Skip to main content

Author Topic: Off-Topic  Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2

  • *
  • Mentor
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 12318
  • Gender: Female
Previous thread:
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11420.0

I wish to thank Marvin for explaining many things about this virus and what can be done to help get this under control.

LP wrote some important things that I am bringing over from the last thread. I too am very frustrated by some behaviors and actions that put everyone at risk. I found some of LP's points very thought provoking.

It is helpful to me to be able to have these discussions so thank you for all who contribute their knowledge to help us better understand what are the best measures we can take as we move forward.

LP's post from the previous thread
Quote
Ah, so vaccine is considered part of creating herd immunity?  Rather than as the article indicated a separate approach to creating a group of people with immunity weeding out those who fall.

I have heard nothing about an at home test being developed as you describe.  In the Midwest I don't think that has been reported on widely.  I hear daily complaints from people as to how their rights are being infringed, how this is all a media overblown nonsense to threaten Trump's reelection, how those who disagree are crazy and unpatriotic, un-American.  I go to work and have to notify families of prisoners that their family member is sick or deceased but then answer phone calls from those who wish to file cases about the infringement of their rights to go fishing, to have a party, to run their non-essential business.  And calls complaining that if this were truly a crisis, the list of essential businesses would not be so extensive.  And the last few days the questions are coming on where to get malaria pills because Trump said he would take them perhaps.  And now the cases come from preachers who are demanding their right to hold Easter services since Trump said he was considering allowing services even though the state has already said absolutely not asking if this is religious persecution.

Truthfully, i would say I feel as if I'm back at home country with the propaganda, but then I can honestly say, in the home country at least we didnt/don't actually believe the propaganda even though we could repeat it as necessary.  The claims of my administration is great, I'm doing great, I have no responsibility for negatives, it's all someone else's fault, you must talk nicely to me to get what you want.  All that is familiar propaganda to those from my country, the cult of personality.  What concerns me is that a large number of people seem to believe blindly and have no ability to discern political propaganda.  In my country, as well, there is respect for scientists and professionals.  Here, I do not see that as necessarily true as I watch the tug of war between Trump and Fauci over the message.

My state county has 42 only positive but we have a low population of humans versus cows out here compared to the city.  Anyway, thank you for the discussion but I must get moving with my day. As always the more I learn the more I find out I really don't know much.
  • Logged
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

M
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 6859
  • Gender: Male
Thanks for starting this thread xyz and thanks to Marvin for his excellent, and IMO very accurate, explanations. Much better than a lot of the stuff I'm reading on some of the major news sites.
  • Logged

  • *
  • Mentor
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 4858
  • Gender: Male
  • Back to being #1 for my daughters!!!!
Xyzcf,

Thanks for starting a new thread. Stuck here at home and navigating technology that I never knew existed. Shared drives, my drive, Google meets, Google calendar. I can now set up a meeting, put it on Google Meets, invite my guests via email, and add an agenda to the invite. Wow! I can also record the meeting and save it to my drive or share it with whoever I want.

But person to person is still far better.

I also want to thank Marvin for his posts that provide research and science rather than hoopla.

Quote
Truthfully, i would say I feel as if I'm back at home country with the propaganda, but then I can honestly say, in the home country at least we didnt/don't actually believe the propaganda even though we could repeat it as necessary.  The claims of my administration is great, I'm doing great, I have no responsibility for negatives, it's all someone else's fault, you must talk nicely to me to get what you want.  All that is familiar propaganda to those from my country, the cult of personality.  What concerns me is that a large number of people seem to believe blindly and have no ability to discern political propaganda.  In my country, as well, there is respect for scientists and professionals.

I was in Vietnam in 2002 and you are right. The propaganda is there, but no one believes it. It is like taxes, it is there. Now, there are groups of people that feel this is a deliberate attempt to take away our freedoms and ruin our country based upon hoax. My parents started with this belief until I pointed out that they closed the casinos in Vegas and stopped all sports. I told my mom, "They don't shut down casinos and sports on a whim. It's one thing when poor people lose their jobs, quite another when rich people lose money. Remember, those rich people put those government leaders in office. This thing is real, and it is serious."

Guess it went in one ear and out the other. After my brother and I nixed the plan to return them from Texas by having me meet them in El Paso (800 mile drive), they have now purchased tickets on a train. They will have their own compartment car and will ride for 40 hours to get home.
Once again, my brother and I voiced our opposition to this plan, but we can't hold them hostage. They leave in a few hours. I am going to wish them the best and pray for their safety. We have such extremes, we have some people who will do anything to get out of their homes, and people who will do anything they can to get home. 

Well, I have stayed home. Exercised the best I can, and I have limited my trips to once a week to the store for essential items. I know we don't know much about the virus except when it gets into a home or family circle, it spreads quickly like a gas fire. Some people show little to no symptoms and others quickly succumb to it. Lots of ideas on why, but little chance to complete research.

Marvin is right, the vaccine will be the next answer, but it is at the shortest another year away. Of course, by the time it arrives, you will have the naysayers telling everyone not to get the vaccine as it is poison and more dangerous than the virus. Mark my words,

(((((Ready))))
  • Logged
"Always look in the mirror and love what you see."

  • *
  • Mentor
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 24015
  • Gender: Female
Oh I'm sorry to hear this Ready.  I hope their ok.  Their just exposing themselves to more people and more germs, but like you said, it was their decision and you can't stop them.

Are they taking a taxi to their home when they get there?
  • Logged
A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

m
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 967
  • Gender: Male
LP: the US is nowhere near the stage that Europe is approaching, which is how do we now lift restrictions yet maintain the infection rates at a rate not to overwhelm care. From what I see, US is in a complete wildfire mode with the virus due to the failure of the Federal government, no direct planning, and only what is not much more than haphazard and shifting guidance, and daily misinformation that contradicts science and facts. Compare that to the once or twice a day fact based updates here in UK, the fact that everything is decided by running daily models with updated data as it comes in from around the world, and you may see there is no comparison. What I fear is that the US will have two scenarios play out. In some States that are following protocol they will have a curve closer to Italy (because they all started too late, they were not warned). The other States where they are not doing this and people are still talking like its a hoax we may see what the virus will truly do in a "wildfire" scenario. In fact if you look at the fact that US has some of the lowest testing per capita (and started very late due to rejecting the test kits from overseas then developing a faulty one) we are blind.

Take Florida for example. Not enough testing, no real shutdown from State until a few days ago. The number of known cases is probably a tiny fraction of how many in the population are already exposed. Now over the next 2-4 weeks the wave will crest. US has been showing a doubling of cases every 2 to 3 days, which is very much like an uncontrolled geometric growth. By contrast Spain is now showing a 3% increase per day. Think about the difference, and Spain was not one of the countries that fared well.

Also add to that countries with centralized single payer healthcare coordinate their efforts. They can shift and move resources. In UK they have set up thousands of makeshift hospitals they call "Nightingales" and they are recalling retired or left NHS staff in a coordinated fashion. London was the first hotspot, but it looks like it has turned around. If its the case the resources will most likely be moved north as it is lagging in its spread timing. In the US various states are having to fight over same respirator and supplies by bidding up pricing, and Federal government is bidding against them. In Europe they are doing coordinate purchasing across all countries. Now in US they announced a stockpile of a medication that no one has shown yet to be effective. Why? The real scientists and experts have no idea. Even the 200K death number that they are saying is being questioned because there is model or data shared. It could be actually thought out or it could be made up, no one knows. The misinformation is much more like propaganda than a coordinate flow of up to date information.

I fear that this will throw a direct light on all the fractures and non functioning parts of our health care system. We pretend it's working by obfuscation, and it may be very hard to do that now.

As I said before one of the most interesting things to look at is why Germany has such low rates of fatalities for ICU admission, even compared to rest of Europe. In UK it is around 50%, if you keep in mind that ICU admission is already the very small subset that are going to end up in the mortality rates (not to be mistaken with the 1% rate of overall infections). In Germany I believe its around 15%. In UK by their actions it looks like they may not exceed 50% capacity, and it doesn't look like Germany will either. Yes in US as the wave peaks we may have completely crushed our capacity. I hope not, because if we have a lot of people will die needlessly.
  • Logged
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

M
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 6859
  • Gender: Male
The numbers for new hospital admissions and new ICU admissions in NY dropped again yesterday to about 1/3 of what they were a few days ago.

Some Eurpoean countries are also reporting better numbers.

I traded some bonds for some stocks this morning.
  • Logged

  • *
  • Mentor
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 4858
  • Gender: Male
  • Back to being #1 for my daughters!!!!
Hello,

Quote
Are they taking a taxi to their home when they get there?

No, a close friend is picking them up and dropping them off at home. Once home, they will be in the middle of nowhere and should be safe.

Ready
  • Logged
"Always look in the mirror and love what you see."

  • *
  • Mentor
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 24015
  • Gender: Female
I'm so glad to hear that, Ready.  I'm sure they will be able to relax once their in their home. 
  • Logged
A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

  • *****
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 13334
  • Gender: Male
"The people who have had Covid 19 and have recovered are now immune."

Do we know this?  I'm not certain.  I read an article that in China a reasonably concerning percentage of those who had tested negative after having the virus became re-infected when returned to daily life conditions living among others who were positive. 

IMHO this will depend on whether the virus mutates or remains the same.

It is a HORRIBLE strain and there is a good chance it WILL mutate,
so people would then be reinfected with a different virus but would be immune to the original one.
  • Logged

  • *
  • Mentor
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 12318
  • Gender: Female
Quote
It is a HORRIBLE strain and there is a good chance it WILL mutate,
so people would then be reinfected with a different virus but would be immune to the original one.

We are still learning a lot about this virus and will be for sometime...which is why the information that we gave to people a month ago has changed.

What I am presently reading, is that the scientists have not seen signs of the virus mutating, which is a good thing. They cannot say with 100% certainty that once infected you will not get it again, because they are still obtaining data.

I think that the chances are good that immunity does occur.

Time will tell and it's too soon to say for sure this will happen.
  • Logged
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 1315
  • Gender: Female
"Curt Landry, a pastor based in Fairland, Oklahoma, can certainly be considered to be a true believer in the President. During a recent web based sermon, Landry told his viewers to listen to Trump’s advice over that of experts like Dr. Anthony Fauci, because Trump has “God’s authority.”"

Hmmm...
  • Logged
if people won’t listen to you, there’s no point in talking to people. If they won’t listen, you’re just banging your head against a wall.

Sadly Ive used up all the time I had allotted to spend banging my head on the wall

  • *
  • Mentor
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 24015
  • Gender: Female
 ::)
  • Logged
A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 12531
  • Gender: Female
"Curt Landry, a pastor based in Fairland, Oklahoma, can certainly be considered to be a true believer in the President. During a recent web based sermon, Landry told his viewers to listen to Trump’s advice over that of experts like Dr. Anthony Fauci, because Trump has “God’s authority.”"

Hmmm...

Oh my days....... ??? Well, I'm sure he just went to the top of Mr Trump's Christmas Card list.
Did they not used to say that about monarchs before they sent them to the guillotine etc....?
  • Logged
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.


"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

m
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 967
  • Gender: Male
Just saw this which is interesting. This study (very small test really) showed that neither surgical nor cotton masks significantly reduced the expulsion of Covid-19 virus during coughs when worn by infected people. Essentially most of the droplets and virus pretty much went through the masks unfiltered compared to wearing no mask. They did not test N95 masks.

I hate to say it and people should follow the advice given by the medical authorities of each country as data and studies constant bring new info, but if this is true then have everyone wear masks to prevent spread by transmitters is not very effective. Essentially surgical and cotton masks only provided minor reduction in virus counts (2.56 log copies/mL for no mask, 2.42 log copies/mL for surgical mask,  and 1.85 cotton masks).

It says nothing about virus spread when just breathing heavily, which I believe is one of the suspected modes of spread for asymptomatic people.

Nevertheless it emphasizes to me that masks are not a panacea for healthy or not at risk population and using them without guidance just takes them away from people who need to use them.

They did however say this: “ We do not know whether masks shorten the travel distance of droplets during coughing.” They did not test this aspect of wearing a mask.

https://annals.org/aim/fullarticle/2764367/effectiveness-surgical-cotton-masks-blocking-sars-cov-2-controlled-comparison

  • Logged
« Last Edit: April 07, 2020, 01:16:17 AM by marvin4242 »
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 1315
  • Gender: Female
Good Morning,

My happy moment was reading about 2 Pandas that finally mated after 10 years of attempts.  It seems the male had performance anxiety issues because he wasn't successful until the zoo was closed to the public and he had some privacy.  That caused me quite a giggle.

And I saw some lovely pictures of dolphins in canals with clear water since humans aren't polluting the canals, as well as air pollution decreasing across areas in India.

News story here was we had 20 positive and 2 deaths, our biggest day ever and public health is now publicising zip codes with numbers positive.  All on the side of town that is low income, minority, and where the housing projects are located.  It's also where social distancing is not being observed, kids are out playing on the playgrounds, over the weekend 2 parties of over 300 people were broken up and a bunch of guys were out playing basketball so police were called in to disperse them and shots were fired.

And so feeds racism rapidly growing around here

As to masks, we are seeing more people wearing them.  Because we are an industrial area more people have stockpiles of N95 because a lot of jobs out here use them in production.  I wore mine and felt almost bulletproof, irrational as that is and had to reinstall myself in.

Wisconsin is voting in person today.  It is expected their positives will grow after this.  Wisconsin is just 15 miles from me. 

And Trump says he will not wear a mask...Well I'm sure if he becomes positive, he will have a working ventilator and no rationing of care.

Off to work now.  Its my turn to go in.  I better be thankful as one of our biggest manufacturers just now announced layoffs because the federal government has failed to pay on its contracts for aerospace project and the supply chain is in shambles.  300 more out of work. 

Lp
  • Logged
if people won’t listen to you, there’s no point in talking to people. If they won’t listen, you’re just banging your head against a wall.

Sadly Ive used up all the time I had allotted to spend banging my head on the wall

F
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 1260
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#15: April 07, 2020, 09:58:13 AM
Goodness, I cannot even imagine the level of stress our representatives are under.  They are being attacked on all sides by everyone who thinks they could have done it better.  Of course easy to think when we do not have the weight of the world on our shoulders.  So instead of uniting around our leadership, people are complaining, picking them apart and in many situations making a bad situation worse.  Or at least that is the case with the news.

From my vantage point 99 percent of our hospitals are functioning perfectly, though emptied out waiting to see if there is an influx of corona patients.  We have a few hotspots in the US(where hospitals are overflowing), but they are becoming contained.  The US is not a nation used to being told what to do, so no surprise it has spread worse here, and yet we are handling the outbreak well in the majority of places.  We have many more beds per capita than anywhere in the world. 

Everyday life here seems to be very united and community minded.  Everyone doing their part.  I believe NYC is supposed to hit their peek this week.  The US’s most recent projections are better than what was reported last week.  The poorer areas seem to be hit harder.  Maybe more crowded living conditions are the reason.
.
  • Logged
« Last Edit: April 07, 2020, 09:59:53 AM by Finding Joy »
Married 23 years
Husband is 46
Me-42
4 kids 9-18 years old
BD-October 2018-ILYBNIL, wants a divorce, 2 OW at different times.
April 2019 He got an apartment and moved out.
Oct 2019-Apologized for a years worth of monster behavior.  Still wants to start divorce this Spring, is distant, but friendly.  Tries more with kids, but superficial.
2020-He has continued to help out when asked and be polite.  I do think he questions his choices at times.  I do not believe he has OW.
Oct 2020-He wants to get back together.  I am unsure. 
August 2021-.  He has shown very gradual, but consistent progress.  He moved back home.
December 2022-He has been home for 1 1/2 years reconnecting, in the room with me for several months. I now consider us reconciled.
October 2023-After two years home and being the man he should be, I finally fully let him back into my heart.

W
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 3568
  • Gender: Male
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#16: April 08, 2020, 01:22:41 AM
Thanks for starting this thread xyz, i started the First but havent been around much since. I have Read the First thread though and it was GREAT... some awesome Comments.
Take Care all and Stay safe, all is "Good" in Sunny Germany for now .
  • Logged
Married - 19,5 Years pre BD
Together - 21,5 Years
Me: 46
W: 46 (Acts 25)
BD 1: 10.01.2017
BD 2: 24.02.2017 OM 28 (now 31) Trainings partner. Is tolerated by LaFamiglia
2 Sons - 20 & 21
1 Dogs and a cat.
Own home . Sold!
Divorce Date 21.08.2018
T1  http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8671.0

m
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 967
  • Gender: Male
I was reading a couple of articles on modeling around the world, why there are so many different numbers being thrown around and wanted to share a thought. Beware of the fear mongering that sometimes goes on, specially in how US media reports information. Dramatic headlines get more reads. I am not saying the media is at all lying (well I am only taking about the real journalistic ones). More what I am saying is that there are different models out there, and none of them are anywhere near perfect yet. Different groups use different assumptions, and they feed different data in. In modeling as more and more data comes in the prediction ranges, which can start out VERY large about disease and death prediction, narrows the more into the curve a country goes. So initially you may see a headline that says “as many as xxx may die!” What they may be is one worst case scenario of one model. Another may try to downplay and say “only yyy will die,” and that may the one of the best case scenarios of another model. Statisticians and experts know the models are guesstimates, and they may have extreme numbers at the edges. They don’t view it as the truth, rather a useful guide. But when this is reduced to a simple headline it can (appropriately) cause fear and panic.

Also when people are confused about why advice is suddenly changed (like in UK) it may be from new data coming in. For example from what I read the advice in UK was made more stricter as more data came in from Italy from real life cases, and a paper was published showing a much higher rate of asymptomatic spread than previously guesstimated. These changes showed a different potential set of results, which led to the stricter rules.

What I am saying is try to look behind the reduced headlines when you see “projections” into what may happen. Obviously it makes more sense to be extra cautious than cavalier if you are policy maker. But please don’t take shifting models or shifting strategies as we have more concrete data as a lack of knowledge. This does not apply when policy makers are actively lying and rejecting advice from experts, that is just criminal and careless negligence.

There was a great quote in a Guardian article that I love:

Never have the words of the British statistician George Box rung truer than in this pandemic: “All models are wrong, but some are useful.”
  • Logged
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 12531
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#18: April 08, 2020, 03:27:38 AM
Good reminder, Marvin. As you say models are built on both data and assumptions......if either change, then so does the model. Most of us have at best creaky recollections of studying subjects with stats and models, so it is easy to forget that and easy to infer blame or spin when models evolve. A guesstimate, a guide, a pattern....yes.....a take it to the bank fixed outcome....no.

Anyone else find Mr Trump's communication style quite MLCish in flavour? (Not saying he's an MLCer lol....he is whatever he has always been I think.) But those big statements of I'm gonna do x bc y....followed by denial he said what he literally just said or deflecting to another topic or blaming the questioner....lots of words but not much meaning to hear if that makes sense. And no strong link really between words and next steps, but lots and lots of emotion. I do wonder sometimes if those poor WH reporters also start to crave a little NC bc it must feel a bit odd just like it does for us with MLCish communication, at least initially :) :)

Chatting to a chum yesterday about how interesting seemingly dull things are when you stop to look more closely at them and how lots of us are doing that about lots of different things now. As an example, a nice bit of reporting about TP  :) https://www.msnbc.com/all-in/watch/the-truth-about-the-toilet-paper-shortage-81759813784
  • Logged
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.


"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

  • *****
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 13334
  • Gender: Male
Some things I learned in college a long time ago.

GIGO = Garbage in Garbage Out.
Most of these models do not have good data and therefore do not give accurate results.


Treasur, as far as Mr Trump's style of communication goes, he is from Queens NY.
They all talk this way and really it is just the way he was brought up and speaks.
The American media kills him for it, and that translates into the way the rest of the world views him too.

I guess my comment is follow his actions not his words.
  • Logged
« Last Edit: April 08, 2020, 05:05:31 AM by OldPilot »

A
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 4249
  • Gender: Female

Treasur, as far as Mr Trump's style of communication goes, he is from Queens NY.
They all talk this way and really it is just the way he was brought up and speaks.
The American media kills him for it, and that translates into the way the rest of the world views him too.


OP - as you know - I am from NYC - and intimately familiar with how people here speak.
It is highly inaccurate to say that Trump's style of communication is due to the fact he was brought up in Queens.
Many of my friends were brought up in Queens - and though my job I have communicated with many people in Queens.  People in Queens are most certainly capable of proper speech - and I find it insulting to characterize all residents of Queens this way.  I don't think Treasur was commenting on Trump's regional accent.  I think she was addressing the issue of Trump contradicting himself and denying facts.  She is also spot on when noticing that when asked a question he does not like - the president will blame or ridicule the question or the reporter.  It is a childish and rather obvious way of not answering a question. 





  • Logged

  • *
  • Mentor
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 12318
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#21: April 08, 2020, 06:22:48 AM
Here is something that might help if you contract the virus:
Breathing technique for Corona Virus

youtu.be/HwLzAdriec0  via @YouTube
 

Here are DR. Munshi's instructions:
•   Take a deep breath in.
•   At the end of it, hold your breath for five seconds, then release.
•   Do this five times — five breaths total.
•   Next, take a sixth deep breath in, then at the end of it cough strongly — covering your mouth when you do so.
•   The six breaths plus cough at the end represent once cycle. Repeat this cycle twice.
Munshi then instructed patients to lie on their stomach on a bed, taking slightly deeper breaths than normal for the next 10 minutes. “The majority of your lung is on your back, not on your front,” Munshi said in the video. “So by lying on your back, you’re closing off more of the smaller airways and this is not good during the period of infection.

I really think that is would be best to NOT embark on a political discussion about Mr. Trump's capabilities on this forum. There is such a complete divison about this person...we are dealing with so much right now, perhaps best not to bring this topic here.
  • Logged
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 1315
  • Gender: Female
Yes, Trump was born in Queens.  But I fail to see how that translates to her point that:

"But those big statements of I'm gonna do x bc y....followed by denial he said what he literally just said or deflecting to another topic or blaming the questioner"

Either he said the words or he didn't as far as I can tell is the factual issue.

Now as to actual style, I am not bothered in the least if his style were just coarser and blunter than other leaders style.  By that measure, of being born in Queens, I should have apparently been born in Queens and then people could have excused my communication style rather than some complaining they felt attacked I guess.  And that would make me very happy!

As to uniting and supporting the President in a time of crisis, it varies with vantage point.  What one sees from a limited vantage point is not what another sees as noted.  But there is a difference between blind unquestioning loyalty and earned and deserved loyalty. 
I come from a long line of military service, government service, years of being a Marine wife and yet I do not like my President denying he said something when it is taped.  I do not like when he encourages more of a cult of personality than a reliance on scientific data and facts.  That tastes like too much of the country we fled than the America we were promised.  Yes, the leaders are under pressure, but that is exactly the job they chose.  No one excused my husband when he was fighting in Iraq or Afghanistan or other areas because he was under pressure.  Had he lied or risked lives unnecessarily or relied on feeling over data or been unwilling to admit mistakes he would not have been excused or his men blindly follow him and support him.  An example.

I hope for no less from the leader of this country. 

And would happily unite and support him if that were so or becomes so.  Now is not the time for showmanship, for ego, for silly Twitter comments, for arguing fault or blaming predecessors or political parties or re-writing codes and job descriptions of federal responsibility vs state responsibility or Congressional control vs Presidential powers or firing those who don't show blind loyalty.

The measure should be what he does to fix this, to move forward, to lead the country, to unify the country.  That's his job, the job he chose.  And that part is what remains to be seen.  Too bad it is difficult and or stressful.

Excuses and deflecting blame are for MLCERS, for those too immature to accept responsibility and too weak to own responsibility.  We here should have all learned by now that actions of the past can't be undone, that excuses are enabling, that the only way forward is to actually face forward and move, that words without actions are meaningless, that plans require follow through. We perhaps should have also learned to think about who receives our loyalties.

I hope and pray Trump and our political leaders can do this.  But as of now I have concerns.  I also hope people remember the phrase, trust but verify.  After all that phrase became popular under a Republican President. 

Just my opinion,

Lp

  • Logged
if people won’t listen to you, there’s no point in talking to people. If they won’t listen, you’re just banging your head against a wall.

Sadly Ive used up all the time I had allotted to spend banging my head on the wall

  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 1315
  • Gender: Female

I really think that is would be best to NOT embark on a political discussion about Mr. Trump's capabilities on this forum. There is such a complete divison about this person...we are dealing with so much right now, perhaps best not to bring this topic here.

Terribly sorry, I missed your post when I posted.  I would agree.

And thank you for the breathing advice.

I read an article about how the virus tries to create plug like things in the lungs.  Those with the plugs seem to need ventilator more than those that don't.  Keeping moving and exercising lungs helps to prevent those plugs by keeping stuff moving in the lungs.

Note that I'm not a medical professional.  Plugs is just what the pictures looked like to me.  Maybe corks is better picture word.  So perhaps I'm not understanding the intricacies well.  There was a bunch of talk about some substance that makes a lung elastic as well which seems to make one able to cough correctly. 

Lp
  • Logged
if people won’t listen to you, there’s no point in talking to people. If they won’t listen, you’re just banging your head against a wall.

Sadly Ive used up all the time I had allotted to spend banging my head on the wall

m
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 967
  • Gender: Male
More interesting information from a couple of new studies (reported from The Guardian, haven't found the original publication yet, sorry).

First is that there seems to be an emerging consensus that the spread of Coronavirus is more in clusters of social interaction rather than broad spread in public. That spread via touch on surfaces, tablets, etc is not the primary driver of the spread, rather groups in close contact for periods of time (like churches, concerts, or gatherings) are how clusters are formed. Then everyone going back from the event causes a spread into their social circles (families, friends, workplaces). So its more "loops" of clusters than a curve as everyone in public thinks spreading out. If you can stop and track clusters you can break the infection spread. This really does mean that we should continue to not allow large public gatherings (including church services) until there is vaccination and other treatments. But if this holds true then casual daily contact is not as big a driver as we may think. Please keep in mind this is all early ideas but may shape policy once we are past the initial lockdown.

Second is a more detailed analysis of one cluster shows interesting resutls. One that got reported today is about a detailed study of a cluster in Germany that they call "Germany's Wuhan." After interviewing and testing 1000 people there the thought is it started in a Carnival event on 15 February where there were people in close contact. They did not find that it was from dishwashers or touch contact, but there was a lot of performances and activity and close contact. People mingled, pecks on the cheek are norm and the one male performer at the event was the first to be admitted to hospital. But the final numbers they got from the analysis is that 14% of the population had developed immunity (they had expected 5% which I believe means more people were asymptomatic or fought off the infection but were exposed that initially thought). Also the fatality in the area recalculated was 0.37%, compared to what Johns Hopkins estimated the rate in Germany is (1.98%). So either that region was very different than the guestimate or the bigger guestimate numbers are still incomplete due to "missing" infected people. My guess (not based on sold data to be clear) is the final fatality numbers will be well below 1%.

The examples given were an evangelical pray-in attended by 2000 people in France, Germany Heinsberg carnival (case above), Australia Bondi beach party where 30 people became infected, a funeral of a man who had been infected in Italy, and Mardi Gras in New Orleans and the close social contact and sharing cups.
  • Logged
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

M
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 3809
  • Gender: Female
I have a couple of questions that I have been wondering about and although there might not be anyone here who can answer them, maybe someone has heard or read stuff that could be useful.

When someone is asymptomatic, does that mean that they are in effect sick for say a period of 14 days even though you couldn't tell?  What I mean is this, is someone asymptomatic a risk factor for spreading the disease only while they are 'sick?' or are they healthy carriers of the virus for ever like some people carry the Meningitis bacteria in their throats?

Also, once there is a vaccine, can everyone have it, even those who might have had the virus without knowing it?
  • Logged
Married 1989, together since 1984 
BD May 2014,
D26, D23, S16
OW Physical Affair same one. He and she said she turned 34 the month of BD. She turned 52 this year.

m
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 967
  • Gender: Male
Milly these are educated guesses and information I have read:

Asymptomatic means they are indeed spreaders of the virus. Their immune system may be preventing them from having symptoms but they are "shedding" the virus. Without coughing (which is a symptom) the shedding has to be from breathing, so may require closer contact. But like a normal sick/recovery they will stop after they fight off the virus. It may be best to think of them as sick but with to external symptoms (or mild ones they don't register like loss of smell). I know places that have clampdown are now focused much more on asymptomatic transmission and initially it wasn't realized how much of a role they may play in spread. But in a way this is not different than someone in the first 2-3 days of being infected when they show no symptoms but still can spread the virus by similar means.

Anyone can have the vaccine. If you already had the virus (with or without symptoms) your immune system has learned the "fingerprint" and will fight it off. The vaccine simply teaches your immune system the fingerprint, and seeing it again will not really be that different than being exposed to it when you have immunity.

Hope that helps.
  • Logged
« Last Edit: April 09, 2020, 04:55:14 AM by marvin4242 »
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

M
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 3809
  • Gender: Female
Great answers, Marvin! Thank you so much!
  • Logged
Married 1989, together since 1984 
BD May 2014,
D26, D23, S16
OW Physical Affair same one. He and she said she turned 34 the month of BD. She turned 52 this year.

  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 1315
  • Gender: Female
Last night on the news there was a story about a new drug that would make the virus unable to adhere to lung tissue that sounded promising.  Human trials will begin soon.  That's an interesting approach to combating the virus.  Not a cure or eradication, but essentially taking the biggest threat from the virus, making it more manageable and a quicker return to normal living therefore.

As well the news ran a story from the federal government that said the virus was brought to the US by people returning from Europe, (Italy and Germany in the beginning).  The State Department announced they repatriated over 50,000 Americans since this began with travel restrictions.  There are still more coming back in the next days)weeks as plans are made for hard to reach areas.  Several Americans were just brought back from deep in the Amazon jungle for example. 

We now have virus in 2 of our nursing homes. The county published no new numbers yesterday so half think the worst and half think the best. 

Lp
  • Logged
if people won’t listen to you, there’s no point in talking to people. If they won’t listen, you’re just banging your head against a wall.

Sadly Ive used up all the time I had allotted to spend banging my head on the wall

N
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 887
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#29: April 09, 2020, 06:05:42 AM
Quote
We now have virus in 2 of our nursing homes. The county published no new numbers yesterday so half think the worst and half think the best. 


Oh dear.  I think it’s a catastrophe in nursing homes.  Donthe staff live in I wonder?
  • Logged

  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 1315
  • Gender: Female
Good evening,

The one home is for Alzheimer's patients.  Quite a disaster there as no way to enforce social distancing or hygiene like masks and covering ones mouth.  About 80 residents live there and staff is poorly paid, not living there.

On the positive side, only 3 new cases in the county.  A "super spreader" was identified and quarantined.  Seems he is responsible for a large circle of infections in Chicago.  One of those he infected, infected someone out here and on it went.  He had no idea, just thought he had a 2 day cold.  Amazing. 

Out here we are a large supplier of plasma.  For those who don't know this is a way poor people make money.  One can donate plasma twice a week for $50 a session.  Hundreds of people show up daily to donate for the money, most who it's their only source of cash income.  It's also a great way to get screened for diseases like HIV/Aids for free.  Anyway, donation centers have been closed since the virus outbreak.  But now, it seems the state will maybe reopen the centers because they want to collect plasma from those who have recovered to see if there are some sort of antibodies or such in the plasma that can be used to treat others or make a vaccine or something similar as I sort of understand it.  Turnout is expected to be good since those who are regular donors by and large live in the zip codes with the highest rates of infection out here and are also those most likely to be out of work in service type jobs currently and so need the money.

On Facebook on the post advertising for the donations, people are giggling that the drug addicts and prostitutes will finally earn some respect and save the lives of those who socially distanced from them and looked down on them all these years. 

Perhaps that's fitting during this Easter season.

Lp
  • Logged
if people won’t listen to you, there’s no point in talking to people. If they won’t listen, you’re just banging your head against a wall.

Sadly Ive used up all the time I had allotted to spend banging my head on the wall

m
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 967
  • Gender: Male
For those of you who are interested and haven’t seen this yet it is a good video about food safety and what you should and shouldn’t be worried about if you are trying to stay away from Covid-19.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=773&v=_vhx5RM41Pk&feature=emb_logo
  • Logged
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

N
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 887
  • Gender: Female

  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 12531
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#33: April 16, 2020, 01:25:18 AM
Iirc, she comes from a scientific profession originally? Yes, admirably clear way of describing how and why reducing the spread matters. And why small changes compound into the difference between manageable and not. Rather like Gov Cuomos recent briefings about the use of masks and the criteria for any phased reopening of economic activity. There is something admirable and reassuring about a balance of honesty, empathy and clear-eyed no BS problem solving that we need in our leaders right now isn't there?
  • Logged
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.


"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

m
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 967
  • Gender: Male
Angela Merkel is impressive indeed and really shines a light on the power of intelligent, educated and rational leadership. And unlike some countries her handling of the situation has resulted in her approval rating (and her parties) to skyrocket and approval of far right parties to fall.

From her Wikipedia page.: She obtained a doctorate in quantum chemistry in 1986 and worked as a research scientist until 1989.

Edit: found this interesting article

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/04/16/europe/merkel-trump-germany-federalism-analysis-intl/index.html
  • Logged
« Last Edit: April 16, 2020, 02:58:58 AM by marvin4242 »
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

m
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 967
  • Gender: Male
I know this thread has been inactive, but I wanted to post some information here rather than pollute other threads.

First here is the current state of testing per capita around the world. This is the only measure that means something, total tests is irrelevant as it doesn't represent the size of the country. Granted it is harder for larger countries because they need more tests, but they also usually have more capacity, resources, labs, etc. US is current ranked #18 with only 1.03% testing rate, compared to countries that are at least double that. Also experts are guessing the US test rate needs to be 3x current level before US can "reopen" whatever that means exactly.

https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1251216765893455875/photo/1

Second is a bit of good news, preliminary results (note: preliminary) in Remdesivir trials are showing positive results in fever and respiratory symptoms. If it holds up in the longer term of the study it should be a very good tool in both preventing deaths and shortening the duration of hospital stays.
  • Logged
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

  • *
  • Mentor
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 12318
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#36: April 18, 2020, 06:10:15 AM
Marvin, please do continue to share information with us. Sometimes the media is just overwhelming with so many different "opinions"

Lately I question the endless need for the stories of individuals who have been really really sick, or individuals who have died...not because I don't care about them, but it skews the information that many others do get better...and perhaps makes us more afraid then necessary. I think I would be happier just to know the number of cases and deaths.

The measures are working but the talk now is at what cost? People were willing perhaps to social distance for a couple of weeks, but many feel this is an infringement on their rights. Very few people have the financial resources to be able to feed and house themselves without a paycheck. And things are becoming very divided. At a protest recently, to be allowed to stop the stay at home orders, protesters were waving Confederate flags.....and I wonder, what do Confederate flags have to do with a public health emergency such a s this? Other than to cause people to be against one another in a time when we really have to rally together.

Because the models are not always correct, people start to lose their trust in what the science is saying. We are also impatient for a cure or vaccine, not understanding why or how it takes so long. If we cannot obtain enough swabs for testing, what will it be like to obtain enough vaccine and syringes and people to administer the vaccine when it becomes available?

I watched Bill Maher last night and his interview with Andrew Sullivan and it spoke very deeply to me. Andrew Sullivan is a reporter. Due to his medical condition, he is more at risk if he gets COVID and so he is strictly isolated, totally alone in his home. He spoke about the need for human companionship, for human touch and how long can people withstand the total loss of contact with others?

For those of us who live alone, this is a real and terribly "cruel" part of the crisis. I see my friends wave to me as they walk by my house with their husbands, husbands who go and do all the shopping because they do not want their wives to take any risks, husbands who prepare food and sit down with you to watch a tv show or play a game of cards, husbands who will be there if you get COVID.

I thought I had done a good job of accepting that I am a single woman, I was content if not totally satisfied with my lot in life. But now, I am faltering. I know this will end and I am really fortunate in many ways...but Andrew's rawness when he spoke about how much he craved human contact spoke deeply to me.

There are so many costs of this crisis.....
  • Logged
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 12531
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#37: April 18, 2020, 07:51:48 AM
I rather like https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/ for the bare numbers and patterns, I must admit.

And wouldn't it be great if trials do indeed throw up some solid treatment options, Marvin. It seems to me that we all need a little humility in accepting the real limits of our current knowledge of how this virus works and how to address it. Tbh I see some of the public discussions as a kind of (understandable) collective trauma response where we are all tempted to focus on 'totems' like ventilators or testing. Which is not to say these issues are unimportant, just that they are not perhaps the magic fix that so many of us (understandably) crave. Certainly I see the discussions (and blame) about testing here  in the UK as being a bit of a broad swathe where more testing=good.....but without necessairily looking at the practical issues of what different kinds of testing actually does or does not do for different issues and at different stages in the progression of the virus. We are all still working stuff out, I think......

Thank you too xyz for your honest comment about how you feel sometimes. I'm sure you are not alone and I guess all of us are finding a way to acknowledge the emotions we feel. Much of what you said rang loudly with me. In fact, I had a bleh start to my day bc I felt things that I didn't quite know what to do with......fortunately a tearful call to a friendly LBS helped tremendously. Pain really isn't a competitive sport is it? And some of our sorrows and fears are not irrational at all. Like you, I have found that this situation underlines my feeling of aloneness and perhaps abandonment or loss. Like you, I don't resent that others have a hand to hold, a person in their life for whom their wellbeing matters.....in fact, I take a kind of solace in all those acts of kindness and love....but it does put into a kind of mental bold text that this used to be true for me and now it is not. And sometimes that hurts.
  • Logged
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.


"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

  • *
  • Mentor
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 4858
  • Gender: Male
  • Back to being #1 for my daughters!!!!
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#38: April 18, 2020, 07:52:14 AM
Hello,

For all of those wondering, my parents are at their home and are doing fine. I am home and dealing with the impact of the virus on our students and their future education. I am also worried about the long term economic impact on families as well.

Quote
but it skews the information that many others do get better...and perhaps makes us more afraid then necessary.

Quote
US is current ranked #18 with only 1.03% testing rate, compared to countries that are at least double that. Also experts are guessing the US test rate needs to be 3x current level before US can "reopen" whatever that means exactly.

Xyzcf, you are absolutely correct that many people do get better, but due to the lack of tests, we are not testing people to confirm recovery.

Without the ability to test quickly with fast results, we are forced to cast a wider net in our attempts to suppress the spread. For example South Korea is still dealing with the crisis, but have far fewer cases each day and far less deaths. First, the quickly sealed the border and made all new arrivals test and quarantine. Then they began a massive testing program in the country. At one point, it appeared that they were going to explode, but by testing and following up with more testing, they isolated all the people that came in contact with infected people and were able to isolate quickly. The country is open and still working. Now, they learned a lot from SARS which caught them by surprise. With Covid-19, they were in a much better place with plans and training.

The US started sealing the border, but the order was poorly implemented and confusing. The initial testing was poor, controlled by CDC and took a long time for results and those results were faulty at best. Now we have spread across the entire country, it requires drastic actions. Once we get past this first wave in the next month, we need to be in a better place to test and test quickly. Far better to shut down one business or school for two to three weeks than the entire community.

I do understand the frustrations of the protesters, but the states and local governments they are protesting against are going to suffer much more than the federal government. I live near Disneyland. The loss of tax revenue from that one business is going to resonate for months. All the loss of revenue from restaurants, hotels, and other service industries will be felt for the next two years. Until we get the facts and are able to draw strong conclusions rather than anecdotal observations, we all are going to be in the dark and feeling the impact.

Finally, there is so many unknowns at this point due to limited research. For example, most viral infections hit the young particularly hard as well as the very old. Besides immune system, what about the proteins in the lungs of the young help fight the infection? I think when we test for antibodies, we are going to find that a large number of children had the virus.

Does a recovered person have built in immunity? No research to support this at this time.
Can the virus remain dormant in an infected person only to return years if not decades later ?(Chicken Pox and Polio)
What are the long term health impact on serious cases to other organs in the body?

Lots of questions and concerns as we navigate this threat.

((((Ready))))

  • Logged
"Always look in the mirror and love what you see."

m
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 967
  • Gender: Male
First there have been a great deal of studies and there are a lot already ongoing. The amount and rate of we are learning for a new disease is not only unprecedented it is staggering. We are learning more and more every day, adjusting what we do. And we have never in the history of history been able to do and learn so much in so little time. One of the most interesting factoids is that some of this is thanks to the human genome project, where we discovered how to sequence genes so much more rapidly and cheaply. Which means our understanding of the virus has been very good. The world is sharing data, coordinating and mostly viewing this as a global problem. Again US is the one exception in the western countries. We call it “the foreign” or “Chinese” virus like it has nationality.

As for closing borders there have been mathematical models that show that closing borders doesn’t work because “internal” spread becomes dominant very quickly. I can’t find the study I read, but the number of “local” cases in a country before closing borders become ineffective is amazingly small, it is in the hundreds. So by the time you even realize it no longer matters. Its mainly for show. That is unless you manage to contain your own outbreak (suppression, which only a few countries managed to do) then close the borders to make sure it is not reintroduced. That ship said in the US and most countries a long time ago.

RTFM: it is true we will still learn a lot more, but the media and the “exception cases” as xyzcf pointed out makes it seem like we don’t know certain things. We know immunology and immune systems very well. We have not done studies but the basic numbers show there has to be acquired immunity, otherwise families would continue to re-infect each other and we would see staggering numbers. The media reports cases where we either think someone was reinfected or test was incomplete, but this is something like maybe a couple of hundred out of at this point millions of cases around the word. The first basic thing that is confusing to most is this basic truth:

EXCEPTIONS DO NOT INVALIDATE THE RULE.

Essentially this means if there are some people who are indeed reinfected and we don’t know why it doesn’t mean we don’t have immunity. If that number was 50% of cases then maybe, but when they are a minuscule percentage it still means we have immunity and disease can not reoccur UNTIL it has mutated enough to escape detection by our immune system. But then again keep in mind most mutations are harmful and weaken the virus, so it could, like SARS mutate itself out of existence.

And yes there are many costs. But in societies with good functioning social networks the economic costs are mitigated. Sadly this is not true of the US. The sad part is all the people protesting are the same ones who are being hurt by the fact that we don’t have such a system, yet they think they are better off if they tear is down even more. The Payroll Protection Program ran out of money before most small mom and pop business could not even get their banks to accept their applications. While the bigger businesses with “premium” services had their loans processed. Which group do you think those people protesting belong to?

The human cost of loneliness and isolation is real. No one denies that. But also there is probably a good overlap between lonely people and people who are at risk (elderly, sick). Technology is part of a solution, but it is true that we can not socially isolate for long period of time without bad consequences. That was part of why the better coordinate countries tried to TIME the start of the isolation. Of course some question why they didn’t act sooner, but maybe that will become clearer as we are isolated for too long.
  • Logged
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

M
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 6859
  • Gender: Male
Some interesting news out of California related to antibody testing. It's still early but this is the kind of testing we need. It makes you wonder whether the countries that seem to have done a better job of containing the virus really did so or whether their population demographics made them less susceptible to the serious effects of the virus.

I haven't seen much interest in this study from the major media outlets.

From the article:

That said, the early findings indicate that between 48,000 and 81,000 residents in Santa Clara County were infected as of April 1, back when the official count was 956. The estimate is based on 3,330 blood samples that were taken from volunteers in Mountain View, Los Gatos and San Jose on April 3 and April 4 and tested for antibodies to SARS-CoV-2 .

...

Given the study's estimate of 48,000 to 81,000 infections in early April – and a three-week lag from infection to death – the 100 deaths suggest that the infection fatality rate is between 0.12% and 0.2%.

That's a far contrast from the county's mortality rate based on official cases and deaths as of April 17 -- 3.9%.


https://paloaltoonline.com/news/2020/04/17/stanford-study-more-than-48000-santa-clara-county-residents-have-likely-been-infected-by-coronavirus
  • Logged

m
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 967
  • Gender: Male
Thanks MBIB, you are right, I haven’t seen this reported much. But then again it says it is under peer review, so not yet published. If it holds up to review it will be great. There has been a belief that as we get more and more data and we start including asymptomatic and people who don’t report the death toll would approach 1% or under 1% but this would be much lower. That would be great news indeed.
  • Logged
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

  • *
  • Mentor
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 4493
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#42: April 18, 2020, 11:20:28 AM
I find the US terribly under reports recovered cases because as mentioned there isn't enough testing of the people who are not in the hospital and just get better.  (Limited followup testing). So it makes the numbers look worse than they are.

A point about comparing Covid -19 to say chicken pox/shingles. Sure, this could lay dormant in a person's system for years, then pop up as something "else". From a paranoid point of view, if this was actually an engineered virus to weed out the infirm, then when someone who had the virus and recovered previously later became infirm, it could pop back up (kind of like shingles often happens in older people who had chicken pox when they were younger). We cannot possibly know that until we get Covid -19 under control, anyway, nor could we have enough data about it for years. Being aware is fine, but panicking because "it might be" is fruitless.

I also liked the study MBIB mentions. I have little doubt my son had covid -19. Fever, chills, invaded the lungs, pneumonia, felt like someone was sitting on his chest, lasted for several weeks. Yet he was never even tested and that was at the beginning of March. How many might there be like that?
  • Logged
« Last Edit: April 18, 2020, 11:23:21 AM by OffRoad »
When life gives you lemons, make SALSA!

M
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 3809
  • Gender: Female
Marvin thank you for your informed, scientific views, which make a lot of sense to me.

From my home in Italy, I look at Germany and their success so far at handling the virus. Speaking as a lay person with no medical knowledge whatsoever, I would say that it would be sensible to study the countries that have handled it best, and emulate them. It seems to us here in Italy, that Germany not only made a huge effort to test as many people as possible around people with a confirmed Covid 19 test, but also had the hospital facilities to handle lots of very sick people.

Our death rate is going down in Italy, also because we are now able to handle a larger number of very sick patients, due to impromptu hospitals being set up. Just looking at Boris Johnson, which I realize means absolutely nothing science wise, but since he is the PM, I imagine he was taken to hospital as soon as his breathing became difficult. He was also then in the ICU for 3 nights just for monitoring. I do believe that if everyone who becomes sick to the same point as Boris Johnson could have access to same medical attention, the death rates would be much lower. What I'm saying is, since this virus isn't going to go away for a while, a way to move forward would be to set our countries up with enough ICU beds and staff and equipment to handle a large number of sick so that it is not longer a 50/50 death sentence. I feel, and I say as a lay person, that if we could take full care of the very sick patients, we might be able to risk opening up businesses again. Just an idea.
  • Logged
Married 1989, together since 1984 
BD May 2014,
D26, D23, S16
OW Physical Affair same one. He and she said she turned 34 the month of BD. She turned 52 this year.

m
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 967
  • Gender: Male
Milly: it is heartening to see the numbers from Italy, but part of it I fear is social behaviour. The curve in Italy is turning around but not as steeply as other countries when they pass the peak, which may imply people are not sticking to strict distancing. And seeing 30K citations written in Italy Easter weekend was a bit of letdown.

The easing will be (by everyone’s planning) by being able to test a lot more, finding the people with immunity allowing more selective isolation, and hopefully better treatments like retroviruses that can be used before the situation escalates. That is until there is an effective vaccine, but even an effective vaccine is not 100%. So changing behaviour should be incorporated into any eventual easing.

I see too many people who simply are careless even in the simplest ways. Not sure why its hard for people to just “get in.”

From a paranoid point of view, if this was actually an engineered virus to weed out the infirm, then when someone who had the virus and recovered previously later became infirm, it could pop back up (kind of like shingles often happens in older people who had chicken pox when they were younger).

OffRoad: honestly right now is exactly the time to stick to facts and science rather than paranoia, misinformation and various made up theories spread by people with agenda. The whole idea that this is “engineered’ is not only preposterous from the Occam’s Razor angle but also because we do not have the technology yet for something like that. I for one think it’s irresponsible to even give voice to such none sense when a lot of people are already at high anxiety and are trying to separate fact from misinformed daily rantings of many.
  • Logged
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

  • *
  • Mentor
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 4493
  • Gender: Female
From a paranoid point of view, if this was actually an engineered virus to weed out the infirm, then when someone who had the virus and recovered previously later became infirm, it could pop back up (kind of like shingles often happens in older people who had chicken pox when they were younger).

OffRoad: honestly right now is exactly the time to stick to facts and science rather than paranoia, misinformation and various made up theories spread by people with agenda. The whole idea that this is “engineered’ is not only preposterous from the Occam’s Razor angle but also because we do not have the technology yet for something like that. I for one think it’s irresponsible to even give voice to such none sense when a lot of people are already at high anxiety and are trying to separate fact from misinformed daily rantings of many.
That was exactly my point, in case you missed the part about not panicking about "what ifs". That people will take what they see written, put their own spin on it, then panic about something that may not be reality or ever come to fruition. Rather than censoring what other people say, people should learn to be critical thinkers. You can't control what others say, you CAN  control how you, (any person)as an individual, want to interpret it.

And while it was simply an example of something I read, it's no less possible than many other possibilities. Random virus that kills multitudes of people happens to appear out of the blue? Engineered virus appears suddenly? Both possible,  neither probable or we would not be in this situation. Even now, the theory is that "probably" this or that happened and it made the jump to humans is all anyone has. I can find no confirmed cases of covid 19 in bats, other Corona virus' yes, but not covid 19. I don't shut my mind to possibilities because they might be scary. It's what keeps my doors locked when I live in a neighborhood where the possibility of being murdered is less than .00003.

Facts are, there is no confirmed path to the true origin of how Covid 19 got to humans. Might have been bats or pigs or mice or who knows what. If the media will print anything they want, people need to be critical thinkers to protect themselves.
  • Logged
When life gives you lemons, make SALSA!

m
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 967
  • Gender: Male
Offroad: I am having trouble following what you are saying. On one hand you say something is not likely, then you throw out outlandish paranoid theories. We do have a pretty good guesses of how the virus crossed over to humans. How do you think most viruses appear in humans?

Are you just supposing things out of thin air as true? Because viruses cross species rarely, but they do not impact them the same way. For example we already have seen Covid-19 can cross from humans to cats, but it doesn’t do the same thing to cats as it does to humans. And it can not cross back. So cat owners please don’t worry.

You say be a critical thinker. Ok it begins with actually listening to experts, learning about the area of interest, and NOT negate what is current state of the knowledge in a field. An open mind isn’t the same as listening to everything that is said. And no some things are WAY less possible than others, that is the whole premise of Occam’s Razor.

Please show me one practitioner in the field or expert who says this is an engineered virus and what evidence in the genetic sequence, where the root virus is, what was spliced into it, and what vectors are used to release it. Reading something in a paper, listening to talk radio show hosts, or any talking head that comes on is not an open mind, it is simply choosing to ignore knowledge and expertise.

All our opinions are not equal in all fields. We should go the experts in a field when we are truly open minded. Go to a psychologist to discuss human psyche. Go to a neuroscientist to discuss human nervous system. Go to research scientists who study viruses, people who study human immunology, practicing doctors to learn about Covid-19.
  • Logged
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

  • *
  • Mentor
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 12318
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#47: April 18, 2020, 01:28:58 PM
Something I find very concerning is that the media is reporting very very preliminary findings and then people are taking that as "fact".  This is a NEW virus and we have already seen changes in recommendations and models based upon data that is being generated every day.

The danger in the very fast dissemination of information is that it tends towards sensational headlines but without the scientific method to "prove" that this information is correct.

There is a reason why science is cautious and methodical. I agree, that I would much rather listen to experts in the field of infectious diseases rather than a political leader who talks about things because he has a "hunch" that this will work out well.
  • Logged
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

M
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 3809
  • Gender: Female
Marvin, valid points, Italians did sneak out Easter weekend, which is very disappointing to those who stayed cooped up. So strict quarantine is one of the major answers. Funnily enough, I am watching a talk show on TV right now. This is a serious talk show that would usually be about politics but it's now about the coronavirus. Two things they pointed out, talking about Italy of course. First, they went to our China town near Florence. I've written about it before. To this day, they have not had one death from Coronavirus. They couldn't hide it because they need to use the normal local Italian hospital. One of the main things they did differently, was to shut themselves off in early at the end of January when the virus was spreading in China. They copied what their families were doing in China. Everything in our China town shut down. They've been shut for nearly 3 months now. The tv show interviewed businesses in the area where our China town is and where some of the Chinese worked, and they said that the Chinese took as many vacation days as they were due and then quit, they refused to work once they knew that the virus had reached Italy. They imposed their own isolation.

The second thing, which you mention, will be better treatments. On the show they are talking about Lombardy, in the north of Italy, treating very sick patients with the plasma from people who have recovered from covid 19. They are having great results from this. The problem they say is the limited amount of this plasma available. Lombardy can get lots because they've had lots of cases. Other areas of Italy will not have this available to them. Still, it's very promising. I'm sure you know about it.
  • Logged
Married 1989, together since 1984 
BD May 2014,
D26, D23, S16
OW Physical Affair same one. He and she said she turned 34 the month of BD. She turned 52 this year.

m
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 967
  • Gender: Male
The second thing, which you mention, will be better treatments. On the show they are talking about Lombardy, in the north of Italy, treating very sick patients with the plasma from people who have recovered from covid 19. They are having great results from this. The problem they say is the limited amount of this plasma available. Lombardy can get lots because they've had lots of cases. Other areas of Italy will not have this available to them. Still, it's very promising. I'm sure you know about it.

Thanks Milly I had forgotten to mention the plasmapheresis from people who have recovered. It is a great treatment, but obviously you need donors and bit involved. And that won’t help less developed countries or regions.
  • Logged
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

M
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 6859
  • Gender: Male
IMO you have to be very cautious about believing what you read these days, even from major media sources. Many of them aren't much better than social media these days. In fact, one thing that really annoys me is this new journalism trend of quoting what random people are posting on Facebook, Twitter, etc. And in the USA you also need to carefully evaluate information coming from federal government agencies because everything has been heavily politicized and polarized.

Interestingly. I've found some of the smaller outlets, like the one I linked to that wrote about the Stanford study, are more reliable and less biased than the major outlets. And I tend to see better information coming from the state agencies than from the federal agencies.

My qualifications for my opinions include a graduate degree in library and information science and roughly 30 years working with and evaluating information and information sources.
  • Logged

  • *
  • Mentor
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 4493
  • Gender: Female
Offroad: I am having trouble following what you are saying. On one hand you say something is not likely, then you throw out outlandish paranoid theories. We do have a pretty good guesses of how the virus crossed over to humans. How do you think most viruses appear in humans?
I see you are upset that I have an opinion that a virus can escape from a lab. That part is not paranoid, it is something that can happen. I can have the opinion that a virus can escape from a lab and still think it is not likely. But it IS possible.
https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2019/3/20/18260669/deadly-pathogens-escape-lab-smallpox-bird-flu
As a matter of fact:
https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/15/politics/us-intelligence-virus-started-chinese-lab/index.html which was followed up with
https://www.businessinsider.com/fauci-throws-cold-water-conspiracy-theory-coronavirus-escaped-chinese-lab-2020-4
 and even that does not say "There is absolutely NO CHANCE it came from a laboratory." it says " We do not believe that any type of laboratory-based scenario is plausible." (Plausible: appearing worthy of belief) Key word for Plausible is Appearing, IMO. Zero proof. Just saying.
Link to article linked above. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0820-9

What I believe doesn't matter. This thought process is out there for people to read. Not panicking when it is read is important.

Quote
Are you just supposing things out of thin air as true?
What does this mean?  Suppose what out of thin air? Read the articles above where the US was investigating whether the virus could have come from a Chinese lab. Are you upset because I said IF this were Engineered? It's not like that is a secret theory. It was on CNN.
Quote
You say be a critical thinker. Ok it begins with actually listening to experts, learning about the area of interest, and NOT negate what is current state of the knowledge in a field. An open mind isn’t the same as listening to everything that is said. And no some things are WAY less possible than others, that is the whole premise of Occam’s Razor.
We are going to have to disagree on what being a critical thinker is. It is NOT just listening to "experts" because experts often disagree. Which do you listen to?  And Occam Razor is Entities should not be multiplied without necessity. Because people paraphrase it to suit their needs doesn't make it gospel. It is still ONE person's opinion.  Again, whether or not one thing might be "more" possible than another does not negate both things being possible. But that is a philosophical discussion.
Critical thinking, to me, is the following. Everyone's mileage can vary:
1. Formulate your question
2. Gather your information
3. Apply the information
4. Consider the implications
5. Explore other points of view

Quote
Please show me one practitioner in the field or expert who says this is an engineered virus and what evidence in the genetic sequence, where the root virus is, what was spliced into it, and what vectors are used to release it. Reading something in a paper, listening to talk radio show hosts, or any talking head that comes on is not an open mind, it is simply choosing to ignore knowledge and expertise.
I never said it was one, Why do you keep saying this? I said "IF". In 1978 the government insisted "there are no stealth fighters". Guess what? There were. And you couldn't find any practitioner in  the field or expert who would say other than that there were none.

Quote
All our opinions are not equal in all fields. We should go the experts in a field when we are truly open minded. Go to a psychologist to discuss human psyche. Go to a neuroscientist to discuss human nervous system. Go to research scientists who study viruses, people who study human immunology, practicing doctors to learn about Covid-19.
I completely disagree with you one this because an opinion isn't limited to an expert on anything. An opinion is an opinion. (a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge).  Everyone gets to have opinions, beliefs, thoughts. No one gets to tell us we don't get to have them. If you don't like mine, that's fine with me. I simply don't understand what  seems like hostility.

IMO, to be truly open minded, you take all information into account, sort through it, decide what makes sense based on the information you have as it affects your world. I've already had plenty of experience with "Experts" who didn't have any idea what they were talking about.

I stand by my assertion that there is no point panicking because someone reads something and it sounds scary to them, or it's something that *might* happen or they don't understand it, more than ever. The media posts whatever they think someone will read. People will post their opinions. "Experts" who may or may not be experts, will post their own information that may be factual findings, may be "we believe", may be "it's likely this" and may be "We don't have any other answer, so we're extrapolating from this old answer".

ETA-Maybe Lab leak but not specifically engineered. Fair point:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/04/14/state-department-cables-warned-safety-issues-wuhan-lab-studying-bat-coronaviruses/
  • Logged
« Last Edit: April 18, 2020, 05:12:46 PM by OffRoad »
When life gives you lemons, make SALSA!

m
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 967
  • Gender: Male
Offroad: first I want to make it absolutely clear there is no hostility whatsoever and I am not upset.

I will also clarify that yes we can all have opinions, that has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. But not everyone opinions are equal on all subjects as I said before. And I very strongly disagree with your description of “open minded.” And I’ll point out the basic logical fallacy: just because you have experience with “experts” who were wrong it does not negate expertise. This is logic 101 failure. Goes back to “exceptions do not negate a rule.”

And disagreement between experts does not negate expertise either, that is logic 101 failure number 2. It is the basis of another truly horrendous misunderstanding in laypeople: that if scientists have disagreements about an area, and let’s say 10% have different opinion, then no one KNOWS the truth. That’s not correct either. Using that kind of logic humanity knows absolutely nothing, rocket engines are not flying, cars are not moving, our electronics are not actually working, and our medicine is all equal to voodoo healing. Because there is absolute consensus in VERY FEW fields of human endeavor.

True expertise by definition is the understanding that on complex topics and areas of human endeavor it takes years of study, work, and depth to gain said expertise. By contrast an opinion not backed by this is much weaker. No, no one has a “gut” that tells them where a virus comes from, or what it is going to do.

As for lab leak, can you elaborate what you think what “leaked?” The article you mention is the US military and intelligence analyzing the possibility of virus having escaped a lab, because it is their job, and the concluded most likely that was not the case. They study all kinds of unlikely possibilities and from that has spawned a conspiracy theory. It is not open minded to repeat flat earth conspiracy theories. If the virus existed in nature and you believe someone collected it for lab study then having it “escape” won’t do it. It has to cross to a human, probably mutate slightly to be more suited to human transmission first. And as for “man made” again if you study the actual structure and genetic of a virus you can see similarity and differences to other existing ones. There are patterns retained in nature in various biological entities. A man made virus has very tell tale fingerprints. This is not “opinion” and is something that can be identified.

One of the biggest ways I see the US starting to lose its lead in the world is this exact incorrect belief: that uninformed, uneducated, unqualified opinions are the same as the opinion of leading practitioners in a field. And mainstream media is just as fault in the US. In my opinion there are very few actual journalistic organizations left in the US. To see that major “news” outlets put on Dr Oz and Dr Phil to discuss the virus already tells you how ridiculous this is. And this is before we talk about people who listen to talk show hosts, to completely unqualified people who can’t tell RNA from DNA or protein, all in the name that “experts” don’t know things and all our opinions are equally valid.

Do you honestly think that the opinion of your random neighbor is as valid as cardiologist if someone you love is having a heart attack?

Finally to be a critical thinker has to start with a very solid base of knowledge in the facts, practices, history and discoveries in the field you want to delve into. Without this basic abilities in that subject matter, specially complex ones, then its not clear what you are being “critical” about. It is not possible to critically judge truth from fiction, high probability from rarity, and to see if the evidence is valid and can be applied. I can be as “critical” as I want about complex field of currency exchanges and what impacts them, I will still go bankrupt if I put my money where my “critical thinking” on the subject is, because I don’t know enough.
  • Logged
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 12531
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#53: April 19, 2020, 02:32:46 AM
Funnily enough was just having a conversation with someone this morning that scientific voices are a bit invisible in our public communications by government here in the UK. We don't seem to have our own Dr Fauci (perhaps we could steal him if Mr Trump fires him lol) and that is starting to seem a noticeable gap that government ministers can't fill. There is a level of basic trust in government's good intent here (mostly) if less in their operational competence perhaps. But they can present the numbers but not necessarily be as able to explain the thinking behind the numbers.....and as time goes by I suspect there is a growing need for the why as well as the what. Not sure how it is in other countries like Italy........
  • Logged
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.


"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

N
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 887
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#54: April 19, 2020, 02:47:09 AM
Funnily enough was just having a conversation with someone this morning that scientific voices are a bit invisible in our public communications by government here in the UK. We don't seem to have our own Dr Fauci (perhaps we could steal him if Mr Trump fires him lol) and that is starting to seem a noticeable gap that government ministers can't fill. There is a level of basic trust in government's good intent here (mostly) if less in their operational competence perhaps. But they can present the numbers but not necessarily be as able to explain the thinking behind the numbers.....and as time goes by I suspect there is a growing need for the why as well as the what. Not sure how it is in other countries like Italy........

I wonder if it is partly (I say partly because I’m already convinced of incompetence). because scientists work with uncertainty and change their options when evidence changes.  And when under siege, humanity wants leadership ( parental omnipotence) and certainty so governments try to provide that because that is what is most likely to get them re elected and muffle protest.

Another thing is that a spread of expertise is needed.  For example, the UK govt has a scientific committee and relied quite heavily on mathematical Modelling.  From very early on, scientists with a public health/epidemiology background we’re protesting and forecasting events correctly.  They said their expertise should have been included because they have experience in how pandemics actually spread in populations.

 Prof John Ashworh, on BBC question time was derided for a being a ‘mad professor’. He has been proved right.. Other prominent consultants, include Anthony Costello, ex WHO director for women children and adolescent health. 

This article reflects briefly on the mistrust of experts:

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/show/problem-thinking-know-experts?fbclid=IwAR0nnvgXZduai117I7Bh4bYtCgCP3Ov0uy19z_YAqToPyzV4LK6s8oXt2k0&__twitter_impression=true

Inthink the world is so specialised that we normal Citizens simply  don’t have the background to grasp the detail.  And this is exacerbated when we have governments we don’t trust so we feel we need to exert our own judgement more forcefully than if we had faith in our leaders.
  • Logged
« Last Edit: April 19, 2020, 02:51:06 AM by Nerissa »

m
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 967
  • Gender: Male
Treasur, Nerissa excellent points.

Here is a very interesting article in NYT (sorry if its behind a paywall for some) that describes the difference in the approach in Germany and US. Essentially very high trust in the government, high levels of people doing what they are asked because “we are all in this together” and Merkel being a scientist explaining to people what is going on and why they must do what they do.

Also they are now starting to monitor antibodies in population on a weekly basis to start planning how to release controls. All based on expertise, knowledge, science and medicine. No random opinions, no discussion of “freedoms” being taken away when all that is being done is to try to protect its own citizens.

To me this is example of the “better angels” or humanity, reason and using all the knowledge we have for the common good. And I won’t be surprised when Germany comes out of this more united, better than most countries in both deaths and in terms of economic damage to people and the entire economy.

There is a steep price to be paid in societies when we allow people to sow divisions among populace for their own petty reasons (politics, economics, beliefs). This has happened over and over in history but yet doesn’t seem to be something certain people ever learn from. Combine this with a anti-intellectual bent towards dismissing “expertise” and you have the ingredients for a disaster in the making.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/18/world/europe/with-broad-random-tests-for-antibodies-germany-seeks-path-out-of-lockdown.html
  • Logged
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

N
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 887
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#56: April 19, 2020, 03:21:18 AM
Quote
A further finding that cannot be readily explained in terms of perceptions of threat or perceived efficacy of behaviour but can be interpreted in the light of the above theories is that having a high level of trust in authorities and satisfaction with the communications received about the disease is associated with compliance with preventive, avoidant, and management behaviours. Research has shown that trust is a key emotion which has been found to be relevant in risk‐related behaviour (Slovic, 1999). Levels of trust and satisfaction with communication are particularly important in a pandemic situation in that the authorities are responsible for providing information about the course of the outbreak and also for developing treatments and vaccinations. Lack of trust can therefore have very detrimental effects in terms of controlling the disease. Trust is important because it affects how likely it is that risk assessments from authorities are deemed to be credible and this belief in turn can influence behaviour. A lack of trust in authorities is likely to affect how people process and interpret health messages and risk communication advice, to increase concerns and to interfere with the way that the risk messages are interpreted and acted on (Petts, Horlick‐Jones, & Murdock, 2001; Vaughan & Tinker, 2009). Issues of trust can be especially important in situations which are uncertain, such as how the course of a pandemic will develop. Slovic (1999) points out that trust is fragile and difficult to maintain, being easily broken because negative events which can destroy trust are more noticeable than positive events.

Previous research has highlighted the importance of communication in preventing disease. Openness of government communication and acknowledging uncertainty is important for fostering trust (e.g., Wray et al., 2008). Reviews by Lee (2008), Menon (2006), and Menon and Goh (2004) examined why Singapore fared so well during the SARS crisis, whereas Hong Kong did not and concluded that transparency in communications was key. The Singapore Government's success was partly due to their ability to build confidence and trust in the community and their transparent approach to communications. This was associated with compliance with the recommendations (e.g., quarantine) and reduced spread of SARS. In contrast, the Hong Kong Government lost public trust due to its handling of the event. In particular, the government said that there was nothing to worry about and failed to implement containment measures when cases were already occurring in Hong Kong. People were given inconsistent advice about precautionary measures and insufficient information about the spread of the disease. Some research suggests that the public are more likely to take appropriate action and accept the recommended treatment plan if they have been involved in the decision‐making process (e.g., focus groups, patient forums; Holmes, 2008; Tam, Sciberras, Mullington, & King, 2005). Such involvement can influence the level of trust that the public has in government and institutions (Holmes, 2008; Tam et al., 2005).

This is an excerpt from an academic paper about population behaviours during a pandemic.  This section is about the importance of trust in government.  I lived in singapore during SARS in 2003.  We were required to demonstrate a high level of compliance.  Eg I had to record family temperatures in books .  These were checked daily at school for the children.  In return, transport was disinfected.  People were employed to clean lift buttons and door handles constantly.  Information about cases was shared freely.  I felt looked after and that I had faith in the government . There was anxiety but no panic, despite Sara being more deadly than Coronavirus (but less communicable).  Untrusted the government.  At the start of the current Coronavirus pandemic, among Singapore’s first actions was distribution of free masks and free 1  litre bottles of sanitizer.

Trust is a two way process.
  • Logged

  • *
  • Mentor
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 12318
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#57: April 19, 2020, 06:51:02 AM
I laughed when Marvin mentioned Dr. Oz and Dr. Phil as being the ones people are "listening" to regarding this complicated issue of a world wide pandemic.

It is very clear, that the 90 minute daily news conferences that are being broadcasted are a replacement for the political rallies that the president is using for his advantage to become reelected.

When I worked in Canada during SARS, I do not remember any "political" agendas associated with the work that needed to be done. No protests, no anger towards what we needed to do which was necessary to contain SARS...this "circus" I live in is more disturbing to me than COVID.

And in many ways, more dangerous to our lives and the great division that is being made even worse by the inability of people to listen to what the scientists are telling us to do.
  • Logged
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

  • *
  • Mentor
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 4858
  • Gender: Male
  • Back to being #1 for my daughters!!!!
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#58: April 19, 2020, 08:56:07 AM
Hello,

Another day at home. Just put on the brisket in the smoker and in eight hours, dinner!

Quote
When I worked in Canada during SARS, I do not remember any "political" agendas associated with the work that needed to be done. No protests, no anger towards what we needed to do which was necessary to contain SARS...this "circus" I live in is more disturbing to me than COVID.

I agree about the "circus" mentality. Of course, we did not have the social media that we have today. Back then, trolls were creatures that lived under bridges. I never heard of influencers but I was aware of people under the influence. We were just starting to have the war of the news networks.

Quote
great division that is being made even worse by the inability of people to listen

I don't think its the inability for people to listen, it is the inability to trust. So much conflicting information that the facts can't be filtered through the noise.

Quote
Combine this with a anti-intellectual bent towards dismissing “expertise” and you have the ingredients for a disaster in the making.

I have spent the past three years studying High Reliability Organizations and you are on the right track. The following are the five key characteristics:

1. Preoccupation with Failure. ...
2. Reluctance to Simplify Interpretations. ...
3. Sensitivity to Operations (an HRO Distinguishing Characteristic) ...
4. Commitment to Resilience. ...
5. Deference to Expertise.

If we want to truly make this work, we have to accept and acknowledge our shortcomings, avoid simple solutions or explanations to complex systems, and focus on our operations without running around trying to place blame. Finally, we do need to listen to the experts and heed their advice.

Interesting discussion and comments,

Ready
  • Logged
"Always look in the mirror and love what you see."

m
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 967
  • Gender: Male
Ready: thanks for that and I for one am very interested what you mentioned about high reliability organizations. It is something I know little about and if everyone else is also interested and you are willing to share would love to hear more about how you think this applies to the failures of what is going on in the US in light of the response to any major challenge, and specifically the Covid pandemic.
  • Logged
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 1315
  • Gender: Female
Interesting topic for me as well.

I find the anti-intellectual thinking that seems to have enamored a vocal percentage of this country to be unbelievable.  It's a dumbing down of the people, along the lines of bread and circuses for the masses. 

Yes, everyone has a right to hold an opinion on a topic.  However, not all opinions are based on the same level of knowledge so the opinions are not equal in facts or relevance to the situation.

One can reads articles on a topic but that doesn't mean one is an expert.  There is a reason higher education is required to practice in areas requiring expertise and knowledge.

To weight an uneducated opinion as equivalent to an educated opinion is hubris, not intellect. As well it's missing an opportunity to learn.  An intelligent person exercising critical thinking skills, hopefully, realizes it is smarter to make use of others skills to learn and make informed decisions than it is to speak and confirm ones lack of intelligence.

From my perspective, this circus going on in this country engenders nothing even close to confidence.  The political partisanship and theatrics are nothing more than bread and circuses for the masses to keep them amused and compliant.

This has born a generation of selfish brats who make no sacrifices for their country.  Instead they want to whine and rail about their rights being infringed upon, failing to realize those people who fought for their rights and pay for the roof over their heads and the food in their mouths are the same ones they are hurting. 

Yet, these people are the same ones who when hurt look for someone else to blame.  The same who want the government to pay for their student loans.  The same who prattle on about how tough life is when they are expected to go to work.  The same who want $15 to serve fast food.  And interestingly, on the other end of the political spectrum, the same who preach self reliance and Christian values while asserting they have a say in how another addresses health concerns.  Yet they feel put upon when the government, in a pandemic, legislates health concerns and behaviors of its citizens. 

Hyprocrisy at its best. 

This is the same mentality that grew a generation of MLCers who don't know who they are, or how to act as adults.  Who are behaving as roll models to their children that all that matters is what they want, what their opinion is, what makes them happy no matter who else is hurt, who have expectations that just showing up makes them equal to those that put in effort to learn and achieve, who run home to mommy and or daddy when going gets tough instead of putting in work, who see no need to own responsibility for their actions because nothing is their fault, who feel their opinions are as equally valid as anyone elses even those who have spent a lifetime studying and working in complex fields.  Unbelievable and pathetic.

And it spawned a generation of us, the LBS'S.  What do we think we are modeling for our children?  Hopefully, it is not how to accept less than what we should deserve or have earned. 

Trust?  Not even close based on the actions of this administration.  Respect?  Again, not even close, as it's done nothing to EARN or DESERVE the respect.  Political partisianship, deflecting blame to previous administrations, name calling, smart assed comments in the middle of speeches, none of that shows strength. The theatrics are pathetic and childish. 

And I never liked bread nor circuses.

Lp
  • Logged
if people won’t listen to you, there’s no point in talking to people. If they won’t listen, you’re just banging your head against a wall.

Sadly Ive used up all the time I had allotted to spend banging my head on the wall

F
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 1260
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#61: April 19, 2020, 03:24:52 PM
Law professor, I find this quite rude and condescending.  This is new.  All of the facts are not yet in play.  You my friend are not a scientist either.  You are just a well educated lawyer that believes your opinion is more important than someone else’s.

We all do our research and come to our best conclusions.  We read articles from scientists, and people who are familiar with the topic.  We watch the news, we weed out what we think is untrue/true and make our best guess on the truth.  No one has all of the facts yet, so even the scientists are limited with data. 

A little humility goes a long way.

By the way, there is such a thing as being concerned about all three things.  The virus, the economy and our constitutional rights.  Many want to make this simple, however it is quite complex.

I am currently watching my elderly grandparents struggle to keep their business open.  They were not forced shut, but rather their employees would rather take the handout the government is giving than work.  So they themselves are exposed.

All of the people I know screaming for their constitutional rights own businesses and don’t want them to go under. 

The ones wanting their loans paid off are already getting unemployment.... 

I did not reply to a prior comment of yours because we were asked not to make this political.  You however continue to do so.
  • Logged
« Last Edit: April 19, 2020, 04:05:24 PM by Finding Joy »
Married 23 years
Husband is 46
Me-42
4 kids 9-18 years old
BD-October 2018-ILYBNIL, wants a divorce, 2 OW at different times.
April 2019 He got an apartment and moved out.
Oct 2019-Apologized for a years worth of monster behavior.  Still wants to start divorce this Spring, is distant, but friendly.  Tries more with kids, but superficial.
2020-He has continued to help out when asked and be polite.  I do think he questions his choices at times.  I do not believe he has OW.
Oct 2020-He wants to get back together.  I am unsure. 
August 2021-.  He has shown very gradual, but consistent progress.  He moved back home.
December 2022-He has been home for 1 1/2 years reconnecting, in the room with me for several months. I now consider us reconciled.
October 2023-After two years home and being the man he should be, I finally fully let him back into my heart.

F
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 1260
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#62: April 19, 2020, 03:42:07 PM
I completely agree about having to trust our own instincts and intuition because the trust factor is not there.  We are following all of the rules and I personally don’t mind quarantine. 

However, I do believe a balance has to take place.  Letting people’s lively hoods  be taken away completely and many having to rely on the government is not the American way.  A balance for our constitutional rights, our ability to provide for ourselves and the public health must take place. 

Many want to make those concerned about anything but the virus out to be uneducated idiots who shouldn’t have an opinion. 

The truth is, everyone I know is more concerned about paying their bills than catching the virus.  We are concerned about our rights because more of them erode with each passing year, and seldom are they returned.  We are concerned about the virus, but many feel the ends do not justify the means.  Many feel the measures have gone too far in certain parts of the country.  Where I live it seems reasonable, certain states have gone too far and so many have raised a voice to say, no.
  • Logged
« Last Edit: April 19, 2020, 03:54:12 PM by Finding Joy »
Married 23 years
Husband is 46
Me-42
4 kids 9-18 years old
BD-October 2018-ILYBNIL, wants a divorce, 2 OW at different times.
April 2019 He got an apartment and moved out.
Oct 2019-Apologized for a years worth of monster behavior.  Still wants to start divorce this Spring, is distant, but friendly.  Tries more with kids, but superficial.
2020-He has continued to help out when asked and be polite.  I do think he questions his choices at times.  I do not believe he has OW.
Oct 2020-He wants to get back together.  I am unsure. 
August 2021-.  He has shown very gradual, but consistent progress.  He moved back home.
December 2022-He has been home for 1 1/2 years reconnecting, in the room with me for several months. I now consider us reconciled.
October 2023-After two years home and being the man he should be, I finally fully let him back into my heart.

  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 1315
  • Gender: Female
Finding Joy,

1.  Nowhere did I say those concerned were uneducated idiots.  I said the tone of anti-intellectualism is unbelievable.  Not at all the same thing.

2.  I never claimed to be a scientist.  I said weighting an uneducated opinion the same as a specialist in a particular field is hubris, not intellect.  Again, not the same.  For example, I do not second guess or claim to have a more valid opinion than my mechanic.  I am perfectly capable of reading articles and specs and forming an opinion as to what's wrong with my car but I respect his education, skill, and expertise because he has a greater amount of knowledge and answers questions with directness and honesty. 

3.  Yet again, I did not say ANYWHERE that my opinion mattered more than anyone elses opinion.  That is a ridiculous and untrue statement you made.

4.  And yet again, I did not identify party affiliation, nor complain about one party or another. I took issue with a school of thought based on the discussion of trusted organizations.

5.  If you disagree with my opinion or find it rude and or condescending, at least address points rather than react stating things you read into it rather than what is actually written.

6.  I have 2 businesses of my own that im watching stagger towards bankruptcy, that I alone will be responsible for the bills/expenses.  My J is about to be laid off.  Yet, I am not asking for help or blaming others.  I will rebuild just as I built the businesses in the first place, nor am I suggesting that my right to make money is of equal importance to someone's health or life.  Yes, one can be concerned with all 3 aspects you listed.  But when I have to tell a family member their spouse is dying, I'm not concerned or focusing on my right to make money or go to the gym.  I'm focusing on the of a fellow human being.

7.  I am receiving no unemployment and would love my loans paid off although what that has to do with the points I made escapes me. J's unemployment is less than 50% of his earnings so I'll be paying his bills as well as my own.  Why?  Because he's being laid off due to the federal government failing to pay for contracts to his company to date.

8.   "Their employees would rather take the handout the government is giving than work.  So they themselves are exposed.". Are you sure they would rather take a hand out than work?  Perhaps the employees don't want to get sick? Perhaps they have children at home?  Perhaps like many of us, in addition to children, they are caregivers for elderly parents?  After all if they wanted a hand out its simple enough to get one even without Covid-19 factored in so why would they be working in the first place?  A bit of self exposure there, assuming the motives of employees? 

9.  I am not making this political.  If that's what you want to read into it, that's your issue, not my concern.  But at least try to read content, not react to perception. 

Yes, this is new, a new situation, a new virus.  The behaviors in question are not new, however, and that is what was addressed in relation to trust of an organization. 

It was Ronald Reagan who, at a dinner speech I attended, addressed the constant barbs he was receiving about being an actor rather than an intellectual.  To paraphrase, he responded, I may not be the smartest man in the room, but I'm smart enough to have hired some really smart men and I'm smart enough to listen to them.  And I'm just smart enough to present my decisions to the American people.  I don't have to stoop to name calling or blame.  It's my Presidency and the American people deserve my best." People respected his honesty, his class, his dignity, and his owning his mistakes even if they didn't always agree with him.  He was trusted for those qualities.  That is real leadership.  You are, of course, free to disagree. 

There is no disagreement that a balance must be struck.  I simply don't think a balance can be struck until true leadership is shown without blaming the past, without politicizing issues, without barbed comments and half truths, and without theater.

What rights are you feeling erode to a greater extent year after year?  I guess I'm not noting an erosion of my personal rights as delineated in the Constitution nor have I been presented with more cases arguing that Constitutional issue.  Have some states gone to far at the state level?, most assuredly, for my personal taste, but that's a state not a Federal Constitutional issue and for the voters of that state to address. 

Lp
  • Logged
if people won’t listen to you, there’s no point in talking to people. If they won’t listen, you’re just banging your head against a wall.

Sadly Ive used up all the time I had allotted to spend banging my head on the wall

F
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 1260
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#64: April 19, 2020, 07:23:13 PM
There is quite a bit there law professor.  I spoke to a perceived tone.  If that tone is not there, forgive me.  Sometimes we read into written text and it is not as well rounded as the spoken language.  All of this is raw as I watch those I love struggle.

I am sorry your businesses are struggling.  My parents had to lay off their staff and my grandparents employees stopped coming in.  My grandparents don’t have a choice but to risk exposure to save their business.  My tenants are layed off too and struggling.  The point is, the balance has not been struck with the virus and people’s livelihoods.

I love Ronald Reagan and he did take ownership and was an awesome leader!  I do agree ownership is important, however our leadership has done a good job in other ways.  For instance, I believe in the policies in place and in the slow reopening.

You have made it very clear you are not a fan of the current leadership, there was no need to name names.

As far as rights eroding, Freedom of Religion is under attack and has been for many years.  This next election will be watched closely.

Of course none of our opinions are weighted the same as a scientist in the field.  However, we all have access to the information at hand.

The scientists only speak to what’s best for getting rid of the  virus.  The economy is not something they will speak to.  Our rights are not something they will speak to.  So what I am saying is that just because they say it, does not mean even they have the full picture.  The leaders have to look at all of these things and make choices based on not just the scientific opinions, but economic and constitutional rights.

Have a good evening Law!

Also, many of us do question where this virus came from.  Even if it was an accident as they say, never waste a good emergency.  This is being used to reshape our country.  To make it much more dependent on the government.  It is America’s distrust in government that has kept it free for this long.  My distrust is strong and healthy.  I don’t want the government running our lives. 
  • Logged
Married 23 years
Husband is 46
Me-42
4 kids 9-18 years old
BD-October 2018-ILYBNIL, wants a divorce, 2 OW at different times.
April 2019 He got an apartment and moved out.
Oct 2019-Apologized for a years worth of monster behavior.  Still wants to start divorce this Spring, is distant, but friendly.  Tries more with kids, but superficial.
2020-He has continued to help out when asked and be polite.  I do think he questions his choices at times.  I do not believe he has OW.
Oct 2020-He wants to get back together.  I am unsure. 
August 2021-.  He has shown very gradual, but consistent progress.  He moved back home.
December 2022-He has been home for 1 1/2 years reconnecting, in the room with me for several months. I now consider us reconciled.
October 2023-After two years home and being the man he should be, I finally fully let him back into my heart.

  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 1315
  • Gender: Female
I think we are all a bit raw.  For me, this comes as anger and frustration.  And I'm sorry if I sounded rude or condescending.

All you said I can agree with.  And there in lies my struggle.  I loved Trump's comments today about moving supply chains home.  I love his focus on unfair trade practices.  I agree with most of his policies as to foreign affairs generally although for personal reasons I find his relationship status with Putin a bit worrisome as I know what that man is about.  I would love to see the balance with opening small stores since the mega stores are open.  I like his policies dealing with Ranching and Farming.  I like his position on tax law. 

And yet I struggle with the general concept of blaming the past, of not focusing on the today and the future, of lack of accountability and ownership, of tweets full of barbs that diminish the man, detract from his successes, and the exalted office.  Sometimes he is his own worst enemy in my view.  And that frustrates me because it's quite unnecessary.

Freedom of religion is one area that has swung too far one way certainly. I cannot square the Constitutional history of the Founders and their experiences with many of the state policies in place although that doesn't come up in court as often here as other states I've lived in. 

Where the virus came from, tied with the lack of Chinese transparency has raised some big questions.  I'm not sure we will ever know the full truth.  And that ties back into the idea of trust in organizations.  I'm still stuck on the old time Republican party Reagan era common sense of trust but verify.  Speak hard truths without embellishments, mean what one says and take responsibility.  Perhaps I'm showing my age? 

And that was the hardest part of my ex's MLC, the lies, the embellishments, the failure to take responsibility and own wrongs, the behaviour that failed to be respectable and strong, from a man who proudly wore the uniform of a Marine for over a decade.  So I'm particularly sensitive to that still after all these years. 

Good night,
Lp
  • Logged
if people won’t listen to you, there’s no point in talking to people. If they won’t listen, you’re just banging your head against a wall.

Sadly Ive used up all the time I had allotted to spend banging my head on the wall

m
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 967
  • Gender: Male
FJ: I don’t want to devolve and take off track, but I am very curious which constitutional rights exactly are you referring to? The right of assembly? Because I have not seen anyone being dragged off to jail in these incredibly ill advised “demonstrations” with guns. You think it is a violation of constitutional rights to advise people NOT to spread a virus? Is this colored by your belief that this is not that big a deal? What would you say if this was a virulent disease with 100% mortality rate spread by simple contact? Would you still think rights are being violated? What would you say if someone who was ill decided to “assemble” somewhere where your children are and put their lives at risk? Would you support their right? I am not being argumentative, I am trying to point out that there are real lives being put in danger by these idiotic pointless demonstrations. They don’t happen to be of people you may care about.

By contrast there was a large demonstration last night in Israel against the PM. The amazing picture (look it up) showed people demonstrating while wearing masks and keeping a large distance between themselves. So the right to demonstrate isn’t the issue, its the reckless and selfish behaviour of not keeping social distance, and in one instance blocking access to a hospital that is wrong.

As for the economy: what is the cost that you believe is an acceptable number of deaths? Because this exact question is what IS being studied by economists. When I talk about expertise it is not just sciences, there are many fields of knowledge. When the President tried to get businesses and banker and investors to back opening everything up now they said no. I don’t believe they said it from an epidemiological viewpoint. They have probably run cost/benefit analysis of what would happen if they open now and there is a second wave, fatalities, more damage to economy, vs taking a little bit more hit and open later as epidemiologists suggest. Did you see that report? So what makes you think a group of people who are really not educated or knowledgeable of these trade offs are better suited to force a reopening?

As for the economic damage: yes absolutely. It is VERY real. I happen to run businesses where I can afford to not let any of my employees take any financial hit. I am very happy about that. But this is NOT the case for a lot of business owners. And the reason this is such a big issue is exactly because our governmental policies are so far behind other countries. This is NOT a political discussion, I have no interest in such a thing anymore in the US. This is an analysis of policy and how we are failing.

For example European countries have guaranteed DIRECTLY the wages of workers, here in the UK its 80% for the duration of lockdown, up to a limit that covers all of middle class earners. This means that while people are doing what’s best for themselves and societies they are not being financially ruined. In the US we sent a negligible $1300 check that we have failed to get out to everyone, and the Payroll Protection Program (which by the way could have been the same idea) has been botched terribly. How? Because instead of directly allowing the government to provide funds to retain employees it is being run through banks. The banks get to decide. So ironically small businesses without “premium” access haven’t even been able to file a loan application while bigger businesses have been funded. Then the money ran out. I know many very small business owners who’s banks were crushed by the applications and other banks would not let them open new accounts and file. Guess what happened with businesses that have a lot more assets and money in the bank? You guessed it, the bank pushed through their applications first.

As for other parts of the program people have to file for unemployment in their state first. And you guessed it, these programs are completely not able to keep up and in bigger states may take weeks to just process. Not only this is resulting in a lot of small businesses and people truly having to struggle.  Other countries put in place mortgage and rent holds, while in the US people are being evicted. Once homeless, recovery is near impossible. By halting mortgages and rents both property owners who rely on rent and the rent payers are protected while we freeze the economy in order to save lives.

Note how there are ways to do both things while minimizing financial damage to people. And that is not all. Economies that are protecting the financial well being of their citizens and businesses will RECOVER much faster when the shut down is eased. Because both their consumer and their businesses won’t be financially as damaged, while US will have to start rebuilding businesses and people will have to start digging out of financial holes. None of this is political. This is economic planning and expert advice. I am sorry but instincts are not how to run major companies much less countries. Imagine if our military ran strategy, planning and wars by “instinct.”

Western and other societies have amassed incredible amount of knowledge for many years. That is part of why we all enjoy such a high quality of life. And for many years US was the leader of this kind of pragmatic, knowledge based operations and that was what made us a world leader. But that is not what is happening right now. And from everything I see a great deal of our current policies help the well off at the expense of the working and middle class. And forgetting politics or beliefs no country does well for itself and its citizens without promoting and protecting a large, healthy and financially secure middle class. We have seen over and over how economies and societies suffer when wealth starts drifting ever upwards.
  • Logged
« Last Edit: April 20, 2020, 01:54:09 AM by marvin4242 »
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

N
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 887
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#67: April 20, 2020, 02:41:42 AM
Quote
Note how there are ways to do both things while minimizing financial damage to people. And that is not all. Economies that are protecting the financial well being of their citizens and businesses will RECOVER much faster when the shut down is eased. Because both their consumer and their businesses won’t be financially as damaged, while US will have to start rebuilding businesses and people will have to start digging out of financial holes. None of this is political. This is economic planning and expert advice. I am sorry but instincts are not how to run major companies much less countries. Imagine if our military ran strategy, planning and wars by “instinct.”

Is instinct in this case largely a euphemism for self interest?

Surely the most important constitutional right is to live - to be alive? Isn’t opening up going to deny many that right?
And regarding business, I have no knowledge of economics, but is it lockdown that is affecting business or the virus?  Opening up allows the virus to spread rampantly.  What is sickness  going to do to businesses?  Are people going to start life as normal once distancing ends?  I shan’t.  My activities will be curtailed for some time while we see what happens.  I know a number of people who have had the virus and are better and only elderly people who have died, but one friend has been ventilated and is now home recuperating.  He is 54 , active and works in a public capacity.  His family are cautious in celebrating.  The best they can hope for is a long, slow recovery. Whether  he can return to his work is unknown

This focus on returning to normality is understandable because no one likes to be frightened  but is a denial of the economic and  human costs of a pandemic. I’m not convinced by the idea that there is already significant herd immunity or that only the elderly suffer (and if they are, are they so expendable?).  Blood donors  in The Netherlands  were checked and it was found that 3% had acquired antibodies. Even if the real figure is double that, it is only 6%.   and South Korea is  reporting people becoming reinfected.

l It also seems the virus can  have a psychiatric/ neurological effect too.  That may be due to  it entering the central nervous system.  I spent a day over the weekend studying remotely online with a group including physicians working on COVID wards.   they have all had experiences of people becoming  psychotic while ill and the consequences of this are yet to be understood.  The consultant supervising one young doctor had died because of lack of appropriate Ppe.  He was in his early fifties with a family. 

I hate to imagine the pressures involved in making any decision about opening up.  There are still too many unknowns but those who do know about health, economic  etc are working hard to find a compromise and I’d prefer to wait a while. 





I’m guessing that those of us in less affected areas or when news outlets confuse us with an agenda cannot see what is really going on and no one can truly say what should happen as this situation is unprecedented.  But there are most certainly experts and governments whose advice I would prefer to be heard over others.

  • Logged
« Last Edit: April 20, 2020, 03:17:52 AM by Nerissa »

  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 12531
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#68: April 20, 2020, 05:11:29 AM
It seems to me that events are naturally causing societies to consider their priorities and how some of their underpinning values work in practice in this situation. Which probably includes looking at the existing fault lines in our individual nations, and the balance between rights and responsibilities that is part of being a member of any collective group.  And different societies are finding that it puts pressure on different tender spots perhaps. So, for instance, here in the UK we have been one of the countries that has prioritised a service economy and a growth in freelance work and zero hours contracts (when essentially you are 'on call' but your hours and wage/benefits are less secure). These are many of our lowest paid workers working at minimum wage so very little savings and many of them fall through the safety net of some of the schemes in the UK designed to keep people afloat. Along with sub groups, often of older people or those in rural areas, who do not have much access to online services. Their experience is quite different from someone who is being paid 80% of a reasonable salary or who had a professional job where they can work virtually. Or indeed someone who is working a front line essential job where truthfully they are more exposed to the risk of infection.....everyone from nurses to care workers to bus drivers. Not everyone is in the same boat are they? And that raises some real questions for all of our countries about the resilience of our economies and societies imho.....how the 'old' accepted objectives adapt (or not) to this new current normal and what might be the next normal.

The rights vs responsibilities issue I guess is one that we have all encountered with an MLC spouse as LP says. Did my xh have the right to determine his own path and choose a different life? Yes, of course he did. Did he also have the responsibility to not take a sledgehammer to other people's lives as far as that was possible? Yes imho.....but no one could force him to do that and he self evidently didn't want to do that. Which meant that the rest of us affected by his 'rights' also had the 'right' to protect ourselves and judge him as a poor quality human for being so callous and self-centred. Do I feel the same way about people who choose to ignore social distancing bc they want to go to the beach or exercise their legal right to protest politically? I do tbh.....I can't stop them and I don't like the idea of living in the kind of police state that throws people into jail for it....but I have opinions about folks who don't seem to balance rights with responsibilities. Jmo.

Our individual take on rights vs responsibilities probably comes down to our core beliefs and values. I am not overly anxious about getting the virus....although it doesn't sound like a great way to die....in the greater scheme of things my life is less important than it was and I have no dependents. But it is unacceptable to me to increase the risk of my inadvertently hurting others......so constraining my comfort or some of my rights or even my economic wellbeing is a price worth paying as a member of my society.  Deciding where that line is depends on my values and my society's values......so as events unfold, I guess all of us get to examine that as we go. And to consider our political systems (with a small p) and how our leaders act  is probably part of that too.

I am open-minded enough to see that both Mr Trump and Mr Johnson were elected bc they spoke to needs that people felt mattered to them, even if I might not have voted for either of them. I also think that it is entirely likely that all governments have made mistakes in their responses as well as achieved things that are less visible perhaps, and that the effectiveness of a government system is not simply based on a personal judgement of an individual leader. But I also think that in difficult times, character matters bc it shapes what leaders believe and prioritise. I personally find some of Mr Trump's lens, as shown by some of his behaviour, as troubling as I currently find Mr Johnson's absence from public discussion and the vacuum in clear fact-based government communication that seems to exist here. As Nerissa said, in uncertain times, trust matters.....as does a degree of empathy that not all boats are equal in this storm....and we all know from personal life experience how easily trust can be broken and how hard it can be to rebuild.

I guess what we will all be finding out is the extent to which the leaders and systems we currently have reflect the values and evolving priorities of the nations they lead.....

I must admit though, a bit like dealing with MLC, that there is a point for me when what I crave is feeling as if I am dealing with rational grown ups lol.
  • Logged
« Last Edit: April 20, 2020, 05:24:40 AM by Treasur »
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.


"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

  • *
  • Mentor
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 12318
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#69: April 20, 2020, 05:46:09 AM
A very simplistic thought when I woke up this morning concerning the issue of "freedom" and "rights"...we expect the police to protect us, to patrol, enforce laws, to find the bad guys. We expect the fire department to put out fires.....if our house were on fire and the firefighters told us we could not go into the inferno, we would agree that to reenter the burning building against the advice of the firefighters would be suicide.

The police, the firefighters put themselves in danger to protect us.

Doctors, nurses and other medical personal, transit workers and other essential services are risking their lives to save ours.

Innocent "victims" are infected and dying, and it really isn't clear what those numbers will eventually be and it won't be for some time yet...but we know that large numbers of people are dying and that the medical supplies are not adequate either to protect the workers nor to give care to the surge of cases that can only be somewhat contained by the measures that are being taken.

These draconian measures are the one and only weapon we have at present to contain this. In time, when treatments and a vaccine are available, we will have better tools...but right now we don't have those things. In a nation such as this, we do not even have enough cotton swabs to perform the testing that must happen to create a safe environment for ALL people to start to return to a normal life.

Many individuals and organizations are coming up with inventive ways to help...the construction of handmade masks is a great example of people trying to do what they can.

Then there are those with their guns and their flags marching against what? That around the world, public health measures are being put in place to limit the casualties.

There seems to be an extreme disconnect between a pandemic caused by a virus that not much is known about and how that has been turned somehow into a political battle and infringement of rights.

There is no basis of realism in those who think we should just open everything up and take our chances. The data is very raw and will require some more time to determine what this virus can do to people...example being the information of the way it is affecting the brain.

Those same people not social distancing yesterday at the demonstrations will be the same ones going to my local grocery store today, possibly spreading the virus to the workers who are at the cash and stocking the shelves, trying to make sure that there is a food supply.

I ask, what about the freedom and rights of those grocery store workers?

The following information was obtained from an article I read this morning about how South Korea, using the measures that we are speaking about has been able to contain the virus. This stood out to me as something to consider:

"South Korea has an enviable record of handling the outbreak. It has recorded five deaths per million of population, compared to 42 in Canada, 122 in the United States and 437 in Spain. On Sunday, there were just eight new cases reported in South Korea."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/investigates/south-korea-covid-19-outbreak-record-1.5537631

That kind of information is very valuable to me in deciding what "freedoms" and "rights" I am willing to let go of TEMPORAILITY to protect the lives of others.

An article that explains the inequality of how the poor and marginalized will be the ones who will die from COVID if the push to reopen occurs too quickly.

"A Trump reopening in May will be only a partial reopening. Not all backs are equally exposed to the whip of immediate necessity. Trump can readily enough impel office cleaners back to the bank towers; he will have a harder time with the bankers themselves. Administration officials speak of a “phased reopening.” But if the reopening starts in May, it will be phased not by medical advice, but by the hard grammar of wealth and poverty: poorest first, richest last."

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/04/trump-trading-lives-poor-economic-growth/610264/
  • Logged
« Last Edit: April 20, 2020, 06:10:40 AM by xyzcf »
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

  • *
  • Mentor
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 24015
  • Gender: Female
Xyzcf, that is one of the most sensible posts I've read.  All of it!

Thank you!  My thoughts exactly.
  • Logged
A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

N
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 887
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#71: April 20, 2020, 07:57:23 AM
  • Logged
« Last Edit: April 20, 2020, 08:11:56 AM by Nerissa »

m
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 967
  • Gender: Male
So just saw about this analysis in The Guardian. It discusses various approaches about what it would take to open economy in UK, what different measures would do from best estimates, and what it would take to get economy going at what trade off. Note this is not the government position, but it is an analysis by a think tank. But the information is well presented.

https://institute.global/sites/default/files/inline-files/A%20Sustainable%20Exit%20Strategy%2C%20Managing%20Uncertainty%20Minimising%20Harm.pdf
  • Logged
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 12531
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#73: April 20, 2020, 09:10:39 AM
Thank you for sharing that, Marvin....looks like some good consulting type analytical and presentation skills there lol.....reminds me of some of my old work projects  :)

Interesting that it comes out of the Tony Blair Insitiute I think? Wonder how that will influence how others use it? But nice to see something like this that looks at some pros and cons of different options, breaks down some different objectives and types of approach even if it also raises some questions about what is actually do-able about things like testing.
  • Logged
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.


"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

F
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 1260
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#74: April 20, 2020, 09:13:22 AM
Law, I feel the exact same way!  I read your comments, but haven’t had time to read the others!  Exactly my feelings on the state of our leadership.  Well spoken.
  • Logged
Married 23 years
Husband is 46
Me-42
4 kids 9-18 years old
BD-October 2018-ILYBNIL, wants a divorce, 2 OW at different times.
April 2019 He got an apartment and moved out.
Oct 2019-Apologized for a years worth of monster behavior.  Still wants to start divorce this Spring, is distant, but friendly.  Tries more with kids, but superficial.
2020-He has continued to help out when asked and be polite.  I do think he questions his choices at times.  I do not believe he has OW.
Oct 2020-He wants to get back together.  I am unsure. 
August 2021-.  He has shown very gradual, but consistent progress.  He moved back home.
December 2022-He has been home for 1 1/2 years reconnecting, in the room with me for several months. I now consider us reconciled.
October 2023-After two years home and being the man he should be, I finally fully let him back into my heart.

m
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 967
  • Gender: Male
Thank you for sharing that, Marvin....looks like some good consulting type analytical and presentation skills there lol.....reminds me of some of my old work projects  :)

Interesting that it comes out of the Tony Blair Insitiute I think? Wonder how that will influence how others use it? But nice to see something like this that looks at some pros and cons of different options, breaks down some different objectives and types of approach even if it also raises some questions about what is actually do-able about things like testing.

My read is this is pretty much a "state of the art" analysis of the numbers as put out by experts, and doesn't seem to have any political bias or "viewpoint." I am guessing this exact kind of analysis exists in a lot of EU and UK governments. Its just nice to get the public version behind what will most likely happen, when and how.
  • Logged
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

F
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 1260
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#76: April 20, 2020, 09:24:42 AM
Marvin, I was not speaking of those rights being infringed upon during this virus, except in a few examples.  A few churches were forced to close down drive in church’s.  Where no contact was made with others.

I absolutely believe you are slanted way to far to one side in your opinion about the virus.  We cannot ignore the economic impact.  Perhaps I understand that children will starve because I was raised in a home where we went hungry until I was taken in by another family.

To me a balance is needed.  The economy is just as important and the slow reopening done with prudence and wisdom is our only option for economic solvency.  If we don’t work for a year, we will experience a Great Depression.  We will not be able to feed our families, pay our rent.  Banks are only postponing payments for those who need it, not forgiving them.  What happens when the homeless population swells and the most vulnerable are on the streets.

So yes, from my perspective there is no winning in this and hard choices must be made.  A balanced approach that involves prudent care and behavior, but understanding people will die no matter our choices. 

Some areas need to stay closed, while others slowly open with caution.  The whole country cannot stay closed.  There should not be a one sized fits all approach.

I’m confused about your statement about our country’s policies only helping the rich!  In this last few years, our economy has soared and so has the middle class!  Those who work hard have many, many opportunities!  Those who get art degrees(or a degree that is unusable) and complain about student loans, or don’t work to learn a skill, whine about how socialism is better. 

The US is not far behind other countries.  We are a different country.  We are not yet socialist, though it seems you believe we should be.  Many of us do not want the government in charge of our lives. 

Let me give an example.  Public schools are necessary, however they take our money with high taxes, remove God from the schools and then act like public schools are free.  Well no, the $8,000 I paid in property taxes last year would disagree.  So then people cannot afford to put their children in a school with similar beliefs as their own.  I believe the government should be as minimal as possible and only be a safety net for the poor. 

I do not want high taxes and the government telling me what will be done with my money.  I want freedom and choice.

So your belief that our country is behind is not my sentiments at all.  Socialism leads to communism. 
  • Logged
« Last Edit: April 20, 2020, 09:42:38 AM by Finding Joy »
Married 23 years
Husband is 46
Me-42
4 kids 9-18 years old
BD-October 2018-ILYBNIL, wants a divorce, 2 OW at different times.
April 2019 He got an apartment and moved out.
Oct 2019-Apologized for a years worth of monster behavior.  Still wants to start divorce this Spring, is distant, but friendly.  Tries more with kids, but superficial.
2020-He has continued to help out when asked and be polite.  I do think he questions his choices at times.  I do not believe he has OW.
Oct 2020-He wants to get back together.  I am unsure. 
August 2021-.  He has shown very gradual, but consistent progress.  He moved back home.
December 2022-He has been home for 1 1/2 years reconnecting, in the room with me for several months. I now consider us reconciled.
October 2023-After two years home and being the man he should be, I finally fully let him back into my heart.

  • *
  • Mentor
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 24015
  • Gender: Female
Marvin, I agree with some of what the article says, but I'm not too sure sending the kids back to school right now is the best idea.  That means they also expect teachers, school counselors, bus drivers, admin office workers, kitchen workers and custodial workers to also leave their homes and go back to work.  That's a lot of people
I don't think the kids are the issue here.

I don't believe it's going to hurt anything if the kids stay out until September.  They are doing homework at home with their parents (or teachers via the Internet) for what...maybe another month?
  • Logged
A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

m
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 967
  • Gender: Male
FJ: as I said I will stay away from political discussions. Not that I am shy but this is a support forum, we are all in this together (LBS and Covid) and our individual political opinions are our own.

But here is what I don't agree. Freedom and governmental supports are not contradictions. The role of governments, no matter where you are on a political spectrum, is to protect its citizens. With this in mind the health and economic well beings are paramount. And I for one don't disagree (as I said) that both parts are important, its a matter of making sure it is done correctly. To show up in a demonstration and to spread the virus and to block a hospital is not in any continuum of rational, acceptable or reasonable no matter what you political ideology is. This is a video of a RESPONSIBLE demonstration that does not endanger other people nor blocks hospitals or ambulances in the name of some amorphous "right."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=jL6xH_41Odc&feature=emb_logo

I will say again: families would have ABSOLUTELY been protected financially with a different approach which has nothing to do with the size of government. Right now it is coming out that the PPP went to a lot of large and some publicly traded companies rather than the intended recipient. That exact same money could have been sent directly to working class families to protect their homes, livelihood and ability to take care of their children. So I am not sure how that is an idealogical discussion. Unless your point is the government should have done nothing to help families while they need to shelter in place for their well being.

But I will say this. Your premise has no basis in what we know. Socialism does not lead to communism, as they are very different beasts. To begin with one is a political theory, the other is an economic one. I don't think most Americans realize this, not have a firm grasp of what either one really is saying. And I will point out that every word of the US constitution has been incredibly carefully chosen and weighted, even the sequence.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

I would say the order says it all. As others have pointed out without "Life" the rest can no be had.
  • Logged
« Last Edit: April 20, 2020, 09:53:39 AM by marvin4242 »
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

m
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 967
  • Gender: Male
Marvin, I agree with some of what the article says, but I'm not too sure sending the kids back to school right now is the best idea.  That means they also expect teachers, school counselors, bus drivers, admin office workers, kitchen workers and custodial workers to also leave their homes and go back to work.  That's a lot of people
I don't think the kids are the issue here.

I don't believe it's going to hurt anything if the kids stay out until September.  They are doing homework at home with their parents (or teachers via the Internet) for what...maybe another month?

Thunder I think that is an analysis of impact, and as another friend of mine pointed out as much as the kids are not at risk they have to go back home to people who may be. So you have a very valid point there. I think that analysis can provide the data to decide which elements will or won't work for the balance of life vs economy and I agree that the concerns of parents and well being of staff has to be considered.
  • Logged
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

F
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 1260
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#80: April 20, 2020, 09:54:58 AM
Treasure-Yes!  Rights versus responsibilities!  We all have a responsibility to our fellow man!  We also have a right to earn a living and be able to feed our families.  Somehow a balance has to be struck.  Especially in areas not hard hit!

In our country they emptied the hospitals all over the country to prepare, and the hospitals were only filled up in a few areas.  So my friend who is a PA is sitting home with no patients.  She is partially layed off.  If her area is not hard hit, they should individualize the choices in that area.  One size fits all does not work.

Some want it slanted completely towards the virus.  Lives will be lost if the economy crashes as well, but we are told we cannot worry about that or we want people to die.

That is not a valid argument too me.
  • Logged
Married 23 years
Husband is 46
Me-42
4 kids 9-18 years old
BD-October 2018-ILYBNIL, wants a divorce, 2 OW at different times.
April 2019 He got an apartment and moved out.
Oct 2019-Apologized for a years worth of monster behavior.  Still wants to start divorce this Spring, is distant, but friendly.  Tries more with kids, but superficial.
2020-He has continued to help out when asked and be polite.  I do think he questions his choices at times.  I do not believe he has OW.
Oct 2020-He wants to get back together.  I am unsure. 
August 2021-.  He has shown very gradual, but consistent progress.  He moved back home.
December 2022-He has been home for 1 1/2 years reconnecting, in the room with me for several months. I now consider us reconciled.
October 2023-After two years home and being the man he should be, I finally fully let him back into my heart.

F
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 1260
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#81: April 20, 2020, 10:01:01 AM
XYZ, Absolutely we all have a responsibility to do our part.  However, those marching are marching because the business they spent 20 years building is being destroyed, because they just had to lay off employees, or perhaps they are in a state where a governor went too far!  Or a state not effected much by the virus, but the government still shut them down.

I stay home like everyone else and homeschool my kids.  I’m fine doing my part, but the areas hard hit need to shutdown and the rest of the country needs a slow reopening in a very prudent way so that we can provide for our families.  The poor children are also at great risk. 
  • Logged
Married 23 years
Husband is 46
Me-42
4 kids 9-18 years old
BD-October 2018-ILYBNIL, wants a divorce, 2 OW at different times.
April 2019 He got an apartment and moved out.
Oct 2019-Apologized for a years worth of monster behavior.  Still wants to start divorce this Spring, is distant, but friendly.  Tries more with kids, but superficial.
2020-He has continued to help out when asked and be polite.  I do think he questions his choices at times.  I do not believe he has OW.
Oct 2020-He wants to get back together.  I am unsure. 
August 2021-.  He has shown very gradual, but consistent progress.  He moved back home.
December 2022-He has been home for 1 1/2 years reconnecting, in the room with me for several months. I now consider us reconciled.
October 2023-After two years home and being the man he should be, I finally fully let him back into my heart.

  • *
  • Mentor
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 12318
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#82: April 20, 2020, 10:07:22 AM
FJ:
Quote
I want freedom and choice.

I spent the first 50 years of my life in Canada and the next 15 years in the US.

I had a great deal more freedom and choice in Canada than in the US.

I had the freedom of great medical care without any worry that I would lose my life's savings if I got sick. Prescription medications cost a fraction of what they do in the US.

I had the freedom of being able to afford to send my daughter to college without her having to incur an impossibly large amount of student loan debt.

The basic determinants of health and safety were and are provided for all citizens. I never once felt like the government was in control of my choices.

All my family still live in Canada, and they are being provided for in many ways throughout this crisis.

Yes the taxes are higher, but when I consider the $1200 per month that I had to pay to obtain medical insurance, it all rather evens out.

 
Quote
Or a state not effected much by the virus, but the government still shut them down.

This is not true FJ. Colorado has been very much affected by COVID and there were demonstrations at the capital in downtown Denver yesterday.

As I stated, the social safety programs that exist in other countries do protect people from unemployment that is not being handled in the US.

Please explain to me the need to be brandishing guns and confederate flags during these "protests". And not practicing social distancing such as wearing masks and maintaining a 6 foot distance between protestors...as I said and today going to my local grocery store and spreading the virus to others because they did not follow public health measures to protect ALL people.
  • Logged
« Last Edit: April 20, 2020, 10:09:03 AM by xyzcf »
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

F
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 1260
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#83: April 20, 2020, 10:31:25 AM
Marvin, I do believe in this case the government needed to bail us out, however they added in many extras that were not needed(in the billions).  I was only responding to your comment that the US is behind other governments who back their companies payroll by 80 percent.  Also, if we had only closed down hotspots versus the entire country and used extreme caution in the other areas, we would not have needed a stimulus on this scale.

You believe the government can be in charge of our lives and not infringe upon our rights.  I do not.  In a perfect world your statement about the the government being a support and us still having freedom would be true.  However what I see is the more powers the government gets, the more they want.  The higher the taxes the less individual choice and freedom.

Socialism leads to communism because the more power the government has, the more they want.  The more rights we give away, the less freedom we have.  With each crises they take away more of our rights.  With socialism all are dependent on the government, that dependance opens the door to more and more government control.  This is how over time societies lose freedom.  I believe individuals have a responsibility to do what is right, we should not be forced by the government.  Guidelines yes, but not forced.  I absolutely support the phased reopening here and the decisions left to each state.  I also believe hotspots should stay closed.  We should follow social distancing, and those at risk(which includes my family) should be extra vigilant.

I do not believe every time we have a crises we should put aside our constitutional rights.  Of course those protest should have been done differently, but those people are desperate and being desperate sometimes leads to poor choices.

You are saying you are not being political, but your words say otherwise.  You think the government is the answer.  I believe individual responsibility and individual accountability is the answer as well as common sense. 
  • Logged
Married 23 years
Husband is 46
Me-42
4 kids 9-18 years old
BD-October 2018-ILYBNIL, wants a divorce, 2 OW at different times.
April 2019 He got an apartment and moved out.
Oct 2019-Apologized for a years worth of monster behavior.  Still wants to start divorce this Spring, is distant, but friendly.  Tries more with kids, but superficial.
2020-He has continued to help out when asked and be polite.  I do think he questions his choices at times.  I do not believe he has OW.
Oct 2020-He wants to get back together.  I am unsure. 
August 2021-.  He has shown very gradual, but consistent progress.  He moved back home.
December 2022-He has been home for 1 1/2 years reconnecting, in the room with me for several months. I now consider us reconciled.
October 2023-After two years home and being the man he should be, I finally fully let him back into my heart.

F
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 1260
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#84: April 20, 2020, 10:38:23 AM
XYZ, I cannot explain the need to have confederate flags, or guns at the rallies, nor did I defend those choices.  I do not believe the rallies were done properly.  A line of cars would have followed social distancing guidelines.

Canada is highly restrictive on speech.  If you prefer to live there we all have our personal opinions and beliefs.  However staying here and stating another country is superior makes little sense.

I do not prefer to have the government run my children’s education, or healthcare.  I’ve seen what they have done with the schools, and I am not a fan.  Anything they get ahold in my view is not run well.
  • Logged
« Last Edit: April 20, 2020, 10:40:28 AM by Finding Joy »
Married 23 years
Husband is 46
Me-42
4 kids 9-18 years old
BD-October 2018-ILYBNIL, wants a divorce, 2 OW at different times.
April 2019 He got an apartment and moved out.
Oct 2019-Apologized for a years worth of monster behavior.  Still wants to start divorce this Spring, is distant, but friendly.  Tries more with kids, but superficial.
2020-He has continued to help out when asked and be polite.  I do think he questions his choices at times.  I do not believe he has OW.
Oct 2020-He wants to get back together.  I am unsure. 
August 2021-.  He has shown very gradual, but consistent progress.  He moved back home.
December 2022-He has been home for 1 1/2 years reconnecting, in the room with me for several months. I now consider us reconciled.
October 2023-After two years home and being the man he should be, I finally fully let him back into my heart.

  • *
  • Mentor
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 12318
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#85: April 20, 2020, 10:40:15 AM
FJ:
Quote
Canada is highly restrictive on speech.

Not sure where you get this belief from because it is simply NOT true.

Freedom of speech means that I am also free to express my views as a US citizen even when they disagree with yours.

  • Logged
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

F
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 1260
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#86: April 20, 2020, 10:41:13 AM
My understanding is that certain scripture is considered hate speech.
  • Logged
Married 23 years
Husband is 46
Me-42
4 kids 9-18 years old
BD-October 2018-ILYBNIL, wants a divorce, 2 OW at different times.
April 2019 He got an apartment and moved out.
Oct 2019-Apologized for a years worth of monster behavior.  Still wants to start divorce this Spring, is distant, but friendly.  Tries more with kids, but superficial.
2020-He has continued to help out when asked and be polite.  I do think he questions his choices at times.  I do not believe he has OW.
Oct 2020-He wants to get back together.  I am unsure. 
August 2021-.  He has shown very gradual, but consistent progress.  He moved back home.
December 2022-He has been home for 1 1/2 years reconnecting, in the room with me for several months. I now consider us reconciled.
October 2023-After two years home and being the man he should be, I finally fully let him back into my heart.

  • *
  • Mentor
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 12318
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#87: April 20, 2020, 10:46:32 AM

Quote
My understanding is that certain scripture is considered hate speech.

I have absolutely NO idea where you are getting that from. I am a practicing Christian, have been all my life and I assure you that Canada accepts and celebrates all religions, races and nationalities.

What you just wrote, without having lived there I presume, is so incredible to me....

  • Logged
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

F
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 1260
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#88: April 20, 2020, 11:00:42 AM
I will privately message you when I have time this week.  I am on many watch groups and have received this information for years. 

I will send one link now.
  • Logged
« Last Edit: April 20, 2020, 11:07:38 AM by Finding Joy »
Married 23 years
Husband is 46
Me-42
4 kids 9-18 years old
BD-October 2018-ILYBNIL, wants a divorce, 2 OW at different times.
April 2019 He got an apartment and moved out.
Oct 2019-Apologized for a years worth of monster behavior.  Still wants to start divorce this Spring, is distant, but friendly.  Tries more with kids, but superficial.
2020-He has continued to help out when asked and be polite.  I do think he questions his choices at times.  I do not believe he has OW.
Oct 2020-He wants to get back together.  I am unsure. 
August 2021-.  He has shown very gradual, but consistent progress.  He moved back home.
December 2022-He has been home for 1 1/2 years reconnecting, in the room with me for several months. I now consider us reconciled.
October 2023-After two years home and being the man he should be, I finally fully let him back into my heart.

  • *
  • Mentor
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 12318
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#89: April 20, 2020, 11:09:08 AM
Quote
I will privately message you when I have time this week.  I am on many watch groups and have received this information for years.

Thank you FJ but there is no need.

I know what I know from living in various parts of Canada for 50 years. My family lives there in several different provinces actually and I continue to travel there 4 times a year.

I have always been involved in the church, my whole life and never heard such a statement.

So I know what I know and what you are suggesting is preposterous.

It reminds me of when Americans would arrive in my home town of Montreal with skis on their ski rack in July and be astounded that we didn't have snow..or indeed comments such as , you mean you don't live in igloos?
  • Logged
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

F
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 1260
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#90: April 20, 2020, 11:12:31 AM
Ok.  It’s not made up!  Have a good day, and believe what you chose to believe.

Everyone seems quick to find fault with the US, we have plenty, but so do other countries.  People who are not native to here, come, stay and complain....

The stay part is puzzling to me if where you come from is better. 
  • Logged
« Last Edit: April 20, 2020, 11:18:04 AM by Finding Joy »
Married 23 years
Husband is 46
Me-42
4 kids 9-18 years old
BD-October 2018-ILYBNIL, wants a divorce, 2 OW at different times.
April 2019 He got an apartment and moved out.
Oct 2019-Apologized for a years worth of monster behavior.  Still wants to start divorce this Spring, is distant, but friendly.  Tries more with kids, but superficial.
2020-He has continued to help out when asked and be polite.  I do think he questions his choices at times.  I do not believe he has OW.
Oct 2020-He wants to get back together.  I am unsure. 
August 2021-.  He has shown very gradual, but consistent progress.  He moved back home.
December 2022-He has been home for 1 1/2 years reconnecting, in the room with me for several months. I now consider us reconciled.
October 2023-After two years home and being the man he should be, I finally fully let him back into my heart.

m
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 967
  • Gender: Male
FJ: I do not mean this in any disrespectful way, but you are simply saying things to me and others that are not true. I want to start with the idea that Canada is somehow "less free." This is not true. Even now you are telling the citizen of another country what their rights are. Have you actually lived in Canada and experienced this? Be careful of the amount of purposeful misinformation that is circulating in "social media."

In fact the belief that US has "all the freedom" is one of the many erroneous beliefs propagated in the US. And those of us who travel and live in other countries know this not to be true. Many countries match or exceed our level of personal freedom. It is one of many mistaken views held by a lot of Americans that is actually quite harmful. But a few notes specifically below.

Marvin, I do believe in this case the government needed to bail us out, however they added in many extras that were not needed(in the billions).  I was only responding to your comment that the US is behind other governments who back their companies payroll by 80 percent.  Also, if we had only closed down hotspots versus the entire country and used extreme caution in the other areas, we would not have needed a stimulus on this scale.

Well I am not sure where this belief comes from. The wave of Covid through US is in no way passed yet, so how can we know? The major cities and areas have reacted, a wave will follow in other areas of the country. Not necessarily the same way but you are talking like this story is already written.

Also I am curious what parts of the stimulus do you believe was unnecessary?

Quote
You believe the government can be in charge of our lives and not infringe upon our rights.  I do not.  In a perfect world your statement about the the government being a support and us still having freedom would be true.  However what I see is the more powers the government gets, the more they want.  The higher the taxes the less individual choice and freedom.

Again this is not my view, I never said government can be in charge of our lives. In fact our own constitution states that our government derives its powers and rights from its citizens, we vote. There are also right explicitly laid out that can not given away. Its a concept that has existed before the US, governance by the consent of the governed.

And btw money is NOT the central facet. The US has an obsession with taxes and money. That is only a small fraction of this "consent." Money without freedom, money without a functioning society is simply worthless. How we want to be as a society is the domain of HEALTHY political discourse. This is not what is happening in the US. And citizens don't just get to shout about rights, they have a RESPONSIBILITY as citizens (please read the writing of our founding fathers, including the Federalist Papers to see how this is the case).

Quote
Socialism leads to communism because the more power the government has, the more they want.  The more rights we give away, the less freedom we have.  With each crises they take away more of our rights.  With socialism all are dependent on the government, that dependance opens the door to more and more government control.  This is how over time societies lose freedom.  I believe individuals have a responsibility to do what is right, we should not be forced by the government.  Guidelines yes, but not forced.  I absolutely support the phased reopening here and the decisions left to each state.  I also believe hotspots should stay closed.  We should follow social distancing, and those at risk(which includes my family) should be extra vigilant.

Again with many apologies your definition of socialism is simply incorrect. I mean if I take the word out as you define it and just say "I don't want to blindly give rights to the government" I think most sane people would agree. Problem is I think you have been sold a bill of goods about that word. Socialism as it exists in a lot of countries is not at all what you think it is. In fact some of the most free countries in the world are close to real "Socialism" but strangely they are closest also to a true Christian philosophy of helping the least of us.

Quote
I do not believe every time we have a crises we should put aside our constitutional rights.  Of course those protest should have been done differently, but those people are desperate and being desperate sometimes leads to poor choices.

You are saying you are not being political, but your words say otherwise.  You think the government is the answer.  I believe individual responsibility and individual accountability is the answer as well as common sense.

Again please do not state my beliefs, or please point out where I said the above. I do not believe it is common sense to ignore knowledge, science, years of history, philosophy, political science in the made up name of "freedom." And again as I asked please point out what constitutional right you think has been violated. Because I hear a lot of people just yell words out without being able to explain or backup what they are talking about. There is no constitutional right that says you are allowed to freely go wherever you want. You are not even allowed to drive on public roads without a license. And the right to assemble does not equate to assembling anywhere, under any conditions, and as you want. That is actually called anarchy.

I am pretty sure that is not what you are saying.
  • Logged
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

N
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 887
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#92: April 20, 2020, 11:24:11 AM
The link Marvin posted about suggestions for reopening is Tony Blair's initiative.  You can find him on news programmes discussing it - saying we face the most difficult decision he has ever experienced and this is an attempt to be constructive.

I like it because it sets out choices in a way most people are able to understand and it isn’t partisan so it is reassuring to me. 

It’s interesting that at times like this, a state government is so important and the lack of it has shown up in the way the UK has not communicated properly because it isn’t ‘joined up enough.

Scotland and Wales which have socialist administrations appear to have no shortage of Ppe for example.  And I have friends in those places who have been tested where necessary, without ado aswell.
  • Logged

  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 8226
  • Gender: Female
Quote
People who are not native to here, come, stay and complain....

All those pesky settlers. Glad to see Native Americans come into the argument. What tribe are you (Ioway here)?
  • Logged

N

Nas

  • *
  • MLCer Type: Vanisher
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 3238
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#94: April 20, 2020, 11:29:26 AM


I do not believe every time we have a crises we should put aside our constitutional rights.  Of course those protest should have been done differently, but those people are desperate and being desperate sometimes leads to poor choices.

You are saying you are not being political, but your words say otherwise.  You think the government is the answer.  I believe individual responsibility and individual accountability is the answer as well as common sense.

I've not seen two more fundamentally contradictory statements in some time.
  • Logged
“The desire to be loved is the last illusion. Give it up and you will be free.” ~Margaret Atwood

N
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 887
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#95: April 20, 2020, 11:31:46 AM
FJ, perhaps you might look at information about Scandinavian countries with high taxes and socialism.  Iceland; Denmark; Sweden; Norway.  They are among the happiest counties in the World with some of the highest standards of living.  Take a look at the way they are dealing with this crisis and how their citizens are responding and being cared for.  What does freedom actually mean if you don’t live in a relatively equal society with strong community ties and a physically healthy population?
  • Logged

F
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 1260
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#96: April 20, 2020, 11:42:57 AM
Marvin!  The specific information I am speaking of about Canada is very true!  It is only in this particular area of free speech.  I offered to send her the info privately because it is so off topic.  It is not misinformation.  You are over generalizing my words.  Also, you are saying I am spreading misinformation, but have no clue what I am speaking about. 

I did not say America has the most freedom.  In fact I said, our rights are being infringed upon and I want less government involvement, not more.  Have a nice day!

If the government controls your wallet, they control your ability to eat, pay your bills, live.  Of course money matters.  I have paid double for my children’s education for years at great cost because of lack of choice.  When the government takes your money they take your choice.
  • Logged
« Last Edit: April 20, 2020, 12:33:36 PM by Finding Joy »
Married 23 years
Husband is 46
Me-42
4 kids 9-18 years old
BD-October 2018-ILYBNIL, wants a divorce, 2 OW at different times.
April 2019 He got an apartment and moved out.
Oct 2019-Apologized for a years worth of monster behavior.  Still wants to start divorce this Spring, is distant, but friendly.  Tries more with kids, but superficial.
2020-He has continued to help out when asked and be polite.  I do think he questions his choices at times.  I do not believe he has OW.
Oct 2020-He wants to get back together.  I am unsure. 
August 2021-.  He has shown very gradual, but consistent progress.  He moved back home.
December 2022-He has been home for 1 1/2 years reconnecting, in the room with me for several months. I now consider us reconciled.
October 2023-After two years home and being the man he should be, I finally fully let him back into my heart.

F
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 1260
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#97: April 20, 2020, 11:44:42 AM
NAS!  Those circumstances are few and far between.  Outliers.  Over all we are following the rules and staying home.
  • Logged
Married 23 years
Husband is 46
Me-42
4 kids 9-18 years old
BD-October 2018-ILYBNIL, wants a divorce, 2 OW at different times.
April 2019 He got an apartment and moved out.
Oct 2019-Apologized for a years worth of monster behavior.  Still wants to start divorce this Spring, is distant, but friendly.  Tries more with kids, but superficial.
2020-He has continued to help out when asked and be polite.  I do think he questions his choices at times.  I do not believe he has OW.
Oct 2020-He wants to get back together.  I am unsure. 
August 2021-.  He has shown very gradual, but consistent progress.  He moved back home.
December 2022-He has been home for 1 1/2 years reconnecting, in the room with me for several months. I now consider us reconciled.
October 2023-After two years home and being the man he should be, I finally fully let him back into my heart.

F
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 1260
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#98: April 20, 2020, 11:48:48 AM
Nerissa, Absolutely!  Those countries are in a sweet spot!  Currently they have a decent balance, that said, I would not prefer that sort of set up, because you have less individual freedoms and too much government dependance.  Parental rights are a concern of mine in some of those countries. 

That seems to be coming soon to the US as well....

  • Logged
« Last Edit: April 20, 2020, 12:14:25 PM by Finding Joy »
Married 23 years
Husband is 46
Me-42
4 kids 9-18 years old
BD-October 2018-ILYBNIL, wants a divorce, 2 OW at different times.
April 2019 He got an apartment and moved out.
Oct 2019-Apologized for a years worth of monster behavior.  Still wants to start divorce this Spring, is distant, but friendly.  Tries more with kids, but superficial.
2020-He has continued to help out when asked and be polite.  I do think he questions his choices at times.  I do not believe he has OW.
Oct 2020-He wants to get back together.  I am unsure. 
August 2021-.  He has shown very gradual, but consistent progress.  He moved back home.
December 2022-He has been home for 1 1/2 years reconnecting, in the room with me for several months. I now consider us reconciled.
October 2023-After two years home and being the man he should be, I finally fully let him back into my heart.

F
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 1260
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#99: April 20, 2020, 11:51:33 AM
I have work to do, and do not have anymore time to devote to this.  I agree to disagree with you all♥️

Ready-I fail to understand how Native Americans come into play.  What happened to them was wrong.  In fact it plays into my point.  Settlers came over and believed their way of life was superior.  They looked down on the Native American’s way instead of gleaning the good things.  We want people to come here, but not come to complain.  Not come to change our way of life.
  • Logged
« Last Edit: April 20, 2020, 12:42:41 PM by Finding Joy »
Married 23 years
Husband is 46
Me-42
4 kids 9-18 years old
BD-October 2018-ILYBNIL, wants a divorce, 2 OW at different times.
April 2019 He got an apartment and moved out.
Oct 2019-Apologized for a years worth of monster behavior.  Still wants to start divorce this Spring, is distant, but friendly.  Tries more with kids, but superficial.
2020-He has continued to help out when asked and be polite.  I do think he questions his choices at times.  I do not believe he has OW.
Oct 2020-He wants to get back together.  I am unsure. 
August 2021-.  He has shown very gradual, but consistent progress.  He moved back home.
December 2022-He has been home for 1 1/2 years reconnecting, in the room with me for several months. I now consider us reconciled.
October 2023-After two years home and being the man he should be, I finally fully let him back into my heart.

  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 12531
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#100: April 20, 2020, 12:39:54 PM
And that's perfectly ok, FJ.
It seems to me that events are probably causing many of us to consider some of our beliefs and assumptions about how our own countries work and others as look at different ways of handling this crisis. And some of that includes trying to understand different experiences and perspectives to our own.

Most nations have a balancing point about government activity vs individual activity. And a global and national crisis of this kind obviously raises questions about both.  Of course our individual countries have their own cultures and their own histories too. I have always found it interesting to look at those quirks as an outsider as well as hear how others see the quirks of my home country. And all nations have aspects that puzzle outsiders perhaps but make sense to those that live there probably. I still remember someone saying to me that they found it strange that so many people in England (bc different bits of the UK do have differences  :) ) could be more friendly than his image of them....yet would rarely invite you to their home even if you knew them quite well and socialised often. Or why they seem to drink and swear a lot while also being strangely polite in other ways like queuing. Or why we placed such importance on things like the aristocracy/monarchy or very old buildings that didn't really meet the needs of modern life when at the same time we seemed to really value an 'egalitarian access' healthcare system and loved our modern technology!

One of the issues that I suspect, even now, would probably be a step too far for most in the UK would be something that felt like carrying some kind of virtual identity papers that you had to use to access places. There is a deep kind of discomfort with that which is probably a function of our own history, a suspicion of that kind of central government control over some kinds of information.....although we probably take comfort that control is assuaged by incompetence lol. Oh, and access to outside space too probably....again perhaps an old residue from feudal times and the concept of common land. I have no idea if these attitudes will change as a consequence of this crisis. Or how we will balance our inherent hypocrisy of cheering with love for the NHS but not much liking the idea of high tax rates bc we believed historically that they reduce enterprise and cause highly skilled people to work elsewhere. But I guess different times and a different generation may prioritise differently.....who knows.

America I think is still viewed as an important global power, both culturally and economically. (And truthfully we could all probably do with learning rather more about China as a global economic power too.) Hence perhaps why some of us living elsewhere ask questions to try to understand things that might puzzle us sometimes or feel concerned about how changes in the US might affect global issues that affect our countries too. And of course many of us might have a limited experience of the diversity of things in a country as large as the US. (I still remember Ames, Iowa as a truly strange place full of incredibly nice friendly people who expected me to be interested in hybrid corn and jello salad options....very different from Washington where I'd come from or Houston where I was flying to next!)
  • Logged
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.


"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

N
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 887
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#101: April 20, 2020, 01:16:16 PM
Here is simple and clear information  for the lay person.  It’s UK centric  but the science shared is from around the World.

https://www.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/coronavirus-exit-strategies/

Collated by this man who is a career scientist but also experienced in explaining science to the public through having been  editor of New Scientist and a Professor of Public Engagement.

https://www.rogerhighfield.com/about


And then this At Johns Hopkins in the US:

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/news
  • Logged
« Last Edit: April 20, 2020, 01:33:23 PM by Nerissa »

  • *****
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 13334
  • Gender: Male
Re: Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#102: April 20, 2020, 01:53:06 PM
I have work to do, and do not have anymore time to devote to this.  I agree to disagree with you all♥️
You dont disagree with me, I just dont have the time to devote to it either.
  • Logged

N
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 887
  • Gender: Female
Re: Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#103: April 20, 2020, 01:56:18 PM
I have work to do, and do not have anymore time to devote to this.  I agree to disagree with you all♥️
You dont disagree with me, I just dont have the time to devote to it either.

Here’s a piece I think will garner agreement.

https://www.dalailama.com/news/2020/prayer-is-not-enough-the-dalai-lama-on-why-we-need-to-fight-coronavirus-with-compassion/amp?__twitter_impression=true
  • Logged

  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 12531
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#104: April 20, 2020, 02:30:07 PM
Thank you for those interesting links, Nerissa.
  • Logged
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.


"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

F
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 1260
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#105: April 20, 2020, 06:53:30 PM
Thank you Treasure!  We also have vast opinions here and perceptions.  Our country is changing and many of us do not like the change, which I think may be why an attack dog was voted in to lead.  We are a divided nation.  I also believe we are a nation who’s tired of being picked apart by the rest of the world.  Or should I say, many of us are.  The half of the country that I tend to side with is fiercely independent, entrepreneurs, hard workers, they believe in individual rights and individual responsibility, a small government,  making your own way, etc.  It’s that pesky other half...😉. I do not see us carrying papers to get around either.

I ended up doing night homework with the kiddies because I messed around here and at the store too long!  I don’t really have time for this kind of discussion, so lesson learned!  ❤️

Thank you Nerissa and Old Pilot!❤️

  • Logged
« Last Edit: April 20, 2020, 08:10:46 PM by Finding Joy »
Married 23 years
Husband is 46
Me-42
4 kids 9-18 years old
BD-October 2018-ILYBNIL, wants a divorce, 2 OW at different times.
April 2019 He got an apartment and moved out.
Oct 2019-Apologized for a years worth of monster behavior.  Still wants to start divorce this Spring, is distant, but friendly.  Tries more with kids, but superficial.
2020-He has continued to help out when asked and be polite.  I do think he questions his choices at times.  I do not believe he has OW.
Oct 2020-He wants to get back together.  I am unsure. 
August 2021-.  He has shown very gradual, but consistent progress.  He moved back home.
December 2022-He has been home for 1 1/2 years reconnecting, in the room with me for several months. I now consider us reconciled.
October 2023-After two years home and being the man he should be, I finally fully let him back into my heart.

  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 1315
  • Gender: Female
Re: Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#106: April 20, 2020, 10:12:25 PM
I do appreciate the discussion that's been had here, messy though it was at times   

For me, I'm approaching the virus in much the same way I approached MLC. 

1.  It is happening.
2.  I can't control or change that fact.
3.  All I can control is my reaction.
4.  I get to decide how this does or does not change (define) me and my life, goals, hopes, and dreams.

Collect data/information
Try to square that with beliefs
Contrast/compare others beliefs
Accept that I have very little control
Decide important lessons/impact I will allow it to have
Look to the future
Reflect on ways to help others

Events like this can help us focus in on defining what is most important, to more clearly define our personal  core beliefs, to encourage us to see that what once appeared to be the only issue of importance can be knocked down in importance in the virtual blink of an eye. 

Obviously for me, truth, respect, honor, dignity are core values so qualities I seek in troubling times from a leader that engender trust and security.  Those are also the qualities I once found in my ex pre-MLC.  When in MLC he blew up those qualities and I believe this is a partial answer to why I have no interest in rekindling a relationship of any sort with him.  I would say this is a difference between a stuck part and honing a core belief. My core belief system  was uncovered and redefined DURING his MLC, but it was not controlled or defined BY MLC.  It's a core belief I won't sacrifice or I'll risk losing a part of myself.  It is one of the positives, the blessings to have come from his MLC

To the future,
I'm done shopping on Amazon and eBay buying Chinese made things because they are inexpensive, convenient.

I'm doing some home projects.  If I'm having to stay home in the future, I want a place of comfort and refuge to enjoy.  To that end, FLOWERS!!  TREES!! BIRDS!!! 

I'm planning now how to rebuild my businesses.  No sense looking at the past when I have too much to do today for the future.

I agreed to participate in a local government group concerning property tax issues.

I will begin to donate time/services to the local homeless shelter that has been so ravaged by the virus. 

Good luck to you all,

Lp
  • Logged
if people won’t listen to you, there’s no point in talking to people. If they won’t listen, you’re just banging your head against a wall.

Sadly Ive used up all the time I had allotted to spend banging my head on the wall

  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 12531
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#107: April 20, 2020, 10:33:41 PM
Quote
Events like this can help us focus in on defining what is most important, to more clearly define our personal  core beliefs, to encourage us to see that what once appeared to be the only issue of importance can be knocked down in importance in the virtual blink of an eye. 

Can only agree with this. I too see the similarities in lining up with my core beliefs rather than the Stuck parts, just took a while to get there post PTSD  :)

Like you, focusing on what I believe in and value, what I can control and how to support others while accepting the limits of my knowledge and current realities feels like an ok way to go. Counting my blessings too. Focusing on the next normal while adapting to the current new normal, I guess.
  • Logged
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.


"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

m
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 967
  • Gender: Male
Re: Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#108: April 21, 2020, 01:04:54 AM
Everyone seems quick to find fault with the US, we have plenty, but so do other countries.  People who are not native to here, come, stay and complain....

The stay part is puzzling to me if where you come from is better.

Interesting, so we are free, but not free to criticize the shortcoming of this country because we were not born here? So freedom has different levels based on birth? Or is it by how many generations? Or is it by what we believe? I am a bit confused. I mean its ok to have freedom to spread the virus and to block hospital access by some, but those of us who point out how we can have a better society should simply leave and go back because we were not born here. Interesting take. Considering in my opinion the ONLY unique characteristic of the US system WAS that citizenship was absolute and equal (with one exception) when granted, whether by birth or by choice. In fact I would say those of us who CHOSE citizenship made a very conscious and aware decision, we didn’t fall into it. And FJ “ways of life” always change in all societies, trying to hold on to what was has never worked. Also in a country as broad and diverse as the US there has never been a single “way of life” in the history of the entire country. We are not a homogenous group, we have never been. So I am not sure which “way of life” you are referring to.

As for government controlling your wallet: this is another one of those false repeated stories. Taxes are not control, taxes are the cost of having a FUNCTIONING society. It is not theft. It is not a punishment. No we don’t have a right to keep all our money AND live in a society. There can be very good conversations to be had around the balance of tax vs services, what we collectively want, etc. And we used to have those many years ago. Now its just people shouting about “theft” while still wanting to have the security of a safe country, roads, services and a good quality of life. It seems a bit entitled to want to keep your money and to have things for free at the same time. Also it puzzles me, we live in a country where it is the government of the people by the people. We vote, we decide, we are in control only IF we educate ourselves and vote. So how can the government be our enemy? We are the ones who have made it the way it is, we the voters have all the power. How we choose to exercise that is another matter.

I think this Covid pandemic would be a great opportunity to see the strength and weaknesses of societies we live in, then try to make them better. If we are not just concerned with our limited self interest we would see how we are stronger always as INDIVIDUALS within GROUPS. Individuals can’t care for themselves when sick, individuals can’t be experts in all fields, its not individuals that are saving lives and making breakthroughs every day, it is TEAMS of people. If you stop thinking of the government as the enemy you may even realize that at times like this government is POOLING our common resources to help all of us, economically, medically and by guidance. Or at least it should be, and is in most places.

I think what makes a place great is the ability of its citizens to be honest about themselves and always want better. Not just pretend it is flawless and perfect. That is what third world dictatorships do, look at N Kora and Russia. Great societies own their strengths and acknowledge and correct their weaknesses.

Nerissa: thanks for the excellent informative links. What we need is more information and knowledge and less opinion to get through this as well as we can.

LP: thank you for some great food for thought.
  • Logged
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

m
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 967
  • Gender: Male
Re: Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#109: April 21, 2020, 01:24:38 AM
Just came across this article, it is very preliminary and it will be interesting to see if the finding it borne out with more data. The source paper studies both how asymptomatic transmission as carrier showed the same viral load as someone who had symptoms. And how one boy with multiple viruses passed on the non Covid one to his siblings, but not the Covid virus which suggests kids are not good spreaders. I wonder if this is what is behind the talk about reopening schools up to around age 14 or so?

Of course this is one cluster study, but it will be interesting to find out if this is being found to be the case generally. In that case the whole question of schools reopening may have a different angle to it.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/21/boy-with-covid-19-did-not-transmit-disease-to-more-than-170-contacts
  • Logged
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 8226
  • Gender: Female
Re: Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#110: April 21, 2020, 02:13:21 AM
Quote
Ready-I fail to understand how Native Americans come into play.
 

It was sarcasm. You don't want people "not native to here" to complain about the fine country built on this stolen land, but the bulk of the people living here for these mere hundreds of years since the country was established are descendants of immigrants. No culture, race, or creed has been immune from being changed here.

Quote
What happened to them was wrong.  In fact it plays into my point.  Settlers came over and believed their way of life was superior.  They looked down on the Native American’s way instead of gleaning the good things.  We want people to come here, but not come to complain.  Not come to change our way of life.

I don't think American culture, whatever that is, is in jeopardy. ;) I'm glad you're choosing to self-isolate with your kids. It is the right choice. I feel very badly for those who are risking not just their own health, but the health of others they could potentially infect. I don't wish for anyone to have to learn the hard way that without your health and your loved ones, the perceived temporary loss of some sort of liberty means little. But I will concede that I had those same sorts of impending feelings when Bush Jr. started some of the practices after 9/11 that we still utilize today. Remember showing up at the airport and getting on a plane without a long wait and a pat down? The dangerous racial profiling that is still the norm because of it? Way of life changed for lots of brown people forever who did nothing wrong. Let's not forget how unfair that is as well, but also that it's an accepted part of the routine now because it helps ensure that if we all submit to it, the collective stays safer from a possible threat. Just like now, only the 'enemy' we're protecting ourselves from is invisible, doesn't discriminate, and has a potential for destruction that we still can't quite measure.

Now if people (or one person) would just stop complaining about Obama...;) ;D ;D
  • Logged
« Last Edit: April 21, 2020, 02:16:44 AM by Ready2Transform »

N
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 887
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#111: April 21, 2020, 04:14:41 AM
Well not to worry.  Trump has (by tweet) banned all immigration.

Xenophobia will save the day
  • Logged
« Last Edit: April 21, 2020, 04:16:14 AM by Nerissa »

  • *
  • Mentor
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 12318
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#112: April 21, 2020, 05:39:05 AM
Nerissa:

Quote
Well not to worry.  Trump has (by tweet) banned all immigration.

Xenophobia will save the day

My heart breaks at this. How can this happen in a democracy? How can one individual(dictator) put into place such a measure that will do absolutely nothing to prevent the continuing spread and disaster that COVID is inflicting on the whole world?

As was written by Emma Lazarus in November 2, 1883 is engraved on the Statue of Liberty, known throughout the world as the "Land of the Free"

The New Colossus

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

  • Logged
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

m
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 967
  • Gender: Male
Re: Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#113: April 21, 2020, 05:54:53 AM
How can this happen in a democracy?

A democracy is no guarantee of wisdom or understanding. It simply means the majority chooses what they want. The founding fathers, concerned about the "tyranny of the majority" attempted to build safeguards into the US constitution. But they are not guarantees of success. If the electorate chooses to remain willfully ignorant the guardrails won't work. At this point a lot of people don't understand the difference between opinion and fact, that they are entitled to their opinion but not their "facts." When presented with information they simply reject it and say "I know what I know."

Once voters start making up their own "truth" disconnected from reality all bets are off. I think we all know how that goes when we see it in our MLCers.
  • Logged
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

A
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 3612
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#114: April 21, 2020, 06:23:45 AM
Hello! 

I hope you are all staying healthy in these unusual and turbulent times, which calls for checking in with my HS buddies. 

Please, if I may offer the perspective of a healthcare worker who is deeply involved in a world-wide Covid 19 research and at the frontline of caring for patients afflicted with the pandemic. 

H is a physician and an epidemiologist with decades of experience and hundreds of publications on public health.  At the moment, he is heavily involved in Covid19 research.  He has several conference calls every day with numerous doctors in North America, Europe and East Asia who are directly treating and researching C19 patients.  No, they and H do not get paid a single cent for their work.  It is all in the spirit of professional cooperation, academic curiosity and community service, the last point being the central theme. 

I feel comfortable saying that H knows what he is talking about and I respect his opinion on the current pandemic.  This is what he tells family and friends when they seek his advice:

“In the absence of any proven and well vetted vaccine and medication, our best treatment is social distancing. Be patient, be tolerant, and be charitable.  For the time being: Stay home, stay alive.  Stay home, keep the community alive.  Stay home, keep me and other healthcare workers alive.“

An entire wing of the hospital where H works has been prepared for Covid19 patients.  It’s standing almost empty.  H is delighted — it means social distancing and closing down non-essential businesses, events and schools are working.  Nearly empty C19 wards mean that the government took action in time but prepared for the worst case scenario.  It means people are trusting the experts’ recommendations and are complying.  It means scores upon scores of lives, especially the most vulnerable among us, were saved by collective actions of the citizens.  The Covid19 wards will stay nearly empty if we continue to practice social distancing until the infection and death rates go down to the level deemed safe by the population health statistical modelling experts.  These are one of those things lay people (including H, he says) do not know enough to form meaningful opinions on them.  H tells me those empty wards will stay for a while as the virus is not going anywhere fast.  It’s found a wonderful host (humans) and, among them, behold, some individuals that are willing to be its foot soldiers, voluntarily and ‘generously’ spreading it to others.

Many people I know have lost their jobs.  Money is very tight.  Some have closed their businesses and are suffering from huge financial losses. These are some of the serious consequences of shuttering non-essential businesses.  These are facts and mostly beyond our control.  The only thing we can control is our response.  (Heard that before?  ;D) There seem to be two major types of responses to them, rather similar to LBS’s responses to MLC and MLCers.   

1. Some are angry and bitter about the virus and the restrictions put in place to protect the community.  Some people are busy looking for others to blame and falsely accuse.  Some complain that they cannot go about doing their favourite activities and ask where is my freedom.

2. Some count their blessings — they and their families are healthy, even if their financial situation is nothing but rosy.  They are thankful they have a roof over their heads and enough food on the table, and they have each other.  I hear this time and again — many things in life are superfluous: this pandemic has given a precious opportunity to prioritize what really matters in life.  Money, beyond their needs, seems to have been taken off their list.  For the time being, anyway.   Of course, there are those who worry about roof and food.  Each one of us needs to dig deep and help those in need.  I am thankful and feel blessed that our government is leading us in this charitable effort to help suffering fellow human beings. If I may allow myself to make one cheeky comment, please — No, the name of PM’s is not on the relief cheques.

In all this turmoil, a sense of social responsibility is strong in my neck of the woods — everything is not about ME.  It is about my neighbours, too.   A period of self control and self sacrifice will benefit the whole society, and in turn, it will benefit each individual.   What goes around, comes around. 

Where I live, family, friends and community are rallying around those struggling financially or emotionally  — daily calls with those who live alone, gifting money, offering cooked meals and playing a secrete Santa by dropping off store vouchers in the letterbox of the families whose breadwinners lost their jobs.  There is a flower angel amongst us who has been dropping off beautiful bouquets to those who desperately need a boost.

The pandemic is bringing out the best in my community and country.  And the worst. I am thankful ‘the best’ outnumbers ‘the worst’ by far.   My belief in the goodness of human beings is holding well.

Stay safe. 
(((((HUGS))))))
  • Logged
Feb 2015: BD. 
Dec 2017: Seriously reconnecting

H never left home.

N

Nas

  • *
  • MLCer Type: Vanisher
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 3238
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#115: April 21, 2020, 07:03:29 AM
I wrote a long response with links and information and lost it. 

So I'll just say this:

"The half of the country that I tend to side with is fiercely independent, entrepreneurs, hard workers, they believe in individual rights and individual responsibility, a small government,  making your own way, etc.  It’s that pesky other half...😉. "

This quote troubles me.  The "othering" of people leads to nothing good.  Ever. 
And the poorest and most vulnerable among us are also hardworking people who just may not have had the same choices and opportunities in life.  Many people live in circumstances that don't allow them to "make their own way" without some help. 
  • Logged
“The desire to be loved is the last illusion. Give it up and you will be free.” ~Margaret Atwood

  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 12531
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#116: April 21, 2020, 07:40:49 AM
Nice to hear from you, Acorn, and that you are well. Please thank your h for his service and commitment.

I agree with you, Nas. If nothing else, I hope this global crisis causes us all to pause a moment before we make assumptions about 'others'. If only bc tbh, if we found ourselves ill and needing care, we would hope that we would be treated as an 'us' not an 'other'. It is a fact that, given the demographics of our frontline workers here in the UK as well as in some other countries perhaps, many of those who are risking their lives to save ours are disoroprtionately from communities or countries seen as 'other' by some. And that their increased risk is now starting to be seen in some of the mortality figures.

I imagine that, given your past health trials, this is a particularly difficult time for you Nas and I hope you know that you are still in our loving thoughts even if you have stepped back from posting for a while. Bc HS is an 'us' too I hope. And you are always part of 'us'. Xxx
  • Logged
« Last Edit: April 21, 2020, 07:42:05 AM by Treasur »
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.


"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

N
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 887
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#117: April 21, 2020, 07:55:22 AM
Quote
This quote troubles me.  The "othering" of people leads to nothing good.  Ever. 
And the poorest and most vulnerable among us are also hardworking people who just may not have had the same choices and opportunities in life.  Many people live in circumstances that don't allow them to "make their own way" without some help.

I agree with all this.  . But where government evacuates its own failures and pathologies  into ‘the other’ - be it foreign powers; immigrants; dissidents etc, they engender and exploit the same fears In their citizens with disastrous results and a significant number of people end up voting against their own interests without realising it. 

Divide and rule.  It’s ‘splitting’ - in action in society.  .  Encourage citizens to tilt at straw windmills and demonise  ‘the other’ and ignore what those in power are doing. We have seen  it in the UK over the past few years and I hope this crisis causes a lasting re think of our priorities.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/commentisfree/2020/apr/21/sweden-covid-19-policy-trust-citizens-state

A lovely article here which describes and expands upon Treasur’s earlier post about historical cultural and societal differences illustrated in the way different countries respond to crisis. 

And it’s nice to read posts from two people who have been away for a while 🤗

  • Logged
« Last Edit: April 21, 2020, 07:59:25 AM by Nerissa »

  • *
  • Mentor
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 4858
  • Gender: Male
  • Back to being #1 for my daughters!!!!
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#118: April 21, 2020, 08:31:58 AM
Hello,

A lot goes on the forum when you have a busy day and you get home to be told that the new washer is leaking. It's two years old. I look it over and run a wash only to find out the stand pip is clogged. I use drano and run a hose down the pipe and flush it out. Washer is back. Go to bed and awaken to find covid-19 thread has gone full tilt from my post on High Reliability Organizations to a discussion on protests to socialism, and the loss of freedom in the US.

Quote
FJ, perhaps you might look at information about Scandinavian countries with high taxes and socialism.  I

I live in California. A radio host stated that California had embraced "new socialism". That is they tax like a socialist state but give none of the benefits.

Now a couple of quotes on education:

Quote
I have paid double for my children’s education for years at great cost because of lack of choice. 

and

Quote
Public schools are necessary, however they take our money with high taxes, remove God from the schools and then act like public schools are free. 

I worked for a public system for 30 years. I have now worked for a charter school for one. While charters are not perfect, they do provide choice although the state is working hard to regulate them as much as public as public schools, I believe charters have helped public schools become more innovative and competitive. Education is expensive, but ignorance is twice as much and leads to a much lower quality of life.

I can't really respond to the God aspect because I do believe in separation of church and state and while I received a lot of compliments as being a highly effective teacher, I am by no means qualified to teach God to anybody. Just to be fair, I never felt qualified to teach sex education either.  Thank God I taught first and second grade.


Quote
Quote
Obviously for me, truth, respect, honor, dignity are core values so qualities I seek in troubling times from a leader that engender trust and security.

Wow, I really liked this. May I also had the word humble? I spent the past seven years working close with two leaders and they were strong, open, and honest. When one walked on the campus and saw a piece of trash, he picked it up and threw it away. No comment. If he came up to a table and spoke to the members, he always took the time to ask if he could clear away their plates. He valued people's opinions and showed respect even when he disagreed. The other leader always was polite and compassionate for all the employees. I learned a lot from observing how they lead and model my own leadership after them.

Quote
No sense looking at the past when I have too much to do today for the future.

Nice comment. I like to say that we live forward and understand backwards.

Also good to hear from Nas and Acorn.

I will post later on HRO's. Got to get to work.

((((Ready))))
  • Logged
"Always look in the mirror and love what you see."

  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 8226
  • Gender: Female
Re: Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#119: April 21, 2020, 08:39:58 AM
I wrote a long response with links and information and lost it. 

So I'll just say this:

"The half of the country that I tend to side with is fiercely independent, entrepreneurs, hard workers, they believe in individual rights and individual responsibility, a small government,  making your own way, etc.  It’s that pesky other half...😉. "

This quote troubles me.  The "othering" of people leads to nothing good.  Ever. 
And the poorest and most vulnerable among us are also hardworking people who just may not have had the same choices and opportunities in life.  Many people live in circumstances that don't allow them to "make their own way" without some help.

This fiercely independent, hard working entrepreneur agrees. When we hold fast that "they are not like me", you don't see that either "they" really are, or maybe we don't have as clear of a hold on our own identity as we think you do (ask an MLCer about that one!). I could roll on forever about both my great-grandmother and grandfather coming off of the res and running successful small businesses, thank God passing that spirit on through our generations, but still I know their suffering too. Unimaginable poverty that isn't just a bootstrap challenge. It changes who people are. Many people (and I direct this at no one in particular, so not a personal attack) I have heard tell me all about how people need to quit being "lazy", or "welfare queens", etc. are people who have rarely worked, been supported from parents' house to husband's house, enjoying a life of a $5 cup of sugar every morning they pick up in their luxury SUV. For most of us here, MLC has been the "great equalizer" that we've learned holds no cares for our tax brackets or station in life - rock bottom hits just as hard, and comes just as much from left field. This virus (and thank you Acorn, and thank your husband!!) is much the same. It's a natural (?) disaster. When tornadoes hit us here in the midwest, and destruction leaves cities dangerous for days at a time while cleanup is happening, sometimes curfews happen. That is a revocation of civil rights, for sure, but it is for public safety. It lasts as long as it needs to. I hope for all small businesses (and mine is very lucky since I've been able to continue working throughout), as long as it needs to is as short as possible. Be safe, above all things.
  • Logged

  • *
  • Mentor
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 12318
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#120: April 21, 2020, 09:16:01 AM
Since Trump by an executive order (? meaning he alone makes that decision) wants to stop all immigration to the US on the false premise that this will "protect" us from COVID and save jobs for Americans then will he also close our borders so there is no possible exchange of bodies or goods from anywhere else in the world to possibly "contaminate" the country?

What will be next, anyone on a work visa or with a green card will be "eliminated" to prevent any non-American from taking a job away?

Sounds very much like COMMUNISM to me. Building "walls" to keep people out or to keep people in?

Not much freedom there.

The dangers of this ideology from an economic standpoint are immense. The humanitarian effects will also cause lasting issues as this country is further divided into them and us. The "others".
  • Logged
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

M
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 6859
  • Gender: Male
Re: Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#121: April 21, 2020, 09:48:07 AM
I live in New York state in the United States. It bothers me when I hear complaints about God being removed from our public schools.

I'm 61 years old. I was raised a Catholic in a small town in rural America. I still consider myself to be Catholic but attend a Wesleyan church. I served in the US military, both Air Force and Air National Guard. I consider myself both a Christian and an American.

I've learned over the years that there are a lot of places in the United States that are nothing like the place where I was raised. We are United States but we have a lot of different backgrounds and beliefs. Although sometimes a source of controversy, I believe that is also one of this country's greatest strengths.

When people see me, a white, slightly beyond middle-aged male, they may have a hard time accepting that I am a member of a minority that was highly discriminated against but it's true. My ancestors were Irish Catholics, two groups that were both despised in the America they immigrated to. They were fortunate to find jobs as menial laborers. They were considered to be drunken papists. A major milestone was achieved two years after I was born when John F Kennedy became the first US president with Irish Catholic ancestry. Maybe this has helped me to be more accepting of people with other backgrounds and beliefs. BTW, I am not an Irish-American. I am an American with Irish heritage.

So why does it bother me that God has been removed from the public schools? It bothers me because the US is not a theocracy, it is a republic, and I am glad that it is because that provides me with the freedom to worship the God of my choosing. If God were to play a role in our public schools I have to ask, whose God? The Christian God, If so, which version? Catholic, Wesleyan, Baptist, Episcopalian, Presbyterian? Or maybe the Mormon God or the 7th Day Adventists God? But why not the Hindu God or the Islamic God? Do we really have room for all of these Gods in our public schools? If not, how do we choose the right one?

If you want to have God in your children's school, you can. You can send your children to a religious school or even home school them. But children attending public schools shouldn't have be forced to worship somebody else's God as a condition for attending.

Since Trump by an executive order (? meaning he alone makes that decision) wants to stop all immigration to the US on the false premise that this will "protect" us from COVID and save jobs for Americans then will he also close our borders so there is no possible exchange of bodies or goods from anywhere else in the world to possibly "contaminate" the country?

What will be next, anyone on a work visa or with a green card will be "eliminated" to prevent any non-American from taking a job away?

Sounds very much like COMMUNISM to me. Building "walls" to keep people out or to keep people in?

Not much freedom there.

The dangers of this ideology from an economic standpoint are immense. The humanitarian effects will also cause lasting issues as this country is further divided into them and us. The "others".

We on this forum should be very familiar with this type of behavior. This is what naricissts do.

https://thoughtcatalog.com/shahida-arabi/2016/06/20-diversion-tactics-highly-manipulative-narcissists-sociopaths-and-psychopaths-use-to-silence-you/

https://theconversation.com/pathological-power-the-danger-of-governments-led-by-narcissists-and-psychopaths-123118

Returning to the thread's topic, Covid-19, I have to admit I am not a big fan of my state's governor, Andrew Cuomo, but I also have to admit that he has done a lot of things right in dealing with this pandemic, including battling with the federal government to try to get the federal government to do their proper part.

Cuomo is continuing to move in the right direction, IMO, by instituting statewide SARS-CoV2 antibody testing that started this week. Even though there are still questions regarding what the presence of antibodies means with respect to immunity, having the data will help our decision makers to make better informed decisions and that is something that I am very much in favor of.

https://www.newsday.com/news/health/coronavirus/blood-test-antibodies-immunity-1.44000316
  • Logged

N

Nas

  • *
  • MLCer Type: Vanisher
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 3238
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#122: April 21, 2020, 10:10:00 AM


I imagine that, given your past health trials, this is a particularly difficult time for you Nas and I hope you know that you are still in our loving thoughts even if you have stepped back from posting for a while. Bc HS is an 'us' too I hope. And you are always part of 'us'. Xxx

Thanks, Treasur, that means a lot, and you have all been in my thoughts as well.   :-*
  • Logged
“The desire to be loved is the last illusion. Give it up and you will be free.” ~Margaret Atwood

m
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 967
  • Gender: Male
Re: Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#123: April 21, 2020, 10:31:07 AM
I just wanted to say it is such a pleasure to read so many well thought out, honest, open and interesting viewpoints that are shared here. Usually in most places these kind of conversations can devolve, but not here. And regardless of viewpoint and agreement I for one greatly appreciate well thought out, argued and reasoned viewpoints in any context.

So thank you all.
  • Logged
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

  • *
  • Mentor
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 24015
  • Gender: Female
Re: Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#124: April 21, 2020, 11:11:38 AM
I like what you said about the public schools.  There are too many religions so who would choose?
I chose to sent my kids to private Catholic schools, because I did want that religious aspect, and we are Catholic.

I have to tell you, I have become quite a fan of Cuomo.  I like how he stands his ground and it's afraid to stand up for the people of his state.

Here in MN we have governor Walz, who also has been a pretty good governor.

Hugs, Nas!  :-*
  • Logged
A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

F
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 1260
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#125: April 21, 2020, 01:51:29 PM
Marvin, we cannot really discuss this because neither of us believe in the other ones premise. 

You are free here to do as you please.  That is not in question.  But if you are here to complain and you are not from here, well, I’m sure the country you miss and is so great would hopefully take you back!

Some taxes are necessary.  However you saying me believing In low taxes and a small government is false.  Haha!  Is everything you don’t believe misinformation!  Seriously!  It is a different way of running a government, it is not a false way, it’s just not the way you want.

We have different beliefs and we could talk endlessly about those differences, but you won’t sway me, and I won’t sway you.  So, again.  I agree to disagree and just don’t want to waste my energy.  We have different beliefs and visions for this country and probably life.

I will say, if as an American I became a citizen of a different country, I hopefully would recognize that it was my choice.  Not come and try to make the new country like the one I came from.  Because each country is unique and has good and bad things.  If your old country is so great, again, please feel free to catch a flight when Corona ends.

  • Logged
« Last Edit: April 21, 2020, 02:05:35 PM by Finding Joy »
Married 23 years
Husband is 46
Me-42
4 kids 9-18 years old
BD-October 2018-ILYBNIL, wants a divorce, 2 OW at different times.
April 2019 He got an apartment and moved out.
Oct 2019-Apologized for a years worth of monster behavior.  Still wants to start divorce this Spring, is distant, but friendly.  Tries more with kids, but superficial.
2020-He has continued to help out when asked and be polite.  I do think he questions his choices at times.  I do not believe he has OW.
Oct 2020-He wants to get back together.  I am unsure. 
August 2021-.  He has shown very gradual, but consistent progress.  He moved back home.
December 2022-He has been home for 1 1/2 years reconnecting, in the room with me for several months. I now consider us reconciled.
October 2023-After two years home and being the man he should be, I finally fully let him back into my heart.

F
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 1260
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#126: April 21, 2020, 01:54:01 PM
Ready!  Ha!  Yes!  These crises change things and because of 9/11 people are weary here of long term new laws and rules that may work for this crises, but may stay when it’s over.
  • Logged
Married 23 years
Husband is 46
Me-42
4 kids 9-18 years old
BD-October 2018-ILYBNIL, wants a divorce, 2 OW at different times.
April 2019 He got an apartment and moved out.
Oct 2019-Apologized for a years worth of monster behavior.  Still wants to start divorce this Spring, is distant, but friendly.  Tries more with kids, but superficial.
2020-He has continued to help out when asked and be polite.  I do think he questions his choices at times.  I do not believe he has OW.
Oct 2020-He wants to get back together.  I am unsure. 
August 2021-.  He has shown very gradual, but consistent progress.  He moved back home.
December 2022-He has been home for 1 1/2 years reconnecting, in the room with me for several months. I now consider us reconciled.
October 2023-After two years home and being the man he should be, I finally fully let him back into my heart.

m
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 967
  • Gender: Male
Re: Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#127: April 21, 2020, 02:04:48 PM
Marvin, we cannot really discuss this because neither of us believe in the other ones premise. 

Some taxes are necessary.  We have different beliefs and we could talk endlessly about those differences, but you won’t sway me, and I won’t sway you.  So, again.  I agree to disagree and just don’t want to waste my energy.  We have different beliefs and visions for this country and probably life.

I will say, if as an American I became a citizen of a different country, I hopefully would recognize that it was my choice.  Not come and try to make the new country like the one I came from.  Because each country is unique and has good and bad things.

I find it hard to believe that you don’t “believe” in the premise that we need others to thrive and function in society. I am guessing you are part of a community of peers, friends, like minded people and support networks. We all are.

And this is part of what I think has gone very wrong in America today. Its not about swaying anyone, but people seem incapable of actually talking about topics without just holding on a hard position and shutting down discussion. Topics discussed are not about “winning and losing,” “convincing” others. It is about sharing ideas, seeing and accepting differing viewpoints, tolerance and coexistence. This to me is what makes a healthy and thriving society. There are opinions, and there are facts, the two are no longer differentiated.

Its very easy to demonize others, shut them down, reject them and simply hold ideas and positions without examining or deepening why we hold them.
  • Logged
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

F
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 1260
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#128: April 21, 2020, 02:09:21 PM
Let me repeat!  I do not want to speak with you on this topic.  I believe in small government.  I do not believe big government is the answer. 

I am mostly here to heal, and support others and find support.  I just don’t want to spend my time this way.  If you do, I’m sure you can debate endlessly online. 

I did not say we do not need others.  We disagree on this topic.  I do not want to waste my day endlessly for no point and will not react if you reply on this topic.

You believe in big government, I do not.  I believe in private enterprise.  Thank you.

Also, you and others are on an international forum putting my country down.  If I got on here and spoke bad about any other country it would not be ok(besides maybe China). 

But several see no harm in bashing the USA on an international forum.  What happens in a family is that publicly you support one another and privately you discuss issues.

Obviously those who live here, but publicly bash this country do not consider it home.
  • Logged
« Last Edit: April 21, 2020, 02:15:50 PM by Finding Joy »
Married 23 years
Husband is 46
Me-42
4 kids 9-18 years old
BD-October 2018-ILYBNIL, wants a divorce, 2 OW at different times.
April 2019 He got an apartment and moved out.
Oct 2019-Apologized for a years worth of monster behavior.  Still wants to start divorce this Spring, is distant, but friendly.  Tries more with kids, but superficial.
2020-He has continued to help out when asked and be polite.  I do think he questions his choices at times.  I do not believe he has OW.
Oct 2020-He wants to get back together.  I am unsure. 
August 2021-.  He has shown very gradual, but consistent progress.  He moved back home.
December 2022-He has been home for 1 1/2 years reconnecting, in the room with me for several months. I now consider us reconciled.
October 2023-After two years home and being the man he should be, I finally fully let him back into my heart.

m
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 967
  • Gender: Male
Re: Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#129: April 21, 2020, 02:12:29 PM
FJ: that is fine, but then why do you keep repeating your position? I didn’t repeat mine and that is not even my position?

I was talking about the inability to discuss things in US. I think we are simply talking past each other.

I wasn’t the one who dragged this topic about politics and beliefs. I am much more interested in discussing Covid information and up to date findings. Hopefully we can get back to that.
  • Logged
« Last Edit: April 21, 2020, 02:14:25 PM by marvin4242 »
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

F
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 1260
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#130: April 21, 2020, 02:22:39 PM
Marvin-The reason these things are not discussed is because truly half of the country believes a completely different way and the other half has an opposite opinion with very little common ground.  It is incredibly divisive and just like you and I are both coming from a completely different starting place, so are the two sides of the aisle here.  If we discuss these things with people who are not like minded, trust me, we would struggle to then work with them afterwards.
  • Logged
Married 23 years
Husband is 46
Me-42
4 kids 9-18 years old
BD-October 2018-ILYBNIL, wants a divorce, 2 OW at different times.
April 2019 He got an apartment and moved out.
Oct 2019-Apologized for a years worth of monster behavior.  Still wants to start divorce this Spring, is distant, but friendly.  Tries more with kids, but superficial.
2020-He has continued to help out when asked and be polite.  I do think he questions his choices at times.  I do not believe he has OW.
Oct 2020-He wants to get back together.  I am unsure. 
August 2021-.  He has shown very gradual, but consistent progress.  He moved back home.
December 2022-He has been home for 1 1/2 years reconnecting, in the room with me for several months. I now consider us reconciled.
October 2023-After two years home and being the man he should be, I finally fully let him back into my heart.

F
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 1260
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#131: April 21, 2020, 02:26:14 PM
NAS!  What troubles you?  My sarcasm with a wink.  Half of our country wants to live off of the other half!  Believes they should get handed everything in life.  That was my implication.  I stand by it.

Have a nice day!
  • Logged
Married 23 years
Husband is 46
Me-42
4 kids 9-18 years old
BD-October 2018-ILYBNIL, wants a divorce, 2 OW at different times.
April 2019 He got an apartment and moved out.
Oct 2019-Apologized for a years worth of monster behavior.  Still wants to start divorce this Spring, is distant, but friendly.  Tries more with kids, but superficial.
2020-He has continued to help out when asked and be polite.  I do think he questions his choices at times.  I do not believe he has OW.
Oct 2020-He wants to get back together.  I am unsure. 
August 2021-.  He has shown very gradual, but consistent progress.  He moved back home.
December 2022-He has been home for 1 1/2 years reconnecting, in the room with me for several months. I now consider us reconciled.
October 2023-After two years home and being the man he should be, I finally fully let him back into my heart.

F
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 1260
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#132: April 21, 2020, 02:38:28 PM
I have decided to stay off of this discussion from this point on.

Let me say, This has become a post that is bashing my country.  I absolutely am aggravated at the things being said.

XYZ, NAS, you guys said we should stay home?  So shouldn’t everyone stay home?  Let me make it clear, I agree with Trumps policies, but he as a person is something else entirely.  He has every right to stop immigration temporarily, he did it because we have a shortage of jobs now, not because of xenophobia.

Also, if people are going to come over here, become a citizen and then get on an international forum bashing our country, we maybe need to make sure new citizens have some loyalty before allowing them in to begin with.

Xyz, you just called the US president a dictator.  Seriously!  I find this entire post incredibly insulting.

By the way, if you could all list your home country, I can do some digging and start a few topics bashing your home.  I’m pretty sure suddenly you will understand my frustration.
  • Logged
Married 23 years
Husband is 46
Me-42
4 kids 9-18 years old
BD-October 2018-ILYBNIL, wants a divorce, 2 OW at different times.
April 2019 He got an apartment and moved out.
Oct 2019-Apologized for a years worth of monster behavior.  Still wants to start divorce this Spring, is distant, but friendly.  Tries more with kids, but superficial.
2020-He has continued to help out when asked and be polite.  I do think he questions his choices at times.  I do not believe he has OW.
Oct 2020-He wants to get back together.  I am unsure. 
August 2021-.  He has shown very gradual, but consistent progress.  He moved back home.
December 2022-He has been home for 1 1/2 years reconnecting, in the room with me for several months. I now consider us reconciled.
October 2023-After two years home and being the man he should be, I finally fully let him back into my heart.

F
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 1260
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#133: April 21, 2020, 02:50:39 PM
My Brain, I’m sorry I forgot to reply!

Absolutely!  There are ways around all of this.  Many of us currently pay into a public school system we are unhappy with. 

The answer is attribute the tax dollar to the individual child and let the parent chose where they go. 
Or as another option, I do prefer the first, the public school system in my view could be reduced to a safety net.  This would mean the greater public foots the bill for the poor.  Then the tax liability is lower and people can chose a school for their children because all of their money is not going to taxes.

Both of these options would mean only the best schools survive and of course scholarships at private schools are always available to the poor for option b.

My opinion as a school choice advocate for 15 years.

Florida is number 1 in school choice.  They actually have a totally different system.  They have school choice for special needs, the poor and the middle class.  Businesses donate and get a right off.  A dollar amount is assigned to the child if they qualify and they can pick their school.

We live on base and the schools are horrible. So for many public schools are not viable!

  • Logged
« Last Edit: April 21, 2020, 03:04:54 PM by Finding Joy »
Married 23 years
Husband is 46
Me-42
4 kids 9-18 years old
BD-October 2018-ILYBNIL, wants a divorce, 2 OW at different times.
April 2019 He got an apartment and moved out.
Oct 2019-Apologized for a years worth of monster behavior.  Still wants to start divorce this Spring, is distant, but friendly.  Tries more with kids, but superficial.
2020-He has continued to help out when asked and be polite.  I do think he questions his choices at times.  I do not believe he has OW.
Oct 2020-He wants to get back together.  I am unsure. 
August 2021-.  He has shown very gradual, but consistent progress.  He moved back home.
December 2022-He has been home for 1 1/2 years reconnecting, in the room with me for several months. I now consider us reconciled.
October 2023-After two years home and being the man he should be, I finally fully let him back into my heart.

M
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 6859
  • Gender: Male
Re: Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#134: April 21, 2020, 03:14:55 PM
I'm not a Native American but my family's roots in this country go back to the 1850s so I hope I will be allowed to mention one of this country's problems without it being considered bashing.

FJ has made a good point about the public school system in the USA. There are huge inequities between school districts and that's just wrong. Every child in this country deserves to have access to a quality education and we're hurting ourselves by not providing it because we're limiting those children's potential to become informed and productive citizens. In that respect I can understand FJ's concerns about the public schools but I'm not sure those inequities are only found in the United States. I'll just say that I wish that every child of both genders everywhere in the world had access to a quality, unbiased education and leave it at that since I don't know what this topic has to do with Covid-19.

Speaking of the 1850s, I wonder if the level of polarization in this country back then was any where near the level we seem to be experiencing today.
  • Logged

N
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 887
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#135: April 21, 2020, 03:35:10 PM
Well in better news, amidst the sorry state of our UK government’s inadequate  efforts, the BBC Bitesize education service has put together an entire term’s worth of school Lessons to support parents  homeschooling and so we  have Sir David Attenborough and Prof Brian Cox guest teaching !  Ed Balls, a former Chancellor of the Exchequer is teaching Maths  And some nice footballer is teaching European languages I believe.

Time for me to go back to school I think!
  • Logged
« Last Edit: April 21, 2020, 03:36:25 PM by Nerissa »

W
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 5664
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#136: April 21, 2020, 03:38:55 PM
Oh it was much worse in 1850. The Compromise of 1850 established which new territories, acquired via Mexico as spoils for our victory during the Mexican-American War in 1848, were to be admitted as slave or free.

Yea I think there is no comparison as we were heading to the American Civil War. Bleeding Kansas. Fugitive Slave Act. Dread Scott Decision.

U.S. Senator Charles Sumner being almost beaten to death with a cane on the U.S. Senate floor by a South Carolina Congressman in 1856.

Yea no comparison at all. Could that ever happen to Chuckie Schumer. Nah, I think he is safe.   :o

Unless we are heading to another American Civil War. I think there is simply no comparison at all in American History. Period.

Now if you want to throw in Native Americans into the mix, The Trail of Tears encompassed 1830-1850. That was the forcible removal of Native Americans from the Southeastern United States.

The U.S. government also gave them the nice departing package of smallpox infected blankets.

Yep. I vote 1850's were way worse.
  • Logged

m
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 967
  • Gender: Male
Re: Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#137: April 21, 2020, 03:47:17 PM
I am still confused honestly. The people who started politicizing this topic are upset that the topic has become, well, politicized? That everyone else doesn’t just roll over and “accept” factually incorrect statements? Or doesn’t let slide attacks on differing opinions? Or on immigrants?

FJ your last posts are beyond offensive. I am an immigrant who provides jobs for over 50 people, quite a few of them veterans. If I wasn’t “allowed in” as you say three companies would not exist. And I did take an oath of loyalty, but that is not the same as blind obedience. And yes a President who keeps saying he has “absolute power” is pretty much saying he is a dictator. So what is so surprising?

FJ critical analysis is not bashing. Flag waving blindly is not patriotism. I think you are confusing pointing to flaws as being unpatriotic. Btw it ithe duty of citizens of a country to comment on their weaknesses. As an American I have every right and even responsibility to point to our flaws and a duty to try to make them better.

My point was that people even with very differing views should be able to have civil conversations, share viewpoints, differ respectful and factually present ideas. When did this become such a charged and sensitive thing?
  • Logged
« Last Edit: April 21, 2020, 03:52:04 PM by marvin4242 »
No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

F
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 1260
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#138: April 21, 2020, 04:01:54 PM
Marvin!  Again you twist my words, I am not anti immigration.  This is why I cannot discuss this with you.  We are not speaking the same language.  We do not understand where the other is coming from.

My point was, this is not a national forum, but international.  If you want to bash our country do it in house.  You came over to a country that has endless opportunities and now internationally complain.  I am also beyond offended at every post you have written to me undermining, belittling, and making it out that your information is correct and mine is false.  This is why I do not wish to interact with you particularly.  Feel free to debate with others!  Also, I am not the original person who made this political.  I kept reading people bash our leadership and that’s when I got on. 

Thank you.
  • Logged
« Last Edit: April 21, 2020, 04:11:36 PM by Finding Joy »
Married 23 years
Husband is 46
Me-42
4 kids 9-18 years old
BD-October 2018-ILYBNIL, wants a divorce, 2 OW at different times.
April 2019 He got an apartment and moved out.
Oct 2019-Apologized for a years worth of monster behavior.  Still wants to start divorce this Spring, is distant, but friendly.  Tries more with kids, but superficial.
2020-He has continued to help out when asked and be polite.  I do think he questions his choices at times.  I do not believe he has OW.
Oct 2020-He wants to get back together.  I am unsure. 
August 2021-.  He has shown very gradual, but consistent progress.  He moved back home.
December 2022-He has been home for 1 1/2 years reconnecting, in the room with me for several months. I now consider us reconciled.
October 2023-After two years home and being the man he should be, I finally fully let him back into my heart.

  • *
  • Mentor
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 12318
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#139: April 21, 2020, 04:02:16 PM
I read some interesting statistics about the role of immigrants in this time of COVID.

"6.3 million immigrants hold jobs that are key to fighting coronavirus

1 in 4 doctors in the US are immigrants
38% of home health aides are immigrants
22% of workers in the US food industry are immigrants
37% of meat processing industry workers are immigrants
35% of crop production workers are immigrants
483,000 immigrants work in grocery stores
69% of California's agricultural workers are immigrants
34% of metro, bus and taxi drivers are immigrants
6 million immigrants work in industries that are laying off large numbers of workers"

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/21/us/immigrants-coronavirus-frontlines/index.html

It is not bashing to seriously look at the inadequacies of a country. To consider ways to make this society a better place.

A term that is used in the medical world and elsewhere is "best practices". It means that you look at the research from around the world on various treatments and ideas and apply those best practices to create a better outcome for patients.

It is not bashing to express different view points, in a respectful and polite manner.

To be told over and over to "take my toys and go home" and to make declarations about my homeland that are not true, that is a problem for me.

The world experts are the ones who are outlining what we must do to save lives, and one of those things is to avoid contact with others. Staying at home unless it is for an essential service or an essential need will save lives.

Protesting in large groups, not at all practicing any kind of distance between protestors, not wearing masks...those individuals are going to spread COVID into the community and cause deaths. Deaths I would prefer to avoid.
  • Logged
« Last Edit: April 21, 2020, 04:07:57 PM by xyzcf »
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

N
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 887
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#140: April 21, 2020, 04:14:20 PM
Marvin!  Again you twist my words, I am not anti immigration.  This is why I cannot discuss this with you.  We are not speaking the same language.  We do not understand where the other is coming from. Thank you.

I’m sorry but  he is right.  A number of your facts about other countries and your own are simply erroneous.  I’ve lived in Washington DC by the way and loved it, and in countries in other continents - all have strengths and weaknesses and we can all
Learn from difference without becoming over invested . 

It is just silly to tell people to ‘go home’. That’s what the protesting woman in the car being held up by a nurse shouted.: ‘Go to China’ .im sure you don’t mean it and I’m  sure it doesn’t chime with your Christian beliefs, or your approach to your profession as a teacher.
  • Logged

M
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 3809
  • Gender: Female
Re: Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#141: April 21, 2020, 04:42:37 PM
Hi Nas, lovely to hear from you. I, like many others I'm sure, have missed hearing from you on the forum. Glad you are safe.

If anyone doesn't know yet, I'm from Italy.

I believe in public schools in general. That means my tax money, too, being used for public education.  I don't consider my tax money to be mine personally. When we live in a society we must contribute. As far as I'm concerned, the taxes I pay are for my society in general, including me, and then the government currently democratically voted in, will decide what is best for the common good.

In Italy we have the opposite situation to the US. State schools, with their old computers, old desks, blotched walls, have higher academic standards than private schools. Here, private schools are considered to be for people who have 'stupid' kids who are no good at school and need extra help to make it. Wealthy people with clever kids, send them to the public schools.

However, for discussion sake, I'm going to talk about private institutions versus public ones. I realize that public funding won't be able to provide the kind of facilities that private schools will, whether it be equipped labs, or the amount of attention the staff can provide. However, I still feel that education should be free (just my opinion here) right through university. The way I see it, intelligence is a gift that covers all races and classes. Intelligence is something you are born with. The cure to cancer could come from the poorest public housing estate. If we don't provide the opportunity for the talented person to develop their skills, we will be doing all of us a disservice. I do believe that the strength of a country is in the education of its population. 

I am not left or right wing. I have some principles, some rights I believe everyone should have and that is that in the western world, with all our money, our claimed culture, the least we can do is provide for our fellow men at least as far as education and health care goes. For me these are the two number 1 musts if I were to vote for a certain political party. In Europe, both the right and the left believe in these two rights so I'm lucky. I can then look at the other policies and vote according to my needs.

I have well off friends and family who say that anyone can gain privileges such as private schools, etc if only they worked hard. As if they did something better than the rest who struggle to reach the end of the month, who can't sleep at night because they don't know how to tell their gifted child that there is no money to send them to university. Pretty much everyone works hard. A builder works really hard, a nurse works really hard but still these people struggle to pay their bills, and are not privy to the options that people with means have. I don't like it when I hear successful people speak as if  there was something wiser about them or that they were more responsible. This insinuates that those who struggle financially are lazy. I'm a capitalist at heart; I want to know that I can chase a dream if I should want to. When I see my very wealthy friends, I am not jealous, I'm happy for them and it gives me drive. However, there are plenty of times that I have struggled financially and that is not because I didn't work hard, didn't try, bought Gucci handbags with my salary instead of paying my bills, or that there is anything lesser about me.

In fact what I can't understand, with all the wealth there is in the world, is that we can't take care of people with no food or water or basic medicine that we do have cures for simply because they can't afford it. When I hear of billionaires who divorce and share net worths of 100s of billions between spouses, I think what have we become? How much does one person really need? Don't tell me these people make many charitable contributions, because those are usually tax right offs, so they would have had to have spent the money anyway, just that donating feels better.

Sorry, I'm getting off topic and I don't want to offend anyone personally. I'm just speaking about my own values and my own feelings. It's easy in a personal crisis to lash out and find the bad guy that way we can fix the situation. I feel we must unite, strength in numbers as the saying goes. I feel that if our states/governments had had extra money to have had enough hospital beds, ICU units, staff, protective equipment, buy covid tests, money to help people forced at home, to help businesses forced to stop, then facing an unforeseen world crisis would be doable. I guess it's similar to a family putting away some money for a rainy day. That means taking away some of the family's fun money for the unforeseen.
  • Logged
Married 1989, together since 1984 
BD May 2014,
D26, D23, S16
OW Physical Affair same one. He and she said she turned 34 the month of BD. She turned 52 this year.

  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 1315
  • Gender: Female
Re: Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#142: April 21, 2020, 04:59:36 PM
Oh!  Washington DC!  I've lived all over including the Middle East, Russia, Europe, and Africa (Egypt).  When still married we spent 6 weeks a year in DC and I lived it, some of my fondest memories of my marriage were in DC.  But, if I had to pick a state to live in, hands down, I'd move back to Alabama in a second.  Well, if I had a job there, naturally.  The weather, the landscape, the people, the history, the life style, and I mustn't forget the food.  Ex and I were very happy there.  Fond memories, even when I was told often, Bless your heart, girl.  🙄

Now as to Covid, each day my state and my county prints various number totals.  Our totals are running higher in younger people than older.  And the illness is seeming to last about 5 days, most not being terribly sick, most not hospitalized.  Does this mean anything particular?  I doubt it.  Our recovered 93 year old said she just kept moving so her lungs stayed clearer and she sat out in the sun in her yard.  I'm not sure that means anything either, but she's become quite the local celebrity. 

I'm willing to openly state my family is from Russia.  I spoke Russian before I learned English. Russia offers a vast array of openings for bashing being a country lacking adequate rule of law, transparency, xenophobia, generally poor and at best uneven medical services, high crime, not exactly a democratic government, and lacks many rights.  It's also a country of deep history, brilliant art, beautiful museums, rich in natural resources, and promotes education particularly science and mathematics as well as music, ballet, art, and literature.  Sports, of course.  Good and bad. 

All counties have positives and some negatives. Regionally this country is so divided.  As well as rural vs urban, income, education.  I had to laugh at Treasur note about Ames, Iowa.  Quite familiar I became living here with brands of seed corn and the logo of the ear of corn with wings.

I wonder if the divide has become too big to bridge.  Is it true that all parties are speaking different languages?  When a pandemic can't unify people, it boggles the mind what it would take to create unity. 

Lp
  • Logged
if people won’t listen to you, there’s no point in talking to people. If they won’t listen, you’re just banging your head against a wall.

Sadly Ive used up all the time I had allotted to spend banging my head on the wall

F
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 1260
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#143: April 21, 2020, 04:59:50 PM
XYZ, When you insinuate we now have a dictatorship I disagree about that being polite.  Also, we have amazing immigrants that help us in many ways!  I have many immigrant friends and people who did our lawn, housework etc.

That said, we ourselves are in a crises(the US).  Our economy is crashing.  So It’s at least understandable to me that we don’t want more people coming in until we get the people here back to work, school, fed, well.

It’s like being in ICU and adopting someone.  Just not the right timing.

This kind of thing hits a nerve because we are a military family.  In other words, my husband went over and fought for your right to bash a country that took you in.  That is when he lost it and broke.  I lost my husband, even if he comes home, the man I knew is gone.

So you have a right, I just personally do not believe complaining or calling our President a dictator on an international forum is very loyal to those who fought for your right to say anything you want.

You are free.  You can say anything and it came at a high price to people like me, my kids, my husband.
  • Logged
Married 23 years
Husband is 46
Me-42
4 kids 9-18 years old
BD-October 2018-ILYBNIL, wants a divorce, 2 OW at different times.
April 2019 He got an apartment and moved out.
Oct 2019-Apologized for a years worth of monster behavior.  Still wants to start divorce this Spring, is distant, but friendly.  Tries more with kids, but superficial.
2020-He has continued to help out when asked and be polite.  I do think he questions his choices at times.  I do not believe he has OW.
Oct 2020-He wants to get back together.  I am unsure. 
August 2021-.  He has shown very gradual, but consistent progress.  He moved back home.
December 2022-He has been home for 1 1/2 years reconnecting, in the room with me for several months. I now consider us reconciled.
October 2023-After two years home and being the man he should be, I finally fully let him back into my heart.

  • *
  • Mentor
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 12318
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#144: April 21, 2020, 05:07:56 PM
Well FJ that is one thing we have in common for I too come from a military family and I totally understand their sacrifice as they fought for my freedom.

Once again, you throw at me something that you think makes you "better" without having a clue what my family's background is.
  • Logged
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

F
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 1260
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#145: April 21, 2020, 05:09:22 PM
Nerissa,

Actually, I do mean what I say, if you are an immigrant and want to come to this nation and then get on international forum and bash it by calling our president a dictator and/or saying we should run our country differently.  Then I prefer you make room for someone who actually does want to live in this country.  Perhaps some persecuted Jews, Christians or Chinese Muslims!

People want to come over and fundamentally remake the country into a more government centered one.  No thank you.  I don’t like the way they run what they already run!

All I have really said is I believe in small government and individual responsibility and have not stopped being attacked for supporting my country.

Though the people who have bashed my home country have not even gotten a blink!


  • Logged
« Last Edit: April 21, 2020, 05:37:58 PM by Finding Joy »
Married 23 years
Husband is 46
Me-42
4 kids 9-18 years old
BD-October 2018-ILYBNIL, wants a divorce, 2 OW at different times.
April 2019 He got an apartment and moved out.
Oct 2019-Apologized for a years worth of monster behavior.  Still wants to start divorce this Spring, is distant, but friendly.  Tries more with kids, but superficial.
2020-He has continued to help out when asked and be polite.  I do think he questions his choices at times.  I do not believe he has OW.
Oct 2020-He wants to get back together.  I am unsure. 
August 2021-.  He has shown very gradual, but consistent progress.  He moved back home.
December 2022-He has been home for 1 1/2 years reconnecting, in the room with me for several months. I now consider us reconciled.
October 2023-After two years home and being the man he should be, I finally fully let him back into my heart.

F
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 1260
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#146: April 21, 2020, 05:10:49 PM
Xyz, I don’t understand.  Actually I was explaining why you bashing my home country that you chose to live in offensive.
  • Logged
Married 23 years
Husband is 46
Me-42
4 kids 9-18 years old
BD-October 2018-ILYBNIL, wants a divorce, 2 OW at different times.
April 2019 He got an apartment and moved out.
Oct 2019-Apologized for a years worth of monster behavior.  Still wants to start divorce this Spring, is distant, but friendly.  Tries more with kids, but superficial.
2020-He has continued to help out when asked and be polite.  I do think he questions his choices at times.  I do not believe he has OW.
Oct 2020-He wants to get back together.  I am unsure. 
August 2021-.  He has shown very gradual, but consistent progress.  He moved back home.
December 2022-He has been home for 1 1/2 years reconnecting, in the room with me for several months. I now consider us reconciled.
October 2023-After two years home and being the man he should be, I finally fully let him back into my heart.

  • *
  • Mentor
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 12318
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#147: April 21, 2020, 05:15:01 PM
I will reiiterate what I wrote previously:

"It is not bashing to seriously look at the inadequacies of a country. To consider ways to make this society a better place.

A term that is used in the medical world and elsewhere is "best practices". It means that you look at the research from around the world on various treatments and ideas and apply those best practices to create a better outcome for patients.

It is not bashing to express different view points, in a respectful and polite manner."

  • Logged
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

F
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 1260
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#148: April 21, 2020, 05:16:20 PM
Milly!
Hi!  Thank you for keeping the conversation civil!  I do feel very attacked. 

I understand your sentiments.  Everyone should have the right to an education!  School vouchers would just assign the tax dollars to the individual child.  So then schools compete for those tax dollars.

Actually it would benefit the poor the most and those of us who pay taxes and then pay for a decent school could just pay once.

I personally believe in keeping taxes low and keeping the government small because they are ineffective in my view on most things.
  • Logged
Married 23 years
Husband is 46
Me-42
4 kids 9-18 years old
BD-October 2018-ILYBNIL, wants a divorce, 2 OW at different times.
April 2019 He got an apartment and moved out.
Oct 2019-Apologized for a years worth of monster behavior.  Still wants to start divorce this Spring, is distant, but friendly.  Tries more with kids, but superficial.
2020-He has continued to help out when asked and be polite.  I do think he questions his choices at times.  I do not believe he has OW.
Oct 2020-He wants to get back together.  I am unsure. 
August 2021-.  He has shown very gradual, but consistent progress.  He moved back home.
December 2022-He has been home for 1 1/2 years reconnecting, in the room with me for several months. I now consider us reconciled.
October 2023-After two years home and being the man he should be, I finally fully let him back into my heart.

F
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 1260
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#149: April 21, 2020, 05:19:12 PM
XYZ, Have a good evening!
  • Logged
Married 23 years
Husband is 46
Me-42
4 kids 9-18 years old
BD-October 2018-ILYBNIL, wants a divorce, 2 OW at different times.
April 2019 He got an apartment and moved out.
Oct 2019-Apologized for a years worth of monster behavior.  Still wants to start divorce this Spring, is distant, but friendly.  Tries more with kids, but superficial.
2020-He has continued to help out when asked and be polite.  I do think he questions his choices at times.  I do not believe he has OW.
Oct 2020-He wants to get back together.  I am unsure. 
August 2021-.  He has shown very gradual, but consistent progress.  He moved back home.
December 2022-He has been home for 1 1/2 years reconnecting, in the room with me for several months. I now consider us reconciled.
October 2023-After two years home and being the man he should be, I finally fully let him back into my heart.

N
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 887
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#150: April 21, 2020, 05:41:51 PM
Quote
Now as to Covid, each day my state and my county prints various number totals.  Our totals are running higher in younger people than older.  And the illness is seeming to last about 5 days, most not being terribly sick, most not hospitalized.  Does this mean anything particular?  I doubt it.  Our recovered 93 year old said she just kept moving so her lungs stayed clearer and she sat out in the sun in her yard.  I'm not sure that means anything either, but she's become quite the local celebrity. 

I don’t know. But I’ve written elsewhere that I was studying online at the weekend with some physicians who said they were encountering episodes of psychosis in hospitalised COVID patients. 

And then I’ve just seen a headline in the WSJ.  (Article behind paywall)
Quote
“Coronavirus Ravages the Lungs. It Also Affects the Brain.
As Covid-19 cases mount, doctors are seeing patients who are experiencing symptoms like seizures, hallucinations and loss of smell and taste”

Early on in this, I felt  relaxed for myself.  My parents and aunts and uncles live in the countryside and are kept an eye on by my brother and cousins.  My children are not of vulnerable ages and I’m fit and not quite in the at risk age group.  I’ve signed up for volunteering with the NHS and a local group but I have become more concerned because those I know who have had it at my age are recently over it and are very wiped out. They don’t know yet if there will be lasting problems, but lung scarring and subsequent reduced lung capacity has always been noted as an after effect.  That isn’t a nice prospect.  I’m not too thrilled either about the thought of potential neurological effects, post infection.

It’s fine while in lockdown - the rules about contact are clear and I can be in control of myself for the time being.  When it is relaxed I’ll need to make decisions daily about what I do, who I see and where I go and how.  I think that may become very wearing and I think the effects of deciding which friends have been able to be cautious about their movements and contacts and which have not is going to be quite stressful.


  • Logged

  • *
  • Mentor
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 12318
  • Gender: Female
Re: COVID-19, Coronavirus. Its real, stay safe! #2
#151: April 21, 2020, 05:43:24 PM
  • Logged
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

 

Legal Disclaimer

The information contained within The Hero's Spouse website family (www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com, http://theherosspouse.com and associated subdomains), (collectively 'website') is provided as general information and is not intended to be a substitute for professional legal, medical or mental health advice or treatment for specific medical conditions. The Hero's Spouse cannot be held responsible for the use of the information provided. The Hero's Spouse recommends that you consult a trained medical or mental health professional before making any decision regarding treatment of yourself or others. The Hero's Spouse recommends that you consult a legal professional for specific legal advice.

Any information, stories, examples, articles, or testimonials on this website do not constitute a guarantee, or prediction regarding the outcome of an individual situation. Reading and/or posting at this website does not constitute a professional relationship between you and the website author, volunteer moderators or mentors or other community members. The moderators and mentors are peer-volunteers, and not functioning in a professional capacity and are therefore offering support and advice based solely upon their own experience and not upon legal, medical, or mental health training.