[Evermore]

A new thread finally (the last one spanned 2 years, hard to believe). This one is named after a Bernard Fanning song I listen to a lot. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JYlyghmTSIU

It’s been nearly 4.5 years since BD. My H is actually my XH now (I think). But being D’d (I think) hasn’t changed how I feel one bit. So I’m going to continue to call him H in my threads (you’ll all just have to bear with me!).

I’m using my phone to create this new thread so I’ll do all the admin’y stuff tomorrow from my laptop. I’ll also reply properly tomorrow to the (much appreciated) posts at the end of my last thread. But I wanted to briefly say thank you to my dear H&F for her great advice. As usual you instil a calm in me. It ended up being a lovely night last night. H did not turn up but that was ok. I called him in the afternoon (something I having done in, gee, I think it would be years!) and I was glad I did. More on that tomorrow. 😊

[Evermore]

Last thread: https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11599.0
 
I brought this across from my last thread:

Oh Ever, I am sorry you are feeling so anxious right now (or earlier today).  Not a great feeling at all.  By the time you read this, your dinner will be well under way and you will know whether H managed to get there and how that all went down.  I am hopeful that getting your feelings down here did actually help relieve some pressure for you.

I actually also think that by the time you read this, you will have come to some of the same conclusions/observations that I am about to share because that is something you are very good at.  You always tip yourself up the right way all on your own....and with increasing speed.

Before my observations, I would just like to say a big congratulations to your girlies for securing their new jobs.  How good is it that D24 has identified what she needs to do for herself and has taken steps to make it happen?  Alongside you, this is a great example to D22 as well.

Ok, so step 1 = take a deep breath.  You are taking on a lot of the energy that is swirling around you at the moment, which is super common for mamma's in particular I think (correct me if I am wrong Gents).  I am proud of D22 for finally starting to speak up about her discontent with her dad.

It's all such a muddle. And the hard part is that because she's avoidant she would prefer not to talk about this to try to fix it. She'd rather just whinge at me occasionally and have me nod and agree and then just go about our business again, ignoring it all. We all know how bottling these things up goes though don't we?!

I actually think that this is exactly what she wants you to do.  The more nodding and silence she receives from you, the more she might speak and, ironically, feel heard.  She's probably aware of how much you still love her dad and how that leads you to sometimes protect his reputation? and their relationship from the consequences of his actions.

I can understand your fear about her reaction to him potentially wanting to spend more time with you in the future and I really applaud you for recognising that and saying it out loud...Bravo.  I will say, that when ( ) he is in the right mental place to do that, he will likely be more recognisable to her as a father figure too and kids are super forgiving (sometimes when they shouldn't be).  There hasn't been anything traumatic that has happened between your kids and their dad so the relationship is certainly repairable.  You might be at a greater risk of damaging this possibility and also your current relationship with her by trying to protect their relationship right now.  Trust her to let it fall apart for a while and she will hopefully trust you to put her first if he comes back around.

I think that it's nice that you invited H to this dinner tonight for D24.  I wonder if it might have been better coming from D24 because she was the one who wanted him there?  I am just thinking that if D22 is dealing with some disappointment in H at the moment, she might feel a little less like seeing him and maybe also that you sided with D24??  Sided is definitely the wrong word but I know you are trying to be very sensitive to D22's complicated feelings about a few things at the moment.

I think you have done a fabulous job of paving the way for H and as such, I think you can be confident that he knows you are a friendly, trustworthy, soft place to land that he chooses not to use at the moment.  . Until that changes, keep taking deep breaths and letting the things that need to fall apart do so.

You've got this Ever.  I hope the dinner celebration is going super well and you are having a fab time

xx

Thanks you H&F (and thank you also UM for your comments).

I did take a big breathe and I was fine. To clarify, D22 didn't come to the dinner (she had leaving drinks for the girl that she's replacing). But even if she was there, she wouldn't have minded if her dad came. It's not that she doesn't want to see him. She just doesn't want to have to go to 'their' house every time to see him and have to see the OW as well. And re me asking him, I felt that as I was arranging the dinner it was important for H to feel like he was actually invited (and not just by D24). Also, it was D24 that asked me to ask him.

I actually think that this is exactly what she wants you to do.  The more nodding and silence she receives from you, the more she might speak and, ironically, feel heard.  She's probably aware of how much you still love her dad and how that leads you to sometimes protect his reputation? and their relationship from the consequences of his actions.

Thank you sooo much for this. I think you might be right and I will take your advise here. xx

Re me calling him, I had a hair appointment earlier in the day and I decided on the spur of the moment on the way there to call him to let him know it'd be nice if he could get there. The convo I had with D24 and another I had with SIL2 the other day made me worry a bit that he was in a bad place mentally. We had a nice conversation. I told him that D24 would like him to be there but I'd also like him to come. He said he'd try but probably wouldn't get there in time.

I asked him if he was OK and he did his usual 'Oh I'm fine! You know, stressed at work because of so much pressure and smoking too much but it'll be fine in a few weeks when I'm not working away from home any more'. He then asked how I was (he asked me that last year too, so 2nd time in 4.5 years lol). I told him he could always call if he needed someone to talk to. He very sincerely said that he 'very much appreciated that'. Then... as we were saying goodbye... I said 'OK, love you, bye' out of reflex.  And he replied 'Love you too' double  Hahaha it's just sooo weird. I still feel like I'll go home and he'll be there. It feels like he feels like that maybe as well. Just nuts.

So then I had a lovely night out with all the combined families. We took a nice group pic and SIL2 sent a message after asking me to send her the photo. So I sent it to her and H as well. Told him we had a lovely night, that I (as he'd asked) told everyone he said hello. And that I was 'proud of our chicken'. Was feeling all good about our contact and the night. Then I saw on FB that he'd wished his Aunt a Happy BDay (I did as well) and commented on the restaurant that she went to with 'It's great there. OW and I went there recently'. Hahaha, bucket of cold water and good reminder that that relationship is still very much alive. As you say though H&F, I def bounce back better and more quickly than I used to. So I'm fine today.

And again I trudge on!! xx


 

[UrsaMajor]

Hi Ever,

In my reply re: the invite, I missed that D24 had asked you to invite (x)H and in that case, I see no issue there.

(x)H's R with OW seems .... hmmmmmm ... how should I say it.... odd? but, that is not your circus, not your monkeys.

MLC is an ultra-marathon slog through the mud so ....

It is what it is and you are getting back to equilibrium faster and faster so now it is on (x)H to decide on whether or not he chooses to get his head out of his .... fog... or not...

[Evermore]

Just journaling a little because these few weeks in the year are always thinky and trigger-potential times for me.

Life in general continues on, and whilst I still miss him every day, I THINK? I am feeling a little more 'used to' my new life? So I am faring much better this year than the past few years. I still would like him to 'come around' but I am doing OK. Finally more on the 'other side' of this I think (for now anyway... loads of potential to get sucked back in!!  ).

It would have been our wedding anniversary (24 years) on the 20th, and yesterday was the 27th anniversary of us officially getting together. Yesterday was also 28 years I've worked at my job (that I love!). As has happened in past years H saw this (about my work anniversary) on LinkedIn (which I never use) about a week ago and sent a 'congratulations' message (on LinkedIn). No one else ever does, as I said, I never use it. That message appeared as an email in my normal inbox. It featured H's profile pic... which is a close up of him and cOW. Lovely. At least I can laugh about that kind of thing now. I must be much better. 

I know we shouldn't be pondering the 'why' of these things. But I do wonder whether he remembers our anniversaries, sees all the old memories popping up on FB from past happy celebrations between us (there are many and he is tagged or wrote them himself so they would come up in his newsfeed) and because he could never comment on those other anniversaries (no way he would go there!), he instead compensates by commenting on my work anniversary. I'm pretty sure he doesn't use LinkedIn very much either (but who knows, maybe he does these days). And of course he still 'likes' most of my FB posts (and sometimes comments).

The other 'this time of the year' things coming up are my BDay (on 2nd), Easter (which was always our families most loved camping holiday time), and Mothers Day (it's in May in Aus). I know I will receive a HBD and HMD message from him on each of those days. And I know it still doesn't mean anything.

On Easter Sunday we're all (his family which is still my family  ) going to B & SIL2's house for a BBQ. I'm picking FIL up and bringing him out (he's 96 now, 97 in July!). SIL2 made a messenger chat group to invite everyone (as she always does), but I'm not in it because she still has me blocked so can't add me... it's all so weird, we actually kinda joke about it now. D22 let me know about the group and that SIL2 started it by announcing the date and time and saying that I was picking Pop up and bringing him out. H and cOW ARE in the group and I know she wrote that so it was obvious from the get-go that I was going, lol. She confirmed yesterday when we were doing a bit of organising for the day that that's exactly why she said it, hehe. If H wants to go I'll go for a while and then go home and let him and cOW attend.

It doesn't bother me as much as it did. I know very clearly now that my kids, and increasing his family, who were 'OK' with her previously, prefer not to spend time with her if they don't have to. I feel a bit sorry for H because of this. Consequences and all that I know. But what if he is very happy with her and they are 'meant to be' and everyone loathes her and doesn't want to spend time with him/them because of that (and it's partly because they love me)? I know not my problem. But I do love him and do wish him well.

Having said that (what if they're 'meant to be'), it still doesn't FEEL that way. It feels like there is a clock ticking on H and cOW. But how would I know. I thought we were happy!     

[UrsaMajor]

Having said that (what if they're 'meant to be'), it still doesn't FEEL that way. It feels like there is a clock ticking on H and cOW. But how would I know. I thought we were happy!     

"Meant to be" like "Meant to have a root canal without Novocain?"

As for H and cOW.....

[Evermore]

I guess time will tell UM!

[Reinventing]

Having a picture of cOW with him on LinkedIn is, to me, a sign of her attempting to claim him and insert herself through social media.

Most people have a business picture of themselves alone. Its not facebook.

[UrsaMajor]

Having a picture of cOW with him on LinkedIn is, to me, a sign of her attempting to claim him and insert herself through social media.

Most people have a business picture of themselves alone. Its not facebook.

My thoughts exactly.... That's why the Time Bomb GIF..... LinkedIn/Xing are business platforms and not FakeBook/Instagram/etc.

[KeepItTogether]

Meant to be. Oh He!! no.

I agree with Reinventing--NO ONE has a significant other on their LinkedIn profile.  That reeks of desperation. I would be mortified.

Not that it is a hard and fast rule, but most relationships that begin as affairs are riddled with problems. My H and OW had a super volatile relationship. Always breaking up and getting back together. Like high school. It is constant drama. It must get exhausting.

I am vacationing with my inlaws as well. OW was never invited. Petty as it is, we deserve that little bit of validation.

You are doing great.

 

[Evermore]

Thanks KIT. 😊 (I’m so sorry to read about the loss of your MIL. My MIL was an incredibly lovely lady and I was devastated when she died. As you say, it speaks volumes about the person you are that you are so close still with your in-laws.)

I do feel like I’m doing pretty well these days. I still get tripped up when ‘stuff happens’. But I get back up very very quickly these days.

It was my birthday last Sunday and I was expecting a generic text from him. Instead it was a super generic FB post. The absence of ‘Xx’ in that post was, to me, very obvious and made me sad. He includes Xx’s to EVERYONE these days… except me. As H&F pointed out to me, that in itself is telling. 😏 So I was sad for a bit that morning. But I got over it quickly and had a lovely (if weird, more in follow up post) Bday. 😊 (and also, many people commented HBDay to me on his post to me so it would have kept popping up in his notifications for days, hahaha, that cheered me up)

Re the LinkedIn profile pic, I agree it’s weird to have that kind of pic as your profile on that platform. It’s the reason I think he doesn’t use LinkedIn much, if at all (in the industry he works in it’s not used much).

Years ago he changed his FB cover pic at the same time he ‘announced’ them on social media (there was a delay in this announcement... as though delaying it meant he could make everyone forget it’d been going on with them before he toddled off from me 🙄). It’s a collage of ‘their’ dog, ‘our’ dogs, and the pic of him and her (that’s also the LinkedIn pic). For a brief minute that same day he also changed his FB profile to the pic of him and her. It was literally only a few minutes! And then he changed it back to the one he had before (him and our two girls  when they were little). It felt like he’d done it by mistake or panicked that he was being too overt, too publicly ‘in your face’ about his ‘new love’. He hasn’t changed FB pics since then and very very, if ever, posts anything now. Hasn’t for several years. (It’s the reason I am ok with being ‘FB friends’. If he starts posting anything it’ll be a quick unfriend from me.)

I’m sure that was the same day he set up the LinkedIn profile. So I’m not surprised he’s using that pic there. It would have felt safe to do that there. Maybe it was to appease her? I get the impression though that it was more of a high school-ish ‘look at me, I got a new girlfriend’ impulse at the time. But I think that part of him was sensible enough to realise that flaunting that pic on FB would not go down well at all with friends and family. Having it as part of a collage in his cover pic (which no one sees unless they go to his page), but not his profile pic (which everyone sees wherever he comments/posts) kind of water it's significance down.

He’s very sensitive to the reactions of others. It’s why he lays so low these days. He knows he has lost a lot of respect. I think the ‘happy work anniversary’ messages he sends me through LinkedIn feel a ‘safe’ thing to do. Mentioning marriage or ‘get together’ anniversaries (which occur at the same time) would feel very very unsafe for him.

I think he lives on a tightrope, always afraid to make a wrong move that will show himself and others that he made the wrong decision, that he did a bad thing, that he has stuffed up his life etc. It must be exhausting. He camouflages with bravado. But I see through it (and so do many of our family/friends, including our girls). I’m so sad for him. I keep wanting to yell at him: pull it together, grow up already! I know everyone here knows that feeling!! And we toddle on (I feel like I’m toddling these days instead of trudging! That’s an improvement!).

[KeepItTogether]

Those seemingly innocuous "HBD" messages are huge triggers. As you say, without the "xx", it seems spiteful. But then, he also sent the message. Makes us question EVERYTHING.  Yours went from clinger to semi-vanisher. Mine did the same. But always with these little anchor checks every so often. They do it to see where we are. Take the temp. Remind us they are still there. And in a way, to make sure we are right where they left us. Even if we aren't. It is exhausting, especially when we read into it. Which is something I do every single time. Getting better though.

My H committed to his new life and told so many lies that now that he wants to "go back to his old life" he is finding it challenging. Mostly b/c he likely told everyone we were divorced. Now what? Takes an inordinate amount of humility to get through that one. And maturity. which I do not think they have.  SO they go with it as long as they can until they can't. And who knows when they get there. If ever.

The tightrope analysis is spot on.

[Evermore]

So my birthday day weirdness: (I will try to be brief, but I'm not very good at it, sorry, TL:DR: they say things come in threes).

1) D22 and my mum took me for lovely brunch on the morning of my BDay. Extra D22 works at the cafe we went to so I could see her too (D24 and SIL had had a very big night the night before (wedding) so weren't up to coming). Whilst they were ordering for me my Dad called me. After he wished me a HBday I asked how he was and he said he was ok... but that he was in ICU in hospital because he'd had emergency surgery the day before to remove a portion of dead bowel!!! AND that his heart had stopped during the op and they'd spent 3 minutes doing CPR to bring him back!!!

He's apparently fine now and on the mend. It's still shocking though that he bloody nearly died and I didn't even find out until the next day! Good one dad. I have a weird relationship with my Dad. We're kinda close... but very distant at the same time. I've spoken to him more this year than I have in many years (because he had a heart scare in Jan). Some years I might only have spoken with him one time. He does live 700km away (but this is Aus where that is just a weekend trip!). More and more I feel like the relationship my kids have with H is morphing from very close and also very involved/interactive, to the same kind of distant relationship I have with my dad. A very sad thing and something I would have bet a trillion dollars wouldn't have happened.

2) D22 and I then went to the Gold Class cinema that night (where you sit in pairs of recliners and there's only 12 sets of them and a waiter bring you food and drinks through the movie, it's so cool! We love it.). We saw (well mostly saw...) the new Dungeons and Dragons movie (I highly recommend) and sat right at the front in the middle (we're weird and love to sit there so that we feel like we're IN the movie).

About 3/4 the way through we could hear someone talking loudly on their phone and were like, WTF? D22 peered behind us and the poor man directly behind us was having some sort of episode! He was unconscious and the lady talking was a cinema staff member on the phone to the ambos. After about 5min they stopped the movie and asked us all to head to the waiting area. The ambos came with a stretcher and went in. After about 10 min they came and told us that they were going to refund us all but sorry, they were cancelling the movie (understandably!). Those poor poor people. His wife must have been beside herself. I still don't know the outcome (hoping he was OK).

3) There was an earthquake in a neighbouring town. I didn't feel it as I was driving at the time; and it was only pretty small (but still got social media buzzing! LOL); but I'm using this as my '3rd thing of 3' to get rid of the 'things come in threes' ju-ju!!!

So that was my weird BDay. It was a lovely day for me (just not such a great day for others). Also last night all my girlies (and 2 of their partners) took me out to dinner. It was rowdy and loud and fun. They're such great people. H is missing so much of this family time. Silly man.

[Evermore]

Those seemingly innocuous "HBD" messages are huge triggers. As you say, without the "xx", it seems spiteful. But then, he also sent the message. Makes us question EVERYTHING.  Yours went from clinger to semi-vanisher. Mine did the same. But always with these little anchor checks every so often. They do it to see where we are. Take the temp. Remind us they are still there. And in a way, to make sure we are right where they left us. Even if we aren't. It is exhausting, especially when we read into it. Which is something I do every single time. Getting better though.

My H committed to his new life and told so many lies that now that he wants to "go back to his old life" he is finding it challenging. Mostly b/c he likely told everyone we were divorced. Now what? Takes an inordinate amount of humility to get through that one. And maturity. which I do not think they have.  SO they go with it as long as they can until they can't. And who knows when they get there. If ever.

The tightrope analysis is spot on.

Yep, lots of similarities in our stories. I also think that my H (who actually isn't my H but whatever, apparently it doesn't matter either way, ask your H!) has made so many promises and told everyone how much he loves his new life, that backtracking on that will be very difficult for him. Maybe courage he doesn't have. If he ever even wants to. Unlike your H, mine has never said that he 'wants his family back' etc. It's all subtle messages, which yep, can drive us crazy. I think I'm also a bit better now at musing a little on these things but not letting them control my day to day. I know it looks here like it's all I think about and that I'm obsessing. But I'm really not. I don't talk to anyone IRL about it these days (well rarely). So you guys are it!

Re your H KIT and his dunk back into MLC-land, I had been hoping from your lack of posting that you were off, busy IRL working through stuff with him, and that things were going well. I'm very sad for you that it's all still so ridiculously messy and crap. I love love love how YOU are though. I hope one day to get to that 'meh, moving forward' calmness you have (and think I will, I can feel it sometimes). I'm also so glad you have such a great relationship with your S16 so you can help him dealing with his feelings/anxieties. Thank heavens for the stable parents!

[MadLuv]

So glad your Dad is on the mend. My Dad open heart surgery. Triple by pass and said NOT A WORD!!!  He recovered to then only get cancer again that he did not say a word until he was in the stage of it not being survivable. i still cant get past the craziness of it and he has been gone since 2005.

On relationships and repeating themselves..isn’t that crazy how you can try your best to break cycles And not repeat history to only find out in many ways we have no control of it? 

[Evermore]

Thanks ML. My dad is home from hospital now and sounds like he's on the mend, thank heavens.

Update: In true MLC form H has quit his job and I don't think has a new job firmly lined up. SIL1 told me last week.

It's normal these days that each month when our family health insurance premium comes out of our joint account (if you can call it normal that we still have family health cover and a joint bank account when we are D'd and he's living with cOW), that about a week into the new month I send a reminder text to xH (I'm practising so small x for now to get me used to calling him that  ). He always replies immediately and puts the money straight into the account. This month crickets. No money and no message.

I thought it was a bit weird so mentioned it to SIL1. That's when she told me that xH had just told her that he had quit because the stress of his job was 'impacting his health'. He's very good at his job but I'm sure it would be very stressful (he's a site manager for large construction/civil projects often in charge of 20 or more tradies). I had thought though that this particular job was perfect for him and that he would be staying there for a long time. It's a smaller family-run company and he was in charge of everything. It would have been less paperwork (which he finds very stressful) and apparently he got on very very well with the family owners.

So I'm actually very surprised that he's quit. Apparently he's going to be contracting/subbying. That is possible to do in his line of work. But it's not at all stable work. Going from a stable income to that kind of instability in this financial climate would obviously be very stressful. And also remembering that he and cOW are only renting which would make that instability even more stressful. It's quite telling of his current mental health therefore that he just couldn't stay there and chose the stress of financial instability over a stable job.

He's already bought a new car (because he had a work ute and therefore no vehicle after leaving). It's only a cheap sedan (rather than a big ute which is always his preference in vehicles). That and not paying the health insurance money (and not even messaging me) is pretty telling about his current finances. Sadly everything looks to be very much unravelling for him right now. He's obviously feeling embarrassed about that because he hasn't told our girls or FIL, and I'm not sure if he's told BIL and SIL2 (they might know but usually SIL2 would tell me those types of things and I've seen her/talked with her quite a bit the past few weeks).

I know many will say 'consequences' and all that but I'm so sad for him. And worried about him. I hope he can get himself sorted. I was saying to my dear H&F the other day that for the past year I've felt this 'neutral' vibe from him. This time last year (April and May) he turned towards me a bit. We had a lot of interaction and he even made a pass at me. Then in July/Aug last year I could feel him turned away again to a more 'neutral' stance. But this past month or so it's felt like he's turned further away from me, like he has his back to me. I was wondering why that was and now I guess I know.

[xyzcf]

Things are not linear in the world of MLC. Sometimes they may seem as though they are coming closer, only to turn away. It is very confusing for us.

I have experienced times that we spend together, several days and when that time ends, like clockwork, he will become distant. He withdraws contact. It has happened so many times  that I now expect it will happen, I am prepared  for it. I learned that these times do not mean he is turning back towards me. It is a difficult lesson but acceptance helps me to continue moving along with my life, my hopes and plans.

It is understandable that you worry about him. In your mind, he doesn’t seem to be making good choices.

But as you already know, there isn’t anything that  you can say or do. He is on his own journey as are you.

I hope that you can get the money needed to cover the monthly medical insurance for you and your family.

[Evermore]

It is understandable that you worry about him. In your mind, he doesn’t seem to be making good choices.

But as you already know, there isn’t anything that  you can say or do. He is on his own journey as are you.

I hope that you can get the money needed to cover the monthly medical insurance for you and your family.

Yes, I do know there's nothing I can say or do. I still worry though. But it doesn't stop me living my life and moving forward, so that's progress.

(Re the health insurance money, it's not an issue for me. He will pay eventually.)

[Treasur]

I'm practising so small x for now to get me used to calling him that 

Well done on this ^^^
Many of us had a time when we found the words that go along with this experience hard. I remember a time here in 2016 when newscasters would use the word ‘divorce’ in the context of Brexit and just the word would make me shake....
But it is a reflection of reality - regardless of how you feel about him - and imho recovery is best built on factual realities. So, well done you!

Can you cover the health insurance costs on your own if his financial situation does not improve?
It isn’t fair, of course, but other LBS here have been in similar situations and chosen pragmatically that it is best for their peace of mind to work round it rather than get lawyers involved to enforce obligations from an MLCer.

[Evermore]

I'm practising so small x for now to get me used to calling him that 

Well done on this ^^^
Many of us had a time when we found the words that go along with this experience hard. I remember a time here in 2016 when newscasters would use the word ‘divorce’ in the context of Brexit and just the word would make me shake....
But it is a reflection of reality - regardless of how you feel about him - and imho recovery is best built on factual realities. So, well done you!

Can you cover the health insurance costs on your own if his financial situation does not improve?
It isn’t fair, of course, but other LBS here have been in similar situations and chosen pragmatically that it is best for their peace of mind to work round it rather than get lawyers involved to enforce obligations from an MLCer.

It's definitely something I'm not enjoying. But yes, necessary

Re the health insurance, yes I can afford to cover the fee. It's not at all enforceable anyway (in fact I've asked him in the past several times if he'd like to remove himself from the policy but he's always refused. If he wanted to it would be simple.). So I'm fine with continuing to pay for now.

[Treasur]

I sometimes feel that part of our role here is to model compassion until other LBS get the hang of self-compassion  and one of the basic blocks of self-compassion is noticing our own, or someone else’s, achievements no matter how small it might seem in normal life sometimes, isn’t it? Those small things can be really quite big steps in our own recovery.  Along with changing how we talk about ourself to ourself to something honest but kinder  . I know that I needed a lot of kindness - and then self-kindness - after an extended life experience that was so very unkind.

Great that his contribution is not necessary.....perhaps it may even be a time to start considering changing some of those residual links to an xH if you feel ready and if it does not financially hurt you? Bc, you’re right, it may be a bit odd to maintain a joint account post-divorce? Tbh I think for most of us the real process of emotional detachment really kicks off post-divorce bc it reflects a factual reality of how life is.....and often those small residual parts of an old life helps us do detachment as we begin to experiment with feeling our own version of detachment.  Imho same goes for those ‘windows’ into what he is doing via your SiL.....it creates a feeling of worry for you but as xyzcf said, and you know, there is nothing at all that you can do about his choices and your opinion of them is not likely to be giving you anything useful in your own life perhaps.

I do think it is possible to tuck away some feeling of love and compassion whilst also detaching from having any role to play in their life as it stands....but for many of us, that needs a bit of time, distance and perhaps not knowing what they are doing in their new life? It’s like breaking a habit, I think......small steps, bit by bit, replacing it with a new habit until the new habit feels more familiar, much like changing any other old habits that no longer serve us so well maybe  And it seems pretty reasonable to me that decades of an old way of doing things might take a good bit of time to chip away at, right?

[Evermore]

Thank you so much for your thoughts T, as always. I’ve carefully considered my options, and I’ll continue to do so going forward. At this stage I’m happy to keep the joint account and the joint health insurance as it benefits my girls to have the family cover and for their dad to be contributing. Once they turn 25 they’ll no longer be on the policy and I will make the changes then to separate the family policy. I know people have different views on this than me but this works for me. It’s not stalling my emotional recovery to continue this link with him. I am forever linked through our children and our family, because his family is truly my family as well (and also the reason I will always find out what he is doing, our osmotic grapevine is strong). It might be easier to detach and start a new life if I didn’t have such close ties with his family. But that’s not my reality. And as we all know, we need to work with the way things are. I know it must seem odd to people who aren’t so close to their in laws. Again with this I’ve considered my options and I’m ok with the current situation. I’m definitely on the right track for me. Thanks again for your thoughts. I’m not dismissing them in any way and they help me to plan ahead. It’s just not time yet. I’m sure there will come a time to disentangle further. It’s just not that time yet for me.

[Reinventing]

Evermore, they really do have to blow up every part of their lives, don't they? Sounds like he had a really good job that he used to like.

[Treasur]

Makes complete sense, Ever.
You know what works best for you and when/if you feel ready to do anything differently. X

[Evermore]

Evermore, they really do have to blow up every part of their lives, don't they? Sounds like he had a really good job that he used to like.

They sure seem to. He had a really good life that he used to like as well. Threw that away too. 

[MadLuv]

It might be easier to detach and start a new life if I didn’t have such close ties with his family. But that’s not my reality.

  evermore, I have stayed in contact with my XH family. They live in another state, but the one my kids were born in which we have season tickets to NFL games. I invite them to a game or meet up with them. My XH hasn’t made any attempts except a holiday text to stay in contact with them. I have told my X-BIL that I understand that my XH is his brother, but my kids are his niece and nephew as our his kids my kids cousins. As long as I can get them all together I will do so. If at any point my XH decides to engage and I need to step back then I will.

 My XH brother and family are coming for a weekend this summer and staying with me. It was his kids first choice when they asked them where they wanted to go when school out.  It does sometimes give me some anxiety moments as I know XH should be there and it is odd, but I have made it very clear that there are no sides. I want my XH to reconnect with everyone. I am just trying to keep the family connected the best I can and I know at some point my XH if he remains with OW then he will have to introduce her and her kids. My SIL said. i have no desire to meet her ( that was music to my ears if I’m honest)

My Dad did the same. I would not have seen my cousins or relatives on my Moms side after she left in her MLC if it weren’t for my Dad. He also had built decades of relationships with my Moms family and he loved them. So, I think as long as there is still love why should you cut people out. Everything can and should be determined by what it brings you and if it ever gets uncomfortable then you can change your contact then. I am all for living with the NOW!!

[Evermore]

MLuv, sorry I didn't reply earlier. Thanks for sharing that you're also close with your in-laws. I am also living with the now. But boy it's hard sometimes.

A couple of weeks ago I helped SIL1 move FIL into what was to be 4 weeks respite care. He's nearly 97 and has been living alone in a small unit. Lately he's not been taking very good care of himself (he's one of those 'I'm fine, I can look after myself!' type people who finds people helping him embarrassing) and he's now very frail. So SIL1 arranged for this respite care that could possibly lead to a permanent move into assisted/nursing home care if he chose. He has previously been adamant that he didn't want to go into care but after a few episodes where he had no choice but to accept help with things like dressing (eg couldn't pull his pants up to dress to go out and I needed to help him), he decided he quite liked the idea of a 'holiday' in respite. The day we moved him over I was a bit emotional driving to the care home. But when we arrived and set him all up in his lovely big room and he was so happy there, I was feeling much better about it. I think I was emotional because it's one of those significant life-stage things isn't it, going into care. One step closer for him, kinda thing.

He decided that day to stay permanently and we're all very relieved. That has meant giving notice on his unit and having to clear it out and clean it. Despite having government-provided cleaners into the unit several times a week, it was always still pretty cluttered and grotty. I went to SIL2's yesterday evening to see her (she's been away for 3 weeks) and walk the dogs. She let me know that there's a family chat conversation (that SIL1 instigated) about going there Saturday to clear things out and clean. So as usual I get that 'left-out/things hidden' feeling/trigger. One of those hard things I was referring to about still being so close to the in-laws. 

I asked SIL2 who was in the group to check if my kids were so I could make sure they saw the messages (they mute family chats most of the time, as young people do, they don't care for all the oldies bantering about things they're not interested in  ). As usual I also wondered if the OW was included in the group chat. I KNOW I should mind my business and should learn to be OK with her being included in that type of family thing. But I still find it painful. I would like to find out that she's NOT included, because then I feel better. But when I find out she IS included I feel squirmy and hurt. I just keep trying to work on dealing with these feelings. If I want to continue the relationships with my in-laws I know I need to just learn to live with these feelings. the alternative is NC with them and I know that's not what I want (and I know they don't want that either). It's a crappy situation and we're all dealing with it the best we can. 

I had already arranged with SIL1 to go today and help her clear some stuff away (pre-SIL2 telling me about the Sat chat thing). So we did that and there were more little triggering things I had to deal with. H has been there clearing out some of the books. All the family photos that were up have been taken across to FIL's new home... except the couple that had me in them (one very old one of H and me and one of H, me and the girls). I felt squirmy about it and didn't know if it was Hs doing or someone else. I felt compelled to ask SIL1 but also felt bad for 'making it all about me' (SIL1 is feeling a bit pressured and strained about the move, I'm sure for the same reason I was emotional about it the day we moved FIL).

I know in the bigger scheme these little things don't matter. But I'm sentimental and very much value the relationship I have with FIL. It gave me those 'abandoned' vibes to have my photos left behind. I did ask SIL1 about whether I should take them across and asked gently why they were left behind. She said she was the one that had taken the others. She said she didn't feel up to dealing with the politics involved and thought it easier to leave to someone else to decide about the ones with me in them. I would guess that's because OW will be involved in the moving etc and whilst she loves me and doesn't want to hurt me, she also loves her brother and doesn't want to hurt/offend him either. None of this is easy to navigate for anyone right now.

The other thing that had me feeling sad this arvo was simply the throwing away of so much of FILs life. He was a person who saved every receipt, diary and scrap of paper (not important life journaling, just records of Dr appointments and cleaning lady visits etc for YEARS). He can't take it with him and no one wants all that stuff so in the bin it all goes. Plus there were many books, ornaments and other things that, although they're not actually junk, no one wants. So in the bin with all that as well. It made me recall how traumatised I felt (feel, really) about my H so casually throwing his life, OUR life, away. Because it no longer had any value to him. It's all so hard still to come to terms with. Our life together was just so so valuable TO ME. It's so devastating still to know I am the only one that feels that now.

As I said, I know these are just temporary flash-back feelings and I will again move forward and get through all these squirmy feelings. Nothing else to be done. I just wanted to tell people that I know will understand how sad I'm feeling right now.

[Evermore]

Journaling:

I've just found out that I'll be going full time at my 'real job' as of July. So yay!

I was 0.8 (4 days a week, 8 days a fortnight) at this job (where I've been for over 28 years). Post-BD I needed extra income (at that stage I was 0.7) so got another 0.3 job to make me up to FT. It's been a great job but compared to my 'real job' I find it kinda boring. I have been aiming for FT at my 'real job' for several years (but as it's a Not For Profit and due to the nature of the business, it wasn't surprising that they couldn't afford to give me extra days over Covid). SO I'm really happy to finally be back to FT (I used to be FT many years ago but dropped down to part time when I had kids, and they weren't in a position to give me FT again until now).

What surprised me a little was that I've been a bit sad to have to resign my 'other job'. I mean, it's what I wanted, so I should just be completely happy, right? I think though that these days any form of big new 'loss', even when I've been the one to instigate the loss, is a little distressing. It's not a major thing but I find it interesting the tentacles that so much loss extends forward into our lives. I'm not the same person and I view the world differently these days. I know it's the same for most of us. I've always been a sentimental person but now it's more than just sentiment that makes me want to hang on tight to things that had importance even when they are no longer needed. It's about safely and security now (that little Lucy the Lizard brain that T talks about that's always trying to KEEP US SAFE!!).

Anyhoo... I told my manager at my 'other job' today that I couldn't stay on as of July. I said I'd tried of think of a way to squeeze some hours in so that I could continue on, even for a few days a month, but that all I could offer was one day a month (well, one day every 4 weeks) because I would be getting a Paid Day Off once a month at my 'real job' now that I would be FT. My manager jumped at the chance to keep me on, ticking through the work I've been doing for the past 3.5 years. So double yay. I'm really happy about this solution. It makes me feel safer to have the two jobs and not to have to lose my 'other job' completely.

Re H, same old, same old. Right now he's 'very far away' with very little contact. But of course I still osmotically now what he's up to through the family telegraph. He's apparently got another new job (I've completely lost count now on how many different jobs he's had since BD, but it'd be getting close to 10 I think). He hadn't paid his portion of the family health insurance for the past 3 months but did pay one lot the other day, so it looks like he's getting back on track. The being 'very far away' I know is mostly because he is embarrassed about not having the money to pay his portion. In true MLCer style, rather than just letting me know that he'd be behind for a bit because he was 'between jobs' he just said nothing (and didn't reply to my reminder texts - this never happens, he always usually replies). He's a silly man. But I miss him nonetheless.

In a couple of weeks there's a party for BIL (H's brother) 60th. It'll be another of those family functions that I badly want to attend even though there are triggers galore. I will make it work as it's better than the alternative. *sigh* On we toddle!

[MadLuv]

Congratulations on your job!! I get it is hard to give up the other job. It was part of your security in your life.  Not surprising on your H not communicating non-payment. Mine missed his alimony one week a couple months ago and said nothing. On day 5 I messaged and said do we beed to talk? And he called and his first words were. Yeah, I couldn’t make the payment. Ahh, duh? Hahaha     
They are avoidant beyond!!

[Evermore]

Just journalling.

The Ugly:
The party for BILs 60th birthday was a lovely time... until it wasn't (just for me, everyone else had a great time so that's good). It was a weekend long thing where we all went away to a fabulous, and huge, resort/house that is owned by SIL2's good friend. It's the same place we celebrated FILs 90th 7 years ago. That was before MLC but looking back it was definitely in the ramping up phase because xH was already distant and 'not quite himself' on that weekend. I noted it at the time but didn't realise the significance. So fast forward to now and we're at the same place. The (SIL2 hatched) plan was that I would attend on the Friday night and because OW was working all day on the Saturday, I would also stay for the Saturday day and leave early evening (before she got there). XH was going to be arriving mid-afternoon. D22 was going to be there with me on the Friday night and stay the Sat night as well (so she could see her dad, and Sat night was THE celebration when many other people were coming as well, D24 was supposed to go down on the Sunday (but that didn't eventuate)).

It was a really lovely night on the Friday night. Just me, D22BIL and SIL2 and 3 of their 4 kids (plus nephew's partner and her kids). Great night of eating and drinking and music and chatting. Sat morning we walked down to the beach (the massive house is set on over 100 acres on a cliff top right on the beach). Crazy SIL2 and x2 nieces even swam, haha (remembering I'm in southern Aus and it's middle of winter here so bloody freezing). We played board games and did a jigsaw puzzle together and the boys played some guitar. Just some lovely family time. There was an unexpected trip home (1 hour away) to go get Freddie (my dog) in the middle of the Friday night and another trip to drop him back home Saturday morning which was annoying but also funny, and it just added to the fun we were having (D22 came with me, it was nice).

XH arrived at 3pm (he'd said he was going to come at 2 but whatever, I would have been shocked if he'd turned up when he said he would! LOL). It was fine but weird. He came over and gave me the weird, wooden, sidewise-on 'polite' hug that I get these days when others are around. What became so weird to me after that was that here we were again in that same place that we had all been when we were still a WE. But instead I was in one of the rooms that had 3 single beds (D22 in another of them), and there was a double room put aside for the new 'WE', xH and OW (kinda across the hall from my room). We were all doing family stuff but I wasn't there with MY 'WE' family anymore and instead OW was going to be coming and sharing that room with him. It just all felt so WRONG.

And then at about 4pm the nephew's partner (only been with nephew 6 months so never around when I was with xH) said to me "Oh xH is here... but where is OW, is she here now as well?" The look of shock on my face was mirrored seconds later by the look of horror on hers when she realised what (and who) she'd asked. She's only known them as a couple and didn't twig for a second that I was who I was. She immediately apologised but I started to feel really anxious. XH was obviously (not just to me, SIL2 commented on it to me afterwards) staying out of my space on purpose. Which was fine but it felt like we both had these invisible force fields around each of us that pushed the other into other spaces as we moved around the house. It all felt a bit disjointed and weird.

At about 5pm other family/people started to arrive for the party that night. I started then to feel really anxious and like I wanted to leave. There was so obviously a pre-party vibe starting to happen and it made me feel yuck knowing I was having to leave the party so OW could arrive. So I went to the room I was staying in to get my things together. SIL2 was in there with a couple of friends who had recently arrived. She was showing them the room and telling them "Ever is going home soon because OW is coming so you can have this room". It's a funny shaped room (the whole house has weird angles all over so that each room has beautiful views over the ocean) with a long corridor bit as you enter formed by going past the ensuite. I was in that bit when SIL2 was talking (which is how I heard and why she didn't know I was there); and there were people in the hallway behind me (because everyone was bustling about going to their rooms). I felt trapped so ducked into the ensuite and burst into tears. I heard the woman with SIL2 say, 'oh so this is the bathroom' and then she opened the door. In horror I just looked at her sobbing and shut the door in her face.

After that I pulled it together enough to grab all my stuff and do a quick whip round to say goodbye/thank you to those that I needed to (not xH), and then skedaddled out of there! Sobbed all the way home, went straight to bed and cried myself to sleep. I really hadn't expected to have been so affected by having to leave. After all I've been having to do this for nearly 5 years now. I think the difference was that normally I'm leaving in the middle of a party (rather than feeling like I was being chucked out before it even began) and normally he's not there yet (and there's not a room there waiting for OW  ).

The Good:
The next day I had a first date with a very nice man (M). I've been seeing quite a bit of him since and I think I can see this relationship going somewhere good. It already feels quite 'solid' even though there's been no verbal acknowledgement from either of us about that. It just feels like a 'done deal' that we are exclusively seeing each other and will continue to see each other. I've met his 12yo son (who's adorable and ran up and gave me a hug when we met); and he's met my best (non-family) friend, and SIL1, BIL and xSIL, (isn't at all phased by how close I am to my X-inlaws). I've been feeling quite conflicted about all this, but the feeling is lessening and I'm just allowing myself to feel all the feelings and just going with whatever eventuates.

The Bad? (I'm not sure this is bad... maybe just an inevitable passage I need to travel):
I am feeling grief. Grief that if I go ahead with this relationship, and make a commitment, it will require giving up the option of having a relationship again with xH. It feels like a very big step indeed. The happy feelings I have when I spend time with M (he really is a very nice man) don't make me love or miss xH any less. But I KNOW I would be a fool after nearly 5 years to not take a chance of a new beginning with someone that really likes me, that I really like as well. There has been no movement towards me again after last year's blip from xH (I am getting better at calling him that). So I am open and honest with M about how I am feeling (we are taking it slowly but steadily forward). And I guess we will just see how it all unravels. I'm sure there are many more emotions yet that I will have to go through to get to the other side of feeling like this. I feel like I'm doing the right thing for me. The ache of missing xH is still there. I know it will whisper in my ear for a while yet. I will just acknowledge that part of me, and pat it, and hug it... but also move towards what my head says is the sensible road.

[UrsaMajor]

Hi Ever,

Yeah, that whole party thing is kind of ... well.... strange. I'd be surprised if it didn't take a whack at your nerves.

As far as xH goes and him being unhappy in his new life... Well, ... what can one say? His choices, his consequences.....

In terms of M and the future, it may not lessen the feelings for xH but, at the same time, there often (not always though) comes a point where the LBS decides that they wish to move forward with their lives and get involved in another relationship. That doesn't mean that they love the person formerly known as "Spouse" any less but they do realize that said person no longer exists and the likelihood that there will be a "new and improved" version coming out diminishes with the passing of time... so we grow forward in our lives in ways that feel right and good to each of us...

[xyzcf]

I read your post and felt sadness. You had to leave before she arrives...and yet, you have done nothing wrong. Totally get why you would have tears. Nothing about this is the way we wanted it to be.

I am feeling grief. Grief that if I go ahead with this relationship, and make a commitment, it will require giving up the option of having a relationship again with xH. It feels like a very big step indeed. The happy feelings I have when I spend time with M (he really is a very nice man) don't make me love or miss xH any less.

There is no timetable for grief. The ability to recognize that grief and embrace life shows that we are healing. They were gone a long time ago and have repeatedly shown us that they do not want us....which for me is a hard thing to understand..intellectually I get it but the heart is a different matter.

I find the loneliness of not having a significant other in my life is  hard. Most of us I think are meant to share our lives with another. You have allowed yourself to open that door and maybe, this new chapter will bring you a good and enjoyable life. Doesn't mean you will forget your husband or not still bare the wounds of what happened....but healing can happen...and new love is possible.

Thanks for bringing us up to date.

[MadLuv]

Wow Evermore,

First give yourself soooooo much credit for making it through that situation/visit. I can’t even imagine honestly. This is all so difficult and I journaled recently on my XBIL and family coming and the first day just feeling so off and uncomfortable for me and that was without XH and OW/wife. It’s just not natural.

On dating. I still can’t. Not because I am not open to it or because of my XH, but the thought of untangling someone else with all my trust issues now seems daunting. I also don’t think dating closes the door for anything in the future if it is meant to be, but I do get that maybe for you ( a normal person thinking rationally ) that if you open your heart to someone else it would be hard to turn back. That is probably why we see OW or OM as our H or W being done, but of course they are not rational right now and are living on escape and emotions and not true feeling.

I feel like most of us that we were cheated of the partnership we had and deserved and we should have that. It’s just not so easy to start over ever and in this situation it makes it even harder. I think it’s great you found someone that is being so kind and patient with you. Letting you lead at a pace that you can handle. He sounds like a winner.

[Evermore]

I read your post and felt sadness. You had to leave before she arrives...and yet, you have done nothing wrong. Totally get why you would have tears. Nothing about this is the way we wanted it to be.

I am feeling grief. Grief that if I go ahead with this relationship, and make a commitment, it will require giving up the option of having a relationship again with xH. It feels like a very big step indeed. The happy feelings I have when I spend time with M (he really is a very nice man) don't make me love or miss xH any less.

There is no timetable for grief. The ability to recognize that grief and embrace life shows that we are healing. They were gone a long time ago and have repeatedly shown us that they do not want us....which for me is a hard thing to understand..intellectually I get it but the heart is a different matter.

I find the loneliness of not having a significant other in my life is  hard. Most of us I think are meant to share our lives with another. You have allowed yourself to open that door and maybe, this new chapter will bring you a good and enjoyable life. Doesn't mean you will forget your husband or not still bare the wounds of what happened....but healing can happen...and new love is possible.

Thanks for bringing us up to date.

Thank you XYZ, as always I'm grateful for your reply.

Our hearts are funny old things aren't they. It doesn't matter what we tell them to do they have minds of their own. 

My head knows new love is possible and that's why I'm moving forward as I am. My heart is currently divided. It will sort itself out, I am very resilient.

Re your words "They were gone a long time ago and have repeatedly shown us that they do not want us", I think the problem is that there are many signs that he does want to continue having a relationship with me. I know he is not indifferent to me. I know he still loves and cares about me. But I also know that, right now, he is not interested in spending any time with me and doesn't care what I am doing. What I DON'T know is if that will ever change. I've never been a gambler and think (my head talking) I'd be a fool to gamble my future. I always knew this might happen (that I might meet someone and have to make this decision), I told xH right at the start that the people I felt most sorry for were the future 'US'. The him that realised what he had thrown away; and the me that said 'sorry, you took too long'. Of course this relationship with M is not guaranteed. And it might fizzle out. But it feels even at this very early stage like it will be something that will last a while (which is just how I felt at the start with xH). I guess we will see.

What has surprised me, but at the same time not surprised me at all  is all the emotions that are swirling around in me. I feel all churned up and yet peaceful at the same time. Peaceful in my mind because I know I'm doing the right thing for myself. All the swirly stuff is coming from my poor little heart that is so so sad still at the loss of something so important.

[Evermore]

Hi Ever,

Yeah, that whole party thing is kind of ... well.... strange. I'd be surprised if it didn't take a whack at your nerves.

As far as xH goes and him being unhappy in his new life... Well, ... what can one say? His choices, his consequences.....

In terms of M and the future, it may not lessen the feelings for xH but, at the same time, there often (not always though) comes a point where the LBS decides that they wish to move forward with their lives and get involved in another relationship. That doesn't mean that they love the person formerly known as "Spouse" any less but they do realize that said person no longer exists and the likelihood that there will be a "new and improved" version coming out diminishes with the passing of time... so we grow forward in our lives in ways that feel right and good to each of us...

Thank you as always UM. Yes, I am trying to cautiously grow forward. As I said above, I know it's the right thing for me. As the great Bernard Fanning sings: "Well, life has a way that's unpredictable. But you can't stand and wait in on a miracle"

Speaking of Bernard, perfect song right now: https://genius.com/Bernard-fanning-yesterdays-gone-lyrics

And yes, his choices, his consequences. SIL2 said to me the other day that she feels like it's only recently that he's really understood what he has done (to me, to the girls, to the family) and what he has lost. But she also thinks that he has decided that he has made his bed and that he will just have to lie in it. I'm not sure what she bases that feeling on (I didn't ask). She was the one that not long after he left told me that it was serendipity and that he'd just fallen out of love with me and in love with someone else, and that that happens sometimes. Interesting that she has now changed her tune. I think it's likely because he has clearly not improved his life and the happy happy has long faded. As I've said before, I think it's possible that sometimes a MLCer will make a new life that is just 'good enough' that they prefer to continue on with that life rather than go through everything they would have to go through to turn back. If the new life is 'good enough' that they don't hit that rock bottom, it seems possible that they'll just skate along near bottom for a good long while. Sad but, it is what it is. 

[Evermore]

Wow Evermore,

First give yourself soooooo much credit for making it through that situation/visit. I can’t even imagine honestly. This is all so difficult and I journaled recently on my XBIL and family coming and the first day just feeling so off and uncomfortable for me and that was without XH and OW/wife. It’s just not natural.

On dating. I still can’t. Not because I am not open to it or because of my XH, but the thought of untangling someone else with all my trust issues now seems daunting. I also don’t think dating closes the door for anything in the future if it is meant to be, but I do get that maybe for you ( a normal person thinking rationally ) that if you open your heart to someone else it would be hard to turn back. That is probably why we see OW or OM as our H or W being done, but of course they are not rational right now and are living on escape and emotions and not true feeling.

I feel like most of us that we were cheated of the partnership we had and deserved and we should have that. It’s just not so easy to start over ever and in this situation it makes it even harder. I think it’s great you found someone that is being so kind and patient with you. Letting you lead at a pace that you can handle. He sounds like a winner.

Thanks Madluv. Grateful for the credit given. Like you I am still very close with my inlaws. They ARE my family. I've thought long and hard about the wisdom of continuing on with attending family functions. Each time I come up with the same conclusion. I would rather attend and deal with the yucky feelings than miss out on something I truly enjoy. I've got pretty good at it so it was a bit of a surprise how that party and having to leave it affected me. Oh well, I'm tough. I'll just keep getting back up and keep on trucking. I look back to how I was last year, the year before etc, and can see just how incredibly far I have come.

I think you'll know if you're ready to start dating again. For me I started not because I was looking for a 'romantic' relationship. I was instead looking for a friendship and for some nice people to go have fun with (dinner, beach, movies etc). You're right, dating doesn't close the door for a future relationship with xH. But committing to another relationship does (at least while that relationship lasts anyway). I'm sad (but not surprised) that you have trust issues. I hope you can deal with those and maybe find something new one day (if that's what you'd like). For me, I think I'm slightly weird. I completely trusted my xH... and I still do. I know that's crazy. I think it's because I am so convinced that he was so convinced that he was doing the right thing (that I didn't love him and would welcome separating) that I know what he did was nothing to do with me and how much he loved me. It was totally and utterly about him wanting to rid himself of his unhappiness. I think he's stupid, but not untrustworthy (again, I know that sounds crazy). The good thing about feeling this way is that I still trust myself. I have proven yet again that I can rebound (eventually!!) back to 'myself'. And I can therefore trust myself to open up to someone new. Doesn't mean I won't be hurt again. Just means I trust myself to keep getting back up no matter what happens. I think that's a prerequisite of starting something new. 

[PhoenixRising75]

Amazing for you both. A double edge sword blessing to be loved or even considered at all by you X-in-law family. My MIL reaches out every month to make sure I paid her CC and she can use it again. Otherwise, no contact from his family. Well, they f’d him up good and royal, so obviously it’s to be expected. 🤣 I guess try to find the blessings if that’s what works? Only your hearts can answer that, and I can only guess at how much it hurts. It’s good to be a good woman, wherever your heart takes you.

[Evermore]

I am very lucky that I still have a great relationship with my in-laws. I'm very grateful for their support. But yep, totally a double edged sword.

[MadLuv]

Evermore- I get the trusting your XH. I think for me is that I would never trust his coping skills. I know he knows he is coping wrong. It’s him. He misses his family. He is just weak emotionally and always has. That is what I cant trust on XH. Née relationships…it just has to happen organically.

Phoenix- my BIL came around eventually as he saw it for himself. I do feel fortunate, but I also wonder if XH engages in a real manner will I just be out. For them, my kids. Will everyone be so happy he is back that I get left behind. My BIL says I will always be family. Its all awkward with people who you have never felt awkward with.

[Treasur]

I am very lucky that I still have a great relationship with my in-laws. I'm very grateful for their support. But yep, totally a double edged sword.

It was brave of you, Ever. I’m pretty sure I couldn’t have done it.. not sure I would have chosen to tbh but my circumstances were very different. Most of us here can understand all those big messy emotions - in lots of ways it’s about so much more than ow isn’t it? - and I wonder how much of that people like extended family or ILs can really ‘get’ even when their intentions are good.

I wonder though if there is a way to blunt the double edged sword a bit in future by choosing to go to some events and not others, or celebrating some separately  where there is no need for you to shuffle out so ow can shuffle in.  I can see you value your ILs highly, and probably they you, but maybe it’s simply not possible to keep some things operating in the same way as they used to do. Particularly if the person paying the big emotional cost is you. Jmo.

[Reinventing]

Oh my goodness. We LBS can relate to all the emotions, anxiety, joys, sorrow of that situation at the house. That took a lot of strength to do.

And we can relate to looking to the future with someone, while still having this shared past and emotions with an xH that was. We have this one precious life to live and so we honor what that means for each of us.

This is such a hard road.

You did way, way better than I would have in that house situation, so give yourself some kudos.

[KayDee]

Yes, I agree with Treasure - food for thought for the future. Maybe you could host ILs on your home turf, doing something meaningful but separate, that is about your intimate relationships with them. I too felt uneasy for you having to exit like that, and it was obviously emotionally very hard. I have this yearly professional event in my sphere of work that I really don't like, but everyone kinda expects me to attend. To not attend seemed to be a negative sign of something or other. I used to plan another, more interesting thing to do when it came around. Subconsciously at first, then more deliberately. Now no one asks, so I can eat cookies and watch trash TV while its on, if I like.  It took off the pressure all round But top hats off to you E, you did it and you did it with grace.

[UrsaMajor]

As I've said before, I think it's possible that sometimes a MLCer will make a new life that is just 'good enough' that they prefer to continue on with that life rather than go through everything they would have to go through to turn back. If the new life is 'good enough' that they don't hit that rock bottom, it seems possible that they'll just skate along near bottom for a good long while. Sad but, it is what it is.

Isn't THAT the truth... Rather than face the consequences of their actions, do the work they need on themselves, make amends, their shame? guilt?  pride? will leave them accepting their new-found life despite it being much less than what they had expected/hoped/planned for.... They accept "good enough" (wasn't that usually a reason to leave in the first place? "Good enough was no longer enough?") ... Just have to wonder how long it will be before the new "Good Enough" is no longer enough THIS time.... because, until the Mid-Lifer deals with the demons within, they will always be searching or the next "good enough," the next external fix to their internal issues.... But, no matter how far or how fast they run away, there they are... They can't leave themselves behind....

[Evermore]

UM, wanna hear some irony? His motto is: No matter where ya are... there ya are. I am not making that up!

Thank you all for your caring words. I know your advice comes from a caring place.

Believe me, I have thought very carefully about what is best for me and what causes me less damage. I'm not just good friends with my in-laws. Our lives are very entwined (we talk, see each other at least several times a week) and we are closely bonded. My two SILs are closer to me than my 'real' sister. They are 'my people'.

Before each family function I weigh up the cost to benefit ratio of attending. These days I'm happy to wear the cost of a little yuck feeling afterwards in order to receive the joy and bonding I get from attending. I've gotten pretty good at it these days. SIL1 and 2 are always mindful of how I feel about it (they plan around me because they want me there as much as I want to attend)(SIL2 never would have said what she said if she knew I was in the room, and it's not like she was lying, she was just plainly explaining to the arriving couple). I was just a bit surprised at how I felt after this particular function. I hadn't counted on the past history of the place and the obviously waiting 'room for two' tripping me up. Ah well, we live and learn.   

[xyzcf]

Our husbands left us, cheated on us, lied to us and sent us into a crisis of our own.

This is on them, not their family.

Why do we have to lose more than we already have? Your in laws continue to be in your life and they want you in theirs. Although it might be uncomfortable and upsetting, over time you desensitize, because each time you see them together, you face the reality. It’s ok to be sad but you do not have to leave everyone else behind that you love.

Our daughter is coming to visit. Four days. There are two choices. I can have her stay here with me for the whole time and he can join us or I can see her for two days and he can see her for two days.

The next time I will see her is in November.

I will take the four days.

Like you, I think about this each time we get together as a family, for indeed we will always be a family. That has not been erased.

It used to be much harder but over time, I am fine with this.

No need to explain Ever, you are doing what your heart tells you is right for you.

[One day at a time]

Wow Ever, I really applaud you for being so brave and handling the situation so well. The emotions are normal and the situation really warranted them. We are all different and so are our situations. If you get joy and bonding by spending time with your ex ILs, then I can understand why you would like to keep attending. I wouldn't be able for it but then again, my xILs and I were never really close. I only still have a relationship with xSIL (married to xH's brother) but I don't attend any of her family functions. There's been communions, confirmations, etc since xH walked, and even though at the beginning it hurt me to be left out because I miss her girls and xSIL made it clear I was welcome to attend, I felt it wasn't right for me. I eventually stopped going to her house altogether because I couldn't stand having to chit chat with xH's brother like nothing had happened. So our relationship continues but in a different way. She visits me or we meet for food or coffee somewhere and that's how we made it work for us. I guess what I'm trying to say is that, as other people here have said, the relationship with your xILs doesn't necessarily have to end but you might want to consider options that limit the effect on you... Or maybe you don't want to change a thing and that's OK.

As for new relationships, well, I'm in one so I guess that shows where I stand on the matter. But my feelings about xH are still rather complicated. I see it as a death of sorts. I still love and miss the person he was, I miss how safe that relationship felt and the innocence of believing that he, the person who I loved and trusted the most, would never hurt me. I think at some point I understood that even if he got over MLC, the damage to that sense of safety and innocence had consequences and changed me as a person. What we had is gone, dead, there's no going back. So at least for me, it felt like keeping the hope of xH coming back was like hoping he would come back from the dead.. And that's the point where I felt I was ready to move on. Nearly 6 years from BD and I see no signs of him leaving the crisis behind, plus he's someone else's H now!!

I think us, LBSs, have this idea in our heads that if the MLCer "comes out of the tunnel", everything will be OK. And yet, story after story of reconnection/reconciliation in this forum show us that that path can be even harder than when MLC kicks off... And that is IF our former spouses finally get to a point where they see what they've done and decide to do something about it... Big IF (at least that's what I see in my case) 

So if a new relationship is what feels right for you now, I'd say go for it. I understand the grief you feel, I have gone through several stages of grief during my new relationship with massive meltdowns during my divorce in December and a lot of apprehension when he travelled with me to my home country. I see it as reminders of the life not chosen.. I always say I'm very happy with my life right now but I was forced to this new life, it was not my choice, I'm just making the most of it. You deserve a good life, it's up to you to decide what that looks like 

[Reinventing]

One day at a time, I kept finding sentences to quote from what you said, well written. Things have irrevocably changed for us. Our mourning that innocence is a big thing.

When I see happy couples, I have to redirect my thoughts when I wonder how many have had affairs. When I see a man in a vanity car, I wonder if they are out on their way to OW. When I read cards that use the word "forever", I say, yeah right, nice concept.

At work, there is a guy that I wondered if his second wife is an OW. And yep, heard how she first got his attention where they both used to work, and it was a total attention grabbing OW first move on a married man. She even supplied a bogus rationale for it that he told as part of his story.

When I finally met her, I smiled and said as I was shaking her hand, "I heard the story on how you got his attention when you both worked at X", and she got a bit defensive and gave the same dumb rationalization for it. Totally went over the guys head that I was calling her out in a socially acceptable way. I have to say that gave me a bit of satisfaction for naming it for what it was--a grab for his attention.

[UrsaMajor]

When I finally met her, I smiled and said as I was shaking her hand, "I heard the story on how you got his attention when you both worked at X", and she got a bit defensive and gave the same dumb rationalization for it. Totally went over the guys head that I was calling her out in a socially acceptable way. I have to say that gave me a bit of satisfaction for naming it for what it was--a grab for his attention.

[MadLuv]

Evermore- I like you am connected with XH family. Specifically his brother. I have known him since he was 14 and he is 50 now. My XH is not in Their lives except a text on holidays, so I am not sure I would be if XH was, but that would not ve by choice. I think as adults we shouldn’t have to choose. XH left. Do they also get to control out relationships with others?  So, you stay when you want, leave when you want, be happy with the time or cry after in sad and awkward moments. You wouldn’t go if you didn’t want to and you wont it you dont

I really hope my XH finds his way and like XYZCF we can do a family dinner here or there. His OW is making that impossible for now. That is my hope. I also agree with ONEDAY that I can’t imagine ever getting back with my XH. I could have handled him leaving, but the lies, betrayal etc. for years changed my feeling of safety with him. I NEVER could have thought, specifically after losing a child that he could put me through so much hurt. I also understand that if you understand it is MLC then you understand it’s not them. I get that. That is why I can forgive enough for friendship.

Again, good for you. For following your heart and also handling that whole situation so well.

[toomanytearss]

Following

[Evermore]

Just a little journaling.

It was 5 years since BD on Saturday. 5 YEARS!!!! I simply can't believe that. And it still all seems just as crazy to me today as it did on that day.

On Saturday I headed to M's house. I've been seeing him since the end of June and things are going very very well. He's a very nice man and not a red flag in sight so far. It feels like I've known him far longer than 2ish months. So weird that it's ONLY been that long. It's like a flip of how I feel about the 5 years! Weird weird weird.

I'm still slowly processing having to 'let go' of my hope at another go at my marriage one day. My head is aware that doing that is necessary however so it will happen. I'm allowing myself to process it in the way I always do these types of things (ride it out, feel the feels, don't suppress my thoughts/feelings, evolve).

At this stage it does feel like a 'done deal' with M, and that this will be long term. It's not that I'm maaadly in love/limerance. We just have so much in common and he ticks all the boxes in what I need in a partner (in general and right now considering my history). We've spoken about how the ending of my marriage was quite different to the ending of his. He's aware that I had hoped to reconnect and reconcile with xH. It all feels very right atm. And as long as it continues to feel that way I will keep heading in that direction.

And speaking of directions, an example of why this feels so right to be heading where I'm heading: on the way to M's house on Saturday (he lives 1 hour 15min from me) at the exact time that BD happened 5 years ago, I came around a corner on a very very windy stretch of road and there were several cars (about 10) stopped and pulled over all with their hazard lights on. A car that had just turned around slowly drove back past me and advised me that there had been a serious accident and that I needed to turn around (found out later motorbike vs ute and rider died at the scene, it had happened minutes before I got there  ).

So I turned around and headed back the way I'd come. I'd gone the 'back way' which meant driving through unfamiliar steep and windy countryside. I called M and told him I wasn't sure of best way to detour through. He was so lovely, googled best route, was concerned I drove safely. Called me back 10 min later to make sure I'd found the right road. It's not that xH wouldn't have done that as well, he would have. It's that he doesn't do that any more. He can hardly answer a text message these days. He is very far away, living the new life he's created. M asks how my day was (line from an Alanis Morisette song) and the reality is, xH might never want to do that again. I still love him. I still miss him. But I will keep heading where I'm heading.   

I had a lovely weekend (except my footy team lost a prelim final grrr). M's son (11) was home and we just hung out, watched the footy (Mal's best mate A and his wife came over), and on the Sunday we made a new veggie patch (including dog-proofing!) in M's backyard (with the help of A). It's all very relaxed and there is no pressure or dramas. Very nice.  Long may it continue.

Re my kidlets, D22 and I went to a 'Paint and Sip' thing on the Friday night (we painted a wave picture along with the instructor and sipped bubbles, very civilised). It was a lot of fun. The results look fabulous far away... but pretty dodgy close up! Hahaha. I posted several pics on FB and xH not only liked the post (as he often does) but each pic (which is a little unusual). As the painting thing was a gift from xH to D22 last year for her BDay I figured he was wanting to convey that he saw we had gone. The next morning D22 and I went and got our nails done together. While we were sitting there I said 'Oh and don't forget to let your Dad know and thank him, he liked all the pics on FB', and she said 'oh yeah he said something about it the other day'. As we'd only gone the night before I was a bit confused and said huh? She said 'when he was on the phone the other day he said 'so... who's the man in the pics with your mum?'. I then realised we had crossed wires and D22 was talking about a post I'd put up when M and I went to the footy last weekend (xH had liked the post which was weird but par for the course these days). There was a very nice pic of the two of us and I'd made it my profile pic (handy way of letting people know without having to let them know). It was quite funny (the mixed up convo) but also weird. D22 and I just both laughed. xH, no matter what he thinks of it all, will have his 'it's all fine' mask firmly in place. It's just how it is now.

D24's other half lost his footy prelim on Saturday so they were a bit sad but they called me on the way home and we had a lovely chat.

Sunday was extra-kid (D22 now 23)'s BDay. I sent her a message in the am and said to let me know when she was up so I could call her. But she called me and she asked where I was (was face-timing and she could see I wasn't at home) so I walked her around the house and introduced her over face-time to M and his son T (and dog Daisy). Afterwards she sent me a message that said: "You look so happy. Happy for you!! You deserve it." I have awesome kids.

Feeling very grateful that 5 years on I'm doing so well and feeling pretty happy with the new life I've carved out. All you folks here had a lot to do with that steady progress. I thank anyone that is reading along (as always).

(Oh oh! For TMT, my mare is due in about 6 weeks! Can't wait to see this foal. Hope it's a cracker).

 

[UrsaMajor]

Nice to hear from you, Evermore and I'm happy that things are going so well for you as you grow forward!

UM

[Reinventing]

Evermore, great to hear your update and how well you are doing. Thanks for sharing.

[xyzcf]

Nice to hear Evermore!

As I was reading your thread it occurred to me that M treats you like a normal human being would. Showing kindness, care and concern in a relaxed way. Contact with the MLCer isn't like that, unless they are wanting to reconcile.

You sound very "grounded" and I loved this:

"You look so happy. Happy for you!! You deserve it." I have awesome kids.

because there is something different in us when we have found happiness.....that "lost" look disappears.

Looking forward to hearing more of your story and about the new foal!

[hopeandfaith]

I am so glad that things continue to go well with M. I totally get your feeling that it just feels right because I got that same feeling for you when we last met. I did wonder whether there would be some comment from ex H about it.

I think you are gonna have yourself a fun and busy summer Ever!!

[MadLuv]

Evermore- I missed somehow you met someone, but so glad you are testing the waters and opening yourself up to what life is putting before you.  After all the crazy I think normal just might seem odd at first. I think also we can forget just how much we missed and maybe took for granted that normal. Enjoy!! You deserve it!!

[FaithWalker]

All caught up Evermore.  Probably getting closer and closer to your foal being born.

[Evermore]

All caught up Evermore.  Probably getting closer and closer to your foal being born.

Hello FW. Lovely to hear from you. Yes, my mare Charm is due at the end of the month (but horses have a 4 week 'window' so she's really due form mid-Oct to mid-Dec)!

Thanks also for the well wishes UM, Reinventing, XYZ, ML, and my dear F&H. Things are still going along very well with M. It still feels odd but I am getting used to my new normal slowly.

Some sad news: I had to book with the vet today to take our very old Staffy Bella (Boo) to be PTS this coming Saturday. She is very frail these days and still wee'ing all over the place (did I mention that in last update?). The medication we have tried on her to help with this hasn't worked so it's likely she has a bladder/kidney/liver etc tumour. Over the past several days she's gone off her food a little (very unlike her as she is normally ravenous due to the steroid treatment she's been on for the past year and a bit). I'm also quite worried that with the coming warm weather she will need to be stuck in my bedroom/ensuite section of the house (due to the wee'ing everywhere!) on very hot days and that just won't be OK. It's her birthday on Friday (15!) and I know it sounds silly, because she doesn't know, but I wanted to be able to give her this week and spoil her with roast chicken and all the treats she loves. I was thinking originally that I had a few more weeks but I think she will go down hill quite quickly now. As I have said in the past, better a day too soon than a day too late.

Bella is the last of 'our' family pets. So there is that whole layer to have to deal with as well as the simple sadness of saying goodbye to a much loved family member. I sent xH a message this morning letting him know. He has said that he will come to the vet with us on Saturday to say goodbye. It's going to be a sad few days.

I've been trying to catch up with everyone's stories but, as usual, I'm not very good at posting to people as I often can't think of the right words to say. I am thinking of all here though, especially those who have recently lost loved ones or who have sick family members.

[Reinventing]

Very hard to lose a pet. Thanks for doing the right thing by her and giving her all her treats this week. We'll be thinking of you.

I wholeheartedly agree with your quote about the timing.

[MadLuv]

I’m so sorry for your loss. I just loss out last pup last month we had together. I messaged my XH and he did not respond, but did pay half the vet bills. I’m glad that your XH showed up to say goodbye and showed some empathy. You are right also on the added layer. I lost both out dogs in the last year and it was an added  layer to process of an old life and connections slowing slipping away. You add that on top of just losing that unconditional love and another family member. It’s a hard loss. Wishing you well.

[toomanytearss]

It is so heartbreaking to lose a beloved pet. As others have said you are doing right by her. You are being a good pet parent even though the decision you have to make in her best interest is a sorrow for you.
I understand the last family pet. I have an 18 year old cat that her time is very near. The last of the family pets. But I have claimed her as mine for many years now as she has claimed me. It will be me and her when her time comes.
Man  th hugs to you.

[Evermore]

Thank you all for the love and hugs. It was a peaceful goodbye and it's been easier to deal with than I thought it might be.

xH met us (me and D22) there at midday but the vets were a bit behind and not quite ready so we spent a lovely half hour sitting in the grass together in the next door paddock in the sun while Boo wandered around. As it always seems these days it is not hard to see him, just weird because it DOESN'T feel weird.

When we finally went in they had the room set up with a nice soft blanket and Boo got cake and cream cheese and a chocolate (TimTam!) biccy (all of which she scoffed down). We were all there patting her as she drifted off to sleep and both xH and I cried soft tears (not D22, she rarely cries (have I shared the 'axe-murderer' story before, lol). After we said goodbye in the carpark and I got the standard bit-weird sideways-on hug. It all still feels weird like I'll just see him at home in a bit, like the last 5 years hasn't happened. It's a very very odd feeling.

I cried on the way home and felt 'back' a bit to feeling all the 'I miss him' feelings. Since Wed when I made the decision to say goodbye to Bella I've been feeling like that again and have... not forgotten M, but he's not been so much in the front of my mind. Not surprising really I guess. I did wonder if that would persist after I saw xH. Thought it would be likely that I'd bounce back pretty quick, and I have. I feel pretty much back to how I was at the start of last week (the 'missing him' feeling is still there but not quite so much at the front of my brain, and instead I think mostly about M). The mind is such a funny thing. I guess I've helped it along by trying to consciously shift my focus.

A update re my mare Charm: she's starting to 'bag up' (develop an udder) so it won't be too long now. Hope she's cooking me a cracker foal! Also, my other mare Emmy, who has been loaned out for the past few years to a lovely family who lived an hour or so away from me, is now living with another lady much closer to me. I'm going to visit her tonight.

[toomanytearss]

Just checking in with you Evermore.

And also wanting to see how your mare Charm is doing. Does she have a little one at her side yet?

[Evermore]

Thank you TMT for checking in. I am very well! Had a most awesome weekend away with M and his friends up the river last weekend. And last night we spent the night in a swanky hotel (M manages 10 hotels and this is one of them). I am feeling very grateful at the moment that everything is going so well and that I have stumbled across such a well-suited-to-me person. I see a bright future right now.

Re Charmy... she's still holding onto the goods! Not 'really' due just yet though. But as there's a 4 weeks window for mares she's now due 'any day'. Fingers are still crossed for a patchy chestnut filly or colt (and if it's black, or possibly bay, hopefully it's a filly!). Thanks again for checking in. How are your neddies going (has the one that had choke/colic recovered?)?

   

[Evermore]

Updating: we have a foal! Beautiful TALL chestnut tobiano colt (with the most beautiful markings).  I’ve called him T.. (stud prefix) Wish You Well (Whiskey). Very very happy with him. Can’t wait to watch him grow. He’s a week old and ZOOMING around. Only hard bit is my friend (where I agist him) blindsided me last Monday and told me I’d have to move them ASAP. Far from ideal but she’s had a few ponies come home and needs the room. I’m doing that tomorrow. Wish me luck getting a week old foal on a float!

In other news, it was xHs BDay on 9th. Both Ds and B & SIL2 went out to dinner with him and OW. M was supposed to come stay at mine that night but it didn’t work out as he had to work early the next morning (and he lives and works a long way from my house). The reason I’m documenting this is because, for the first time in 5 years, I really didn’t care at all that I was home by myself. No FOMO and in fact I was actually GLAD to have a quiet night by myself. It felt really weird to genuinely feel that way. It really does just take time and loads of it until we heal. When I think about xH these days (which I try not to do) it’s a bit foggy/fuzzy (on purpose). It feels a bit like when you look at those funny 3D pictures and you make your eyes soften and go fuzzy. I do that now automatically. It’s a peaceful ‘softened’ feeling.

Even when I hear from him it doesn’t faze me now. I sent a HBDay text and also on FB and he replied to both ‘Thanks pet-name-for-Ever’. Then this am when I was having my first cuppa for the day (and M was snoozing next to me) he messaged to say he’d put $ into joint account to contribute to cost of Bella memorial (our doggo we PTS recently) and that he’d put some more in next week. Was very impressed and thankful. But not impacted.

I hope you’re all well. I continue to follow most stories here and cheer everyone on even when I don’t comment.

[toomanytearss]

Well, Evermore, you are just chugging along like the little engine that could.  So wonderful to read your update.  And so exciting about your foal.  He sounds just gorgeous. 

Keep on keeping on!!!  Happy Thanksgiving. 

[Evermore]

Thank you TMT, I do indeed feel like I am chugging along well. There aren't as many blips as there used to be but there are still some...

A bad/sad day a few days ago. Eldest D will be 25 next Thursday. As journaled previously I think, she had planned a few months ago to have a big party at her and her partners' house and she wanted both myself and M, and MLC and OW, to attend along with both sides of the family (aunts, cousins etc). I was thrown at the time but did come round to the idea in a 'looks like I need to get this over with, so might as well do it in that kind of setting' (where I would have the support of both his family and mine) way. Soon afterwards though D24 decided she'd rather do something else and cancelled the party before even inviting anyone but me. Then on Monday evening just gone she called me to say that she had decided she would like to have a party after all, but a much smaller one. About 15-20 of her friends, her partners parents, me and M, and her dad and OW. I had taken the call at a bad time (was just arriving at the place I keep the ponies) so I told her I'd think about it and let her know.

After careful thought I decided it was just too small and intimate a gathering for me to be able to do that. I know a lot of her friends but as usually happens at these types of events, the 'older crowd' and the 'younger crowd' often gravitate to each other and there likely wouldn't be heaps of mingling. If I had my way I'd never have to attend any functions with OW ever. I realise that's not in my future though. But nope, not like that. So I called her and let her know on Tuesday evening that I was very very sorry but I just couldn't attend under those conditions ('it's ok honey, you have a lovely party with your friends and your dad and I'll celebrate with you another day').

The discussion following did not go well. It didn't help that D22 also got involved (so it was a bit of a pile on where they egged each other on a bit). It was one of those convoluted, complex, circular, emotionally draining arguments where no one is sure what anyone else is saying/means/wants and there's far too many emotions flying about. A lot of built up anger and resentment and frustration from both of them came gushing out. Most of these feelings weren't caused by me (rather, the situation), but as often happens in these circumstances, the 'safe person' (ie me, their Mum) cops it (I am fairly sure they don't have these conversations with their father).

Whilst D22 agrees with me that D24's party (as now proposed) is not the right setting for a 'first meeting' (and she says SHE doesn't want to be there in that situation either), she agrees with her sister that I 'have to do this at some stage'. For some reason both of them have built up a great significance around 'the first meeting' between OW and me. I'm not sure what they think will happen, but they seem to think that once I have 'done it once' the next times will be easier. But I think they mean easier for them (although likely they think easier for me as well)? I think D24 thinks that she will be having an engagement party not too far away and she is terrified that 'THE FIRST MEETING' will be then (!!!) and that instead of enjoying herself she will be worried about what will happen (!!!). I'm sure there will also be worry about how I will be feeling... but I get the impression (maybe unfairly?) that she is more concerned with how she will be feeling. There is definitely starting to emerge, a slight vibe from them of: 'it's been 5 years, you should be more OK with all this now, we know other people whose parents have gotten over it way quicker'.

There were comments made about it 'always being about me and how I'm feeling' when we have family functions. This is so devastating for me as I try really hard NOT to make it about me. I try to just quietly fit in and make it easier for everyone to not have their day disrupted (I try to quietly slip out early). I get the impression again, that these feelings they are having are not so much about what I do but rather, again, about how shi**y the whole situation is.

They hate that it is like this now. They hate that they have to make sure they stay longer at functions than they might have wanted to so that they can spend enough separate time with their father and also me (so they don't feel guilty). They hate that they have to choose which parent can attend their own functions/parties. They hate that they can't have Christmas day at D24's because it would mean one parent couldn't come or it'd have to be a split day and that would make them stressed and sad because they know one of us (myself or their dad) would be upset (and they would feel guilty). They hate that they feel like they need to be responsible for how their parents are feeling. I can't blame them for any of those feelings. It really is a shi**y situation. I know many families have to cope with these types of situations. That doesn't make their feelings any less relevant.

To complicate the situation further, D22 wants me to be OK with being in the same room as her dad and OW... but she doesn't want to have to ever be in a room with her dad and me and OW. Because it feels weird and awkward and she hates it. So she wants me to be OK with it. But she still won't be OK with it. 
But she understands that D24 would be OK with it, so she's siding with her on 'you are gonna have to do this mum'.

Really they just want it all to go away and for SOMEONE to just fix it all so it doesn't feel weird and awkward and horrible any more. Arghhhh!

I was shaken and distraught after the conversation (where nothing was really resolved). The next morning I had a small fight with my sister (she started lecturing me... long story and this post is already long enough). And a convo with M which ended a tiny bit frostily when, after he implied that my girls were 'bullying' me 'but he would keep his opinion to himself on that', he got slightly defensive when I said not to judge them too harshly because he didn't know (you can imagine but never know) what being a kid from a split family was like, and that it always effects kids no matter how careful you are.  (In very good news M is a very thoughtful person and we talked about it later in depth and worked through how we were both feeling. He said he just feels protective of me and didn't like that they were pressuring me.).

It blew over with D22 the next day (who remember lives with me) and we had a lovely time going to the movies on Wed night. Then the next morning, when I asked her (over the phone) if she'd heard anything from D24 (because she hadn't answered my message), we had another long, convoluted and draining conversation about it all. But I think we both moved forward in the end in 'getting it all out' and understanding more where we are both at.

Her thoughts: a) 'this needs to happen before something big like an engagement party', b) she agrees that the currently proposed idea (at D24's party) isn't the right setting (and that I shouldn't go)... but she also asks c) 'but when WILL another function happen that WILL be the right setting?! (so... I should go... OR find a way to fix everything... somehow...)'.  I asked her straight out: "Well then, tell me precisely what you want me to do". Her reply: "I don't know". Mine: "I don't know either. It's not like I'd ever throw a party myself and invite them!".  Grrrr, why is it all still so hard?! And why is it all so unfair?! I didn't WANT any of this. I didn't CAUSE any of this (directly anyway). 

My mum and both my SILs are supportive and understand why I'm not ready to go to D24's party under those conditions. I suggested to D24 that her GMa (my mum) and my sister and her H could come as well so I felt I had some support. She didn't reply to me until this morning. Just said she didn't want to invite more people and that she'd try to organise a larger family party in the new year. So for now it's on the back-burner it seems. The only good thing about all this is I've been forced to start thinking about it (so I will be more prepared in future); my girls and I have started to work through some of it (even if we're pretty crap at it); M is proving to be a fine fella (and I feel very lucky to have met him); and I'm very lucky to have supportive friends and family (xH's and mine). God this stuff is tough, even 5 years down the track. 

[hopeandfaith]

Wowee Ever, you really are good at taking a step back and taking in the total landscape (and then succinctly describing it) very quickly. No doubt that it was all a lot more icky and prickly at the time of those conversations but you don’t ever stay in that place for more than a nanosecond. I also found myself getting protective and angry that you are still required to be the adult and the bigger person when you caused NONE of this. You can rest assured that it seems that you have spent the last 5 years walking the intrepid tightrope between staying in touch with your family and protecting your heart with grace and dignity and I don’t believe you have ever indulged in making it all about you. The absolute opposite in fact.
If I am not mistaken, you were prepared to ‘do this thing’ if the group had been bigger or you had the support of a few more members of your family. D24 opted out of that option so she had some choices here too. It’s not all on you. What will continue to frustrate me is, it shouldn’t be on either of you 
If I am also not mistaken, the cancellation of this event means that I will get your wise and loving presence at my little shindig on that particular day. I am very grateful and will be giving you a big squeezy hug when I see you.

[xyzcf]

I never will accept being in the same pace as an OW. My daughter doesn't get to decide for me how that makes me feel, those are my feelings and I am allowed to feel this way.

The one exception would perhaps be her wedding. Thank goodness she is already married. Both her dad and I walked her down the aisle., My situation is different in that he has kept them (for I believe there are women) a secret.

A birthday party doesn't mean that you have to subject yourself to"accepting" the OW..so that evryone can live happily everafter.

As you kindly said, you can celebrate with her at another time.

Perhaps if their dad would attend without OW (who is nothing to these girls) you would be able to attend as her parents.

Anyone that doesn't accept that this is painful and hurtful, they have not walked in our shoes.

I agree with M, although I see it more of a selfish thing...yes our kids have been through a great deal. Yes, I have been there for my daughter 100% while he's been off carousing the world...

They do not get to tell you what you "must" do...that is for you and you alone to do what is right for you..that is what is important.

Sorry, as you can tell, I am very sure of what I would do...and actually I think I should be the one to be invited and have them tell dad and OW to stay away.

[Evermore]

Thank you dear H&F. Yes, I will absolutely be seeing you on Sunday (and I will gladly accept the squishy hug! xx).

Thank you XY also for your support. It's a hard path to negotiate and it's hard sometimes to know if you're being unreasonable or not. I definitely don't plan on having to be anywhere OW is except at large 'all family' functions. I will just have to suck it up and eat a p**-sandwich on those occasions. It is important for me to ease the situation for my girls (and everyone else) if I can without hurting myself (too much). It would be very hard for 20-somethings that haven't ever been through what I (and we all here) have been through, to fully understand what it is like. As I said above, you can only ever imagine something that you haven't lived through, never truly know.

It's interesting the different thoughts people have on this issue (interaction with xH and OW) now that there is a new person in my life. It seems that some people genuinely expected that I would (should?) be "perfectly OK now' with everything that has happened. That it will instantly allow me to 'move on' from my pain and the feelings I have about xH and OW. When my sister asked me that very question a while ago I told her 'no, I still feel the same, any movement away from those feelings is due to time and distance, not to a new person'. When she asked me that again the other day ('but won't it be easier to meet OW now that you are with M?') and I responded 'I don't understand why people keep asking me that, the two things aren't connected' she jumped down my throat and started lecturing me that she was 'just trying to be supportive' and that she 'knows several people that has happened with' etc etc. This is a pattern with her. She wants to be able to support me in the way SHE thinks is best, even when I tell her it isn't helping me. Then I am apparently 'just making it all about me'.   

I am grateful for this place that allows me to write it all out and get support and advice.

[UrsaMajor]

Isn't it "interesting" (in that Chinese curse sort of way - "May you live in interesting times" or that American sort of way where we look at the Server burning and say "Well, THAT is interesting.") that people who have never been through what the LBS has been through have "all" the answers as to what we are supposed to feel, how we are supposed to "deal" with the things we have experienced and how soon we are supposed to just be like Elsa and just


The fact that you are in an R with M has ZERO bearing on the impact that xH's MLC had on you.

The issue with D22 that she expects you to "get over it" while she refuses to be in the same room with her F and OW.... A bit like the pot calling the kettle black, isn't it?

As for Sis, until she has first hand experience (and not just "knowing several people that this has happened with blah blah blah") her opinion on what you should or should not be doing has about as much relevance as a pancake on a soccer field....

[Treasur]

Isn’t it funny how language can obscure accuracy was my first thought….
Bc actually you don’t ’have to’
The words we use can somehow skip over the real problem in problem solving sometimes.

Different people might want you to, or find it easier if you did, or think you should, or say other people do, or that they would if they were you…but you don’t have to actually. You just need to understand how you feel, accept that it’s ok to feel that way and that there may be consequences of having a boundary. Which of course includes that others might not like it. I think you are being commendably clear eyed in seeing that.

We all know that what happened to us, what others did to us to meet their own wishes, was as damaging as being seriously assaulted. Maybe worse tbh. Would people say we ‘have to’ socialise with someone who beat us up or raped us or stole from us? Probably not. Odd.

Funny too how all the heat and energy got focused on you….what you should or shouldn’t do or feel or need…and not much at all on your xh or ow based on what you said. When as a ‘parental’ event, the obvious first presenting solution is that the person who is not a birth parent eg ow should not attend?

 I suspect a lot of LBS parents here, even those with adult children, will be familiar with that dynamic, where the ‘safe’ parent is told they ‘have to’ bend and suck it up so the kids can avoid conflict with the not so safe parent who has a track record of putting their own needs first after all. That the LBS is expected to be the grown up in the room while everyone else not so much. I imagine it might even feel like a bit of being blamed unfairly or victimised all over again actually…if it does, i’m sorry.

Not a child owner so no solution to offer  And I’m not sure you need one….i have no doubt that you are wise enough to choose your own.

What I hope though is that, underneath all the heat and fury, the conversations with your daughters may have sown some seeds of understanding even if they are small ones. What did strike me is that, I think, your pov is different about socialising with xh vs ow? Is that accurate? And do you know why you feel that way if so? Don’t misunderstand me….i am not saying you should or should not feel anything different from how you feel….but it has been my experience sometimes that my own gut boundaries have clarified something that turned out to be quite helpful in my own process of shaking my jigsaw pieces into place. Just a thought.

So, no advice.
Just wanted to say I (we) hear you and we get it and it’s ok for you to feel however you damn well feel 

[FrenchHusband]

I suspect a lot of LBS parents here, even those with adult children, will be familiar with that dynamic, where the ‘safe’ parent is told they ‘have to’ bend and suck it up so the kids can avoid conflict with the not so safe parent who has a track record of putting their own needs first after all. That the LBS is expected to be the grown up in the room while everyone else not so much. I imagine it might even feel like a bit of being blamed unfairly or victimised all over again actually…if it does, i’m sorry.

Not a child owner so no solution to offer  And I’m not sure you need one….i have no doubt that you are wise enough to choose your own.

Hi Evermore,

I am sorry for you that, even 5 years after BD you "have to" face still hurting situations even for moments that should be happy and provide good memories like birthdays. And also I am happy for you that you are able to get and see positive outputs and M's support.
As a child owner I won't offer to you a solution but a  different perspective.
From my point of view, a big part of the topic is related to boundaries, what we can accept and what we can not accept.

People under MLC have usually a terrific way to set up boundaries : when they are upset with something, they shout, they raise the voice, they blame, they make a mess of the normal adult conversations : what we call "monstering". It is very childish, very teenage-ish but... it works. We LBS learn sooner or later to NOT wake up Monster and to NOT feed Monster. It is the same for our children : when they are confronted with a parent under MLC and Monstering, they usually avoid the conflict and they learn how to walk on eggshells.

We LBS, instead of this "strong" approach, learn the "soft" approach to set up boundaries : few words, no projections, no blame, no scream, clear communication. It is an adult way of handling things, but this may be considered as "weak" and "changeable", mayn't it ?

Your initial boundary was "not in the same room/place with OW", right ? And it is a reasonable boundary IMO. If you want to keep it or enforce it, it would be fine IMO. After the initial plots from D24, you even accepted to lower your boundaries to "ok to be in same room with OW with some initial conditions of big family presence".

From my point of view, this situation is an opportunity for you to reaffirm to your Ds (and sister ?) what is your boundary, and also that lowering your boundary for exceptionnal events (birthdays, marriages) would NOT mean you lower your boundary for everything. Assertivity is a way to let no room for unfounded assumptions.

[Reinventing]

I am torn about this issue. On the one hand, my visceral reaction is the same as yours and what others have said. On the other hand, it gives OW a lot of power in ones life that her mere presence can mean missing out on important events in ones daughter's life.

I'm not offering any insight here, just ruminating on this, yet again, painful situation that the LBS is faced with as a result of the MLCer's choices.

Some speak of things such as acceptance, yet don't accept that the MLCer, as a separate adult human being can have another person(s) in their lives.

I know my ruminations may not be helpful. I can certainly say that the situation is hurtful for the LBS, that part is for sure.

......would NOT mean you lower your boundary for everything. Assertivity is a way to let no room for unfounded assumptions.

I agree with this--good idea from FH.

[Evermore]

I knew writing here and considering all your thoughtful replies (thank you H&F, XY, UM, Treasur, FH, Reinventing) would help me put my thoughts in order and sort through them.

Isn’t it funny how language can obscure accuracy was my first thought….
Bc actually you don’t ’have to’
The words we use can somehow skip over the real problem in problem solving sometimes.

Different people might want you to, or find it easier if you did, or think you should, or say other people do, or that they would if they were you…but you don’t have to actually. You just need to understand how you feel, accept that it’s ok to feel that way and that there may be consequences of having a boundary. Which of course includes that others might not like it. I think you are being commendably clear eyed in seeing that.

We all know that what happened to us, what others did to us to meet their own wishes, was as damaging as being seriously assaulted. Maybe worse tbh. Would people say we ‘have to’ socialise with someone who beat us up or raped us or stole from us? Probably not. Odd.

Funny too how all the heat and energy got focused on you….what you should or shouldn’t do or feel or need…and not much at all on your xh or ow based on what you said. When as a ‘parental’ event, the obvious first presenting solution is that the person who is not a birth parent eg ow should not attend?

 I suspect a lot of LBS parents here, even those with adult children, will be familiar with that dynamic, where the ‘safe’ parent is told they ‘have to’ bend and suck it up so the kids can avoid conflict with the not so safe parent who has a track record of putting their own needs first after all. That the LBS is expected to be the grown up in the room while everyone else not so much. I imagine it might even feel like a bit of being blamed unfairly or victimised all over again actually…if it does, i’m sorry.

Not a child owner so no solution to offer  And I’m not sure you need one….i have no doubt that you are wise enough to choose your own.

What I hope though is that, underneath all the heat and fury, the conversations with your daughters may have sown some seeds of understanding even if they are small ones. What did strike me is that, I think, your pov is different about socialising with xh vs ow? Is that accurate? And do you know why you feel that way if so? Don’t misunderstand me….i am not saying you should or should not feel anything different from how you feel….but it has been my experience sometimes that my own gut boundaries have clarified something that turned out to be quite helpful in my own process of shaking my jigsaw pieces into place. Just a thought.

So, no advice.
Just wanted to say I (we) hear you and we get it and it’s ok for you to feel however you damn well feel 

As usual Treasur you have dug straight through and found the nugget that needs examining. The crux of the issue.

I explained what I am feeling about having to be in the same room as xH and OW… but not WHY I feel that way. And for me it’s an important thing to explore. Because this from Reinventing is the ‘place’ I am aiming for these days:

Some speak of things such as acceptance, yet don't accept that the MLCer, as a separate adult human being can have another person(s) in their lives.

Accepting that he has a right to live his life as he wishes, which includes accepting he gets to choose who he spends his time with. Who he loves. Who he wants to grow old with. Because I do believe I should accept these things. I do love him and I do wish the best for him. If that means he lives a life without me (much) in it (as we do now), that is his choice to make. I wish him well. I have chosen this as how I want to respond to his choices. It is being the person I wish to be.

Intellectually I am mostly already there. Emotionally… still a ways off. It’s still very painful for me.

For some ‘part of me’ it’s still unbelievable even. Because I know the bond/connection we had/have is still there for some ‘part of him’ as well. But he has made his choice. I believe he even made it twice. The first time was in MLC-run mode. The second was more considered but I believe still ‘MLC influenced’ (in that it would be just ‘far too hard’ to ‘roll everything back’ now  ).

From BBHelp comes this timely reminder about what GAL really ‘is’ (thanks keepfighting for digging this up at the perfect time, I haven’t read BB in a long time but always found him inspiring):

… We humans HATE change…we fight against it, we rage against it…we try so hard to avoid it.  The reality is that “We don’t change when we see the light…we change when we feel the HEAT”.   So to me GAL=Making the Changes Necessary to Adjust to your NEW Life...and learning to Embrace the Change.”
…
“Getting a Life to me means…Living YOUR Life.  It doesn’t mean joining a gym, going on trips and dating because your spouse is lost in the fog.  It means that your life is forever changed…and it doesn’t matter that you didn’t want it to.  To me it is about putting your focus on the right things and moving forward…because it is the only way out.  So if gyms and vacations help find the new you in there…good for you and go for it.  Embrace this time…not because it is fun…because it is inevitable.  So the question is what will you do with it.  Will you spend it in a funk, will you spend it in denial, or will you spend it building yourself, your family and your world into something you will enjoy in the end.  It took me years to really embrace Getting a Life…but I thank God every day that I did.

Emotionally I am still “raging against the change”. My feet and head, and even heart, are making great progress (I think) in moving forward with building a new life for myself. ‘I’ve seen better days’ (thank you again Bernard for the great thread titles ).

Part of being able to do that has been learning to ‘take my eyes off him’, as we are told to do. Took a while (years!) but in my mind he is now (for the majority of the time) ‘over there’. Over there is always ‘up and over to the left in a fogging/misty/out of focus’ place in my mind for some reason (I wonder why that is and if there’s any significance?).

I think though, that the ‘taking my eyes off him’ has allowed my brain to emotionally think that he is ‘still there’ as he was… just ‘not here right now’. That he’s working away. Or on a holiday. Lately, because he’s so so far away these days, so distant, in my brain it feels like he’s died. I’m sure it’s a protective thing. And I’ve used it to my advantage because it’s allowed me to do the moving forward that I’ve done.

But it’s not reality is it. In reality he IS still living. Just not with me. This whole big long post boils down to the fact that, as Treasur pointed out, I don’t have a problem with being in the same room as xH. I have a problem with being in the same room as xH WITH OW.

Because I don’t want to SEE.   

^ crux

My poor little brain thinks my heart will explode if it SEES. 

I’ve been able to get along up until now without having to. There’s been no real HEAT until now. I do think now though, that it will be important for my healing and for my continued moving forward, to SEE. To look reality in the face and truly accept that this is where we all are. To no longer be afraid. I think I will be able to at some point soon. I think it’ll be good for me (after I work through the pain it’ll cause). It’ll also make it easier for others so that’s a bonus.

Sorry for length. It was important for me to set it out in order and in full.

[Reinventing]

Intellectually I am mostly already there. Emotionally… still a ways off. It’s still very painful for me.

Yes, if there's one thing I've learned is that our emotions lag behind, painfully, woefully, so.

[Biscuit]

Evermore,

Not meaning to hijack your post but some of what you wrote really resonated with me.
Whilst W was off with OM, introducing him to mutual friends, entertaining him our house, taking him to events (which we had planned to go to as a couple), I didn't have to physically see him. But obviously the brain does a very good job of seeing and imagining anyway. For that time I kind of compartmentalised that part of her life, as kind of being away, like you say.

The interesting part for me here is that W had introduced OM to everyone except me. Friends had accepted their relationship as friends do I suppose.
Some months ago W asked if I wanted to meet OM . I said yes as part of our agreement in mediation was that any potential new partner would be introduced before meeting our kids (which she ignored and just went right ahead having him over for weekends). I made it clear that the terms of our agreement were that I should have met this guy before he met the kids, but yes I wanted to meet this person, as I thought it was important to know who my children were interacting with and possibly being left alone with.
I also said I was going to have a proper chat with OM not just as part of a group but sitting down man to man. By that stage I was absolutely dreading meeting this person - but had mentally prepared myself. That was really hard, building myself up to meet the man that my W now loved instead of me. It took a couple of weeks, then I said - Mrs Biscuit, I'm ready. Then the weirdest thing happened, the OM was gone. I'm not sure if it was him feeling intimidated with meeting me, her being scared about me meeting him - one to one - where her BS might be revealed ("Oh, my ex, Biscuit is such a horrible person etc") then he realises I'm not Voldermort. But that was it - he evaporated, never to be spoken about or seen again.

Anyway, sorry to hijack, but I don't think I wrote about this at the time and it felt (kind of) relevant, if only that I felt true dread about spending time with this person, and built them up to be Arnie or Leonardo DiCaprio in my brain but in the end I think he just legged it rather than get involved with a difficult conversation.

[Treasur]

Well, that makes complete sense to me, Ever.
Tbh I recognise that feeling all too well. I have it when I visit my mother who has advanced dementia. I had it this week clearing out an old laptop full of divorce related files. I know both of these things are reality, but I don’t want to SEE them bc they make my stomach lurch and my breath stop. Like you, I have done well to make a life with those things in the corner of my eye 
Is it a kind of PTSD residue? Idk. Maybe it’s just how our human brains cope with living despite great pain and loss. Our brains are remarkable quirky and creative things I think. 

I get too that feeling of he’s somewhere ‘there’…..I think most people who have experienced bereavements know that feeling. It’s an odd one but somehow makes sense, doesn’t it? We don’t always talk about it bc we know it’s not true exactly, but it feels true enough to go on with to us. I think my h lived in my head for a good couple of years long after I’d seen him. And then tbh, as I posted here, it made sense to me to pretty much think of it as if he’d died. My feelings and struggles were much the same. I intellectually knew he hadn’t, but it felt as if he had; I felt widowed. (Didn’t share that much in RL either tbh bc it felt a bit nutso. But made sense at the same time). Easier in my situation with a vanisher and no children, of course.

So, makes sense.
You do you
See (or not) when or if you’re ready
But I hope being able to put your finger on it, while maybe unsettling in the short term, will prove helpful to you.

[hopeandfaith]

After hearing about your ‘why’s’ Ever, I am curious as to what your D’s ‘why’ is.  Why doesn’t she want to be around ow?

[forthetrees]

Now you´ve got me pondering whether radical acceptance requires being in ow´s presence or if you can reach radical acceptance and not have to be in her presence. I´m not sure that the acceptance requires putting yourself in her presence. Kinda like you can accept that burning coals are really hot without having to step on them barefoot or you accept that gravity is a force without hurling yourself off a building to prove it. All that to say that I don´t think you need to SEE it to reach the next level of healing. I wonder if your D could have invited her dad for appetizers and you for cake and then the crossing of paths would be a non-issue. She does need to take into account your feelings and having the attitude of "get over it" is not helpful.

[Reinventing]

Now you´ve got me pondering whether radical acceptance requires being in ow´s presence or if you can reach radical acceptance and not have to be in her presence.

I don't think it requires being in her presence--some never have that choice--but I wonder if not shying away from being in her presence means the LBS is not handing over so much power to the OW/OM in what the LBS does or doesn't do.

I still remain torn about all this. I read all of our thoughts and part of me thinks, why does OW/OM get to insert themselves in our lives? And then I remember that is our former spouses who were the ones that broke their vows to us, not OW/OM. I then think, OW/OM should be disinvited to events. And then I remember that I only have control of me and my actions.

In the end, I still come back to the power it gives OW for her presence to dictate what the LBS does with their own family. And that rankles me the most, and I land on doing what I would normally do if she weren't in the picture. Minimize her effect on my life and decisions.

And it doesn't hurt to think about the OW seeing the LBS interact with their children and realize that she doesn't have that long history, memories, and ease that parents have without even thinking about it, they just do. But that is the part of me I try to not entertain in decision making.

[Evermore]

Thank you all for your thought provoking replies.

After hearing about your ‘why’s’ Ever, I am curious as to what your D’s ‘why’ is.  Why doesn’t she want to be around ow?

Sorry H&F I might not have explained that very well. D22 doesn't want to be in the same room as me and her dad. Of course the 'me, xH and OW' version is not something she wants to be part of either! It's sad to me that she feels that way, but it's how she feels. She also prefers not to be around OW but doesn't have much choice in that as she (and her sister) would never require him to leave her out (and she's always wherever he is  ). They would consider that would be rude (they'd also never ask me not to bring M to something). They also don't want to hurt their dad. I know I know, they're happy to ask things of me that cause me pain. What they really want is for it NOT to cause me pain. None of us are in control of that. 

[toomanytearss]

I think sometimes we forget how hard this is in our grown children. It hits them differently in some ways than we imagine.
Remember what we’ve learned here. The biggest part of our fear and hurt is the loss of the future we imagined.

I think our older kids maybe go through the same thing. Their vision of their parents happily growing old together. Their kids learning at our knees. Spending holidays together and baking cookies with their kids. You know all those wonderful thoughts that we put in our heads.

Not only have our futures been drastically changed so have theirs.

Their fear of loss is also heightened. I’m sure much of what they feel is to protect their mom from more pain. As much as we hate our children to go through pain they feel the same about us.

Maybe your daughter is trying to protect you and also herself. If she had to see you both ion the same place together but not together - that might be too hard for her right now. It might hurt that her dreams of the future are so drastically changed. Or maybe the situation makes her feel too uncomfortable right now.

Maybe keeping things as separate as possible helps her compartmentalize and deal with this new way of life.

Have you asked her why she feels that way?  Maybe she will share her feelings about it with you.

I

[Evermore]

Have you asked her why she feels that way?

TMT, D22 has always been scared of gushy overt emotions. I think her fear is that I would be emotional and that she would then also feel emotional.

It's all a moot point anyway... because I went to the party, xH and OW showed up after a few hours... and it was no big deal. 

I wasn't bothered at all (and in fact felt a bit sorry for the both of them; they were fairly obviously feeling more unsure in the situation than I was).

When they arrived we were out on the back deck and I was shielded from them coming out the back door by M and one of D24... sorry D25s! friends. D22 and extra-kid D23 were sitting facing us and the door. They got all 'they're here, they're here' whispery to me and D22 looked a little uncomfortable. D23 was being funny and making sly 'upper cut' motions at me and winking to diffuse the tension, haha. xH was greeted everyone and then came straight over to M and introduced himself and OW (with a firm handshake). Then came around M and gave me his standard hug and kiss on the head (I'm short!) and said 'thanks pet-name-for-Ever' with great sincerity.

We all got back to mingling (it was easy and no big deal to steer clear of OW, enough other people to chat to) until it was cake time. After D25 blew out her candles and we'd (badly) sung Happy Birthday, xH made a brief speech where he said something like 'it's been a bit of a $h!te time the past few years' (or something like that, it was M that picked up that he'd said that and told me after that he found it interesting). Then he went on to include me in the speech and talk about 'we' and 'our daughter'. Honestly, if you didn't know we weren't together and you heard the speech you'd think we still were.  Of course he did this also at D25's 20th party, which was only a couple of months after he had BD'd me (no OW there at that one), so I wasn't really surprised. He's consistently wanted to feel like we are still a 'family' (keeping the family health insurance is another way he does this). Reflecting, if I was OW I would have felt pretty uncomfortable in that scenario. But I'm not OW and I felt completely at ease. So weird after all my fear of what it would feel like.

M was a legend. There when I needed him, mingling and talking to the girls' friends. THEN, towards the end of the evening (well for us, we left about 9.30), I was inside talking with the three girls and D23's BF... and we look out onto the deck and see xH go up to M and start chatting. They chatted for at least half an hour. We were all laughing (inconspicuously of course) at how strange it all was!   

When I felt it was time to leave I went up to M (while xH was still standing with him) and asked smilingly if he was ready to go. I then 'made the rounds' to say goodbye to people. Got hugs and 'bye D25's Mum!' from all her friends. OW was chatting with D25's BF's mum and it would have been rude not to go say goodbye to her (D25's BF's mum that is!). So I marched up and gave her a hug and said goodbye. Then turned vaguely to OW and said 'Bye, nice to meet you' with a smile and walked back to M and xH. He gave me a hug goodbye and off we toddled. We laughed all the way home at how easy it was and how weird because it wasn't really that weird.

One final thing that made me happy was that after those first initial moments, it was clear that my girls were feeling relieved. So that's a good thing. They can stop bugging me now, haha. SIL2 called me just as M and I got home. I'd told her I was going to the party yesterday when she called me to invite us to her and BIL's Xmas BBQ next weekend (xH and OW will also be there). Yesterday I told her I'd wait to see how I felt after the party last night. Last night when she called I said we'd definitely come and that I would be completely fine. Ironically I predict that xH and OW will, at some stage, start wishing they hadn't wanted me to be OK with attending the same functions as them. 

[Treasur]

No right to be, but very proud of you for facing down that fear bc it sounds as if it was important to you  well done. Sounds like a win for you and, as you say, perhaps a dose of reality with a dash of vinegar for xh and ow. Reading it, I found myself wondering if the xh feels more like an xh than an h now? And how nice that M had your back in a nice adult way, that’s lovely.

Wouldn’t be surprised though if xh or ow test your ‘how much family are we now’ boundaries though, so you might want to keep an eye or how much is enough and no more for you if they do….just bc it’s so very textbook…. ….i’m guessing that you’re not looking for xh and ow to be new BFFs?

[FrenchHusband]

Great story Evermore, I am so glad for you that it turned well. You have faced your fears and made it.

And the final words ! I could not help but laughing outloud for somes seconds after reading it.

Yesterday I told her I'd wait to see how I felt after the party last night. Last night when she called I said we'd definitely come and that I would be completely fine. Ironically I predict that xH and OW will, at some stage, start wishing they hadn't wanted me to be OK with attending the same functions as them. 

Thank you for having shared this event here, you give me joy and courage for the day.

[Reinventing]

No right to be, but very proud of you for facing down that fear bc it sounds as if it was important to you  well done.

Me too! And also agree with the testing the boundary alert from Treasur as well.

It was touching to hear how your Ds helped at the moment of xH and OW arrival to lessen the impact of that moment. They love you very much.

Beat of all, your Ds sound like they had a great time.

FH, yes, I also laughed at that and was glad I hadn't just taken a sip of something to drink before reading that line.

[UrsaMajor]

-ess

[hopeandfaith]

I am so proud of you and so thrilled for you and the girls. I know you have wanted them to be happy as much as anything. You’re a baddie!

I definitely wouldn’t be surprised if ow starts shrinking just that little bit more. Exh is probably gonna come alive a little bit because his guilt is lessened and he is also ironically getting a bit more facetime with one of his best friends. Ursa, can you find a lead balloon gif to show how this would go down with the ow.

[Evermore]

Thank you Treasur, FH, Reinventing, UM and my dear F&H.

No right to be, but very proud of you for facing down that fear bc it sounds as if it was important to you  well done. Sounds like a win for you and, as you say, perhaps a dose of reality with a dash of vinegar for xh and ow. Reading it, I found myself wondering if the xh feels more like an xh than an h now? And how nice that M had your back in a nice adult way, that’s lovely.

Wouldn’t be surprised though if xh or ow test your ‘how much family are we now’ boundaries though, so you might want to keep an eye or how much is enough and no more for you if they do….just bc it’s so very textbook…. ….i’m guessing that you’re not looking for xh and ow to be new BFFs?

Yes, it was something that was important to me to do (because it was important to those I love and who love me).

Re whether xh feels more like an xh than an h now... maybe a little? It still waxes and wanes a bit. More waning though than waxing I think these days, so moving in a sensible direction.

Nope, definitely not looking for them to be my BFFs. I don't think they'll try to be. But I guess we will see (xh did FB-like the lovely pic that was taken of M and myself at the party (that I made my profile pic)  ). 

It was touching to hear how your Ds helped at the moment of xH and OW arrival to lessen the impact of that moment. They love you very much.

It was very sweet of them and I very much appreciated it.

Exh is probably gonna come alive a little bit because his guilt is lessened and he is also ironically getting a bit more facetime with one of his best friends. Ursa, can you find a lead balloon gif to show how this would go down with the ow.

As mentioned, he was seemingly very happy that I was there and made sure to 'like' and comment on my HBD to D25 post and to 'like' my new profile pic. I think you are right that a lot of his 'coming alive' (in the sense of 'increased energy') is to do with a lessening of guilt. I think he has felt guilt for 'busting up the family' (not just our little one but the whole shebang). He knows it's been hard on everyone. So I think he will feel better that I now feel I can attend his family's functions and that we don't all have to do the 'who's coming when' dance any longer (well not all the time anyway). I too have a feeling though that the relief might be short lived if we continue to cross paths and OW gets 'over it'.   

[UrsaMajor]

Ursa, can you find a lead balloon gif to show how this would go down with the ow.

Best I could do...


But I was thinking more like

[hopeandfaith]

 

[FaithWalker]

I'm late to the party but grinning about this milestone passed.  I was also thinking about my first encounter with xh's new wife as well.  I was so glad to read that your first encounter went as it did! 

[Evermore]

I'm late to the party but grinning about this milestone passed.  I was also thinking about my first encounter with xh's new wife as well.  I was so glad to read that your first encounter went as it did!

Thank you FW. It was weird but I coped. And there’s been a second encounter now as well. On this Christmas Eve, where for the past few years myself and D22 have gone to eldest D’s house (with my mum and D25’s partner’s mum too) I told D25 it was ok if she wanted to invite her dad… etc ( ). It was a smaller gathering than her Bday but she did invite a few extra close family members too and M came with me of course. It was still weird but it was ok. As at D25’s BDay, xH made extra effort to engage M in conversation (this time it was me getting up to use the loo and xH taking my seat! Haha). My girls seem very happy with this new development (it makes things much easier for them).

I’ve had a very lovely and peaceful Christmas all round. I didn’t have any FOMO about not attending in-law-Xmas celebrations! That feels odd. I still feel like I’m ‘transitioning’ to a new life. But I feel like I’m on the ‘other side of the hump’ now. I really feel that if xH came to me and said ‘Omg! What did I do?! Let’s try again.’ I would genuinely be able to tell him ‘sorry, you took too long’. Of course that’s unlikely to happen. And there’s no guarantee I wouldn’t feel more torn than I think I would be. But now I’m hoping he really is content enough in his new life that he doesn’t attempt a return. I think. Yes, still a little split I think. But I think that wish is one originating from muscle memory because I hoped for it for so long and I still feel connected to xH. It’s fading all the time (the hope, but not the feeling of connection strangely). Which feels peaceful and sad and happy all at once. Bitter sweet!

Sending merry Christmas thoughts to all. For those still struggling, hang in there. It will get better. Just keep swimming. Just keep swimming.

[Evermore]

Oh oh and, funny… on Christmas day I posted a pic of Fred the woofer sitting under the Christmas tree to FB and wished all ‘our’ friends and family a happy Xmas and NY; and I tagged M. XH commented: ‘Merry Christmas pet-name-for-Ever and M, have a bloody great day xx’

It’s like I’m living in a new different bizarro land than the bizarro land I have been living in for the past 5 years! Soooo weird 🤣🤣🤣

[Reinventing]

Evermore, I'm glad for your freedom in moving about and attending your family's events. You sound unfettered.

I also find the comments and overt attention from your xH to be strange. And a bit patronizing, for lack of a better word. I can't put my finger on what to call it.

You, however, sound great. Which is the most important thing.

[KayDee]

I also find the comments and overt attention from your xH to be strange. And a bit patronizing, for lack of a better word. I can't put my finger on what to call it.

Overcompensating?

You, however, sound great. Which is the most important thing.

Here, here!

[Evermore]

I also find the comments and overt attention from your xH to be strange. And a bit patronizing, for lack of a better word. I can't put my finger on what to call it.

Overcompensating?

You, however, sound great. Which is the most important thing.

Here, here!

Oh yes, overcompensating is the reason I’m sure. He has big guilt and this is his way of relieving that guilt for himself (‘see I was right, it did all work out for the best, she’s happy with someone else now and I will make sure everyone knows I am happy about that’). It’s also a genuine display of approval I’m sure. He is still a very nice man who loves me and wants to see me happy. I’ve always maintained that he just wanted a new life and hated having to hurt me to go get it. For right now things are working out ok. Let’s hope they continue to do so for both of us!

[xyzcf]

Just wanted to send a word to you...sorry, it's been really busy here. I am very happy to hear how your life is evolving. The time spent with your family is more comfortable than you had imagined and I think it is good for all. 

He is still a very nice man who loves me and wants to see me happy. I’ve always maintained that he just wanted a new life and hated having to hurt me to go get it. For right now things are working out ok. Let’s hope they continue to do so for both of us!

For many spouses, they do not hate us. Acceptance of their choice for a different life is a very healthy way to move forward in your own...yet still having feelings for him and caring about what happens to him......it's not always easy but as you and others have shown us, it can be done.

Enjoy the end of this year and a bright New Year ahead!

[Evermore]

Thank you XY. Your well wishes are much appreciated. To be honest, it’s a bit unbelievable that I’m where I am currently.
I’m glad to read that you also had a great family time with more to come. Xx

[xyzcf]

I really appreciate your coming back to tell your story. There was a great deal of apprehension and "advice" given to you concerning seeing your xH but you followed your intuition about what would be the right thing for your daughters, your family and for him in many ways.

I do not think we can shut off the love we shared because they ended up having a crisis.

I am dismayed by so much advice given that the only way for healing to occur is to stop any contact with them, to look at everything they do as being "monster" towards us and the lack of empathy and understanding for what they are going through.

Thus was not the philosophy of HS, certainly not in RCR's articles. There was a emphasis on understanding the crisis and I know that helped me a great deal to accept what was happening.

I am thrilled to hear how vey happy you sound in your posts and wish you and M the very best.

Yes, our times together are quite comfortable, the family times are wonderful and I have no "fear" as I once had that seeing him would somehow "harm" me or prevent me from moving forward.

I do not see myself in another relationship. I am 69 years old, have lived alone for 14 years and of course have always believed that marriage is a life long permanent commitment to one another. Each of us are different, each of us come here with our own values, beliefs and understanding of ourselves, our marriages and what MLC is about.

I am happy that peace and joy are very much back in my life and that came without closing all doors to him, without shutting him out of my life. I could have done so, people told me I should..but that was not and never was in my heart.

Other posters here have written about spending time with their spouse over the holidays and have been pleasantly surprised that it was ok...better then they expected.

That of course is not possible for everyone. We don't really have control about what our spouses are doing, some have been violent and abusive but there are many others who I see as being "lost"....they don't seem to end up being terribly happy from my observations..unless of course they come to terms with what happened to them to change them in so many ways.

it’s a bit unbelievable that I’m where I am currently.

None of us know what is in store for us in the future. I hear peace in your posts, not anger, rage and bitterness that some carry with them for years which will not help ultimately in their growth and healing.

Again, my 2 cents worth

Have a wonderful New Year Ever!

[Reinventing]

I am dismayed by so much advice given that the only way for healing to occur is to stop any contact with them, to look at everything they do as being "monster" towards us and the lack of empathy and understanding for what they are going through.

I think saying "the only way" is an overstatement and one I have seen before and one that I object to. In my own journey, a person of one, a period of limited and then no contact literally saved my life and sanity. I respect myself for navigating what I needed at that period of time so that I could survive. There were many other things I did to survive that I don't need to do now, thankfully.

For me, a person of one, it helped me detach from his instability, high narcissism, and his deliberate attempts to elicit a reaction from me when I was barely living from moment to moment, barely living from hour to hour, barely living from day to day. To underscore this, I lost about a quarter of my hair during that time.

For my own healing, I needed to separate from the chaos, instability, and selfishness to save my sanity and heal. I, an example of one, needed room to think and understand the tsunami that just hit. I needed time to look back at the actions that I couldn't understand before, but were troubling, leading up to BD. I needed to protect myself financially, even if I understood he was going through a crisis and needed as much  money as possible to build his new life. I didn't sacrifice my financial future because of what he was going through and most LBS advise the same.

I also didn't sacrifice myself  emotionally and mentally. For that period of time I needed to focus on my healing. I respect myself for recognizing and implementing that. Do not be "dismayed" for me and what I needed to stay alive and become a whole person again. Do not be "dismayed" that I think others may (the operative word there is may) need that space to heal. I don't view myself as some particularly weak, bad, or insensitive person.

What the LBS needs and their healing is most important. We didn't cause the MLC, our marriages didn't cause the MLC, we can't fix the MLC. But we can control ourselves, get our feet under ourselves and build a life, with or without the MLCer. For me, a person of one, I needed limited  contact for business purposes only for a period of time. I needed to focus on my physiological response of high anxiety and learn how to reduce that (for me, exercise and limited contact). I respect that taking actions that help us heal can, for some (the operative word is some), include reducing or stopping contact for a period of time. That was definitely the case with me and I stand by that and look back at myself with pride on how I chose to heal.

None of what I said above means that I was vindictive or mean to the MLCer, and I don't advocate for that. I did need to be clear eyed that the MLCer was no longer playing in the same sandbox as me. I did need to be clear eyed that the MLCer was not treating me with respect. I did need to be clear eyed that the MLCer would have been happy for me to hand over all the financials to them for them to spend. I did need to be clear eyed that another person was part of my marriage and he was now in the sandbox with that person. I made the decision early on that for me, I was not going to be an OW to the OW.

I think that there are stages the LBS goes through in their own healing. The LBS is not a martyr. The LBS is not able to fix the MLCer. The LBS does need to respect that the MLCer is an autonomous adult who may be making poor choices in the eyes of the LBS and even others, but is allowed to do that. As much as it hurt me to realize this, the MLCer is allowed to love someone else and build a life with them.

[Treasur]

I agree with every word of this, Reinventing, so make that a sample of two.

I too objected to the underpinning tone of what you wrote, Xyzcf, whilst respecting your right to hold that PoV about your own experience. I just wish it hadn’t sounded quite so disapproving of those of us whose experience and PoV were different.

I found that a bit hurtful tbh as a long time poster here. As if you deemed I had failed somehow bc I don’t have family Christmases with my ex spouse years on - particularly difficult to read at this time of year for someone who has no family at all. Or that I was damaging LBS here by prioritising their healing over any compassion I may feel for the MLC folks who are the source of their distress. It read as being rather strangely unkind bc I do not see you as an unkind poster butyou evidently have strong feelings about the issue of contact.

However, behind the debate or RCR’s principles or anyone else’s tbh, there are some real people here like me (and perhaps Reinventing and others) who had to make painful choices to survive behaviour we found deeply distressing, frightening and inconceivable. Choices sometimes that were at odds with our own principles and beliefs. But we did and we did. And that’s not nothing. It deserves compassion and empathy too imho.

[xyzcf]

Re reading my post this morning, further on down the the post I wrote this:

That of course is not possible for everyone. We don't really have control about what our spouses are doing, some have been violent and abusive but there are many others who I see as being "lost

In my view, Ever had been given several words of "advise" concerning the wish of her daughter that she be present at her party with her father and suggestions about how to avoid that. She did not follow that advice, and the result seems to have gone quite well...her "fear" of ever being in the same space as exH was relieved by the actual experience. I suspect she will not be haunted anymore when she encounters him at future events.

Another poster was advised not to drive her husband to the airport. She's very early on in this journey. She saw and heard some things during that drive that she would not have heard had she set "boundaries" that because he is leaving her, she should not drive him anywhere. He was leaving for a foreign country and she will not have the chance to ask him things that she needs to know. Even if he doesn't give her the answers she needs..she will have felt that she had a chance to express them.

I do care very deeply about all the posters on HS. To never see the person that you spent so many years with, for the children who do not get to see their other parent, for all the damage to the LBSer that we have to heal from.....I care deeply.

There was another thread yesterday where I felt put down because I disagree (my own point of view) that the person in crisis can be compared to other pathology's ( I used a couple of examples such as PTSD from war and menopause). We don't really know what causes this break in their psyche...and thus, I don't necessarily hold them "accountable" for their actions..again, my own point of view.

I am dismayed by so much advice given that the only way for healing to occur is to stop any contact with them,

Sometimes we interpret words differently....if I take out the word "only" that might seem clearer, for I do see much advice given to eliminate contact.

It is necessary and helpful for healing of the LBSer at times and some times contact can be very harmful.

I read this on Biscuit's thread today:

I stayed and chatted to 2 of our friends late into the night. It was a difficult conversation as they were saying they thought that me and W were getting too close and that we should sell our house and live completely separate lives (we own 2 houses and live apart anyway). I told them that where me and W is at the moment is working for us as a family, that they are entitled to their opinions and that there's not a one size fits all for families living apart. Just because all our separated friends have decided to spend almost no time together that doesn't mean me and W should do the same.
I got the "you should move on" talk. It was well meaning and kind but I told them that I have moved on, I've grown and healed loads and I've forgiven W for what she did and I feel ready to start spending more time with her and the kids and that it doesn't destabilize me. And moving on for me doesn't mean finding a new relationship, it means finding myself again and learning to love who I am and appreciate all I've got.

There are many people who express this point of view to us.  Heros spouse was a place where I could express myself and not be told to do what everyone else was telling me to do. My perception is that has changed on Heros Spouse. I give a different point of view perhaps...for  some members to use as they wish or not.

If we were in the same room discussing our views, it would be easier to clarify or continue a discussion expressing our individual views. Writing does not allow that same ability.

This is a difficult time of year for all of us. It will be nice to get back to "ordinary time" when the expectations of "families" all gathering and celebrating together will be in the past.

Sorry Ever for hijacking your thread.

[Nas]

I’ll be very brief so as not to hijack this thread. XYZ, if you felt put down by my post on acorn’s thread yesterday, I apologize. My question and sharing of my thoughts was posed in direct conversation with what you posted. That’s all it was intended to be was a continuation of a conversation.
I think a lot of us have heightened emotions this week. I know I am working through some deep sadness over many things. I feel that talking to others and expressing thoughts and feelings is helpful so I’m glad these conversations are happening.

[Reinventing]

I am dismayed by so much advice given that the only way for healing to occur is to stop any contact with them,

I think that it is A way for healing to occur for some people and for a period of time. Not THE way, not THE ONLY way.

In my opinion, the advice to Ever was regarding being around OW, not that she was around her XH at her daughter's party.

I do think that some LBS, especially early on, can lessen the injury to themselves that some MLCers are sending their way when the MLCer is rationalizing their decisions and seems to be the most sure that the LBS is the problem and that the MLCer's fantasy life is the solution.

Removing one's self from additional injury can help some LBS in their path to healing. I am careful to present that as an option to the LBS to consider, not as the way or the only way, but as a way to consider.

I think the strategies the LBS can employ to heal changes over time as they get their sea legs, so to speak.

I also think that the LBS can't fix the MLCer. Lord knows if we could we would share that loud and clear. That includes contact with the MLCer--not saying it's a bad thing, just saying that contact is not the only way for the LBS to feel and show empathy for what the MLCer is going through.

That's why I focus on the LBS and what they need to consider helpful to heal. The LBS can only control the LBS, much as we all would have liked that to be different.

[WHY]

All these explanations and justifications.  Can we take a moment to realize just how insane MLC is?  Overnight, lives are destroyed and life trajectories forever changed.  Children damaged.  Without warning. It just happens.  And there is nothing anyone can do about it. 

How is this not recognized as mental illness and more people around the world trying to understand it?  None of this is ok. 

Sorry rant over.  I’m just still in disbelief sometimes even two years in.  It’s absolutely nuts.

[Evermore]

I wanted to start my reply here with this quote from amazinglove from her thread. It sums up how I feel as well.

The gratitude I have for these wise voices In my life is really something I can’t express properly and thank you doesn’t seem big enough.

I’m very sad to read that some people here have been distressed and feel sad after reading others’ thoughts. For what it’s worth, from my reading I don’t think anyone commenting here was ‘having a go’ at anyone else. And I think there is, in essence, very little disagreement amongst everyone posting that each situation is different and therefore requires a different strategy to heal (and that those strategies can change along the journey). I think the problem is that people are feeling a little judged for their opinion and the strategies those chose. What I find interesting as a bystander to the conversation (and I’m sure I won’t convey this well, so bear with me while I try to find the right words to express my thoughts) is that I don’t believe there was actually any judgement given by anyone.

I know XY sometimes feels judged for the strategy she has chosen. I will admit that I agree with her that there ARE some posters here (on HS in general, not here here) whose ‘go to’ response to newbies is usually ‘you MUST go NC immediately and cut them out of your life!’ with little accounting for the actual situation. I can see how that would concern you XY, because it rankles me a little as well when people are told what they MUST do. I really don’t think that is the majority view here though so I don’t let it bother me.

I don’t think XY was implying that you Treasur, Reinventing or Nas are personally people who do that. I certainly don’t think that and I’m sorry if any of you felt judged and were hurt. I really don’t think that was in any way the intention.

Thank you to all those that share their thoughts here. Everyone’s contribution is welcomed.

[Evermore]

It would have been my 25th wedding anniversary today. I guess it still IS the 25th anniversary?

Either way I knew it was coming up but it didn't even cross my mind today until I scrolled through FB memories and thought, huh, why is there a wedding pi... oh yeah! So I guess that is a good thing and shows how far I've come. I do feel a bit weird now though. But it's that nostalgic kinda sad feeling rather than the incapacitating devastation I have felt for the past 5 anniversaries.

I'm sure that's partly because I'm in a happy new relationship and really moving forward into my new future. M is still fabulous and we're very settled and 'sorted' as a couple. He knows all the history and how I feel and is unfazed.

xh still likes and comments on many of my FB posts and we have occasional 'family logistics' texts (we still have a family health insurance policy and joint bank account). He and OW are looking to buy a house/some land to build a house again and xh recently asked me to remove his name from a joint credit card. I didn't even realise his name was still on that card (it's one I never use).

From the outside I guess many people might think it's all 'worked out for the best'. Intellectually I think that's likely true. Emotionally it's not what I asked for and it still makes me go WTF. I still wish it hadn't happened. I still occasionally dream that we're still together (I did last night ironically... although maybe not, the subconscious is a weird thing and maybe remembered the anniversary even though my conscious mind didn't?).

My FB memory (from March 20 2017) reads: "Happiest Anniversary to my darling hubby XXXXX. Love yooouuu. 18 years married today and together 21 years next week, couldn't be happier. We're livin' the dream honey! Mwah xxxx"

His reply was: "Same back at ya honey, heck of a ride we've had. Now I have ya name tattood on me I can hardly bail out ( unless I find a 'Ever' with a i ). Luv ya madly chook Xxoo"

A year later was first BD and then 6 months after that, gone.

SIL2 says BIL says he's not very happy. I think he thinks that's because they're still renting. we all know that's not true but what are ya gonna do. I truly do just 'wish him well' these days. I know I'm on a healthy new path with a really GOOD man (he really is, makes me smile).

[Reinventing]

But it's that nostalgic kinda sad feeling rather than the incapacitating devastation I have felt for the past 5 anniversaries.

It's nice to get to this point.

I know I'm on a healthy new path with a really GOOD man (he really is, makes me smile).

And one common denominator of both relationships is you. So happy you found someone who makes you smile.

[UrsaMajor]

Hi Ever!

Nice to hear from you again. Sounds like your life is progressing nicely while his ... well ..... like someone told me yesterday, "Do stupid things, win stupid prizes!"

[Evermore]

I am currently away in Melbourne with D23, M and his S12. We’re here to watch a couple of games of footy (one today and another tomorrow). We’ll also likely go to the markets today (if D23 and S12 ever get up, lol, it’s already 9.14 and they’re both still snoring away, haha) and the Melb Aquarium tomorrow. Ds have met M and S12 quite a few times now but this is first time spending considerable time together. It’s very nice. I feel like everything is gelling very well in my new life. I still miss xH, but that life feels further away (most of the time) these days.

We have sporadic, very amicable communication (he wished me a HBDay on FB for instance (and ‘liked’ many of the HBDay messages from other people which was a bit odd). And of course I still know what he’s doing pretty much through the osmotic-in law/Ds-grapevine.

Two days ago I got a waft from D23 of trouble in paradise and I thought it worth documenting. They really don’t say much about their dad at all these days. We rarely mention him. D23 has said a few things recently (but they’re more about what she thinks about him and his slightly odd behaviour (eg always always being very very late for events these days, like 3 or more hours late)).

Two days ago I mentioned something about xH and OW looking to buy a house (we were talking about my finances and possibly buying an investment house with M). D23 said ‘yeah… not sure he’s going to now’. I said ‘oh… how come?’ She said xH was at D25s house recently and he told her that he wasn’t sure about buying a house with OW and ‘obviously was wanting to talk about it’ with D25.

D23 rolled her eyes said she wasn’t surprised and thinks it’s partly because of the drama associated with OWs son (he is about 29 I think and lives with xH and OW, apparently ‘lovely’ but also a bit of a ‘no-hoper’ who has mental heath and drug problems, and can’t keep a job). She also sarcastically said ‘Seeee, I knew this would happen’ (she’s intimated several times that she thinks it’ll all fall apart one day).

So as I said, just a waft, nothing concrete. Funny that I’m pretty much at the stage of hoping it DOES work for them. Way too complicated otherwise.

[MadLuv]

So glad to hear things are going well. Not surprised on XH/OW.  When time passes and real life happens the seeds of doubtS and the everyday human flaws become apparent. Different person, different problems. It’s never the dream!

[UrsaMajor]

Two days ago I got a waft from D23 of trouble in paradise and I thought it worth documenting.

<...snip...>

D23 rolled her eyes said she wasn’t surprised and thinks it’s partly because of the drama associated with OWs son (he is about 29 I think and lives with xH and OW, apparently ‘lovely’ but also a bit of a ‘no-hoper’ who has mental heath and drug problems, and can’t keep a job). She also sarcastically said ‘Seeee, I knew this would happen’ (she’s intimated several times that she thinks it’ll all fall apart one day).

When one builds a house on a foundation made of sand (or jello), it will settle dramatically over time and eventually fall apart....

And, just because there is a new partner on the scene doesn't mean his own demons have gone away. They are still there and still causing the same issues.... Just takes a different path as the constellation of xH/OW/OWKid is different than it was....