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Poll

How aware /conscious/ mindfull were you pre-BD? For example did you know about 90/10  rule, did you let your stress reactions (fight, flight etc) control your behaviour. Etc

Not aware at all
5 (35.7%)
Slightly aware
6 (42.9%)
Moderately aware
2 (14.3%)
Lot aware
0 (0%)
Fully aware
1 (7.1%)

Total Members Voted: 14

Author Topic: Mirror-Work Poll to male LBS: how aware/conscious/mindfull were you pre-BD?

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Just something I've been thinking... About how happy our marriages were in reality.

The more I learn, the more I realize how little I have known (and how much better things could and should have been).

I'm bit ashamed to admit I was very much on the low end of the awareness scale.  I was very much drifting, letting my feelings and stress reactions run the show in good and bad. I was not putting much concious effort for my marriage.  It was all driven by monkey brains (at least on my part).

Maybe it's just me or maybe not (hence this poll), but I feel a lot of men are like I was - until something similar to BD shakes us awake and forces change to happen.

And yes, I know the options if slightly/moderately/lot aware are subjective and relative personal opinion of each.
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At time of BD.... Me: 43, XW: 41
Kids: G19,G18,G14,G12,S5
Together - 20½ Years, Married 19 Years

BD ("I don't love you"): Feb 2019, 
BD2 ("I don't want to fix this marriage."), Mar 2020
D filed May 2020, D finalized Dec 2020
I have moved on, and am in new relationship.

Lessons from Stoicism and REBT helped me to exit the chaos zone and become a better person. 

"Happiness and freedom begin with a clear understanding of one principle: Some things are within our control, and some things are not. - Epictetus"

t
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I keep refreshing the page to see if someone has answered this yet!

For what it’s worth, what you’ve said of your pre-BD awareness and manner, I think that was pretty much mine also. I’m interested to see if there is any difference between genders on this item, and regardless, I will definitely appreciate any answers from our LBS guys here.

Thank you for great question and thoughtfulness!
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I answered right in the middle, moderately aware...... but the question is a little confusing to me.
I put a lot of effort into my M, did what I thought was "Good", but as a whole.... totally missed the boat..... no instruction manual.

The flip side is W was lost too, and had all kinds of unresolved issues that really caused issues in me.
So is it that we are so lost? Was our pre-BD spouse coloring our behavior with theirs?
I honestly think I was a very good H before BD all things considered (but nowhere near perfect, I had my issues too). If she hadn't had issues leading up to BD I would have received everything I needed and been an even better H than I was..... but you get what you get, no crying over what could have been and no finger pointing except at myself.

Know what I mean?

-SS
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W - 43
M - 46
Together 28 years, M 25
No kids
BD - 27th April 2019
Start of Shadow - Feb 2012

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Know what I mean?

Yep. 110%.

My point with question is very much about perception.... We believed we were good spouses, and we were the best we knew of. But when looking back now, I just want to gringe my teeth. What lessons did I miss at school/life???

Ignorance may be a bliss, but when you wake up and realize what you missed the first time,  the world looks very different.

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At time of BD.... Me: 43, XW: 41
Kids: G19,G18,G14,G12,S5
Together - 20½ Years, Married 19 Years

BD ("I don't love you"): Feb 2019, 
BD2 ("I don't want to fix this marriage."), Mar 2020
D filed May 2020, D finalized Dec 2020
I have moved on, and am in new relationship.

Lessons from Stoicism and REBT helped me to exit the chaos zone and become a better person. 

"Happiness and freedom begin with a clear understanding of one principle: Some things are within our control, and some things are not. - Epictetus"

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Oh yeah!!! I totally identify with that!!!

Hahahahah

2nd times a charm right? I actually think it really is.

-SS
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W - 43
M - 46
Together 28 years, M 25
No kids
BD - 27th April 2019
Start of Shadow - Feb 2012

D
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Just something I've been thinking... About how happy our marriages were in reality.

The more I learn, the more I realize how little I have known (and how much better things could and should have been).

I'm bit ashamed to admit I was very much on the low end of the awareness scale.  I was very much drifting, letting my feelings and stress reactions run the show in good and bad. I was not putting much concious effort for my marriage.  It was all driven by monkey brains (at least on my part).

Maybe it's just me or maybe not (hence this poll), but I feel a lot of men are like I was - until something similar to BD shakes us awake and forces change to happen.

And yes, I know the options if slightly/moderately/lot aware are subjective and relative personal opinion of each.

Right there with you, Alvin.  And the more I read and learn about the differences between men and women, the more sad it makes me that all of these things could/should have been avoided.  I think very few marriages are actually, genuinely, healthy and happy, because of the different perceptions, reactions and ways of communicating between the sexes.  Probably 10%, mostly by luck.  40% are marginally happy or staying together,  but not fulfilled.  The other 50% end in a crises driven explosion or amicable/contentious normal divorce.

My opinion only.
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M=51
W=47
D=8
BD Feb 17 Thinking of divorce
Atomic BD June 17 Spying revealed OM at work
Still home.  Threatened to leave several times and has asked me to leave about a dozen. 
Says divorce proceedings will start Jan 18.
She has scheduled mediation Feb 7,  2018
I moved out March 16, 2018
Several mediations, mostly instigated by me.  Foot dragging by STBXW.  Nothing filed. Yet.
5/2019 STBXW filed D behind my back despite signed agreement to mediate.
I retain attorney.
STBXW still hasn't told me and no further action.
Elephant in the room has been addressed.  No further action atm.  Weighing my options.
12/16/19  She files financial paperwork.  Divorce proceeding.

M
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I get the impression that your hypothesis is that prior to BD our marriages should have been better but weren't because our level of awareness was low. Perhaps you might even be suggesting that BD occurred because our marriages weren't as good as we thought they were because our awareness level was so low.

I don't buy it. I'll admit my awareness level was relatively low but I know that we had a good marriage for at least 30 years. I don't see a correlation between awareness and how good the marriage was, between awareness and MLC, or between how good the marriage was and MLC.

MLC doesn't happen because our awareness level was low or because we were in an unhappy marriage. MLC happens because the MLCer has a crisis that is related to childhood events that occurred long before they married us.

I know a lot of men who I would say have a pretty low level of awareness. None of their wives are going through an MLC.

Looking back now that I have a higher level of awareness, are there things that I would have done differently? Yes.

If I had done those things, would it have stopped my wife from having an MLC? I'm pretty sure the answer is no. Her MLC has nothing to do with me or the quality of our marriage prior to her MLC.

I agree that having a low level of awareness could lead to an unhappy marriage and possibly a traditional divorce. That isn't the case with an MLC.
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No hidden hypothesis there, MBIB.

Just honest question.

Self growth is all about change.
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« Last Edit: October 04, 2019, 10:05:05 AM by AlvinTheMaker »
At time of BD.... Me: 43, XW: 41
Kids: G19,G18,G14,G12,S5
Together - 20½ Years, Married 19 Years

BD ("I don't love you"): Feb 2019, 
BD2 ("I don't want to fix this marriage."), Mar 2020
D filed May 2020, D finalized Dec 2020
I have moved on, and am in new relationship.

Lessons from Stoicism and REBT helped me to exit the chaos zone and become a better person. 

"Happiness and freedom begin with a clear understanding of one principle: Some things are within our control, and some things are not. - Epictetus"

M
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Just something I've been thinking... About how happy our marriages were in reality.

I have no issues with your survey but this statement bothers me.

In terms of self growth, your survey makes sense, but I don't see any relationship between your survey question and MLC.

Just my honest reaction. Self-improvement is good unless we're doing it because we think we caused our spouse's MLC.
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I answered right in the middle, moderately aware...... but the question is a little confusing to me.
I put a lot of effort into my M, did what I thought was "Good", but as a whole.... totally missed the boat..... no instruction manual.

The flip side is W was lost too, and had all kinds of unresolved issues that really caused issues in me.
So is it that we are so lost? Was our pre-BD spouse coloring our behavior with theirs?
I honestly think I was a very good H before BD all things considered (but nowhere near perfect, I had my issues too). If she hadn't had issues leading up to BD I would have received everything I needed and been an even better H than I was..... but you get what you get, no crying over what could have been and no finger pointing except at myself.

Know what I mean?

-SS

I couldn't have put it better than this.. I don't think anybody knows how to be married, but I wanted to and was willing to try despite that I had baggage too. My xW's FOO baggage just totally outweighed mine and I wasn't given the love and validation I needed, that I was giving her, despite my own baggage. So her issues, made mine worse which simply fed her own unhappiness and sense of crisis. But I know I was a good husband because I tried and I gave her what I wanted to receive. I too think that had I been given that, I would have stabilized and grown and we would have grown together.

It may seem like I'm passing the blame and I'm not. Like most people, we were married when we were young and it was our first marriage. We had no "if I had to do it over again" frame of reference then.. Nobody here did..
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b
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I have always said my xh's bd was really just my awakening, if that tells you anything.  I was very much aware going towards bd that things didn't seem right with him, but by that point I was just to beat down to push the envelope.

I had tried the best I knew how to be the loving, supportive and devoted partner, but when little of that same effort was returned, over time my own efforts admittedly became less and less.  So, yes, I was somewhat aware, but not to the true extent of his brokenness.   Not that it would have mattered anyway.  Now, it's just all water under the bridge.  I chose to swim for shore.  Pretty sure he's still barely keeping his head above water.
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Quote
I had tried the best I knew how to be the loving, supportive and devoted partner, but when little of that same effort was returned, over time my own efforts admittedly became less and less.

That seems to be the thing that rings true in all of our stories  :( I think some people are so damaged by their past, they just aren't functionally capable of being in a give take situation. I don't even like using that phrase. Ideally, it should be give give.
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And maybe having  low awareness is not just a male thing, but also why I could not comprehend how escape and avoidant my XH actually was and why having an MLC would likely happen. "Happy" and "good" are relative terms, in any case. I had a happy marriage, XH apparantly not so much. Did I have low awareness of his "needs", did he just not tell me his "needs", or did his "needs" change? Might there also be a thing as over mindful?

Determining our level of awareness/conciousness/mindfulness has zero to do with the marriage unless that is the only area of a person's life where they were lacking. Is lack of mindfulness like taking people for granted?  Isn't it taken for granted that people who love you will let you know if you are hurting them so you can modify your behavior or that a partnership is about trust the other partner will not stab you in the back or betray you?  If an MLCer  just wanted "something different",  the LBS's mindfulness or lack thereof might have  had nothing to do with the price of butter.

Do you think you lived your entire existence unaware or unmindful and driven on monkey brains, or could it be, like Gman mentions, that someone else who is dysfunctional caused your descent into unmidfulness and that is the only part you recall right now?
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When life gives you lemons, make SALSA!

b
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Quote
I had tried the best I knew how to

That seems to be the thing that rings true in all of our stories  :( I think some people are so damaged by their past, they just aren't functionally capable of being in a give take situation. I don't even like using that phrase. Ideally, it should be give give.

I agree.  I honestly do not believe my xh to be a terrible person at his core, despite where he's at now.  I do believe our upbringings prepared for drastically different views and ideas of what a loving relationship requires and of how it looked and felt.  His was a family of chaos, anger and functioned solely on dysfunction.   Mine was not perfect, but it was responsible,  rational and stable in stark comparison.   We just were not a match.
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