[Shockandawe]

Hi everyone,

Another new thread.
I will answer your questions to the best of my ability and please continue to ask.
Always remember each and every one of you are not the reason your MLCer is in crisis. Let them go and use the energy on yourselves.

They are lost for now, you are not.

Previous thread:  https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11029.0

[crazyjourney]

Hi Shocks sis

I don’t have a question, I am an old timer and don’t feel the panic etc., that I used to but have been reading along.

Just wanted to say you are very kind to help everyone try and settle their minds and sorry you had to go through this yourself.

I can only think you must be a very nice person the way you have even dealt with some of the hiccups that occur on here at times, with everyone having different takes on it all from time to time it does get heated.

I don’t really know what mlc is supposed to do for a person, can’t for the life of me fathom why a person needs it really, there has to be an easier way to deal with issues surely.

Anyway thank you for your time, it makes for very interesting insight to not it all xx

[crazyjourney]

Sorry don’t know where not came from oops🤭 should of re read before pressing send

[Shockandawe]

Thank you Crazy

I totally understand how people get angry because I think I would too especially when you’re running around trying to make sense of the senseless. If I can help just one person to be a little more at peace then I am happy to know that something positive came from something so negative as in my MLC.

[rosetintedglasses]

ShocksSis I think you are helping more than one person. Don’t underestimate what you are doing here, it’s incredible.

Rose 🌹

[Loyal]

Hi SchockSis, I  also want to thankyou so very much for your neverending patience and kindness towards us. Words alone really cannot describe the gratitude and appreciation that so many (at least  99,99%) of us here on HS feel towards you.
Also a  huge thanks to your Sis for lending you to us.

Here are two questions that I`d love to hear your answers about.
You said you were horrible to your H but was it only verbal abuse or did you actually go out of your way to do things that would harm him otherwise (financially,  etc., etc.). If so, did you attempt to amend these things (e.g. by reimbursing him financially) or apologize to him for the things you had done to him whilst you were deep in the fog?

Were you only horrible to you H or did you start turning on other people (family, friends, acquaintances) the deeper you got into the fog?

[megogirl]

If so, did you attempt to amend these things (e.g. by reimbursing him financially) or apologize to him for the things you had done to him whilst you were deep in the fog?

I, too, have wondered what it feels like to have a pocket of clarity.  When having one, do you recognize that you're back to normal, even if only for a minute?

[Shockandawe]

Mego and Loyal

I was verbally very abusive to my ex h and I felt at that time I could have quite easily been physically so if he had made me angry enough! As shocking as this is it’s reality. I felt absolutely nothing only overwhelming anger and hatred against him. In time this changed to total indifference and he no longer angered me because I really didn’t care what he did or didn’t do.
It’s such a horrible and cruel thing to admit but the man I loved so much was now my arch enemy.
I didn’t believe a word he said (the fog in my head convinced me that he was a liar), and I felt anything he said was to manipulate me and pressure me.
As I started coming out of the fog I realised I still had my feelings of love for him and that they were there all along just pushed deep down below the fog.

[Shockandawe]

Thank you Rose

I just think it’s some small thing I can do to try to give a little understanding and peace to all LBSers because each and every one of you deserve at least that.

[Prism]

Shocks Sis,

I want to add my thanks for your contributions here. They are enormously helpful. It's just so hard to get our brains around the dramatic personality changes exhibited by someone we knew and loved for so long, and reading your comments reassure that at least for some of us, that rational, caring person may return. In my case, while my H did not monster or do some of the extreme behaviors that I have read about here, there are enough other similar behaviors and scripts and confusion that I am convinced it is MLC. Here is my question:

I have to believe that the H I knew, once recovering himself and realizing the impact of his behavior (if that happens), will feel "I am a heel. She deserves better. I did so much damage that there is nothing I can do to make things right. I will do the best I can with my life from where I am now." Honestly, I think that would be a rational take on the situation - I might even agree with those conclusions; I'm not sure yet. What motivates the recovering MLC-er to think the best thing is to come home?

Thank you!

Prism

[beyondblessed]

Shocked Sis, I just cannot for the life of me get behind this whole fog phenomena.   I don't see what changes to make it start to dissipate and why, if present in all of them, it doesn't always leave them at some point and let them see clearly, 
too?  Or, do you think it does, and they are just to prideful and vain to admit they firetrucked it all up?

[Puzzled]

Dear Shock's sis, thank you again for giving your time and insight to answer questions from us LBS. It's tremendously helpful to hear your perspective.  I've been wondering about the thought process and feelings of an MLCer during the latter part of their journey when depression may set in more and the fog is starting to lift or has lifted entirely.  How painful is it for an MLCer to experience depression and to look at the destruction they caused, and how strong is the longing to restore the relationship with one's spouse (or possibly ex-spouse by then)? 

In my H's FOO, abandonment of one's spouse and children is, unfortunately, a recurrent theme.  MIL and the BIL who also did this, however, do not show any outward signs of regretting their actions.  MIL, for example, also never talked to her children about leaving them behind, let alone apologize to them.  BIL is remarried.  Do you think MIL and BIL may never have really exited the tunnel then as they haven't attempted to make amends?

[Shelly7435]

Hey shocksis. Do you remember your h ever saying anything mean back to you? And does it matter now or do you just know it came from hurt?

If things were different for you, would you have ever text or called. And told yourh “ you missed him”?

[Mrs.Smiling]

HI SS,

I've been reading along and it's been interesting to read what you have to say.
I have a question, when deep within MLC, did you go weeks or months without any contact with your H?
My last interaction with exh was when he called me all sorts of names because he blamed me for messing up the "money situation" he was in control of and started having the State take from his check. After that last bought of spewing, he went silent. It's been almost a month since I or S22 have heard anything from him.

Thank you

[Couragedearheart]

Hi SS,
Thank you for taking the time to answer so many questions. It is informative and helpful and appreciated more than you know. A few questions if I might.

Would it have made a difference to you if the reaction at BD, was “I’m glad to see you have decided to stand up for yourself and verbalize what you need, what does our marriage need to be providing you that it isn’t?”

Prior to entering the fog if your spouse had demonstrated changes, and been willing to let you go and determined to work on themselves, and been self reflective, would that have changed your perception of them?

Was it only the comments that your SO made to you/about you that seemed so hurtful or were all their interactions perceived to be hurtful and deliberately antagonistic?

Does the MLCers reluctance to actually leave delay the process?

I understand that begging pleading and cajoling are unproductive.  But if faced with a calm deliberative spouse who held you to being responsible for your own emotions and actions and reactions, would that have given you pause or made you consider their responses to you?

Did your SO say things that stuck with you, or caused you to consider in the fog...or did you wall off Everything they said?

[Sam I Am]

Attaching

[forthetrees]

This is in response to what Couragedearheart asked:

Would it have made a difference to you if the reaction at BD, was “I’m glad to see you have decided to stand up for yourself and verbalize what you need, what does our marriage need to be providing you that it isn’t?”

I tried the response of showing my h, now ex, a link to an assertiveness training online program and said that I wanted to be there when he found his voice. Obviously this had no effect.

Did your SO say things that stuck with you, or caused you to consider in the fog...or did you wall off Everything they said?

I too would be curious to know if anything got through the fog and has stuck. I sent letters as well and wonder if those letters were ever read again or even saved. Would there be a difference between a conversation and a written communication?

Do you, Shock Sis, remember any of the outrageous statements that you made? This whole experience is so bizarre that many statements are seared into my memory. Not sure if that helps or not- helps as in confirming the crazy behaviors, not helps as in hurtful.

[Shockandawe]

Hi Beyond Blessed

I can only tell you of my own experience with the fog.
It is all enveloping and convincing and manipulative and strong. There were times when it did clear and I became very upset about my feelings rushing back at me but then it would descend again and push those feelings back. Once in property there are no feelings to push back as they are tucked up safely below the layers of thick fog. This is when indifference toward my ex h arrived.
As I came through and once again the fog pulled back enough to let me feel a little again it didn’t descend as thickly. This continued for some time and this is when I started to see om in the cold light of reality. As the fog got thinner my feelings grew stronger until the fog had disappeared it was then I had my awakening and it hit me like a freight train.
It takes a lot to come to terms with what an MLCer has done and even longer to build the strength to begin dealing with it and reconnecting.
I went in and out of the fog many times but each time I was out for longer periods.

[megogirl]

I went in and out of the fog many times but each time I was out for longer periods.

Do you recall what is was like to have a "pocket of clarity?"

Because for me, it was like I was talking to my "real" H again.  He would sound winded and a bit pathetic - like someone who'd just broken out of jail.  But I would still be so happy, thinking he was finally BACK. 

But then - POOF!!  He/it would vanish, just as quickly as he/it came.

And I've often wondered what he was feeling during those fleeting, ever-so-brief moments of normalcy (?)

[Jackolar12]

Hi SS, did other people notice your MLC changes and bring it to your attention, also post MLC did they notice you changed for the better.

[Keep believing]

Can you explain this fog? Was is something physical you could feel or see?

[Granite]

I stepped away for awhile and upon returning find you are still generously and graciously helping people.  Beautiful.

A raging fire fosters new growth, a flood brings fresh soil to the fields.

If it is not too personal a question….     

Given all the mayhem a crisis causes, did going thru the one result in any positives for you?  Not so much situational improvements, but deeper improvements within yourself?

I’d like to believe that similar to a forest fire, after the earth is scorched, new growth begins.

[Shockandawe]

Hi Puzzled

My Father also went through a MLC and he blew up his own life. He left to live with ow and my mother remarried. He regretted it every day of the rest of his life.
Your h may never tell you because as in my case, my own ex h moved on and remarried. I know explaining to him and telling him how much I regret what happened, however much I want to will cause him more problems as his new marriage is not a happy one. He has small children with his new wife and I will never rock that boat. I caused him so much pain I will never cause him more.
Sometimes it isn’t the best course of action and we MLCers just have to accept we caused this, we made our beds and now we have to lie on them. Too much damage to repair, too embarrassed by what we did. The LBS may have moved on etc., so many reasons as to why but I know in my own case I will always regret what I did and I will always love my ex h.

[Shockandawe]

Hi Shelley

I remember him being so devastated and crushed by this that the guilt overrides anything he said as I know I am fully responsible for the mess.
I only really remember him insisting I go to the doctor as he thought I was going insane.
I remember him talking to my family at the start telling them he thought I was having some kind of breakdown.
As I went deeper in I don’t remember much of my interactions with him other than me trying to avoid him and my indifference towards him.

[Shockandawe]

Hi Mrs smiling

I had to have contact as we had a then young daughter but the more the indifference began to take over the less I cared if there was contact or not. It wouldn’t have bothered me at that time if I never had contact with him again.
It’s the indifference that made me so detached from him, the fact I was so deeply in by then is testament to that.

[Shockandawe]

Hi Couragedheart

In a word no.
MLC is something I couldn’t control. Anything my ex h did or said wouldn’t have stopped me, reduced the time it took or changed a single thing.
Once that switch is flipped there’s no going back, going round or underneath it I had to go through it.
It’s a compulsion and I was driven to do it regardless of what my ex h said or did.
It’s a process and as such I followed the process.

[Shockandawe]

Hi FTT

If my ex h had written to me at that time I would have ripped them up as I simply didn’t care at all about him. At first I hated him but that gave way to total indifference so anything he said was instantly deemed insignificant and pointless.
I’m sorry you’re going through this nightmare and I sympathise greatly with the LBS but understand that at this time your spouses are not who you know and will do the opposite of what they normally would.
I can’t emphasise enough that this is not and was not ever about you. It was and is all about them.
The process needs to be gone through however long it takes.

[Shockandawe]

Hi Mego

During my pockets of clarity I was overwhelmed by guilt.
During these brief moments I would think what the hell are you doing? The guilt would weigh me down and the fog would pull me back. I think it had to as I couldn’t cope at this time and the protection of the fog ensured I wouldn’t go crazy. That’s my opinion of it anyway.

[Shockandawe]

Hi Jackolar

Yes others noticed and would say things like you changed or I didn’t recognise you as you are so different. I took that as a compliment in my fog warped mind. Lol. If they got too probing I would ignore them or avoid them.

[Shockandawe]

Hi Granite

It’s not something physical it’s more like a feeling, kind of like being in a bubble where nothing affects you. Everything outside the bubble is moving at break neck speed but inside the bubble it’s slow. Nothing penetrates so nothing matters. There’s no emotion, no feelings, no positive feelings. It’s a nothingness that lies to you to convince you that you’re feeling this way because you need to change everything about the old you. It’s a crazy bus ride and the compulsion is overwhelming.

[Treasur]

Hi Puzzled

My Father also went through a MLC and he blew up his own life. He left to live with ow and my mother remarried. He regretted it every day of the rest of his life.
Your h may never tell you because as in my case, my own ex h moved on and remarried. I know explaining to him and telling him how much I regret what happened, however much I want to will cause him more problems as his new marriage is not a happy one. He has small children with his new wife and I will never rock that boat. I caused him so much pain I will never cause him more.
Sometimes it isn’t the best course of action and we MLCers just have to accept we caused this, we made our beds and now we have to lie on them. Too much damage to repair, too embarrassed by what we did. The LBS may have moved on etc., so many reasons as to why but I know in my own case I will always regret what I did and I will always love my ex h.

Dear ShockSis
I feel as if i am tiptoeing into tricky ground so I want to preface what I say with a few caveats. That I respect and admire your courage and your wish to help others here, as well as support your own sister. That I respect your decisions about your own life and have no wish to change them bc they belong to you. That this stuff is hard. That I am sure it is far from easy to witness your sister's pain knowing that you inflicted similar pain on others. That you do not want to hurt anyone else and are very aware of not being selfish in what you do. And that you know your xh's life is currently not a bed of roses and there are children involved.

I want to give you the 'gift' in return I suppose of talking about deep healing from an LBS perspective. What, if anything, you do with that gift is your business.

I want to say something about healing though. Not reconciliation but healing.

Even with what you know now, even with witnessing your sister's pain, there are probably things about how your xh experienced this trauma in his own life and how the wounds changed him that you may not know. Just as we can read your honest heartfelt words but still never quite know how it felt to be you in the fog.

As an LBS, way beyond the issue of the marriage, the experience can leave us feeling as if we are nothing, as if our life was nothing, as if our past was nothing, as if everything we believed about ourselves and the world was nothing. That we are worthless, powerless and don't matter. Your crisis behaviour sent that message over and over again to your xh for probably 3-5 years. And your xh had no voice that was heard by you or probably by others in RL who couldn't get it. And he probably didn't have an HS gang or his own version of a ShockSis to help and support him and hear him. We may rebuild the broken jigsaw and we may keep reminding ourselves that it wasn't us...but it is a primal wound. And like most wounds, it needs time, care, light and air to really heal.

It is hard to make good choices for ourselves when we still carry some of that wound. Perhaps that led your xh to make an unwise choice about his current marriage. Perhaps it is making it harder for him to also address the issues in his life now and make a stronger life and marriage. Perhaps he is dealing with his own residue just as you are dealing with yours.

Imho....putting to one side completely the issue of anybody's marriage, current or past or future...there is a bit of healing that can only be done by seeing and hearing and telling the truth with compassion. And many people never get the opportunity to do that. What any individual does with that healing is their own responsibility. But there is a redemption in healing after trauma, maybe for both LBS and MLCer, which I honestly believe can only leave individuals feeling stronger and healthier and able to make better lives after it. It may need professional third party support bc that kind of healing work is hard and feels risky to do. That perhaps healing is less about what we say and more about how we listen.

But I honestly believe that healing from trauma is a goal worth focusing on regardless of what else is going on at the time, that it is an opportunity for a kind of real and deep redemption and peace. Way beyond marriages past and present...it isn't about the marriages, it's about the humans.

As I say, I respect your right to do or not do as you see best and I can hear that your intentions are driven by love and a sense of responsibility towards your xh.

I just wanted to say as honestly as I can that it is as hard for you to really feel the guts of the LBS wounds as it is for us to really feel the guts of the MLC wounds. And that I believe rightly or wrongly that deep wounds need light and air to heal.

[Milly]

Treasur, what a strong post. I agree with everything you said.

Shocksis, I appreciate so much how you come here and try to answer as many of our questions as possible. You are helping us tremendously because our spouses have basically annihilated us and we have no idea why.

As an LBS, I don't think I'll ever heal from BD. I may learn to live with it, but I will always feel that my past was nothing unless my H told me it was something. That would give me the whole central part of my life back. That would help me personally accept what happened and give me back my memories.

If I could have a letter from my H telling me he made a mistake, regretted the pain he caused me, even if he can't come back to me, I would be in a much better place. You see, it's this wondering if my H never loved me, or maybe he does care deep inside and is scared to tell me, that keeps me hanging, waiting, probably wasting time. No amount of people can tell me to move on, focus on myself, take my sight off my H, because I'm always going to be left wondering what happened. Some answers from my H would really help me heal.

[Treasur]

Is it about answers or explanations for you, Milly, or being heard and acknowledged in some way? Or both?

I have accepted that not all of my memories are contingent on my xh. And some are bc some are about his half of our life or contribution to it, and about information I did not and do not have. This experience leaves a lot of missing conversations and a lot of unfinished business and patches of doubt perhaps.

I'm not sure that knowing he regretted his choices would help me much now. I am not standing and I would never probably feel safe enough with him to allow him back in my life in any real way, much as I love the person who used to be my h.  I think some acknowledgement of his bits of our life that were closer to how I remember them would help if that was the truth,  some sense of having valued or valuing some of it and some of me and some recognition of our friends and family's love for him. That would be gracious. Maybe some insight on what I became to him in his head from what I used to be that he could justify inflicting the kind of devastation on my life that he did and be ok with it or see it as being what I deserved from him.

Maybe most though for me would feeling that even belatedly my thoughts and feelings about our marriage and our life mattered enough to be heard even if he disagreed or had a different POV.

I have no expectation of that ever happening in my situation. Seems more likely that Santa Claus is real tbh and it seems so futile to ask any active MLCer for anything you need  But if it did, some kind of compassionate acknowledgement and some show of remorse for the effects of his choices even if he is content to have ended up where he is, would heal some small bits of the wound that I am not sure will ever heal on their own. And that may be something I just have to live with as I can't make anyone else do anything at all.

[Nerissa]

As an LBS, I don't think I'll ever heal from BD. I may learn to live with it, but I will always feel that my past was nothing unless my H told me it was something. That would give me the whole central part of my life back. That would help me personally accept what happened and give me back my memories.


I’m thinking about this.  And I think you are asking for something that might not give you what you think.  I don’t know though.  I have had something akin to this.  H saying ‘I think she thinks it wasn’t ever real’ (implying the opposite was true) and telling me recently by phone that he cannot imagine what his actions did to me and felt like to me. 

What do I feel?  Perhaps a kind of satisfaction that he is showing some discomfort and contrition. Some acknowledgement that his behaviour was wrong.

Anyone who marries for
Any significant time
has an experience that is real and vital.  I can see aspects of my H’s character that led us here, but I don’t doubt that his feelings were real.  They came with some immaturity; egocentricity etc that might mean his love wasn’t durable and was feelings oriented, but I know it was real for him as he understood love to be.  I also know he intended it it last but issues got  in the way.  I should think this is true for the majority of mlc spouses.

Where I’d guess your ‘work’ lies is in a place similar to mine Milly.  By overvaluing our H’s opinions and undervaluing our own, we are relying on them to make real and valuable our own experience of the marriage.  And they can’t do that.  Only we can.  My musings lead me to think that when I have thought an apology from H would help, it is because somewhere inside, probably unconsciously, is an implicit belief that such an apology will be followed by a wish from H to start over again with me.

I’m not dissing the idea of apology, but I’m questioning the value of an apology to validate the value of a marriage .  I believe  that my marriage and my part in it was valuable and valued and I came to that conclusion before receiving an apology.  I ascertain it’s value to me and my contribution to it, not H.  I have no doubt your marriage was a valuable one and you a valuable partner.  You still are that person and perhaps are better than ever. 

This is a self esteem thing and we need to find a way to it, however haltingly.

[Nerissa]

Gosh I said ‘valuable’ a lot in that post but I can’t be bothered to edit it.

[Treasur]

Ah but 'valuable' is the heart of what we're talking about isn't it? 

[Tyks]

I don't think I will ever heal from bd either but through much work and determination I now realize that I am valuable as a person. I do not need my h to help me with that anymore. However, in the beginning I certainly needed those answers and validation which I never got with my vanisher. I now realize that my worth is not based on an opinion of another and that my xh's choices were his own to make.  It is so true when everyone here tells us that it is not about us or our marriage. It takes a long time to get to the point of believing that because how could it not be about us or the marriage.

I recently went to my IC for a tune up. He also saw my xh for three appointments three years ago. He explained to me that my xh lives for the moment and whether he is happy or not he stuffs it and then the unhappiness leads to resentment towards me even though I had no idea he was stuffing unhappiness! So my question to him was well why would my xh just move himself right to another "situation?". The IC answer was because my xh will never do the work and will never look within to figure out why he is unhappy he will ride this next wave and the resentment will build and build for however long until he decides that it is up to our own selves to find our happy.

So my IC says similar words to what we hear on HS time and time again. And shock's sis is here telling us again. It is not about us or the marriage. I appreciate you taking the time shock's sis to answer the questions everyone has and it is probably therapeutic in a way for you to be able to tell so many others what it is like BC you can't tell your xh.

[hopeandfaith]

Hi Puzzled

I know explaining to him and telling him how much I regret what happened, however much I want to will cause him more problems as his new marriage is not a happy one This is a judgement call that you are making on his behalf. He has small children with his new wife and I will never rock that boat. I caused him so much pain I will never cause him more. You cannot predict what will cause him more pain - knowing vs not knowing.
Sometimes it isn’t the best course of action and we MLCers just have to accept we caused this, we made our beds and now we have to lie on them. Too much damage to repair, too embarrassed by what we did. The LBS may have moved on etc., so many reasons as to why but I know in my own case I will always regret what I did and I will always love my ex h.

Shocksis, I want to show you the respect of being very honest with you about how much of a trigger it is to hear you say that you made your bed and now you need to lie in it.  Your MLC was a decision about your H's life that he didn't get to weigh in on.  Now you are effectively doing the same thing again.  I understand that you do not want to cause him more pain so how would you feel about asking him if he wants any questions answered about that time?  He may very well wish to put it behind him.  He may even be angry at you for digging up old wounds and sending his life spiralling into chaos for nothing.  Can you hear that from him?  Can you let him decide what he wants?

[Treasur]

I think we are all saying something a bit similar, aren't we?
That truthfully the only person who knows what he needs to heal further, or indeed if he wants to do that, is shockSis's xh...not us, and tbh not maybe ShockSis either. Or indeed how and why he might want it, or when, or what it would give him that is useful.

That the water is muddied by her own fears, guilt, love and caution. Understandably. But there is a kind of 'control' in the assumptions we make about what others need so we wanted ShockSis to have some extra information to add to her pot? So sometimes the easiest thing to do is ask and let the other person choose for themselves? That it is an act of respect. Recognising that this is a tender spot for LBS bc we rarely got much choice or were asked what we needed in this experience.

[FromAbroad]

Is it about answers or explanations for you, Milly, or being heard and acknowledged in some way? Or both?

Good question.
For me it's about being acknowledged. Do I need the answers to everything that has happened. Maybe I do, but I think my xW nor I will ever have the answers. One day she will probably realise it was an internal struggle and had nothing to do with me. But she will still not be able to give answers to all the horrible things that have happened and why she choose to do so. And I even think I am no longer looking for those answers.

What I hope to get one day is indeed acknowledgement. I just want her to sit down one day and to ask me how it has been for me. How did it feel for me. Just listening to me without interrupting or making excuses. To just listen. I don't need excuses for all the horrible things, because basicly how can one make apologies for those things. But just an excuse telling me she indeed did love me and she is sorry for making me feel like I am nothing, that she is sorry for making me feel the way I did (and still do). That would be sufficient.

And to be honest I think she wants the same. And I do want to listen to her, without judgement, without anger, but also without the MLC mind. I want this for a long time allready, but sadly she still is deep in MLC.

For me it isn't about reconcilliation anymore. But I sure like to talk to her one day, the real one that is, and just talk and listen to eachother.

[Shockandawe]

Thank you all for your words but I have made my decision on this and will not be moved from it.
If my ex h were to ask me anything about my MLC of course I would answer truthfully but I will not bring it up no matter how much I have thought about it. To say it would give him some answers I have no doubt it would but would it also be to salve my own conscience?
He is married and has small children. We get on ok now and I see no reason to throw the curve ball so to speak. If he needs me to tell him he will ask. He never has and I will not rock the boat.
I will know when the time is right. It is my decision and I will not change it. This has been discussed on here many times and every time it is brought up I say the same thing.
Please respect my reasoning and decision on this.

[1trouble]

SS

I read this thread today and I couldn't comment on it at the time,

Of course I understand the hurt of an LBS BUT I would urge those who have said why they feel this its important for SS to talk to her H to look at the reasons you have given.

There has been mention of feeling that their whole marriage was a lie (sorry that may not be accurate paraphrasing but that's the way I interpreted it) and also triggers....BUT IMO and my experience you have to own your own feelings, thoughts and triggers and look into why you feel that way.

Don't get me wrong I can completely understand the hurt pain and devastation and the fleeting thoughts that maybe it was us that had it all wrong BUT our reactions are ours to own and you have to ask why you are now trying to rewrite your history? and why you have these triggers?

We can let an experience destroy us or we can learn and move forward.
We can define our worth through another or know our worth.

We are on a site for people in crisis, we can decide whether we make someone elses crisis be our own crisis or whether we are going to ensure we are not going to be defined by what has happened and stay in a state of shock and inertia and blame it on what happened to us.

I don't mean this to be harsh but it really is that simple (not in the beginning but as time goes on)

because we are in charge of our thoughts and we are in charge of our lives.

I think what Nerissa said was very powerful

I have said before and I will say again, I respect SS for the decision she has made, I completely understand it in the context of everything she has shared BUT even if I didn't then its her life and she knows her H far more than we do AND I really appreciate everything she shares.

And IMO (not that it matters to her) she is being selfless and respectful to her H...….

[Treasur]

Thank you all for your words but I have made my decision on this and will not be moved from it.
If my ex h were to ask me anything about my MLC of course I would answer truthfully but I will not bring it up no matter how much I have thought about it. To say it would give him some answers I have no doubt it would but would it also be to salve my own conscience?
He is married and has small children. We get on ok now and I see no reason to throw the curve ball so to speak. If he needs me to tell him he will ask. He never has and I will not rock the boat.
I will know when the time is right. It is my decision and I will not change it. This has been discussed on here many times and every time it is brought up I say the same thing.
Please respect my reasoning and decision on this.

Shock Sis, i hear you, understand and respect that bc your xh has not asked, unlike some of us perhaps, your way of loving him now is to not rock the boat for selfish reasons. Thank you for explaining a little more about the context for your choice and of course we respect that it is yours to make.

IT...that was an unusually strong kind of message from you. I agree with much of what you say. Yet I am obviously a failure at this. Why? I simply cannot reconcile the eyes of the h I knew who I know loved me with the reality that the man with the same face wished I would be burnt to death. Whatever it takes to bridge that gap, I simply haven't found it yet. It may seem simple to you, but it is beyond me.  No amount of 'owning' anything changes that and tbh it seems quite reasonable and sane to me that I still find it completely inexplicable to reconcile with our/my history as I recall it hence the moments of doubt. It remains a very messy thing to live with and it would be a gift to ever hear some kind of explanation for it from the person who actually owns it. Bc I had a normal life and so much of this s$it is not normal, not even close. It would be nice to feel that my doubt is respected given the black hole that my h vanished into bc it is my reality even if it is not the same for others.

[1trouble]

IT...that was an unusually strong kind of message from you. I agree with much of what you say. Yet I am obviously a failure at this. Why? I simply cannot reconcile the eyes of the h I knew who I know loved me with the reality that the man with the same face wished I would be burnt to death. Whatever it takes to bridge that gap, I simply haven't found it yet. It may seem simple to you, but it is beyond me as yet. No amount of 'owning' anything changes that and tbh it seems quite reasonable and sane to me that I still find it completely inexplicable to reconcile with our/my history as I recall it. So it remains a very messy thing to live with and it would be a gift to ever hear some kind of explanation for it from the person who actually owns it.

Treasur

I am sorry you saw it as a strong message, It wasn't meant that way.

Let me explain....you said in an earlier message you were giving SS a 'gift' but IMO you were not (maybe unintentionally) I felt you were trying to guilt her into talking to her H

But part of the reason IMO is because you are struggling to reconcile the H that was to the person he is ATM...

Now that is not a failure on your part and why I highlighted that part of your post is because this is something I was trying to say.

You have mentioned NLP before and its these emotive words that maybe are holding you back...you are NOT a failure but if you see yourself as one then you will be.

I know how tempting it is to go down the path of trying to make the person who "is" now 'fit'  in our heads BUT we then do that by doubting ourselves, by 'owning' the problem, by saying we must have missed something, maybe they were always this way and 'we' didn't see it, its not helpful (again imo)

Its mentioned over and over again on here and has been throughout the years of wanting to have 'that conversation' with our MLC'ers, but what does that really achieve?

Does it make us feel better about whats happened? I doubt it (again my opinion)

Will it change things, no it doesn't, because our lives will never be the same...…

What our MLC'ers say or don't say does not negate what we had, that's what I am saying

I cant tell you what bridges the gap, but I would start with trying to find out what you know

You had a very long loving relationship with him
I have no doubt he was a loving giving man that made you feel special and loved
He then had a very depressive mental health episode that sent him into crisis and meant he made some very bad
decisions AND you have read what others who have been in crisis have said including SS and can see how that distorts thinking

NOW I know that is something that is so hard to reconcile and that is the battle we as LBS's face

BUT we can help to banish those awful negative voices in our heads which can lead us to rewrite history and can put ourselves down
and that's what I was saying, it starts with understanding how we think and challenging those negative thoughts

[Treasur]

It really wasn't my intention to guilt ShockSis into anything at all, hence all my caveats at the front end of my post. But I do think it may be as difficult for MLCers to see the world of the LBS as vice versa and we all filter our lens. So my intention was simply to share that for ShockSis to use or not as she saw fit.

My 'obviously a failure' comment tbh was a bit snarky bc I felt rather chastised by your 'it's simple...just own your feelings and pull your socks up' flavour as I read it. Sorry...my skin is thinner this week. Not your normal style so much more likely to be in my interpretation.

I honestly don't feel that there is really much at all that my xh could say or do. I long ago swallowed the likely reality that I shall never hear his voice again and that was hard enough. I am missing his face this week, that's all. But I hear what you say and I will keep trying to hold on to my own history as you say.

[xyzcf]

It remains a very messy thing to live with and it would be a gift to ever hear some kind of explanation for it from the person who actually owns it. Bc I had a normal life and so much of this s$it is not normal, not even close. It would be nice to feel that my doubt is respected given the black hole that my h vanished into bc it is my reality even if it is not the same for others.

And what if he/she cannot give an explanation? Many former MLCers have written that they do not remember some of what they did. We talk about "fog", we debate whether they are aware or intentional in what they are doing, all the while recognizing that something went very wrong with the person who had never shown such behavior in the decades we knew them.

A friend of mine, who remarried the MLCer, in therapy was asked to make a list of questions she had to have an answer to. Their therapist advised her to ask these questions once and once he had responded to her satisfaction, to put them aside and focus on creating their new marriage.

There are so many things that happen in life that there are not any answers for..sometimes all we can do is accept it for what is now.

An apology will never make up for the last 10 years of my life...what words could possibly matter?

I know what happened, I know who we were before and I know who I have become.

Some may need some kind of answer..I see him as having some kind of clinical breakdown..that may or may not ever enable him to "give me the apology I deserve".....

I feel SS is right to leave him alone to his new family. By doing what some of you are asking her to do, she could create more pain for her ex spouse...as she said, if he were to ask her, she would respond but she respects his need for the life he has built now.

[megogirl]

I feel SS is right to leave him alone to his new family. By doing what some of you are asking her to do, she could create more pain for her ex spouse...as she said, if he were to ask her, she would respond but she respects his need for the life he has built now.

YES

Personally, I think it would be a pretty selfish act for her to seek out her XH.  Why should she intentionally rock the boat?

[1trouble]

Treasur.

As you know my my MLC'er said a 6-7 weeks ago that OW as not fit to lick my boots

It changed nothing, because I already knew that anyway, not because I am arrogant, I am the least arrogant person you will meet, BUT because I know, because of what my MLC'er had shown me in all the years we were together BEFORE crisis that's how he felt, he made me feel loved and he made me feel special, I am sure you also could wear that crown

NOW I also knew and know that the OW was not someone who could hold a candle to me, morally, spiritually, intellectually, personality wise etc etc....

AND I am sure you do too.....
I know the 'real' him would not have looked at this person twice OR would have given her the time of day, she maybe the same age as him BUT she is vacuous, materialistic, selfish, stupid etc etc.
I am sure you know that too...…

They are the things I remind myself about....

NOW we ALL have little voices in our heads that can destroy reality, can put ourselves down, can make us doubt what we know

BUT can give into these destructive thoughts OR we can stop them before they take hold

When I say its simple, its not it takes practise (like trying to develop a toned stomach or arms) it takes time and dedication BUT what we do is as soon as we start down the road of doubt you just STOP and play music, phone a friend, jump up and down, sing la la la la, or just say NO...anything but you stop that thought.

You know NLP this is neuroplasticity....

Its what I was saying  a while back about 'emotional bombfires' if we constantly build them by reminding ourselves of everything we have been through we reinforce the thoughts and emotions in our brain and we relive it all over and over again, so we have to stop that

I just had a birthday no contact from my MLC'er, I had all sorts of anniversaires that I wont list because of the above BUT I have learnt to control not letting my brain 'go there' because to 'go there' is the way of sadness and misery and its happened and I survived and thats the way I want to process it....as I said it takes a huge amount of practise and time and learning about the 'voices' in my head

[Thunder]

I agree with xyzcf,

I guess after reading so much about MLC, I honestly don't need answers from him.
He went into a crazy crisis and his thinking was all screwed up.  So I have no questions about that.  Why did he do what he did?  Because he was in a crazy crisis.  There was no logical thinking going on upstairs.

Now a sincere apology would be nice, just to know he realizes how much this hurt me.
An acknowledgement that he sees it was not me and that I did nothing wrong.

But I guess personally that is all I'd like to hear that would help, and I think it would be for a lot of LBS's.

SS I think you are right, you will know if there is ever a time when it is right to talk to him.  I respect the heck out of that.  I feel you are being very respectful of him and his current family.

[megogirl]

An acknowledgement that he sees it was not me and that I did nothing wrong

THAT

That, and I'd also pick his brain about WHAT MLC WAS LIKE.  We've all hit ShockSis with our barrage of questions.....but I know I would have a thousand more.  And to hear it straight from the horse's mouth?  It would be like having a real-life ShockSis right in my living room!

I swear if talk shows still existed, MLC would be a perfect topic.....

[xyzcf]

In thinking more about this I was thinking about an alcoholic or a drug addict. I know that AA has 12 steps and I think one of them is making it right with those they have hurt.

I think perhaps the thinking is that for them to heal, they need to be able to do that....so is it for their healing or ours?

I don't know the answer.

He's never said he was sorry, for a long time I wanted that but it really makes no difference now. It wouldn't change anything for me.

He is and has done what he is...and he will live with that.

[rosetintedglasses]

I get what Treasur/Milky etc were saying that ShocksSis’ XH would probably heal a bit more if he heard what shocksis wants to say, and that in turn could help him with his new family as he would be a less broken man. We are taught not to bring up relationship talks so if he was an LBS from here he would probably never ask and wait on his MLCer Shocksis who, very interestingly, is waiting on him asking.

Personally I too respect your decision Shocksis, I think the reason it came back up is because us LBSers would almost give our right arm to hear what you have to say from our MLCers. It’s closure.

(The clarity you have at remembering and explaining your time in MLC is really precious, thank you from the bottom of our hearts 🥰)
Rose 🌹

[OffRoad]

A genuine apology from my MLCER for the hurt that he caused everyone, for the lies he told about me and for mean spirited things he said would make me feel like he was going to be ok. No amount of his being "nice" or "happy" or conversational would convince me he wasn't still screwed up, because non screwed up people apologize when they have done something that hurts another once they realize they have hurt them.

I'd like to know he understood that life is not all about him and that wherever he ended up going forward, he would be ok because he was now in a place he could feel again. Because I can't help but be concerned for his mental well being.

I'm not capable of being married to someone for so long, watching them blow themselves up, and not caring how they really are just because they are now being "nice" to me.  To each, their own.

[Granite]

Hi SS and thanks for your reply.

I think I worded my question poorly as what I am curious about is if today you feel or know of any long term benefits your crisis gave you?  Did it lead to any personal growth, resolve any traumas or issues, help you become stronger in some way?  For example let’s say pre-crisis a person has a hard time being alone, but after emerging from the crisis they are more comfortable with their own company.

[WAWP]

Hi Shocks Sis

It's been a long while since I've posted here, but I wanted to thank you from the bottom of my heart for your contribution to this forum, and your contribution the world actually!! Insights like yours are few and far between and is so needed for the LBS and affected families to attempt to understand their MLCers behaviour. Your input is sorely needed!!
I'm finding your explanations downright fascinating. It's just bizarre how a combination of adverse events earlier in life can cause such massive shift in personality later on.

I have done much research since my xW dropped the bomb, and there are many similarities you describe in your behaviour that I see in her behaviour, and you both line up with the currently accepted "understanding" of MLC.

BTW, I think your decision to leave your xH alone is wise and right. If he needs closure that much, he will contact you.

I really look forward to your future posts, and thank you once again.

WAWP

[Treasur]

I get what Treasur/Milky etc were saying that ShocksSis’ XH would probably heal a bit more if he heard what shocksis wants to say, and that in turn could help him with his new family as he would be a less broken man. We are taught not to bring up relationship talks so if he was an LBS from here he would probably never ask and wait on his MLCer Shocksis who, very interestingly, is waiting on him asking.

Personally I too respect your decision Shocksis, I think the reason it came back up is because us LBSers would almost give our right arm to hear what you have to say from our MLCers. It’s closure.

(The clarity you have at remembering and explaining your time in MLC is really precious, thank you from the bottom of our hearts 🥰)
Rose 🌹

I have thought about this overnight and Rose has said exactly what I meant.
In validating ShockSis and her own choices, i do not want to invalidate my own POV just bc it is different.

Acknowledgement is the key missing bit for me as an LBS. Not an apology or a confirmation of my memories or my self-worth, simply an acknowledgment that my xh did bad things and takes some emotional accountability for the damage and pain he caused. Hearing that would be healing for me. It would be healing for many of his old friends too tbh. I will never believe he is healthy until he does bc that is what normal healthy people whose actions create big damage to others do.
And tbh I am not sure it is the job of the victim to ask for remorse or validation after years of emotional abuse and indifference. I think a fully healthy post crisis person would have the humility to see that...and until they heal sufficiently to want to make some kind of amends even in a small way it is a waste of time to even ask. Understanding and accepting the reality of someone else's crisis is not the same as excusing the behaviour or diminishing the damage.

There is a danger of confusing apples and pears.

I believe that true healing needs the acknowledgment of damage caused and compassion for those damaged by ones actions and compassion for the person who did the damage. Everyone involved gets to make their own choice about that. Apples.

I believe that as LBS we get to own the responsibility of how we heal independently, and the kind of negative thinking that hinders us as well as the thoughts and actions that help us move forward. Which sometimes means being very careful to not gaslight ourselves into denying how we feel or what is normal. Pears.

I respect ShockSis's judgment about her own situation.
I also respect that as a victim of abuse, I see it differently.
Both are valid imho.

[rosetintedglasses]

Oops! Milky was typed as Milly and changed without me noticing! Apologies thought I better point out that I did in fact use your correct name Milly or so I thought! Ha ha what am I like.

Milly Milly Milly - hope that undoes it! Xx

[Keep believing]

I was thinking , wondering ,  if the difference of opinion here is that 1trouble has heard the words from her mlc that he apologizes, ow is no good and so on that it makes it easier to stand in the position she is in . Compared to the ones who have heard nothing like 1t has heard from her mlcer. Some of us have heard nothing , nothing to help us heal from the mlcers pov. I think if many of us heard what 1t has heard , well it might just help us all. even though we all know this is not our fault, that the mlcer makes it up to be , it would still be nice to hear from the mlcer himself. When someone tears you down so much , it takes time to heal , a long time. But if the one who tore you down were to tell you , it was all my fault and your are really a good person , the healing would not take half as long.
My h said almost 2 years ago that he hated what he had done to me and the kids. Sure it made me feel good. He said you know that is not me.   Some sort of admittance that he was wrong.   Sad to say he is still a mess.

[Treasur]

That seems a very fair point, kb.
The experiences that we have individually influence what we need to heal I suppose. And how we go about doing that. It is probably also one of the reasons why the window that ShockSis provides into the mysterious world of MLC is so much appreciated by so many of us here even if we know that her POV now is not necessarily a direct window into our own MLCers head?

[Jackolar12]

I spoke to a recovered MLC man after a decade long crisis. He tried to apologise to his former wife but she wouldn’t even see him so you never know how an LBS will react, He’s with a different woman now but has many regrets. I suppose once the innocence of love has been broken it’s never quite the same for either party.

[Thunder]

Jackolar,

I believe you are absolutely right.  Most relationships are changed after this.

[Not Applicable]

As I understood it, what 1T is saying is that if you are questioning your marriage pre-BD, that's your own issue to deal with, not the MLCer's. If you don't know if it was real when it seemed real before, well, that's all a matter of your own perception.

That's different IMO from getting an explanation or remorse from the MLCer for what happened during MLC though.

[megogirl]

I suppose once the innocence of love has been broken it’s never quite the same for either party.

How could it?  It's something that I struggle with, every day.  Because I don't believe that innocence can ever be recaptured.

'Tis why I am so impressed by people like RCR, who was somehow able to pull off her re-build/reconciliation.

[Sam I Am]

I agree that it won't be the same.  That innocence is gone.  The blind trust is gone.  It doesn't matter if it is with the MLCer or someone else....POOF....all gone!

I believe to that I don't want to go back to the old marriage.  As good as it was, it can always be better.  Somethings was broken that didn't let my H come and talk to me.  I can see some things now that I didn't see before.  Things that could have been overcome easily if it was discussed.

I believe that we need to grow and mature and learn to forgive and get past some things.  Our spouses must also "grow up" and then and only then can we both sit down and discuss what the future could potentially be.

They are also not going to have the same easiness that was there before.  They have to overcome fears and trepidations and other emotions that led to their betrayal so that it never happens again.

Can it be better?....I do believe it is possible but I am a hopeless optimist.  It will take both people working towards a common goal and putting egos aside.  In order to put those egos aside, we need to grow into ourselves and have confidence. 

Confidence is a must (IMO) and there is fine line between being confident and being arrogant that can't be crossed.  We must believe in ourselves but not to the point where we think the MLCer is indebted to us because of their mistakes.  They owe us nothing!  We owe them nothing!  We both must be confident we are worthy people and let the ego's at the door along with the past once it is settled!

[xyzcf]

Can it be better?....I do believe it is possible but I am a hopeless optimist.

The people I know who have reconciled have said it is better. Perhaps because the rose colored glasses are off but they have all expressed to me that even those whose marriages were regarded as "good" before, they are much better now.

The MLCer has to heal something inside of them, something dark and deep that has been there before we knew them. With this healing, comes a more healthy and complete person so it makes sense that it could go very well IF the 2 ever find their way back to one another.

But then I too am a hopeless optimist.

[Slow Fade]

 

We must believe in ourselves but not to the point where we think the MLCer is indebted to us because of their mistakes.  They owe us nothing!  We owe them nothing!  We both must be confident we are worthy people and let the ego's at the door along with the past once it is settled!

Totally agree with this.

Perhaps because the rose colored glasses are off

  This too. When that happens you can get down and do the real work of reconciliation and marriage........ brutal honesty, reality, not being afraid to talk about anything. Its empowering.

[Mortesbride]

We must believe in ourselves but not to the point where we think the MLCer is indebted to us because of their mistakes.  They owe us nothing!  We owe them nothing!  We both must be confident we are worthy people and let the ego's at the door along with the past once it is settled!

Our spouse and MLCer is indebted to us. They have caused a grievous wound that can not be easily healed. We must sort through our lives and they will forever be changed because of something they did. It is our choice to wallow in it our heal and get stronger. But they do owe us. They owe a sort of primal debt that can never truly be paid. And that is the point of the issue isn't?

How do you heal such a wound, when the person you loved most is the one who held the knife? Some people will never heal from it. Some people will heal and move on. Some people will pretend to move on, but still cry in the shower when they are alone.

The MLCer do owe something. But it is a debt that can never be paid. No amount of words, or grovelling, or acts of contrition can make the scar go away.

It is ours for life.

We can accept it and wear it proudly, or we can hide it with shame and grief. Either way it is there and always will be.

[Thunder]

Interesting question , Mort.

"Our spouse and MLCer is indebted to us. They have caused a grievous wound that can not be easily healed.  We must sort through our lives and they will forever be changed because of something they did. It is our choice to wallow in it our heal and get stronger. But they do owe us. They owe a sort of primal debt that can never truly be paid. And that is the point of the issue isn't? "

SS may I ask what you think of this?  Do you agree with this, or no?  Part of me agrees and part of me doesn't.
I'd love to get your input, as a former MLCer. 

[Shockandawe]

Interesting question I actually don’t agree because I truly believe the MLCer as I was is suffering from some kind of mental breakdown. I wish it was recognised medically because I know I wasn’t in my right mind my normal frame of mind when I exploded my life.
Who in their right mind chooses to cause devastation, deep, deep hurt without feeling the consequences of it at the time. This should tell you something about the condition of the MLCers mind.
The primary reason for MLC as I see it is a desperate escape from long buried issues never dealt with and depression, feeling weak and useless, questioning why am I here, what am I doing etc as this is too much to deal with and I felt like I was hanging onto my sanity by a thread then along comes the rescuer, the fantasy and the fog. The promise of a better life, a way to forget and this unfortunately includes the previous way of living, the LBS, the family, the marriage. The fog itself creates this new fantasy reality and is an oxymoron because although it causes intense pain for the LBS it saved me from a mental asylum.
It’s only as I came out of the fog I had and still have a deep regret and see the consequences of my actions. During the fog I had no choice but to go into it and follow the path. During this time I know the real me was healing and stayed hidden below until I could face the issues which had led me into MLC in the first place. The horrible other persona is the one everyone sees and this is the protector of the real person. The one unable to cope is like a wounded animal, this is why I believe MLCers become the total opposite of the people you know because they have to to survive. I know it’s not all fun and games for the MLCer although to the LBSer they see the couldn’t care less, carefree attitude as time progresses however it gets far more difficult and a battle ensues which MLCers can’t win because eventually I had to face it. The time factor is different for each person as some are better at constantly blocking out thoughts of their former life. Don’t ever think we don’t think about our former lives because we do and depending on how far you through the fog you are you either block it or start becoming ready to deal with reality.
I personally don’t feel I owe my ex h an apology for the fact I wasn’t capable of controlling my own mind though I feel deeply sorry for what happened there is a difference. Ultimately I didn’t have control of entering MLC, it just happens to some people at certain times in their lives.
I do hope this helps in some way to understand that the MLCer is no more responsible for this than a random lightning bolt hitting your house.
I still stand by my thoughts that MLCers should not ever be allowed to sign legal papers etc.

[Cherry Blossom]

Hi Shocks Sis

I've been digesting all of your threads and wanted to say thank you so much for sharing your journey - it's helping me understand this more and helping me detach from my MLC-er

I'm on my second MLC-er and I don't know if it's relevant but I wanted to ask you if you had experienced these two events.  My W had a sort of episode possibly up to 12 months prior to BD where she was panicking about me dying and her parents dying.  She was almost inconsolable with her crying and I can still clearly see the panic in her face - she was so scared.  About 6 months ago my wife had drunk quite a lot of wine but not too much for her and she was violently sick.  My ex H also had the same experience.  He was sobbing uncontrollably about the loss of his grandmother - wailed like a wounded animal - and also had the violent sickness approx 6 months later.  Looking back it almost seems like this could be the starting to be sucked into the tunnel.  Would be good to have your take on this and whether you also experienced this.

Thanks

[Nas]

Sorry, but I’ve never heard another former MLCer say they don’t owe their LBS and family an apology. I honestly don’t know what to make of that statement.

[Shockandawe]

Nas

An apology for what happened yes but an apology for doing what I did when I was compelled to do it and not fully in control of myself as I knew myself is something I find hard to understand.
It’s like asking someone to apologise for having a breakdown, for someone to apologise for something out of their control.
I know what I have said is controversial but it’s what I believe.
Apology for what happened of course but apology for why it happened no. Apology for the hurt and devastation yes but apology for the reason for it no.
Do I apologise for going through MLC? Is this what you’re expecting?
I had no control over going through MLC yet I am expected to apologise for that?
As I said there’s a difference between apologising for the hurt and devastation and apologising for something I had no control over. You see it with a clear and uncluttered place of clarity of mind. When in MLC the opposite is true I had no clarity of mind and I became another person. I know it’s hard to grasp what I am trying to say but the apology for hurting others is a given the apology for why I did it isn’t.

[megogirl]

I had no control over going through MLC yet I am expected to apologise for that?

I get that, SS

I believe MLC to be like any other mental health issue.  I know it's not a clinical one, but I just don't see why it isn't classified that way.

Don't ever feel obligated to apologize to anyone.....ever.

[terra]

My first husband divorced me pretty hideously/abusively and without justification. During custody evaluation I tried to point out the crazy but the court appointed psychologist wasn’t having any of it, and instead labeled me problematic and required me to attend almost a year of expensive corrective therapy, or else, zero custody.

That was crazy too. No choice: I went to therapy. On top of the therapy I was already in.

A year later, same psychologist walked back EVERYTHING in the initial recommendation, because xh had been involuntarily hospitalized twice, and was found to be suffering from now clinically diagnosed mental illness that features psychotic episodes.

So I get it — apologies for what was done. I’ve said lately that I can’t apologize for not knowing what I didn’t know, and I kind of think same applies for MLC. I understand that some of the internal state is completely hair-raising and also that FOO issues are painful almost to the point of completely breaking the mind, on top of the heart. I won’t mind if there is no apology for having the MLC. Remorse for damages, that would be a kindness.

I wish it all were over, for all of us stuck in the eye of it now. I hope that it ends, and I have hope that it does. Whatever is on the other side, though, by the time we get there, I feel like I will probably have forgotten most of what hurt.

Thank you as always Shocks sis; I guess this is just me commenting, I don’t really have a question today.

[megogirl]

by the time we get there, I feel like I will probably have forgotten most of what hurt.

That's what I'm most afraid of. 

Because we can say that we forgive until we're blue in the face....but how can all of these memories NOT come back to haunt?  Slowly and one-by-one.... much like the holes in dam that SS so often speaks of?

[Standing Strong]

Nas

An apology for what happened yes but an apology for doing what I did when I was compelled to do it and not fully in control of myself as I knew myself is something I find hard to understand.
It’s like asking someone to apologise for having a breakdown, for someone to apologise for something out of their control.
I know what I have said is controversial but it’s what I believe.
Apology for what happened of course but apology for why it happened no. Apology for the hurt and devastation yes but apology for the reason for it no.
Do I apologise for going through MLC? Is this what you’re expecting?
I had no control over going through MLC yet I am expected to apologise for that?
As I said there’s a difference between apologising for the hurt and devastation and apologising for something I had no control over. You see it with a clear and uncluttered place of clarity of mind. When in MLC the opposite is true I had no clarity of mind and I became another person. I know it’s hard to grasp what I am trying to say but the apology for hurting others is a given the apology for why I did it isn’t.

I have a question about this, and I'm not sure if you can answer it (it's ok if you can't)......

So most of the MLC'ers blow up everything, do terrible things, the whole nine yards. Some (a few) are somehow able to not blow everything to smithereens and maintain some rules/values/etc.
Why/how is this? I mean it's obvious the MLC'er is compelled to do things they normally wouldn't do..... but to say there is no choice, I just have a very hard time with that. There is always choice, isn't there?
Instincts may scream for one course of action, but the mind ultimately makes the decision and it knows what's morally right and wrong.

What happens to morality while in MLC? MLC'er don't kill people..... an MLC'er knows that's wrong. What about the other stuff?

-SS

[Anjae]

IMO, as a general rule MLCers own the LBS and often children more than they will ever be ever to replay. 
In my country addiction and alcoholism are considered illnesses and treated as such. Addicts and alcoholics still own to those they cause hurt and damage.

MLCers are legally capable people, therefore responsible. Blowing someone's life up, or worst, as some MLCers do, and think the person does not even deserves an apology is, IMO at least, strange.

MLC involves depression, depression skews the mind.

However, at least in my country, a depressed person remains responsible for their actions unless a psychiatrists has formally declared them not responsible/incapable. Usually a college of psychiatrists and it tends to require telling a court so and getting a legal document to attest said person is not responsible for ther actions.

The same is true to other types of illness, neurological ones, physical ones, an medical expert, or a college of medical experts, will have to offially give the person has not capable/responsible for their actions.

I wish it was recognised medically because I know I wasn’t in my right mind my normal frame of mind when I exploded my life. 

It isn't. Even if it was, it wouldn't do of much aside to provide support to LBS and children. If you read the threads of those whose MLCers went to see a doctor or a therapist you will notice that it made no difference. The MLCer still went ahead and blew their spouse and children lives.

It is not the MLCer that blew their life, both my real life and HS experience tells me that former MLCer tend to come of MLC, be fine and have no real consequences of MLC, the MLCer blew other people's lives and many times left them with lifelong issues of all sorts.

I personally don’t feel I owe my ex h an apology for the fact I wasn’t capable of controlling my own mind though I feel deeply sorry for what happened there is a difference.  

I personally think every MLCer that did what you did own their spouse far more than an apology.

Some MLCers, myself, Ready2, etc. never blew a marriage. hjad OW/OM or did he terriible things many MLCers do, for us, things are a little different, but if in our milder and less deep in the fog MLC we happen to have hurt or cause pain/damage to someone we own that person an apology and maybe even more.

Some MLCers remain in Replay 10., 13, 15 years after BD. They lead perfectably able lives. Mr J is one of those. He has a new woman, not OW because we have been separated for over a decade. He is fine, thank you very much. Making nice money, new woman, fine expensive clothes, etc.


The one thing which he is not fine is when it comes to the way he treats me. He remains mean, monster, nasty, never allowing for all the many pending legal and financial things to get sorted out.


There is nothing in his past life that could explain 13 years of Replay. 

My view of MLC is not connected to childhood issues, it is connected to untreated depression and to people being able to afford to have a MLC. 

Ultimately I didn’t have control of entering MLC, it just happens to some people at certain times in their lives. 

If you didn't had any control of entering MLC, why do you wish it was medically recognised? What difference would had it made?


Mr J was offered professional help more than once, he always refused it. His fantasy is not OW (not anymore, at least), there has been three different women since he left.

It is not even djing and clubbing. He has been saying he is tired of it for at least 5 years, always making sure he gears it up when a new woman comes along and when a new woman comes along he becomes nastier towards me.


Have in mind we live more than 300km apart and, at most, there are a few e-mail of the odd phone call (from me) to deal, or try to deal with legal and financial issues. We do not have talks of any other sort nor is there regular contact.  

Also have in mind I had a MLC myself, I understand it a little bit and that it has been 13 years since Mr J left. He is not like you nor like me, nor like MLCers whose crisis lasted 2, 3, 4 years.

Like the other long term MLCers, he is different. Why there are long and short time MLCers I don't know. I suspect in some cases because the mess they keep causing during MLC keeps pilling, they need to run from it causing more mess, hurt and damage, it pilles more. It becomes a vicious circle.

MLC may be more understandle if seen as a cumpulsion. But even compulsion is accepted by the medical community.


I have been reading a lot about addiction, alcoholism, compulsion, neuroscience, neurobiology. For me, mentall illness is often neurological illness. If it affects the brain/is on the brain, it is neurological. Even when hormones are the cause of depression if is often neurological since they are connected to the brain.

Terra, most MLCers come out of MLC fine. They don't end up with a clinical diagnosed mental illness for life. Depression is mental illness, but there are many types, including mild, temporary one.

I think MLC can be treated and prevented, but the general consensus it is something that has to be lived through and nothing can be done don't allow for much interest in it.

And if it has to be lived through and nothing can be done, medicine is of no use.

So most of the MLC'ers blow up everything, do terrible things, the whole nine yards. Some (a few) are somehow able to not blow everything to smithereens and maintain some rules/values/etc.
Why/how is this?

As with everything MLC as degress. And types of MLC, High Energy MLCers and Wallowers are quite diffferent. Both have degress. There are live-in MLCers and MLCer that leave, most seem to leave. The basic scrip, especially for High Energy MLCers is the same, but there will be differences from MLCer to MLCer.

I mean it's obvious the MLC'er is compelled to do things they normally wouldn't do..... but to say there is no choice, I just have a very hard time with that. There is always choice, isn't there?

There is a choice. But MLCers rather run that stop, be quiet, think.

Instincts may scream for one course of action, but the mind ultimately makes the decision and it knows what's morally right and wrong.

The mind can be messed up with depression and several other things going on the brain brought by the rush of the affair, etc. MLCers know right from wrong.

What happens to morality while in MLC? MLC'er don't kill people..... an MLC'er knows that's wrong. What about the other stuff?

Some of them try to kill their LBS. Mine tried to kill me, LP's one tried to kill her, In It's one tried to kill her. Mine was even up to kill an unborn baby if I really happened to be pregnant. Most don't go that far, but moralitty is out of the window for many. An affair is not moral, is it? Leave your spouse to go lead a life with someone else is not moral is it? Not paying child support and/or maintenance is not moral is it?

[Thunder]

"It’s like asking someone to apologise for having a breakdown, for someone to apologise for something out of their control.
I know what I have said is controversial but it’s what I believe."

I don't think it is controversial at all, or shouldn't be.  I agree with you 100% Sis.  There may be choices on certain things, but no one made the conscious choice to go into a midlife crisis and blow their family up.
Who in their right mind would choose that?

I knew my H was not in his right mind.  How do you expect them to apologize for something they had no control over?
Yes apologize for hurting you, but not for what happened to them.  That was not a choice, in my opinion.

[megogirl]

Everything Thunder just said

Oh SS ignore everything else & please don't vanish.

[Anjae]

How do you expect them to apologize for something they had no control over?

The same way people in 12 steps programs and similar ones do.

And there is a degress of control. At least early on. Most MLCer tend to ignore it and go ahead with the crazy.

Standin's question is interesting, why do some MLCers do certain things and others don't?

One of the reasons is how they see the LBS. Just like abusers, it is all in the way the other person is perceived. And for many MLCers the LBS is perceived and less than human, total trash.

[megogirl]

Just like abusers, it is all in the way the other person is perceived. And for many MLCers the LBS is perceived and less than human, total trash.

ShockSis makes absolutely no bones about that.

She has repeatedly said that she treated him horribly, and then came out of MLC and regretted everything.  She realized that her H was #1 and wished that she could return, but he had already moved on.

Can we refrain from chastising this dear person who is only trying to help us?!?

[lawprofessor]

SS,

I'm trying to understand the fine line you are drawing between the pain you caused as a MLCer and the issue of having a MLC.

I'd agree with much of what you said and have said the same for years here as to being compelled.  I've got my own in house recovered MLCer. 

"I personally don’t feel I owe my ex h an apology for the fact I wasn’t capable of controlling my own mind though I feel deeply sorry for what happened there is a difference. Ultimately I didn’t have control of entering MLC, it just happens to some people at certain times in their lives."

Here is where I'm very uncomfortable with the analogy you use.

I'd have to say this is about the opposite of what my J believes.  He believes it was a series of his own choices that led him to being compelled to have his crisis as we discussed in therapy.

"I do hope this helps in some way to understand that the MLCer is no more responsible for this than a random lightning bolt hitting your house. "

I suppose you mean the act of having a MLC.  Perhaps not as I think a part of MLC is the chance to heal and mature so they have the chance to lead healthy lives.

But that's only true after all other chances have been expended and choices were made to not deal with issues or deal with issues and feelings in an unhealthy manner. And those things, those choices laid the groundwork for having a MLC.  That is where I see the fault lies since not everyone who has an abusive childhood or the death of friends, siblings, or a patent etc has a MLC. 

And that is right back with the MLCer. His choices. 

My J made choices that he didn't have to make as he did.

He chose to not attend grief counseling.
He chose to drink.
He chose to do drugs.
He chose not to use a condom and make 3 children when very young.
He chose to not attend counseling with the rest of his siblings to learn to cope with the childhood abuse.
He chose not to attend marriage therapy to learn proper communication techniques.
He chose not to get sober even when court ordered and even when incarcerated.
He chose not to attend parenting classes.
He chose to do nothing to build his own self esteem
He choose to be conflict avoidant
He chose to not take responsibility or deflect responsibility when something went wrong
To name a few

Because it was just easier to repeat old patterns

And he reaffirmed those decisions for over 20 years leading up to his MLC, until it became too late and he began his MLC. 

He chose his path which led to a MLC. 
It's irrelevant that he didn't know those choices were going to lead to a crisis.
He had a MLC and as a result the rest of us became collateral damage. 

Both things are his fault and in owning those he grew up and got healthy.

I just don't see the point you're making in drawing a line between having a MLC and actions during the crisis, I suppose.  A MLC doesn't just happen to some people randomly in my opinion.  It's the result of a series of experiences and choices and personality in my opinion, at least many of which are within a person's control. 

Bad things happen to all throughout our lives.  How we deal with those things is our responsibility.  At least in my opinion.  Therefore I don't see this as a random bolt of lightning hitting my house.  I see this as a drunk driver hitting my house.  Sure he didn't know what he was doing at the time but hes still at fault because he made decisions that led up to his being a drunk and out of his mind when he hit my house. 

It doesn't just begin when the fog arrives.  The seeds are laid long before that.  In my opinion and experience.

So are you saying all choices, events, decisions, reactions, feelings, and patterns of behavior in the years before the MLC were not in your control or were simply unrelated to you having a MLC?

Lp

[Shockandawe]

Anjae

I respect your opinion as I would expect you to respect mine

[Shockandawe]

Lawproffesor

I do not and cannot speak for every MLCer but I can and will speak for myself!
What your MLCER chose to do or not to do May very well have pushed him into MLC but he is not me and for whatever reason he went in he is not me, has not lived my life and does not know any of my history. I strongly maintain issues from my childhood concerning my own father’s MLC and my underdeveloped and immature coping mechanism meant that I simply hadn’t the ability to cope with him leaving us.  Years later, when he was terminally ill and lived less than 3 months from diagnosis to death it happened so quickly the ability to process it wasn’t there and I felt the familiar feelings I had so long ago hidden deep down resurface and reverted back to the only thing I knew to deal with it.
I have said I didn’t choose to go into MLC and I stand by what I said if it’s offensive to you then I cannot help that and maybe we should agree to disagree.
As I also said each MLCer is a different person to the next and the length of time each takes is different too. The strong similarities in MLC are too many to not think this is something in the human brain which switches on as means of protection.

[megogirl]

ShockSis!!!

I, for one, hear and believe everything you are saying.

I liken it to being gay.  Many people believe that it is a choice to be gay.  My BFF from college insisted, "Who would ever choose this lifestyle of their own free will?  To be ostracized and vilified?" 

Am I right?  Because I believe that he was, and believe that you are....!

[Thunder]

Like I said, I know of NO person in their right mind that would choose to have a midlife crisis.
Why would you choose to blow up your family and choose to be so miserable?  These people are not well.

I guess I find it hard to understand how someone can blame them for this.  Maybe blame them for how they handled their crisis, but not blame them FOR their crisis.  That was not their fault.
Expect them to think in any kind of rational way.."Oh I better get help because my thinking is screwed up."  Most of them think they are just fine.  Their massively confused.

They are not thinking rational while in a midlife crisis.  How can you really expect them to make rational decisions?
Like a drunk who runs someone over in a drunken state. 
Of course they should feel remorse for running over a human being, and apologize for their actions...show remorse, try to make amends, but to apologize for having an alcoholic disease makes no sense to me. 
I know MLC is not a disease, but it is definitely a disorder of some kind.

I agree with you Sis, and that is not offensive to me.   You did not consciously choose to do this to your H and I'm pretty positive you would not have if you had been thinking anywhere near rational.

[lawprofessor]

Wow what a response.

Just where are we disagreeing so hugely?  I think I said several places I agreed with you. Did you miss that?

I don't think anyone said you shouldn't speak for yourself.  Isn't that what you do here?  And if I didn't want your opinion, I wouldn't have asked you a question.

And where do you read into my post that anything you said was offensive?  I said it made me confused as to why you were drawing a line between those two parts
And another part I said made me uncomfortable.  Where is the offensive part? 

Neither did I say you were him or he you or that all MLCers were the same or all experiences were the same.

Neither did I say anyone chooses to go into MLC.  Where you read that, I don't know. I said there were things that helped lead up to the MLC, that were part of the pre MLC person.  Those parts were within the control of the MLCer in part in my opinion.   

You mentioned an immature coping response.  That begs the point I was asking about. Who is responsible for you having an immature coping response?  Since that was pre-MLC it can't be a result of your MLC.

I simply asked you a question including the background of my experiences to clarify why I was confused.

If you want to react and read into my post, rather than have a discussion about what I actually said, that's your choice.  I had simply hoped for your opinion on J's thoughts rather than a reactive response sprinkled with exclamation points.  It's OK for people to differ in opinion and still have mature conversations after all. 

Nevermind.  I'm no longer curious.
Lp

[Anjae]

Can we refrain from chastising this dear person who is only trying to help us?!?

Can we refrain from chastising those whose views aren't all like SS, especially the ones of those of us who had a MLC ourselves, and therefore have our version and views of MLC, as well of those who have years of experience with MLCers and former MLCers?

Anyone who is neither a former MLCer or who does not have years of experience with MLCers or former MLCers can also have their own views on the matters at hand.

I still stand by my thoughts that MLCers should not ever be allowed to sign legal papers etc.

This I fully agree with, but there is nothing that can be done. There is no way of preventing a MLCer from signing legal papers, hiring a lawyer, going to court, etc. 

You mentioned an immature coping response.  That begs the point I was asking about. Who is responsible for you having an immature coping response?  Since that was pre-MLC it can't be a result of your MLC.

Indeed.However, I wouldn't say the pre-MLC existing immature coping response is not the cause, or sole cause, of MLC. Without anxiety, stress and depression, I don't think it would reach MLC level.

The strong similarities in MLC are too many to not think this is something in the human brain which switches on as means of protection.

It is far more complicated than a protection mechanism of the brain, but I am not going to get into all the very complex neurological details. In essence, depression, anxiety and stress, the three things that always seem to be present in MLC, cause a series of processes in the brain as well as in the body.

It is not the MLC, or even the depression, that cause what is called protection, it is the reward system, usually the insane release of dopamine that floods the brain, leading to some feel good effects - much like with heroin or other drugs or behaviours that also lead to insane amounts of dopamine release.

That is why the affair or any other MLC behaviour seems great. For a while, at least. As with addiction, more and more is required to obtain the same effect because the brain is now addicted to its own chemicals, dopamine being only one of them. Aa this is happening, several other things are also happening in brain and body.


Thunder, the drunk who runs over someone while drunk is going to have to apologize. And probably pay the person that was runned over, or their relatives if the person dies. The drunk may end up in jail and often does.

SS's herself said she wished MLC was medically recognised because that way she may had not done what she did. Which leads to the conclusion she thinks something can be done. And if a doctor could had helped, then it is not helpless, is it?

[OffRoad]

If I were to trip over a hose, accidentally push another person into the street while trying to catch my balance, and they got run over by a car and were killed, I didn't do it on purpose, but that other person is still dead. I would apologize to that person's family for the pain they feel because I accidentally pushed their family member into the path of an oncoming car and they were killed. I pushed him, though I didn't mean to.

When a person ends up in a situation not of their making and harms another in some way, the sociatal expectation is that they apologize for the harm they caused. Not minimize the harm that happened to the other person.

To me, that is the difference between the person who is genuinely sorry for the pain they have caused or contributed to, and the person who wants to believe their actions don't affect others.  I have never understood why apologizing for hurting another individual, even if unintentional, seems to be an issue. I'd really like to understand that.

[Standing Strong]

I think it's important to remember that Shocks is responding based on her experience and viewpoint and there's no one MLC viewpoint.... all the experiences are unique.
It's fascinating to hear from someone who went thru it, and then use that to try and understand all our unique MLC'er in turn..... but they won't all line up.

It's the similarities which are very useful in particular..... and I really appreciate Shocks for helping so much.

Just want to make sure this isn't an attack session again as has happened in the past. We're all busted up to some extent or another as LBS's..... and so are ex-MLC'ers.
Hopefully we can help Shocks as much as she helps us.

-SS 

[megogirl]

And, ladies and gentlemen.....I think we have the very definition of the term "involuntary manslaughter."  It implies any death where the "murderer" was not at fault.  Seinfeld even made fun of that term for being so flippant.

It is one that I think applies to our MLC'ers.

[megogirl]

It's the similarities which are very useful in particular..... and I really appreciate Shocks for helping so much.

Just want to make sure this isn't an attack session again as has happened in the past. We're all busted up to some extent or another as LBS's..... and so are ex-MLC'ers.
Hopefully we can help Shocks as much as she helps us.

YASSSS, all of that - we appreciate your every word xxx

[Thunder]

I like that Stand.

Sis has been helpful to so many people who are trying to make sense of this, but it is important that we understand she is only giving her story and what she went through.

I find a lot of what she says very helpful.  It's hard to understand sometimes how they felt about their LBS's during this time, so to know it has nothing to do with us is a good thing.

To know they could care less about us, or our feelings, does put things in perspective and make it less personal.

[lawprofessor]

And, ladies and gentlemen.....I think we have the very definition of the term "involuntary manslaughter."  It implies any death where the "murderer" was not at fault.  Seinfeld even made fun of that term for being so flippant.

It is one that I think applies to our MLC'ers.

Involuntary manslaughter does not mean the murder was not at fault.

It means the person who killed another did not have the mens rea or guilty mind to intend to murder another yet still murdered another

Generally, Involuntary manslaughter refers to an unintentional killing that results from criminal negligence, reckless behavior, or from committing an illegal activity with a high probability of injuring or killing another such as a DUI.

Persons found guilty of Involuntary manslaughter are sentenced to generally between 2 and upwards of 20 years in prison. 

So in fact the one who killed is held responsible and accountable for their act under the law.

That differs from Off Roads example in that she was not presumably walking as part of another crime, behaving in a risky or negligent manner, or behaving recklessly when she accidentally tripped.  In that case OR could be held civilly responsible for a death, accidental though it may be.

But yes, I do remember that episode of Seinfeld.

Lp

[terra]

Ok.

The guy who killed my father, did so while my father was asleep. He smashed my father’s skull in with a huge rock.

He got involuntary manslaughter.

He got five years, walked free after two. Zero reparations to the family and no apologies.

So if we’re comparing MLC to legal criminality, maybe it’s helpful to examine how jury of peers probably figures into accountability and remorse, etc.

[Father5]

Hi SS ,

I got served last week. My wife has had alot more contact with me as well. I am still not able tk talk to her or really look at her. Is this a problem I need to Solve anytime soon? Is my distance chasing her away or making her feel like the door isn't open. ?

[Treasur]

I have learned (very very slowly  ) that the thoughts I resist most are often where I hurt most and the things I need to address most. When i am ready and I can, which sometimes takes a little while.

I see us talking about three things here; culpability for having a crisis or depression, regret for the effects and remorse for the people other than you who get hurt by it.

Your responses, ShockSis, usually are very measured and quite open and kind in tone. But your response when any of us question your stance on showing remorse or on the extent to which you might understand the depth of pain your actions caused your xh and your daughter say are different. Which is your right of course. It's the only time you come across as defensive or with a flavour of MLCish self-centredness. But from the outside, seems like a missing bit of the recovery jigsaw. I don't say this to criticise you or 'Chase you away'....but if you can't engage in discussion unless people don't challenge your perspective with their own, that may be a bit of a flag for you about your own healing work bc it is a bit MLCish.

I don't believe either that anyone 'chooses' to have an MLC or depressive breakdown or PTSD or addiction. But I also believe that recovering from any of them requires a level of accountability for the actions that took you into it...as with my PTSD...in order to take the actions that get you out of it. And - other than marrying my h and perhaps inadvertently enabling some of his poor life coping skills inadvertently - I certainly wasn't accountable for his abusive actions towards me. But I am/was - even if it feels unfair sometimes - accountable for my own self-protection and how I deal with the effects of it. An 'act of God' free pass for either of us doesn't seem very constructive tbh.

For me, it is a bit like 12 steps. Regret is 'sorry for what happened'. Remorse is 'sorry for what I did'. Neither imho need an apology for the reason behind it, for having a crisis or depression...the why of it is no ones' business but your own and your choice to share the why as you see fit. I can only  imagine how painful it might be to look at the damage and pain you caused but it is still reality that your behaviour in crisis DID probably cause great pain for your xh, your daughter and some of your friends and family. LP's drunk driver analogy works for me...but again the reality is that it wasn't a one of incident but repeated over a number of years, not months or weeks. Some of the damage was life-altering and as you probably see from your window into LBS life here and with your sister, there is a lot of residue that takes years to heal. And many of us feel that acknowledgement of that by an MLCer is an important part of their healing process and perhaps our own.

Part of what we do here is offer 2x4s with love to each other. We call out self-sabotaging BS while accepting that people have the right to reject it. In essence, MLC seems to me to be a time when someone puts how THEY FEEL at a given moment above everything and everyone else, including how other people feel. It makes sense to me that real recovery is about no longer doing that....

You don't owe us anything at all. But perhaps you owe yourself and those you love a moment to consider whether you still have some recovery work to do around the issue of remorse and accountability. That may even be the unasked for gift of your posting here. Jmo. It is your life and you will do what you are ready or willing to do.

[Thunder]

I'm having a bit of a hard time with this. 

You said if SS can't engage in discussion unless people don't challenge her perspective with their own, you think it may be a bit MLCish.

I thought SS's explanation was pretty clear.  At least it was to me.  I honestly don't see it as MLCish.
She does not want to further hurt her XH and does not feel this is the time to talk to him.  I would think she has her own reasons for that, one being she knows him probably better than anyone else.  I guess I don't see that as selfish at all.  She's not unleashing her guilt onto him so she feels better.
She has asked people to please respect her decision, twice now.  She obviously feels she is doing the right thing, whether some disagree with her or not.
Maybe in her heart she knows what this would do to her xh, at this time.  I sure don't know.

We all have different circumstances, and different MLCer's, so we do what we feel is the best way to handle our unique situations.
How I handle mine, isn't maybe the best way to handle someone else's.  So right or wrong, we all make different decisions going forward.

I see nothing wrong with asking questions, as to why SS may feel like she does but in my opinion I thought her answer made sense.

It's quite possible some LBS's who are still hurting want her to do what would make them feel good, and when they are not hearing that from SS they are having a hard time accepting she may just know better how to handle her XH and his family situation.

Maybe this feels uncomfortable to some and people have voiced their opinions, which is fine we express our views on a Discussion thread, but we still need to respect each others choices.  We are not here to judge anyone.
If anyone disagrees with me, that's fine.  I accept that. 

I'm just giving my unasked for opinion.

[nah]

This is one of the most popular threads bc most LBSers are curious about what the MLCer was thinking. Even though we thought we knew them better than anyone else, well, we still couldn’t see inside their heads.

I’m a remarried LBS.

SS, take it or leave it (I have a feeling you’re going to leave it)

Having my ex come to me, phone me, write to me that I did not deserve to be betrayed and abandoned would do the opposite of “hurting me”. Honestly, the idea that an authentic apology could hurt someone just doesn’t make sense. How about giving the LBSer a chance to decide what’s good for them?

That would be a nice change.

[1trouble]

I'm having a bit of a hard time with this. 

You said if SS can't engage in discussion unless people don't challenge her perspective with their own, you think it may be a bit MLCish.

I thought SS's explanation was pretty clear.  At least it was to me.  I honestly don't see it as MLCish.
She does not want to further hurt her XH and does not feel this is the time to talk to him.  I would think she has her own reasons for that, one being she knows him probably better than anyone else.  I guess I don't see that as selfish at all.  She's not unleashing her guilt onto him so she feels better.
She has asked people to please respect her decision, twice now.  She obviously feels she is doing the right thing, whether some disagree with her or not.
Maybe in her heart she knows what this would do to her xh, at this time.  I sure don't know.

We all have different circumstances, and different MLCer's, so we do what we feel is the best way to handle our unique situations.
How I handle mine, isn't maybe the best way to handle someone else's.  So right or wrong, we all make different decisions going forward.

I see nothing wrong with asking questions, as to why SS may feel like she does but in my opinion I thought her answer made sense.

It's quite possible some LBS's who are still hurting want her to do what would make them feel good, and when they are not hearing that from SS they are having a hard time accepting she may just know better how to handle her XH and his family situation.

Maybe this feels uncomfortable to some and people have voiced their opinions, which is fine we express our views on a Discussion thread, but we still need to respect each others choices.  We are not here to judge anyone.
If anyone disagrees with me, that's fine.  I accept that. 

I'm just giving my unasked for opinion.

I completely agree with everything you have said Thunder.

We have every right to express our opinions but no right to judge anyone else and their decisions

[Treasur]

My post Thunder was not about her choice re her xh. You're quite right, that is hers to make. Or indeed his. And you're quite right too, as I said on an earlier post, that it may be as difficult for an MLCer to 'get' the experience of an LBS as vice versa.

My post was in response to the bit of the discussion about SS feeling that she was being asked to say sorry for having an MLC and responded quite idk testily, whereas I saw people simply challenging her on remorse and accountability for the effects of her MLC actions on others.  ShockSis is usually very kind and measured in her responses, and so her reaction was out of the norm. Hence my challenge to her that if it hit a tender spot, that may be telling her something useful about the extent to which she has shaken off the last bits of MLC residue. A kind of arrogance, a bit black and white or an unwillingness to listen to more than ones own justifying story. Tbh we LBS can fall into the same trap too can't we?

The lightening strike metaphor may be how she feels about the experience from the inside, but not necessarily how it was for others on the outside and it does sound like regret more than remorse to say 'it was beyond my control so nothing I can/should do'. Plus a danger in a kind of mind reading about what the people we hurt need or don't, and that the onus is on them to ask for remorse rather than the other to offer it. Just as Nah said....why would showing honest acknowledgement and remorse hurt someone? How can you have empathy without listening to someone else's pain? And why would they be honest with you after years of indifference to their pain if you don't first show remorse? And isn't it ShockSis's xh's business what he does with that instead of ShockSis making that decision for him? Again as Nah said, we LBS don't get much choice or respect in MLC.

We love and value ShockSis....but it is also reality that her actions deeply hurt people she loved. We all wish that were not so, but it is how it goes. I honestly believe that accountability is vital for anyone to heal and I want ShockSis to heal fully (even if it's not my business) bc I value and respect her. I am offering an outside POV but I am not judging her. I don't know enough to do so and it isn't my place. I suppose I don't see questioning as judging...just questioning. I am comfortable that others including you and ShockSis may disagree with me. And I may be wrong. Either way I have shared my POV and will now stop being a bore and repeating myself.

[forthetrees]

I´m having a hard time accepting that an MLCer has no choice and is compelled into the journey. My ex did go to the dr. with me, got a dx of a personality change. He went alone to dr. got prescribed anti-anxiety meds AND counseling but only took the pills and did not tell me of the counseling piece. Depression/anxiety have a lot of overlap and I know that depression goes along with inflammation in the brain and that there is a blood marker for it. What MLCer´s have is inflammation and a sparse took kit for dealing with the emotional duress that ensues. Being offered the tools to help oneself and taking a pass on that opportunity is something I leave at the feet of the MLCer. For me the question is why does a MLCer disregard the lifelines that are offered and go off on a journey in which they are still feeling like crap much of the time? Pain is useful in that it forces change. If the MLCer has no growth from the experience, what a loss of opportunity. I would say that the vast majority of LBSers do grow from the pain- what other choice do we have?

In my life, the two people who hurt me the most are two people who almost never apologized for anything. What is it about the inability to apologize? Ex- never apologized for anything. My mother apologized for hitting me as a child- but did it 20-30 years later. While it is of value to know that she acknowledged that it was wrong, the extreme delayed timing takes away much of the positive impact of the apology.

What is the emotional and health cost to the MLCer for not apologizing?

[nah]

Treasur... you are far from a bore and your thoughts make perfect sense to me.

[Thunder]

Thank you for your nice response, Treasur.  I agree it is good to give a persons POV on a subject where people are not in agreement, it is sometimes very useful and thought provoking to possibly look at something differently, or from a different angle.

Let's face it LBS's and MLCer's do look at things differently.  Nature of the beast, I guess.

I suppose there can be a fine line sometimes between questioning and judging.
All in how a person takes it.

I do know you do not judge people, I have never seen it anyway.  You have always been very supportive with people.  I was just starting to feel uncomfortable as to where this was all leading.  There are people who just don't agree with SS's decision and sometimes, as we all know, a thread can blow up pretty easily when emotions run high.   

Sorry for highjacking your thread, SS.  Back to your Q & A thread.   

[Treasur]

I do know you do not judge people, I have never seen it anyway.

Oh idk...I'm sure i've had my moments  but I try hard to judge behaviour not humans bc we all mess up sometimes, me as much as others.

You have always been very supportive with people.

Thank you, what a nice thing to say.
I guess my version of support (maybe bc I am a coach) includes asking tough questions of myself and others sometimes. Bc I guess I believe truth is worth chasing for ourselves and that uncomfortable questions sometimes open a window to new and delightful answers 

[Watcher]

IDK why there is such a need for an apology and who would it really serve. I lived with a woman who was diagnosed clinically depressed and had anxiety for 16 years. Maybe that's why I always just viewed her crisis as an extension of her ongoing depression. She never had to apologize for her depression. She didn't ask for depression nor her crisis nor her mental illness.

I am a strong believer that her crisis is deeply rooted in childhood trauma. My W has described her mind as never stopping. The thoughts are always racing. I do believe she recognizes the choices that she is making. On the flip side I don't believe she can stop herself. No mother would consciously destroy the lives of her 2 son's.

I filed for divorce finally as a means of financial protection. My MLCer better be compelled to sign it. 
My sons will need a financially stable parent when she eventually does crash.

Maybe ShockSis  XH doesn't need an apology like me. I always just wanted a fist bump.  Maybe he already notices the changes. Maybe he can tell that she has exited her crisis. Maybe he is just as scared or apprehensive to broach the subject as I know I would be. On top of it the man is married and has a new family. Maybe he has his own guilt. I know guilt plays a big role in my life.

Crisis life becomes the new normal as it eventually replaces our dead past. I will know when my W exited her crisis. There would be no need for an apology. There is no script for how one has to behave once the crisis has ended.

ShockSis I read you with both hesitation and fascination. I don't know how I would handle when or if the day ever came when my W became the next ShockSis. 

I wish you continued strength on your journey. 

[Anjae]

All Treasur said in her last two posts. - before the latest one.

My posts also had nothing to do with SS's husband. I actually understand why she does not want to reach further to him. If I am not mistaken, she had said in past threads she had apologize to him.

Like Treasur I see MLCish in the defensiveness regarding our questions, they are questions and also our opinion.

I also see, and that is what I see, a lack of understanding in the true pain and troubles caused to the LBS. Someone who never was a LBS probably cannot understand and phantom the hugeness of pain and trauma their actions caused.


I am both, LBS and former MLC. My MLC come with BD, so I don't have to deal with the issues many other MLCers have. I also asked for help and got it, so that may be why things didn't got that bad.

Being offered the tools to help oneself and taking a pass on that opportunity is something I leave at the feet of the MLCer.

So do I. Mr J was offered two GPs, one at his disposal on his pre-MLC company, a couple of psychiatrist, one neurologist, one endocrinologist (SIL thought he may had thyroid issues like she and MIL have had) and a couple of therapists.

His pre-MLC company also offered him sick leave, not that they had to. He could get it from his normal GP. He refused it all and was extremely rude to his pre-MLC GP went so far as closing his office door on the doctors face and locking himself inside the office.

With so much help, he is the sole responsible for the following mess that come, every sort of damage he caused me, etc. The doctors and the lawyers agress on that, so it is not just me saying it. They all it is on him and he is the sole responsible.

For me the question is why does a MLCer disregard the lifelines that are offered and go off on a journey in which they are still feeling like crap much of the time?

I don't know. But I would venture because the depression is making their thinking more and more messed, then when there is OW/OM there is a rush of euphoria and the MLCer feels great, even if briefly and thinks that is the solution.

They feel like crap most of the time because all sorts of brain and body levels fluctuate. MLCers don't tend to lead a balanced life. For each fantastic high there is a terrible low. Getting the fantastic high becomes harder and harder, but the lows keep growing worst and worst.

Pain is useful in that it forces change.

Pain only seems to serve to make the MLCer leave spouse/marriage and get into MLC activities. It does not seem to work to make them stop those things. Which, again, leads us to the highs and lows. If they stop whatever it is that still provides them with a bit of a high there will be an horrendous low, a very dark, deep place will be hit. Who wants to go there? No one. Yet, for the most part, if the MLCer does not go there, the MLCer will not get out of Replay.

My MLC was short and mild. The low was still terrible. But I had no choice. I was physically exhausted and crashed. I don't have the energy and stamina of most High Energy MLCers.

What is the emotional and health cost to the MLCer for not apologizing?

I don't know. But apologizing just for apologizing like Mr J has done several times does not seem to make a difference to the
MLCer's emotional health nor change a thing. For an out of Replay and possibly Liminality MLCer? I don't know.

Depression/anxiety have a lot of overlap and I know that depression goes along with inflammation in the brain and that there is a blood marker for it. What MLCer´s have is inflammation ...

Depression does not always goes along with inflammation in the brain. That is one of the things that can happen in the brain with depression, but not the only one and not always. Also, depression has different sources. Depression for lack of Vitamin D is not the same as clinical depression. Depression caused by thyroid issues is not the same as situational depression, etc.

Brain inflammation is  also related to depression duration - if the depression is the type that causes inflammation. We do not know what is going on in our MLCer's brains.

That I know off there is a blood test specifically for depression. What there are is blood tests to rule out several illnesses that cause depression, but aren't clinical/mental health depression.

There are tests being made with blood markers to determine if it is possible to detect depression with a blood test and reports with suggestions. But it would still leave us with what sort of depression is being detected.

And if MLCers have, or do not have, that sort of depression. High Energy MLCers do not have the normal depression sympthoms, wallowers tend to.

As a former MLCer, I think putting and end to the anxiety and stress right away would be an excellent think. That alone would help the thinking and the manicness.

[1trouble]

My post was in response to the bit of the discussion about SS feeling that she was being asked to say sorry for having an MLC and responded quite idk testily, whereas I saw people simply challenging her on remorse and accountability for the effects of her MLC actions on others.  ShockSis is usually very kind and measured in her responses, and so her reaction was out of the norm. Hence my challenge to her that if it hit a tender spot, that may be telling her something useful about the extent to which she has shaken off the last bits of MLC residue. A kind of arrogance, a bit black and white or an unwillingness to listen to more than ones own justifying story. Tbh we LBS can fall into the same trap too can't we?

The lightening strike metaphor may be how she feels about the experience from the inside, but not necessarily how it was for others on the outside and it does sound like regret more than remorse to say 'it was beyond my control so nothing I can/should do'. Plus a danger in a kind of mind reading about what the people we hurt need or don't, and that the onus is on them to ask for remorse rather than the other to offer it. Just as Nah said....why would showing honest acknowledgement and remorse hurt someone? How can you have empathy without listening to someone else's pain? And why would they be honest with you after years of indifference to their pain if you don't first show remorse? And isn't it ShockSis's xh's business what he does with that instead of ShockSis making that decision for him? Again as Nah said, we LBS don't get much choice or respect in MLC.

We love and value ShockSis....but it is also reality that her actions deeply hurt people she loved. We all wish that were not so, but it is how it goes. I honestly believe that accountability is vital for anyone to heal and I want ShockSis to heal fully (even if it's not my business) bc I value and respect her. I am offering an outside POV but I am not judging her. I don't know enough to do so and it isn't my place. I suppose I don't see questioning as judging...just questioning. I am comfortable that others including you and ShockSis may disagree with me. And I may be wrong. Either way I have shared my POV and will now stop being a bore and repeating myself.

I have highlighted just some of your post Treasur not to get at you but to show you what I saw in it, which is different from what you meant AND different no doubt from how others see things.....

1) You saw people challenging her remorse and accountability surely even the word challenging could be seen as 'demanding' or 'imposing'.  And to illustrate the point of why I agree with Thunder I saw pressure in the 'challenging'


2) You say you feel her response may have 'hit a tender spot', well maybe she is getting a bit fed up with having to justify her own personal decision not to approach her husband. This theme keeps coming up.
And BTW didnt you respond 'testily' to something I said the other day?
 from what I remember, your 'testiness' wasnt because it hit a nerve, you were just having a bad day.
To read anything in to SS 'testiness' and see it as a 'tender spot' in itself judgement IMO and to the project arrogance onto her when your following comments smack of it is quite frankly amazing and I will temper that by saying you are not normally an arrogant person, and I am sure you didnt meant it as such but see how we all read stuff into things?
 
3) We are LBS's we know what it is to be an LBS BUT very few of us have had our own CRISIS situation.  I firmly believe from what I have read and saw with my own eyes this is not something they with all brain chemicals firing normally.  She is on here to help people because she is consumed with guilt and shame and has said over and over again how she regrets it. 
The definition of remorse is what I see in Shocks sister, it may not be what you think it is but its what I see

4) The mind reading comment is ironic as thats what you are doing because you do not know the facts of SS situation even though she has explained them ad nauseam.

You are also talking in the collective about 'hurt people' I am someone who has been hurt but I dont need an apology, it wouldnt cut it, it wouldnt change anything, I would still get up tomorrow morning knowing that my life as it was is irrevocably changed.
I still have to live the life I have now.

5) And again deciding what Shocks H needs on his behalf is plain wrong. You dont know him anymore than I do, you have to respect SS decision and go back and read her reasons, what maybe right for other LBS's that have moved on and married does not make it right for him.

Nah is happily married, SS H is not thats the difference IMO, telling an unhappily married person (WITH KIDS) that she is sorry and regrets everything could mean instead of him putting the effort into sorting out his marriage and being sure of what he really wants, t could make him make a decision that causes further hurt, if I can understand that, I cant see why others cant!!

6) From everything SS has said I think she is fully aware she has hurt people and thats why she is on here to give something back BUT what your believes are on how people heal are not right for everyone.

Personally healing comes from moving forward, excepting whats happened, knowing and being grateful for what you had and the love you knew AND forgiving yourself and the person you love. See we LBS's all want and need different things.....

What was it Nah said, the best revenge is to lead a good life!!

Lasty I am sad this thread keeps getting bogged down with the same discussion on apology and remorse when there is a discussion thread now opened for that very thing.

I know an awful lot of LBS's are getting a huge amount from what SS is sharing especially newer LBS's and I hope she continues to post here xx 

[Anjae]

I didn't saw anyone challenging SS's, I saw people putting questions to her and having opinions and views that may not match hers.

We are LBS's we know what it is to be an LBS BUT very few of us have had our own CRISIS situation.

But the few of us who had know how it is. Yet, somehow, other LBS do not seem to pay much, if any attention, to what we say.

Not even when we say SS's is just one MLCer and when she generalizes she is just doing that and she generalized several times on this thread as well as in previous ones.

Not even when we say a fully recovered MLCer would not have the reactions SS's is having to the questions she was put regarding apologizing, regret, remorse - I don't mean in relation to her husband, I mean a MLCer in general.

IMO SS's is out of Replay and probably fully out of Liminality and at some early point in Rebirth. Or somewhere at the very end of Liminality and early Rebirth. She is not at the end of Re-integration or past it. There are many clues a former MLCer can spot that indicate where she most likely is on her MLC journey.

MLC does not end with Replay or Liminality.

Also, even if MLC script is pretty much the same and so is the basic MLC process, each MLCer is different in his/her own specificities.

[xyzcf]

Somehow, it feels like Shocksis must be "fixed"..that she is wrong in her understanding of her own MLC and the pain that it caused and that unless she makes amends the way we think she should, then she'd better do more soul searching.

I would be very troubled by some of the comments made to her..as a "loving 4x4"? What gives us that right?

I understand what Shocksis has said..she had a MLC. It was not her wish, nor her desire and it was unavoidable. Her actions, as well as what I have seen in my husband came from a different place inside.

She is trying to live her life, the hours that she spends patiently here, sharing her story and answering questions is one way she has chosen to "pay it forward".

We really should not be here to judge others or insist that they are wrong in their feelings. We are not their therapist not should we be.

LBSer or recovered MLCer, there should be support and kindness for each person's willingness to share their journey.

I do not like what is being said to Shocksis as she tried to express her thoughts. I cannot really find the words to explain, but reading the "truth darts" thrown at her made me feel very uneasy.

[Anjae]

SS's is no different than any other HS member.

HS member are often given 2x4 and not always loving ones. They are also often told they still need to heal/grow/have work to do.

SS's feelings are hers, as mine are mine. Her views on her MLC are hers, as my views on her MLC and on my MLC are mine. And she is free to have her view on my MLC.

As a former MLCer and someone who has former MLCers in the family and former MLCer friends, SS's views on MLC - here I am talking of MLC in general - and several of her responses to LBS leave me uncomfortable.

What I really like? SS's clearly tells the MLCer could not care less about the LBS while deep in crisis/Replay. We don't exist, we're less than trash and it does not matter if we starve, are ill, have no money. Makes no difference, MLCers of a certain level of MLC do not care.

[Thunder]

This may sound silly, but I have to admit, even being on this board for years, SS did help me to understand what was going through my MLCer's mind during his BD time, much better than anything else I read.

I mean I knew his emotions were shut off, that was obvious.  But her explanation was so clear.  It had absolutely nothing to do with me.  I understood that, but she made me REALLY understand it.
He, at that point in time, did not care one speck about me.

It was completely all about him and his need to divorce me because he felt trapped.  Just wanted to get rid of me.  He was always decent to me so I never thought that way.

It's very hard for a spouse of many years, who were always very much loved, to come to grips with that.  You're so confused, thinking you a HAD to have done something wrong and you try to fix it, but you really can't because you are no where on their radar at the time.  You couldn't fix it no matter what you do.

Maybe this has helped a lot of confused LBS newbies to realize that much sooner by reader SS's posts.
Possible stop them sooner from making mistakes we all made.
You can't reach them so don't even try.  You are the enemy.  You may as well go on a few year vacation and leave them to it.

So I do thank SS for all her replies to questions.

I don't believe SS is no different than any other HS member.  She went through a crisis and destroyed her family.  None of us LBS's did that.

[Anjae]

This may sound silly, but I have to admit, even being on this board for years, SS did help me to understand what was going through my MLCer's mind during his BD time, much better than anything else I read.

Interesting. I recall several HS members who had a MLC and other former MLCer writing exactly the same and explaining it the same. Or maybe to be it is the same.

I always knew it had nothing to do with me and as for getting rid of me, Mr J tried to kill me. It is hard to be more clear than that. 


SS's does not help me to understand what is going on with Mr J. She is very different from him. She also had a short MLC and OM ended in one and a half year. It is apples and oranges. My mild short crisis is closer to SS's one than Mr J's one.


SS's also writes in a mix of Mr J's OW1 way of writing and the way Mr J wrote to OW1. So, of course, no help there. When I read her, I read the same style and tone those two use to write to each other.

You may as well go on a few year vacation and leave them to it.

IMO, with a few exceptions, you may as well divorce them and never look back. Because most of them do not tend to have short crisis and tend to do much, much worst than SS's did. And she already did a lot.

As for the MLCer needing to divorce or whatever the LBS. Maybe. It just happens the LBS also has needs that are not being meet by the MLCer and will not be meet by the MLCer for years on end We often forget LBS have needs and over worry with the MLCer's needs.

I don't believe SS is no different than any other HS member.  She went through a crisis and destroyed her family.  None of us LBS's did that.

Some of us LBS did just that. There are LBS on HS that had a MLC and destroyed their family. Have we already forgot them? Not all LBS on HS had a MLC like mine and Ready2's. SS's is also not the first MLCer who destroyed the family that has been on HS.

What I meant is that 2 x 4 and the healing, growth, etc. questions are as valid to a LBS as to a MLCer.

Another thing I like in SS's story even if it is not a good/happy one. She is not reconciled, her LBS moved on and has a new life.

When I, like a broken record, say that most MLCers will come out of MLC and want back, but most will not reconcile, people seem to be upset with it.

However, that is both my HS and real life experience. SS's and several other former MLCer we have had on HS confirm it, as, so far do every high energy MLCer I know in real life - my wallower cousin was different, he went nowhere, no OW, just overtly depressed.

In the end, it is up to the LBS. As, IMO, it should be.

[megogirl]

SS's is no different than any other HS member.

She is VERY different.  Why do you suppose everyone wants to read everything she has to say?

HS member are often given 2x4 and not always loving ones.

Maybe it's just me, but I am 48 YEARS OLD and never once asked for a "2 x 4", from anyone.

But should someone have the gumption to offer one anyway, I find it thoroughly unwarranted and condescending. 

[Anjae]

She is VERY different.  Why do you suppose everyone wants to read everything she has to say?

In the context of 2 x 4 and the growth and healing. That was my she is no different.


When Busy_Bee and Denje and other HS members that had a MLC or when another MLCer or former MLCer come by people would do the same they are doing now with SS's.

SS's is no different than the other HS members that have a MLC or are former MLCers.

Maybe you haven't been here long enough to notice that it is not the first time someone like SS's comes along?


2x4 are not asked for. They are given. Including by RCR and the mods. And have been since HS exists. They are part of HS.

[Thunder]

Yes Den is another recovered MLCer who helped many people.  Sis and Den were both very helpful.

I guess I'm just not one to give 2x4's,  but then I don't believe in NC (unless they are very abusive) or in Truth Darts much either.  But that's just me.

I'm not saying I'm against a gentle 2x4, it's just not me to do it.  I would rather find another way.

[xyzcf]

2x4 are not asked for. They are given. Including by RCR and the mods. And have been since HS exists. They are part of HS.

I do not talk to people or support people by giving them a 2 x 4. This idea of hitting someone over the head with a 2 x 4 piece of wood is a very violent ideology and it is NOT shared by all members on HS.

There are times when I will disagree with someone, or perhaps suggest another side or point of view.

But I am against delivering blows to other LBSers who are doing the best they can to manage.

2 x 4's are not necessarily given to promote healing in another LBSer...but often to prove that the person delivering the
2 x 4 knows more than another or always has to be right or have the last say.

[megogirl]

2x4 are not asked for. They are given. Including by RCR and the mods. And have been since HS exists. They are part of HS.

RCR can say whatever she wants because it's HER site.  Not the mods, not the members, not the lurkers.  Certainly not random posters who happen to have been here for years on end, and thus feel they have some strange sense of "senority."

I have been here for almost three years and am very familiar with Denjef31, and busy_bee, etc.  All are extremely valuable to this community.  But ShockSis is here regularly, while the others are more sporadic at this point.  She is to be respected and appreciated, and I certainly don't think she needs any 2 X 4's from anyone. 

She has made her decision and I think she knows what's best for HER situation - not random people on a website.

[Anjae]

Yes Den is another recovered MLCer who helped many people.  Sis and Den were both very helpful.

Don't forget Bee. Even Ready2, just to name a few more.

I don't see a 2 x 4 as hitting someone over the head with anything. Nor do I see them as violent. There was nothing violent in what Treasur said.

I don't understand the fuss over a 2 x 4, something that has existed since HS exists nor over what Treasur said.

RCR allows people to give 2 x 4. I think there are even blog posts or post by RCR about the matter.

But ShockSis is here regularly, while the others are more sporadic at this point. 

Exactly. SS's is the current former MLCer willing to take questions who is around more.

We are all random strangers on a website.

[OffRoad]

I personally don’t feel I owe my ex h an apology for the fact I wasn’t capable of controlling my own mind though I feel deeply sorry for what happened there is a difference. Ultimately I didn’t have control of entering MLC, it just happens to some people at certain times in their lives.
I do hope this helps in some way to understand that the MLCer is no more responsible for this than a random lightning bolt hitting your house.
I still stand by my thoughts that MLCers should not ever be allowed to sign legal papers etc.

As I re read the post which I believe caused all the confusion and questioning,  SS feels she doesn't owe her xh an apology for being, in her experience, incapable of controlling her own mind, but that she is sorry it happened. It looks like a disconnect between the reader and writer happened because while there is mention of being sorry it happened,  there is no mention of there ever being an apology for the "sorry it happened" portion of the MLC.  This leaves the reader wondering why someone would not apologize (as in ever) for the actions that hurt another., intentional or not, 

It's interesting, because I don't recall anyone saying a person should apologize for having an mlc. Just for the hurt the mlc caused (at least at some point).  And then some people appear to not need an apology for being treated poorly. As I struggle to understand why apologies seem to be so difficult, the differing perspectives show why interpersonal relationships are fraught with miscommunication.

[Anjae]

This two quotes from SS's, about which I made questions on reply #76 of this thread, but got none tell me that there is something that can be done and the MLCer is not so incapable.

Otherwise, why wish MLC was medically recognised? Still, if someone is out of their mind, MLC being recognised or not, that person should go see a professional.

I wish it was recognised medically because I know I wasn’t in my right mind my normal frame of mind when I exploded my life.

I personally don’t feel I owe my ex h an apology for the fact I wasn’t capable of controlling my own mind though I feel deeply sorry for what happened there is a difference.

There is another thing I don't like in the first quote, SS's, like nearly all MLCers, exploded someone else's life. Yet, she only speaks of herself. She, like any MLCer, had the option of getting professional help. I looked for professional help and it made a difference.

And then some people appear to not need an apology for being treated poorly.

I don't need an apology because I already got several and Mr J keep treating me poorly and being nasty. Also, I'm sorry I blew your life apart and was physically violent is not going to do it. It is just words and there is nothing I can do with words.

[lawprofessor]

I personally don’t feel I owe my ex h an apology for the fact I wasn’t capable of controlling my own mind though I feel deeply sorry for what happened there is a difference. Ultimately I didn’t have control of entering MLC, it just happens to some people at certain times in their lives.
I do hope this helps in some way to understand that the MLCer is no more responsible for this than a random lightning bolt hitting your house.
I still stand by my thoughts that MLCers should not ever be allowed to sign legal papers etc.

As I re read the post which I believe caused all the confusion and questioning,  SS feels she doesn't owe her xh an apology for being, in her experience, incapable of controlling her own mind, but that she is sorry it happened. It looks like a disconnect between the reader and writer happened because while there is mention of being sorry it happened,  there is no mention of there ever being an apology for the "sorry it happened" portion of the MLC.  This leaves the reader wondering why someone would not apologize (as in ever) for the actions that hurt another., intentional or not, 

It's interesting, because I don't recall anyone saying a person should apologize for having an mlc. Just for the hurt the mlc caused (at least at some point).  And then some people appear to not need an apology for being treated poorly. As I struggle to understand why apologies seem to be so difficult, the differing perspectives show why interpersonal relationships are fraught with miscommunication.

I'm with you in the same boat of confusion Off Road.  That's why I asked for clarification as to the meaning and said I was confused. 

I don't know where all this talk came from about 2 x4's and such when I don't see where that happened. 

I don't think the topic has been split into the 2 parts before, by a former MLCER.  (Happening and hurt caused).  At least not that I've read.  So I was confused and asked for clarification. 

Lp

[Ready2Transform]

What I meant is that 2 x 4 and the healing, growth, etc. questions are as valid to a LBS as to a MLCer.

I agree. Most times, and I think Treasur and LP did their due diligence here, they are tempered with compassion. They posed questions to ponder. Not aggressive. There is an undercurrent of fear that SS is going to be pushed off the forum I think, and that too is SS's choice. It's important to differentiate the support and comfort we get from someone's words, and a dependency on them. /rant

I'm glad Anjae brought up the stages of exiting the tunnel. I thought I was out way before I was. I'm going to ask her, SS, denjef if she's reading, and any other former MLCers who may have some input: do you agree that the actual emotional issues that got you to MLC aren't dealt with until AFTER the tunnel, not as a means to get out of it?

This has been my experience. All of the real work of childhood wounding has been with my newer brain. I could not have done it while still in crisis, even toward the end. I *did* begin the "chemical" part of healing (my nutritional and physical changes that worked on healing my brain chemistry). That had to be the foundation. I am with Anjae/FTT/kikki/Velika who see this all medically before emotionally. I validate what SS said about not having a choice in this happening, but LP's allegory with the drunk driver is spot on, in my view. I'm absolutely responsible to clean up my mess. That involves the people I hurt (including, first on the list - myself). Maturing emotionally and not coming from the perspective of a wounded child means no longer seeking a loophole of accountability. That has been my experience. And I did apologize to my xH years ago and have maintained integrity to the best of my ability in our split. That's all I can do.

[Anjae]

I don't recall any childhood work post tunnel, but in the tunnel certainly there was nothing being done other than going out and about and having fun and being tired when the fun would calm down.

My emotional issues had to do with the fact that I was emotional rather than rational at BD. How could I had been emotional? Why didn't I do what needed to be done? They were only dealt with after the tunnel and Liminality. Way after. I figure out why I was not acting rational at the time.

I was in too much stress, anxiety and turmoil, that cause changes to brain and body and the doctor I went to at BD gave me valerian pills that did nothing to my level of anxiety and stress. Only after I come back and my friend who is a psychiatrist gave me Alprazolan did things start to calm down.

It took a good while because there had already been too much stress, anxiety and turmoil that I made worst with my going up and down city hills for hours when I still lived in the capital and by all the going out and about.

With my personal experience, observing my counsin's crisis under the microscope and with what I have learned of neurobiology and neuroscience my view is that the issue is medical and it is the fact that the medical is not attended that creates the emotional turmoil.

Whatever our emotions, MLC or no MLC, they connected to our mind/brain and body, they do not exist in a vacuum. Everything, from being in love to depression to the way MLCer skew things can be explained with science and/or medicine. Of course it is pretty tedious to explain being in love with hormones and other chemicals and none of us does that in real life.

[megogirl]

Involuntary manslaughter does not mean the murder was not at fault.

No I know - what I actually said was that it was IMPLIED they were not at fault.  Hence the word "involuntary".

[Shockandawe]

Hello everyone, Shock here,

I have been reading through this thread and I think it’s about time everyone understands that my sister has made up her mind about the fact she will explain things to her ex h when she feels the time is right, NOT for her but for him.
As for Anjae somehow getting the idea my sister was in MLC for only a year and a half I have no idea where that came from. It was 4 years also she said she wished mlc was medically recognised NOT for the mlcer but to protect the lbser from a rampant mlcer who signs legal paper work which could financially damage the lbser. She was prescribed meds but flushed them down the toilet as she didn’t think there was anything wrong with her. So no, to have it medically recognised would be of no use to the mlcer it would be of massive use to the lbser.
I spoke to her earlier today and it seems to me that the same old ground keeps getting hauled out again and again. The decision to talk to and apologise is hers and hers alone.
Our own Father went through mlc but I didn’t though my sister did. The fact she is older and must have been affected more profoundly than I which in turn to my understanding anyway, meant this was predestined to happen.
All I know is she is a massive part of my life and my support. Without her I wouldn’t have the understanding she has given me and for that I am eternally grateful. The fact she does this for others is something she gives back and is always completely honest and open with her responses.
As her sister I am asking for everyone to respect her wishes and accept the fact she will not have discuss with her and x h anything that is in anyway an explanation but has repeatedly said she intends to do so when the time is right.
She will continue to answer questions to the best of her ability but will not answer any more about the whole apology topic.
I know my sister was a different person during her mlc. I know she is back and is the person I have known my whole life.
She is a good and kind person who went through something which not only devastated her ex h but destroyed her life too. I know that no one would do that by choice and it would be pretty outrageous of me to even think someone would knowingly be so cruel as to choose to do so.

God bless you all

Shock

[Sam I Am]

Understood.  I can and will respect that boundary!

I for one am very appreciative of all your sister has offered and all she has endured since speaking up on this forum!

[Shockandawe]

Hello Sam

She’s made of pretty tough stuff my sister lol.
She very often says if she can help only one person gain some understanding of the nightmare which is mlc then she has done something right.
I know she helps me daily and I will never be able to thank her enough.

God bless you all

Shock

[forthetrees]

For sure she has already accomplished that.

[Thunder]

Thank you Shock.

You have pretty special sister there.

Love to you both.   

[jacs]

As a newbie, your sister has given me the most invaluable insight. I'm not in a good place but it would be far worse without the insight your sister has given.  For that I will be forever grateful x

[megogirl]

The guy who killed my father, did so while my father was asleep. He smashed my father’s skull in with a huge rock.

He got involuntary manslaughter.

Terra, how is that even possible?

How could smashing someone's skull using a rock ever be considered "involuntary?"

[megogirl]

ShockSis

This was something busy_bee wrote about her ex.  It is short, succinct, and smart.

" What if I tell you that I felt NOTHING for my husband?
I wanted him to disappear
I wanted him to leave me alone
I wanted him to just go away and don't bother me
I didn't love him anymore and I was SURE i never will

Time.....

After 5 year
I'd give everything just for him to hold my hand
I'd give anything for him just to be with me
I'd give anything to get his attention

Does any of this sound familiar?

[Shockandawe]

Hi Mego

Yes that is exactly how it is.
MLC is a void. A big, black vacuum sucking every good feeling and emotion from you. It sucks them down into the depths of your soul and covers them in a deep blanket of fog.
It replaced the love I had and put hatred in its place. It took away my feelings and swapped them for a fake love. Fantasy replaced reality. Indifference followed.
Slowly reality crept in, bit by bit but a battle was raging between the real me and the movie star me.
Once I couldn’t fight back the reality it burst the dam wall and everything came crashing back through. Slowly I began to process the train wreck I had been the driver of and the full awfulness hit along with full awakening.
I knew I loved my ex h and still do.

[Bewildered survivor]

SS sorry if this has been asked already- I couldn’t find anything. Do you have much memory of when the fog started to descend and feelings of numbness towards your H started? Did you wake up one morning with no feelings or was it a gradual process? Did you have any awareness or clarity at the time and did you question how those feeling could just disappear? Or is that something you understand now in hindsight?

[megogirl]

ShockSis

Today marks 2 months since my XH "remarried", and I am now just trying to gauge what ran through his mind that day.

I just looked at the pictures again, and his eyes were indeed black and huge.  RCR has indicated that the "Prisoner" personality drives the affair.  But which personality drives a whole "re-marriage?"  Which personality donned his suit that day?  Which personality was standing for all of the pictures, complete with a minister?

And, why didn't he have a single "Pocket of clarity" throughout all of this?  (I suppose it's possible that he did have one, but just brushed it off.)

Just trying to make sense of the senseless

Thank you, mego xxx

[rosetintedglasses]

Been loving your input here Mego. Thanks for bringing that over from Bee’s thread. Great response Sis. Our issue Mego is that our MLCers are men and there’s a difference with men in MLC V female MLC (although there will be exceptions). It was a great read though.

Also liked this:

Just trying to make sense of the senseless

I too have been trying that and decided I need to stop trying to understand this and just accept it. I’ve been trying for years now and can’t understand it but it’s happening right under my nose so I may as well accept it and move on (with my thoughts). 

I just read stayeds Husbands letter again. It’s good as it’s a male MLC.  He says not to focus on them. When you do, it helps them continue with their fairytale life.

Rose 🌹

[megogirl]

Thanx for the shout, Rose xxx

I just read Stayed's Husbands letter again, too.  It's gold.  I have it printed out, and it's in my binder.

Male and female MLCs are different yes, but I've also found that their hallmarks are very, very similar.  For example, Stayed's H mentioned feeling as if he was "in a movie."  ShockSis reported the same - that she had a "movie star" persona, and life.

Obviously I follow the stories of recovered MLC'ers very, very closely.  Partly because our lives have been turned upside-down, and partly because I find the whole thing pretty fascinating.

[rosetintedglasses]

Male and female MLCs are different yes, but I've also found that their hallmarks are very, very similar.  For example, Stayed's H mentioned feeling as if he was "in a movie."  ShockSis reported the same - that she had a "movie star" persona, and life.

Obviously I follow the stories of recovered MLC'ers very, very closely.  Partly because our lives have been turned upside-down, and partly because I find the whole thing pretty fascinating.

Yes you’re right, it’s comforting reading that I think as it’s such an insight. I think that men can take longer, usually leave the house and don’t have the same connection with their friends as women do so when they eventually are ready to listen there’s not the same environment. Yes it’s fascinating, if it wasn’t so devastating I would love to know more. It’s healthier at my stage to focus on the fascination that is my children!

Rose 🌹

[megogirl]

Yes it’s fascinating, if it wasn’t so devastating I would love to know more. It’s healthier at my stage to focus on the fascination that is my children!

True dat....but it is my quest for S16 not to hail from a broken home that keeps me Standing.  So in an odd way, I AM focused on my child!

[rosetintedglasses]

Mego I also do not want my children from a broken home. I have realised this is out of my control however which I find very difficult but it is equally important to me that I raise my children with a feeling of security, and that they are important (H FOO issue) - this is within my control and therefore I will use 100% of my energy on that. A no anger, not bitter but fun environment for them to grow and thrive. With H having left, how my children turn out reflects on me.

Sorry Sis, back to you...

[Keep believing]

SS,
How did you feel when you would leave your Om after a weekend fling? My h actually has a ow in my town. like 4 blocks from me. We have been here for 20nyears, raised our children here. He and ow  actually go to parties directly across the street from me. Stays at ow house on weekends.  how can he possibly get up leave her house without thinking about us, his family? every time he leaves her place , I wonder if he thinks , "what am I doing"   I mean right here in a small town!!

[Keep believing]

A little of things going on,  He has reconnected with my boys 29, 23. My d 19 doesnt talk to him.  He has said a couple times, too much damage has been done. Whatever any of this means.One time he asked how do i fix this.   

[rosetintedglasses]

Sis

BD 3 years ago, H moved out 2 years ago.
He is now saying he will never come home as he doesn’t want to ever feel like he did again (he also has a OW2). So it’s like his memory of the last year or so of us living together was so bad (MLC) that he relates it to our marriage and won’t go back to that. Did you ever think like this? Or when you became properly aware was it obvious that although the end was bad that was not the marriage, that was your MLC?

In essence ‘I had a depressive crisis during my marriage, now I am happier so wont go back to my marriage in case I feel like that again’.

Hope that made sense!
Rose 🌹

[Keep believing]

What i am also asking  because of the comment he said there is too much damage..... has he had some sort of an awakening?

[Jackolar12]

What i am also asking  because of the comment he said there is too much damage..... has he had some sort of an awakening?

Hi KB,  My MLCer said words to this effect during the early days of bomb drop when her other man dumped her. She told her friend and her friend brought it up in conversation with me whilst out in a bar.

Her friend had suggested to her about us getting back together but she answered “ there’s too much water gone under the bridge”. I think they know the depth of pain they have inflicted on everyone despite the Fog and are just saying this as part of the MLC word salad.

[Cherry Blossom]

Hi KB,  My MLCer said words to this effect during the early days of bomb drop when her other man dumped her. She told her friend and her friend brought it up in conversation with me whilst out in a bar.

Her friend had suggested to her about us getting back together but she answered “ there’s too much water gone under the bridge”. I think they know the depth of pain they have inflicted on everyone despite the Fog and are just saying this as part of the MLC word salad.

My thinking on this is that they've already started the affair by the time BD comes round.  They won't admit it but they have been unfaithful and, I'd imagine that inside their heads at least, they've planned an alternate future/fantasy life with the OP.  That's maybe what they mean when they say it's all too broken?

[Anjae]

My thinking on this is that they've already started the affair by the time BD comes round.  They won't admit it but they have been unfaithful and, I'd imagine that inside their heads at least, they've planned an alternate future/fantasy life with the OP. 

In Mr J's case he has been involved with OW1 for months before he left (I have long forgot when BD was). He and her were writing to each other, planning their future life together that was going to last forever.

They never lived together and lasted some 15 or 18 months in the open.

For me the problem is not the original alienator, but that some MLCers have more than one alienator/keep having new people.

MLC reality is not always, alienator gone, MLCers crashes and burns, starts to see straing, wants to make ameds/come back. Often the MLCer just moves to a new alienator/person.

Thinking the break of the relationship with the original alienator always equals the end of Replay and the MLCer wanting back may lead a LBS to think that will always happen, when we have many stories on HS that prove otherwise.

[Essential]

I think so too Anjae. The positive thing to remind ourselves of here, is that this shows that the alienator is a symptom of the crisis.

[Cherry Blossom]

For me the problem is not the original alienator, but that some MLCers have more than one alienator/keep having new people.

Yes, this absolutely Amjae.  My exH was infatuated with his alienator/Catfish but all the while pursuing other women.  My W has her OW but the last few months every woman was attracted to her (in her head) - even a doctor she visited was flirting with her - allegedly.  The alienator and even OP 1, 2, 3 etc are not special.  They either realise and get out or are discarded for the next one...

[Couragedearheart]

Imo
Some people only discover the problem is them after repeatedly making the same mistakes. They have to fail at making themselves feel better with a fresh new shiny toy several times before they go.....what if the problem is me?

I just don’t think the number matters unless you were looking for a good gauge of cognitive dissonance, in which case I think the number is very relevant.

H has an old employee who is having a MLC....she’s currently on her 7th engagement in about 4 years, she’s never had one survive all the way to the marriage finish line....but remains undaunted.
3 weeks from meeting to engagement on the latest and greatest. 🤷‍♀️

[Anjae]

At least to me, the number matters. I'll explain. Tons of different women equal just that, tons of different women. No emotional attachment, no forming a lasting relationship.

2 or 3 or 4 OW/OM, or new woman/men (if the couple is long separated or divorced) with whom the MCLer forms a proper relationship is one more problem. More hurt, more issues, more people.

Your husband's colleague is different than Mr J, seems more like a single guy I know that is at the end of Replay.

Mr J spend 10 years with OW2. In 13 years there has been 3 women, the latest very recent. No one sees anything wrong with 3 women in 13 years, especially when one of them lasted 10 years.

He will never discover the problem. The number of women in 13 years is perfectly normal.

[Keep believing]

The subject got off track.
SS, can you explain ,why mlc will say this? Are most still in the fog with the comment of saying "There is too much damage" ? If they are in the fog, how  can they possibly know this? they really dont consider themselves in an affair or doing anything wrong?  if they are out of the fog , then i can understand this statement being said.

[Thunder]

Shocks sis,

Your thread has reached 150 posts, so if you could please start a new thread to answer these questions.  Thank you for being so helpful. 


New thread:  https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11137.0