[Treasur]

Ooh and another PS which applied to me but may or may not apply to your own reflections. Many of the ‘I wish I had done/known’ things that came out of my own reflections, things that would have kept me safer or ensured that I did not end up where I ended up, were also things that imho would have either made any normal relationship impossible or have made it very difficult for me to live life as the kind of person I am and wanted (want) to be. I genuinely do not know how one can share a life over time with another human without trusting them about a whole bunch of things, big and small. Not expecting perfection, but expecting a foundation of good intent and honesty. Again jmo but I honestly don’t believe the fault was mine in trusting….the fault lay with someone else proving to be untrustworthy. And I just didn’t know that was how it was…until I did.

I don’t see someone else’s untrustworthiness as my responsibility either. Or something to feel ashamed about or as a failure. The bad news about that is, if we’re being honest with ourselves, it highlights the limits of what we can control, doesn’t it? The good news is that it means it can be ok and good and normal to trust other people in future though!

[readytofixmyselffirst]

Hello,

where she advises a wife NOT to tell the kids their dad had an affair - which is the reason they divorced. And that her perspective of his affair is only 'her' truth and telling your kids may come from a desire to get revenge on him so keep it to yourself. And in fact his perspective may be that it was just his natural reaction to a marriage that was already dying.

I agree that if the motive is to turn the kids against the wayward spouse, then it shouldn't be done. Even if you wish the cheater a permanent hangnail and case of terrible halitosis, that doesn't mean that you can let the children know that. However, that doesn't mean the children shouldn't know. If your spouse was addicted to drugs, you may have to divorce because the addiction is harming the other spouse and the children. It comes to survival, you have to make tough choices for yourself and the addict as well. Infidelity holds the same impact. Some marriages can survive, but many don't. Children should know that marriage is a commitment between two people and allowing someone else in violates that commitment. If you do tell the children, it should be matter of fact. "Yes, he/she had an affair and in my opinion, infidelity is a deal breaker." No need to rage or try to "win" the children over. It's a fact.

Your ex can't just try to escape his responsibility for his choices and actions. He made choices and they violated his commitments and vows. You can try to hide behind some words or other agendas, but you need to accept responsibility. That's life.

Usually, I encourage people to try and have some contact with the MLCer....but it might be time for you to eliminate him from your life...doesn't have to be forever...but a time out might help you to heal. I always think it is best for children to have contact with their father or mother...

It's funny, I did not want to hear anything from my ex. It set me on edge and it was never a good call or meeting. Then she apologized to me. Still had tension, but it has since gone down a lot. We don't speak often, but now we are cordial and polite. I still don't trust her, but I can see her perspective and work with her. Our children are grown and both of our daughters have relationships with myself and my ex. Of course, having a grandbaby has softened things a lot too. However, throughout the crisis and the aftermath, I never tried to dissuade the girls from contacting their mother. I think that enabling the children to see the other spouse actually prevent conflicts down the road that may negatively impact the LBSer.

I hope you have a great day. Continue to focus on your growth and if your ex sends you nonsense, there is always the delete button.

(((Ready)))

[MadLuv]

Time and distance certainly helps to bring clarity. I also really dug in and the last conversation I had with XH 2 years ago I knew I would jot talk to him most likely again, unless he wpuld be accountable. I apologized for all the things, actions etc that I felt I did wrong or I could have handled better. When I asked him if he had anything to say he just sad. i’m sorry. I dont know what happened to me. Nothing else. No clarity. No exact things he could have pointed out. In the end if you did the best you could with the relationship you were given thats all you can do.

One thing I so agree with now is even if they think they are covering well. We feel the change. Why? Because not only is some of their attention gone towards someone else, but that relationship them as well.  So that also is part of why you dont recognize them. We change even if we dont realize it ever so slightly with bew relationships, so its hard to find who we used to be with if they are changing to be someone elses priority.

[amazinglove]

First and foremost thank you so much to those that replied! I so appreciate your wisdom and read your reponses multiple times. THANK YOU!

So he's here and the kids are so happy. It was my d graduation from elementary school and bday and it's great for her that he's here, my son is over the moon and in heaven having him around. It's sad how much he loves it bc we all know it's temporary.

I have let him know he has to get rid of his things and I am not moving with them. He is taking some back with him and he has asked me to store a few things in the garage until he can get those or for winter when he visits and I've said ok. In spite of trying to avoid any serious conversations, he did at one point say to me, 'yes the affair was my mistake, but all the other mistakes leading up to that, were yours" and basically kind of blamed me for triggering this.

It's outrageous i know, but what's hard is that there is some truth in some of the things he said! I should not have assumed he could make this big a sacrifice for me and be ok with it long term. And that asking him to leave his dream job and move so far away from his homeland would dismantle him so entirely. I didn't see that coming - and if I had to do it again, I'm not sure honestly what I would do. Because the fact is, this job has been a complete godsend and blessing for me, and I believe the kids and I are all doing better out here than we would be in London. However, we no longer have a husband and dad and that is a huge deal and piece we are all missing. I don't know if I believe he would have done this dramatic of a move away from us if we were still there, but I will say I'm not sure what the quality of my marriage would be!

He walks around here and he is helpful. he does a lot of yard work and lifting and oil change and packing and all the things I've asked. he is mostly nice, but I've noticed he takes little jabs at me like in a 'joking' tone but not nice (you talk too much, you always said no to everything, i know you won't do what i'm asking but) stuff like that. i ignore them or if I can be bothered I say something back, 'well maybe i talk a lot sure but the too much part is subjective. lots of people love exactly how much i talk" and then walk away. He also is hugely rude sometimes and grouchy and annoying. He looks so bad ! really disheveled and his eyes have no spark. He has aged like 10 years since all this started. He was always a handsome and in shape guy but he's let himself go terribly and we really do not look like we fit together (in addition to not actually fitting together). he is 8 years younger than me but looks 10 years older.

I've asked him to take kids mini golfing and laser tag today as a last day of school treat. My D wants to see her friends one last time before she goes on holiday and we move. He was annoyed but said yes ok. i mean can you imagine? annoyed? he barely sees them! he should be happy to do it!  he wanted to take my son to the outlets shopping instead - which would be for him too obvs.

He said to me today - I get the feeling you don't want me at all in Tennessee. I said, it's not that, you should visit your kids - but in my new home, I'm turning a page and a new start for me and I am not 'bringing you with me". Therefore I don't want your stuff in the house. And i said, visit NYC with your AP and then go see your kids in Tenn I don't even care, but stay in a hotel. marry her and be rich and stay in a hotel. He looked appalled. He doesnt like me to talk about her, or seem ok with her I think. He acknowledged that he wants me to just wait for him and stay his wife and keep the door open. I said, i would never accept that, as you know.

lastly, i said to him, you see only your own pain, and but there is other pain. Mine is big, and so is your kids. You have gone off and started a new life with a new family and we are all having to move on without you and it's not always easy so we are doing what we need to do.

I dont think anything lands tho, as ever, or if it does, it lasts max 5mins.

But having him here, being around him, as hard as it is, makes me miss him less. Makes me see that I don't want him and I really, really don't want to live with him. So altho being around him sucks, I will love him less, will miss him less, and the kids are much happier.

That is the upside I guess.

[marvin4242]

One thing jumps out at me from your last post: whatever it is you "did" how did you make him do anything? Do you have some magical power to make him (and others) do things they do not want?

I know it's obvious but I want to underscore the fact that healthy functioning adults CAN and DO state their needs, and will not simply go along with something only to then play the victim. He chose to betray your trust, anything else he says is a minor form of gaslighting. Even if you insisted and he didn't agree he could have at that time and place left.

[MadLuv]

I also want to twist this a bit also . I gave up my job so my XH could have his dream job. I was miserable in my next position, so much I ended up quitting after 25 years, but with that said knowing what I know now he was already on a slippery slope. So, was it the new job or was it him pulling away. Was it not having support ?

 I just think it’s so easy for them to pick apart things and it is also so easy for us to blame ourselves. In the end you didn’t leave, deceive, lack communication . Relationships take two willing individuals that are fully in. 💯 not 50 or 80. For what it’s worth I am also a talker. I have friends that say, I know I have to block 1 to 2 hours if I am calling you. Hahaha  I’m not offended. Don’t  let him ever make you believe his nit picky issues. There are just as many you can say about him. Marriage is work. A lot of work. He failed at it and you didn’t.

[Treasur]

I have to agree strongly with Marvin and ML on this. Tbh I think it is one of the big life lessons from this experience…we really can’t ‘make’ people do or feel or say things. And that out magic mind reading hats are seriously limited. Which also means we are simply never responsible for their actions, only our own. Close your eyes and try it lol…you couldn’t even make him be happy to spend time with his girl at laser tag, honesty, fidelity and alternative career planning options seem like a stretch ha ha.

I am confident that your job move did not happen overnight or involve handcuffs…he had plenty of opportunities to say No or I’m not sure or I’m a bit worried about or Can we talk through how that might work. Did he do that? And if he did, did you roll over him like a bulldozer and tell him to shut up bc his wishes or concerns didn’t matter? I’m guessing probably not.

Important imho to keep your eyes on facts rather than someone else’s rewriting of history. Even if it really seems that they believe it. As our late Queen famously said ‘Recollections May vary’!

It’s interesting too that his inherent take on the job move (when he did not use his mouth to protest, but other bits of his working parts seemingly) is how self-centred his assumptions are, that somehow his needs outweigh those of the other three members of his family?

 I know plenty of fathers/husbands who would see doing what is best for their family as the mark of being a ‘real man’, that ability to practically put your family first, to be their protector. And I certainly know lots of women who do that every day for their kids. But it seems that your xh (is he xh now?) doesn’t see it that way at all but more the other way round, that it’s your collective job to make HIM happy and put him first.

The other thing that jumps out at me is the digs he is making? One of the habits of disordered folks is to try to make themselves feel bigger by trying to make others feel smaller. Plus it can make others feel a bit unsettled so it gives you a feeling of control perhaps…an invitation to ‘dance harder’ to please me. It’s a power play, not a conversation.

I suspect the underpinning reason for this is that your planned move so obviously does not include him as a ‘pop up guest’ and he feels a bit surprised and miffed about it. So, like a child, he is ‘acting out’.  Things are not working out as he thought they would, are they, and he is not continuing to be the centre of your collective universe, free to do whatever he wants with no nasty consequences. Which makes no rational sense bc HE left, of course, but these folks are not driven by rationality, are they? With time, I have no doubt that his words will sting less and just sound like blah blah blah. And quite possibly, Moscow Mule or his family or cheese will be the object of blame for his woes - anything but him really. Again, these folks are almost always given to being passive-aggressive and indirect in how they communicate….digs over direct conversation…well until they opt for plain aggressive. It’s a strange thing but seen here quite often that years on these folks can still be full of bile and resentment and blame long past the point when the LBS plays any role in their lives at all. And it’s difficult for most of us to get that bc we LBS tend to be wired very differently.

So, hold your course. Anything he does not collect by the time you move goes in the bin. And, whilst he is welcome to make arrangements to see his kids and I’m sure you will facilitate them visiting him, he is never ever going to stay over in your new home.  Not once. And yes, that’s bc he is not welcome in your new home or your new unfolding life. That’s why God invented motels and airbandb lol.

[MadLuv]

Not once. And yes, that’s bc he is not welcome in your new home or your new unfolding life. That’s why God invented motels and airbandb

hehe…amen!!!

[OffRoad]

Here is where I have a problem with the "It's YOUR fault" claim. Most of us were blindsided. We had zero idea that there was anything wrong, or that something was rolling through the MLCer's mind.

If I took the last apple and it bothered the mlcer, could I know that if i wasn't told? If I repeatedly didn't buy enough apples and the MLCer didn't get one, but no one told me, is it my fault that I had no idea he didn't get any if he didn't tell me? If I threw away a bad apple and the mlcer wanted to cut out the parts that might be good and I had no idea he would even do such a thing, is that on me? If I never bought apples because I didn't like them and no one told me they wanted apples, am I to blame?

In all of the above, I did all those thing, took the last apple, didn't buy enough, threw away a bad one, never bought apples, but it was not my fault that the MLCer had whatever problem he had AND NEVER SAID ANYTHING. 

How many of us, if told we hadn't bought enough apples, would NOT go out and buy apples to make it right? How many of us would not say "Oh, there is a problem, how can we fix it?" But we have to KNOW that the problem is there to even work out a compromise.

Do not take on the blame for a person who didn't have the ability to convey that they were having a problem with something that was happening. People with honor, integrity, loyalty and morals don't try to fix problems by having an affair, or abandoning their families. How would that even make sense?

Now, if there is something about yourself you want to improve for you, good on you. But do not for a minute think if you had jumped through every hoop he tells you you didn't, it would have made any difference at all. He'd have just found more hoops for you. IMO and in my experience. Your mileage may vary.

[Treasur]

Such wise words from OR here.
If you’ve read along on the forum for a while, you see all kinds of ridiculous ‘faults’…working too much or not enough, paying too much attention to kids or not enough, too thin or too fat, too much fun at social events or not social enough….the list is endless and a bit bonkers…..buying bagged salad always sticks in my mind. 😝

None of us is perfect of course. And we LBS types tend to be quick at taking responsibility and rather earnestly trying to do our best, so imho we can be an easy mark for this stuff.

But you know the other thing that seems to be pretty common? MLC types are very poor at doing either of those things. And they create bizarre false equivalences. So, your ‘bad’ apples behaviour justifies, and is equal to, a whole raft of extreme betrayal, deceit and life-altering damage for you and everyone else involved. And it really isn’t, you know. Apples vs putrid pears imho. I’m quite confident that, with all my normal imperfections, I had done nothing in my 50+years on the planet that warranted what my xh did to me. Saying otherwise is just gaslighting BS, usually imho done to avoid an appropriate amount of personal responsibility for someone else doing bad things and lying about it. Which is just not my responsibility lol…if I had those kind of magic mind reading/get others to do what I want powers, I’d have used them for much more productive and happy things than I got in this situation!

There are grown up, honest and respectful ways to end a marriage if that is what you decide you want to do. Difficult but possible, particularly once the first emotional shock of it subsides. That wasn’t what happened to us, that wasn’t the choice they made. And at a simple level I suspect that is bc it was too hard and too grown up and too much personal responsibility taking to do that….easier for them to create huge damage and blame it on others. That says quite a lot about the kind of people they are and nothing much at all about us imho.