[Nas]

I have started to see, through small,l I guess you could call them 'micro-aggressions" (altho i dislike the term) clear, unavoidable evidence that he is not willing to do the work that will be necessary to try and fix 'us'. Moreover I don't believe he is capable of it, even if he had the desire to.

I remember being in this place. For me, the second half of your sentence was the most important in my mind, the realization that even if he wanted to, he wasn’t capable of the type of change I would have needed to get me to a place where I felt valued, safe, secure. All the things I tried so hard to make sure he felt for so long but I had never felt. There was a very distinct moment where I realized (or more accurately, finally admitted to myself) that, with him, I never would. There would be no miraculous waking up, no epiphany, no road to Damascus type turnaround. So I packed myself up and moved away (more on that detail later…) Except it wasn’t as clean and straightforward as I just stated it. It was incredibly painful and messy and scary. And boy did I pay for the sin of choosing myself. If he could have stolen my beating heart from my chest, I think he would have, but he settled for literally everything else. But I was making it work, rebuilding slowly on my own. I had a little faith in myself, and I had so much hope. And with everything I did that showed me a little bit of what life could be, I had more faith in myself and more hope.

It sounds like this trip gave you a little taste of what it would be like to do it on your own, and it was kind of an empowering moment for you. I’m glad you’re going to take legal advice. I don’t know anything about the legalities of divorcing overseas as opposed to here but I hope you will be able to do whatever is most beneficial for you. Because as I said, I moved away. After he moved away. And the different jurisdictions and residency requirements definitely played a role in holding things up, confusing things, and giving him the opportunity to do things I never even thought of, let alone being proactive to prevent them from happening.

So, like Treasur, I wondered if there were benefits to divorcing in your home state as opposed to initiating it in a country where you don’t live but he is a citizen and has family. When it comes to protecting finances and custody issues, I would lean towards making it as simple for yourself as possible, and having the process take place where you already live *seems* like the simplest thing. So again, I hope you can get good legal advice about what is the best for you and the kids. if that turns out to be extremely inconvenient for him, well, too bad for him…

[Helpnewc]

For what it is worth, I agree with what is said by the others.

I have seen too often trouble when things blow up outside your country of residence. I recall acting in a case where a husband took the passports of the children and it took years for the wife to get them back to her country given the laws in the country they were in.

I would just think very carefully about the trip to Turkey. I do not know about the laws there but I would suspect things might be difficult for you if you are a non citizen and something happens.

And your husband is in the throes of the crisis. He is not who he was at the moment and I would urged caution about leaving your home jurisdiction with your kids.

[amazinglove]

Hi all - just wanted to check in with this impressive and infinitely wise group.

H is here, and has been for around 9 days or so. We are co-parenting as friends and it's going ok. We are polite, cordial and kind to each other, and in the middle of these warm interactions are having conversations around logistics of visitation and finances when we split. He is still with his AP. He told me this the day after he got here. They are still in contact and he has not given her up. I told him, ok, then we cannot even try to rebuild anything and we have to pull the plug on this because I am done with forever-limbo. (he would happily go on like this for quite some time to come - keeping me here on deep freeze handling all while he explores his own selfish plans)

He and I are not sleeping together - he is in our son's room - and our plan is to make it a few more weeks together until we all go together to Antalya as a family and then me and the kids come back here. ((For those worried about him abducting them, he does not want kids educated over there and wants them to stay in their school over here - also no way does he want the responsibility and work of them)) he is planning to live in Turkey 6 months a year near his sisters and parents and I reckon the other 6 he will spend a fair amt of that with his AP in Barcelona or Moscow and some of it with his children. I will bring them over there in summers to have time with him and altho this year I am planning to stay a few weeks as we 'transition',  in future I will not stay. He literally wants to just do his 12 hours of client zooms a week and wait until he can start collecting his pension and retire in Turkey in 10 years. He is 44 years old!! As of now, he  plans to never work more than that again.

He is delusional about thinking that he never has to work again and he will be happy with this, and also that we will stay a loving family and also at the same time break up. He doesn't want to move his things out of this home or for me to move my things out of our bedroom over there. He wants half this house (which is legally his) but wants to put it into the next home that I live in with the kids and wants his name on it too - with the provision that everything we own goes to our kids. He does not want to divide anything. (our accounts are already all separate and he is not asking for any of it - including the two he funded that I control). I wlll seek legal advice here in CA and also in Turkey when there. I wil get my ducks in a row before we have these,(certain to be unpleasant given his delusions) conversations. This detente we're enjoying is temporary because my patience is finite and it's exhausted.  He is like a cake eater extraordinaire.

I found a new therapist - this was my 4th or 5th I've tried - and I liked her a lot. She said overcoming betrayal and this kind of infidelity takes transparency, consistency and time - and there is no way to circumvent that process. (let alone actually giving the AP up!) My H is unwilling to do any of them - so I will never trust him again. From his side, one thing that came thru in a conversation we had, is that he resents me deeply for 'making him' move here and give up his dream job in London. He will never get over it and blames me for controlling his life too much. He really does take no accountability for decisions that he was part of and agreed to. It's all my influencing and controlling him.

As for now, he said to me, "i am a cheater, I am a liar and for the first time in my life, I am selfish.'

for the 'first time'?? who is never selfish? no one.  Altho a good man, he was normally selfish as the rest of us are.

someone on here once said that resentment is what pushes them off the ledge when it comes to betrayal and I would have to agree. It certainly seems to be the case for me. He is punishing me for his life not working out how he wanted it to and for not making everything ok for him professionally with the move.

Right now tho, perhaps refreshingly, my focus really is no longer on what he is thinking! Hip Hip Horraay! I have released myself from this prison of constantly trying to understand the inner workings of a mind that is no longer sane or reasonable. I am focused now on how to mitigate his damage - the kids are so happy he's here. They are relaxing into each other and it's been great to see that happen. I am able to keep him at arm's length and be cordial and kind to him. He works around the garden and house during the day while I do my own work (from home), picks up kids from school, cooks dinner and does wash etc. He is pitching in and helping and keeps busy. It feels like we are a family. And yet, we are not in a 'real' marriage. I told him our marriage is a lie right now, and I will not live a lie. This is temporary and we are moving towards divorce.

I suspect I will have to keep reminding him of this.

At least as of right now, things feel calm and settled. I know it won't last, but I am centering myself, catching my breath, and hopefully, hopefully laying some ground work for a friendship as co-parents.

[UrsaMajor]

A GIF is worth 1000 words.....



Just replace "Lunatic" with "Limerent"

[Treasur]

All of us reading can hear the difference in your mindset and wellbeing, and we also know how much effort it takes to get to that first patch of flat solid ground. Literally amazing, love 

We also know that the path from here to next is a winding one. Perspectives change, priorities change, choices change. His perhaps, but more importantly yours.

So everything I’m about to say is in that context. And repeating my previous words about giving yourself time to tune in to your best path regardless of his.

Your post was a long list of his wants, wasn’t it? Which, put simply and much as you said, seem to be that he wants x and y and z while essentially keeping his family, and his role in it, in a box to be taken out periodically when he wants to play with it. I would take what he says at face value. This is what he currently wants and what his plan is to get. Of course, just bc he wants it does not mean he will get it, or indeed that you are obliged to provide it, but this is what he wants. It may or may not work out well for him, but this is what he wants. And apparently feels entitled to have. I would bet cash I don’t have that it simply never occurred to him to ask seriously what you want given the circumstances….am I right? I am not saying this to rant and rave about his rather disappointing character as an adult man, husband and parent…although we can if you want lol. I am saying it to encourage you to be clear-eyed about it, about essentially his ‘proposal’. And how much of it is about his wants and how little of it is about yours or your childrens’ wants or needs.

- He does not want kids educated over there and wants them to stay in their school over here
- he is planning to live in Turkey 6 months a year near his sisters and parents and I reckon the other 6 he will spend a fair amt of that with his AP in Barcelona or Moscow and some of it with his children.
- He literally wants to just do his 12 hours of client zooms a week and wait until he can start collecting his pension and retire in Turkey in 10 years….As of now, he  plans to never work more than that again.
- and also that we will stay a loving family and also at the same time break up.
- He doesn't want to move his things out of this home or for me to move my things out of our bedroom over there.
- He wants half this house (which is legally his) but wants to put it into the next home that I live in with the kids and wants his name on it too - with the provision that everything we own goes to our kids.
- He does not want to divide anything.

As for now, he said to me, "i am a cheater, I am a liar and for the first time in my life, I am selfish.'

There can be great power sometimes in reaching a point where one can calmly accept that what looks like a duck is, in fact, a duck. But also that one is not obliged to invite the duck to sit on your future sofa. Or build a future duck house to their design for seasonal migrations. 

While you carry on with your current plans over the next few weeks, I’d encourage you to take some time to reflect on what some of the terminology means to you in practice, short-term and longer term. And how that might lead you towards what you want regardless of what your h wants bc you now have the information about how he currently sees these things. But that may not be how you see them, and it’s ok if it isn’t. Bc that’s how real life works between adults, isn’t it?

Break up. Separation. Divorce. Co-parenting. Family. House. Home. Limbo. Friends. Cordial. Kind. Helping. Pitching in.

On a very simple level, I can see some significant disadvantages for you in a future life where a ‘virtual husband’ metaphorically - or really - still keeps his boxer shorts in your drawers and his name on the deeds. Or how one practically coparents with an absent figure who lives in another country. But my opinion doesn’t matter….giving yourself the time to reach yours does.

Linking back to my point about things changing though, I would also encourage you to see this as a kind of three body problem; the essence of that is the effect of a third (or more) unknown forces at play on events. Ow’s agenda, how his work/life plans play out financially, your unknown future opportunities and choices….just a few that spring out to me. And how that makes predicting a bit unpredictable. And perhaps why unhooking what you can from those events is worth reflecting on as an act of self protection. The risk I suppose is that, based on your h’s current wants, you could literally be gambling the roof over your head on events beyond your control and when you already have experienced your wants being seemingly irrelevant to others. Jmo, but I’d need to have a bloody big overpowering benefit to outweigh that risk having survived it once. jmo though 

I have no doubt that you will be just fine once the detritus of this major life event shakes out. That might take a little time yet, but it is clear to see from reading here bc of the kind of human you are. In fact, I have a sneaking suspicion that you may even find life a bit easier bc you may come to decide that your h was/is enough of a man child that used quite a lot of your energy that can be joyfully invested elsewhere. But this bit is exhausting, that’s true, and you need a little bit of time to figure out what YOU want in the circumstances that have shown up in your life. Quite possible that your h won’t much like some of your conclusions, but that doesn’t really matter now….whats he going to do, leave you?

From the cheap seats over here, it looks as if your h’s current life plans are based on three sets of people doing what he needs to get what he wants the way he wants it…his own family as an unquestioning base, ow financing the fun, and you and the kids leaving a pop up chair at your table when he wants a daddy/family fix. Like a three-legged stool, things are likely to get tricky if even one leg of the stool stops playing their part. As my much-loved uncle said about my own xh as things got really bonkers,  ‘I’m not sure he’s really thought this through, has he?’ 

So, take your time. Gather the information you need. Don’t let the pressure of needing answers - or him wanting you to agree to particular things - force you into hunting them down…..let your own picture of what your own ‘what next’ needs to look like show up. Bc you have good instincts, and it will show up if you let yourself listen to it.

[Zion]

AL,

You sound good!  I really hope you Spring Break trip with the kiddos was refreshing and grounding.

someone on here once said that resentment is what pushes them off the ledge when it comes to betrayal and I would have to agree. It certainly seems to be the case for me. He is punishing me for his life not working out how he wanted it to and for not making everything ok for him professionally with the move.

I don't think you should take responsibility here.  Limerents are resentment building machines.  He is trying to justify himself.  It is his fault he didn't express this desire or dig his heals into to staying in London.  You are not a mind-reader.  He deferred to you and now he defers to AP.   He needs someone else to be whole... not your making. Amazing Love is a full developed and capable adult and I don't think you have time or energy to build scaffolding around him.  You already have children.

I have full confidence that you are strong enough to protect your children and your interests. 

[amazinglove]

Someone I respect wrote me this week about what I am doing and the way I was handling things with my H like ths: after a relationship has been broken, rather than tearing it apart, right now, I am 'unraveling' it. I liked that analogy. That's what it feels like. Truthfully, I am definitely more of a 'bandaid ripper offer' for myself and always have been, but for my kids' sake, unraveling feels clearly to me to be the best way forward. They are still so very little. It makes me sad that they are losing their 'family' in this way but I cannot fix it.

They are re-bonding with their dad - a guy they've seen only 6 weeks in the past 8 months. They are relaxing into him again, and he them. It's great to see their connection re-forming. There is much laughter and joy between them, and I never resent it, I am glad for it - even tho the one paying the price for all this bonhomie right now, is in fact, me.

He is still with his AP and escapes with phone hidden to the toilet to What'sapp her, or even near me on an adjacent sofa today. He didn't announce it was her or anything, but it was obvious. When I asked him later, 'how do you do that? sit me with me and your daughter watching a tv show and message her?" he replied with a kind of smirk'y smile, 'easily! You asked me not to call her at home and I have not'.  What a total creep he is. 

Treasur v smartly (as usual) encouraged me to think less ab what he wants and what about I want - or my kids need in this case- which will always, always supercede my own. I would say that I need peace in this home and I want my kids to feel connected to their dad. To that end, we are going to eek out another few weeks here and leave here as a family for Antalya  on June 1.  I will stay over there with them all for a few weeks (my sister is joining and for 2 weeks we will all be in a hotel which will allow for lots of individual movement, activities and space). He and I will each be with a kid in separate rooms of an adjoining suite. Then kids can either decide to come back with me in early July or stay with their dad for a few more weeks until early August. At the moment, that could go either way, but H and I are agreed that we want them to look forward to these vacations away with their dad and their Turkish family and if they feel trapped out there, miserable, they won't want to go next year. So we are agreed to see how it goes and make the call when I decide to go.

I am going to move my stuff out of that place and also I am going to escape for a few days to go see my own friends in London. It will be great for me to get away for a few days and we can see how the kids do on their own with him as a 'trial' run for when I leave in early July. They will be safe physically sure, but emotionally he is incapable of caring for them, and altho his mom and sisters will fill in, it remains to be seen if it will go well. He is still incredibly selfish and in his own bubble and his moods are still mercurial. He also sleeps a lot and seems tired a lot.

When he texts with her he is like a diff person. Like all of a sudden a burst of energy, like drunk and jazzed up and buzzing - it's literally like a drug. With some objectivity, it's so strange to observe this. I don't as I once did, feel hugely jolted or devastated by it, but it's more like puzzled and perplexed, and I guess deeply disappointed in who this person (I no longer recognize) is. The power of this limerence, this false reality - the price of which is unimaginable - and paid so readily - will never be something I understand.

You will all be glad to know that I am going into  my LA office next week to ensure privacy and contacting lawyers. I will take advice and my plan is, after I sacrifice my summer vacation this year - to help my kids get used to summers there without mommy- I will move ahead in the autumn to make things more official. I will attempt to speak to him more about the details of this, but not today and not when I still have 8 more weeks of togetherness looming.  The right moment will present itself if there is such a thing, and if it does not, i will do this on the phone once me and my kids are all safely back here and all together.

Today we went to church, all of us. And the sermon was all about broken relationships. Nice timing right? He said that those who go from one broken relationship to another bring chaos and confusion into everything they do -and the more they break and move on from, the more chaos and confusion they bring with them into the next one. He also said that the quality of your relationships defines the quality of your life. And he said that if you messed up you need to own it, confess to them and ask for forgiveness - and if you need to forgive someone (as God has forgiven us) then do so, but forgiveness, and letting go of bitterness, and giving them over to God for his justice not ours,  is not the same as forgetting, or excusing or trusting that person again. It was empowering for me to hear all of this - altho kind of painful sitting next to him listening to it. It was a little bit on the nose. H was clearly uncomfortable by the message (you could see it in his body language) but also really compelled and hanging on every word, and teary. Afterwards my H said it was like it was written "just for us". And i said, yes God has been very clearly directly and not so subtly making known to me that He knows and He cares. I said, I have my own work to do. (meaning towards forgiveness) which I will and continue to do.

The last part of the message was about hope. Hope for a better future, a better relationship, reconciliation in some way - or maybe not - but hope for healing and a brighter tomorrow. I said in an earlier post on here that hope was my enemy and it was not welcome. But that was when I was hoping for my H to have some kind of awakening , to shake off this sinful, shameful, self-centered being that he carries around right now. That is no longer what fills my heart with hope. In fact, today, hearing about hope was the best part of all that he said.

Because, dear folks, I am starting to see some light at the end of this tunnel. It's just cracks of it to be fair, and I still see a lot of s*** I still have to wade through to get there, but there is light, it's clear and bright, and it's for me, just over the horizon. 

[amazinglove]

One ps  - after writing this I asked him not to text his gf anymore while sitting next to me as I find it emotionally abusive (knowing how I’m triggered by that) and disrespectful. He freaked out, said for years he had put my happiness first, at the expense of his own, I had killed his happiness in fact. I said calmly, let’s evaluate that statement again in 3 years shall we? Without me in your life we can reflect on how much happier you are then and if you’re right, away from me, great happiness is sure to follow! He then stormed around and said I should leave next week; I am not comfortable here. And I looked up from the tv and said bc I asked you not to text your gf?” I said put yourself in my shoes. If this was reversed. And he said if it was reversed this would not be happening at all. (Ie he would not be sharing a home with me or talking to me) and I said, well ab leaving do what you have to do. And then I ignored him. I did not go upstairs to talk or follow him out of the room I went back to my fixer to fabulous episode.
He came back down later and was nicer, invited me to finish the movie we started ydy which I wanted to finish and said yes to and he peeled a pear and offered it to me.
I have no regrets ab what I said even if he does leave early. I am doing my best for my kids to keep the peace but when someone is blatantly disrespectful to me in my own home, I cannot stay quiet.
I still have hope. 

[Treasur]

And he said if it was reversed this would not be happening at all. (Ie he would not be sharing a home with me or talking to me)

Funny how sometimes, although they lie so much, the truth can accidentally seep out in small ways.
I think what you (and we) see as grace and strength for your kids, he sees as a kind of weakness. Perhaps a point of leverage even or a way to exercise some power over you. Funny how he sounds as if threatening to leave  - again- is still a threat you should care about? (Or do you? Idk) but he clearly thinks that he is Bertie Big Pants and that you give a damn.

And of course, he isn’t in the mindset of putting his kids first….it is literally beyond his comprehension. And his reaction was very MLC teenager, very textbook 

You were quite right and reasonable to say ‘please don’t do this’.
But here’s the lesson imho hidden in the margin.
You can’t control what he does, only how you respond when he does. And I think you are still sort of asking which suggests to me that you have some expectations of him that are unlikely to hold water. We get that; there’s something rather horrible about having to think so poorly of someone in this situation, about adjusting one’s eye so much. It often means having to swallow realities we really really don’t want to swallow….but are forced to when we look at the pattern of feet over mouth.
But again jmo, I think we are already on the losing side of the fence when we find ourselves explaining how and why to be a decent human being to another adult. They either want to or they don’t, they get it or they don’t. And their first reaction - and his - tells you if they do. Anymore beyond that is a waste of breath and energy.

So, let me play devils advocate for a moment…..

It reads as if a lot of your current behaviour - him staying in the house, the big Antalya plan - is based on your desire for your kids to have a connection with their father.
How much do you honestly control that?
How much connection do you want them to feel if their reality is going to be a father who shows up for a few weeks every 8 months and then goes again?
What if your job was not to facilitate the connection he maintains with them, but just not to get in the way of it if he does?
And how much age appropriate truth do your kids know about what’s happening and what is going to happen next? Are they being inadvertently gaslit into believing something different bc you are trying to protect them from the truth? And he is trying to look like good Daddy? And you as evil Mommy who has eaten his happiness, of course? (And by default, the unspoken message that they were not enough to make him happy either and that they have to do the kid version of a happy pick me dance for him to not go again. Bc kids are simple creatures when it comes to making 2+2 = 5)

Not questions you need to answer here but, as all parents here know all too well, questions worth reflection perhaps.

I am glad you are seeing a lawyer. I hope you talk to them about your Antalya plans. A month + is a long time imho. I have some concerns about your plans although you may feel it is too late to change them. I am glad your sister is joining you for some of it.

The essence of unravelling imho is slowly bridging the gap between hopes and reality. For all of you.

I would keep their passports in my handbag at all times. Including when/if I visit London.

I would make a plan now that they return with you in July rather than stay there with him. I would inform everyone of that. Put certainty into the mix of an uncertain situation rather than leaving it dependent on the reactions of small children (and an adult teenager). Neither may like it but sometimes that’s what being the standing adult in the room means, doesn’t it? That you’re the one with a plan lol.

I would tell the kids that things are in transition for a while bc daddy has decided that he no longer wants to live with mommy,  that you will all be ok but some things will work a bit differently in future. That there will be future times in Turkey but there are some things to work out first. I would tell his family the same.

And I would make this the very last time that he stays in your home in order to spend time with his children. (Ironically the universe has given you an opportunity to use this latest exchange as a clear reason to say so, and inform him that this is how it will be from here on in so he can have time to figure out for himself how that will work.)

Bc that is the reality of what happens when one person decides to leave their marriage for new pastures in another country. And the only sane stable consistent show up parent is going to be you so where you go, the kids go.
Bc this is, sadly, reality. A new normal that is not the old normal. And there’s a time of transition that comes with that in life, isn’t there? Not such a nice or easy time until you get to the other side of it. And, perhaps, a little bit of your heart is still in denial about the kind of father that your kids are going to have in practice in this new normal. Him too, maybe. Perhaps it’s just too early to know yet how that will unfurl. But imho it will be a different kind of connection bc ‘Dad for a few weeks’ is not the same as ‘everyday Dad’ who knows who your friends are and takes you to school. It just can’t be. And sadly you can’t protect your little ones from that reality or what they do with it.

I’m so sorry. Every parent here will get how you feel and why you are doing what you are doing, even better than I can. And in my imagination, it must be the most awful thing in an awful situation. (And I would like to virtually punch your husband in the face, just a little bit, bc it’s a $h!tety thing to do to little people and for what. Grrr. Is that ok lol? Or just a big custard pie in his face lol? But still, it is as it is and you can’t control that. Double grrr though.)

[UrsaMajor]

One ps  - after writing this I asked him not to text his gf anymore while sitting next to me as I find it emotionally abusive (knowing how I’m triggered by that) and disrespectful. He freaked out, said for years he had put my happiness first, at the expense of his own, I had killed his happiness in fact. I said calmly, let’s evaluate that statement again in 3 years shall we? Without me in your life we can reflect on how much happier you are then and if you’re right, away from me, great happiness is sure to follow! He then stormed around and said I should leave next week; I am not comfortable here. And I looked up from the tv and said bc I asked you not to text your gf?” I said put yourself in my shoes. If this was reversed. And he said if it was reversed this would not be happening at all. (Ie he would not be sharing a home with me or talking to me) and I said, well ab leaving do what you have to do.

 Oh look... He is having a temper tantrum.... Isn't that cute... 


"You want to leave? Don't let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya' on your way out.... "