[xyzcf]

New thread time.

Previous threads:
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11420.0
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11436.0

I am bringing  Nerissa's post over from thread #2 that she just posted. It contains information that I too read about yesterday that are very concerning.

Nerissa


Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#151: Today at 05:41:51 PM
Quote
Now as to Covid, each day my state and my county prints various number totals.  Our totals are running higher in younger people than older.  And the illness is seeming to last about 5 days, most not being terribly sick, most not hospitalized.  Does this mean anything particular?  I doubt it.  Our recovered 93 year old said she just kept moving so her lungs stayed clearer and she sat out in the sun in her yard.  I'm not sure that means anything either, but she's become quite the local celebrity.

I don’t know. But I’ve written elsewhere that I was studying online at the weekend with some physicians who said they were encountering episodes of psychosis in hospitalised COVID patients.

And then I’ve just seen a headline in the WSJ.  (Article behind paywall)
Quote
“Coronavirus Ravages the Lungs. It Also Affects the Brain.
As Covid-19 cases mount, doctors are seeing patients who are experiencing symptoms like seizures, hallucinations and loss of smell and taste”

Early on in this, I felt  relaxed for myself.  My parents and aunts and uncles live in the countryside and are kept an eye on by my brother and cousins.  My children are not of vulnerable ages and I’m fit and not quite in the at risk age group.  I’ve signed up for volunteering with the NHS and a local group but I have become more concerned because those I know who have had it at my age are recently over it and are very wiped out. They don’t know yet if there will be lasting problems, but lung scarring and subsequent reduced lung capacity has always been noted as an after effect.  That isn’t a nice prospect.  I’m not too thrilled either about the thought of potential neurological effects, post infection.

It’s fine while in lockdown - the rules about contact are clear and I can be in control of myself for the time being.  When it is relaxed I’ll need to make decisions daily about what I do, who I see and where I go and how.  I think that may become very wearing and I think the effects of deciding which friends have been able to be cautious about their movements and contacts and which have not is going to be quite stressful.

[lawprofessor]

My neighbor just called in a panic, fever, sweating, etc.  She wanted me to take her grandson.  I frantically put on my shoes etc and headed over.

On my way over she called again.

"False alarm.  I was having a hot flash."

Women around my age will understand.

Lp

[Nas]

My neighbor just called in a panic, fever, sweating, etc.  She wanted me to take her grandson.  I frantically put on my shoes etc and headed over.

On my way over she called again.

"False alarm.  I was having a hot flash."

Women around my age will understand.

Lp

😂😂😂😂

LP, thanks for the bit of levity.

I get the most awful hot flashes from chemo and a few times in the past few weeks even I have had one and immediately taken my temperature and had to pause and tell myself, “It’s just the chemo, it’s not coronavirus!” 🤦‍♀️

[MyBrainIsBroken]

Nerissa's post reminded me of something I read when I was younger. I can't remember it exactly but it went something like this.

I've read so much about the ill effects of smoking and drinking and carrying on with wild women that I've decided to give up reading.

Not exactly the same situation as Covid-19 but regardless, I've been trying to limit the amount of time that I spend reading about Covid-19 since so many of the articles seem to be filled with speculation about dire consequences. Most people who test positive for Covid-19 seem to recover eventually with no ill effects but those stories don't seem to make it into print (or pixels). From what I've been able to find, though, it sounds like Tom Hanks and Rita Wilson and Pink and her son are doing fine now.

[MyBrainIsBroken]

I just learned that my cousin, who is also my favorite ER nurse at the main hospital we transport patients to, has been hospitalized with Covid-19. One of her children has also tested positive and they've been told to assume the whole family has it. They aren't testing the rest of the family.

The county where I live has just 32 confirmed cases. The county next to us, where she lives, has just 35 and her hospital has only 3 Covid-19 patients. The numbers dont tell the true story.

I'm pretty overwhelmed. She's still in her 30s.

[xyzcf]

It is vastly different to read about the “cases” and to know the people personally. Please keep us up to date. I pray for her complete recovery as well as for her family and you.

[Treasur]

I'm so sorry to hear the news about your cousin and her family, Brain. You are all in our thoughts and we hope that she recovers with good hospital care. Please take care of yourself too. X

[marvin4242]

MBIB: so sorry to hear about your cousin, here is hoping for a speedy recovery. Do you know how many days in was she hospitalized? Does she have any potentially complicating other factors? From what I am reading there are more and more tools being used around the world to treat people after hospitalization but before pneumonia sets in and intubation is necessary as we go. I was wondering about when steroids would be started to modulate overactive immune response, and I just read they are starting to, the challenge is dosing correctly to allow the immune system to fight off the viral damage but modulate enough to prevent or stop the Cytokine storm.

You are absolutely correct, the numbers are yet incomplete and don’t show what is happening. There is also hidden cases (including raise in mortality that hasn’t been directly assigned to Covid).

[marvin4242]

And then I’ve just seen a headline in the WSJ.  (Article behind paywall)
Quote
“Coronavirus Ravages the Lungs. It Also Affects the Brain.
As Covid-19 cases mount, doctors are seeing patients who are experiencing symptoms like seizures, hallucinations and loss of smell and taste”

Found and read the article, it is from April 14. The headline is a bit more “dramatic” than what the content says. Essentially it lists some common neurological symptoms reported previously (loss of small, burning in nose, numbness, etc). And states that it is not yet clear whether it is from the virus directly effecting nervous system or a side effect of immune reaction. I am sure this will become clear over time. It also states how certain other viruses and diseases (HIV, measles) CAN infect the brain and cause neurological symptoms or conditions. So this is all hypothesis, and the numbers reported are not high enough for this to be a primary mode for the virus (maybe).

Another thing that will be sorted out, but right now I personally wouldn’t be too concerned for this being a huge part of the pandemic. I think the dangers are still the comorbidity with other factors (which more and more seems include people who live in high air pollution areas) and the immune system overreaction. I have already seen discussion of whether the current pollution reduction seen because of reduction of activity needs to be somehow capitalized upon to reduce pollution for health.

I also read how dangerous this is for coal miners suffering from “black lung” syndrome. That combined with the economic conditions in those areas can be a very bad combination unless those communities isolates the spread.

[Nerissa]

The headline is a bit more “dramatic” than what the content says. Essentially it lists some common neurological symptoms reported previously (loss of small, burning in nose, numbness, etc). And states that it is not yet clear whether it is from the virus directly effecting nervous system or a side effect of immune reaction.

Thanks for the explanation, Marvin.  So much yet to be found out.  I’m annoyed with our flailing government’s lack of transparency.

Brain, I do hope your cousin and her family will get well.  Medical
Staff are being asked so much at present and they are so incredibly willing to give in circumstances where they aren’t properly protected.  There are calls here to cancel university fees for nurses.  I think it’s going to be the least they deserve.

 Are you working as a paramedic during this time?  my friends  daughter is working as a paramedic in  London.  She was almost certainly infected early on and is back at work dealing with the frightened and vulnerable.  Her mum has come home from living overseas but can’t live with and care for her daughter or see her own mum who is in a home.   There is loss for people on so many levels.

Today there is a roadside vigil for a local Vicar at my childhood home.  He died of a heart attack and with covid.  He was in his fifties - wife and three daughters the youngest of whom is 19.  In the absence of holding a proper funeral, his hearse is being driven around the five parishes he served.

A potential Vaccine trial begins here tomorrow, tested in real people.

https://www.research.ox.ac.uk/amp/Article/2020-04-22-latest-on-oxford-s-fight-against-covid-19?__twitter_impression=true
Keep safe everyone!

[Nerissa]

But on a lighter note I’ve just received a Voice message from one of my recovered friends.  She has an African Grey parrot who talks and mimics a lot.  He has learned to mimic the dry covid cough and sniffles he heard in the household and she sent me the recording of his voice!

[Nerissa]

It also states how certain other viruses and diseases (HIV, measles) CAN infect the brain and cause neurological symptoms or conditions. So this is all hypothesis, and the numbers reported are not high enough for this to be a primary mode for the virus (maybe).

Oh and Fao Marvin , further to your helpful investigation, the Royal
college of Psychiatrists have today started asking their members to begin logging and reporting the  neuropsychiatric effects of covid they see.

[xyzcf]

Good morning all.

Something I read talked about COVID and strokes, not sure where but indeed, many bacterial and viral infections can affect the brain.

This looks interesting:
https://ethics.harvard.edu/covid-roadmap?fbclid=IwAR2IuHo_Dpt-ODCagS7RzVLL0P-hGjtrK3bB9g6o3JCN4GUKwuRoPedmHo0

"Our bipartisan group of experts in economics, public health, technology, and ethics from across the country, with support from The Rockefeller Foundation, has released the nation’s first comprehensive operational roadmap for mobilizing and reopening the U.S. economy in the midst of the COVID-19 crisis.

"Roadmap to Pandemic Resilience: Massive Scale Testing, Tracing, and Supported Isolation (TTSI) as the Path to Pandemic Resilience for a Free Society," lays out how a massive scale-up of testing, paired with contact tracing and supported isolation, can rebuild trust in our personal safety and re-mobilize the U.S. economy.

Among the report’s top recommendations is the need to deliver at least 5 million tests per day by early June to help ensure a safe social opening. This number will need to increase to 20 million tests per day by mid-summer to fully re-mobilize the economy.

For a video explanation of the Roadmap, see Vi Hart's video "How We Reopen" on YouTube.

You can also find the report and related material at the Pandemic Resilience Roadmap website, www.pandemictesting.org.


Correction: The April 20, 2020, 6am posting of the Roadmap to Pandemic Resilience contained an error which has been corrected in the 12pm posting. The earlier posting attributed to the Broad Institute (Cambridge, MA) estimates of a capacity to achieve 1 million tests per day. This was a reporting error. The correct information is that the Broad Institute, which analyzed 250,000 samples a day for the Human Genome Project, is a good example of the kind of lab that might be stood up to achieve a capacity of 1 million tests per day."

[Thunder]

Oh Nerissa, that is hilarious!!!

I'd like to hear that parrot.

[marvin4242]

Oh Nerissa, that is hilarious!!!

I'd like to hear that parrot.

I'd take that parrot with me when I was outside and aim it people who are not keeping quite the right amount of distance!

 

[MyBrainIsBroken]

Thank you for all of the nice comments regarding my cousin. They are very much appreciated. Xyz is correct, the situation looks a lot different when somebody you care about is ill with this disease. I was very upset last night! My rational mind knows that most people who contract Covid-19 seem to recover with no lasting effects but my emotional mind has been affected by all of the hysteria surrounding this disease and my emotional mind was running the show last night.

I got some very good news this morning! My cousin is doing so much better that she may be going home today! I can't tell you how relieved I am to know this but I will be more relieved when I know that she's home and she and her family are all fully recovered.

In response to Marvin's queestions, my cousin has been sick for about a week. It was quite mild at first and she thought it was allergies. She was able to be tested because she's a healthcare worker. She has only been in the hospital for about two days. She has no comorbidities. Her only real vulnerability is that she is an ER nurse. Her story was covered by the big city TV news.

I believe failing to provide our healthcare workers with proper PPE borders on criminal negligence but I know that idea will fly like a lead balloon. In my experience politicians and administrators are very good at CYA.

Thanks again for your support! I'm still a little shaken up and I just read on FB that one of our UK forum members has an Aunt who has been hospitalized with Covid-19 so now my heart aches for her and her Aunt.

Editing to add a bit more information. This social distancing makes things so difficult! My cousin did spend one night in ICU and a couple of her children are still pretty sick.

One more addition. My granddaughter is finishing her first year of college in a 4 year Nursing major. She just told me one of her friends who was planning to become an ICU nurse has decided that she can't do it and is changing her major.

My granddaughter still wants to become a nurse, probably an OR nurse, but she is worried about finances because she hasn't been able to work at her part-time job. Now she doesn't know how she's going to pay for her schooling this fall. I hope some consideration will be given to providing incentives for kids who want to work in healthcare now that we know not only how important those jobs are but also how dangerous they can be.

[marvin4242]

First: there seems to be very preliminary information that one of the Covid 19 virus is inflammation of cardiovascular system, which may lead to increase in micro clots. There have been some reports of detection of these clots in some patients who did poorly (without a primary cause) and may be what is causing some of the other organ stressors that are seen. Even in some of the non pneumonia cases there was reports of micro clots were causing the reduction in lung oxygen function. Some are in fact putting patients on low doses of anti coagulants as a precaution, but to be clear this has NOT been testing methodically, its a hypothesis from field reports. If this is the case it could explain some of the cases where people show very low blood oxygen without realizing it, and other complications. A careful administration of anti coagulants may help. What is not clear is whether this is a side effect of an over active immune system or a symptom of the virus' behaviour.

Second: An interesting read about the cost of social distancing to the economy vs the cost if more deaths occurred. Please note I am NOT advocating that human lives can have a numerical dollar value put on them. I think this is an interesting read to get context that even if we ignored the deaths (which we should NOT) it would not help the economy. In fact it would hurt the economy.

It is a bit counterintuitive, specially as people are struggling in the moment. But the truth it there is no "big economy" conflict between saving lives and minimizing the bigger damage to world economy.

And this is before the consideration that money is just a means to an end to make human lives better (at least it is to me). Not an ends to itself.

"The value of lives saved by social distancing outweighs the costs"

https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/04/the-value-of-lives-saved-by-social-distancing-outweighs-the-costs/

edit: not sure how much of this overlaps with the podcast posted earlier from NPR, haven't had a chance to listen yet, sorry if its redundant.

[xyzcf]

There is more data coming out that shows how strokes may be a complication of COVID.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/22/health/strokes-coronavirus-young-adults/index.html

Because this virus was an unknown virus, much will become known about it over time.

From the article Marvin posted...this really causes me to sit up:

"a model published by a team at Imperial College London estimated that if the pandemic were allowed to rampage through the United States unmitigated, it would lead to around 2.2 million deaths. Current estimates suggest that the total death toll by August may be more in the region of 60,000 to 124,000 deaths—if (and it’s a huge if) social-distancing measures stay in place. That’s a horrific number, but at its most optimistic, it means 2.14 million fewer deaths than that worst-case scenario. This means that the estimate of 1.24 million lives saved could be on the low side."

Things like that help me to remain committed to social distancing and wearing a mask. If the numbers are anywhere near correct (and many experts continue to express the need to continue with these measures) then continuing to practice them is essential.

Dr. Fauci's talk yesterday, that if we are careful not to rush with reopening things, and follow these measures, that we shall be in a much better place in the fall when we get hit with a double whammy of influenza and COVID.

I think that it is very important to understand that vaccination for influenza in the fall will be a very important measure to also decrease the stress on the health care system. I know that many people do not get vaccinated for influenza and perhaps we need to rethink what stops us from getting that vaccine.

[xyzcf]

A very good look at how we are impacted by loneliness and what we can do. Well worth watching the video. Dr. Laurie Santos from Yale University "The Happiness Lab"

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/22/opinions/loneliness-is-a-petri-dish-for-depression-but-youre-not-alone-gray/index.html

[OldPilot]

This is probably not big news but underlying conditions are a major contributor to covid-19 deaths.

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/sickest-covid-19-patients-underlying-conditions-are-common-large-study-n1189906

So just like with MLC/LBS we must take care of ourselves.

[marvin4242]

Interesting info today from NYC, preliminary testing results show 20% of NYC residents may already have antibodies which means they were exposed and had covid virus. This would mean the virus was much more widespread than thought and the death rates in general population is lower than numbers show. Not that its not serious rather we hopefully won’t end up at 3-4% mortality but sub 1%. Lower is better.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/23/nyregion/coronavirus-antibodies-test-ny.html

[lawprofessor]

I'm sorry, I'm still back a few articles but I had a question about one I read concerning young people and blood clots and a second question concerning feet.

In the article it was noted that doctors were seeing blood clots form in some young people with Covid and explained that the clots were responsible for some of the deaths in the young even when it appeared that they were getting over the virus.

My question after listening to another interview with a doctor on Chicago radio say again the clots were in young people, not older 50+ aged people.  So could some of the difference be explained by lots of 50+ people with pre-existing conditions being already on blood thinners like warfarin (sp?)? 

Secondly there is a story I saw on Facebook saying some people have a symptom called Corona toes before getting sick.  Several pictures of gnarly icky red toes were included. Why would a virus turn people's toes sore and bright red or is this just another Facebook nonsense story? 

Any help is appreciated!
Lp

[Ready2Transform]

I'm sorry, I'm still back a few articles but I had a question about one I read concerning young people and blood clots and a second question concerning feet.

In the article it was noted that doctors were seeing blood clots form in some young people with Covid and explained that the clots were responsible for some of the deaths in the young even when it appeared that they were getting over the virus.

My question after listening to another interview with a doctor on Chicago radio say again the clots were in young people, not older 50+ aged people.  So could some of the difference be explained by lots of 50+ people with pre-existing conditions being already on blood thinners like warfarin (sp?)? 

Secondly there is a story I saw on Facebook saying some people have a symptom called Corona toes before getting sick.  Several pictures of gnarly icky red toes were included. Why would a virus turn people's toes sore and bright red or is this just another Facebook nonsense story? 

Any help is appreciated!
Lp

A friend of mine's granddaughter had the "corona toes" - it's a real thing, but she didn't realize it was related to the very serious flu-like symptoms she had taken her to the ER for until stories like this started running on news and online: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2020/04/21/coronavirus-covid-toes-may-symptom-covid-19-young-people/2994930001/ She'd tested negative for influenza, but this was just before the stay at home orders and all we've come to know about the virus came to light. She'd quarantined her at home, like you would any other flu, and the rest of the family had only had (so far) minor symptoms. Scary!

[Treasur]

An interesting interview with a virus expert, Ian Lipkin, who has personal as well as professional experience of Covid-19 https://www.microbe.tv/twiv/twiv-special-lipkin/. He was the expert advisor on the Soderbergh Film, Contagion, which tbh is a bit spooky to watch again in these times. Including some of the different ways that societies and individuals react. His take is a pretty blunt one tbh....that the coronavirus is here to stay for a while yet, that we are still learning about it and that we will all need to learn to live with it until there is either a proven vaccine or a robust set of treatment options that reduces its effect.

[marvin4242]

On the blood clots: first these seem to be in a small subset of cases, they are NOT a primary and common symptom. I only point this out to make sure there is no panic. It is being looked at for the cases where the deaths are not from the pneumonia/lung issues. As for Covid toes in infants it is mainly seen in asymptomatic cases. Kids under 14 really are not in the risk group. You may see reports of some exceptions but main advice is keep these reports in perspective. They make headlines, but risk is always measured in numbers. There is a risk in crossing the street and its real, but we do not hesitate to cross streets. Without a context these reports become much scarier than they should be.

As for the clotting, it is too early to tell. If it is a side effect of an overreaction by immune system then ironically people with weaker immune systems (including the elderly and the immune suppressed) may suffer much less from the complications of an overactive immune system than healthy young people whose immune system is too active.

There are multiple axis of events here, I think its easier if they are kept separate in our minds. And again for context even now from the numbers of asymptomatic cases the risk degree is still very low for healthy, young part of the population, so panic is not needed. Caution, listening to experts, shielding the vulnerable and making sure we don’t overload our health care is still the main challenge here.

[lawprofessor]

Thank you all for your explanations! 

As always, the more I learn, the more I must accept how much I don't know.

By the way, I'm not a foot person so those pictures were creepy icky!

To the economic side:  Illinois's governor extend the stay at home order until the end of May, but increased the number of businesses that could be open like greenhouses.  He also made masks mandatory.  Sadly on his list of essential businesses he failed to include beauty salons. For some this may not be a big deal but a couple days ago I spent 30 minutes getting my cell phone untangled from my hair.  (I'm a curly)  J suggested I get a poodle shave from the dog groomer now that she is open again.  My mother suggested a good dose of Aqua Net but then noted I'd need to avoid all birds and insects.  On the positive side, I am now 4" taller including hair so I look thinner!

Have a good day you all!
Lp

[marvin4242]

LP: The whole hair situation is becoming critical for a lot of people who simply don't shave their head. But obviously there has been a solution for a long time (since the early 80's I think) and this companies stock must be going through the roof. Here it is, the FlowBee!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oK7_VSpTyVY

[lawprofessor]

Oh my!  How did I miss that??!

I think I'd need some arm extensions though as my hair is now past the middle of my back.  I look like a refugee from the hair bands of the 1980's.  Perhaps some of you are too young to remember those?  On the positive note, someone told me I'm retro...I'm going to assume that is a good thing.

Lp

[xyzcf]

Colorado is one of the states that is allowing hair salons, tattoo parlors and nail salons to open as of May 1. I did have an apt booked for May 8 but the more I thought about it, regardless of what some lifting of restrictions are, it just doesn't seem safe. My concern is for these individuals who are very much impacted economically but I can live with grey roots for a while. The numbers of cases continue to be high here although there has been a flattening.

I laughed when I watched the FlowBee clip.....thanks Marvin.

I find that these new symptoms that are being reported on, make me aware that this is a new virus and we do not know all about it's character. There is much to learn. The assumption is that once you get COVID, you are immune to getting it again or passing it on to others but although that is quite common for many viruses, the scientists are not able to say for sure that this is true for COVID.

More reasons to continue to stay home.

The loosening of restrictions and the length of time that this has been impacting us makes it hard for people to continue to remain isolated. Numbers that suggest a lower mortality (which would be awesome) or that the virus has been circulating longer than we thought or that a percentage of the population have antibodies even though they may not have been aware of having been sick might give us a sense that this virus is not a big deal.

So all the "bits" of information that are being generated need to be considered in a way as several "theories". With time (we all understand that word) more will be understood and we may be able to find other ways to deal with it until a vaccine is available.

I do think I'll skip the injecting of disinfectants to kill off the virus in the body though.

[readytofixmyselffirst]

Hello,

Hope all is well with everyone.

I look like a refugee from the hair bands

Nothing wrong with that. Great bands and great music!

The whole hair situation is becoming critical for a lot of people who simply don't shave their head.

I've been shaving my head clean for a decade now so that's not an issue for me. No discussion about my back!

But the most alarming post is from XYZCF,

Colorado is one of the states that is allowing hair salons, tattoo parlors and nail salons to open as of May 1. I did have an apt booked for May 8 but the more I thought about it, regardless of what some lifting of restrictions are, it just doesn't seem safe.

You were the last person on this site that I thought would make an appointment to get a tattoo.

The world is definitely changing!

((((Ready))))

[xyzcf]

 

There's a lot you don't know about me Ready!

[lawprofessor]

   

[Acorn]

You are never alone, though isolated, when you sing or walk for others
I dare you not to cry when you watch the video in the link:

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2020/apr/24/captain-tom-moore-becomes-oldest-artist-to-claim-uk-no-1-single

[Ggg4life]

LP,XYZ,Ready,Marvin-

Thanks for bringing a big smile to my face from the way back machine.  Big hair, hair bands, hairspray, rock ballads and the like.  That was so me!! Lol . My ex used to say how are you a self professing Christian and still can jam around the house to Aerosmith?  Easy...watch me..lol.  I didn't say I didn't change my lifestyle, but I still love the music especially on those days I just am futzing around the house.  I am human and not hurting anyone.  My daughter would roll her eyes.  Her boyfriend would say " Your mom's play list is so cool!"  I'd have it jamming in the kitchen while fixing food for them.  At least they haven't walked in seeing me spinning my hair around like that girl dancing with the mop in her kitchen in the 80's ( can't think of that cute movie) or jamming with the flow bee while flipping my head up and down for the stylish groom.   . Fun times for sure.

One day not too long ago my daughter came home singing some of those...saying yikes.. What am I doing mom?  I've been around you too long.  . Nope!  Just letting loose and having some easy simple fun.  May you all have a fun weekend pulling out parts of your old songs and connecting with old friends!  We'll get through this madness together.  Here's to you all!  Back to painting. Cheers! GGG

[Thunder]

What a great post, GGG.  Your family sounds lovely.
Funny how kids pretend to be embarrassed by their parents, but inside their pretty proud you're not old fuddy duddy's.

Now I want to dig out my mop and put on some 80's rock band music. LOL

Cheers to you!   

[Ggg4life]

  Lol  Thunder-

If anyone knows what the name of that movie is, I would love to know.  She's a teen flipping her hair around and around with a mop in the kitchen.    I just heard a song in my list that reminds me of all of us LBS'rs.  It's from Ed Sheeran called Save Myself.  So true.  I'm sure it can be found on You Tube or something.  We must save ourselves first.  Have a great day!!

[Nas]

Lol  Thunder-

If anyone knows what the name of that movie is, I would love to know.  She's a teen flipping her hair around and around with a mop in the kitchen.    I just heard a song in my list that reminds me of all of us LBS'rs.  It's from Ed Sheeran called Save Myself.  So true.  I'm sure it can be found on You Tube or something.  We must save ourselves first.  Have a great day!!

I think you are thinking of that scene from “honey, I shrunk the kids”?

[Ggg4life]

Yes!!! Thanks Nas 

[xyzcf]

This is lengthy and I have not had a chance to watch it yet BUT, everything I have read by Dr. Abdu Sharkawy has been fabulous.
From Abdu Sharkawy, the fabulous doctor from Canada..I haven't looked at this..it’s over 2 hours but I do like his message
"I was honored to be part of an international panel of experts discussing current approaches and research initiatives for management of Covid-19. Feel free to share. #CovEducation
Stay informed. Stay healthy. Stay hopeful. Stay Safe"

Access at #CovEducation

[marvin4242]

Is the link missing?

[xyzcf]

Sorry, I thought you could get there from #CovEducation

Try this:

https://www.facebook.com/nigilharoon/videos/10159645914109167/

[marvin4242]

Thanks sorry don’t really use social media. It’s the privacy/tracking issues and so much misinformation (not this but other posts). I guess I sound like a bit of a tech antagonist which is funny considering I’m a tech person!

[xyzcf]

Yes I don't know how else to get to it..I just listened to the first part...from Kerala India and goggled the following article about how successful they have been:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/apr/21/kerala-indian-state-flattened-coronavirus-curve

I suspect that you may somehow be able the whole video somewhere else...I will "report" back on any findings.

The above article makes it very clear that Kerala's success is due to
- a strong public health system
-clear communication
-community participation

It's a good read.

[marvin4242]

Thanks xyzcf. Here is an interesting article about what they call “controlled avalanche” approach to achieve herd immunity while minimizing deaths and not overwhelming health care systems. It relies on assumptions that there are a significant number of asymptomatic people and that risk rates are low enough in 50 and under. Essentially you release the virus in non vulnerable population in small waves like how you would do smaller controlled avalanches to prevent a large one later. The risk is there are a lot of estimates that yet have to be backed up with more data.

https://www.latimes.com/science/story/2020-04-25/could-a-controlled-avalanche-stop-the-coronavirus-faster-and-with-fewer-death

[forthetrees]

This article, while based in the UK, explains why hoping for herd immunity won´t help.

https://multiple-sclerosis-research.org/2020/04/covid19-wow/

[Nerissa]

This article, while based in the UK, explains why hoping for herd immunity won´t help.

https://multiple-sclerosis-research.org/2020/04/covid19-wow/

Thank you for this.  It makes bleak reading.  I’m sorry that as an MS sufferer, your life is so curtailed.  It must be a dreadful time for you and I really hope the results of  vaccine trials are successful and that you are able to keep yourself shielded until then

[marvin4242]

This article, while based in the UK, explains why hoping for herd immunity won´t help.

https://multiple-sclerosis-research.org/2020/04/covid19-wow/

I have read the blog entry a few times now. I am missing it. First it seems to be an opinion not really backed by any theory. Second it points to a paper about rapid spread in a facility and asymptomatic transmission. That doesn’t impact herd immunity, rather how we need very good testing and isolation to shield at risk groups. That we can’t use symptom based screening.

Herd immunity in general population is different. It will eventually cause the virus to die out. For at risk population isolation, vaccine and an effective treatment is required.

[forthetrees]

Marvin, what he is saying is that the percentage needed to reach herd immunity is so high that the casualty count in reaching that percentage would be very high. It´s not realistic to expect vulnerable populations to shelter in place for 12-18 months.

I saw a protester photo the other day with the person holding a sign that said, "Sacrifice the Weak, Open the Economy." In what society is that sentiment ok?

The other piece of news is the WHO warning that antibodies are not proof of being protected from a second infection.

The weird irony is that for some people with MS, some of the immune suppressant drugs might actually be of help if the virus is contracted as it may prevent the cytokine storm. It´s just that it seems like Russian roulette at this point.

It looks like we´ll have two very interesting "clinical trials" with the Georgia vs. Hawaii approach to lockdowns. It´s a given that Georgia is going to reap a tragic trajectory that will have been avoidable. We have failed our populace in that most people do not understand the concepts of exponential growth, antibodies, aerosol, viral loads, and the need to have a mask cover your mouth AND nose. At what point will first responders give up and refuse to risk their lives and their childrens´lives to care for idiots who refuse to take the minimal steps to help avoid the spread?

[marvin4242]

FTT: that’s what I read too, and to be clear I completely agree with you. It is very difficult or impossible to ask the at risk population to shelter in place for that long. And no there is no society I am aware of with morals that values human life where we sacrifice some in the society in order to protect finances of others, specially when the society has the wealth to support everyone’s financial survival while we figure out how to solve the problem. Well no modern democratic or enlightened ones anyway.

And WHO clarified its guidance, as it was a scientific statement of confirmation reported but it was interpreted incorrectly by news and some people. There is a widespread belief that the immunity for Covid-19 is same as most other similar viruses. But there is no proof because there has been no large scale studies. So scientific bodies are clarifying that. Its an important distinction but it doesn’t mean that we can’t count on herd immunity.

I personally believe in order to protect the vulnerable we will have to get to herd immunity, by vaccine and by exposure. But it all starts with large scale testing, and sadly US has no centrally coordinated and wartime level effort unlike other countries. And without testing we can’t know what is going on and a reliable way to protect nursing homes and at risk people from exposure.

[terra]

Good morning folks, I live in one of the first counties to quarantine here in the US. We’ve been sheltering in place since before the state order to do so. Partly because locally we had an unusually vicious flu season in 2019, in which I contracted something that laid me out for two full months, to the point of hallucinating. Recently our area is recognized as having had COVID cases earlier than previously known or reported.

On the virus impact to the brain, I have an email in to one of our local neurosurgeons. I’ll let you know here if we hear back from him. For sure, all of this is startling, but definitely bear in mind how our media and other consumption taxes or nurtures our nervous systems. It’s a wonder to me that I am still living after BD and what followed, but — and maybe you can relate — I feel the skills learned along the way since have positioned me and in all likelihood *many* of us to weather this latest and global storm.

I hope that you are all healthy and well, everywhere that you are reading from, and that you also are staying home a lot, or if not, that you are getting the rest and support and nurturing that you need. I do worry that these past few years of crisis living and recovery may mean that each of us is in at-risk category. So please, stay healthy. Keep your loves and your good inputs and your pleasant moments always foremost.

I’m so glad and relieved to see your voices and input here.

Lp, on hair — last week D had had enough of her hair, glossy black and straight and strong, and long enough for her to almost sit on it. She came out of her room one morning after sleeping on it one more night and said “Do it.” We banded her clean tresses into several beautiful locks and now 11” of healthy hair will be sent off to a charity that will make them into hairpieces for children with medical hair loss.

Her hair is still 16” long and now falls to the middle of her back, rather than to whatever she is sitting on. I hope you are able to capture the style and length that you love best, and please, that you will be safe and well protected as you do!

[Finding Joy]

Terra, something similar went around here(Florida) and my whole family got it.  In Dec/January.  Many here believe it was covid including myself.  We want antibody testing.

For the trees-I know someone with MS and this is incredibly scary for her.  It’s not ideal for those with health issues to have to shelter in place for 12-18 months.  Hopefully it won’t come to that.  Of course it also makes no sense for the entire population to shelter in place for 12-18 months, so hard choices will have to be made and I also believe herd immunity is our best hope.  Through various means.

Personally I believe testing in the US will show this is very widespread bringing the death rate per infected way down.  Hopefully anyways.  This has been many of our guess all along, but of course more testing needs done to confirm or deny the hunch.

[Nerissa]

Here’s an interview with Germany’s COVID expert.  Germany is considered to have had an exemplary approach to the pandemic, given that so much is unknown.

He appears to think that herd immunity will not easily be achieved and that in Germany, the percentage  so far testing positive for antibodies is still in single figures. 

It’s going to be a trying and worrisome year I think. Hope everyone is coping.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/26/virologist-christian-drosten-germany-coronavirus-expert-interview

[marvin4242]

A new “study of studies” again shows that infants and young kids are not at risk from the Covid-19 virus. The review looked at studies and data from multiple countries and shows almost no morbidity directly related to the virus. There are very small numbers reported but they are all “suspected” cases in that other factors were not ruled out. As reported before majority of kids of asymptomatic and its not clear that they are a vector of transmission. The only interesting “news” I personally saw is that the virus shows up in kids fecal matter for weeks after which may be a vector of transmission. Infants and kids showed very little inflammation and any of the effects of an overactive immune system, and very few showed any effect on the lungs.

If the other data showing how an infected child didn’t pass on the Covid to his siblings but did pass on other flu strains from the same trip holds up it would explain widespread school opening push in some countries.

https://dontforgetthebubbles.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/COVID-data-top-10.pdf?mod=article_inline

Summary:

COVID-19 appears to affect children less often, and with less severity, including frequent asymptomatic or subclinical infection. There is evi- dence of critical illness, but it is rare. The role of children in transmission is unclear, but it seems likely they do not play a significant role. Changes in laboratory or radiographic parameters are slightly different to adults, and changes usually mild. There is no direct evidence of vertical trans- mission, and early evidence suggests both infected mothers and infants are no more severely affected than other groups. Early evidence sug- gests no significant increased risk for children with immunosuppression, but further data is needed

[marvin4242]

Another interesting read, not a lot of depth but a good overview and context about this pandemic. We are in the middle of it in some ways, so sometimes its hard to clearly see the way out. But as we know from before it will pass, and in some ways we are more able to find a solution to this than at any other time in history due to medical and scientific advances.

How The COVID-19 Pandemic Could End
Recent epidemics provide clues to ways the current crisis could stop

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-the-covid-19-pandemic-could-end/?utm_source=digg

[Nerissa]

This article was shared by Nigella Lawson. She felt it clear and calming.  It’s comprehensive and explains why so much confusion.

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/04/pandemic-confusing-uncertainty/610819/

[marvin4242]

Thanks Nerissa very good article (imho) that covers a lot of the misunderstood aspects. Specially as I watch the administration now essentially falsely claim how great they are doing and how great things are going. I am sure they will use the worst case numbers to show how “well” it has gone in the US rather than how badly.

On a more positive front I am sure all of you have already seen the first larger double blind trials of Gileads antiviral medication has gone well. It seems to show a 30% across the board improvement in both duration of disease and decrease in mortality. And a second study showed that a 5 day treatment had the same impact as 10 (decreasing the dosage or doubling availability of the drug by 2). This is not a magic bullet nor a cure, but it is a very good foothold treatment. Decreasing duration and mortality means it should reduce load on hospitals and death rates. Only confusion out there is the Lancet paper that showed from an earlier study in China of the same drug that it did not show such effect, but that study was terminated due to lack of patients, so it is more inclusive.

So this may be a very good anchor treatment. Hopefully in combination with another similarly effective treatment we can make a big dent in the mortality and risk factor.

[marvin4242]

Link to good article for above:

https://www.latimes.com/science/story/2020-04-29/remdesivir-clinical-trial-may-be-turning-point-in-coronavirus-fight

[xyzcf]

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/coronavirus-vaccine-september-oxford-university/

I found this news promising because researchers had been working on vaccines for corona viruses for years....and could be able to use what they already know to make something that will specifically work with COVID.

In my home state, I watch the number of deaths per day and they are down from 36 or so to 2 per day....to me that is a very good indication as well that the measures we are taking are working.

I was dismayed however at people stockpiling famotadine. It is totally sold out and I take it for stomach issues. I tried stopping it last fall and was quite sick so my GI specialist told me I should take it for the rest of my life. It is the only GERD med that I can tolerate but I do have some stock ahead.

Today, I am going golfing! Yes, the courses have ,made several rules, pay online, putting a foam piece in the cup so your ball just needs to hit that and it is considered in and maintaining social distancing which out on the course is really easy to do.

I am working in my yard and cleaning it up...I can order stuff from the garden center as of today for curbside pickup. There are some inventive things happening.

Many people I talk to who are able to work at home are saying they prefer working at home and would actually like to continue to do so once the danger of the virus is over.

I am concerned that things will open up too quickly..but things are being monitored and hopefully any patterns of reemergence will be identified quickly. 

Have a safe and good day all.

[marvin4242]

And here are two initiatives people may not be as aware of:

"Announcing the COVID-19 Therapeutics Accelerator"

https://www.gatesfoundation.org/TheOptimist/Articles/coronavirus-mark-suzman-therapeutics

And

"Bill Gates is funding new factories for potential coronavirus vaccines"
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/04/bill-gates-7-potential-coronavirus-vaccines

Picking up the slack where our federal government isn't.

[Nerissa]

I am working in my yard and cleaning it up...I can order stuff from the garden center as of today for curbside pickup. There are some inventive things happening.

Nice to read that you are  regaining a little normality.  Fingers crossed the infection rates keep decreasing.

[xyzcf]

A positive message

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fp6UZ_I4zj0&feature=youtu.be

[Treasur]

In a strange link between the virus and infidelity, Neil Ferguson (the guy behind the Imperial model that has had such an impact in many countries) has resigned from being a government adviser. Why? Bc he was busted breaking lockdown restrictions by having his married AP come over for fun and frolics  His defence initially? He'd had the virus so believed he was immune....although he was wfh bc of it......no concern about the integrity of practicing what he preached or any risk to his AP, her h or her kids when the jury is still out on immunity  and this is at a time when the UK now has the dubious honour of the largest number of deaths in Europe.....

There is something inherently selfish and rather delusional about infidelity isn't there? And at a time when so many people are suffering here, both from the affects of lockdown and from covid19, it just makes you feel yuk about folks who are so self-centred. What a foolish man. Not perhaps quite the professional legacy he had in mind.

[Milly]

Sad story, Treasur. If it weren't for the virus, we would not even learn about these entitled people. There was the medical advisor in Scotland too, wasn't there? She wasn't unfaithful, but after telling everyone on TV to stay at home, she attempted to reach her holiday home twice. So arrogant.

And as for Neil Ferguson, no sympathy for him from anyone, except maybe some MLCers who will find it funny and feel sorry for him. Just goes to show that there's a good chance that our MLCers carried on their usual Replay madness during this world crisis with their thoughts directed only at themselves. If any of us wondered if the Coronavirus might wake our MLCers up, this would be proof that it won't. They don't care about others. I suspect they only wake up when the problem affects them personally and deeply. But even then, they might not.

[Nerissa]

Yes although infidelity isn’t necessarily the biggest issue as I understand it since it’s reported that the woman is in an open marriage and he had met her husband.  Prof Ferguson lives separately from his wife.  ( whatever that means - but the implication is that they are no longer together. If this were a secret from his wife I feel we’d have learned more about his marriage)

He has  broken his own advice, saying that because he had had the virus he believed was no longer able to spread it.  As you say, that doesn’t apply to her or her family and may not apply to him either.  So that’s hypocrisy  on his part.

More Interesting imo is that a very right wing paper has sat on the story they found by using detectives for a whole month and released it on the front page in the very day the UK death rate  overtook other European countries.  It has also dubbed him Professor Lockdown and says he insisted on a lockdown that the papers owners want lifted.  I don’t think a mathematical modeller insists on anything.  I think they offer their findings and the politicians then make decisions based on that information.

As an aside, if they have detectives following him that possibly  also happens to other members of the scientific advisors as they try to find negative information to use for political purposes..  It’s not very salubrious.

I mean a cabinet minister broke lockdown to go to his second home and to visit his parents and nothing has happened to him .  And our Prime ministers private life is in a completely different league of immorality  to Prof Ferguson and he is feted by this paper.  They called his mistress his fiancée while he was still Married. 

It’s all really unpleasant and shows a lot of the worst side of human nature.  So depressing when so much of this has brought out the best in so many.

[Treasur]

An interesting article about the effects of these times https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/may/07/patterns-of-pain-covid-19-psychotherapy-susie-orbach-bodies
What struck me most was two points; the easy to dismiss effects of physical isolation and perhaps the beginning of a change in how we see and value 'hands on work' in our societies.

[marvin4242]

Great read. I have also seen other articles about how in US there is a mental health crises wave that will follow and how there is no infrastructure, support nor is mental health care covered in most plans.

I also saw this today which lines up with the “micro clotting” and increased clotting reported. Blood thinner treatment increased survival to 21 days from 14 days in patients not no ventilator, but did not seem to increase survival rates. For patients on ventilators it increased mortality dropped from 63% to 29%. So that is a significant improvement.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/05/07/blood-thinners-coronavirus-clots/

[xyzcf]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tarahaelle/2020/05/08/why-its-important-to-push-back-on-plandemic-and-how-to-do-it/#4bc641275fa3

I don't understand how people can believe the misinformation that is circulating about COVID. This is a good article that explains some of the reasons.

[OffRoad]

It is my opinion that many people do not actually know how to think for themselves.

When my son was born, there was a new vaccine for rotavirus. The nurse said they were going to give him that with the other vaccines. I asked if it was required, as i knew nothing about it and had done no research. She said no, but then tried to bully me into letting her give it to him by implying I was a bad mother if I didn't. I didn't say no to all the vaccines, just that one, and had some restrictions for DTAP due to bad reactions to that from my daughter. I was treated like I was sentencing my son to a lifetime of rotavirus for thinking for myself and considering all factors.

The rotavirus vaccine was pulled  two months later, due to issues with it causing Intussusception. The cure appeared to kill more infants than the disease. Three month later, it was back as "recommended". 2.5 years later (18 years ago), it was pulled again and has never been "recommended" again. The cure did kill more than the disease.

My point being that in my experience, people are told to listen to the "experts" but there is no badge that guarantees that person x is an expert. For all we know, that expert is just regurgitating what THEY were told. Or towing the acceptable line.   Or that even if they are very experienced in a field, there might be someone equally experienced that takes the same facts and can validly come up with a differing theory. Even some conspiracy theories have some truth in them and are worth the research to find what the truth is. Each person needs to think "If X were true, how does that affect what I should do? If Y were true, how would that affect what I should do? How to I determine how valid this is?  How does this fit in with my values and  beliefs? How will it affect other people?" People can make good choices when they are not told to blindly follow some guidlines without understanding the reasons why, if they are given alternatives that make sense for their situation.  Unless they have never been taught how to think for themselves and believe that social media is the same as a research paper. .

Which part is the "misinformation" , after all? The part where according to some websites the world death rate is 16% and the US death rate is 26%, but only because most of the cases have never been closed due to lack of testing for negative results because they weren't sick enough to end up in a hospital?  Do I believe that 1 in 4 people who had Covid 19 in the US have died?  No. I do my own math.JMO

[marvin4242]

OffRoad: your post is EXACTLY what misinformation does when non experts doubt real expertise. If you are truly interested read this:

“Evaluating the safety of a rotavirus vaccine: the REST of the story”

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2602609/

For those of us who have knowledge in a field of study it is rather easy to separate a true expert from fake talking heads on Fox News and other various garbage “information” channels that people listen to. This isn’t up to the opinion of the uninformed. Expertise is well understood and defined by practitioners of a given field. And science doesn’t rely on “expertise” of an individual, it is the expertise of a LARGE group of experts in a field. Most people don’t actually understand how science works, how its not based on any one persons opinion and knowledge.

The truth is vast majority of people are NOT qualified to try to make their own decisions about complex areas of human knowledge. This is not a “popular” thing to say but it is true. We drive cars that are safe because of expertise of others, we eat food and enjoy quality of life because of vast areas of knowledge most people do not possess. But none of this stops us from trusting expertise and knowledge not in our possession.

This kind of vaccine misinformation is exactly what is already started against vaccines that don’t even exist.

“Groups Sow Doubt About COVID Vaccine Before One Even Exists”

https://www.snopes.com/ap/2020/04/29/groups-sow-doubt-about-covid-vaccine-before-one-even-exists/

[xyzcf]

She said no, but then tried to bully me into letting her give it to him by implying I was a bad mother if I didn't. I didn't say no to all the vaccines, just that one, and had some restrictions for DTAP due to bad reactions to that from my daughter. I was treated like I was sentencing my son to a lifetime of rotavirus for thinking for myself and considering all factors.

I am really sorry that this one nurse made you feel that way.

I have worked in infectious diseases and immunization clinics for more than 10 years of my 40 + years of my nursing career and neither I nor any of my colleagues ever spoke to a client that way. Indeed, we received training regarding what to say to someone who had doubts about receiving a vaccine and ALL vaccines given had to be signed for by the legal guardian. Their signature agreeing that they have been told about any risks involved.  As well, every vaccine has a VIS, Vaccine Information Sheet, that is from the CDC with all the side effects listed for the specific vaccine and where to contact if there were any side effects.

Any adverse reactions are also carefully documented and submitted to the CDC.

My question for those who are anti vaccines is:

Why would millions of doctors administer a product to their patients, to their family members and to themselves if they had concerns about the safety of these vaccines? It just doesn't make sense that they would do this.

Yes, occasionally there are side effects from the vaccines. However, the amount of lives saved because of immunization is far far greater than the few side effects that occur.

As marvin stated:

And science doesn’t rely on “expertise” of an individual, it is the expertise of a LARGE group of experts in a field.

and might I add from around the world.

And this:

This kind of vaccine misinformation is exactly what is already started against vaccines that don’t even exist. (re COVID)

You can't win sometimes. Those who feel they must wear military  garb and carry their weapons to protest due to a public health crisis will find a way to infiltrate their lies into society.

There are so many valid sources to obtain data from but unfortunately all these well respected sources that have been around for decades are now under attack as being a "hoax".

[Finding Joy]

Off Road.  Right with you.  There is a greater good attitude with the vaccines, but it adversely effects some.  I research everything before it is put in mine or my kids bodies.  If others want this vaccine that is a choice they have.

I will take a wait and see approach.  Because in a new vaccine they have no clue of long term effects.  But of course we will all be pressured.  I was never one to conform with what others think is best for my family.  Being that we are very low risk, I have no intention of taking a vaccine for this.

[forthetrees]

The vaccine is not only about you and your health status. By getting the vaccine, even if sure that YOU are not at risk of the disease, you are protecting those of US who are at risk. Your flu spread could become my permanent state of neurological damage. Please read more about the purpose of vaccines before you opt out ´cause when you opt out you put at risk the immune compromised who even if they can take a vaccine, do not have a robust antibody production.

[OffRoad]

OffRoad: your post is EXACTLY what misinformation does when non experts doubt real expertise. If you are truly interested read this:

Marvin, this is EXACTLY what I am talking about. You appear to want to believe this article that was published for ncbi. The one that says " It is well understood by clinical trial statisticians that a single study cannot prove absence of risk."  I went with the recommendations of the cdc that pulled the RRV-TV vaccine in 2002 and even after this paper was published, never recommended that vaccine again.  Your choice. My choice. Which experts do you believe? Which do I? Neither group agrees.  Did your child have the rotavirus vaccine? Mine did not because no one agrees so I CHOSE not to take the risk. But I thought for myself, because it is not only my right to choose to read various sources for information and to interpret what I read to get to an informed choice, but it is wise for me to do so. And it is wise for people to not cherry pick one article and wave their hands about saying "See?".  Search for all information, then choose. We can't control anyone else, just ourselves.

There was zero misinformation in my post.

[marvin4242]

I think there is a great deal of misunderstanding and misinformation about what a vaccine really is flying around here. This is where knowledge and expertise is critical. What do most of you think a vaccine is and what do you think it does? Where do you think this “danger” of the vaccine come from? Can you actually point to a mechanism or what you think is “bad” or “dangerous” or is it just an unfounded belief and fear?

If we are going to simply make up our own reality in life we can not make good decisions in our own self interest. If any of you are saying you actually know what a vaccine is and what it does do you mind sharing what you believe is potentially dangerous? Because the most likely side effect of a vaccine is that it has no effect in preventing the disease it is targeting. A vaccine does not stay in your body, it is not an active chemical, it is not medication. It simply presents to your immune system a signature, a fingerprint to target if it sees it again. And modern vaccines are not even made from a “live” sample.

This is why knowledge is power, why expertise matters and lay opinion is not valid in situations like this. Specially when it is almost selfish to put everyone else at risk because someone rejects something from a complete lack of understanding. If it only effects us then it wouldn’t matter if someone decided to be willfully ignorant of facts, but when it impacts other then I have to say its a big problem.

[marvin4242]

Offroad you make assertions that are not backed up by facts. Please point out which real experts disagreed with safety and efficacy. What up I quoted is a statement of procedure, no single study unconfirmed and unexamined can be used on its own. But one with a large enough group is a very good start.

And I am not sure what you point is. That we all get to choose our “experts” to back up our own beliefs?

[MyBrainIsBroken]

This discussion is too interesting to pass up.

I agree with OR's assertion that people shouldn't blindly follow experts but should instead research and then make up their own minds. I also believe Marvin is correct in that most people aren't well suited to do so either by nature or due to lack of proper training. OTOH, I know that OR is more than capable of researching and making her own decisions and I applaud her for doing so.

The article Marvin posted is quite interesting. I believe that it proves OR's point about the virus she declined. The article describes not one but two similar but slightly different vaccines for rotovirus, the RRV-TV that OR declined and a second vaccine, PRV, that was being developed at the time RRV-TV was removed from use.

Some relevant sections of the article.

However, postmarketing surveillance studies detected a temporal association between RRV-TV and intestinal intussusception, the telescoping or prolapse of one portion of the bowel into an immediately adjacent segment. Intussusception is an uncommon illness with a background incidence of 18–56 cases per 100 000 infant years during the first year of life in the US [4]. The population attributable risk detected in the postmarketing studies for RRV-TV was approximately 1 additional case per 10 000 vaccine recipients [5–8]. No association between RRV-TV and intussusception was observed in clinical studies conducted prelicensure [9].

This section states that no problems related to intussusception were found during development of the RRV-TV but after it was released they found the prevalence of intussusception in those receiving the vaccination was approximately 1 additional case per 10000 recipients as opposed to those who didn't receive the vaccination. 1 in 10000 doesn't sound like a lot but it was enough to justify discontinuing the vaccine and it is enough to justify OR's decision to pass on the vaccine.

A decision was made to continue the PRV program because of the importance of a safe and effective rotavirus vaccine to public health [15–17]. The absence of an apparent association between wild-type human rotavirus disease and intussusception indicated that intussusception would not necessarily be associated with all rotavirus vaccines [9,18]. Furthermore, preclinical data suggested that there might be some biological differences between PRV and RRV-TV [19, Merck unpublished data]. However, evaluation of the safety of the vaccine with respect to intussusception became a critical question in the clinical development plan, and a large-scale prelicensure safety study was deemed necessary.

This section states that the developers of the PRV were concerned about the issues with the RRV-TV but decided to continue development of the PRV because they felt a rotovirus vaccine was still needed and that they believed there might be enough difference between the RRV-TV and the PRV for the PRV to work without causing an increased risk of intussusception but they decided to do a much more thorough pre-release safety study.

Based on the previous experience with RRV-TV, we designed a study of PRV in which the age and timing at which intussusception occurred with RRV-TV was covered. Had the prelicensure studies of RRV-TV been conducted using a similar design, it is likely (≥85%) the studies of RRV-TV would have been stopped due to a safety concern, based on the safety boundaries, as was shown by the simulation results.

This section from the Conclusions is the scary part. This section basically states that the RRV-TV probably wouldn't have been released if the pre-release studies had been more thorough. A lot of Covid-19 vaccines are currently being rapidly developed. It's possible that we could end up reading a similar statement in a similar study in a few years about a Covid-19 vaccine that was quickly developed and released and later found to introduce an unacceptable risk of causing harm.

I believe I understand what a vaccine is and what it does and I know that there is a small amount of risk associated with receiving a vaccine. If the vaccine is properly tested the risk is reduced to an acceptable level so that the benefits of the vaccine outweigh the risks for both the individual and the community but it is still possible that some people who receive the vaccine may be harmed. The antigens that trigger the immune response and the adjuvents that improve the immune system's response to the antigens aren't the only components found in a vaccine. There are other ingredients that are part of the delivery system and some people have sensitivites or alllergies to some of these components.

None of this should be interpreted as meaning that I am against vaccines. I believe we are fortunate to have them and I have received more than my share. When I was in the Air Force I received enough vaccinations to fill a couple of pages in my immunization record book. I received a full series of rabies shots after a close encounter with a bat and as a healthcare worker I had to have a series of shots for Hepatitis B. I also usually get a yearly influenza vaccine but I normally wait until they've been administering them for a month or two in case there are any unexpected reactions since the vaccine is updated every year. Once a vaccine for Covid-19 is released I will do my research and then I will decide if and when I get the vaccination.

My graduate degree is in Information Science. I was trained to critically evaluate information sources, including experts. I believe all high school and college students should be trained to evaluate the information they are accessing and I wrote and taught an information research and evaluation course for college students that was pretty popular.

If you've managed to read this far, Mr. SmartyPants and I thank you for your time and interest.

[Treasur]

For anyone thinking about making home made face masks who can sew.....https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9sfsRitOUA0
This lady has years of experience as a high-end seamstress plus has researched the latest available advice on fabric types and percentage efficiencies of droplet transmission plus breathability and efficiency of use as well as being able to wash and reuse them. I suspect that home made 'funky' masks may become a new fashion item.....

[Ggg4life]

Hi Gang-

I did want to thank you all for keeping us update on what your finding.  My head can barely wrap around the news with so many twists and turns.  I appreciate all sides of your findings. I rather know now in hopes we aren't locked down again by fall. It seems probable at this time.  If we are, your discussions are educating me. Much appreciated.   . GGG

[marvin4242]

MBIB: thanks for the breakdown and views. The only thing I would like to add from my side:

Even in rapid development there are methods of studying to try to catch most side-effects. Only thing we can’t “speed up” is effect over time. If the scale of study is large enough with a wide enough spread of population it can find the rare side effects by sheer size and diversity.

Which brings up this interesting second point which is usually how misinformation spreads. The human mind is not very good at putting fear or information in perspective. What I mean is that if we are told “there is a 1 in 4 chance that xyz will happen” we can experientially have a good grasp of the risk, assess it and make a decision. I would even argue if I said “there is a 1 in 100 chance” some people will be able to have some capability of risk/reward measurement. After that we enter what I call the “lottery” trick. We simply fail at contextualizing, and this is why so many people buy a lottery ticket. If the odd is 1 in 100,000 we think we can buy 100 tickets and “have a near sure thing.” Well this is simply not true.

To be explicit a lot of people with agenda or from fear purposefully use this inability to try to create fear, and this applies to vaccines. Vaccines have not had reagents that have been dangerous for a very long time now. But this old event is still brought up as how “well then of course it can still be true.” Most people can’t get over that lie. Reagents and adjuvants in modern vaccines are not dangerous. If they are I would like to see someone point out exactly to which ones and what happens.

This brings up the next tool in the arsenal of disinformation: vagueness. “X is dangerous” without any data, facts or detailed explanation. It is the equivalent of saying: never fly in a plane, a plane crashed in the Andes because it was designed wrong and you will all die. There is no discussion of how that was an exception, that what was learned from the crash analysis was then applied to all modern planes and that event never happened again. We don’t notice the non-event but will over register the big event. No one goes around thinking about the millions of flights without events that occur constantly, but one bad landing will get everyone attention. Or they don’t think of the millions of people who lost their ticket money on the lottery but remember the one person who won. Again we are bad at contextualizing.

Finally the benefit of vaccines far far far outweighs any potential side effects. If you look at the statistics of the potentially dangerous side effects in any vaccines it is minuscule. Compare those rates to the chance of being killed crossing the street, or getting skin cancer from being outdoors, or the risk of lung cancer from being in a city, or heart attack from eating red meat. Then you will see that all the people who keep pointing to the how dangerous vaccines are and are convinced of it still engage daily in activities that are orders of magnitude (to be clear thousands if not tens of thousands of times) more dangerous every day without a second thought. But will absolutely be certain they are making “expert” and informed choices.

[Nerissa]

as An anecdotal aside, I know, or know of  five people acting as guinea pigs in the current vaccine trials.  All are fine.  I understand if things look good the usual long term testing may be truncated in order to get it distributed.  Not sure of the protocol being adopted  although someone did explain it briefly.

I’lll have no qualms at all about receiving it if it becomes available.  It will be immeasurably safer than taking the risk of receiving a high viral load on the train or in a restaurant. Maybe I’d have volunteered to be one except I’m  too old ☹️ - had to be under 55.
 Many people must have felt similarly because the trial filled up with adequate numbers of healthy volunteers in days.

[marvin4242]

A quick summary/write up of what we know so far about how children are effected differently and may not be in as much risk in contradiction to the usual U shape curve where very young and old are at high risk for those of you that are interested. Which again is probably behind why some countries are planning on opening schools for younger kids sooner.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/13/are-children-less-susceptible-to-coronavirus

[marvin4242]

And on a cautionary opinion piece about lack of trust in expertise, confusion about opinion vs knowledge, and how misinformation has now become one of the biggest dangers in US here is a chilling article:

Get Ready for a Vaccine Information War
Social media is already filling up with misinformation about a Covid-19 vaccine, months or years before one even exists.

Opening of piece:

"The other night, midway through watching a clip from “Plandemic” — a documentary that went viral on social media last week, spreading baseless lies and debunked nonsense about the coronavirus to millions of Americans overnight — I had a terrifying thought:

What if we get a Covid-19 vaccine and half the country refuses to take it?

It occurred to me that all the misinformation we’ve seen so far — the false rumors that 5G cellphone towers fuel the coronavirus, that drinking bleach or injecting UV rays can cure it, that Dr. Anthony Fauci is part of an anti-Trump conspiracy — may be just the warm-up act for a much bigger information war when an effective vaccine becomes available to the public. This war could pit public health officials and politicians against an anti-vaccination movement that floods social media with misinformation, conspiracy theories and propaganda aimed at convincing people that the vaccine is a menace rather than a lifesaving, economy-rescuing miracle.
Scariest of all? It could actually work."

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/13/technology/coronavirus-vaccine-disinformation.html?action=click&module=Spotlight&pgtype=Homepage

[forthetrees]

If humans are going to act that way then it needs to be a vaccine that leaves a physical mark. Without the mark you cannot enter restaurants, concert venues etc. UNLESS you are unable to take the vaccine due a medical (not spiritual belief) condition.

[xyzcf]

Vaccinations do not always protect you 100% but the more people who receive a vaccine, the better the chances are that most people will be protected. When the majority of the population gets vaccinated, it protects those who are immunocompromised and therfor they cannot receive the vaccine.

Every time I hear of a healthy child dying of the influenza, it seems (and I have not verified this) that they were not vaccinated. Parents mistakenly think that they can get through influenza and they don't need a shot against it.

A good friend of mine's son, a 19 year old healthy college student died of meningococcal meningitis. He had been to the doctor's office and  been offered the vaccine but it was going to cost over $100.00 so he declined it. He didn't tell his mom...she is in agony over if he had told her, she would have gladly paid the bill.

These conspiracy theories are incredibly dangerous and I would think that people would be more educated regarding issues rather than getting their "facts" from some obscure publication that wishes to create fear and havoc for people who are already scared about the virus and what is has and will continue to do until a vaccine is made and distributed to a large number of people.

[UrsaMajor]

I did not intend to post on this thread  but.... SInce "Plandemic" came out.... The artist DID forget to add "with nanoparticle RFID chips" in the part about shooting vaccines.... 

[Nerissa]

  ;

That’s funny.  But I keep getting conspiracy theory videos on my fb messenger from an elderly, far right, creationist I know in the US.  They are really quite  disturbing.

[marvin4242]

Another interesting new preliminary result showing that convalescent plasma transfusions are safe to use as potential treatment. This is the transfer of plasma from people who have recovered to people who are ill with Covid-19 as a treatment. This was not an efficacy study, rather safety. But showing it is safe they can now move to the efficacy studies. It was a relatively large study with 5000 patients.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.12.20099879v1?mod=article_inline

Another potential treatment. There have been other news about a few combinations of anti-virals all showing some degree of aid in reducing duration and severity, so progress is being made. None of the combinations that are showing promise include hydroxychloroquine or variants. Science and methodical study and expertise will win over “instinct” anyday.

[marvin4242]

More results coming out showing hydroxychloroquine  is not an effective treatment, but this is no surprise at this point. A few other combinations are showing promise.

Further evidence does not support hydroxychloroquine for patients with COVID-19

https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2020-05/b-fed051420.php

[xyzcf]

From Dr Abdu Sharkway  an Internal Medicine and Infectious Diseases consultant and Assistant Professor of Medicine at the University of Toronto.

"Would you throw a frisbee at someone from less than 6 feet away? Probably not. Not unless you had a serious mean streak or the motor skills of a 3 year old I would guess. What if everyone wanted to play with a frisbee in each hand... and started throwing them in every direction - at the same time? Well, our ERs would fill up pretty quickly with a lot of forehead lacerations and serious eye injuries.

That's nothing compared to the frisbee that is COVid-19. It may be in your hands. Right now. Or someone else's. Especially if you are in a park or a sunny lake side boulevard: Be smart. Be responsible. Be considerate. Protect yourself and others."

#TooClose4Comfort #PatienceWins #CoVidFrisbeeChallenge

[xyzcf]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/1918-pandemic-flu-coronavirus-1.5566524?__vfz=medium%3Dsharebar&fbclid=IwAR0SfI4s0gCpHEmdDw-JEKpde8tUeburk0U4Uc-EKFxsQpsbCX4Pwp52_ZQ

Public health measures work.

[marvin4242]

Thanks xyzcf for the article. Today there was this from the chief scientist at WHO which seems to keep with the data seen before about children, Covid and schools. From The Guardian blurb below. It will be interesting to see the actual data.

“Data on reopening schools reassuring, says WHO scientist

Dr Soumya Swaminathan, chief scientist at the World Health Organisation (WHO), spoke to the BBC’s Andrew Marr show earlier. The PA news agency has her comments.

Asked about the reopening of schools, and evidence from countries that have done so, Dr Swaminathan said:

Overall, the data has been very reassuring, though of course it’s only a few countries that have done that. The guidance that has been put out by WHO clearly lays out the criteria you would use when you consider whether to reopen a school or not...

It’s really important that all the stakeholders, that is the teachers, the children themselves and the parents or caregivers, have had a chance to have a dialogue and ask questions, and be informed of what is being done to minimise the risks and what they need to do.

Dr Swaminathan said evidence from countries where schools have remained open suggests this has not led to large outbreaks of Covid-19.

What we have seen in countries where schools have remained open is that there have not been big outbreaks in schools, and where there have been it’s been associated with events - where a lot of people gather, not in regular classrooms, and it’s often been associated with an adult whose had the infection and has spread it.“

[marvin4242]

I just read that a study in Hong Kong showed that use of surgical masks reduced spread of Covid by 60%...in hamsters. I was impressed they could get the hamsters to keep those masks on. They must have looked cute!

More seriously they placed the masks in the airflow path between cages. So it is a good indication that use of masks can help reduce the spread from people who are carriers.

[Thunder]

Marvin, now if we could just convince everyone to wear one, huh?

Not sure if anyone posted this yet, about the importance of Vitamin D:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/05/200507121353.htm

[marvin4242]

Thunder: that is a fascinating little study. Not only does it again emphasize that a lot of the damage is done by the Cytokines storm (immune system overreaction) in people who are not already at risk, but also that vitamin D is not only important in good immune system function AND in keeping the immune system from overreacting. So it all ties together.

And the final nugget is the fact that children are not in as much risk exactly because their immune system is not well developed enough to show the over reaction that is the risk factor in younger people.

Thanks for posting that. So much information is one article.

[marvin4242]

Early positive results from one of the first vaccines. No safety issues except redness at site of injection. And this is NOT the same as efficacy but there was similar or higher antibody counts in testers compared to people who had recovered from Covid. And the vaccine protected vaccinated mic. This is encouraging news.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/05/18/coronavirus-vaccine-first-results/

[Treasur]

The UK government rather strangely imho based on the public facts announced that a vaccine being trialled in Oxford will be made available for 30 million doses in September....hmmm....https://www.sciencefocus.com/news/oxford-coronavirus-trials-heres-what-we-know-so-far-about-the-covid-19-vaccine/.....the phrase 'swallow doth not a summer make' comes to mind. Of course, we all want a vaccine and early encouraging signs en route to one is good news, but I do wish some of the public communication was a little more fact-based and a little less 'political' perhaps? Makes it rather difficult to judge what is solid information and what is not.

[MyBrainIsBroken]

Oxford coronavirus trials: here’s what we know so far about the COVID-19 vaccine
https://www.sciencefocus.com/news/oxford-coronavirus-trials-heres-what-we-know-so-far-about-the-covid-19-vaccine/

[marvin4242]

Interesting new revision in guidelines from CDC in the US. Nothing really new but a good restatement of main mode of transmission. Headline has the highlights, links below:

“Virus ‘does not spread easily’ from contaminated surfaces or animals, revised CDC website states”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/05/21/virus-does-not-spread-easily-contaminated-surfaces-or-animals-revised-cdc-website-states/

[Nerissa]

The UK government rather strangely imho based on the public facts announced that a vaccine being trialled in Oxford will be made available for 30 million doses in September....hmmm....https://www.sciencefocus.com/news/oxford-coronavirus-trials-heres-what-we-know-so-far-about-the-covid-19-vaccine/.....the phrase 'swallow doth not a summer make' comes to mind. Of course, we all want a vaccine and early encouraging signs en route to one is good news, but I do wish some of the public communication was a little more fact-based and a little less 'political' perhaps? Makes it rather difficult to judge what is solid information and what is not.

They have today begun recruiting volunteers to trial the vaccine  who are aged over 55 and  under 18.  I had understood  that the vaccine wasn’t showing complete immune protection but mitigated symptoms.  They must believe progress to be sufficient to extend testing.  I suppose more information will come soon.  I’ve submitted an application to volunteer for it but there are a lot of checks and tests  to go through before being accepted.

[marvin4242]

More from the “science beats feelings from the gut” camp of reality.

Antimalarial drug touted by President Trump is linked to increased risk of death in coronavirus patients, study says

Key paragraphs of article

“ A study of 96,000 hospitalized coronavirus patients on six continents found that those who received an antimalarial drug promoted by President Trump as a “game changer” in the fight against the virus had a significantly higher risk of death compared with those who did not.”

And

“It’s one thing not to have benefit, but this shows distinct harm,” said Eric Topol, a cardiologist and director of the Scripps Research Translational Institute. “If there was ever hope for this drug, this is the death of it.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/05/22/hydroxychloroquine-coronavirus-study/?hpid=hp_hp-banner-main_hydroxy-840am%3Ahomepage%2Fstory-ans

[xyzcf]

I had understood  that the vaccine wasn’t showing complete immune protection but mitigated symptoms.

Some vaccines are not 100% protective but often will cause the severity of symptoms to be less than the full blown disease. Pertussis (whooping cough) and influenza come to mind as vaccines that offer some but not complete protection although I think with influenza it is due to the difficulty in determining what strain of the virus will be circulating each year.

Thanks nerissa for volunteering!

Thanks also marvin to keeping us up to date on things!

I am totally unable to comprehend how the leader of the US can suggest that people take hydroxychloroquine when there is no proof that it works and it is dangerous....how terribly unethical!

[xyzcf]

https://www.bbc.com/news/52760992

Very good article that explains the many different organ systems that are affected by this virus and how scientists are still finding out and are baffled by some of the effects of this virus.

The problem that I am seeing, people think this is a simple disease..it is not.

People are fed up with staying inside and so they do not seem to understand the severity of this illness and people think that science should have all the answers by now.....the information has been changing from the time we first heard of COVid and I am sure it will continue to change as more is learned.

[readytofixmyselffirst]

Hello,

I am totally unable to comprehend how the leader of the US can suggest that people take hydroxychloroquine when there is no proof that it works and it is dangerous....how terribly unethical!

It's just a few of the unethical things because when you are dealing with a crisis, we need a united front and a clear message even if that message is we don't know much about the virus and are working hard to understand and fight it. Instead, we have such a disjointed message that it has sparked conspiracy theories and distrust in everyone.

There is a lot we do not know about this virus. If it remains dormant in our systems to only come back years later. How long the immunity lasts after one recovers from the virus, will the vaccine be effective or at least reduce the fatalities. There is no current treatment and the one drug approved is in limited supply.

The one thing I am curious about is the us of other vaccine especially for TB that was reportedly used in Asian countries. Has that had an impact on the spread of Covid-19 as South Korea was vigilant in its attack with widespread testing and investigating cases while Japan was not as strong. Yet both countries have had both low counts and even lower fatalities. Or is it because of the two different strains?

However without being united towards a common goal of doing our best to defeat an enemy that has killed more Americans than the Vietnam War, both Gulf Wars, Afghanistan, and 9/11 we will remain confused, suspicious, and worse yet, afraid of all those around us.

((((Ready))))

[marvin4242]

RTFM: there is a lot of unity in research around the world, and there is a lot of coordination through the WHO. It is simply the US (or more accurately this administration) that is main outlier in a unified front. And it will have consequences as the US has been the traditional “honest broker” and leading voice of such efforts. But not now. In fact it appears everyone is quietly looking away from us not by choice but by necessity. For example a research grant that was already given before Covid to study bat viruses in China was pulled for political reasons, halting ongoing valuable research that preceded Covid about viruses jumping to humans.

The various strains of the virus have been extensively sequences and studied, which is how far we have some. To the point where we can even start to point to which variant started a spread in even an area of a country (for example the strain in NY is not the same as the one that was in Washington state). These variants all seem minor in that they are not more or less virulent. And so far all data points that catching the disease probably gives same kind of immunity as seasonal flu, once you have a strain you won’t have it again until a variant comes back that is sufficiently changed. The more interesting data will be in whether the variant one will be able to spread as strongly and effectively as this one as there will be some related immunity, the same way we have mild and worse flu seasons.

Keep in mind this virus is brand new to us. So by all indications the first infection should be the most virulent and strongest.

[xyzcf]

A great article of how this pandemic is affecting our mental health

https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/corona-exhausted-moral-fatigue-974311/

[marvin4242]

Two new interesting things to note:

1) Another very high quality randomized study shows Hydroxychloroquine is NOT effective in treating Covid-19, and slightly increased death rates. Using your gut doesn’t work, science does.

Hydroxychloroquine does not cure Covid-19, say drug trial chiefs

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/05/hydroxychloroquine-does-not-cure-covid-19-say-drug-trial-chiefs

2) Although data is hard to come by the recommendations are definitely now shifting to wearing masks, and that masks do show a good amount of effectiveness. People at high risk should wear medical grade masks if they are in public and potentially exposed, and others should wear 3 layer masks. The first can help reduce chances of catching the virus, the second helps prevent spread. I really don’t understand people who refuse to simply wear a mask when out in public in stores. It is such a simple and minimal thing to do. Why would you refuse?

[Treasur]

Oh my goodness.....a few snippets from Mr Trump's Tulsa rally plus other stuff going on is enough to make your head spin. Or is it just me?

He's told people to slow down testing bc that is how you have more cases? Like a ten year old boy with the sniffles? How do people believe that? Whether you test or not, if someone has the virus they have the virus, test or not....logically...what testing 'the boy with sniffles' does is limit the chance of spreading it to others who might end up dying surely? To be fair, Mr Trump is not alone in this kind of 'testing makes it real' belief....I suspect some bits of the UK government might think the same as we are not covering ourselves in glory on testing either 

And 'there are lots of different names for Covid 19'? Like 'Kung flu' ffs? Well no actually....in Mr Trump's head there may be....but factually the virus is called a coronavirus and the illness is called Covid19. And it isn't even a flu virus factually speaking. It's like watching some kind of horrific Gaslighting Master Class where someone just says things loudly and often enough until people believe them....and most LBS know what that feels like 

And is it just me or is America starting to look like an autocracy checklist? If you just removed the concept that this was happening in America, bc of how we all think about America emotionally....does it not look like the things that autocratic dictators do to control a country? Threatening to send in the military, hunkering in bunkers, a coup at the Voice of America to create a centralised controlled media, a cult of personality with rallys, ousting members of the legal system, giving control over important things to inexperienced lackies, family members and business associates, big speeches saying x is actually y.....is it just me or does this look like pretty scary dictator type stuff? I have lived in autocratic states at earlier times in my life and some of this stuff looks pretty textbook to me. And what on earth is the Senate and Congress doing to protect the normal constitutional constraints on power?

Even from over here, I feel like I'm being BD'd again..... .....or is it just me with a bit of PTSD/LBS residual anxiety or hypervigilance?

And to be clear, I'm not being politically partisan or claiming that there isn't some weird stuff going on in my own country too as this recent article suggests https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jun/19/boris-johnson-midlife-crisis-plane-respray-royal-yachts But the world feels very weird to me right now....and I suppose I see HS as one of the few places I can come and say 'hmmm, is it me or is this weird?'

Making risk- based decisions for ourselves right now is a moving target and information is not always cut and dried. I went to my first socially distanced BBQ with neighbours last night....which was lovely....but my shielded chum and me were taking the social distance thing a bit more seriously than her h wanted to do. And bc where I live is a little holiday spot, and the weather is good, and hotels etc are supposed to be reopening on July 4th....my friend and me were discussing if we think we will need to wear masks more when there start to be more people around. In a small seaside town with only the normal 'winter' residents around who mostly know each other, polite social distancing has been pretty easy and finding outside space easy, so not much mask wearing here.....but should that change? And how do you feel if you are the only one walking down a street in a mask? It is a strange time and not always so easy to know what you should do isn't it? Tbh it reminded me a bit of trying to make decisions post BD when I knew my h was far from normal but it seemed like some others in RL thought I was nuts, in denial or over-reacting......

Reading that there are some significant recent increases in covid cases in some states, my thoughts and prayers are with any of you who are living in those states or who work in healthcare. Please focus on the facts as best as you are able and take good care of yourselves and your loved ones x

[Treasur]

Ha ha...I took a walk and decided that a) some of these things are real and weird AND b) some of my response was probably a bit of PTSD residue lol.

So in a more constructive spirit....this https://www.besselvanderkolk.com/blog/how-we-can-nurture-our-mental-health-during-the-covid-19-pandemic?passkey=fcGhjzqjXfyr and this https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/18/health/resilience-relationships-trauma.html 

[Thunder]

Nope!  I agreed with every word you said.

what on earth is the Senate and Congress doing to protect the normal constitutional constraints on power?

Very good question!   

[Nas]

The president of the United States used the racist term “Kung flu.” In a speech that had been planned for weeks. I am mortified and embarrassed and disgusted.

[Treasur]

Well, Nas....and how nice to 'see' you  ....I'm not sure you or anyone else here from the US needs to feel mortified. Unless you have a secret side job as Mr Trump's speechwriter lol.

It's not good though is it? I am truly sorry that, on top of all the other challenges of a pandemic, the US president has the character that he has and behaves as he does.

I met a man today, a stranger, who shared this quote with me from Albert Camus
"In the midst of winter, I found there was, within me, an invincible summer. And that makes me happy. For it says that no matter how hard the world pushes against me, within me, there's something stronger – something better, pushing right back.”

[Thunder]

I hope it's at the polls!

[Mitzpah]

Ha ha...I took a walk and decided that a) some of these things are real and weird AND b) some of my response was probably a bit of PTSD residue lol.

So in a more constructive spirit....this https://www.besselvanderkolk.com/blog/how-we-can-nurture-our-mental-health-during-the-covid-19-pandemic?passkey=fcGhjzqjXfyr and this https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/18/health/resilience-relationships-trauma.html 

I loved Bessel van der Kolk - excellent!!!

I couldn't click on the other because I have used up my nytimes free articles already this month

I am sure it is good, though!

[Treasur]

The video is better, xyz 
Such a terrifically practical take on ways that everyone might look after their needs in uncertain or traumatic times imho.

[xyzcf]

Thunder:

what on earth is the Senate and Congress doing to protect the normal constitutional constraints on power?

I became a US citizen in 2016. Having paid taxes for 10 years as a green card holder (permanent resident), I wanted to be able to vote. I was scared when the results came in and he "stole" the election but many American friends reassured me ...they said that there were so many checks and balances that he would not be able to really cause any damage.

I am totally sick about what I am seeing here and the leader's inability to show any decency for anything really..the list is so long and I am not seeing any checks and balances to stop this insanity.

Maybe I am being paranoid, but the borders are "closed" between the US and Canada..I would need to go into quarantine for 14 days if I wanted to see my family...and I totally agree with Canada's protocols. I know that Canada will not be in any hurry to open the borders, especially since the number of cases in the US keep climbing and I am really worried about what we are going to see in the next 2-3 weeks...

Any civilized country that uses tear gas and rubber bullets on peaceful protestors so that someone can have a photo opt...and that the police followed that order to shoot rubber bullets into a crowd of peaceful demonstrators, a right that is guaranteed in the Constitution..what would America be saying about another country that would do such a thing?

The whole thing on so many levels is so so WRONG.

I am deeply upset by it all..and there doesn't seem to be an end in sight..it just gets more and more bizarre.

[Treasur]

The video is better, xyz 
Such a terrifically practical take on ways that everyone might look after their needs in uncertain or traumatic times imho.

Sorry - my xyz should have been Mitz...fat fingers moment 

And the 'real' xyz....yup, I suspect we LBS grow pretty tired of bizarre, don't we? But I know from mynown experience that the US is as full of fine folks of good heart as anywhere else....so I will keep hoping that the real silent majority will prevail in time. Bc the disordered draw the eye but I honestly believe there are more of us in the world.

[terra]

xyzcf, in my county we are still sheltering in place much of the time, and our state requires face masks in any indoor public establishment. People here in our neighborhood break that rule, but only maybe 1 out of every 20. And when you see that 1, it’s jarring. You have to wonder what they are even thinking.

It’s mostly white Americans of a certain age group, here, breaking that rule so casually. And normally I’m a person who calls people out, but, now doesn’t feel like a great time to be doing so.

D and I live in a part of the country that is really a bubble, I think. We didn’t vote for this despot, and it’s been alarming that he even campaigned in 2016. I said it to the kids that year, because they were angry and afraid — he won’t win; he can’t; if he does, we will stop at nothing to reverse it and him.

And that’s how I found out how little power we have even as native-born citizens here. I still am in regular contact with local and state representatives, although since about April this year, I’ve lost heart.

That Tulsa rally was a farce, and I’m glad the k-pop and TikTok communities did their thing to make it so. I’ve said for years that if the power of k-pop stans could be harnessed politically, we’d see fast and sweeping positive change. They aren’t all kids or teens, but those who are, have heart for justice and equality, and peace. When they reach voting age, this country will get a lot different and better.

I received a photo from h the other day, a group of people I’ve never seen before, diverse and apparently happy, all bare-faced at a table inside a busy restaurant full of other bare-faced people. None socially distant. They were out drinking at 6pm on a weeknight.

They work for the medical field, educators. I’ve been horrified all weekend, because wow: not even they look to be taking this seriously. H, either, but, he wouldn’t anyway.

I’m sad that you are separated by the borders and by quarantine restrictions; I have that too, with my family, and am just lucky that my child is still of at-home age.

But I have never been so lonely in all my life. This evening I wondered when there will ever be another hand to hold mine, again.

I don’t know. In the meantime, no long-distance travel, and we remain sheltering in place, and when we’re out of the house, even just walking the neighborhood, we time that for very early or very late. And even when we know no one else is out, we wear the face masks.

It’s hard to imagine seeing friends or family again, if they didn’t do the same. This has split the collective in such an unexpected way, and I just want to assure you, some parts of the country understand how wrong and sad it all is.

I’ve been here all my life, and this has been the worst America. I know our reputation as a people here has been just demolished, across the world. I miss the international community, and the grace or dignity of the past. But, let’s just keep knowing our best ideals at home and in our interactions.

This has to get better.

[xyzcf]

Thanks Treasur and Terra.

Yesterday was a disaster! Saturday started out with witnessing my neighbor's cat get taken by 2 coyotes. The cat didn't make it. I had intense emotional feelings about Father's Day and have some house issues culminating in the afternoon with a toilet that leaked in the guest bathroom soaking the carpet, underpad, the floor. I don't cope, I just don't when I am overwhelmed and with everything else I was a wreck.

 

I’ve said for years that if the power of k-pop stans could be harnessed politically, we’d see fast and sweeping positive change. They aren’t all kids or teens, but those who are, have heart for justice and equality, and peace. When they reach voting age, this country will get a lot different and better.

Just think Greta Thunberg as a positive example of how powerful these kids can be!

6200 people at the rally.....we shall see what that really means. Looking at the participants, trying not to be judgmental but they almost all seemed to be cut from the same cookie cutter.

Most of my friends also seem to think the "danger" is over...even the handyman who thankfully came to fix the leak, I didn't have a mask on and neither did he and I kept trying to stay as far away as possible, he insited that COVID was not more dangerous than the flu.

Terra, this:

But I have never been so lonely in all my life. This evening I wondered when there will ever be another hand to hold mine, again.

It "helps" me to hear another person express so well the thoughts that I have.

I am not "well" right now and all the things I put into place before COVID are not available to me .........and yet I know how privileged I am and how "spoiled" I am to be worried about a flooded bathroom but the fear and emptiness and sadness and chaos swirling inside of me is very "real"....

My therapist will have her work cut out for her this week!

Terra, your post helps....to know that others feel this, that I am not "unusual" in experiencing such a great disturbance in my body...it just helps you know to be able to talk about this.

This makes me absolutely cry..who are these people??
Noose found in Bubba Wallace’s garage stall after NASCAR bans Confederate flag

[Treasur]

Xyz, for those of us who have experienced PTSD, we get that sometimes one's 'too much' can be lower. Residue.  I'm sorry that you had a 'moment' and glad that your IC is such a great source of support.

And gosh, doesn't it make a difference when you reach a point where at least you can understand those physical reactions.....?  I get it, as you know.

Imho, in these times, I am entirely confident that we are far from the only folks working through this stuff. And yes, I too have moments when doing it solo is not easy at all.

[terra]

A little levity: I just saw the article about “Where Will We Pee When We’re Out in Our Half-Reopened States?”

I won’t link it here; I only read the headline and that was good enough for me.

It’s not a problem for me, so far. My big answer to it just now is,

“You should have gone before we left the house.”

[MyBrainIsBroken]

Here is a British response to terra's question.

People are defecating outside the Queen's vacation home
https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/balmoral-outdoor-toilet-scli-gbr-intl/index.html

[xyzcf]

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/psychology-why-people-refuse-wear-face-masks_l_5efb723cc5b6ca970915bc53

I found this helpful to understand why some people are so adamant that they will not wear a mask, even though study after study has shown that wearing a mask decreases the spread of the virus and gives the person wearing a mask some protection from catching COVID

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/face-masks-economy-goldman-sachs_ca_5efdf7c3c5b6acab284cc1c7

[marvin4242]

Thank you very interesting indeed. But it also shows what is a major weakness in the human psyche. We are a complex mix of many processes that have evolved over time and been layered. So although we are capable of incredible insight, knowledge, connectedness and complex thoughts we can also fall into very base and destructive modes of existence (think aggression, war, and tribalism).

So when feeling unsafe (whether Covid or MLC) we can try to connect to our emotions and intellect, use reason and understanding and allow our feelings to guide us (higher functions, empathy, reason), or we can sink into narcissism, hatred and anger (fight/flight). Sadly a lot of people, specially in the US, seem to be choosing hatred and tribalism and anger in many things daily. It is simply astounding to see it when it applies to a pandemic.

As someone who was born a Christian but is an atheist I am always amazed how much of Christian philosophy is rooted in the empathy, caring, community, and what I would say are the “better angels” of human psyche. It really is very jarring to see people who claim to hold the faith act so self centered at the same time, specially when it comes to wearing masks in order to protect the most vulnerable in our society.

[Ready2Transform]

(think aggression, war, and tribalism).

And MLC. 

Sadly a lot of people, specially in the US, seem to be choosing hatred and tribalism and anger in many things daily. It is simply astounding to see it when it applies to a pandemic.

It is strange how this aggression is seemingly limited to the US. It's as though our collective hippocampus is not functioning, as none of this leads to a need for survival. Making me dip back into Freud and the ego. Are we that imbalanced in our attachment to our fragile identities? Not blaming politics for it as there are a lot of people making choices from some other place that clearly existed long before the two party system fractured as much as it has. Asking honestly out of curiosity - nature or nurture? Is it mob mentality or such a lack of physical health that our brain chemistries are no long benefiting us?

[Treasur]

Here we seem to be seeing patches of idk, a kind of resentful passive-aggressive social disengagement? More drinking, domestic violence has increased, people flocking to beaches and then leaving huge piles of rubbish....I even heard this morning that people in a neighbouring village near a beach had experienced people defecating and urinating on the beach and in someone's front garden righg in front of the outraged householder . A kind of massive FU. The kind of behaviour that you hear about in the worst of Brits Abroad in Benidorm stories....a loutishness I guess. This behaviour is not widespread or common, but it feels as if there is a kind of brewing resentment and some erosion in usual social norms that is a kind of angry sense of entitlement perhaps or a reaction to feeling powerless maybe? Not sure....the English as a general rule are not big on explicit revolutions lol....but pretty good at a kind of disengaged resentment 

Perhaps what a pandemic crisis does is highlight the existing fractures in a society without the distractions that we use to avoid seeing them?

[OffRoad]

But is this really limited to the US? All countries don't wear or require masks, might this have been an issue in those countries if they had gotten the same "wear a mask/masks don't really help" half requirements that then changed to "shame on you if you don't wear one?" Hard to tell.

I hate wearing a mask with a passion, though I wear one out of consideration for others. I can't get the mask that works best for me ( my old 3m n95 particulate mask that I used when working with dust or paint-its formed so as not to touch my face anywhere except the edges). People say it's not that big of a deal to wear one, but for me with what is available (and I have tried a lot), my face sweats, my skin breaks out, my eyes water, I feel like I can't breath after about an hour.  If I had to wear one all day in school or at work, I could not do it with the masks available. As a result, I rarely go out. In being considerate of the rest of the world, I have no choice but to be inconsiderate of myself. It's a pretty lousy way to live, but I thank my lucky stars that I work in an industry where I can work from home.

What I want to know is why after all this time is there still a dearth of things like the disposable 3m masks for the general public (much less still one for medical personnel)? I'd even take the non N95 ones and double up.

[Mitzpah]

Interesting... as many of you may have seen, Brazil is in a big mess now because we are following other countries' lead in reopening while the disease is still spreading.

So, the congress tried to pass a law that makes the use of facial coverings in public spaces mandatory - our president decided to veto the law, saying that it enroaches on individual and domestic rights, which of course , makes no sense as it is very clear that the law mentions public spaces. The head of the house will now try to knock the president's veto down.

Meanwhile, here in Rio, the mayor told the press that schools were ok to open as children are immune!

They allowed bars and restaurants to reopen yesterday... it was a complete disaster. In this bohemian city, you can't get people to go home at 11 pm, neither can you stop them from milling about on the pavements outside the bars, beer in hand, enthusiastically greeting their long lost mates, no masks on, no social distancing... this is in a city that has lost over 10,000 to the pandemic...

I continue to wear masks in public, surrounded by sanitizer, self isolating, social distancing and I begin to wonder, who is mad

[Nerissa]

Freud’s idea of The Death Instinct’ in action!

[Ready2Transform]

I feel a slight bit better that it's not just the US that seems to have this divide in public safety. Except I wish it was none of us! Was out today with my dad and people had the masks around their necks, I guess ready to pull them up if they got busted not wearing one. The fact that it's still more about a mandate than about their own (and others') safety is really heartbreaking.

[xyzcf]

I like my 2 ply 100% cotton mask that I made. I prefer having it tied around the back of my head and neck to elastics around my ears.

I truly believe that if 2 people both are wearing a "mask" and social distancing that it does make a huge difference in communicability.

I don't need to wear it a great deal..just when I am in stores which I only go to if absolutely necessary. I have a large deck and I will have a friend over for coffee of a glass or wine outside...probably about 8 feet a part and I am not worried in those conditions.

You cannot completely eliminate the risk but from several things I have read, a double ply face mask that fits snugly on your face will protect you. That just makes sense to me.

Grocery shopping today, there were several people not wearing a mask..in spite of everything that is being said now.

I don't think that having been told initially that masks were not necessary should mean that we cannot look at the science now which shows that they are important..that we cannot change out behavior when more information is available, especially since wearing a mask is not harmful.

I smoked 2 packages of cigarettes a day, as a nurse, on the units I worked...and as the years went by, more information was out saying that smoking was bad for you...eventually I quit smoking....

I started isolating March 11. I am losing friends how important I think these measures are...so many people disagree with what I see as common sense.

[marvin4242]

What I want to know is why after all this time is there still a dearth of things like the disposable 3m masks for the general public (much less still one for medical personnel)? I'd even take the non N95 ones and double up.

I am curious I have had no problems getting disposable surgical masks from Amazon for the past few weeks. I have two 100 packs sitting by the door. Have you looked there?

https://www.amazon.com/Disposable-Face-Mask-Breathable-Masks/dp/B089HW9VSV/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=1HC9Z8OCYVS4V&dchild=1&keywords=surgical+masks+disposable&qid=1593820483&sprefix=Surgical%2Caps%2C164&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUExMk1EVFBaV0dWSkFWJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwMTI0NjA3WUFPTEFTMVY4OEFCJmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTEwMzQ3NDUxVzBNWFkyN0c4NFFLJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfYXRmJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==

I feel a slight bit better that it's not just the US that seems to have this divide in public safety. Except I wish it was none of us! Was out today with my dad and people had the masks around their necks, I guess ready to pull them up if they got busted not wearing one. The fact that it's still more about a mandate than about their own (and others') safety is really heartbreaking.

I think its everywhere, its a matter of percentages. You see all spectrum of behaviour everywhere, its when the balances really shift that you have to ask yourself what is going on?

I don't think that having been told initially that masks were not necessary should mean that we cannot look at the science now which shows that they are important..that we cannot change out behavior when more information is available, especially since wearing a mask is not harmful.

Yes all the information now clearly shows everyone wearing masks when in close contact makes a BIG difference, early on they were not sure but now they are. It comes down to people who don’t listen to experts, or think they know more than they do, or have a completely incorrect understanding of what “freedom” is and what rights they have. I love a sign I saw that had essentially a message saying you can come in without a mask, but only if you come in completely naked, because if you are wearing pants or clothes then wearing a mask is no different,

[OffRoad]

What I want to know is why after all this time is there still a dearth of things like the disposable 3m masks for the general public (much less still one for medical personnel)? I'd even take the non N95 ones and double up.

I am curious I have had no problems getting disposable surgical masks from Amazon for the past few weeks. I have two 100 packs sitting by the door. Have you looked there?

Thanks, marvin, and I have tried those. They do not work as I like, but they fit my face the same way my homemade one does. They touch my nose, cheeks and front of my chin in addition to all the way around the edges. The formed 3m masks touch nothing except around the edges, and the elastic goes all the way around my head.  I'll be honest, I never wore one of those for 8 hours either, but could easily do 3 hours without issue. I also once owned a tyvek hood with hose and battery, and I could wear that all day, no issue (soldered with lead based solder all day).  I can't get either now. Front line workers only. It seems to me if you want people to wear masks, make the ones a lot of us used to wear for work related things available. Those were made to wear for hours on end.

Again, I still wear the mask out of consideration for others if i must go out, but 100% understand not wanting to wear one. For me, courtesy outweighs my individual  wants/needs/desires.  I am perfectly capable of staying away from others, so it doesn't bother me if someone else doesn't wear one, except a doctor or dentist, but even if they chose not to wear one and told me so, I'd just not go. I have the right to stay home and have Amazon deliver my groceries.

I do believe that senior care facilities need to say " no mask, no enter", because many of those who are there can't just get up and leave, or avoid the caregivers.

[marvin4242]

Offroad, I know which ones you mean now. I happened to find a box of ten when I was cleaning out my garage a couple of weeks back and it was like finding treasure! I gave them to a couple of friends who need them more.

I wear masks for others also, because I don’t want to ever think that my carelessness cost someone their life or their well being. I am not in a high risk group, I don’t have someone to worry about. So in a sense it would be so easy to be “selfish.” But like you I choose to take great care for the greater good. I just wish everyone, specially some of the younger kids, would get that. If we don’t stop the spread it hurts everyone.

I think if we all did what we have to for everyone’s well being we would be so much better off in this than we are now.

[marvin4242]

A great video showing why masks are so effective, how they in no way impact any oxygen levels nor build up carbon dioxide despite all the misinformation flowing around. I have no idea where all the anti-mask misinformation came from and I do not understand why people choose to believe incorrect facts when at this point we know a lot more than we did in the early days.

Please watch, and wear masks. For everyone’s sake. No you will not have lack of oxygen, nor will you have carbon dioxide build up. And it is not a questions of “freedom,” its a question of caring for your and everyone else’s well being. We all wear clothes in public, hopefully clothes when we sit on a bench in the gym (although some people don’t but that’s maybe just a male thing), and this is no different.

https://youtu.be/0Tp0zB904Mc

[terra]

No links today but just a cushioned and personally informed caution:

If your county or locale is on renewed or stricter quarantines now, especially in USA, please do not venture outside your locale into neighboring counties for recreation or respite. The orders and the residents in that neighboring location may have different ideas about what is acceptable and what is not in these circumstances.

It’s a risk, and, just don’t risk it. Right now in a lot of locales, life is to be lived and weathered in your own home space, your own yard.

No long distance travel, even just a few hours away, unless for *truly* essential business or because you intend to remain at destination for the duration of this health crisis.

Stay well, stay home, wear your mask otherwise, and although it is against the guidelines, HUGS. Virtual ones of course. Hopefully it’s the thought that counts, because I know for some of us, the virtual ones are all we’ve got.

STAY WELL.

[OldPilot]

https://www.henryford.com/news/2020/07/hydro-treatment-study

I guess you all think this is fake too.

[Mitzpah]

https://www.henryford.com/news/2020/07/hydro-treatment-study

I guess you all think this is fake too.

Apparently the president of Brazil agrees with this. He started on this regime as soon as he suspected he had Covid-19. Of course, there is a lot of criticism from all sectors and I think the truth is - nobody really knows for sure what helps.

I know that I would not like to see either my mother or my beloved using this combination of drugs - the antibiotic ok, but not the hydro... my mother, because of her age (81) and general state of health, she suffers from high blood pressure, a tendency to diabetes (under control at the moment), and circulatory deficiencies in legs. My beloved because he has a cardiopathy which causes arrythmia, currently medicated, but always a concern.

I heard the other day that the armed forces in Brazil have hydroxychloroquine stocked for 13 years (!!!!), apparently, it was produced to face Covid 19 at the beginning of the pandemic and they need to justify the investment 

So, no, I don't think it is fake, I just think it is not a guaranteed cure and there needs to be a lot of caution in using it in patients who might have heart problems

[OldPilot]

I think the truth is - nobody really knows for sure what helps.

This I agree with.

I have already had Covid and am still recovering.( My case was moderate not severe but not pleasant)

I wish this was not so political and we would just listen to the science (which does not seem to exist btw)

I have friends working in the pharmacutical industry and I pray they come up with something fast.

The thing I would really like to know if is this is like Lymes disease which means I have it for the rest of my life - which is the way it seems right now.

[marvin4242]

https://www.henryford.com/news/2020/07/hydro-treatment-study

I guess you all think this is fake too.

OldPilot: with all due respect science is not about "fake" and "real." These words are political and have no room in a scientific discussion or investigation. Science uses a well defined and reproducible procedure to uncover the truth. There is no single study or outcome that decides this, and cherry picking is one of the first things we are thought to avoid when using the scientific method.

The majority of studies so far show no measurable improvement in outcome or survival. That doesn't mean they are all pointing to the same exact results. The consensus is tilting (and did a little while ago) that Hydroxychloroquine offers no significant improvement, and because of its dangerous side effect that means it is not a course of treatment. It was dropped from a few studies and has never been integrated into treatment plans.

I would like to suggest everyone separate out their beliefs from facts and knowledge, specially when it comes to health and well being of others. Viruses and health are NOT political discussions, they are NOT open to ones "viewpoint." This is part of the reason why we are now about to tip into crises in certain parts of the US while other countries are well into social and economic recovery.

BTW I would post about the mother (who is a nurse) who took her immunocompromised 18 year old daughter to a Covid exposure party at her church. Her daughter got sick, and despite her mothers illegal treatment using Hydroxychloroquine she sadly died at a young age.

I have no interest in political discussion in US anymore, because it has devolved for some into a form of cult or religion. But I will never accept science and fact falling into that domain. Please everyone, we are all in this together.

[OffRoad]

https://www.henryford.com/news/2020/07/hydro-treatment-study

I guess you all think this is fake too.

Good to see that the science doesn't quit because people have opinions based on half facts.

[Treasur]

Some interesting discussions on the JAMA YouTube channel with some reputable and knowledgeable scientists and doctors https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aGbv5QQV6MI

What strikes me most is how clear they are that in virus time, if not for us humans, it is still early days and there is a lot that they do not yet know for sure....but are working hard to figure out.

[xyzcf]

I would like to suggest everyone separate out their beliefs from facts and knowledge, specially when it comes to health and well being of others. Viruses and health are NOT political discussions, they are NOT open to ones "viewpoint." This is part of the reason why we are now about to tip into crises in certain parts of the US while other countries are well into social and economic recovery.

This is pure gold. Thank you marvin.

I guess you all think this is fake too

this disturbed me when I read it this morning 

With all the issues with this virus, the idea that there is some kind of conspiracy to prevent people from getting correct information alarms me.

What strikes me most is how clear they are that in virus time, if not for us humans, it is still early days and there is a lot that they do not yet know for sure....but are working hard to figure out

There are so many things we do not know about the human body. It's reaction to this virus is quite different than any virus that I know of and we are learning all the time, and things that they thought work are being shown that there may be a better way...for example, ventilators are not being used as frequently as it has been found that other measures to deliver oxygen may work better.

I recently watched a special on the use of probiotics, especially to prevent diarrhea when given antibiotics...2 highly respectable physicians studying this for years with completely opposing conclusions regarding the use of probiotics which are now even being "added" to baby formula and baby foods...there is no regulation to their use in infant formula and who knows what the long term side effects might be from adding these to baby food?

I am sorry OP that you contracted the virus and I too would be worried about the long term sequelae.

With the reviews I have read about Hydroxychloroquine and the serious side effects, plus the studies that show no proof that it helps, I would not be rushing out to take it. That's my belief, others would be willing to take that chance.

[marvin4242]

Actually it seems the Henry Ford study may have flaws, it was not randomized. Patients who received  hydroxychloroquine were much more likely to also get steroids which has shown to be effective. The same group apparently wants to perform a larger truly random study.

This is only getting attention because of the Presidents obsession with a drug that doesn't work, and he tweeted about it. It has no scientific backing and it’s flaws have been noted by other practitioners.

I don’t understand this obsession and politicization of a medical issue.

https://www.statnews.com/2020/07/08/a-flawed-covid-19-study-gets-the-white-houses-attention-and-the-fda-may-pay-the-price/

[Mitzpah]

This is only getting attention because of the Presidents obsession with a drug that doesn't work, and he tweeted about it. It has no scientific backing and it’s flaws have been noted by other practitioners.

I don’t understand this obsession and politicization of a medical issue.

This is happening here in Brazil, too.

The president of this country is having ECGs twice (!!!) a day while on this drug in order to predict possible heart complications - when you consider that the great majority of the population has to wait weeks or months to have one ECG...

There seems to be an obssession with proving that this drug is the panacea, miracle drug, cure all - smh

[marvin4242]

And in the world of real science great new large scale study of risk factors for mortality with Covid-19.

https://www.technologyreview.com/2020/07/09/1004935/these-are-the-factors-that-put-you-at-higher-risk-of-dying-from-covid-19/?utm_source=digg

The conclusion:

“ What they found: As we knew, age is the single biggest indicator of whether someone is likely to die from the coronavirus, and the risk increases sharply among those over 80. People older than 80 were hundreds of times more likely to die than people under 40, and more than 90% of deaths in England were in people over 60. Men were more likely to die than women of the same age: they accounted for 60% of all deaths. People with underlying medical conditions like obesity, diabetes, severe asthma, and cardiovascular disease were at higher risk, as were people with lower incomes.”

[terra]

So, I work in the sciences and pharma, and some of the big corporate names you’ve heard in the news about vaccines or tests or antibodies, I’ve been either working for or tapped to work for during this pandemic.

I will tell you that right now all those environments are a pure mess and that no matter how smart or hard anyone is working to establish any solution, the proofing of any solution requires TIME. Period.

Locally, we are not about to accept any result into our own individual bodies until the testing has been completed in a safe and reasonable way, and will instead wait until the proofing has all been proven to hold.

I am in full agreement that science and viruses are not political. Arguing about real and fake in this one respect is sort of like having a cow about whether this or that OTC medication has any effect on your chronic headaches. It does, and if it doesn’t, obviously you’re going to consult a medical professional to find out why or to learn what else will help you.

If the medical professional tells you to stop drinking caffeine, eating chocolate and cheese, or banging your head against the wall, hopefully you will stop doing those things and then voila! Not so many headaches.

If you trust science and medical professionals at least that far — and I’m not judging anyone here, honestly your beliefs and practices only really matter if they live in my house, which I know they don’t — I don’t see why there is any pushback against science and medicine about *this*, when this is such a larger and wider health concern.

You couldn’t pay me to try hydroxychloroquine, for anything. That recommendation came from a marketing professional. In my entire career, we make a distinction between the marketing and the facts. No shame on marketing folks; just, the source of the actual information you need is going to say something very different.

It’s sad that the USA is so deeply divided on this and other issues. I don’t see the same divisions at all, in reporting or personal accounts from any other country in the world.

[Thunder]

Terra,

I have an answer for you but I don't want to go there on this thread.
This is about the Coronavirus and should stay that way.

Just facts and information sharing.  It should not be political.  This virus doesn't care who you voted for.  We're all in this together.

I will say the vast majority of Americans do believe in science though, trust me.

[terra]

Thunder, HUGS. I’m just giving my perspective from within the sciences and pharma development environments. Like the virus itself, that perspective is not about politics. It’s a loose insight into the state of things in those environments at this time, with a reminder that in order for any medical device or treatment to be proven safe, it has to be tested and retested and proven before release to any public, and that these things can’t be rushed. And that only the source of the information is the best source of the information. I hope you will let my previous post stay on this thread and as originally written.

[xyzcf]

I disagree with you Thunder. In the US, COVID is treated as a political issue, not a public health crisis as it is in many countries that have been successful in decreasing the number of cases and deaths.

The rage that people have about wearing a mask, a simple and effective public health measure that has been proven over and over again to stop the spread of the virus ...all because they believe that wearing a mask goes against "their" freedom (and they don't give a damn about the freedom of others to not be infected )is appalling to me.

This is about the Coronavirus and should stay that way.

It would be impossible to discuss COVID and what is happening in this country without politics coming into the conversation. The lack of clear leadership on how to handle the virus has caused immense unnecessary deaths and number of cases. Individual states, who have governor's that follow CDC guidelines and defer to experts in infectious diseases and epidemiology are ones that have a handle on dealing with this.

You couldn’t pay me to try hydroxychloroquine, for anything. That recommendation came from a marketing professional. In my entire career, we make a distinction between the marketing and the facts. No shame on marketing folks; just, the source of the actual information you need is going to say something very different.

Thanks Terra, that speaks volumes!

I hope you will let my previous post stay on this thread and as originally written.

Terra, there was absolutely NOTHING in your post that would require it being removed.

I thank you for your perspective on how the pharmaceutical industry is approaching this.

[Thunder]

Xyzcf I am not disagreeing with you at all, I don't really think you are either. We may share very much the same opinions, politically on this.  I just said this has been way too politically driven by SOME on this thread.  I only said it "shouldn't be."

I refrained from saying much because I didn't want to offend anyone who may have different political views than me.

Maybe it might be better to steer this away from political views and stick to facts.  Scientific facts about this virus or just important information or studies being done.

I am a political junkie and have other sites where I feel free to put my political views out there.

I just didn't think HS was the right platform for it. 

Dear Terra, nothing you said was reason to delete your post.  No worries.  : )
I welcome your input.

I do feel a little like Milly here, though.
She has great pride in her country, as do I.  Derogatory remarks about someone's country/homeland should really be off the table in my opinion, unless it adds to the discussion of the Coronaviras in some pertinent way.

[xyzcf]

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/07/anthony-faucis-boss-on-why-things-could-be-much-better-soon.html?utm_source=pocket-newtab-global-en-GB&fbclid=IwAR3ae0nX0qFVHCG_MttS0cwiAS0lK_cYDEcJHBybdIR_TBCuzmOhB7-zmbs

Good news from  the head of NIH, Dr. Francis Collins

[terra]

xyzcf, thank you so very much for this latest link.

One thing to remember is that all of this will be considered new development. In this field, new development is a more hectic environment even before COVID-19. There are fast shifts in all areas of it, from boardrooms to lab and manufacturing. The time pressure on this particular new development product, for all of the companies participating across the globe, is probably unimaginable unless you’ve been in these environments.

It’s just not like sustaining products at *all*.

The new development teams are going to be intensive and hardcore about getting results as quickly as possible. In the USA, where I have worked in these environments, even prior to this pandemic, I’ve observed a sharp shift from previously very structured and very regulated to what to me feels like a more chaotic approach marked by lack of accountability from leadership on down. It’s one of the reasons I have chosen to lay low and reconsider my decades-long career; the ethics, integrity, and structured approach I value has seemed to have fallen by the wayside. There are a lot of reasons for this, and I know one of the biggest is cultural. That has to do with the leadership at the top, here, and I don’t mean the leadership in any company.

You know what I mean, I hope.

This article is reassuring, and not least because this leader acknowledges the work that other countries are doing to find a solution to this virus.

What I want to say here, from personal perspective within several companies in the USA, is that it’s good that our country isn’t the only one working on this. We really do want any product to be tested all the way, and in the correct way. Ideally whichever country or company first identifies a solution that works will share out the formula and procedures to the rest of the world without making it a thing of politics or financial product.

I don’t know if that will happen, but it really should. If it goes any other way, I don’t know what I will ever do for career or paycheck ever again. The backbone of these environments used to be ethics and integrity. Look to the manufacturers who inspire the most trust. This is not about time to market. If we have to wait, because the testing is critical, then we have to wait.

[OffRoad]

This graph shows cases may be going up, but deaths are still way down from April.

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/daily-covid-deaths-3-day-average

The site has some very good graphs and charts that show where increases and decreases have happened by country.

[marvin4242]

This graph shows cases may be going up, but deaths are still way down from April.

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/daily-covid-deaths-3-day-average

The site has some very good graphs and charts that show where increases and decreases have happened by country.

Yes one of the minor silver linings is that more of the cases are coming from younger people at lower risk. And we may have better treatment. But this is temporary. The rate of increase is so large that this improvement will be swamped by sheer numbers, and once again hospitals may be overwhelmed (as some are hitting capacity in Texas and Florida). So this is not a thing to be very comfortable with.

Also once enough of the population gets sick it becomes near impossible to protect the at risk population.

[Thunder]

Would anyone like to continue this discussion on a new thread?

[xyzcf]

Next thread can be found at:

https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11539.msg767385#msg767385


Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #4