none of us did. Were there red flags? Only you know if that is true or if looking back, you are examining things that might or might not have been problematic. And what could you have done to change things?

We didn't argue or fight or disagree...I thought this was a positive thing...that we were so in tune with one another and so "adult" that we could calmly come to agreement on everything...he was very very kind and loving to me..what did we have to fight about?

I can see now that we are both conflict avoiders..but it wouldn't have mattered..he was already programmed to have a crisis that changed him in so many ways...another truism that we have spoken about on Heros Spouse..it would not have mattered who he married..he still would have had a crisis..it was not us.

Your "constant feelings of failure"...he is not responsible for you feeling that way...you are questioning everything and that's ok...he was the one who has failed, as a husband, a father and your best friend......I would suggest hashing this out in therapy as to why you feel you failed? Because that could be something relating to your own inner self and might be worth a look.

Usually, I encourage people to try and have some contact with the MLCer....but it might be time for you to eliminate him from your life...doesn't have to be forever...but a time out might help you to heal. I always think it is best for children to have contact with their father or mother...did your divorce set out any visitation arrangements? It really is up to him to arrange to see his children and as you have already seen, they don't make much of an effort.

Unless you can handle contact without it tearing you apart, arranging other ways to communicate with him  concerning the children, perhaps through a parenting app or another person might make things easier for you. You don't owe it to him to keep him informed about them..he left them as well as you and you did not "fail" them..he did.

[Treasur]

My XH mostly blames me and circumstances for his actions, never himself. It’s hard to constantly refuse to take that on and often he gets to me and I do take it on and feel guilty. All the time! What did I miss? Why did I marry him? Why were  red flags Ignored?  Why subject my kids to him? This kind of thing reinforces his false narrative and my constant feelings of failure!
How have others here managed to not own their MLC spouse’s shame?

I see two strands here, if it helps. The blame and responsibility that your xh tries to shift onto you. And your own sense of failure or shame or maybe just regret about all the big and small choices you made that you think might have brought you to this spot, the roads not taken so to speak. Is that fair? If so I would start by separating these two things bc imho they are not the same.

I found it helpful to keep it very simple.
Anything I did not know about? Not my responsibility.
Anything anyone else thought but didn’t say? Not a magic mind reader so not my responsibility.
Actions taken by others in which I was given no voice or vote? Not my responsibility.
Other people prioritising A over B, and then not much liking the pretty predictable consequences of B? Not my responsibility.
Other people betraying my trust or lying to me or stealing from me? Not my responsibility.
Basically anything that I can’t directly control or where my opinion is excluded is not my responsibility.
You’ll find that takes quite a lot off your plate! And tbh it’s a mindset that tends to spill into lots of other bits of life so it has wider uses!

You may find it helpful to begin exposing yourself less, where you can, to anyone else’s version of the above. Not your responsibility. Probably not useful. Doubtless heard it all before so no need to hear it again. Unreliable source too lol. Plus your former h chose to leave you and your kids and your old shared life to create a different one with other people….regardless of his words of ‘love’, that’s probably the only big clear bit of feedback you need. Everything else he might say is imho likely to be a broken self-pity record or justification - and past a certain point it’s not useful bc what he did is what he did and the standard laws of cause and effect tend to roll out whether he, or you, like it or not. That may or may not work out well for him but it was HIS choice and he had others, so his choice and what comes from it is also not your responsibility. Tbh you are probably busy enough tidying up the unchosen effects on your life and your kids’ lives, right? Let him carry the load of his own effects. Again, jmo, but this is a version of how Big Acceptance works in practice, a certain level of letting other peoples’ chips fall as they may.

Oh and as a PS, again jmo, but I don’t think it’s reasonable to require ourselves to feel any responsibility for what happens to their lives after us, or indeed to make them feel better about any of those unfolding effects. They made choices while usually we got no choice at all..,we were then left to deal with a whole bunch of effects without their support so it seems fair to apply the same principle. I’m not saying one has to be a vindictive a$$hat, just keep chipping away at our mental boundaries of what is our business now and what is not, what is appropriate to be involved in and what is not. So, damaged fingers? And the legality of divorce can help with that bc it practically restructures obligations and reasonable expectations even as a parent. No more energy invested than if a cashier in the supermarket told me the same…sorry to hear that, sounds difficult, then hey ho and move on. When in doubt imho, think reciprocal balance….don’t give out what you don’t expect to receive unless there is a darned good overarching reason to do so like damaged fingers means can’t drive over to pick up kids etc etc.

And now the squirmy bits….
Accepting that I DID make a bunch of choices, big and small, that turned out very poorly for me. Being as honest as I can be about what I knew at the time and that I probably did the best I could based on that. Being as honest as I could about why I chose x over y, in so far as memory allows, or why I adapted around someone else’s desire for x over y. What I said yes to and what I said no to. Red flags I did not see (and why I didn’t see them) or red flags I tinted pink (and maybe why). And all under the umbrella that I am neither God nor Dr Who so I can’t know the future or use a time travel machine!

Did that leave me with some things I regretted, some things I felt cross with my younger self about, a few things I felt bad or foolish about? It did. But it also helped me accept that perfection isn’t in a marriage contract, that my mistakes (such as they were) were usually reasonable and understandable based on what I knew at the time, that my intent was almost always good and generous and fair. That I treated my xh as I would wish to be treated. But that I also was far from my best self for quite a while around and post BD and that I did not always look after myself well or deal with the ensuing cataclysm well. And that life is a lot less controllable than we think. And that some of that just sucks. And some of that requires a bit of kindness towards myself as a well meaning but standard imperfect human!

Divorce naturally separates you from some things but tbh I found that some other aspects of separation, maybe the emotional or mental ones, don’t completely happen automatically bc of legal paperwork. It takes a little time to go from being a We through a Me Minus You to a Just Me to whatever then unfolds from that. Be kind to yourself; give yourself a little time to let that evolve.