[LettingGo]

Wow, Shantilly, you are carrying your own guilt for the betrayal with your own Mother. While I don't have anything like that in my sitch, I do recognize that my LOYALTY lay with my Mother all the years of our marriage... that I went to HER with my problems, considered HER opinion above my husband's and placed her on the pedestal of "all knowing and wise" AND took on her worst attributes. Needless to say, I have felt my own guilt over this and had to forgive myself for it even as I asked my husband's forgiveness for not honoring him as a husband. Regardless of his shortcomings, he deserved my LOYALTY. He sure has it now...

You have already learned this lesson, so now you will forgive yourself for being human. 

[HeartsBlessing]

When I was so down I was extremely vulnerable and my Mother is extremely manipulative. My mother told me that H had touched the girls inappropriately. Now I NEVER believed it but it was one more thing incouldnt cope with. My mother set into motion terrible dealings and I refused to follow through with any of it because i didn't believe it but still had to do various things cos the complaint had been made.
When I rAn I ran to their place first and therein lies the betrayal. I know now I should never have gone there but I was lost and confused. I lasted a few weeks and then fled from there as well.

Doesn't sound like a "betrayal" to me; it simply sounds like your mother was trying to break down the marriage at that time...and she almost succeeded, because SHE was the one who couldn't let go of YOU.

I left my family of origin behind, and did what I was supposed to do, but my husband was the one who didn't make the break with his mother/family...and his mother was extremely manipulative and controlling; telling my husband I was having an affair when I wasn't, and a whole host of other things to try and break up our marriage.  It didn't work; but the issue of making that kind of break came up in his MLC; interestingly enough, during his MLC affair.

Running home to mother because of manipulation and control; is something that has to be broken within one's self, as when one marries they must "break" the ties that bind and strangle; and parents who won't let go of their adult children need to grow up themselves.

You DIDN'T betray your husband in these actions; your mother took advantage of your weakness and vulnerability; and she will account for these actions when the time comes.

You may see it as betrayal; but I see is someone who was unable at that time to break the hold of someone who was controlling and manipulating...and one who couldn't let go of you; that was VERY disrespectful of your mother toward YOU as an adult.

Stop blaming yourself for the web your mother was weaving of deceit, lies, control and manipulation.

You are still blaming yourself; but as you grow through all of this; you will see that although you had your part in this; your "conditioning" was the fault of your mother...as it was all you knew at that time.

As you learn another way of dealing; the guilt you have will dissolve away; and the child you were will become an adult; if that makes sense.

I had to deal with being controlled and manipulated, by my parents AND my husband.  I made my stands when it came to my married life, resulting in my dad refusing to speak to me; and that lasted until his death in 1994...Dad couldn't control me so he refused to have anything to do with me to "punish" me for my "behavior" toward him.

Yet my husband's control of me was dealt with during his MLC...and my husband accepted my boundaries, whereas my dad did not accept, and chose to walk away from a relationship with me.

This was NOT a betrayal of any sort; it was me standing up for what I believed in.

Anyway, plenty of food for thought; cut through your guilt, and see the situation for what it really was; changing what you can, and letting the rest go, last of all, forgiving yourself for being human; picking yourself up out of the dust, dusting yourself off, and go ON; leaving this all behind.

You cannot change the past, only the present, and make the future a better one.

I hope this helps you. 

[Shantilly Lace]

Thankyou it did  sometimes the outside opinion is exactly what is needed.
Your mum HB was amazingly brave to commit herself.  It's the bleakness inside.  No words can describe it truly.  THe things you loved so dearly mean nothing less then nothing even as you wish it were different.
That's the twist, you want it different but you can't.  Not that you won't, you can't.  And so you start trying to do things that will make you feel even fear is better then nothing.  Even anger.
I for a short while stole things from shops.  Stupid little things because I would FEEL something fear and then TRIUMPH becasue I put i over someone.
It didn't last long thank god.  But when I hear about celebrities who got caught stealing I go AHA.  They lost the buzz from the small stuff and just kept needing to get a feeling.  Has nothing to do with the items, generally you don't care about them its the "feeling", you are alive.
You guys have all seen it.  All of you.  The empty hollow look, as if they'v checked out but worse.
Or the flat look as the monster comes out to play.
You know why its flat?  because part of them is in conflict, the monster feels alive when he sees pain its a triumph (feeling... see I can do something...) but the person you care for is in there trying to stop, you may not believe it but we are.  And the monster doesn't want to stop becasue it feels.  Someone else is hurting not just them. And so the eyes are flat becasue the monster doesn't want oyu to see, but you do anyway, when it slips and the torment you see i ntheir eyes is there.  we have seen that too unless you have a vanisher.
I was a vanisher, I ran from H.  To PROTECT him.
I would imagine me killing him in all sorts of ways and the idea of that feeling of power... 
Often a vanisher vanishes because they see you at risk from them.
They see that you are strong and will live without them.
The vanisher goes through the same things as a boomerang you don't see it though.

[Buggy31]

SL
I have to say that your insight is such a blessing...you really do an EXCELLENT job of explaining these feelings....it's a real understanding....and something I need to here because I have such a hard time relating to what depression might feel like.....
All the things you're saying make sense with my sitch...H said things like
1.   It's hard.....when you don't feel for so long and then you feel something (referring to OW R..yuck...but I think more about a feeling then her)
2.  In Jan when I was pregnant....the WAY he looked at me was NUTZ and scary...I really questioned my safety at times...and I kept my distance...so I didn't become part of his obvious confusion....It was all in the eyes....resentment...really
3.  THe part you say about the eyes always gets me...they are so dead....so lifelesss....real dilation of pupils...I could pick these eyes out in others now and ....well...it tells so much....they ain't kiddin when they say eyes are the windows to the soul....When So lately I've had some strong intution when I look into my H's eyes and I do it often if he approaches me....and its that he's telling me "HE CAN'T STOP" through his eyes....now this may sound hokey but this is consistent and strong intution and you saying it tonight validated something I've felt from him.....like he's in there screaming through his eyes....the other time I saw this look in our R was when I was in labor and it was going on really long and I was really starting to suffer (cuz I"m one of those crazy nuts that refuses meds) and the look in his eyes seeing me suffering was the same....

So thank you SL for providing perspective....and for sharing with others your journey...it shines some light on the truth of what we need to see...to recognize...to  be more compassionate....

How was your R with your children during that time?   How did it change?  I know this is probably a hard topic so whatever you're comfortable with.....How did depression influence or change your R with the girls?

[BraveNewWorld]

Hi ShantillyLace,
                         Thanks for your insight. It feels helpful to me because I'm a husband whose wife is preparing to leave me, so it is interesting to read a woman's perspective of leaving. I think that I can see elements of depression in my wife too. She sleeps a lot for one thing. She has OCD and takes what I've been told is a fairly high dose of anti-depressants already, but they don't seem to help. She can say negative things about herself ( when she isn't saying them about me ). She has had breakdowns before - first crisis started a week after we got married.

In many ways she is the polar opposite of who she was, and in other ways I see exaggerated traits of the person she was too.

My wife wants to have the kids with her for 50% of the time - though right now at home, she doesn't spend too much time with them. She is far closer to the youngest son, and I'm a bit concerned that the older one will not get enough attention - so I'm trying to engage him as much as I can right now.

She has also suggested to me that I should find someone else. Told me that our neighbor commented that she had a friend she wanted me to meet! What!? Of course I have no eyes for anyone else right now. She has also told me that she intends to find a new husband eventually.

Her urge to leave has waxed and waned over the past year and a half until now it seems to have hit a peak.

I'll read over your words again. Thanks for writing them. Thinking of you in your current crisis.

holdingon

[Shantilly Lace]

Ah thanks B and HO
For me when I told my H to get someone knew it was partly out of guilt, partly believing I didn't deserve them and partly really believing that H deserved to have someone who would really love him and make him happy.  i genuinely believed I couldn't do that anymore.
Buggy at first I was withdrawn from my girls even though I had taken them I was going through the motions at best.  As time passed I became a better mum and realised i could love them. 
I would interact with them more and more.  They don't remember much due to their ages but I try to be very careful with how I  behave round H and OW.
I don't like the fact they see OW so much but in the last couple of months I have noticed a marked change.  He brings them home more.  He isn't as qick to whisk them over there and the stuff she buys them he is now seeing as "crap".  Not all of it is but  it is crap when it causes fights.  I recently added a boundary stating that toys that they were given from her had to stay there.  My reasons were simple
1) I am trying to declutter and things from her I couldn't I don't want to cause conflict and be seen as the bad person.
2) If she buys it it should stay there for them to enjoy,well for me its also a matter of don't use me as your dumping ground I have enough trouble keeping the house respectable so don't add to it.  Let them deal with the pile up of things.

whoops off topic. will halt now.

[leftylulu]

Thank you ShantillyLace for the wonderful insight you are giving us from what you went through. I have a vanisher and I have always felt he did this to protect me from himself. He would never intentionally hurt me. I saw him about 4 months ago and he looked like death warmed over, it spooked me. That kind of reaffirmed to me that it is exactly what he is doing, protecting me from himself. He does have OW but I know all about her and it's not love it's just a tool to keep him from himself. I hope that he can snap himself out of this. He has had dead eyes for quite sometime before he disappeared for the third time. He's been gone now for 9 months but I'm into this crisis a little over 18 months. I pray nightly for his safe return but I have been doing my own work on me. I am finding out some interesting stuff about me. This has brought out the worst in me and now it's starting to bring out the best in me. What a blessing in disguise.

[Buggy31]

THanks SL
I was going to take the same stance if the buying toys gets NUTZ...part of it is triggers and part of it is that I hate clutter and I've done a lot to minimize it since I"m now a single mom and can decided what I want to keep and what I want to throw away without any outside opinions....so if stuff starts coming in I can't promise....if not used that it will be thrown in a bag and dumped at goodwill...so we'll see where it goes but my intuition told me to respond and you validated that....thanks so much SL you are so a wise LBS....like so many here...I Think your experience with depression is probably helping you to be very wise throughout his MLC....

[Shantilly Lace]

Oh Buggy I made all the mistakes, begged pleaded, angry, fought ultimayums.  It has only been about 2 months that I have dropped the rope but even then I think I still have one  tiny thin thread of it... not holding it up but just holding it.
But it has made me think and self reflect and much of what I had buried when I left is raising its head and needs my attention to forgive myself.

With the girls being given stuff I forgot to add No 3.
They fight over it, terrible fights and so I don't want that here.
As son as a fight happens I pop it away and ask H to take it back... they can deal with it if it happens over there.

H always would complain we had too much stuff so I think that may be why it makes its way here,  too bad reality is with 5 young kids there is stuff they can deal with it.  I don't want anymore.

[Shantilly Lace]

Hmmm,
MAy add something to this I read in the MLC script about the one
"It will all go back the same way"

I have to admit, it is a genuine fear.

It took me months even after realising I wanted to go back to get the courage up.  The idea of it reverting to the old was paralysing.  I didn't want the old back.  I wanted  the love and caring but not other parts of it.  So it still took agaes, and I was receiving help and was on meds so when your MLCer says that it is a GENUINE fear.

NOw him walking away this time was for different reasons.  One of the reasons was he couldn't bear to lose me.  Odd hey.  But he couldn't bear to go through it again and his depresion didn't let him see I loved him.  I was also taking him for granted so that didn't help.

Other stuff as well.  Lots of other stuff.

Now Hamp I knew about H and the fact he was dating and getting a life.

I knew.
I lived over 10 hours away.  I never talked to H except to put the girls on the phone.  And still I knew.

THe girls would tell me little things.  Mutual friends would try and talk to me.  I KNEW.
I kNEW when he stopped crying and moping around and started to GET A LIFE.

I was RELIEVED when he first started dating as it took the pressure off of me, later on when I was myself again I didn't like it at all.  But when I first left he could have dropped dead in front of me and I would have been HAPPY.

Hello I was contemplating ways to kill him off.

Knowing he was miserable put pressure onto me and i couldn't handle pressure.  I felt I was drowning trying to keep him happy.  Once he started making himslef happy I was able to oncentrate more on me and then was able to become well.

So just cos your WS doesn't talk to you or carry on or give you any signs it doesn't mean a thing.  They will know.

It doesn't mean they will come running back because they have other fears to face.  Rational or irrational does't make it any less daunting to deal with.

And believe me just becasue I KNOW what it is like it doesn't make it any easier to deal with.  It makes it harder in its own way becasue I keep thinking well I did this, and
No 1 he isn't me
and
No 2 he isn't getting any help

BUt we know.  We know if you are moping around and we hate that.  Partly guilt, partly because we think "Oh yeah I did the right thing look at what I was involved with."

Still didn't stop me making lots of mistakes becasue he is a clinger and I was a vanisher.  And what I know now is that it makes it a damn sight more confusing on how to respond with them in your face all the time.
When they are out your face you may iss them and wonder what the hell happened but you have no choice but to move on in the end.  In your face is crueller in its own unique way.

I know those that have vanishers would give their right arms for the contact but it isn't all that it's cracked up to be.